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jloome
09-21-2012, 01:58 AM
Or a few major categories, anyway. Interesting to note how close the two managers' results are.

WINTER – Last 22 Games

ATTEMPTS – 13.6 /game
AGAINST – 13.19/game
TFC POSSESSION – 44.74%
PASS RATE – 71%
PASS RATE AGAINST – 75.5%
GOALS FOR – 27
GOALS AGAINST – 43
PTS 23

MARINER – First 22 Games

ATTEMPTS – 11.275/game
AGAINST – 14.375/game
TFC POSSESSION – 40.95%
PASS RATE – 69.375%
PASS RATE AGAINST – 79.44%
GOALS FOR – 28
GOALS AGAINST – 40
PTS 22

EDIT: I would note Mariner's goals for and against are skewed somewhat by the crushing 28-shot, 5-1 victory over the pathetically weak CD Aguila from Panama(?) if I recall.

denime
09-21-2012, 05:39 AM
THANKS!!!


Can this be forwarded to some media outlets,you know the one that might care about TFC?

Fort York Redcoat
09-21-2012, 06:42 AM
Is this the short term progress we sacrificed a plan for?

Oldtimer
09-21-2012, 07:22 AM
Good analysis Jeremy. It shows the biggest problem is the players Mariner signed.


On another topic...
I know you're really dedicated, but judging by the posting time, isn't it time to get some sleep? :D

Ageroo
09-21-2012, 07:29 AM
Is this the short term progress we sacrificed a plan for?

Game, Set, Match..........

TOBOR !
09-21-2012, 07:39 AM
The difference that you don't see (my feeling anyway) is that Winter's stats are for a team on the way up, while Mariner's are for a team on the way down.

This might be borne out if the data could be plotted to a game by game graph and then compared.

http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/19954646/2/stock-illustration-19954646-climb-up-and-down-graph.jpg

narduch
09-21-2012, 07:40 AM
Personally I think the Mariner v Winter comparisons are fleeting and not necessary at this point.

We need to compart Mariner to the rest of the league, not one of the league's worst managers ever.

Beach_Red
09-21-2012, 08:38 AM
Good analysis Jeremy. It shows the biggest problem is the players Mariner signed.



It's amazing how this organization really seems to think it's easy to sign soccer players to an MLS team.

Greatest Ripoff
09-21-2012, 08:39 AM
Can someone send this to Kurt Larson and people as CSN? I don't know why both had no problems shitting on Winter but have had nothing but praise for Mariner.

narduch
09-21-2012, 08:43 AM
Can someone send this to Kurt Larson and people as CSN? I don't know why both had no problems shitting on Winter but have had nothing but praise for Mariner.

Their excuse will be that these are still Winter's players and that Mariner wasn't invovled in selecting them. Or that he deserves another transfer window.

mdc 77
09-21-2012, 08:44 AM
I don't get the constant comparison either, both managers have shown poor results, actually thats an understatement Winter's stats in MLS play is monumentally bad and Mariner as a manager in his life is just as poor. Incredible really that both could be this bad.

cmonyoureds
09-21-2012, 08:45 AM
Personally I think the Mariner v Winter comparisons are fleeting and not necessary at this point.We need to compart Mariner to the rest of the league, not one of the league's worst managers ever.

Cool, let's do that.

HE'S DEAD LAST. BOTTOM OF PILE. LOOKING UP AT EVERYONE ELSE. WINLESS IN 9.

Any other comparisons you need made? :drinking:

Ageroo
09-21-2012, 09:05 AM
Can someone send this to Kurt Larson and people as CSN? I don't know why both had no problems shitting on Winter but have had nothing but praise for Mariner.

I just responded on Twitter to one of Larson's tweets....He was saying Mariner on three months on the job......I responded back saying three months as manager, but Mariner been here for a while. I said Mariner wasn't just twiddling his thumbs where Larson promptly replied back saying that "Actually, ya he did. But Ive been over this before"

Suds
09-21-2012, 09:38 AM
I just responded on Twitter to one of Larson's tweets....He was saying Mariner on three months on the job......I responded back saying three months as manager, but Mariner been here for a while. I said Mariner wasn't just twiddling his thumbs where Larson promptly replied back saying that "Actually, ya he did. But Ive been over this before"

So what Larson's saying is, Mariner is the type of person who will just sit back and collect a paycheck rather than have some self worth and do what he can to benefit the club in any way possible while he was under contract?

With that kind of backing I'd tell my mouth-pieces in the media to shut the hell up.

jabbronies
09-21-2012, 09:46 AM
So what Larson's saying is, Mariner is the type of person who will just sit back and collect a paycheck rather than have some self worth and do what he can to benefit the club in any way possible while he was under contract?

With that kind of backing I'd tell my mouth-pieces in the media to shut the hell up.

Larson has defiantly crossed that line between reporter and team. He is more friend to the team than reporter.
I put more faith into what Molinaro has to say. He doesn't butter the truth as much.

Wull
09-21-2012, 09:46 AM
So what Larson's saying is, Mariner is the type of person who will just sit back and collect a paycheck rather than have some self worth and do what he can to benefit the club in any way possible while he was under contract?

With that kind of backing I'd tell my mouth-pieces in the media to shut the hell up.

He has a few of them, de vos, larson and molinaro have gone down in my estimation since he took over

TFC_Allez
09-21-2012, 09:51 AM
The stats show that the results from both managers are very similar...similarly garbage. The difference between the 2 managers is that one had a vision and the other refers to soccer at TFC as No Frills. That's the part that disgusts me. The 4 wins that happened under Mariner as manager happened because Winter's team was FINALLY healthy and playing together. The win against Aguila shouldn't even be considered. I could've coached that team to a win over the El Salvadorians.

To further Fort York Redcoat's point, from my understanding of it...under Winter, the results were going to start coming very soon, because at least the guy had a vision. His stubbornness when it came to formations and systems was at least making the games interesting, and it seemed at the time that we were just a piece or two away from getting the ball rolling. However, it seemed as if the players had given up on him simply because they were demoralized. After being a semi-finalist in the CCL and then setting a league record for most losses in a row, who could blame them? Now, under Mariner, I find it extremely difficult to see a win at anytime in our future...even beating CD Aguila will be difficult with this team in this form. Blame it on injuries again and whatever else you want...but this team is most definitely in a downward spiral...which is interesting because even though we went 0-9 to start the season, there was at least some glimpse into the future that we would soon be on the up and up. This franchise gave up on a future in an attempt to satisfy the present. Now that the present is just as shitty, the future looks even darker under Mariner. You can talk about hope and make a point to "just give him time to put his mark on the team"...but the man and the system that should've been given the time to adjust was Winter.

jloome
09-21-2012, 10:42 AM
Good analysis Jeremy. It shows the biggest problem is the players Mariner signed.


On another topic...
I know you're really dedicated, but judging by the posting time, isn't it time to get some sleep? :D

Needed an exercise for three or four hours that wasn't one of my projects, LOL

Cripes, that took longer than I expected.

TOBOR !
09-21-2012, 10:53 AM
The stats show that the results from both managers are very similar...similarly garbage. The difference between the 2 managers is that one had a vision and the other refers to soccer at TFC as No Frills. That's the part that disgusts me. The 4 wins that happened under Mariner as manager happened because Winter's team was FINALLY healthy and playing together. The win against Aguila shouldn't even be considered. I could've coached that team to a win over the El Salvadorians.

To further Fort York Redcoat's point, from my understanding of it...under Winter, the results were going to start coming very soon, because at least the guy had a vision. His stubbornness when it came to formations and systems was at least making the games interesting, and it seemed at the time that we were just a piece or two away from getting the ball rolling. However, it seemed as if the players had given up on him simply because they were demoralized. After being a semi-finalist in the CCL and then setting a league record for most losses in a row, who could blame them? Now, under Mariner, I find it extremely difficult to see a win at anytime in our future...even beating CD Aguila will be difficult with this team in this form. Blame it on injuries again and whatever else you want...but this team is most definitely in a downward spiral...which is interesting because even though we went 0-9 to start the season, there was at least some glimpse into the future that we would soon be on the up and up. This franchise gave up on a future in an attempt to satisfy the present. Now that the present is just as shitty, the future looks even darker under Mariner. You can talk about hope and make a point to "just give him time to put his mark on the team"...but the man and the system that should've been given the time to adjust was Winter.

Simply put, TFC abandoned team and player development for results, and now we aren't getting those and the future looks bleak.

What a dark chapter this is.

Ultra & Proud
09-21-2012, 11:00 AM
What should be noted and what will be most telling for next season is a roster comparison.

Winter had a full line up of what he wanted at the end of last season and the start of this one. Not many injuries. Also had more time to train and teach the players (during our extended pre-season).

Mariner has a rash of injuries and he jettisoned a lot of the former players on the roster and now has a MUCH worse line up that Winter ever had. Now people will go on about not improving the team immediately, although by the numbers that matter the most say he did somewhat. However, unlike past regimes, he is making us suffer now and setting us up to be able to do something cap-wise over the break and is actually looking forward instead of doing knee jerk signings for short term gains (like last summers window).

Probably the best line is this whole thread was that both managers are roughly the same (ie. shite) stats wise but it'd be hard to say that the quality of the two rosters is even close.


Simply put, TFC abandoned team and player development for results, and now we aren't getting those and the future looks bleak.

Disagree. Team and player development were proven to not be feasible with what you can get with MLS, non-DP money and we had one and a half years of pure crap to see that. Even Winter said the Academy was where that development would be shown and come from eventually and it still is. Right now I think the plan was to build a competitive base (ie. not getting blown out) and form some structure defensively and free up cap space for next year. I expect lots of the players we see now to be gone. With the Academy said to be close to producing MLS ready products and what hopefully is a fairly good amount of cap space, I would say the future looks good. That being said I still say Mariner will for sure be gone by the end of next season, good results or not, and Dichio will be stepping in.

ag futbol
09-21-2012, 11:09 AM
Probably the best line is this whole thread was that both managers are roughly the same (ie. shite) stats wise but it'd be hard to say that the quality of the two rosters is even close.

Sounds like you're using creative license. He's made the roster worse by his own design.

Beach_Red
09-21-2012, 11:14 AM
Disagree. Team and player development were proven to not be feasible with what you can get with MLS, non-DP money and we had one and a half years of pure crap to see that. Even Winter said the Academy was where that development would be shown and come from eventually and it still is. Right now I think the plan was to build a competitive base (ie. not getting blown out) and form some structure defensively and free up cap space for next year. I expect lots of the players we see now to be gone. With the Academy said to be close to producing MLS ready products and what hopefully is a fairly good amount of cap space, I would say the future looks good. That being said I still say Mariner will for sure be gone by the end of next season, good results or not, and Dichio will be stepping in.

Well, with what the people TFC put in charge could get with MLS, non-DP money. Until they hire the right people to run the team the plan makes no difference. Other teams can find those players.

jabbronies
09-21-2012, 11:25 AM
Well, with what the people TFC put in charge could get with MLS, non-DP money. Until they hire the right people to run the team the plan makes no difference. Other teams can find those players.

Agreed. Not sure why TFC is the special case that can't seem to find anyone, anywhere in the MLS that can work into our first team.
When we do find players (Avila for example), the changing of managers always seems to deem them irrelevant and tosses them aside.

Ultra & Proud
09-21-2012, 11:34 AM
Agreed. Not sure why TFC is the special case that can't seem to find anyone, anywhere in the MLS that can work into our first team.
When we do find players (Avila for example), the changing of managers always seems to deem them irrelevant and tosses them aside.

Tough to find cheap players (ala MLS salary level) that can grasp the Ajax system after playing a certain way their whole careers. No other MLS teams have asked that of their rosters.

And Avila was deemed irrelevant by three managers now including one whose team made it the MLS Cup Final.

Ultra & Proud
09-21-2012, 11:34 AM
Sounds like you're using creative license. He's made the roster worse by his own design.
To free up cap space.

ag futbol
09-21-2012, 11:53 AM
And Avila was deemed irrelevant by three managers now including one whose team made it the MLS Cup Final.
Again, you're stretching things. Avila was basically always the super sub for FCD and he played behind the best player on the team.

He's irrelevant to Mariner, but that's about it. I'm not the biggest fan, but is there any other manager in the league who would start Aron Maund instead?


To free up cap space.
The guys he released were for the most part earning minimal money. He brought in guys who are making similar money who haven't performed as well.

JDG being the one exception, and we're still paying his salary...

Pookie
09-21-2012, 12:18 PM
Personally I think the Mariner v Winter comparisons are fleeting and not necessary at this point.

We need to compart Mariner to the rest of the league, not one of the league's worst managers ever.


Ask and ye shall receive

This is how Mariner's tenure stacks up against the Eastern Conference over the same time frame (ie. from June on)



Team
GP
W
L
D
Points


Chicago
18
11
5
2
35


Sporting KC
19
9
4
6
33


Houston
19
9
4
6
33


Columbus
19
10
6
3
33


NY Red Bulls
19
8
5
6
30


Montreal
20
9
10
1
28


DC United
19
7
7
5
26


Philadelphia
17
5
8
4
19


Toronto
19
4
8
7
19


New England
19
3
9
7
16




... on the plus side, they are meeting Earl's goal to be Top 10 in the Conference ;)

Pookie
09-21-2012, 12:24 PM
Agreed. Not sure why TFC is the special case that can't seem to find anyone, anywhere in the MLS that can work into our first team.
When we do find players (Avila for example), the changing of managers always seems to deem them irrelevant and tosses them aside.

I'm not sure why this is considered to be a mystery. Our roster has US, Canadian and International players on it.

We get our:

- Canadians from the Academy that started less than 2 years ago
- US players from trades, waivers and when we don't trade away Superdraft picks
- International Players from our manager's sources (eg Winter brought in DK, Soolsma and Martinez (2011) from his connections) considering we have limited international scouting

Given that US players make up the bulk of MLS rosters, we are getting other team's cast offs through waivers. Trades have been hit or miss as you are trading either like for like players or using up a Superdraft pick to get them. Keep in mind too that trading is limited in that US teams generally don't want Canadians in return because they count as internationals. Considering that by 2014 we will have traded away the first overall pick 3 times in the 5 years proceeding it, there is no mystery for me. We aren't bringing in enough talent from the primary source that other MLS teams use to stock their rosters.

Wull
09-21-2012, 12:29 PM
Does anyone remember a trade that we actually got the better part of?!

jabbronies
09-21-2012, 12:56 PM
I'm not sure why this is considered to be a mystery. Our roster has US, Canadian and International players on it.

We get our:

- Canadians from the Academy that started less than 2 years ago
- US players from trades, waivers and when we don't trade away Superdraft picks
- International Players from our manager's sources (eg Winter brought in DK, Soolsma and Martinez (2011) from his connections) considering we have limited international scouting

Given that US players make up the bulk of MLS rosters, we are getting other team's cast offs through waivers. Trades have been hit or miss as you are trading either like for like players or using up a Superdraft pick to get them. Keep in mind too that trading is limited in that US teams generally don't want Canadians in return because they count as internationals. Considering that by 2014 we will have traded away the first overall pick 3 times in the 5 years proceeding it, there is no mystery for me. We aren't bringing in enough talent from the primary source that other MLS teams use to stock their rosters.

Ya we know this. read the full thread. It was in response to someone saying that finding non-DP players at MLS restriction level is not feasible. Every other team can do it, why are people making excuses for TFC. What's so special about this team that they can't do what other MLS teams are doing.

Beach-Red pointed to incompetence by those building the roster.

jabbronies
09-21-2012, 01:04 PM
Does anyone remember a trade that we actually got the better part of?!

The trade that brought Dero to TFC.
Got 2nd pick overall in 2009 Superdraft (Sam Cronin) for Ronnie O'Brien
Got Todd Dunivant for Kevin Goldthwaite

Pookie
09-21-2012, 01:05 PM
Does anyone remember a trade that we actually got the better part of?!

I have a piece on that, that will run (Monday?) on Wakingthered.

As a teaser, Brian McBride to Chicago for 1st Round Superdraft Pick (Stefan Frei) and Chad Barrett. I say it because McBride wasn't going anywhere but Chicago so we weren't trading from a position of strength. There are a few others but for the most part, we tend to get hosed on deals.

Ultra & Proud
09-21-2012, 02:06 PM
Again, you're stretching things. Avila was basically always the super sub for FCD and he played behind the best player on the team.

He's irrelevant to Mariner, but that's about it. I'm not the biggest fan, but is there any other manager in the league who would start Aron Maund instead?


The guys he released were for the most part earning minimal money. He brought in guys who are making similar money who haven't performed as well.

JDG being the one exception, and we're still paying his salary...
Avila didn't see many minutes with Winter either. Why would that be? He too stupid to recognize Avila's talent too?

And yeah, he dumped the low earners and cleared Int. Roster spots and brought in players who could be dumped at season's end no problem. Now with the ones on longer contracts I am sure he's waiting for them to expire or buy out. To me it looks like he brought in some players who may have potential but are also potentially disposable players. I see a good roster overhaul going down this off season. At least I hope for one.

lobo
09-21-2012, 02:08 PM
Tough to find cheap players (ala MLS salary level) that can grasp the Ajax system after playing a certain way their whole careers. No other MLS teams have asked that of their rosters.

wrong, again ... the 4-3-3 system is growing in MLS. Dallas and SKC use it very successfully. Hell, in Dallas they switch their system as needed (OMG how do cheap MLS players grasp two systems?). Philly Union use it. NYRB use it. Houston use it. And Portland is moving to the 4-3-3 with their new coach.
(http://www.rednationonline.ca/Articles2012/TatticaCanPortersucceedwith433inMLS.aspx)
the argument that these pro players cannot grasp a new system is ridiculous ... it happens all the time in all kinds of sports ... and what would make you think that every player has only played one way their whole career? these are not house-league youths we are talking about. and they don't all come from the same place.

4-3-3 works in MLS, but we pulled the plug cause it didnt work soon enough, MLSE panicked ... if they had kept their heads strapped on they would have realized they didn't need to throw the baby out with the bath water ... it was an entirely avoidable error ... the essential piece was the plan, the vision, the system ... find another coach to step in to carry the same plan ... but NOOO, we have to implode everything to get a new coach who then proceeds to gut the team and play school yard tactics ... he's had enough time, shown more than enough of his style

now, as you do, feel free to twist and spin this information around to fit your agenda that mariner provides some hope for TFC .... frankly you are clearly in a very small minority, at least on this board, that see anything worthwhile in mariner having control

the majority of us see it as it is, an MLSE short-sighted decision that killed the club's long term plan in favour of short-term gain that has failed, and failed miserably in fact ... and the future is now dark, very dark ... i am stunned that anyone sees any daylight in any of this.

2011 New Vision.
2012 NO vision.
2013 Stumbling blindly.
2014 8th season, 8th coach ... start at square 1 - AGAIN!

jloome
09-21-2012, 02:18 PM
Some people would argue its to get rid of the deadwood he foisted on Winter as director of player development

It would be the height of naïveté to believe winter - a man of no concacaf/s.a. Experience - "discovered" Iro, Aceval, and caicedo without his help.

I suspect mariner is suffering the fallout of his own choices. Even if he does rebuild quickly, there will always be a Mo-like smell to him. But I don't expect it to happen based in his choices so far. Giving him more time is just wasting time, I suspect.

(none of which changes the likelihood much that Winter just wasn't ready.)

lobo
09-21-2012, 02:21 PM
Considering that by 2014 we will have traded away the first overall pick 3 times in the 5 years proceeding it, there is no mystery for me. We aren't bringing in enough talent from the primary source that other MLS teams use to stock their rosters.

i see what you did there, lol

ouderwien
09-21-2012, 02:34 PM
Is this the short term progress we sacrificed a plan for?

I just want to repeat this.

v00d00daddy
09-21-2012, 02:53 PM
Winter had a full line up of what he wanted at the end of last season and the start of this one. Not many injuries. Also had more time to train and teach the players (during our extended pre-season).

Mariner has a rash of injuries and he jettisoned a lot of the former players on the roster and now has a MUCH worse line up that Winter ever had. Now people will go on about not improving the team immediately, although by the numbers that matter the most say he did somewhat. However, unlike past regimes, he is making us suffer now and setting us up to be able to do something cap-wise over the break and is actually looking forward instead of doing knee jerk signings for short term gains (like last summers window).

Sorry but you remember things wrong.

Winter enjoyed an injured Koevermans and Frings plus some very hard games right out of the gate.

Give Winter the in form koeverman that Mariner enjoyed (scoring almost every game) and I doubt we'd had seen the 0-9 start.

It's also interesting that you're willing to endure suffering under Mariner but not under Winter.

Mariner also said that we'd see results with him right away.

So he lied twice or is just plain foolish. I think he's both a liar and a dummy.

Now I know you don't care that he lied to you but your faith in him is not based on anything good that he's done.

His shining accomplishments this year have been the signing of o Dea and getting more out of Gerry Dunfield. Lol

Not much to hang your hat on.

Ajax TFC
09-21-2012, 03:00 PM
Avila didn't see many minutes with Winter either. Why would that be? He too stupid to recognize Avila's talent too?
T-boy, is that you stating facts about playing time without checking them first? Avila played in all but three games under Winter. Fuck it, why does that even matter? the fact is that I've seen him play more than enough minutes to come up with my own evaluation of him, and based on that I can say that he's one of the best players on the squad.

Ajax TFC
09-21-2012, 03:04 PM
Does anyone remember a trade that we actually got the better part of?!
Santos for Avila (although some wouldn't agree)

Ultra & Proud
09-21-2012, 05:03 PM
Just have to say this again. The 4-3-3 is not a system. It's a formation. And if anyone things SKC is amazing football watch again. Or watch for the first time. It's highly athletic pressing hoofball. Been enough bitching about it on US forums from other MLS supporters (and some of theirs). Go look it up.

Ultra & Proud
09-21-2012, 05:03 PM
Santos scored more goals this spring than Avila in his career.

Ajax TFC
09-21-2012, 05:06 PM
:facepalm:

jabbronies
09-21-2012, 05:11 PM
Just have to say this again. The 4-3-3 is not a system. It's a formation. And if anyone things SKC is amazing football watch again. Or watch for the first time. It's highly athletic pressing hoofball. Been enough bitching about it on US forums from other MLS supporters (and some of theirs). Go look it up.

agreed. Nut it is a good starting point to where we need to be.

jabbronies
09-21-2012, 05:13 PM
Santos scored more goals this spring than Avila in his career.

In a different system, with different players and different management.

I like them both, but still happy with Avila. there is a lot there that Mariner doesn't know how to use.

jloome
09-21-2012, 05:36 PM
LOL, Different position, too. Avila is a midfielder.

123 elite
09-21-2012, 10:25 PM
The stats show that the results from both managers are very similar...similarly garbage. The difference between the 2 managers is that one had a vision and the other refers to soccer at TFC as No Frills. That's the part that disgusts me. The 4 wins that happened under Mariner as manager happened because Winter's team was FINALLY healthy and playing together. The win against Aguila shouldn't even be considered. I could've coached that team to a win over the El Salvadorians.

To further Fort York Redcoat's point, from my understanding of it...under Winter, the results were going to start coming very soon, because at least the guy had a vision. His stubbornness when it came to formations and systems was at least making the games interesting, and it seemed at the time that we were just a piece or two away from getting the ball rolling. However, it seemed as if the players had given up on him simply because they were demoralized. After being a semi-finalist in the CCL and then setting a league record for most losses in a row, who could blame them? Now, under Mariner, I find it extremely difficult to see a win at anytime in our future...even beating CD Aguila will be difficult with this team in this form. Blame it on injuries again and whatever else you want...but this team is most definitely in a downward spiral...which is interesting because even though we went 0-9 to start the season, there was at least some glimpse into the future that we would soon be on the up and up. This franchise gave up on a future in an attempt to satisfy the present. Now that the present is just as shitty, the future looks even darker under Mariner. You can talk about hope and make a point to "just give him time to put his mark on the team"...but the man and the system that should've been given the time to adjust was Winter.

Nonsense. Finally healthy ? Based on what? An almost last minute winner when 9 games had already been lost? Mariner was a few late game goals from being almost the best manager ever in the beginning but it reflects nothing on what he is as a manager. He has shown himself inept over time. AS DID WINTER. He had his chance and in almost 50 games his team rarely clicked. Both of them are shit managers with absolutely no tactical awarness whatsoever. Winters team was going nowhere. mariners team is going nowhere and this club, unless it gets its finger out of its arse, is dying. Comparing shit v shit isnt going to make it any better

Yohan
09-22-2012, 07:16 AM
I wish ODea was signed in march

denime
09-22-2012, 07:22 AM
Nonsense. Finally healthy ? Based on what? An almost last minute winner when 9 games had already been lost? Mariner was a few late game goals from being almost the best manager ever in the beginning but it reflects nothing on what he is as a manager. He has shown himself inept over time. AS DID WINTER. He had his chance and in almost 50 games his team rarely clicked. Both of them are shit managers with absolutely no tactical awarness whatsoever. Winters team was going nowhere. mariners team is going nowhere and this club, unless it gets its finger out of its arse, is dying. Comparing shit v shit isnt going to make it any better

This is why Mariner should not be hired in the 1st place,he is shit without vision,Winter was shit coach but at least there was a plan and vision where we are heading,now with this sideline clown we are doomed for 2013 and 2014 because new coach will not be able to fix the shit roster he will inherited once Mariner is fired.

TFC John
09-22-2012, 08:19 AM
Where is Bob De Klerck? Did he leave with Winter or is he still employed somewhere? He struck me as a passionate guy who knew the game.

Auzzy
09-22-2012, 08:43 AM
Where is Bob De Klerck? Did he leave with Winter or is he still employed somewhere? He struck me as a passionate guy who knew the game.

He's still getting paid by the club, but doesn't seem to be doing much. Supposedly Mariner doesn't want him near the players (not even in the Academy). I expect he's collecting paycheques until the end of his contract, whenever that is, perhaps end of this year.

trane
09-22-2012, 09:59 AM
LOL, Different position, too. Avila is a midfielder.

It still amazes me after six years, how people still compare apples to oranges, and rate most players by two factors, the amount of goals they score, how hard they work/run.

Anyway, I will repeat what I have always thought, that while winter shuold have been fired, so should have mariner, and a manager that would build on the progress that was made under winter, and there was progress in terms of play, should have been hired.

Canary10
09-22-2012, 12:22 PM
I find this "Mariner doesn't have the players" argument really annoying.

1. If he doesn't have the players then neither did Winter, as we still have mostly the same players (at least up to the transfer window). Yet we fired one and kept the other.

2. Mariner was the one who said our players were better suited to his 4-4-2. Now he doesn't have the players to play his system.

3. Mariner's system is as basic as any gets. If 11 school children walked out onto a pitch, they could organize themselves equally as well. Probably better tactics too. If these guys can't play this basic system, then what Mariner is saying is he doesn't have footballers.

4. The players he got rid of (JDG, Soolsma, Plata, Bourgos) could be contributing to this team. He made the team substantially worse over the transfer window. Bitching about the quality of his players is pretty disingenous at this point.

Pookie
09-22-2012, 01:26 PM
I find this "Mariner doesn't have the players" argument really annoying.

1. If he doesn't have the players then neither did Winter, as we still have mostly the same players (at least up to the transfer window). Yet we fired one and kept the other.

2. Mariner was the one who said our players were better suited to his 4-4-2. Now he doesn't have the players to play his system.

3. Mariner's system is as basic as any gets. If 11 school children walked out onto a pitch, they could organize themselves equally as well. Probably better tactics too. If these guys can't play this basic system, then what Mariner is saying is he doesn't have footballers.

4. The players he got rid of (JDG, Soolsma, Plata, Bourgos) could be contributing to this team. He made the team substantially worse over the transfer window. Bitching about the quality of his players is pretty disingenous at this point.

I know this is a blog post but rather than copy it, we tackled this very issue last week in debunking the myth that Mariner hasn't had time to build his team. List of all the players that started the season under Winter and our starting 11 now. Pretty much his team, IMO.

http://www.wakingthered.com/2012/9/13/3316560/player-selection-did-paul-mariner-really-inherit-winters-team

lobo
09-22-2012, 03:50 PM
Just have to say this again. The 4-3-3 is not a system. It's a formation. And if anyone things SKC is amazing football watch again. Or watch for the first time. It's highly athletic pressing hoofball. Been enough bitching about it on US forums from other MLS supporters (and some of theirs). Go look it up.

more spin on a flawed argument ... i refuted your claim that 4-3-3 does not work in MLS, you're just debating semantics now ... and you very conveniently ignored all the other MLS teams i mentioned that make 4-3-3 work, as a formation and as the foundation for their system

pdelgadinho
09-25-2012, 12:43 PM
It still amazes me after six years, how people still compare apples to oranges, and rate most players by two factors, the amount of goals they score, how hard they work/run.

Anyway, I will repeat what I have always thought, that while winter shuold have been fired, so should have mariner, and a manager that would build on the progress that was made under winter, and there was progress in terms of play, should have been hired.

This is bang on. We are all debating if Mariner is doing a good job or not when we should be questioning why he was even employed by the team to begin with, in a position of finding players for a system that he doesn't believe in. He seemed to (and probably does) have a good track record of evaluating MLS level players but he needs to share some of the blame for us not having enough quality players to start the season. And then to completely abandon the new "vision" and "system" that the club was boasting about with the hiring of Winter is ridiculous. Mariners arrogant statements of being able to win with the group of players he took over and that he had a hand in assembling, is just salt in the wound.

There was more than enough reason to fire him with Winter, but regardless, there is reason enough now to fire him for his failure to win with the team he said he could win with.