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ForeverTFC
09-18-2012, 11:27 AM
http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?3750-Mariner-Cocharne-to-return-in-2013


CSN has confirmed that both Paul Mariner and Earl Cochrane will return to Toronto FC in 2013. Both men will be given clear and separate job descriptions.

Mariner will remain as the manager and will have the last call on all player signings. There will be no question as to who is responsible for the product on the pitch – it will be Mariner.

Cochrane will be given the job of general manager, although the title may be different. It’s important to note that general managers in MLS have a different role than they do in sports such as the NHL. In MLS a GM is responsible for managing the cap and being the point man for other league specific issues. They have very little to do with selecting players, with the exception of playing a role in determining what salary is appropriate for individual signings.

The two men have also been given an ultimatum – they will be fired if TFC fails to make the playoffs at the end of the 2013 season.

A source within TFC confirmed that what CSN has learned “is a fair way to put it.”

Well, they softened the landing for this one.

Greatest Ripoff
09-18-2012, 11:28 AM
Another wasted year.

lobo
09-18-2012, 11:30 AM
fucking abyssmal .... the 'lost year' coming up.

ag futbol
09-18-2012, 11:30 AM
So basically we are going to throw away another year as a club to confirm what everybody here already knows: That the people in charge aren't very good at their jobs.

narduch
09-18-2012, 11:31 AM
So basically we are going to throw away another year as a club to confirm what everybody here already knows: That the people in charge aren't very good at their jobs.

And possibly another year after that if they take forever to install a new management team.

tfcleeds
09-18-2012, 11:32 AM
Yep, it will just be 8 managers at the beginning of season 8. Same old story.

ForeverTFC
09-18-2012, 11:34 AM
You can make the playoffs by accident in this league ...

I don't know what is more worrying: that we have never made it, or that Paul and Earl may have their asses saved.

TFC Cityboy
09-18-2012, 11:37 AM
fan-fuckin-tastic. The glory starts in 2013

Ajax TFC
09-18-2012, 11:39 AM
they had better be fired the very day that the team is mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, and the search for a real GM should begin even before that if they aren't on track.

ag futbol
09-18-2012, 11:39 AM
You can make the playoffs by accident in this league ...

I don't know what is more worrying: that we have never made it, or that Paul and Earl may have their asses saved.
Scary thought.

At the same time, these guys are so backwards their behavior is the greatest determent to their own success. They are really good at being bad, which sounds odd, but yeah...

I'm more concerned they will suck just as much as normal, "almost" make the playoffs and then plead for more time. They we have to suffer through another year of this shit.

__wowza
09-18-2012, 11:42 AM
You can make the playoffs by accident in this league ...

I don't know what is more worrying: that we have never made it, or that Paul and Earl may have their asses saved.

I DO NOT WANT TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS BY ACCIDENT.

this has always been clear. i don't care about scrambling in and accidentally stumbling into a playoff spot because someone else fucks up. i want us to win, i want us to deserve to be there. fortunately, i haven absolutely no faith in these guys to bring us anywhere close to a playoff spot, so yeah.. i guess "another wasted year" is a pretty accurate way to put it.

Fort York Redcoat
09-18-2012, 11:45 AM
Inexcusable. Mariner was put in to improve the team and has not. There is no plan here. Cochrane will have reigns that he did not have before. Although I have little faith he will improve with more power at least he can now be fully culpable.

Oldtimer
09-18-2012, 11:45 AM
The glory starts in 2013

:lol:

Oldtimer
09-18-2012, 11:46 AM
So does Anselmi get fired if all 3 teams fail to make the playoffs? Somebody please tell me "yes."

TFC07
09-18-2012, 11:51 AM
I hope CSN is wrong about this and new president gets rid of Mariner and Co to bring his/her own people.

Beach_Red
09-18-2012, 11:52 AM
I hope CSN is wrong about this and new president gets rid of Mariner and Co to bring his/her own people.

Yes, let's hope this is one of those intentional leaks, a trial balloon, or something to gauge the reaction.

Auzzy
09-18-2012, 11:58 AM
IF this is true: you know what "make the playoffs this year or else you're out" means. Especially when the folks in charge from the top of the FO to the coach & his lackey don't really have the skills. Especially when they don't have any long-term security to rely on. It means everything will be done in view of short-term results. We've seen this a couple of times over the past 7 years.

- Avoid getting & playing academy grads and other young talents & giving them the opportunity to grow.
- Overpay for players, especially aging "results now" players.
- Blow whatever you got for short-term results: allocation money; draft pics/allocation order/etc; international spots; whatever else you can think of.
- Time-bomb contracts that increase in future years & screw us then (e.g., Barrett).
- Verbal promises "That's all I can offer you this year, but next year we'll boost your salary, just trust me."
- Overplay certain players, despite nagging injuries or folks just needing a break.
- Avoid building skills, a certain style, or any other strategy geared more towards long-term growth.
- Yell & scream alot.
- Every player you sign, knows from the beginning that Coach & Coch are on a one-year leash. Good chance there will be new coaches/new philosophy/new whatever within a year, and lots of stress in the meantime. What good player is going to want sign in that atmosphere, with no guarantee of stability? Unless you're really willing to overpay. Their agents will know you're desperate.
- All in all, screw the next couple of years so you can squeak into the playoffs.
So if they fail, Anselmi gets to fire Mariner & Cochrane next year, but Anselmi again keeps his job?

Gazza
09-18-2012, 11:58 AM
A track record of nothing but failure. Sure, give them another year to put us further behind (if that's possible). Two years ago i didn't think we could be worse off.

Gazza
09-18-2012, 11:59 AM
On one hand, apathy is sad. On the other hand, empty seats may be the only way of getting through to these knobheads.

reggie
09-18-2012, 12:01 PM
im done with this shithole....i cant wait for the rep to call me to renew.ASSCLOWNS

Auzzy
09-18-2012, 12:06 PM
A funny response would be: OK I'll get season tickets in 2014 after Mariner & Cochrane are gone.

However, tied in with this, another rumour going around on Twitter: some kind of loyalty discount for renewing season-ticket holders. Perhaps: you can renew your seats at the cost they were back when you first got your season tickets. But of course, if you don't renew & want to come back in the future, you'll be screwed & have to pay top dollar from then on.

Kinda like a ransom pack to force you to pay for next year's shit show.

Pookie
09-18-2012, 12:11 PM
7 coaches in 6 seasons.

"Make the playoffs or you are fired"

... what's different about next year, again?

If this becomes official, that seals the deal for me... regardless of what (if anything) they do with prices.

tfcleeds
09-18-2012, 12:11 PM
So does Anselmi get fired if all 3 teams fail to make the playoffs? Somebody please tell me "yes."Nah, he'll just be judged in the same way his predecessor was: by how MLSE's income statement looks at the end of the year. Of course, on the Leafs front, if there happens to be a lockout for the entire 2012-13 season, he'll get a free pass on that front.

MG42
09-18-2012, 12:13 PM
Oh man this sucks...it still baffles me how we ended up here after the promise of the early days of TFC

narduch
09-18-2012, 12:15 PM
some kind of loyalty discount for renewing season-ticket holders. Perhaps: you can renew your seats at the cost they were back when you first got your season tickets.

I seriously doubt that. No way they lower south end tickets to $200 for the season.

Auzzy
09-18-2012, 12:17 PM
I seriously doubt that. No way they lower south end tickets to $200 for the season.

True, likely the discount won't be that steep. But maybe a sliding discount % based on how many years you've had season tickets. But there would still be pressure to renew for next year, despite the lousy prospects for the season.

Suds
09-18-2012, 12:19 PM
On the one hand I like a directive that says - we are about winning. If you don't win, you're gone.

However, as Auzzy points out above, we know where this will lead. Decisions will be made for short-term gain to save jobs an squeak into the playoffs. This will just result in long-term pain. I see year 7 as a year of I told you so comments from the camp backing Mariner. Year 8 - the I told you so from the anti-Mariner camp when we drop back to crap because we blew out wad to save face for one year. That kind of decision making will not lead to consistent results.

I hope to hell I'm dead wrong.

Ageroo
09-18-2012, 12:21 PM
On the one hand I like a directive that says - we are about winning. If you don't win, you're gone.

However, as Auzzy points out above, we know where this will lead. Decisions will be made for short-term gain to save jobs an squeak into the playoffs. This will just result in long-term pain. I see year 7 as a year of I told you so comments from the camp backing Mariner. Year 8 - the I told you so from the anti-Mariner camp when we drop back to crap because we blew out wad to save face for one year. That kind of decision making will not lead to consistent results.

I hope to hell I'm dead wrong.

I hope you are as well...but agree with your whole statement fully.

tfcleeds
09-18-2012, 12:25 PM
There is no way we will make the playoffs based on what I've seen under Mariner so far. When you add in the likely departures (eg. Frings) and possible departures (eg. Koevs) before next season, it certainly doesn't look too promising.

Gazza
09-18-2012, 12:27 PM
Going through a list of Jerry Seinfeld responses to annoying telemarketers, so i can share some with my ticket rep when they call.

But really, the only response to the question of "Will you be renewing your season seats" should be "why?" Let them try and answer that one.

narduch
09-18-2012, 12:27 PM
I have no faith that this management team can finish ahead of KC, DCU, NYRB or Houston. Plus its doubtful that they will be better than Chicago, Montreal or Columbus. And what happens if Philly and New England finally get their shit together?

Anselmi is just buying himself 1 more year until he is forced to make a tough decision again. Hopefully Anselmi isn't the one making the decision.

PopePouri
09-18-2012, 12:27 PM
I'm really disappointed they ditched the 4-3-3. I'm pretty sure it would have worked out in the end probably not with Winter but with someone else. The issue wasn't the system.

TFC07
09-18-2012, 12:29 PM
I wonder what new president thinks of having Mariner and Co. for a year at least. (If TFC decides to get one).

Ultra & Proud
09-18-2012, 12:36 PM
So does Anselmi get fired if all 3 teams fail to make the playoffs? Somebody please tell me "yes."
If so then he'd better get his resume ready.

Out of the 'big' three the only one who could possibly make the playoffs is TFC and that has more to do with MLS parity than the team. Time to forget about him because I am sure that when the 9 million complaints come down on the Leafs he'll have completely forgotten about our wee TFC.

reggie
09-18-2012, 12:48 PM
maybe they can open up a new pub by BMO called the COCH AND CLOWN!

Gazza
09-18-2012, 12:51 PM
maybe they can open up a new pub by BMO called the COCH AND CLOWN!

"No Frills Pub Fare."

Yohan
09-18-2012, 12:58 PM
I'm just waiting for Paul Beirne to be named President of TFC

TFC Tifoso
09-18-2012, 12:59 PM
:mad::mad:


?v=VnT7pT6zCcA

Darlofletch
09-18-2012, 01:00 PM
I hope you are as well...but agree with your whole statement fully.

Me too. why get fired and let the next guy reap the rewards of your patience. expect lots of "so-so mls veteran for prospects' kind of deals. I'd use 2014 1st rounder as the example in that statement, but, you know....

reggie
09-18-2012, 01:03 PM
"No Frills Pub Fare."

the main drink can be a RUN & KICK with a twist of a lie.

ryan
09-18-2012, 01:15 PM
can't decide which one is better for my reaction here

http://www.virtualsportsnetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/2663254RKL82v5Z[1].gif

or

http://www.virtualsportsnetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/26744259Xmil1kV[1].gif

maninb
09-18-2012, 01:28 PM
I don't know wether to laugh or cry....typical TFC...REWARD FAILURE....and to HELL with the supporters....I just hope they get <8000 STH renewals.....Anyway I'm DONE with this team and will NEVER spend another dime on them as long as PM is manager.....

__wowza
09-18-2012, 01:37 PM
But really, the only response to the question of "Will you be renewing your season seats" should be "why?" Let them try and answer that one.

honestly bud, do it.
put them on the spot, see what they say.

lobo
09-18-2012, 01:37 PM
I'm really disappointed they ditched the 4-3-3. I'm pretty sure it would have worked out in the end probably not with Winter but with someone else. The issue wasn't the system.

I second that. All the time and effort and marketing and planning and dollars that went into developing the 4-3-3 possession system was flushed away when Anselmi hit the PANIC button. And now he can't hit the PANIC button when he really needs to. Fuckin idiots.

Ajax TFC
09-18-2012, 01:42 PM
Besides guaranteeing two more seasons of shit, this announcement also signs the fate of Avila and Plata. Avila will be traded and Plata will be released or become the next Cordon (doesn't make the bench even when there's no one else to sit on it)

narduch
09-18-2012, 01:45 PM
Besides guaranteeing two more seasons of shit, this announcement also signs the fate of Avila and Plata. Avila will be traded and Plata will be released or become the next Cordon (doesn't make the bench even when there's no one else to sit on it)

I think you can add Frings, Stinson, Cann, Williams, Harden, Cordon and Makabuya to the list of players that will be gone.

I'm not sure about Koevermans, but I wonder.

[NBF]
09-18-2012, 01:48 PM
I dont know if this team will be able to replace players and add quality at the same time. What I find funny is that Paul Mariner will have the final "say" on player signings and Cochrane will not be in the business of targeting/scouting players, but will be in charge of managing the cap. Which is basically saying no one is in charge of scouting players outside of the MLS Super Draft and the majority of players signing with the team will join through the MLS Super Draft for the league minimum or average draft player salary. So basically dont expect any big quality international signings outside of the MLS and expect alot of young new faces that will do as they are told or be traded.

Expect:

- Jeremy Hall V.2.0
- Andrew Wideman V2.0
- Nane Joseph V.2.0

- and possibly a trade or waiver pick up of Shalrie Joseph.

lobo
09-18-2012, 01:52 PM
i'm thinking of a two-stick for our last game ....

"There's always 2014".

__wowza
09-18-2012, 01:53 PM
http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/countygrind/pimped-out-chappelle1.jpg

what can you say about this organization that hasn't already been said about afghanistan?

[NBF]
09-18-2012, 01:59 PM
I think you can add Frings, Stinson, Cann, Williams, Harden, Cordon and Makabuya to the list of players that will be gone.

I'm not sure about Koevermans, but I wonder.

What I see is 8-9 players joining in the following positions:

------------------------------------Frei-------------------------------------
------------------------------------Kocic------------------------------------
-------------------------------------Hall-------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eckersley--------------1.X---------------------O'Dea---------------Morgan
Henry-----------------Williams-------------------Maund----------------Emory
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Pasher
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------2.X-----------------------3.X-----------------------
----------------------Stinson---------------------5.X------------------------
Lambe--------------------------------------------------------------Johnson
--6.X-------------------------------------------------------------------7.X--
-----------------------Silva----------------------4.X------------------------
------------------------9.X-----------------------8.X------------------------

....We're going to need more draft picks. :deadhorse:

TFC07
09-18-2012, 02:01 PM
Looks like I will boycott TFC (going to games, buying their jersey etc...) until they get rid Mariner and Cochrane.

Thanks TFC for killing local soccer and our rep as a soccer city. We are laughing stock in soccer world.

narduch
09-18-2012, 02:04 PM
;1529893']What I see is 8-9 players joining in the following positions:

------------------------------------Frei-------------------------------------
------------------------------------Kocic------------------------------------
-------------------------------------Hall-------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eckersley--------------1.X---------------------O'Dea---------------Morgan
Henry-----------------Williams-------------------Maund----------------Emory
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Pasher
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------2.X-----------------------3.X-----------------------
----------------------Stinson---------------------5.X------------------------
Lambe--------------------------------------------------------------Johnson
--6.X-------------------------------------------------------------------7.X--
-----------------------Silva----------------------4.X------------------------
------------------------9.X-----------------------8.X------------------------

....We're going to need more draft picks. :deadhorse:

I don't see Williams or Stinson returning.

And only one of Kocic and Frei will remain. I bet Kocic will be out.

Pookie
09-18-2012, 02:11 PM
Hey, if Earl says we are 8-9 players away and we can only make a maximum of 6 discovery signings in a season... where are the other guys coming from? 1 from Superdraft? Then what?

Nestease
09-18-2012, 02:12 PM
Yes, let's hope this is one of those intentional leaks, a trial balloon, or something to gauge the reaction.

This story is very much true. At the last match on TSN, Jason DeVos spilled the beans and called Earl Cochrane the GM. He said Earl and Paul Mariner have a lot of cleaning to do in the offseason.

narduch
09-18-2012, 02:12 PM
Hey, if Earl says we are 8-9 players away and we can only make a maximum of 6 discovery signings in a season... where are the other guys coming from? 1 from Superdraft? Then what?

New DPs? They don't have to go through discovery.

Pookie
09-18-2012, 02:14 PM
^ well according to Mariner, all 3 will be back ;)

TOBOR !
09-18-2012, 02:22 PM
well, that's all I needed to hear :

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/i'm%20out%20of%20here/grand/im-out-of-here-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-348.gif

denime
09-18-2012, 02:46 PM
WOW just FU@*^NG WOW

They just made it easier for me not to renew.

This club is Circus and clowns are running the shitshow.

We can simply forget 2013,with roster we have there is 0 chance of any decent trade,not to mention no one wants to come here already.

One more year of short pants clown on the sideline :banghead:

ryan
09-18-2012, 02:50 PM
Just reading the presser from Burke about the recently departed goalie coach Allaire. Sounds like he left due to too many meddling suits.

Nah, that's totally unlike MLSE.


Hey Tommy Boy, GET YOUR FUCKING DRONES IN LINE.

Sincerely,

Toronto

TOBOR !
09-18-2012, 02:52 PM
WOW just FU@*^NG WOW

They just made it easier for me not to renew.

This club is Circus and clowns are running the shitshow.

We can simply forget 2013,with roster we have there is 0 chance of any decent trade,not to mention no one wants to come here already.

One more year of short pants clown on the sideline :banghead:

Yep. They pretty much just told everyone not to bother showing up in 2013.

I'm hoping the crowds are so small next year that the team is sold... that, or they fold it and the league moves snother team here.

Footy in this town will work, just not footy run by the Ringling Bros., apparently.

Oldtimer
09-18-2012, 02:59 PM
Yep. They pretty much just told everyone not to bother showing up in 2013.


Pretty much so. I think a lot will take them up on it, too.

tfcleeds
09-18-2012, 03:17 PM
Just reading the presser from Burke about the recently departed goalie coach Allaire. Sounds like he left due to too many meddling suits.Nah, that's totally unlike MLSE.Hey Tommy Boy, GET YOUR FUCKING DRONES IN LINE. Sincerely,TorontoYep, I guess Francois Allaire can officially be considered the first casualty under Tommy Boy's watch. The first of many, Tommy! The first of many.

Eastend
09-18-2012, 03:18 PM
I guess they'll be lots of opportunity at the re-location. Instead of expansion they'll have to close the upper deck and move everyone to the eaststand so it looks soldout.

Dom

Initial B
09-18-2012, 03:20 PM
The silver lining: The reign of Cochrane and Mariner will end in 2013. Then it will be up to whoever comes in afterwards to pick up the pieces. There is no possible way they can make the play-offs with the lack of tradable players and suspect scouting.

HOWEVER: If at the end of next season the FO backtracks and says they never literally meant to quit, that it was only for motivation, then I am gone. I at least expect teams I support to have at least a shred of integrity.

As for who will make the playoffs, actually the Toronto Raptors aren't looking too bad this coming year and are my pick for first MLSE team to make the playoffs this decade.

narduch
09-18-2012, 03:22 PM
HOWEVER: If at the end of next season the FO backtracks and says they never literally meant to quit, that it was only for motivation, then I am gone. I at least expect teams I support to have at least a shred of integrity.


But the club never made an official announcement about this. It was reported in a blog by one of the team's media mouthpieces.

So if they did back track for whatever reason, there was never a public statement made about this by the club.

This is just like the Mariner 3-year contract extension. News so vomit inducing the team wants to keep it on the down low.

reggie
09-18-2012, 03:29 PM
I don't know wether to laugh or cry....typical TFC...REWARD FAILURE....and to HELL with the supporters....I just hope they get <8000 STH renewals.....Anyway I'm DONE with this team and will NEVER spend another dime on them as long as PM is manager.....

list of people not spending a dime or playing while PM and EC are with the club.
FRINGS
MANINB
REGGIE

reggie
09-18-2012, 03:32 PM
But the club never made an official announcement about this. It was reported in a blog by one of the team's media mouthpieces.

So if they did back track for whatever reason, there was never a public statement made about this by the club.

This is just like the Mariner 3-year contract extension. News so vomit inducing the team wants to keep it on the down low.

hmmm..so there is still a chance that NESTA is signing and will be our BOSS back on D.

Chevy
09-18-2012, 03:37 PM
http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1020/469503.1020.A.jpghttp://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1020/469503.1020.A.jpg

golaso.gol
09-18-2012, 03:57 PM
TFC scouting team already working towards next season.......How many Bermuda internationals are allowed under MLS rosters rules?

ag futbol
09-18-2012, 04:13 PM
Ok, I hate to stir the pot but the main crux of that article (Mariner and Cochrane being fired if they don't succeed next year) is hearsay

:leaving:

reggie
09-18-2012, 04:21 PM
TFC scouting team already working towards next season.......How many Bermuda internationals are allowed under MLS rosters rules?

yes they are, they jus put a fresh coat of paint on PMs villa in BERMUDA,scouting to start in dec..

TOBOR !
09-18-2012, 04:44 PM
But the club never made an official announcement about this. It was reported in a blog by one of the team's media mouthpieces.

So if they did back track for whatever reason, there was never a public statement made about this by the club.

This is just like the Mariner 3-year contract extension. News so vomit inducing the team wants to keep it on the down low.
Could it be that this is a trial balloon being floated by the club to gauge reaction first?

bgnewf
09-18-2012, 04:44 PM
I had this on my blog last week. Take it for what its worth, but it kind of corroborates Duane's story from a totally different source than the one he quoted. My source on what I wrote below came from a MLSE employee who does not work for TFC, Duane's came from a TFC staffer directly: http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2012/09/quiet-resignation/

The MLSE Town Hall Meeting that my source attended took place on September 6th.

"... Earl Cochrane is if reports yesterday are to be believed was introduced at an internal MLSE staff meeting yesterday along with Maple Leafs GM Brian Burke and Raptors boss Bryan Colangelo as the “new” head honcho of Toronto FC. In a picture on Twitter taken at the meeting Cochrane was flanked by Brian & Bryan taking questions from the assembled staffers. If this is true then Earl will likely be announced as Anselmi’s successor officially next week to the general public..."

denime
09-18-2012, 04:49 PM
Yep. They pretty much just told everyone not to bother showing up in 2013.

2013 and 2014

I doubt it, that whoever takes over TFC after Clowns are gone,will make the playoff in 2014.


Looking forward to another 3-4 years without playoff,priceless

Ajax TFC
09-18-2012, 04:50 PM
Yep, I guess Francois Allaire can officially be considered the first casualty under Tommy Boy's watch. The first of many, Tommy! The first of many.
don't give Anselmi too much credit for this. What your suggesting is that Anselmi may have done something right...

Ajax TFC
09-18-2012, 05:00 PM
Hey, if Earl says we are 8-9 players away and we can only make a maximum of 6 discovery signings in a season... where are the other guys coming from? 1 from Superdraft? Then what?
waivers, free agency, trade all picks avaiable. Remeber, Mariner absolutely loves taking on other teams garbage.

tfcleeds
09-18-2012, 05:33 PM
don't give Anselmi too much credit for this. What your suggesting is that Anselmi may have done something right...

Not to hijack the thread, but you may be right. I don't know. I don't follow the Leafs closely enough to know whether this was the right decision or not. All I know is, he's respected around the NHL enough, and certainly has a decent track record. Maybe his coaching isn't at fault - maybe our goalies just aren't good enough. But anyways, not to turn this into the Leafs thread. The idea that 'interference from the suits' was responsible for him leaving was the impetus for my post. Allaire leaving, despite Burke calling him up until just recently, "the best goaltending coach in the league" really does speak to the level of dysfunction in this organization. It is rotten to the core. None of these yahoos is ever accountable for anything they say or do.

Redcoe15
09-18-2012, 05:49 PM
FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!!!!!!!

This ain't no circus. It's a goddamn fucking freak show!

jimiv
09-18-2012, 06:02 PM
Can someone explain what Earl Cochrane has done in his football career that warrants this? He's been part of the "leadership" of this team for 6 years. Showing a record of 66/90/68, constant bad decisions and has obvious disdain for the supporters.

KGH
09-18-2012, 06:07 PM
What I see is 6-7 people:

------------------------------------Frei-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------Hall------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eckersley------------Henry--------------------O'Dea-------------Morgan
Hall-------------------Williams-------------------Emory--------------Pasher
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------Dunfield-------------------1.X-----------------------
----------------------Stinson--------------------Maund-----------------------
Lambe----------------------------------------------------------------2.X--
--3.X------------------------------------------------------------------5.X---
-----------------------Silva----------------------4.X------------------------
------------------------6.X-----------------------7.X----------------------

ensco
09-18-2012, 06:34 PM
Can someone explain what Earl Cochrane has done in his football career that warrants this? He's been part of the "leadership" of this team for 6 years. Showing a record of 66/90/68, constant bad decisions and has obvious disdain for the supporters.



"You've got to give loyalty down, if you want loyalty up."
Donald T. Regan (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/donaldtre172652.html), Former US Secretary of the Treasury

Shakes McQueen
09-18-2012, 06:39 PM
If this is true, I can't wait for the press conference where they explain their justification. What have Mariner or Cochrane done to demonstrate that they deserve another year - even one with a clear ultimatum?

Mariner's one claim to fame with TFC was the incredible feat of winning three games in a row. Cochrane's claim to fame is...? After seven years, declining ticket sales and ST renewals, and extreme fan anger/apathy, they determined this was the wisest course of action?

What is the end game here? To save some pocket change by keeping guys already under contract instead of putting new names on the dole? What else could it possibly be?

TFC should be in full-on "spend whatever it takes" mode right now, even if it meant going into the red in the shorter term. They should be slashing ticket prices, and consulting anyone and everyone, no matter the price, to put together a management team the likes of which this league has never seen, and then telling that team to write whatever cheques they need to write, to put together a good team. Right now they should be in a full on "save the patient" mentality.

This is a call to the pathetic soccer media in this city (J-Mo notwithstanding): Do your jobs, and don't let these weasels off the hook with a bunch of softballs.

- Scott

Richard
09-18-2012, 07:15 PM
2013-Lost year
2014-Rebuild(Lost year)
2015-Possible Contention for playoff spot

3 years folks, i dont see how were going to be any good for awhile. You might as well completly forget about this team.

nfitz
09-18-2012, 07:16 PM
Haven't we been hearing about this for days already? Is the shock and horror just for show?

Very good news as far as I'm concerned. Should provide some well-needed stability. And we'll certainly find out next season if this works or not. And if it doesn't, we already know it will be a complete house cleaning.

I know many here disagree with me. I certainly don't know if I'm right. I hope I'm right. And I hope that most of you hope that I'm right.

TFC07
09-18-2012, 07:18 PM
Stability by keeping people who are the reason why we suck? lol

Why not just keep Winter for sake of stability and stick to attacking soccer plan we were sold by MLSE? lol

denime
09-18-2012, 07:20 PM
Haven't we been hearing about this for days already? Is the shock and horror just for show?

Very good news as far as I'm concerned. Should provide some well-needed stability. And we'll certainly find out next season if this works or not. And if it doesn't, we already know it will be a complete house cleaning.

I know many here disagree with me. I certainly don't know if I'm right. I hope I'm right. And I hope that most of you hope that I'm right.

We don't know that,this might be just another marketing scheme to sell some ST.
The scary part once Mariner fails next year(and I'm confident he will) we will have to rebuilt once again in 2014.

nfitz
09-18-2012, 07:22 PM
As this is happening, what supporters have to do to move forward, is just put this issue to bed for the next 10 months, either move on (if they've had it), or support the team. They'll be plenty of time to stick knives in Mariner and Cochrane's back come next July. And if we are as pathetic as we've been the last 2 years, I'll happily sharpen the blade.

denime
09-18-2012, 07:27 PM
As this is happening, what supporters have to do to move forward, is just put this issue to bed for the next 10 months, either move on (if they've had it), or support the team. They'll be plenty of time to stick knives in Mariner and Cochrane's back come next July. And if we are as pathetic as we've been the last 2 years, I'll happily sharpen the blade.


Yeah right,let's just bend over for another 10 months and let them have it,after all the gave us so much free Vaseline this year,why not use it :sheep:.

nfitz
09-18-2012, 07:38 PM
Yeah right,let's just bend over for another 10 months and let them have it,after all the gave us so much free Vaseline this year,why not use it :sheep:.Well if your into that I suppose ... who am I to judge. Glad to hear your on board!

Shakes McQueen
09-18-2012, 07:46 PM
Haven't we been hearing about this for days already? Is the shock and horror just for show?

It's people reacting to the mounting evidence that it's true. Suggesting this completely justified anger is "for show" is going to do nothing but cause a flamewar.

And yes, of course we hope you're right. We aren't masochists. I'm tired of feeling nothing but anger and lethargy about this team.

I hope Cochrane and Mariner win 10 MLS cups in a row. BUt hopes and dreams don't necessarily comport with realty, or what we've seen thus far.

- Scott

London
09-18-2012, 07:53 PM
As this is happening, what supporters have to do to move forward, is just put this issue to bed for the next 10 months, either move on (if they've had it), or support the team. They'll be plenty of time to stick knives in Mariner and Cochrane's back come next July. And if we are as pathetic as we've been the last 2 years, I'll happily sharpen the blade.


the FO and yourself will be quite suprised next season when you find out that in fact the supporters will not support the FO and manager of this club until they show a shred of knowledge about running a successfull club,

the knives are already stuck in the backs, they did it to themselves and only have themselves to blame.

take a look at what the state of TFC was in the last 2 home games, soon enough that will look like a big crowd for BMO

Supporters support the players, nobody else

nfitz
09-18-2012, 08:24 PM
And yes, of course we hope you're right. We aren't masochists. I'm tired of feeling nothing but anger and lethargy about this team.

I hope Cochrane and Mariner win 10 MLS cups in a row.Good to hear ... sometimes I start to wonder.

But hang on ... isn't being a football fan all about being a masochist? Unless your a Man U or a Barcelona fan, aren't you signing on for huge disappointment, regret, and tears?

Pookie
09-18-2012, 08:26 PM
Just so we are clear, if Rollins is correct TFC's management hierarchy is essentially the status quo, new titles aside:

Anselmi
Mariner
Cochrane

Now that is clear, I want to thank MLSE for giving me something else to finally think about. I wonder what I'll spend my $1,100 on?

TOBOR !
09-18-2012, 08:32 PM
Just so we are clear, if Rollins is correct TFC's management hierarchy is essentially the status quo, new titles aside:

Anselmi
Mariner
Cochrane

Now that is clear, I want to thank MLSE for giving me something else to finally think about. I wonder what I'll spend my $1,100 on?

Now you`re talking sense !

Shakes McQueen
09-18-2012, 08:45 PM
Good to hear ... sometimes I start to wonder.

But hang on ... isn't being a football fan all about being a masochist? Unless your a Man U or a Barcelona fan, aren't you signing on for huge disappointment, regret, and tears?

It's one thing in Europe, to be a fan of a team without the resources to compete with the likes of a Barcelona or Man United. We are in a salary capped league, with one of the richest owners in the league, playing in one of the most populous cities in the league.

In six years we've had one serious sniff at the post-season, and it culminated in arguably the lowest single point in the franchise's history (the 4-0 drubbing to New York). All the while we've been fed a steady stream of excuses and unfulfilled promises, and sunshiney rainbows about how it "wasn't good enough" by the likes of Tom Anselmi.

We really do deserve better. And I fail to see how the status quo is supposed to deliver us from that.

- Scott

[NBF]
09-18-2012, 08:50 PM
Players that will not return to play under Mariner:

1. Plata
2. Frings
3. Avila
4. Makubuya
5. Cordon
6. Dunfield(I dont think they want this guy back, but I bet they'll give him an academy job)

On The Bubble:

7. D.Williams(Maybe)
8. Q.Roberts(Maybe)
9. S.Frei(He could be traded, because he has value to MLS teams)
10. M.Kocic(Has some trade value, but likely to stay)

On The Bubble DP's:

11. Eric Hassli(Some trade value, but not likely to stay at the DP salary)
12. Danny Koevermans(Some trade value, but coming of an injury and is likely to be out of shape and under DP salary)

*Just replacing Torsten Frings is such a major task that I dont think this group of geniuses could get right. If they plan on bringing in 8-9 players I fail to see where they'll get them from that will be able to jump into the first team or even make a solid bench player.

I dont think they will have 20 players that will come under the cap.

Whoop
09-18-2012, 08:51 PM
Even in Europe different clubs fight for different things.

Some play for the title, others play for a spot in a European competition, others play to stay in the first division. There is something for everyone.

Luckily TFC has the Voyageurs Cup to play for otherwise it would be a lot more dire.

And it wasn't 4-0 to NYRB, it was 5-0.

Oldtimer
09-18-2012, 08:54 PM
I'm pretty sure that instead of "spend what it takes to get fans back," it's going to be "spend as little as possible so you can still make money with 8,000 in the stands. " Expect this team to suck for the forseable future.

narduch
09-18-2012, 08:55 PM
What is the end game here? To save some pocket change by keeping guys already under contract instead of putting new names on the dole? What else could it possibly be?

I think the the purpose of this was that it buys Anselmi one more season before he has to make a decision again.

supersaint
09-18-2012, 08:56 PM
Good to hear ... sometimes I start to wonder.

But hang on ... isn't being a football fan all about being a masochist? Unless your a Man U or a Barcelona fan, aren't you signing on for huge disappointment, regret, and tears?


I have been a STH since day one. 2000 a year. I love the game passionately. I cannot justify that type of outlay to watch the football on display at BMO field anymore. I cannot understand how you seem filled with praise for Mariner. Are we watching the same team? MLS is moving on, most successful teams are becoming more technical. Mariner likes a style of football that does not produce results AND is excrutiating to watch. And this comes from someone who loves the game. We are such a turnoff to the casual fan, and we are certainly not going to win over any new supporters, and that really pisses me off, because this SHOULD have been one of the great franchises in the league!! I doubt very much that you will have your knife out for Mariner if we fail to make the playoffs, you will defend him to the end. I just do not understand how anyone who knows anything at all about the game can defend the crap that we are watching down at BMO Field just now. The lack of possession, the lack of creativity, the lack of entertainment, the lack of HOPE for the future, and now finally the lack of attendance. I am just so angry because this team is being run into the ground. I will still watch on tv next year, but I cannot justify the time and effort to get to the park from Newmarket and the cost. The value is just not there. Hopefully the MNT make it through to the Hex, because I will certainly attend their games.

Richard
09-18-2012, 08:56 PM
I'm pretty sure that instead of "spend what it takes to get fans back," it's going to be "spend as little as possible so you can still make money with 8,000 in the stands. " Expect this team to suck for the forseable future.

Sounds like Bell/Rogers wants to run this team like the Jays.

Shakes McQueen
09-18-2012, 09:03 PM
Sounds like Bell/Rogers wants to run this team like the Jays.

I've got some anxiety about some of the contradictory statements from Beeston and AA about team salary, but this statement isn't borne out by the facts.

If they wanted to run the team on the cheap, they wouldn't have exponentially increased spending on signing draft picks, or turned our scouting department into one of the biggest in the league.

You can make an argument that they are being too tight with the purse strings on free agent signings (though there is wide disagreement on this point among the fans, depending on where you think the team is in it's development), but they most definitely are not running the team "on the cheap" right now.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
09-18-2012, 09:05 PM
I think the the purpose of this was that it buys Anselmi one more season before he has to make a decision again.

But how does keeping two guys the fans are already fed up with "buy him time", unless you literally mean he can't be bothered to find anyone else.

The man was just named President of MLSE despite six dreadful campaigns - clearly he isn't worried about his TFC decisions coming back to haunt him.

- Scott

tfcleeds
09-18-2012, 09:07 PM
Good to hear ... sometimes I start to wonder.

But hang on ... isn't being a football fan all about being a masochist? Unless your a Man U or a Barcelona fan, aren't you signing on for huge disappointment, regret, and tears?

There is a world of difference between what your average supporter of a lower-league English league club, for instance, has to put up with, and what we as supporters of this club, have had to put up with since this club's inception. For starters, the whole of MLS is setup to promote parity. There is no reason, if we had had competent management in place, that we should not have made the playoffs by now. Heck, RSL was in the same situation as us, and they've managed to win a championship in their short existence.

It's not just a question of results, however. This management team has shown utter arrogance and indifference towards its most loyal supporters. We've been treated as an afterthought by the FO of this club, with the constant price-hikes despite no improvement in the product. Ticket prices are amongst the most expensive, not just in MLS, but in the world - and for what? This FO was gifted with an amazing fanbase from the very beginning, even though there were many exterior factors that helped account for that, and yet somehow they developed the notion that they were responsible for it. They were born on 3rd base, and thought they hit a triple. They used the supporters groups to promote their product, yet ended up alienating them when they felt they didn't need them anymore for marketing purposes. This club has made so many short-sighted decisions that have been nothing but costly mistakes, not only serving to harm the competitiveness of the team in the league, but also basically destroying the atmosphere in the stands and decimating the fanbase almost overnight.

Yeah, a lot of English league clubs are badly run as well - but the thing is, badly run teams in England pay for their mistakes. Relegation happens, ownership changes, and team fortunes change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. As a Leeds United supporter for more than 20 years, I feel qualified to speak to that reality. MLSE and the FO of this club however, seem tone-deaf to the demands of their supporters, and the realities of the market they're in however. I think they'll be getting the message very soon once season ticket renewal numbers come in lower than ever.

narduch
09-18-2012, 09:13 PM
But how does keeping two guys the fans are already fed up with "buy him time", unless you literally mean he can't be bothered to find anyone else.

The man was just named President of MLSE despite six dreadful campaigns - clearly he isn't worried about his TFC decisions coming back to haunt him.

- Scott

Yes, I think Anselmi is really bad at making hard decisions. I think he hates making them. He procrastinates on really tough decisions or tries to defer them to someone else.

Shakes McQueen
09-18-2012, 09:20 PM
Yes, I think Anselmi is really bad at making hard decisions. I think he hates making them. He procrastinates on really tough decisions or tries to defer them to someone else.

Given how many managers we've gone through over the years, I don't think that's true. I think he has no problem making decisions - he just has a proclivity for making terrible ones.

But whatever, at this point we are just haggling over why exactly he's so awful, haha. :D

- Scott

Pookie
09-18-2012, 09:28 PM
I've got some anxiety about some of the contradictory statements from Beeston and AA about team salary, but this statement isn't borne out by the facts.

If they wanted to run the team on the cheap, they wouldn't have exponentially increased spending on signing draft picks, or turned our scouting department into one of the biggest in the league.

You can make an argument that they are being too tight with the purse strings on free agent signings (though there is wide disagreement on this point among the fans, depending on where you think the team is in it's development), but they most definitely are not running the team "on the cheap" right now.

- Scott

Not to turn this into a Jays discussion but I did the numbers in January of this year and the Jays total spending "draft and payroll" is less now than it was a decade ago.

The increase in draft spending is also temporary due to a new cap. Further, the year in which the Jays increased their spend was the year of record MLB draft spending. Jays were outspent by the Pirates by over $7m in that 2011 inflationary year. All tams spent more on the draft that year than they ever did.

Its a good spin but it doesnt hold up. Rogers is running the team on a tight budget and has since taking over.

Full article is here http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012/01/09/jays_draft_spending/

Beach_Red
09-18-2012, 09:30 PM
Given how many managers we've gone through over the years, I don't think that's true. I think he has no problem making decisions - he just has a proclivity for making terrible ones.

But whatever, at this point we are just haggling over why exactly he's so awful, haha. :D

- Scott

Yeah, this is what it's come to. Although there is a quote in the other thread from Anselmi insisting he "only hired two managers," so I guess he feels he delegated the other decisions and that somehow absolves him of responsibility.

But yeah, with this organization it isn't a matter of not spending it's just that they aren't very good.

Shakes McQueen
09-18-2012, 09:35 PM
Not to turn this into a Jays discussion but I did the numbers in January of this year and the Jays total spending "draft and payroll" is less now than it was a decade ago.

The increase in draft spending is also temporary due to a new cap. Further, the year in which the Jays increased their spend was the year of record MLB draft spending. Jays were outspent by the Pirates by over $7m in that 2011 inflationary year. All tams spent more on the draft that year than they ever did.

Its a good spin but it doesnt hold up. Rogers is running the team on a tight budget and has since taking over.

Full article is here http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012/01/09/jays_draft_spending/

It wasn't a question of whether they were spending the most in the league on these things - it was a question of whether they were running the team "on the cheap". And it completely disregards what I said about the massive expansion in our scouting staff.

And yes, I know that we are spending less on payroll now than we were ten years ago (even factoring in the draft). Stoeten did a story on this about a week ago on Drunk Jays Fans, after AA claimed that payroll had been "steadily increasing every year" to a reporter. The difference between 10 years ago and now, is that AA/Beeston had generally been pretty frank about the fact that they wanted to redouble scouting and drafting efforts, rebuild the farm system, and then add a FA or two when the time was right. The disagreement with some fans and media has been on what the "right time" is.

And of course, a real, unavoidable test is going to come up when guys like Brett Lawrie are knocking on the door for their big, fat contract extensions.

So yes, they've been thrifty when it comes to payroll, so far (in some cases smartly, in other cases... not so much). But they aren't running the team "on the cheap". And personally, I think this winter is going to be a turning point for Rogers to either put up, or shut up, as it pertains to the Blue Jays.

- Scott

jazzy
09-18-2012, 09:44 PM
IF this is true: you know what "make the playoffs this year or else you're out" means. Especially when the folks in charge from the top of the FO to the coach & his lackey don't really have the skills. Especially when they don't have any long-term security to rely on. It means everything will be done in view of short-term results. We've seen this a couple of times over the past 7 years.

- Avoid getting & playing academy grads and other young talents & giving them the opportunity to grow.
- Overpay for players, especially aging "results now" players.
- Blow whatever you got for short-term results: allocation money; draft pics/allocation order/etc; international spots; whatever else you can think of.
- Time-bomb contracts that increase in future years & screw us then (e.g., Barrett).
- Verbal promises "That's all I can offer you this year, but next year we'll boost your salary, just trust me."
- Overplay certain players, despite nagging injuries or folks just needing a break.
- Avoid building skills, a certain style, or any other strategy geared more towards long-term growth.
- Yell & scream alot.
- Every player you sign, knows from the beginning that Coach & Coch are on a one-year leash. Good chance there will be new coaches/new philosophy/new whatever within a year, and lots of stress in the meantime. What good player is going to want sign in that atmosphere, with no guarantee of stability? Unless you're really willing to overpay. Their agents will know you're desperate.
- All in all, screw the next couple of years so you can squeak into the playoffs.
So if they fail, Anselmi gets to fire Mariner & Cochrane next year, but Anselmi again keeps his job?

or we are finally the toronto maple leafs.......overpaid, no superstars,...where players come to retire/or collect$$$

Whoop
09-18-2012, 09:45 PM
When is Eckersley's contract due?

Richard
09-18-2012, 10:06 PM
It wasn't a question of whether they were spending the most in the league on these things - it was a question of whether they were running the team "on the cheap". And it completely disregards what I said about the massive expansion in our scouting staff.

And yes, I know that we are spending less on payroll now than we were ten years ago (even factoring in the draft). Stoeten did a story on this about a week ago on Drunk Jays Fans, after AA claimed that payroll had been "steadily increasing every year" to a reporter. The difference between 10 years ago and now, is that AA/Beeston had generally been pretty frank about the fact that they wanted to redouble scouting and drafting efforts, rebuild the farm system, and then add a FA or two when the time was right. The disagreement with some fans and media has been on what the "right time" is.

And of course, a real, unavoidable test is going to come up when guys like Brett Lawrie are knocking on the door for their big, fat contract extensions.

So yes, they've been thrifty when it comes to payroll, so far (in some cases smartly, in other cases... not so much). But they aren't running the team "on the cheap". And personally, I think this winter is going to be a turning point for Rogers to either put up, or shut up, as it pertains to the Blue Jays.

- Scott

To me the right time is "All the time". If a player is available of elite caliber you always make the push to get them, my problem is the notion of not getting player X because were not projecting to compete this year, next year, year after etc....

We have the marketplace to support a team with a larger payroll close to NY or Boston, i dont like how its treated like a small market team

Anyways this is off topic so we shouldnt discuss this here.

maninb
09-19-2012, 08:07 AM
"Very good news as far as I'm concerned. Should provide some well-needed stability"...nfitz

Are you FUCKING kidding me????? Stability?? It's just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!!! PM & EC are ABYSMALLY INCOMPETENT and if you can't see that by now, then God help ya...

Beach_Red
09-19-2012, 08:16 AM
To me the right time is "All the time". If a player is available of elite caliber you always make the push to get them, my problem is the notion of not getting player X because were not projecting to compete this year, next year, year after etc....

We have the marketplace to support a team with a larger payroll close to NY or Boston, i dont like how its treated like a small market team

Anyways this is off topic so we shouldnt discuss this here.

Yeah, it's off topic, but it does speak to a management attitude that we also have to deal with when it comes to TFC - this idea that there may or may not be "a right time." The problem is that there is always another team (or four or five or ten other teams) that it is "the right time for" now. Management here always seems to operate in some kind of a bubble as though they expect the rest of the league to wait for them while they get it together.

jabbronies
09-19-2012, 08:20 AM
If this is true, I can't wait for the press conference where they explain their justification. What have Mariner or Cochrane done to demonstrate that they deserve another year - even one with a clear ultimatum?

Mariner's one claim to fame with TFC was the incredible feat of winning three games in a row. Cochrane's claim to fame is...? After seven years, declining ticket sales and ST renewals, and extreme fan anger/apathy, they determined this was the wisest course of action?



Give Cochrane more credit than that. Wasn't he in charge of player relations. He drove many a player out of this town and had them unsure out whether they were staying or going.

narduch
09-19-2012, 08:44 AM
Given how many managers we've gone through over the years, I don't think that's true. I think he has no problem making decisions - he just has a proclivity for making terrible ones.

But whatever, at this point we are just haggling over why exactly he's so awful, haha. :D

- Scott

But Anselmi wasn't involved in the hiring/firing of the first set of managers, except for Mo Johnston.

Anselmi waited too long to get rid of Mo. And now he's repeating that mistake with Mariner + Cochrane.

I just hope for the sake of the club that they are already searching for the new management hires that they will be needing to make next summer.

narduch
09-19-2012, 08:48 AM
By the way, there is a rumour going around on twitter that TFC is interested in trading its 1st rounder for Sam Cronin.

Those are the types of moves we should expect from a management team that are going to do everything to keep their jobs.

I want to say the Mariner + Cochrane news is the low point for this club, but everytime I think that, it sinks lower.

tfcleeds
09-19-2012, 09:01 AM
This club keeps on finding new ways to define the term "nadir". It's unbelievable really.

narduch
09-19-2012, 09:05 AM
This club keeps on finding new ways to define the term "nadir". It's unbelievable really.

LOL. That is the first name of one of MLSE's new Board of Directors? (from Rogers)

tfcleeds
09-19-2012, 09:11 AM
^Yeah, he's the CEO of Rogers. I've found that to be somewhat amusing.

TOBOR !
09-19-2012, 09:14 AM
By the way, there is a rumour going around on twitter that TFC is interested in trading its 1st rounder for Sam Cronin.

Those are the types of moves we should expect from a management team that are going to do everything to keep their jobs.

I want to say the Mariner + Cochrane news is the low point for this club, but everytime I think that, it sinks lower.

Sam Cronin should want nothing to do with this club.

narduch
09-19-2012, 09:20 AM
I can picture TFC becomming the new Chivas. Perenially bad playing to shitty crowds. While the rest of the league leaves both teams in the dust.

I really thing the league is seperating into the good and bad teams, and TFC is being left behind.

jabbronies
09-19-2012, 09:32 AM
By the way, there is a rumour going around on twitter that TFC is interested in trading its 1st rounder for Sam Cronin.

Those are the types of moves we should expect from a management team that are going to do everything to keep their jobs.

I want to say the Mariner + Cochrane news is the low point for this club, but everytime I think that, it sinks lower.

So Sam Cronin has cost TFC 2 first round picks. One second overall pick to draft him into the league and one first round pick to bring him back to Toronto.

narduch
09-19-2012, 09:35 AM
So Sam Cronin has cost TFC 2 first round picks. One second overall pick to draft him into the league and one first round pick to bring him back to Toronto.

To be fair, this is still just a rumour. But I do think its the type of moves we should be seeing with Mariner + Cochrane's jobs on the line. Win now at all costs.

At this point, I don't think 10 years with no playoffs is out of the question. Until I see otherwise I don't see how things will improve. Even after Mariner+Cochrane are done the cupboard will be so bare it will take a few years to recover.

Suds
09-19-2012, 09:36 AM
I can picture TFC becomming the new Chivas. Perenially bad playing to shitty crowds. While the rest of the league leaves both teams in the dust.

I really thing the league is seperating into the good and bad teams, and TFC is being left behind.

In a salary cap league the differentiators will be coaching, scouting, and other key organization members. You cannot spend your way out of bad decisions by overpaying for players. MLSE has proven they are not very good in leagues where the playing field has been leveled.

We are being beaten off the field in so many aspects right now that it is directly impacting our on-field performance. So you are correct, there will be well run organizations that will succeed year in and year out. The rest are those that are not well run and will hope for the "cycle" to come around to their time to win or just have the one-off seasons of luck that get us some success.

Until we fix the off-field fiasco we will not have long term sustained success.

jabbronies
09-19-2012, 09:36 AM
To be fair, this is still just a rumour. But I do think its the type of moves we should be seeing with Mariner + Cochrane's jobs on the line. Win now at all costs.

At this point, I don't think 10 years with no playoffs is out of the question. Until I see otherwise I don't see how things will improve. Even after Mariner+Cochrane are done the cupboard will be so bare it will take a few years to recover.

I would be surprised if San Jose let go of Cronin that easily.

narduch
09-19-2012, 09:39 AM
I would be surprised if San Jose let go of Cronin that easily.

Not sure what his contract situation is though. Maybe he wants too much money?

Nerepis
09-19-2012, 09:50 AM
The following is a quote from Frings off his Facebook page:

Torsten Frings (http://www.facebook.com/XXII.Frings?ref=stream)


Hi Leute,
vorab erst mal vielen Dank für die zahlreichen Genesungswünsche! Da mich so viele Fragen zu meiner Zukunft erreicht haben, möchte ich Euch hiermit mitteilen: Die OP verlief ohne Nachwirkungen. Ich habe jetzt ein paar Monate Reha vor mir und werde pünktlich zur nächsten Saison wieder topfit sein. Da will ich nochmal voll mit dem Team angreifen! Ich komme aber zuvor schon im Oktober wieder nach Toronto, auch um als Kapitän zum Saisonabschluss beim Team und Euch Fans zu sein. Es ist für alle keine leichte Zeit. Weder für den Club, das Team noch für unseren Coach. Paul Mariner übernahm unsere Mannschaft am Tiefpunkt und das war keine dankbare Aufgabe. Doch wir stehen als Mannschaft hinter ihm und werden da auch gemeinsam wieder rauskommen, denn der Zusammenhalt ist da.
Euer Torsten

Hi,
first of all many thanks for all the get well wishes! I received many questions about my future that makes me to say the following: The operation was fine and now I need some months for my rehab. I will be 100% fit to attac next season again. But before I will come back to Toronto in October to be as a captain with my team and our fans for the saisons final. It is a hard time for everyone at the moment. For the club, the team and our coach. Paul Mariner took over the team on the bottom and this was a unrewarding assignment. But the whole team is behind him and we stand this together, cause the solidarity is given in a good way.
Torsten

ManUtd4ever
09-19-2012, 10:06 AM
I initially gave Mariner the benefit of the doubt when he was promoted, but over an ample period of time, he has demonstrated that he is incapable of leading this team to the promised land.

I think retaining Mariner and Cochrane would be a terrible mistake on the part of the FO at an absolutely crucial juncture for the organization.

nfitz
09-19-2012, 10:29 AM
Are you FUCKING kidding me?????No I'm not kidding. I 100% disagree with you ... well about PM at least. I've said same about EC for a long time, but now that we have both of their heads ready to be served on a platter in a matter of months, I'm willing to let it simmer nicely for a while.

DangerRed
09-19-2012, 10:31 AM
Great. So the headline really should be "Mariner, Cochrane to be fired at end of 2013 season" since that's the net-net result.

Enjoy renewing your seats!

nfitz
09-19-2012, 10:50 AM
Enjoy renewing your seats!Thanks, I will! It's an offer I can't refuse at less than $17 a game + HST (presuming there is no reduction or discount). Might even add a seat.

tfcleeds
09-19-2012, 10:57 AM
I figure I can watch the dreck that will be on offer next season for free. Buying my beer from the LCBO will be way cheaper too.

ryan
09-19-2012, 11:04 AM
Thanks, I will! It's an offer I can't refuse at less than $17 a game + HST (presuming there is no reduction or discount). Might even add a seat.

I'll just wait for Travelzoo to offer me the same prices! But no commitment. ;)


Enjoy your free scarf bro.

scooter
09-19-2012, 11:10 AM
next year should be great
mariner will have a full preseason
frings and koover will be back
less of a turnover we hope
cant wait to renew my seasons and pay with tfc mastercard and get a free game day jersey

get ready for next year boys and girls its going to be the best yet

starter
09-19-2012, 11:37 AM
Earl during his interview was making noises about staying the course, layed out 2 years ago ( I assume by Klinsmann ) . I wonder how the product on the field ( or some unidentified yet direction Mariner is moving ) is related to the PLAN?

scooter
09-19-2012, 11:47 AM
Earl during his interview was making noises about staying the course, layed out 2 years ago ( I assume by Klinsmann ) . I wonder how the product on the field ( or some unidentified yet direction Mariner is moving ) is related to the PLAN?

plans change

DangerRed
09-19-2012, 11:51 AM
Thanks, I will! It's an offer I can't refuse at less than $17 a game + HST (presuming there is no reduction or discount). Might even add a seat.

Bahahaha. Cool story bro. As someone else said, enjoy the free scarf.

ryan
09-19-2012, 11:52 AM
lol. there is no plan you gullible fools. :)


How can there be a plan, when every time they "stick to the plan"...they do something different?

Unless of course the plan is, every time we have a decision to make, flip a coin!

starter
09-19-2012, 11:52 AM
plans change

I must say you have definitely addressed all of my concerns. Where is the line here to buy STs?

nfitz
09-19-2012, 11:53 AM
As someone else said, enjoy the free scarf.Indeed I will! And if it all goes badly next year, I think I have enough of them now to hang myself.

v00d00daddy
09-19-2012, 11:59 AM
Earl during his interview was making noises about staying the course, layed out 2 years ago ( I assume by Klinsmann ) . I wonder how the product on the field ( or some unidentified yet direction Mariner is moving ) is related to the PLAN?

I caught that and wondered the same thing. Does cochrane want to continue with the possession based, attacking style plan? Does Mariner?

Current behaviour indicates that they do not.



plans change

So they totally overhaul the team...from philosophy to style of play...so much so that the new direction is what they sold us at renewal time....and a year and half later it's just "changed".


And you're okay with this?

I'm sorry people...but those who have faith that this group of men running the show can:

-get anything accomplished in terms of on field success

And

-will tell you the truth about the future direction of the club

Well...plainly...you're being foolish.

Now...if you understand the pitfalls and are willing to endure them...fine. To each their own.

But if you think they're at all competent or stand up guys...give your head a shake.

They're men who have no problem lying to protect themselves AND have shown little to no sense when it comes to actual football.

It's a scary scary combo.

Chevy
09-19-2012, 12:05 PM
On the one hand I like a directive that says - we are about winning. If you don't win, you're gone.

However, as Auzzy points out above, we know where this will lead. Decisions will be made for short-term gain to save jobs an squeak into the playoffs. This will just result in long-term pain. I see year 7 as a year of I told you so comments from the camp backing Mariner. Year 8 - the I told you so from the anti-Mariner camp when we drop back to crap because we blew out wad to save face for one year. That kind of decision making will not lead to consistent results.

I hope to hell I'm dead wrong.

What I would like to see is someone stand up and say "If we don't win, I'M gone." Specifically any one or more of Mariner, Anselmi or Cock taking some ownership would be perfect. We have tried the expansion scrub approach. Failed. The home town boys approach with JDG/Serioux/YouKnowWho. Failed. The total rebuild/Academy/4-3-3 system route. The Multi-DP route with Koevs/Frings/JDG/Hassli. Failed. The Austin 'No-Pants' Powers approach. Failing badly.

What's the constant here? Club Leadership.

ryan
09-19-2012, 12:12 PM
What I would like to see is someone stand up and say "If we don't win, I'M gone." Specifically any one or more of Mariner, Anselmi or Cock taking some ownership would be perfect. We have tried the expansion scrub approach. Failed. The home town boys approach with JDG/Serioux/YouKnowWho. Failed. The total rebuild/Academy/4-3-3 system route. The Multi-DP route with Koevs/Frings/JDG/Hassli. Failed. The Austin 'No-Pants' Powers approach. Failing badly.

What's the constant here? Club Leadership.

I don't think we should leave based on Win's and Losses, I don't agree with it at all.

We should leave because we've been lied to, because they charge more than they should, because they don't support supporters, because they make terribly bad decision after decision and deserve to be canned. All of them.


Win or lose, I care, but it's not what breaks me. This fucking bullshit FO, breaks me.

Beach_Red
09-19-2012, 12:14 PM
I caught that and wondered the same thing. Does cochrane want to continue with the possession based, attacking style plan? Does Mariner?

Current behaviour indicates that they do not.




So they totally overhaul the team...from philosophy to style of play...so much so that the new direction is what they sold us at renewal time....and a year and half later it's just "changed".


And you're okay with this?

I'm sorry people...but those who have faith that this group of men running the show can:

-get anything accomplished in terms of on field success

And

-will tell you the truth about the future direction of the club

Well...plainly...you're being foolish.

Now...if you understand the pitfalls and are willing to endure them...fine. To each their own.

But if you think they're at all competent or stand up guys...give your head a shake.

They're men who have no problem lying to protect themselves AND have shown little to no sense when it comes to actual football.

It's a scary scary combo.

From what we've seen so far it really seems that the Mariner-Cochrane combo sinply can't sign the players they need for the "Klinsmann plan." And with the kind of thing Mariner said to JDG when he got rid of him any agent whose player has another option will probably take that instead.

It will be very interesting to see what players these guys sign. Right now the plan is probably for Kouvermans, Frings and Hassli to come back next year, but if two or three of them don't is there any reason to think this management team will be able to sign another DP?

Ajax TFC
09-19-2012, 12:32 PM
Earl during his interview was making noises about staying the course, layed out 2 years ago ( I assume by Klinsmann ) . I wonder how the product on the field ( or some unidentified yet direction Mariner is moving ) is related to the PLAN?
Clearly the plan all along was to build a possession based team to make the transition to hoofball smoother :facepalm:

I caught that and wondered the same thing. Does cochrane want to continue with the possession based, attacking style plan? Does Mariner?

Current behaviour indicates that they do not.

Does Cockrane even know what possession football is, or even that Mariner changed the style? I'm not even joking. There's nothing in his background that would suggest that he knows anything about the game itself, and making statements like this support that. And this is the guy who's going to be the GM next year

Ajax TFC
09-19-2012, 12:34 PM
It will be very interesting to see what players these guys sign. Right now the plan is probably for Kouvermans, Frings and Hassli to come back next year, but if two or three of them don't is there any reason to think this management team will be able to sign another DP?
They'll just trade a pick or two (or Avila and the rights to Plata) for another team's DP

Canary10
09-19-2012, 12:39 PM
Wow, gone for a few days and we get this, and the JDG comments. Never dull is it?

I'm the first to say Mariner is shit and should go. I've said that since he was signed, and I'd still rather see him fired at the end of the season than carry on in this cul de sac we are in.

BUT, if this story from Duane is true, this is bull shit from TFC management. It is not fair to Mariner to have this ultimatum hanging over his head. It will drive all the decisions and (as others have said above) and there will be lots of decisions made that are completely short term. Anselmi really needs to go. It's great that he can hire a hapless coach and President (or whatever Cochrane's position is or will be), then show he can be the tough guy demanding results. Fuck him.

London
09-19-2012, 12:40 PM
I don't think we should leave based on Win's and Losses, I don't agree with it at all.

We should leave because we've been lied to, because they charge more than they should, because they don't support supporters, because they make terribly bad decision after decision and deserve to be canned. All of them.


Win or lose, I care, but it's not what breaks me. This fucking bullshit FO, breaks me.


i think what chevy is saying is the people geting paid to run this club need to take ownership of it and be accountable for the decisions being made

AL-MO
09-19-2012, 06:19 PM
next year should be great
mariner will have a full preseason
frings and koover will be back
less of a turnover we hope
cant wait to renew my seasons and pay with tfc mastercard and get a free game day jersey

get ready for next year boys and girls its going to be the best yet

The sun shines on a dogs balls once a day I guess.

KGH
09-19-2012, 07:45 PM
I wouldn't count on Danny K. being ready until August of next year. Look at the guys who had the same injury last year:

Cann -Surgery July and Returned to action at the end of April. 10 months. It was noted that Cann worked his ass off to get back.

Williams - Surgery July and returned June. 12 months. Normal recovery.

Omar Gonzalez - Surgery mid Jan. Returned end of July. 6 months. But 22 years old.

Danny had his surgery in August. Best case ready for pre-season if he works his ass off. More realistic 10-12 months which would put him mid season. Its all up to him and how bad he wants it.

ag futbol
09-19-2012, 08:03 PM
What I would like to see is someone stand up and say "If we don't win, I'M gone." Specifically any one or more of Mariner, Anselmi or Cock taking some ownership would be perfect. We have tried the expansion scrub approach. Failed. The home town boys approach with JDG/Serioux/YouKnowWho. Failed. The total rebuild/Academy/4-3-3 system route. The Multi-DP route with Koevs/Frings/JDG/Hassli. Failed. The Austin 'No-Pants' Powers approach. Failing badly.

What's the constant here? Club Leadership.
Here, here! Let's get back to basics for a second. What is does the article claim:

1) That EC and PM will be fired if the two don't make the playoffs
2) Source within front office describes the above as "a fair way to put it"

There is all kinds of room for leeway here and CSN has shit the bed a few times on their sources. Remember this is a Duane Rollins article, and while he may have his head way up Mariner's ass, his writing also makes it pretty clear he's a cursory thinker.

This is just another step in the same direction for this club. The team isn't operating in an open and transparent manner. If they were, this would all be done above board and in public. Some may say that's "short term thinking" but one, it's a quantium leap in long term thinking compared to the way we've done things in the past and two, the guys in charge have their hands dirty. They should take their share of blame for previous failures and shouldn't be given a clean slate.

Faced with the same situation Mariner is right now, Frank Klopas was coaching for his job last year and actually turned the team around enough to get the chance to come back. He rewarded their faith and now Chicago is in a playoff spot. I don't see why Mariner should be judged to a different standard yet here it is for all to see. I don't think he's earned the chance to continue.