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deepred
09-16-2012, 06:59 AM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/09/16/de-guzman-takes-aim-tfc-mariner-after-winner-vs-caps

JonO
09-16-2012, 07:28 AM
“I’ll never forget the words of [current TFC manager] Paul Mariner saying that he wants to make sure he’ll send me to a last-place team and let me burn in the heat,”
Wow...

ensco
09-16-2012, 07:33 AM
So, so many of our ex players do this. But I can't get worked about this one. Unlike the rest, this guy collected $5 million and did nothing here. Wouldn't even tackle, most days.

No single event was worse for the team than the JDG signing. If there are bad feelings on all sides, who could be surprised?

Flipityflu
09-16-2012, 07:36 AM
hmmmm....i wonder if thats true. if it is, i wonder what set it off. doesn't really matter since he was next to usless for us, and the majority here were more than happy to see him leave.

Pookie
09-16-2012, 07:40 AM
So, so many of our ex players do this. But I can't get worked about this one. Unlike the rest, this guy collected $5 million and did nothing here. Wouldn't even tackle, most days.

No single event was worse for the team than the JDG signing. If there are bad feelings on all sides, who could be surprised?

Well, I wouldn't dismiss it entirely. When were these comments to JDG expressed?

While Winter was still here? Months before the trade? A day or two before?

Timing is everything. One implies interference. One implies allowing a negative situation to fester and a divide to enter the room.

And regardless of timing, it implies a statement that you wouldn't expect from a player's coach. Does anyone think this adds to our reputation as being a great place to sign and play?

Oldtimer
09-16-2012, 07:50 AM
So, so many of our ex players do this. But I can't get worked about this one. Unlike the rest, this guy collected $5 million and did nothing here. Wouldn't even tackle, most days.



If your boss was trying to get rid of you, how well would you preform?

JDG has come out already to say that all of his coaches, except for one (Cummins?) were trying to get rid of him.

I think the mystery of why JDG did so well in Spain that he was his team's player of the year, and has done so well for Canada that every coach has prominently used him (Stephen Hart has called his play "fantastic"), but has sucked so badly for TFC has finally been solved. No, it wasn't "prekiball." No it wasn't Winter's backline. No, it wasn't that he can't play Mariner's hoofball. It's that his coaches have been constantly trying to dump him.

Suddenly, after he moves to Dallas, his coach is full of his praises, and he scores a wonderful goal, something he couldn't seem to do for TFC.

No mystery there.

Anyway, if so many of our ex-players do this, but it's rare for other clubs, it's not that miraculously TFC only gets players with "bad character." One needs to look no further than the TFC F.O. for the real cause.

flamehawk
09-16-2012, 07:51 AM
However under performing a player is, this type of comment from a manager is just unprofessional. It's completely unacceptable. Who the fuck would want to work under Mariner, let alone MLSE.

ensco
09-16-2012, 07:52 AM
It's no way to conduct yourself, sure. But I am bitter at JDG too, and don't forget, JDG is a multimillionaire with no future in soccer and pretty much nothing to lose. When Cummins or Gerba did this, now that got my attention.

Redcoe15
09-16-2012, 07:54 AM
So much for Mariner being a player's coach. Dick!

London
09-16-2012, 08:08 AM
sweet goal


and mariner is a fucking ass clown

tfcleeds
09-16-2012, 08:10 AM
It's no way to conduct yourself, sure. But I am bitter at JDG too, and don't forget, JDG is a multimillionaire with no future in soccer and pretty much nothing to lose. When Cummins or Gerba did this, now that got my attention.

Sure, JDG sucked for us, and I don't feel too badly for the highest-paid player at this club who did virtually nothing for us. But still, I see this as being a further indictment against the way this club has been, and continues to be, run.

ensco
09-16-2012, 08:10 AM
If your boss was trying to get rid of you, how well would you preform?



JDG non-performed for quite a few others before he got to Mariner.

Oldtimer
09-16-2012, 08:25 AM
JDG non-performed for quite a few others before he got to Mariner.

Not surprising, since everyone except for CC was trying to get rid of his contract.

Remember how he was on the unprotected list every year? He knew.

JonO
09-16-2012, 08:26 AM
I don't think JDG performed as poorly as most people here feel. I also don't think that he was the right signing for us, nor was he worth what we paid. That being said, if Mariner actually said that to DeGuzman, it indicates how messed up our organization is.

ensco
09-16-2012, 08:30 AM
Not surprising, since everyone except for CC was trying to get rid of his contract.

Remember how he was on the unprotected list every year? He knew.

Yes. We're looking at the same thing and coming to opposite conclusions. He could have decided to show any one of those coaches that they were wrong. Instead he collected big paycheques, and didn't even try imo.

Now he scores a goal in Dallas and thinks it proves something? Not for me it doesn't.

Pookie
09-16-2012, 08:42 AM
Yes. We're looking at the same thing and coming to opposite conclusions. He could have decided to show any one of those coaches that they were wrong. Instead he collected big paycheques, and didn't even try imo.

Now he scores a goal in Dallas and thinks it proves something? Not for me it doesn't.

Don't you think it would be just a tiny bit troubling if Winter saw a place for JDG (and he arguably performed better under him) and Mariner made these comments while Winter was still here?

That would reek of sabotage... No?

jimiv
09-16-2012, 09:07 AM
I doubt the conversation started with "I'll send you to a last place team and let you burn in the heat", it was obviously an argument started most likely by a manager wanting to discuss his players performance that went a little to far, however watching this guy for three years not come anywhere close to earning his paycheque I say he deserved it.

He's been waiting two months to use that line, perhaps his performance of late is because of it.

ensco
09-16-2012, 09:10 AM
Don't you think it would be just a tiny bit troubling if Winter saw a place for JDG (and he arguably performed better under him) and Mariner made these comments while Winter was still here?

That would reek of sabotage... No?

That really is not the likely scenario, don't know how/why you guys think it is.

It was most likely said on the way out the door, ie once Mariner knew the destination. It's not like it was obvious where JDG could end up, or even if it would happen, that was tricky with that contract and DP slot.

Pookie
09-16-2012, 09:15 AM
That really is not the likely scenario, don't know how/why you guys think it is.

It was most likely said on the way out the door, ie once Mariner knew the destination. It's not like it was obvious where JDG could end up, or even if it would happen, that was tricky with that contract and DP slot.

If said on the way out the door, sort of ridiculous to single out last place club as if it were a banishment when TFC, at the time of trade, was clearly the worst in the league. Sounds more like something said either early on into the season or prior to the start, IMO.

ag futbol
09-16-2012, 09:17 AM
I'm less concerned about JDG, more concerned about our reputation. I would not be surprised if there were a few generation adidas guys this year who flat out refuse to come here.

We keep saying we can't fall any further, but still find new ways to dig.

ensco
09-16-2012, 09:21 AM
If said on the way out the door, sort of ridiculous to single out last place club as if it were a banishment when TFC, at the time of trade, was clearly the worst in the league.

We agree on this. Disagree on the conclusion one would draw from this. I believe Mariner would easily do this, I base this solely from watching him at close range on the touchline. We all know from actual observation: Mariner is an easy-to-set-off, not -too-clear-thinking-in-the-moment wing nut.

denime
09-16-2012, 09:24 AM
Regardless how bad JDG performed here, JDG is not only player who is happy not to be coached by this idiot; Plata run away too, Soolsma had no problem to leave either, and last one is Frings, I can bet that Koevs will not get healthy for next season if Mariner is still coach.

Mariner thinks he knows this game because he played 150 years ago, and acts like ass in the change room.

This is why Frings after PM throw him under the bus told Mariner to fuck off and that he is not coming back as long drunken Monkey is TFC coach, hip injury came as a nice exit card from TFCircus.

Mariner is classes ass-clown who lost the bench a while ago, there is a handful of players that want to play for him, majority is just waiting for this season to end.


Anselmi FIRE MARINER before there is only 1000 fans per game.

Gazza
09-16-2012, 09:26 AM
If JDG blows the ball 20 yards over the crossbar like he usually does, we're not having this conversation. He scores a rare goal, gets a mic shoved in his face and excitedly takes a shot at the club that tried their best to get rid of his albatross contract which handcuffs a team in a cap league.

He was terrible while here, regardless of the coach, and he hasn't been good for the National Team in years. I cringe when i see JDG penned into the holding role over Will Johnson. He can't mark and he can't tackle and allows the opposition to blow by him on the counter attack.

We all know what a shit show this organization is, but Earl Cochrane, Mo Johnston, Aron Winter or Paul Mariner can't be held responsible for a player who simply forgot how to hold possession, play a simple pass or tackle inferior MLS players. He took the money and ran with it. It's just a shame that while he was running, he couldn't have at least marked an opposing shirt.

Abou Sky
09-16-2012, 09:28 AM
sweet goal


and mariner is a fucking ass clown

What exactly is an ass clown anyway?

bones
09-16-2012, 09:29 AM
JDG is pure class as far as I'm concerned. The man did play in all the different systems that we've tried here in which only Winter's took advantage of his ball control and high level of skill. People even commented on how much better he was playing at that time and that he must have been playing through injury prior to his good play under Winter...no, prior to Winter they were not using him properly. Everyone shit on him because he wasn't a goal scoring, nasty tackling, machine for the $ we paid him. FFS, ML$E wanted to bring in a controlling high skilled player at the time and blew the budget because we sucked balls and had boatloads of $ coming in from the "best fans in the MLS" (wow, how ML$E have killed that one, but I digress). Yes they overpaid and it caused issues, but if you were JDG would you not want to come here and give it your all for the $ they tossed at you???

I had the pleasure of meeting JDG a few times for away games and each and every time he made sure he came over and personally thanked me for coming to the game. We've had a few players over the years that have that attitude and I hate reading shit from people who say he's got no class or he's over paid or crap like that.

I'm a little surprised JDG would make a comment about PM like that but it must have really pissed him to the core.

Fan-effing-tastic goal. We're going to need this from him vs Cuba and Honduras.

Gazza
09-16-2012, 09:31 AM
The only rants i care to hear from about Mariner and the organization are Frings, Koevermans, Frei and Kocic. JDG didn't earn the right, he didn't even earn a fraction of his contract.

Beach_Red
09-16-2012, 09:31 AM
We agree on this. Disagree on the conclusion one would draw from this. I believe Mariner would easily do this, I base this solely from watching him at close range on the touchline. We all know from actual observation: Mariner is an easy-to-set-off, not -too-clear-thinking-in-the-moment wing nut.

Well, never a dull moment with this team.

Yes, Mariner is an emotional wingnut (hey, I just noticed you edited this ;)), but the bigger problem is he has no boss. This has been the problem here from day one, unqualified guys in positions of power with no one watching them. I can't decide if the execs look at TFC the way that woman who owned the Chiefs looked at the team in Slapshot ("It's been so amusing to follow your antics in the paper,") or if they really think the guys they hire can actually run a sports team.

ag futbol
09-16-2012, 09:34 AM
We all know what a shit show this organization is, but Earl Cochrane, Mo Johnston, Aron Winter or Paul Mariner can't be held responsible for a player who simply forgot how to hold possession, play a simple pass or tackle inferior MLS players. He took the money and ran with it. It's just a shame that while he was running, he couldn't have at least marked an opposing shirt.
Well Mo Johnston can, he signed the fucking guy.

Disagree on him not being good for the nats. I think that runs counter to what most would say about his performance.

Gazza
09-16-2012, 09:41 AM
Well Mo Johnston can, he signed the fucking guy.

Disagree on him not being good for the nats. I think that runs counter to what most would say about his performance.

Explain your perspective to me regarding his play for the Nats? (no condescending tone or sarcasm in my question, i am really interested to know what you think). All i see is a guy who gives the ball away then hustles to back track only to completely whiff at the man with the ball.

He pressures the ball very well, but if the opposition knows he's not going to cause them any trouble, they can just side-step him and start an odd-man rush. I see that all of the time. He has no sense of position for his role and can't get stuck in. You look at an understated player like Xabi Alonso who is slow as molasses, but would never be caught out of position, would never swing and miss at the player with the ball, and if the tackle isn't there, he does his best to kill the ball by at least getting in the way of the offensive player.

Beach_Red
09-16-2012, 09:42 AM
The only rants i care to hear from about Mariner and the organization are Frings, Koevermans, Frei and Kocic. JDG didn't earn the right, he didn't even earn a fraction of his contract.

The games are the tip of the iceberg, we don't see everything else. Sure, nothing else matters to us, but it is part of the whole.

denime
09-16-2012, 09:47 AM
The only rants i care to hear from about Mariner and the organization are Frings, Koevermans, Frei and Kocic. JDG didn't earn the right, he didn't even earn a fraction of his contract.
None of those 4 players that you mention will play next year for TFC if Mariner is coach,will you believe than that PM is incompetent coach.

Frings already did it,he told hi to FUCK OFF in front of several TFC players and stuffer,and than left for hip"surgery".

Gazza
09-16-2012, 09:48 AM
Explain your perspective to me regarding his play for the Nats? (no condescending tone or sarcasm in my question, i am really interested to know what you think). All i see is a guy who gives the ball away then hustles to back track only to completely whiff at the man with the ball.

He pressures the ball very well, but if the opposition knows he's not going to cause them any trouble, they can just side-step him and start an odd-man rush. I see that all of the time. He has no sense of position for his role and can't get stuck in. You look at an understated player like Xabi Alonso who is slow as molasses, but would never be caught out of position, would never swing and miss at the player with the ball, and if the tackle isn't there, he does his best to kill the ball by at least getting in the way of the offensive player.

And no i'm not expecting him to be Xabi Alonso, just wishing he would review a bit of video before going out on the field and running around like a chicken with his head cut off. It does us no good, and can only imagine how it makes guys like McKenna feel having to be on their heels trying to decide which players to mark, their own or JDG's missed assignment.

Gazza
09-16-2012, 09:53 AM
None of those 4 players that you mention will play next year for TFC if Mariner is coach,will you believe than that PM is incompetent coach.

Frings already did it,he told hi to FUCK OFF in front of several TFC players and stuffer,and than left for hip"surgery".

Don't mince my words. Paul Mariner is in no way, shape or form a competent coach. My issue is with JDG being an incompetent midfielder.

This muppet show is obvious for all to see. But i take no credence in what JDG has to say regarding the situation. He didn't do himself any favours with his play on the field. He just seems to be passing the blame of his individual demise.

denime
09-16-2012, 10:01 AM
Don't mince my words. Paul Mariner is in no way, shape or form a competent coach. My issue is with JDG being an incompetent midfielder.

This muppet show is obvious for all to see. But i take no credence in what JDG has to say regarding the situation. He didn't do himself any favours with his play on the field. He just seems to be passing the blame of his individual demise.

I do agree with you that JDG did not perform they way we would like to ,but a lot of our anger has to do with his salary,if he was making 200K,no one would complain.
The fact that Mariner is lost,stays,regardless of JDG performance with TFC.

London
09-16-2012, 10:03 AM
What exactly is an ass clown anyway?


1. One whose stupidity and/or ineptitude exceeds the descriptive potential of both the terms ass (http://redpatchboys.ca/define.php?term=ass) and clown (http://redpatchboys.ca/define.php?term=clown) in isolation, and in so doing demands to be referred to as the conjugate of the two

2.A person who by ignorance or stupidity takes up unnecessary amounts of your time.

3.A person who knows absolutly nothing about his job or trade but can tell everyone else how to do it better!!

4. anyone in TFC Front Office

Gazza
09-16-2012, 10:05 AM
No plural needed for TFC FO Ass Clown. They share the slogan "All for One"

ag futbol
09-16-2012, 10:16 AM
And no i'm not expecting him to be Xabi Alonso, just wishing he would review a bit of video before going out on the field and running around like a chicken with his head cut off. It does us no good, and can only imagine how it makes guys like McKenna feel having to be on their heels trying to decide which players to mark, their own or JDG's missed assignment.
Well, I disagree with your assessment of him position-wise. He does get caught the odd time but you have to keep in mind that De Guzman’s responsibilities for the team are much different than Xavi Alonso’s. One is an out-and-out DM who stays at home and usually finds himself playing next to a couple of very attack minded players and the other is more of a south American style volante who steers the play and is usually balanced out by a couple of box-to-box players.

When the field is spread properly, he can spray the ball around to the right places. It soaks up the ball for the team and is the connection between the defending players and the attackers. I think he does it pretty well. Canada would be struggling for possession without him. As far as the defending goes, he’s less of a battering ram these and more of a guy who tries to steer you to places where you’ll lose the ball. It’s not the strong point of his game, but he knows when to take the tactical foul when need be.

Anyway, one man’s opinion. But my general impression is that most fans of the nats are satisfied with his play.

Gazza
09-16-2012, 10:20 AM
Well, I disagree with your assessment of him position-wise. He does get caught the odd time but you have to keep in mind that De Guzman’s responsibilities for the team are much different than Xavi Alonso’s. One is an out-and-out DM who stays at home and usually finds himself playing next to a couple of very attack minded players and the other is more of a south American style volante who steers the play and is usually balanced out by a couple of box-to-box players.

When the field is spread properly, he can spray the ball around to the right places. It soaks up the ball for the team and is the connection between the defending players and the attackers. I think he does it pretty well. Canada would be struggling for possession without him. As far as the defending goes, he’s less of a battering ram these and more of a guy who tries to steer you to places where you’ll lose the ball. It’s not the strong point of his game, but he knows when to take the tactical foul when need be.

Anyway, one man’s opinion. But my general impression is that most fans of the nats are satisfied with his play.

I appreciate your assessment. It's always helpful to get an opposing view. I know he "tries" to spray the ball around, but i rarely see him hit his intended target. On TFC, a lot of that blame can be placed on terrible decision making and movement off the ball by his intended targets, but there's no excuse for it on the national team.

Agree to disagree, but thanks for taking the time to express your point of view.

ensco
09-16-2012, 10:27 AM
Well, never a dull moment with this team.

Yes, Mariner is an emotional wingnut (hey, I just noticed you edited this ;)), but the bigger problem is he has no boss. This has been the problem here from day one, unqualified guys in positions of power with no one watching them. I can't decide if the execs look at TFC the way that woman who owned the Chiefs looked at the team in Slapshot ("It's been so amusing to follow your antics in the paper,") or if they really think the guys they hire can actually run a sports team.

Yes, agree 100%, this is just more evidence of the real problem, and the endlessly derivative nature of these discussions.
This is really an argument about the arrangement of the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Whether JDG was any good or not, is less than nothing now.

denime
09-16-2012, 10:30 AM
1. One whose stupidity and/or ineptitude exceeds the descriptive potential of both the terms ass (http://redpatchboys.ca/define.php?term=ass) and clown (http://redpatchboys.ca/define.php?term=clown) in isolation, and in so doing demands to be referred to as the conjugate of the two

2.A person who by ignorance or stupidity takes up unnecessary amounts of your time.

3.A person who knows absolutly nothing about his job or trade but can tell everyone else how to do it better!!

4. anyone in TFC Front Office
:thumbsup:


No plural needed for TFC FO Ass Clown. They share the slogan "All for One"

SLOW CLAP :hurray:

Blizzard
09-16-2012, 10:52 AM
Well Mo Johnston can, he signed the fucking guy.

Disagree on him not being good for the nats. I think that runs counter to what most would say about his performance.

Ya, he been strong for Canada, no doubt about that. Here in Toronto, he and Frings did well together and from what I've been told, enjoyed their partnership. It would not surprise me at all if the disposal of JDG was another element of the frustration Frings felt here.

AL-MO
09-16-2012, 10:56 AM
4. anyone in TFC Front Office

Yep.

JuliquE
09-16-2012, 11:38 AM
I don't think JDG performed as poorly as most people here feel. I also don't think that he was the right signing for us, nor was he worth what we paid. That being said, if Mariner actually said that to DeGuzman, it indicates how messed up our organization is.
This is everything I want to say. Thanks.

The guy is on the wrong side of thirty and has had niggling injuries, since he got here. It's a little difficult for me to completely turn a blind eye to all of that and simply say he has underperformed.

Factor in the curious points Oldtimer has made and suddenly the picture becomes that bit clearer.

Richard
09-16-2012, 11:48 AM
I dont have much to add as its all be said. If he wants to prove everyone he still has game then he should resign with Dallas, then prove he has what it takes in this league.

DoubleUp
09-16-2012, 12:09 PM
Its true julian is no longer the player he once was for club/country and was overpaid for a role that doesnt really exist in Mls context, but like somebody else mentioned he is a class individual.

What Mariner reportedly said is vindictive and tactless, and just provides scope of the type of individuals running this club.

Makes me sick to my stomach really.

reggie
09-16-2012, 12:16 PM
correct me if im wrong.but was PM let go by a english club after 2 wks on the job.

denime
09-16-2012, 12:19 PM
correct me if im wrong.but was PM let go by a english club after 2 wks on the job.

I'm not sure ,but if it was,good on them,it took their FO 2 weeks to realize what a baboon Mariner is.

Yohan
09-16-2012, 12:33 PM
Mariner was Plymouth manager from Dec 09 to May 10. Plymouth was in administration and financial trouble at the time

reggie
09-16-2012, 12:40 PM
thx...for the info.

West220Side
09-16-2012, 01:00 PM
So, so many of our ex players do this. But I can't get worked about this one. Unlike the rest, this guy collected $5 million and did nothing here. Wouldn't even tackle, most days.

No single event was worse for the team than the JDG signing. If there are bad feelings on all sides, who could be surprised?

This ^

I'm not going to flip-flop because i've been turned sour against our own organization.
De Guzman was poor at best when he was here, and only had brief flashes of good play. I would've said the same shit to him. Wasn't worth what we paid him, and held the team back in $$$, and probably stirred the entire De Ro situation with his paycheque.
Can see De Ro saying "If i'm scoring all the goals, and he's playing like that, why can't I be a DP?"

Cashcleaner
09-16-2012, 01:02 PM
Its true julian is no longer the player he once was for club/country and was overpaid for a role that doesnt really exist in Mls context, but like somebody else mentioned he is a class individual.

What Mariner reportedly said is vindictive and tactless, and just provides scope of the type of individuals running this club.

Makes me sick to my stomach really.

Agreed. JDG's performance should have no bearing on whether or not we should believe him when he makes these remarks. It's just one more negative testimony of many, in fact.

ensco
09-16-2012, 01:11 PM
This is what we call the "bad company" problem in the investment business. Somebody you generally don't respect winds up saying something you totally agree with.

(An example. Two years ago, when opposing the Fed was a deeply contrarian opinion, someone I generally have no respect for rode into the debate, making total sense .....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/08/palin-tells-bernanke-cease-desist-_n_780419.html)

AdamAM
09-16-2012, 01:39 PM
When I read the comments about Mariner saying for him to burn in the heat and go to a last place team, my eyes literally bulged out of my head. This is ridiculous, the smallest amount of respect I had for Mariner is now gone. This guy needs to go. No tactics, players out of the right position, a clown on the sidelines, and an asshole. Not going to another TFC game until he's gone.

reggie
09-16-2012, 01:53 PM
im with you on that,my seats hv been empty the last 3 games and i will not go to another tfc game until the coch and drunk are gone.

Lumpy
09-16-2012, 01:57 PM
I am starting to like Mariner after that quote(not his game tactics though). I guess it's been a long time since JDG has been a hero so he felt he had the right to yap off.

nfitz
09-16-2012, 02:05 PM
What Mariner reportedly said is vindictive and tactless, and just provides scope of the type of individuals running this club.Because Julian DeGuzman is suddenly a reliable source of information? Presumably Mariner didn't just walk up to him one day and say that out-of-the-blue? What did DeGuzman say first?

Many here have said much worse about DeGuzman ... but we finally have a coach who'll speak his mind, and he says something negative, and you all want to hang him for it? Give me a break. You've all made up your minds based on gossip and innuendo, and aren't willing to entertain other opinions.

Brooker
09-16-2012, 02:30 PM
Haha keep it classy, JDG. Just shows what kind of guy he is. What a little tattle tale. Go throw another party you dickhead.

Jeff s
09-16-2012, 02:33 PM
Players like Frings and Soolsma didn't have a problem leaving. I'm sure the subs are happy to be given a chance to "fight for their jobs" when Mariner is afraid to make a single sub, and this guy has no problem throwing players under the bus every week. It's never his fault.

Now you have this quote. I mean, what more can you say about this guy?

ag futbol
09-16-2012, 03:00 PM
Because Julian DeGuzman is suddenly a reliable source of information? Presumably Mariner didn't just walk up to him one day and say that out-of-the-blue? What did DeGuzman say first?

Many here have said much worse about DeGuzman ... but we finally have a coach who'll speak his mind, and he says something negative, and you all want to hang him for it? Give me a break. You've all made up your minds based on gossip and innuendo, and aren't willing to entertain other opinions.
I think we can all connect the dots on the page.

JDG's statements in isolation... Not enough. The history of management at this team and the frequency which people speak out about it is damning.

reggie
09-16-2012, 03:11 PM
i really dont care what he said about JDG...i dont like his tactics and his demeanor on the sidelines,it is embarrassing.
its just a matter of time before the players tune him out.

nfitz
09-16-2012, 03:11 PM
I think we can all connect the dots on the page.

JDG's statements in isolation... Not enough. The history of management at this team and the frequency which people speak out about it is damning.So where were all this blame the club for anything people when I put the blame on losing DeRo on the way the club had managed him, rather than on DeRo?

narduch
09-16-2012, 03:14 PM
So where were all this blame the club for anything people when I put the blame on losing DeRo on the way the club had managed him, rather than on DeRo?

I was right there, blaming the club for the De Ro situation. I still do.

This club is one massive clussterfuck. How people continue to be apologists for the way its run is mind boggling.

ensco
09-16-2012, 03:16 PM
So where were all this blame the club for anything people when I put the blame on losing DeRo on the way the club had managed him, rather than on DeRo?

You are misremembering the way it was. There were dozens in both camps in the Dero saga, and dozens more in the middle..

Fort York Redcoat
09-16-2012, 03:28 PM
This "airing of dirty laundry" does nothing for any parties reputation.

jloome
09-16-2012, 03:54 PM
This is what we call the "bad company" problem in the investment business. Somebody you generally don't respect winds up saying something you totally agree with.

(An example. Two years ago, when opposing the Fed was a deeply contrarian opinion, someone I generally have no respect for rode into the debate, making total sense .....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/08/palin-tells-bernanke-cease-desist-_n_780419.html)

Of course, it's being objectively rational, which should always dominate any discussion of best practices. I try to ignore what I think of the source at all times. It often has little to do with what they're saying, which I'm gonna have to check out anyway. I've had the worst lying piece of shit criminal scumbag give me a solid tip; I've had the most honest, upstanding people you ever met lie directly to my face and get caught.

Impressions of character are bad predictors of accuracy, because we never judge character solely on intellectual capability. In fact, some peoples' noxious personalities make it hard to assess their intelligence at all. I could be having lunch in the cafeteria downstairs in my building with a guy so vexing I want to strangle him with a shoelace, and if those annoying traits mean no one ever listens to him, they might never find out that he's got brilliant theories floating around up there.

Ah well....

Here's what I will say: if what DeGuzman says is true, it takes a certain degree of malice and arrogance for a manager to behave that way in a professional environment. This is not Sir Alex getting pissed off and throwing a cleat in anger at Sexy Becksy, this is a 59-year-old manager telling a departing player "Fuck you, I'm going to make your life shit, because I can."

Doesn't matter what his reasons were or what a useless cunt Julian was when here, that's unacceptable behavior from a club manager. Seriously, they should sack his ass. What player, hearing this, will ever want to play for this guy?

PAOK17
09-16-2012, 03:57 PM
The problem with a salary capped league is that fans will never judge on performance alone but instead on performance per dollar spent. The salary he received was due to TFC way overvaluing him. The scouting team probably didn't even look at his last performances in Spain and just signed him based on hype. He never put a gun to MoJo's head and said "sign me for X."

In this league there is always players who will seem overpaid (ie De Guzman) or underpaid (ie Wondolowski). Remove the salary cap or ignoring his contract and you'd still rate him as one of our top 5 of many midfielders all time. Would we be having this conversation if he was getting Dunfield's contract? Even when he was being benched before the trade we were all begging for him to be in the line up instead of Dunfield and whoever else Mariner had on.

Furthermore, has there ever been a team to have such negative comments from former players? Even if you hate De Guzman, these comments can only be seen as bad for the team's reputation. Ok De Guzman should have played better. Gordon shouldn't have been injured. Dichio shouldn't have been too old. De Rosario should have kept quiet. I could sit here and write every grievance the players here had. At the end of the day, TFC and MLSE have to stop looking at it as individual players being sour grapes and instead consider that there is a damaging trend that has been going on here for years!

DangerRed
09-16-2012, 04:44 PM
JDG = junk (at TFC). Mariner = also junk.

What else is there to say about this?

jabbronies
09-16-2012, 05:06 PM
I believe JDG on this one. Mariner is the type to crap on the players in classless fashion, especially in public.
He made a comment today at the coaches session basically calling the players a bunch of idiots in his intro to the day. I wish I could remember the exact phrase.

Ajax TFC
09-16-2012, 06:24 PM
Regardless how bad JDG performed here, JDG is not only player who is happy not to be coached by this idiot; Plata run away too, Soolsma had no problem to leave either, and last one is Frings, I can bet that Koevs will not get healthy for next season if Mariner is still coach.

Mariner thinks he knows this game because he played 150 years ago, and acts like ass in the change room.

This is why Frings after PM throw him under the bus told Mariner to fuck off and that he is not coming back as long drunken Monkey is TFC coach, hip injury came as a nice exit card from TFCircus.

Mariner is classes ass-clown who lost the bench a while ago, there is a handful of players that want to play for him, majority is just waiting for this season to end.


Anselmi FIRE MARINER before there is only 1000 fans per game.
I don't doubt this for one second. How did you find out about this?
I guess Frings figures that the worst that can happen is that he gets his contract bought out and doesn't have to play for that ass and can go coach at Bremen. Or he gets benched and he doesn't have to play for that idiot anymore. Or he gets his contract terminated and he gets to go back home. Best thing that happens is Mariner gets fired and Frings stays here.

Ya, he been strong for Canada, no doubt about that. Here in Toronto, he and Frings did well together and from what I've been told, enjoyed their partnership. It would not surprise me at all if the disposal of JDG was another element of the frustration Frings felt here.
Would you rather play next to someone who can play football or someone slower than yourself who boots the ball aimlessly and can't even tackle well? If I were Frings I would be insulted to have to play next to Dunfield

spe18
09-16-2012, 07:04 PM
None of those 4 players that you mention will play next year for TFC if Mariner is coach,will you believe than that PM is incompetent coach.

Frings already did it,he told hi to FUCK OFF in front of several TFC players and stuffer,and than left for hip"surgery".

Now do we really know if this happened for a fact? :)

PozeshnMatters
09-16-2012, 07:34 PM
I believe JDG on this one. Mariner is the type to crap on the players in classless fashion, especially in public.
He made a comment today at the coaches session basically calling the players a bunch of idiots in his intro to the day. I wish I could remember the exact phrase.

"sorry my voice is a little hoarse today, yesterday i was out here on the field yelling at these idiots"

way to set the tone, followed up by various sarcastic remarks by Mariner again, Brennan and others. who fosters this unprofessional and negative atmosphere...?

Jason Bent's session was excellent, just like it was last year when he did the pattern-passing (way better than Brennan's passing session today). lost count how many times Bent made comments like "they can't score when we have the ball", "maintain possession" etc. meanwhile look at our first team, lucky if they get above 45% possession under Mariner... so funny, but so sad... i left after Bent's session, as i was completely underwhelmed by the tone of the whole event. very unprofessional, with side-bar sarcastic remarks all over the place, is this how they run the academy always? why were Rongen and BDK absent? Bent's session and demeanor were professional, the rest was a joke.

long-time fan, board-lurker, felt i should second jabbronies' post. not renewing, and today's open house confirmed it.

Richard
09-16-2012, 07:38 PM
"sorry my voice is a little hoarse today, yesterday i was out here on the field yelling at these idiots"

way to set the tone, followed up by various sarcastic remarks by Mariner again, Brennan and others. who fosters this unprofessional and negative atmosphere...?

Jason Bent's session was excellent, just like it was last year when he did the pattern-passing (way better than Brennan's passing session today). lost count how many times Bent made comments like "they can't score when we have the ball", "maintain possession" etc. meanwhile look at our first team, lucky if they get above 45% possession under Mariner... so funny, but so sad... i left after Bent's session, as i was completely underwhelmed by the tone of the whole event. very unprofessional, with side-bar sarcastic remarks all over the place, is this how they run the academy always? why were Rongen and BDK absent? Bent's session and demeanor were professional, the rest was a joke.

long-time fan, board-lurker, felt i should second jabbronies' post. not renewing, and today's open house confirmed it.

Well if he said that then its pretty much confirms he should be exiting TFC no? Unless he is so arrogant and Anselmi so incompotent he cant see the negativity around him.

TFC Cityboy
09-16-2012, 07:42 PM
"sorry my voice is a little hoarse today, yesterday i was out here on the field yelling at these idiots"

way to set the tone, followed up by various sarcastic remarks by Mariner again, Brennan and others. who fosters this unprofessional and negative atmosphere...?

Jason Bent's session was excellent, just like it was last year when he did the pattern-passing (way better than Brennan's passing session today). lost count how many times Bent made comments like "they can't score when we have the ball", "maintain possession" etc. meanwhile look at our first team, lucky if they get above 45% possession under Mariner... so funny, but so sad... i left after Bent's session, as i was completely underwhelmed by the tone of the whole event. very unprofessional, with side-bar sarcastic remarks all over the place, is this how they run the academy always? why were Rongen and BDK absent? Bent's session and demeanor were professional, the rest was a joke.

long-time fan, board-lurker, felt i should second jabbronies' post. not renewing, and today's open house confirmed it.

WOW...this joker has lost the friggin plot. Get rid.

ag futbol
09-16-2012, 07:43 PM
"sorry my voice is a little hoarse today, yesterday i was out here on the field yelling at these idiots"

Absolutely disgusting.

Even Mo Johnston didn't stoop to that level.

Auzzy
09-16-2012, 07:53 PM
"sorry my voice is a little hoarse today, yesterday i was out here on the field yelling at these idiots"

way to set the tone, followed up by various sarcastic remarks by Mariner again, Brennan and others. who fosters this unprofessional and negative atmosphere...?

Jason Bent's session was excellent, just like it was last year when he did the pattern-passing (way better than Brennan's passing session today). lost count how many times Bent made comments like "they can't score when we have the ball", "maintain possession" etc. meanwhile look at our first team, lucky if they get above 45% possession under Mariner... so funny, but so sad... i left after Bent's session, as i was completely underwhelmed by the tone of the whole event. very unprofessional, with side-bar sarcastic remarks all over the place, is this how they run the academy always? why were Rongen and BDK absent? Bent's session and demeanor were professional, the rest was a joke.

long-time fan, board-lurker, felt i should second jabbronies' post. not renewing, and today's open house confirmed it.

OMFG that's unbelievable. I wonder if anyone got a clip of that on their iPhone? Recently I thought that Mariner will definitely be back next season, especially after the Anselmi promotion & Anselmi's idiotic interview comments. But now I'm starting to wonder if Mariner knows he's lost the players & the games, renewals are going to tank, and the club will have to sacrifice somebody in order to pretend like they're doing something.

Incredible that Rongen wasn't there. And the whole schmozzle between Academy & first team: on-the-ground passing & maintain possession; or not?????

Ajax TFC
09-16-2012, 08:02 PM
Have the supporters ever actually made it clear that they want the likes of Cock gone? Because if that demand isn't made he will be the one picking the next TFC coach even though he was the one who hired this one. I think the supporters groups are now in a position to start making demands about the way the team is run in the future.

ag futbol
09-16-2012, 08:04 PM
I think we should write an open letter to the club, and say something about what we're seeing here. It will probably be articulately acknowledged and then played down, but if anything it might serve to educate the casual fan following along (because we know the press won't do it). If things go south, maybe people remember what was written and then discussions about accountability can be more than just about the head coach.

And let me say that amongst all that crap, it is good to know there is still someone like Jason Bent working for this club, who is actually a good coach and not completely full of shit.

Ajax TFC
09-16-2012, 08:21 PM
I wouldn't mind if they (the new president aka Rongen) promoted Bent to head coach. I like what I'm hearing here about what he says.

Beach_Red
09-16-2012, 08:25 PM
I think we should write an open letter to the club, and say something about what we're seeing here. It will probably be articulately acknowledged and then played down, but if anything it might serve to educate the casual fan following along (because we know the press won't do it). If things go south, maybe people remember what was written and then discussions about accountability can be more than just about the head coach.

And let me say that amongst all that crap, it is good to know there is still someone like Jason Bent working for this club, who is actually a good coach and not completely full of shit.

An open letter is a great idea. Simply a call for quality management. Sure, it would be acknowledged and then played down, but it's still very much worth doing.

Yohan
09-16-2012, 08:52 PM
Wow. Mariner just Preki'd himself

nfitz
09-16-2012, 09:00 PM
... a guy like Mariner.A guy like Mariner? What does that mean. Sure, debate his football coaching skill, and ability to lead the club. But what do you mean by "a guy like Mariner"? Seems to speak his mind to me. Is that a terrible thing?

And can someone pass me a link to all the terrible things that Mariner said about DeGuzman that seems to give JDG free rein to go around the country bad-mouthing his old team?

Auzzy
09-16-2012, 09:06 PM
Oh is it the spin cycle already? I thought we were still on rinse.

Forget JDG if you want. Did you see the quote above, from the coach's open house? Confirmed by two here who were personally present, and likely heard by many others who can confirm. The guy seems to be going off the deep end.

"sorry my voice is a little hoarse today, yesterday i was out here on the field yelling at these idiots"

The coach is bad-mouthing current players, in a public forum. Maybe it's supposed to be funny/sarcastic. But there's no room for sarcasm like that in a public forum, not when the team is doing so poorly, morale among the team & fans is so low, Mariner is making so many bizarre decisions, but doesn't seem to see himself as part of the problem. Only the players are idiots (in his mind).

Auzzy
09-16-2012, 09:17 PM
If all these quotes are really true, I wonder if/when Mariner will start going off on the fans. Seems the next logical step. He already did the "up yours" a while ago, but who knows exactly who that was aimed at. Wonder if we will be getting some pithy quotes about us idiot fans soon.

TFC Cityboy
09-16-2012, 09:20 PM
just tweeted that quote "PM at CoachingDay today"sorry my voice is a little hoarse today, yesterday i was out here on the field yelling at these idiots" to all the TFC players I follow on twitter. I'm sure they'd be interested to hear what their boss thinks of them.
Others may want to do likewise...

tiberius
09-16-2012, 09:20 PM
A guy like Mariner? What does that mean. Sure, debate his football coaching skill, and ability to lead the club. But what do you mean by "a guy like Mariner"? Seems to speak his mind to me. Is that a terrible thing?

And can someone pass me a link to all the terrible things that Mariner said about DeGuzman that seems to give JDG free rein to go around the country bad-mouthing his old team?

Mariner is costing us players and points. He takes no responsibility for what is happening on the field, nor for the decisions he is making from the sidelines. Instead he regularly and often throws individual players and/or the team under the bus. Thats a "guy like Mariner" - a blame-game guy. He does this in the media regularly - you couldn't make this stuff up...

Sooo.... A guy like Mariner can knowingly throw an injured Frings or the whole team for that matter under the bus, but JDG is not allowed to quote an ironic parting statement that Mariner made to him? How long do you plan to give Marnier a guest pass? Why does he get a guest pass at all?

I think Julian is 100% correct - Mariner has a lot of Karma that is gonna come his way as a result of his behaviour... You just don't get to run around blaming everyone else when you are a big part of the problem yourself.

As someone earlier today so eloquently put: Mariner has "Prekied" himself.

Blizzard
09-16-2012, 09:37 PM
I don't doubt this for one second. How did you find out about this?
I guess Frings figures that the worst that can happen is that he gets his contract bought out and doesn't have to play for that ass and can go coach at Bremen. Or he gets benched and he doesn't have to play for that idiot anymore. Or he gets his contract terminated and he gets to go back home. Best thing that happens is Mariner gets fired and Frings stays here.

Would you rather play next to someone who can play football or someone slower than yourself who boots the ball aimlessly and can't even tackle well? If I were Frings I would be insulted to have to play next to Dunfield

Well, I'm not a Dunfield hater as I do appreciate his efforts and his willingness to play hard but .... but .... but .... ya, I agree. Perhaps not insulted but maybe "miffed".

nfitz
09-16-2012, 09:43 PM
If all these quotes are really true, I wonder if/when Mariner will start going off on the fans. Seems the next logical step. He already did the "up yours" a while ago, but who knows exactly who that was aimed at. Wonder if we will be getting some pithy quotes about us idiot fans soon.Why not, probably well deserved after a few idiot fans go after him simply because they want someone's head on a platter - and they know that neither Anselmi's or Cochrane's will be served.

I keep seeing comments here talking about him being an alcoholic? Is there any basis to this, or are the claims as ridiculous as those working as hard as they can to take obviously humorous comments about shouting at players out of context.

Blizzard
09-16-2012, 09:47 PM
Absolutely disgusting.

Even Mo Johnston didn't stoop to that level.

Many might not like Mo Johnston and he certainly made mistakes but he also was not a complete and total blithering idiot.

denime
09-16-2012, 09:50 PM
Why not, probably well deserved after a few idiot fans go after him simply because they want someone's head on a platter - and they know that neither Anselmi's or Cochrane's will be served.

I keep seeing comments here talking about him being an alcoholic? Is there any basis to this, or are the claims as ridiculous as those working as hard as they can to take obviously humorous comments about shouting at players out of context.

You sound like Mariner :)

Auzzy
09-16-2012, 09:51 PM
Why not, probably well deserved after a few idiot fans go after him simply because they want someone's head on a platter - and they know that neither Anselmi's or Cochrane's will be served.

I keep seeing comments here talking about him being an alcoholic? Is there any basis to this, or are the claims as ridiculous as those working as hard as they can to take obviously humorous comments about shouting at players out of context.

Oh great, now you're dishing out the "idiot" label as well?

nfitz
09-16-2012, 09:57 PM
Oh great, now you're dishing out the "idiot" label as well? ... uh ... your the one who used "idiot fans". I just turned your sentence around. I know Canadians and Americans are notorious for their inability to perceive humorous comments (which seems to be the source of many of these anti-Mariner anecdotes) - but I thought this one was obvious enough not to use a smiley. No wonder so many comedy shows in North America need the laugh track to make sure people know where the joke is ...

jabbronies
09-16-2012, 09:58 PM
"sorry my voice is a little hoarse today, yesterday i was out here on the field yelling at these idiots"

way to set the tone, followed up by various sarcastic remarks by Mariner again, Brennan and others. who fosters this unprofessional and negative atmosphere...?

Jason Bent's session was excellent, just like it was last year when he did the pattern-passing (way better than Brennan's passing session today). lost count how many times Bent made comments like "they can't score when we have the ball", "maintain possession" etc. meanwhile look at our first team, lucky if they get above 45% possession under Mariner... so funny, but so sad... i left after Bent's session, as i was completely underwhelmed by the tone of the whole event. very unprofessional, with side-bar sarcastic remarks all over the place, is this how they run the academy always? why were Rongen and BDK absent? Bent's session and demeanor were professional, the rest was a joke.

long-time fan, board-lurker, felt i should second jabbronies' post. not renewing, and today's open house confirmed it.

Welcome to nut house! Always good to have fresh voices on the board.

So ya that is exactly what he said. Kind of caught me off guard.

Bent's session was the best. Second year in a row I've enjoyed what he's had to say.
Brennan's session was very flat, not very creative. Kind of like our first team.
Mariner's other guys in the session were not very impressive either.

Absence of BDK was very disappointing. He actually knows football. All you have to do is have 1 conversation with that guy to see how much he enjoys the game and understands the flow. Looks at everything from every angle.

These other clowns are very 1 dimensional.

tfcleeds
09-16-2012, 10:06 PM
... uh ... your the one who used "idiot fans". I just turned your sentence around. I know Canadians and Americans are notorious for their inability to perceive humorous comments (which seems to be the source of many of these anti-Mariner anecdotes) - but I thought this one was obvious enough not to use a smiley. No wonder so many comedy shows in North America need the laugh track to make sure people know where the joke is ...

I wasn't at the press conference, and maybe the comment was made in jest, but as someone alluded to earlier, with the way things are right now with player and fan morale so low right now, even if it was meant in jest, it was probably the wrong choice of term to use. Not exactly smart on Mariner's part, even if he did mean nothing more than a joke.

Auzzy
09-16-2012, 10:16 PM
... uh ... your the one who used "idiot fans". I just turned your sentence around. I know Canadians and Americans are notorious for their inability to perceive humorous comments (which seems to be the source of many of these anti-Mariner anecdotes) - but I thought this one was obvious enough not to use a smiley. No wonder so many comedy shows in North America need the laugh track to make sure people know where the joke is ...

Oh awesome, let's start throwing all Canadians AND Americans in one boat RE their ability to perceive humour. What about Germans? Well, it's good at least there's one enlightened fellow on this board, we shall all strive to achieve your great powers of perception. Do you need a winky at the end of that sentence?

The team is still in last place. CCL advancement looks nigh impossible, unlike last year. Obvious difficulties to motivate the players, as evidenced on the field & in the coach's comments. Great turmoil amongst players & fans. Some of the best players gone due to injuries & other issues. Dismal season ticket renewal phase coming up. News flash: Not a good time for dumb-ass sarcastic comments about "idiot" players, especially when the coach making those comments has shown zero humility or recognition of his personal responsibility in recent interviews.

FTR, I don't even think Mariner should be fired now (although Mariner is doing his best to convince me otherwise). I can go into my reasoning for that another time -- but I also understand if people do want him fired now (or even earlier), and I wouldn't attack them about it.

tiberius
09-16-2012, 10:23 PM
Why not, probably well deserved after a few idiot fans go after him simply because they want someone's head on a platter - and they know that neither Anselmi's or Cochrane's will be served.

Look, you clearly like the guy - I get that.

Mariner seems to have gone to the "Maurice John Giblin Johnston's school of Blarney and Blame". Unfortunately for Mariner, Toronto FC fans have already obtained a four year undergraduate degree from Mo's school. That means that we can recognize, identify, taste and smell Mo Blarney from 1000 yards. Mariner's dogs just won't hunt in this neck'o the woods cuz we are Mo Blarney Experts. We will not be fooled by an amateur such as Mariner - that's a tough break for him, but oh well...

denime
09-16-2012, 10:34 PM
Here is another one from drunken dancing monkey,this is from latest K. Larson article

Ex-TFC player de Guzman sounds off again (http://www.torontosun.com/2012/09/16/ex-tfc-player-de-guzman-sounds-off-again)



However truthful, the de Guzman-Mariner relationship — or lack there of — is a far cry from where it was at the start of the season.

“He’s got the best part of 10 months left and there’s a lot of (soccer) that has got to be played,” Mariner told the Sun during pre-season. “If he has got another one, two, four, five years left in his legs … we’ll try and keep him at the club as long as possible.



Pookie you were probably right about timing.


Well, I wouldn't dismiss it entirely. When were these comments to JDG expressed?

While Winter was still here? Months before the trade? A day or two before?

Timing is everything. One implies interference. One implies allowing a negative situation to fester and a divide to enter the room.

And regardless of timing, it implies a statement that you wouldn't expect from a player's coach. Does anyone think this adds to our reputation as being a great place to sign and play?

jabbronies
09-16-2012, 10:44 PM
... uh ... your the one who used "idiot fans". I just turned your sentence around. I know Canadians and Americans are notorious for their inability to perceive humorous comments (which seems to be the source of many of these anti-Mariner anecdotes) - but I thought this one was obvious enough not to use a smiley. No wonder so many comedy shows in North America need the laugh track to make sure people know where the joke is ...

lol. It's funny cos it's true.

Auzzy
09-16-2012, 10:54 PM
^ Well, if you believe Wiki, apparently laugh tracks (specifically post-recorded audience laughter mixed into the final broadcast) are at least as common in the UK as in Canadian TV comedies. (Not talking about US comedies shown here of course.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laugh_track#Laugh_tracks_outside_the_U.S.

Ajax TFC
09-16-2012, 11:26 PM
I keep seeing comments here talking about him being an alcoholic? Is there any basis to this, or are the claims as ridiculous as those working as hard as they can to take obviously humorous comments about shouting at players out of context.
as far as I know no one has claimed that he suffers from alcoholism. It's a known fact that he's the kind of guy who enjoys a pint though. for example, when he was coach of Plymouth Roy Keane got pissed at him for not having a drink with him. Part of Mariner's response was this:

“Four members of my staff spent about 25 minutes having a drink with Roy’s staff. It was unfortunate I didn’t see Roy afterwards but I look forward to having a drink with him next time.”
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2909487/Roy-Keane-Paul-Mariner-left-me-all-at-sea.html#ixzz26hJc6usk
It's not incriminating, but it's proof enough that he drinks like anyone else.

nfitz
09-16-2012, 11:27 PM
^ Well, if you believe Wiki.......

ag futbol
09-16-2012, 11:53 PM
....
Well compared to him you've provided no source.. at least he has something to go by.

Auzzy
09-17-2012, 12:08 AM
Well compared to him you've provided no source.. at least he has something to go by.

Oh no, now you've given him an out. He'll respond with a 4-paragraph essay comparing the use of laugh tracks & recorded audience laughter in UK & Canadian TV shows. He might even be right (who cares, doesn't justify his blanket statement about US & Cdn perception of humour & sarcasm), but this allows him to ignore/skip over all the careful arguments made by folks above, for which he doesn't have an answer.

Sarcasm or not, Mariner isn't funny, he's just a joke.

Blizzard
09-17-2012, 12:19 AM
When I read the comments about Mariner saying for him to burn in the heat and go to a last place team, my eyes literally bulged out of my head. This is ridiculous, the smallest amount of respect I had for Mariner is now gone. This guy needs to go. No tactics, players out of the right position, a clown on the sidelines, and an asshole. Not going to another TFC game until he's gone.

Are you Torsten Frings? ;)

TFC07
09-17-2012, 12:24 AM
Wow, when you think it can't get any worst for TFC.

I don't know how MLSE is going to sell us Mariner and co for next season. What JDG did was made MLSE job harder to sell Mariner and co to us now.

JDG is well respected soccer player in Canada, and I am sure all (or at least most) Canadian soccer fans who support TFC are going to back JDG on this one over Mariner. Not good news for MLSE.

DoubleUp
09-17-2012, 01:06 AM
Doesn't matter what his reasons were or what a useless cunt Julian was when here, that's unacceptable behavior from a club manager. Seriously, they should sack his ass. What player, hearing this, will ever want to play for this guy?


Thats the point!, People want to make this about deguzman when he no longer has any bearing on the club. While Mariner is still here with his crass conduct.

If there is even a hint of supporters(which there appears to be):facepalm: agreeing with this type of tomfoolery, this club will never be what its suppose be because management will just use the support of the delusional bunch to convince themselves that they are doing things properly.

narduch
09-17-2012, 05:42 AM
Laugh tracks are used to make unfunny shows appear funny, it has nothing to do with teaching people when to laugh.

Saying the Brits have a more sophisticated sense of humour than North Americans is just plain silly. Somebody is grasping at straws to defend Mariner (as he always defends MLSE at all times).

Mariner's comments would have been a scandal in England. Humour is one thing. His comments are petty, vindictive and asinine. Just because they may be delivered with a tinge of sarcasm is irrelevant.

And again TFC FO is an embarrassment.

Beach_Red
09-17-2012, 06:09 AM
Mariner can make as many ill-timed and unfunny jokes as he wants - he just can't win any games. That's not a north American or UK thing, it's what he's supposed to be doing here and he's not doing it.

nfitz
09-17-2012, 06:42 AM
His comments are petty, vindictive and asinine. Just because they may be delivered with a tinge of sarcasm is irrelevant.I can only speak to the comments I've heard in interviews - and those have always seemed quite on the money. I can only assume that those who hear differently have some kind of predisposed bias of some kind.

Beach_Red
09-17-2012, 06:56 AM
I can only speak to the comments I've heard in interviews - and those have always seemed quite on the money. I can only assume that those who hear differently have some kind of predisposed bias of some kind.

Well, we're pretty tired of losing and we're pretty tired of excuses, so if that has led to some kind of bias, so be it. Frankly anyone who manages people should understand that, but I guess we're stuck with the sophisticated Benny Hill who just operates over our dumb north American heads.

Look, I don't want to give you a hard time here, but our team is a laughingstock, every other team in the league - even expansion teams - feel if they don't get points at BMO they've screwed up. Our team is trying to dig out of a hole, we're going to have to attract new players, convince them to come here rather than to other teams and maybe even get some paying customers back. It's good that you think this is the guy who can do that, but I don't like the way he's going about it.

ensco
09-17-2012, 06:58 AM
Pookie you were probably right about timing.

Guys, it says "he will never forget his farewell" in the first line of the article!

Much as I love a good dustup/conspiracy theory, Mariner said it on the way out the door.

I don't like what Mariner supposedly said, but as JDG may well have done enough to drive a reasonable coach insane, I personally am moving back to the Frngs story. It's 100x more interesting/relevant. Come on German tabloids! .... where oh where is Kicker with that story?

Oldtimer
09-17-2012, 07:10 AM
Here's what I will say: if what DeGuzman says is true, it takes a certain degree of malice and arrogance for a manager to behave that way in a professional environment. This is not Sir Alex getting pissed off and throwing a cleat in anger at Sexy Becksy, this is a 59-year-old manager telling a departing player "Fuck you, I'm going to make your life shit, because I can."



This is the key point. What kind of manager talks like that? If anything, I'd call it abusive.

tfcleeds
09-17-2012, 07:53 AM
as far as I know no one has claimed that he suffers from alcoholism. It's a known fact that he's the kind of guy who enjoys a pint though. for example, when he was coach of Plymouth Roy Keane got pissed at him for not having a drink with him. Part of Mariner's response was this:

It's not incriminating, but it's proof enough that he drinks like anyone else.

Can't say I'd care to ever have a drink with Roy Keane either. In that one sense, I guess Mariner is OK. ;)

sully
09-17-2012, 08:03 AM
Not surprising that Mariner was frustrated with De Guzman, afterall De Guzman was overpaid, underperformed and if he had never signed with the club DeRo would probably still be a TFC player. But Mariner shouldn`t put himself in the gutter like that...how are the other players supposed to respect someone like that. Jeez, this season is like the season with a thousand kicks to the head of supporters. You could probably have put Rob Ford in charge and it couldn`t get any worse.

v00d00daddy
09-17-2012, 08:16 AM
I can't believe some people are justifying his comment based on JDG's level of play and pay.

What kind of "professional" coach says something like that?

ensco
09-17-2012, 08:27 AM
I can't believe some people are justifying his comment based on JDG's level of play and pay.

What kind of "professional" coach says something like that?

Think this level of indignation (not singling you out Voodoo, lots of people seemingly agree with you here) is kind of ridiculous. Behind closed doors, in sports all kinds of things are said, and all kinds of behaviours occur. I once saw Jeremy Roenick interviewed about Mike Keenan, the stuff Keenan supposedly said to him repeatedly, makes this child's play.

It's a hothouse environment. Lots of things are said. Need Whoop or someone else in the sports biz here to back me up, but what's unusual isn't what Mariner said, but JDG going public with it so soon afterwards.

nfitz
09-17-2012, 08:27 AM
What kind of "professional" coach says something like that?What kind of person complains about what the coach said, when it's only hearsay, and there's no context provided.

Beach_Red
09-17-2012, 08:33 AM
Think this level of indignation (not singling you out Voodoo, lots of people seemingly agree with you here) is kind of ridiculous. Behind closed doors, in sports all kinds of things are said, and all kinds of behaviours occur. I once saw Jeremy Roenick interviewed about Mike Keenan, the stuff Keenan supposedly said to him repeatedly, makes this child's play.

It's a hothouse environment. Lots of things are said. Need Whoop or someone else in the sports biz here to back me up, but what's unusual isn't what Mariner said, but JDG going public with it so soon afterwards.


"When you win twenty in The Show you can let fungus grow on your shower shoes and the press will call you colourful..."

There's a level of frustration here that affects everything. This is like watching RIM fade - and being asked to buy shares...

ManUtd4ever
09-17-2012, 09:10 AM
JDG deserved his fair share of criticism for his level of play in Toronto, but if he is telling the truth regarding Mariner's comments, that is completely unacceptable behavior from a manager at the professional level.

tfcleeds
09-17-2012, 09:19 AM
Jeez, this season is like the season with a thousand kicks to the head of supporters. You could probably have put Rob Ford in charge and it couldn`t get any worse.Don't worry - I'm sure he's on Cochrane's shortlist when the next managerial vacancy comes up.

ensco
09-17-2012, 09:24 AM
This is like watching RIM fade - and being asked to buy shares...

So .... I probably shouldn't put too much faith in a hired gun from Germany named Thorsten?

tfcleeds
09-17-2012, 09:25 AM
^Zing.

ensco
09-17-2012, 09:35 AM
^I think Preki's problem isn't douchery so much as what was whispered behind closed doors about what really got him fired (don't ask, I'm not saying).

But OK Whoop, I stand corrected.

Thanks.

narduch
09-17-2012, 09:36 AM
^I think Preki's problem isn't douchery so much as what was whispered behind closed doors about what really got him fired (don't ask, I'm not saying).



I'm guessing bungs.

nfitz
09-17-2012, 09:38 AM
^I think Preki's problem isn't douchery so much as what was whispered behind closed doors about what really got him fired (don't ask, I'm not saying).Is that the rumour about the August 24, 2010 Champions League game in El Salvador, or was there something else?

Lucky Strike
09-17-2012, 09:51 AM
Honestly, if I were paid large sums of money to come up with a novel about the most dysfunctional football club in the history of the world, I would have been grossly over-shadowed by the lunacy of this club. When will it end?

narduch
09-17-2012, 09:54 AM
When will it end?

It will end when guys like Cochrane and Anselmi are replaced with competent people.

Until than, I expect more of this shit show, whether Paul Mariner is coach or someone else is.

v00d00daddy
09-17-2012, 10:39 AM
What kind of person complains about what the coach said, when it's only hearsay, and there's no context provided.

Hahaha...do you even know what hearsay is?

No context?

Look...I don't agree with airing your dirty laundry in public and JDG was wrong for that IMO.

But you know the context in which it was said. It was post match in a game where he was receiving praise for a nice goal and it's obvious he's bitter about how things went with TFC and it came out.

Listen to the two interviews he's given post TFC and you'll have all you need to know.

v00d00daddy
09-17-2012, 10:43 AM
Think this level of indignation (not singling you out Voodoo, lots of people seemingly agree with you here) is kind of ridiculous. Behind closed doors, in sports all kinds of things are said, and all kinds of behaviours occur. I once saw Jeremy Roenick interviewed about Mike Keenan, the stuff Keenan supposedly said to him repeatedly, makes this child's play.

It's a hothouse environment. Lots of things are said. Need Whoop or someone else in the sports biz here to back me up, but what's unusual isn't what Mariner said, but JDG going public with it so soon afterwards.

Yeah I get what you mean. I don't think JDG airing it was a good idea and I know way worse is said...but to picture Mariner saying that to a player is still very telling of his level of professionalism...regardless of how common that sort of thing is

tfcleeds
09-17-2012, 10:55 AM
Oh yeah, worse things have been said by coaches in the past. But the key is "in the past". Coaches these days that say things like that a) don't last or b) are usually at a level where they wield a lot of power - think college or youth sports. (And even there it's changing constantly. Gone is the day where a coach just yells and screams at his players is long gone.)These days a coach says something like that, and unless you're very successful like a SAF or a Scotty Bowman or a Jose Mourinho, you're not going to last and you're digging yourself a coaching grave. Just another example (and Vic, you'd probably remember this) - the feud between Miroslav Frycer and John Brophy when he was coach of the Maple Leafs. Some of the stuff Brophy said about Frycer after he left for the Red Wings was unbelievable! Then again, that really was a different time (and Brophy was very much from a different era).

reggie
09-17-2012, 11:18 AM
6 yrs ago we started the fan revolution in the mls,now we are the laughing stock of the league.
how anybody can keep there job in the FO is shocking,but they will probs a get a promotion and a new 3 yr contract.

trane
09-17-2012, 11:24 AM
“I’ll never forget the words of [current TFC manager] Paul Mariner saying that he wants to make sure he’ll send me to a last-place team and let me burn in the heat,”

Wow...

I am confused, if Mariner whated JDG to be stuck on a last-place team, why did he trade him??????

TFC Tifoso
09-17-2012, 11:27 AM
^^ rimshot......

jloome
09-17-2012, 11:28 AM
I am confused, if Mariner whated JDG to be stuck on a last-place team, why did he trade him??????

Brilliant tactical move on his part, as usual.

ryan
09-17-2012, 11:30 AM
I am confused, if Mariner whated JDG to be stuck on a last-place team, why did he trade him??????

Cause he won't get a sunburn in Toronto.




I'm amused that Hyndman piled on reminding the media that TFC is paying his full contract.

mastermixer
09-17-2012, 11:50 AM
I'm sure this is obvious, but apparently TFC is still paying JDG's salary according to Hyndman. Seems like there is lots of red showing up in the books of the TFC accounting department these days.



Daniel Robertson‏@DRobertsonFCD (https://twitter.com/DRobertsonFCD)
@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN) One other note that hasn't made the rounds yet, Hyndman said post-game that TFC is paying his salary. Never heard it on record.

ag futbol
09-17-2012, 12:06 PM
^ Ha! I knew it, absolutely no way FCD is taking on that motherload of a contract unless TFC was footing the bill.


I am confused, if Mariner whated JDG to be stuck on a last-place team, why did he trade him??????
trolololol

AlanO
09-17-2012, 12:23 PM
I am confused, if Mariner whated JDG to be stuck on a last-place team, why did he trade him??????
Mariner traded JDG to a playoff contender where he gets to play with Brek Shea and David Ferreira.

Take that, de Guzman!

trane
09-17-2012, 12:28 PM
^ As Jloome said another brilliant tactical move by Mariner.

Pookie
09-17-2012, 12:30 PM
So, uh, what exactly did we gain by shipping out JDG?

- cost savings? Nope
- roster depth? Nope
- a draft pick? Nope
- a bad contract? Nope, that was going to expire anyways
- A feeling of goodwill that will be spread to other players in the league and make this the preferred destination?

Sigh

narduch
09-17-2012, 12:34 PM
So, uh, what exactly did we gain by shipping out JDG?


A DP spot.

So that we could waste it on a striker for this season, despite the fact that we have nothing to play for.

trane
09-17-2012, 12:35 PM
So, uh, what exactly did we gain by shipping out JDG?

- cost savings? Nope
- roster depth? Nope
- a draft pick? Nope
- a bad contract? Nope, that was going to expire anyways
- A feeling of goodwill that will be spread to other players in the league and make this the preferred destination?

Sigh

hahahhahhah. It is sad. But do you not see, he punished him by sending him to a team that may play in the post season.

Oldtimer
09-17-2012, 12:37 PM
I'm sure this is obvious, but apparently TFC is still paying JDG's salary according to Hyndman. Seems like there is lots of red showing up in the books of the TFC accounting department these days.

"Brilliant" move from Mariner then. I suppose they'll need to raise SSH prices to pay for all this money being paid out to ex-coaches and players.

nfitz
09-17-2012, 12:39 PM
Hahaha...do you even know what hearsay is???? Doesn't everyone? Rumour, gossip ... we don't know what Mariner said to JDG, only what JDG said that Mariner said.


But you know the context in which it was said. It was post match in a game where he was receiving praise for a nice goal and it's obvious he's bitter about how things went with TFC and it came out.Ha,ha ha. The context of Mariner's alleged comment of course.


Listen to the two interviews he's given post TFC and you'll have all you need to know.It tells us nothing, about what was said, just what JDG reported he heard. What was said first. What was the tone. What had JDG already said. Or to put it simply ... the context. Do you even know what context is?

Beach_Red
09-17-2012, 12:39 PM
So .... I probably shouldn't put too much faith in a hired gun from Germany named Thorsten?

Well, you can have faith that guys named Torsten will return to Germany with a lot of Canadian money...

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2012, 12:42 PM
I think JDG was a huge bust in his time here, and has only himself to blame for that. He made off like a bandit with millions of dollars, and gave us very little in return for it. And he did so over MULTIPLE coaches.

THAT SAID

If it's true that Mariner said this to him? That's completely fucking unacceptable, and Mariner should be fired immediately, even ignoring all of the other compelling reasons to get rid of him already. That kind of treatment of an outgoing player is exactly the sort of bullshit that stains a club's reputation. Unbelievable. It's one thing to just release or trade a shitty player largely without comment. But to tell an outgoing player you intentionally want to essentially make his life shitty?

Fuck all of the people who operate this team. Seriously.

- Scott

arsenal
09-17-2012, 12:45 PM
So, uh, what exactly did we gain by shipping out JDG?

- cost savings? Nope
- roster depth? Nope
- a draft pick? Nope
- a bad contract? Nope, that was going to expire anyways
- A feeling of goodwill that will be spread to other players in the league and make this the preferred destination?

Sigh

Andrew Wiedeman .... “He’s young. He’s very very hungry. He’s one of the best finishers I’ve seen in the modern era,” Mariner said of Wiedeman

Yohan
09-17-2012, 12:46 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/09/17/vote-now-att-goal-week-week-28

JDG up for GOTW.

v00d00daddy
09-17-2012, 12:49 PM
??? Doesn't everyone? Rumour, gossip ... we don't know what Mariner said to JDG, only what JDG said that Mariner said.

Ha,ha ha. The context of Mariner's alleged comment of course.

It tells us nothing, about what was said, just what JDG reported he heard. What was said first. What was the tone. What had JDG already said. Or to put it simply ... the context. Do you even know what context is?

Sorry...but you're wrong. JDG said what he was told by Mariner. That's not hearsay. Now...if you believe he's lying and creating rumours that's your choice. It doesn't surprise me one bit that you think Deguzman is lying based on your pro Mariner comments of the past.

As for the "context"...if you need all of the things you listed before you believe anything then you basically need to be in the room with them as it happened.

That kind of threshold is not even required in a court of law if there are enough things that can be added up to paint the whole picture.

You say the interviews tell us nothing about what was said...just what JDG heard?

Are you fucking serious?

So if I call you a fucking idiot in public and you go home and tell your friend that some dude just called you an idiot....should your friend doubt you? Lol

Id say...Only if you're known to be a liar.

Now...do you know JDG to be a liar?

Or do you have so much respect for Mariner (despite that he has flat out lied to us all) that you just can't bring yourself to believe JDG?

nfitz
09-17-2012, 01:00 PM
Sorry...but you're wrong. JDG said what he was told by Mariner. That's not hearsay.Of course that hearsay. Do you even know what hearsay is?


Now...if you believe he's lying and creating rumours that's your choice.I simply don't believe that was the entire conversation. Something was said by someone before.


It doesn't surprise me one bit that you think Deguzman is lying based on your pro Mariner comments of the past.I never said that JDG was lying. I think he's omitting stuff, and I'm not sure he understood the comment. That's not lying.


As for the "context"...if you need all of the things you listed before you believe anything then you basically need to be in the room with them as it happened.

That kind of threshold is not even required in a court of law if there are enough things that can be added up to paint the whole picture.What is normally required in a court of law is a witness. You'd also question JDG under thread of perjury.


Are you fucking serious? 100% serious. What's wrong with you that you need to start swearing? Is your case that weak?


Now...do you know JDG to be a liar?Why does it matter. I've not once said I thought he was lying. Why does he have to be lying for you to believe there may be more to the story? That's rather black-and-white isn't it ... life is shades of gray.

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2012, 01:04 PM
Of course that hearsay. Do you even know what hearsay is?

Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person, where that source had no direct experience. JDG would be a first-party to a conversation between Mariner and himself, so no, it isn't hearsay.


What is normally required in a court of law is a witness. You'd also question JDG under thread of perjury

JDG would qualify as a "witness" to his own conversation.


I never said that JDG was lying. I think he's omitting stuff, and I'm not sure he understood the comment. That's not lying

Knowingly omitting information to change the context of a statement is virtually indistinguishable from lying. And how can you assert he didn't understand Mariner's comments, when you never even heard Mariner's comments first-hand, to begin with?

I mean, if you think JDG is just full of shit, and another angry ex-player, without any corroborating evidence, then so be it. But just say that, and deal with the pretty obvious criticism of taking such a stance.

- Scott

tfcleeds
09-17-2012, 01:11 PM
Personally, I find Mariner's comments at the coaches session about the team to be more contemptible than what he said about JDG. He should be fired on that basis (insulting the entire team in a public forum) alone.

v00d00daddy
09-17-2012, 01:12 PM
Of course that hearsay. Do you even know what hearsay is?

I simply don't believe that was the entire conversation. Something was said by someone before.

I never said that JDG was lying. I think he's omitting stuff, and I'm not sure he understood the comment. That's not lying.

What is normally required in a court of law is a witness. You'd also question JDG under thread of perjury.

100% serious. What's wrong with you that you need to start swearing? Is your case that weak?

Why does it matter. I've not once said I thought he was lying. Why does he have to be lying for you to believe there may be more to the story? That's rather black-and-white isn't it ... life is shades of gray.

Please don't try and play the objective type. You're not gonna sell me on it.

Yes...there is obviously another side to this story. And, for the record, this would be near the bottom of my list of why I hate that Mariner is the coach at TFC.

Lets see if Mariner or the club make any mention of the JDG comments. My guess is that they won't say a word. (and that's not because of their uber professional nature) lol

And shakes beat me to it. It wasn't hearsay.

nfitz
09-17-2012, 01:21 PM
Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person, where that source had no direct experience. JDG would be a first-party to a conversation between Mariner and himself, so no, it isn't hearsay.While that's an interesting definition you have, you might want to check a dictionary. People repeating JDG's comments is hearsay; you have no idea what Mariner actually said, and what preceded it.


Knowingly omitting information to change the context of a statement is virtually indistinguishable from lying. And how can you assert he didn't understand Mariner's comments, when you never even heard Mariner's comments first-hand, to begin with?Because I don't believe for a second, that Mariner stopped JDG in the hall, and said nothing but what JDG said was said. Surely there was something, said by someone, before. I'm not even sure anything was knowingly omitted ... what one hears in a conversation often radically differs from what others hear in the same conversation.


I mean, if you think JDG is just full of shit, and another angry ex-player, without any corroborating evidence, then so be it. But just say that, and deal with the pretty obvious criticism of taking such a stance.I don't think he was full of shit. I only think he's an angry ex-player. Do people not think he is an ex-player? Do they not think he was angry about it?

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2012, 01:28 PM
While that's an interesting definition you have, you might want to check a dictionary. People hear repeating JDG's comments is hearsay.

People referencing a quote JDG gave to the media, is not "hearsay". It's referenced, first-hand testimony. And I work in the justice system - I have a passing familiarity with what "hearsay" means, so your snark amuses me. It would be hearsay if the reporter interviewed someone who overheard JDG making these comments.


Because I don't believe for a second, that Mariner stopped JDG in the hall, and said nothing but what was said. Surely there was something, said by someone, before. I'm not even sure anything was knowingly omitted ... what one hears in a conversation often radically differs from what others hear in the same conversation.

If you simply "don't believe", then so be it. In the absence of any evidence, I'm not going to rest on belief.


I don't think he was full of shit. I only think he's an angry ex-player. Do people not think he is an ex-player? Do they not think he was angry about it?

You've directly accused him of omitting context, to make Mariner's statement sound worse than you think it was. That is calling him full of shit.

- Scott

TOBOR !
09-17-2012, 01:33 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/09/17/vote-now-att-goal-week-week-28

JDG up for GOTW.

JDG's expression of pure joy says it all : 'Finally ! After 100's of attempts I got one on goal - and it went in !'

ag futbol
09-17-2012, 01:34 PM
While that's an interesting definition you have, you might want to check a dictionary. People hear repeating JDG's comments is hearsay; you have no idea what Mariner actually said, and what preceded it.

What he's said is the way most people understand it.

hear·say (hîrhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifshttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif)n.1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.

2. Law Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.



Now maybe as the information is passed from DeGuzman to us it could loosely fit that definition, but I think that's more of a stretch. The claim is specific and attributed to someone, which normally falls outside the common usage of the word. So it's whether you believe DeGuzman or not, as opposed to calling this unsubstantiated, which is not normally what you'd associate with the term.


BTW, it doesn't really seem like you care if it's true, do you? Someone here directly reported that Mariner called his players a bunch of idiots at the coaching clinic and you just excused it. So clearly you don't feel this type of behavior is enough to discredit the coach, maybe you should stick to that instead as the argument.

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2012, 01:40 PM
The source of the information is a named first-party, who was directly involved in the conversation.

In a court, your courses of attack would be to a) substantiate some evidence that he's simply lying about what was said, or that the conversation ever occurred; or b) try and generally attack his credibility as a trustworthy witness.

Either way, not hearsay.

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2012, 01:43 PM
ag beat me to it.

So really it's a case of whether you believe JDG or in the case of the "bunch of idiots" comment, if you believe 3-4 posters on the forum who heard Mariner say it.

1) In the JDG case, you don't have anyone else to corroborate his comments. You likely won't find a current teammate to corroborate his statements until a) after the season or b) that player leaves the team.

2) With 3-4 eyewitness accounts at the coaching seminar, the "bunch of idiots" comment is factual evidence.

Then you start to put it together... you start getting a picture. Whether you agree with the picture, well... that's up to you.

Exactly. And if you simply don't believe any of it, so be it. You're entitled to an opinion, not necessarily a reasoned one.

- Scott

__wowza
09-17-2012, 01:50 PM
ALL OF YOU, COOL IT!

at end of the day, we're on a winless streak. we're last. we're playing damn unattractive kickboxing style soccer.

we can sing the he said, he didn't say song all night, but i've read a page long argument that's three lefts past coming full circle. fact of the matter is that JDG says mariner said what he said, believe him or don't. let's be move go back to the statement, instead of attacking the validity of it.

TFC Tifoso
09-17-2012, 01:51 PM
regardless of whether or not Mariner's comment was made in isolation (and it doesn't matter one iota whether they were or not), his words are very simply not words that should come out the mouth of anyone who wants to be professional or lead..........

nfitz
09-17-2012, 01:56 PM
People referencing a quote JDG gave to the media, is not "hearsay". It's referenced, first-hand testimony. And I work in the justice system - I have a passing familiarity with what "hearsay" means, so your snark amuses me. It would be hearsay if the reporter interviewed someone who overheard JDG making these comments.Who gives what the legal system says. Simply look in a simple dictionary. A legal definition is fine if you want to put on wigs and gowns ... do you all want us standing in the supporters section in gowns?


You've directly accused him of omitting context, to make Mariner's statement sound worse than you think it was. That is calling him full of shit.I fully believe that's what JDG heard. That doesn't make him full of shit. That makes him human ...

Shades of grey remember. The world isn't black-and-white. Unless you want us to play football in a courtroom ...


regardless of whether or not Mariner's comment was made in isolation (and it doesn't matter one iota whether they were or not), his words are very simply not words that should come out the mouth of anyone who wants to be professional or lead..........And yet there remains no indication that the were words were actually spoken as reported. This is the problem. It just doesn't matter ... until a few people with an agenda, are using it to smear someone, who may never have meant the words in the context that's now being used. It's hearsay.

Yohan
09-17-2012, 01:56 PM
regardless of whether or not Mariner's comment was made in isolation (and it doesn't matter one iota whether they were or not), his words are very simply not words that should come out the mouth of anyone who wants to be professional or lead..........

This.

Mariner is turning out to be slightly more amusing version of Preki

TOBOR !
09-17-2012, 01:58 PM
Who gives what the legal system says. Simply look in a simple dictionary. A legal definition is fine if you want to put on wigs and gowns ... do you all want us standing in the supporters section in gowns?

some people don't know when to walk away...

http://www.cosplayisland.co.uk/files/costumes/6313/66489/CI_66489_1344008900.jpg

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2012, 02:02 PM
Who gives what the legal system says. Simply look in a simple dictionary. A legal definition is fine if you want to put on wigs and gowns ... do you all want us standing in the supporters section in gowns?

The dictionary's definition matches my own, strangely enough. So does Wikipedia's. I don't know why you're doubling down on this absurd notion that the dictionary disagrees with me.

Anyway, this argument is getting ridiculous and off-base from the topic at hand, so I'm done.

I refer you all to the previous page for my take on this news,.

- Scott

TFC Tifoso
09-17-2012, 02:04 PM
This.

Mariner is turning out to be slightly more amusing version of Preki

all we need now is the camera slap from this crazy loon and the good times shall be rolling!!.......forget the definition of hersay......Mariner is the definition of a dunce........

TFC Tifoso
09-17-2012, 02:07 PM
And yet there remains no indication that the were words were actually spoken as reported. This is the problem. It just doesn't matter ... until a few people with an agenda, are using it to smear someone, who may never have meant the words in the context that's now being used. It's hearsay.

all it is, is a private conversation that was made public.....you can give it whatever fancy name you lke........

Pookie
09-17-2012, 02:22 PM
Maybe this is like a Seinfeld episode and Mariner is just a Bad-breaker-upper

"He's a bad breaker-upper."

"Bad how?"

"Well, you know when you break up, how you say things you don't mean? Well, he says the mean things you don't mean, but he means them."
- Elaine and Jerry, in "The Andrea Doria"

jloome
09-17-2012, 02:26 PM
It's funny, but whomever you guys are arguing with endlessly is obviously someone on my ignore list, which I reserve for wind-up trolls without humility or objectivity.

So I'm totally amused-but-unsurprised to be watching a one-sided debate over whether the legal definition of "hearsay " - a legal term! - is important.

I can only assume you're all chatting with Paul Mariner.

DoubleUp
09-17-2012, 02:55 PM
Oh yeah, worse things have been said by coaches in the past. But the key is "in the past". Coaches these days that say things like that a) don't last or b) are usually at a level where they wield a lot of power - think college or youth sports. (And even there it's changing constantly. Gone is the day where a coach just yells and screams at his players is long gone.)These days a coach says something like that, and unless you're very successful like a SAF or a Scotty Bowman or a Jose Mourinho, you're not going to last and you're digging yourself a coaching grave.



Exactly! only coaches! who can even begin to act like this are winning ones. You cant win games, and your still acting like a prick!?:nono:

OgtheDim
09-17-2012, 03:37 PM
What kind of person complains about what the coach said, when it's only hearsay, and there's no context provided.

You are conveniently ignoring the comments made at the open house.

Or is that covered in your "you people don't get his British humour" bit?

BTW, he's been over here for how long now?

nfitz
09-17-2012, 03:52 PM
The dictionary's definition matches my own, strangely enough.Let me guess ... a legal dictionary?

Canadian Oxford ; hearsay n. rumour gossip. That's it. Nothing more.


So does Wikipedia's.No it doesn't. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hearsay Definition 1 "information that was heard by one person about another"


I don't know why you're doubling down on this absurd notion that the dictionary disagrees with me.Because it would appear your case has a huge hole in it.

Though doesn't really matter how you define hearsay ... that I'm right on this and your wrong isn't important. The simple point is we only heard from JDG what he said about Mariner. We don't know the full story.

OgtheDim
09-17-2012, 03:56 PM
Yeah....it is better without him.


Sooooooooo...........question?

Will Mariner's comments at the open house actually come back to haunt him or are Cocharane and Anselmi so teflon and TFC so unimportant nobody will care.

nfitz
09-17-2012, 03:57 PM
You are conveniently ignoring the comments made at the open house.It was a sarcastic humorous comment. Are the joke police going to get him? No one would ever mistake this for anything other than cutting humour - it's funny because it's true. To attack him as this being a serious comment is really disingenious.


BTW, he's been over here for how long now?I know Brits who have been here for over 40 years and still use such humour. Is there something in the Canadian residency requirements that requires one lose their sense of humour? (see what I did there?).

Beach_Red
09-17-2012, 04:00 PM
Fuck all of the people who operate this team. Seriously.

- Scott

This is really it, right here. We can just add this latest "he said, she said," to every other one we've endured since this team started. This team is worse now than in its expansion year. There's no way to spin that.

ryan
09-17-2012, 04:01 PM
this "hearsay" conversation is absurd.

ag futbol
09-17-2012, 04:06 PM
some people don't know when to walk away...

http://www.cosplayisland.co.uk/files/costumes/6313/66489/CI_66489_1344008900.jpg
What's the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

nfitz
09-17-2012, 04:06 PM
I laugh at how when one person is wrong they try to distort facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HearsaySo your going to take a Wikipedia article, which seems to be about the legal definition, over the dictionary definition, which doesn't say this at all.

The article clearly starts off with the disclaimer "This article is about the form of evidence." and refers you to both a disambiguation page and the dictionary definition http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hearsay which you can see from definition number 1, is quite different. Also if you look at a standard Canadian or British dictionary (The Shorter Oxford) for example, you will see that there is only 1 simple definition.

Surely it is you distorting the facts. Does that mean we should be laughing at you?

Edit

Okay, now I'm confused ... you then edited your post after I replied to it to reference another definition that supports my argument. Not sure what side your arguing here.

nfitz
09-17-2012, 04:10 PM
Wow.

Just wow.I'll take that as an apology then.

ryan
09-17-2012, 04:11 PM
So your going to take a Wikipedia article, which seems to be about the legal definition, over the dictionary definition, which doesn't say this at all.

The article clearly starts off with the disclaimer "This article is about the form of evidence." and refers you to both a disambiguation page and the dictionary definition http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hearsay which you can see from definition number 1, is quite different. Also if you look at a standard Canadian or British dictionary (The Shorter Oxford) for example, you will see that there is only 1 simple definition.

Surely it is you distorting the facts. Does that mean we should be laughing at you?

Surely it is, surely it isn't. Who cares, you be trollin.

Greatest Ripoff
09-17-2012, 04:12 PM
some people don't know when to walk away...

http://www.cosplayisland.co.uk/files/costumes/6313/66489/CI_66489_1344008900.jpg

Now this is some real British humour.

denime
09-17-2012, 04:12 PM
It was a sarcastic humorous comment. Are the joke police going to get him? No one would ever mistake this for anything other than cutting humour - it's funny because it's true. To attack him as this being a serious comment is really disingenious.

I know Brits who have been here for over 40 years and still use such humour. Is there something in the Canadian residency requirements that requires one lose their sense of humour? (see what I did there?).


And you know that it was sarcastic comment because you were there? Or you have a crystal ball at home that follows your buddy Mariner at all times,so you know exactly when is it hearsay and when he sarcastic,right?

ag futbol
09-17-2012, 04:14 PM
And you know that it was sarcastic comment because you were there? Or you have a crystal ball at home that follows your buddy Mariner at all times,so you know exactly when is it hearsay and when he sarcastic,right?
Ah, now THAT'S the definition of hearsay!

And he claimed all this time he didn't know what it was. That illustrated it perfectly!

nfitz
09-17-2012, 04:19 PM
And you know that it was sarcastic comment because you were there?It's an assumption. Why would a generally well-respected coach mean it any other way? It's a standard technique to start a meeting, and apologize for a speech problem. Toss in a bit of sarcastic humour ...

If his comments were along the lines of "Toronto FC players are all idiots" I'd be more concerned. I fail to understand why people would assume bad faith and choose to interpret it any other way.

Of course I wasn't there ... but people spend the day with him, and that's the worst they got?

On the other hand, who knows ... perhaps he was still hung over first thing Sunday morning.

ryan
09-17-2012, 04:20 PM
if you're going to take his bait, at least use the dictionary.com, because the basis of his current troll act is on your source.


information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge

pretty sure a conversation between JDG and Drunk Paul would be his direct knowledge. But perhaps trolly mctroll has something witty to pick out of my post to attempt to bait me.


Go for it, I swear I won't see right through your childish shenanigans.

nfitz
09-17-2012, 04:21 PM
Holy fuck. You're dense.

This is the basic definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay_(disambiguation)It's Wikipedia. That's clearly wrong. That's about the article on the legal principle. I'll fix that page. But look to the right on that page ... and you'll see the link to the dictionary definition. Click on it, read number 1, and then apologise.


I'm out. In other words, you know your wrong, and your going to run away with your tail between your legs, rather than admit your error.

If anyone is still confused by what I said ... if they really can't handle shade of grey, then simply substitute the standard dictionary definition for hearsay - rumour, gossip.

So my original post changes from
What kind of person complains about what the coach said, when it's only hearsay, and there's no context provided. to

What kind of person complains about what the coach said, when it's only rumour/gossip, and there's no context provided.

Frankly, I think this was pretty clear the first time.

jabbronies
09-17-2012, 04:23 PM
It was a sarcastic humorous comment. Are the joke police going to get him? No one would ever mistake this for anything other than cutting humour - it's funny because it's true. To attack him as this being a serious comment is really disingenious.

I know Brits who have been here for over 40 years and still use such humour. Is there something in the Canadian residency requirements that requires one lose their sense of humour? (see what I did there?).

I do think he said it in a joking kind of way with serious undertones obviously. But with that being said, if he is willing to joke around in such a manner, how would he be in a serious situation like with JDG. I'm sure he would have no issue shooting off in a similar derogatory manner.

tfcleeds
09-17-2012, 04:26 PM
Bravely bold Sir Mariner rode forth from BMO Field/ He was not afraid to die, O Brave Sir Mariner/ He was not at all afraid for his team to lose in nasty ways/ Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Mariner/ He was not the least bit scared for his team to be mashed into a pulp/ To have their eyes gouged out and their elbows broken/ To have their kneecaps split or their ACLs torn/ To have their limbs all hacked and mangled, brave Sir Mariner/ He was not afraid of having his players sent off, or to throw them under the bus/ Own goals scored, and penalties conceded/ Playing his players out of position, and acting all conceited/ oh brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Mariner.

nfitz
09-17-2012, 04:30 PM
if you're going to take his bait, at least use the dictionary.com, because the basis of his current troll act is on your source.That would be an American source though. Both Canadian and British dictionaries have different definitions.

nfitz
09-17-2012, 04:33 PM
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hearsay

#1
Noun

hearsay (usually uncountable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#uncountable); plural hearsays (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hearsays#English))


information (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/information) that was heard (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heard) by one person (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/person) about another (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/another)

Precisely ... I didn't hear Mariner say it. I heard it from one person (JDG) about another (Mariner). It's gossip. It's rumour. That's all.

I was hoping for some intelligent analysis here ... perhaps someone who could convince me that Mariner is indeed irredeemable scum. But I can only conclude that there's little basis to the case against him, if the best that those who oppose him can do is to debate grammar.

ryan
09-17-2012, 04:37 PM
That would be an American source though. Both Canadian and British dictionaries have different definitions.

LOL

You might need to change your diaper from all the pissing yourself laughing you're doing right now. Feel sorry for those who don't see through it.

MartinUtd
09-17-2012, 04:38 PM
Guys guys guys, this belong is spelling, grammar & linguistics forum.

nfitz
09-17-2012, 04:39 PM
Guys guys guys, this belong is spelling, grammar & linguistics forum.Not a believer in the Oxford comma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_comma), are you?

spark
09-17-2012, 04:58 PM
Precisely ... I didn't hear Mariner say it. I heard it from one person (JDG) about another (Mariner). It's gossip. It's rumour. That's all.

I was hoping for some intelligent analysis here ... perhaps someone who could convince me that Mariner is indeed irredeemable scum. But I can only conclude that there's little basis to the case against him, if the best that those who oppose him can do is to debate grammar.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Ann Coulter!

Ajax TFC
09-17-2012, 05:03 PM
no matter what legal term you use, or what the dictionary's definition of that term is, it all points to one thing: Is de Guzman telling the truth? You can call it whatever the fuck you like, but at the end of the day it is what it is. It is a former player saying what he former coach said to him. Finding the correct term for what that is wont bring you any closer to whether or not he's telling it the way it is.

Now once everyone accepts this, we can focus our efforts on determining how likely it actually is that he is telling the truth about Mariner.

MartinUtd
09-17-2012, 05:04 PM
Not a believer in the Oxford comma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_comma), are you?

LOL, no, I wasn't brought up that way. Also, thanks for not pointing out the other spelling and grammar errors in that very short message. (I really need proof read before hitting reply)

Beach_Red
09-17-2012, 05:11 PM
Precisely ... I didn't hear Mariner say it. I heard it from one person (JDG) about another (Mariner). It's gossip. It's rumour. That's all.

I was hoping for some intelligent analysis here ... perhaps someone who could convince me that Mariner is indeed irredeemable scum. But I can only conclude that there's little basis to the case against him, if the best that those who oppose him can do is to debate grammar.

The only case against him that matters is that he can't win. The prospects for TFC have never been so low.

Ajax TFC
09-17-2012, 05:11 PM
a generally well-respected coach
Order of reactions:
1st.:yikes:
2nd::puke:
Then I realized that you must`ve forgotten the smile: :smilielol5:

Flipityflu
09-17-2012, 05:12 PM
this is the most fun i've had here in a while

ensco
09-17-2012, 05:19 PM
Listen up. It's not about semantics. Just the meaning of words.
Got it?

ArmenJBX
09-17-2012, 05:23 PM
Please, go on :D

I'm learning so much!

PozeshnMatters
09-17-2012, 05:26 PM
I wouldn't mind if they (the new president aka Rongen) promoted Bent to head coach. I like what I'm hearing here about what he says.

in both last year's and this year's open coaching sessions, he was clearly implementing a pedagogical style and even phrases like "can ya?/ kan je?" that were obviously learned through working with BDK and Winter. as for head coach, clearly not before the ABC's have been cleared out, that's no recipe for him to be successful. i also wouldn't want to rush him in as a head coach until he's had more exposure to other styles, like say working with a Brazilian head coach... which i have to say, why have we none on staff/roster? and i'm not brazilian so don't call it bias. except if you say i'm biased towards technical football...

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2012, 05:31 PM
I go away for a few hours, come back, and this stuff about hearsay is still going on?

I've witnessed doubling down on a point before, but never tripling or quadrupling down on a fundamentally incorrect argument. And doing it with a self-assured smirk the entire time? Dear God.

Let's just move on, and get back to the story at hand, before I pass out from this nosebleed.

- Scott

nfitz
09-17-2012, 05:37 PM
Order of reactions:
1st.:yikes:
2nd::puke:
Then I realized that you must`ve forgotten the smile: :smilielol5:No, I was serious. I've seen a few people in the media talking highly of him.

I'd assume that it's pretty evident that he's going to be back next year. I have no idea if he'll succeed or not ... but we'll know by mid-year.

Really though, if we start firing him now, I'm only going to be happy if those that hired the previous 7 coaches are fired as well.


I go away for a few hours, come back, and this stuff about hearsay is still going on?

I've witnessed doubling down on a point before, but never tripling or quadrupling down on a fundamentally incorrect argument. And doing it with a self-assured smirk the entire time? Dear God.

Let's just move on, and get back to the story at hand, before I pass out from this nosebleed.I moved on a long time ago, and rewrote the offending quote, to use the words rumour and gossip rather than hearsay. While I still believe that what I wrote was 100% correct outside a legal context, any writing is a failure if the intended audience does not comprehend it.


this is the most fun i've had here in a whileIt's going to be a long off-season this year ... sigh.

PAOK17
09-17-2012, 06:03 PM
I love how we are debating the term "hearsay."

Anyway that's not the problem here. The problem is that this is just another blow to the organization. We can keep saying how there are disgruntled players who feel they were treated poorly but when there are handful of these cases every year, you can't help but wonder if there is any element of truth in what they say. On the other hand, how many ex-players/employees have GOOD things to say about TFC? No this doesn't include guys like Brennan and Dichio who still work for them.

Also for JDG to say this in the heat of the moment means it's been at the back of his mind for a while. Like him or not, he was treated poorly and he vented his frustrations. The good thing is at least the players recognize that the fans are victims too. And they clearly feel sorry for us for what he have to put up with.

Lastly, I think you have to have some sort of success as a head coach before you can be considered a well respected one. I mean just because you have a hand full of people who seem to love you unconditionally doesn't necessarily mean you're good at what you're doing. But since I like hearing what people have to say, for those that support him, what has Mariner done as a coach to make you feel he is good for the job?

Ajax TFC
09-17-2012, 06:21 PM
On the other hand, how many ex-players/employees have GOOD things to say about TFC?
Nathan Sturgis...

PAOK17
09-17-2012, 06:24 PM
^^hahah really?

Ajax TFC
09-17-2012, 06:32 PM
Via Twitter: Toronto was a great learning experience but am excited to be moving on to Houston! Looking forward to joining up with the team!

not really praise, but it was a positive comment from a player who didn't play much. That was a pretty rare thing to hear from a departing player

nfitz
09-17-2012, 06:40 PM
No this doesn't include guys like Brennan and Dichio who still work for them.Maurice Edu. Offhand, I can't recall any negative Cronin comments.

Not many though ...

Ajax TFC
09-17-2012, 06:43 PM
The line of former TFC players lashing out at TFC once they've left is lengthy. And oddly enough that line is way longer than any other team's in any other sport.

So either a) they're getting the wrong type of "team" players, you don't win with individualistic, vindictive players or b) likely there's something wrong with the people within the team's front office.
the scary thing is that the list of people that they're pissed off at when they leave is almost as long as the list of people who are pissed off. In this case there is no one person you can point at for pissing off all the players who come here

Blizzard
09-17-2012, 07:02 PM
Maurice Edu. Offhand, I can't recall any negative Cronin comments.

Not many though ...

I don't recall any negative comments from Cronin either ... apart from after the five nil defeat in New York. Nothing from Mo Edu either as he was thrilled to bits that MoJo moved him to a prestige club after he made clear his intention of leaving.

I never liked Jacob Peterson so I couldn't care less about his negative tweets.

ensco
09-17-2012, 07:02 PM
Man what I wouldn't give to hear what Mo, or Preki, have to say now.

Blizzard
09-17-2012, 07:04 PM
Man what I wouldn't give to hear what Mo, or Preki, have to say now.

I don't know if we would get much spoken word stuff amidst the bouts of hysterical laughter.

Beach_Red
09-17-2012, 07:13 PM
the scary thing is that the list of people that they're pissed off at when they leave is almost as long as the list of people who are pissed off. In this case there is no one person you can point at for pissing off all the players who come here

And that really points to a lack of leadership.

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2012, 07:17 PM
The line of former TFC players lashing out at TFC once they've left is lengthy. And oddly enough that line is way longer than any other team's in any other sport.

So either a) they're getting the wrong type of "team" players, you don't win with individualistic, vindictive players or b) likely there's something wrong with the people within the team's front office.

This is pretty much it for me, at this point. In the past I've given the club the benefit of the doubt - particularly because some of the previous subjects like Ali Gerba were crap in their time here, and sounded like they were just trying to pin that failure on anyone but themselves. They certainly never had any specific quotes to point to. In this case, it's this simple for me: If Mariner said this, he needs to be fired ASAP.

JDG could be the most disappointing player in the history of the universe, but you never say something that vindictive and unprofessional to a departing player. You thank him for his time here, wish him luck, and move on. I hope the press are all over Mariner about this allegation, and if he even sort-of admits he said it, he needs to be fired within an hour.

He won't be, but in a functional organization, this would be unacceptable. This is now a pattern - a pattern of players leaving this team, and having nothing but bad things to say about their experience. It's systematically torpedoing our reputation as a club, and that's something that will live on after Mariner has been told to go away.

- Scott

Derko
09-17-2012, 07:21 PM
What a bunch of goop TFC Management have become

ensco
09-17-2012, 07:24 PM
I hated Winter's treatment of Cann in early 2011, I think it was a bigger deal than this (but that incident was more about actions than words).

I find some of this just to be a referendum on what one already thinks. A lot of people liked Winter. Most don't like Mariner.

TOBOR !
09-17-2012, 07:26 PM
What's the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

African or European ?

TOBOR !
09-17-2012, 07:33 PM
Bravely bold Sir Mariner rode forth from BMO Field/ He was not afraid to die, O Brave Sir Mariner/ He was not at all afraid for his team to lose in nasty ways/ Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Mariner/ He was not the least bit scared for his team to be mashed into a pulp/ To have their eyes gouged out and their elbows broken/ To have their kneecaps split or their ACLs torn/ To have their limbs all hacked and mangled, brave Sir Mariner/ He was not afraid of having his players sent off, or to throw them under the bus/ Own goals scored, and penalties conceded/ Playing his players out of position, and acting all conceited/ oh brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Mariner.

Clop-clop Clop-clop Clop-clop Clop-clop

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2012, 07:39 PM
I hated Winter's treatment of Cann in early 2011, I think it was a bigger deal than this (but that incident was more about actions than words).

I find some of this just to be a referendum on what one already thinks. A lot of people liked Winter. Most don't like Mariner.

I think the major distinction here is simply that you have Mariner quoted by a first-party to the conversation as saying something completely unacceptable - whereas some of the other instances of player (mis)treatment were more open to interpretation and guessing about what was going on.

At this point I think it's pretty clear we've got a systemic problem that extended back beyond Mariner.

- Scott

ensco
09-17-2012, 07:43 PM
^Yes.

I have mostly come around to the majority view on this, it's increasingly obvious that Mariner does not have the gravitas to lead anything.

Sigh.

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2012, 07:53 PM
^Yes.

I have mostly come around to the majority view on this, it's increasingly obvious that Mariner does not have the gravitas to lead anything.

Sigh.

When Mariner first got the head post, I posted that even though I thought he should have been canned along with Winter, he wasn't, and now I was going to give him a chance. And at first, I thought it was encouraging that he was gutting out wins despite some pretty prehistoric tactics - the team seemed to rally around the change.

Since those three wins in a row? Not so much. Poor results, uninspired football, off the pitch lunacy, and the same-old ex-player anger... I've seen enough of Mariner.

- Scott

ensco
09-17-2012, 08:08 PM
I kind of liked the whole jumping-around-on-the-sideline, Elvis Costello thing, at first. It was funny.

Not funny if we still suck though.

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2012, 08:15 PM
I kind of liked the whole jumping-around-on-the-sideline, Elvis Costello thing, at first. It was funny.

Not funny if we still suck though.

Sure, I also found his sideline craziness endearing, the same as many found John Carver's animated sideline persona charming. But when the team is losing - and not only losing, but playing dreadfully - that kind of thing becomes an unwelcome sideshow. It makes it seem as though you're clueless and out-of-control.

- Scott

denime
09-17-2012, 08:21 PM
It's an assumption. Why would a generally well-respected coach:smilielol5: mean it any other way? It's a standard technique to start a meeting, and apologize for a speech problem. Toss in a bit of sarcastic humour ...

If his comments were along the lines of "Toronto FC players are all idiots" I'd be more concerned. I fail to understand why people would assume bad faith and choose to interpret it any other way.

Of course I wasn't there ... but people spend the day with him, and that's the worst they got?

On the other hand, who knows ... perhaps he was still hung over first thing Sunday morning.

Please enlighten us where is Mariner well respected coach?ML$E board room maybe?

Yohan
09-17-2012, 08:32 PM
Mariner generally has a good rep with the rest of mls...

Auzzy
09-17-2012, 08:34 PM
Mariner generally has a good rep with the rest of mls...

Well he had, based on his time as an assistant coach. I wonder what people are thinking now though...

ArmenJBX
09-17-2012, 08:42 PM
Correction. He was well regarded with MLS' old guard.

How many coaches are still around from that time?

The MLS has moved on. The league has changed. Case in point, look at Mariner's old club, New England. They're not exactly playoff quality either. As the league transitions into 4-3-3, technical football, Toronto playing physical hoof ball is not only going to get us burned repeatedly, it stunts our growth and sets us back.

DoubleUp
09-17-2012, 08:45 PM
Mariner generally has a good rep with the rest of mls...

Thats his whole selling point and why we are being subjected to this circus. Its one thing for people to like you, its another for that to translate into good football.

Chevy
09-17-2012, 08:49 PM
Correction. He was well regarded with MLS' old guard.

How many coaches are still around from that time?

The MLS has moved on. The league has changed. Case in point, look at Mariner's old club, New England. They're not exactly playoff quality either. As the league transitions into 4-3-3, technical football, Toronto playing physical hoof ball is not only going to get us burned repeatedly, it stunts our growth and sets us back.

This may sound completely insane to some, but maybe Winter was ahead of his time. We should have hired Mariner first - carrying on the shit show tradition that would have resulted in a COMPLETE house cleaning, paving the way for Winter, BDK, the 4-3-3 *AND* the proper front office to support it.

tfcleeds
09-17-2012, 09:02 PM
I admit, I was one of those that wanted Winter to go. Be careful what you wish for, I guess. Now I'm rather regretting that decision - I suppose I could have put up with a terrible season under Winter. At least it FELT like we were headed somewhere under him, despite the incredible disappointment because this was supposed to be the year we finally broke the duck (or so many of us thought). Now, under Mariner, I almost find myself pining for Mo. Its gotten that bad.

Yohan
09-17-2012, 09:10 PM
Correction. He was well regarded with MLS' old guard.

How many coaches are still around from that time?

The MLS has moved on. The league has changed. Case in point, look at Mariner's old club, New England. They're not exactly playoff quality either. As the league transitions into 4-3-3, technical football, Toronto playing physical hoof ball is not only going to get us burned repeatedly, it stunts our growth and sets us back.
4-3-3 isn't be all solution to everything. A lot of teams that play 4-3-3/4-5-1/4-2-3-1 aren't doing so well either.

Oldtimer
09-17-2012, 09:10 PM
Now, under Mariner, I almost find myself pining for Mo. Its gotten that bad.

I hear you. I was thinking fondly of one of the Preki games against a Mexican team in the CCL the other day! Scary! Remember when we used to do well in the CCL?

Yohan
09-17-2012, 09:14 PM
I admit, I was one of those that wanted Winter to go. Be careful what you wish for, I guess. Now I'm rather regretting that decision - I suppose I could have put up with a terrible season under Winter. At least it FELT like we were headed somewhere under him, despite the incredible disappointment because this was supposed to be the year we finally broke the duck (or so many of us thought). Now, under Mariner, I almost find myself pining for Mo. Its gotten that bad.I was prepared to give Mariner until early next season, but this latest unprofessional comments was the straw. Making derogatory comments about his players in public means he lost the locker room.

Now I want Winter back too.

ArmenJBX
09-17-2012, 09:15 PM
4-3-3 isn't be all solution to everything. A lot of teams that play 4-3-3/4-5-1/4-2-3-1 aren't doing so well either.

It's not about playing 4-3-3, it's about the shift in culture in MLS, whether it be 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 or any formation. The idea is, however, simple - the league wants to play smarter, technical football. It's moving away from hockey-on-grass and has become a lot less physical.

Yohan
09-17-2012, 09:21 PM
It's not about playing 4-3-3, it's about the shift in culture in MLS, whether it be 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 or any formation. The idea is, however, simple - the league wants to play smarter, technical football. It's moving away from hockey-on-grass and has become a lot less physical.

I'll buy that for two cents

Ajax TFC
09-17-2012, 09:24 PM
Mariner generally has a good rep with the rest of mls...
Like in New England where they are super happy to not have him as their coach? I remember going to the Revs forums after our game against them, and the general feeling was that they couldn't be happier to be done with the Mariner/Nicol style of play. Add that to the fact that he really has no reason to have rep as a coach since he's never actually had success as a coach in MLS or anywhere else for that matter...

ryan
09-17-2012, 09:35 PM
4-3-3 isn't be all solution to everything. A lot of teams that play 4-3-3/4-5-1/4-2-3-1 aren't doing so well either.

Pop quiz.

Name one hoofball club that's threatening for an MLS Cup or CCL trophy.

Don't worry, I can wait.

ArmenJBX
09-17-2012, 09:37 PM
I'll buy that for two cents

Two cents, do I hear three, three, three cents, do I hear three cents, two cents now, do I hear three..........

http://static.fimfiction.net/images/story_images/46607.jpg?1345672578

Luanda
09-17-2012, 09:37 PM
Like in New England where they are super happy to not have him as their coach? I remember going to the Revs forums after our game against them, and the general feeling was that they couldn't be happier to be done with the Mariner/Nicol style of play. Add that to the fact that he really has no reason to have rep as a coach since he's never actually had success as a coach in MLS or anywhere else for that matter...

I have resigned myself to the fact that Mariner should/must not be around TFC next year. But I, and everyone else, also need to keep in mind the reason why Mariner is the TFC manager in the first place: all of those who called for Winter's head have some, or rather quite a bit of, responsibility in this situation.

Sleep well ALL.

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2012, 09:41 PM
Pop quiz.

Name one hoofball club that's threatening for an MLS Cup or CCL trophy.

Don't worry, I can wait.

No need to be a dick. Bring it down.

- Scott

ryan
09-17-2012, 09:45 PM
No need to be a dick. Bring it down.

- Scott

Whoa. Just meant that it would take a long time because it's not going to be found.


ffs.

Ajax TFC
09-17-2012, 09:46 PM
I was a Winter supporter from the beginning to the end, however looking at it objectively, he wouldn't have done better without Mariner above him. The fact remains that he would need someone experienced in the league to do a lot of player acquisition. If he didn't have Mariner he would have been completely lost. That's not to say that he couldn't have been set up to succeed, but it would have needed someone experienced in the league to build him a roster under the cap. Instead of looking to the source of technical football (a student of Johan Cruijff) for a coach, look for a coach who has adapted that style to north american soccer already. I'm sure there are more than a few coaches in the American development pyramid who have had success playing that style.

In short: I don't want Winter back, I want someone who understands NA soccer and plays a technical game

ag futbol
09-17-2012, 09:51 PM
This may sound completely insane to some, but maybe Winter was ahead of his time. We should have hired Mariner first - carrying on the shit show tradition that would have resulted in a COMPLETE house cleaning, paving the way for Winter, BDK, the 4-3-3 *AND* the proper front office to support it.
So true.

Let's face it, Winter came in with a limited skill set and needed some people to support him. He needed someone to find players for him in addition to his own findings, neither really turned out very well. The ironic part is, as usual, the top dog takes the fall but everyone above or below that person is absent of accountability.

Ajax TFC
09-17-2012, 09:51 PM
I have resigned myself to the fact that Mariner should/must not be around TFC next year. But I, and everyone else, also need to keep in mind the reason why Mariner is the TFC manager in the first place: all of those who called for Winter's head have some, or rather quite a bit of, responsibility in this situation.

Sleep well ALL.
I resigned myself to the fact that Winter would have to go after 0-5. However, I also said that the people above him all had to go first because the current people would have no idea how to hire a proper successor who wouldn't have to change anything. As it turned out, the peopel above him didn't go first and his successor was exactly the way I feared he would be if those people were allowed to hire him

tfcleeds
09-17-2012, 09:56 PM
I think most of the people who wanted Winter gone also specified that they wanted a cleanup of the whole front office concurrently. Otherwise, there was going to be no real change from the status quo. And here we are.

ag futbol
09-17-2012, 10:01 PM
I think most of the people who wanted Winter gone also specified that they wanted a cleanup of the whole front office concurrently. Otherwise, there was going to be no real change from the status quo. And here we are.
Exactly. Really, we were sold a front office makeover, but really, nothing of the sort happened.

I want a real makeover this time.

Auzzy
09-17-2012, 10:42 PM
I resigned myself to the fact that Winter would have to go after 0-5. However, I also said that the people above him all had to go first because the current people would have no idea how to hire a proper successor who wouldn't have to change anything. As it turned out, the peopel above him didn't go first and his successor was exactly the way I feared he would be if those people were allowed to hire him

That's similar to what I thought. By around 0-5 or 0-7, I actually felt that Winter had to go in the short- or long-term, or perhaps be re-assigned to a role more suited to him. I wasn't sure how much of the failure was his part -- e.g., I never believed he was the one who found Andy Iro & a many other weak players; Winter would have benefited massively from having two top-notch CBs if they could have been found. (In the meantime, we know that the guy who was supposed to be finding the players at least according to the original job description, totally didn't agree with the whole direction; and now getting into complete hearsay ;) may have actively undermined Winter.) However, I was & am sure that Winter also wasn't getting the best out of the players that he had, and had a number of other issues.

HOWEVER as I said at the time, I still didn't want Winter fired; especially after the mini-turnaround near his end. The MLSE sale was approaching, and it was my naive hope that the new owners might get us a top-notch soccer president, or some other semblance of competent upper management. Although I felt Winter wasn't the right guy, I wanted them to tough it out until new management was in place, as I was worried the old management crew of Anselmi & Co should not be making any more firing & hiring decisions, and would screw things up even worse if they did. Sadly, that came to pass.

Oddly enough, although Mariner is a huge problem & I will relentlessly criticize all the dumb-ass things he does & says -- I still don't want Mariner fired at this instance. Because then it would be Anselmi & Co making another decision like that. I don't think there is anyone currently in place to make a competent firing & hiring decision. We would get some other half-baked candidate; most likely folks would start calling for his head immediately or within 6 months; the gong show would continue. Maybe it's best that Mariner fails as spectacularly as possible, under Anselmi & Cochrane. Maybe that would get the whole lot turfed; or at least get some top soccer exec in place to completely insulate TFC from Anselmi?

If Mariner gets fired now, in the off-season, or sometime next season, but the rest of the FO is left in place, I don't think ANY competent coach will want to come here -- and the FO won't know how to find a competent candidate anyway.


EDIT But Thomas Rongen as a caretaker coach or president might work, while they look for a top soccer exec to make the real decisions about a coach etc. I believe Rongen may be more interested in the Academy long term, so may be a good guy to serve as a caretaker w/o screwing everything up with his personal ambitions.

Back to reality, I'm afraid Rongen is actually preparing his exit strategy to go into broadcasting, and may be gone by next season....

tiberius
09-17-2012, 11:17 PM
some people don't know when to walk away...

http://www.cosplayisland.co.uk/files/costumes/6313/66489/CI_66489_1344008900.jpg

This is the absolute best depiction of nfitz that is possible - it doesn't matter if we are talking attendance, Mariner, De Guzman or if the sun will rise tomorrow. Is it really worth engaging a Monty Python "debater"? 'tiss not, well I think it is, tiss not, sigh - troll or not, it is not worth engaging... for him to argue what hearsay is, just shows he has not clue about anything worth discussing... I refuse to engage him further, no matter how outrageous the comments and arguments. No credibility. I hate being trolled...

ArmenJBX
09-17-2012, 11:19 PM
This is the 400,000th post on the Toronto FC section.

prizby
09-17-2012, 11:32 PM
Correction. He was well regarded with MLS' old guard.

How many coaches are still around from that time?

The MLS has moved on. The league has changed. Case in point, look at Mariner's old club, New England. They're not exactly playoff quality either. As the league transitions into 4-3-3, technical football, Toronto playing physical hoof ball is not only going to get us burned repeatedly, it stunts our growth and sets us back.

i think something like 17 out of 19 were involved in US Soccer, head coaches, assistants, or technical directors back when Paul was an assistant at New England