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TorontoGooner
09-15-2012, 04:11 PM
Afternoon all. Feel free to delete/comment/troll the following as you wish. Its an open forum after all. However, I feel I need to rant and get a few things off my chest.

Firstly, my as well as other fans' loyalty has been called into question (via Twitter) as we refuse to attend currently or renew next year. This does get me a little pissed off. Alas, I've even been referred to as a 'consumer'. Let's get one thing straight here. This is a 5 year old team that has next to no history, has failed to deliver and has frequently let down its support. On top of that, ticket prices have continue to rise as the quality drops.

I'm a loyal TFC fan. I've been to 6 away games at great expense, have held a season ticket for a while and bought a load of merchandise to show my pride. However, after all, I'm starting to get a little sick of the players not applauding their own away support, a lack of effort on the pitch and a board that has no idea what football is (yes, it's called football :P). But recently I decided to stop going as I'm literally chucking money away now. It's a form of a boycott, and I still watch the game at home on TV. I am, however, still going to as many away games as money allows.

I believe that until others start following suit the ongoing problems will never resolve themselves. By going every week and cheer leading a bunch of players who don't give a shit what the shirt means, you're sending out the message that you don't mind being ripped off every week. I loathe this "I'll be there through thick and thin" quote which people say to boast of their loyalty. It's ridiculous. This is a franchise after all that has a continuous squad rotation and really doesn't care for you. It's not a case that you're loyal through history, because you're family was to the badge or because you grew up as a kid admiring them. No. It's simple case that you happen to live closer to them than any other MLS team, or a franchise happened to move to your city.

Want to make a stand? Stop going. Stop singing. Stop letting the players with mediocre performances when they're paid decent money to live out what we'd kill for. I hate the MLSE as much as the next guy, so as they kill my club I'm not going to feed them. It's such a shame, and I feel sorry for every TFC fan, none more so the excellent fan groups the club has.

And here's the rather hypocritical point of this message. Stop moaning on internet forums and do something. Anything. Just make the point where it'll be noticed.

TFC Cityboy
09-15-2012, 04:30 PM
"Want to make a stand? Stop going. Stop singing. "That plan is working quite nicely, Gooner:)

Couchy81
09-15-2012, 04:32 PM
If loyalty means the number of games you go to on the entire season, you are dis-loyal for not going. those that go to every single game from day 1 have bragging rights that they never missed a game.

If loyalty means doing whatever it takes to help the club succeed, you are dis-loyal for continuing to put profits in the pockets of a corporation that doesn't know anything about running a soccer team. those that boycott the games and vie for change at the field and management level will have bragging rights that they helped put the club on the path to success.

TorontoGooner
09-15-2012, 04:54 PM
If loyalty means the number of games you go to on the entire season, you are dis-loyal for not going. those that go to every single game from day 1 have bragging rights that they never missed a game.

If loyalty means doing whatever it takes to help the club succeed, you are dis-loyal for continuing to put profits in the pockets of a corporation that doesn't know anything about running a soccer team. those that boycott the games and vie for change at the field and management level will have bragging rights that they helped put the club on the path to success.

Quite an interesting point mate

tiberius
09-15-2012, 09:01 PM
Want to make a stand? Stop going. Stop singing. Stop letting the players with mediocre performances when they're paid decent money to live out what we'd kill for. I hate the MLSE as much as the next guy, so as they kill my club I'm not going to feed them. It's such a shame, and I feel sorry for every TFC fan, none more so the excellent fan groups the club has.

And here's the rather hypocritical point of this message. Stop moaning on internet forums and do something. Anything. Just make the point where it'll be noticed.

I agree 100% - stop moaning - DO NOT RENEW YOUR SEASONS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you are going to renew, just stop the moaning - there is only one way to send a message, and everyone knows it. DO NOT RENEW.

If you like what is going on, by all means - renew. If you renew, please be quiet, as you are part of the problem, not the solution IMHO. Sharing you displeasure with MLSE/TFC on this site may be cathartic, but is useless, unless you refuse to renew.

If you are with T-boy, nfitz, Paul Bierne, Tom Anselmi, Cochroach and Marnier and think that things are just fine - if you enjoy Mariner's prancing on the sidelines and his throwing of his own hand picked players under the bus, please renew and go and enjoy the games - but if you are absolutely disgusted by the last six years of utter crap spewed by Anselmi, Beirne and Cochroach then stand up and be counted!!! You can go to the games anyway next year - send an EFFING MESSAGE NOW!

It is plain, and it is simple...

DO NOT RENEW!!

ArmenJBX
09-15-2012, 09:16 PM
I get the sentiment in not renewing, but I see one deep, long-term flaw.

If you don't renew, you lose your spot. Keep that in mind.

There's going to be people who are looking to buy spots in 111/112. If people don't renew, you don't get that spot back, even if Toronto FC start winning. If and when Toronto FC do start winning, those guys aren't going to drop their seasons. Since supporters groups don't distribute season tickets in those sections, people who fill them will keep them.

I've heard numerous, numerous people tell me they're renewing to 111/112/113 if they can, and they don't sing or chant or anything. They just think it's a cool spot to party. It's unfortunate, but it's also the reality. People will buy their tickets there and move. Now, one year later, you've got a bunch of unwilling supporters in those sections.

If that's what it takes, that's what it takes. All I'm hoping for is that the corner of supporters doesn't lose its long-term viability.

colman1860
09-15-2012, 09:19 PM
Seriously? You really think a bit of winning will bring us back to capacity? The novelty has run its course. It will not be hard to get tickets for TFC ever again, simple as.

tiberius
09-15-2012, 09:26 PM
I get the sentiment in not renewing, but I see one deep, long-term flaw.

If you don't renew, you lose your spot. Keep that in mind.

I hear what you are saying Armen but ... Spot? What spot? I can buy a ticket to any game, any time, for $5 and come and stand beside the boys in 112. Any day, any night, any time, $5. That will not change anytime soon. I will admit that I could be wrong if Paul Mariner is the second coming of Jesus Christ (in short pants) - other than that.. the $5 speaks for itself...

ArmenJBX
09-15-2012, 09:43 PM
I hear what you are saying Armen but ... Spot? What spot? I can buy a ticket to any game, any time, for $5 and come and stand beside the boys in 112. Any day, any night, any time, $5. That will not change anytime soon. I will admit that I could be wrong if Paul Mariner is the second coming of Jesus Christ (in short pants) - other than that.. the $5 speaks for itself...

It's not now that worries me.

If Toronto FC make playoffs, the stadium will be packed. The people will sit in their own seats. Those people in 111/112/113 who did not renew have given up that spot. Other people will fill them in. Then, when things get good again, supporters who are forced to sit in or around their own section will no longer have a spot in 111/112/113.

That's my concern

Wagner
09-15-2012, 09:53 PM
A couple of points...

1) It's just one guy that made the "consumer" comment. it's an opinion, take it or leave it. The guy has a history of stirring it up. I personally don't put a lot of stock in his takes.

2) I find "calling" out supporters like that doesn't help things. You attract more flies with honey...similar to people yelling at people to sing or yell more, rather than yelling at them for what the yeller perceives as poor performance, welcome them, and encourage them, it will go a lot further.

tiberius
09-15-2012, 10:16 PM
A couple of points...

1) It's just one guy that made the "consumer" comment. it's an opinion, take it or leave it. The guy has a history of stirring it up. I personally don't put a lot of stock in his takes.

2) I find "calling" out supporters like that doesn't help things. You attract more flies with honey...similar to people yelling at people to sing or yell more, rather than yelling at them for what the yeller perceives as poor performance, welcome them, and encourage them, it will go a lot further.

The folk who come out to support the team should always be encouraged and applauded. There is no "poor performance" that could possibly occur from the supporters sections - they are the best that Toronto FC has. The question really is: How can change be effected? Or for some: Is it my job to effect change? In the end, everyone has to figure out the answers to these questions for themselves... After six long years, there just don't seem to be a lot of viable options left, that might prompt a change of direction in the HMS Toronto FC...

Pookie
09-15-2012, 10:47 PM
It's not now that worries me.

If Toronto FC make playoffs, the stadium will be packed. The people will sit in their own seats. Those people in 111/112/113 (tel:111/112/113) who did not renew have given up that spot. Other people will fill them in. Then, when things get good again, supporters who are forced to sit in or around their own section will no longer have a spot in 111/112/113.

That's my concern

I see it a little differently. If empty seats abound, SGs will have the flexibility and open door that they need to talk about their own sections. We always talk about the idea of a unified area, the issue was always with existing seat holders. The fewer there are, the more space to move..no?

i also don't think that winning will pack the place beyond a 1 off game. People don't mind paying high prices for a game like Real Madrid, well the casual doesn't. But sustaining high prices for 19 games through a season is why many are walking away. Call it novelty if you like but to me it is simply economics, for me to drop over a $1,100 for north end seats is just ridiculous.

ArmenJBX
09-15-2012, 11:54 PM
I see it a little differently. If empty seats abound, SGs will have the flexibility and open door that they need to talk about their own sections. We always talk about the idea of a unified area, the issue was always with existing seat holders. The fewer there are, the more space to move..no?

i also don't think that winning will pack the place beyond a 1 off game. People don't mind paying high prices for a game like Real Madrid, well the casual doesn't. But sustaining high prices for 19 games through a season is why many are walking away. Call it novelty if you like but to me it is simply economics, for me to drop over a $1,100 for north end seats is just ridiculous.

Here's my scenario.

Let's say 100 people can fit in 111.
Out of those 100 people, only 30 renew. That leaves 70 open seats.
Then, 70 people from any other section decide to relocate to 111, since it's cheaper.

Now, you have 30 RPBs and 70 randoms.
Then, 2013 turns into Toronto's greatest season. They win a lot of games. Interest is really high again. But, there's 70 people out of the 100 now in 111, they're casual fans looking to save money, where before, there would be 100 RPBs willing to support and sing and chant.

When Toronto FC begins churning out 21,000 a game, people will have to sit in their own spot. Those 70 casuals now have 111 under control. That's their spot. They're gonna renew there too, since it's cheap.

It's like sitting in a room with a nice, big comfy Lazyboy surrounded by wooden stools. When you get up from that chair, someone is gonna take your spot, and you're going to come back and sit on a wooden stool.

Cashcleaner
09-16-2012, 02:42 AM
^ That is a very real, and very concerning scenario that all supporters need to consider. Very good point, Jimmy.

TorontoGooner
09-16-2012, 03:49 AM
Here's my scenario.

Let's say 100 people can fit in 111.
Out of those 100 people, only 30 renew. That leaves 70 open seats.
Then, 70 people from any other section decide to relocate to 111, since it's cheaper.

Now, you have 30 RPBs and 70 randoms.
Then, 2013 turns into Toronto's greatest season. They win a lot of games. Interest is really high again. But, there's 70 people out of the 100 now in 111, they're casual fans looking to save money, where before, there would be 100 RPBs willing to support and sing and chant.

When Toronto FC begins churning out 21,000 a game, people will have to sit in their own spot. Those 70 casuals now have 111 under control. That's their spot. They're gonna renew there too, since it's cheap.

It's like sitting in a room with a nice, big comfy Lazyboy surrounded by wooden stools. When you get up from that chair, someone is gonna take your spot, and you're going to come back and sit on a wooden stool.

Fair point. But I'd rather have a better football team than a section 112 supporters section. Who's to say we couldn't start elsewhere in another part of the ground? Sometimes you have to give up the lazyboy if it means you end up with at least a chair.

Pookie
09-16-2012, 07:46 AM
Armen, why are you assuming that the new visitors to 112 wouldn't join the RPB? Isn't that the mission to bring new ones into the mix?

in my scenario, the empty seats affords the SGs to establish a, hate to say it, Nordecke like area in which a unified support can be brought forward.

ArmenJBX
09-16-2012, 07:53 AM
I'm assuming that people will move to cheaper seats. This is a trend that will follow the entire south section. If my tickets cost me 600 and there's now seats open for 300, I buy the second option. I imagine many will think this way too.

They could very well be new RPBs. However, from people I've spoken to, the overwhelming majority are casual fans looking to save money. Once they get their hands on cheap seat in 111/112/113, they won't easily let go of them.

I hope I'm wrong though. Actually, I hope TFC gives control of this sections to supporters.

tfcleeds
09-16-2012, 08:03 AM
I also agree that having 112 isn't necessary for a supporters group, and who knows what may happen down the road. We may well, at some point, be given control of our own section, not necessarily 112. I wouldn't trust that to happen under the current regime, but who knows what may happen 5 years from now.

I agree with many sentiments of the OP. As the saying goes, "no pain, no gain". Sometimes in order to effect change, you have to make the uncomfortable decisions. Now I'm not going to tell people how to spend their money, or tell people to stop going to games if that is what they enjoy doing. But it does seem rather odd to me in some ways that some people insist on renewing, even after 6 years of utter futility. You could still go to as many games as your heart desires, and save money, by not renewing. This is the part I don't get. Maybe some people like having their seasons', or have a kind of attachment to their spots that makes them hard to give up. But by renewing, you are lining MLSE's pockets from the get-go, they have your money. Imagine if the most loyal support stopped buying merchandise, concessions, AND only bought walk-up tickets the day of the game? MLSE would be shitting their pants, and it might even be enough for them to think about getting out of the football business altogether.

By doing it this way, you can still go to games, save money, and hurt MLSE where it counts. I suppose the negatives are what people have mentioned (but I don't see BMO being filled at capacity again for a good many years down the road, and we'll have had to have some degree of success too before that happens) and the fact our unified support would be affected a bit. But there are other places in the stadium where RPB could congregate - these days, it doesn't seem to be that hard to find an empty section.

Just my 2 cents.

Huyton
09-16-2012, 08:51 AM
I have been wanting to get into the south stands since Day 1 when I realized how badly I'd misjudged the need for football. At least I'm in a supporters section now, but the tattered remnants of NEE don't even bang on their drum anymore, and they don't even bother to stand up to watch the game.

Frankly, I'm hoping for a lot of people not renewing so I, and my seatmates, can finally get into the south stands. The closer to 112/113 the better.

So yeah, people want your non-renewing seats. In our case, though, we'll be singing, chanting, clapping, jumping and standing the entire game, every game.

Abou Sky
09-16-2012, 09:39 AM
1. I find it hilarious that the only reason people can find to renew is to hold their seat, guess you can't just leave your hoodie there to hold it...

2. Both sides are right.

Personally, I will likely renew only if at allocation I can get cheap tix ($400 instead of $900 I am currently paying) otherwise I will probably just get them on the boards.

I don't think there are too many left that think you are disloyal for not renewing.

tiberius
09-16-2012, 10:10 AM
I'm assuming that people will move to cheaper seats. This is a trend that will follow the entire south section. If my tickets cost me 600 and there's now seats open for 300, I buy the second option. I imagine many will think this way too.

They could very well be new RPBs. However, from people I've spoken to, the overwhelming majority are casual fans looking to save money. Once they get their hands on cheap seat in 111/112/113, they won't easily let go of them.

I hope I'm wrong though. Actually, I hope TFC gives control of this sections to supporters.

Armen - I hear your fear and understand it. Unfortunately the dilution of the south end is a process that will be completed for the 2013 season. Keeping your own seat will not stop this happening. You just have to accept that you will have suits on one side of you and giggling "Socco" girls on the other. This is yet another incompetent foul up of Anselmi, Bierne + Cochrane. They will have to fix the supporter section debacle down the road - they know it is important (belatedly), but yet again, they have screwed the pooch... They will not be able to stop the dilution (although they will make platitudes and promises, blah, blah, blah...)

Given that the south end dilution will occur, the real issue comes down to: Will you prepay for your seats in order to save a smidgen of money? If you happen to miss a couple of games next year, you will actually lose money by prepaying. Why lock in all of those ticket sales for Tommy A? Why make their lives easy? Do they deserve an easy ride?

You may actually save money by buying individual tickets just by taking advantage of a grope-on and travelzoo deals, free KIA ticket give away, or perhaps buy a ticket for $5 from someone who can't make the game... Why make it easy on ABC + Mariner, to possibly save maybe $30 or $40? Just bite the bullet - pay an extra $40 and say yes to wanting a better product on the field, say yes to buying individual tickets.

As Tommy A. has famously said - it is all about supply and demand. If Tommy is supplied with a ton of prepaid tickets for a pathetic product (on and off the field) there is clearly not much of a demand for a better product. Where is the need or motivation to provide better soccer and soccer management if everybody prepays for seats to see a shitty product? There is no need - this is Toronto Maple Leaf/Anselmi logic 101. This has worked for decades....

On the other hand, if the team has to rely almost solely on walk up ticket sales next year, you can be assured that there will be a lot more (genuine) focus on the customer (better pricing, fan promotions etc.) There will also be real focus on getting a better product on the field in order to attract more "actual" attendance to the games. TV revenues are practically non-existent for TFC, so that won't save them. The route to making money for them will be to fill those seats. That is why a team like Columbus can be shitty one year and take the MLS Cup the next - their management is extremely motivated to fill seats as their revenue flow is tied to success.

Go to every game in 2013 - just don't prepay (and possibly overpay) so that ABC and Mariner can comfortably go into a 7th year of giving a complete load of crap to the fans and supporters of soccer in Toronto.

No matter what happens, or what route you take with season tickets, there will be plenty of room for you, in the south end, on game day, for the next few years...

nfitz
09-16-2012, 10:14 AM
I hear what you are saying Armen but ... Spot? What spot? I can buy a ticket to any game, any time, for $5 and come and stand beside the boys in 112. Any day, any night, any time, $5. That will not change anytime soon. I will admit that I could be wrong if Paul Mariner is the second coming of Jesus Christ (in short pants) - other than that.. the $5 speaks for itself...I'm curious. If no one renews, who will be selling you the $5 ticket?


By going every week and cheer leading a bunch of players who don't give a shit what the shirt means, you're sending out the message that you don't mind being ripped off every week.Did you you hear much in the way of cheering yesterday? 112/113 was very quiet - so quiet that you could communicate to people from one side of 113 to the other side of 112. The only singing I heard was Dichio ... until the goal, and some at the front of 112 felt the need to start banging the drum and start singing. Interesting I don't see those folks posting here ...

I think the message is getting through ... even if I bought a Steamwhistle.

Abou Sky
09-16-2012, 10:21 AM
As a note: how much worse could the south stand be?

Yesterday for the first 30 mins 113 was sitting and 114 sat the entire game as did 110

tiberius
09-16-2012, 10:41 AM
I'm curious. If no one renews, who will be selling you the $5 ticket?

Good point!:) In that case I guess we are stuck with a $10 travelzoo deal!

...


I think the message is getting through ... even if I bought a Steamwhistle.

I agree with you - the message that people are not happy with the product is getting through.

Unfortunately the senior management don't really care much if the fans are happy or not. They only care that game tickets are pre-paid a year in advance!

nfitz
09-16-2012, 10:47 AM
Good point!:) In that case I guess we are stuck with a $10 travelzoo deal!LOL! Touché.


Unfortunately the senior management don't really care much if the fans are happy or not. They only care that game tickets are pre-paid a year in advance!Everything I'm hearing, is that they'll be getting that message loud and clear from those in dark and medium grey.

I can't see how they can't consider a discount or a price reduction in those sections.

Abou Sky
09-16-2012, 11:31 AM
Everything I'm hearing, is that they'll be getting that message loud and clear from those in dark and medium grey.


You have it bang on! I will renew in 109 for $600, currently $900.

If there are no seats in $600 and cheaper range I will just get them off the boards and deal with the hassle.

Hoping for $400 tix, which is $1000 total less of my money they will get.

narduch
09-16-2012, 11:36 AM
I just want to make one comment, loyalty does not mean season tickets.

tiberius
09-16-2012, 01:10 PM
LOL! Touché.

Everything I'm hearing, is that they'll be getting that message loud and clear from those in dark and medium grey.

I can't see how they can't consider a discount or a price reduction in those sections.

I agree.

Can they pull the trigger and make a big enough cut in prices to actually entice folk to pre-purchase a ticket for every game next year? I don't think they have the guts or the intelligence to realize that a 30%-40% is required in order to nurse this franchise back to health. I have a feeling the best that they can do is a half-hearted, watered down discount of some sort, that won't have much impact - I guess we will have to wait and see what they come up with...

Pookie
09-16-2012, 01:36 PM
I also agree that having 112 isn't necessary for a supporters group, and who knows what may happen down the road. We may well, at some point, be given control of our own section, not necessarily 112. I wouldn't trust that to happen under the current regime, but who knows what may happen 5 years from now.

I agree with many sentiments of the OP. As the saying goes, "no pain, no gain". Sometimes in order to effect change, you have to make the uncomfortable decisions. Now I'm not going to tell people how to spend their money, or tell people to stop going to games if that is what they enjoy doing. But it does seem rather odd to me in some ways that some people insist on renewing, even after 6 years of utter futility. You could still go to as many games as your heart desires, and save money, by not renewing. This is the part I don't get. Maybe some people like having their seasons', or have a kind of attachment to their spots that makes them hard to give up. But by renewing, you are lining MLSE's pockets from the get-go, they have your money. Imagine if the most loyal support stopped buying merchandise, concessions, AND only bought walk-up tickets the day of the game? MLSE would be shitting their pants, and it might even be enough for them to think about getting out of the football business altogether.

By doing it this way, you can still go to games, save money, and hurt MLSE where it counts. I suppose the negatives are what people have mentioned (but I don't see BMO being filled at capacity again for a good many years down the road, and we'll have had to have some degree of success too before that happens) and the fact our unified support would be affected a bit. But there are other places in the stadium where RPB could congregate - these days, it doesn't seem to be that hard to find an empty section.

Just my 2 cents.

I would agree.

I would add something that I posted in the members section in that those that are renewing and those that have had enough are actually closer than we think.

Those that are renewing, generally, are those that have the cheapest seats in the house. Relative term of course because our cheapest vantage point is still the most expensive with compared with similar vantage. If not, they are those that are hoping to move to the cheaper section at relocation time.

Essentially, they are on side with the idea that tickets are in desperate need of a price reset.

Those that aren't renewing share that view. They may also feel a hopelessness with the direction of the club and think that the best way to do it is send a message with their wallets.

For me, I'm not renewing unless there is a price reset across the board (and Earl is replaced as the defactor leader of this team). If I renew and relocate to cheaper seats, the guy that takes my overpriced north end seats is still paying a few hundred more than the league average. In a revenue shared league, this is inexcusable.

Fort York Redcoat
09-16-2012, 03:41 PM
This potbanging protest talk is self justification for leaving the stadium- something no one wants to do. If you want to paint yourself a martyr for not going I understand- We'd all rather be there but this constant shouting at people who decide they want to stick it out is unacceptable.

And Cityfan, did you not just post the chant to raise awareness of the 96 this week? Now you're saying "Stop singing"? Yeah, I know the difference but the very few left around the stadium won't know anything but the fact we're singing. Mixed message.

I will stop going when I can't afford it or if family responsibility trumps it. I'll stop singing when I have no voice.

I can't believe that this attitude is going to become a minority on a supporters site.

pdogg
09-16-2012, 03:47 PM
One thing to add to Armens argument is that right now those in 112/113 have been accommodating to those visiting if there is room and they contribute. Will those people who replace them be as understanding? How will they react to someone encroaching on their space or in their seats?

I sit in 110 and usually sit 2-3 seats down from my actual seats to allow people to sit together, on any given game. But I've seen a few times when there was an almost empty row and they ask them to move. It is their seats, so I don't blame them. There just isn't the same goodwill as in the south stands - and those people are coming south.

Its unfortunate that we couldn't have a system where the people that only wanted to go to a few games a year got together and split the seat. You wouldn't be able to pick it up for $5/$10, but at least the seats would go to those you knew.

Pookie
09-16-2012, 05:18 PM
^ I don't disagree Fort York.

I just wish that we would stop equating not renewing with not going. Fans are looking for value and right now, buying tickets on the resale market is better than buying them from the FO.

Sort of like cross border shopping. Overcharge in Canada for the same good you can buy for cheaper in Buffalo and who in their right mind wouldn't want to make the short drive to get the same product at a less expensive price?

Ricky_Portugal
09-17-2012, 01:40 AM
I've tried to stay away from this debate on loyalty to the club yes we may have had nothing but 6 years of misery but as well all know rome wasn't built in a day football clubs in europe have a die hard following due to years of history but how do u want us to habe that same kind of history if everyones jumping ship like I may have only been a supporter since 2008 but I have the badge tattooed on me not because were winners in every game we play but because this will forever be my club from great to good to bad to worse so just my 2 cents but that is how I feel

Brooker
09-17-2012, 02:29 AM
Measure thy penis!

TOBOR !
09-17-2012, 05:45 AM
I've tried to stay away from this debate on loyalty to the club.
Yes, we may have had nothing but 6 years of misery, but as we all know 'Rome wasn't built in a day'.
Football clubs in Europe have a die hard following due to years of history, but how do you want us to have that same kind of history if everyone's jumping ship?
I may have only been a supporter since 2008, but I have the badge tattooed on me ( not because we're winners in every game we play, but because this will forever be my club).
From great to good, to bad, or worse.
Just my 2 cents but that is how I feel.

Adjusted for clarity.

Fort York Redcoat
09-17-2012, 07:11 AM
^ I don't disagree Fort York.

I just wish that we would stop equating not renewing with not going. Fans are looking for value and right now, buying tickets on the resale market is better than buying them from the FO.

Sort of like cross border shopping. Overcharge in Canada for the same good you can buy for cheaper in Buffalo and who in their right mind wouldn't want to make the short drive to get the same product at a less expensive price?

This is a bigger test for me than renewing or not. Supporting this "Resale market" is supporting legal scalping. I can't bring myself to do it. The club doesn't care what happens or who buys those tix once they're bought. That's on them. I care that my money supports the scum.

I fully support people renewing looking at relocating for pricepoint. I hope people think about that before they go to scalpers.

TFC John
09-17-2012, 07:58 AM
Measure thy penis!

That's the most insightful comment I've seen in a long time.

TOBOR !
09-17-2012, 08:05 AM
That's the most insightful comment I've seen in a long time.

no it's not.

TOBOR !
09-17-2012, 08:09 AM
This is a bigger test for me than renewing or not. Supporting this "Resale market" is supporting legal scalping. I can't bring myself to do it. The club doesn't care what happens or who buys those tix once they're bought. That's on them. I care that my money supports the scum.

I fully support people renewing looking at relocating for pricepoint. I hope people think about that before they go to scalpers.

I'd only consider using the Ticket Exchange we have set up with regards to a 'resale market'.

I get tickets to a match, I can reasonably select where and how much I want to pay, and someone moves tickets they'd otherwise be stuck with.

There'll always be something available, no doubt.

Ben - D.O.W.
09-17-2012, 09:29 AM
I'd only consider using the Ticket Exchange we have set up with regards to a 'resale market'.

I get tickets to a match, I can reasonably select where and how much I want to pay, and someone moves tickets they'd otherwise be stuck with.

There'll always be something available, no doubt.

Yeah and the way the ticket trader is headed they won't be far off the $5 or $10 a ticket either. You regularly see pairs on their for $20 or $30.

TOBOR !
09-17-2012, 09:33 AM
Yeah and the way the ticket trader is headed they won't be far off the $5 or $10 a ticket either. You regularly see pairs on their for $20 or $30.

I meant it in a way to help out fellow RPB, not screw them over (I know that's not what you meant).

There should be a fair price. I'd happily pay cost. Everybody wins.

Ben - D.O.W.
09-17-2012, 09:40 AM
I meant it in a way to help out fellow RPB, not screw them over (I know that's not what you meant).

There should be a fair price. I'd happily pay cost. Everybody wins.

Oh yeah - I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

But again the ticket trader is a supply and demand thing - there are even enough tickets on the ticket trader now that prices get driven down, someone puts a pair up in 111 for $40 (cost) and before it gets sold someone else sees it when putting theirs up so offers them for $30 and down we go. It used to be charging face you'd sell them pretty quickly, now you can't get rid of them for half price (I've got an 8 month old at home and haven't gotten to use as many tickets as I'd like this year). It definitely says something about this team when plenty of under priced tickets (in prime sections like 111-113) go unsold on a supporters forum.

MartinUtd
09-17-2012, 09:40 AM
The argument that we should keep buying tickets just in case they start winning smacks of a MoJo 5 year plan. By all means keep buying your tickets if you enjoy the game day experience, but if you're only buying tickets to hold out for the future then you know what they say about a fool and their money...

Fort York Redcoat
09-17-2012, 09:45 AM
The argument that we should keep buying tickets just in case they start winning smacks of a MoJo 5 year plan. By all means keep buying your tickets if you enjoy the game day experience, but if you're only buying tickets to hold out for the future then you know what they say about a fool and their money...

And I'm bringing it up again because it is a belief, not an argument. My point is that there are not as many people saying they want to stick it out and if they wish to voice that they should be free to without the foolish remarks. The namecalling is going one way here.

tfcleeds
09-17-2012, 09:57 AM
I certainly have no problem with people renewing if their aim is to get their seasons tix at a lower pricepoint. Between the people that do that, and those that just aren't renewing period, it's sending a message to the powers that be.

MartinUtd
09-17-2012, 10:24 AM
And I'm bringing it up again because it is a belief, not an argument. My point is that there are not as many people saying they want to stick it out and if they wish to voice that they should be free to without the foolish remarks. The namecalling is going one way here.

As I said, if you enjoy the game day experience, then great. More power to you. But I'm sorry, something needs to be said to the people who are using scare tactics to encourage other people to fork over their hard earned money because the already debased supporters sections could get worse.

Fort York Redcoat
09-17-2012, 10:39 AM
As I said, if you enjoy the game day experience, then great. More power to you. But I'm sorry, something needs to be said to the people who are using scare tactics to encourage other people to fork over their hard earned money because the already debased supporters sections could get worse.

Please elaborate on "Scare tactics".

MartinUtd
09-17-2012, 10:49 AM
The main points I take issue with are:

-Atmosphere will get worse than it already is if you don't keep renewing
-You won't be able to get tickets when they're winning if you don't renew

Now, don't get this confused with a statement like "anyone still going is a sucker" because I didn't say that and have never believed that. But those points listed above are (relatively benign) scare tactics being used to influence other people's renewal decisions; it's all hearsay anyways.

trane
09-17-2012, 11:09 AM
Fair point. But I'd rather have a better football team than a section 112 supporters section. Who's to say we couldn't start elsewhere in another part of the ground? Sometimes you have to give up the lazyboy if it means you end up with at least a chair.

this is the fucking point. What is more important to you that TFC are not a shite team, or being seen as a supporter and having tickets in the "supporters" section, just so that you can say that you are a supporter, but TFC stays as shit as they are.


Shit or not, I would renew tickets, if I new that we had a club that was truly doing the best it could in terms of improving. But when you have a FO as shite as we have, you have to send a message, for the sake of the long terms health of the team and the game. The club will surivive one season without profits, but a couple of more seasons of this shite football, and how knows.

trane
09-17-2012, 11:14 AM
I've tried to stay away from this debate on loyalty to the club yes we may have had nothing but 6 years of misery but as well all know rome wasn't built in a day football clubs in europe have a die hard following due to years of history but how do u want us to habe that same kind of history if everyones jumping ship like I may have only been a supporter since 2008 but I have the badge tattooed on me not because were winners in every game we play but because this will forever be my club from great to good to bad to worse so just my 2 cents but that is how I feel

What has this club done to deserve your loyalty?? If this keeps up you will not have a club to stay loyal too.

brad
09-17-2012, 11:14 AM
Shit or not, I would renew tickets, if I new that we had a club that was truly doing the best it could in terms of improving. But when you have a FO as shite as we have, you have to send a message, for the sake of the long terms health of the team and the game. The club will surivive one season without profits, but a couple of more seasons of this shite football, and how knows.

Key point for me here.

Fort York Redcoat
09-17-2012, 11:26 AM
The main points I take issue with are:

-Atmosphere will get worse than it already is if you don't keep renewing
-You won't be able to get tickets when they're winning if you don't renew

Now, don't get this confused with a statement like "anyone still going is a sucker" because I didn't say that and have never believed that. But those points listed above are (relatively benign) scare tactics being used to influence other people's renewal decisions; it's all hearsay anyways.

Okay but who is using these relatively benign scare tactics?? I think number one is just common knowledge no one is saying aloud and the second is something from a dated season renewal that no one here believed back then much less now.

I don't see people shouting at others to stay. People staying know exactly why people are going.

ryan
09-17-2012, 11:33 AM
this is the fucking point. What is more important to you that TFC are not a shite team, or being seen as a supporter and having tickets in the "supporters" section, just so that you can say that you are a supporter, but TFC stays as shit as they are.


Shit or not, I would renew tickets, if I new that we had a club that was truly doing the best it could in terms of improving. But when you have a FO as shite as we have, you have to send a message, for the sake of the long terms health of the team and the game. The club will surivive one season without profits, but a couple of more seasons of this shite football, and how knows.

This this and fucking this.


This is why I have an issue with the "loyalists" that will renew till they die. If MLSE ruins casual interest to the point of no return, that blood is on their hands, not mine. Stopping this shit is the only way to save us at this point. I just cannot see any other way than saying enough to make a difference and support the long term health of this club. Staying away is what is needed.

Pookie
09-17-2012, 11:50 AM
This is a bigger test for me than renewing or not. Supporting this "Resale market" is supporting legal scalping. I can't bring myself to do it. The club doesn't care what happens or who buys those tix once they're bought. That's on them. I care that my money supports the scum.

I fully support people renewing looking at relocating for pricepoint. I hope people think about that before they go to scalpers.

Legal scalping? Buying tickets on our exchange (or elsewhere) at or below face value?

narduch
09-17-2012, 11:53 AM
Legal scalping? Buying tickets on our exchange (or elsewhere) at or below face value?

Or even on Craigslist or Kijiji where people are dumping them.

Even the Travelzoo and Groupon sales are better than the box office.

The days of over priced tickets on Stub Hub type sites are over.

Its not really scalping if its below cost.

tfcleeds
09-17-2012, 11:59 AM
^Have to agree with this sentiment (ryan's post). And again, not to dismiss people who still go to games and enjoy doing so - that is their decision, and their money to spend. But it has been said more than once on this board (and certainly implied a million times) that if you stop going you are being disloyal and are not a "supporter". That couldn't be further from the truth. Look at supporters groups around the world - they too have voted with their feet when they felt management was running the team into the ground, and harming it's long-term future - in an effort to place pressure on management to either change the status quo or to GTFO. I guess from my point of view, it would just be nice to see the supporters groups, the loyal core of the following of this club, after 6 years of management ineptitude and arrogance towards the fans, take a bit more of a hardline approach. But that's just my opinion.

TFC Cityboy
09-17-2012, 12:27 PM
This potbanging protest talk is self justification for leaving the stadium- something no one wants to do. If you want to paint yourself a martyr for not going I understand- We'd all rather be there but this constant shouting at people who decide they want to stick it out is unacceptable.

And Cityfan, did you not just post the chant to raise awareness of the 96 this week? Now you're saying "Stop singing"? Yeah, I know the difference but the very few left around the stadium won't know anything but the fact we're singing. Mixed message.

I will stop going when I can't afford it or if family responsibility trumps it. I'll stop singing when I have no voice.

I can't believe that this attitude is going to become a minority on a supporters site.

I had copied/pasted Gooner's comment and opined that the support was well down that road already (at least that was my intent as opposed to actually recommending we stop singing.)
"Want to make a stand? Stop going. Stop singing. "That plan is working quite nicely, Gooner:)
To be honest, aside from a couple of heart-hearted chants and the Dichio, 115 has fallen as quiet as the rest of the ground. All were sitting up until row 16 and up.
Loudest singing of the day seemed to be kids yelling TFC TFC TFC near the end of the match.
When it comes to the on-field product there is nothing to sing about and if most of the players can't be arsed, not sure that I can be, to be honest.

As I've already stated in other discussions on the boards, I am one of those who wants us to lose the rest of our matches to MLSE is unable to spin any kind of late-season recovery and save PM's job (as well as others).
Sad times indeed, mate

Fort York Redcoat
09-17-2012, 12:33 PM
^Have to agree with this sentiment (ryan's post). And again, not to dismiss people who still go to games and enjoy doing so - that is their decision, and their money to spend. But it has been said more than once on this board (and certainly implied a million times) that if you stop going you are being disloyal and are not a "supporter". That couldn't be further from the truth. Look at supporters groups around the world - they too have voted with their feet when they felt management was running the team into the ground, and harming it's long-term future - in an effort to place pressure on management to either change the status quo or to GTFO. I guess from my point of view, it would just be nice to see the supporters groups, the loyal core of the following of this club, after 6 years of management ineptitude and arrogance towards the fans, take a bit more of a hardline approach. But that's just my opinion.

And I appreciate the respecting others decisions but I think this growing sensitivity from those leaving is completely out of hand lopsided. If everyone is backlashing dated implications that's just not good enough. People wanting to find like-minded individuals is one thing. People relying on imagined slights to band together is unnecessary. Stay or go I hope to see you all in the stands again when we all get to see what we want from this team.

trane
09-17-2012, 12:33 PM
Fluke wins by Mariner are about the worse thing that can happen to TFC right now.

tfcleeds
09-17-2012, 01:07 PM
Fair enough, Pete. And if, as you and others have already pointed out, it seems as though many in 112 from Day 1 and other STHs from the beginning have already decided to walk,people who wish to stay shouldn't be harangued into not doing so. It all basically comes down to everybody's personal decision/stance on the matter. As much as I might personally want to see a more co-ordinated effort by the SGs to really show their displeasure to MLSE in a way that hasn't been done so far (and that still allows people to go to games who want to go) at the end of the day it really is the decision of each SSH what they feel they need to do, if anything.

tiberius
09-17-2012, 10:17 PM
Please elaborate on "Scare tactics".

The age old FUD - "Fear Uncertainty and Doubt" For Example:

- if you don't renew you will lose your admission to BMO forever
- if you don't renew we have 10 more people all over your ticket like a monkey on a cupcake
- if I don't renew you will never be able to stand again in 112 (or 110,111,113,114,115,116,117)
- if you don't renew, you won't get cheap tickets to a game...
- if you don't renew, you are not a supporter
- if you don't renew my overall ticket cost will increase in 2013...
- if you don't renew, you won't have tix when TFC makes the MLS cup in 2013...
- if you don't renew we will keep Mariner for another year!! :):)
- if you don't renew, we will keep Anselmi
- if you don't renew, we will keep Cochroach
- if you don't renew, we will keep Bierne
- if you don't renew, will will continue to lose
- if you don't renew we will continue to play hoof ball
- if you don't renew, you will fall off of Tommy A.'s Christmas card list...

Do you want me to go on? These are scare tactics... I could go on...:):):):) (It gets worse...)

Yagbod
09-17-2012, 10:47 PM
Wow, nice summary.

It will be interesting to see how this conversation will swing when they announce the price/package. It all depends on that. Anything now is just conjecture.

Oddly I have a feeling that they will do the right thing by lowering prices and throwing in a few new perks. Sadly it will never be enough for many and this conversation will rage on, but with substance.

I am enjoying the relative civility too. Keep it up!

TorontoGooner
09-18-2012, 03:49 AM
this is the fucking point. What is more important to you that TFC are not a shite team, or being seen as a supporter and having tickets in the "supporters" section, just so that you can say that you are a supporter, but TFC stays as shit as they are.


Shit or not, I would renew tickets, if I new that we had a club that was truly doing the best it could in terms of improving. But when you have a FO as shite as we have, you have to send a message, for the sake of the long terms health of the team and the game. The club will surivive one season without profits, but a couple of more seasons of this shite football, and how knows.

Spot on

Fort York Redcoat
09-18-2012, 07:02 AM
The age old FUD - "Fear Uncertainty and Doubt" For Example:

- if you don't renew you will lose your admission to BMO forever
- if you don't renew we have 10 more people all over your ticket like a monkey on a cupcake
- if I don't renew you will never be able to stand again in 112 (or 110,111,113,114,115,116,117)
- if you don't renew, you won't get cheap tickets to a game...
- if you don't renew, you are not a supporter
- if you don't renew my overall ticket cost will increase in 2013...
- if you don't renew, you won't have tix when TFC makes the MLS cup in 2013...
- if you don't renew we will keep Mariner for another year!! :):)
- if you don't renew, we will keep Anselmi
- if you don't renew, we will keep Cochroach
- if you don't renew, we will keep Bierne
- if you don't renew, will will continue to lose
- if you don't renew we will continue to play hoof ball
- if you don't renew, you will fall off of Tommy A.'s Christmas card list...

Do you want me to go on? These are scare tactics... I could go on...:):):):) (It gets worse...)

Go on as much as you like it's all conjecture. No one from FO is saying this and more than half you say in your post is wild accusation. No one is saying this and you sound ridiculous.

Scare tactics are not being used. You are making wild generalizations for effect. I'm sorry for anyone who actually believes this.

But I think by the end of your "list" you're just trying to have fun so go for it I guess. I just won't take you seriously.

narduch
09-18-2012, 07:25 AM
The club isn't using scare tactics (not at this time anyways). Although if I was a SSH trying to relocated from expensive to cheap seats, I wouldn't take the risk that you will show up on relocation day and find good cheap seats.

I do think some of the team's media mouthpieces (ex. Rollins, Larson) are trying to guilt fans into renewing. Questioning their loyalty, calling them consumers instead of fans.

Fort York Redcoat
09-18-2012, 07:51 AM
The club isn't using scare tactics (not at this time anyways). Although if I was a SSH trying to relocated from expensive to cheap seats, I wouldn't take the risk that you will show up on relocation day and find good cheap seats.

I do think some of the team's media mouthpieces (ex. Rollins, Larson) are trying to guilt fans into renewing. Questioning their loyalty, calling them consumers instead of fans.

Apologies to tiberius if Larson and Rollins was who he was inferencing. Still doesn't account for half the accusations but I thought most here are above what journos say.

Thanks for pointing it out narduch.

tiberius
09-20-2012, 09:14 PM
Apologies to tiberius if Larson and Rollins was who he was inferencing. Still doesn't account for half the accusations but I thought most here are above what journos say.

Thanks for pointing it out narduch.

Hey - I wasn't actually targeting the FO particularly - as you pointed out, by the second half of the list, I was starting to just have fun. I think some folk worry about the various points mentioned, so FO, Journalists and posters could all play upon these fears. Don't get too bent out of shape York - I am trying to apply some humour to our pretty sad situation.:)