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jabbronies
09-01-2012, 09:34 PM
So I heard on the fan590 that Torsten is back in Germany getting his hip looked at.

I'm assuming this is the last we've seen from him?

Richard
09-01-2012, 09:57 PM
Would not supprise me if he told the organization to fuck off.

Classy player forced to play with players who would barley make League 2 teams, insane coach with no idea on how to act profesional or demonstrate basic tactical knowledge.

Then to top it off he gets shit on by the coach when he is not the only guilty party, yes he has been lackluster this year but mostly because of the tactics and players around him.

I think Koevs can now come out and say this is the worst ORGANIZATION in the wolrd now.

Auzzy
09-01-2012, 10:04 PM
I guess he's been Dichio'd. Knee, hip, whatever. Shortly Frings will be on the Wall of Honour and have a new job as a youth coach. Lucky for him the job will be with a classy outfit (Werder Bremen) and not with this shit show.

Toronto_Bhoy
09-01-2012, 10:11 PM
Frings has a lot mileage on that body.

League. Champions League. National Team. MLS.

I fear we have seen the last of him.

Code Red
09-01-2012, 10:12 PM
I have to ask, do we deserve a world class player like Frings? Perhaps the better question is, does a world class player like that deserve to be treated like a used rag? The man came here b/c he was sold feces in a nicely wrapped package. Hell, he probably didn't know any better. I doubt he did enough research to see how much of an embarrassment this franchise is. Probably came here thinking we were a decent organization with a promising vision and a coach who wanted to implement an attacking style of football, one of which he was used to from his playing days in the Bundesliga. Instead, he had to settle for this shit.

Quite frankly, I feel terrible for the guy. He deserves better, a lot of these players deserve better.

69Chevy396
09-01-2012, 10:29 PM
For the most part I agree with you, but please, this was no L Messi. Torsten had a lot of poor outings early in the season

DangerRed
09-01-2012, 11:36 PM
Oh my lowpoint. Even our overpaid DP midfielder-who-we-make-play-at-back doesn't want to play here.

JuliquE
09-02-2012, 12:23 AM
For the most part I agree with you, but please, this was no L Messi. Torsten had a lot of poor outings early in the season
Fair enough, but we were getting a lot more out of him with Winter, than we were with Mariner.

As I've mentioned elsewhere: Frings hasn't lost a whole lot to his game in the span of months. More likely is that we're seeing -- err, we saw -- a decline in his effectiveness, since he was never suited to a kick and rush, physical style.

He was solid for us, last year and that's down to playing a more cerebral game.. now nullified by the ball bypassing the midfield or, when he does get it, on a team built for kick and rush, having no one read where he's playing it and, thus, looking like our worst passer of the ball.

I think that the off season takes a bigger toll on the older players, hence a few blips early on.. but no one was exempt from lacking sharpness.

For me, Mariner looks like an egotistical snake and I find it comical when he speaks, as I don't believe a single word. I've long stopped bothering to listen to any of his interviews, but had to catch this and suffice it to say that my views on the man have only been solidified.

jazzy
09-02-2012, 12:47 AM
Fair enough, but we were getting a lot more out of him with Winter, than we were with Mariner.

As I've mentioned elsewhere: Frings hasn't lost a whole lot to his game in the span of months. More likely is that we're seeing -- err, we saw -- a decline in his effectiveness, since he was never suited to a kick and rush, physical style.

He was solid for us, last year and that's down to playing a more cerebral game.. now nullified by the ball bypassing the midfield or, when he does get it, on a team built for kick and rush, having no one read where he's playing it and, thus, looking like our worst passer of the ball.

I think that the off season takes a bigger toll on the older players, hence a few blips early on.. but no one was exempt from lacking sharpness.

For me, Mariner looks like an egotistical snake and I find it comical when he speaks, as I don't believe a single word. I've long stopped bothering to listen to any of his interviews, but had to catch this and suffice it to say that my views on the man have only been solidified.

^^perfect summation...nothing to add....Frings was a pro ,..few in this organization are

Brooker
09-02-2012, 12:52 AM
Would not supprise me if he told the organization to fuck off.

Classy player forced to play with players who would barley make League 2 teams, insane coach with no idea on how to act profesional or demonstrate basic tactical knowledge.

Then to top it off he gets shit on by the coach when he is not the only guilty party, yes he has been lackluster this year but mostly because of the tactics and players around him.

I think Koevs can now come out and say this is the worst ORGANIZATION in the wolrd now.

Miserable much? These posts are embarrassing.

Mak
09-02-2012, 01:04 AM
I hope he is not gone.

Richard
09-02-2012, 01:22 AM
Miserable much? These posts are embarrassing.

Is there anything in my post that is not true apart from the specualtion?

Brooker
09-02-2012, 02:09 AM
Is there anything in my post that is not true apart from the specualtion?

The part where you said Toronto is the worst sporting organization in the world and the fact that Frings was "forced" to play with anybody.

ensco
09-02-2012, 05:56 AM
He didn't just leave. There's the small matter of the $3million + Torsten is still owed.

If it's a longterm injury, and they can all satisfy the insurance people it's legit, then sure, I suspect he's gone. But insurance company doctors weren't born yesterday.

Never a dull moment.

ag futbol
09-02-2012, 06:29 AM
^ Interesting idea. Perhaps Larson's quote in the article about Frings receiving treatment for a hip injury is more than it seems.

I don't know where the "hip expert" in world sports is... could very well be in Germany, but at the least it all smells funny.

Pookie
09-02-2012, 06:33 AM
Here's a different theme.

Rongren is pretty close to the organization, you know, working for it and all that Academy jazz. So to not mention it and in fact say he is back in Toronto either implies that he isn't aware of what is happening with the club's captain or he is aware and there is a cone of silence on the issue.

Troubling either way. It doesn't need to look like a "cover up" but it kinda does when you consider Plata, DeRo, Dichio stories all had this element of secrecy to them.

v00d00daddy
09-02-2012, 06:51 AM
After head coach Paul Mariner called out his captain’s defending Tuesday, Torsten Frings’ exclusion at Livestrong Park turned heads in the buildup. The German will receive treatment for a hip injury in the coming weeks

From Larson's Sun article.

Him saying that Frings will be receiving treatment in the coming weeks means he knows, definitively, that Frings is done for the season.

Now...did anyone actually see or hear anything about Frings's hip that would lead you to believe its a season ending injury?

I know I didn't.

I know it's just speculation but everyone should watch the sideline video where Paul Hendricks interviews Mariner on the subject. This all leads me to believe that Frings is gonzo. Ever since Mariner came in he's looked disinterested and his play has declined. It's kinda hard to be a midfielder, captain, calming force when so little of the play comes through your part of the field.

Whatever happens....I hope Frings is totally candid about what happened at TFC.

I know I'm talking like he's already gone. I may be way off and it may just be wishful thinking because frankly, I don't think this team deserves a player like Frings anymore. If the coach prefers Dunfield, then let him have Dunfield. If the coach prefers Hall over Kocic then let him have Hall. If the coach prefers O'Dea over Nesta then so be it.

And if we as supporters prefer Mariner over anything then we get what we deserve.

And TFC will get the same. An empty stadium. It's so sad to see how far this club has fallen. Apparently we're too good for Torsten Frings. Apparently Paul Mariner is such a good coach that when Frings makes a mistake it totally undoes all of Mariners planning and hard work. LOL

Mark in Ottawa
09-02-2012, 06:58 AM
without looking for conspiracy theories maybe this is just a case of a player having a "persistent niggling injury" at the end of a lost season. So he is given time to look at rehab options to make a decision regarding next season sooner than later.

Remember he was injured earlier in the season. Will he be back?? I hope so.

Cashcleaner
09-02-2012, 07:11 AM
^ Yeah, you know how Occam's Razor goes. The simplest explanation is the most likeliest. This sounds about right to me.

ensco
09-02-2012, 07:18 AM
^ Yeah, you know how Occam's Razor goes.

Occam's Razor is not much use in pro sports, given the general culture of dissembling. Particularly true for this team.

Besides, which is the "simplest" explanation? the injury story, or the hypothesis that Mariner and Frings had a fight?

tfc2008
09-02-2012, 07:44 AM
He is dumb when he must come back , to the worst team in the world.

bigredone
09-02-2012, 07:59 AM
One word to describe this.....gotterdammerung!:(

narduch
09-02-2012, 08:14 AM
The worst part is the way the club handles the news.

There should have been a press conference for this. Or at the very least a press release of some sort.

Instead they try to bury it into the TV coverage of the match.

The way this club handles things never changes. We can accept bad news, just give it to us straight.

Edit: Just checked the TFC site and they don't have a story on this.

Auzzy
09-02-2012, 08:16 AM
This whole thing stinks to high heaven. Mariner said in his interview that Torsten was already in Germany. TFC website (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/09/injury-hit-tfc-cant-cope-kc) says he "was preparing to travel to Germany." So he apparently is still in Toronto?! What, your captain is suddenly so badly injured that he can't even travel with your depleted team to provide some moral support? A few days after being played for the full 90 minutes, even though subs were available & he obviously needed a break? A few days after Mariner throws only him under the bus, even though there were so many obvious problems?

Torsten is outspoken & direct when there's a problem. He wouldn't put up with bullshit.

Suds
09-02-2012, 08:31 AM
Before we get too ahead of ourselves we should wait for some more facts to come out before making accusations or taking a position.

I'm fully aware of the previous clusterfucks with this team and how they've treated certain past players and situations. And I understand this history leads us to think the worst. But I think we should still wait some amount of time before drawing any conclusions.

Cashcleaner
09-02-2012, 08:53 AM
Occam's Razor is not much use in pro sports, given the general culture of dissembling. Particularly true for this team.

Besides, which is the "simplest" explanation? the injury story, or the hypothesis that Mariner and Frings had a fight?

Actually, thinking back to all player departures in the past, you may be onto something...

Auzzy
09-02-2012, 11:21 AM
I'm not jumping to any conclusions, just saying it stinks to high heaven, given obvious facts like the guy being played 90 minutes only a few days ago, and the "player's coach" singling him out for criticism. I also don't expect we will ever get the full story on anything -- we will be left with only speculation in the end. The club always covers their asses with settlements, contract clauses, etc. The few guys that could speak freely after they left, because there was no ongoing relationship & they were in a new settled position (or because they just didn't care) -- it's never been pretty.

Richard
09-02-2012, 11:37 AM
The part where you said Toronto is the worst sporting organization in the world and the fact that Frings was "forced" to play with anybody.

Look, im mostly an optimistic person but this organization to me feels like it could be the worst in the world. I know the pirates, clippers and even knicks ownerships groups are even worse but to me this entire thing stinks.

I understand Fring is not forced to play, i understand he gets payed millions and should get on with it. At some point though if you were a brain surgeon and they decide to team you up with a bunch of intern grads to assist you in solving the complexity of the brain you would get pissed and feel your being wasted.

He is not getting any younger, he also does not decide who plays with him.

I hope you see where im coming from and maybe im too young and have not lived to experenced other organizations, i do know thoguh how badlt this team has been run in the last 6 years.

Code Red
09-02-2012, 01:16 PM
How often does this club reveal the truth behind its business deals or their parting of ways with players? Seemingly never. Everything with this club has always been shrouded in secrecy and this will never change unless we have a new and competent management in place. DeRosario and DeGuzman have already made it clear that there is lies and deceit within the organization, I'm certain that other players who have been let go would go on record themselves and call out this management but for the sake of their playing careers, chose to bite their tongue. When it comes to the truth, I will take the players side any day over these football overlords.

spe18
09-02-2012, 07:51 PM
Yup, for those of you that haven't seen it yet, here's the "press release" (I believe it's the one) from the team about Frings been out for the year:

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/09/01/paul-mariner-frings-september-1-2012

narduch
09-02-2012, 07:57 PM
Yup, for those of you that haven't seen it yet, here's the "press release" (I believe it's the one) from the team about Frings been out for the year:

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/09/01/paul-mariner-frings-september-1-2012

Its insane that they still don't have an article about this on their website. Its like they are trying to hide the story, thinking no one will notice Frings is gone.

TFC FO is amateur hour.

Frings having a season ending hip injury and heading back to Germany should be front page news! Its that big a story. But at TFC it gets buried.

__wowza
09-02-2012, 08:17 PM
spoke with frei at the ex today. he seemed to be in pretty good spirits signing autographs for people.

mentioned his recovery is going right on schedule and that he's itching to get back on the field. sounds like he's kinda cheesed off sitting around, but that's to be expected, said that they didn't want to rush him which he understood. he was getting impatient because physio is overprotective, again, which is to be expected "just let me take one or two runs (up the pitch) at least!"

didnt ask him about any of his thoughts on the team or anything like that, he's had nothing to do with it pretty much all season. didn't feel it'd be right asking him there when he was trying to put on a brave face for a franchise he can't be a part of till he heals.

Chevy
09-02-2012, 08:19 PM
Its insane that they still don't have an article about this on their website. Its like they are trying to hide the story, thinking no one will notice Frings is gone.

TFC FO is amateur hour.

Frings having a season ending hip injury and heading back to Germany should be front page news! Its that big a story. But at TFC it gets buried.


2013 Marketing Campaign - Put Frings in Union Station on crutches and see how many commuters stop to toss him a quarter. When he gets more love with crutches than a soccer ball? Progress!!!

Toronto
09-02-2012, 09:35 PM
2013 Marketing Campaign - Put Frings in Union Station on crutches and see how many commuters stop to toss him a quarter. When he gets more love with crutches than a soccer ball? Progress!!!

I think they should bring him out on crutches--- in an actual game. Maybe that's it's. Do they have a Paralympic type MLS division that this years disaster (I mean squad) could complete in? We could play against the Gimp-act de Montreal. Maybe we could even play an international friendly against the Madrid School of the Real Blind. Sell tickets exclusivity on Group-on. Hold on. Schools back. Sell tickets to 7000 school kids. Game at 11 AM on a Tuesday a la Lynx.

Note: We'd have to take the bell out the ball to win against anyone from Madrid, but hey-- a win at this point would justify the 15 percent increase in ticket prices in 2013 that's coming!

ensco
09-02-2012, 10:00 PM
Frings having a season ending hip injury and heading back to Germany should be front page news! Its that big a story. But at TFC it gets buried.

Therefore, the correct thing to assume is that this is not in fact what happened.

jazzy
09-02-2012, 11:01 PM
Therefore, the correct thing to assume is that this is not in fact what happened.


but mariner was quoted saying he was seeing his German doctor....with his usual candor and dismissive tone....there is no end to this circus,...why are they forcing us to give up on the team. Is there a reason to have the team fail in toronto?...

DoubleUp
09-03-2012, 12:00 AM
but mariner was quoted saying he was seeing his German doctor....with his usual candor and dismissive tone....there is no end to this circus,...why are they forcing us to give up on the team. Is there a reason to have the team fail in toronto?...

If we are goin off conspiracy! because Toronto has the potential to be the most successful and well supported team in Mls history, and it would shift the attention of american soccer north of the border and put a spotlight on Canadian soccer.

Making our national game stronger which would make the point of the whole league redundent from an american stand point.

Ask yourself what if the 3 Canadian teams continuely won the Mls cup, how would american soccer feel about that.?

Oranje
09-03-2012, 12:05 AM
If he is in fact gone for good, could someone make a "sorry Frings" sign or something along those lines? The fact that a player of his stature and calibre has stuck through this circus with the utmost professionalism. I actually am actually embarrassed that these shenanigans went on at a club I love..

burlington Red
09-03-2012, 12:45 AM
Some posters are saying he played better under Winter, what they are forgetting is his he mostly played centre back under Winter. Under Mariner he has played in centre mid, where his lack of mobility has been exposed. A class player who needs a runner to partner him, we don't have one. For the money he gets, probably best to say thank you and goodbye. Still the best player I ever seen play at BMO but I think he has had enough. If Dichio and Brennan get all star recognition, what does this man get, as he has given more football ability to this club than any other player, our first genuine world class player, just unfortunate it may end the way it did.
I personally would put him back to centre back with O'Dea, his reading of the game is superb, let him play a sweeper like role, I don't see that happening, and for Mariner to throw a world class player under the bus like he did with Torsten after the last gane is pure and utter disgraceful, if I were him I wouldn't come back.

nonc
09-03-2012, 06:31 AM
Some posters are saying he played better under Winter, what they are forgetting is his he mostly played centre back under Winter. Under Mariner he has played in centre mid, where his lack of mobility has been exposed. A class player who needs a runner to partner him, we don't have one. For the money he gets, probably best to say thank you and goodbye. Still the best player I ever seen play at BMO but I think he has had enough. If Dichio and Brennan get all star recognition, what does this man get, as he has given more football ability to this club than any other player, our first genuine world class player, just unfortunate it may end the way it did.
I personally would put him back to centre back with O'Dea, his reading of the game is superb, let him play a sweeper like role, I don't see that happening, and for Mariner to throw a world class player under the bus like he did with Torsten after the last gane is pure and utter disgraceful, if I were him I wouldn't come back.

That is exactly the issue. I don't think there's any doubt that when Frings is right he's an elite MLS player, age and pace is an afterthought if supported by a midfield that would actually run. Obviously we're not gonna see anything but 4-4-2 gutterball next year, but he could do great things in a 4-1-3-2 or 4-2-3-1 with the right personnel.

Oldtimer
09-03-2012, 07:51 AM
Some posters are saying he played better under Winter, what they are forgetting is his he mostly played centre back under Winter.

Paired with the right partners, he would do fantastic. Chance of getting that under Mariner? Nil. Be prepared for the no-DP budget TFC, to match the decline in SSH sales but keep the profits up.

ensco
09-03-2012, 09:11 AM
Be prepared for the no-DP budget TFC

Can't happen. The 2013 DP "budget" (not to be confused with the number used in the cap calculation) is already spent, it's $4-5 million (commitments to Frings and Koevermans totalling almost $4 million, and they have an option on whether to pick up Hassli next year).

If they buy out Frings, unless they get Frings to accept less than he's owed (which I believe they were trying endlessly and fruitlessly to do with JdG), the amount of money they will spend on DPs in 2013 can't/won't change.

I think that's what is probably going on - they're trying to make Torsten unwelcome/unhappy enough to accept a low number to go away, and/or accept a trade.

It may well be another JDG type trade that will happen - Torsten would really help a contender, TFC can get the DP slot back, and MLSE would still pay the vast majority of the amount owed on Frings' contract.

ag futbol
09-03-2012, 09:41 AM
Call me the "lowered expectations" type, but I'd much prefer if this team committed to one DP at the start while we're building our team and then brought in a second when the time is right. It would put the focus on improving regular roster players, which is a necessary building block before the team decides to splash the cash so to speak. In the process you might even find a player who is DP quality that is earning regular roster wages. Think three designed players is unnecessarily restrictive of your cap space as well.

As for Torsen, I am not opposed to him leaving the team, but TFC management needs to show a little class. We seem to think continuously treating our players like shit will somehow help us down the road...

james
09-03-2012, 01:02 PM
Frings was a great player. Hope he knows the fans enjoyed watching him play, and wish he could stay in Toronto, its just ashame that the people that run TFC have no idea what they are doing, biggest joke in the world. I wouldn't be suprised if we never see him play for TFC again.

TFC!BR
09-03-2012, 03:51 PM
Agree, Frings was great and we need to show the people running TFC that we are not going to take anymore of this. I've been a ssh since day one and say we don't show up to the next game sept 12th..we need to send a message!

SirBobSaget
09-03-2012, 03:58 PM
Agree, Frings was great and we need to show the people running TFC that we are not going to take anymore of this. I've been a ssh since day one and say we don't show up to the next game sept 12th..we need to send a message!

It would be a very powerful message if 112 + 113 would be left empty ( just sit elsewhere)

Pookie
09-03-2012, 04:29 PM
As ensco suggests, the DP money is already committed for next season... for the most part. Frings is on the books as is Koevermans (baring an insurance claim if he can't return). Remember, all salaries up to the league max are paid by the league. Everything above that is paid by the team.

Therefore, for a club looking to save money to protect profits, these are the options:

- let Hassli go and save the money above the cap that he is earning
- reduce operational budget spends. Things like Academy staff (de Klerk), scouting, and others associated with the team

Of course, they could look to maintain current profits by selling more tickets (volume) at a lower price but yeah, we'll see cuts to areas that support the team.

Canary10
09-04-2012, 08:37 AM
Does anyone have any real insight into what has happened with Frings? This is one of the more bizarre episodes of what has been a completely bizarre year for TFC, exceeding even TFC saying Plata is a TFC player while he is filmed in Central America accepting his new jersey from Quito. I don't even know what to say - finding out your captain, best and most expensive player might be out with a season ending injury as an aside on twitter? This has the wreak of an Earl Cochrane PR job. But what are they trying to hide?

Fort York Redcoat
09-04-2012, 08:45 AM
It would be a very powerful message if 112 + 113 would be left empty ( just sit elsewhere)

Or it could be taken as a sign of weakness. Either way, you won't get them to agree.

bones
09-04-2012, 12:25 PM
Or it could be taken as a sign of weakness. Either way, you won't get them to agree.
We could do a sit in game (like the first half of the All Star game).

Just some kind of strong message to ML$E.

Fort York Redcoat
09-04-2012, 12:58 PM
We could do a sit in game (like the first half of the All Star game).

Just some kind of strong message to ML$E.

I didn't see the All-star game. Did EVERYONE sit?

ag futbol
09-04-2012, 02:32 PM
We could do a sit in game (like the first half of the All Star game).

Just some kind of strong message to ML$E.
The way things are going, that might not do anything but please the casual fans invading the section :facepalm:

TorontoGooner
09-04-2012, 03:18 PM
Miserable much? These posts are embarrassing.

I actually think Richard has a point

jazzy
09-05-2012, 07:24 PM
I actually think Richard has a point

uh..... so is the team..........and thats not what we deserve

Dub Narcotic
09-05-2012, 09:48 PM
The team has to get out of Frings' contract next year, he is just too far gone physically to really contribute at a DP level, and that cap space is desperately needed to sign players next year. I would not be surprised if this is a negotiating ploy to agree on a buyout number, but, the buyout has to happen. A common trick in capped leagues is to buy a contract out and then re-sign the player at a much lower number so that their contribution to the cap is just the lower number but they still get paid all or close to all of what they are owed. Usually it's another team that signs the player, so I don't know that the league would agree to this type of move, but Frings cannot be taking up a DP spot next year. I would go so far as to say that if Hassli and Frings come back as DP's next year, the season is lost before it starts. This team needs to sign many good MLS-starter types at the $100-$200k level and they need the space to do that.

torfchamilton
09-05-2012, 11:30 PM
How many times over is TFC going to do this. Is there nobody in this footballing world to change our situation?

Yohan
09-06-2012, 09:40 AM
Seems Riquelme may be available on free transfer soon. 34, but hes the playmaker tfc really needs... and room available after frings retires

trane
09-06-2012, 10:03 AM
I hope for his sake that he returns to Germany for good, this club will be no better next year, and he is already being treaded like a scapegoat by some, after all he has done.

ryan
09-06-2012, 10:03 AM
How many times over is TFC going to do this. Is there nobody in this footballing world to change our situation?

How many times in Tom Assholme's cyclical world?

trane
09-06-2012, 10:05 AM
Seems Riquelme may be available on free transfer soon. 34, but hes the playmaker tfc really needs... and room available after frings retires

Lets find a proper manager first, to lead us for a couple of years, no one player will be the answer to our problems.

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 10:28 AM
Be prepared for the no-DP budget TFC, to match the decline in SSH sales but keep the profits up.

You know there are a whole lot of people who understand MLS salary structures that would like a non-DP or one DP TFC. That way we don't have a thin as fuck roster with which to try to utilize to play any type of system.

And if they really cared about profits they'd just give in to the whims of the 'casual' TFC Supporters/Fans and go buy 2 or 3 more 'big name' DPs just to sell seats.

I hope we have 1 DP next season (a goal scorer, Koevermans if healthy, or a true play making AM) and then fill our roster with $120-$200K reliable MLSers with the cap savings.

Everyone can complain about Mariner's simplistic and straight forward system and how it's used in youth leagues and such but as we've all seen our talent level is so low, our players can't even manage it. Much less a more attractive style that most people complain about. You can bitch about scouting or whatever but that's what happens when too much salary cap cash gets tied up on 3 DPs (two of which had a negligible impact) and the team doesn't have the allocation money* to fill out the roster with solid core players.

* Only NY and LA have enough allocation to be able to sign just about anyone, anytime.

ryan
09-06-2012, 10:56 AM
Lets find a proper manager first, to lead us for a couple of years, no one player will be the answer to our problems.

Certainly not a 34 year old who's been quoted as saying he's not got it anymore. Last thing we need here is Riquelme IMO.


You know there are a whole lot of people who understand MLS salary structures that would like a non-DP or one DP TFC. That way we don't have a thin as fuck roster with which to try to utilize to play any type of system.

And if they really cared about profits they'd just give in to the whims of the 'casual' TFC Supporters/Fans and go buy 2 or 3 more 'big name' DPs just to sell seats.

Which is why we traded for Hassli. He's a popular character.


I hope we have 1 DP next season (a goal scorer, Koevermans if healthy, or a true play making AM) and then fill our roster with $120-$200K reliable MLSers with the cap savings.

Everyone can complain about Mariner's simplistic and straight forward system and how it's used in youth leagues and such but as we've all seen our talent level is so low, our players can't even manage it. Much less a more attractive style that most people complain about. You can bitch about scouting or whatever but that's what happens when too much salary cap cash gets tied up on 3 DPs (two of which had a negligible impact) and the team doesn't have the allocation money* to fill out the roster with solid core players.

* Only NY and LA have enough allocation to be able to sign just about anyone, anytime.

So you're saying our group of pros who've played this game their whole lives, which include a handful of international caliber players....aren't talented enough to play route one? Not buying this.

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 11:24 AM
So you're saying our group of pros who've played this game their whole lives, which include a handful of international caliber players....aren't talented enough to play route one? Not buying this.
You actually watch any of our matches this season?

If so, you tell me why no one, DPs included, haven't been able to pass worth a shit since match #1 away in Seattle. Last time I checked all systems and styles of Football involved one player passing it to another teammate and so on. Under both regimes this season we've failed to manage to do that effectively. Explain why.

v00d00daddy
09-06-2012, 11:46 AM
Everyone can complain about Mariner's simplistic and straight forward system and how it's used in youth leagues and such but as we've all seen our talent level is so low, our players can't even manage it. Much less a more attractive style that most people complain about. You can bitch about scouting or whatever but that's what happens when too much salary cap cash gets tied up on 3 DPs (two of which had a negligible impact) and the team doesn't have the allocation money* to fill out the roster with solid core .

Mariners style isnt a failure because the talent level is too low on this team. It's a failure because it's a terrible way to play and give you very little chance to win. It gives your opponent plenty of time to figure out how to break you down and it's very predictable.

No team...no matter the talent level, should be playing our style.

Pookie
09-06-2012, 12:01 PM
You actually watch any of our matches this season?

If so, you tell me why no one, DPs included, haven't been able to pass worth a shit since match #1 away in Seattle. Last time I checked all systems and styles of Football involved one player passing it to another teammate and so on. Under both regimes this season we've failed to manage to do that effectively. Explain why.

I think the explanation is really simple and Tom Anselmi said it the other day, infrastructure. Now, unlike Tom, I think it is HIS fault we don't have it but the truth is we don't.

Under Winter, our roster was one of the youngest in the league. Mainly because we had a 1/3 of it composed of TFC-A grads. The Academy has only been around since 2011 yet, it was deep enough to take players from the OSA and give them full time professional jobs? Players developed by club rep teams with one year of seasoning from Jim Brennan? We put more Canadian players into our starting 11 than Vancouver and Montreal had on their entire 30 man roster. C'mon.

This is a natural function of not being able to identify players elsewhere.

Further, we traded players (and sometimes the picks themselves) that we had acquired via the Superdraft. We have had the opportunity to select 9 1st round picks since 2007. Only 3, Stefan Frei, Aron Maund and Luis Silva remain with the team. Maund and Silva are into their rookie seasons.

There is no continuity. Imagine if every year the team you played for brought in 20 news players? Do you think you'd be cohesive in your passing and knowing when a player was going to make a run? In our 6 seasons, TFC has put 118 different players on that 30 man roster.

Passing accuracy was better under Winter (2012) vs Mariner (2012).

Winter's team attempted an average of 374.1 passes per game. Mariner's side attempts 282.4

Winter's side was also more accurate, averaging 72% completion rate vs Mariner's 68.1%

Each team has an inherent flaw, not building a team according to the best available players under MLS Roster Rules (Best of Canada, US and International) and they can't build it because they either don't scout or don't value the mechanisms to acquire players (ie. Superdraft). That said, Winter's system did align itself with more (and more accurate) ball movement. Under Mariner, we have regressed playing a supposedly simpler system.

ryan
09-06-2012, 12:02 PM
You actually watch any of our matches this season?

If so, you tell me why no one, DPs included, haven't been able to pass worth a shit since match #1 away in Seattle. Last time I checked all systems and styles of Football involved one player passing it to another teammate and so on. Under both regimes this season we've failed to manage to do that effectively. Explain why.

I'll explain that when you explain why players like Frings, De Guzman and Koevermans "can't make a simple pass to a teammate" but have their entire career, at both club and international levels, minus @ TFC. Are we suggesting Frings doesn't know how to pass anymore because he's wearing a red shirt?



Our team isn't a team. Period. This is an organizational problem. This isn't about a system, this is about the club. There's no trust, there's bad blood, there's anger and no cohesion. There's contract disputes and constant change. Players aren't happy to be here and surely some don't want to be here.

This is not a team. This is why we can't pass a ball.

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 12:34 PM
Mariners style isnt a failure because the talent level is too low on this team. It's a failure because it's a terrible way to play and give you very little chance to win. It gives your opponent plenty of time to figure out how to break you down and it's very predictable.

No team...no matter the talent level, should be playing our style.

It is a failure when your talent level doesn't even allow you to do the simplest tasks in a system though. And we managed to be even less effective at those rudimentary tasks during the 'attractive' Football reign/debacle previous.

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 12:41 PM
I'll explain that when you explain why players like Frings, De Guzman and Koevermans "can't make a simple pass to a teammate" but have their entire career, at both club and international levels, minus @ TFC. Are we suggesting Frings doesn't know how to pass anymore because he's wearing a red shirt?
No answer for it but it was fairly plain to see. We were starting to resemble a decent squad late last season then we had a break and it all fell to shit. No idea why but our passing has been shit all season. Not just since June. Also saying the passing under Winter of 72% compared to our current 68% is slightly misleading as a bulk of the passing in the previous system was negative (GK to RB to GK to CB to RB to LB to GK) and we did that often. Also, I wasn't comparing the passing from our two regimes but rather to what our opponents have been managing, for the entire season.

v00d00daddy
09-06-2012, 12:44 PM
It is a failure when your talent level doesn't even allow you to do the simplest tasks in a system though. And we managed to be even less effective at those rudimentary tasks during the 'attractive' Football reign/debacle previous.

A) we play the current system just fine. We're very good at clearing the ball up for 50/50 chances and relying on 30-40% possession. We lose cause its a stupid mentality that is incapable of yielding sustained results. Once the opponent figures you out it's over.

And

B) I'm not sure which specific "rudimentary" tasks you're talking about but if you mean stuff like passing and movement off the ball I think most would agree that we were much better under the previous regime.

ryan
09-06-2012, 12:45 PM
No answer for it but it was fairly plain to see. We were starting to resemble a decent squad late last season then we had a break and it all fell to shit. No idea why but our passing has been shit all season. Not just since June. Also saying the passing under Winter of 72% compared to our current 68% is slightly misleading as a bulk of the passing in the previous system was negative (GK to RB to GK to CB to RB to LB to GK) and we did that often. Also, I wasn't comparing the passing from our two regimes but rather to what our opponents have been managing, for the entire season.

I think you quoted the wrong guy, Pookie was on about the stats n such.

I'm saying we have an organization problem, leading to a myriad of issues and preventing our players from playing with each other but they otherwise have the skill to pass a ball. :)

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 01:43 PM
I think you quoted the wrong guy, Pookie was on about the stats n such.

I'm saying we have an organization problem, leading to a myriad of issues and preventing our players from playing with each other but they otherwise have the skill to pass a ball. :)
Yeah I knew it was the wrong quote but I didn't want to keep making posts. We do have organizational problems though. For sure. Perhaps they can be partially addressed with a decent hiring in place of Anselmi.

I am not the fire Mariner and start over type. That just falls into the whole bunch of stupid we've done for the past 6 years. Mariner has said over and over that he wants to maintain possession but he made the current system as easy as possible to allow what he has at his disposal to try to function, which they still can't execute effectively. He was burdened by inheriting the mess of poor talent that Winter had acquired. In Winter's defense I will say that he was crippled by the costs of 3 DPs and had to settle for what you could get with the cap space that was available. Regardless, most of those players were Winter's acquisitions and you can't blame Mariner for that. Hopefully going forward we trim a few DPs and even out the roster.

But if everyone was honest and not biased, which is impossible to ask on here, you would have to say that the roster we have and had all season is vastly inferior to nearly any MLS squad position to position minus maybe Portland and New England. So no matter what system you play, you can't expect amazing things to come from a roster like ours.

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 01:53 PM
Might I add in the poor judgment of players thing with Winter, that he chose to jettison the reigning MLS MVP, a player I know Mariner would have loved, for what amounted to dick all. All because He Who Shall Not be Named couldn't or wouldn't abide by the strict rules that the previous system forced among it's players (and also because he wanted too much $$$ of course). Now, wouldn't that guy look good in behind Koevermans/Silva/Hassli?

But back on topic; too bad for Torsten. I would like to know how long he played through this because it would explain why he looked so bad as the season wore on. Hopefully he gets through it all alright even if he doesn't come back here or play Football professionally again.

Canary10
09-06-2012, 01:57 PM
Yeah I knew it was the wrong quote but I didn't want to keep making posts. We do have organizational problems though. For sure. Perhaps they can be partially addressed with a decent hiring in place of Anselmi.

I am not the fire Mariner and start over type. That just falls into the whole bunch of stupid we've done for the past 6 years. Mariner has said over and over that he wants to maintain possession but he made the current system as easy as possible to allow what he has at his disposal to try to function, which they still can't execute effectively. He was burdened by inheriting the mess of poor talent that Winter had acquired. In Winter's defense I will say that he was crippled by the costs of 3 DPs and had to settle for what you could get with the cap space that was available. Regardless, most of those players were Winter's acquisitions and you can't blame Mariner for that. Hopefully going forward we trim a few DPs and even out the roster.

But if everyone was honest and not biased, which is impossible to ask on here, you would have to say that the roster we have and had all season is vastly inferior to nearly any MLS squad position to position minus maybe Portland and New England. So no matter what system you play, you can't expect amazing things to come from a roster like ours.

I think the roster we had at the start of the season was better than now, and capable of being mid-table in MLS. I think most would agree with that - I didn't see any Toronto FC supporters saying at the start of the season that we would be a last place team. Most expected us to make the playoffs.

We still had the obvious CB gap, and I still think we missed not having a true number 10 or a back up striker. But overall a team capable of mid-table.

Auzzy
09-06-2012, 01:58 PM
Might I add in the poor judgment of players thing with Winter, that he chose to jettison the reigning MLS MVP, a player I know Mariner would have loved, for what amounted to dick all. All because He Who Shall Not be Named couldn't or wouldn't abide by the strict rules that the previous system forced among it's players (and also because he wanted too much $$$ of course). Now, wouldn't that guy look good in behind Koevermans/Silva/Hassli?

But back on topic; too bad for Torsten. I would like to know how long he played through this because it would explain why he looked so bad as the season wore on. Hopefully he gets through it all alright even if he doesn't come back here or play Football professionally again.

^ OK that's a straight-up bunch of bull. Do you mean Dero? Do you really want to restart a DeRo debate? There were lots more problems between Dero & the club than supposed Winter rules, stretching back way before Winter or Mariner arrived here. In fact Winter said he wanted to keep Dero. I really don't know where you expect this conversation to go, do you expect anything reasonable or do you just want to cause a shitstorm?

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 02:07 PM
^ OK that's a straight-up bunch of bull. Do you mean Dero? Do you really want to restart a DeRo debate? There were lots more problems between Dero & the club than supposed Winter rules, stretching back way before Winter or Mariner arrived here. In fact Winter said he wanted to keep Dero. I really don't know where you expect this conversation to go, do you expect anything reasonable or do you just want to cause a shitstorm?
He didn't fit the system and wanted too much cash. Go back and read the crap. Don't want to revisit that but it was what it was. At the time a few people on here were calling for Winter's and Cochrane's heads for it. But it's over so whatever.

For the record I agreed that he should go. I didn't think he was worth a DP long term commitment and a rigid system like Winter's isn't for him. He is better to be allowed to free float and move around. Whenever managers have tried to force things on him (NY & Houston) he never performed as well as he is capable and he usually isn't happy. Looking back, knowing what I know now, I say we dropped the ball on that deal and I was wrong about him.

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 02:10 PM
I think the roster we had at the start of the season was better than now, and capable of being mid-table in MLS. I think most would agree with that - I didn't see any Toronto FC supporters saying at the start of the season that we would be a last place team. Most expected us to make the playoffs.

We still had the obvious CB gap, and I still think we missed not having a true number 10 or a back up striker. But overall a team capable of mid-table.
Obviously a 1-9 start proved otherwise though. The roster was better then for sure but still not good or deep enough. I really think the few results post Koevermans/Frings last season plus the good CCL run made us all think we were better than we really were. I saved the season preview from the Sun at my work and it was all about us fighting for a top 3 spot in the conference with only NY & KC better. Looking back on that is just crazy and mind boggling. Hard to believe it all went like this. I wonder what kind of odds you'd have got from a bookie to pick TFC finishing last overall back in March?

I agree with you 100% about the #10 and back up striker. We still need both of those in fact. I say the #10 is more important than the CB at this point too. We may possibly be able to draft a decent CB 1st overall. Depending on who's available in the Draft of course. I wouldn't want a possible #10 to be a draft selection though. I hope we can get someone who is at least somewhat established.

Pookie
09-06-2012, 02:16 PM
I am not the fire Mariner and start over type. That just falls into the whole bunch of stupid we've done for the past 6 years. Mariner has said over and over that he wants to maintain possession but he made the current system as easy as possible to allow what he has at his disposal to try to function, which they still can't execute effectively. He was burdened by inheriting the mess of poor talent that Winter had acquired. .

The mess of poor talent? That's a curious quote. I do agree that the roster is poor though I will continue to point to the 1/3 of it that comes from the easiest means possible... local players.... at the expense of fishing in other talent pools (USA via the Superdraft and scouting).... as the main contributing reason to the lack of depth.

Focusing on the other 2/3rds, are you actually suggesting that Mariner's decision to rid the team of Soolsma, JDG and Plata have made the club stronger?

brad
09-06-2012, 02:27 PM
No answer for it but it was fairly plain to see. We were starting to resemble a decent squad late last season then we had a break and it all fell to shit. No idea why but our passing has been shit all season. Not just since June. Also saying the passing under Winter of 72% compared to our current 68% is slightly misleading as a bulk of the passing in the previous system was negative (GK to RB to GK to CB to RB to LB to GK) and we did that often. Also, I wasn't comparing the passing from our two regimes but rather to what our opponents have been managing, for the entire season.

Nobody moves off the ball. The old coaching adage is that it takes two players to make a pass. One to pass the ball, and one to move into space to get open for the pass. Watch our off the ball movement, when it is actually there (which is rare), it is bad.

Players not in possession need to be moving to get open for a pass, and also need to be moving to open up space for others. None of this happens at TFC.

ensco
09-06-2012, 02:30 PM
At the risk of starting a firefight ... it does not necessarily follow that getting rid of Soolsma, Plata and JDG "has to make us better" or else Mariner is an idiot. Given the roster and cap restrictions, there can be a lag. Furthermore, if you are a bad team to start with, and you know these guys won't be here in the long run,you can argue that this is in fact smart.

I am agnostic so far on Mariner. I see many of the things others do, we clearly still suck, but Winter's player handling and tactical issues were worse in my opinion. I am witholding judgment on the Frings mess until I know more.

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 02:32 PM
Nobody moves off the ball. The old coaching adage is that it takes two players to make a pass. One to pass the ball, and one to move into space to get open for the pass. Watch our off the ball movement, when it is actually there (which is rare), it is bad.

Players not in possession need to be moving to get open for a pass, and also need to be moving to open up space for others. None of this happens at TFC.

THIS!

I have been saying this since week 3. It's been happening all year except for those first couple of matches after Mariner took over. Now, the results are the same for two different coaching staffs so I am lead to blame the players for this. Both staffs couldn't be responsible for this.

v00d00daddy
09-06-2012, 02:39 PM
He was burdened by inheriting the mess of poor talent that Winter had acquired. In Winter's defense I will say that he was crippled by the costs of 3 DPs and had to settle for what you could get with the cap space that was available. Regardless, most of those players were Winter's acquisitions and you can't blame Mariner for that. Hopefully going forward we trim a few DPs and even out the roster.

For the record....one of those DP's is probably the reason why Mariner isn't already fired. If not for Winter bringing in Koevermans we may be looking at an even worse record than 1-9. LOL

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 02:40 PM
At the risk of starting a firefight ... it does not necessarily follow that getting rid of Soolsma, Plata and JDG "has to make us better" or else Mariner is an idiot. Given the roster and cap restrictions, there can be a lag. Furthermore, if you are a bad team to start with, and you know these guys won't be here in the long run,you can argue that this is in fact smart.

I am agnostic so far on Mariner. I see many of the things others do, we clearly still suck, but Winter's player handling and tactical issues were worse in my opinion. I am witholding judgment on the Frings mess until I know more.

This is true and I want to see if Mariner can assemble a quality MLS side. He has the experience and know how to do it. It's just a matter of actually doing it and being able to acquire the right players. Like I said many times, Winter had 3 transfer windows to get the team how he wanted including one record setting one. Mariner has had one so far. Give him one more window, see if Frings can/will return, see if Koevermans is healthy, grab a good pick in the draft, and try to sign a few MLS proven players and see what next season brings us. Keep him on a short leash and if the results and play are no better than what we have now then can him and move on.

And not a 10 match short leash either. Shorter. No point in wasting another season if he can't get the job done.

Wull
09-06-2012, 02:44 PM
F.Hall
Ecks-----Emory-----O'Dea-----J.Hall

Lambe-----Dunfield-----Maund/Silva-----Wiedeman

Hassli-----Amerikwa


someone tell me how this isn't Mariner's team again?!

v00d00daddy
09-06-2012, 02:58 PM
This is true and I want to see if Mariner can assemble a quality MLS side. He has the experience and know how to do it. It's just a matter of actually doing it and being able to acquire the right players. Like I said many times, Winter AND MARINER had 3 transfer windows to get the team how he wanted including one record setting one. Mariner has had one so far. Give him one more window, see if Frings can/will return, see if Koevermans is healthy, grab a good pick in the draft, and try to sign a few MLS proven players and see what next season brings us. Keep him on a short leash and if the results and play are no better than what we have now then can him and move on.

And not a 10 match short leash either. Shorter. No point in wasting another season if he can't get the job done.

fixed....unless Mariner was a very well paid spectator for the first 18 months of his time at TFC

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 03:01 PM
fixed....unless Mariner was a very well paid spectator for the first 18 months of his time at TFC

I get the impression he was or else why are there all these posts about Mariner getting rid of all Winter's technical players and filling the team with HIS scrubs if in fact the players brought in on Winter's watch were Mariner's choices.

Canary10
09-06-2012, 03:12 PM
I get the impression he was or else why are there all these posts about Mariner getting rid of all Winter's technical players and filling the team with HIS scrubs if in fact the players brought in on Winter's watch were Mariner's choices.

He obviously had a significant hand in it. You can name with certainty probably a half dozen players that are his. But I'm sure there was give and take. I highly doubt he would have brought in Aceval for example, since he doesn't need a centre back whose skills are on the ball in his system.

To me the bottom line with him, is his tactics won't change. He coached the same way at Plymouth Argyle that he does now. What you see is what you get. If you think that will win championships, well, you should be happy. If you don't, or if you hold out hope he might bring in some more tactical innovation at some point, I think you'll be disappointed.

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 03:17 PM
He obviously had a significant hand in it. You can name with certainty probably a half dozen players that are his. But I'm sure there was give and take. I highly doubt he would have brought in Aceval for example, since he doesn't need a centre back whose skills are on the ball in his system.

To me the bottom line with him, is his tactics won't change. He coached the same way at Plymouth Argyle that he does now. What you see is what you get. If you think that will win championships, well, you should be happy. If you don't, or if you hold out hope he might bring in some more tactical innovation at some point, I think you'll be disappointed.

I'm not delusional so I know nothing innovative tactically is forthcoming. What I would expect however is a roster with the ability to play MLS styled Football and be able to execute that properly and effectively.

Auzzy
09-06-2012, 03:19 PM
I think Mariner clarified today what he was & wasn't in charge of, in his "exclusive" interview with Kurtis Larson: http://www.torontosun.com/2012/09/05/frings-to-miss-remainder-of-mls-season (I think now we know what Larson's fealty towards Mariner has got him -- an "exclusive" interview.)

Mariner said:


"As the director of player development you can only do so much," he said. "I had no say on team selection, no say on formations and no say on anything to do with the field."

To me that means he was (at least partially) in charge of finding players, as per his job description. So yes, we can most likely thank Mariner (at least partially) for Andy Iro, Giovanni Caicedo, and Miguel Aceval -- i.e., our long standing incredible weakness at CB (which of course also stretches back long before Winter/Mariner). Perhaps also Eddy Viator, Danleigh Borman, Kyle Davies, Dasan Robinson, and Léandre Griffit (focussing mostly just on the failed defensive signings with little continental European background before coming to TFC -- the exception being Griffit as a winger, but also coming from Columbus to TFC).

Yes Winter was bad, never should have been hired, especially as a rookie for a team that had already lived through 5+ years of crap and was promised the "best FO in MLS." But in no way should Mariner get a complete pass for all that's transpired since January 2011. (And yes O'Dea is finally a decent signing -- not yet sure if stellar, and not yet sure of his cost/value compared to other good MLS CB's, let's see what his salary is.)

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 03:28 PM
Yes Winter was bad, never should have been hired, especially as a rookie for a team that had already lived through 5+ years of crap and was promised the "best FO in MLS." But in no way should Mariner get a complete pass for all that's transpired since January 2011. (And yes O'Dea is finally a decent signing -- not yet sure if stellar, and not yet sure of his cost/value compared to other good MLS CB's, let's see what his salary is.)
No free pass for sure but for me, he gets this winter window and all the time leading up and during it, without appeasing another manager, to show what he's got.

And I would figure O'Dea wouldn't be too expensive and also, and I have heard this a few times but am dubious, that Ecks $390K salary this season included the transfer fee and that his base salary will be lower next season. Only heard from supporters, not from the club or Ives or anyone. I wonder if it's correct. I hope it is.

Canary10
09-06-2012, 03:31 PM
I'm not delusional so I know nothing innovative tactically is forthcoming. What I would expect however is a roster with the ability to play MLS styled Football and be able to execute that properly and effectively.

What you mean by MLS styled football is key then. If you think a text book 4-4-2 will win, then yeah, give him time.

I'm not so certain that works anymore In MLS on a regular basis.

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 03:37 PM
What you mean by MLS styled football is key then. If you think a text book 4-4-2 will win, then yeah, give him time.

I'm not so certain that works anymore In MLS on a regular basis.
Works in Mexico. Santos Laguna was playing a text book 4-4-2 and it seemed fine to me.

Canary10
09-06-2012, 03:54 PM
Works in Mexico. Santos Laguna was playing a text book 4-4-2 and it seemed fine to me.

I missed that game so I don't know what they played that night. (Was Carlos Qunitero not on the pitch? He's an out and out winger. They must have played one striker at least some point in the match). I've definitely seen them line up in a one striker formation, so they're not static with 4-4-2. It's likely the switch.

When I say text book, TFC do the thing of lining the midfield with the left mid playing in slightly with the left back overlapping to provide crosses, the right mid playing higher up, and the right back further back to cover. (Kind of a lopsidded kite). They try to get the ball up to the two strikers, who try to lay it off to the overlapping left full back who runs it to the bi-line and crosses. On defense they are two banks of four. To me that's text book. There are other variations on 4-4-2 that are bit more innovative. They do that same game in and game out except possibly for a couple of Mariner's first games (Houston and Montreal I believe). They looked to be in more a 4-3-1-2 in those games but I've not seen it since.

Santos doesn't play that way tactically, even when they line up 4-4-2.

Ultra & Proud
09-06-2012, 04:01 PM
I missed that game so I don't know what they played that night. (Was Carlos Qunitero not on the pitch? He's an out and out winger. They must have played one striker at least some point in the match). I've definitely seen them line up in a one striker formation, so they're not static with 4-4-2. It's likely the switch.

When I say text book, TFC do the thing of lining the midfield with the left mid playing in slightly with the left back overlapping to provide crosses, the right mid playing higher up, and the right back further back to cover. (Kind of a lopsidded kite). They try to get the ball up to the two strikers, who try to lay it off to the overlapping left full back who runs it to the bi-line and crosses. On defense they are two banks of four. To me that's text book. There are other variations on 4-4-2 that are bit more innovative. They do that same game in and game out except possibly for a couple of Mariner's first games (Houston and Montreal I believe). They looked to be in more a 4-3-1-2 in those games but I've not seen it since.

Santos doesn't play that way tactically, even when they line up 4-4-2.

I think the formation switched to the two banks of four due to the injuries and player departures/additions. I think in this regard, with the right mix of players, he could be flexible like he was in the earlier Montreal & Houston matches but for now, with what we have we're lucky we can field a team that isn't getting pancaked each time out.

Blizzard
09-15-2012, 10:20 PM
On September 10, Torsten posted the following on his Facebook page:

Hi, the operation has well done – everything is fine. Now another 2 weeks on crutches and then it immediately goes in the rehab.
Torsten