Worst Post-Mo Coach of TFC?

[Oldtimer]

No question that Mo was the worst coach of TFC.
Record scoreless streak, 20% win rate, and a terrible style of play.

Next two him, who has been the worst coach of TFC?

[TFC07]

I would say Paul Mariner. He is pretty much another Mo for me except he won more games. They both were liars who didn't have a vision and adopt a backward soccer. Both of them failed to bring in a quality defender while giving us a bad rep in the league for treating players badly.

[brad]

Some interesting data from this article, pre-Mariner though - http://www.wakingthered.com/2012/6/10/3076591/ranking-toronto-fcs-coaches



If you rank the coaches by just winning percentage they go as follows:
Chris Cummins - 38.71
Preki - 34.38
John Carver - 30.56
Nick Dasovic - 30.00
Aron Winter - 28.13
Mo Johnston - 20.00

By % of matches in which they collected point you get a slightly different look:
Preki - 66
Chris Cummins - 65
Aron Winter - 61
Nick Dasovic - 60
John Carver - 58
Mo Johnston - 43

Most important of all though is the points per game in charge:
Chris Cummins - 1.42
Preki - 1.34
Nick Dasovic - 1.20
John Carver - 1.19
Aron Winter - 1.17
Mo Johnston - 0.83




Prekiball was painful to watch - but it was effective.

The numbers suprise me a bit with Cummins coming out on top across the board. And that was with MoJo meddling with the team selection.

[__wowza]

i maintain that one of the biggest mistakes preki ever made was splitting our attention between the CCL and the league. winter had it right, we were out of the league so lets play for the CCL, preki thought he could do both and we ended up dropping a game to a team that had an announced attendance of under 500!!

[drexel10]

Some interesting data from this article, pre-Mariner though - http://www.wakingthered.com/2012/6/10/3076591/ranking-toronto-fcs-coaches



Prekiball was painful to watch - but it was effective.

The numbers suprise me a bit with Cummins coming out on top across the board. And that was with MoJo meddling with the team selection.

Cummins worked with the most talent we have ever had on this team.

[T-boy]

I was 50/50 between Preki and Winter. I picked Winter as he broke the all time losing record in the MLS. That's pretty bad!

But apparently, for the rest of you, results have nothing to do with this poll! I feel that even if Mariner won every game from now on, he would still be hated just because he doesn't play Winter's "beautiful aesthetically pleasing passing football".

[Greatest Ripoff]

I was 50/50 between Preki and Winter. I picked Winter as he broke the all time losing record in the MLS. That's pretty bad!

But apparently, for the rest of you, results have nothing to do with this poll! I feel that even if Mariner won every game from now on, he would still be hated just because he doesn't play Winter's "beautiful aesthetically pleasing passing football".


Winter also wont two Voyageur's Cups and took the team to the semi final of the Champions League. Better than any other coach could do.

[Ageroo]

Winter also wont two Voyageur's Cups and took the team to the semi final of the Champions League. Better than any other coach could do.

This is why I didn't vote for Winter....I agree he had a horrible record, but in games that actually meant something he coached this team well.....too bad that league games didn't mean that much to him :)

[T-boy]

Winter also wont two Voyageur's Cups and took the team to the semi final of the Champions League. Better than any other coach could do.

It depends how much importance you place on cups really. I don't place much importance at all. You think a team like Birmingham would have prefered to go through to the Europa Cup final yet be relegated to the championship?

It's more of a north american mentality to put importance on the cups. TFC were pathetic in the league under Winter, and that's where we will be judged in the end of the day. Just like that Birmingham team.

[Oldtimer]

But apparently, for the rest of you, results have nothing to do with this poll! I feel that even if Mariner won every game from now on, he would still be hated just because he doesn't play Winter's "beautiful aesthetically pleasing passing football".

Mariner's results are edging down to Winter's record over 2 seasons, and will soon be worse, so yes results do matter.

... and I wouldn't worry about the possibility of Mariner winning every game from here on in. :lol:

[T-boy]

Mariner's results are edging down to Winter's and will soon be worse, so yes results do matter.

... and I wouldn't worry about the possibility of Mariner winning every game from here on in. :lol:

It really is a case on this board that if you don't agree with everybody else, you are laughed at, made fun of, and eventually insulted. I'm out of here right now. I'm not going to take being bullied just because I don't agree with the masses.

[Oldtimer]

It really is a case on this board that if you don't agree with everybody else, you are laughed at, made fun of, and eventually insulted. I'm out of here right now. I'm not going to take being bullied just because I don't agree with the masses.

If you consider being confronted with facts bullying, I'm sorry I can't do anything for you. I just can't lie and pretend that everything is a-ok...

and that's sad for me because I'm generally an optimistic guy. Anyone who's followed my postings over the years would agree.

[[NBF]]

I would say Paul Mariner. He is pretty much another Mo for me except he won more games. They both were liars who didn't have a vision and adopt a backward soccer. Both of them failed to bring in a quality defender while giving us a bad rep in the league for treating players badly.

Mo Johnston's first three years were not that bad considering we were getting more points every year and our goal difference every year was better than the first year when TFC had a minus 24 goal difference.



Coach

Year

Points

GP

Wins

Losses

Ties

GF

GA

G.D.

Overall

MLS Draft



Johnston
2007
25
30
6
17
7
25
49
-24
13/13
M.Edu, A.Boyens


Carver
2008
35
30
9
13
8
34
43
-9
12/14
J.James, P.Phelan


Carver/Cummins
2009
39
30
10
11
9
37
46
-9
12/15
S.Cronin, S.Frei, O.B.White


Preki/Dasovic
2010
35
30
9
13
8
33
41
-8
11/16
No 1st Rounder


Winter
2011
33
34
6
13
15
36
59
-23
16/18
No 1st Rounder


Winter/Mariner
2012
21
26
5
15
6
29
46
-17
19/19
L.Silva, A. Maund






Horrible Planning

The last three years have been a complete rebuilding for nothing. The only productive recruiter for talent, the MLS Draft, has been completely ignored and we've suffered for it. IMO, TFC has decided to become something different than the rest of MLS and failed. Where the rest of the MLS teams have utilized the MLS Draft to develop their football teams TFC has run away from it in order to focus on international recruitment and youth development.

So I'm going to say the obvious. TFC failed to recruit players (that would play for a salary within the cap). The scouting system failed.

So who is the worst head coach?

Aron Winter is the worst head coach we've ever had because he was brought in with no experience in coaching or recruiting to rebuild a squad that was decimated by the previous head coach and technical director. He was given the keys to everything but the Brazil scouting report. So he had no support from the start. He was hired to fix something that he had no experience in fixing, but his key attribute was his name sake which if he had used to find 11 players to play together he would have been able save his job. Then again he was not a scout.

Chris Cummins on the other hand was the best head coach we've ever had with no experience in coaching or recruiting, but the team was already put in place to do well in MLS and it had a proven goal scorer.

So who is the worst example of a head coach?

Paul Mariner, IDK whats worse or depressing than watching a guy in shorts jumping around the sidelines like he just scored a goal with a shout. It says he doesnt have the right players in place to grasp the match tactics. It might also indicate that he has weak tactical plans that are immidiately dismissed by the players during the game or he has weak communication skills when it comes to explaining what he wants from the players. You could also say that he doesnt have the full cooperation of all the players so he's playing favorites and screaming at others during the game in order to shame them into playing for him. Either way he is not the worse head coach, but the saddest example of a head coach IMO.

[Greatest Ripoff]

It depends how much importance you place on cups really. I don't place much importance at all. You think a team like Birmingham would have prefered to go through to the Europa Cup final yet be relegated to the championship?

It's more of a north american mentality to put importance on the cups. TFC were pathetic in the league under Winter, and that's where we will be judged in the end of the day. Just like that Birmingham team.


WTF fuck are you talking about? It's more of North American thing? Do you think teams in europe don't place an importance on the Champions League? Was it not more important to win the Champions League rather than the league for Chelsea last year? Cups competitions are a foreign concept to North America and no one here gives a fuck about it. Look at the attendance to prove that.

TFC are utter shit un Mariner but for some reason you love him.

[Oldtimer]

;1524474']Mo Johnston's first three years were not that bad considering

That's Mo as GM. His one year as a coach was the worst TFC ever was.

[jabbronies]

I voted Mariner as worst. The football we are playing is unwatchable and we are still loosing points the same way we were under Winter.
There is no future with this style of play.
At least under Winter the games were watchable.

CC and John Carver are still 1-2 IMO
Preki and Winter follow by Daso and pulling up the rear are PM and MOJO

[mdc 77]

They are all horrible. We haven't had one good coach. This is comparing which shite smells better. I know this doesn't add to the "discussion" but really....Why even ask this question? Its just depressing.

[mdc 77]

Also do people not remember what we looked like when Winter was coach? Games were more watchable? I have to say that our games under Winter might have been the worst football we have ever played, if you think otherwise you were believing what you were sold about total football and playing like Ajax. In love with some romantic idea, blinded by it. We looked horrible and never played possesion football. I puzzled by what i read on this board now days.

rant over.

[spark]

Also do people not remember what we looked like when Winter was coach? Games were more watchable? I have to say that our games under Winter might have been the worst football we have ever played, if you think otherwise you were believing what you were sold about total football and playing like Ajax. In love with some romantic idea, blinded by it. We looked horrible and never played possesion football. I puzzled by what i read on this board now days.

rant over.

I will definitely agree until Koevs and Frings came on board it was some of the worst games we've ever seen (or I've ever seen haha).

I'm curious how Daso gets any knocks - he only got a few games and after Preki's streak, for me, was a breath of fresh air. I thought it was funny how TFC branded Winter/4-3-3 this "attacking-branded" whatever, when IMO Daso brought that in his last few games. He was the one who put Nicholas Lindsay out there and was one of the few bright moments, player-wise, I thought in 2010. The game away in Seattle was great to watch as was the last game where we won in DC (don't think we had before?).

[ryan]

Mariner. He sabotaged Winter, who while wasn't the right manager, actually had this shit show going the right way...and now it's gone.


/suicide

[[NBF]]

Mariner. He sabotaged Winter, who while wasn't the right manager, actually had this shit show going the right way...and now it's gone.


/suicide

I hope you dont mean that.....:hand:

[Auzzy]

I can't vote on this poll. Every TFC coach is/was bad in different ways. All of them also had to deal with varying levels of baggage left over from the previous guy; plus lack of support & resources in important areas; plus meddling; plus lack of a long-term vision; etc. I find it impossible to separate all that.

[Suds]

To think we had Newcastle's number two in our management team and TFC fucked that up as well.

Fuck this club is such a shit show!

[mdc 77]

Mariner. He sabotaged Winter, who while wasn't the right manager, actually had this shit show going the right way...and now it's gone.


/suicide

How can you say that? Winter followed up a positive cl run with the worse start in MLS history??? That can't be the right way.

[leafsman]

i voted mariner, team plays a shit boring style and still loses. He also plays half the team out of position so he wins this easily.

[ryan]

;1524510']I hope you dont mean that.....:hand:

Figuratively. My care about this club is about to hang itself. I never realized I wanted a footie club in my own city, then it fell in my lap and realized how great this could be. This tho? This is dumb. This isn't fun. This isn't worth the money by a long shot. They say shit, but don't actually show it. They want money and everything else is bullshit.

Apathy is about to kick in and that'll be it. I'm trying to fight it, but it's going to win.


How can you say that? Winter followed up a positive cl run with the worse start in MLS history??? That can't be the right way.

There were stats posted on the MLS website near the end of that 9 game stretch. We lead the league, by a good %, in goals against from unlikely goal scoring spots. We generated a ton of chances, that were almost all missed.

That's not on the manager, that's on the players.

They executed half of that shit, some of those tough goals miss. We're probably in a playoff spot after 9 matches instead of 0-9. It was a terribly bad and unlucky run. Do you pin Frings foolish give away vs Chicago on the coach? I don't care that he's at CB, the guy knows how to play fucking football.


It's bloody foolish to look at that 0-9 run and just ignore the things that actually happened. He may not have been the right coach, but we were playing the right fucking game. He ended the 2011 season well (and lets be fair, he only had his roster once the DP's came to town, the 1st half of 2011 wasn't his team and his plan) and we played in the CCL well. That's what Winter's team was. That was our quality and who we were. The 0-9 run was a bad run with some bad luck. We could win the way were playing, that was proven. We could play against teams above our skill in big competition, we proved that too. That CCL run wasn't fluke, we caught a break with the thunderstrom crap, but we played damn well throughout that competition.


0-9 doesn't tell the story of those 9 games. It doesn't tell you the fitness of Koevermans. It doesn't tell you any of it.



But whatever right? All that matters is results. Look at these fucking results now boys. Oh wait, we're still fucking losing and now we're playing boring, terrible football getting thrashed by teams we could hang with. Brilliant.

[Couchy81]

Mariner followed by Preki.

[trane]

Winter was not getting results, and there was no real indication that he ever would. I agree that the team became better in aspects of the game under him, but there was always something lacking.

Mariner went back to the basic, which as I said was OK, for a while, but clearly the team has not grown since, and this is what we get. Shit. Again I would have fired Mariner, and found a better manager to take us down the road already started by Winter. ( But that seems to be too simple for MLSE)What kills me is that right now, not only have we lost season 6, there is no reason to think that season 7 will be any different. So I suggest to the supporters that they start putting pressure on the club, while there still is a club, because two or three more seasons of the same, and we may not have one.

[London]

ill say this, dasovic is the closest any coach has come to getting his head punched by a supporter LOL

[ryan]

Winter was not getting results, and there was no real indication that he ever would. I agree that the team became better in aspects of the game under him, but there was always something lacking.

Mariner went back to the basic, which as I said was OK, for a while, but clearly the team has not grown since, and this is what we get. Shit. Again I would have fired Mariner, and found a better manager to take us down the road already started by Winter. ( But that seems to be too simple for MLSE)What kills me is that right now, not only have we lost season 6, there is no reason to think that season 7 will be any different. So I suggest to the supporters that they start putting pressure on the club, while there still is a club, because two or three more seasons of the same, and we may not have one.

You believe MLS would abandon Toronto? I'm doubtful. I think they would find another owner and I believe one could be found. This team can make bank if not run by this clown show.

[spark]

You believe MLS would abandon Toronto? I'm doubtful. I think they would find another owner and I believe one could be found. This team can make bank if not run by this clown show.

QFT - if Dallas still has a team there is no way, when TO has proven it can pull over 20k a match, would they move or axe this team after 2-3 years of brutal attendances. If anything, the first 3-4 years showed the people are there, but the product is woefully out of whack and now that is being reflected in the stands.

[jabbronies]

Winter was not getting results, and there was no real indication that he ever would. I agree that the team became better in aspects of the game under him, but there was always something lacking.

Mariner went back to the basic, which as I said was OK, for a while, but clearly the team has not grown since, and this is what we get. Shit. Again I would have fired Mariner, and found a better manager to take us down the road already started by Winter. ( But that seems to be too simple for MLSE)What kills me is that right now, not only have we lost season 6, there is no reason to think that season 7 will be any different. So I suggest to the supporters that they start putting pressure on the club, while there still is a club, because two or three more seasons of the same, and we may not have one.

Winter shouldn't have been sacked in the first place. Not until the end of the season. Not until they did a proper search for someone to step in and continue with the footy philosophy that was set out the season before.

Instead, they sacked him 10 games in, instilled the only person available to them who changed the whole philosophy and playing style of the first team and basically started a rebuild mid-season. A rebuild that will then need to be rebuilt again to start Season 7.

It was a short sighted plan of action to get immediate results - backed by many on this board. Results for a season that was already gone. So now that TFC has what..3-4 results from the manager change, what do we have? No plan of action, a last place club and we still have a bunch of players who can't seem to play a full 90 minutes of football. Some people complain that Winter system was too hard for the players to grasp - well it seems that Mariners boot and run simplified football is also too complicated for these same players to grasp also.

Season 6 was lost when we were 0-7. Season 7 was lost with the manager change. If you can watch this team play and think that there is "something there" that can be built on, please explain to me what that thing is. All I see are a bunch of young kids running around aimlessly while others are just kicking the ball around aimlessly. No build ups in play - all lucky breaks that happen to push forward. No ball possession - just kick and crash to maintain ball control.

[jabbronies]

QFT - if Dallas still has a team there is no way, when TO has proven it can pull over 20k a match, would they move or axe this team after 2-3 years of brutal attendances. If anything, the first 3-4 years showed the people are there, but the product is woefully out of whack and now that is being reflected in the stands.

Agreed. TFC is just another "small market" MLS team now - like Columbus or Dallas. Football is no longer the attraction to buy tickets. It's atmosphere, cheerleaders and other random happenings around the stadium to keep people occupied for 90 minutes.

[__wowza]

But apparently, for the rest of you, results have nothing to do with this poll! I feel that even if Mariner won every game from now on, he would still be hated just because he doesn't play Winter's "beautiful aesthetically pleasing passing football".

no, i hate mariner because he plays an ugly, lotteryball style game. preki ball at least had a fair bit of skill, play 11 men behind the ball and move it up field in a steady, controlled fashion. mariner is having us hoof it up field, and hope it bounces our way. if it was strictly results, preki wouldn't have any votes at all, but he does because despite getting wins, they weren't always convincing or entertaining. wins arent always the be-all-end-all of watching a game.

i watched the bruins (my favourite hockey team since i was a kid) win the cup in a game with little drama after the first period, yeah we won, did that stop me from thinking "man.. this is boring"? no at all. if that was a regular season game, i probably would've switched it off, and it would've sucked to watch live, especially if games like that comprised the bulk of our wins.


It depends how much importance you place on cups really. I don't place much importance at all. You think a team like Birmingham would have prefered to go through to the Europa Cup final yet be relegated to the championship?

It's more of a north american mentality to put importance on the cups. TFC were pathetic in the league under Winter, and that's where we will be judged in the end of the day. Just like that Birmingham team.

this answers your question, a lot of us place importance on cups. the league places importance on cups. RSL had a CCL final that sold out a stadium on a wednesday night, with viewership well above the MLS average of some of their premier matches that take place on weekends. when you compare this to a team like birmingham, you need to understand that we don't have relegation to worry about. we don't even have the entry process to worry about and making it anywhere near the top of a table to qualify. we have one, single tournament as our entry process, if we have no league hopes, pushing forward in the CCL makes sense. do you think we're going to spiral out of a 4 game tournament that gets us extra MLS funding and extra revenue because we're in danger of fluffing a match or two in the league? maybe not starting 2 or 3 games without a team comprised entirely of starters? heck, we beat edmonton without even breaking a sweat OR starting most of our first team, vancouver years before that.


It really is a case on this board that if you don't agree with everybody else, you are laughed at, made fun of, and eventually insulted. I'm out of here right now. I'm not going to take being bullied just because I don't agree with the masses.

i'd like to clarify something to you, disagreeing with you doesn't mean people are bullying you.
i brought up a contrast between dunfield and frings. people gave me shit at first, but after looking at the cold, hard facts, people who said i didn't know what i was talking about have since either agreed, or fallen silent, but im not receiving nearly the amount of criticism i was before.

if anything, it's simply because they don't understand your views. i don't agree with the optimism towards mariner, or with the teams performance, and i don't understand where it's coming from, but all-in-all, what does it matter? if people come around, they come around, if they disagree, they'll disagree. there's an "ignore list" option for a reason if you ever get tired of hearing from the same people.

[jloome]

It's more of a north american mentality to put importance on the cups.

T-Roogs, what the fuck are you talking about? You think European teams all would pick their domestic title over a Champions' League title?

Look, if you don't want aggressive behavior, you need to realize it's provocative to the point of trolling to take one side and never diverge from it, no matter what arguments or facts are put before you. If people thought you were even attempting to be open minded or objective, this wouldn't be the case. But it sounds like you're being paid by the club, the way you praise this guy.

[JonO]

Winter shouldn't have been sacked in the first place. Not until the end of the season. Not until they did a proper search for someone to step in and continue with the footy philosophy that was set out the season before.

Instead, they sacked him 10 games in, instilled the only person available to them who changed the whole philosophy and playing style of the first team and basically started a rebuild mid-season. A rebuild that will then need to be rebuilt again to start Season 7.

It was a short sighted plan of action to get immediate results - backed by many on this board. Results for a season that was already gone. So now that TFC has what..3-4 results from the manager change, what do we have? No plan of action, a last place club and we still have a bunch of players who can't seem to play a full 90 minutes of football. Some people complain that Winter system was too hard for the players to grasp - well it seems that Mariners boot and run simplified football is also too complicated for these same players to grasp also.

Season 6 was lost when we were 0-7. Season 7 was lost with the manager change. If you can watch this team play and think that there is "something there" that can be built on, please explain to me what that thing is. All I see are a bunch of young kids running around aimlessly while others are just kicking the ball around aimlessly. No build ups in play - all lucky breaks that happen to push forward. No ball possession - just kick and crash to maintain ball control.

Have to agree with jabbers on this one. By the time they replaced Winter the season was done. It was a badly timed move to appease the people upset with the start to the season. Problem is that it has sacrificed (or at least threatens to sacrifice) next season too. For whatever reason, Winter wasn't working. A switch to someone who could have continued the idea but improved on the results was needed.

I feel sorry for most of our coaches because they have been thrown under the bus by management even before their times started. Preki was tied to Mo. No way he was going to survive unless Mo did. Winter was tied to Mariner in a power structure nobody could understand. And Mariner is brought in to coach players for a system he doesn't play. Whole thing stinks if you ask me...

[TFCRegina]

Misread the poll, nobody voted Chris Cummins.

[Beach_Red]

You believe MLS would abandon Toronto? I'm doubtful. I think they would find another owner and I believe one could be found. This team can make bank if not run by this clown show.

It's all speculation, of course, but I don't think another owner could be found. Taking Bell and Rogers out of it there is no other media company looking for content.

And if the NFL can be the top league in the USA with no team in LA, losing Toronto wouldn't affect MLS at all.

Now, as to the question of the thread, maybe we should ask of everyone who's been charged with "running" TFC who was in the best situation to succeed? Were any of them in any position to succeed here?

[DangerRed]

Some interesting data from this article, pre-Mariner though - http://www.wakingthered.com/2012/6/10/3076591/ranking-toronto-fcs-coaches



Prekiball was painful to watch - but it was effective.

The numbers suprise me a bit with Cummins coming out on top across the board. And that was with MoJo meddling with the team selection.

A lot of folks forget that under Cummins, we were 1 point away from the playoffs... only to have those hopes crushed in the most humiliating way possible, with a 5-1 loss to NYRB, who were at the time one of the worst teams in the league.

[ryan]

It's all speculation, of course, but I don't think another owner could be found. Taking Bell and Rogers out of it there is no other media company looking for content.

And if the NFL can be the top league in the USA with no team in LA, losing Toronto wouldn't affect MLS at all.

Now, as to the question of the thread, maybe we should ask of everyone who's been charged with "running" TFC who was in the best situation to succeed? Were any of them in any position to succeed here?

Can MLS survive with Toronto? Yes.

Has Toronto been one of the top profiting teams (when many LOSE money) despite being utter shit? Yes.

Revenue sharing exists? Yes.


They can survive without Toronto, but they want our money, no doubt about it. CBC would pick the games back up, they need more content with their problems these days.

You don't grow profits by moving away from one of your top markets. TFC is profitable, who wouldn't want to own something profitable?

[brad]

It depends how much importance you place on cups really. I don't place much importance at all. You think a team like Birmingham would have prefered to go through to the Europa Cup final yet be relegated to the championship?

It's more of a north american mentality to put importance on the cups. TFC were pathetic in the league under Winter, and that's where we will be judged in the end of the day. Just like that Birmingham team.

Your analogy is bad. Birmingham getting relegated a direct negative impact where as TFC finishing near the bottom has no direct negative impact. In fact - relegation come with major financial losses, where as finishing bottom carries the positive of higher draft picks.

A more apt analogy would be to ask If Birmingham fans would prefer a higher table finish vs a 17th place finish but make it to a Europa Cup final. Even then it's not a direct comparison as higher place finishes in the EPL get more prize money.

[TFC_Allez]

I voted for Paul Mariner. The simple fact that I'm nearly able to fall asleep while standing in a supporters section at BMO during a match and the depression that every loss is met with is a testament to how bad of a manager he's become/always been. Aron Winter may have set an all time record for most consecutive losses to start a season, but without 2 of our most important players not even playing a full game together, healthy, in those first 10 games, I don't think it's COMPLETELY fair to judge him as the worst. I know its a coulda woulda shoulda type situation, but at least we were competitive and the football was entertaining, and the stadium was still relatively full. I'm BOREDDDDDDDDDDD...the team is still losing...and we look even worse when doing it.

[brad]

To think we had Newcastle's number two in our management team and TFC fucked that up as well.

Fuck this club is such a shit show!

Being a quality #2 doesn't mean you will be a quality #1. See exhibit Carlos Quieroz for details.

[brad]

You believe MLS would abandon Toronto? I'm doubtful. I think they would find another owner and I believe one could be found. This team can make bank if not run by this clown show.

Even with current ownership - if revenue declines from one source, they will make it up from others. Friendlies a one area I suspect we will see a lot more of for this reason.

[brad]

Agreed. TFC is just another "small market" MLS team now - like Columbus or Dallas. Football is no longer the attraction to buy tickets. It's atmosphere, cheerleaders and other random happenings around the stadium to keep people occupied for 90 minutes.

It's not MLS losing interest I wonder about - it's MLSE. While I suspect they will continue making profits - if they do not, and don't forecast an that they will start, there interest in funding a team will cease.

I do think they see the future profit coming from selling academy players overseas (the real reason for the Academy IMHO). Ajax themselves realized that selling players was were the real money was...

I suspect they are looking at a longer ROI on that investment though - probably in the 5-10 year range.

[trane]

Winter shouldn't have been sacked in the first place. Not until the end of the season. Not until they did a proper search for someone to step in and continue with the footy philosophy that was set out the season before.

Instead, they sacked him 10 games in, instilled the only person available to them who changed the whole philosophy and playing style of the first team and basically started a rebuild mid-season. A rebuild that will then need to be rebuilt again to start Season 7.

It was a short sighted plan of action to get immediate results - backed by many on this board. Results for a season that was already gone. So now that TFC has what..3-4 results from the manager change, what do we have? No plan of action, a last place club and we still have a bunch of players who can't seem to play a full 90 minutes of football. Some people complain that Winter system was too hard for the players to grasp - well it seems that Mariners boot and run simplified football is also too complicated for these same players to grasp also.

Season 6 was lost when we were 0-7. Season 7 was lost with the manager change. If you can watch this team play and think that there is "something there" that can be built on, please explain to me what that thing is. All I see are a bunch of young kids running around aimlessly while others are just kicking the ball around aimlessly. No build ups in play - all lucky breaks that happen to push forward. No ball possession - just kick and crash to maintain ball control.

Winter shuold have been fired, any organization would have fired him. But he should not have been fired untill a proper coach was found, that clearly did not happen. Instead MLSE turned around, gave the job to a guy who should also have been held responsible.

I also do not understand why Winter's number 2 man, did not share Winter's vision? Having the second in command who is a non-beleiver makes not sense.

[Fort York Redcoat]

A lot of folks forget that under Cummins, we were 1 point away from the playoffs... only to have those hopes crushed in the most humiliating way possible, with a 5-1 loss to NYRB, who were at the time one of the worst teams in the league.

Ok I didn't have to bring it up this time...

Thanks for that. Small consolation on such a terrible memory, though..ugh

[TFCRegina]

Ok I didn't have to bring it up this time...

Thanks for that. Small consolation on such a terrible memory, though..ugh

And Cummins also said that Mo actively interfered towards the end of the season, in tactics and squad selection.

They threatened to sue him for slander but backed away.

I wonder why.

[jabbronies]

Winter shuold have been fired, any organization would have fired him. But he should not have been fired untill a proper coach was found, that clearly did not happen. Instead MLSE turned around, gave the job to a guy who should also have been held responsible.

I also do not understand why Winter's number 2 man, did not share Winter's vision? Having the second in command who is a non-beleiver makes not sense.

TFC flinched at the first sign of trouble with the implementation of the philosophy set out the year prior. Anyone who thought they would just waltz in and become untouchable team within a year were disillusion. There is always going to be rough times when overhauling a whole franchise the way TFC set out to do. They got scared and botched the whole process.

Obviously Winter had to leave, but only after they found a replacement who could work the system they were building. If they were smart, when they were 0-6 they should've started a proper search for a new manager that would've kept them on the path they had created. IMO that would've taken til mid-late summer, possibly even the fall. Unless you already have someone lined up (which they are not capable of doing as past managerial searches have proven), you don't just find a manager who would fit as soon as you start to look for one. Paul Mariner is not a manager we should have. He shouldn't be a caretaker or the full time boss. He should be taking the the same amount of blame for the mess this team is now in. He was getting the players, that's what his job was. They didn't perform under Winter and they are still not performing under him.

As I've said before there is nothing in his resume, both playing and coaching, that says he can coach possession based system. They players are proving that now. He has proved that as well by constantly reminding the media that we should be playing boot and run.

[brad]

^^Should have gone with Rongen as the interim to keep the philosophy the same while looking for a sutiable coach to continue on the path they started.

[trane]

^ But that would have made sense.

[DaBandit]

This poll reminds me of that collgate commercial...

2 out of 3 TFC supporter DONT recommend hiring Mariner as you're head coach.. g:D

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

^^Should have gone with Rongen as the interim to keep the philosophy the same while looking for a sutiable coach to continue on the path they started.

But then whose voice and commentary would make my ears bleed on the GOLTV broadcasts? Nevermind, surely those guys who do GOL's international games would have been asked and, yes, they are more irritating than Rongen.

[prizby]

I would say Paul Mariner. He is pretty much another Mo for me except he won more games. They both were liars who didn't have a vision and adopt a backward soccer. Both of them failed to bring in a quality defender while giving us a bad rep in the league for treating players badly.

darren o'dea? prolly the best defender we have ever had?

[Code Red]

;1524474']



Coach


Year


Points


GP


Wins


Losses


Ties


GF


GA


G.D.


Overall


MLS Draft




Johnston

2007

25

30

6

17

7

25

49

-24

13/13

M.Edu, A.Boyens



Carver

2008

35

30

9

13

8

34

43

-9

12/14

J.James, P.Phelan



Carver/Cummins

2009

39

30

10

11

9

37

46

-9

12/15

S.Cronin, S.Frei, O.B.White



Preki/Dasovic

2010

35

30

9

13

8

33

41

-8

11/16

No 1st Rounder



Winter

2011

33

34

6

13

15

36

59

-23

16/18

No 1st Rounder



Winter/Mariner

2012

21

26

5

15

6

29

46

-17

19/19

L.Silva, A. Maund











Thanks for taking the time to compile this chart NBF. First thing that sticks out for me from these stats is that this club has been taking ONE step forward and TWO steps back since its inception into MLS.
It's season six and we're playing for absolutely nothing but to see if we can finish above our inaugural season's 25 pt count (2007). How sad is that? But hey, at least we have a benchmark to surpass. :facepalm:

Worst coach: Mariner

Best coach: Cummins

[Cashcleaner]

Also do people not remember what we looked like when Winter was coach? Games were more watchable? I have to say that our games under Winter might have been the worst football we have ever played, if you think otherwise you were believing what you were sold about total football and playing like Ajax. In love with some romantic idea, blinded by it. We looked horrible and never played possesion football. I puzzled by what i read on this board now days.

rant over.

I don't get it either. Winter was the absolute worst manager we ever had, and this team played the worst under his stewardship. I really think a lot of people aren't being totally honest with themselves when they suggest otherwise.



A lot of folks forget that under Cummins, we were 1 point away from the playoffs... only to have those hopes crushed in the most humiliating way possible, with a 5-1 loss to NYRB, who were at the time one of the worst teams in the league.

Oh I agree! I'd go so far as to say Carver and Cummins were the most capable managers we've ever had. If either man had more time to work with, who knows what could have happened? Like you said, we were 1 point away from playoffs.

[ensco]

Mariner at 65%....these poll results are crazy. I voted Winter, but really, is there much to choose between any of these guys?

I wonder if Mariner also causes global warming.

[v00d00daddy]

I don't get it either. Winter was the absolute worst manager we ever had, and this team played the worst under his stewardship. I really think a lot of people aren't being totally honest with themselves when they suggest otherwise.

Absolute? Lol
People who don't think Winter was the worst are lying to themselves? Lol

Ridiculous comments. I'm sorry. You're entitled to your opinion but to suggest that people are lying to themselves is arrogant beyond belief.

Some people care about more things than only results.

And if we're being arrogant maybe I'll just suggest that if you think Mariner is better than Winter and that Winters style was ugly then you don't even know what you're watching these days because your footballing mind is stuck in 1980. Lol


Mariner at 65%....these poll results are crazy. I voted Winter, but really, is there much to choose between any of these guys?

I wonder if Mariner also causes global warming.

I agree that there isn't much to separate these guys. Like somebody mentioned...which shit smells the least.

I don't vote on polls but my vote goes to any coach that employs kick and run football as their main means of attack and defending.

Mariner didn't cause global warmin but I ask you this:

What are his saving graces right now?

Here are the things people praised him for a month ago:

-results (now gone)
-players coach (obvious tension between him and some starters now and he's calling people out in the press)

What's left to praise him for?

Groovy shorts and busted glasses?
Liverpool pedigree?

Lol

[Fort York Redcoat]

Before we run off the rails let's take a breath and realize before things get too heated-

We're discussing if our present coach is the 2nd or 3rd worst coach we've ever had.

It's been said elsewhere that we should probably be aiming higher and looking toward comparing with the rest of the league instead of spending so much time on how much suck this present guy sucks in comparison to the last suck.

Mariner has a chance to improve his "legacy" here before end of season but it's so close between 2nd and 3rd I don't see much use in belaboring it.

It's great seeing the stats for all to see, though.

Carver, Cummins, Dasovic. Better days, indeed.

[Wull]

my vote for mariner was as much to do with him undermining Winter as it was for the performances under him.


IIRC there was absolutely no way people on here would have accepted Dasovic remaining at the helm beyond his caretaker role, if only we'd canned mo and let Cummins give us some stability. In saying that he wished Robbo luck against us earlier this season so ...........

[Canary10]

Mariner at 65%....these poll results are crazy. I voted Winter, but really, is there much to choose between any of these guys?

I wonder if Mariner also causes global warming.

He's certainly not responsible for the rise of the metrosexual.

[invictusTFC]

This discussion in itself demonstrates how embarrassing this club has been since its inception. The worst is watching clubs like Montreal come in and have success right of the bat. It's frustrating...

[ComedyOfErrors]

I voted for Paul Mariner. I tried to not let my present frustration cloud my thinking but instead, look at what direction I think 'we' are headed in...All I see is a dark tunnel with a bright light at the end of it. The bright light is an oncoming train and we are strapped to the tracks.
Paul Mariner undermined Winter, his player selections while under Winter and his inflated ego are evidence of this. PM has instilled a terrible style of play which is hard to watch and more importantly, results speak for themselves- statistically, the train is accelarating through the tunnel at devastating speed. The way players are treated is another key area in which to measure Mr. Mariner. League reputation is important in attracting new signings. I have listened to JDG's interview over and over and it is so clear as to the way this team is mismanaged and it seems surreal. Players talk to other players, agents to agents, etc. Our reputation has suffered under PM, as if that was possible. The final straw for me is the recent habit of calling out players in the media. Most recently Frings has been the latest target after the CCL match. To me, this is a sign of an unprofessional coach/manager/voice of the club.
I think there is one point we can all agree on. The entire situation of poor coaching, no direction, limited hope for the immediate future, utter disregard for supporters, etc., lies with Tom Anselmi and the ML$E. The light of the oncoming train is blinding....

[gate7]

I honestly wonder what Winters stats would have been like if Mariner wasn't in the picture at all.....

[Pookie]

I honestly wonder what Winters stats would have been like if Mariner wasn't in the picture at all.....

Not just Winter's stats but our future as well. I've talked about the importance of the draft and the kind of game changing players that are available but this offseason will be a very important one for the direction of the club. Since it is so weak at scouting, it relies heavily on the Academy and Rongren and de Clerk are all that is left of the "Visionaries" that preached attacking, possession minded football.

I was tweeting with Kurtis Larson about de Clerk and these two tweets are deeply concerning for me:

Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN)
@GardnerFanfuel (https://twitter.com/GardnerFanfuel) @67leafnation (https://twitter.com/67leafnation) I've been by people around the team that Mariner doesn't want him touching the academy.

Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN)
@GardnerFanfuel (https://twitter.com/GardnerFanfuel) @67leafnation (https://twitter.com/67leafnation) I don't know anything about their deals. I know De Klerk pretty much does nothing.


Mariner is running this his way. As we all would do if given the change. However, as a result of Anselmi giving him the keys the team looks to be on the verge of setting a very different course that will be hard to alter. Meaning that if Mariner was sacked, a new visionary would have to work with the infrastructure that Mariner has put in place (including Cochrane, Brennan and whomever else is to take over the Academy... perhaps as rumoured, Dunfield may have a post-career role there).

[tfc2008]

I vote the supporters, why because there is not one fan to have patient for a trainer to make a team from this crap.
there is not one trainer good inoff to come to Toronto, wat trainer it is the men cant in two days make a team from crap like this.
it take at least on year to do something with this crap

[bigredone]

^Time to hunker down and wait for the dust to settle.^ Myself, like most here, will be glad to raise our heads when the time is right.

[Richard]

Not just Winter's stats but our future as well. I've talked about the importance of the draft and the kind of game changing players that are available but this offseason will be a very important one for the direction of the club. Since it is so weak at scouting, it relies heavily on the Academy and Rongren and de Clerk are all that is left of the "Visionaries" that preached attacking, possession minded football.

I was tweeting with Kurtis Larson about de Clerk and these two tweets are deeply concerning for me:

Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN)
@GardnerFanfuel (https://twitter.com/GardnerFanfuel) @67leafnation (https://twitter.com/67leafnation) I've been by people around the team that Mariner doesn't want him touching the academy.

Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN)
@GardnerFanfuel (https://twitter.com/GardnerFanfuel) @67leafnation (https://twitter.com/67leafnation) I don't know anything about their deals. I know De Klerk pretty much does nothing.


Mariner is running this his way. As we all would do if given the change. However, as a result of Anselmi giving him the keys the team looks to be on the verge of setting a very different course that will be hard to alter. Meaning that if Mariner was sacked, a new visionary would have to work with the infrastructure that Mariner has put in place (including Cochrane, Brennan and whomever else is to take over the Academy... perhaps as rumoured, Dunfield may have a post-career role there).


There absolutely needs to be a clean house if a new manager has any chance of succeeding. Mariner should have been the caretaker, now its seems like he is going to further destroy the repuation of TFC and plans going forward.

[TFC07]

Not just Winter's stats but our future as well. I've talked about the importance of the draft and the kind of game changing players that are available but this offseason will be a very important one for the direction of the club. Since it is so weak at scouting, it relies heavily on the Academy and Rongren and de Clerk are all that is left of the "Visionaries" that preached attacking, possession minded football.

I was tweeting with Kurtis Larson about de Clerk and these two tweets are deeply concerning for me:

Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN)
@GardnerFanfuel (https://twitter.com/GardnerFanfuel) @67leafnation (https://twitter.com/67leafnation) I've been by people around the team that Mariner doesn't want him touching the academy.

Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN)
@GardnerFanfuel (https://twitter.com/GardnerFanfuel) @67leafnation (https://twitter.com/67leafnation) I don't know anything about their deals. I know De Klerk pretty much does nothing.


Mariner is running this his way. As we all would do if given the change. However, as a result of Anselmi giving him the keys the team looks to be on the verge of setting a very different course that will be hard to alter. Meaning that if Mariner was sacked, a new visionary would have to work with the infrastructure that Mariner has put in place (including Cochrane, Brennan and whomever else is to take over the Academy... perhaps as rumoured, Dunfield may have a post-career role there).


Wow, just wow. Mariner is more a cancer than Mo Johnson. Who would have thought of that?

Mariner must have some sort of hidden agenda to kill pro soccer in Toronto. That's only logical reason why Mariner doing all these things.

[narduch]

Mariner doesn't have a hidden agenda. He wants to work again after TFC.

I think he is just out of his depth.

[backbeat]

Mariner doesn't have a hidden agenda. He wants to work again after TFC.

I think he is just out of his depth.


i think Mariner has a serious ego problem that overrides his decision making to the detriment of the organization and team.

[narduch]

i think Mariner has a serious ego problem that overrides his decision making to the detriment of the organization and team.

I can agree with that. The guy wants to win. His own career depends on it too. If he is an abject failure he may end up like Preki.

[Auzzy]

A few days ago I said I can't vote on this poll, because there are so many problems in this organization in addition to the coaching. I've changed my mind. No subs used against one of the top teams in the league? Freddy Hall in net over Kocic? Avila rotting on the bench? Short bench again, with Cordon & Makubuya left home? Throwing Torsten Frings under the bus, when there are so many other players & obvious problems that should share the blame? Aaron Maund playing 90 minutes in the midfield, and the only time he attempts a pass, he injures himself? Paul Mariner, get the fuck out of here.

[Rene Kingsriver]

As much as Mariner is an embarrassment I still think he's a better MLS coach than Winter but rarely has praise been more faint

[Section 117]

The sad thing is that we can have this conversation about TFC and we are only 6 years old. This makes me sad

Where are those people who were clamoring for Mariner while winter was still here???

[Heart of Stone]

C.C. was the best we've had... and that is a FACT. Too bad Canadian immigration wouldn't let his wife stay.

[arsenal]

The situation for this off-season is desperate. If Mariner is still in charge by the end of the season and calling the shots then TFC is pretty much dead for years to come. The man is a dinosaur .... he may have been a decent choice back in year 1 of TFC but MLS has evolved significantly since then and he obviously has not. Tactics and player acquisition/selection suggest he is stuck in the past.

Going into 2013, TFC has significant opportunity for change:
1) Lots of salary cap space freed to replace DP's or make other signings (possibly all 3 DP slots open)
2) Looking like #1 or #2 overall pick in the SuperDraft
3) #1 or #2 allocation position
4) Decision of Frei or Kocic and resulting trade to offload the one who is not kept
5) Decision to keep Plata or not (assuming he is just on loan back home at the moment)

Whoever is in charge making these decisions will be molding the team for the next few years to come ..... be very afraid.

[Shakes McQueen]

C.C. was the best we've had... and that is a FACT. Too bad Canadian immigration wouldn't let his wife stay.

Chris Cummins was handed the most talented TFC lineup, top to bottom.

Our worst coach was Mo. He was just fortunate enough to coach at a time when everyone was just happy to have a team.

- Scott

[ag futbol]

Chris Cummins was handed the most talented TFC lineup, top to bottom.

Our worst coach was Mo. He was just fortunate enough to coach at a time when everyone was just happy to have a team.

- ScottWhile, I'd mostly agree... it's also worth stating he absolutely no control over the players that were brought in. we were definitely short in a few areas and Mo Johnston failed to address them.

Cummins did the best job he could with what he was given to work with IMO.

[Oldtimer]

While this thread said worst post-Mo coach of TFC, it could be argued, based on his record, that Mariner is the all-time worst coach of TFC.

[Ben - D.O.W.]

Great point. I didn't realize at first how old this thread was and I was going to say "wait, when did we decide PM was better then Mo?". On the bus ride home on Saturday some people actually commented that they'd take Mo back over PM, I didn't think I'd ever see that day.

[T-boy]

The sad thing is that we can have this conversation about TFC and we are only 6 years old. This makes me sad

Where are those people who were clamoring for Mariner while winter was still here???

Ok - so looking back:

You all know I was totally a fan of removing Winter and bring in Mariner. We all agree Winter needed to go. My main issue with the Winter removal was that it should have happened 4 or 5 games sooner than it did. A football team HAS to have some ambition of climbing the table and getting to the playoffs/promotion. The problem of having Winter get to 9 games without a win was that ALL of the season was lost. Winter needed to go sooner, and at least give TFC the "new manager boost" a lot sooner. The "new manager boost" is common with a new coach, happens nearly every time there is a new coach at a club. But, 9 games into the season without a point is FAR too late to get a new manager boost - the playoffs were lost already.

So, the first point is: when should a club fire a coach? For me, I wouldn't give a coach more than 5 games without a win - *especially* at the start of the season. I'd possibly give a coach more time mid season if the team is off form. But at the start of a season - maximum 5 games. I'm not sure what Anselmi was thinking by leaving it SO long. Leaving it that long meant the season was lost and any "new manager boost" wasn't actually going to give TFC anything in the season - it was already lost.

So, when Mariner replaced Winter, I was totally fine with that (other than it being too late). Indeed Mariner, like many new coaches DID get a "new manager boost" and got some points on the board. But we all know what happened after that - form dipped completely, and injuries then rubbed in and we are winless for 13 games.

I'm going to totally admit that I liked Mariner to start with. BUT, he was getting the "new manager boost". That's fine. But at what point, when the boost ends, do you look at replacing him? For me personally, I'm totally on the fence as to when this is. Did the injuries to players help? No. But does that mean I'd give Mariner more time? I'm honestly not sure. A part of me really wants to ser IF he can improve things with a fully fit squad. But part of me also thinks that his mid season TFC form was JUST down to a "new manager boost" and nothing more - so even if he is given a whole off-season, it wouldn't make any difference.

So for this off season, TFC have two choices. First, they fire Mariner right now - before the season is over. That gives the intention that you simply CANNOT go this long without a win. Mariner shouldn't be given the last two games of the season, it should be an all out vote of no confidence. Or secondly - we (TFC and the fans) HAVE to agree at what point a team should fire a manager, especially at the start of a season. And that point, for me, is a MAXIMUM of 5 games. Going 9 games is FAR too long.

For the record - I would have fired Mariner after around 7 or 8 winless games. I was totally behind the guy mid season. But you simply cannot go THAT long wihout a win. Winter should have gone soon, and so should Mariner. The way I see it is that if a Manager can't get form out of a team within 4 months of taking over, then he never will. The new manager boost only lasts 4 or 5 games max - after that "reality form" kicks in. If Mariner couldn't get a result in 7/8 games, then there is no point waiting until next season. Winter should have gone sooner, and so should Mariner.