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tfcmanu
08-24-2012, 08:18 AM
I find this interesting, Your thoughts please:

The report’s authors are also bullish on pro soccer, suggesting Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa will all be able to support Major League Soccer teams by 2035, in addition to the existing teams in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver.


http://metronews.ca/sports/345987/canada-ripe-for-major-league-sports-expansion/

Fort York Redcoat
08-24-2012, 08:27 AM
Maybe. It's not like MLS won't take the money. NBA and MLB will be a bit shy about the stability factor with good cause.


But back to the sport that matters here:

I don't think MLS should get too drunk on soccer in Canada with how Vanny and Montreal are doing - Poorer in the stands even despite being better in the standings.

I hope that teams are conservative when trying to grow the game here. Calgary, Ottawa should put some time in in the USL or NASL before the test the top tier.

Technorgasm
08-24-2012, 08:50 AM
you know what else is ripe?
these fuckign PEACHES. . . DAMN they are delicious.

FC Edmonton should get to be the next one!

Beach_Red
08-24-2012, 08:59 AM
It's going to be interesting to see how sports attendance goes in the next decade. It could go really well but it might also go the way of live theatre.

ensco
08-24-2012, 09:00 AM
The report’s authors are also bullish on pro soccer, suggesting Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa will all be able to support Major League Soccer teams by 2035



What the author missed is that MLS will have merged with the J-League and A-League by then to form the Intercontinental League, which will be made practical by the advent of virtual reality game synthesizers (players won't need to be in the same place, to play), and hypersonic flight.

Walms
08-24-2012, 09:16 AM
you know what else is ripe?
these fuckign PEACHES. . . DAMN they are delicious.


I KNOW EH! I've have like 4 baskets in the last 2 days, they grew them with crack this year

Suds
08-24-2012, 09:22 AM
you know what else is ripe?
these fuckign PEACHES. . . DAMN they are delicious.

FC Edmonton should get to be the next one!

been all over the peaches ... home made peach frozen yogurt, sangria, cobblers ... the list goes on

As for the OP - Canada is ripe because we have many cities that are growing both in wealth and population. However, many of those same cities are small to American standards. I could see Calgary and Vancouver supporting another major league sports team in the near future. Ottawa and Montreal I'm not 100% sold on. Montreal can in a finicky market. It will not be easy for anyone to break in there.

ryan
08-24-2012, 09:24 AM
off topic from TFC but


The study, released Thursday, also suggests that by the year 2035, another seven cities could support Canadian Football League franchises.


I would die. A 14-16 team CFL? *droolssssssssss*

reggie
08-24-2012, 09:29 AM
i wonder when TORONTO will get a team,i look foward to that,i may buy season tickets..:facepalm:

Technorgasm
08-24-2012, 09:31 AM
I KNOW EH! I've have like 4 baskets in the last 2 days, they grew them with crack this year

UNREAL!
I am 3 away from my 4th lil basket!
the juiciest, juiciest, juiciest treat!
in a pie, on ice cream, just washed and raw. . Im on like 6 a day. . I CANT STOP!!

oh ya, something about football, something something. .

DELICIOUS !!!

Suds
08-24-2012, 09:34 AM
i wonder when TORONTO will get a team,i look foward to that,i may buy season tickets..:facepalm:

It would be interesting if any of the major leagues that MLSE has teams in would eventually give in to demand to allow another team in the Toronto/Golden Horseshoe market.

Cashcleaner
08-24-2012, 09:38 AM
More and more it's starting to look like Toronto will end up getting an NFL team sometime in the next few years. Not saying this will happen, but it seems like the case to me. I think that will push the Argos out to either Moncton or Halifax. I think the CFL will be sticking with 9 teams once Ottawa is back (2014 last time I heard). The only way I see further expansion is if a formal partnership is perhaps made with the NFL and it becomes a developmental league - though that is a bit of a long-shot.

As for hockey, as much sense as it may make for Quebec City to get another NHL team, I don't see it happening anytime soon. Look at how long it took for the Jets to come back to Winnipeg. The league is incredibly reluctant when it comes to further expansion north of the border. There are plenty of cities that I believe could support a team such as Halifax or Hamilton, but the league has made it clear about where it stands on which cities are considered for expansion and which ones are not.

And while I'd love to see pro baseball return to Montreal or perhaps make it's way into Vancouver, again, there's nothing really in the cards that suggest Canadian expansion by MLB is being even remotely considered.

I think in the case of the NBA, they might consider Montreal or perhaps Vancouver again, but I can't think of any teams doing so poorly now in terms of attendance and revenue that the league would consider Canadian expansion.

Now, as for soccer, I agree that this is where things get flipped around. Don't really know about Edmonton, but Calgary looks promising to me. It's the third largest city in Canada and one of the fastest growing, and has a relatively high immigrant population. Ottawa put a bid in for MLS a few years back and I wonder if their new NASL club in town is successful someone (Melnyk) might make another attempt at wooing a top-flight franchise. Much of this is completely dependent on how big a league Garber wants. We're at 19 teams currently, and I believe the idea is to "plateau" at 20 for a while. There's plenty of other candidate cities to consider as well: Phoenix, Miami, New York 2, etc.

Suds
08-24-2012, 09:42 AM
And while I'd love to see pro baseball return to Montreal or perhaps make it's way into Vancouver, again, there's nothing really in the cards that suggest Canadian expansion by MLB is being even remotely considered.




I agree that MLB is probably not looking at Vancouver but I think baseball would do well there. At the amateur level baseball is extremely popular in BC. You also have the influx of immigrants from the Pacific rim where baseball is very popular. I think baseball could thrive in BC for the long term. I'd be interested in knowing how many fans travel to Seattle for baseball. That might be a good indicator for demand.

FIAF
08-24-2012, 10:04 AM
More and more it's starting to look like Toronto will end up getting an NFL team sometime in the next few years. Not saying this will happen, but it seems like the case to me. I think that will push the Argos out to either Moncton or Halifax. I think the CFL will be sticking with 9 teams once Ottawa is back (2014 last time I heard). The only way I see further expansion is if a formal partnership is perhaps made with the NFL and it becomes a developmental league - though that is a bit of a long-shot.

As for hockey, as much sense as it may make for Quebec City to get another NHL team, I don't see it happening anytime soon. Look at how long it took for the Jets to come back to Winnipeg. The league is incredibly reluctant when it comes to further expansion north of the border. There are plenty of cities that I believe could support a team such as Halifax or Hamilton, but the league has made it clear about where it stands on which cities are considered for expansion and which ones are not.

And while I'd love to see pro baseball return to Montreal or perhaps make it's way into Vancouver, again, there's nothing really in the cards that suggest Canadian expansion by MLB is being even remotely considered.

I think in the case of the NBA, they might consider Montreal or perhaps Vancouver again, but I can't think of any teams doing so poorly now in terms of attendance and revenue that the league would consider Canadian expansion.

Now, as for soccer, I agree that this is where things get flipped around. Don't really know about Edmonton, but Calgary looks promising to me. It's the third largest city in Canada and one of the fastest growing, and has a relatively high immigrant population. Ottawa put a bid in for MLS a few years back and I wonder if their new NASL club in town is successful someone (Melnyk) might make another attempt at wooing a top-flight franchise. Much of this is completely dependent on how big a league Garber wants. We're at 19 teams currently, and I believe the idea is to "plateau" at 20 for a while. There's plenty of other candidate cities to consider as well: Phoenix, Miami, New York 2, etc.

Stopped reading at A.Footbal team in Toronto. Oh god no! keep the A.Gridiron out in with the Canadian...

Cashcleaner
08-24-2012, 10:06 AM
^ I'm no NFL fan myself, but the stars seem aligned for exactly that in the future.

PopePouri
08-24-2012, 10:09 AM
The problem with more expansion is the dilution of talent. I'd rather they keep it to twenty teams and try growing the sport around that.

[NBF]
08-24-2012, 10:15 AM
IMO, the Canadian public would shy away from sports that favour uncapped spending like in the NBA or MLB. The competition is too lopsided for any Canadian team to really compete in any of those leagues.

The CFL and NHL will definitely expand further in Canada. The CFL, IMO, can definitely build successful franchises in Ottawa, Quebec City, Halifax, and maybe even Saskatoon or Windsor. The NHL is inevitably moving to Quebec City without any doubt and you can also see teams being well supported in Hamilton and Windsor.

Fuck the NBA, it has no business in Vancouver, or any other city in Canada. The NBA might want to look for a City to move a team to in Canada but the interest will be no different than putting a NBA team in Charlotte. The more likelier places for the NBA to expand to are Seattle, Cincinnati, and possibly St.Louis.:deadhorse:

As far as MLS, I fucking doubt that MLS teams will move to Calgary, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Quebec City or Any other major hub in Canada. The MLS will not be the first team in the world to have a 24 or 25 team top league. I think the NASL is more likely to gain a few more Canadian teams, but if Canadian Football goes in that route, you can easily see a Canadian Premier League rather than an expansion of the NASL.

A Canadian league with at least 8 to 10 teams would give two spots in the CONCACAF Champions League. Based on the fact that the top leagues in Central American Countries all receive at least 2 spots in the Champions League. So it would be more beneficial to start a Domestic League than join the NASL.

ryan
08-24-2012, 10:18 AM
^ I'm no NFL fan myself, but the stars seem aligned for exactly that in the future.

Not so sure about it. Here's why..

-Much work is being done to get Buffalo to stay put.
-Rogers Centre is not acceptable as a full time NFL team home, where's a billion dollars coming from to build one?
-They can't sell out 55K the Bills, who are the most popular team in the GTA.
-People aren't willing to pay what they want to charge for the lame faux NFL experience you get in Toronto
-Canadians will be fans with or without a team in Toronto. They are interested in Global expansion, they already have our attention.
-The CFL is far more important to Canada than many realize and an NFL team in Toronto would hurt things greatly. The Government may have interests in maintaining this league and have stepped in before.
-The CFL will never be a developmental league to the NFL in status. It may be viewed as one for some, but it will never accept that role. That's insulting as all hell to anyone of the millions who watch the CFL.
-Players, like in the NBA, will have a hard time coming here. The "Canada sucks" mentality is still very prevalent amongst Americans, the high taxes are also a huge issue for many. Hard to build a club with that in place. Who wants to own a team that may not be able to fill the house, has a market like Jacksonville (where tonnes of NFL fans exist...but have unbreakable ties to other teams), and will have a hard time getting top talent? That's a risky venture.


The stars are only aligned by those who speak about it with stars in their eyes. It's a just a dream.

Cashcleaner
08-24-2012, 10:20 AM
The problem with more expansion is the dilution of talent. I'd rather they keep it to twenty teams and try growing the sport around that.

This is an excellent point. I agree, I think we'd have a much better league if we stayed at 20 teams and be done with it. You could easily create a balanced single table schedule with 20 teams right now if you streamlined the playoffs a bit or perhaps even dropped the all-star match.

ryan
08-24-2012, 10:23 AM
A spinoff thread...

If there were 6 more cities to support pro clubs, would you want TFC/VWFC/IMFC to fuck off from MLS and form a top tier Canadian league?

London
08-24-2012, 10:27 AM
how is the CFL more important then we realize??

Beach_Red
08-24-2012, 10:29 AM
Not so sure about it. Here's why..

-Much work is being done to get Buffalo to stay put.
-Rogers Centre is not acceptable as a full time NFL team home, where's a billion dollars coming from to build one?
-They can't sell out 55K the Bills, who are the most popular team in the GTA.
-People aren't willing to pay what they want to charge for the lame faux NFL experience you get in Toronto
-Canadians will be fans with or without a team in Toronto. They are interested in Global expansion, they already have our attention.
-The CFL is far more important to Canada than many realize and an NFL team in Toronto would hurt things greatly. The Government may have interests in maintaining this league and have stepped in before.
-The CFL will never be a developmental league to the NFL in status. It may be viewed as one for some, but it will never accept that role. That's insulting as all hell to anyone of the millions who watch the CFL.
-Players, like in the NBA, will have a hard time coming here. The "Canada sucks" mentality is still very prevalent amongst Americans, the high taxes are also a huge issue for many. Hard to build a club with that in place. Who wants to own a team that may not be able to fill the house, has a market like Jacksonville (where tonnes of NFL fans exist...but have unbreakable ties to other teams), and will have a hard time getting top talent? That's a risky venture.


The stars are only aligned by those who speak about it with stars in their eyes. It's a just a dream.

The biggest issue is ownership. Since the NFL doesn't allow corporate ownership, who would put up the billion dollars to put a team in Toronto? Look how long it took to sell the Leafs and then it took a merger of two media giants. The NFL wouldn't allow a Bell-Rogers co-ownership, so who is there? And then there's the issue that the NFL is a TV league and doesn't need more teams to increase TV revenue. Would TV ratings really go up for the NFL if there was a team in Toronto?

This is really the issue that all live sports are going to be facing more and more in the future as they have to compete with themselves, so to speak. We can watch the best teams in the world on TV or we can go see our local teams live. The gap is going to widen.

ryan
08-24-2012, 10:54 AM
how is the CFL more important then we realize??

Most people don't realize that 30% of the country watches the Grey Cup, or that they do viewship in the millions for many games. It's part of our heritage and means a great deal to the communities where the teams are (minus Toronto).

Many Torontonians I know, have this "lolz CFL is stupid with its rouges and amateur athletes, just fold it" mentality. Yeah, lets just dismiss a 100 year old league that was just as important to building our country as hockey teams were in the early stages of the NHL.

kodiakTFC
08-24-2012, 11:26 AM
A spinoff thread...

If there were 6 more cities to support pro clubs, would you want TFC/VWFC/IMFC to fuck off from MLS and form a top tier Canadian league?

I've thought about this many times. I still don't have an answer. Perhaps if we didn't lose any salary space but I a lot of players come here because we are in the American MLS, I think it could hurt TFC to be in a Canadian league.

daner90
08-24-2012, 11:33 AM
how is the CFL more important then we realize??

Agreed Pat. The CFL = Useless

London
08-24-2012, 11:41 AM
i like CFL but its about as relevent as WNBA, 25% of those 30% must be in the west

Fort York Redcoat
08-24-2012, 12:12 PM
For a long time I hated the thought of NFL in Toronto and dreaded the demise of our oldest team in NA in the Argonauts but no longer. The leading reason I'm not going to get too panicky about comings and goings of pro sports teams in Canada is that there always seems to be another one around the corner and the landscape is always changing.

-NFL- One team in Toronto would be a popular tourist attraction that many wouldn't care about for years anyway. Even if they were NFL fans in Toronto most would only think of buying seasons for business or some other team in the league.

-MLB- Montreal? Vancouver? Fine don't care and they would just as soon put them in the national league again and a rivalry or interest outside that city would be slim + see above.

-NBA- Vancouver again? Sure. I guess there's people that would go. I know the only Raptors game I had an interest in were the Naismith cup.

-NHL- Always and forever with this. Talked to death. A poorer hockey nation with far more interest in the game but unless the cities keep turning profits all the hockey love in the nation won't keep them here

-CFL- By far the league that could change the most and because of it is the most interesting to me:

*If there was a change in perspective to look at our modest gridiron league with a different standard and celebrate its differences rather than pander for as much runoff talent as possible from the NFL but moreso the NCAA it could be a very different league with a very different future.
It would take the bravery to make it an all Canadian league and stop trying to spend more. It's never going to compete with the NFL again so make it more of a local league. When it began it was far more like the start of Football Associations in Europe with MANY teams in metropolitan areas. Local cross town rivals in Toronto and Montreal.

I know this won't be a popular idea that gets very far but I'd love to see cheaper teams in the CFL so as to get the team number back to double digits and see the return of Canadian quarterbacks.

http://www.sportshall.ca/wp-content/themes/cshoftheme/images/original/X981.700.1.3_u.jpg

My local- The Balmy Beach

Carefree
08-24-2012, 12:36 PM
A spinoff thread...

If there were 6 more cities to support pro clubs, would you want TFC/VWFC/IMFC to fuck off from MLS and form a top tier Canadian league?

The only way a Canadian league would work is if we significantly improve the calibre of homegrown talent. Sadly, that's at least a 20-year commitment, and North-American sports business people aren't known for their long-term vision. The CFL is an anomaly in our sports landscape; if we tried to follow the same formula with a Canadian soccer league, by essentially relying on American or foreign players, we would never get any top talents here and our league would always look like little league next to the U.S.' MLS. If you start teams in Calgary, Hamilton, Halifax, etc. tomorrow with second-rate players, nobody will follow them.


Grow the sport first (by convincing kids to keep playing soccer past their 12th birthday) and then think about starting a top-tier league.

ag futbol
08-24-2012, 01:13 PM
-They can't sell out 55K the Bills, who are the most popular team in the GTA.

Let's not kid ourselves here, the reason for that is obvious. the ticket pricing for the initial games was beyond horrendous. You can get a limo to buffalo with tickets & tailgate for less than it costs you to go the game with friends in Toronto. Personally, I'd count myself as an NFL fan but not a bills fan. I'd change my tune about going to games if it was Toronto's team, but a one-off bils game isn't that appealing. Would definitely get season tickets. Of the bills fans I knew, more were attending games in buffalo during the season than in toronto. The whole appeal and game day experience simply didn't exist at rogers centre.

The Canada stuff you mentioned as well ... not that it isn't a factor, but my god people love to use stuff like that as a crutch. Did the Jays and the Expos both fielded good teams back in the day and we worried about that kind of logic a lot less. If you run a proper franchise, it's not going to be an obstacle. If you run a shit show like MLSE does, it's just one more reason to take a pass.

Oldtimer
08-24-2012, 01:17 PM
The only way a Canadian league would work is if we significantly improve the calibre of homegrown talent. Sadly, that's at least a 20-year commitment, and North-American sports business people aren't known for their long-term vision. The CFL is an anomaly in our sports landscape; if we tried to follow the same formula with a Canadian soccer league, by essentially relying on American or foreign players, we would never get any top talents here and our league would always look like little league next to the U.S.' MLS. If you start teams in Calgary, Hamilton, Halifax, etc. tomorrow with second-rate players, nobody will follow them.


Grow the sport first (by convincing kids to keep playing soccer past their 12th birthday) and then think about starting a top-tier league.

The CSA looked intensively at the idea of a Canadian Soccer League for D-2, and decided it was a non-starter. They are looking at regional D-4 leagues like the CSL to provide local teams.

Oldtimer
08-24-2012, 01:19 PM
Most people don't realize that 30% of the country watches the Grey Cup, or that they do viewship in the millions for many games. It's part of our heritage and means a great deal to the communities where the teams are (minus Toronto).

Many Torontonians I know, have this "lolz CFL is stupid with its rouges and amateur athletes, just fold it" mentality. Yeah, lets just dismiss a 100 year old league that was just as important to building our country as hockey teams were in the early stages of the NHL.

Off topic, but the CFL is very big pretty much everywhere except Toronto.

MLS is only big in the cities where there are teams.

Hockey is huge everywhere.

james
08-24-2012, 01:28 PM
maybe, but i do not think the league should have more then 20 teams. Only solution is create a 2nd tier league, but i don't think the league would be willing to make a risky relgeation system.

ryan
08-24-2012, 01:52 PM
Let's not kid ourselves here, the reason for that is obvious. the ticket pricing for the initial games was beyond horrendous. You can get a limo to buffalo with tickets & tailgate for less than it costs you to go the game with friends in Toronto. Personally, I'd count myself as an NFL fan but not a bills fan. I'd change my tune about going to games if it was Toronto's team, but a one-off bils game isn't that appealing. Would definitely get season tickets. Of the bills fans I knew, more were attending games in buffalo during the season than in toronto. The whole appeal and game day experience simply didn't exist at rogers centre.

The Canada stuff you mentioned as well ... not that it isn't a factor, but my god people love to use stuff like that as a crutch. Did the Jays and the Expos both fielded good teams back in the day and we worried about that kind of logic a lot less. If you run a proper franchise, it's not going to be an obstacle. If you run a shit show like MLSE does, it's just one more reason to take a pass.

Yeah, but do you think an owner who needs to front a ton of coin to get a club here and have a new park built, will have cheaper tickets than that? Not likely.

The NFL will have an issue, because they want Buffalo to stay and Toronto is 1/3 of Buffalo's fans. A team in Toronto kills Buffalo IMO.


Off topic, but the CFL is very big pretty much everywhere except Toronto.



Don't need to tell me that, see 5 posts above for 2 examples of the typical Torontonians who have zero clue.

kodiakTFC
08-24-2012, 02:46 PM
Off topic, but the CFL is very big pretty much everywhere except Toronto.

MLS is only big in the cities where there are teams.

Hockey is huge everywhere.

This is spot on. People in Toronto like to think that the CFL isn't popular in Canada but in reality it is. Look at the attendance numbers and ratings on TSN, they are very strong.

Yeoman
08-24-2012, 05:22 PM
What the author missed is that MLS will have merged with the J-League and A-League by then to form the Intercontinental League, which will be made practical by the advent of virtual reality game synthesizers (players won't need to be in the same place, to play), and hypersonic flight.

i could only think of wrestling with tables and chairs for some reason here
back to your discussion people!
also #cfltolondon

Oldtimer
08-24-2012, 06:03 PM
Don't need to tell me that, see 5 posts above for 2 examples of the typical Torontonians who have zero clue.

I'm not correcting you, just expanding your argument.

JavierMartini
08-24-2012, 06:50 PM
How about we talk about a toronto league!?. A league with teams in prevolent communities of the city. Greektown, little italy, jamaica hill, and some just outside the city. The csa completly fails with ethnic teams. We need canadian teams, that come from specific communties. With good marketing and a reasonable low price point people would come out. In all honesty it would need to be a merger of saac and local youth clubs in toronto to work.

jloome
08-24-2012, 06:53 PM
What the author missed is that MLS will have merged with the J-League and A-League by then to form the Intercontinental League, which will be made practical by the advent of virtual reality game synthesizers (players won't need to be in the same place, to play), and hypersonic flight.

I know you kid, but that VR idea might not be far off the mark.

jloome
08-24-2012, 06:55 PM
Canada could easily support its own pro league, of better quality than MLS, and make money.

All we need is the government to kick in between $200 million and $600 million to build the requisite stadiums.

Er.....

Really, the infrastructure is the barrier, as it has to be of "professional quality" before the second gen euro kids will buy in. But soccer's huge in Canada. If we can support the CFL on a $4.7M salary cap, we can sure as hell support a Canadian soccer league on a $2.5M cap, if it's done right.

THat latter part, "if it's done right," is the real impediment in the sports biz, unfortunately. It attracts predatory hucksters like flies to a corpse.

ag futbol
08-24-2012, 07:54 PM
Yeah, but do you think an owner who needs to front a ton of coin to get a club here and have a new park built, will have cheaper tickets than that? Not likely.

The NFL will have an issue, because they want Buffalo to stay and Toronto is 1/3 of Buffalo's fans. A team in Toronto kills Buffalo IMO.

Most likely not (on the seat prices), but thats a different proposition altogether.

Dont disagree that any proposition to move the bills is problematic, but even if they stay put the team has issues. The area has been suffering economically for years, Ralph Wilson s family will face a huge tax burden to keep the club. If its a one or the other type scenario, Toronto nets the league a lot more money. They ve had their eye on going international for a while... just been a little gun shy.

Redcoe15
08-24-2012, 08:21 PM
The big problem when it comes to putting an NFL team in Toronto is where's the television money in this country going to come from that will justify the existance of such a team? And will the big U.S. networks that shill out billions of dollars for NFL rights go along with such an idea?

TFC07
08-24-2012, 09:41 PM
Canada needs to form it's own first division soccer league. There isn't much competition when comes to sports in Canada compare to USA. CFL is doing well because a lot of Canadian cities don't have other first division professional sport teams in their cities during the summer time. So market to make money is there especially now that a lot of Canadian cities are growing (both in population and wealth).

Beach_Red
08-24-2012, 10:00 PM
Most likely not (on the seat prices), but thats a different proposition altogether.

Dont disagree that any proposition to move the bills is problematic, but even if they stay put the team has issues. The area has been suffering economically for years, Ralph Wilson s family will face a huge tax burden to keep the club. If its a one or the other type scenario, Toronto nets the league a lot more money. They ve had their eye on going international for a while... just been a little gun shy.

If the Bills go anywhere it'll be LA. But again, it comes down to ownership. There simply is no billionaire to put up the money for the NFL and the league won't accept corporate ownership (not that Bell and Rogers would combine to spend that kind of money on an NFL team when they already have the TV rights to the whole league).

nonc
08-24-2012, 10:07 PM
Regina will make a dent in the modern pro soccer scene long before Calgary. Two top clubs in Alberta seems pretty off-base.

OgtheDim
08-24-2012, 10:48 PM
Without getting into it too deeply.

The CFL does well among select groups of fans outside of Toronto and Vancouver. Montreal has yet to be tested with a lousy team since the Als came back.

The NFL is not coming to Toronto as the Bills experiment has failed miserably. There were at least 2 articles during the Super Bowl week which pretty much indicated that the NFL is ticked at Rogers and sees no real future here. Now if some person wants to pony up 1.5 billion for a team and 1.5 billion for a new stadium, that might get the NFL's attention.

But, right now, I'm guessing London is the probable overseas market team (they should be going after Brazil as the UK economy is tanking slowly but...)

nonc
08-24-2012, 10:54 PM
Without getting into it too deeply.

The CFL does well among select groups of fans outside of Toronto and Vancouver. Montreal has yet to be tested with a lousy team since the Als came back.

The NFL is not coming to Toronto as the Bills experiment has failed miserably. There were at least 2 articles during the Super Bowl week which pretty much indicated that the NFL is ticked at Rogers and sees no real future here. Now if some person wants to pony up 1.5 billion for a team and 1.5 billion for a new stadium, that might get the NFL's attention.

But, right now, I'm guessing London is the probable overseas market team (they should be going after Brazil as the UK economy is tanking slowly but...)

I would love to see Rogers buy a Brazilian Serie A or Bundesliga 2 club, that would be too good.

OgtheDim
08-24-2012, 11:20 PM
Rogers whole ethos is integration. Brazil or Bundesliga doesn't help them.

TD or BMO on the other hand....

habstfc
08-24-2012, 11:40 PM
No 70-80,000 seat stadium=no nfl team.

Fort York Redcoat
08-25-2012, 09:18 AM
How about we talk about a toronto league!?. A league with teams in prevolent communities of the city. Greektown, little italy, jamaica hill, and some just outside the city. The csa completly fails with ethnic teams. We need canadian teams, that come from specific communties. With good marketing and a reasonable low price point people would come out. In all honesty it would need to be a merger of saac and local youth clubs in toronto to work.


The CSA? The CSL fails with ethnic teams in my eyes. I was happy to see SC Toronto leaving behind a limiting ethnic barrier. Yes, it becomes a barrier for growth when you put your faith in an ethnicity carrying the weight of the support. There are some teams that have the history and tradition that shouldn't be lost and should be celebrated but for growth past the, what, 50 to 250 people that get to CSL matches we need to have a national league celebrating cities or communities PAST ethnicity.

The Caribbean Selects were a recent edition that didn't last too long in the league.

james
08-25-2012, 12:41 PM
How about we talk about a toronto league!?. A league with teams in prevolent communities of the city. Greektown, little italy, jamaica hill, and some just outside the city. The csa completly fails with ethnic teams. We need canadian teams, that come from specific communties. With good marketing and a reasonable low price point people would come out. In all honesty it would need to be a merger of saac and local youth clubs in toronto to work.

we already kind of have a Toronto league with CSL, we have Toronto Croatia, serbian white eagles, Toronto 2, SC Toronto, Missasuaga Eagles, i think we have more then enough teams already in the Toronto area in that league and it just doesn't draw fans. I don't know how having little Italy and little Greektown would inprove the league!

james
08-25-2012, 12:56 PM
CFL is big in some canadian cities, its seems it is least popular in the Toronto area. But that said we do have 2 teams in Southern Ontario, Hamilton and Toronto. Last year Hamilton averaged 23,676 fans a game and Toronto 20,018...now if we only had 1 team in this area the attendence might not look so bad. Other cities in CFL average between 24,000 and 35,000 fans a game. But they also only have 1 team to support. If Toronto had 1 team would Toronto actually average more like 30-40,000 fans a game?? or would Hamilton or Toronto fans just not follow CFL if there city for example didn't have a team??

TOBOR !
08-26-2012, 09:18 AM
this is awesome. It's three threads in one.

On topic, I'd say soccer in general will be much more popular by 2035, and we may well have a Canadian league by then.

Not to mention that most of the major leagues will have pissed off it's consumer / fan base to no end, and they may turn to a sport / league espousing MLS values.

Cashcleaner
08-28-2012, 12:47 AM
Canada could easily support its own pro league, of better quality than MLS, and make money.

All we need is the government to kick in between $200 million and $600 million to build the requisite stadiums.

Er.....

Really, the infrastructure is the barrier, as it has to be of "professional quality" before the second gen euro kids will buy in. But soccer's huge in Canada. If we can support the CFL on a $4.7M salary cap, we can sure as hell support a Canadian soccer league on a $2.5M cap, if it's done right.

THat latter part, "if it's done right," is the real impediment in the sports biz, unfortunately. It attracts predatory hucksters like flies to a corpse.

I think a Canadian Domestic League could actually do quite well if we emulated a traditional organizational structured. That is to say operate with a single table, have a balanced home and away schedule, and introduced a better league cup competition. You know, basically do all the stuff that MLS refuses to. The only problem is that MLS won't be outdone on this continent and the league will go all-out on spending to drain our players away.

Fort York Redcoat
08-28-2012, 06:23 AM
I think a Canadian Domestic League could actually do quite well if we emulated a traditional organizational structured. That is to say operate with a single table, have a balanced home and away schedule, and introduced a better league cup competition. You know, basically do all the stuff that MLS refuses to. The only problem is that MLS won't be outdone on this continent and the league will go all-out on spending to drain our players away.

One thing that would combat the player drain is the fact that with a direct pipeline from Academy to local CSL clubs the next options for kids would still remain jump to NCAA or stay in Canada to hop to Europe. That "education vs taking the sport seriously" question would have an even greater highlight under it.

Oldtimer
08-28-2012, 07:17 AM
If there is a Canadian league, it will be a D-2 league. I don't see MLS being replaced anytime soon. That in itself will not be bad... it would be a great place to develop up-and-coming Canadian talent. Ultimately, you still want the core of your NT playing in Europe's top leagues. That's what will make Canada a decent competitor come WC time.

Beach_Red
08-28-2012, 08:24 AM
Maybe we need some supply-side economics here. If investment in a sports team was tax deductable, the way it was for movies back in the 80s, then maybe more than just Bell and Rogers would want to own teams.

C.Ronaldo
08-28-2012, 08:46 AM
off topic from TFC but

I would die. A 14-16 team CFL? *droolssssssssss*

Agreed, a larger CFL is needed. I dont watch much football but enjoy the rules of the CFL much more than NFL but just cant take a league with only 8 teams seriously

Fort York Redcoat
08-28-2012, 09:34 AM
If Canada is "ripe" for expansion then Canada is better off having it's own league. But it's not.

I agree with Oldtimer if Canada were to ever get a national league it would be at the D-2 level, based on two regions, West and East to minimize travel.

Only way I can see a D1 league in Canada in the future is if there are multiple teams in big cities like Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and I don't see the day where there are 3-4 50,000 seat soccer stadiums in each city.

50k?

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/353/279/e31.jpg


This is what I was touching on previously concerning lowered expectations if we want to see growth occur. It has to conservative to be assured.

Start with what we already have in CSL and PCSL. If we could get them to agree on the colour of the sky and have a cross country final that grew to a playoff system, adding teams here and there but keep the stadia we have. With time it'll grow slowly but this sport can be so precarious at any level above div3.

I don't think it "pie in the sky" to predict attention from new areas/ownerships that could invest far less than MLS prices to show a good local product. It would take the lure of at least national attention with a playoff/final opportunity, though.

Beach_Red
08-28-2012, 09:47 AM
LOL... fine I don't see the day when there are 3-4 20-30k seat stadiums in one Canadian city for soccer only.

Yes, Canada has never had much middle ground. We don't have well-attended college games or AHL or anything but 'major' leagues. Maybe the CFL is a good model of a Canadian league, but it seems unlikely to work for something new without all that history.

Fort York Redcoat
08-28-2012, 09:51 AM
Can I get 3-4 local stadia at a capacity of 10k?....Going, going...


http://mikebrandlyauctioneer.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/auctioneer.jpg


haha

It's times like these though that if the CSL were national plenty would turn away from the struggling MLS team and pay $10 to see the local team for a day out.

Beach_Red
08-28-2012, 10:08 AM
Can I get 3-4 local stadia at a capacity of 10k?....Going, going...


http://mikebrandlyauctioneer.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/auctioneer.jpg


haha

It's times like these though that if the CSL were national plenty would turn away from the struggling MLS team and pay $10 to see the local team for a day out.

What makes you say that? What do you mean by 'plenty?'

This may be where the biggest diffence between the USA and Europe shows up in sports. The 'local team' in the US would be a college team (or even high school) and gets plenty of attendance. Canada, for some weird historical reason (probably) is somewhere in between - college teams have never resonated beyond campus (and only ever been a small factor there) and minor league teams (farm teams, academies, whatever you want to call them) don't attract much attention.

Fort York Redcoat
08-28-2012, 11:49 AM
What makes you say that? What do you mean by 'plenty?'

This may be where the biggest diffence between the USA and Europe shows up in sports. The 'local team' in the US would be a college team (or even high school) and gets plenty of attendance. Canada, for some weird historical reason (probably) is somewhere in between - college teams have never resonated beyond campus (and only ever been a small factor there) and minor league teams (farm teams, academies, whatever you want to call them) don't attract much attention.

And here's another example of what I go on about- The constant comparison to our neighbours. It's not a comparison that I resent but that so many Canadians feel inferior about it. This is why so many Canadian Sports fans are "Top tier or bust". It would take a change of perspective to be okay with what "plenty" is.

To start, it wouldn't be an impressive number but if it were a vocal minority it would be a big change to the ground/atmosphere.

Isn't the big difference we're talking about between us and our neighbours to do with our school systems? Here it's more on the government and people's taxes with a focus on education whereas the US has sports heavy funding that the community gets heavily involved outside of government etc.

e.g. bake sale/car wash/50/50 $$$ for the football team?

Beach_Red
08-28-2012, 12:21 PM
And here's another example of what I go on about- The constant comparison to our neighbours. It's not a comparison that I resent but that so many Canadians feel inferior about it. This is why so many Canadian Sports fans are "Top tier or bust". It would take a change of perspective to be okay with what "plenty" is.

To start, it wouldn't be an impressive number but if it were a vocal minority it would be a big change to the ground/atmosphere.

Isn't the big difference we're talking about between us and our neighbours to do with our school systems? Here it's more on the government and people's taxes with a focus on education whereas the US has sports heavy funding that the community gets heavily involved outside of government etc.

e.g. bake sale/car wash/50/50 $$$ for the football team?

This wasn't meant to be a comparison with the US, it was meant to show that Canada is caught between two systems - the US and the UK (or European in general). We have a history that's been influenced, that's all.

It may not still be true, but a few decades ago Canada had higher sports participation numbers, per capita, than the US but lower sports watching numbers. Participaction and all that British "amateur association" stuff.

Pro sports are a big business like Hollywood or the auto industry - and Canada doesn't really have much indigenous involvement in those industries. It may be because of the market conditions or it may be because of the lack of investment from the private sector.

bones
08-28-2012, 01:33 PM
Can I get 3-4 local stadia at a capacity of 10k?....Going, going...





haha

It's times like these though that if the CSL were national plenty would turn away from the struggling MLS team and pay $10 to see the local team for a day out.

Can I get my fucking $5 beer there? Seriously! Then I'm in!

james
08-28-2012, 04:18 PM
Can I get my fucking $5 beer there? Seriously! Then I'm in!

i went to see Anderlecht from Belgium play back in January....was 3 euros a beer in the stadium ($3.69 canadian, not a pint size but still), and you get 1 euro back if you bring the plastic cup with the Andelecht crest on it back to the bar. Outside the stadium there is many little pubs, you can fight the crowd as the pubs are a tight squeeze to make your way through and get a glass costing 3-4-5-6 euros depends what beer selection you buy (beers in belgium it is pretty normal to be 6-9% strong from small glasses to massive glass size) or again you can buy a beer off a street vendor (you have small selection of maybe 2 beers) just outside the pubs and again 3 euros a beer, 1 euro back if you bring the cup back. Sure beats $13 a beer tho. And you can drink right in front of the stadium before kickoff!!!

Crystal Palace in England, At half time I got 2 bottles of carling i think i paid 3 pounds a bottle($4.60 canadian, the line up rush sucked tho given you less then 5 minutes to down both). How can stadiums in Canada even charge what they do, should be illegal!

james
08-29-2012, 03:22 AM
If Canada is "ripe" for expansion then Canada is better off having it's own league. But it's not.

I agree with Oldtimer if Canada were to ever get a national league it would be at the D-2 level, based on two regions, West and East to minimize travel.

Only way I can see a D1 league in Canada in the future is if there are multiple teams in big cities like Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and I don't see the day where there are 3-4 50,000 seat soccer stadiums in each city.

why would you need 3-4 50,000 seat stadiums in each city??? no city in Europe even has that. You could have 1 team or maybe 2 teams for derby match. And they could be small 5,000 or 10,000 or 15,000 seat stadiums or 2 stadiums with 20,000 would be a dream but unlikely. But 50k??

Mulder
08-29-2012, 06:42 AM
Agreed, a larger CFL is needed. I dont watch much football but enjoy the rules of the CFL much more than NFL but just cant take a league with only 8 teams seriously

My argument against this as always been.
The US population is 10x that of Canada's. So why doesn't the US / NFL have 80 NFL teams?

Fort York Redcoat
08-29-2012, 06:52 AM
My argument against this as always been.
The US population is 10x that of Canada's. So why doesn't the US / NFL have 80 NFL teams?

Because a league doesn't need that many teams. AND the US *do* have more than 80 teams they follow with more fans in attendance than any CFL team in the NCAA (where the talent is comparable as well).

Your thoughts Mulder? (honest discussion request. NOT trolling, my CFL expert, friend.:) )

glaze
08-29-2012, 10:07 AM
Crystal Palace in England, At half time I got 2 bottles of carling i think i paid 3 pounds a bottle($4.60 canadian, the line up rush sucked tho given you less then 5 minutes to down both). How can stadiums in Canada even charge what they do, should be illegal!

was in Detroit to see the Jays/Tigers game last week. The bar across the street from the left field gate had 4 dollar cans (miller lite, blue, bud light, etc), get inside the stadium, and miller lite was 7.75, or you could get a can of "value beer" PBR/High life, for 5 bucks.

I know our beer is taxed much more here, but the 400% markup on a can of carlsberg is kinda ridiculous. Not to mention the nearby pubs such as the brazen head charging their inflated prices at all times.

On one hand this city passes off products such as the argos and TFC as minor league, but even for minor league teams such as the marlies, there has never been a move by ownsership to recognize that and charge minor league prices and create a fan friendly minor league atmosphere you see in places like the states.

Mulder
08-29-2012, 11:36 AM
Because a league doesn't need that many teams. AND the US *do* have more than 80 teams they follow with more fans in attendance than any CFL team in the NCAA (where the talent is comparable as well).

Your thoughts Mulder? (honest discussion request. NOT trolling, my CFL expert, friend.:) )

I understand, NCAA is not the 'top' league however, And that's what I use to compare, and typically what other people use to compare. (NFL has 32, CFL has 8) etc.
We have about the same proportion of CIS teams I'm going to assume, and the following isn't terrible in some markets here.

Fort York Redcoat
08-29-2012, 11:48 AM
I understand, NCAA is not the 'top' league however, And that's what I use to compare, and typically what other people use to compare. (NFL has 32, CFL has 8) etc.
We have about the same proportion of CIS teams I'm going to assume, and the following isn't terrible in some markets here.

The proportions are somewhat lopsided (27 CIS to 120 NCAA) but I think the true difference is attendance in those 120 NCAA even proportionately, is staggering.

I'm glad there's still Canadian Gridiron fans happy with our little league here. I'm sure we all agree we wish it was more, though.

C.Ronaldo
08-29-2012, 12:10 PM
by that argument, the CFL then should have two/3 teams in the GTA.

fact is, the league doesnt represent enough of Canada. It would succeed very well with many teams of smaller (15-20k) stadiums

hamilton is a good example of what could be put together in Halifax, Quebec, Barrie, and other smaller cities around the conutry



My argument against this as always been.
The US population is 10x that of Canada's. So why doesn't the US / NFL have 80 NFL teams?

Fort York Redcoat
08-29-2012, 12:14 PM
by that argument, the CFL then should have two/3 teams in the GTA.

fact is, the league doesnt represent enough of Canada. It would succeed very well with many teams of smaller (15-20k) stadiums

hamilton is a good example of what could be put together in Halifax, Quebec, Barrie, and other smaller cities around the conutry

Ew. Barrie? g:D


Bring back the Balmy Beach and the Sarnia Imperials!!

Redcoe15
08-29-2012, 04:46 PM
Bring back the Balmy Beach and the Sarnia Imperials!!
The Imps have been back for a while now.

http://www.sarniasports.com/advertisors/Sponsorlogos/SarniaImperials.jpg

http://www.eteamz.com/thesarniaimperials/

james
08-29-2012, 05:25 PM
I've already clarified that I over estimated but a number of cities around the world have 2 or more 40,000 stadiums. Buenos Aires leading the way with 5 stadiums with a capacity of over 40,000. Glasgow, Istanbul, London and Lima have 3 over 50,000.

Still if you look at most 1st division leagues around the world, you're not playing in 5,000 seat stadiums. You're still looking at 20,000+.

And the way Canada's population is dispersed you would need say 10 such stadiums and odds are there would be 2-3 in big cities, especially if you had a promotion/relegation system, or whatever hotbed cities there existed. Or having a number of stadiums in one particular area, for example having 5-6 20,000 seat stadiums in southern Ontario, outside of Toronto. (ie London, Kitchener, Mississauga, Hamilton, Burlington, Oakville, etc.) Look at other countries where population is concentrated in certain areas.

Point being you would need the infrastructure to do so in Canada. You could pull it off using CFL stadiums but that would mean playing on plastic. Do you do that or get soccer specific stadiums built? Does the CFL die and you convert those stadiums into soccer stadiums?

London doe's Not have 3 stadiums over 50,000 in football. Arsenal is the only club over 50,000 (they have 60,000). Wembley is 90,000 but its the national stadium. Glasogow Rangers and Cletic have 49k and 60k seats, 1 other stadium is the Scotland National Stadium (a lower divison club actually does play there called queens Park , they get maybe 1,000 fans a game in attendence). Lima yes big stadiums again tho, more often then not there stadiums are more then half empty.

In Argentiana for example. Yes there are 5 clubs with around 50,000 or more capacity. But half those teams only get 25,000 or even less fans a game actually in the stadium. So maybe the stadiums don't need to be that big. Cities like London and Buneous airies are not the best example anyway, they have more teams then any other cities in the world. These cities are the biggest hot beds of football teams in the world. And they both have metro populations of about 12 million people. Toronto Metro is about 5 million. Who says we need to be as big as these 2 cities and have as many clubs as they do?? In Glassgow and Instanbull yes they both have 2 big clubs in there cities, but they are also the biggest clubs in there leagues. No other city in these leagues have 2 clubs nearly as big. Scotland for example there 2nd biggest city Edinburgh has 2 clubs, hearts and Hibs and both there stadiums are 20k and 18k, and average both under 14k average attendence, so you see they are not nearly as big.

England, Germany, Spain and Italy are the biggest leagues (most there clubs in 1st divison are pretty big stadiums but even then there is still teams in Italy for example in 1st divison with under 10k seat stadium or spain, england and Germany there are often plenty of clubs under 20k capacity, and these are the biggest leagues in the world) in other countires there are plenty of teams playing in less then 10k seat stadiums or at least stadiums being more then half empty. So do you really always need so many big stadiums???? you can also share the national stadium with a club, they don't need there own stadium like they do in Glasgow and London, some countries already share stadiums.

nonc
08-29-2012, 08:13 PM
I don't think Canada is as far away from being able to have a national league as people think. It could definitely happen by 2020. There will probably be at least two organizations developed not long after Ottawa 2014, who could join Ottawa, Edmonton, Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, and an expansion team for an eight team league expanding to ten shortly thereafter. current CSL could become a second division. PCSL and PDL could be third divisions. The teams, interest, and infrastructure will be there it's just a matter of if CSA can be bothered to spearhead it.

jloome
08-29-2012, 08:28 PM
if we want to see growth occur. It has to conservative to be assured.

Have to disagree. Modern fans are too sophisticated for a 'grow from the grassroots' league to survive. They expect our country to compete on an international scale, and if other nations of 30 million can have quality pro leagues, so can we. That's the customer mentality, I believe, and the customer rules.

The impediment is infrastructure, not maturity of the marketplace. Starting from the grassroots plays to that "minor league" sense that Canadians eschew, probably in part due to fear of being seen as inferior to the dopes down south. We support junior hockey, because it's amateur, but even AHL teams have routinely had trouble surviving in small Canadian cities. CFL, on the other hand, by defining itself as a different sport from the American game, is seen by a lot of Canadians as the best of its type.

People watch Euro soccer by the thousands on TSN, and if you put a squad of internationally competitive players in medium-sized (10,000 -20,000) stadiums across Canada and started a real inter-city rivalry it could do very well.

But the groundwork for that is massive, notably because of the infrastructure, and the requirement of developing community business models that take those costs into account, in the long-term. Otherwise it would probably have happened already.

The grassroots has been tried again and again, but it's just not at a competent enough level of entertainment to draw the public in and it certainly won't generate the kind of corporate sponsor and exposure buy-in required for long-term success.

Fort York Redcoat
08-29-2012, 08:52 PM
^I'd take the growth either way j but I just can't see where the big investments that aren't Bogers are coming from.

james
08-29-2012, 09:23 PM
Have to disagree. Modern fans are too sophisticated for a 'grow from the grassroots' league to survive. They expect our country to compete on an international scale, and if other nations of 30 million can have quality pro leagues, so can we. That's the customer mentality, I believe, and the customer rules.

The impediment is infrastructure, not maturity of the marketplace. Starting from the grassroots plays to that "minor league" sense that Canadians eschew, probably in part due to fear of being seen as inferior to the dopes down south. We support junior hockey, because it's amateur, but even AHL teams have routinely had trouble surviving in small Canadian cities. CFL, on the other hand, by defining itself as a different sport from the American game, is seen by a lot of Canadians as the best of its type.

People watch Euro soccer by the thousands on TSN, and if you put a squad of internationally competitive players in medium-sized (10,000 -20,000) stadiums across Canada and started a real inter-city rivalry it could do very well.

But the groundwork for that is massive, notably because of the infrastructure, and the requirement of developing community business models that take those costs into account, in the long-term. Otherwise it would probably have happened already.

The grassroots has been tried again and again, but it's just not at a competent enough level of entertainment to draw the public in and it certainly won't generate the kind of corporate sponsor and exposure buy-in required for long-term success.

i agree, the population is there in Canada, we have about 34million now and growing, many countries in europe are smaller in population. But the vast land area in this country is a bit of a set back. You do not need to have 40 or 50,000 seat stadiums. You can have clubs in Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City, Toronto, Hamilton, maybe even Windsor or London, Saskatoon or Halifax. All these cities are over 200,000 people and Regina is smaller then 200,000 and supports a CFL team averaging 27k attendence, so these cities supporting a team is not as crazy as it may sound. And its not like NHL or NBA where all teams have to roughly be the same size. A big club could be 20k stadium, small club could have 10k stadium. you could get 12 clubs in Canada to get a 1 league table going. Biggest issue tho and the main reason i never think it will work is 1) we already now have 3 teams in MLS, they will not want to seperate from it as MLS are ahead with TV deals and profits and are starting to grow as a league now 2) whos going to pay for and build these new stadiums across the country that we would need? 3) is there any owners who want to own any teams in Canada and who has the money to support a team?...These are the big issues that i think are to big to over come to ever get a league like this going.

Mulder
08-30-2012, 06:40 AM
by that argument, the CFL then should have two/3 teams in the GTA.

fact is, the league doesnt represent enough of Canada. It would succeed very well with many teams of smaller (15-20k) stadiums

hamilton is a good example of what could be put together in Halifax, Quebec, Barrie, and other smaller cities around the conutry

I honestly think this would be the way to go in regards to expansion, 18k-20k seating. A step backward, but moving forward. Western cities will still get their 30k+ , but give expansion cities (Halifax, Moncton, Quebec City etcc) room to market and grow their product. Toronto would also do well to get out of a stadium designed by someone who had never been to a sporting event, and into a 25-27k seater, where you are not looking at the back of someones head.

The huge problem with expansion, is the Canadian talent, the report doesn't go into it, but with half your roster being Canadian (and 7 starters) you'll run into some pretty bad Canadian players getting a job. But it's not like that doesn't already happen in the NHL.