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ryan
08-22-2012, 06:17 PM
I've always wondered if this could work (not sure if this should go in the other section, it's not news, just a random blabbering from me so...)


MLS grows to 20 clubs, announces they are going to split 10/10. Top 10 stay in MLS-1 and bottom 10 go to MLS-2.

Following season setup is:

All teams play each other 2x, for 38 matches.

OR

All teams play each of their league opponent 3x for 27 matches.
All teams play the other league opponent 1x for 9 matches.


This way you still get to play everyone, you still get your "Beckham" or "Henry" or "Boyd" game or whatever the fuck.


Then you have a 6 team playoff (NFL Style) in MLS 1 for the Championship, and a 4 team promotion playoff (Seeds 3-6) in MLS-2 for 1 promotion spot (Seeds 1 and 2 auto promote). 3 up and 3 down.



Seems like the biggest issue around promo/relegation with MLS is that teams would refuse to drop down to a USL or NASL...so why not make two levels within yourself? Then maintain a schedule that still sees all MLS clubs, so you can't complain about not getting to play X club.

Of course with the 2nd of my 2 suggested schedules, you'd get more matches vs those "Top Old Man Player" clubs in the top flight, so then clubs like us would actually have to do something about being a bottom feeder cause being MLS-1 would be more lucrative.


In the end, I see it generating more interest for MLS. The drama of going up and down, having a Championship playoff, a promotion playoff. Most teams have something to play for right up until the end of the year, as opposed to now where 6+ clubs can already pack it in with 10+ matches remaining.

MLS is struggling on TV, why not add more dramatic matches? Add a setup that's more familiar to soccer fans over here? Be more like a pro soccer league?

flatpicker
08-22-2012, 06:36 PM
Well, the Don would never let this happen.
But for the sake of argument...

I don't think you would need to split the league in half.
Why not just merge lower leagues (NASL, USL) and call them MLS 2, MLS 3, etc.?
Maintain a degree of revenue sharing or whatever.

But really, I have no idea how this would ever work in NA.
It would be exciting, no doubt.
Just can't see a business model put forward that franchise owners would actually agree with.

narduch
08-22-2012, 07:18 PM
There's a better chance of relegation ending in Europe's top leagues than there is of it ever being implemented here.

Oldtimer
08-22-2012, 09:19 PM
Don Garber and the owners have already said it will never happen, so there's little point discussing it further.

London
08-23-2012, 10:10 AM
after mls attendance drops way down, this will be the reason for no promotion system, it's all about the $$$$$$$

Fort York Redcoat
08-23-2012, 10:29 AM
I've eliminated this kind of dream from list of wants

I'll talk about again when we have one table...Maybe I'll wait till we eliminate the playoffs.

Till then.

Whoop
08-23-2012, 10:29 AM
^^

MLS is the 8th most attended soccer league in the world.

Unless there are bigger markets playing in the USL that usurp some teams in MLS, don't see it happening.

I think MLS one day can hit the Mexican figures.

http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/blogs-prod-photos/2/6/1/d/a/261dab21f5c61b8a352f342999295f0e.jpg?stmp=13454795 72

MartinUtd
08-23-2012, 10:32 AM
This is how it goes down: All TV contracts are torn up, the league loses the less financially stable teams and multiple law suits are filed from the franchise owners. Then in an attempt to reinvigorate the fan base the league reintroduces mandatory penalty kicks is the game if tied after 90 minutes. New York signs Ronaldo (from Brazil) and we witness the death of a pro league.

London
08-23-2012, 10:32 AM
^^^^ thats what i was thinking vic.


there are a few USL clubs that draw well but it's not the norm.


not gonna happen with teams bringing in less than 5000 fans and some bringing in 1000 on most nights

T-boy
08-23-2012, 10:48 AM
It would never happen. But it would sure help out TFC! Right now, TFC being bottom of the league, there is very little incentive to avoid the last place. In fact, there is actually a benefit to being last (you get first draft pick!). Whereas if you actually got relegated - there would be a MASSIVE incentive to play well at the end of the season and avoid relegation. The whole one-league thing doesn't create as much excitement as other leagues in the world. If you are at the top - its fantastic - but if you are at the bottom - who cares! Whereas in other leagues, the relegation fight is usually just as exciting as the fight at the top of the table. Wigan fans will vouch for that!

ryan
08-23-2012, 10:57 AM
I was really just trying to discuss is a plausible system could exist for MLS. USL/NASL were brought up, but we know they aren't looking to mix in with that crowd and they want to be playing each other. Hence why I thought if it could work within itself. Those other leagues can become the "Blue Square" and MLS can make it's own EPL through nPower2.


Butts in the seats don't mean much, they need TV numbers and aren't getting them. I doubt NBC is looking at another 10M per year deal when this once expires after 2014. Not when some matches have under 100K tuned in.

Fort York Redcoat
08-23-2012, 11:16 AM
I've always wondered if this could work (not sure if this should go in the other section, it's not news, just a random blabbering from me so...)


MLS grows to 20 clubs, announces they are going to split 10/10. Top 10 stay in MLS-1 and bottom 10 go to MLS-2.

Following season setup is:

All teams play each other 2x, for 38 matches.

OR

All teams play each of their league opponent 3x for 27 matches.
All teams play the other league opponent 1x for 9 matches.


This way you still get to play everyone, you still get your "Beckham" or "Henry" or "Boyd" game or whatever the fuck.


Then you have a 6 team playoff (NFL Style) in MLS 1 for the Championship, and a 4 team promotion playoff (Seeds 3-6) in MLS-2 for 1 promotion spot (Seeds 1 and 2 auto promote). 3 up and 3 down.



Seems like the biggest issue around promo/relegation with MLS is that teams would refuse to drop down to a USL or NASL...so why not make two levels within yourself? Then maintain a schedule that still sees all MLS clubs, so you can't complain about not getting to play X club.

Of course with the 2nd of my 2 suggested schedules, you'd get more matches vs those "Top Old Man Player" clubs in the top flight, so then clubs like us would actually have to do something about being a bottom feeder cause being MLS-1 would be more lucrative.


In the end, I see it generating more interest for MLS. The drama of going up and down, having a Championship playoff, a promotion playoff. Most teams have something to play for right up until the end of the year, as opposed to now where 6+ clubs can already pack it in with 10+ matches remaining.

MLS is struggling on TV, why not add more dramatic matches? Add a setup that's more familiar to soccer fans over here? Be more like a pro soccer league?

Ok I'll bite.

The schedule is flawed since you would only have one game against all teams. What if it was away? No Becks or Henry that year.

It's an idea I'd be for ryan but no team owner will want to take the chance of being League 2. It's not what they paid for.

ryan
08-23-2012, 11:18 AM
Ok I'll bite.

The schedule is flawed since you would only have one game against all teams. What if it was away? No Becks or Henry that year.

It's an idea I'd be for ryan but no team owner will want to take the chance of being League 2. It's not what they paid for.

So then go with the 2x vs all option. Fit in 38 matches. Just stand them Div 1 and 2 instead of East and West.

__wowza
08-23-2012, 11:22 AM
i'm going to post the same thing here that i did on bigsoccer (http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/something-to-read-before-you-gift-us-with-your-revolutionary-idea.1820555/#post-24348878) please note: any snarkiness you read is not directed towards you, i was just reading wayyyy too many "pro/reg" discussions..


the league was re-visioned under garber to avoid the pitfalls that claimed the original NASL. most of them can be examined through a financial magnifying glass, and many can still be overlooked because we're a young league and still in a state of flux. if you're going to bring up any of the following as both applicable and maintainable, please ask yourself these questions first:

no pro/reg system:
- how do you bring out fans to watch a second tier team?
- how do you get financial/corporate backing for a second tier team?
- with 3 teams in the major league turning a profit last year, how many teams do you expect to remain in the second tier that can remain financially viable?

not having an EPL schedule:
- how do you propose bringing fans/casuals out in the winter months?
- how do you propose competing with winter sports in relation to the recently signed television deal with NBC?
- what are your projections for attendances in the fall/winter months in relation to current summer/fall attendances? would they be better or worse?
- how much do you propose stadium upgrades would cost to winterize stadiums for fans?

abolishing the playoffs:
- what do you propose to replace the potential revenue playoffs bring to applicable teams?
- how do you attract fans when their team has been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs halfway/a third of the way through the season?
- how do you feel north americans (who are used to playoffs) would react to a sport with no post-season?

no/higher salary cap:
- how do you expect teams with lower budgets to remain competitive in the league against well-funded teams?
- how do you propose to overcome the potential ticket price increase that comes with a the larger roster salary?
- how do you overcome the gap left when lower budget teams ultimately lose fans (money at the gate) because they're unable to win due to roster/cost constraints?

a single table system:
- how do you propose rosters can overcome the fatigue of flying their team and staff as far as five hours away/back in a week for a match?
- how can teams help cover costs of potentially shipping their team/staff coast-to-coast?
- how many fans do you feel would come out to potentially support their club when the travel distances increase?




most of the ideas posted are naive at best, and ignorant (bordering on eurosnobbery) at worst. sure, many of us would love to see teams on a single table system with no playoffs and promotion/relegation looming. however, this isn't fiscally viable as evident by the NASL. every decision made (whether we like it or not) has been made to ensure that the league doesn't grow too fast, too quick. the leagues barely 15 years old and i've often seen it compared to leagues that have a 100 year head start on us. it isn't a fair comparison to make, so don't make it.

if anyone has any other questions they think would be relevant to the discussion of the leagues growth, i'd love to see them, but if you can't answer these questions when you're proposing your grand scheme to us, please don't bother posting at all. you might think you have a groundbreaking idea, but you might as well be posting under a thread titled "ways to ensure the league goes bankrupt".

Pookie
08-23-2012, 11:27 AM
Ok I'll bite.

The schedule is flawed since you would only have one game against all teams. What if it was away? No Becks or Henry that year.

It's an idea I'd be for ryan but no team owner will want to take the chance of being League 2. It's not what they paid for.

Just to give ryan's idea some legs, since the MLS has revenue sharing the owners might not care about going to League 2 if their revenues didn't decline. (ie. the league split the pot with League 1 and League 2 teams). Aside from designated player salaries or amounts above the league max, their expenses are somewhat minimal.

As long as they could still trot out meaningless friendlies and perhaps competition through either the V Cup or Open Cup, their home stadium revenues would stay fairly consistent. As for TV coverage, TFC makes a lot of money... despite not ever making the MLS playoffs and this ridiculous Standard Definition Goal TV set up we have (not all their fault mind you but they certainly aren't appealing to a mainstream audience). Some games (like CCL) aren't broadcast at all.

I know the will isn't there but making it work isn't that far from being possible.

Fort York Redcoat
08-23-2012, 11:46 AM
Just to give ryan's idea some legs, since the MLS has revenue sharing the owners might not care about going to League 2 if their revenues didn't decline. (ie. the league split the pot with League 1 and League 2 teams). Aside from designated player salaries or amounts above the league max, their expenses are somewhat minimal.

As long as they could still trot out meaningless friendlies and perhaps competition through either the V Cup or Open Cup, their home stadium revenues would stay fairly consistent. As for TV coverage, TFC makes a lot of money... despite not ever making the MLS playoffs and this ridiculous Standard Definition Goal TV set up we have (not all their fault mind you but they certainly aren't appealing to a mainstream audience). Some games (like CCL) aren't broadcast at all.

I know the will isn't there but making it work isn't that far from being possible.

From your lips to Don's ears.

(That sounds far grosser than intended)

Fort York Redcoat
08-23-2012, 11:58 AM
abolishing the playoffs:
- what do you propose to replace the potential revenue playoffs bring to applicable teams?
- how do you attract fans when their team has been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs halfway/a third of the way through the season?
- how do you feel north americans (who are used to playoffs) would react to a sport with no post-season?

no/higher salary cap:
- how do you expect teams with lower budgets to remain competitive in the league against well-funded teams?
- how do you propose to overcome the potential ticket price increase that comes with a the larger roster salary?
- how do you overcome the gap left when lower budget teams ultimately lose fans (money at the gate) because they're unable to win due to roster/cost constraints?

a single table system:
- how do you propose rosters can overcome the fatigue of flying their team and staff as far as five hours away/back in a week for a match?
- how can teams help cover costs of potentially shipping their team/staff coast-to-coast?
- how many fans do you feel would come out to potentially support their club when the travel distances increase?





These ideas are being played with and talked about every year and not just by we supporters.

The cap will grow if the league sticks around. I've got the patience for that but

Scheduling isn't that hard. Home and away has a lot more leeway if you have road trip "swings". And they are more attractive to fans traveling. I could see plenty of great stories coming from supporter vacations that hit 2 or 3 matches in 2 weeks like the west coast trip a couple seasons back. Of all the challenges we speak of in Eurosnobtown- this one is the least daunting.

Playoffs are like the cap. Dropping them will be a reward for supporters that know you can get the same satisfaction when there are other cup competitions.

/EPPgx2_y73M

T-boy
08-23-2012, 11:59 AM
In many ways we can't really call the game "football" Or the MLS a "football league". Trying to compare the MLS with other leagues, or suggesting pro/rel is just not going to happen. The MLS is SO different from nearly ALL other world football leagues wth its east and west conference, no promotion/relegation, the cap space, profit sharing, player ownership etc.

Forget that its football. The MLS should be a called a "soccerball league" or something. It's not a football league like any other. It's soccerball!

Beach_Red
08-23-2012, 12:03 PM
A promotion/relegation system might work here if there was a champions league worth playing in for the top few teams. Then that would get all the TV revenue and attention and the rest of the teams could all become minor-league feeder teams. If, say, NY, LA, Chicago and Dallas? or one other team could compete in the European champions league they'd get some decent TV numbers, lose the salary cap and domestic roster requirements.

Otherwise, as narduch pointed out, there's a better chance of the biggest Euro teams forming a superleague with no relegation than there is bringing it in here.

One place to look for the future of American leagues is the NCAA and what's going on there.

Fort York Redcoat
08-23-2012, 12:15 PM
One place to look for the future of American leagues is the NCAA and what's going on there.

What is going there? I don't follow NCAA.

Fort York Redcoat
08-23-2012, 12:18 PM
In many ways we can't really call the game "football" Or the MLS a "football league". Trying to compare the MLS with other leagues, or suggesting pro/rel is just not going to happen. The MLS is SO different from nearly ALL other world football leagues wth its east and west conference, no promotion/relegation, the cap space, profit sharing, player ownership etc.

Forget that its football. The MLS should be a called a "soccerball league" or something. It's not a football league like any other. It's soccerball!

Semantics. I'll call it football with some and soccer with a non-initiate.

I agree that it's very different and those differences can be celebrated as much as they are abhorred.

Richard
08-23-2012, 12:21 PM
I would like one single table, that is the best we can hope for i think. Maybe decades from now this will happen, it takes time for these "Radical" ideas to be even considered in NA.

Beach_Red
08-23-2012, 12:29 PM
What is going there? I don't follow NCAA.

Playoffs. And getting as many of the big teams into the same conference as possible. And the gap between big teams and the rest gets wider every year.

I used to think pro soccer had a bright future in the US but I'm less convinced now. When you look at the last half century of pro sports in the US what you see is that where baseball was once (sorry about this ;)) in another league altogether, football and basketbal managed to catch up. They both used the popularity of the game at the high school and college level. Is this happening with soccer?

Maybe MLS made a mistake trying for an American structure but they believed that to have a successful league in the USA they needed to have as many of the teams as competitive as possible. Clearly their model is the NFL. But who knows, maybe a single-table relegation league would have brought out way more paying customers. Still, until Man U get relegated, I don't see that system working very well......

Fort York Redcoat
08-23-2012, 12:56 PM
Playoffs. And getting as many of the big teams into the same conference as possible. And the gap between big teams and the rest gets wider every year.

I used to think pro soccer had a bright future in the US but I'm less convinced now. When you look at the last half century of pro sports in the US what you see is that where baseball was once (sorry about this ;)) in another league altogether, football and basketbal managed to catch up. They both used the popularity of the game at the high school and college level. Is this happening with soccer?

Maybe MLS made a mistake trying for an American structure but they believed that to have a successful league in the USA they needed to have as many of the teams as competitive as possible. Clearly their model is the NFL. But who knows, maybe a single-table relegation league would have brought out way more paying customers. Still, until Man U get relegated, I don't see that system working very well......

BR hates North America. Such a Eurosnob.

(Incredibly large inside joke)


Life is unfair and so is MLS.

As long as there remains to be a trickle down of rule change a year after they keep bending for LA and NY (big pop. teams) and the league continues to stay relatively safe from becoming like the first NASL...

Well, I won't like it but it's better than stagnating as a league.

james
08-23-2012, 02:55 PM
Relegation would not happen with USL 1 or USL 2 and NASL being lower leagues of MLS because some of those teams dont even have propper stadiums, something MLS has taken quite a long time to finnally having almost every team in MLS with a good looking stadium to play at. Another reason, teams paid a lot of money to get in MLS, they would be pissed to pay all that money and then end up back in USL. Another reason some teams in USL, USL 2 would be concidered to small of a market and lose money for the league in TV revenue and attendence, stadium exc.

Splitting MLS into MLS 1 and MLS 2 into two leagues of 10 clubs sounds cool, but again teams would be to scared to lose money in a lower division, club owners do not want to risk going down a whole divison.

More realisticly but even this may never happen even tho its simple to do, is can we please get a 1 league Table instead of this East and West shit???

Oldtimer
08-23-2012, 03:08 PM
You can tell that our off season has already actually started when threads like this start springing up. This is one of those perennial off-season threads. You'll find at least a couple of them on this topic every year.

Richard
08-23-2012, 03:16 PM
Relegation would not happen with USL 1 or USL 2 and NASL being lower leagues of MLS because some of those teams dont even have propper stadiums, something MLS has taken quite a long time to finnally having almost every team in MLS with a good looking stadium to play at. Another reason, teams paid a lot of money to get in MLS, they would be pissed to pay all that money and then end up back in USL. Another reason some teams in USL, USL 2 would be concidered to small of a market and lose money for the league in TV revenue and attendence, stadium exc.

Splitting MLS into MLS 1 and MLS 2 into two leagues of 10 clubs sounds cool, but again teams would be to scared to lose money in a lower division, club owners do not want to risk going down a whole divison.

More realisticly but even this may never happen even tho its simple to do, is can we please get a 1 league Table instead of this East and West shit???

This is actually an amusing debate to have. Teams in EU seem to not have any problems with the prom/reg system yet here in the North America(Free market capitalism/ Survival of the fittest) there is hesitation, i just find it funny when it comes to sport the traditional ideologies are reversed(Socialism/Capitalism).

ryan
08-23-2012, 03:29 PM
Well to counter the "it'll bankrupt the league" you can't look at my proposal as the same as the English setup, it isn't.

-MLS1 still plays MLS2, you miss no matchups.
-MLS1 and MLS2 have the same salary rules. Same calibur of team can be in either, they just need to perform. This isn't going to push away fans for seeing a shitty div 2 team, the quality doesn't change here, it's still the same team
-Addiitonal competition now exists. They currently grew the playoffs to expand the race to make more drama and interest. My setup has 75% of the league playing for something until the end. Does anyone give a shit about TFC, NE or Colorado right now? No, they are finished.


I think what I'm trying to simulate is a prom/reg system that avoids these pitfalls being outlined.


On that note, what the shit is so great for MLS about it's current format? How are they keeping the money flowing when half the league makes the playoffs? They've made the regular season games have so little value, that to a new fan (which is the bulk of their audience) there's never going to be an emotional connection. How do you build one? You give games more value, they need to mean more. You give teams depths to drop down and climb out of. You know that YT clip of the old bugger crying cause his club made the CL? You're never going to get that here, ever. There's no great heights to climb to when you can turn a bottom end disaster of a club into a champion in a single offseason...which is exactly what the MLS is about.


People won't take it seriously because it's a joke of a system now if you ask me. The whole league reminds me of the "everyone is a winner" problem that invests youth sports today. MLS has such little passion because it doesn't have any balls.



If a idea of drama like this is going to bankrupt MLS, what do you call our current situation that sometimes has 60K people tuning into to watch on NBC?

Soccer Mom
08-23-2012, 07:43 PM
This kind of system would be bad for us. We'd be in the North American equivalent of the Blue Square Premier League...North!

Fort York Redcoat
08-24-2012, 08:17 AM
^This doesn't make any sense

http://www.bluesqnorth.com/Images/bluesqprem/bsq-north-table.gif


there's never going to be an emotional connection. How do you build one? You give games more value, they need to mean more. You give teams depths to drop down and climb out of. You know that YT clip of the old bugger crying cause his club made the CL? You're never going to get that here, ever. There's no great heights to climb to when you can turn a bottom end disaster of a club into a champion in a single offseason...which is exactly what the MLS is about.

Ryan, the emotional connection you speak of has to be instilled through education though. Playoffs are what people know from other sport and when uninvested they switch of to change more than embrace it. It's unfortunate but natural. I want to hope for it but I'm just not that optimistic.

Beach_Red
08-24-2012, 08:52 AM
^This doesn't make any sense

http://www.bluesqnorth.com/Images/bluesqprem/bsq-north-table.gif



Ryan, the emotional connection you speak of has to be instilled through education though. Playoffs are what people know from other sport and when uninvested they switch of to change more than embrace it. It's unfortunate but natural. I want to hope for it but I'm just not that optimistic.

No, the emotional connection isn't built through education, it's built through experience. One game at a time. Believe it or not, we North Americans actually do know something about sports and rivalries and competition and you don't need to educate us about everything ;)

The structure of the league isn't really important, the "depths to drop down and climb out of," are an artificial construct - you can drop down to another league or drop out of the playoffs, does it make that big a difference? Next year you play different (probably much smaller market) teams. That can work with a hundred years of history and a hundred miles between teams but it's probably not the best way to break something new into an incredibly competitive, very spread out market. Either way, you always finish the season saying, "Next year."

But is it really true that an MLS team can still turn it around that much in one year? Does anyone here really believe TFC can be a championship team next season?

ryan
08-24-2012, 09:18 AM
^This doesn't make any sense

Ryan, the emotional connection you speak of has to be instilled through education though. Playoffs are what people know from other sport and when uninvested they switch of to change more than embrace it. It's unfortunate but natural. I want to hope for it but I'm just not that optimistic.

I'm not suggesting to remove a playoff tho? That remains intact for exactly why you suggest, not to remove what they are used to. I disagree with the emotional connection coming through education because the process that creates it doesn't exist. The hardship that we suffer is not the same of being relegated to the depths of hell....especially when we're a 4 time domestic champion and just came off from being a champions league semi finalist....

Again, I just wanted to discuss if a system could exist here that avoids the pitfalls of "the English system" (meaning various levels of salary/talent), caters to the American audience (understandable, keeps what they know (playoffs)) and also works for the Ownership (profitable and fair to what they paid into). It's certainly better than discussing our latest shit kicking or how nobody wants to renew their bloody seats, no?

I know it's not going to happen....under Garber. I also don't believe Garber is the man to take us to the next level. He's brought us further, but I think he's nearing his limit with his refusal to consider certain things. I think MLS can play it safe for only so long before it has to attempt something if it ever has dreams of competing globally as a football league. That's it's goal right? To be a top global football league, well that's a different audience and different game than just trying to impress the Nascar fans down south.

ryan
08-24-2012, 09:20 AM
But is it really true that an MLS team can still turn it around that much in one year? Does anyone here really believe TFC can be a championship team next season?

To win a championship you need to play an entire season as a "mid table" club or better. Then get hot for 2 weeks at the right time. That's it. The bollocks of large playoff fields.

TFC can be a mid table club with a bit of luck next year, absolutely. Anyone can.

__wowza
08-24-2012, 09:24 AM
On that note, what the shit is so great for MLS about it's current format? How are they keeping the money flowing when half the league makes the playoffs? They've made the regular season games have so little value, that to a new fan (which is the bulk of their audience) there's never going to be an emotional connection. How do you build one? You give games more value, they need to mean more. You give teams depths to drop down and climb out of. You know that YT clip of the old bugger crying cause his club made the CL? You're never going to get that here, ever. There's no great heights to climb to when you can turn a bottom end disaster of a club into a champion in a single offseason...which is exactly what the MLS is about.

please keep in mind, the idea of pro/reg in english soccer has a good 50+ year head start on us. it's been so ingrained into the sport in a nation that has very little in terms of other athletic competition (aside from cricket), no ones lining up to see a basketball game in england/mexico/spain/germany.

when you ask "how they keep money flowing when half the league makes the playoffs?", you answer your own question.. half the league is going into the playoffs. i don't like it either, but no one would accept a top of the table trophy, or the pitfall of relegation. you think an MLS2 is going to generate an emotional connection? it would just mean the same hardcore people stick with the team, and follow them down into the second division, while the "new fan" up and leaves, because seriously.. why would a new fan want to watch second tier soccer?

games already have value, when we lose games we should've won, tied games we should've lost, it means something. we already have half of the board looking over the schedule going "these we can win, these we can lose", how could that not mean anything? do you think the casual fan would become MORE emotionally invested in the league knowing that their local team could drop down to a second tier? i don't.

Fort York Redcoat
08-24-2012, 09:26 AM
No, the emotional connection isn't built through education, it's built through experience. One game at a time. Believe it or not, we North Americans actually do know something about sports and rivalries and competition and you don't need to educate us about everything ;)

The structure of the league isn't really important, the "depths to drop down and climb out of," are an artificial construct - you can drop down to another league or drop out of the playoffs, does it make that big a difference? Next year you play different (probably much smaller market) teams. That can work with a hundred years of history and a hundred miles between teams but it's probably not the best way to break something new into an incredibly competitive, very spread out market. Either way, you always finish the season saying, "Next year."

But is it really true that an MLS team can still turn it around that much in one year? Does anyone here really believe TFC can be a championship team next season?

To "tweak" my response I'll say it takes very little to inform, not really educate a fan that hasn't the concept yet.

For me, you go from saying the perspective of the artificial construct doesn't matter that much (pro/rel or playoffs) to asking the question if we can win it all next year. Firstly, I do but the likelihood is ridiculously slim and secondly, why would you bring up the title if all we need to equate success for improvement in this system (let's admit you champion this system) is to make the playoffs?

My resentment for this system has been added to over many years of 2 prominent attitudes in a schedule- Making playoffs or tanking for the draft. (Insert joke about local sports teams lack of success here)

ryan
08-24-2012, 09:42 AM
please keep in mind, the idea of pro/reg in english soccer has a good 50+ year head start on us. it's been so ingrained into the sport in a nation that has very little in terms of other athletic competition (aside from cricket), no ones lining up to see a basketball game in england/mexico/spain/germany.

when you ask "how they keep money flowing when half the league makes the playoffs?", you answer your own question.. half the league is going into the playoffs. i don't like it either, but no one would accept a top of the table trophy, or the pitfall of relegation. you think an MLS2 is going to generate an emotional connection? it would just mean the same hardcore people stick with the team, and follow them down into the second division, while the "new fan" up and leaves, because seriously.. why would a new fan want to watch second tier soccer?

games already have value, when we lose games we should've won, tied games we should've lost, it means something. we already have half of the board looking over the schedule going "these we can win, these we can lose", how could that not mean anything? do you think the casual fan would become MORE emotionally invested in the league knowing that their local team could drop down to a second tier? i don't.

which is why level1 and 2 have the same rules and don't integrate with USL/NASL. Thus it's not bloody second tier soccer. It's the same god damn teams right now. It's not the same system, that's the whole point and every response of yours is ignoring that like I'm suggesting to go that route. I give up with you. I'm not suggesting the bloody English system.

Beach_Red
08-24-2012, 09:43 AM
To "tweak" my response I'll say it takes very little to inform, not really educate a fan that hasn't the concept yet.

For me, you go from saying the perspective of the artificial construct doesn't matter that much (pro/rel or playoffs) to asking the question if we can win it all next year. Firstly, I do but the likelihood is ridiculously slim and secondly, why would you bring up the title if all we need to equate success for improvement in this system (let's admit you champion this system) is to make the playoffs?

My resentment for this system has been added to over many years of 2 prominent attitudes in a schedule- Making playoffs or tanking for the draft. (Insert joke about local sports teams lack of success here)

It's not so much that I champion this system, it's that I don't see much difference. It just depends on how many teams are in the equation. To make the playoffs you need to be in the top eight. To avoid relegation you need to be in the top... whatever it is in your league. If there are 40 or 50 teams they have to be divided up somehow, you can't play 50 games a season. If there are only 20 teams they don't have to be divided. That's all it is.

Now, as for Ryan's point that an MLS team can be mid-table and then get hot for a few weeks and win a championship that's true. But what we'll see as the league matures is the same thing we see in the NFL. The better run teams will spend a lot more time at the top and the poorly run teams will spend a lot more time at the bottom. What we won't see is a Russian billionaire buy the Bengals and spend them into a powerhouse. And I like that.

JonO
08-24-2012, 10:47 AM
Question: Since all the teams play each other, regardless of "tier", what happens when the team that finishes top of tier 2 has a better recored than some or all of the playoff teams from tier 1? Arguably, the best team in the league could miss playoffs because of the tier they are in. This is why I think the schedules have to be weighted by tier. So many variables trying to set this up - I know Hitcho and Flatpicker had quite a promotion/relegation scheme planned out.

Fort York Redcoat
08-24-2012, 11:47 AM
Question: Since all the teams play each other, regardless of "tier", what happens when the team that finishes top of tier 2 has a better recored than some or all of the playoff teams from tier 1? Arguably, the best team in the league could miss playoffs because of the tier they are in. This is why I think the schedules have to be weighted by tier. So many variables trying to set this up - I know Hitcho and Flatpicker had quite a promotion/relegation scheme planned out.

Oh man I forgot about those plans! That was pretty epic back and forth!

__wowza
08-24-2012, 12:29 PM
which is why level1 and 2 have the same rules and don't integrate with USL/NASL. Thus it's not bloody second tier soccer. It's the same god damn teams right now. It's not the same system, that's the whole point and every response of yours is ignoring that like I'm suggesting to go that route. I give up with you. I'm not suggesting the bloody English system.

jesus tap dancing christ dude, i misunderstood. RELAX.
i read it as a two tier system.

ryan
08-24-2012, 01:53 PM
jesus tap dancing christ dude, i misunderstood. RELAX.
i read it as a two tier system.

I calmly curse alot. You just gotta know me. It's all good.

__wowza
08-24-2012, 03:36 PM
I calmly curse alot. You just gotta know me. It's all good.

shit, and here i was ready to get my dueling pistols out.
i'll take a re-read when i get home.

Blizzard
08-24-2012, 03:56 PM
I've always wondered if this could work (not sure if this should go in the other section, it's not news, just a random blabbering from me so...)


MLS grows to 20 clubs, announces they are going to split 10/10. Top 10 stay in MLS-1 and bottom 10 go to MLS-2.

Following season setup is:

All teams play each other 2x, for 38 matches

OR

All teams play each of their league opponent 3x for 27 matches.
All teams play the other league opponent 1x for 9 matches.


This way you still get to play everyone, you still get your "Beckham" or "Henry" or "Boyd" game or whatever the fuck.


Then you have a 6 team playoff (NFL Style) in MLS 1 for the Championship, and a 4 team promotion playoff (Seeds 3-6) in MLS-2 for 1 promotion spot (Seeds 1 and 2 auto promote). 3 up and 3 down.



Seems like the biggest issue around promo/relegation with MLS is that teams would refuse to drop down to a USL or NASL...so why not make two levels within yourself? Then maintain a schedule that still sees all MLS clubs, so you can't complain about not getting to play X club.

Of course with the 2nd of my 2 suggested schedules, you'd get more matches vs those "Top Old Man Player" clubs in the top flight, so then clubs like us would actually have to do something about being a bottom feeder cause being MLS-1 would be more lucrative.


In the end, I see it generating more interest for MLS. The drama of going up and down, having a Championship playoff, a promotion playoff. Most teams have something to play for right up until the end of the year, as opposed to now where 6+ clubs can already pack it in with 10+ matches remaining.

MLS is struggling on TV, why not add more dramatic matches? Add a setup that's more familiar to soccer fans over here? Be more like a pro soccer league?

Absolutely impossible and unworkable. People don't pay $50 million in franchise feeds just to be immediately relegated to a second division. What you would see happen is the relegated clubs instantly losing most of its fan base and then destructing.

Relegation is not part of the NA professional sports psyche even if you are still "technically" in the same league. The concept of inter-divisional play is interesting but my thinking is that if a club's supporters know that it is impossible to actually win the MLS Cup, they are going to lose interest very early.

BTW, 38 games is a bit too much for the teams that might also have a good CCL cup run.

james
08-25-2012, 01:21 PM
Absolutely impossible and unworkable. People don't pay $50 million in franchise feeds just to be immediately relegated to a second division. What you would see happen is the relegated clubs instantly losing most of its fan base and then destructing.

Relegation is not part of the NA professional sports psyche even if you are still "technically" in the same league. The concept of inter-divisional play is interesting but my thinking is that if a club's supporters know that it is impossible to actually win the MLS Cup, they are going to lose interest very early.

BTW, 38 games is a bit too much for the teams that might also have a good CCL cup run.

i agree with you how teams do not want to pay 50 million to be in division 2, and i know it's not normal in North America to have anything but a season followed by playoffs format. However sometimes i think fans might get behind a relegation/promotion system better then some of us think. We already have a champions League and a US Open Cup and Canadian Championship and some of these events have gotten big attendences and this is what you would say is not the North American format system. Some other games tho in US Open Cup, Champions League and Canadian Championship have also had very low attedence as well so it does not always work to call it a complete success. But some MLS playoff games have had low attednece, so to say playoffs are always a big thing for North American fans does not always look that way when you see some teams average less attendnece in playoffs then they did in the reguler season. A 2nd division may go down better with fans then some people just asume. More so i think it's the owners that this system would never work for, they would not want to be in a 2nd division more then anyone!

narduch
08-25-2012, 01:33 PM
People who support promotion/relegation should do a study of average attendances of teams that drop from the top division to the second division in Europe.

Beach_Red
08-25-2012, 02:41 PM
People who support promotion/relegation should do a study of average attendances of teams that drop from the top division to the second division in Europe.

Yes, and especially if the study is for the last 10-15 years, since foreign ownership and TV money has been such a factor.

Comparisons are never totally accurate, but for the USA you can look at what happens in the NCAA when teams drop too far down the rankings.

OgtheDim
08-25-2012, 08:46 PM
This kind of system would be bad for us. We'd be in the North American equivalent of the Blue Square Premier League...North!


As a Barrow AFC supporter, I'm of two minds about this comment. That league really is horrible.

But I also admire clubs that know their limitations.

james
08-27-2012, 02:31 PM
Yes, and especially if the study is for the last 10-15 years, since foreign ownership and TV money has been such a factor.

Comparisons are never totally accurate, but for the USA you can look at what happens in the NCAA when teams drop too far down the rankings.

Here is a brief study of attendence at grounds going from Championship to Premiership and vice versa. Attedence goes down in Championship thats for sure, but not always by much. But I also think the longer a club is in Championship the more likely attendece will go down more over time, as this is only over a 4 year period, thats my 2 cents anyways.

Queens Park Rangers - between 08/09 till 10/11 QPR averaged between 13,348 amd 15,635 in Championshp division. In 11/12 they joined premiership with an average attedence of 17,295

Hull City - in 08/09 and 09/10 Hull enjoyed the Premiership averaging just over 24,000 fans a game. The next 2 years they got relegated into Championship in year 10/11 Hull averaged 21,168 and 11/12 averaged 18,790

Newcastle - Newcastle has averaged between 47,717 to 49,935 in recent years in the Premiership. There 1 year of relegation in the Championship in 09/10 they averaged a low 43,387 average attedence.

Birmingham City - in 08/09 averaged 19,080 in Championship followed by 09/10 in Premeriship with 25,246 and 10/11 averaging 24,461 before going back to championship in 11/12 averaging 19,087.

West Ham - West Ham averaged between 33,404 and 33,610 from 08/09 to 10/11 in the premiership before getting relegated and spending 1 season 2011/12 in Championshp averaging a low 30,923 fans a game.

Burnley - In 08/09 Burnley averaged 13,187 in Championship before getting promoted for 1 year in the Premiership averging 20,653 and then falling back into championship for 10/11 and 11/12 averaging just over 14,000 both seasons.

Portsmouth- in 08/09 in Premiership Portsmouth averaged 19,829 followed by 09/10 with 18,258 before getting relgated to championship in 10/11 averaging 15,707 and followed by 11/12 in which they got relegated after finnished 22nd of championship table and averaged a similar attedence from the previous season of 15,014. They now are in League 1 (division 3)

Wolverhampton - in 08/09 Wolves averaged 24,153 at top of Championship. They enjoyed 3 seasons in Premiership from 09/10 to 11/12 averaging high of 27,695 to a low in there last season of premiership averaging 25,671. They now are back in Championship for 12/13.

Blackpool- The smallest club and stadium in Championship at the time averaged 7,842 in 08/09 and 8,611 in 09/10 as they got promoted to the premiership. Before the start of 10/11 Blackpools stadium made renovations increasing capacity from 9,788 to 17,600. Blackpool enjoyed 1 year in the premiership with 15,779 average attdence before going back down to championship for 11/12 where they averaged 12,764.

Middlesborough - in 08/09 they averaged 28,428 fans a game as they finnished the Premiership season in 19th and got relegation. In 09/10 attedence dropped to a average attendnece of 19,948 after finnishing 11th place in Championship, and had a bigger drop in attednce then any other club listed above. In 10/11 they finnished 12th and averaged dropped again to 16,628 followed by a increase attednce in 11/12 to 17,557 after just missing the playoffs finnishing in 7th place.

Alonso
08-27-2012, 03:09 PM
You can tell that our off season has already actually started when threads like this start springing up. This is one of those perennial off-season threads. You'll find at least a couple of them on this topic every year.


Yup.

It's official, let the off season begin!

prizby
08-27-2012, 04:09 PM
imagine if the seattle gets relegated...mls would never allow it

brad
08-27-2012, 07:40 PM
James - nice numbers.

That said, I don't think attendance changes in England under promotion relegation would have much bearing on how it would be in the MLS.

Those English clubs are establishments in the culture and the society. People have bonds to their clubs that come from this. We just don't have that in MLS beyond small numbers of the very loyal supporters. The league is just too new for that.

brad
08-27-2012, 07:43 PM
imagine if the seattle gets relegated...mls would never allow it

NYRB would have went down in 2009. Worst team in the league by a wide margin that year. Imagine what the Don would have done with that...

narduch
08-27-2012, 08:25 PM
imagine if the seattle gets relegated...mls would never allow it

I'm not sure what your point is. MLS will never allow any team to be relegated.

Redcoe15
08-27-2012, 10:41 PM
NYRB would have went down in 2009. Worst team in the league by a wide margin that year. Imagine what the Don would have done with that...
LA, with Beckham and Donovan, would have gone down in 2008 with pro/rel. The Don would have freaked out if that had happened.

No way pro/rel ever appears in MLS.

kodiakTFC
08-28-2012, 12:36 AM
I don't see how promotion and relegations works with such a low salary cap. The parity is pretty insane in MLS, you see turnarounds year after year (for most clubs).
_

james
08-28-2012, 01:37 PM
James - nice numbers.

That said, I don't think attendance changes in England under promotion relegation would have much bearing on how it would be in the MLS.

Those English clubs are establishments in the culture and the society. People have bonds to their clubs that come from this. We just don't have that in MLS beyond small numbers of the very loyal supporters. The league is just too new for that.



i agree in someways but other ways maybe not. As I said before sometimes MLS clubs fans have shown in competitions such as champions League, US open Cup, Canada Championship that fans can get behind there team outside of the Season followed by playoff North American format with good attendence numbers. But other clubs have not. I think some clubs in MLS would be more like the Premiership and England Championship numbers, attendence would go down, but not as much as you think and would maybe actually beable to survive with promo/relegation. But then there is other clubs that i think would die with relegation. And some of these clubs have shown by not being able to ever get more then a few thousand fans at Champions League, US Open Cup matches. I think teams like Portland or Seattle or Montreal or even maybe Toronto would be fine in a 2nd division (Toronto might actually win more games in 2nd division, might bring some fans back). But clubs like NY or LA attendence would just disapear. They would be getting 3,ooo fans a game. And the owners would not beable to deal with this.

bertal
09-04-2012, 08:39 AM
it's all about the $$$