World's Top leagues: Where should MLS stand?

[asterix606]

Based on this article: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1113007-ranking-the-worlds-top-20-leagues-after-the-epl-la-liga-and-serie-a#/articles/1113007-ranking-the-worlds-top-20-leagues-after-the-epl-la-liga-and-serie-a

Questions:

1. Is this an accurate position for MLS in 2012 (number 20)?

2. If you were to add to this ranking 2nd Division leagues in England, Italy, Spain, Germany and France. Would they beat out MLS in quality of football?


World's Top Leagues

1. EPL
2. La Liga
3. Seia A
4. Bundesliga
5. Liga Portugal
6. Brazil (Campeonato)
7. France (Ligue 1)
8. Argentina (Primera Liga)
9. Holland
10. Russia
11. Chile
12. Belgium
13. Mexico (FMF)
14. South Korea (K-League)
15. Switzerland
16. Greece
17. Scotland
18. Poland
19. Denmark
20. MLS
21. Sweden
22. Norway
23. Ireland

[Frings22]

Those rankings are sooo messed up.... It should be more like
1. EPL
2. Bundesliga (Huge competition for places, not like la liga)
3. Serie A
4. La Liga
5. France (Ligue 1)
6. Russia
7. Holland
8. Portuguese league
9. Switzerland
10. Ekstraklasa
11-15 Random debatable leagues
16. Mls

[Lennon]

Lmao.
Seems like everyone's forgotten about Ukraine ..

[Red CB Toronto]

I have also wondered where a top second division ie The Championship would rank within the World's landscape?

[ryan]

I have also wondered where a top second division ie The Championship would rank within the World's landscape?

Above MLS, that's for sure.

[Benficachop20]

Those rankings are sooo messed up.... It should be more like
1. EPL
2. Bundesliga (Huge competition for places, not like la liga)
3. Serie A
4. La Liga
5. France (Ligue 1)
6. Russia
7. Holland
8. Portuguese league
9. Switzerland
10. Ekstraklasa
11-15 Random debatable leagues
16. Mls

i'm always confused y people say those leagues are better than Portugal. Portuguese clubs always go way further into tournaments, plus portugal is currently 5th in europe based on coefficients and very likely gonna pass Italy for fourth. The first list i think is a little bit more accurate, would probably have Brazil and Argentina a little higher.

[flatpicker]

But Drogba and Anelka both play in the Chinese Super League.
Surely that must mean it's the best, right?
I mean, it is "super" after all.

[brad]

Do any of those leagues above field incompetent players on almost every team and have virtually no depth in any position?

[tovan]

Lmao.
Seems like everyone's forgotten about Ukraine ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzLtF_PxbYw

[69Chevy396]

Where does MLS stand? Are including TFC in this measurement?

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

The Irish League is the 23rd best league in the world? The article can have no credibility after a statement like that. Some of the team aren't even fulltime professional. The Turkish league, the Romanian League, the Ukrainian League -- they're all miles better than the Irish League and that's the first three that came to mind.

[nonc]

worthwhile discussion but why glorify 'the bleacher report' which is essentially amateur articles created by morons?

[Initial B]

I can't believe they left the J-League (Japan) of the list. The author doesn't know what he's talking about. It's just a slide show anyways, not a real list, imo.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Wow. So we're still going to compare our league to other leagues that are built and operated entirely different from our own?



http://jasonjeffrey.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/awjeeznotthisshitagain.jpg


...Carry on...

[__wowza]

I can't believe they left the J-League (Japan) of the list. The author doesn't know what he's talking about. It's just a slide show anyways, not a real list, imo.

what he said, look at your source: it's the fucking bleacher report.
they did an article called "10 bold predictions for the TFC vs Galaxy CCL match" which included:

1. goals
2. david beckham is back for another season
3. robbie keane will do his trademark summersault
4. home field advantage will matter

come on now..

[TOBOR !]

Wow. So we're still going to compare our league to other leagues that are built and operated entirely different from our own?



http://jasonjeffrey.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/awjeeznotthisshitagain.jpg


...Carry on...

It's a good way to distract one another from the usual TFC shit - think of it as therapy. :)

[Oldtimer]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, but knowing Ligue 2 in France, I'd say that it and MLS are roughly comparable. Both are equally physical, Ligue 2 is more technical, MLS is more athletic.

TFC is of course worse than any other team in MLS or in Ligue 2.

[T-boy]

The "average" MLS player isn't very good at all. But you also have a few excellent players, and then some awful players in depth on every team. On a good day, when all first teamers are playing, you can see a very good MLS game. On a bad day, you get nothing better than a Sunday pub team game. It's extremely hard to judge the overall quality of the league though. You have players like Luke Rodgers come from a English League 2 team and look like a superstar in the MLS! That wouldn't always be the case though, its very hard to judge the MLS in comparison to other leagues.

[Oldtimer]

The "average" MLS player isn't very good at all. But you also have a few excellent players, and then some awful players in depth on every team. On a good day, when all first teamers are playing, you can see a very good MLS game. On a bad day, you get nothing better than a Sunday pub team game. It's extremely hard to judge the overall quality of the league though. You have players like Luke Rodgers come from a English League 2 team and look like a superstar in the MLS! That wouldn't always be the case though, its very hard to judge the MLS in comparison to other leagues.

That's a bit of hyperbole, but I ask do you watch most of the rest of the league? Because while games involving TFC tend to be very bad (opposition tends to play down to TFC's level), most of the league's games are actually quite decent.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Where would we be in this list without Designated Players in our League?

Would this league be around still if we had no salary cap?

Would people have supported InterToronto for as long as they have TorontoFC?


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Cvo4jwbe8wE/SlTpHphrKOI/AAAAAAAACv4/WOJ79iv_TxI/s400/rodserling.jpg

[London]

That's a bit of hyperbole, but I ask do you watch most of the rest of the league? Because while games involving TFC tend to be very bad (opposition tends to play down to TFC's level), most of the league's games are actually quite decent.


this is the truth, most games in mls not involving TFC tend to be much more entertaining to watch and more skilled play

[T-boy]

this is the truth, most games in mls not involving TFC tend to be much more entertaining to watch and more skilled play]

I watched a game the other day (can't remember the teams, but the game where 3 guys were sent off) - I didn't think the quality was any better in that game than any TFC game really. As I said - you CAN see some good MLS games, but you can also see some really poor ones (and I'm not talking ONLY TFC games). TFC games have NEVER been fun to watch. I think I can count the "good" games on one hand involving TFC. A lot of people are saying Winter played better looking footba,, but I never saw it then either. No TFC team has ever been particularly fun to watch. For sure, you can pick out a couple of exeptional games, but on average, TFC games are poor quality, midfield melee games.

[__wowza]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Cvo4jwbe8wE/SlTpHphrKOI/AAAAAAAACv4/WOJ79iv_TxI/s400/rodserling.jpg

imagine if you will a team so spectacularly bad that a price freeze, on their already overpriced tickets, would be considered a kindness from their ownership group..

[Richard]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, but knowing Ligue 2 in France, I'd say that it and MLS are roughly comparable. Both are equally physical, Ligue 2 is more technical, MLS is more athletic.

TFC is of course worse than any other team in MLS or in Ligue 2.

I think other than those two areas which you mention football IQ is the largest diff. Most lower leagues in Europe have players who are far more aware of the playing field, its why i think MLS still has a long way to go.

[Oldtimer]

]

I watched a game the other day (can't remember the teams, but the game where 3 guys were sent off) - I didn't think the quality was any better in that game than any TFC game really. As I said - you CAN see some good MLS games, but you can also see some really poor ones (and I'm not talking ONLY TFC games). TFC games have NEVER been fun to watch. I think I can count the "good" games on one hand involving TFC. A lot of people are saying Winter played better looking footba,, but I never saw it then either. No TFC team has ever been particularly fun to watch. For sure, you can pick out a couple of exeptional games, but on average, TFC games are poor quality, midfield melee games.

That game was truly an exception. I've watched some quite watchable football in MLS, and I've been watching since 2005.
With a few exceptional games (one of them was Preki's game against that Mexican side, another was the Fire game in 2007, the "Miracle in Montreal" also stands out), TFC has been just plain poor.

[Oldtimer]

I think other than those two areas which you mention football IQ is the largest diff. Most lower leagues in Europe have players who are far more aware of the playing field, its why i think MLS still has a long way to go.

The IQ in Ligue 2 is higher, but not as much higher than your non-TFC side as you'd think. For example RSL has played some beautiful and technically gifted football. That CCL game where they won in Mexico against Monterrey just took my breath away at times, one of the best matches I've ever seen this side of the Atlantic. When I lived in Nice, I watched quite a few OGC Nice's games when they were playing in Ligue 2, both live and on TV. They were more rough than technical, they few quality players at that time on that team.

Now for a top Ligue 1 side like Marseille, the technical difference between them and MLS is enormous.

[james]

Its hard to rank how good some leagues are. Most leagues in Europe have a few big strong clubs while rest of the league is far behind them in quality, skill, stadiums, and money. There is a select few leagues that can have more then just 2 or 3 clubs that can still compete at a high level.

Overall tho i think MLS is still far behind all these leagues. MLS does average better attendence then most of these leagues suprisingly. However we have rules and salary caps. We have a few really good players in the league followed by some really bad ones spread across the league. The one point to look at to compare is just look at Concacaf Champions League....some of these central American clubs are a big strugle for MLS clubs to beat. Yes we win some, but we also loose to some teams who play in a high school size park. And we are miles behind the top Mexican league, they dominate MLS clubs, we should not be lossing 6-2, 5-2 exc on a reguler basis to these clubs when we play them in Mexico. But MLS is deffinitly on the rise. One thing that may actually be difficult tho is that we have 20 teams in MLS, all rather close in skill, money exc. So its harder to produce 20 strong teams then it is to produce 2 to 4 very strong clubs at the top of the league year after year while having the rest of the league far behind like most leagues are. If we got a few big clubs and dumped most of MLS's good players on these few teams we would have a couple of strong clubs that would compete in some Europe leagues, which is what most leagues more or less have now. The rest of the league tho would be further behind, and really have no chance of winning the league, and it can get very borring when same teams win year after year. And that is also why many leagues attendnece is actually rather low, only a few big clubs represent about 75% of the entire leagues fan base.

[james]

Germany and England both have a very strong 2nd and even 3rd division. MLS Clubs i think if were put in these leagues 2nd division they would get relegated...3rd division they may do just ok, but would not be a push over for MLS clubs thats for sure. Other leagues like Italy, France, Spain, Holland there 2nd divisions i do not think are as strong, MLS Clubs may survive in the 2nd divison. Leagues like Scotland, Belgium, Sweden, Poland, Switzerland, Portugal, Russia and so on i would hope MLS Clubs would beable to win in a 2nd division of these Leagues with no problem, there for beable to be in a Division 1 league.

[Richard]

Its hard to rank how good some leagues are. Most leagues in Europe have a few big strong clubs while rest of the league is far behind them in quality, skill, stadiums, and money. There is a select few leagues that can have more then just 2 or 3 clubs that can still compete at a high level.

Overall tho i think MLS is still far behind all these leagues. MLS does average better attendence then most of these leagues suprisingly. However we have rules and salary caps. We have a few really good players in the league followed by some really bad ones that would never play in some of these leagues. The one point to look at to compare is just look at Concacaf Champions League....some of these central American clubs are a big strugle for MLS clubs to beat. Yes we win some, but we also loose to some teams who play in a high school size park. And we are miles behind the top Mexican league, they dominate MLS clubs that for sure, we should not be lossing 6-2, 5-2 exc on a reguler basis to these clubs when we play them in Mexico. But MLS is deffinitly on the rise. One thing that may actually be difficult tho is that we have what 19-20 teams in MLS, all rather close in skill, money exc. So its harder to produce 20 strong teams then it is to produce 2 to 4 very strong clubs at the top of the league while having the rest of the league far behind like most leagues are.

I was somewhat surprised to see the attendance figures myself and where they stack up in the world. The main difference though is sponsorship and T.V money which if the league finaly taps into will allow this league to really grow.



The IQ in Ligue 2 is higher, but not as much higher than your non-TFC side as you'd think. For example RSL has played some beautiful and technically giften football. That CCL game where they won in Mexico against Monterrey just took my breath away at times, one of the best matches I've ever seen this side of the Atlantic. When I lived in Nice, I watched quite a few OGC Nice's games when they were playing in Ligue 2, both live and on TV. They were more rough than technical, they few quality players at that time on that team.

Now for a top Ligue 1 side like Marseille, the technical difference between them and MLS is enormous.

I agree. I always try to catch a RSL when i can, they seem to have the perfect combination and chemistry.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I agree. I always try to catch a RSL when i can, they seem to have the perfect combination and chemistry.


When they won they did.

They've lost 10 games so far this year.

[Oldtimer]

When they won they did.

They've lost 10 games so far this year.

The reality of a parity league, it's hard to stay on top.

[scooterTFC]

Germany and England both have a very strong 2nd and even 3rd division. MLS Clubs i think if were put in these leagues 2nd division they would get relegated...3rd division they may do just ok, but would not be a push over for MLS clubs thats for sure. Other leagues like Italy, France, Spain, Holland there 2nd divisions i do not think are as strong, MLS Clubs may survive in the 2nd divison. Leagues like Scotland, Belgium, Sweden, Poland, Switzerland, Portugal, Russia and so on i would hope MLS Clubs would beable to win in a 2nd division of these Leagues with no problem, there for beable to be in a Division 1 league.

I'd love to see a "made for TV" event where a top 5 calibre MLS team travelled to England and played their way up the English football league pyramid over the course of 3 weeks. Have them play 1 game against a mid table team from each league, beginning with Blue Square (5th Tier) going all the way up to the Premiership.

I don't think the standard of play in MLS is as poor as many people claim. Clearly the MLS standard is well below the top leagues in Europe (England, Italy, Spain, Germany, France, Holland...) I would agree that The average North American player has a lower football IQ and probably less technical ability on the ball. However the speed, strength and athleticism of players in MLS is probably better than that of many tier 2 leagues in Europe. At its current stage of evolution, MLS game might not always be pretty too watch, but the sport is progressing here.

It will be interesting to see how the pro game evolves in North America in the next 5-10 years. European basketball evolved in a bit of a isolated bubble outside of the NBA game 15-20 years ago, and that style of play eventually came to influence on the NBA game of today. Maybe the MLS will offer the soccer world some new innovation 10 years down he line

[kodiakTFC]

J.League is far better than MLS as well. Honestly, MLS is top 20 but its goal should be top 8 by 2030. We're not that far off, I'd say were getting close to the 'other' European leagues. A top MLS side could challenge in the Eredivise for a European spot.

[Cashcleaner]

^ I agree. Above all else, MLS has the potential to be a top 10, perhaps even a top 5 league when you factor in the all-important economic side of things. Recession or not, the US still has the world's largest and most active economy, and the people who own the clubs here are often rolling in disposable income. As much as we don't want to believe it; even in sports, money makes the world go round. Perhaps the biggest barrier to MLS's success is the competition from other sports for the fan's dollar.

I'm quite confident that over time it will be a league that rivals some currently in the top places.

[james]

I was somewhat surprised to see the attendance figures myself and where they stack up in the world. The main difference though is sponsorship and T.V money which if the league finaly taps into will allow this league to really grow.


Well heres a glimpse on what other leagues average attedence in 2011/12. This does not include playoffs, or cup matches.

Denmark
1. Copenhagen 15,540
2. Brondby 12,608
3. Aarhus 11,012
4. Odense BK 7,560
lowest attendence in 1st division-
12. Lynby BK 2,168

Switzerland
1. FC Basel 29,775
2. Young Boys 21,104
3. Luzern 14,180
4. Servette 10,697
lowest attendence 1st division-
10. xmax FC 4,149

Netherlands
1. Ajax 50,147
2.Feyenoord 44,781
3. PSV 33,353
4. Tweente 28,237
Lowest 1st divsion attednece -
18. SBV 3,301

Croatia
1.Split 9,833
2.Dinamo 3,113
3.NK Istra 2,527
4. HNK 2,467
lowest attendence 1st division
16. NK Varazdin 653

Belgium
1. Standard Liege 25,113
2. Club Brugge 24,344
3. Andelecht 22,349
4. Genk 21,942
lowest attendence 1st division
16. RAEC 5,315

Portugal
1. Benifica 42,664
2. Porto 35,176
3.Sporting 34,934
4. Braga 15,029
Lowest attendence in 1st division
16. Nacional 1,886

Scotland
1. Celtic 49, 967
2. Rangers 46,519
3. Hearts 13,605
4. Hibs 9,654
lowest attendence in 1st division
12. St. Johnstone 3,923

Russia
1. Moskva 24,243
2. Kuban 22,753
3. Zenit 19,393
4. CSKA 17,632
lowest 1st division attedence
16.Spartak Nalchik 5,600

Poland
1. Legia Warszawa 20,928
2. Lechia Gdansk 17,732
3. Slask Wroclaw 16,944
4. Wisla Krakow 16,402
lowest attendence in 1st division
16. GKS 2,022

France
1. PSG 42,891
2. OM Marseille 40,455
3. Lyon 33,139
4. Saint Etienne 21,533
Lowest attedence in 1st division
20. AC Ajaccio 6,338

Greece
1. Olympiakos 21,523
2. PAOK 11,393
3. Panathinaikos 9,554
4. Aris 6,944
lowest 1st division attendence
16. Doxa Drama 672

Norway
1. Rosenborg BK 14,510
2. Valenrenga IF 13,337
3. SK Brann 13,012
4. Viking FK 10,250
lowest attendence in 1st division
16. sogndal IL 3,211

Japan
1. Urawa Reds 33,910
2. Niigata 26,049
3. Yokohoma 21,038
4. Kawasaki 17,340
lowest attendence in 1st division
18. Omiya 9,099

Argentina
1. Boca Juniors 41,700
2. Newells Old Boys 34,333
3. Belgrano 27,889
4. Racing Club 27,111
lowest attendence in 1st division
20. Arsenal FC 6,722

MLS - 2011
1. Seattle 38,496
2. LA 23,335
3.Vancouver 20,412
4. Toronto 20,267
lowest attendence in 1st division
18. San Jose 11,858

[OgtheDim]

MLS numbers are tickets sold. Pretty sure many European numbers are if anything artificially low due to tax implications to the teams (e.g. UK VAT).

[FIAF]

I don't believe MLS is top 20 at all...going by CCL no MLS club has won it and they have only been runner-up once recently even though it has the same berths as Mexico. The Costa Ricans have done better and other leagues like Honduras have matched it. It's not top-20. Maybe bottom-20...

[narduch]

I don't believe MLS is top 20 at all...going by CCL no MLS club has won it and they have only been runner-up once recently even though it has the same berths as Mexico. The Costa Ricans have done better and other leagues like Honduras have matched it. It's not top-20. Maybe top-30...

Two MLS clubs did win the tournament in its previous incarnation.

I think its only a matter of time before that happens again (especially with the new rules favouring the US teams).

[bigredone]

imagine if you will a team so spectacularly bad that a price freeze, on their already overpriced tickets, would be considered a kindness from their ownership group..

There are strange things done 'neath the midnight sun....

[ryan]

MLS is no issue really when it comes to gates...it's TV money where every league on the planet has us beat.

[trane]

The MLS is still low level league. The depth of talent in football, and not just on the field but on the bench and the offices in the rest of the world, and particularly Europe, is leaps and bounds ahead of here. Someone said that the Second division is not strong in Italy, Serie B is full of very skilled players on very organized teams, that would beat any MLS team more often then not. This league is build all wrong, with a very shallow talent pool and selects its players on the wrong attributes, is organizationally and tactically weak. The league is getting better, but we are light years away, teams like the Sounders, Vancouver and Montreal seem to be on the right path all thought the finish line is far, far away.

Someone is also saying that the Portuguese league will catch Serie A, I like Portuguese football, but no way, the depth of professional players in Italy is far beyond, pretty well any other country in Europe except Spain, at this point. Need I remind people that we just came to the last game of the Euros during a "down" cycle in Italy football, with mostly Serie A players. If "fair play" is actually introduced next year, Serie A will climb back to the top of world leagues due to the depth of Italian talent.

[james]

The MLS is still low level league. The depth of talent in football, and not just on the field but on the bench and the offices in the rest of the world, and particularly Europe, is leaps and bounds ahead of here. Someone said that the Second division is not strong in Italy, Serie B is full of very skilled players on very organized teams, that would beat any MLS team more often then not. This league is build all wrong, with a very shallow talent pool and selects its players on the wrong attributes, is organizationally and tactically weak. The league is getting better, but we are light years away, teams like the Sounders, Vancouver and Montreal seem to be on the right path all thought the finish line is far, far away.

Someone is also saying that the Portuguese league will catch Serie A, I like Portuguese football, but no way, the depth of professional players in Italy is far beyond, pretty well any other country in Europe except Spain, at this point. Need I remind people that we just came to the last game of the Euros during a "down" cycle in Italy football, with mostly Serie A players. If "fair play" is actually introduced next year, Serie A will climb back to the top of world leagues due to the depth of Italian talent.

i would say Italy is still a very strong league, and probably has strong home grown players as they pretty much always have had strong home grown players. But the league is not as strong as id say as England, Germany 2nd divisions thats for sure. And yes AC Milan and Inter Milan or Juventus exc are top teams and can be the best in Europe at times but its the teams at the bottom half of Seria A that can be weaker. There is a bigger gap between big clubs and smaller clubs. And i don't think there Seria B is as strong because of things like money and attendence and TV ratings. Only 4 clubs in Seria B were getting attendence average over 9,000 fans a game, the other 18 clubs was drawing between 1,000 and 8,000 fans last year. England didn't have a single team of there 24 clubs drawing under 9,000 fans in there 2nd divison, and Germany had only 2 clubs of there 18 clubs drawing under 9,000. Stadiums in Italy are often far behind German and England clubs, they often are run down and need serious renovations done, but clubs can often not afford to fix them up. Germany and England 2nd division also most likely have more money to bring in Foreign talent. Besides those 2 Leagues tho there 2nd division is probably just as good or better then in Spain...and better then any other leagues 2nd division.

Portugal is deffinitly far behind Seria A and B. Besides a few strong clubs such as Sporting, Porto, Benifica and Braga the talent drops off big time after that.