Paul Mariner end march

[Oldtimer]

So now the time of the great "tweak" is on the down-stretch, and Paul Mariner has some difficult games ahead:

Columbus (predict tie)
Houston (loss)
Santos Laguna (loss)
Sporting KC (loss)
Chicago (loss)
Philadelphia (win)
LA (loss)

I don't think he will pull off a winning record by the end of this string of games. Other teams have seen his tactics, and adjusted their strategies accordingly. I believe that we are seeing the last games that Paul Mariner will be in charge of this team. The great question is, when will he be fired (or re-assigned)? Just before season ticket renewals? At the end of the season? Some time in the off-season?

[iy12l]

I wonder if Mariner was also to blame for the 0-9 record of Winter. Wasn't he responsible for the signings? If he was then hes the jackass who brought Iro, Aceval, Caicedo, and Griffit. The FO doesn't know shit about signing a proper manager and technical staff. Everyone should boycott one of the home games this season so ML$E will start to get worried for once.

[starter]

I wonder if Bogers/MLSE will engage Klinsmann again?

[iy12l]

Lol type "worst team in the world" in the Google search bar and and 8 out of the first 10 are TFC related.

[jazzy]

I like the idea of boycotting 1 game

[gate7]

I like the idea of boycotting 1 game

easy for me to do since no one that i know wants to attend the games i cant anymore..

[Super]

I like the idea of boycotting 1 game

This is already in effect. Stadium is so empty it sends a massive message to MLSE.

[Shakes McQueen]

Lol type "worst team in the world" in the Google search bar and and 8 out of the first 10 are TFC related.

Well yeah, because all of the stories that comes to the top are about the specific Koevermans quote where he said that.

TFC may be a total managerial mess, and may very well be the worst team in MLS, but the worst team in the world? I highly doubt it. That's just our own local familiarity bias talking.

- Scott

[Dv23]

This is already in effect. Stadium is so empty it sends a massive message to MLSE.



But...But.... they always announce that we have 18,000 per game! Surely they must be telling the truth.

[ag futbol]

Well yeah, because all of the stories that comes to the top are about the specific Koevermans quote where he said that.

TFC may be a total managerial mess, and may very well be the worst team in MLS, but the worst team in the world? I highly doubt it. That's just our own local familiarity bias talking.

- Scott
Also worth noting that google searches can be biased by what you search in the past or by your I.P. address.


This is already in effect. Stadium is so empty it sends a massive message to MLSE.
You never know how that plays out in practice. For the willfully blind, like OTPP, they may very well have the wool pulled over their eyes by management types saying things like "initial hype has run out", "fans to finicky to accept MLS soccer", or statements like Anselmi made at the Mariner presser about being in charge but pleading ignorance for responsibility for the on-field product...

But overall, I do agree with you and hold out hope that Bogers will take a look at the massive turd these guys have served up and realize that some major changes are needed around here. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that we have more problems than simply who the head coach is.

[prizby]

really...so we are going to just keep firing away...when are we going to give a manager the proper amount of time to build the roster and the managers style into a decent MLS team...8 of the 10 managers that are sitting in a playoff spot right now were managing their team in 2010.

[Greatest Ripoff]

when are we going to give a manager the proper amount of time to build the roster and the managers style into a decent MLS team

Is two years not long enough to to build a roster? When Mariner became the head coach he said the roster was good enough and only needed a tweak. That there had been too much change and the roster needed stability. And not look what he has done? Does he get another two years?

[khso11]

im not a fan of switching managers too often, but due to the pressure of some/most of the fans, they might probably fire him or make him some next level director bs with BDK. But idk who they will bring in since our reputation is soooo poor. Maybe Pep Guardiola.....im dreaming.:drunk:

[ensco]

Lol type "worst team in the world" in the Google search bar and and 8 out of the first 10 are TFC related.

The worst team in world football the last 6 years has to be RC Strasbourg, relegated 4 times in 4 years, from Ligue Un in 2007-2008 right into amateur status. They are the only team with a longer losing streak than the 9 games we started with - they had an 11 gamer the year they went out of Ligue 2. Went bankrupt twice.

Supporters have never given up. But nobody else comes - they draw 2,000-3,000 in a beautiful stadium that seats 29,000. Bounced back to the fourth division this year.

These are sad times for Alsatian football - another former power, Metz, is in the third division. Hassli, in case you didn't know, is Alsatian.

Given no relegation, and the equalizing impact of the draft, we are pretty close second to that Strasbourg record of despair.

[Oldtimer]

That Strasbourg record is pretty appalling.

My own prediction depends on whether Anselmi is still in charge by year end. If he is, I think he will let Mariner go by the end of the year. If he isn't, and the new president of football is a Bogers appointee, then I would expect that a proper review will be taken, which might give Mariner another year. They would assume that his failure to achieve a good enough record may depend on several factors, not all necessarily in his control. They would want to investigate thoroughly.

[Pookie]

That Strasbourg record is pretty appalling.

My own prediction depends on whether Anselmi is still in charge by year end. If he is, I think he will let Mariner go by the end of the year. If he isn't, and the new president of football is a Bogers appointee, then I would expect that a proper review will be taken, which might give Mariner another year. They would assume that his failure to achieve a good enough record may depend on several factors, not all necessarily in his control. They would want to investigate thoroughly.

If Anselmi stays, I actually think a few wins will ensure that Mariner comes back next year.

For whatever reason, Mariner has well known media folks making excuses for him, singing his praises and spinning his record. Jason de Vos tends to highlight that he is a great coach to play for and that Mariner is inspiring the players in a way that Winter never could (despite CCL and end of 2011 season success... I added the last part).

Rongren (though obviously has a self preservation bias) is over the top with praise for their work ethic and was constantly reminding folks that we were actually "competitive" with SKC and a draw would be a good result.... despite the 3rd highest payroll in the league (I added that last part).

Larson in the Sun seems to be getting his info directly from Mariner and sometimes he was responsible for player acquisition and sometimes not.

A few wins would put the team in that category of "competitive for a playoff spot" that MLSE loves to spin. They could point to an improved record, key injuries that are hard to recover from and pull out the "what if book". I'm not sure that the average fan won't buy it.

Personally, I think it is moot when it comes to season ticket sales. Performance is one thing. Cost is something that I think most are realizing is now out of whack. While attendance is announced at 18,000+, clearly a good number of people ate the cost of their tickets this week and opted to not go or simply couldn't find someone to take them. How many hundreds of dollars are you prepared to throw away?

A price reset needs to be on the table for them to have any hope of salvaging a reasonable fan base.

[__wowza]

Is two years not long enough to to build a roster? When Mariner became the head coach he said the roster was good enough and only needed a tweak. That there had been too much change and the roster needed stability. And not look what he has done? Does he get another two years?

i'm just gonna to put this out there..

mariner was lying.

IE: he knew that he wasn't tell the truth. he was telling everyone what they wanted to hear in front of the press and his boss. could you imagine the questions he would get and the backlash if he said "well.. actually.. i'm not a fan of the 4-3-3, i'd like to do something else entirely. i'd like to do away with the players who don't fit the system, people like soolsma and plata, no need for 2 more forwards to weigh down the salary cap and sit on the bench"

we need to get over what he said. it's obvious that he knew what he was doing and what he said, so let's call a spade a spade.

[Canary10]

Mariner never should have been hired in the first place. I absolutely agree with what Prizby said, but the mistake was throwing out our tactical approach in hiring Mariner, and letting him walk in and blow out some decent pieces of our roster. That's where the reset happened. Correcting a wrong by keeping a guy who can't do the job doesn't correct the wrong, it just compounds it.

We're now down to 1.2 points per game under Mariner with some tough games ahead. We got our slight new manager bump, but just as it was with Plymouth Argyle when he coached there, it was a blip. We're now settling into a points per game that wouldn't make the playoffs. I hope Oldtimer is right, but I'm not so sure they will pull the plug. I hope there are looking around now, because if they do pull the plug a new manager would need to come in right at the end of the offseason to having any hope of success next year.

[Beach_Red]

That Strasbourg record is pretty appalling.

My own prediction depends on whether Anselmi is still in charge by year end. If he is, I think he will let Mariner go by the end of the year. If he isn't, and the new president of football is a Bogers appointee, then I would expect that a proper review will be taken, which might give Mariner another year. They would assume that his failure to achieve a good enough record may depend on several factors, not all necessarily in his control. They would want to investigate thoroughly.

"In charge" is always an open question with TFC. Anselmi admitted he needed board approval to replace Winter - likely because it meant paying out Winter's contract (and wasn't Preki still being paid out?) and there was probably a clause in Mariner's contract that if he took on more duties he got more money. So now firing Mariner would mean paying out the rest of his contract extension and paying a new manager (wow, how much would someone ask for to manage TFC? And what kind of terms and guarantees would they need to come here? Maybe that's why we never get anyone with experience) and didn't Anselmi also give Mo a contract extension that he had to pay out after firing him? How many times can Anselmi go to the board and ask for more money for TFC managers? If they'd put those board meetings on Gol, I might sign up for the channel... ;)

[Canary10]

"In charge" is always an open question with TFC. Anselmi admitted he needed board approval to replace Winter - likely because it meant paying out Winter's contract (and wasn't Preki still being paid out?) and there was probably a clause in Mariner's contract that if he took on more duties he got more money. So now firing Mariner would mean paying out the rest of his contract extension and paying a new manager (wow, how much would someone ask for to manage TFC? And what kind of terms and guarantees would they need to come here? Maybe that's why we never get anyone with experience) and didn't Anselmi also give Mo a contract extension that he had to pay out after firing him? How many times can Anselmi go to the board and ask for more money for TFC managers? If they'd put those board meetings on Gol, I might sign up for the channel... ;)

Ha! That's a very good question. That's why I tend to think we're going to be stuck with him.

[jaahuuu]

These are sad times for Alsatian football - another former power, Metz, is in the third division. Hassli, in case you didn't know, is Alsatian.
He played for Metz too, when they got relegated to Ligue 2 in 2002, and promoted back to Ligue 1 the next season.

[gate7]

I believe the good streak TFC had in July had nothing to do with Mariner taking over. Things had already turned around with Winter before Euro cup break... The problems here are not
at the coaching level. The coaching change was smoke in the air in order for Anselmi to stay off the radar. IMO!!

[[NBF]]

Im only assuming that when you guys say Bogers you mean Rogers as in Rogers Communications or you are referring to a man-like lizard that is the actual president of the team and pulling all the strings for MLSE.g:D Just a guess.

I find it good to hear that Anselmi has to go to the board of MLSE to discuss why he's firing a head coach. Its good to know that he actually has a boss which means that he does not have immunity in any of this mess. Sadly this team under Tom Anselmi reminds me alot of the Matt Millen saga in Detroit, the only difference is that Millen was directly involved in the player acquisitions/drafts and Anselmi has avoided any blame for player transfers.

Detroit Lions went 0-16 in 2008 before he got the boot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Millen

[SirBobSaget]

;1522128']Im only assuming that when you guys say Bogers you mean Rogers as in Rogers Communications or you are referring to a man-like lizard that is the actual president of the team and pulling all the strings for MLSE.g:D Just a guess.

I find it good to hear that Anselmi has to go to the board of MLSE to discuss why he's firing a head coach. Its good to know that he actually has a boss which means that he does not have immunity in any of this mess. Sadly this team under Tom Anselmi reminds me alot of the Matt Millen saga in Detroit, the only difference is that Millen was directly involved in the player acquisitions/drafts and Anselmi has avoided any blame for player transfers.

Detroit Lions went 0-16 in 2008 before he got the boot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Millen


Bell + Rogers -> Bogers, the Lizard Man overlord of Canada's Telecom Monopoly and soon to be owner of MLSE

[ensco]

He played for Metz too, when they got relegated to Ligue 2 in 2002, and promoted back to Ligue 1 the next season.

Metz are (or were) the Ajax of French football. Ribery, Pires, Adebayor, Saha, all came through there. But they are a cautionary tale of how it can go wrong - they never reinvested the proceeds from selling players properly, and pissed their fan base off.

But of course everyone wants to talk about Ajax and no one wants to talk about Metz (or Villareal, or a bunch of other clubs that were fairly successful at the player development side of the model, but couldn't figure out the whole enchilada).

Developing youth is no panacea.

[brad]

I believe the good streak TFC had in July had nothing to do with Mariner taking over. Things had already turned around with Winter before Euro cup break... The problems here are not
at the coaching level. The coaching change was smoke in the air in order for Anselmi to stay off the radar. IMO!!

I believe the streak coincides with having a fit and in form Danny K banging goals every game.

[Whoop]

While Ribery played for Metz, he wasn't part of their youth academy.

And Villareal for a team from a city of 50,000 was pretty successful in La Liga. Villareal's problem, which is more of a La Liga issue, is that once it became successful it started overreaching it's boundaries. They had to in order to compete. Call it the Leeds disease. But 5-6 years, Villareal was one of the more successful La Liga teams, outside of the Barca/Real duopoly.

[Whoop]

I believe the streak coincides with having a fit and in form Danny K banging goals every game.

This.

Club's record without Danny Koevermans is 1W, 6L, 1D

[OgtheDim]

I doubt he will be let go during this season. I can see a change occurring in November. But given the past history of this club, I can also see it being January.

[ensco]

While Ribery played for Metz, he wasn't part of their youth academy.

And Villareal for a team from a city of 50,000 was pretty successful in La Liga. Villareal's problem, which is more of a La Liga issue, is that once it became successful it started overreaching it's boundaries. They had to in order to compete. Call it the Leeds disease. But 5-6 years, Villareal was one of the more successful La Liga teams, outside of the Barca/Real duopoly.

I know something about Metz. I really know little about Villareal, so I will leave that out, shouldn't have raised it.

Just because Ribery wasn't an Academy guy there doesn't matter - he went there because of its reputation in producing young players (he had issues and needed help realizing his potential). Metz has at least another 20 name guys that came through the system there. A lot of them left for nothing - I know that Metz screwed up the handling of both Saha and Adebayor and got almost nothing for them. Metz were/are famous for being hardasses with their young players, tons of them complained after leaving (sound familiar?).

They have a great fan base/culture, draw from a very large area. I can tell you for sure that the fan base there became very grumpy about the endless selling/shuffling of players. Attendance plummeted, they had to sell more players .... hello third division. Interestingly one of the major beneficiaries are the Metz basketball team, which is doing very well. Plus more people go to rugby, handball, even hockey. They have (or give themselves) more choices than we do.

[Super]

This.

Club's record without Danny Koevermans is 1W, 6L, 1D

So pretty much equal to Winter. I'm very concerned moving forward. I want to like Mariner, but the results AND our style of play is just horrible. What's left to hang on to? Do we really want to keep Mariner for 2013 and flush another season? It's tough to know when to pull the plug, but so far I'm not impressed.

[T-boy]

So pretty much equal to Winter. I'm very concerned moving forward. I want to like Mariner, but the results AND our style of play is just horrible. What's left to hang on to? Do we really want to keep Mariner for 2013 and flush another season? It's tough to know when to pull the plug, but so far I'm not impressed.

What we need to work out/judge is this: DO we think that Mariner, given a whole off/pre season, can get either 1. results, 2. a more attractive style of football out of the team, or 3. both?

I personally think he can get better results given a whole pre-season with the squad. I have no concrete evidence for this other than I like his work ethic and the way he works with individual players. I'm not convinced either way that he can improve the attractiveness of the play, though. But, if we were winning games, I personally wouldn'd care too much about the style of play - that's just my personal thing tho.

[Whoop]

But wasn't Mariner part of the off/pre season this year? Or was he just twiddling his thumbs?

[Yohan]

Mariner's job under Winter was basically head scout. Do head scouts get fired all the time for failings of managers?

[T-boy]

But wasn't Mariner part of the off/pre season this year? Or was he just twiddling his thumbs?

He certainly wasn't part of training/tactics/working with players. He was sat up in an office somewhere with his shirt and tie tucked into his pants.

[Canary10]

He certainly wasn't part of training/tactics/working with players. He was sat up in an office somewhere with his shirt and tie tucked into his pants.


What?! Paul Mariner wore a suit and tie?!

[Canary10]

I'm not sure PM has the full respect of all the players. There was a moment in Wednesday's game against Portland where he was yelling like a madman at Ty Harden to take his throw-in from about 5 feet further up the pitch. Harden had a look like "are you fuckin' serious?" Of course, Hassli gave him a hug when he went off, so it's not everyone. But I think his style isn't universally appreciated by everyone. THe constant yelling and signalling can get distracting for players, especially supposed professionals.

[Whoop]

Mariner's job under Winter was basically head scout. Do head scouts get fired all the time for failings of managers?

Yes.

Sometimes the "head scout" gets let go before the coach/manager.

That's why if you terminated Winter, you should have terminated Mariner too. But Mariner got a 3 year extension instead.

[[NBF]]

I doubt he will be let go during this season. I can see a change occurring in November. But given the past history of this club, I can also see it being January.

C'mon Man!


You can say it with me...........Mey-eh!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KUJVIMzdr7U/T6O6KTf99RI/AAAAAAAAFq4/1_pZvZo5_cU/s1600/may.jpg

[Super]

I honestly think we need to wake up and smell the coffee: whatever Mariner is doing right now is NOT working. It's just not. It's a pityful product that shames us all. Our club is dying. I'm sick of it. We have absolutely zero respect in this league, and we're even a joke in our own city. We must set a standard and expect results. How many managers are given time like Mariner to "sort things out"? I just want to avoid flushing yet another season because we can't seem to get a manager with proper head coaching experience.

[TOBOR !]

This.

Club's record without Danny Koevermans is 1W, 6L, 1D

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-ash2/70444_100000541644112_1178053_n.jpg

[Whoop]

I just thought how dire it is.

If you had to select the Player of the Year for TFC this year who would it be?

I mean, really?

Right now my vote would go for Danny Koevermans and he's only played 16 league matches this year.

And given the curse of the RPB player of the year, I don't know if I'd want to vote for him.

Terry Dunfield for the win!

[jazzy]

really...so we are going to just keep firing away...when are we going to give a manager the proper amount of time to build the roster and the managers style into a decent MLS team...8 of the 10 managers that are sitting in a playoff spot right now were managing their team in 2010.

with all due respect , I respectfully disagree..;.. what do we do in the meantime? die of boredom?,...or completely lose the fans while the mgr fine tunes a horrible style of football.....even if we win playing like this (not happening),..I can't stand what ever is happening on the field presently. And when did we ever give Winter the players he wanted??..at least he had a long term vision...right now I see a retro old school fail.........I must admit simply yelling at men consistently throughout a game is a plan.? And I feel Mariners ideal choice of players is also suspect.....Toronto doesn't really need another another epic fail boring team.....aka hard workers , fringe players....what a shock it would be if for once this city went for broke ,.tried to win it all....instead of suits and accountants balancing every move.. just a thought

[West220Side]

This.

Club's record without Danny Koevermans is 1W, 6L, 1D

Add the beginning of the year when Koevermans wasnt on form (still Winters era)

[Super]

MLS results under Mariner: 5 defeats, 5 draws, 4 wins. Not horrible - all things considered. But my main concern is our lack of possession, and how we just don't even seem to be in games anymore now that our opponents have figured us out. I just think it's time to set a plan - and that includes an exit strategy - when it comes to Mariner. What do we expect? Certainly I expect play-offs next year. Demand, even. Not sure at this very moment that Mariner is the man who can make that happen. Not sure that he isn't either. But surely we must have an idea of what we need to see from this team before we hit the off-season.

[prizby]

Is two years not long enough to to build a roster? When Mariner became the head coach he said the roster was good enough and only needed a tweak. That there had been too much change and the roster needed stability. And not look what he has done? Does he get another two years?

i will argue because it is impossible to know, that many of the signings predating Mariner as the head coach were not his doing...we have all read the rumours that he and Winter didnt see eye to eye...I am sure there were many players they didnt see eye to eye on when they were signed.

The signings that I am pretty sure Mariner influenced were...Richard Eckersley, Reggie Lambe, and potentially the Alan Gordon trade and Jeremy Hall trade, potentially Silva and Maund (i'd put my money on it) and potentially Logan Emory (combined effort after they both saw him in the first game at the Disney Cup)...outside of that, I don't think he had much a hand in anymore of those transactions. They key to look at is what players does he talk highly of/did he talk highly of during his time not as manager; check the few TFC tv appearances he made...he's pretty much starting from scratch



Mariner never should have been hired in the first place. I absolutely agree with what Prizby said, but the mistake was throwing out our tactical approach in hiring Mariner, and letting him walk in and blow out some decent pieces of our roster. That's where the reset happened. Correcting a wrong by keeping a guy who can't do the job doesn't correct the wrong, it just compounds it.

We're now down to 1.2 points per game under Mariner with some tough games ahead. We got our slight new manager bump, but just as it was with Plymouth Argyle when he coached there, it was a blip. We're now settling into a points per game that wouldn't make the playoffs. I hope Oldtimer is right, but I'm not so sure they will pull the plug. I hope there are looking around now, because if they do pull the plug a new manager would need to come in right at the end of the offseason to having any hope of success next year.

we haven't completely abandonded and thrown out our tactical approach...i think the current tactics were simple, easy tactics to play with to get us through the season and put some points on the board with the mess of players we got on the roster...i can see the 4-3-3 approach coming back in the future especially with the academy progressing and developing players (we are still a couple years away from it being proper, I think-any talent we have is really due to players staying on with the academy instead of Europe for the time being and being extraordinary; they haven't been learning the system long enough to have fully developed 4-3-3 capable players. After watching the academy play last Friday, Winter's approach is fully entrenched with them; they play Winter's style a hell of a lot better than the first team ever did...other than crosses from corners or near the corner flag area, there might have been a half a dozen other instances when the ball was in the air above the waist...2 of the 4 goals were scored on diving headers from low crosses.

on a side note, the academy now has former West Ham Academy goalkeeper, Adam Street (or he's at least training with them; started on Friday)...I wonder how he rates in comparison to Q (I think he's 20 now)


Bell + Rogers -> Bogers, the Lizard Man overlord of Canada's Telecom Monopoly and soon to be owner of MLSE

I think it should be Begers or Beggers, because sooner or later they will be begging us to come back to BMO Field


with all due respect , I respectfully disagree..;.. what do we do in the meantime? die of boredom?,...or completely lose the fans while the mgr fine tunes a horrible style of football.....even if we win playing like this (not happening),..I can't stand what ever is happening on the field presently. And when did we ever give Winter the players he wanted??..at least he had a long term vision...right now I see a retro old school fail.........I must admit simply yelling at men consistently throughout a game is a plan.? And I feel Mariners ideal choice of players is also suspect.....Toronto doesn't really need another another epic fail boring team.....aka hard workers , fringe players....what a shock it would be if for once this city went for broke ,.tried to win it all....instead of suits and accountants balancing every move.. just a thought

i don't think the way we are playing right now is the long-term plan...you can call Mariner's choice of players suspect all you want, but I will point to the many seasons of success at New England he had with Nicol followed by the downfall of New England under Nicol once Mariner was gone

do you think we need to fire a 7th manager now? I mean firing the first 6 has seriously worked well for this club (looking at the 0 playoff appearances the continual firing of managers has got us)?

[Oldtimer]

Not all good assistants make good head coaches...

[Super]

Not all good assistants make good head coaches...

Amen to that. So let's stop being the place where all assistants get their first real break. Experience DOES matter!!

[jloome]

Banged out a column in frustration expressing my feelings on the whole thing. Didn't feel like shopping it around to anyone so here it is:

What a mess.

History really does repeat itself around Toronto FC. A corporate front office repeats the same boneheaded mistakes instead of handing full control over to an experienced, senior soccer man, and fans pay the price with another mess on the field.

If MLSE’s new owners aren’t paying attention, they should be: their golden goose is cooked, with even the most hardcore fans vowing to depart in even greater numbers in the coming off season.

It all comes down to what’s on the field, and it’s not good.

Players love Paul Mariner, because he backs them 100%. The problem is, most of TFC’s players don’t deserve 100% backing. Several simply aren’t good enough to start in MLS and never will be; others viciously underperform.

It mirrors a typical corporate management environment, where silo’ing and self-preservation are about being liked and who you can blame: a couple of overachievers, a couple of underperforming stars, and a bunch of guys who really shouldn’t be there, except that off the field, they all get along.

Cripes, how sad. What was an instant contender for league flagship and the principal reason MLS franchise values quadrupled between 2006 and 2009 is now barely clinging, with a half-empty stadium during some games despite ludicrous announced crowds of over 18,000. Game clips on the team’s site are heavily redacted from the versions on mlssoccer.com , to play down ineptitude.

Let’s see where we stand right now and compare it to right after John Carver left:



NOW: We’re managed by an ex-English league striker who arguably has gained a reputation for being duplicitous in his club dealings with his former boss.





THEN: We’re managed by an ex-English league striker who arguably has gained a reputation for being duplicitous in his dealing, period.





NOW: We’re assured that the club only needs a few small tweaks to be a contender. Instead, we see constant shuffling around of players, getting rid of the likes of Plata, Soolsma and DeGuzman, replacing them with players like Dunfield, Wiedeman and Maund, favored players who aren’t good enough or ready.




THEN: We’re assured that the club only needs a few small tweaks to be a contender. Instead, we see constant shuffling around of players and getting rid of the likes of Nagamura, Buddle, Dunivant and Marshall, in favor players like Samuel, Garcia and Lombardo, favored players who aren’t good enough or ready.




NOW: We’re told the team’s complete lack of tactical cohesion is down to a lack of preparation time because of the league’s grueling schedule, although players who leave say it’s down to insufficient preparation, period ( DeGuzman, Gordon)




THEN: After a bad loss in KC, We’re told the team’s complete lack of tactical cohesion is down to a lack of preparation time because of the league’s grueling schedule.


I think I’ve figured out TFC’s problem. Ask yourself this important question: have you ever seen Paul Mariner and Mo Johnston in the same room at the same time?


Seriously folks, we all know what they say about those who ignore history. So far, Mariner seems personable, and there’s been the odd comment about his positive coaching technique.

But we haven’t seen anything resembling tactical preparedness in positional preparation that accounts for their opposition with sufficient space to allow them to move and control the ball. This team’s movement is terrible. And when it starts to lag and ball watch, it becomes nearly static. Relying on players to simply hold position and beat the other team’s players one-on-one – which seems to be Toronto’s only real strategy -- isn't good enough. Even when players support, they’re usually behind the ball instead of parallel or moving into space, because we play dump and chase and one-on-one battles.

It’s ridiculous. IT’s the basic tactical approach of an amateur team in England circa 1970. And against a team that is tactically adept, that has good supporting movement all over the field and knows when to double team, or shift from zone to man and back, it’s going to lose a lot of football games.

You don ‘t have to be a coach to see this. Just watch the team, then check out its OPTA stats on the MLS website to confirm your suspicions. When the team was losing under Aron Winter, it at least had 75-85% pass completion and often had more of the ball. There was only ONE problem: he couldn’t motivate, and didn’t realize you have to play high-field pressure in MLS basically at all times to compete, as it’s the way to expose poor technique.

In the few games Winter did just that – after the player meetings in which Kocic stated openly it was required – the team looked pretty damn good.

Then they fired him. It was inevitable; the system could have worked, but only with a guy who could speak English well and motivate. And, potentially, with a front office signing productive players instead of the likes of Caicedo and Aceval, to shore up the defence.

Who was in charge of personnel? Oh yeah: Paul Mariner. Who does Mariner land as his first major defensive signing after becoming head coach? Irish International player of the year Darren O’Dea.

Strange that that couldn’t happen under Winter. With him, Mariner got us Columbus Crew castoff Andy Iro, a player who was dreadfully exposed when not anchored by the much smarter Chad Marshall.

Strange.

What isn’t strange is that the front office favored the back-slapping upbeat Mariner over the dour, serious and not-very-bilingual Winter. That’scorporate ownership for you.

In fact, that’s what this all comes down to, really: TFC reflects who put it together, a barely competent corporate-style amalgam of a couple of overachievers, a number of underachievers and a dozen or so guys swinging so far above their own weight class that they’ll make perfect sacrificial lambs when the team fails, to keep the other players from thinking it might…shudder….be collectively the fault of the players AND manager.

For a fan, it’s just sick to watch. Mariner obviously isn’t the answer. Any man who thinks he has a better handle on a player’s skill range than Sir Alex Ferguson – which is what playing Richard Eckerlsey as a centre half suggests --has lost the plot.

Eckersley is being played out of position. He’s a right back, and a decent one at that. He’s overly aggressive for MLS refs, but that can be worked on. But he needs the byline for his positional instincts to remain solid, which is why he keeps getting caught by guys cutting in behind him.

Similarly, Doneil Henry may actually benefit from his time playing wide, but ultimately he’s a centre half. He’s built as one, tackles well, marks well and has a huge vertical, to dominate the box. He needs muscle on his frame and time being taught to read the game and adjust positionally, which is his biggest weakness.

Logan Emory’s positional reading also suggest he is not competent to start in MLS. He has decent recovery skills …. But that’s faint praise for obvious reasons.

Terry Dunfield is beloved by some for his work ethic after he had two good games closing down lanes. Newsflash: Dunfield is not a good enough footballer to start in MLS. He wasn’t a good enough footballer to start at Bury in League Two, and he’s certainly not good enough here. Even under Winter’s system, his pass completion rate was less than 70% and most of those were backwards. He can’t tackle, and he’s too small to break up aerial balls or hold up the ball effectively.

And yet Mariner loves him. Why not? It’s about terrier tenacity, you see, not actual skill. Or both.

Ryan Johnson can’t finish in the box but creates so much he deserves a medal, as do Kocic, Ashtone Morgan and Reggie Lambe, all of whom never look worse than competent. Frings drifts in and out and is very slow; he’s also losing his co-ordination, as evidenced by a number of serious gaffes recently caused by lack of time on the ball. At least O’Dea looked good in his first start, and Hassli will help a little (although he’s a good player, not a world-class player, which Danny K most assuredly was).

But ultimately, there’s nothing to suggest Mariner has either a competent hold on the requisite skill levels in the modern MLS game, or on how to adjust tactically to a good team with the prior week’s preparation, often on short notice.

It’s the same old story.

O’Dea was a major pickup, and he might even be the line leader we’ve always needed. He surely looked it against KC. But TFC still lost, because it created nothing against a better team. If the only value to a line-leading centre half are the odd points we pick up against other league bottom feeders, TFC has, once again, no playoff prospects.

Of course, new owners can fix this. Start with a total front office purge: get rid anyone with any decision-making power from the last six years and start over. Seriously. You keep one and it turns out to be a bad apple, you have to start all over again.

Replace the club’s president with a veteran football man, and let him hire the people under him.

Then hire a veteran MLS coach with a winning tradition.

Does any of this seem that complicated? Does MLSE’s complete inability to pull it off make any other fans out there feel like Mugatu in Zoolander, screaming in vain that “I feel like I’m taking crazy pills”?!?

[Whoop]

Bravo Jeremy, bravo.

Too bad Mariner got a 3 year extension in May.

[starter]

Mariner using players out of their natural positions to secure immediate results. To succeed next year he miraculously needs to get 5-6 new competent players who does not need coaching, and can gell together in a heartbeat. Well this is not going to happen any time soon. The academy products are still few years away. I do not see him passing his vision of the game to players, since he hates talking formations/tactics. I feel this is not his strong suite. He can be a good assistant with a head coach sharing his basic understanding of the game, but he is simply out of his league to manage a team. And, yeah, I hate the on-field product much more then I hated loosing at the beginning of the season.

[prizby]

Not all good assistants make good head coaches...


Amen to that. So let's stop being the place where all assistants get their first real break. Experience DOES matter!!

Frank Klopas was a technical director before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Ben Olsen was an assistant before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Dominic Kinnear was an assistant before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Peter Vermes was a technical director before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Jason Kreis was a player who retired before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)

imagine that...half the managers sitting in a playoff spot didn't have any head coaching experience, were servicable in other areas before they got their "first real break"



In the few games Winter did just that – after the player meetings in which Kocic stated openly it was required – the team looked pretty damn good.

Then they fired him. It was inevitable; the system could have worked, but only with a guy who could speak English well and motivate. And, potentially, with a front office signing productive players instead of the likes of Caicedo and Aceval, to shore up the defence.

Who was in charge of personnel? Oh yeah: Paul Mariner. Who does Mariner land as his first major defensive signing after becoming head coach? Irish International player of the year Darren O’Dea.

Strange that that couldn’t happen under Winter. With him, Mariner got us Columbus Crew castoff Andy Iro, a player who was dreadfully exposed when not anchored by the much smarter Chad Marshall.

Strange.


strange? answer me this...who was making the personnel decisions...was it Winter or Mariner...if it was Winter, then how can you blame Mariner...if it was Mariner, prove it...you and I both know that neither of us know this decision, but I will suspect and venture a guess, that not every personnel decision was on Mariner's recommendation and were actually Winter's own ideas..or that of Earl Cochrane's...you are putting 100% of the player acquisition blame on Mariner...did he in fact have 100% control of who TFC acquired...I doubt it

[jazzy]

i don't think the way we are playing right now is the long-term plan...you can call Mariner's choice of players suspect all you want, but I will point to the many seasons of success at New England he had with Nicol followed by the downfall of New England under Nicol once Mariner was gone

do you think we need to fire a 7th manager now? I mean firing the first 6 has seriously worked well for this club (looking at the 0 playoff appearances the continual firing of managers has got us)?[/QUOTE]

yes firing the mgr now would be disastrous.............but we are ,..again in a huge hole,........now here's my problem ,...do I just by seasons,...not go to games till when ?, say end of next year when we might?,.(complete with more promises, along with same game pricing),...have an average team, or better, one that is at least interesting to watch. I certainly don't want to get into the I'm quitting the club, but god when is this team going to have a center/grounding.....
We let a upstart employee (yup, I said that, he's no coach..esp technically), become a coach again by simply being the next in line, and we saved some money there. Also we have a front office that don't give a shit about the team OR us because they are all playing the corporate game of covering their ass so they can be the next Petty and become independently wealthy. There is NO love of the game or will power to actually create a soccer dynasty in this city. It is the MLSE doctrine......btw find me a Sapputo that doesn't have his favourite soccer team, or game experience, yet they too are a big a corporation. You would never see Mariner within that organization. At least on the front lines....and they have a exciting team,....as many of the MLS teams are now. If anyone wants to see how bad we are watch any MLS game and see how exciting most are. We had the spirit with our youth catching the excitement. Now how do you think they feel. with some of these Maunds, Emory,.Hall..Amerka (lol). Weedman or whatever...whats wrong with Camargo,.just an example,. Etc,...and he failed to nurture Soolsma who has more talent than all those named.....Like the leafs we are now bringing in average players and over paying them....and they are simply not good enough.
So what do we do??.....Basically watch another dismal year, without excitement............and this is our fault??...This is what we get for spending tons of $$ and time, with a HUGE love of a sport and all our friends involved. Unfortunately things will get ugly with this present crew and I feel for these players!

[gate7]

MLS results under Mariner: 5 defeats, 5 draws, 4 wins. Not horrible - all things considered. But my main concern is our lack of possession, and how we just don't even seem to be in games anymore now that our opponents have figured us out. I just think it's time to set a plan - and that includes an exit strategy - when it comes to Mariner. What do we expect? Certainly I expect play-offs next year. Demand, even. Not sure at this very moment that Mariner is the man who can make that happen. Not sure that he isn't either. But surely we must have an idea of what we need to see from this team before we hit the off-season.


I dont disagree, but here's another stat: 1 out of possible 12 points in last 4 games...(or winless in 4 if u prefer) That alone
is enough to dump a coach in some leagues.

But anyway, Mariner is a flop and i dont care as long as they dont decide to dump the coach mid season again!!!

[narduch]

I have no problem firing Mariner now.

Give the new management team as much time as possible to start rebuilding this mess. I don't want the same mess after Preki was fired to occur again.

A new management team should have been hired in June. We are going to be behind once again. I doubt Mariner has what it takes to turn this around and he will eventually be sacrificed as well.

[trane]

Yes.

Sometimes the "head scout" gets let go before the coach/manager.

That's why if you terminated Winter, you should have terminated Mariner too. But Mariner got a 3 year extension instead.


As I said I thought Mariner shuold have been fired, he was part of the regime. BUT I could buy, that he is given a chance as an interm manager, BUT HOW THE FUCK DO YOU GIVE HIM A THREE YEAR EXTENSION. at best you give him a chance till the end of the season, so that you find a more permanent replacement, or he does something spetacular/miracolous to eardn the job. BUT GIVING HIM THE EXETENSION when they did when he was a big part of the team that started 0-9 is ridicolous.


I also have to say that while I thought Mariner did seem to turn things around to start with, he is clearly flatening out, and yes Danny K is a big part of it, but you cannot not be able to grind points without a key player and expect to keep your job. Winter could not use it as an excuse, and neither can Mariner. My only thing is who the fuck do they hire?? At this point anybody that hire, would be met with big time doubts by me, simply because MLSE hired him. Even if they brought Prandelli, I would have my doubts.

[jazzy]

^^^felt bad with my diatribe..written before I read ..jloome....perfectly thought-out as opposed to my rant ... .thank you for the effort, cause I think I'm losing it......remember people .....we have strong convictions because we love the game AND want to support a strong TFC.

[narduch]

Wouldn't surprise me at all if Mariner had a clause in his contract that stated he must be given a 3-year extension if he was made head coach.

I always believed that part of the reason Mariner was originally hired was so that a replacement for Winter was available in house.

Its just a shame for TFC fans that this has turned into the epic disaster that it is.

[narduch]

Banged out a column in frustration expressing my feelings on the whole thing. Didn't feel like shopping it around to anyone so here it is:



Thanks for sharing this. It was a great read.

Perfectly states why this team is such a mess.

[trane]

I have to confess since, the Euro's I have hardly watched TFC, I watch, but a half at most. Why?? because we haveregressed tactically. I was prepared to give it a change at first, because I thought with the tallent we would get some wins, and we did. We kept it simple and it helped us win games, but it is all too predictable, and Mariner is not building on it, which means it is bound to lead us no were.


No if this was TFC, management would be out there looking for a proper manager, but as this is TFC (MLSE) they are probably looking to bring back Mo.

[jazzy]

[QUOTE=prizby;1522234]Frank Klopas was a technical director before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Ben Olsen was an assistant before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Dominic Kinnear was an assistant before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Peter Vermes was a technical director before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Jason Kreis was a player who retired before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)

imagine that...half the managers sitting in a playoff spot didn't have any head coaching experience, were servicable in other areas before they got their "first real break"


but all of them are excellent tacticians....and have studied the mls game incredibly well..(and understand formations and players uniqueness within them)...if you ask them who do you think they would say knows more about the technical side of football...Mariner or Winter.......?...Simply put Mariner should have given Winter everything he wanted in players and been his rahrah guy...thats what was supposed to happen,.right , partners.......but something went wrong...you can only scream and shout for so long demanding 150% from 75% players. Eventually non-talent will bite you in the ass....ok so we ride out the season........then ?...sorry unless their is a huge corporate shit fit we are in for a completely changed stadium environment with non-soccer lovers, drunks and unknowing newbies who will be , 1 timers for sure.....because everyone was enamored with the tfc love-in...and game experience ,...which is going, going.......

[prizby]

yes firing the mgr now would be disastrous.............but we are ,..again in a huge hole,........now here's my problem ,...do I just by seasons,...not go to games till when ?, say end of next year when we might?,.(complete with more promises, along with same game pricing),...have an average team, or better, one that is at least interesting to watch. I certainly don't want to get into the I'm quitting the club, but god when is this team going to have a center/grounding.....
We let a upstart employee (yup, I said that, he's no coach..esp technically), become a coach again by simply being the next in line, and we saved some money there. Also we have a front office that don't give a shit about the team OR us because they are all playing the corporate game of covering their ass so they can be the next Petty and become independently wealthy. There is NO love of the game or will power to actually create a soccer dynasty in this city. It is the MLSE doctrine......btw find me a Sapputo that doesn't have his favourite soccer team, or game experience, yet they too are a big a corporation. You would never see Mariner within that organization. At least on the front lines....and they have a exciting team,....as many of the MLS teams are now. If anyone wants to see how bad we are watch any MLS game and see how exciting most are. We had the spirit with our youth catching the excitement. Now how do you think they feel. with some of these Maunds, Emory,.Hall..Amerka (lol). Weedman or whatever...whats wrong with Camargo,.just an example,. Etc,...and he failed to nurture Soolsma who has more talent than all those named.....Like the leafs we are now bringing in average players and over paying them....and they are simply not good enough.
So what do we do??.....Basically watch another dismal year, without excitement............and this is our fault??...This is what we get for spending tons of $$ and time, with a HUGE love of a sport and all our friends involved. Unfortunately things will get ugly with this present crew and I feel for these players!

im not disagreeing...im disagreeing with the idea of going through ANOTHER manager change will be beneficial for this club without having tried a manager for a long tenure...our track record shows we'll screw this up

[prizby]

[QUOTE=prizby;1522234]Frank Klopas was a technical director before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Ben Olsen was an assistant before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Dominic Kinnear was an assistant before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Peter Vermes was a technical director before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Jason Kreis was a player who retired before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)

imagine that...half the managers sitting in a playoff spot didn't have any head coaching experience, were servicable in other areas before they got their "first real break"


but all of them are excellent tacticians....and have studied the mls game incredibly well..(and understand formations and players uniqueness within them)...if you ask them who do you think they would say knows more about the technical side of football...Mariner or Winter.......?...Simply put Mariner should have given Winter everything he wanted in players and been his rahrah guy...thats what was supposed to happen,.right , partners.......but something went wrong...you can only scream and shout for so long demanding 150% from 75% players. Eventually non-talent will bite you in the ass....ok so we ride out the season........then ?...sorry unless their is a huge corporate shit fit we are in for a completely changed stadium environment with non-soccer lovers, drunks and unknowing newbies who will be , 1 timers for sure.....because everyone was enamored with the tfc love-in...and game experience ,...which is going, going.......

funny...they were all given plenty of time at their job too

[Super]

Frank Klopas was a technical director before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Ben Olsen was an assistant before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Dominic Kinnear was an assistant before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Peter Vermes was a technical director before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)
Jason Kreis was a player who retired before he became the head coach (or got his 'first' break)

imagine that...half the managers sitting in a playoff spot didn't have any head coaching experience, were servicable in other areas before they got their "first real break"

That list doesn't help us much. They'd probably all fail here.

Yeah, some other clubs have had success with promoting guys to the big gig - but we haven't. In fact, we're pretty damn horrible at it. Every time we get a new coach it's always a promotion. I mean, really? Why can't we find experience out there? Are we that toxic?

I honestly think that TFC is very different than most other teams, and that the culture of losing and the MLSE setup with Anselmi (a non-football guy) calling the shots to blame for our failed club. But honestly, I have never been impressed by ANY of our coaches, next time I would like to see a guy who has actually done the job before. I mean, by your logic we should probably give Cochrane a shot next time around.

Hire experience next time, please. Let's try something different.

[Yohan]

Interesting read jeremy. Deffo some thought provoking stuff.

This is my take on mariner so far. Mariner is playing classic Bruce Arena hoofball. With a team with no real talent, very conservative play. With some more talent in the squad, more individual freedom and more possession based play. Both system is counter attack based, high pressure on defence.
Watch LA play witb no.Becks, Donovan and with Becks and donovan. Clear difference in style.

Whether its his fault or not, mariner doesnt think hes got a squad suited to play mls counter attack hoofball properly. Mid summer transfer window is hard to find decent players esp if you dont have salary.cap space and int spots. Losinf your star striker throws helluva wrench into your plan.
i suspect mariner picked up guys like amarikwa and wiedeman because they are cheap depth players. Utility guys that every mls teams need to fill in for few games but not expected to start often.

I think mariner will be better judged after winter transfer window, esp see who he brings in from inside the league.

Im not convinced mariner is the right guy, but since we are stuck with him, he deserves a bit more time to prove hinself as head coach. Because even with best managers in the league, even they would be hard pressed to get results with current tfc squad

[starter]

I would normally be against changing manager so soon, but Mariner is just the worst of the bunch we have had for many fundamental reasons, and the sooner we cut our losses here the better.
Bogers would need to engage 3rd party again, or IMO choose any of Rongen/BDK.

[Yohan]

[QUOTE=jazzy;1522244]

funny...they were all given plenty of time at their job too
Yallop would be out of the job at SJ right now if SJ ownership didnt be patient with him. Though to be fair hes got more resume than mariner

[Super]

Yallop would be out of the job at SJ right now if SJ ownership didnt be patient with him. Though to be fair hes got more resume than mariner

Frank Yallop = Decade+ as head coach
Paul Mariner = 3 months or so as head coach

Way bigger resume. 2 MLS Cup's with San Jose first time around. Managed Canada. LA Galaxy. I'd happily hire a guy that won 2 MLS Cup's - any day. SHOCKED we didn't snatch him up when LA pushed him out to make way for Ruud Gullit.

[Super]

Even if they brought Prandelli, I would have my doubts.

No learning on the job for Prandelli. We need a master to fix the wrong that has been done to this club.

[Yohan]

No learning on the job for Prandelli. We need a master to fix the wrong that has been done to this club.
Any foreign coach faces steep learning curve in mls. Dont matter who you are due to funny mls rules.

And tfc supporters would probably hang him.if he does fix the club within 10 games lol

[Oldtimer]

Jeremy, that was a fantastic post. It says virtually everything that needs to be said.
I hope those who are wishfully thinking will look at it in detail, it really is an inditement of what's wrong with this club.

[DoubleUp]

So pretty much equal to Winter. I'm very concerned moving forward. I want to like Mariner, but the results AND our style of play is just horrible. What's left to hang on to? Do we really want to keep Mariner for 2013 and flush another season? It's tough to know when to pull the plug, but so far I'm not impressed.

This.

[ag futbol]

You know, I don't care who you bring in as the manager, unless he is accompanied by his own staff or at least another scout or two, this team will continue to shit the bed.

The surrounding staff, to me at least, look pretty damn weak. That's going to be a hindrance to anyone who's going to try and get things done here. It's time to look at who's doing what, and cull the weak.

[jloome]

I have to confess since, the Euro's I have hardly watched TFC, I watch, but a half at most. Why?? because we haveregressed tactically. I was prepared to give it a change at first, because I thought with the tallent we would get some wins, and we did. We kept it simple and it helped us win games, but it is all too predictable, and Mariner is not building on it, which means it is bound to lead us no were.


No if this was TFC, management would be out there looking for a proper manager, but as this is TFC (MLSE) they are probably looking to bring back Mo.

I'm not even sure how to qualify the level of failure and incompetence. Seriously, how arrogant or dumb do these guys have to be to not realize they're listening to the wrong guys, when the results are the roadmap to success equivalent of trying to drive to Mexico from Toronto without going through the U.S.?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: logic and intelligence have very little to do with why most people are put in positions of trust involving tens of millions of dollars. They should be the key factors, but the reality is that those traits tend to annoy people -- most of us make about 80% of our decisions with strong influence by subconscious belief cues, so we identify first with people like us, not those who offer logistical alternatives that require hard work, realism and humility.

[jloome]

Interesting read jeremy. Deffo some thought provoking stuff.

This is my take on mariner so far. Mariner is playing classic Bruce Arena hoofball. With a team with no real talent, very conservative play. With some more talent in the squad, more individual freedom and more possession based play. Both system is counter attack based, high pressure on defence.
Watch LA play witb no.Becks, Donovan and with Becks and donovan. Clear difference in style.

Whether its his fault or not, mariner doesnt think hes got a squad suited to play mls counter attack hoofball properly. Mid summer transfer window is hard to find decent players esp if you dont have salary.cap space and int spots. Losinf your star striker throws helluva wrench into your plan.
i suspect mariner picked up guys like amarikwa and wiedeman because they are cheap depth players. Utility guys that every mls teams need to fill in for few games but not expected to start often.

I think mariner will be better judged after winter transfer window, esp see who he brings in from inside the league.

Im not convinced mariner is the right guy, but since we are stuck with him, he deserves a bit more time to prove hinself as head coach. Because even with best managers in the league, even they would be hard pressed to get results with current tfc squad

This might be realistic. But even if 100% true it wouldn't discount his performance as director of play personnel under winter, or the decision to take that tactical approach instead of stayng with a possession-ased game, blended with high pressure. It works for RSL, Seattle, San Jose and KC.

It also doesn't excuse the positional experimentation, which hasn't helped at all. Eckersley is not a CB, and that seems obvious to me; equally, aside from games where we've had enough time in the other end that Dunfield has basically been an anchor man, he's just not good enough. People can talk about stats not telling the tale all they want, but sometimes they're glaring. No possession and half the complete tackles in most games, no passes through the midfield, instead headmanning it, so we kill nothing on the clock in terms of possession time....

I know what you're saying and what he's trying, but right now it's embarrassing to watch.

[Yohan]

This might be realistic. But even if 100% true it wouldn't discount his performance as director of play personnel under winter, or the decision to take that tactical approach instead of stayng with a possession-ased game, blended with high pressure. It works for RSL, Seattle, San Jose and KC.

It also doesn't excuse the positional experimentation, which hasn't helped at all. Eckersley is not a CB, and that seems obvious to me; equally, aside from games where we've had enough time in the other end that Dunfield has basically been an anchor man, he's just not good enough. People can talk about stats not telling the tale all they want, but sometimes they're glaring. No possession and half the complete tackles in most games, no passes through the midfield, instead headmanning it, so we kill nothing on the clock in terms of possession time....

I know what you're saying and what he's trying, but right now it's embarrassing to watch.i agree that watching ugly ball sucks, espsince its not effective right now. But playing/experimenting mls players out of position is not just a mariner thibg, but pretty much every manager in mls does it

[__wowza]

im not disagreeing...im disagreeing with the idea of going through ANOTHER manager change will be beneficial for this club without having tried a manager for a long tenure...

this


So pretty much equal to Winter. I'm very concerned moving forward. I want to like Mariner, but the results AND our style of play is just horrible. What's left to hang on to? Do we really want to keep Mariner for 2013 and flush another season? It's tough to know when to pull the plug, but so far I'm not impressed.

to this.

they both have the same issues, records without danny koev, and the backline, but i agree with the both of you, i really want a manager who can sit down with the club and really put their spin on things for a solid two or three seasons. unfortunately, that person is not paul mariner. i remember the conversation before, way back when, would you rather lose in an attractive match or grind out a win? the losses under winter were some very attractive matches, the wins we're getting under mariner are grinded out. HOWEVER, the losses under mariner are probably the downright worst displays of soccer i've seen from this club in our history.

if we stick with mariner, it's because we needed a manager to stick around for a few seasons to add stability to the organization. that comes the commitment that for the next 2+ years we're going to be playing ugly hoofball.

[Super]

Any foreign coach faces steep learning curve in mls. Dont matter who you are due to funny mls rules.

And tfc supporters would probably hang him.if he does fix the club within 10 games lol

Steep learning curve, sure, but that's part of the game. Ideally we would get a guy who knows the game inside and out, and not as an assistant, but someone who knows how to deal with the pressure that is almost exclusively on the head coach - and not the assistant or anyone else. Someone who comes up with smart tactical decisions. Someone who is not going to have us out-played every game - like Mariner. The guy is out there, and we can keep flushing seasons until we smarten up and actually hire him.

Or we can wait it out, pull the plug on Mariner next May/June, and then promote Earl Cochrane - because we just LOVE to promote guys around here. Then he'll shit the bed, and we'll continue to wonder why. We'll point to other clubs who successfully promoted guys (although usually they have a very different background than our promoted guys) and instead of hiring a proper manager, we'll find other guys to promote. Jimmy Brennan will get the next shot. He'll shit the bed. Danny Dichio. He'll shit the bed. Season 2037 we finally hire an experienced guy, a proven guy, and we finally make the play-offs.

TFC takes a while to learn lessons. No wonder we have every negative record known to the MLS.

[ryan]

If Jim Brennan manages this club, I won't even watch free illegal streams. That's my breaking point for MLSE fuckery.

[Beach_Red]

I'm not even sure how to qualify the level of failure and incompetence. Seriously, how arrogant or dumb do these guys have to be to not realize they're listening to the wrong guys, when the results are the roadmap to success equivalent of trying to drive to Mexico from Toronto without going through the U.S.?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: logic and intelligence have very little to do with why most people are put in positions of trust involving tens of millions of dollars. They should be the key factors, but the reality is that those traits tend to annoy people -- most of us make about 80% of our decisions with strong influence by subconscious belief cues, so we identify first with people like us, not those who offer logistical alternatives that require hard work, realism and humility.


Yes, this really looks like the beginning of the WHA when all kinds of hucksters and crooks owned and managed teams. It seems crazy that MLSE would be on the same level as Nelson Skalbania, but here we are.

[Gazza]

If Jim Brennan manages this club, I won't even watch free illegal streams. That's my breaking point for MLSE fuckery.

I agree. But Brennan being the intern between Mariner and the next experiment is not that far-fetched. I don't think i could bring myself to watch one game with Brennan at the helm.

[Yagbod]

Every time I see this thread I think it is a call to march for the end of Mariner. Driving me nuts. Sorry for trolling.

[__wowza]

Every time I see this thread I think it is a call to march for the end of Mariner. Driving me nuts. Sorry for trolling.

hahaha, i thought the exact same thing when i saw the title.

[ensco]

If we weren't close to this, we wouldn't be thinking so much about this as a "question". It's not a question. He will be gone soon, everyone knows it. Coaches hired by Anselmi last less than a year here. That's the only way to bet it. Heavily.

I increasingly think (assuming the deal closes, what is the holdup? hmmm) that Bogers will blow everything up. Not just TFC, all of it, at all the teams.

When you think about it, how can they not? When you inherit this level of suckitude, the riskier move is to believe the crap existing mgmt is feeding you.

Bogers will rely on Garber/Abbott to find a President. It's a different, bigger mandate than the one MLSE gave to MLS when they hired Mo. Don't be surprised if we get a President who is a complete unknown, from deep within one of the existing MLS teams. I hope to God it works this time.

[jabbronies]

If we weren't close to this, we wouldn't be thinking so much about this as a "question". It's not a question. He will be gone soon, everyone knows it. Coaches hired by Anselmi last less than a year here. That's the only way to bet it. Heavily.

I increasingly think (assuming the deal closes, what is the holdup? hmmm) that Bogers will blow everything up. Not just TFC, all of it, at all the teams.

When you think about it, how can they not? When you inherit this level of suckitude, the riskier move is to believe the crap existing mgmt is feeding you.

Bogers will rely on Garber/Abbott to find a President. It's a different, bigger mandate than the one MLSE gave to MLS when they hired Mo. Don't be surprised if we get a President who is a complete unknown, from deep within one of the existing MLS teams. I hope to God it works this time.

I agree with what you are saying, but isn't leaving it up to someone else to get a president similar to what this team has been doing for the past 6 years; leaving it up to someone else to the work?

[ensco]

I agree with what you are saying, but isn't leaving it up to someone else to get a president similar to what this team has been doing for the past 6 years; leaving it up to someone else to the work?

Yes. But I think that can work, it just never worked with Anselmi et al. There are enough examples of winning corporate owners, it's pension funds that can't/shouldn't own teams.

My assumption is that (i) Bogers will want a hockey or TV rights guy as MLSE CEO, and (ii) that person won't have any idea what to do with TFC.

We could totally luck out and get an MLSE CEO who knows MLS (eg an Ivan Gazidis - not that I can imagine how Gazidis could possibly be available)

[OgtheDim]

.... SHOCKED we didn't snatch him up when LA pushed him out to make way for Ruud Gullit.

Was Cochrane shaping decisions back then? Cause the CSA and Yallop don't get along from what I've heard.

[pekduck]

^ (@ravi to @ensco's original post)
at the current rate, any top level change (chance of success) is better than no change (zero success).

[jloome]

i agree that watching ugly ball sucks, espsince its not effective right now. But playing/experimenting mls players out of position is not just a mariner thibg, but pretty much every manager in mls does it

But rarely when they already have better alternatives. I honestly think Eckersley, as good a tackler and marker as he is, is positionally more unsound there than Doneil Henry would be. It may be that Mariner thinks Henry needs to learn to play more with the ball at his feet, and this is a delberate experiential thing, but I don't get that sense, not when he leaves Eckersley there when Henry subs off and then plays Morgan on his wrong foot.

[starter]

I remember as TFC players were upset at Winter for playing a certain game with too defensive formation. I wonder if the players [who are left] enjoying their tactics under new management.

[v00d00daddy]

I remember as TFC players were upset at Winter for playing a certain game with too defensive formation. I wonder if the players [who are left] enjoying their tactics under new management.

My guess is that Avila is not at all happy. I seem to remember a halftime interview several games ago where he was very frustrated and said that they have to keep possession of the ball more. I'd imagine that what hes been watching from the bench has been tough to swallow.

Another guy I think is pissed is Frings. It's pure speculation on my part but I think his disinterest and drop in play has almost directly coincided with the implementation of Mariners tactics and, more specifically, the recent realisation that the initial results were likely a blip on the radar. I think he sees his role being further and further reduced and I'd bet he don't like it one bit. Again...pure bullshit speculation on my part. Lol

[Pookie]

Yes. But I think that can work, it just never worked with Anselmi et al. There are enough examples of winning corporate owners, it's pension funds that can't/shouldn't own teams.

My assumption is that (i) Bogers will want a hockey or TV rights guy as MLSE CEO, and (ii) that person won't have any idea what to do with TFC.

We could totally luck out and get an MLSE CEO who knows MLS (eg an Ivan Gazidis - not that I can imagine how Gazidis could possibly be available)

But a MLSE CEO might not have anything to do with either of the teams.

Burke reports directly to the Board now. So does Colangelo. Mariner needs to go through Anselmi to get to the Board. Neither is going to accept a new "boss."

MLSE'S new org chart could like like this:






Board of Directors
(Rogers, Bell, Tannenbaum)




President
President

President
President


TML (Burke)
Raptors (Colangelo)

TFC
(TBD)
Business Development (Anselmi)





Neither President would have any input or decision making power to influence each of those portfolios. Each sets a budget. Each gets that approved and allocates resources, hires, fires, invests, etc.

That might not be a bad thing.

[ensco]

Burke reports directly to the Board now. So does Colangelo. Mariner needs to go through Anselmi to get to the Board. Neither is going to accept a new "boss."





















Who cares what Burke and Colangelo want or think? This is exactly why I think they will conclude they have to blow it up. What a screwed up setup. Burke, Colangelo, Anselmi, all of them have to go.

Start over with the right overall CEO (say Gazidis, I know we can't get him, but that's the sort of guy). Go from there.

[Pookie]

^ the issue is that they have contracts. I know Burke specifically made it a condition of accepting the job that he would have a direct line to the board. To alter that would enter into a HR and legal world of "constructive dismissal" which could get really messy at a time when the new owner wants to give hope.

Not saying that any have done anything to deserve a contract renewal, just saying that there is structure that could happen in which Anselmi sees his promotion and we see the end of his leadership

[Beach_Red]

^ the issue is that they have contracts. I know Burke specifically made it a condition of accepting the job that he would have a direct line to the board. To alter that would enter into a HR and legal world of "constructive dismissal" which could get really messy at a time when the new owner wants to give hope.

Not saying that any have done anything to deserve a contract renewal, just saying that there is structure that could happen in which Anselmi sees his promotion and we see the end of his leadership


If what Bell did at CTV is any indication, don't worry about contracts. If they want to make changes, they'll make them.

[Pookie]

^ I don't spend much time worrying about Brian Burke's contact ;) He's doing ok.

[starter]

My guess is that Avila is not at all happy. I seem to remember a halftime interview several games ago where he was very frustrated and said that they have to keep possession of the ball more. I'd imagine that what hes been watching from the bench has been tough to swallow.

Another guy I think is pissed is Frings. It's pure speculation on my part but I think his disinterest and drop in play has almost directly coincided with the implementation of Mariners tactics and, more specifically, the recent realisation that the initial results were likely a blip on the radar. I think he sees his role being further and further reduced and I'd bet he don't like it one bit. Again...pure bullshit speculation on my part. Lol

Avila having spent a lot on the bench for Winter as well, has ended up playing well in a different positions, including a forward ( under AW ). He can not crack a roster with kinds of Widermans in. Without wide players, TFC limited to playing through the middle and there is too much traffic there for Avila/TFC to be effective. I do not see other technical players to be overly happy, but they still not confident enough to advise Mariner to play more offensive formation. Apparently Plata was suggesting it to PM, and next thing he is on the plane to Ecuador.

OT, I am surprised with general level of complacency ( not in this thread though ) toward Mariner, having the team playing as ugly as it does. Canadian TV commentators bending over backwards to admire clear lines of 4 in initial formation, being blind to the fact that the substance is not here any more. We secured a few more useless points this year, but have been set back by years in building a competitive squad. Can not wait for Bogers to clean up the mess!

[Initial B]

I think Bogers will probably leave Colangelo alone, since he seems to have a plan in place and the new coach has really improved them defensively. They actually might be the first MLSE team to make the playoffs in the last 8 years.

As for Burke, he's made mistakes, but he did put together Team USA that reached silver in Vancouver. He at least has some pedegree and I think Bogers will wait to see if he can turn it around.

As for Anselmi, you can't compare him with the other two - they have plans. Tom just flies by the seat of his pants, grasping desperately at straws. Attendance has remained fairly static in Hockey and Basketball, but the decline in soccer attendance on TV can't be ignored. If anything, since he is the most underperforming of the bunch, Bogers would do well to make an example of TFC as an object lesson to the Leafs and Raptors organizations and houseclean TFC at the start of their tenure. It's pretty much an expansion team at this point anyways.

[Beach_Red]

^ I don't spend much time worrying about Brian Burke's contact ;) He's doing ok.


No, I meant that... oh, you know what I meant...

[v00d00daddy]

OT, I am surprised with general level of complacency ( not in this thread though ) toward Mariner, having the team playing as ugly as it does. Canadian TV commentators bending over backwards to admire clear lines of 4 in initial formation


I know this will be read as inflammatory but I'll say it anyway.

Take a look at where the play by play and colour guys learned the game and played the game and you get your answer as to why Mariners awful approach to football finds praise. Lol

[Beach_Red]

I know this will be read as inflammatory but I'll say it anyway.

Take a look at where the play by play and colour guys learned the game and played the game and you get your answer as to why Mariners awful approach to football finds praise. Lol

Well, the team is now owned by the broadcaster so it's unlikely we're ever going to hear anything but praise.

[v00d00daddy]

Well, the team is now owned by the broadcaster so it's unlikely we're ever going to hear anything but praise.

True enough. I've asked a few of the TFC media to ask Mariner to confirm or deny the 3 yr contract extension and I still wait. Lol

I hope JMO will do it.

But I fear they've already asked in private, know the answer, and have been told its off the record.

Why else would it take so long to get confirmation of this?

[starter]

I know this will be read as inflammatory but I'll say it anyway.

Take a look at where the play by play and colour guys learned the game and played the game and you get your answer as to why Mariners awful approach to football finds praise. Lol

I myself grew up with 442 being the prevalent system, but football did not stop developing since. Watched QPR/Swansea on the weekend, what an excellent display of 433 that was, and easy on eyes as well. PM clearly is not the guy to lead TFC, even if he manages to add a few more points this season.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Avila having spent a lot on the bench for Winter as well, has ended up playing well in a different positions, including a forward ( under AW ). He can not crack a roster with kinds of Widermans in. Without wide players, TFC limited to playing through the middle and there is too much traffic there for Avila/TFC to be effective. I do not see other technical players to be overly happy, but they still not confident enough to advise Mariner to play more offensive formation. Apparently Plata was suggesting it to PM, and next thing he is on the plane to Ecuador.

OT, I am surprised with general level of complacency ( not in this thread though ) toward Mariner, having the team playing as ugly as it does. Canadian TV commentators bending over backwards to admire clear lines of 4 in initial formation, being blind to the fact that the substance is not here any more. We secured a few more useless points this year, but have been set back by years in building a competitive squad. Can not wait for Bogers to clean up the mess!

Complacency in Canadian commentary or overall fanbase? I think there are plenty concerned with the lack of results and why. As for Canadian commentary I rather enjoy bias in my broadcast. It puts the passion into the game that many NA broadcasts try to suck out.

Set back years? I think that a bit melodramatic. With the DP's we have we can rebuild to compete better than we have in the last season within a year. Teams do it in this league EVERY year.

[ensco]

The contracts mean nothing in the scheme of things. Burke has two years left, $6 million total. Say Colangelo would be owed the same. If you want to go another way, do you really let a $12 million hit (ie one half of 1% of the price you paid) get in the way?

Both these guys are already singing a different tune about who they'll report to, I guarantee it.

[starter]

Complacency in Canadian commentary or overall fanbase? I think there are plenty concerned with the lack of results and why. As for Canadian commentary I rather enjoy bias in my broadcast. It puts the passion into the game that many NA broadcasts try to suck out.

Set back years? I think that a bit melodramatic. With the DP's we have we can rebuild to compete better than we have in the last season within a year. Teams do it in this league EVERY year.

I like some of that stuff you are smoking. :hump:
I am hearing that other teams did this within a year or so for ages as well. You will excuse me if I am not quite sold that [under this management] we just going to leapfrog them next year.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I like some of that stuff you are smoking. :hump:
I am hearing that other teams did this within a year or so for ages as well. You will excuse me if I am not quite sold that [under this management] we just going to leapfrog them next year.

Were we talking about present management?

I wasn't.

I was saying teams turn it around from basement dweller to competitor every year. We can too.

[ag futbol]

Set back years? I think that a bit melodramatic. With the DP's we have we can rebuild to compete better than we have in the last season within a year. Teams do it in this league EVERY year.
The way I always look at TFC and the CSA to a certain extent is this: the means to improve are always within reach and the potential always exists... But the drive to actually do the right thing is never there.

When it boils down to it this club has a lot of things going for it, but until the front office gets sorted out on all levels we won't be able to take advantage of it.

Having a president who actually knows what he's doing like ensco suggested would be the best sign I could think of.

[T-boy]

The way I always look at TFC and the CSA to a certain extent is this: the means to improve are always within reach and the potential always exists... But the drive to actually do the right thing is never there.

When it boils down to it this club has a lot of things going for it, but until the front office gets sorted out on all levels we won't be able to take advantage of it.

Having a president who actually knows what he's doing like ensco suggested would be the best sign I could think of.

I don't totally buy into the president thing. There are MANY big football clubs around the world who are owned by people who have no idea about football or running a club. But, it really depends on WHO is the person pulling the strings? If Anselmi is actually the person in charge of making the football club work, then its never going to work. But if he gives up the reigns to the manager fully, then it can work. I'd be fine right now if Mariner was given a run at the whole show - but I suspect that isn't the case. I'm sure any decision Mariner currently makes, has to then go through Anselmi. That's never going to work. You can't have a sports club run by a business man. You need to have a sports club run by a sportsman given the budget by a business man.

[[NBF]]

I don't totally buy into the president thing. There are MANY big football clubs around the world who are owned by people who have no idea about football or running a club. But, it really depends on WHO is the person pulling the strings? If Anselmi is actually the person in charge of making the football club work, then its never going to work. But if he gives up the reigns to the manager fully, then it can work. I'd be fine right now if Mariner was given a run at the whole show - but I suspect that isn't the case. I'm sure any decision Mariner currently makes, has to then go through Anselmi. That's never going to work. You can't have a sports club run by a business man. You need to have a sports club run by a sportsman given the budget by a business man.

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/873391/873391,1326403612,1/stock-photo-crossroads-sign-with-solutions-related-names-in-every-direction-92597575.jpg

[BayernTFC]

Bogers will rely on Garber/Abbott to find a President. It's a different, bigger mandate than the one MLSE gave to MLS when they hired Mo. Don't be surprised if we get a President who is a complete unknown, from deep within one of the existing MLS teams. I hope to God it works this time.

Uggghhhh. What you are suggesting is exactly what has been going on with TFC since inception. If Belgers does indeed follow that path, then there is no real hope for Toronto FC. MLSE is the franchisee. framing things in such a way as to suggest that MLSE gives a mandate to MLS is beyond misleading. However, it does suit the "just hang around guys and things will be different this time around, I promise" garbage that pervades TFC and MLS. It also fits in with your notion that corporate headquarters will get it right this time by sending in a star employee to help this struggling local McDonald's turn things around and sell those Big Mac's with the best of them. Bell/Rogers need to lay out the model that shows how and when TFC will go from being just a franchise to an actual team. Otherwise, Bell and Rogers should focus their efforts on giving Toronto a real team. Judging by the dwindling attendance numbers, there may not be that much real interest in another heavily managed, boring NA league.

I have been amazed at the contempt shown by some on this forum for the only air of real football around TFC, namely ACC and CCL play. Endless whining about results in a US league which holds scant meaning to a Canadian team. TFC can't be relegated. What does finishing atop the table get TFC? Certainly not a good draft pick, that's for sure. What's in it for TFC to outlast everyone else in a short knockout tournament at season's end? An engraving on a US trophy? An even lower draft pick? Establishing a winning tradition is important, but being competitive in MLS would be enough. MLS play should have been secondary, but price gouging insured a misguided focus and sky high expectations for MLS success.

There are some real players on the pitch, but TFC is just a franchise. Hopefully Bell/Rogers understands where the real money is:

The Confederation of North, Central American and Caribbean Association Football (CONCACAF) announced today that it has signed a four-year agreement with FOX Soccer to broadcast the CONCACAF Gold Cup and CONCACAF Champions League.

The deal starts with the current Champions League season, continuing through the 2015-2016 edition. It also covers the 2013 and 2015 Gold Cups, giving FOX Soccer exclusive English-language rights in the United States to both of CONCACAF’s showpiece events.


Read more here: http://blog.thenewstribune.com/soccer/2012/08/14/four-year-ccl-gold-cup-deal-for-fox-soccer/#storylink=cpy

http://blog.thenewstribune.com/soccer/2012/08/14/four-year-ccl-gold-cup-deal-for-fox-soccer/


It's harder to build something yourself, but it's more rewarding. Even lower skilled football becomes exciting if Canadian teams are competing against each other in fixtures with meaning. Think about what multiple Canadian teams in CCL would mean?

[Super]

I don't totally buy into the president thing. There are MANY big football clubs around the world who are owned by people who have no idea about football or running a club. But, it really depends on WHO is the person pulling the strings? If Anselmi is actually the person in charge of making the football club work, then its never going to work. But if he gives up the reigns to the manager fully, then it can work. I'd be fine right now if Mariner was given a run at the whole show - but I suspect that isn't the case. I'm sure any decision Mariner currently makes, has to then go through Anselmi. That's never going to work. You can't have a sports club run by a business man. You need to have a sports club run by a sportsman given the budget by a business man.

If the man pulling the strings is clueless it's even more important to hire a head coach with a big resume.

[ag futbol]

I don't totally buy into the president thing. There are MANY big football clubs around the world who are owned by people who have no idea about football or running a club. But, it really depends on WHO is the person pulling the strings? If Anselmi is actually the person in charge of making the football club work, then its never going to work. But if he gives up the reigns to the manager fully, then it can work. I'd be fine right now if Mariner was given a run at the whole show - but I suspect that isn't the case. I'm sure any decision Mariner currently makes, has to then go through Anselmi. That's never going to work. You can't have a sports club run by a business man. You need to have a sports club run by a sportsman given the budget by a business man.
I disagree. If anything, the history of this club suggests we need someone above the manager to put limits on their activity when called for.

This would have prevented things like Mo Johnston signing team crippling contracts, Preki turning over more of the roster than called for, and if we want to speculate: the abandonment of the long term plan that was sold to SSH's just over a year ago. Push comes to shove, a lot of guys are doing risky things that work for their benefit in the short term, but aren't in the interest of the club in the long run. We need people who know the game who are above the manager to put the brakes on at the right time. You can't count on someone who's on shakey ground to make those decisions when left to his own devices.

[ag futbol]

I have been amazed at the contempt shown by some on this forum for the only air of real football around TFC, namely ACC and CCL play. Endless whining about results in a US league which holds scant meaning to a Canadian team. TFC can't be relegated. What does finishing atop the table get TFC? Certainly not a good draft pick, that's for sure. What's in it for TFC to outlast everyone else in a short knockout tournament at season's end? An engraving on a US trophy? An even lower draft pick? Establishing a winning tradition is important, but being competitive in MLS would be enough. MLS play should have been secondary, but price gouging insured a misguided focus and sky high expectations for MLS success.

I really don't share this view.

First, I think you'd have to acknowledge that the CCL has more than it's share of problems. Terrible teams on the low-end of the scale, really wonky officiating, and Mexican teams that are really one foot in when it comes to their commitment. Grand prize: get curb stomped by Barca at the club world cup, while they put all the effort into it as they would a charity game. Will this all grow in importance over time? sure. But for now, I think it's better in theory than it is in practice.

Second, I'd estimate about 75% of our games are in the league. Pretty hard to discount the thing we spend most of our time doing no? On average, I'd say the competition is better and the comparable quality of the competition makes it more interesting.

[Beach_Red]

Uggghhhh. What you are suggesting is exactly what has been going on with TFC since inception. If Belgers does indeed follow that path, then there is no real hope for Toronto FC. MLSE is the franchisee. framing things in such a way as to suggest that MLSE gives a mandate to MLS is beyond misleading. However, it does suit the "just hang around guys and things will be different this time around, I promise" garbage that pervades TFC and MLS. It also fits in with your notion that corporate headquarters will get it right this time by sending in a star employee to help this struggling local McDonald's turn things around and sell those Big Mac's with the best of them. Bell/Rogers need to lay out the model that shows how and when TFC will go from being just a franchise to an actual team. Otherwise, Bell and Rogers should focus their efforts on giving Toronto a real team. Judging by the dwindling attendance numbers, there may not be that much real interest in another heavily managed, boring NA league.

I have been amazed at the contempt shown by some on this forum for the only air of real football around TFC, namely ACC and CCL play. Endless whining about results in a US league which holds scant meaning to a Canadian team. TFC can't be relegated. What does finishing atop the table get TFC? Certainly not a good draft pick, that's for sure. What's in it for TFC to outlast everyone else in a short knockout tournament at season's end? An engraving on a US trophy? An even lower draft pick? Establishing a winning tradition is important, but being competitive in MLS would be enough. MLS play should have been secondary, but price gouging insured a misguided focus and sky high expectations for MLS success.

There are some real players on the pitch, but TFC is just a franchise. Hopefully Bell/Rogers understands where the real money is:

http://blog.thenewstribune.com/soccer/2012/08/14/four-year-ccl-gold-cup-deal-for-fox-soccer/


It's harder to build something yourself, but it's more rewarding. Even lower skilled football becomes exciting if Canadian teams are competing against each other in fixtures with meaning. Think about what multiple Canadian teams in CCL would mean?

Is it really possible to build something yourself without constant rivalry? Facing a bunch of different central American teams every year would be a very hard sell in any city but especially in Toronto. Most people here would like to beat Montreal, Vancouver, LA and New York over and over.

Your other point is a good one, though, the future of MLS doesn't seem as bright as it did a couple of years ago. Whether that has to do with MLS mismanagement or just the fact that the sports market is already overcrowded in the USA doesn't matter. That may affect Bogers investment in TFC more than anything else.

[Whoop]

I myself grew up with 442 being the prevalent system, but football did not stop developing since. Watched QPR/Swansea on the weekend, what an excellent display of 433 that was, and easy on eyes as well. PM clearly is not the guy to lead TFC, even if he manages to add a few more points this season.

This.

Swansea loses Rodgers and Laudrup slides right in and don't miss a beat.

[jazzy]

so how the hell does Mariner play Santos.......?.........boy we could get killed so bad in this one, maybe with our backs against the wall a miracle happens.??

What will he see fitting to play a team on a different level...tonight Santo 5 Aguila 0......will he just line them up across the field ,......this is the last big game of the season n'cest

pas?...unless we win of course.....right now I do wish Winter was coaching,...foolish maybe but we'd win and i believe a hell of a game.

[jloome]

I know this will be read as inflammatory but I'll say it anyway.

Take a look at where the play by play and colour guys learned the game and played the game and you get your answer as to why Mariners awful approach to football finds praise. Lol

It is inflammatory, because it isn't true; but it's not deliberately inflammatory, LOL.

I've worked in the media for 23 years; sports announcers are taught to stick to a narrative, and we had immediate success when he took over. That's all it is. Until the broadcast types get wind from an outside source (or see the record get worse and worse) they'll stick with the narrative of his brilliance.

I would also say in their (slight) defence that he does seem to be a better motivator, although one wonders how long that will last if there aren't wins with it.

[T-boy]

This.

Swansea loses Rodgers and Laudrup slides right in and don't miss a beat.

Not to take away from your argument and Swansea's display - but QPR was fucking awful! Worst premiership display I've seen in a long time!

[ryan]

Not to take away from your argument and Swansea's display - but QPR was fucking awful! Worst premiership display I've seen in a long time!

You didn't watch Norwich then did you?

:(

[T-boy]

You didn't watch Norwich then did you?

:(

Yeah I didn't see any of that! I'm surprised at QPR though - I thought they were moving in the right direction at the end of last season. I guess we will see the next week if QPR were THAT bad, or if Swansea were THAT good. But watching Jonathan's play in that game - we definitely got the WRONG De Guzman at TFC!

[Whoop]

Regardless, Swansea didn't miss a beat. And they never changed the vision of their club even with a new coach.

[ryan]

Regardless, Swansea didn't miss a beat. And they never changed the vision of their club even with a new coach.

Yep, that is the point.

Tommy Boy is just deflecting the conversation to avoid that! :D lololol

[v00d00daddy]

It is inflammatory, because it isn't true; but it's not deliberately inflammatory, LOL.

I've worked in the media for 23 years; sports announcers are taught to stick to a narrative, and we had immediate success when he took over. That's all it is. Until the broadcast types get wind from an outside source (or see the record get worse and worse) they'll stick with the narrative of his brilliance.

I would also say in their (slight) defence that he does seem to be a better motivator, although one wonders how long that will last if there aren't wins with it.

See...I don't know how the media works and appreciate your viewpoint cause it's an area where Im left to talk about what I think is happening. Thanks.

I just can't let go of the fact that the vast majority of people in major media (and most smaller outlets too) writing about and commentating on football in Canada have ties to the UK.

Allegiances that go to that part of the world and, often not always, a bias that leans that way. Which is all fine and good cause I assume it's natural.

I'm just frustrated that it has to permeate into Canadian soccer because I think it's a huge part of the reason why soccer in this country has been spinning it's wheels for decades.

People need to be given a balanced viewpoint so that they can make their minds up themselves. Unfortunately here in Canada you get to watch uk based football, listen to pundits talk about Canadian football....almost all of whom were raised on a healthy diet of uk based football.

We're even given a Toronto team that has always had a uk flavour dominating.

And we finally adopt a different way of thinking and it's scrapped quickly in favour of...you guessed it. Same old, same old.

And what do our commentators do? Defend it. Lol

It's farcical.

[Canary10]

See...I don't know how the media works and appreciate your viewpoint cause it's an area where Im left to talk about what I think is happening. Thanks.

I just can't let go of the fact that the vast majority of people in major media (and most smaller outlets too) writing about and commentating on football in Canada have ties to the UK.

Allegiances that go to that part of the world and, often not always, a bias that leans that way. Which is all fine and good cause I assume it's natural.

I'm just frustrated that it has to permeate into Canadian soccer because I think it's a huge part of the reason why soccer in this country has been spinning it's wheels for decades.

People need to be given a balanced viewpoint so that they can make their minds up themselves. Unfortunately here in Canada you get to watch uk based football, listen to pundits talk about Canadian football....almost all of whom were raised on a healthy diet of uk based football.

We're even given a Toronto team that has always had a uk flavour dominating.

And we finally adopt a different way of thinking and it's scrapped quickly in favour of...you guessed it. Same old, same old.

And what do our commentators do? Defend it. Lol

It's farcical.

I agree with what jloome said about this, but it doesn't have to be the case. There is actually critical commentary pretty much everyone other than Canada it seems (other than bloggers here). I find Jason De Vos the worst of it - he writes a lot personally about the new youth development models that are focused on skillls etc, while also complimenting Mariner for dumbing his system down to it's most basic, skill-less components. He's not at all consistent on this.

And to everyone pointing out the Norwich result...thanks!

[Canary10]

Regarding Swansea, I have to repeat this quote from the Guardian that I put in another thread because it's so apt.

"The clarity of Swansea's vision has made replacing managers and players relatively seamless."

[TOBOR !]

Yeah I didn't see any of that! I'm surprised at QPR though - I thought they were moving in the right direction at the end of last season. I guess we will see the next week if QPR were THAT bad, or if Swansea were THAT good. But watching Jonathan's play in that game - we definitely got the WRONG De Guzman at TFC!

Did somebody say 'The Wrong DeGuzman' ?

http://64.13.252.151/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2608&d=1284874405

[Canary_canuck]

I was going to reply to Whoop by pointing to the opposite result of a manager change with post Lambert Norwich ( my favourite team ) getting thumped by Fulham. With the two teams trounced 5- 0 last Saturday playing each other this weekend ( QPR and Norwich ) it will be interesting to see who shows the better mental resilience. I think Chris Hughton( the new Norwich manager ) is capable and cling to the slender reed of Norwich losing their first game ( at home no less ) in League One 7 - 1 and within two years were back in the Premiership ( mind you, under a different manager ). Norwich's play on Saturday was very similar to TFC's recently with long balls thumped hopefully out from the back, letting the opponant come right back with relentless pressure on the defense.

[TOBOR !]

I was going to reply to Whoop by pointing to the opposite result of a manager change with post Lambert Norwich ( my favourite team ) getting thumped by Fulham. With the two teams trounced 5- 0 last Saturday playing each other this weekend ( QPR and Norwich ) it will be interesting to see who shows the better mental resilience. I think Chris Hughton( the new Norwich manager ) is capable and cling to the slender reed of Norwich losing their first game ( at home no less ) in League One 7 - 1 and within two years were back in the Premiership ( mind you, under a different manager ). Norwich's play on Saturday was very similar to TFC's recently with long balls thumped hopefully out from the back, letting the opponant come right back with relentless pressure on the defense.

I remember that. It was against Colchester, and the 'keeper was that Australian national reserve, IIRC. I don't think he saw another match afterwards.

edit - LOL - fact checking has uncovered this : http://www.soccer-academy.com.au/

[Beach_Red]

See...I don't know how the media works and appreciate your viewpoint cause it's an area where Im left to talk about what I think is happening. Thanks.

I just can't let go of the fact that the vast majority of people in major media (and most smaller outlets too) writing about and commentating on football in Canada have ties to the UK.

Allegiances that go to that part of the world and, often not always, a bias that leans that way. Which is all fine and good cause I assume it's natural.

I'm just frustrated that it has to permeate into Canadian soccer because I think it's a huge part of the reason why soccer in this country has been spinning it's wheels for decades.

People need to be given a balanced viewpoint so that they can make their minds up themselves. Unfortunately here in Canada you get to watch uk based football, listen to pundits talk about Canadian football....almost all of whom were raised on a healthy diet of uk based football.

We're even given a Toronto team that has always had a uk flavour dominating.

And we finally adopt a different way of thinking and it's scrapped quickly in favour of...you guessed it. Same old, same old.

And what do our commentators do? Defend it. Lol

It's farcical.

Ties to the UK are common in a lot of industries in Canada (well, in Ontario anyway, but we usually think of ourselves as Canada ;)).

But I think that has very little to do with why professional soccer as a spectator sport is spinning its wheels here. The sports market is incredibly competitive. We're linked closely to the US when it comes to media (you think soccer has ties to the UK, try working in TV and see what foreign domination is really like ;)) and soccer has a long way to go in the US. In fact, this may be as big as soccer gets in the US.

[Canary_canuck]

You know your stuff Tobor!

[v00d00daddy]

Ties to the UK are common in a lot of industries in Canada (well, in Ontario anyway, but we usually think of ourselves as Canada ;)).

But I think that has very little to do with why professional soccer as a spectator sport is spinning its wheels here. The sports market is incredibly competitive. We're linked closely to the US when it comes to media (you think soccer has ties to the UK, try working in TV and see what foreign domination is really like ;)) and soccer has a long way to go in the US. In fact, this may be as big as soccer gets in the US.

Makes total sense but I'm less interested in how big the sport can get here in terms of popularity as a spectator sport and more concerned about how we can make up the ground in the enormous gap between us and the US and Mexico.

I'd like to see canada do well on all levels by producing better players.

The UK monopoly on all facets of football in this country has caused a lot of problems in that regard and I'd hoped that the archaic thinking wouldn't bleed into TFC.

But it has. The one time we steered away from it we u turned right back and are at the back of the line again.

And it's such a huge mountain to climb because the love for the uk game has permeated into every facet of Canadian and Toronto football. From the commentators, to the several facets of the club, and even the manner in which the club is supported.

It's literally a choke hold on progress.

[Oldtimer]

Going back to my first post, which started this thread, I predicted:


Columbus (predict tie)
Houston (loss)
Santos Laguna (loss)
Sporting KC (loss)
Chicago (loss)
Philadelphia (win)
LA (loss)

It's even more dire than I predicted. I now fully expect Mariner to be fired by the end of the season.

[nonc]

there never seems to be much fuss on the bench side stands but i really hope some people have (or have had) it in them to give it to Mariner at BMO. never wanted it for Winter, but God, some Mariner heckling seems in order.

[billyfly]

0-4-1 in last five.

[narduch]

0-4-1 in last five.

Its like Preki de ja vu all over again.

I'm thinking that Mariner is married to Anselmi. If Anselmi survives the inevitable Bell/Rogers purge of MLSE, Mariner will live to see the 2013 season.

[ag futbol]

Its like Preki de ja vu all over again.

I'm thinking that Mariner is married to Anselmi. If Anselmi survives the inevitable Bell/Rogers purge of MLSE, Mariner will live to see the 2013 season.
I don't know... I could see someone stepping in for Anselmi leaving Mariner in place for a year while he measures everything up.... makes a nice soft target just like when Burke fired the last leafs coach to bring in his guy.

Either way he'd be going down... question is when?

[tfcocd]

Going back to my first post, which started this thread, I predicted:
Columbus (predict tie)
Houston (loss)
Santos Laguna (loss)
Sporting KC (loss)
Chicago (loss)
Philadelphia (win)
LA (loss)
It's even more dire than I predicted. I now fully expect Mariner to be fired by the end of the season.

Given they are 0-4-1 now and according to your prediction they would become 1-8-1 in league play that is barely better than Winter's start this year. It would be very suprising if he wasn't fired. The only way I can see him surviving that kind of failure is pulling a rabbit out of the hat and bringing in a coach that was somehow viewed positively and create/ move into an executive position with the club to save his job.

[Suds]

Its like Preki de ja vu all over again.

I'm thinking that Mariner is married to Anselmi. If Anselmi survives the inevitable Bell/Rogers purge of MLSE, Mariner will live to see the 2013 season.

Anselmi was pretty clear it was his call to make Mariner the coach during the press conference. This one is 100% on him.

I'm sure TFC/MLSE execs all had a cover your ass meeting so any mistake could not be put on any one person. But I stand by the belief I've had for years. Anselmi knows jack shit about running a sports organization. The culture of an organization starts at the top our culture has been rotten has been for years. There is no pride in playing for this franchise. You can see it every time the players take the field. I put this soley at the foot of Anselmi's door. I would never wish anyone to lose thier job but Anselmi and everyone he has hired on the foorball playing side of TFC should go.

[ryan]

0-4-1 in last five.

Now where's Asif making smarmy remarks on Twitter about those criticizing hoofball? Oh, has he gone quiet?

Talk about knee jerk reactions when people with half a brain saw through it all.

[Suds]

Mariner not going anywhere any time soon so not much point in talking about the next coach.


John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro) So for those of you calling for Mariner to be fired and a new coach brought in either now or for start of next season, it won't happen.

Expand (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238685328364412929)
15m (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684909865168896) https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2533043285/j9veg4fdlfuafn0z0wu2_normal.jpeg John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro)
... To stabilize team this season, bring in a few more players in off-season and let him really make the club his own next year.

Expand (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684909865168896)
16m (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684608282116096) https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2533043285/j9veg4fdlfuafn0z0wu2_normal.jpeg John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro)
Biggest thing I took away from our chat was Mariner is here to stay. They're pleased with direction he's taken team and will be given time..

Expand (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684608282116096)
17m (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684359136272384) https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2533043285/j9veg4fdlfuafn0z0wu2_normal.jpeg John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro)
... Order to get to know me and hear my take on things.

Expand (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684359136272384)
18m (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684199207460864) https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2533043285/j9veg4fdlfuafn0z0wu2_normal.jpeg John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro)
Just finished meeting with Anselmi. Didn't really interview him, it was more of a chat. Said he'd been meaning to invite me to lunch in...

[mastermixer]

If I could find a GIF of me turning into the Hulk in anger I would post it right now. This club is fucked.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

If I could find a GIF of me turning into the Hulk in anger I would post it right now. This club is fucked.

Until this moment I had been giving thought to renewing my season tickets, but no longer. Maybe my Bro's still enough of a sucker, though.

[Auzzy]

Mariner not going anywhere any time soon so not much point in talking about the next coach.



Well Anselmi can do lots of talking; so can we. Maybe instead of a Mariner replacement, we need to be talking about the Anselmi replacement first. I can't believe the gall he has chatting like that after 6 years of epic ineptitude.

As I mentioned in the "new coach" thread, if the new ownership fires Anselmi or moves him away from TFC, then it doesn't matter what he says about Mariner. However, I'm afraid that Anselmi is just starting the season ticket renewal PR push. That's gonna go over like a lead balloon.

[spark]

Jeez so many things wrong here. Why wouldn't he be brought in as an interim head coach? At least he's on trial and has to prove himself with results first before this BS of getting a chance to build his own team (jeez Di Matteo had to win the friggin Champions League to get his shot). So many things are sketchy here big time - how can you name your head coach and 'director of soccer' without looking at ANYONE else!? I can't wait to hear how they are going to spin this team in the offseason like it's actually heading in a direction.

[Oldtimer]

Until this moment I had been giving thought to renewing my season tickets, but no longer. Maybe my Bro's still enough of a sucker, though.

You and probably 9,999 others.

[T-boy]

You and probably 9,999 others.

I'm the 1 other then! :p

[Oldtimer]

If you want to attend the occasional match, you'll have no difficulties doing so.
You'll be able to get great discounts on Groupon. Maybe they'll expand the Pizza Pizza free TFC tickets with a Pizza deal to be more than the occasional one-off.
Bell/Rogers will want a full stadium so that it shows well on TV.

Maybe they'll even figure out Tom A. is responsible for this sorry mess and re-assign him to real-estate deals.

[T-boy]

Agreed oldtimer. I will only renew as I'm in the middle of 113 and pay not much, and like the atmosphere in that section. Anywhere else in the stadium, I wouldn't be renewing (both because of the price AND I love 113 so much that I don't want to give up my seat in that area of the stadium). I don't think anybody on the side of the field will be able to justify buying season tickets next year - it would make any sense - you could easily get tickets as you suggest - plenty of deals, coupons, giveaways will be available.

[v00d00daddy]

Mariner not going anywhere any time soon so not much point in talking about the next coach.


John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro) So for those of you calling for Mariner to be fired and a new coach brought in either now or for start of next season, it won't happen.

Expand (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238685328364412929)
15m (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684909865168896) https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2533043285/j9veg4fdlfuafn0z0wu2_normal.jpeg John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro)
... To stabilize team this season, bring in a few more players in off-season and let him really make the club his own next year.

Expand (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684909865168896)
16m (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684608282116096) https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2533043285/j9veg4fdlfuafn0z0wu2_normal.jpeg John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro)
Biggest thing I took away from our chat was Mariner is here to stay. They're pleased with direction he's taken team and will be given time..

Expand (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684608282116096)
17m (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684359136272384) https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2533043285/j9veg4fdlfuafn0z0wu2_normal.jpeg John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro)
... Order to get to know me and hear my take on things.

Expand (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684359136272384)
18m (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/238684199207460864) https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2533043285/j9veg4fdlfuafn0z0wu2_normal.jpeg John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro (https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro)
Just finished meeting with Anselmi. Didn't really interview him, it was more of a chat. Said he'd been meaning to invite me to lunch in...

Well...silver lining is that I won't have to attend any future town halls cause jmo just found out what I was wondering.

Season tickets done for me now. No renewal. I'll go to games if/when I feel like it.

It's a shame but they've pushed to the brink and today's news shoved me over. Lol

Also...these tweets leads me to believe that Mariner was in fact extended back in may and brought down to train with the team then to usher in the new coach.

I find the FO's actions and Mariners involvement sickening. He can hug his players as much as he wants but the man is a snake.

When he was tasked with helping Winter succeed he was also playing a part in his failure and ultimate demise.

Winter fucked things up a ton in terms of results but he was obviously fighting both players not executing what he was asking of them AND a colleague that was hurting him instead of helping him.

It's pathetic.

Coincidentally...anyone notice Mariner offering up the same "players aren't doing what I asked of them" excuse that people around here chastised Winter for?

Lol

What a shit show

[Whoop]

Don't think a town hall will solve anything this year other than just more anger.

[Whoop]

Still early days but Swansea looks good so far.

[leafsman]

if mariner stays im not renewing, this past few months of games are putting me to sleep. Will be interesting to see what TFC does at renewal time, price drop may make me stay also but thats not going to happen

[Alonso]

Banged out a column in frustration expressing my feelings on the whole thing. Didn't feel like shopping it around to anyone so here it is:

What a mess.

History really does repeat itself around Toronto FC. A corporate front office repeats the same boneheaded mistakes instead of handing full control over to an experienced, senior soccer man, and fans pay the price with another mess on the field.

If MLSE’s new owners aren’t paying attention, they should be: their golden goose is cooked, with even the most hardcore fans vowing to depart in even greater numbers in the coming off season.

It all comes down to what’s on the field, and it’s not good.

Players love Paul Mariner, because he backs them 100%. The problem is, most of TFC’s players don’t deserve 100% backing. Several simply aren’t good enough to start in MLS and never will be; others viciously underperform.

It mirrors a typical corporate management environment, where silo’ing and self-preservation are about being liked and who you can blame: a couple of overachievers, a couple of underperforming stars, and a bunch of guys who really shouldn’t be there, except that off the field, they all get along.

Cripes, how sad. What was an instant contender for league flagship and the principal reason MLS franchise values quadrupled between 2006 and 2009 is now barely clinging, with a half-empty stadium during some games despite ludicrous announced crowds of over 18,000. Game clips on the team’s site are heavily redacted from the versions on mlssoccer.com , to play down ineptitude.

Let’s see where we stand right now and compare it to right after John Carver left:



NOW: We’re managed by an ex-English league striker who arguably has gained a reputation for being duplicitous in his club dealings with his former boss.





THEN: We’re managed by an ex-English league striker who arguably has gained a reputation for being duplicitous in his dealing, period.





NOW: We’re assured that the club only needs a few small tweaks to be a contender. Instead, we see constant shuffling around of players, getting rid of the likes of Plata, Soolsma and DeGuzman, replacing them with players like Dunfield, Wiedeman and Maund, favored players who aren’t good enough or ready.




THEN: We’re assured that the club only needs a few small tweaks to be a contender. Instead, we see constant shuffling around of players and getting rid of the likes of Nagamura, Buddle, Dunivant and Marshall, in favor players like Samuel, Garcia and Lombardo, favored players who aren’t good enough or ready.




NOW: We’re told the team’s complete lack of tactical cohesion is down to a lack of preparation time because of the league’s grueling schedule, although players who leave say it’s down to insufficient preparation, period ( DeGuzman, Gordon)




THEN: After a bad loss in KC, We’re told the team’s complete lack of tactical cohesion is down to a lack of preparation time because of the league’s grueling schedule.


I think I’ve figured out TFC’s problem. Ask yourself this important question: have you ever seen Paul Mariner and Mo Johnston in the same room at the same time?


Seriously folks, we all know what they say about those who ignore history. So far, Mariner seems personable, and there’s been the odd comment about his positive coaching technique.

But we haven’t seen anything resembling tactical preparedness in positional preparation that accounts for their opposition with sufficient space to allow them to move and control the ball. This team’s movement is terrible. And when it starts to lag and ball watch, it becomes nearly static. Relying on players to simply hold position and beat the other team’s players one-on-one – which seems to be Toronto’s only real strategy -- isn't good enough. Even when players support, they’re usually behind the ball instead of parallel or moving into space, because we play dump and chase and one-on-one battles.

It’s ridiculous. IT’s the basic tactical approach of an amateur team in England circa 1970. And against a team that is tactically adept, that has good supporting movement all over the field and knows when to double team, or shift from zone to man and back, it’s going to lose a lot of football games.

You don ‘t have to be a coach to see this. Just watch the team, then check out its OPTA stats on the MLS website to confirm your suspicions. When the team was losing under Aron Winter, it at least had 75-85% pass completion and often had more of the ball. There was only ONE problem: he couldn’t motivate, and didn’t realize you have to play high-field pressure in MLS basically at all times to compete, as it’s the way to expose poor technique.

In the few games Winter did just that – after the player meetings in which Kocic stated openly it was required – the team looked pretty damn good.

Then they fired him. It was inevitable; the system could have worked, but only with a guy who could speak English well and motivate. And, potentially, with a front office signing productive players instead of the likes of Caicedo and Aceval, to shore up the defence.

Who was in charge of personnel? Oh yeah: Paul Mariner. Who does Mariner land as his first major defensive signing after becoming head coach? Irish International player of the year Darren O’Dea.

Strange that that couldn’t happen under Winter. With him, Mariner got us Columbus Crew castoff Andy Iro, a player who was dreadfully exposed when not anchored by the much smarter Chad Marshall.

Strange.

What isn’t strange is that the front office favored the back-slapping upbeat Mariner over the dour, serious and not-very-bilingual Winter. That’scorporate ownership for you.

In fact, that’s what this all comes down to, really: TFC reflects who put it together, a barely competent corporate-style amalgam of a couple of overachievers, a number of underachievers and a dozen or so guys swinging so far above their own weight class that they’ll make perfect sacrificial lambs when the team fails, to keep the other players from thinking it might…shudder….be collectively the fault of the players AND manager.

For a fan, it’s just sick to watch. Mariner obviously isn’t the answer. Any man who thinks he has a better handle on a player’s skill range than Sir Alex Ferguson – which is what playing Richard Eckerlsey as a centre half suggests --has lost the plot.

Eckersley is being played out of position. He’s a right back, and a decent one at that. He’s overly aggressive for MLS refs, but that can be worked on. But he needs the byline for his positional instincts to remain solid, which is why he keeps getting caught by guys cutting in behind him.

Similarly, Doneil Henry may actually benefit from his time playing wide, but ultimately he’s a centre half. He’s built as one, tackles well, marks well and has a huge vertical, to dominate the box. He needs muscle on his frame and time being taught to read the game and adjust positionally, which is his biggest weakness.

Logan Emory’s positional reading also suggest he is not competent to start in MLS. He has decent recovery skills …. But that’s faint praise for obvious reasons.

Terry Dunfield is beloved by some for his work ethic after he had two good games closing down lanes. Newsflash: Dunfield is not a good enough footballer to start in MLS. He wasn’t a good enough footballer to start at Bury in League Two, and he’s certainly not good enough here. Even under Winter’s system, his pass completion rate was less than 70% and most of those were backwards. He can’t tackle, and he’s too small to break up aerial balls or hold up the ball effectively.

And yet Mariner loves him. Why not? It’s about terrier tenacity, you see, not actual skill. Or both.

Ryan Johnson can’t finish in the box but creates so much he deserves a medal, as do Kocic, Ashtone Morgan and Reggie Lambe, all of whom never look worse than competent. Frings drifts in and out and is very slow; he’s also losing his co-ordination, as evidenced by a number of serious gaffes recently caused by lack of time on the ball. At least O’Dea looked good in his first start, and Hassli will help a little (although he’s a good player, not a world-class player, which Danny K most assuredly was).

But ultimately, there’s nothing to suggest Mariner has either a competent hold on the requisite skill levels in the modern MLS game, or on how to adjust tactically to a good team with the prior week’s preparation, often on short notice.

It’s the same old story.

O’Dea was a major pickup, and he might even be the line leader we’ve always needed. He surely looked it against KC. But TFC still lost, because it created nothing against a better team. If the only value to a line-leading centre half are the odd points we pick up against other league bottom feeders, TFC has, once again, no playoff prospects.

Of course, new owners can fix this. Start with a total front office purge: get rid anyone with any decision-making power from the last six years and start over. Seriously. You keep one and it turns out to be a bad apple, you have to start all over again.

Replace the club’s president with a veteran football man, and let him hire the people under him.

Then hire a veteran MLS coach with a winning tradition.

Does any of this seem that complicated? Does MLSE’s complete inability to pull it off make any other fans out there feel like Mugatu in Zoolander, screaming in vain that “I feel like I’m taking crazy pills”?!?


A Complete culling of upper management please.

[nonc]

someone should print those worst coach vote results expertly large and just hold it there during the next public meeting.

[Alonso]

Jeez so many things wrong here. Why wouldn't he be brought in as an interim head coach? At least he's on trial and has to prove himself with results first before this BS of getting a chance to build his own team (jeez Di Matteo had to win the friggin Champions League to get his shot). So many things are sketchy here big time - how can you name your head coach and 'director of soccer' without looking at ANYONE else!? I can't wait to hear how they are going to spin this team in the offseason like it's actually heading in a direction.


It just reeks of total stupidity.

Why would TFC management back itself into a corner like that with an unproven coach?

[nonc]

Mariner was only given 2/3 of a season with Plymouth because he sucked, point blank. I doubt anyone in TFC or media even know the simple fact that his brief Head Coach experience resulted in 7W, 5D, 15L. On top of that, his consultation work regarding players and trades for TFC before being promoted was rather suspect.

THREE YEAR EXTENSION. DIRECTOR OF EVERYTHING!

[Canary10]

Mariner was only given 2/3 of a season with Plymouth because he sucked, point blank. I doubt anyone in TFC or media even know the simple fact that his brief Head Coach experience resulted in 7W, 5D, 15L. On top of that, his consultation work regarding players and trades for TFC before being promoted was rather suspect.

THREE YEAR EXTENSION. DIRECTOR OF EVERYTHING!

I did a bit of research into his time at Plymouth and wrote about it at Typical TFC. He actually had 6 draws. :) But yeah, he was essentially fired at the end of the season, or at least demoted, so clearly the team's management didn't have faith in him. He also said in interviews that the original plan was that he would learn to be a first team manager from Plymouth's manager Paul Sturrock. When the results went south quickly, he got thrown in. So he never did get the learning experience they wanted for him.

By the way, Plymouth fans complained about his player selection, playing people out of position, overall negative tactics, and that he didn't know how to run a practice. Any of this sound familiar?

[mdc 77]

...fans complained about his player selection, playing people out of position, overall negative tactics, and that he didn't know how to run a practice. Any of this sound familiar?

LOL YES. sounds like every TFC manager we have ever had.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

I'm not saying that Mariner IS an alcoholic, because I don't know the man. BUT, having known many alcoholics in my lifetime, based on my (admittedly superficial) observations of Mariner he appears to be an alcoholic who, due to a recent change in circumstances, is rapidly losing control of his life. His behaviour, appearance and decisions are even less coherent than they were at the start of his tenure. If he were a person about whom I cared personally, I would be very worried for his health. Fortunately he is not, so I only have to feel bad for his family.

[Oldtimer]

^This kind of baseless speculating is how rumours get started that often destroy careers and lives. Given that you have never met the man, stuff like this shouldn't even be said (you can think "hmmm, I wonder if he is an alcoholic?" ... please just don't say it).

Now if you knew a co-worker of his who told you he saw him downing 10 scotches every morning, then you could come to some conclusions. But basing something like this on his behaviour and general disorganization is over the top.

I've knew someone years ago who was just as incoherent and disorganized, and terribly frustrating to even talk to... the guy was a teetotaler and never touched a drop. It was 100% his personality.


This is not to defend Paul Mariner, I think he is a terrible coach. But I'll judge him based on what I can see on the pitch (him yelling, players ignoring him, appalling tactics, playing players out of position, ugly football, and of course losing). No need to start speculating about possible personal issues, which should be left out of the discussion IMO.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

^Not really baseless, and carefully couched in terms that indicate speculation and uncertainty. Your example of the incoherent and disorganized teetotaler is factually unrelated to Mariner.

[ArmenJBX]

jloome, that was a very well written and cohesive piece. Comparing then and now is actually alarming, seeing as we're experiencing the exact same trend as we once did. Keep it up.

[Super]

^Not really baseless, and carefully couched in terms that indicate speculation and uncertainty. Your example of the incoherent and disorganized teetotaler is factually unrelated to Mariner.

Friend of mine saw Mariner at a Finn McCool's the night before the Portland game where we were missing a bunch of players. Mariner was there drinking with a few others, and he said to my friend: "We're screwed for tomorrow". Not saying the guy is an alcoholic, but to walk around telling strangers that we're "screwed" the night before a big game is not very professional in my personal opinion. My buddy, by the way, is a huge football fan, but never gave TFC a chance due to the low quality of play and our poor stadium. He knows I'm a fan, so that's why he approached Mariner, and then txted me about it.

[Strans]

Friend of mine saw Mariner at a Finn McCool's the night before the Portland game where we were missing a bunch of players. Mariner was there drinking with a few others, and he said to my friend: "We're screwed for tomorrow". Not saying the guy is an alcoholic, but to walk around telling strangers that we're "screwed" the night before a big game is not very professional in my personal opinion. My buddy, by the way, is a huge football fan, but never gave TFC a chance due to the low quality of play and our poor stadium. He knows I'm a fan, so that's why he approached Mariner, and then txted me about it.

This is terrifying because it's a stupid thing for Mariner to say, not because he's an alcoholic. I'm with Oldtimer on this. Judge the man for his tactics (or lack thereof), his winning (or lack thereof) or his motivational skills (or lack thereof), but leave his personal life out of it. If it comes out later that he's an alcoholic, deal with it then. Hell, I'm just glad that I'm not being judged on half things I say in the pub. :drinking:

[Cashcleaner]

I'm not saying that Mariner IS an alcoholic, because I don't know the man. BUT, having known many alcoholics in my lifetime, based on my (admittedly superficial) observations of Mariner he appears to be an alcoholic who, due to a recent change in circumstances, is rapidly losing control of his life. His behaviour, appearance and decisions are even less coherent than they were at the start of his tenure. If he were a person about whom I cared personally, I would be very worried for his health. Fortunately he is not, so I only have to feel bad for his family.

Just wanted to say thanks in advance for the impending shitstorm this post will undoubtedly generate, Vox. :thumbsup:

I know the real problem is with people who would take your own words as some sort of official position by this group (and that's bad on their part), but the really is something you should have kept to yourself.

[bgnewf]

Posted this over on U Sector too and I thought it appropriate to share here as well:

I have been checking in on this thread an on this argument for a few days now and I have to confess I just don't get this slavish talk about "philosophy" with so many more pressing issues to deal with for TFC.

You see we all choose to support a team that has sucked the hind fucking tit playing in a league that you can get pretty competitive in relatively quickly now for six fucking seasons. Style of play is one of our least important issues RIGHT NOW.

And next season is probably going to be a tough slog as well folks. Lets not delude ourselves. There are still ungodly contracts on this team that have to either be shed or left to run their course, our DP's are getting older, our best striker ever could never suit up for us again (get well soon Danny K), a lot of deadwood has to be cleared out of the dressing room and there is still no clear (for me at least) delineation as to what everybody in our front office actually fucking does. We have the makings of an outright revolt from supporters if the team does not get 2013 pricing right and the very real possibility of what might be a real collapse of fan interest in this team going into season seven can't be ruled out as a possibility.

And with all these HUGE MASSIVE problems/challenges to deal with it just blows me away that so many of us are willing to throw Mariner so soon off the deep end while stating that Winter was never given a real chance to succeed.

Losing pretty and losing ugly is exactly the same fucking thing... LOSING

This is a salary cap league with a surprisingly complex structure that a club must learn to use to its advantage in order to succeed. And without a doubt this team has not learned how to do this yet in any consistent way. Paul Mariner, say what you will about the results over the past few games, undoubtedly knows how to do business in MLS. Only time will tell if he can straighten out this ungodly mess he inherited. But no one could straighten it out in three months!

But to me slavishly focusing on some ideal like the "Dutch way" as the path to get this team turned around in this league such as it is to me seems niave. NCAA kids are not coming from the Ajax Acedemy. Most of the TFC Academy prospects obviously did not start their football education with TFC. And expecting a MLS journeyman on 50 grand a YEAR not 50 grand a WEEK to play like Iniesta and Xavi is delusional.


Toronto FC needs to try something that they have not tried before. They need to let a very experienced MLS man that had had success (And hopefully Mariner is THAT guy) to take the helm and try and build a respectable team. Everything else (Mo, Klinsmann, trade trade trade, DP after DP, revolving door on dressing room, coach after coach after coach) has not worked. Why the fuck would we try any of those again when they have not worked before?

Focusing on style of play at this point strikes me as a Doctor fussing over a patient's hangnail when the patient also has a sucking chest wound. You deal with the sucking chest wound first because if you don't the patient dies.



__________________________________-

And to those rumourmongering about the man's personal life you should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Cashcleaner]

^ I can honestly say I pretty much agree with every fucking word you've wrote up there.


I have been checking in on this thread an on this argument for a few days now and I have to confess I just don't get this slavish talk about "philosophy" with so many more pressing issues to deal with for TFC.

You see we all choose to support a team that has sucked the hind fucking tit playing in a league that you can get pretty competitive in relatively quickly now for six fucking seasons. Style of play is one of our least important issues RIGHT NOW.

It's been my experience that often one or two vague concept are mentioned and immediately seized upon and parroted by a vocal minority. Not just here mind you, but on other forums and discussion venues. And like you said, "Style of Play" seems to be the current buzzword that really doesn't need the all attention it seems to be getting at the moment from the fans and supporters.


And next season is probably going to be a tough slog as well folks. Lets not delude ourselves. There are still ungodly contracts on this team that have to either be shed or left to run their course, our DP's are getting older, our best striker ever could never suit up for us again (get well soon Danny K), a lot of deadwood has to be cleared out of the dressing room and there is still no clear (for me at least) delineation as to what everybody in our front office actually fucking does. We have the makings of an outright revolt from supporters if the team does not get 2013 pricing right and the very real possibility of what might be a real collapse of fan interest in this team going into season seven can't be ruled out as a possibility.

And with all these HUGE MASSIVE problems/challenges to deal with it just blows me away that so many of us are willing to throw Mariner so soon off the deep end while stating that Winter was never given a real chance to succeed.

Losing pretty and losing ugly is exactly the same fucking thing... LOSING

To me this is probably the most worrying issue. We are a club in dire need of certain roster changes but have locked up quite a few under-performing individuals, contract-wise. And I really had to highlight the second point because the double standard is obvious. I will readily admit that Mariner is not turning out to be as good as I was hoping for, but I'm still gonna give him a fair shake at turning things around. Winter was given ample time to prove his worth. Mariner needs an offseason to sign what he can and then we shall see how it all comes together.



Toronto FC needs to try something that they have not tried before. They need to let a very experienced MLS man that had had success (And hopefully Mariner is THAT guy) to take the helm and try and build a respectable team. Everything else (Mo, Klinsmann, trade trade trade, DP after DP, revolving door on dressing room, coach after coach after coach) has not worked. Why the fuck would we try any of those again when they have not worked before?

Focusing on style of play at this point strikes me as a Doctor fussing over a patient's hangnail when the patient also has a sucking chest wound. You deal with the sucking chest wound first because if you don't the patient dies.

I can deal with rebuilding (again) and taking the time to gather the right people, but again I have to stress that MLS is not a league where a club needs to take two years off to get their shit in order. Other clubs with far less financial backing then ours have been able to go from bottowm-dwellers to playoff contenders over the course of a single season. There's no good reason why Toronto can't do the same.

[jabbronies]

@bgNewf The purpose of having a playing style (philosophy) is so that when a player/manager gets replaced, he isn't tearing down the whole club and starting from scratch. Which is what TFC has been doing for 6 years now. The "Dutch" style was just a base for the team to build on. It was never meant to be "THE" way to go. It was a style that the club was suppose to work with and mature into their own. Something that could work in MLS.

Like the club, a lot of people seem to be too caught up in the glamor of calling it the "dutch style" and focusing on the problems/upside to that particular style. Instead of developing it, people were too quick to dismiss it as a failed selling point for the club. Instead of what it should've been - a playing style.

As I've said before, we have abandoned that route and are now rebuilding yet again with yet another manager who will bring in his own players and change the style across the whole club. Exactly what this team has done for 6 years. exactly the opposite of what you were saying they should do - trying something new. "Sticking with a plan" IS trying something new for TFC. Which they have yet to do.

TFC had the possession style that the Ajax system was suppose to bring to the team. We saw it work wonders against the Latin American teams. But against MLS teams it failed. It failed largely due to a lack of the two things MLS has going for it - physicality and drive..that was what they needed to adjust in order to make the "Ajax system" into the "TFC system". A possession based game with physical players. Instead of working towards that, they abandoned the possession and went purely physical. There is a large lack of skill on this team and the direction of the players they are touting as leaders are not the ones who can bring to life that "TFC system" I spoke of above.

To come on here and basically say people shouldn't talk about the style because that is not the problem is insane to me. To only focus on the FO/Lack of management is short sighted, just as focusing on a single system was. This whole club needs to give it's head a shake. From suites to boots, none of it is working - including Mariner.

It shouldn't matter who the manager is, who the players are, who the owners are, who the friggen supporters are - a team should have a playing style that transcends everything. So you know what you are getting into when you come to this club. Again - Im not talking about a single formation - I'm talking about a system. without that, we will forever be in overhauling mode.

[ArmenJBX]

I'm talking about a system. without that, we will forever be in overhauling mode.

Bingo.

[Wull]

I can almost name an entire team with subs that are Mariner players on this team right now. Aron was given just over a season, this guy has had that time plus half a season. Most of these players are his or. We are seeing Plymouth part 2 except everyone at that club saw through him quite quickly. Is there something wrong with wanting a Swansea-type setup where there's continuity and a long term plan being executed regardless of any changes that occur in player or coaching personnel?

[jloome]

jloome, that was a very well written and cohesive piece. Comparing then and now is actually alarming, seeing as we're experiencing the exact same trend as we once did. Keep it up.

Cheers, Armen. It's a shame I never get a chance to write about them doing the right thing. And his motivational skills are so solid I had high hopes for Mariner. But it's plain to see now why he was a field coach at New England and not in charge of tactics, and why he didn't work at Plymouth.

You see this trend quite often among footballers who were particularly high-performing. People forget that, like Mo, Mariner was a superstar in England in his day, a national team striker. And stars are used to being the guy who makes the call that wins the game (and when athletes are performing, it IS about their intelligence and forethought more than their technique.)

But that rarely works in coaching. An exception would be Jason Kreis, who could easily have banged 10 a year in if he'd played in Europe but who has typical U.S. tenacity and preparedness.

And that's key: if you look at guys who get it done regardless of their coaching experience in MLS, they're always guys who were, as players above all, doggedly determined AND prepared. Kreis, Jessie Marsch, Pete Vermes... these guys were like Carl Robinson or Sam Cronin in their approach to game day: meticulous about doing their homework adn respecting their opposition.

Mo, Mariner, Maradona, Gretzky in the NHL -- these are guys who, when on the field, were a step ahead of their competition at all times. But being good at somethign doesn't always make you good at teaching something, and in fact the better you are the more frustrated you may tend to be -- or disconnected -- from average players, and how to get them to perform at THEIR best.

These types of coaches also clearly choose players due to personality and character traits over their ability or football brain. I have no doubt if not for the Texas incident and the notion that he's a free-thinking European, Nick Soolsma would still be with the club, and he was one SEVERELY underrated player. The fact that Paul Mariner thought we were better off without him, when it comes down to it, says all we need to know about our current manager. PERIOD. Soolsma could play both sides, in the hole, as a striker; he even defended well, for fuck's sake. He should've been on the field all the time.

Who knows? Maybe Soolsma knows that too, and expressions of ego keep biting him in the ass with teams. But great coaches learn to manage egos, headcases, oddballs. They don't cast them off in favor of pure mediocrity, pros who weren't much better in high school than the better guys on your high school team.

What more needs to be said? People may think I criticize Terry Dunfield too much, but it's to make a point: in every respect -- statistically, technically, mentally -- he is not good enough to be a starter. But compared to some of our starters, he looks good to people by comparison.

Right now, I doubt we could win the USL title.

[v00d00daddy]

Posted this over on U Sector too and I thought it appropriate to share here as well:

I have been checking in on this thread an on this argument for a few days now and I have to confess I just don't get this slavish talk about "philosophy" with so many more pressing issues to deal with for TFC.

You see we all choose to support a team that has sucked the hind fucking tit playing in a league that you can get pretty competitive in relatively quickly now for six fucking seasons. Style of play is one of our least important issues RIGHT NOW.

And next season is probably going to be a tough slog as well folks. Lets not delude ourselves. There are still ungodly contracts on this team that have to either be shed or left to run their course, our DP's are getting older, our best striker ever could never suit up for us again (get well soon Danny K), a lot of deadwood has to be cleared out of the dressing room and there is still no clear (for me at least) delineation as to what everybody in our front office actually fucking does. We have the makings of an outright revolt from supporters if the team does not get 2013 pricing right and the very real possibility of what might be a real collapse of fan interest in this team going into season seven can't be ruled out as a possibility.

And with all these HUGE MASSIVE problems/challenges to deal with it just blows me away that so many of us are willing to throw Mariner so soon off the deep end while stating that Winter was never given a real chance to succeed.

Losing pretty and losing ugly is exactly the same fucking thing... LOSING

This is a salary cap league with a surprisingly complex structure that a club must learn to use to its advantage in order to succeed. And without a doubt this team has not learned how to do this yet in any consistent way. Paul Mariner, say what you will about the results over the past few games, undoubtedly knows how to do business in MLS. Only time will tell if he can straighten out this ungodly mess he inherited. But no one could straighten it out in three months!

But to me slavishly focusing on some ideal like the "Dutch way" as the path to get this team turned around in this league such as it is to me seems niave. NCAA kids are not coming from the Ajax Acedemy. Most of the TFC Academy prospects obviously did not start their football education with TFC. And expecting a MLS journeyman on 50 grand a YEAR not 50 grand a WEEK to play like Iniesta and Xavi is delusional.


Toronto FC needs to try something that they have not tried before. They need to let a very experienced MLS man that had had success (And hopefully Mariner is THAT guy) to take the helm and try and build a respectable team. Everything else (Mo, Klinsmann, trade trade trade, DP after DP, revolving door on dressing room, coach after coach after coach) has not worked. Why the fuck would we try any of those again when they have not worked before?

Focusing on style of play at this point strikes me as a Doctor fussing over a patient's hangnail when the patient also has a sucking chest wound. You deal with the sucking chest wound first because if you don't the patient dies.



__________________________________-

And to those rumourmongering about the man's personal life you should be ashamed of yourselves.

I'm sorry but you're saying that there are bigger problems than style of play and then expecting me to support Mariner because of those reasons? Really?

Ungodly mess he inherited? What?

He is part of the team that created this mess!

3 months to turn it around? What?

Last I checked he was hired 2 years ago. He's been on the payroll...expected to change things for the better for a hell of a lot longer than 3 months.

Mariner is a perfect example of the ineptitude of this club.

He is a product of a process where nobody knows who does what. In fact, I think he has a job because of it. Nobody knew what Mariner actually did when he was hired and was "working with" Winter.

If he was in charge of player acquisition he was shit at it and his MLS expertise amounted to very little.

Next, he has shown that he's got very little in terms of coaching. His tactics, results and overall sideline behaviour leave a lot to be desired.

So tell me again why I should get behind him?

Is it cause of hassli and O'Dea?

Sorry...not nearly enough.

On top of it all I think he is a snake with the way he "helped" Winter and again, that falls right in line with the cock up that is the TFC FO.

He's just another pea in the pod of all that is, and has always been wrong with TFC.

So, for me, style of play is very important but it's not just style of play that has turned me off of this guy and TFC right now.

PS...our best striker was brought in by those wacky Dutch guys and my bet is that even healthy, he'll leave too if this shit continues.

[jloome]

Posted this over on U Sector too and I thought it appropriate to share here as well:

I have been checking in on this thread an on this argument for a few days now and I have to confess I just don't get this slavish talk about "philosophy" with so many more pressing issues to deal with for TFC.

You see we all choose to support a team that has sucked the hind fucking tit playing in a league that you can get pretty competitive in relatively quickly now for six fucking seasons. Style of play is one of our least important issues RIGHT NOW.

And next season is probably going to be a tough slog as well folks. Lets not delude ourselves. There are still ungodly contracts on this team that have to either be shed or left to run their course, our DP's are getting older, our best striker ever could never suit up for us again (get well soon Danny K), a lot of deadwood has to be cleared out of the dressing room and there is still no clear (for me at least) delineation as to what everybody in our front office actually fucking does. We have the makings of an outright revolt from supporters if the team does not get 2013 pricing right and the very real possibility of what might be a real collapse of fan interest in this team going into season seven can't be ruled out as a possibility.

And with all these HUGE MASSIVE problems/challenges to deal with it just blows me away that so many of us are willing to throw Mariner so soon off the deep end while stating that Winter was never given a real chance to succeed.

Losing pretty and losing ugly is exactly the same fucking thing... LOSING

This is a salary cap league with a surprisingly complex structure that a club must learn to use to its advantage in order to succeed. And without a doubt this team has not learned how to do this yet in any consistent way. Paul Mariner, say what you will about the results over the past few games, undoubtedly knows how to do business in MLS. Only time will tell if he can straighten out this ungodly mess he inherited. But no one could straighten it out in three months!

But to me slavishly focusing on some ideal like the "Dutch way" as the path to get this team turned around in this league such as it is to me seems niave. NCAA kids are not coming from the Ajax Acedemy. Most of the TFC Academy prospects obviously did not start their football education with TFC. And expecting a MLS journeyman on 50 grand a YEAR not 50 grand a WEEK to play like Iniesta and Xavi is delusional.


Toronto FC needs to try something that they have not tried before. They need to let a very experienced MLS man that had had success (And hopefully Mariner is THAT guy) to take the helm and try and build a respectable team. Everything else (Mo, Klinsmann, trade trade trade, DP after DP, revolving door on dressing room, coach after coach after coach) has not worked. Why the fuck would we try any of those again when they have not worked before?

Focusing on style of play at this point strikes me as a Doctor fussing over a patient's hangnail when the patient also has a sucking chest wound. You deal with the sucking chest wound first because if you don't the patient dies.



__________________________________-

And to those rumourmongering about the man's personal life you should be ashamed of yourselves.

I'd agree with this but for one thing: I don't think MOST of the people criticizing him are doing so for reason of wanting Dutch tactics. They're criticizing him for HIS choice of tactics (or lack thereof) for HIS signings, for HIS inability to put together a winner when he was a chief architect of it LONG BEFORE that three months. It's disingenuous to say the director of player personnel, who was also an on field coach, had no role in the problems prior to his taking over full reins, and that this argument is about one issue. It's not.

[Greatest Ripoff]

This is a salary cap league with a surprisingly complex structure that a club must learn to use to its advantage in order to succeed. And without a doubt this team has not learned how to do this yet in any consistent way. Paul Mariner, say what you will about the results over the past few games, undoubtedly knows how to do business in MLS.


If this is true, then why after two years in charge of player acquisitions does TFC have the third highest payroll MLS wile being in last place and spends $390,000 on a RB to play at CB?

[Richard]

"Knows how to do business in MLS."

*Cough* Andy Iro *Cough*

Anyways as said earlier he is part of the problem and displays no tactical acumen.

[starter]

Posted this over on U Sector too and I thought it appropriate to share here as well:

I have been checking in on this thread an on this argument for a few days now and I have to confess I just don't get this slavish talk about "philosophy" with so many more pressing issues to deal with for TFC.
...

The only reason to stick with Mariner would be to provide some stability for the club. However there are too many reasons why he should NOT be that man, pretty well articulated by previous posters.
He really has not done anything at TFC for the last 2 years to show HE IS the man who can make this team play attractive football and be competitive in the league. He can not even spell what his vision is, which you would expect from a man in his position.
Mariner is an Anselmi man, and a blind monkey throwing darts at the candidates list would be more successful than Tom at picking talent.
Tom better to be calling Klinsmann again, to give him a list of candidates for a club president position ASAP.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Also, coaches change all the time. Some get fired, some move on to other jobs and some just retire. What doesn't (in successful clubs) and should change is the team philosophy and long term vision. The problem I have, is I don't see Mariner having a long term vision or philosophy.

Everything thing I've heard him say has been BS or he has lied about. His tactics are baffling at times. He constantly plays people out of position and as a result, is getting less out of them. He would rather have empty seats on the bench then give a young academy graduate a spot. It seems like he is mortgaging the future to gets wins in a season that is already lost. I would have a lot more time for him if didn't seem so concerned about padding his stats and was more concerned with developing the young talent on this team and building for the future. It's not the wins or loses but the direction he seems to be moving.

Do you think that players like Jeremy Hall, Quincy Amirakwa, Andrew Wiedeman and Logan Emory are players that this team can be built around or have a long term future with Toronto? Is Doneil Henry a going to have a long term future as a RB? Is Eric Hassli a target man forward? Is Aaron Maund a central midfielder? Does Joao Plata have a future with TFC? Does Milos Kocic have a future with this team?

What has Mariner done for this team in the past two years that makes you think he would be successful in the future? If O'dea isn't overpaid and can adapt well to MLS that could be a huge plus for Mariner but I struggle to find any other positive things he has done.

[narduch]

The reason why I don't buy the 'Mariner should get the off-season for the sake of stability' argument is that Mariner was put in charge for results now. That should be plain for everyone to see based on the moves he has made. My guess is this was Anselmi's last stab at trying to save season ticket renewals. Hope for better results and try to sell it to the fan base.

Trading a 1st rounder for Hassli isn't a move that you make if you are a bad team trying to build for the future. And the way that Academy players on the roster appear to have been marginalized also points to that.

Mariner is coaching like a guy that is desperate to get results now (unfortunately for him the results of late have been bad). He isn't coaching like a guy who looks like he's trying to develop a squad for the future.

[ryan]

If in doubt get it out

It just seems funny to me to hear that at a professional level.

[nonc]

These types of coaches also clearly choose players due to personality and character traits over their ability or football brain. I have no doubt if not for the Texas incident and the notion that he's a free-thinking European, Nick Soolsma would still be with the club, and he was one SEVERELY underrated player. The fact that Paul Mariner thought we were better off without him, when it comes down to it, says all we need to know about our current manager. PERIOD. Soolsma could play both sides, in the hole, as a striker; he even defended well, for fuck's sake. He should've been on the field all the time.

Soolsma was our best runner off the ball, it's not surprising Mariner not only wouldn't use him, but released him.

[iy12l]

So when are you guys beginning to boycott the remaining home games this season?

[ag futbol]

The reason why I don't buy the 'Mariner should get the off-season for the sake of stability' argument is that Mariner was put in charge for results now. That should be plain for everyone to see based on the moves he has made. My guess is this was Anselmi's last stab at trying to save season ticket renewals. Hope for better results and try to sell it to the fan base.

Trading a 1st rounder for Hassli isn't a move that you make if you are a bad team trying to build for the future. And the way that Academy players on the roster appear to have been marginalized also points to that.

Mariner is coaching like a guy that is desperate to get results now (unfortunately for him the results of late have been bad). He isn't coaching like a guy who looks like he's trying to develop a squad for the future.
+1 on all of that.

The transfer window was my main thing and I be frank it was a disappointment. I know someone is going to say "but we got x,y, and z... Plus we can do more later". Sounds like a re-run of every transfer window ever for TFC.

The sad fact is we needed the type of transfer impact that other teams had but we didn't. The league isn't static, everything moves.. Except us, always last out of the gate.. Always "going to do it later". Tell me teams like Columbus or seattle didn't improve their squads more than we improved ours .... And they aren't starting from as far back as we are.

[Shakes McQueen]

Yeah, I also don't buy that Mariner should stay solely for the sake of stability. He's an interim replacement to the actual, original manager. He was put in charge to simplify things and try to salvage some results this season, after the team hit historic lows - both on the ledger, and emotionally with the players.

If that panicky decision worked, then so be it - give him a chance. And for a little while, the team seemed to be somewhat responding to the change. However, that appears to have been short-lived - people adjusted to our route one tactics, Mariner continues to make mind-boggling decisions, and we are right back in the shit.

If Mariner was appointed as the result of careful thought and search, and I was under the impression some greater plan was being put in place on his watch, I'd be inclined to give him time - as I did Winter, last season. But again, that isn't the case here. Mariner was given the job after the heat on Winter became too much for Anselmi and Co., with the implicit goal of making wine out of garbage for the rest of the year. His erratic tactical decisions don't imply any sort of system whatsoever. We are furiously treading water right now - not learning to swim. And we are doing it poorly, to boot.

That's not a future. Change needs to start right at the top of TFC's hierarchy, and then filter down to the manager. Replace Anselmi with a soccer mind ("consult" on this question if you must), let that person decide on a new manager, and let that new manager bring in ALL of his own subordinates as he sees fit. On the business side, it's time to sincerely discuss ticket and concession prices.

The only, ONLY things this club has ever done unequivocally right, are exchange the fieldturf for natural grass, and loudly defend the stadium from potential CFL incursion. Everything else has been failure after failure. Alienating and abusing the enthusiastic fanbase. Ruining relationships with their own players and coaches through embarrassing professional malpractice. Burning through more players and managers than any other football team I've seen in the history of the world.

They took a franchise that started off with everything going for it - a decent, well-situated stadium and an overflowing fanbase - and managed to turn it into the most toxic sports experience I've ever been a part of.

- Scott

[jloome]

Yeah, I also don't buy that Mariner should stay solely for the sake of stability. He's an interim replacement to the actual, original manager. He was put in charge to simplify things and try to salvage some results this season, after the team hit historic lows - both on the ledger, and emotionally with the players.

If that panicky decision worked, then so be it - give him a chance. And for a little while, the team seemed to be somewhat responding to the change. However, that appears to have been short-lived - people adjusted to our route one tactics, Mariner continues to make mind-boggling decisions, and we are right back in the shit.

If Mariner was appointed as the result of careful thought and search, and I was under the impression some greater plan was being put in place on his watch, I'd be inclined to give him time - as I did Winter, last season. But again, that isn't the case here. Mariner was given the job after the heat on Winter became too much for Anselmi and Co., with the implicit goal of making wine out of garbage for the rest of the year. His erratic tactical decisions don't imply any sort of system whatsoever. We are furiously treading water right now - not learning to swim. And we are doing it poorly, to boot.

That's not a future. Change needs to start right at the top of TFC's hierarchy, and then filter down to the manager. Replace Anselmi with a soccer mind ("consult" on this question if you must), let that person decide on a new manager, and let that new manager bring in ALL of his own subordinates as he sees fit. On the business side, it's time to sincerely discuss ticket and concession prices.

The only, ONLY things this club has ever done unequivocally right, are exchange the fieldturf for natural grass, and loudly defend the stadium from potential CFL incursion. Everything else has been failure after failure. Alienating and abusing the enthusiastic fanbase. Ruining relationships with their own players and coaches through embarrassing professional malpractice. Burning through more players and managers than any other football team I've seen in the history of the world.

They took a franchise that started off with everything going for it - a decent, well-situated stadium and an overflowing fanbase - and managed to turn it into the most toxic sports experience I've ever been a part of.

- Scott

Again, it seems like every post or reply I make these days is about neurology and how humans are largely subconscious pack animals, but that's because it's always relevant and rarely considered. It's against human nature to consider what other people might do without even thinking about it, or to remove "blame" from bad decision making as a consquence.

But it's also why Tom Anselmi may well not be fired. To a business hierarchy, he's a top dog, with profits out the wazoo. The fact that the product has now fallen apart, to his cronies, just means they need a new product. It doesn't diminish him in their eyes because of the profit that preceded it. Until they get clear indications that profit is gone (and we're not far off) he's not in trouble. They may well try to repair the team, but they'll do it the same way, AGAIN, that they've done up until now, which is leave Anselmi in charge, then put a "Manager" below him who isn't a field boss, like Winter, who they can blame when things go wrong.

They seem THEMSELVES as the golden goose, not the team. It's totally delusional, since Toronto's success was just the result of a long-fomenting passion for football in Canada that, influenced by the top level of the game, wouldn't settle for anything less than the best level we could get here. That's it. That's all. That's everything.

[ag futbol]

Some great points on here. I'd quote directly but punching away on my iPhone.

The comments about vision IMO are bang-on. If we had more of a consistent philosophy across the staff mariner coming in would be a true tweak. A different spin but in the same direction could be exactly what we need.

Unfortunately it appears winter and mariner are polar opposites, which has to bring up the question: why were they selected to work together in the first place?

This guy is now making major overhauls to he existing team.. Not conducive to the club or the short term results some want to see. It's just nutty how things are being handled

[azorean19]

+1 on all of that.

The transfer window was my main thing and I be frank it was a disappointment. I know someone is going to say "but we got x,y, and z... Plus we can do more later". Sounds like a re-run of every transfer window ever for TFC.

The sad fact is we needed the type of transfer impact that other teams had but we didn't. The league isn't static, everything moves.. Except us, always last out of the gate.. Always "going to do it later". Tell me teams like Columbus or seattle didn't improve their squads more than we improved ours .... And they aren't starting from as far back as we are.

careful !! referring to other teams and the PROGRESS they are making will brand you as anti TFC with some here. Mind you, What Columbus has done has been impressive, those two guys up top ( Arrieta & Higuain) have been terrific...It is not only what they have produced thus far , BUT how they make all around them better ! ( Gaven)

[Suds]

Columbus (predict tie)
Houston (loss)
Santos Laguna (loss)
Sporting KC (loss)
Chicago (loss)
Philadelphia (win)
LA (loss)



Other than flipping the Houston and Columbus results you've been bang on so far.

[JuliquE]

Winter came in and was forced to follow a set out plan for his first pre-season, seeing the club travel across the Atlantic. Much like Barca staying in Europe, this year, and the benefit it has had on their improved sharpness, he would likely have preferred to go to a warmer climate in the States, somewhere. First half of the season, we managed a few results.. but, it was mostly an assessment of the players we had. Worth noting that the mantra from him was about how important JDG and especially DeRo would be, however, he never stood a chance at securing the latter.

After the massive changes to the roster, in a year we were rebuilding, we went on to some moderate success in the league and great success in the CCL. As a result, we had, without question, the most difficult scheduling to start this season -- going from zero (off-season) to 100. This, I feel, particularly affected our older guys -- even JDG; always important for older players to work harder than most, during the off-season, a la DeRo. I think there's more than a correlation, there, with our 0-9 start; travelling and mentally getting up for such huge games meant that it was always going to spread us thin, in league play and especially in the early goings. To be fair, we were insanely unlucky, during that horrid streak and could have taken, at least, four or five wins/ties; much like when I watch Barca, if to a lesser degree, I felt like we always looked like scoring and never panicked if we went down early -- more tense, for sure.. but, never feeling hopeless.

Some have said that Mariner enjoyed the usual new coach bump in results, but I think even THAT'S giving him too much credit; many were puzzled at the timing of things, when Winter was removed, as we were enjoying a great stretch of results and I feel like that only continued, once Mariner took the helm. *shudders* Even at our worst, in the league, with Winter, we were still making waves in our CCL play and raising the bar, as far as Canadian teams were concerned.

There's a legitimate gripe with Mariner for his player selection and shortened benches. I can imagine that, not only our academy grads., but some of our fringe players, as well, are probably putting their heads down, each week and working hard.. only to see, in the end, Mariner would rather have an undersized squad, than to involve any of them; that's got to be taking it's toll on the psychology of the lads. His exclusion of Avila and Kocic is just disgusting -- the list goes on. Some feel he's a good motivator -- I don't see it, really. He doesn't seem to have anything going for him. Why is this happening to us?!

.. see what I did, there? Started to panic, towards the end.

[Wingback6]

Mariner is a con man, he'll sell you shit and call it ice-cream smiling the whole time.

[PAOK17]

I am not saying Winter shouldn't have been let go but looking back at our team at the start of the season and we weren't an 0-9 team on paper. When you look back at those losses there were a lot of games lost on silly individual mistakes at the back. I felt like we would be playing well but just have random brain farts that would gift the other team 1-2 goals per game. I think that is what frustrated me the most. I mean had Mariner done his job and actually gotten us the right centre backs in the off-season that we desperately needed we probably would have had a better start. Instead we had to play guys like Harden because Winter honestly had no one else!

Then we ended up winning against Philadelphia, followed by getting the Amyway and that was the time to make the coaching change? Again, make the change but at least put in a guy to continue the trend of the team. The timing of Winter's firing was way off. And then the guy that comes in basically blows up the team. Has there ever been more changes made to a roster midseason?

Look at the roster we had in LA for the return leg (I'm not using the home leg as I think JDG and Soolsma were suspended?):

Kocic, Eckersley, Harden, Frings, Aceval, Morgan, Soolsma, de Guzman, Johnson, Koevermans, Plata

Yesterday we had (ok we do have some injuries?):

F. Hall, Maund, Eckersley, J. Hall, Emory, Odea, Silva, Dunfield, Amarikwa, Johnson, Wiedeman

Let's not forget Eckersley is out of position.

But seriously, which of these two teams would you have more faith in?

We should have stuck it out for the season and replaced Winter with someone who would continue the team's direction. By bringing in Mariner, not only did we blow up the team again but have only solidified our team's reputation of being horrible with the treatment of it's own players. Who would want to play for this team? Actually, after seeing how Mariner doesn't even use a full bench it shows that he has no fait in the academy as well. So again, what parent in their right mind would put their kid through this organization?

[Suds]

Other than flipping the Houston and Columbus results you've been bang on so far.


Still pretty much nailed it, Oldtimer.

[leafsman]

Look at the roster we had in LA for the return leg (I'm not using the home leg as I think JDG and Soolsma were suspended?):

Kocic, Eckersley, Harden, Frings, Aceval, Morgan, Soolsma, de Guzman, Johnson, Koevermans, Plata

Yesterday we had (ok we do have some injuries?):

F. Hall, Maund, Eckersley, J. Hall, Emory, Odea, Silva, Dunfield, Amarikwa, Johnson, Wiedeman

Let's not forget Eckersley is out of position.

But seriously, which of these two teams would you have more faith in?

We should have stuck it out for the season and replaced Winter with someone who would continue the team's direction. By bringing in Mariner, not only did we blow up the team again but have only solidified our team's reputation of being horrible with the treatment of it's own players. Who would want to play for this team? Actually, after seeing how Mariner doesn't even use a full bench it shows that he has no fait in the academy as well. So again, what parent in their right mind would put their kid through this organization?

lol larson says this is winters team mariner is using, he should see this post. 1st team is better and not filled with the many waiver wire rejects.

[ryan]

lol larson says this is winters team mariner is using, he should see this post. 1st team is better and not filled with the many waiver wire rejects.

I'm surprised Larson can find time to type while constantly fondling Paul's balls.

[Canary10]

The team was made worse over the transfer window. Who's holding him to account for that? Instead they allow him the excuse that the team is bad.

[ag futbol]

lol larson says this is winters team mariner is using, he should see this post. 1st team is better and not filled with the many waiver wire rejects.
That is such a flimsy argument on Larson's part it's unbelievable.

[tiberius]

So now the time of the great "tweak" is on the down-stretch, and Paul Mariner has some difficult games ahead...

... I believe that we are seeing the last games that Paul Mariner will be in charge of this team. The great question is, when will he be fired (or re-assigned)? Just before season ticket renewals? At the end of the season? Some time in the off-season?

Whatever happens, it is Anselmi's call, so we have to crawl inside his head - ewww... his brain is squirmin' like a toad...:)

Under what circumstances would it benefit Tommy A. to make Grand Marnier walk the plank?

The only scenario that makes any sense to me, would be if Tommy actually lined up a real coach for the team - that doesn't seem likely... although, even a blind squirrel can find nuts, once in a while...

Otherwise, Anselmi will keep him around, along with Beirne + Cochrane, just in case some sacrificial lambs are required at a later date... Perhaps this time around, the coach won't carry the can - perhaps the lack of season ticket sales will be parked at the doorstep of marketing and operations since they don't seem to be very good retaining their customers... How about that Fring's panhandler shtick... or "the worst team in the world video", Socco anyone?

It doesn't really matter if Marnier is fired or not, Season ticket holders won't be fooled either way... ticket renewals won't budge, regardless of the coaching situation. Doubling the beer ration at the town halls will have more effect on season tickets than getting rid of the guy in short pants...

[DoubleUp]

lol larson says this is winters team mariner is using, he should see this post. 1st team is better and not filled with the many waiver wire rejects.
Blaming the guy with the funny accent, way to easy.

Zb3H6MWGCOo

[Auzzy]

So now the time of the great "tweak" is on the down-stretch, and Paul Mariner has some difficult games ahead:

Columbus (predict tie)
Houston (loss)
Santos Laguna (loss)
Sporting KC (loss)
Chicago (loss)
Philadelphia (win)
LA (loss)

I don't think he will pull off a winning record by the end of this string of games. Other teams have seen his tactics, and adjusted their strategies accordingly. I believe that we are seeing the last games that Paul Mariner will be in charge of this team. The great question is, when will he be fired (or re-assigned)? Just before season ticket renewals? At the end of the season? Some time in the off-season?

So just going back to these predictions... OT very close overall, but actually too hopeful for the Philly game. TFC got a tie instead of a win.

Remaining games not much easier:
- Playing away vs. LA
- Playing away vs. CD Aquila
- Playing away vs. New York
- Playing at home vs. DC
- Playing at home vs. Montreal
- Playing away vs. Santos Laguna
- Playing away vs. Columbus

[mowe]

I just wanted to post what JDG said after scoring the game-winner for Dallas:

“I’ll never forget the words of [current TFC manager] Paul Mariner saying that he wants to make sure he’ll send me to a last-place team and let me burn in the heat,” a candid de Guzman said. “It worked out for myself, getting the last laugh, the karma of things. Right now who’s the last place team in the league and who’s battling for the playoffs?”

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/09/16/de-guzman-takes-aim-tfc-mariner-after-winner-vs-caps

Two options: 1) Disgruntled player randomly brings up old team to shove it in their faces one last time
2) Our coach is a prick and a half

[nonc]

De Guzman is usually careful with his words and proud of his Toronto roots, I think it's safe to say this is meant 100% for Paul and not TFC in general.

[Benficachop20]

I just wanted to post what JDG said after scoring the game-winner for Dallas:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/09/16/de-guzman-takes-aim-tfc-mariner-after-winner-vs-caps

Two options: 1) Disgruntled player randomly brings up old team to shove it in their faces one last time
2) Our coach is a prick and a half

wow, unbelievable. Really want this asshole out of the team.

[TFC07]

Fire Mariner and Co.

I hope Toronto media picks up JDG comment.

[DoubleUp]

Fire Mariner and Co.

I hope Toronto media picks up JDG comment.


Yeah right! they'll try to bury it.

[Richard]

So going back to the op's topic do we still think he is going to be fired? I think regadless of any managerial change next year is a write off, too much to fix in one year and next to immposible to get the players we need because of our bad rep.

[Blizzard]

So going back to the op's topic do we still think he is going to be fired? I think regadless of any managerial change next year is a write off, too much to fix in one year and next to immposible to get the players we need because of our bad rep.

He should never have been hired in the first place but now we're stuck with him. I agree. We will have to overpay to get quality players due to our reputation.

[Oldtimer]

Still pretty much nailed it, Oldtimer. I was a bit too optimistic. :) With the Philly tie, the club is actually 2 points worse than I predicted. Otherwise, we are well on track for the worst results ever. We will almost certainly lose the next two games.

Under any intelligent management, PM would be toast. However, Anselmi may very well keep him... at least until season seat sales tank. :D

[Alonso]

I was a bit too optimistic. :) With the Philly tie, the club is actually 2 points worse than I predicted. Otherwise, we are well on track for the worst results ever. We will almost certainly lose the next two games.

Under any intelligent management, PM would be toast. However, Anselmi may very well keep him... at least until season seat sales tank. :D

It's unbelievable that the knuckle head signed Mariner for a 3 year extension before trying it out first!

Now if he fires/moves Mariner ML$E is paying his salary for 3 years. Belogers should be seeing red flags everywhere with all the people/coaches/players we've paid over the years that didn't even work for the club any more.

[Auzzy]

It's unbelievable that the knuckle head signed Mariner for a 3 year extension before trying it out first!

Now if he fires/moves Mariner ML$E is paying his salary for 3 years. Belogers should be seeing red flags everywhere with all the people/coaches/players we've paid over the years that didn't even work for the club any more.

I wonder if Mo & Preki didn't just stop getting paid by TFC Jan. 1st of this year. That seems to be the contract duration that I remembered. Unless they got a big payout earlier.

[Pookie]

Mariner needs a result on Saturday, in LA, to beat the 10 game record that got Winter fired. Mariner's last 9 games: 0-6-3 for 3 of 27 points.

[Oldtimer]

Mariner needs a result on Saturday, in LA, to beat the 10 game record that got Winter fired. Mariner's last 9 games: 0-6-3 for 3 of 27 points.

The players have already tuned him out. There is an almost zero chance of a win. At what point will Anselmi pull the trigger? Probably not until next year, unless season ticket sales tanking possibly force his hand.

[Joe Kool]

The players have already tuned him out. There is an almost zero chance of a win. At what point will Anselmi pull the trigger? Probably not until next year, unless season ticket sales tanking possibly force his hand.

The way I see it is if they get rid of him after this season we get a new coach, hopefully before February, then we have a year of "he hasn't had time to build his team and had to work with what was there from Mariner regime" and if we keep Mariner we get more of the same that we have been getting. Either way it looks like next season will also be screwed and we will be struggling at the bottom of the table (hope I am wrong). I agree with you though....they will keep him unless it becomes the only way to boost ticket sales.

[TOBOR !]

The way I see it is if they get rid of him after this season we get a new coach, hopefully before February, then we have a year of "he hasn't had time to build his team and had to work with what was there from Mariner regime" and if we keep Mariner we get more of the same that we have been getting. Either way it looks like next season will also be screwed and we will be struggling at the bottom of the table (hope I am wrong). I agree with you though....they will keep him unless it becomes the only way to boost ticket sales.

who in their right mind would step into this club knowing that without instant success they'll be back out on the street ?

Someone who knows they'll get a three year deal and get to collect it while sitting on the beach while the circus continues.

[jabbronies]

I can't stand Mariner, however, having yet another manager come in makes me shudder.

How would people feel if Thomas Rongen came in as head coach with BDK as assistant?
It continues with the philosophy we previously had and hopfully stops what is turning out to be yet another all out turn over of our players.

[Oldtimer]

who in their right mind would step into this club knowing that without instant success they'll be back out on the street ?

Someone who knows they'll get a three year deal and get to collect it while sitting on the beach while the circus continues.

... and even more telling, now that Mariner has destroyed the quality of the team (a/k/a "minor tinkering"), gotten rid of important draft picks, alienated our academy kids.... what manager anywhere in the world could turn this team into a winner next year? Even in MLS, it would be close to impossible to do. Without the academy to mine, and with the best draft picks traded away, this team is doomed to for the next couple of years no matter who is in charge. We have one high draft pick next year, but that's not enough to rebuild the team.

The club is actually now in worse shape than when Preki left, leaving the team comprised of mostly Eastern European riff-raff. At least then we had DeRo to carry the team on his back, With Frings probably gone for good, Koevs unlikely to play much next year, and Hassli's contract expiring, we will have no one.

[Oldtimer]

I can't stand Mariner, however, having yet another manager come in makes me shudder.

How would people feel if Thomas Rongen came in as head coach with BDK as assistant?
It continues with the philosophy we previously had and hopfully stops what is turning out to be yet another all out turn over of our players.

I would love to have Rongen step in, even if it was just as interim coach while they found someone else with the same philosophy. He could help start the turnaround.

[narduch]

Just to add to OT's point, does anyone honestly believe that under Mariner + Cochrane we can leap over one of KC, Houston, NYRB, Chicago or DCU next season and grab a playoff spot? Not to mention teams like Montreal or Columbus seem to be heading in the right direction? And what happens if Philly and New England get their shit together?

I know it is still early, but I could see us battling for last place again. The playoffs are still a massive long shot, even with improvement, as I expect the teams above TFC to continue to improve too.

[starter]

I can't stand Mariner, however, having yet another manager come in makes me shudder.

How would people feel if Thomas Rongen came in as head coach with BDK as assistant?
It continues with the philosophy we previously had and hopfully stops what is turning out to be yet another all out turn over of our players.

I would see the combination of Rongen, BDK and possibly Bent as a reasonable solution to this mess, but still would prefer to have a respected president in place first.

[denime]

Just to add to OT's point, does anyone honestly believe that under Mariner + Cochrane we can leap over one of KC, Houston, NYRB, Chicago or DCU next season and grab a playoff spot? Not to mention teams like Montreal or Columbus seem to be heading in the right direction? And what happens if Philly and New England get their shit together?

I know it is still early, but I could see us battling for last place again. The playoffs are still a massive long shot, even with improvement, as I expect the teams above TFC to continue to improve too.

Well,Cohrane said in his last interview that he want TFC see to be top 10 in Conference,being last next year will do exactly where he and FO want us to be,top 10.

[narduch]

I'm willing to bet Rongen and De Klerk will be out the door at seasons end.

De Klerk was given a new role much like Dasovic was.

And I think Rongen is preparing for his post TFC career by getting into broadcasting.

[Joe Kool]

Well,Cohrane said in his last interview that he want TFC see to be top 10 in Conference,being last next year will do exactly where he and FO want us to be,top 10.

His interview was comical and pretty disheartening....he said a few times "we got to get this right". I remember those exact words from Anselmi several times at end of the last few years and during the whole hiring of Klinsmann thing. If they didn't get it right then why would they get it right now. Just 8-9 players away from a competitive squad....yada yada yada. Just like someone else said in one of these threads recently (can't recall who) that supporters have a bullshit detector now so lip service like that don't fly anymore with us.

[ryan]

His interview was comical and pretty disheartening....he said a few times "we got to get this right". I remember those exact words from Anselmi several times at end of the last few years and during the whole hiring of Klinsmann thing. If they didn't get it right then why would they get it right now. Just 8-9 players away from a competitive squad....yada yada yada. Just like someone else said in one of these threads recently (can't recall who) that supporters have a bullshit detector now so lip service like that don't fly anymore with us.

8-9 players...when do they start to say...

"we're just a complete team away from being a team"


CMON FUCKIN SAY IT! I will lol inbetween my sobs and sips of poison.

[lobo]

just came across this brilliant piece of work ...

http://www.eastsidestandup.com/toons/06/essu_s6s108.png

[narduch]

When Anselmi was promoted, I was sure that Mariner was guaranteed to be back next year.

But after the events of this week (JDG comments, really awful attendances in 2 games, the continuation of poor results), I'm starting to think that Mariner could be out.

I also wonder if the delay in the season ticket announcement is because they want to hire Mariner's replacement before the send out the notices.

[Joe Kool]

When Anselmi was promoted, I was sure that Mariner was guaranteed to be back next year.

But after the events of this week (JDG comments, really awful attendances in 2 games, the continuation of poor results), I'm starting to think that Mariner could be out.

I also wonder if the delay in the season ticket announcement is because they want to hire Mariner's replacement before the send out the notices.

I don't know so much if there is any delay necessarily. Last year's renewal notice hit my inbox on September 20th. I bet/hoping they are trying to re-jig the numbers/package to better reflect the current state of affairs. Like I said in other previous posts though....not holding my breath.

[Fort York Redcoat]

It's been mentioned multiple times this season and a couple seasons past- Hoping to lose to get a management change.

I understand the concept even though I'd never participate in such a thing but my real question this week would be

Do you think it would matter at this point?

After seeing how many show up the last couple matches I'm certain the new-party-in-town shine of TFC has tarnished for even the most lackadaisical season ticket holder.

Also- With how poor we perform do any of us actually have to HOPE for a loss?

Please share...

[Oldtimer]

I'd rather be wrong about my predictions and have my team win.

However, you almost can't go wrong predicting bad results for Mariner.

[TFC Cityboy]

It's been mentioned multiple times this season and a couple seasons past- Hoping to lose to get a management change.

I understand the concept even though I'd never participate in such a thing but my real question this week would be

Do you think it would matter at this point?

After seeing how many show up the last couple matches I'm certain the new-party-in-town shine of TFC has tarnished for even the most lackadaisical season ticket holder.

Also- With how poor we perform do any of us actually have to HOPE for a loss?

Please share...

as has been stated by many for years, the on-field problems and churning of coaches/players will continue until such time that there is a proper football infrastructure between Coaching and Board- call it what you like(Dir of Soccer etc) but until someone with EXTENSIVE experience MLS management is in there, nothing will change.
And, no, Cochrane is not that man.


If MLSE has not made this step for reasons of cost it has been proven to be false economy.

[TFC07]

I am sure MLSE is feeling pressure to get rid of Mariner. Keep up pressure! :scarf:

[Alonso]

I can't stand Mariner, however, having yet another manager come in makes me shudder.

How would people feel if Thomas Rongen came in as head coach with BDK as assistant?
It continues with the philosophy we previously had and hopfully stops what is turning out to be yet another all out turn over of our players.


The all out turnover is pretty much complete.

If Mariner stays I think Frings and possibly Koevs is doubtful for next year in my opinion.

Not much left from the team that started the first 15 games of this season after that.

:banghead:


And the circus continues....

[jabbronies]

The all out turnover is pretty much complete.

If Mariner stays I think Frings and possibly Koevs is doubtful for next year in my opinion.

Not much left from the team that started the first 15 games of this season after that.

:banghead:


And the circus continues....

A good chunk of the core is still here.
Frings (still here)
Koevs (still here)
Ecks
Avila
Silva
Johnson
Lambe
Henry

The guys who have left, but can still be replaced or already have been replaced:
DeGuzman (needed to go or get a pay cut)
Soolsma - biggest loss this season IMO and we should be looking to find another Soolsma in the off season.
Plata - Still our property and can technically get him back if needed. So not a complete loss.

We've picked up a decent CB in O'Dea
We also still have Hassli as well. Having him and Koevs means we could possibly have two top strikers who can step in to give the other a rest. Which means by Late September both should be healthy and fresh for the post season. Not ideal with the DP slots, but it's what we have and could work.

All in all, we are not completely in the shitter, however, we are now a year behind where we should be. Unless of course we find a top notch Manager who can work some of that 1 season magic we all keep talking about.

[brad]

Also- With how poor we perform do any of us actually have to HOPE for a loss?

Please share...

I'm torn on this - but yes. Nothing do with management or anything like that, but since we are out of the playoffs it's in out best interest to finish dead last. It's in our best interest to finish dead last to ensure we take the top draft pick (assuming we haven't traded it away).

I hate the draft system for this - I hate that sets up a system that benefits my team to lose if playoffs are out.

[scooter]

it may be a shit show
but we have to give mariner a chance to bring in a new winning squad for next year
especially with academy players comming along
fyi
once apon a time rpb used to support tfc

[Wull]

it may be a shit show
but we have to give mariner a chance to bring in a new winning squad for next year
especially with academy players comming along
fyi
once apon a time rpb used to support tfc

we do, some of us choose not to back the people we think are hurting our club from the inside

[Auzzy]

it may be a shit show
but we have to give mariner a chance to bring in a new winning squad for next year
especially with academy players comming along
fyi
once apon a time rpb used to support tfc

Mariner isn't giving most of the Academy players any chance to play, even though the season is already done & dusted.

This FO does not support TFC, therefore no reason to support this FO.

[TFC Cityboy]

Mariner isn't giving most of the Academy players any chance to play, even though the season is already done & dusted.

This FO does not support TFC, therefore no reason to support this FO.

spot on. Likewise Wull.

[tiberius]

I can't stand Mariner, however, having yet another manager come in makes me shudder.

How would people feel if Thomas Rongen came in as head coach with BDK as assistant?
It continues with the philosophy we previously had and hopfully stops what is turning out to be yet another all out turn over of our players.

Stop it Jabbronies - you are making way too much sense. The chance of this happening is zero, since it makes sense. Anselmi and Cochroach have absolutely NO SOCCER SENSE - so just stop teasing us with something that might work. BDK as head coach will work too - he has shown a lot of fight. These clowns can't find their ass with a flashlight, so why are you helping them out???

[tiberius]

Also- With how poor we perform do any of us actually have to HOPE for a loss?

Please share...

I had not given it real consideration until you asked the question. Since ABC and Gran Marnier must go, in order for things to improve, I suppose a longer string of losses actually is in our best interest. That being said, with jumping monkey boy at the helm, we are assured of more losses, so I don't have to wish for it.... IT WILL HAPPEN.

[Belfast_Boy]

A good chunk of the core is still here.
Frings (still here)
Koevs (still here)
Ecks
Avila
Silva
Johnson
Lambe
Henry

The guys who have left, but can still be replaced or already have been replaced:
DeGuzman (needed to go or get a pay cut)
Soolsma - biggest loss this season IMO and we should be looking to find another Soolsma in the off season.
Plata - Still our property and can technically get him back if needed. So not a complete loss.

We've picked up a decent CB in O'Dea
We also still have Hassli as well. Having him and Koevs means we could possibly have two top strikers who can step in to give the other a rest. Which means by Late September both should be healthy and fresh for the post season. Not ideal with the DP slots, but it's what we have and could work.

All in all, we are not completely in the shitter, however, we are now a year behind where we should be. Unless of course we find a top notch Manager who can work some of that 1 season magic we all keep talking about.

hate to say it my friend, but id be shocked if either of those guys wore red again.

[denime]

it may be a shit show
but we have to give mariner a chance to bring in a new winning squad for next year:facepalm:
especially with academy players comming along
fyi
once apon a time rpb used to support tfc

Sorry to disappoint you ,but no decent player wants to come to TFC and Mariner does not give a damn about academy boys,Mariner got enough time to show what he can do and winless in 10 is more than enough for me to say GTFO.

As far RPB Supporting TFC,well we are still supporting TFC,what we don't do is Supporting Useless twats at TFC FO who are ruining this club reputation that I have to feel ashamed if say I support TFC.

[denime]

just came across this brilliant piece of work ...

http://www.eastsidestandup.com/toons/06/essu_s6s108.png


niice!!!

[jabbronies]

hate to say it my friend, but id be shocked if either of those guys wore red again.

I think you are right, but if Mariner were removed and someone proper were installed it could sway them.
At the end of the day, pretty sure they are both still under contract, so technically they are still TFC players.

[Oldtimer]

niice!!!

That's why everyone should read the blogs section. Paul Marhue ("TicToc")'s stuff is frequently posted in there, as well as some excellent analysis by some of the most knowledgeable people on our board.

[Redcoe15]

That's why everyone should read the blogs section. Paul Marhue ("TicToc")'s stuff is frequently posted in there, as well as some excellent analysis by some of the most knowledgeable people on our board.

Yup. His latest deals with the subject of renewing one's season's tickets.

[Abou Sky]

Ok, I know that there is the JDG thing (JDG is supposed to be an ass though so it may have been a 'tit for tat') and there is the Frings thing (Frings is apparently a hot head)

Other than those, why is it that you don't think PM could right the ship in the offseason?

I am not sure he can or can not, but I figure he will have a chance to buy/sell/trade whom he wants in the offseason and make the team 'his'. I don't think it would be a 'tweak' but a pretty big overhaul.

I STILL think that Anselmi has to go, and I am mad as hell but it seems like there are mistakes happening on the field that are not PM, they are a lack of talent on the pitch, things like long balls going directly to the feet of the opposition etc. I can't imagine he says 'give away possession'

As for sideline ranting and raving, to be honest, I like it. If we were winning I think we would all say 'look how PASSIONATE he is'

Anyway, I don't know if I have a stomach for another coach, I guess we will see.

[Brooker]

Heads up...

[v00d00daddy]

Jdg may be an ass (not sure if he is) but that doesn't excuse Mariner.

Same with Frings the hot head. Excuse making.

As for long ball...when kocic and eckersley play 40-50 yard balls theyre only hitting and hoping for the best. That's how that works. We don't have a beckham who can pick out a guy on the run and hit him in full stride with a perfect ball.

Mariner isn't using long ball as an attacking option. He doesn't have an attacking plan. Or whatever it is...it's not working.

All it seems like you're doing is making excuses for Mariner.

Why don't you try telling people why you think PM CAN right the ship.

Your list will be shorter lol

[Canary10]

What happened with Frings that people are calling him a hothead?

[nfitz]

What happened with Frings that people are calling him a hothead?There are rumours floating around that Frings had a hissy fit after Mariner had the gall to criticize Frings performance.

[Ultra & Proud]

Why don't you try telling people why you think PM CAN right the ship.

Your list will be shorter lol

I wouldn't say he can right the ship but I also don't think you can say he can't with the shite line up he has at his disposal now.

Admittedly, I am less than enthused with some of his choices in the starting XI and some sub timings/choices but I don't know his reasoning. Perhaps he wants to reward those who work hardest in training and send messages to those who don't. It's an old school thing but considering the season was already toast in May, it's not a bad thing to set a tone and avoid any Club Med styled trainings or let the 'name' players float and still claim a spot.

Basing anything on this season is pointless. No one could have turned this mess around with that roster and with those injuries. This Winter off season will tell his story. He gets to pick players to play in his system, not someone else's, and get it implemented in the spring with what's hopefully a deeper roster with less high price bench players (Harden, Williams, Cann, Avila).

With that said I would hate to see next year get snowballed to shite like this one did with Winter's stubborn ways. I would give Mariner's 5-7 matches (depending on how many road games start the season) to show something. If it looks a lot like it does now, with no results, then open the back door at BMO and let him hit the road with Earl Cochrane. That way they can get the future rolling earlier by promoting Dichio from the Senior Squad to replace Mariner, graduate our promising future players from the senior squad to the first team, and let Rongen take Cochrane's spot. It's really all in place for that and I see this happening anyways down the road as it would make sense since the Academy is doing well and all these players will be ready to come up and after next season. It would be exactly when Aron Winter said the Academy would have matured to the point that we could rely on it to produce most of our players thus rendering the draft and allocation signings useless.