Paul Mariner end march

[narduch]

Ok, I know that there is the JDG thing (JDG is supposed to be an ass though so it may have been a 'tit for tat') and there is the Frings thing (Frings is apparently a hot head)

Other than those, why is it that you don't think PM could right the ship in the offseason?

I am not sure he can or can not, but I figure he will have a chance to buy/sell/trade whom he wants in the offseason and make the team 'his'. I don't think it would be a 'tweak' but a pretty big overhaul.

I STILL think that Anselmi has to go, and I am mad as hell but it seems like there are mistakes happening on the field that are not PM, they are a lack of talent on the pitch, things like long balls going directly to the feet of the opposition etc. I can't imagine he says 'give away possession'

As for sideline ranting and raving, to be honest, I like it. If we were winning I think we would all say 'look how PASSIONATE he is'

Anyway, I don't know if I have a stomach for another coach, I guess we will see.

I think the smell of printer ink from all the flyers you've been printing is screwing up your brain.

JDG is actually well liked by his team mates. And your Frings comment is retarded.

Please tell us why Mariner should stay. Difficulty: stability isn't a valid excuse.

[Ultra & Proud]

There are rumours floating around that Frings had a hissy fit after Mariner had the gall to criticize Frings performance.
It did take a lot of gall to do it but really, what he said was true. Shouldn't have done it so publicly though.

[Ultra & Proud]

JDG is actually well liked by his team mates.

Maybe but he was one of the guys back in the Cummins and Preki days singled out as one of our Canadian 'trouble' makers. Remember that whole bad dressing room thing. He was one of them.

[narduch]

Maybe but he was one of the guys back in the Cummins and Preki days singled out as one of our Canadian 'trouble' makers. Remember that whole bad dressing room thing. He was one of them.

Not sure how that makes him an asshole though.

[Canary10]

Hadn't heard about the Frings thing. Looks more and more like Mariner is losing players. The Wednesday game against Chicago I watched Mariner absolutely screaming at Ecks to take a short throw-in to someone's feet (can't remember who). Ecks had a look like he was a complete idiot. Almost a look like, "well, it won't quite be a surpise then will it, with you screaming like that." Ecks was one of his guys at one point.

[arsenal]

It did take a lot of gall to do it but really, what he said was true. Shouldn't have done it so publicly though.

While it is true that Frings should not have dove in on that play ..... imagine having to listen to the coach very publicly throw you under the bus for it when the same coach spends countless hours every week praising Terry Dunfield ..... who dives in virtually every play and spends 1/2 of the game off of his feet and sitting/sliding/lying on the turf as a result.

[Ultra & Proud]

Not sure how that makes him an asshole though.

Being at least partly responsible for a dressing room divide would mean that the players on the other side of that divide would consider him an asshole.

[Greatest Ripoff]

There are rumours floating around that Frings had a hissy fit after Mariner had the gall to criticize Frings performance.

While Mariner knew that he was suffering with an injury and had to leave to have surgery on in a few days later.

[Ultra & Proud]

imagine having to listen to the coach very publicly throw you under the bus for it when the same coach spends countless hours every week praising Terry Dunfield ..... who dives in virtually every play and spends 1/2 of the game off of his feet and sitting/sliding/lying on the turf as a result.

But then again that's a player, who no matter how much a ham n' egger he may be, still has a far better passing rating this year than the guy paid exponentially more.

[narduch]

Being at least partly responsible for a dressing room divide would mean that the other side of that divide would consider him an asshole.

Are we going to have to debate the word like the 'hearsay' debate.:D

I think its a stretch to call him an asshole. By people trying hard to make him look bad. People with an agenda to make their favoured manager(s) look better.

From what I've gathered the only mistake De Guzman ever really made was getting over paid (and not living up to expectations). He is generally a stand up guy despite attempts to villify him.

[Ultra & Proud]

While Mariner knew that he was suffering with an injury and had to leave to have surgery on in a few days later.
But truthfully, Frings had been pretty poor most of the season. Definitely worse than last season. I know I was disappointed in his play more than a few times this season and it started back in the AW days with that gaffe against the Fire springing to mind immediately.

[nfitz]

While Mariner knew that he was suffering with an injury and had to leave to have surgery on in a few days later.We have no idea what that was all about. The whole thing might have been cover for something or another.

Not sure why some fans think because they play FIFA2014 or whatever they call it makes them better experts at managing a football team than those who have forgotten more than the fan will ever know.

[narduch]

Not sure why some fans think because they play FIFA2014 or whatever they call it makes them better experts at managing a football team than those who have forgotten more than the fan will ever know.

What a shitty thing to say.

While we're at it. Why even have discussion forums than?

We should just read team press releases.

Who needs critical thought, we should just have all the info shoved down our throats by the club. Because the people there know MUCH more than the fans. The last 6 years prove that.

[v00d00daddy]

It did take a lot of gall to do it but really, what he said was true. Shouldn't have done it so publicly though.

Not that I want Winter back...but Winter was shit on incessantly around here for "throwing players under the bus"

And Mariner is supposed to be a players coach (self proclaimed I might add)

Mariner is a fucking idiot of the highest order. He's stuck in 1985...in the way he speaks...the way he carries himself and most importantly, in the way he has his team play this game.

Nothing he has done has shown that he can turn things around. A winter of player acquisition (he'd rather play Aaron Maund, Jeremy Hall, Terry Dunfield etc. over Eric Avila) will do nothing. He'll bring in a bunch of terrible players or overpay for "decent" ones. It's what he's done so far.

As for the "reward the hardest working".....I hate that argument. That's a tactic for rep coaches. Not pros. Hard work should be mandatory....not some scale by which to determine what players will get you wins.

He was brought in for immediate results. (again..his own words) He failed at that.

TFC should have started the search for the new front office the day they fired Winter. At the very least they should do it as soon as the ownership takeover happens. In the meantime...Mariner should have talked, and performed his way out of any talks of being around next year. Instead, he's sticking around AND may have been given an ultimatum to make the playoffs or else.

Now...do you still have confidence that he's going to make any decisions that will improve the team in the short term AND build in the right direction for the future?

I don't even think he's got the brains to do it....not to mention the fact that he's been given a deadline that will make it impossible.

This team is so messed up....it's well beyond words.

[Abou Sky]

I think the smell of printer ink from all the flyers you've been printing is screwing up your brain.

JDG is actually well liked by his team mates. And your Frings comment is retarded.

Please tell us why Mariner should stay. Difficulty: stability isn't a valid excuse.

It is partly devil's advocate but just the thought of coach #8 turns the stomach.

As for Frings, provoked or not, you shouldn't be getting into brawls after a World Cup match. Of course Arsenal is 100% correct about the criticism/Terry D. thing too.

Should have known this would cause shit to fly.

As for a reason Mariner should stay. Only thing I have is that I can't imagine anyone of quality wanting to come here right now. Top quality coaches don't grow on trees and end up being teflon when it comes to 'scandal' so we would have a hard time getting even a disgraced top manager from Europe unless the guy was caught on camera with an underage prostitute while saying 'My name is XXX and I am now having sex with an underage prostitute, this is a copy of my drivers license'

[nfitz]

What a shitty thing to say.Is it? I fail to comprehend why most here think they are qualified to trash Mariner to such a degree.

And some of the claims are so bizarre. This Frings thing for example. There's only Mariners brief comment at the end of one of the matches. Everything else is just speculation. And I just don't know where this talk is that Frings won't return is coming from. After the surgery Frings has made positive comments about Mariner, and said he'll be back for the final game in October. But no one seems to bring that up ...

[narduch]

Is it? I fail to comprehend why most here think they are qualified to trash Mariner to such a degree.


We are just fans discussing our team on a forum. Why are qualifications required?

You are being unfair if you think that is the standard required to have an opinion among fans.

Why promote censorship? I think you have lost the plot in your need to defend Mariner.

[TOBOR !]

Would Jimmy B get any support around here if he were to be given the reigns, I wonder ?

[nfitz]

We are just fans discussing our team on a forum. Why are qualifications required?Is it discussion though? It seems to be more a line of people being passed the club to beat the dead horse. And to beat anyone who questions whether the horse is actually dead yet.

I see little in the way of actual discussion and debate.

And almost an attempt to avoid any good news. Torsten Frings has said that Mariner was given a thankless task, and he'll be playing for Toronto again this season. We should be cheering!

[Fort York Redcoat]

Is it? I fail to comprehend why most here think they are qualified to trash Mariner to such a degree.

And some of the claims are so bizarre. This Frings thing for example. There's only Mariners brief comment at the end of one of the matches. Everything else is just speculation. And I just don't know where this talk is that Frings won't return is coming from. After the surgery Frings has made positive comments about Mariner, and said he'll be back for the final game in October. But no one seems to bring that up ...

Frings. Hissy fit. Right. And I'm pretty sure someone posted a Frings press release translated already.

[nfitz]

Frings. Hissy fit. Right.I know ... it's unbelievable. But some here took it as gospel.

[narduch]

Is it discussion though?

It is a discussion. Just because it doesn't fit into your viewpoint doesn't change that.

And your attempts to stop people for talking about it make you look sad.

And really, this was big news that just came out yesterday. Of course we are still discussing it.

What else is there to talk about? The team didn't make any big signings on the deadline day that just past (Sep. 15). The results are the same each week. The next game is on Saturday. The renewal prices haven't been released.

So we shouldn't discuss big team news?

[nfitz]

And your attempts to stop people for talking about it make you look sad.I am indeed sad about the one-sided nature and ignorance of it all.

[Ultra & Proud]

Mariner is a fucking idiot of the highest order. He's stuck in 1985...in the way he speaks...the way he carries himself and most importantly, in the way he has his team play this game.
Right now with the obviously shit roster we have after the injuries, which no one should be able to deny, he is asking them to play the absolutely simplest and most straight forward brand of Football available and to execute properly, keep the shape, and limit mistakes. What's out there on the pitch can't even manage to do that properly so what way would you have them play? Ask more of them than they can handle and get blasted 3-1, 5-0 for the remainder of the year? Would that have you and the others, some of whom were railing against him even before his first practice with the squad, happy? Would that have been good to carry over with the players heading into the off season?

Truth is a lot of people made up their minds about Mariner before we even kicked a ball with him in charge so wins, losses, and style wouldn't have meant a thing. I prefer to give him a fair shot and then jump all over him if he fucks it up.

[narduch]

I am indeed sad about the one-sided nature and ignorance of it all.

The only ingnorance is from the stability at all costs side.

[Oldtimer]

Is it discussion though? It seems to be more a line of people being passed the club to beat the dead horse. And to beat anyone who questions whether the horse is actually dead yet.

I see little in the way of actual discussion and debate.



No one's forcing you to post on this board. Besides, you have your account on the U-Sector board ;) , you'll find more people there who like PM. Why not just go there and ignore the more negative viewpoint here? You'll be much happier, and won't have to be defending your viewpoint all of the time.

If you do something, find you hate it and it bothers you, the logical thing is to stop doing what you are doing.

[narduch]

Truth is a lot of people made up their minds about Mariner before we even kicked a ball with him in charge so wins, losses, and style wouldn't have meant a thing. I prefer to give him a fair shot and then jump all over him if he fucks it up.

This is total fallacy.

Personally, I would have liked to see Mariner turfed with Winter, but I was willing to give him a chance. But after seeing him work the past few months I've made up my mind, he is not the guy to run this club.

I do think there were some Winter fans that didn't like Mariner right off the bat. But its disengenuous to say all fans turned on Mariner right away.

[Ultra & Proud]

The only ingnorance is from the stability at all costs side.

Actually, ignorance would have been from the people saying Mariner was shit when he was announced and the team hadn't even practiced with him yet. There were many here.

[narduch]

Actually, ignorance would have been from the people saying Mariner was shit when he was announced and the team hadn't even practiced with him yet. There were many here.

I wasn't one of those people.

[Ultra & Proud]

But its disengenuous to say all fans turned on Mariner right away.

Can you point out where I said all fans or are you just changing people's wording to make your anti-Mariner arguments more valid?

[Oldtimer]

Actually, ignorance would have been from the people saying Mariner was shit when he was announced and the team hadn't even practiced with him yet. There were many here.

That's a gross exaggeration. Maybe one or two did that, the rest waited until his first game and actually saw how he intended the team to play.

[Ultra & Proud]

No one's forcing you to post on this board. Besides, you have your account on the U-Sector board ;) , you'll find more people there who like PM. Why not just go there and ignore the more negative viewpoint here? You'll be much happier, and won't have to be defending your viewpoint all of the time.

If you do something, find you hate it and it bothers you, the logical thing is to stop doing what you are doing.

Same could be said with certain members from here posting all their the negative viewpoints over there then:)

[narduch]

Can you point out where I said all fans or are you just changing people's wording to make your anti-Mariner arguments more valid?

You said a lot, which implies many.

Besides, it appears now that those people weren't ignorant, they actually were pretty good at predicting the road Mariner would lead us to. So you are wrong again.

[Ultra & Proud]

That's a gross exaggeration. Maybe one or two did that, the rest waited until his first game and actually saw how he intended the team to play.
Oh I'm sorry. The rest waited until our AWAY match against the BEST team in our conference with only a couple of days of training to make up their minds. That's totally different.

[narduch]

Om I'm sorry. the rest waiting until our AWAY match against the BEST team in our conference with only a couple of days of training to make up their minds. That's not ignorant at all.

Didn't he have 10 days to train the team before his first match?

[Ultra & Proud]

Didn't he have 3 weeks to train the team before his first match?
Well they waited for two of those weeks to fire Winter (the first one was a week off too) so I imagine he didn't overtake training earlier. If he did someone would have noticed and mentioned it.

[narduch]

Well they waited for two of those weeks to fire Winter (the first one was a week off too) so I imagine he didn't overtake training earlier. If he did someone would have noticed and mentioned it.

Winter was fired on June 7. TFC's next match was June 17.

Wasn't there a story of Mariner being involved on the field training just weeks before Winter was canned?

[Ultra & Proud]

Winter was fired on June 7. TFC's next match was June 17.

Wasn't there a story of Mariner being involved on the field training just weeks before Winter was canned?

It was Saturday June 16th.

And Mariner was doing one on ones with the forwards a couple weeks before.

[jabbronies]

Ok, I know that there is the JDG thing (JDG is supposed to be an ass though so it may have been a 'tit for tat') and there is the Frings thing (Frings is apparently a hot head)

Other than those, why is it that you don't think PM could right the ship in the offseason?

I am not sure he can or can not, but I figure he will have a chance to buy/sell/trade whom he wants in the offseason and make the team 'his'. I don't think it would be a 'tweak' but a pretty big overhaul.

I STILL think that Anselmi has to go, and I am mad as hell but it seems like there are mistakes happening on the field that are not PM, they are a lack of talent on the pitch, things like long balls going directly to the feet of the opposition etc. I can't imagine he says 'give away possession'

As for sideline ranting and raving, to be honest, I like it. If we were winning I think we would all say 'look how PASSIONATE he is'

Anyway, I don't know if I have a stomach for another coach, I guess we will see.

What have you seen from Mariner so far that gives you a reason to believe he can right the ship?

This team can't even do the simplest things correctly. Passing the ball on the ground seems to be a foregoing skill that the players have been told is ok to ignore. His "boot first, think later" approach to football is atrocious. He has allowed players to take comfort in a poor form of football and it's starting to trickle into every aspect of the game (defense, attack, possession).
The players he believes in are mainly work horses with less skill. Which is what the current football being played is tailored to. So he is setting up a system that has nothing to do with what the future of football is heading towards.

Passion alone doesn't make you successful. Let's start thining about the game. Let's focus on the things that actually makes a football team successful.

[narduch]

It was Saturday June 16th.

And Mariner was doing one on ones with the forwards a couple weeks before.

Still more than 3 days to prepare.

[Ultra & Proud]

What have you seen from Mariner so far that gives you a reason to believe he can right the ship?


Nothing to show he can right it and nothing to show he can't to be fair.

No one, with what is available after the injuries, could right this ship. Talent is so low we're lucky we draw or get beat by a goal every game. Should be worse.

[Ultra & Proud]

Still more than 3 days to prepare.

Didn't say 3 either. I guess he had about a week. Then we lost 2-0 to that team. Seven days later we drew Houston and scored 3. We never do that in Houston. It's usually 3-0 Dynamo.

[narduch]

Didn't say 3 either. I guess he had about a week. Then we lost 2-0 to that team. Seven days later we drew Houston and scored 3. We never do that in Houston. It's usually 3-0 Dynamo.

Well, I was being generous. 3 is more than a couple.

[narduch]

nothing to show he can't to be fair.


Speaking of ignorance...

[Ultra & Proud]

Speaking of ignorance...
I don't think you understood the sentence I wrote underneath that or else you missed it. I will put it below.

No one, with what is available after the injuries, could right this ship. Talent is so low we're lucky we draw or get beat by a goal every game. Should be worse.

[starter]

Nothing to show he can right it and nothing to show he can't to be fair.

No one, with what is available after the injuries, could right this ship. Talent is so low we're lucky we draw or get beat by a goal every game. Should be worse.

How about to hear PM vision, would not that be something we can discuss?

Otherwise I could say that I see nothing to indicate that my cat could not right this ship. So far it said almost as much about his vision as PM.

Oh, I also expect to win big in 6/49 any day soon.

[narduch]

I don't think you understood the sentence I wrote underneath that or else you missed it. I will put it below.

No one, with what is available after the injuries, could right this ship. Talent is so low we're lucky we draw or get beat by a goal every game. Should be worse.

I saw it. I just don't think its a valid excuse for a manager brought in for results now.

I was hoping that Mariner would have done a better job to improve the talent during the summer window. I don't think he did a good enough job.

You're essentially saying you've seen no flaws in Mariner, which is laughable.

[Ultra & Proud]

I saw it. I just don't think its a valid excuse for a manager brought in for results now.

I was hoping that Mariner would have done a better job to improve the talent during the summer window. I don't think he did a good enough job.

With what cap space and allocation?

We had 3 DPs, Eck on nearly $400k for the rest of the year, near $300k on Cann, Williams, and Harden, and 3 GKs at the time.

And who would take on Cann, Williams, or Harden in a trade?

[Ultra & Proud]

I saw it. I just don't think its a valid excuse for a manager brought in for results now.

You're essentially saying you've seen no flaws in Mariner, which is laughable.

I do in his line up selections and substitutions as posted earlier if you look.

And I never said he was the right guy. In my opinion it's too early and the roster is too shit to say that yet. All I ever said was give him a chance over the Winter break, the pre-season, and for a handful of matches to start the year. Then judge. That way any excuses/reasons for the team being what and how it is would be moot.

[Ultra & Proud]

We had 3 DPs, Eck on nearly $400k for the rest of the year, near $300k on Cann, Williams, and Harden, and 3 GKs at the time.
And before you go on about the overpaying players thing that wasn't Mariner's department. That was Cochrane's. He was and is the contract guy.

[backbeat]

I do in his line up selections and substitutions as posted earlier if you look.

And I never said he was the right guy. In my opinion it's too early and the roster is too shit to say that yet. All I ever said was give him a chance over the Winter break, the pre-season, and for a handful of matches to start the year. Then judge. That way any excuses/reasons for the team being what and how it is would be moot.

Mariner was the one when he took over as head coach said that there was not much to be done to make the team competitive - just a bit of tinkering he said. also he was actually with the organization for the prior 18 mths, he wasn't a newbie.

since taking over he has, imo, reduced the quality of the team - has them playing boring football and his record sucks - so why should we even consider keeping him?

[pdogg]

With what cap space and allocation?

We had 3 DPs, Eck on nearly $400k for the rest of the year, near $300k on Cann, Williams, and Harden, and 3 GKs at the time.

And who would take on Cann, Williams, or Harden in a trade?

He still managed to find space for another DP, O'Dea (can't be cheap) and a 4th GK. Why sign a 4th GK if you were so cap constrained? Why spend the max you can on a player for half a season (Hassli)?

[nfitz]

Why sign a 4th GK if you were so cap constrained?I don't think Roberts touches the cap, as a young home-grown player (and he's only at $33,000). And I thought we got some cap relief with Frei out for the season. Kocic is only at $44,000 - less than Nicholas Lindsay. Presumably we need 2 keepers next year. Kocic and Hall. I'm not sure what Hall is getting, but I can't imagine much more than Kocic at the most. Combined they are less than Frei on the 2014 budget.

[Ultra & Proud]

He still managed to find space for another DP, O'Dea (can't be cheap) and a 4th GK. Why sign a 4th GK if you were so cap constrained? Why spend the max you can on a player for half a season (Hassli)?
O' Dea is not a DP. That was reported already but his salary wasn't yet as far as I know. The 4th GK was a waste for sure but Roberts doesn't count against the cap. Not sure if Frei does while injured either. MLS rules are odd. And Hassli would only be $167k for the half year and would be no different than JDG with whom he was basically moved for in the end.

[spark]

Didn't say 3 either. I guess he had about a week. Then we lost 2-0 to that team. Seven days later we drew Houston and scored 3. We never do that in Houston. It's usually 3-0 Dynamo.

Except when we had De Ro!!

[v00d00daddy]

Actually, ignorance would have been from the people saying Mariner was shit when he was announced and the team hadn't even practiced with him yet. There were many here.

Unless Mariners contributions prior to being made coach mean nothing to you, it's totally acceptable for people to have hated his appointment.

He was and continues to be a part of the problem. To think that just because he wasn't coach before he gets a blank slate is awfully optimistic.

I gave him a chance when he said he would make just some minor tweaks.

Then I realised it was a lie. He went to a brand of football I despise.

That was enough for me.

[v00d00daddy]

And those saying that he should be given a chance.

Answer these two questions:

1. Why, in a team lacking so much quality, does Avila get pinned to the bench?

2. If Mariner has any tactical brains, why doesn't he use his subs? Often going 80+ minutes with a team that has played a lot of games and in game situations where its obvious to everyone that there are players labouring.

[Ultra & Proud]

I gave him a chance when he said he would make just some minor tweaks.
I think Mariner was being awfully optimistic when he said that actually. I knew this roster needed more than a few tweaks. Everyone who watched our matches should have known that. After a fairly dreadful 1-9 start I think 'minor tweaks' just weren't going to cut it. We still need a ton of major tweaks now.

One thing that has happened under his watch, no matter how it plays out for Mariner next season, is that we have what looks like the best central defender we've ever had on board.

[Ultra & Proud]

And those saying that he should be given a chance.

Answer these two questions:

1. Why, in a team lacking so much quality, does Avila get pinned to the bench?

2. If Mariner has any tactical brains, why doesn't he use his subs? Often going 80+ minutes with a team that has played a lot of games and in game situations where its obvious to everyone that there are players labouring.
Someone said Avila was a floater in practice. Can't remember what reporter mentioned it. Plus, although he is way better than Maund, he still is invisible for most of every match he is in. And he's been like that for his entire career. Not just now.

And I don't like Mariner's substitutions either. Not that he has a lot of good bench options but he still waits far too long to pull the trigger.

[starter]

I think Mariner was being awfully optimistic when he said that actually. I knew this roster needed more than a few tweaks. Everyone who watched our matches should have known that. After a fairly dreadful 1-9 start I think 'minor tweaks' just weren't going to cut it. We still need a ton of major tweaks now.

One thing that has happened under his watch, no matter how it plays out for Mariner next season, is that we have what looks like the best central defender we've ever had on board.
I would venture to suggest he knew he would dismantle the team all along -- he was around long enough to have his opinion and plans set. He has just simply lied, not just to us, but perhaps to Tom as well, just to get the job. He is no good news.

[Ultra & Proud]

I would venture to suggest he knew he would dismantle the team all along -- he was around long enough to have his opinion and plans set. He has just simply lied, not just to us, but perhaps to Tom as well, just to get the job. He is no good news.
I'm sure he did. They all did and they didn't want to say it to the masses because of the anger against so much change in the past.

Also, who cares if he lied to us. He owes us nothing. He has to do what he thinks is right for the team. Listening to us is what got previous regimes in trouble.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Not sure why some fans think because they play FIFA2014 or whatever they call it makes them better experts at managing a football team than those who have forgotten more than the fan will ever know.

Right....I don't play video games. And what is it that makes your opinion so fucking important? Other than trolling on this board what do you have to offer?

[pdogg]

O' Dea is not a DP. That was reported already but his salary wasn't yet as far as I know. The 4th GK was a waste for sure but Roberts doesn't count against the cap. Not sure if Frei does while injured either. MLS rules are odd. And Hassli would only be $167k for the half year and would be no different than JDG with whom he was basically moved for in the end.

No he's not, the DP is Hassli in my comment. I was saying he acquired a DP (Hassli), O'Dea and a 4th GK. Even if the cap swap was the same for DeGuzman & Hassli, could that not have been better spent on two players at 167k each instead (1/2 of that for the 1/2 season). O'Dea, again, would not have come at a cheap price. And if you already have a keeper in Roberts that isn't hitting the cap, why pick up another that does?

[backbeat]

I think Mariner was being awfully optimistic when he said that actually. I knew this roster needed more than a few tweaks. Everyone who watched our matches should have known that. After a fairly dreadful 1-9 start I think 'minor tweaks' just weren't going to cut it. We still need a ton of major tweaks now.

One thing that has happened under his watch, no matter how it plays out for Mariner next season, is that we have what looks like the best central defender we've ever had on board.

well that speaks volumes to me!! if we knew it and he didn't, and he's getting paid to know, why on earth are we prepared to give him the keys for another season??

[nfitz]

And what is it that makes your opinion so fucking important?I don't think my opinion is no important than anyone else's. What makes you think my opinion is so fucking important?

I don't object to anyone else's opinion. What I object to is the unnecessary and often unfounded character assassination of a professional, which comes across like a toddler's temper tantrum, trying to convince you to have another cookie.

For example the claims further up the thread of Mariner's alcoholism. When challenged no evidence was provided. And the unfounded claims that Frings had a huge disagreement with Mariner and would never play for him again, which Frings personally debunked.

Everything is so personal. He drinks ... he lies. I see little of "Mariner plays a very defensive game, rather than the attacking style I like to watch".

[v00d00daddy]

Someone said Avila was a floater in practice. Can't remember what reporter mentioned it. Plus, although he is way better than Maund, he still is invisible for most of every match he is in. And he's been like that for his entire career. Not just now.

Well Avila must be the only starter quality guy on the team that is a "floater" in practice then. And I guess it take 10-12 games to teach him a lesson.

Sorry, but I don't buy it.

Reggie Lambe is non existent some games too. Surely that isn't the measuring stick that Mariner uses.

Bottom line is that Mariner leaves one of the only skilled midfielders he has on the bench, all the time. Avila is expensive too. It's such a waste from both a tactical, and economical standpoint.

Denime also mentioned that players like Cordon have been told to find a new club next year.

So what we have is a situation where:

-the club expects the playoff next year from Cochrane and Mariner
-Cochrane (and presumably Mariner) believes that we need 4 new starters and 4-5 depth players
-Mariner doesn't seem to think that playing some of the young players now to see what we have is a good idea and he may have already told some to pack their bags.

I just can't see enough reasons to keep the guy.

The only one I can come up with is the O'Dea signing (which I think is a good one) but that also depends on how much he's gonna be paid. And even with O'Dea, I see a lot of shortcomings...but he's still the best we've had so I have to see it as a positive.

Everything else Mariner does gets a negative score from me. Even the Hassli trade. It was a waste too.

[Greatest Ripoff]

I don't object to anyone else's opinion.


No you just try to belittle people with statements like this, "Not sure why some fans think because they play FIFA2014 or whatever they call it makes them better experts at managing a football team than those who have forgotten more than the fan will ever know."

[nfitz]

No you just try to belittle people with statements like this, "Not sure why some fans think because they play FIFA2014 or whatever they call it makes them better experts at managing a football team than those who have forgotten more than the fan will ever know."Sorry, that wasn't really aimed at you. I'll accept a yellow for that.

[ag futbol]

Well Avila must be the only starter quality guy on the team that is a "floater" in practice then. And I guess it take 10-12 games to teach him a lesson.

Sounds a lot like chopping off your nose to spite your face.

I think the word "invisable" was used somewhere in there. I have never seen a more anonymous performance from anyone in our midfield than Maund.

[Benficachop20]

Is it discussion though? It seems to be more a line of people being passed the club to beat the dead horse. And to beat anyone who questions whether the horse is actually dead yet.

I see little in the way of actual discussion and debate.


well if u want a discussion why don't u answer the question that many members haves asked "why should mariner stay for next season?" i've seen this question so many times but none of the pro mariner fans have given any answers besides stability. I wanna hear actual good reason's rather than stability, otherwise u have no right to complain mariner... errr i mean nfitz.

[nfitz]

well if u want a discussion why don't u answer the question that many members haves asked "why should mariner stay for next season?" i've seen this question so many times but none of the pro mariner fans have given any answers besides stability. I wanna hear actual good reason's rather than stability, otherwise u have no right to complain mariner... errr i mean nfitz.This was so 5 minutes ago. I have about 3 times already. I think at this stage, now that it's been confirmed that Mariner will be back next year, that we simply wait and see what happens. I'll quickly concede I was wrong if he starts 0-0-9.

[Shakes McQueen]

Not sure why some fans think because they play FIFA2014 or whatever they call it makes them better experts at managing a football team than those who have forgotten more than the fan will ever know.

This is one of the oldest and lamest of logical fallacies. By this line of reasoning virtually nonse of us have any business ever criticizing anything this team does, because of their "expertise" in managing a football team, and our lack thereof.

I have no business criticizing any player ever, because I'm not a professional soccer player!
You have no business criticizing MLSE, because you're never owned a soccer team!
We have no business criticizing Mariner, because we've never been a soccer manager!

Just keep spending your money, and don't question the experts, you rubes.

Attack the arugments being made, not the personal expertise of the people making them.

- Scott

[nfitz]

Attack the arugments being made, not the personal expertise of the people making them.I already apologised for the comment. Why have you stirred it up again?

[v00d00daddy]

I already apologised for the comment. Why have you stirred it up again?

Because you didnt really apologise. Lol

You apologised to one person and implied that it was for someone else.

Hence, maintaining the level of insult and disdain for some other persons expertise.

[nfitz]

Because you didnt really apologise.I apologised to the person I made the comment to. It was an unfair comment to make to him.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Everything is so personal. He drinks ... he lies. I see little of "Mariner plays a very defensive game, rather than the attacking style I like to watch".

I agree that some remarks or nicknames etc are blown out of proportion but you'll continue to be frustrated waiting for the level of analytical discourse you're craving sans passion. This place (and most sports forums) are full of passion.

P.S.- Your likening users to toddler's with temper tantrums is exceptionally close to some of the comments you are damning about Mariner. Be careful re: Pot and the Kettle.

[London]

our newest player say tfc is mentally weak, who do we think is responsible for the mentality of the roster?????


lots of confidence will be built hoofing the ball upfield for sure

[Ultra & Proud]

I have never seen a more anonymous performance from anyone in our midfield than Maund.

I disagree. I wish he was invisible. That would be an improvement. He is all negative as far as I can see.

[Ultra & Proud]

our newest player say tfc is mentally weak, who do we think is responsible for the mentality of the roster?????


lots of confidence will be built hoofing the ball upfield for sure

Confidence comes with defending leads, clean sheets, winning, etc. One thing Mariner has done is lower our GA by using this type of defensive system. That has helped the back line.

Problem is that we have a very young squad and they don't all bother to keep their focus for 90+ minutes. Staying 'in the game' for every play isn't something a manager or coach can teach you. It's something you should know by the the time you make the pro leagues. Before that actually but in the NCAA or CSL you can get away with lapses due to league wide poor quality. Here, you get punished for those miscues more often than not. That commitment to their profession comes with age and experience and with on field guidance, which guys like Frings and O' Dea can provide. This is why I have said over and over that I hope TFC try to get a more veteran MLS presence on the roster for next season. Having experienced, vocal players in all areas of the formation will help the younger guys stay focused and do their jobs properly. A manager shouting from the side lines can only do so much.

[Abou Sky]

The only ingnorance is from the stability at all costs side.

You are blowing it WAY out of proportion.

It isn't 'stability at all costs' but they guy gave away a bunch of players (if a player is waived and doesn't get picked up you just lose the allocation money for the season)

He must be playing with something like $1.2-$1.7m of allocation at this point.

I just think he needs to have a chance to play HIS squad.

[ag futbol]

I just think he needs to have a chance to play HIS squad.
I don't think that's warranted. He can't just wash his hands of the roster we have, he needs to take some responsibility for it. Second, he's been given 2/3 of a season and a transfer window to show us what he can do. That should be enough for us to judge as it is for someone who should be nothing more than an intern coach.

All we've seen so far is backwards tactics, terrible player selection, and scary transfer moves. I think people who assume he's going to get the players he wants in the next window are having the wool pulled over their eyes. Many a manager has claimed that, and it simply never happens. If you can find talent, you may not have a 100% hit rate but you consistently add good pieces. The only way we have been able to do that so far is to overpay, which isn't sustainable.

The talk is we need players, but I see absolutely no indication we are going to be able to find them. I think we should be asking someone else to look.

[tfcleeds]

I don't just judge Mariner on his time as manager. He's been involved with this club way longer than that. His time on the clock started when he was first hired, as far as I'm concerned. He hasn't inspired me with confidence in either of the positions he's held.

[ryan]

You are blowing it WAY out of proportion.

It isn't 'stability at all costs' but they guy gave away a bunch of players (if a player is waived and doesn't get picked up you just lose the allocation money for the season)

He must be playing with something like $1.2-$1.7m of allocation at this point.

I just think he needs to have a chance to play HIS squad.

Just like Winter had a chance to build HIS squad, right?

in before...

...Mariner had nothing to do with Winter's roster...

...Mariner clearly was the one who acquired guys like Eckersley, give him 100% credit!


/suicide

[Greatest Ripoff]

I just think he needs to have a chance to play HIS squad.

Toronto – Milos Kocic; Jeremy Hall, Richard Eckersley, Darren O'Dea, Logan Emory; Reggie Lambe, Aaron Maund, Terry Dunfield, Ryan Johnson; Luis Silva, Eric Hassli (Quincy Amarikwa 80')

Which of these players aren't his Squad?

[lobo]

I'm sure he did. They all did and they didn't want to say it to the masses because of the anger against so much change in the past.

Also, who cares if he lied to us. He owes us nothing. He has to do what he thinks is right for the team. Listening to us is what got previous regimes in trouble.

Are you serious?????? The cash paying customer is owed nothing???? The loyal supporter is owed nothing????

Wow. Just wow. You're actually willing to excuse lying to us in your efforts to support Mariner.

[Ultra & Proud]

Are you serious?????? The cash paying customer is owed nothing???? The loyal supporter is owed nothing????
Wow. Just wow. You're actually willing to excuse lying to us in your efforts to support Mariner.
Well because everyone on these boards is so even keeled and relaxed that saying we needed an ass load of change during his first presser wouldn't have caused an immediate frenzy and you know, people freaking out about his appointment as manager before the first kick of the ball or anything :facepalm: And I'm not doing anything to defend Mariner or anyone else. I'm saying that I don't care what any of our managers tell us, even when Winter said we were good and outplaying teams when we got beat 3-0, when Mariner calls shite player X the greatest finisher of all time, when all our managers say we're X amount of players away, who the f*ck cares? It's what management does. They tell the punters what they want to hear. As long as the manager(s) are working to improve the club behind the scenes then I am good. I don't want the higher ups to start listening to board chatter again as suggestions on what to do because even though a lot of folks think they know it all about Football and talk shit on Mariner, he's been there and done it in places none of us will ever be. He's forgotten more about Football than most of us would ever experience.

And no that doesn't make him a good manager or the guy to right the ship. It makes him what we got and we might as well just relax and see what he can do over the winter break instead of whining for the next 6 months about something that isn't changing.

[lobo]

Well because everyone on these boards is so even keeled and relaxed that saying we needed an ass load of change during his first presser wouldn't have caused an immediate frenzy and you know, people freaking out about his appointment as manager before the first kick of the ball or anything :facepalm: And I'm not doing anything to defend Mariner or anyone else. I'm saying that I don't care what any of our managers tell us, even when Winter said we were good and outplaying teams when we got beat 3-0, when Mariner calls shite player X the greatest finisher of all time, when all our managers say we're X amount of players away, who the f*ck cares? It's what management does. They tell the punters what they want to hear. As long as the manager(s) are working to improve the club behind the scenes then I am good. I don't want the higher ups to start listening to board chatter again as suggestions on what to do because even though a lot of folks think they know it all about Football and talk shit on Mariner, he's been there and done it in places none of us will ever be. He's forgotten more about Football than most of us would ever experience.

And no that doesn't make him a good manager or the guy to right the ship. It makes him what we got and we might as well just relax and see what he can do over the winter break instead of whining for the next 6 months about something that isn't changing.

got it. you expect to be lied to. but at the same time you put all your faith in the guys that are lying to you.

sorry, i'm not gonna relax about this. i'm gonna loudly protest their mismanagement. Mariner is just wrong in so many ways and he's had plenty of time to show what he's got, he's been here since Jan 2011. He's currently on a winless streak to match the one that got Winter fired. I think i speak for a lot of ppl here, but Mariner inspires zero confidence managing the squad. He's gutted the roster, mismanaged the bench, alienated players, brought in garbage, put that garbage in starting XI, lied to supporters and media, and above all that, he has decided that the long term vision the club started just one year ago is wrong, and replaced it with some amateur school yard one dimensional style that we don't need to see any further to evaluate. As far as I'm concerned, Mariner cannot right the ship, but there is very good possibility he will steer it further off course if he is allowed to continue.

[Ultra & Proud]

at the same time you put all your faith in the guys that are lying to you.

Well I did with Winter and everyone else we've had. I am putting no faith in Mariner and I said that earlier. He may succeed, he may fail. I'm not saying either way, I just said to give him a chance. The way I see it, and I mentioned it earlier, is that Rongen and Dichio will be running the show after Mariner. That way both these guys get another half to full year under their belts at the Academy and then step in with their new and (from what I've heard) MLS ready bunch of grads.

[starter]

Well I did with Winter and everyone else we've had. I am putting no faith in Mariner and I said that earlier. He may succeed, he may fail. I'm not saying either way, I just said to give him a chance. The way I see it, and I mentioned it earlier, is that Rongen and Dichio will be running the show after Mariner. That way both these guys get another half to full year under their belts at the Academy and then step in with their new and (from what I've heard) MLS ready bunch of grads.
Respectfully, the energy you put in defending Mariner, just to give him a 'fair shot' seems disproportional to faith you have in him. You openly agree that he is probably a lair, has no stated vision, and no track of execution, but still he deserves a shot beyond current season? Just because he can? Is that suppose to make him popular? Is there some sort of connection or interest you may have in him staying?

I am tired of the negativity myself, and seeing Mariner longer does little to change that.

[tiberius]

Is it? I fail to comprehend why most here think they are qualified to trash Mariner to such a degree.

And some of the claims are so bizarre. This Frings thing for example. There's only Mariners brief comment at the end of one of the matches. Everything else is just speculation. And I just don't know where this talk is that Frings won't return is coming from. After the surgery Frings has made positive comments about Mariner, and said he'll be back for the final game in October. But no one seems to bring that up ...

Soooo... I am confused - why the hell did you throw Frings under the bus a few posts back, the same way Mariner did? Seems a bit disingenuous to me - but hey, what do I know. Mariner is an absolute dork - do us all a favour and just admit it, and then move on...

[Fort York Redcoat]

^I don't think whether our coach is a "dork" is what we're trying to nail down. Here we're discussing his results at the end of the season justify his contract renewal given earlier this year.

[lobo]

Mariner Confidence Ratings


MLSE

100%



Press

70%



Players

40%



Supporters

10%



Fans

what fans?

[Oldtimer]

So let's revisit the post that started it all, updated with the actual results (in bold):


So now the time of the great "tweak" is on the down-stretch, and Paul Mariner has some difficult games ahead:

Columbus (predict tie) actual was a loss
Houston (loss) tie
Santos Laguna (loss) loss
Sporting KC (loss) loss
Chicago (loss) loss
Philadelphia (win) tie
LA (loss) loss

I don't think he will pull off a winning record by the end of this string of games. Other teams have seen his tactics, and adjusted their strategies accordingly. I believe that we are seeing the last games that Paul Mariner will be in charge of this team. The great question is, when will he be fired (or re-assigned)? Just before season ticket renewals? At the end of the season? Some time in the off-season?

Incredibly, the results were even worse than predicted, with TFC picking up only 2 points in that long string of games instead of 4. That is beyond "shambolic."

Any half-decent management would have fired Mariner by now, however this being TFC,all indications look like he will be back at least for the first half of next season. :facepalm:

[Abou Sky]

So let's revisit the post that started it all, updated with the actual results (in bold):



Incredibly, the results were even worse than predicted, with TFC picking up only 2 points in that long string of games instead of 4. That is beyond "shambolic."

Any half-decent management would have fired Mariner by now, however this being TFC,all indications look like he will be back at least for the first half of next season. :facepalm:

Wow!

Oldtimer is usually this rock of wisdom and moderation.

For him to be calling out like that, stuff is über fucked!

[Redcoe15]

Mariner Confidence Ratings



MLSE


100%




Press


70%




Players


40%




Supporters


10%




Fans


what fans?






100% accurate!

[KGH]

So let's revisit the post that started it all, updated with the actual results (in bold):



Incredibly, the results were even worse than predicted, with TFC picking up only 2 points in that long string of games instead of 4. That is beyond "shambolic."

Any half-decent management would have fired Mariner by now, however this being TFC,all indications look like he will be back at least for the first half of next season. :facepalm:

And I could see us going winless for the remainder of the season. We've got NY in NY next saturday and they're trying to move up for a better playoff spot. We've then got DC at home and DC is fighting to get in to the playoffs. The only chance I see us having is against Montreal at home. We've got a 2 week break before this match. Maybe the boys will get up for this match. Or Maybe Montreal will want to burry us. And then we finish the season at Columbus 4 days after we go down to SL and take a beating.

The best I see us doing is 0 wins, 1 Tie, and 3 losses.

[flamehawk]

http://twitter.com/kurtlarsun

Someone called Kurt Larson out on his continued defence of Paul Mariner. More bs from the media.

[OgtheDim]

Larson ignoring the whole point that Mariner was here BEFORE Winter was fired and is responsible for the team that Winter had that went 0-9-0. That and his suggestion that only people who were there for the idiot comment can call Mariner out is cowardly - that's your job Sun boy.

[SirBobSaget]

So much revisionist history going on by Larson, its infuriating.
A) Mariner was brought in for IMMEDIATE results and to "bring smiles onto the faces of fans at BMO field"
B) Mariner and Cochrane WERE RESPONSIBLE for player acquisition

Now he is saying the players hated Winter? Whatever. They don't seem all that fond of the new guy as evidenced by actions.

[Section 117]

http://twitter.com/kurtlarsunSomeone called Kurt Larson out on his continued defence of Paul Mariner. More bs from the media.That was me... There is so many issues that I can't disclose. But his responses were a joke. He doesn't think anything was wrong when Mariner called the players idiots at the coaching clinic. He and many of the media are in tight with the PM and EC and nothing will change unless the FO get sacked

[flamehawk]

That was me... There is so many issues that I can't disclose. But his responses were a joke. He doesn't think anything was wrong when Mariner called the players idiots at the coaching clinic. He and many of the media are in tight with the PM and EC and nothing will change unless the FO get sacked


Thanks for that.

According to Larson, calling people idiots is "Not a big deal, IMHO"

sigh..

[ag futbol]

Well think about this: Toronto Sun breaks TFC players get arrested in drunken bar fight story. Much speculation that a certain TFC staff member has a relationship with a certain reporter....

All speculation of course, but I'll let someone else connect the dots.

[Richard]

Yeh how about we ship these type of individuals to communist countries, bring some real journalists over who would die for the oppourtunity to express freedom of speech. Its fucking pathetic and makes a mockery of the profession.

[TFC07]

Yeh how about we ship these type of individuals to communist countries, bring some real journalists over who would die for the oppourtunity to express freedom of speech. Its fucking pathetic and makes a mockery of the profession.

Yeah, seems like "soccer" journalists in this city are too close with TFC and don't think/write objectively. Seems like MLSE controls these "journalists" as pawns to sell us their shit.

This is why I like coming here where we can discuss and find out what's really going on.

[jloome]

Yeah, seems like "soccer" journalists in this city are too close with TFC and don't think/write objectively. Seems like MLSE controls these "journalists" as pawns to sell us their shit.

This is why I like coming here where we can discuss and find out what's really going on.

I've worked with tab sports reporters for twenty years and a fair swath have a complete lack of humility, due to competitive natures. Once they've taken a stand, they're loathe to ever change it and the humiliation they feel at being presented with clearly contrary information usually causes them to change the subject and say "ah, who gives a shit. It's just soccer."

[ouderwien]

Kurtis Larson‏@KurtLarSUN@PBonofiglio (http://redpatchboys.ca/PBonofiglio) My position is see where the club is at next March. If it's still garbage, then I'll be harsher on the front office.

Not sure how to quote properly but Larson tweeted this earlier today, I'm going to try and remember that.

[sashavukelich]

Well because everyone on these boards is so even keeled and relaxed that saying we needed an ass load of change during his first presser wouldn't have caused an immediate frenzy and you know, people freaking out about his appointment as manager before the first kick of the ball or anything :facepalm: And I'm not doing anything to defend Mariner or anyone else. I'm saying that I don't care what any of our managers tell us, even when Winter said we were good and outplaying teams when we got beat 3-0, when Mariner calls shite player X the greatest finisher of all time, when all our managers say we're X amount of players away, who the f*ck cares? It's what management does. They tell the punters what they want to hear. As long as the manager(s) are working to improve the club behind the scenes then I am good. I don't want the higher ups to start listening to board chatter again as suggestions on what to do because even though a lot of folks think they know it all about Football and talk shit on Mariner, he's been there and done it in places none of us will ever be. He's forgotten more about Football than most of us would ever experience.

And no that doesn't make him a good manager or the guy to right the ship. It makes him what we got and we might as well just relax and see what he can do over the winter break instead of whining for the next 6 months about something that isn't changing.

++ Thank the Lord someone is talking sense.

[starter]

++ Thank the Lord someone is talking sense.
Respectfully, when you are on a highway and everybody else driving the 'wrong way', they might just realize something you do not.

[lobo]

Kurtis Larson‏@KurtLarSUN@PBonofiglio (http://redpatchboys.ca/PBonofiglio) My position is see where the club is at next March. If it's still garbage, then I'll be harsher on the front office.

Not sure how to quote properly but Larson tweeted this earlier today, I'm going to try and remember that.

march is too late, but ... there's always 2014


++ Thank the Lord someone is talking sense.

that sense he was talking about places a lot of confidence in our FO, which doesn't make any sense at this point ... he's still got faith in the suits and shorts being able to right the ship that they've already run onto the rocks

[Couchy81]

++ Thank the Lord someone is talking sense.


It is not sensible to scrap a plan that took over a year and many millions of dollars to implement simply to save face at the cost of future success. It's spineless and MLSE has no balls for not sticking to the original plan.

Larson tweeted that Winter went 0-9 and Mariner is now only 0-4. Talk about putting a spin on things.

[PAOK17]

When he says 0-4 is he meaning Mariner's longest losing streak? It's also convenient for Larson to mention Winter's 0-9, yet forgets to mention that in CCL against good opposition we only lost once (in Mexico-surprise, surprise) and went undefeated in 4 matches for the Canadian Championship.

So in 2012, Winter is 4-4-10 which is still really bad. But is it really that much worse than 5-7-11, from Mariner? But, Mariner deserves his chance to change his roster further. By the way, why do we put more faith in the winter transfer season anyway? I know it's our off season, but there tend to be better players available in the summer transfer season due to that being when most contracts expire. All you get in the winter are either players that are released from their teams or trades within the MLS.

[bones]

Yeah, seems like "soccer" journalists in this city are too close with TFC and don't think/write objectively. Seems like MLSE controls these "journalists" as pawns to sell us their shit.

This is why I like coming here where we can discuss and find out what's really going on.

All of MLSE's teams are owned by .... the 2 largest media companies in the country. Think about why people would want to lick their asses for a second... Expect more and more of this as time goes on and not just with TFC. I said this when Belgers (the monkey) purchased the MLSE (the organ grinder) it's going to change everything.

[nonc]

When i find myself irritated i just remember that TFC reporting is propaganda on such an overtly high level, you can't help but laugh. History will not remember these ass-clown journalists, if they have any legacy it will be one of negativity and bureaucratic ballesness - a blight, an embarrassment. The only reason they maintain their position is because they have less integrity and idealism than everyone else, and absolutely none of it upon command.

[flamehawk]

Kurt Larson is asking whether people think Mariner should stay. People should probably wake him up to the large-scale dissatisfaction of Mariner's management.

[denime]

Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN

(https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN) Asking followers ... Should Mariner be given an offseason to fix #TFC (https://twitter.com/search/?q=%23TFC&src=hash), making the roster completely his own? Why or why not ...




I barely use Twitter but for this occasion I'll let him know what I think about Mariner.

[gate7]

can anyone give a plus/minus stat for Winter and Mariner?? that would be interesting to see. BTW the fact is simple, this team is still tanking. Therefore I believe Winter was not the problem as much as what was originally believed. IMO this is a shit organization and I don't see that changing over the off season. I also think there was some dirty work done against Winter and I know I'm not the only one who thinks that.

[denime]

can anyone give a plus/minus stat for Winter and Mariner?? that would be interesting to see. BTW the fact is simple, this team is still tanking. Therefore I believe Winter was not the problem as much as what was originally believed. IMO this is a shit organization and I don't see that changing over the off season. I also think there was some dirty work done against Winter and I know I'm not the only one who thinks that.

Check this thread for that:

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?32763-Winter-vs-Mariner-the-statistical-breakdown

[gate7]

:) tnx.