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TFCRegina
08-14-2012, 11:04 PM
LVQRrq9M5gE

or use this

http://www.rednationonline.ca/Countdown2012/CountdownCanadavsTrinidadandTobago.aspx

JDG hits TFC management pretty hard...

ArmenJBX
08-14-2012, 11:21 PM
You can just see the contempt on his face. He is not pleased with Toronto FC.

TFCRegina
08-14-2012, 11:35 PM
"Finally enjoy the game again..." How fucking sad is that.

Cashcleaner
08-14-2012, 11:40 PM
"Still missing planning and direction" - Julian de Guzman

Yeah, that sounds about right to me. He did mention that we've got a good structure in place with the facilities and fans and support, though.

ArmenJBX
08-14-2012, 11:42 PM
"Still missing planning and direction" - Julian de Guzman

Yeah, that sounds about right to me. He did mention that we've got a good structure in place with the facilities and fans and support, though.

It's basically saying anything they could have thrown cash at, they did, but they still have no idea what they're doing.
It's buying a Ferrari and putting Simple Jack behind the wheel.

U-n_zk7e0ZU

TFCRegina
08-14-2012, 11:44 PM
It's basically saying anything they could have thrown cash at, they did, but they still have no idea what they're doing.
It's buying a Ferrari and putting Simple Jack behind the wheel.

U-n_zk7e0ZU

You never go full Retard

Whoop
08-15-2012, 12:17 AM
No surprise when you have the coach looking at things one way and a GM looking at things another way while those running the academy see things another.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
08-15-2012, 02:57 AM
he could get back to europe with Rangers ;)

sully
08-15-2012, 05:58 AM
I wish the interviewer had asked him if he had played to the level people had of him in Toronto.

ryan
08-15-2012, 06:38 AM
So they were trying to buy him out after all.

Man we are bloody fooked until eternity.

Fort York Redcoat
08-15-2012, 07:00 AM
Holy. Crap. That was the most candid I've ever seen of JDG and one of the most candid interviews by a Canadian footballer. I can't believe how well he tread the line in what he said. He certainly said the right things by me. Incredible the difference in how he left vs other Canadian players.

It didn't matter how much money they threw at him he wanted to stay instead of cut out.

DeGuz just went up my list for the back of a Canada shirt.

http://5.soccer-reviews.com/wp-content/uploads/post/early-june-boot-spotting/Julian-de-Guzman-Canada.jpg

http://www.canadasoccer.com/files/is/homepage/20120612_deguzman_www.jpg

ryan
08-15-2012, 08:23 AM
Good explanation of how JDG looks like a much better footballer when he put on a Canadian shirt during his time with TFC. Hard to blame some of the guys who've come through TFC and not performed to their best ability, this behind the scenes shit really weighs on these guys....his face says it all.

gate7
08-15-2012, 08:25 AM
WOW.. I'm impressed.....

Sadly its a similar story we've heard too many times before.. I sometimes wonder if the FO has is any PRIDE in this organisation.

Canary10
08-15-2012, 08:30 AM
Funny...I've said many times TFC is worse after the transfer window, and part of that assessment is that we traded JDG with nothing of quality to replace him. Dunfield is certainly no JDG. And I got ripped apart for it.

But now people like him because he tells is like it is about the TFC FO?

Fort York Redcoat
08-15-2012, 08:39 AM
Funny...I've said many times TFC is worse after the transfer window, and part of that assessment is that we traded JDG with nothing of quality to replace him. Dunfield is certainly no JDG. And I got ripped apart for it.

But now people like him because he tells is like it is about the TFC FO?


I can easily separate my appreciation for his demeanor and candour with the disappointment I have for his contribution and overall value to the club. The 2 opinions can co-exist in a supporter IMO.

Ultra & Proud
08-15-2012, 08:43 AM
I always liked JDG. Just became obvious that his contract was a bit steep for what he had to offer.

sdcfan18
08-15-2012, 08:48 AM
Funny...I've said many times TFC is worse after the transfer window, and part of that assessment is that we traded JDG with nothing of quality to replace him. Dunfield is certainly no JDG. And I got ripped apart for it.

But now people like him because he tells is like it is about the TFC FO?

It seems to me that people in TO always need some person to blame for the results and claim they are the problem and need to move on. Jose Calderon, De Guz, and countless Leafs like McCabe, Komisarek, and Toskala (to name a few off the top of my head). I don't think that people were saying your assessment was wrong, as much as they were glad to be done with JDG. Personally, I liked his play and thought he just made a few glaring mistakes. Had we been getting bounces and won some of your first few games, maybe we would still be here?

Pookie
08-15-2012, 08:55 AM
I don't feel the focus should be on the player he was. What he just said is very important and should be the focus.

For example:

"lacking in planniing... they need everyone on the same page" - fundamental issue no matter the debate on Mariner. When the boat rows in opposite directions, you go no where.

"they got my DP slot back and used it on Hassli to replace Koevermans" - sort of ends the debate over why Mellberg couldn't fit doesn't it? Mariner opted to replace goals and give up a draft pick rather than fix the CB issue.

brad
08-15-2012, 09:04 AM
I'm inclined to believe what he is saying, and it sort of makes sense based on what we speculate about the club. But it is fair to point out that everything he is saying is coming from a "disgruntled ex-employee" perspective. People that are made to feel unwanted and eventually moved out rarely have positive things to say about their former employer.

Out of curiosity - how has he been doing for Dallas? Has his performances improved?

Beach_Red
08-15-2012, 09:04 AM
I don't feel the focus should be on the player he was. What he just said is very important and should be the focus.

For example:

"lacking in planniing... they need everyone on the same page" - fundamental issue no matter the debate on Mariner. When the boat rows in opposite directions, you go no where.

"they got my DP slot back and used it on Hassli to replace Koevermans" - sort of ends the debate over why Mellberg couldn't fit doesn't it? Mariner opted to replace goals and give up a draft pick rather than fix the CB issue.

Well, someone opted to replace goals but as you said, the fundamental issue is that the boat is rowing in opposite directions. Do we think that has been entirely fixed with one coach firing? Can we take anything mangement says while under contract at face value? It seems possible that a condition of working at MLSE is taking the hits publicly and keeping your mouth shut about upper management.

[NBF]
08-15-2012, 09:07 AM
It seems to me that people in TO always need some person to blame for the results and claim they are the problem and need to move on. Jose Calderon, De Guz, and countless Leafs like McCabe, Komisarek, and Toskala (to name a few off the top of my head). I don't think that people were saying your assessment was wrong, as much as they were glad to be done with JDG. Personally, I liked his play and thought he just made a few glaring mistakes. Had we been getting bounces and won some of your first few games, maybe we would still be here?

The team really needs new ownership and guidance. There's been some good talent come and gone, but they seem to fail to know which position needs to be an average MLS salary and which position requires a DP salary. Im disappointed to hear JDG say that every single coach/manager he had wanted to move him out. This pretty much implies that not even Winter could find a place for him in the 4-3-3, but for some reason he seems to fit just fine in the CMNT.

[NBF]
08-15-2012, 09:13 AM
I don't feel the focus should be on the player he was. What he just said is very important and should be the focus.

For example:

"lacking in planniing... they need everyone on the same page" - fundamental issue no matter the debate on Mariner. When the boat rows in opposite directions, you go no where.

"they got my DP slot back and used it on Hassli to replace Koevermans" - sort of ends the debate over why Mellberg couldn't fit doesn't it? Mariner opted to replace goals and give up a draft pick rather than fix the CB issue.

When you put it like that it sounds like they could have signed Mellberg on a DP contract and possibly O'Dea, and that would have given us a solid backline, with Morgan, O'Dea, Mellberg, Eckersley. Instead they traded a first round pick and failed to secure the services of an experienced defender to fortify the backline. There's not a whole lot of planning for the future in that decision.

Canary10
08-15-2012, 09:18 AM
I can easily separate my appreciation for his demeanor and candour with the disappointment I have for his contribution and overall value to the club. The 2 opinions can co-exist in a supporter IMO.

Yeah, I can see that.

Suds
08-15-2012, 09:19 AM
I'm inclined to believe what he is saying, and it sort of makes sense based on what we speculate about the club. But it is fair to point out that everything he is saying is coming from a "disgruntled ex-employee" perspective. People that are made to feel unwanted and eventually moved out rarely have positive things to say about their former employer.

Out of curiosity - how has he been doing for Dallas? Has his performances improved?

I agree that one needs to be somewhat open about comments from a former employee. However, this is not the first or second time players or coaches that have left TFC have either aired issues or hinted at issues. As they say - once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, third time is a trend. We clearly have a negative trend happening here with respect to creating a vision for the club and having the knowledge to implement it. TFC is all over the map and it has shown in their results for the past 6 years.

Canary10
08-15-2012, 09:24 AM
I agree that one needs to be somewhat open about comments from a former employee. However, this is not the first or second time players or coaches that have left TFC have either aired issues or hinted at issues. As they say - once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, third time is a trend. We clearly have a negative trend happening here with respect to creating a vision for the club and having the knowledge to implement it. TFC is all over the map and it has shown in their results for the past 6 years.

Regarding the vision. I saw this quote from the Guardian's assessment of Swansea's chances for the EPL season this year. I put it in the possession vs. route 1 thread, but it fits here given JDG's comments. It's a good one.

"The clarity of Swansea's vision has made replacing managers and players relatively seamless."

When you know how you want to play, you know exactly the kinds of players you need in each position, and exactly the kind of manager you need. TFC's lack of consistent vision is a big problem.

Suds
08-15-2012, 09:28 AM
Regarding the vision. I saw this quote from the Guardian's assessment of Swansea's chances for the EPL season this year. I put it in the possession vs. route 1 thread, but it fits here given JDG's comments. It's a good one.

"The clarity of Swansea's vision has made replacing managers and players relatively seamless."

When you know how you want to play, you know exactly the kinds of players you need in each position, and exactly the kind of manager you need. TFC's lack of consistent vision is a big problem.

Wow! That Swansea statement cannot be any more succinct

Fort York Redcoat
08-15-2012, 09:29 AM
Yeah, I can see that.

You sound a bit hard done by but it wasn't myself saying he had to go no matter what. He himself said the sale was to get Hassli which was a poor trade so far since he hasn't been fit but I think the final month and a half of games will have to tell the tale on that story.

I think we'll look back and rating the players in similar positions (Robinson, then Cronin) on the team he'll have a moderate rating but it's all about overall value. We should've had better use of our DP spots the years up to Koevs and Frings.

Super
08-15-2012, 09:29 AM
I wish JDG all the best, to be honest I always felt that we wasted a DP slot on the guy - and way too much salary. And yes, I do care that he got paid almost $2 million. MLSE is not going to spend unlimited on our team, so with him on the squad that was $2 million less that they were willing to fork out for someone else.

Technorgasm
08-15-2012, 09:33 AM
I always liked JDG. Just became obvious that his contract was a bit steep for what he had to offer.

This is the perfet response to this thread.
pragmatic, simple and honest.
We are all so emotionally inveted in thsi squad that sometimes we lose sight of what is actually going on.

He wasn't a fit, we over paid, adn the ROI for JDG was non existent . . ESPECIALLY for a DP.
love him for canada, glad he is gone from TFC.

Beach_Red
08-15-2012, 09:38 AM
Wow! That Swansea statement cannot be any more succinct

And we're now seeing MLS teams start to settle into that kind of operation now that the league (and its roster rules) seem to be stabalizing. If the roster rules stay much the same through another CBA (same number of DPs, same domestic requirements, etc.) it will be possible for MLS teams to make these kind of long-term plans.

Now, whether TFC will be at the forefront of teams doing that or pulling up the rear will have a lot to do with the new ownership.

Whoop
08-15-2012, 10:33 AM
Just saw this.

When will TFC do something like this?

http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~2885487,00.html

Not necessarily a European based guy but actually announce who is in charge of scouting in various parts of the world.

bertal
08-15-2012, 10:54 AM
sad stuff.

T-boy
08-15-2012, 11:00 AM
I wonder how many players say nice things about the ex club that essentially just fired them?! :p

Whoop
08-15-2012, 11:15 AM
Most don't rip the club.

Like Suds said earlier. Once, twice you figure angry players. But it's happened way too many times for it to be the players.

How many MLS clubs get ripped the way TFC does by ex-players?

It's a sign of how poorly the club is run.

SilverSamurai
08-15-2012, 11:20 AM
Wow. But is anyone really surprised?

ag futbol
08-15-2012, 11:30 AM
Most don't rip the club.

Like Suds said earlier. Once, twice you figure angry players. But it's happened way too many times for it to be the players.

How many MLS clubs get ripped the way TFC does by ex-players?

It's a sign of how poorly the club is run.
Agreed, it seems TFC get ripped more often than not. Given that these guys know they are burning some bridges by speaking out, what happens here must really get under their skin as much as it does ours. I wonder if that "pulling different directions" thing really ended with Mariner and Winter? This is basically what happens when you slap a bunch of staff together without a comprehensive idea. Scary thought: we're basically operating with Mo Johnston's management team minus Mo Johnston and plus Paul Mariner.

Far as the whole saga goes, obviously that contract was a mistake from the minute the ink was dry on it. Anyone who actually knew JDG's game (and didn't just watch one gold cup highlight reel) should have known he was a holding mid who offered very little consistent attacking output. That being said, his output here I think was below what he was capable of. Maybe injuries slowed him down a bit but I also think his coaches never really understood how to use him. How else do you explain that he performs elsewhere but not here? Reoccurring theme if there ever was one.

Huyton
08-15-2012, 11:48 AM
Seems a bit harsh to say that TFC traded JDG to get Hassli.

I suspect that JDG was traded so they could get Mellberg.

However, Koevermans got injured a few days after the trade, and his goals had to be replaced. In comes Hassli, and then the acquisition of Mellberg fell apart.

So, yes, in effect JDG was traded and we ended up with Hassli, but I don't think that was the plan.

I liked JDG, and the games that he played when he was playing well, he was a joy to watch. He did, however, seem to play at the level of the opposition. The better the opponents, the better he played. Unfortunately, the converse was also true.

For the money he was paid, I expected him to be able to stamp his authority on the game and make the opposition dance to his tune.

Pookie
08-15-2012, 11:57 AM
I don't think anyone is saying he was traded to get Hassli.

The comment he made was that they used his DP slot to get Hassli. There was a lot of commentary going on about why Mellberg couldn't fit in our structure and whether the league nixed it. The non-conspiracy theory was that they simply didn't have a free DP slot (Frings, Hassli and Koevermans (though injured still counts).

JDG's interpretation supports the non-conspiracy theory and timeline. The club opted to replace Koevermans with Hassli. Once they did that, Mellberg, whom they were in negotiations with, couldn't fit as Hassli took the last spot.

We can debate whether they made a conscious choice to pick Hassli over Mellberg or whether they mis-understood MLS contract laws and felt they could do both.

However, the point is becoming very clear that Mellberg was nixed for the simple reason that we already have 3 DPs under contract. JDGs comments support this 100%

Beach_Red
08-15-2012, 12:27 PM
I don't think anyone is saying he was traded to get Hassli.

The comment he made was that they used his DP slot to get Hassli. There was a lot of commentary going on about why Mellberg couldn't fit in our structure and whether the league nixed it. The non-conspiracy theory was that they simply didn't have a free DP slot (Frings, Hassli and Koevermans (though injured still counts).

JDG's interpretation supports the non-conspiracy theory and timeline. The club opted to replace Koevermans with Hassli. Once they did that, Mellberg, whom they were in negotiations with, couldn't fit as Hassli took the last spot.

We can debate whether they made a conscious choice to pick Hassli over Mellberg or whether they mis-understood MLS contract laws and felt they could do both.

However, the point is becoming very clear that Mellberg was nixed for the simple reason that we already have 3 DPs under contract. JDGs comments support this 100%

But Mellburg wasn't a done deal, they were still negotiating, weren't they? How many times has TFC (or MLS in general) been used by a player's agent as a bargaining chip? Maybe TFC went for the player they knew they could get. We really don't know what the Mellburg negotiations were like at that point, do we?

ryan
08-15-2012, 12:32 PM
But Mellburg wasn't a done deal, they were still negotiating, weren't they? How many times has TFC (or MLS in general) been used by a player's agent as a bargaining chip? Maybe TFC went for the player they knew they could get. We really don't know what the Mellburg negotiations were like at that point, do we?

Regardless, the Mellburg negotiations were completed yet denied...but who, nobody really knows for sure.

Richard
08-15-2012, 12:59 PM
Im telling you one of these days someone has to come out with a tell all book on MLSE. I riped him as a player because of his salary but i think its obvious Tfc mishandled him, all the best too him in the future.

I just wish the lid could be blown off this shitty organization so heads would roll already. I hope the new owners cam see throught the bullshit.

Huyton
08-15-2012, 01:27 PM
This was a guy who didn't work that well under Chris Cummins, Nick Dasovic, Preki, Winter or Mariner.

If it was so blindingly obvious to the fans that JDG was not worth a DP slot, it was certainly so for the coaching staff.

JDG makes it quite plain that there were a number of attempts to trade him or buy him out, and he refused each time.

It seems it was a minor miracle that Mariner was able to get rid of him, allowing TFC to sign Mellberg.

And then the turf in Foxboro screwed up everything.

Canary10
08-15-2012, 01:31 PM
JDG is regularly amongst the best players on the pitch for Canada. Someone should ask Stephen Hart what he does.

Ageroo
08-15-2012, 01:47 PM
JDG is regularly amongst the best players on the pitch for Canada. Someone should ask Stephen Hart what he does.

Next TFC manager...Stephen Hart.... ;)

ag futbol
08-15-2012, 01:55 PM
JDG is regularly amongst the best players on the pitch for Canada. Someone should ask Stephen Hart what he does.
I think if there's one thing to learn from Steven Hart, it's that you can go a long way from keeping a good relationship with your players and their clubs. All those issues we had floating around previously have basically been minimized.

Tactically I'm not sure what he's doing. He sticks to that 4-2-3-1 formation pretty rigidly, sometimes for the worse. JDG is basically darts all over the place connecting short passes and then delivers the occasional killer ball. Usually he plays next to a pretty strong box-to-box guy like Hutchinson and then is complemented by the amount of speed we have out wide with guys like Simpson, Jackson, and Rickets.

Not that this is all on TFC (because JDG certainly needs some work) but the team never really found a group of players that could work around JDG well enough to make him look good. Our wide players were either technical or fast, but rarely both. Plata being a rare exception. His midfield partners never really balanced out his lack of mobility either. You put Frings or Dunfield next JDG, sure you have more of a ball winner but all three of them are pretty slow. This is still a problem with our midfield today, they just don't cover the space fast enough and plug the holes.

ensco
08-15-2012, 02:01 PM
I don't care if JDG is right, I am incredibly disappointed in the guy. This is what is known in the investment business as the "bad company problem": someone you don't respect has the same opinion you do!

He got paid $5MM and wouldn't tackle.

He is not a guy who has any kind of gripe about minutes or opportunity.

He should be ashamed.

jabbronies
08-15-2012, 02:01 PM
He doesn't sound like sour grapes to me. I actually thought it was one of the best articulations of the problems this club has coming from an ex-player. It's not the usual BS other guys have talked about.

ManUtd4ever
08-15-2012, 02:19 PM
JDG's comments regarding the state of the organization are valid to an extent, but as far as his role with TFC is concerned, he shouldn't be the least bit surprised that Mariner moved him when the first feasible opportunity presented itself.

spark
08-15-2012, 02:27 PM
JDG is regularly amongst the best players on the pitch for Canada. Someone should ask Stephen Hart what he does.

Hart believes in JDG 100% and lets him know it.

ForeverTFC
08-15-2012, 03:33 PM
"The clarity of Swansea's vision has made replacing managers and players relatively seamless."


Great quote.

This is exactly what I said at the time of Winter's firing. You want to fire the coach, fine, but to ditch a vision you set out only a year and half ago - one which you paid millions for - is not only moronic, it also sheds light on the incompetence running amok.

Blizzard
08-15-2012, 04:50 PM
He's looked pretty good whenever I've seen him. Two assists last game.

Redcoe15
08-15-2012, 05:05 PM
No fucking surprised that another ex TFC player has come out and ripped management for its incompetence. And the sad thing is all these ex players go on to have better MLS careers than when they stayed here.

The people operating this clown car need to be axed ASAP. But it problably won't happen. In fact, if Anselmi does get his greasy paws on the presidency in this new ownership and is replaced by Cochrane, then this oufit will continue to go down the shitter.

Fort York Redcoat
08-16-2012, 08:09 AM
I'm not sure he was saying incompetent as much as they disagree. Not many here were arguing with a decision to move DeGuz after his second year here showed we weren't going to get our value. He didn't want to move and it sounds like they tried everything they could to move him.

Pookie
08-16-2012, 09:31 AM
This was a guy who didn't work that well under Chris Cummins, Nick Dasovic, Preki, Winter or Mariner.

If it was so blindingly obvious to the fans that JDG was not worth a DP slot, it was certainly so for the coaching staff.

JDG makes it quite plain that there were a number of attempts to trade him or buy him out, and he refused each time.

It seems it was a minor miracle that Mariner was able to get rid of him, allowing TFC to sign Mellberg.

And then the turf in Foxboro screwed up everything.

agreed with everything though your conclusion on the turf being behind the decision to pass on Mellberg leaves a little to be desired.

The manager opted to replace Koevermans goal production with about 14 games remaining in the (meaningless) season and a very uphill CCL battle. He gave up a first round pick to do it and did it knowing that generally speaking, his back line is pressed more than most MLS teams given the lack of possession his system results in.

As Beach Red pointed out, signing Mellberg at the time was no guarantee. However, all sources have now confirmed that it was a deal that could have been made. The rush to acquire Hassli wasn't immediate but Mariner, perhaps with guidance from Cochrane, treated it as such.

As a result, we have Hassli and still sit last in the league without a "boss" on the back line. If anyone believes that not making Mellberg a Red was a mistake, that isn't the fault of New England's turf, that is completely a managerial decision.

Ultra & Proud
08-16-2012, 10:08 AM
e without a "boss" on the back line.

I choose to wait until I see O'Dea actually take the field for us before I make that call.

A few years back when we had Cann and Attakora at the back, we seemed fairly solid (for about 75 minutes a match anyways) and Cann was seen as 'the boss' and Attakora was the young CB hustling for tackles. Now if we are using O' Dea and Eckersley back there for example, I would have to say (on paper at least):

O' Dea & Eck > Cann & Attakora

Fort York Redcoat
08-16-2012, 10:19 AM
I choose to wait until I see O'Dea actually take the field for us before I make that call.

A few years back when we had Cann and Attakora at the back, we seemed fairly solid (for about 75 minutes a match anyways) and Cann was seen as 'the boss' and Attakora was the young CB hustling for tackles. Now if we are using O' Dea and Eckersley back there for example, I would have to say (on paper at least):

O' Dea & Eck > Cann & Attakora


I won't argue the former over the latter combo but aren't they all most comfy in different positions? Cann and Nana were Preki's centre's and while Eckers and O'Dea may play there in the future, do they both not prefer the right? Just checking.

Huyton
08-16-2012, 10:49 AM
agreed with everything though your conclusion on the turf being behind the decision to pass on Mellberg leaves a little to be desired.

The manager opted to replace Koevermans goal production with about 14 games remaining in the (meaningless) season and a very uphill CCL battle. He gave up a first round pick to do it and did it knowing that generally speaking, his back line is pressed more than most MLS teams given the lack of possession his system results in.

As Beach Red pointed out, signing Mellberg at the time was no guarantee. However, all sources have now confirmed that it was a deal that could have been made. The rush to acquire Hassli wasn't immediate but Mariner, perhaps with guidance from Cochrane, treated it as such.

As a result, we have Hassli and still sit last in the league without a "boss" on the back line. If anyone believes that not making Mellberg a Red was a mistake, that isn't the fault of New England's turf, that is completely a managerial decision.

Our future Boss was on international duty last night, along with all sorts of other players that would normally be thought of as "starters".

I blame the turf in Foxboro for the injury to Koevermans. Without that, I think Mellberg would be here.

As for the managerial decision, I think that it's more difficult to find a non-DP centre back who is decent, as opposed to a non-DP striker who can score the occasional goal.

Beach_Red
08-16-2012, 11:05 AM
agreed with everything though your conclusion on the turf being behind the decision to pass on Mellberg leaves a little to be desired.

The manager opted to replace Koevermans goal production with about 14 games remaining in the (meaningless) season and a very uphill CCL battle. He gave up a first round pick to do it and did it knowing that generally speaking, his back line is pressed more than most MLS teams given the lack of possession his system results in.

As Beach Red pointed out, signing Mellberg at the time was no guarantee. However, all sources have now confirmed that it was a deal that could have been made. The rush to acquire Hassli wasn't immediate but Mariner, perhaps with guidance from Cochrane, treated it as such.

As a result, we have Hassli and still sit last in the league without a "boss" on the back line. If anyone believes that not making Mellberg a Red was a mistake, that isn't the fault of New England's turf, that is completely a managerial decision.

Perhaps with guidance from more than Cochrane. Mellburg's contract was done as far as Mariner was concerned, but isn't it possible that the part of his contract that isn't paid by MLS (the part that makes it a DP contract) still needed board approval from MLSE (it's all rumour and speculation but there has been talk that the board has scuttled past attempts at DP signings).

We're really in the dark here as to how our team operates and who makes what decisions and what hoops they have to jump through. It's likely that the situation JDG describes with everyone at TFC not on the same page is actually by design - it keeps any one member of the management team from getting too powerful and becoming a team president which woukd undermine someone else (as happened with the hockey and basketball operations....).

I'm really hoping that this Medici-like running of the organization changes with the new ownership.

ag futbol
08-16-2012, 12:26 PM
O' Dea & Eck > Cann & Attakora
Oh absolutely!

I don't think it's even close, regardless of how O'Dea is! Preki's system was very favorable to the guys playing CB, they had a lot of backup and support. That being said, no grad predictions about how effective the new pairing will be overall.

wzhxvy
08-16-2012, 04:56 PM
I am not sure what everyone is hearing from this interview. Yes they tried to buy him out but he refused to take one cent less than what his contract stated and he wanted to cash in the full amount. This was not some heroic effort on his part, this is all about the money. They overpaid him and he wanted to collect. TFC were finally able to get rid of him, and he doesn't like or appreciate the inconvenience of being traded now with 3 to 4 months on his contract. We all know the FO is messed up. No question in my mind. But he also did not step up as a leader on the field and was average most of the time, not to mention some lack luster efforts, missing curfew at least once, and some questionable injuries.

One other thing, lets not forget about the news from his agent saying he was approaching club about extension days before he was traded. If he was so miserable then why did he do that ? Its all about the money for JDG wrt TFC.

jloome
08-16-2012, 08:00 PM
the point is becoming very clear that Mellberg was nixed...

Nonsense. You believe that, you've always believed it, you've stated it ad nauseum. But there's nothing here except inference and I disagree with your perception of waht DeGuzman is trying to say. I highly doubt Julian has a clue what was going on behind the scenes.

jloome
08-16-2012, 08:03 PM
I don't care if JDG is right, I am incredibly disappointed in the guy. This is what is known in the investment business as the "bad company problem": someone you don't respect has the same opinion you do!

He got paid $5MM and wouldn't tackle.

He is not a guy who has any kind of gripe about minutes or opportunity.

He should be ashamed.

The point here about other players making him look better is certainly valid. In his first game in Dallas, with an older and more experienced team around him, he completed 38 of 42 passes and dominated the midfield.

jloome
08-16-2012, 08:05 PM
I am not sure what everyone is hearing from this interview. Yes they tried to buy him out but he refused to take one cent less than what his contract stated and he wanted to cash in the full amount. This was not some heroic effort on his part, this is all about the money. They overpaid him and he wanted to collect. TFC were finally able to get rid of him, and he doesn't like or appreciate the inconvenience of being traded now with 3 to 4 months on his contract. We all know the FO is messed up. No question in my mind. But he also did not step up as a leader on the field and was average most of the time, not to mention some lack luster efforts, missing curfew at least once, and some questionable injuries.

One other thing, lets not forget about the news from his agent saying he was approaching club about extension days before he was traded. If he was so miserable then why did he do that ? Its all about the money for JDG wrt TFC.

I tend to agree. He's never been a leader.

ag futbol
08-16-2012, 09:05 PM
The point here about other players making him look better is certainly valid. In his first game in Dallas, with an older and more experienced team around him, he completed 38 of 42 passes and dominated the midfield.
Seems like when it rains it pours. I was looking at the stats from one of their other games and JDG was in the high 40's for # of passes completed and so were a number of other players on the team.

Crazy comparison: look at the passing percentage / frequency of our backline and compare it to Dallas' backline in their last game... hell compare it to Portland's... I know "possession is what you make of it" and all that jazz, but jesus we look futile.

FluSH
08-16-2012, 09:38 PM
Sad really... With DeRo and JDG... We truly know how to treat our hometown players.

jloome
08-16-2012, 10:49 PM
Seems like when it rains it pours. I was looking at the stats from one of their other games and JDG was in the high 40's for # of passes completed and so were a number of other players on the team.

Crazy comparison: look at the passing percentage / frequency of our backline and compare it to Dallas' backline in their last game... hell compare it to Portland's... I know "possession is what you make of it" and all that jazz, but jesus we look futile.

This was true under both coaches. Our movement throught he core of our midfield and defense is so slow, it makes a quick buildup and the ability to take advantage of an opponent's space almost impossible. We generally have about half the number of total passes, because we just boot it up field constantly, with no ability to link through back and midfield.

ryan
08-17-2012, 05:43 AM
I am not sure what everyone is hearing from this interview. Yes they tried to buy him out but he refused to take one cent less than what his contract stated and he wanted to cash in the full amount. This was not some heroic effort on his part, this is all about the money. They overpaid him and he wanted to collect. TFC were finally able to get rid of him, and he doesn't like or appreciate the inconvenience of being traded now with 3 to 4 months on his contract. We all know the FO is messed up. No question in my mind. But he also did not step up as a leader on the field and was average most of the time, not to mention some lack luster efforts, missing curfew at least once, and some questionable injuries.

One other thing, lets not forget about the news from his agent saying he was approaching club about extension days before he was traded. If he was so miserable then why did he do that ? Its all about the money for JDG wrt TFC.

Yeah because it's common in sports, business, etc, for an employee to hand back salary other people don't think they deserve.
Doesn't appreciate being traded? He seems pretty happy to be out of Toronto and in Dallas.


No idea where you're coming from.

Batman
08-17-2012, 06:19 AM
One thing I noticed in the interview is that it took him almost 3.5 minutes to look the interviewer in the eye or to even just look at the camera.
It just seemed he was incredibly uncomfortable and a lot of things going on in his head.
After that point he seemed to relax more and even lighten up a bit.

I know we have a messed up FO, (Cochrane, Anselmi at least) but I think we should, and will do better with the DP spot that we got out of JDG, hometown or no hometown.

But, I have nothing against him.. it's not like he didn't try here. I wish him well in Dallas, and even moreso with the Canadian team.

Brooker
08-17-2012, 06:27 AM
Meh... Nothing too groundbreaking this interview. He didn't want to leave and he was forced out... Now he's upset. It was time to move on. His style didn't fit, his pay didn't fit, it was never going to work. Good luck to him.

wzhxvy
08-17-2012, 07:42 AM
Yeah because it's common in sports, business, etc, for an employee to hand back salary other people don't think they deserve.
Doesn't appreciate being traded? He seems pretty happy to be out of Toronto and in Dallas.


No idea where you're coming from.

Yes that is why his agent was seeking an extension with TFC one day before the trade. Good one.

ryan
08-17-2012, 08:43 AM
Yes that is why his agent was seeking an extension with TFC one day before the trade. Good one.

And he doesn't want to stay in Dallas beyond this year either, right?

OMAGHERD he'd play in either place? Who woulda thunk that's possible. But somehow this makes us all misunderstand his comments?


I mean and what is your angle? Athletes are all about the money? Duh, that applies to the large majority of them. What an asshole JDG is, playing out his agreed upon contract!! Someone should arrest that man.



Let me know when your boss offers you half your salary to walk from your full time jerb and you happily accept. kthx.

Beach_Red
08-17-2012, 08:45 AM
Yes that is why his agent was seeking an extension with TFC one day before the trade. Good one.

This makes it look like it was JDG's agent who instigated this trade, or at least got the ball rolling on something happening. It often seems like management here has to be pushed to do anything.

wzhxvy
08-17-2012, 08:51 AM
You said he is happy to be out of Toronto and to be in Dallas, when the fact is a day before he was traded, his agent was seeking an extension with Toronto. I do not know why you keep arguing. This all about the money for JDG, and he hoped he could suck more money out of TFC, despite how poor and miserable he was here.

I have no issue with him doing whatever is best for him, but it has nothing to do with loyalty, he just wanted to cash in. Now that he has been traded, he is a sour former employee.

And you might not know this, but it does happen that people accept pay cuts all the time. No one has an obligation to employ anyone. So yes it does happen and people take pay cuts. In this case, he was protected by a contract, but now the gig is up.

Now specific to JDG, he did not give his all to TFC. So while I don't begrudge anyone making money, I dont buy it after they leave and bad mouth their former employers.

v00d00daddy
08-17-2012, 08:56 AM
I'd agree that JDG was compensated way more than he should have been based on what he brought to the team. I doubt there are many that can argue that he earned all that cash.

But...

I think it's also fair to agree with JDG when he IMPLIES that the way the team was run during his time here made it much more difficult for him to succeed. Who will argue with him when he says that this team has lacked a plan and a vision. It's been like that since since day 1? We change coaches and philosophies constantly. Some players can succeed under those circumstances. Other can't.

He couldn't.

wzhxvy
08-17-2012, 08:59 AM
Voodoodaddy, agreed. I dont think we have many people left that think this is a functional FO or this club is run by competent people. It is a complete mess.

My point is strictly around the money piece, and his actions while here. And yes of course if we had better people in the FO, supporting him, he might have played better, but there is also personal accountability, leading by example and being a professional. And I am being kind by saying JDG was not consistent in these areas.

Fort York Redcoat
08-17-2012, 09:13 AM
I have no issue with him doing whatever is best for him, but it has nothing to do with loyalty, he just wanted to cash in. Now that he has been traded, he is a sour former employee.


He may be sour but he did say he's a fan of the team and wants it to succeed none the less. That's not that sour. And the money aspect has a lot to do with pride and ego of a professional as well. It may have been difficult to move after his first two lackadaisical seasons here but if it was only money he could have made as much in Scandinavia where so many Canucks have gone. He stuck it out to our detriment, unfortunatley, but it wasn't only money keeping him here.

wzhxvy
08-17-2012, 09:20 AM
He may be sour but he did say he's a fan of the team and wants it to succeed none the less. That's not that sour. And the money aspect has a lot to do with pride and ego of a professional as well. It may have been difficult to move after his first two lackadaisical seasons here but if it was only money he could have made as much in Scandinavia where so many Canucks have gone. He stuck it out to our detriment, unfortunatley, but it wasn't only money keeping him here.

I think we will find out this off season what his value is, in Europe and NA. You may be right but I am thinking he would be lucky to get half what he got from TFC.

Pookie
08-17-2012, 09:25 AM
Nonsense. You believe that, you've always believed it, you've stated it ad nauseum. But there's nothing here except inference and I disagree with your perception of waht DeGuzman is trying to say. I highly doubt Julian has a clue what was going on behind the scenes.

de Guzman said that they used his DP spot on Hassli. We can argue whether he is in the know or not. I've got to assume that as a Designated Player he is somewhat familiar with contractual but you are right, he isn't quoting from the MLS Collective Bargaining Agreement.

However, when the team only offers "No comment" as an explanation, this is what we are left with.

ag futbol
08-17-2012, 10:06 AM
One thing I noticed in the interview is that it took him almost 3.5 minutes to look the interviewer in the eye or to even just look at the camera.
It just seemed he was incredibly uncomfortable and a lot of things going on in his head.
After that point he seemed to relax more and even lighten up a bit.

Pretty standard for his interviews, he's not really the look into the camera type.

Fort York Redcoat
08-17-2012, 10:06 AM
I think we will find out this off season what his value is, in Europe and NA. You may be right but I am thinking he would be lucky to get half what he got from TFC.

Indeed. I think you're right about his value over there now but i was referring to his value after 2 seasons here. I think his stock wasn't as bad especially since he's been traded within MLS now.

He was trying ( not convincingly) to say he may stay in Dallas if it works but I don't think he cares for the league and his family isn't here = lower divisions in Europe.

Pookie
08-17-2012, 11:41 AM
I choose to wait until I see O'Dea actually take the field for us before I make that call.

A few years back when we had Cann and Attakora at the back, we seemed fairly solid (for about 75 minutes a match anyways) and Cann was seen as 'the boss' and Attakora was the young CB hustling for tackles. Now if we are using O' Dea and Eckersley back there for example, I would have to say (on paper at least):

O' Dea & Eck > Cann & Attakora

Why not Mellberg & O'Dea with Eck and Morgan/Henry out wide? That could have been one of the better backlines (on paper) than we have ever had.

O'Dea signing would not have been prevented by Mellberg

Fort York Redcoat
08-17-2012, 01:17 PM
As a result, we have Hassli and still sit last in the league without a "boss" on the back line. If anyone believes that not making Mellberg a Red was a mistake, that isn't the fault of New England's turf, that is completely a managerial decision.


I choose to wait until I see O'Dea actually take the field for us before I make that call.
O' Dea & Eck > Cann & Attakora


Why not Mellberg & O'Dea with Eck and Morgan/Henry out wide? That could have been one of the better backlines (on paper) than we have ever had.

O'Dea signing would not have been prevented by Mellberg

Pook, look again. UandP wasn't saying we are better off he's saying O'Dea may be the boss you think we don't have. I'm sure you'll be hard pressed to find anyone to say we're better off without Mellberg.

ensco
08-17-2012, 01:34 PM
The point here about other players making him look better is certainly valid. In his first game in Dallas, with an older and more experienced team around him, he completed 38 of 42 passes and dominated the midfield.

Those stats are meaningless. He is the master of the square ball and the back pass.

If he's so "dominant", why is he getting utility-player type minutes? (300 of the 720 he theoretically could have played since the trade).

His performance here was simply awful. I'm not interested in his opinion about anything.

Pookie
08-17-2012, 01:38 PM
Pook, look again. UandP wasn't saying we are better off he's saying O'Dea may be the boss you think we don't have. I'm sure you'll be hard pressed to find anyone to say we're better off without Mellberg.

Could be. I'm on just a few hours sleep and British Columbia time having got back late last night.

I guess I'm saying is that O'Dea could be the boss but with Mellberg AND O'Dea, that would be a much backline than O'Dea and Hassli :)

Fort York Redcoat
08-17-2012, 01:40 PM
Could be. I'm on just a few hours sleep and British Columbia time having got back late last night.

I guess I'm saying is that O'Dea could be the boss but with Mellberg AND O'Dea, that would be a much backline than O'Dea and Hassli :)

HAhahaha we'll never know until Mariner tries it! :lol:

Beach_Red
08-17-2012, 03:16 PM
Those stats are meaningless. He is the master of the square ball and the back pass.

If he's so "dominant", why is he getting utility-player type minutes? (300 of the 720 he theoretically could have played since the trade).

His performance here was simply awful. I'm not interested in his opinion about anything.

So, between this and the discussion in the other thread about TFC's record being so much better with Kouvermans it seems that the only important decision the team really had to make was to get the right DP.... All this talk of systems and formations and academies and everything else doesn't seem to have muc of an effect on wins and losses.

Get the DP right and you win games. Get it wrong and you don't.

ag futbol
08-17-2012, 03:32 PM
^ I think there's more to it than that, although getting the DP slots right is a big part of it. Personally, I think two is optimal as opposed to three, since it leaves you too little cap space to deal with. Other things on my list

1. value regular roster signings - Seems like we are always overpaying or underwhelmed.... I'd kill for one Bernardez, Lindpere, Felipe, etc...

2. Turning borderline professionals into contributors - designing a system where your Dan Gargan, Brian Mullen, Ante Jazic, types can contribute and not hurt your team. I'll give Mariner that, he seems to get better than average performances from players who are otherwise shit. But I still see a problem in that we do the talent valuation part so poorly, it makes everything else that much more difficult. Other teams don't have to stretch as far because they find better talent to work with.

Yohan
08-17-2012, 04:08 PM
So, between this and the discussion in the other thread about TFC's record being so much better with Kouvermans it seems that the only important decision the team really had to make was to get the right DP.... All this talk of systems and formations and academies and everything else doesn't seem to have muc of an effect on wins and losses.

Get the DP right and you win games. Get it wrong and you don't.
No, get the team chemistry and coaching right and you win games. Dose, or lack their of, are just one piece of the puzzle

Pookie
08-17-2012, 05:29 PM
So, between this and the discussion in the other thread about TFC's record being so much better with Kouvermans it seems that the only important decision the team really had to make was to get the right DP.... All this talk of systems and formations and academies and everything else doesn't seem to have muc of an effect on wins and losses.

Get the DP right and you win games. Get it wrong and you don't.

Yes and no.

I think it has an impact on team's like Toronto to help them become competitive because the rest of the roster is relatively poor (when compared with the average MLS depth). It can make them better... as better players tend to do but a better depth team can simply play around the strengths and exploit the weaknesses. It is important for Toronto because the other areas are so weak.

In terms of systems and formations and academies and player selection, it is absolutely important. SKC is coming this weekend and are having their success without any DP help.

Beach_Red
08-17-2012, 06:35 PM
Yes and no.

I think it has an impact on team's like Toronto to help them become competitive because the rest of the roster is relatively poor (when compared with the average MLS depth). It can make them better... as better players tend to do but a better depth team can simply play around the strengths and exploit the weaknesses. It is important for Toronto because the other areas are so weak.

In terms of systems and formations and academies and player selection, it is absolutely important. SKC is coming this weekend and are having their success without any DP help.

To get to the top of the table, sure. But to be a top five team? If Kouvermans had been healthy and in shape from the start of the season would this team have started 0-9? It would have changed everything.

OgtheDim
08-17-2012, 10:08 PM
When we were playing CCL, against teams that sat back and let us come on to them in order to counter attack us back, JDG was very good breaking up those counter attacks. But when we played the usual MLS pressing type teams, he didn't adjust.

I think he's off back to Europe next season.

ensco
08-18-2012, 01:06 AM
To get to the top of the table, sure. But to be a top five team? If Kouvermans had been healthy and in shape from the start of the season would this team have started 0-9? It would have changed everything.

I don't know in general if this is true, but I am coming to agree. I used to think the quality non-DP signings put you in the upper tier and the DP signings put yoy over the top. But there are clearly quite a few examples of the opposite (including us).

khso11
08-18-2012, 03:28 AM
I don't like how JDG plays 80% while in Toronto, but I do like everything he said in the video.

Shakes McQueen
08-18-2012, 05:34 AM
This is the same guy who fully endorsed the job Winter was doing while he was here, then went out there and played kinda mediocre at best most nights.

The team has been a shitshow for six years now, without even looking at the backroom politicking. That breeds anger and contempt from players, as well as an unhappy locker room. Winning solves everything, and this team hasn't done nearly enough of it. Couple that with the criticism he received here, and the embarrassment of how he finally got moved, and colour me surprised that he doesn't have nice things to say.

Which isn't at all to say that's the only factor. A lot of what he says rings true of our own observations and rumours about the three ring circus that is this club, behind the scenes. But the way these kinds of guys just absolve themselves of any serious guilt in their own performance, always makes me roll my eyes hard. Players earning a lot less have come here and played better for us than he did.

- Scott