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T-boy
08-10-2012, 12:17 PM
I'll continue the thread in here so the mods can clear up the other thread:


^ I really hate to wade into the middle of this, but are you saying that Mariner is not at fault for having acquired Andy Iro to do a job he was incapable of doing?

It's all down to what Winter was asking for. Winter clearly wanted a "left footed central defender", and he said so on several occasions. Mariner, I expect, was asked to find the BEST left footed CB that he could, that was available. Iro was clearly 1. available, and 2. a left footed centre back. So, did Mariner fail to find what he was asked to find - I would say no. He found exactly what he was asked to find. It's then up to Winter to get the player to play effectively. Winter failed to do this, not only with Iro, but with many players (including Dunfield).

If Winter had asked Mariner to find "a left footed central defender who already knows the 4-3-3 system and can play a short technical pass from the defense and play with his feet" - maybe Mariner just couldn't find that type of player! As we know, centre backs that can play technical football are VERY few and far between! And even fewer, are CB's who know the 4-3-3 system that Winter was playing and can play it. The issue with Winter, and player acquisitions, is that there are VERY few players within the MLS who can play what he was asking. His system isn't a simple 4-3-3, its a VERY complicated one. So, Mariner was very much stuck within the limitations of the MLS with the players he could acquire. This definitely isn't Mariner fault! Its not only Winter's problem, its the problem with the WHOLE of the MLS.

For Winter's system to work, TFC would have to go outside of the MLS and BUY the technically gifted players. As we know, this just isn't possible with the restrictions of the MLS. This isn't Mariner's Fault. The issue is that Mariner was being asked to do a job that is almost impossible to undertake - find players that can fit into Winter's system from a league that is full of players that are incapable of playing it. I'm fairly sure Mariner was doing the best he could with the limitations of 1. Winter and what he was looking for and 2. That TFC play in the MLS with all its rules and restrictions. This is why I don't blame Mariner at all.

If Iro was the best "available" and "left footed" centre back he could find at the time, then that's fine. In the MLS you simply can't 1. buy any player you want or 2. go beyond the rules of the league and the cap space. Winter's system needed to be outside of the MLS, where you can go and buy players, and bring in whoever you want with unlimited budget. But this IS the MLS, and it comes with a hell of a lot of restrictions.


????????

It was exactly Mariner's job to acquire players who he identified as ones who would fit into Winter's system......imo Andy Iro is a perfect example of how he failed badly at doing his job.........you can blame Anselmi for a lot of things that have gone wrong with this team but player acquisition is not one of them.......

Anselmi set up the structure of the club so that Mariner was in charge of finding players, and yet Winter was the one in charge of playing them. That is a massive lack of cohesion within the structure of the club. I find it hardly ever works in a football club. The coach should be the one who is finding the players he needs, not another guy.

Oldtimer
08-10-2012, 12:22 PM
Here's my post originally from the player movement thread:


We need to look at the player acquisitions when Winter was here and ask "would some of those players have played BETTER under Mariner than they did with Winter?".

Take for example Andy Iro.

Wrong. We need to look at Mariner's player acquisitions compared with a playoff team's acquisitions. Who is LA's Andy Iro? Does NY have an equivalent? *** crickets ***

Stop comparing Mariner to Winter. Compare his acquisitions to better team's acquisitions.

For example, Mariner picked up Léandre Griffit to play on the wing from the Krew. Sporting KC picked up Bobby Convey to play on the wing from San Jose. Is Griffit equivalent to Bobby Convey? Not even close.

It's even worse when you look at defenders. Would Eddy Viator have a chance with any other MLS squad? Jeremy Hall? Logan Emory? How about the disaster who was Caicedo (who was supposed to solve our defensive woes)?

Look at the players he gave away, almost for nothing:

Nick LaBrocca
Dwayne De Rosario
Nana Attackora
Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
JDG

It has nothing to do with whether his players would do better under him than Winter. Judge him by a winning team, not a losing team. Would his players stand a chance in a winning MLS squad? Would they even get in? IF they got in, would be be for bench strength? How was the value that he got for his trades? Where is the DeRo equivalent that we got? Maicon Santos equivalent? You see, he massively failed in that department. When Winter was let go, Mariner should have been shown the door as well.

Oldtimer
08-10-2012, 12:32 PM
For Winter's system to work, TFC would have to go outside of the MLS and BUY the technically gifted players. As we know, this just isn't possible with the restrictions of the MLS. This isn't Mariner's Fault.

It's time to get over Winter. What is Mariner's fault is how his acquisitions line up with other MLS clubs. It's time to drop the love affair with the Andy Iro's of this world. They just aren't good enough.

__wowza
08-10-2012, 12:39 PM
That was the problem under Mo, he would pick random players from various places.... some of them looked good on paper, some were actually good, but they didn't combine well. That hasn't changed in the 2 years under Mariner


This seems the key point and it really seems to look like an organization with no scouting - they rely on player agents and sign whoever is willing to accept their contract offers. And yes, it certainly doesn't look like it's changed very much over the years.


ported over from the other movement thread

T-boy
08-10-2012, 12:41 PM
Wrong. We need to look at Mariner's player acquisitions compared with a playoff team's acquisitions. Who is LA's Andy Iro? Does NY have an equivalent? *** crickets ***


Lots of other teams have their "Andy Iro". Some of which TFC have given away as they were poor here - Dan Gargan is a good example!.


Stop comparing Mariner to Winter. Compare his acquisitions to better team's acquisitions.

But you do HAVE to compare Mariner with Winter. You have to compare them as Mariner has got a lot more out of the SAME set of players than Winter did. It's not like there have been massive personnel change - Mariner simply has got players to play better than Winter could.


For example, Mariner picked up Léandre Griffit to play on the wing from the Krew. Sporting KC picked up Bobby Convey to play on the wing from San Jose. Is Griffit equivalent to Bobby Convey? Not even close.
It's even worse when you look at defenders. Would Eddy Viator have a chance with any other MLS squad? Jeremy Hall? Logan Emory? How about the disaster who was Caicedo (who was supposed to solve our defensive woes)?

Personally I don't believe for a second that Mariner was "randomly acquiring players" without knowledge or direction from Winter. Winter was clearly asking Mariner to look for certain players with certain strenths or positions. It's interesting you mention Emory and Hall - two players who I think are good pickups actually!


Look at the players he gave away, almost for nothing:

Nick LaBrocca
Dwayne De Rosario
Nana Attackora
Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
JDG


Again, you are oversimplifying things by far. Do you really think that Mariner was getting rid of players "willy nilly"? You honestly think Winter had absolutely no knowledge of the players leaving? Isn't it far more likely that Winter was telling Mariner to get rid of players that he didn't want? Mariner was following instructions from the head coach.

In any sport, and in any team in the world, the buck stops at the head coach. Winter was the decision maker, NOT Mariner. Winter had to go.

Judging the players that we have at TFC by the way they are playing for Mariner himself is what we need to be going. And, TFC have been playing much better lately. The same set of players that Winter couldn't get to play, are playing well for Mariner. THAT is more telling than any "record" that Mariner had of acquiring players while Winter was in charge. Mariner's record of 4-4-4 is a hell of a lot better than Winters 1-9 with exactly the same players! If you want to judge Mariner's player acquisitions, judge them how they are playing with him as manager, not how they WERE playing with the last one.

Canary10
08-10-2012, 12:45 PM
Lots of other teams have their "Andy Iro". Some of which TFC have given away as they were poor here - Dan Gargan is a good example!.



But you do HAVE to compare Mariner with Winter. You have to compare them as Mariner has got a lot more out of the SAME set of players than Winter did. It's not like there have been massive personnel change - Mariner simply has got players to play better than Winter could.



Personally I don't believe for a second that Mariner was "randomly acquiring players" without knowledge or direction from Winter. Winter was clearly asking Mariner to look for certain players with certain strenths or positions. It's interesting you mention Emory and Hall - two players who I think are good pickups actually!



Again, you are oversimplifying things by far. Do you really think that Mariner was getting rid of players "willy nilly"? You honestly think Winter had absolutely no knowledge of the players leaving? Isn't it far more likely that Winter was telling Mariner to get rid of players that he didn't want? Mariner was following instructions from the head coach.

In any sport, and in any team in the world, the buck stops at the head coach. Winter was the decision maker, NOT Mariner. Winter had to go.

Judging the players that we have at TFC by the way they are playing for Mariner himself is what we need to be going. And, TFC have been playing much better lately. The same set of players that Winter couldn't get to play, are playing well for Mariner. THAT is more telling than any "record" that Mariner had of acquiring players while Winter was in charge. Mariner's record of 4-4-4 is a hell of a lot better than Winters 1-9 with exactly the same players! If you want to judge Mariner's player acquisitions, judge them how they are playing with him as manager, not how they WERE playing with the last one.

T-Boy, where (if anywhere) from your point of view are the weaknesses in team right now?

T-boy
08-10-2012, 12:47 PM
It's time to get over Winter. What is Mariner's fault is how his acquisitions line up with other MLS clubs. It's time to drop the love affair with the Andy Iro's of this world. They just aren't good enough.

You can't have this arguement without mentioning Winter. Mariner's acquisitions have all been perfectly fine IMO. The head coach while he was making the acquisitions was the issue, not the acquisitions themselves. You could have a team of Messi's in every position, but if your head coach is a dull, emotionless, clueless, un-motivational, un-moveable, under qualified coach, you are still going to be a horrible football team!

Oldtimer
08-10-2012, 12:47 PM
You can easily tell which players were Winter players: Koevs and Soolsma.
Frings came from Klinnsmann.

The players that lack technical skill are the ones Mariner picked up.

Winter himself said that he didn't find players. he asked for players, then picked from what Mariner got him. If he got him 10 Andy Iro's, Winter picked one of them.

The real question is, why were there no Bobby Conveys in the mix? I'm sure he was just as available to Mariner as he was to KC.

Canary10
08-10-2012, 12:48 PM
You can't have this arguement without mentioning Winter. Mariner's acquisitions have all been perfectly fine IMO. The head coach while he was making the acquisitions was the issue, not the acquisitions themselves. You could have a team of Messi's in every position, but if your head coach is a dull, emotionless, clueless, un-motivational, un-moveable, under qualified coach, you are still going to be a horrible football team!

Same if your head coach is George Costanza.

Oldtimer
08-10-2012, 12:49 PM
You can't have this arguement without mentioning Winter. Mariner's acquisitions have all been perfectly fine IMO. The head coach while he was making the acquisitions was the issue, not the acquisitions themselves. You could have a team of Messi's in every position, but if your head coach is a dull, emotionless, clueless, un-motivational, un-moveable, under qualified coach, you are still going to be a horrible football team!

You keep bringing in Winter because that's the only way Mariner looks good. How does he compare to Bruce Arena? Frank Yallop? Sigi Schmidt?

There is a reason you aren't mentioning any of those guys.

Or to put it another way, would you rather have any of those three or Mariner? I know what my answer would be.

Red CB Toronto
08-10-2012, 12:54 PM
All I know is Andy Iro, Leandre Griffitt and any other player that has suited up for the Reds during their first six years has been kind enough to sign my photos for my all-time TFC collection, which is over 120 players.

T-boy
08-10-2012, 12:54 PM
T-Boy, where (if anywhere) from your point of view are the weaknesses in team right now?

Nice question.

Weaknesses:

Ryan Johnson isn't a very good player IMO. His off the ball movement is poor, and he gets far too frustrated with himself and destracted from the game. He spends way too much time watching replays on the big screen and not enough time playing the game and concentrating. He isn't consistent enough and his finishing, as we all know, is poor. I'd much prefer Koev's/Hassli and another (I would give Silva a chance as second striker). Johnson is no more than a bench player IMO.

Until thid last week I'd also add in CB - but we need to see how O'Dea plays, and I can't judge that right now. I'd prefer to see Ecks play at FB, where he is more effective.

I'd also personally like to see the two wide midfielders play WIDER than Mariner has them playing. Lambe needs to sit more on the touchline than he does. He gets crowded out too often playing inside. But the midfielders we have, I would say are pretty good. Frings and Dunfield play well together, and a mix of Lambe, Silva, or Avila is a good midfield.

I'd replace Johnson in a heartbeat, though!

Canary10
08-10-2012, 12:57 PM
Nice question.

Weaknesses:

Ryan Johnson isn't a very good player IMO. His off the ball movement is poor, and he gets far too frustrated with himself and destracted from the game. He spends way too much time watching replays on the big screen and not enough time playing the game and concentrating. He isn't consistent enough and his finishing, as we all know, is poor. I'd much prefer Koev's/Hassli and another (I would give Silva a chance as second striker). Johnson is no more than a bench player IMO.

Until thid last week I'd also add in CB - but we need to see how O'Dea plays, and I can't judge that right now. I'd prefer to see Ecks play at FB, where he is more effective.

I'd also personally like to see the two wide midfielders play WIDER than Mariner has them playing. Lambe needs to sit more on the touchline than he does. He gets crowded out too often playing inside. But the midfielders we have, I would say are pretty good. Frings and Dunfield play well together, and a mix of Lambe, Silva, or Avila is a good midfield.

I'd replace Johnson in a heartbeat, though!

We did get Amarikwa. His running fast in a straight line is the perfect complement to Johnson's running madly in every direction.

Phil
08-10-2012, 01:00 PM
All I know is Andy Iro, Leandre Griffitt and any other player that has suited up for the Reds during their first six years has been kind enough to sign my photos for my all-time TFC collection, which is over 120 players.

That number....120....makes me sad and points to one of the real issues.

Sigh.

T-boy
08-10-2012, 01:03 PM
You can easily tell which players were Winter players: Koevs and Soolsma.
Frings came from Klinnsmann.

The players that lack technical skill are the ones Mariner picked up.

Winter himself said that he didn't find players. he asked for players, then picked from what Mariner got him. If he got him 10 Andy Iro's, Winter picked one of them.

The real question is, why were there no Bobby Conveys in the mix? I'm sure he was just as available to Mariner as he was to KC.

How about the players that ARE good that Mariner has brought here:

Eckersley
Lambe
Dunfield
Avila
Johnson (I don't like him, but a lot of fans do)
Hall
Silva

All players that Mariner is directly acountable for signing and have all been successful signings. Anybody disagree?

Who brought in Stefanovic? Anybody know?

T-boy
08-10-2012, 01:05 PM
We did get Amarikwa. His running fast in a straight line is the perfect complement to Johnson's running madly in every direction.

I can't judge Amerikwa by the ONE game we've all seen him play!

Ultra & Proud
08-10-2012, 01:07 PM
T-Boy, where (if anywhere) from your point of view are the weaknesses in team right now?

Same problem we've had for a number of years now and unlike a CB, is worthy of using a DP slot; a play-making AM. Not the pseudo-forward types like we have been using for the past few years (Silva, Avila, DeRo). A position lacking since Guevara left.

Richard
08-10-2012, 01:07 PM
I can't judge Amerikwa by the ONE game we've all seen him play!

Yes and No. Sometimes you can tell if a player has any substance in a game or two(especialy at there age), like Wiedeman he looks lost.

TFC Tifoso
08-10-2012, 01:10 PM
Anselmi set up the structure of the club so that Mariner was in charge of finding players, and yet Winter was the one in charge of playing them. That is a massive lack of cohesion within the structure of the club. I find it hardly ever works in a football club. The coach should be the one who is finding the players he needs, not another guy.

That has been the set up of TFC pretty much since Year 2 when Mo was finding players and the coach did the best he could with them......and the onus was always on Mo, ie. the guy responsible to find players for the coach, so why is the onus switched now?.....

also, a few teams in MLS play a 4-3-3 atack oriented style with players from NA, so you can't say Mariner's job before was impossible......he just did it poorly......

Oldtimer
08-10-2012, 01:12 PM
How about the players that ARE good that Mariner has brought here:

Eckersley Good (unfortunately Mariner often plays him out of position)
Lambe Meh
Dunfield Yuck
Avila Rumoured to be going
Johnson (I don't like him, but a lot of fans do) I don't like him, either
Hall Hardly a prize signing
Silva Good

All players that Mariner is directly acountable for signing and have all been successful signings. Anybody disagree?

Who brought in Stefanovic? Anybody know?

So there are two players that I would say other MLS squads would actually covet, plus Avila who probably is being traded. The rest I don't think would make it elsewhere. Not enough to counter losing:

Nick LaBrocca
Dwayne De Rosario
Nana Attackora
Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
JDG

T-boy
08-10-2012, 01:14 PM
That has been the set up of TFC pretty much since Year 2 when Mo was finding players and the coach did the best he could with them......and the onus was always on Mo, ie. the guy responsible to find players for the coach, so why is the onus switched now?.....

also, a few teams in MLS play a 4-3-3 atack oriented style with players from NA, so you can't say Mariner's job before was impossible......he just did it poorly......

It isn't as simple as "playing 4-3-3" though. If you have heard Rongen and De Klerk talk about their system, you will realise that it isn't as simple as finding "average MLS players". Their system is hell of a lot more complex than the other MLS teams systems.

T-boy
08-10-2012, 01:21 PM
So there are two players that I would say other MLS squads would actually covet, plus Avila who probably is being traded. The rest I don't think would make it elsewhere. Not enough to counter losing:

Nick LaBrocca - was VERY poor while at TFC. Do you disagree? Or did you see something while he was a TFC player to tell you otherwise?
Dwayne De Rosario - signed his own cheque goodbye on the field.
Nana Attackora - Had off the field issues and had to leave.
Alan Gordon - was always injured - if we had kept him last season, he wouldn't have played another game all season :( had to leave.
Maicon Santos - Was playing very poorly last season. Again, unless you saw something differently?
JDG - Was taking up an extremely valuable DP spot and a massive amount of cap money.



There's my judgements on why all those players had to leave and were best gone. I'd love to have a FIT Gordon here - but it wasn't going to happen. I'd love to have a mentally healthy Attakora here, but again, wasn't happening. I don't see losing any of these as "Mariner's fault". I think the majority of MLS coaches would have moved all these players due to their various "issues". And nobody could have foreseen LaBrocca's improvement in form given what we saw at TFC (minus one wind assisted goal, haha!).

jloome
08-10-2012, 01:37 PM
There's my judgements on why all those players had to leave and were best gone. I'd love to have a FIT Gordon here - but it wasn't going to happen. I'd love to have a mentally healthy Attakora here, but again, wasn't happening. I don't see losing any of these as "Mariner's fault". I think the majority of MLS coaches would have moved all these players due to their various "issues". And nobody could have foreseen LaBrocca's improvement in form given what we saw at TFC (minus one wind assisted goal, haha!).

I have to once again say, as I have to people on the other side of this, that you have lost your objectivity.

You are ignoring Oldtimer's main point, which is legitimate. Outside of the fact that he's a megafan with a good football mind who has years on the board and deserves more respect than a debate, rather than a dialetic.

Whether Mariner is better than Winter (he is at motivating, at the very least) is TOTALLY FUCKING IRRELEVANT. We are not debating the relative merits of the two managers. We are discussing whether the team can win with Mariner. That requires comparing him to OTHER TEAMS.

Jesus. The discussions on this board are so emotionally immature and unfocussed on anything but one-upmanship sometimes it makes me sick, frankly. That's what belief does; it compounds into ideology, and an absence of objectivity.

And I realize the threat is about Mariner's acquisitions, so that's not anargument; his acquisitions are only as relevant as whether we win more. Will we do that by playing an Aron Winter team at any point this season. No? THEN IT'S TOTALLY FUCKING IRRELEVANT.

I know you like the guy. I suspect he's a decent field coach. I suspect he torpedoed the shit out of Winter, which is why those signings were so bad, and he'll quietly, gradually, get rid of most of the dead weight, because he'll tell MLSE that he was only following orders when he signed them in the first place.

I suspect that, as a result of his inability to be competent when working with Winter, he will be reviled by half the fan base even if we win.

But that's all TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to whether he will lead us forward.

EDIT: And with respect to your view of those players, what are you talking about? Labrocca had seven assists for us the season before he was traded; Santos had six goals for us and was leading the team in scoring. DeRosario ended up with 15 goals and carried the team, even if he was an ass. Attakora DID NOT have off the field issues. He had a coach saying he had off the field issues. Not the same thing.

T-boy
08-10-2012, 01:50 PM
I'm not the one judging Mariner already by saying "he will fail"! If you read back through the other thread, you will read people saying that Mariner already needs to be fired! But for what reason? His performance as head caoch SO FAR has been reasonable! 4-4-4 and an easy win in the CCL. For a mid-season takeover coach, that's a good start IMO.

I wasn't the one who started to judge Mariner's head coach ability by his former upper management/front office job. I am trying to defend him, but other people started this conversation not me! So don't blame this on me!

A lot of people on this forum seem to be judging Mariner's "failure" before he's actually had a chance to fail! How can any TFC fan predict accurately how Mariner's team will perform in the future? You simply can't! So, the people who are already judging the future need to stop. I'm not the one who has lost objectivity! The people who are throwing Mariner under the bus before he's even failed are the ones who have totally lost it, not me!

IF (and that's an IF?) Mariner fails, I will equally judge the guy! But to this point, he so far has NOT failed!

Greatest Ripoff
08-10-2012, 01:51 PM
How about the players that ARE good that Mariner has brought here:



Eckersley - doesn't provide value for his cap hit, not worth it
Lambe - average MLS player who is young
Dunfield - works hard, has very little skill
Avila - good player that can't get a game under Mariner
Johnson (I don't like him, but a lot of fans do) - bleow average MLS striker
Hall - mid 20 something who has made a career of going from team to team, not very good
Silva - a good player, best of the list

None of these platers could get a game for Seattle, KC, RSL, SJ, LA ect.

T-boy
08-10-2012, 01:53 PM
I have no idea how TFC have won 4 games and drawn 4 with all those crappy players! Must be complete luck I guess? There luck will start to run out quickly and we will lose 9 in a row again. *rolleyes*

Ajax TFC
08-10-2012, 01:54 PM
Look at the players he gave away, almost for nothing:

Nick LaBrocca
Dwayne De Rosario
Nana Attackora
Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
JDG

I can't fully agree with this list. LaBrocca brought Alan Gordon (who brought Johnson, which I agree was a bad trade), so I don't think you can fairly put both on this list.
Maicon Santos brought us Avila who I would take any day over five Maicon Sontos'

ag futbol
08-10-2012, 01:55 PM
If you look at the list of players we are discussing here and look at how their replacements were... It really gets you back to why TFC struggles in the first place, their evaluation of talent is poor.


Nanna Attakora -> Logan Emory / Ty Harden

Maicon Santos -> Ryan Johnson

Nick Labrocca -> Terry Dunfield / Eric Avila


Were any of these really upgrades? I can't really say overall it improved the team, although in some cases it didn't exactly make us worse either. Really when it comes down to it, we're trusting the same people to find players for this team as we were before. Aron Winter was one guy on a staff of many people... problems remain.

Whoop
08-10-2012, 01:58 PM
I have no idea how TFC have won 4 games and drawn 4 with all those crappy players! Must be complete luck I guess? There luck will start to run out quickly and we will lose 9 in a row again. *rolleyes*


The wins had nothing to do with Mariner.

a) The team was better on paper than it showed. It was just a matter of time the team would win some matches. It's called regression. Or other cases, "new coach bump". There was no way, even with Winter in charge, that the team was going to go 1-33.

b) But the most likely reason, an in-form Danny Koevermans.

The team will regress back to a sub .500 team which is what it was during Winter's tenure mainly due to Mariner's poor player acquisitions.

Greatest Ripoff
08-10-2012, 01:58 PM
I have no idea how TFC have won 4 games and drawn 4 with all those crappy players! Must be complete luck I guess? There luck will start to run out quickly and we will lose 9 in a row again. *rolleyes*


The goal isn't to be a middle of the road team that goes 4-4-4, it is to be champions. The players you listed aren't good enough to play on championship teams. And please give it up about the start of the season. It's done and so Winter. No one gives a fuck about what happened anymore. This is about the direction the team in going in. And right now they are not acquiring players that will bring them championships despite have the 3rd largest payroll in MLS. Why spend $390,000 on an average to good RB and play him a CB where he is not a as good? Decisions like this is what holds Toronto back.

TFC Tifoso
08-10-2012, 02:00 PM
It isn't as simple as "playing 4-3-3" though. If you have heard Rongen and De Klerk talk about their system, you will realise that it isn't as simple as finding "average MLS players". Their system is hell of a lot more complex than the other MLS teams systems.

I did hear them explain it and imo, it was not very complicated at all......defensively, it basically amounted to the point that if a player steps out of his positional range to carry the ball up field, then the player who is positionally immediately in front of him drops back to cover....offensively, players who have the ball should look for and play the ball to teammates running in open spaces (which is what they should be doing anyways - runninng to open space)......its not that difficult......more difficult that the braindead way we're playing now, sure, but teams that use their brains often come away with the results anyways.......

ManUtd4ever
08-10-2012, 02:01 PM
Here's my post originally from the player movement thread:



Wrong. We need to look at Mariner's player acquisitions compared with a playoff team's acquisitions. Who is LA's Andy Iro? Does NY have an equivalent? *** crickets ***

Stop comparing Mariner to Winter. Compare his acquisitions to better team's acquisitions.

For example, Mariner picked up Léandre Griffit to play on the wing from the Krew. Sporting KC picked up Bobby Convey to play on the wing from San Jose. Is Griffit equivalent to Bobby Convey? Not even close.

It's even worse when you look at defenders. Would Eddy Viator have a chance with any other MLS squad? Jeremy Hall? Logan Emory? How about the disaster who was Caicedo (who was supposed to solve our defensive woes)?

Look at the players he gave away, almost for nothing:

Nick LaBrocca
Dwayne De Rosario
Nana Attackora
Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
JDG

It has nothing to do with whether his players would do better under him than Winter. Judge him by a winning team, not a losing team. Would his players stand a chance in a winning MLS squad? Would they even get in? IF they got in, would be be for bench strength? How was the value that he got for his trades? Where is the DeRo equivalent that we got? Maicon Santos equivalent? You see, he massively failed in that department. When Winter was let go, Mariner should have been shown the door as well.


By all accounts, it was Winter that wanted all these moves orchestrated. As for getting rid of JDG's DP contract, that was hailed as a great move by many supporters.

TFC Tifoso
08-10-2012, 02:01 PM
Eckersley - doesn't provide value for his cap hit, not worth it
Lambe - average MLS player who is young
Dunfield - works hard, has very little skill
Avila - good player that can't get a game under Mariner
Johnson (I don't like him, but a lot of fans do) - bleow average MLS striker
Hall - mid 20 something who has made a career of going from team to team, not very good
Silva - a good player, best of the list

None of these platers could get a game for Seattle, KC, RSL, SJ, LA ect.

bingo......

ag futbol
08-10-2012, 02:01 PM
I can't fully agree with this list. LaBrocca brought Alan Gordon (who brought Johnson, which I agree was a bad trade), so I don't think you can fairly put both on this list.
Maicon Santos brought us Avila who I would take any day over five Maicon Sontos'
I think that's pretty unfair to Santos. Different positions aside, I think it would be a struggle to reason that Eric Avila has a similar impact on the game to what Santos does.

Think people went a little off their rocker with criticisms of him while he was here. For starters, Winter was often playing him out of position which was entirely ridiculous. Second, while he did miss some opportunities he was also one of the few players on the team who had the ability to make something out of nothing. Overall, given his level of salary he is at least worthy of a substitute spot on the team. He's not perfect, but for a team that isn't exactly lighting the world on fire in the goals department, I think he's more than an acceptable piece. DCU is getting something good out of him, why couldn't we?

ManUtd4ever
08-10-2012, 02:05 PM
To add balance to this thread, how about crediting Mariner for the acquisitions of notable starters such as Silva, Johnson, Hassli, Lambe, Eckersley, O'Dea, etc.?

No manager in MLS bats .1000 when it comes to player acquisitions. Mariner's track record is definitely respectable thus far.

ManUtd4ever
08-10-2012, 02:11 PM
Eckersley - doesn't provide value for his cap hit, not worth it
Lambe - average MLS player who is young
Dunfield - works hard, has very little skill
Avila - good player that can't get a game under Mariner
Johnson (I don't like him, but a lot of fans do) - bleow average MLS striker
Hall - mid 20 something who has made a career of going from team to team, not very good
Silva - a good player, best of the list

None of these platers could get a game for Seattle, KC, RSL, SJ, LA ect.

I'll grant you that Dunfield and Hall are not starters on most MLS clubs.

As for the others, I would wager that they are talented enough to start for the majority of clubs in MLS. I have watched many MLS matches in the last few years that didn't involve TFC, and I have to say, you are seriously overestimating the average level of talent on most rosters throughout the league.

ManUtd4ever
08-10-2012, 02:18 PM
You can easily tell which players were Winter players: Koevs and Soolsma.
Frings came from Klinnsmann.

The players that lack technical skill are the ones Mariner picked up.

Winter himself said that he didn't find players. he asked for players, then picked from what Mariner got him. If he got him 10 Andy Iro's, Winter picked one of them.

The real question is, why were there no Bobby Conveys in the mix? I'm sure he was just as available to Mariner as he was to KC.

With all due respect OT, this statement is a completely subjective load of unsubstantiated crap. You have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.

ag futbol
08-10-2012, 02:19 PM
I'll grant you that Dunfield and Hall are not starters on most MLS clubs.

As for the others, I would wager that they are talented enough to start for the majority of clubs in MLS. I have watched many MLS matches in the last few years that didn't involve TFC, and I have to say, you are seriously overestimating the average level of talent on most rosters throughout the league.
I tend to disagree in most circumstances there.

Other than Eckersley and Silva, I'd challenge you to find a team currently in a playoff spot where any of those players listed would start and give a compelling reason why. In my mind it's pretty straight forward, most of those players were not starter quality prior to TFC and they aren't starter quality now either. The only guy who consistently started prior to TFC (Johnson) was being pushed heavily for his spot due to inconsistency, which i think would be happening today as well, if he was on a better team than ours.

TFC07
08-10-2012, 02:20 PM
To add balance to this thread, how about crediting Mariner for the acquisitions of notable starters such as Silva, Johnson, Hassli, Lambe, Eckersley, O'Dea, etc.?

No manager in MLS bats .1000 when it comes to player acquisitions. Mariner's track record is definitely respectable thus far.


Hassli: Vancouver were planning to get rid of him so they can have cap space to sign more players. TFC were only team willing to take him. So it was no brainer for TFC to acquire him after Danny K was done for the season.

Eckersley: He's making $390K! That's issue a lot of fans here have with Eck. Signing like this kills cap space to bring in quality players.

O'Dea: Too early to judge, but he has bounce around a lot. Giving scouting reports I have read on him, he's just your typical defender who's not comfortable with ball on his feet.

Lambe: Very inconsistent player, but the money he's making, I have no issues with him.

Johnson: He's pretty much tan version of Chad Barrett, but he's an okay pick up. Nothing special to brag about if you're trying to build a case for Mariner.

Silva: High draft pick. It wasn't hardest decision to make to draft Silva.

Mariner has failed to bring in high quality CB and couple of quality attacking players during his 2 years. That's where he fails on this issue.

ManUtd4ever
08-10-2012, 02:25 PM
I tend to disagree in most circumstances there.

Other than Eckersley and Silva, I'd challenge you to find a team currently in a playoff spot where any of those players listed would start and give a compelling reason why. In my mind it's pretty straight forward, most of those players were not starter quality prior to TFC and they aren't starter quality now either. The only guy who consistently started prior to TFC (Johnson) was being pushed heavily for his spot due to inconsistency, which i think would be happening today as well, if he was on a better team than ours.

We'll agree to disagree. I've watched more than enough MLS football to feel comfortable with my assertion. The players I referred to are more than skilled enough to earn starting roles on the majority of clubs in the league. Perhaps not the elite clubs, but definitely the rest.

starter
08-10-2012, 02:29 PM
Mariner failed to secure a decent CB for the squad by the start of the season, the most needed position at the time, contributing to the team awful start and Winters demise.
He has since failed to formulate the club direction, got rid of players capable of playing 433, and is turning TFC into a track & field team. It does not look good.

Canary10
08-10-2012, 02:54 PM
I can't judge Amerikwa by the ONE game we've all seen him play!

I think you can get a good sense of how someone plays after one game (he's had a few games actually). If you don't rate Johnson, then you have a place where Mariner has failed - we've not had a proper second striker all year. Which is part of the reason I find it odd that we insist on playing a two striker formation.

On the CB issue, Matt Hedges and Austin Berry are both starters now with Dallas and Chicago respectively. Berry scored the winner against us a few weeks ago. We could have had either of those players in the 2012 draft. We went with Silva instead, who may be a decent player, but we absolutely knew that CB was our problem. Why wouldn't we have drafted one of these two guys? We could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble, gotten a player cheap, who would be with us for a long time and potentially be the next Omar Gonzalez.

Beach_Red
08-10-2012, 03:06 PM
You can easily tell which players were Winter players: Koevs and Soolsma.
Frings came from Klinnsmann.

The players that lack technical skill are the ones Mariner picked up.

Winter himself said that he didn't find players. he asked for players, then picked from what Mariner got him. If he got him 10 Andy Iro's, Winter picked one of them.

The real question is, why were there no Bobby Conveys in the mix? I'm sure he was just as available to Mariner as he was to KC.

What makes you so sure? There may be plenty going on behind the scenes we are unaware of. TFC has had plenty of rumours in its history of agents being too involved and even of kickbacks and shady dealings (remember all the "Mista-Preki" rumours?). We really have no idea.

Ultra & Proud
08-10-2012, 03:32 PM
Wow! Another thread filled with schoolgirl-styled whining and ranting over the same shit covered in about 20 other threads. Amazing.

I think I'll just leave this here:
http://jumbossellout.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/kleenex.jpg

narduch
08-10-2012, 03:33 PM
Wow! Another thread filled with schoolgirl-styled whining and ranting over the same shit covered in about 20 other threads. Amazing.

I think I'll just leave this here:
http://jumbossellout.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/kleenex.jpg

Maybe you should take a tissue for your self because nothing is worse than whining about whining.

Let the people that want to discuss this issue discuss it. You don't have to be a douchebag about it.

Ultra & Proud
08-10-2012, 03:47 PM
Maybe you should take a tissue for your self because nothing is worse than whining about whining.

Let the people that want to discuss this issue discuss it. You don't have to be a douchebag about it.
Yes. Yes I do.

Especially when every thread gets side tracked by the same line of talk. Winter got to shitstorm it through more than one half of last season and no one said boo. Mariner gets in and this line of talk starts before he managed 5 matches. Some people are already questing O'Dea and saying Mariner still hasn't filled the CB spot, yet O'Dea hasn't played 1 minute here yet. Everyone should give Mariner the rest of this season to see what he's got then the winter window to make moves and if he bombs out like Winter next season then he gets sent on his way in the same fashion.

Or this pointless complaining can continue and there can be 100+ threads that all diverge into the same thing. Might as well merge them all together and get the first 500 page thread in RBP board history.

This is a supporters forum and group. So be supportive and give people a chance.

Auzzy
08-10-2012, 04:46 PM
Yes. Yes I do.

Especially when every thread gets side tracked by the same line of talk. Winter got to shitstorm it through more than one half of last season and no one said boo. Mariner gets in and this line of talk starts before he managed 5 matches. Some people are already questing O'Dea and saying Mariner still hasn't filled the CB spot, yet O'Dea hasn't played 1 minute here yet. Everyone should give Mariner the rest of this season to see what he's got then the winter window to make moves and if he bombs out like Winter next season then he gets sent on his way in the same fashion.

Or this pointless complaining can continue and there can be 100+ threads that all diverge into the same thing. Might as well merge them all together and get the first 500 page thread in RBP board history.

This is a supporters forum and group. So be supportive and give people a chance.

^ This thread was created (BY A MARINER SUPPORTER!!!) specifically to keep these discussions out of the other threads, especially the TFC player player movement thread. So give it a rest if people want to chat about it in here, eh? Nobody is forcing you to read this thread. If another thread also gets too sidetracked, again it can be split between these ongoing issues & more specific topics.

Red CB Toronto
08-10-2012, 04:52 PM
That number....120....makes me sad and points to one of the real issues.

Sigh.

Well when Darren O'Deay and Freddie Hall make their first team debuts it raise the total to my count of 119 players who have suited up for at least one minute in a competitive match, plus there is around 15 more who never got off the bench.While this a concerning number to us as it shows how much of this revolving door stuff has gone on with the Reds, I think while we should not let them off the hook, we also not loose to much sleep over as at the end of the day this is suppose to be about having fun and from my standpoint if you are not, what's the point.

BHTC Mike
08-10-2012, 04:55 PM
Yes. Yes I do.
You really do.

If you just judged by this thread you'd think that Paul Mariner ran our team from January 2011 to May 2012 not Aron Winter. That it wasn't Aron Winter who complained about "lack of quality" or decided "now I start making some trades" in the process of playing more players in an MLS season THAN ANY TEAM EVER (even Mo's!). You'd think that TFC doesn't operate in an environment of salary budgets, domestic player quotas, and legacy contracts. That 4-4-4 (during a run of 7 away games to 5 home games) is worse than 1-0-9 (and losing 5 straight home games to start a season).

It's pretty much exactly what was always gonna happen: no record of Mariner's was ever going to be good enough for people still hung up on "the plan" and, after any losing streak, the knives would come out. The fact that that losing streak came against the hottest team in the league (who also beat the last four teams they met in addition to us) and in an away game we lead for 55 minutes - longer than we lead under Winter all season - and was sandwiched around a Champions League THRASHING like we've never seen before makes it all the more laughable.

For those keeping score (who understand the restrictions you face building a roster in MLS):

Hassli - an emergency signing not planned for to be sure. Did we pay too high a price? Maybe, but it's gonna be a while before we know whether he works out or DannyK comes back and what our draft pick ends up equaling. In a "best possible" scenario we actually could end up with TWO difference maker designated players at forward and not have to rely exclusively on one of them. That may seem like a luxury but, since you can never count on either being available, could be a real advantage on a team that wants to compete all season.

O'Dea - not the "boss man" world class CB of our dreams but a player with the potential to be a long term solution where we've never had any continuity. We'll have to see how he works out and what sort of money he's on but, again, this could be one of the best TFC signings ever.

Wiedeman - GA player so he's FREE for now and has an opportunity to show he belongs in this league while we wait for him to graduate. We acquired him as a throw-in in a deal that got Julian De Guzman off the books early instead of letting him leave for nothing in the off season. Is he a better option to invest in than Soolsma or Plata? I'm not sure but he is domestic, costs less (for now), and Mariner seems to have faith in him. We'll see if that faith is justified over the next year or so. Most likely he'll be the next victim of a too high GA salary like Avila and we'll move on to another option; everything he contributes until then is a bonus.

Amarikwa - cost us virtually nothing and is basically on a half season trial. He HAS contributed as a depth player on a championship team before. This is exactly the sort of guy a bad MLS team looking to improve, with limited budget and roster options, has to give a shot to. Most won't work out but the ones that do are worth their weight in gold because any player of value so close to the league minimum, without other options, can be kept around for peanuts and fills a role on the team. And, for what it's worth, I LIKE the fact that he's bounced out of a couple teams already: he knows this is his last chance to stick in this league and show he belongs. Things seemed to be working out for him in Colorado before the coaching change - he's definitely more of a Smith player than a Pareja player - and probably has a better chance at success than a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick.

Hall - finally gives us an actual back-up keeper after Frei's injury; sorry Academy true believers: nothing I've seen from Roberts convinces me he's ready or would benefit from being thrown in. Using an international spot is probably more resources than you'd prefer to but if Mariner's comfortable and we're finding "good enough" domestics to fill out the depth spots on the rest of the roster, it's not the end of the world. In the end, MLS's contract rules mean that we can cut him before contracts become guaranteed next year if Frei comes back and we can't move one of either him or Kocic for a reasonable return.

This is how you build a roster in MLS. If that's not good enough for you maybe you're better off not following a team in the league. It's going to be early next season before we know whether most of these moves worked out and saying today that "the team is worse than it was before the transfer window" ignores the process of working towards the team you want. Yes, our midfield was "more talented" with Julian De Guzman. It was also saddled with a player taking up $350K of budget space and a further $1.6mil in real money (that still isn't free to spend on other DPs). DUNFIELD, a guy on MLS bench wages, is giving us starter minutes and better performances than JDG consistently could (even if he never equals Julian at his best). If getting rid of inconsistent performers who weren't holding down positions like Julian, Soolsma, Plata, ACEVAL(!), and Burgos gives you the flexibility to acquire TWO STARTERS and a bunch of budget depth that's good business.

Forza Mariner.

ManUtd4ever
08-10-2012, 05:11 PM
Winter got to shitstorm it through more than one half of last season and no one said boo. Mariner gets in and this line of talk starts before he managed 5 matches. Some people are already questing O'Dea and saying Mariner still hasn't filled the CB spot, yet O'Dea hasn't played 1 minute here yet. Everyone should give Mariner the rest of this season to see what he's got then the winter window to make moves and if he bombs out like Winter next season then he gets sent on his way in the same fashion.




If you just judged by this thread you'd think that Paul Mariner ran our team from January 2011 to May 2012 not Aron Winter. That it wasn't Aron Winter who complained about "lack of quality" or decided "now I start making some trades" in the process of playing more players in an MLS season THAN ANY TEAM EVER (even Mo's!). You'd think that TFC doesn't operate in an environment of salary budgets, domestic player quotas, and legacy contracts. That 4-4-4 (during a run of 7 away games to 5 home games) is worse than 1-0-9 (and losing 5 straight home games to start a season).

It's pretty much exactly what was always gonna happen: no record of Mariner's was ever going to be good enough for people still hung up on "the plan" and, after any losing streak, the knives would come out. The fact that that losing streak came against the hottest team in the league (who also beat the last four teams they met in addition to us) and in an away game we lead for 55 minutes - longer than we lead under Winter all season - and was sandwiched around a Champions League THRASHING like we've never seen before makes it all the more laughable.




http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g271/robotvmonkey/gifs/applause.gif








(http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0);)

Thomas
08-10-2012, 05:12 PM
I don't know about Forza Mariner, but I agree with most of your statements. I don't understand why Mariner, after only a hand full of games as coach, is getting this kind of vitriol. On the other hand, if PM's record is as bad or worse than AW by the end of the season, by all means...off with his head.


You really do.

If you just judged by this thread you'd think that Paul Mariner ran our team from January 2011 to May 2012 not Aron Winter. That it wasn't Aron Winter who complained about "lack of quality" or decided "now I start making some trades" in the process of playing more players in an MLS season THAN ANY TEAM EVER (even Mo's!). You'd think that TFC doesn't operate in an environment of salary budgets, domestic player quotas, and legacy contracts. That 4-4-4 (during a run of 7 away games to 5 home games) is worse than 1-0-9 (and losing 5 straight home games to start a season).

It's pretty much exactly what was always gonna happen: no record of Mariner's was ever going to be good enough for people still hung up on "the plan" and, after any losing streak, the knives would come out. The fact that that losing streak came against the hottest team in the league (who also beat the last four teams they met in addition to us) and in an away game we lead for 55 minutes - longer than we lead under Winter all season - and was sandwiched around a Champions League THRASHING like we've never seen before makes it all the more laughable.

For those keeping score (who understand the restrictions you face building a roster in MLS):

Hassli - an emergency signing not planned for to be sure. Did we pay too high a price? Maybe, but it's gonna be a while before we know whether he works out or DannyK comes back and what our draft pick ends up equaling. In a "best possible" scenario we actually could end up with TWO difference maker designated players at forward and not have to rely exclusively on one of them. That may seem like a luxury but, since you can never count on either being available, could be a real advantage on a team that wants to compete all season.

O'Dea - not the "boss man" world class CB of our dreams but a player with the potential to be a long term solution where we've never had any continuity. We'll have to see how he works out and what sort of money he's on but, again, this could be one of the best TFC signings ever.

Wiedeman - GA player so he's FREE for now and has an opportunity to show he belongs in this league while we wait for him to graduate. We acquired him as a throw-in in a deal that got Julian De Guzman off the books early instead of letting him leave for nothing in the off season. Is he a better option to invest in than Soolsma or Plata? I'm not sure but he is domestic, costs less (for now), and Mariner seems to have faith in him. We'll see if that faith is justified over the next year or so. Most likely he'll be the next victim of a too high GA salary like Avila and we'll move on to another option; everything he contributes until then is a bonus.

Amarikwa - cost us virtually nothing and is basically on a half season trial. He HAS contributed as a depth player on a championship team before. This is exactly the sort of guy a bad MLS team looking to improve, with limited budget and roster options, has to give a shot to. Most won't work out but the ones that do are worth their weight in gold because any player of value so close to the league minimum, without other options, can be kept around for peanuts and fills a role on the team. And, for what it's worth, I LIKE the fact that he's bounced out of a couple teams already: he knows this is his last chance to stick in this league and show he belongs. Things seemed to be working out for him in Colorado before the coaching change - he's definitely more of a Smith player than a Pareja player - and probably has a better chance at success than a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick.

Hall - finally gives us an actual back-up keeper after Frei's injury; sorry Academy true believers: nothing I've seen from Roberts convinces me he's ready or would benefit from being thrown in. Using an international spot is probably more resources than you'd prefer to but if Mariner's comfortable and we're finding "good enough" domestics to fill out the depth spots on the rest of the roster, it's not the end of the world. In the end, MLS's contract rules mean that we can cut him before contracts become guaranteed next year if Frei comes back and we can't move one of either him or Kocic for a reasonable return.

This is how you build a roster in MLS. If that's not good enough for you maybe you're better off not following a team in the league. It's going to be early next season before we know whether most of these moves worked out and saying today that "the team is worse than it was before the transfer window" ignores the process of working towards the team you want. Yes, our midfield was "more talented" with Julian De Guzman. It was also saddled with a player taking up $350K of budget space and a further $1.6mil in real money (that still isn't free to spend on other DPs). DUNFIELD, a guy on MLS bench wages, is giving us starter minutes and better performances than JDG consistently could (even if he never equals Julian at his best). If getting rid of inconsistent performers who weren't holding down positions like Julian, Soolsma, Plata, ACEVAL(!), and Burgos gives you the flexibility to acquire TWO STARTERS and a bunch of budget depth that's good business.

Forza Mariner.

prizby
08-10-2012, 05:17 PM
Nice question.

Weaknesses:

Ryan Johnson isn't a very good player IMO. His off the ball movement is poor, and he gets far too frustrated with himself and destracted from the game. He spends way too much time watching replays on the big screen and not enough time playing the game and concentrating. He isn't consistent enough and his finishing, as we all know, is poor. I'd much prefer Koev's/Hassli and another (I would give Silva a chance as second striker). Johnson is no more than a bench player IMO.

Until thid last week I'd also add in CB - but we need to see how O'Dea plays, and I can't judge that right now. I'd prefer to see Ecks play at FB, where he is more effective.

I'd also personally like to see the two wide midfielders play WIDER than Mariner has them playing. Lambe needs to sit more on the touchline than he does. He gets crowded out too often playing inside. But the midfielders we have, I would say are pretty good. Frings and Dunfield play well together, and a mix of Lambe, Silva, or Avila is a good midfield.

I'd replace Johnson in a heartbeat, though!

lets see, it was RJ9's movement that left silva all alone when it was 1-0 toronto in chicago

a lot of RJ9's off the ball movement gave Koef space to score a lot of his goals

RJ9 hustles and works his tail off, reminds me of a chat barrett, but he can set up goals and his finishing is a tad better

prizby
08-10-2012, 05:22 PM
I don't know about Forza Mariner, but I agree with most of your statements. I don't understand why Mariner, after only a hand full of games as coach, is getting this kind of vitriol. On the other hand, if PM's record is as bad or worse than AW by the end of the season, by all means...off with his head.

its because we were promised a sexy style and now we are direct and long ball...the things we hated a few years ago...i think fans are a bit greedy wanting to win with the swagger...who knows

Thomas
08-10-2012, 05:29 PM
I don't mind watching a nice pretty style of play, but at the end of the day, I care most about results.

BHTC Mike
08-10-2012, 05:34 PM
Wrong. We need to look at Mariner's player acquisitions compared with a playoff team's acquisitions. Who is LA's Andy Iro? Does NY have an equivalent?
Rafa Marquez?


You keep bringing in Winter because that's the only way Mariner looks good. How does he compare to Bruce Arena? Frank Yallop? Sigi Schmidt?
Good to see your intellectual consistency. A year and a bit of "we don't know, Winter could be the next Jason Kreis" becomes "is Paul Mariner as good as Bruce Arena" after being in charge for 13 games. And, for the record, he compares pretty well. Better than Winter did to Jason Kreis.


There is a reason you aren't mentioning any of those guys.
He may not have but I've mentioned Yallop mulitple times in the "Possession Tactics" thread as an example of the sort of guy who plays pragmatic MLS football with MLS players. He'd be run out of town here before he could have ever done anything like he's accomplished in San Jose because to cries of "too Canadian", "too English", "too MLS 1.0", and "too boring."

Why'd he decide that Bobby Convey, the guy you're holding up as the gold standard of MLS aquisitions, was surplus to requirements? That's exactly the sort of move that WAS bitched about by San Jose supporters and would have the peanut gallery in an uproar if it happened here.


Or to put it another way, would you rather have any of those three or Mariner? I know what my answer would be.
Right, because that makes a lot of sense. We're playing Fantasy Manager draft now. We can't compare Mariner to the coach who immeadiately preceeded him but can compare him, after 13 games in charge, to three of the most successful MLS coaches of all time.

Look, to all the people who don't want Paul Mariner as head coach of TFC: we get it. You don't like him. You've already made up your mind.

Guess what? I didn't like the hire of Aron Winter. I was never convinced by him either and didn't think, based on all past evidence around the league, his program was likely to be successful. But that was the direction TFC decided to go in early 2011 and, even though I was unsure, I consistently said that we'd have to wait and see if he worked out because he had been handed his shot and all we could do was hope that he'd be successful. EVEN IN THE FACE OF A SIX WIN SEASON I thought the need for stability and continuity (and a better second half mixed with unlikely CCL success) closed any discussion over replacing him during the past offseason. It literally took a RECORD SETTING run of league futility for senior management to bite the bullet and acknowledge their mistake.

Here's the thing: if you're right, all you've got to do is wait. There's no need to invent a narrative of failure where none exists. Rather than trying to win the argument and convince everyone else that PAULMARINERISTHEENGLISHHOOFBALLMERCHANTDEVILWEREGO NNALOSEFOREVER why not just sit back and see what happens. Believe it or not, winning an argument on the RPB forum isn't going to decided the future of TFC. If Paul Mariner can't get this team AT LEAST up to midtable respectability and consistently competitive by the summer of next year - not San Jose, KC, or RSL good but at least what Rennie's done in Vancouver or Klopas in Chicago - he'll be sacrificed on the alter of season ticket renewals like so many before him. If, after six years of bad to mediocre and two years of FREAKING HORRIBLE, being midtable next year isn't good enough for you maybe you should, for your own good, just take a break from TFC.

Personally, I already see a TFC that is more consistently competitive at home than they've been in two years and actually has a chance of occasionally winning on the road. That's a step forward and constitutes success in my eyes. I don't care if that's achieved playing tactically simpler football* or makes our stats look unimpressive because I don't think either of those things prevents us from moving towards a more sophisticated style once results are stabilized and we've got an actual team capable of playing good football. Being a good team was always going to be a multi-year project but there's no need to be horrible in the interim.

*Not that I accept that what Mariner's doing is necessarily tactically simpler. It requires less technical ability and places a greater emphasis on athleticism but, to be honest, I found Winter's football to be incredibly naive tactically when confronted with the realities of his team and opponents. Being tactically adaptable and able to craft a formation and game plan opponent by opponent is more tactically advanced than just insisting that TFC play "their football" game in, game out. But, if you rely on catchphrases and can only see "hoofball" in how Mariner is setting up his team you're gonna miss all of that.

Blizzard
08-10-2012, 05:53 PM
Same problem we've had for a number of years now and unlike a CB, is worthy of using a DP slot; a play-making AM. Not the pseudo-forward types like we have been using for the past few years (Silva, Avila, DeRo). A position lacking since Guevara left.

Pablo Vitti was the heir apparent to Guevara. I think our midfield would have been in a much better position if we could have offered him enough to stay after his loan period / Independiente contract ran out. He was offered a contract at a rather large cut so he decided to go elsewhere.

jazzy
08-10-2012, 07:22 PM
all i know is andy iro, leandre griffitt and any other player that has suited up for the reds during their first six years has been kind enough to sign my photos for my all-time tfc collection, which is over 120 players.



and counting

Pookie
08-10-2012, 07:39 PM
I am still stuck on the first page of this thread pondering t-boy's statement that Mariner is getting more out of the same players than Winter. It's as if last season's post transfer window improvement and the CCL run never happened. As for explaining it, Whoop has it nailed.

Benficachop20
08-10-2012, 08:03 PM
How about the players that ARE good that Mariner has brought here:

Eckersley
Lambe
Dunfield
Avila
Johnson (I don't like him, but a lot of fans do)
Hall
Silva



lmao sorry but this is suppose to be a good list? Hall?? we're talking about Jeremy Hall right? lmfao. seriously are u trolling? surely i can't be the only one here that thinks Hall is by far one of the worst defenders we've ever signed (and that's saying a lot) the guy gets beaten in every single one on one battle that its seriously shocking how many times he gets beaten every game.

Ecks. i know people here like him but i don't find anything impressive of a defender running around like a headless chicken most of the time, even when he has the ball he either kicks it up to no one or he just runs straight to a defender and loses possession, plus the number of reckless tackles, he's just a red card waiting to happen plus his salary.

Lambe is a so so player, i would take Soolsma and Plata over him though any day.

Dunfield - gone from everybody agreeing he's shit to being the most overrated player on the team. Just look at how other teams completely dominate our midfield game in game out and Dunfield plays a role along with Frings thats vital to winning possession and those 2 are not doing the job.

Avilla - a very average player that offers next to nothing and is often a ghost most of the match.

Johnson - well.... some good qualities but some very bad ones as well, should be placed as a winger rather than a striker.

Silva is a keeper.

ur list just convinced me more that Mariner isn't the man for the job just based on player he's brought in.

TFC07
08-10-2012, 08:26 PM
People don't realize that reason why there are people like me who are not pro-Mariner because Mariner had 2 years to build this team (this transfer window he has failed again to upgrade talent level of this team). So giving him another season more is not right thing to do since Mariner hasn't earned another chance. Winter is fired and guy who's responsible of bringing in players didn't get an ounce of blame. No accountability or no responsibility. But of course, let's give guy who has been bringing in shit players then lied to our faces when he took over coaching duties that he wasn't going to change much how we played (style wise) another chance. Mariner needs to be held accountable as well. You can't point your fingers only on Winter alone. That's reason why people like me want Mariner and rest of FO gone end of this season. They're cancer in this club not players who give it their all!

tiberius
08-10-2012, 08:30 PM
I don't know about Forza Mariner, but I agree with most of your statements. I don't understand why Mariner, after only a hand full of games as coach, is getting this kind of vitriol. On the other hand, if PM's record is as bad or worse than AW by the end of the season, by all means...off with his head.

OMFG - what a statement - I am sorry, but where the F..k have you been???? Mariner has been integral (ie HIS FUCKING JOB DESCRIPTION) has been acquiring players in the past two fucking years. Look has what has gone out, look at what has come in. Look at our goddamn fucking record. Are you fucking happy???? If you can't figure out why people might be disenchanted with Paul Mariner after two fucking years, I don't know what to say... Are you a fucking ostrich???? Do you really think you can be successful EVER, with 30% possession???? You are just not being candid. Period, End of story.

You can disagree, you can take the opposite side of the argument - but to say you have no idea is just plain bullshit. :facepalm: I will apologize in advance, but this is just outrageous. Cut the BS and make a real argument.

starter
08-10-2012, 09:13 PM
its because we were promised a sexy style and now we are direct and long ball...the things we hated a few years ago...i think fans are a bit greedy wanting to win with the swagger...who knows

That is it! Thank you!

Ajax TFC
08-10-2012, 09:22 PM
Avilla - a very average player that offers next to nothing and is often a ghost most of the match.

that's because he's been played out of position in almost every game this year. He's a play-maker who can pass through small spaces quickly, and can accurately send runners. Most of his playing time this season has come on the left wing where his main skills are pretty much useless.

tfcocd
08-10-2012, 09:31 PM
...mentioned Yallop mulitple times in the "Possession Tactics" thread as an example of the sort of guy who plays pragmatic MLS football with MLS players. He'd be run out of town here before he could have ever done anything like he's accomplished in San Jose because to cries of "too Canadian", "too English", "too MLS 1.0", and "too boring."

Personally, I already see a TFC that is more consistently competitive at home than they've been in two years and actually has a chance of occasionally winning on the road. That's a step forward and constitutes success in my eyes. I don't care if that's achieved playing tactically simpler football* or makes our stats look unimpressive because I don't think either of those things prevents us from moving towards a more sophisticated style once results are stabilized and we've got an actual team capable of playing good football. Being a good team was always going to be a multi-year project but there's no need to be horrible in the interim.

*Not that I accept that what Mariner's doing is necessarily tactically simpler. It requires less technical ability and places a greater emphasis on athleticism but, to be honest, I found Winter's football to be incredibly naive tactically when confronted with the realities of his team and opponents. Being tactically adaptable and able to craft a formation and game plan opponent by opponent is more tactically advanced than just insisting that TFC play "their football" game in, game out. But, if you rely on catchphrases and can only see "hoofball" in how Mariner is setting up his team you're gonna miss all of that.

Hey, if we didn't continue to beat the dead horse we wouldn't get interesting posts like yours! I find the debate an entertaining and some times comical read... could do without the vitriol, but whatever, how personal can you take troll attacks?

I have tried to watch more MLS games over the years because I have realized I am not informed enough about the league compared to the EPL for example. And in the last couple of years a couple of the standout games that I have watched are SanJose v LA. I always admired the technical quality and tactics in the matchups which, at least in the games I watched, lead to exciting end to end play and some goals. Yes this seasons latest matchup was more about San Jose gifting inexplicable goals to LA but still entertaining for me anyway, and what a comeback win by them. LA is a 4-4-2 team and I guess SanJose is 'English' style as well. I think it points to the possibility that the game TFC is playing can improve technically and tactically. The fact that they are still winning some games now is very encouraging with so much room for improvement. I have seen 4-4-2 teams play tiki taka, tidy football and there are many teams that keep the ball on the floor in the Championship and obviously the EPL. Whether the future is 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 modeling yourself after successful clubs in the MLS is probably a good thing.

Thomas
08-10-2012, 09:58 PM
Tiberius, or whatever your name is I would really like to say what I feel about your unwarranted statements, but I am not going to even bother getting drawn into your crap. You should aplogise for your out of proportion response. All I was trying to say was give PM till the end of the season before jumping to conclusions.


OMFG - what a statement - I am sorry, but where the F..k have you been???? Mariner has been integral (ie HIS FUCKING JOB DESCRIPTION) has been acquiring players in the past two fucking years. Look has what has gone out, look at what has come in. Look at our goddamn fucking record. Are you fucking happy???? If you can't figure out why people might be disenchanted with Paul Mariner after two fucking years, I don't know what to say... Are you a fucking ostrich???? Do you really think you can be successful EVER, with 30% possession???? You are just not being candid. Period, End of story.

You can disagree, you can take the opposite side of the argument - but to say you have no idea is just plain bullshit. :facepalm: I will apologize in advance, but this is just outrageous. Cut the BS and make a real argument.

Whoop
08-10-2012, 11:10 PM
All I want to know is what has Mariner done to deserve a 3 year extension that he signed back in May?

Signing Viator, Aceval, Caicedo?

His best acquisition was Luis Silva via the draft.

jloome
08-10-2012, 11:47 PM
Tiberius, or whatever your name is I would really like to say what I feel about your unwarranted statements, but I am not going to even bother getting drawn into your crap. You should aplogise for your out of proportion response. All I was trying to say was give PM till the end of the season before jumping to conclusions.

If it's uncivil for him to be rude, it's uncivil for you to, as he suggests, pretend you don't understand the opposition. Not agreeing with long-standing arguments is a far sight from knowing they don't exist, and just as disrespectful of their position as he was being of yours.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, there's a little truth on both sides of this debate, but people are simply sticking to Winter v. Mariner

It's not even the same argument throughout. The people arguing against Mariner aren't arguing he's worse than Winter. They're arguing that he contributed to Winter's bad tenure and hasn't done as well as they'd like, and does not look like a coach for the future.

The pro people are arguing his results are slightly better and his player picks are strong.

So really, these are positions separated by a fairly fine line. And yet everyone seems intent on winning a fight online.

Richard
08-10-2012, 11:52 PM
All I want to know is what has Mariner done to deserve a 3 year extension that he signed back in May?

Signing Viator, Aceval, Caicedo?

His best acquisition was Luis Silva via the draft.

Same reason Mo got a 3 year extension. Guys at the top either have no clue or looking after eachothers buddies so they are financially well off, seem like a big scam to me.

v00d00daddy
08-11-2012, 06:56 AM
Here's the rub for me....and it taints everything Mariner does:

"Hopefully a new message, a new voice, and a slight tweak in direction, but sticking with the long-term direction and we can start getting it right,"
-Paul Mariner two months ago.

Two months later and the "long-term direction" looks to be gone.

The players be acquired are not the type of players described in the long term direction of this team. And the players being heralded as the leaders on this team (Dunfield, O'Dea) aren't either.

Our DP Midfielder has been marginalized in the new formation and style of play.

And I'm supposed to be content with the record because it's better than Winter's atrocious record? If that's the measuring stick, it would make sense that ANYBODY would be a "better" coach. Unfortunately that's not how it works.

Mariner lied to us. Moreover, he was a part of the reason we went 0-9 to start the season because he was a vital part of the staff even then.

Some people here wiped the slate clean as far as it goes with Mariner when he was promoted to head coach.

Why is that?

Why can't his feet be held to the fire if he was a part of the last 2 years?

Why can't we expect him to do what he says (in the quote above) and when he doesn't....and goes so far that his style of play has now bled into the academy....why can't I call him a bold faced liar and not have any respect for him?

Regardless of his "results"

prizby
08-11-2012, 08:19 AM
Here's the rub for me....and it taints everything Mariner does:

"Hopefully a new message, a new voice, and a slight tweak in direction, but sticking with the long-term direction and we can start getting it right,"
-Paul Mariner two months ago.

Two months later and the "long-term direction" looks to be gone.

The players be acquired are not the type of players described in the long term direction of this team. And the players being heralded as the leaders on this team (Dunfield, O'Dea) aren't either.



Disagree. Its not gone one bit...take yourself to an academy game and watch. The last academy game I watched, they were still playing Winter tactics and for some of the game, exactly the way Winter wanted them to be played (actually was using 3 strikers and only defending with 7 players; neither winger dropped back much more than 10 yards into their own half). The quote you mention is about the long-term direction with the academy that will one day hopefully be re-adopted by the first team.

v00d00daddy
08-11-2012, 08:53 AM
Disagree. Its not gone one bit...take yourself to an academy game and watch. The last academy game I watched, they were still playing Winter tactics and for some of the game, exactly the way Winter wanted them to be played (actually was using 3 strikers and only defending with 7 players; neither winger dropped back much more than 10 yards into their own half). The quote you mention is about the long-term direction with the academy that will one day hopefully be re-adopted by the first team.

Well that's good to hear. I'd read a couple different experiences from Denime so it's nice to know it's not all gone at the academy level.

But I think you're interpretation of the Mariner quote is a little generous towards him. The long term direction should also include the first team. It makes no sense to scrap it at the first team level if you plan on coming back to it one day. There are several teams playing a possession based 4-3-3. Sure...the TFC version may be a bit different but it's not so different that the logical step is to install a style of play that is quite literally the opposite of what we were told we'd be seeing.

I also hate the "slight tweak" comment. That was a complete lie. There is no room for interpretation there. The guy said it was going to be slight changes and proceeded to change everything. I feel like the club lied to me and that lie came out of the current coach's mouth. Add to this that he carries himself like a buffoon (in my opinion) on the touch lines and I hate the style of playing we're currently using and as a result, I have no time for the guy.

Regardless if we get results against other bad teams.

Greatest Ripoff
08-11-2012, 09:00 AM
I've said it before, I'll say it again, there's a little truth on both sides of this debate, but people are simply sticking to Winter v. Mariner

Why is anybody who is anti-Mariner labeled at pro-Winter? I am anti both of them. None of them seem to have any flexibility.

prizby
08-11-2012, 09:02 AM
Well that's good to hear. I'd read a couple different experiences from Denime so it's nice to know it's not all gone at the academy level.

But I think you're interpretation of the Mariner quote is a little generous towards him. The long term direction should also include the first team. It makes no sense to scrap it at the first team level if you plan on coming back to it one day. There are several teams playing a possession based 4-3-3. Sure...the TFC version may be a bit different but it's not so different that the logical step is to install a style of play that is quite literally the opposite of what we were told we'd be seeing.

I also hate the "slight tweak" comment. That was a complete lie. There is no room for interpretation there. The guy said it was going to be slight changes and proceeded to change everything. I feel like the club lied to me and that lie came out of the current coach's mouth. Add to this that he carries himself like a buffoon (in my opinion) on the touch lines and I hate the style of playing we're currently using and as a result, I have no time for the guy.

Regardless if we get results against other bad teams.

if you are quoting what he said when he was first promoted in June, thats how i directly interpreted the quote to be saying...I agree it doesnt make sense, but i don't think we were going to be using a 4-3-3 this year, we just aren't built that way

v00d00daddy
08-11-2012, 09:44 AM
if you are quoting what he said when he was first promoted in June, thats how i directly interpreted the quote to be saying...I agree it doesnt make sense, but i don't think we were going to be using a 4-3-3 this year, we just aren't built that way

And that's just it.

Who built the team?
Who was charged, two years ago, to build a team to play the possession based 4-3-3?

Mariner was definitely involved in that.

It remains a grey area because nobody knows who did what and who had the power to impose their will on player acquisition.

But now we certainly know who is doing it. And look at the type of game and players he wants.

The exact opposite of the plan 2 years ago.

To me, that's one of two things:

-Mariner was incapable of getting the right players which would deem him incompetent at his job

or

-Mariner had no intention of towing the company line two years ago and disagreed with the new vision of the club and did his best (whether by omission or commission) to get what he wanted.

Either way there is no reason for me to be happy with him.

It's shocking that people are okay with this.

4 wins be damned. Those who defend him by saying "results are all that matter" may as well not even watch games. If that's all you care about then open the paper the day after the game, read the score, and make your decision.

jabbronies
08-11-2012, 10:45 AM
Mariner was a poor choice for manager. It was a shit move by MLSE. Bringing him on as first team manager is very questionable.
A manager who is only really familiar with a 4-4-2 coming in to manage a first team who's long term goals are to play a possesion style 4-3-3 doesn't seem logical to me. Maybe you guys see it differently, but I don't know how he can transition a team into 4-3-3 style. He has never played it, he has never managed it, nothing about his career as a player or a manager suggests he was exposed to implementing and/or maintaining such a playing style...does anyone know if he was an assistant somewhere that played that style?

The reason I was on the Winter bandwagon was because the season was already over at 0-9.
There was no point to the long term future in bringing in another manager mid season for one reason and one reason only - MLSE are not crafty enough to have the smarts to have another possession based manager lined up so quickly into the MLS season - and they didn't. So now we have Mariner in the gaffers chair at the end of the season - what do we do when we fail to make the playoffs yet again? sack him? go through another change? or do we start to transition the whole club away from the possession based game? I can see MLSE go with the latter as it easier to do under the radar of the media and fans.

I hope everyone is happy with a random result here and there and no playoffs. At the rate this team is moving, that's all we're going to get. The best teams in MLS are improving with a more skilled version of football; We can only win so many "Ugly games". Better teams will exploit this lame tactic left right and centre - that is a fact.

gomesv
08-11-2012, 10:46 AM
Who built the team?


Mariner was definitely involved in that.

It remains a grey area because nobody knows who did what


-Mariner was incapable of getting the right players which would deem him incompetent at his job



Its not that grey of an area.....from what I've been told, Winter identified position players he needed and it was Mariner's job to secure said players. As far as I'm concerned Mariner is just as responsible If not more for this teams failure....

Super
08-11-2012, 11:18 AM
Check this list of TFC coaches:

Mo Johnston (15 games as head coach for NYRB - extremely poor record. Fired)
John Carver (Very little head coaching experience. Caretaker at Leeds for a short while, ended in disaster. Replaced)
Chris Cummins (No head coaching experience)
Preki (3 seasons as head coach for Chivas. Made the play-offs every year, but lost in first round each time. Bad reputation.)
Nick Dasovic (No head coaching experience)
Aron Winter (No head coaching experience)
Paul Mariner (little head coaching experience with Plymouth Argule - who got relegated under Mariner. Replaced)

One ONE of the above 7 coaches have proper 1st team head coaching experience: Preki. In fact, he's the only coach that we've ever had that actually deserved the job. However, he had a pretty bad reputation and we should've passed on him based on that.

The above is a MASSIVE explanation as to why we've been shit for 6 full seasons. MASSIVE! Next head coach BETTER have PROPER and SIGNIFICANT 1st team head coaching experience, or I'm officially done with this club.

Thomas
08-11-2012, 11:20 AM
It's to easy to frame this as either for or against Mariner. I'm just trying to say that he hasn't been in the driver's seat long enough to draw a definitive conclusion as to whether he has any future here or not.


If it's uncivil for him to be rude, it's uncivil for you to, as he suggests, pretend you don't understand the opposition. Not agreeing with long-standing arguments is a far sight from knowing they don't exist, and just as disrespectful of their position as he was being of yours.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, there's a little truth on both sides of this debate, but people are simply sticking to Winter v. Mariner

It's not even the same argument throughout. The people arguing against Mariner aren't arguing he's worse than Winter. They're arguing that he contributed to Winter's bad tenure and hasn't done as well as they'd like, and does not look like a coach for the future.

The pro people are arguing his results are slightly better and his player picks are strong.

So really, these are positions separated by a fairly fine line. And yet everyone seems intent on winning a fight online.

jloome
08-11-2012, 11:40 AM
It's to easy to frame this as either for or against Mariner. I'm just trying to say that he hasn't been in the driver's seat long enough to draw a definitive conclusion as to whether he has any future here or not.

A healthy and logical conclusion, but not one that seems shared by many.

Jabbronies, he worked under multiple formations at New England including the 4-4-3 and the 5-3-2, so he's familiar with those types of systems.

I don't appreciate his tactical approach so far, but I do like his motivational skills.

narduch
08-11-2012, 11:51 AM
I'm just trying to say that he hasn't been in the driver's seat long enough to draw a definitive conclusion as to whether he has any future here or not.

I think he can be judged on this transfer window, and in my opinion the future doesn't bode well for this club if Mariner remains in charge.

In league play the results are going to be skewed anyways because this team has nothing to play for.


The above is a MASSIVE explanation as to why we've been shit for 6 full seasons. MASSIVE! Next head coach BETTER have PROPER and SIGNIFICANT 1st team head coaching experience, or I'm officially done with this club.

I agree with your post 100 percent.

Don't forget that in the aftermath of the Preki firing, Tom Anselmi stood in front of the fans at the town hall meetings and promised us the BEST FRONT OFFICE IN MLS. Fast forward two years and we have nothing even close to resembling that. In fact I'd argue that we have the worst (or at the very least one of the worst) from top to bottom.

I really do worry about the future of this club. I hope Bell/Rogers can clean up this mess.

Whoop
08-11-2012, 11:57 AM
Why is anybody who is anti-Mariner labeled at pro-Winter? I am anti both of them. None of them seem to have any flexibility.

This. To me.

Winter was a poor coach, poor motivator. So he was the wrong man for the job.

Mariner, while a better motivator it appears, has a dismal record in acquiring players and don't see him as a long term solution for the club.

But he got his extension, just like Mo, so we're stuck with him for a while.

Richard
08-11-2012, 12:08 PM
Check this list of TFC coaches:

Mo Johnston (15 games as head coach for NYRB - extremely poor record. Fired)
John Carver (Very little head coaching experience. Caretaker at Leeds for a short while, ended in disaster. Replaced)
Chris Cummins (No head coaching experience)
Preki (3 seasons as head coach for Chivas. Made the play-offs every year, but lost in first round each time. Bad reputation.)
Nick Dasovic (No head coaching experience)
Aron Winter (No head coaching experience)
Paul Mariner (little head coaching experience with Plymouth Argule - who got relegated under Mariner. Replaced)

One ONE of the above 7 coaches have proper 1st team head coaching experience: Preki. In fact, he's the only coach that we've ever had that actually deserved the job. However, he had a pretty bad reputation and we should've passed on him based on that.

The above is a MASSIVE explanation as to why we've been shit for 6 full seasons. MASSIVE! Next head coach BETTER have PROPER and SIGNIFICANT 1st team head coaching experience, or I'm officially done with this club.

Im in the same boat as you, at the end of the day they may spend money but for some reason cant get someone with experiance?

Going forward we are really going to struggle and get the individual we seek, mainly because like many have said they have no support from the top.

Richard
08-11-2012, 12:12 PM
This. To me.

Winter was a poor coach, poor motivator. So he was the wrong man for the job.

Mariner, while a better motivator it appears, has a dismal record in acquiring players and don't see him as a long term solution for the club.

But he got his extension, just like Mo, so we're stuck with him for a while.

Why is this not public knowledge, this ticks me off the most. I dont think i have heard any of the media talk about this and its disturbing, making such a commitment with new ownership comming is just insane unless thats the point.

narduch
08-11-2012, 12:20 PM
Why is this not public knowledge, this ticks me off the most. I dont think i have heard any of the media talk about this and its disturbing, making such a commitment with new ownership comming is just insane unless thats the point.

Anywhere else the story of Mariner getting a 3-year extension would be a scandal. In Toronto its a passing comment in one blog post. But it is a classic example of the shit show TFC's FO is. What did Mariner do to earn it?

Its classic MLSE though. Just like Brian Burke giving Ron Wilson an extension and firing him months later.

The move shows that Anselmi wants to keep Mariner beyond this year. I just wonder how the club can sell Mariner during ticket renewals. The results haven't been THAT good (we've gone from worst team in the world to mediocre now).

v00d00daddy
08-11-2012, 12:26 PM
It's to easy to frame this as either for or against Mariner. I'm just trying to say that he hasn't been in the driver's seat long enough to draw a definitive conclusion as to whether he has any future here or not.


A healthy and logical conclusion, but not one that seems shared by many.

It's logical only if you see Mariners appointment to head coach as one coming off of a clean slate

If Mariner had nothing to do with this club for the last two years and was hired to replace Winter I'd agree that it's far too early to be overly critical or decide whether or not he has a future here.

But that simply is not the case.

It's as if some people wiped the past clean once he was appointed. It makes no sense. He was a part of the problem before. There is no denying that. In what world does it makes sense that he be the solution now?

For the record...I see no point in firing him now either. I don't think he ever should have been promoted but what's done is done.

I'm more concerned with what this off season holds and what the plans are for the future of this club

And if the talk about a 3 year extension offered to Mariner PRIOR to Winter being fired...and Mariner's presence at training sessions while Winter was still coach to "help out" is true that I can say with confidence that Mariner is a snake and the TFC FO is more fucked up than I thought (which is a lot lol)

I know...those are big IF's so I'm willing to wait and see if we learn any more about the "extension"

tfc2008
08-11-2012, 12:52 PM
The problem here in Toronto with coaches is, you can put the best coach in the world for this group and still it dont be good.
No one coach by name like to come here,Aron was stuppid to come to a city that nothing know about soccer and be happy you still have PM.

Huyton
08-11-2012, 01:01 PM
Who built the team?


Mariner was definitely involved in that.

It remains a grey area because nobody knows who did what


-Mariner was incapable of getting the right players which would deem him incompetent at his job



Its not that grey of an area.....from what I've been told, Winter identified position players he needed and it was Mariner's job to secure said players. As far as I'm concerned Mariner is just as responsible If not more for this teams failure....

Might it be possible that Mariner kept providing Winter with options, but with only experience of being the coach of the 2nd youth team at Ajax, Aron did not have the experience to truly determine whether a player would fit or not? The number of players that came in last year to play a game, or part of one, indicates to me that Winter was not good at judging talent.

Pookie
08-11-2012, 01:37 PM
Personally, I already see a TFC that is more consistently competitive at home than they've been in two years and actually has a chance of occasionally winning on the road. That's a step forward and constitutes success in my eyes. I don't care if that's achieved playing tactically simpler football* or makes our stats look unimpressive because I don't think either of those things prevents us from moving towards a more sophisticated style once results are stabilized and we've got an actual team capable of playing good football. Being a good team was always going to be a multi-year project but there's no need to be horrible in the interim.


I bring this point up as an example of what I think can get discussions off the rails. This position is not grounded in any objective measure yet is stated as matter of fact conclusion.

To be more specific, let's look at being "more competitive at home in the last two years" and therefore constituting a success?

Point 1 - Competitive @ Home in last two years

Mariner (2012 Home Record) 2-1-2
Winter (Post - July Transfer Window Home Record) 2-1-3
Preki (2010 April - August Home Record) 6-0-4

Not even close to being "more competitive at home" relative to our last 2 seasons.

Point 2 - constituting success

Neither Preki nor Winter were able to translate short stretches (10 and 6 games respective) into anything sustainable. Nor has any coach over our history been able to turn a good start into a consistently strong finish. The jury is clearly still out on the correlation to long term "success" vs results over the short term.

v00d00daddy
08-11-2012, 02:09 PM
Might it be possible that Mariner kept providing Winter with options, but with only experience of being the coach of the 2nd youth team at Ajax, Aron did not have the experience to truly determine whether a player would fit or not? The number of players that came in last year to play a game, or part of one, indicates to me that Winter was not good at judging talent.


Maybe...but it's a HUGE stretch to suggest that Mariner was providing Winter with all sorts of great players perfectly suited for the 4-3-3.

Might it be? Yes it might.

Might it be that you're looking for a reason to back up Mariner's performance as a the GM (for lack of a better word) because you like him as a coach?

Winter, Mariner, Cochrane and the players were all responsible for the 0-9 start. One of the first three was let go and several players were let go too.

That's utter horseshit and no amount of wins against shitty competition is going to change my mind of that.

Also...I don't give a shit about Winter. His firing was totally understandable. But if you're going to belittle his ability to judge good talent then please tell me what in Mariners past indicates that he's good at finding talent.

Where did he prove that he was the guy to identify talent suited to play a possession based game in MLS. What in his past lets you even remotely think that he "kept providing Winter with options"

Was it as an assistant in NE or as head coach at Plymouth? LOL

Oldtimer
08-11-2012, 02:25 PM
Why is anybody who is anti-Mariner labeled at pro-Winter? I am anti both of them. None of them seem to have any flexibility. I'm in the same boat as you, don't like either of them.

BHTC Mike
08-11-2012, 02:36 PM
at the end of the day they may spend money but for some reason cant get someone with experiance?
Because this is a young league that just went through a 9 team expansion, nearly doubling in size, in 7 years. There really aren't many of those people out there who don't already have jobs or serious baggage (like Rongen, Preki, and Mo). Look around this league, look at what has been successful for the last decade, and you'll find that taking a chance on new unproven coaches is pretty much how you do business in MLS most of the time. It's the same as I said upthread about players.

Top to bottom:

San Jose - Yallop; experienced MLS Cup winner but was coming off a bad spell at LA and Canada, was considered risky for a long time, took a while to come good again
Salt Lake - Kreis; totally inexperienced before his appointment without any time as an assistant, lots of experience in MLS as a player though
New York - Backe; highly experienced foreign coach, has done well but is still complained about vociferously by his own fans
Houston - Kinnear; no head coach experience before inheriting Yallop's cup winning San Jose side, lots of experience in MLS/NA as a player and assistant
Kansas City - Vermes; no head coach experience before moving down from Technical Director position to take over the team, lots of experience in MLS as a player
Seattle - Schmid; highly experienced MLS Cup winner with a deep resume in NA soccer, was a total coup for Seattle to lure him away from Columbus
DC United - Olsen; no head coach experience before his appointment with minimal time as an assistant, lots of experience in MLS as a player
Chicago - Klopas; minimal head coach experience in INDOOR soccer before moving down from the Technical Director, lots of experince in MLS/NA as a player
Vancouver - Rennie; no MLS head coach experience, a very good record as an upcoming young head coach in lower tier NA soccer
Los Angeles - Arena; highly experienced MLS Cup winner with a deep resume in NA soccer, was coming off a middling run in New York prior
Montreal - Marsch; no head coach experience before his appointment with minimal time as an assistant in US nat team set up, very experienced in MLS as a player
Columbus - Warzycha; no head coach experience before his appointment, extensive experience in MLS as a player and assistant
Chivas - Fraser; no head coach experience before his appointment but reasonable experience as an assistant, extensive experience in MLS as a player
Colorado - Pareja; no head coach experience before his appointment, extensive experience in MLS as a player and assistant
New England - Heaps; totally inexperienced before his appointment without any time as an assistant, very experienced in MLS as a player
Dallas - Hyndman; no professional head coach experience, extensive head coach experience in American collegiate soccer (similar to Arena and Schmid's prior to MLS)
Philly - Hackworth (interim); no professional head coach experience, some collegiate and youth head coach experience, minimal assistant coach experience in MLS
Portland - Wilkinson (interim); no MLS head coach experience, reasonable USL head coach and assistant coach experience
Toronto - Mariner; no MLS head coach experience, minimal foreign head coach experience, extensive experience in MLS as an assistant

Notice a trend here? We fit right in with what the rest of the league is doing. 9 out of 19 with no head coach experience prior to their hire. Only 4 out of 19 with previous MLS head coach experience.

Would Bob Bradley be nice? Sure, but he's got bigger ambitions (and doesn't have a reputation for pretty football either). Would luring a Kinnear, Arena, or Schmid be nice? Sure, but try convincing me that's possible. Yallop never would have got the time he was given in San Jose here. Maybe we could get Gary Smith back to North America... but the peanut gallery would surely proclaim him too backwards tactically.

Paul Mariner is exactly the sort of guy MLS teams are giving a chance to. There's no guarantees with any appointment - you could end up with a Martin Vasquez! - but he's been given the reins and is doing good enough already that, short of a complete implosion in our last 12 games, he should have an off season to build his team and get them playing the way he wants.

Recently fired head coaches include guys like De Los Cobos and Nowak who both had head coach experience. The only guys who were even moderately successful before being fired were Nowak, John Spencer, and Gary Smith. The lesson should be that, right now, MLS experience as a player, assistant, or head coach gives you a better chance at success than foreign head coach experience. Short of that, it's best to go with someone from the North American collegiate or professional pyramid. Hans Backe is literally the ONLY current example of going outside the North American pyramid for a head coach and having it work. Since there's not many available people with experience as successful MLS head coaches teams are forced to give someone new a chance. And the coaches who come in with grand pronouncements about playing "better" technical football like Vasquez, De Los Cobos, Pareja*, and Winter have the highest flameout rate and tend to make their teams worse.

But here's the real kicker:

ARON WINTER; NO senior head coach experience, NO experience of NA/MLS as a player or assistant

But he gets the keys for a year and a bit and the chance to overhaul our whole club from top to bottom and loyalty even in the face of historic failure and BAD FOOTBALL? Why? Because Jurgen Klinsmann says so? Because Tom A and the board got the results back from a marketing survey where our "educated fan base" (who know shit fuck all about the rest of the league) decided that they'd rather lose beautifully than win ugly? Because we have a fan base who still look towards Europe for answers rather than inside their own league?

And now, after 13 games in charge where he's won more than he's lost, only lost one home game, and won more away league games than Aron Winter EVER did there's already a drum beat for Paul Mariner's removal? All because it's not pretty enough? Not part of a (MARKETING DRIVEN and INORGANIC) "master plan" devised poolside in LA? Because some people have decided that they have a magical ability to see the future and current results are some sort of illusion? Because every bad signing or trade of the Winter era surely had to be Mariner's fault rather than the fault of the guy he was subordinate to or the fault of a truly illusionary and overambitious plan?

This is Alice in Wonderland shit. Seriously. I hope Exiled is enjoying his time away from the boards and laughing profusely when he lurks (like I used to) because he'd be losing his mind if he still participated in this forum.

*Jury's still out on him. But apparently our win over Colorado doesn't count because they're now "creampuffs" since ditching Smith's ugly football.

p.s. Houston lost 2-0 last night in NY. They better fire Kinnear.

v00d00daddy
08-11-2012, 02:56 PM
^^^^

Why are you comparing him to Winter?

Winter deserved to be fired.

How can you (someone I assume follows the league a hell of a lot more than most...me for sure) not attribute any fault or blame to Mariner in his job as the man tasked to get us players while Winter was coach?

It's obvious that you hated the "poolside devised" plan of attractive, possession based, attacking football. To each their own. But please don't mistake your greater knowledge of this league as anything close to objectivity. What does your knowledge of this league have to do with the brand of football I want to see?

Also...for all your insight on this league...do you think Mariners current approach tactically, stylistically, and player acquisition wise, will lead to success in this league?

Will the way he wants to play and the type of players he's bringing in to play it translate to success?

Also...who was Mariner subordinate (in terms of signings and trades) to during the time that Winter was coach?

Do you know something about the how the dynamic between Winter, Mariner and Cochrane worked? If so...please share.

ensco
08-11-2012, 02:59 PM
^BHTC, whoever you are, that is one high quality rant!

Mostly bang on, too. I don't love Mariner, but I am sorta kinda impressed so far, by the results (imagine that as a criterion). Don't let the endless high school debaters get you down ... "what does your knowledge of MLS have to do with the kind of football I want to see?" is symptomatic of everything that is wrong here.

We are part of the problem, I have come to realize. We are getting the team we deserve.

v00d00daddy
08-11-2012, 03:16 PM
^BHTC, whoever you are, that is one high quality rant!

Mostly bang on, too. I don't love Mariner, but I am sorta kinda impressed so far, by the results (imagine that as a criterion). Don't let the endless high school debaters get you down ... "what does your knowledge of MLS have to do with the kind of football I want to see?" is symptomatic of everything that is wrong here.

We are part of the problem, I have come to realize. We are getting the team we deserve.

Wow. Name calling now?

Why don't you take a stab at answering my questions about Mariner that I posed to him?

As opposed to calling me a high schooler.

Why don't you go on record as to whether we will be successful with mariner and his current methods for getting results?

Do you also believe that the philosophy overhaul that TFC made was nothing but a smokeshow?

Cause if it was then I'm guilty and I'm a fish that took it hook line and sinker.

But I won't make that mistake again.

But if you guys wanna shit on people who want more than what we're getting that's your choice.

I fear you'll be doing it in a 1/4 full BMO field in a couple of years. If not sooner.

Because if they continue to give us ugly soccer and shitty results that's just what will happen.

denime
08-11-2012, 03:26 PM
:drinking: :lurk5:

:leaving:

Pookie
08-11-2012, 03:48 PM
Because this is a young league that just went through a 9 team expansion, nearly doubling in size, in 7 years. There really aren't many of those people out there who don't already have jobs or serious baggage (like Rongen, Preki, and Mo). Look around this league, look at what has been successful for the last decade, and you'll find that taking a chance on new unproven coaches is pretty much how you do business in MLS most of the time. It's the same as I said upthread about players.
...

And now, after 13 games in charge where he's won more than he's lost, only lost one home game, and won more away league games than Aron Winter EVER did there's already a drum beat for Paul Mariner's removal? All because it's not pretty enough? Not part of a (MARKETING DRIVEN and INORGANIC) "master plan" devised poolside in LA? Because some people have decided that they have a magical ability to see the future and current results are some sort of illusion? Because every bad signing or trade of the Winter era surely had to be Mariner's fault rather than the fault of the guy he was subordinate to or the fault of a truly illusionary and overambitious plan?

This is Alice in Wonderland shit. Seriously. I hope Exiled is enjoying his time away from the boards and laughing profusely when he lurks (like I used to) because he'd be losing his mind if he still participated in this forum...

So, this Mariner guy. He collected a pay cheque for 18 months under Winter... doing what?

Nothing apparently. Clean slate since he got the keys.

No one is saying it isn't pretty enough. But your grandiose statements of how improved we are at home... when Preki led the team to a 6-0-4 record 2 years ago.... are disingenuous at best.

Similarly, all this talk about possession and the fact that San Jose is winning without it ignores the fact that San Jose has a much stronger backline than Mariner has assembled.. sorry, he was just collecting a check to do nothing... than Winter assembled.

It isn't about Winter v Mariner. It's about whether Mariner can set a vision and has a better chance to succeed than Klinsmann's vision. It's about whether any of us are willing to overlook the organizational shortcomings inherent in this club (lack of scouting, reliance on Canadian players, etc) and put all our faith in the "next guy" to take the reigns. Many of us are tired of using hope as a strategy.

Sorry if that offends you.

Richard
08-11-2012, 03:49 PM
SNIP

You make some good points, but please dont tell me an organization has to go through 7+ coaches to find success(and 6 years of utter shit). Other teams find these individuals it seems on a dime(just like quality players), yet we cant get a competent group of individuals? You would think rolling the dice this many times would result in somthing other than "Snake eyes".

BHTC Mike
08-11-2012, 03:52 PM
I bring this point up as an example of what I think can get discussions off the rails. This position is not grounded in any objective measure yet is stated as matter of fact conclusion.
No, but it's a great example of your consistent inability to be intellectually honest and derail things with petty point making. You're not arguing with Roogsy anymore and now I see why he used to get so frustrated.

When I specifically offer "Personally, I [...] see" as a qualification that should be a pretty good indication that I'm offering a subjective evaluation that people are free to disagree with rather than "matter of fact conclusion". Not happy with simply overstating my position though you go on to extend the meaning of "constitutes success" by making it sound like I'm doing anything other than making a limited evaluation of the time Mariner's been in charge so far and instead proclaiming him successful long term already.

And for the record, the last two years is a specific reference to the post-Preki period since late summer 2010. Rather than getting hung up on pendantic bullshit like "technically Preki's home unbeaten streak lasted into August and the end of that (actually the weaker part IIRC) was in the calendar window of the last two years" you could take the more obvious reading. And the best part: I couldn't make it to either the Colorado or Houston wins so I literally did not see two of rare home league wins under Winter. Which is exactly what I said. I did see five straight home losses to start the season this year.


Point 1 - Competitive @ Home in last two years

Mariner (2012 Home Record) 2-1-2
Winter (Post - July Transfer Window Home Record) 2-1-3
Yes, you're right. If you cherry pick the one, brief stretch of decent league results Winter ever achieved, including some away draws and a win in Columbus too, it's more or less the same as Paul Mariner's entire tenure to date. But here's the thing: you complete overstate the argument people are making.

First, MOST PEOPLE CONSIDERED THAT STRETCH UNDER WINTER "GOOD ENOUGH" and weren't even contemplating his removal even AFTER a terrible spring and early summer. I didn't believe in "the plan", didn't think it was likely to be successful, and didn't have confidence in Winter. And I STILL THOUGHT he had to be given a chance and was satisfied with that stretch as a sign of progress. If he didn't lose nine straight league games he'd still have a job.

Second, NO ONE SERIOUS THINKS 4-4-4 UNDER MARINER IS "PROOF" HE'LL BE SUCCESSFUL IN THE FUTURE. No one can predict the future. Not you, not me, not anyone. All we can do is look backwards at the evidence we have. When it comes to the future all we can do is hope. I have more confidence in Mariner than I did in Winter but ultimately that's irrelevant; he'll be judged on the results he achieves.

I have 13 games to evaluate Paul Mariner on. In 13 games he's done "good enough" to enjoy my support just like, in his best 13 games, Aron Winter did even though he'd had longer to work with the team and achieved worse results overall.

It's called intellectual consistency. You should try it.


Point 2 - constituting success

Neither Preki nor Winter were able to translate short stretches (10 and 6 games respective) into anything sustainable. Nor has any coach over our history been able to turn a good start into a consistently strong finish. The jury is clearly still out on the correlation to long term "success" vs results over the short term.
Great. So let's evaluate Mariner on imaginary future results that haven't happened yet rather than waiting to see. Good luck with that.

Sorry dude, I'm out and back to lurking. I've seen where this goes. Have fun, you've won.

Oh and mods, I steadfastly refuse to apologize for "making this personal" when the inevitable complaint comes. Seeing your words intentionally misrepresented is far more deeply insulting and has consistently started the tit for tat bullshit that this would devolve into. I remove myself voluntarily.

Pookie
08-11-2012, 04:02 PM
^ are you not cherry picking Mariner's 2-1-2 record and then making grand conclusions about how improved the play is? Granted he's only been here 12 games but that is kind of the point isn't it? Too early to make conclusions?

The reality of the situation is that short term stretches haven't translated into any tangible success under ANY coach. Including Mariner who has dropped 2 straight after a decent start.

Pookie
08-11-2012, 04:16 PM
... or hey, let's look at how all coaches have been more consistently competitive at home:


2012 Mariner 2-1-2 1.6 PPG
2011 Winter 5-4-8 1.3 PPG
2010 Preki 6-3-6 or 1.6 PPG
2009 Carver-Cummins 8-3-4 1.8 PPG
2008 Carver 6-2-7 1.7 PPG
2007 Mo 5-7-3 1.2 PPG

Let's stop trying to feed the board shit and telling us it is steak. Mariner's results, over a much smaller swath of games is on par or worse than some of his predecessors. Marginally, it is slightly better than some.

If anything, we should bring Carver back... except of course he quit given this organizational structure.

ensco
08-11-2012, 04:44 PM
Wow. Name calling now?

Why don't you take a stab at answering my questions about Mariner that I posed to him?

Why don't you go on record as to whether we will be successful with mariner and his current methods for getting results?

Do you also believe that the philosophy overhaul that TFC made was nothing but a smokeshow?



So much sanctimonious certainty. Not just you, from a lot of others too.

Don't know the answer to your first two questions. Nobody else does, either.

As to the smokeshow, I said it at the time, the Ajax 4-3-3 stuff was a PR exercise that made zero sense to me, from Day 1. I have never ever bought into this formation/possession razzamatazz, you can look it up. Football is football. Making good passes, moving without the ball, talent that can't be reduced to simple algorhythms. That's all it ever is.

v00d00daddy
08-11-2012, 04:58 PM
So much sanctimonious certainty. Not just you, from a lot of others too.

Don't know the answer to your first two questions. Nobody else does, either.

As to the smokeshow, I said it at the time, the Ajax 4-3-3 stuff was a PR exercise that made zero sense to me, from Day 1. I have never ever bought into this formation/possession razzamatazz, you can look it up. Football is football. Making good passes, moving without the ball, talent that can't be reduced to simple algorhythms. That's all it ever is.

So your retort to what you consider "sanctimonious certainty" is to call me a high school debater? I may be a high schooler when it comes to debating but you're at the same level when it comes to talking to people.

As for the questions...nobody is asking for any definitive answers....just your opinion.

And I know that you didn't buy into the possession/formation business and that's fine. But those of us who did and continue to aren't right or wrong either. It's a matter of preference.

I'm not the kind of guy who cares only about the results. If I did I could just look up the box scores and go off of that to determine whether or not I'm happy with the direction of this club. Results are hugely important but when they become the only criteria to determine whether or not we are (or will continue to be) successful I think we miss the whole picture.

Pookie
08-11-2012, 05:01 PM
As to the smokeshow, I said it at the time, the Ajax 4-3-3 stuff was a PR exercise that made zero sense to me, from Day 1.

Made sense to the US Soccer Federation though and enough to mobilize the US development pyramid. But hey, Anselmi knows better to let Mariner decide his own direction.. right?

Beach_Red
08-11-2012, 05:01 PM
^BHTC, whoever you are, that is one high quality rant!

Mostly bang on, too. I don't love Mariner, but I am sorta kinda impressed so far, by the results (imagine that as a criterion). Don't let the endless high school debaters get you down ... "what does your knowledge of MLS have to do with the kind of football I want to see?" is symptomatic of everything that is wrong here.

We are part of the problem, I have come to realize. We are getting the team we deserve.

This is true. From the very beginning MLSE put out an inexperienced and understaffed FO and we never looked past the guy they propped up as a front. We bought the whole Klinsmann PR plan.

As I've said before this whole thing looks like the team owner in "Slapshot" telling Paul Newman how much she's enjoyed his exploits in the press, but this is business. We're as shocked now to have been played by MLSE as Newman was in Slapshot.

Beach_Red
08-11-2012, 05:03 PM
Made sense to the US Soccer Federation though and enough to mobilize the US development pyramid. But hey, Anselmi knows better to let Mariner decide his own direction.. right?

Are you really comparing the resources of the entire USA to MLSE and a few miles around Toronto?

Huyton
08-11-2012, 05:56 PM
Maybe...but it's a HUGE stretch to suggest that Mariner was providing Winter with all sorts of great players perfectly suited for the 4-3-3.

Might it be? Yes it might.

Might it be that you're looking for a reason to back up Mariner's performance as a the GM (for lack of a better word) because you like him as a coach?

Winter, Mariner, Cochrane and the players were all responsible for the 0-9 start. One of the first three was let go and several players were let go too.

That's utter horseshit and no amount of wins against shitty competition is going to change my mind of that.

Also...I don't give a shit about Winter. His firing was totally understandable. But if you're going to belittle his ability to judge good talent then please tell me what in Mariners past indicates that he's good at finding talent.

Where did he prove that he was the guy to identify talent suited to play a possession based game in MLS. What in his past lets you even remotely think that he "kept providing Winter with options"

Was it as an assistant in NE or as head coach at Plymouth? LOL

Actually...all I said was "Options", not "great players perfectly suited to playing a 4-3-3". I suspect that there just aren't that many available, at the price we could afford, to be able to stock a team in a year.

Part of the job of a coach is to produce a team - a symbiosis, as it were - where all the parts are doing their job.

The reason why I thought that Winter was being given options by Mariner was that last year reminded me of my wife shopping for shoes. She'll go through dozens of pairs looking for just that perfect pair, and a good portion of the time it's because she went shopping not looking for something to fulfill a specific need, but because she's not sure what she's looking for, and by trying everything, she's hoping the answer will come to her. I suspect that she occasionally buys a pair because she feels guilty about having wasted someones time.

That's the way the merry-go-round of players last year looked to me, anyway.

I was very disappointed that the Winter experiment failed as spectacularly as it did. I was really hoping for the sort of "sexy football" that one of Winters compatriots claimed he was going to provide in Newcastle.

I also hoped that "sexy football" was winning football.

Do I like Mariner as a coach? Not sure, actually...but I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Which is what I did with all his predecessors, too. I do like his ability to motivate the team. When he became Coach, he was asked what style of play he would use, and he said "Whatever works".

Ultimately, TFC needs to win because there aren't enough aficionados like yourself who are prepared to watch pretty, but losing, football while waiting for the team to get enough 443 players for a critical mass to be reached.

With all due respect,

Huyton

starter
08-11-2012, 06:08 PM
... As to the smokeshow, I said it at the time, the Ajax 4-3-3 stuff was a PR exercise that made zero sense to me, from Day 1. I have never ever bought into this formation/possession razzamatazz, you can look it up. Football is football. Making good passes, moving without the ball, talent that can't be reduced to simple algorhythms. That's all it ever is.

Perhaps one could look at 433 here as a framework to try to establish some sort of identity using some of the best practices available now. Yes, we may not had players at the moment ( thanks to PM, as well ), but we were moving there, with academy teams developing talent. The 'tweak' throws all this into disarray.
Now, what you suggest our identity will look like -- get players, that can pass the ball around? This is mechanics of the game, not the goal, not the whole product.

Pookie
08-11-2012, 06:32 PM
Are you really comparing the resources of the entire USA to MLSE and a few miles around Toronto?

Not sure I follow your question... I'm saying that Klinsmann plan was good enough to convince the USA that if it wanted to win, it needed to mobilize its developmental efforts towards the "Total Football" ideal. They bought it.

We had the same plan, saw 18 months worth of MLS results and said, well if Winter can't do it.. no one can.

Anselmi basically said:

Paul? Over here, bud. I know Winter isn't working out. He's still going to be the coach for a bit but here's a 3 year extension because you've done such a good job at acquiring (or not acquiring) players. Besides, you have an English accent and our research shows that our season ticket holders speak English. That's got to be good. Go down on the side lines, help him out, you know. In a few weeks though, it will be your team. Congratulations. You are the man. Do whatever you want. 4-4-2? I don't care. I'll be fucked if I know anything about this game. Just make sure that there are 11 men on the field, pitch, surface, whatever. Try to wear the white jersey's a little more often. We are having a hard time moving some of that excess merchandise. Oh, and Paul? If anyone asks, I only ever hired two coaches. Got it?

Beach_Red
08-11-2012, 06:51 PM
Not sure I follow your question... I'm saying that Klinsmann plan was good enough to convince the USA that if it wanted to win, it needed to mobilize its developmental efforts towards the "Total Football" ideal. They bought it.

We had the same plan, saw 18 months worth of MLS results and said, well if Winter can't do it.. no one can.

Anselmi basically said:

Paul? Over here, bud. I know Winter isn't working out. He's still going to be the coach for a bit but here's a 3 year extension because you've done such a good job at acquiring (or not acquiring) players. Besides, you have an English accent and our research shows that our season ticket holders speak English. That's got to be good. Go down on the side lines, help him out, you know. In a few weeks though, it will be your team. Congratulations. You are the man. Do whatever you want. 4-4-2? I don't care. I'll be fucked if I know anything about this game. Just make sure that there are 11 men on the field, pitch, surface, whatever. Try to wear the white jersey's a little more often. We are having a hard time moving some of that excess merchandise. Oh, and Paul? If anyone asks, I only ever hired two coaches. Got it?

Comparing a decision by US soccer to a decision by MLSE is kind of like comparing Hollywood to the Canadian movie business. It's simply operating on a different scale.

Maybe your Anselmi scenaro is exactly what happened, but it's also possible that when the consultant's report came in some people at MLSE hedged their bets - that's why Mariner was also hired. Who knows, maybe like most consultants' reports only a small part of it got implemented or maybe it didn't cover the full extent of the situation (it may have missed the, "can we sign the players we need for this with the domestic quoatas and salary caps?" part).

USA soccer have a pretty good idea where the players are going to come from - and they can take a longer view. Sure, some people on this board are willing to pay for season tickets year after year if they feel the team is headed in the right direction (progress over results, we heard often enough), but it's unlikely there are 14,000 people willing to buy those tickets for many more seasons.

ag futbol
08-11-2012, 06:52 PM
We are part of the problem, I have come to realize. We are getting the team we deserve.
I’m not so sure why you’d think that’s the case.

Supporters’ boards in general are not a good representation of fan behaviour and you can’t take that as a trigger for their actions. If you listen to the tone in town hall meetings or other such things, it’s much more moderate than the extreme bi-polar tone that’s set around here. Also, if they are getting over-sensitive with the feedback that’s on them, not us. Definitely not a sensible way to run a club, for obvious reasons.

Really, this team operates the way it does because it’s following a business model that’s brought MLSE profit. In the past, they’ve been able to focus on the operations side and just ignore what happens on the field because people still buy tickets. In some sense, you could put that down to dumb luck, established goodwill, or the previous strength of the corporate seat sales in Toronto (loosely spent $ hide a lot of sins). I’d argue it’s their neglect of on-field results that’s been the root source of our futility as opposed to fan angst.

It’s obvious that on a high level, winning does not mean anything to this club, which is the real problem. If they really had this at hart, I think it’s safe to say Anselmi and Berne would have been shown the door by now, along with a few other people. Do they explicitly not want to win? Of course not, but they put it down the list after a whole host of other things. Bad corporate structure, lack of accountability, and weak upper management team / club support staff, problems yes, but more like symptoms. The reasons why all these exist is because we haven’t prioritized results at a high enough level. If we did, these problems wouldn’t exist.

Edit: Sorry, I just want to add one last thing to underscore my last point. Seattle: if you listen to their management team talk they directly state that the malfeasance of other teams in the city provided them with incentive to create a winning franchise. Basically, they felt that because the fans were so jilted the team could really be financially successful by providing a quality product. My point: they take into account results at a high level, it seems to have cascaded down and actually happened. I think you could make similar arguments about other consistently successful MLS sides as well. They have something that makes them think about winning at a high level and that provides the fuel to make it happen. That’s what’s lacking here. And thus concludes my 2000 word essay.

Pookie
08-11-2012, 07:08 PM
Comparing a decision by US soccer to a decision by MLSE is kind of like comparing Hollywood to the Canadian movie business. It's simply operating on a different scale.

Maybe your Anselmi scenaro is exactly what happened, but it's also possible that when the consultant's report came in some people at MLSE hedged their bets - that's why Mariner was also hired. Who knows, maybe like most consultants' reports only a small part of it got implemented or maybe it didn't cover the full extent of the situation (it may have missed the, "can we sign the players we need for this with the domestic quoatas and salary caps?" part).

USA soccer have a pretty good idea where the players are going to come from - and they can take a longer view. Sure, some people on this board are willing to pay for season tickets year after year if they feel the team is headed in the right direction (progress over results, we heard often enough), but it's unlikely there are 14,000 people willing to buy those tickets for many more seasons.

The question of the day is whether that decision to buy is performance related or price related?

I tend to believe it is skewed towards a price decision. The price is simply too high to sustain long term support, regardless of the outcome of the game. If I'm wrong, God (or random chance) help us when it comes to pricing the tickets for a winning team.

If I'm right though and pricing is influencing demand, then the FO's focus on short term results to justify their ticket prices is but yet another mistake in their book of mistakes.

Beach_Red
08-11-2012, 07:40 PM
The question of the day is whether that decision to buy is performance related or price related?

I tend to believe it is skewed towards a price decision. The price is simply too high to sustain long term support, regardless of the outcome of the game. If I'm wrong, God (or random chance) help us when it comes to pricing the tickets for a winning team.

If I'm right though and pricing is influencing demand, then the FO's focus on short term results to justify their ticket prices is but yet another mistake in their book of mistakes.

Well, certainly for some people the decision is price related, regardless of performance. Fair enough. When it comes to performance it seems it depends a lot on the circumstances. Some people are willing to keep paying if they feel the team is headed in the right direction. Tere are other people on this board who will stop buying tickets even if the team wins because they don't like the style of play.

The Leafs sell out every game. The Argos, Jays and Raptors ticket sales depends on performance.

The consultant report and the talk about "culture" was the final straw for me to decide not renew my tickets. It wasn't just that the organization was obviously flailing and willing to say anything to sell tickets, I work in the "cultural industries" and am perhaps overly sensitive to (or very tired of) the idea of imported culture.

But there are probabably as many reasons for not buying tickets to TFC as there are people who have stopped buying them. It's really impossible to reduce it to an either/or of performance and price. I knew from the beginning that if TFC became hugely successful in Toronto I would be priced out of the stadium the same way I've been priced out of the ACC and out of a detatched house downtown. That's just life in Toronto.

tfcocd
08-11-2012, 09:12 PM
Because this is a young league that just went through a 9 team expansion, nearly doubling in size, in 7 years. There really aren't many of those people out there who don't already have jobs or serious baggage (like Rongen, Preki, and Mo). Look around this league, look at what has been successful for the last decade, and you'll find that taking a chance on new unproven coaches is pretty much how you do business in MLS most of the time. It's the same as I said upthread about players.

Top to bottom:

San Jose - Yallop; experienced MLS Cup winner but was coming off a bad spell at LA and Canada, was considered risky for a long time, took a while to come good again
Salt Lake - Kreis; totally inexperienced before his appointment without any time as an assistant, lots of experience in MLS as a player though
New York - Backe; highly experienced foreign coach, has done well but is still complained about vociferously by his own fans
Houston - Kinnear; no head coach experience before inheriting Yallop's cup winning San Jose side, lots of experience in MLS/NA as a player and assistant
Kansas City - Vermes; no head coach experience before moving down from Technical Director position to take over the team, lots of experience in MLS as a player
Seattle - Schmid; highly experienced MLS Cup winner with a deep resume in NA soccer, was a total coup for Seattle to lure him away from Columbus
DC United - Olsen; no head coach experience before his appointment with minimal time as an assistant, lots of experience in MLS as a player
Chicago - Klopas; minimal head coach experience in INDOOR soccer before moving down from the Technical Director, lots of experince in MLS/NA as a player
Vancouver - Rennie; no MLS head coach experience, a very good record as an upcoming young head coach in lower tier NA soccer
Los Angeles - Arena; highly experienced MLS Cup winner with a deep resume in NA soccer, was coming off a middling run in New York prior
Montreal - Marsch; no head coach experience before his appointment with minimal time as an assistant in US nat team set up, very experienced in MLS as a player
Columbus - Warzycha; no head coach experience before his appointment, extensive experience in MLS as a player and assistant
Chivas - Fraser; no head coach experience before his appointment but reasonable experience as an assistant, extensive experience in MLS as a player
Colorado - Pareja; no head coach experience before his appointment, extensive experience in MLS as a player and assistant
New England - Heaps; totally inexperienced before his appointment without any time as an assistant, very experienced in MLS as a player
Dallas - Hyndman; no professional head coach experience, extensive head coach experience in American collegiate soccer (similar to Arena and Schmid's prior to MLS)
Philly - Hackworth (interim); no professional head coach experience, some collegiate and youth head coach experience, minimal assistant coach experience in MLS
Portland - Wilkinson (interim); no MLS head coach experience, reasonable USL head coach and assistant coach experience
Toronto - Mariner; no MLS head coach experience, minimal foreign head coach experience, extensive experience in MLS as an assistant

Notice a trend here? We fit right in with what the rest of the league is doing. 9 out of 19 with no head coach experience prior to their hire. Only 4 out of 19 with previous MLS head coach experience.


This is an interesting list and it underscores the challenges that are faced with finding a new coach. Considering you can't spend much more than $150,000 - $200,000 on a starter your options for technically gifted, tactically astute players is similarly limited. You need to develop/find these players over time cheaply and make the best of it until then or deem that position worthy of DP money.

tfcocd
08-11-2012, 09:24 PM
Not sure I follow your question... I'm saying that Klinsmann plan was good enough to convince the USA that if it wanted to win, it needed to mobilize its developmental efforts towards the "Total Football" ideal. They bought it.

We had the same plan, saw 18 months worth of MLS results and said, well if Winter can't do it.. no one can.


When you start a season with 9 straight losses tweaking the approach is not likely to change the outcome. If the USA national team crashed out of the World Cup qualifiers don't you think they would start considering a different direction? The comparison between a US team whose starting 11 would command 30 or $40,000,000 on the market vs TFC roster that might be 1/10th of that quality is really hard to evaluate. The US team can probably adapt and play any style that you like whereas, clearly this is not the case for TFC who needs a simple style to get by. The hope for me is that Mariner has the 'know how' to make simple tactics effective. We will find out, and for me that is the intrigue of TFC for this season.

Huyton
08-11-2012, 09:39 PM
Just curious...do NFL coaches tend to come from the collegiate ranks? Should MLS teams be looking there for coaches experienced with North American players?

ensco
08-12-2012, 03:26 AM
I’m not so sure why you’d think that’s the case.

Supporters’ boards in general are not a good representation of fan behaviour and you can’t take that as a trigger for their actions. If you listen to the tone in town hall meetings or other such things, it’s much more moderate than the extreme bi-polar tone that’s set around here. Also, if they are getting over-sensitive with the feedback that’s on them, not us. Definitely not a sensible way to run a club, for obvious reasons.

Really, this team operates the way it does because it’s following a business model that’s brought MLSE profit. In the past, they’ve been able to focus on the operations side and just ignore what happens on the field because people still buy tickets. In some sense, you could put that down to dumb luck, established goodwill, or the previous strength of the corporate seat sales in Toronto (loosely spent $ hide a lot of sins). I’d argue it’s their neglect of on-field results that’s been the root source of our futility as opposed to fan angst.

It’s obvious that on a high level, winning does not mean anything to this club, which is the real problem. If they really had this at hart, I think it’s safe to say Anselmi and Berne would have been shown the door by now, along with a few other people. Do they explicitly not want to win? Of course not, but they put it down the list after a whole host of other things. Bad corporate structure, lack of accountability, and weak upper management team / club support staff, problems yes, but more like symptoms. The reasons why all these exist is because we haven’t prioritized results at a high enough level. If we did, these problems wouldn’t exist.

Edit: Sorry, I just want to add one last thing to underscore my last point. Seattle: if you listen to their management team talk they directly state that the malfeasance of other teams in the city provided them with incentive to create a winning franchise. Basically, they felt that because the fans were so jilted the team could really be financially successful by providing a quality product. My point: they take into account results at a high level, it seems to have cascaded down and actually happened. I think you could make similar arguments about other consistently successful MLS sides as well. They have something that makes them think about winning at a high level and that provides the fuel to make it happen. That’s what’s lacking here. And thus concludes my 2000 word essay.

A lot there that I agree with. But I think this particular board is more influential on this particular team than you suggest. In support of this I would point out that:

- the push for grass happened here
- the unbelievable player turnover rate is directly a result of the epic savaging all players inevitably get here. So it's in part related to "making us happy".
- the JDG signing was hugely popular here, once it was floated it became an obsession on this board (I plead guilty), and nothing screwed the franchise up more than that single move
- a substantial majority of the fanbase has bought into every version of the vision (young Canadians, the Ajax stuff, UK imports - versions 1 and 2) without any more than a small minority ever pointing out that we keep trying to invent MLS, instead of doing what has been shown to work. If O'Dea is making 3x what Bernandez is, we need to remember that, as always, his signing passed without much comment here.

narduch
08-12-2012, 06:54 AM
But even if you believe that the club makes decisions based on fan forum chatter, that still isn't the fans fault. That's all on management.

It wouldn't surprise me if that is how they operate though. Especially when you consider how much Paul Beirne spent on message boards the first few seasons, the town halls, the constant survey's etc.

Pookie
08-12-2012, 07:09 AM
When you start a season with 9 straight losses tweaking the approach is not likely to change the outcome. If the USA national team crashed out of the World Cup qualifiers don't you think they would start considering a different direction? The comparison between a US team whose starting 11 would command 30 or $40,000,000 on the market vs TFC roster that might be 1/10th of that quality is really hard to evaluate. The US team can probably adapt and play any style that you like whereas, clearly this is not the case for TFC who needs a simple style to get by. The hope for me is that Mariner has the 'know how' to make simple tactics effective. We will find out, and for me that is the intrigue of TFC for this season.

Oh, I think this is a fair point and if the US does not get results, I'm sure we'll see changes.

My point though is bigger than the style embraced by the USNMT. Since MLS is a development program for it, it too has embraced developing players in this mould. That includes Academies and First Teams. NCAA programs are on board as well. And Soccer clubs throughout the pyramid are mobilizing to support the plan. (they work quicker than our CSA does after all). While each may choose a different way to implement it, the goal is to have players thinking in a way that supports a possession based attacking system. They will be tactically sound, look for short passes and build from the back. They will learn to pressure high and to be in a position to exploit (in numbers) the results of that high pressure. They will also learn to cover for each other should a teammate press forward. And many, many coaches will be developed in this model.

That's where the "market" is going. And we were going there but are now are not. In essence, US Soccer + MLS + NCAA are going one way and putting their trust, belief and resources behind Klinsmann's "plan." We had it, decided Tom Anselmi knows better and let Paul Mariner decide the direction of the club. Surprisingly, knowing he was hired to help implement Klinsmann's plan and cashed his cheques while supporting it (?), he has gone back to what he knows. He has implemented "Forward First" football and has started to fill the roster with players that fit this model, change the emphasis of the Academy development and surround himself with coaches that can support the program.

I'm not sure about you but if I were betting as to which model might increase the club's chances of long term success and I had 2 options, one written by Jurgen Klinsmann and one written by Tom Anselmi (co-authored by Paul Mariner).... I'm pretty sure we all know which is going to be the safer bet.

Yohan
08-12-2012, 07:20 AM
Oh, I think this is a fair point and if the US does not get results, I'm sure we'll see changes.

My point though is bigger than the style embraced by the USNMT. Since MLS is a development program for it, it too has embraced developing players in this mould. That includes Academies and First Teams. NCAA programs are on board as well. And Soccer clubs throughout the pyramid are mobilizing to support the plan. (they work quicker than our CSA does after all). While each may choose a different way to implement it, the goal is to have players thinking in a way that supports a possession based attacking system. They will be tactically sound, look for short passes and build from the back. They will learn to pressure high and to be in a position to exploit (in numbers) the results of that high pressure. They will also learn to cover for each other should a teammate press forward. And many, many coaches will be developed in this model.

That's where the "market" is going. And we were going there but are now are not. In essence, US Soccer + MLS + NCAA are going one way and putting their trust, belief and resources behind Klinsmann's "plan." We had it, decided Tom Anselmi knows better and let Paul Mariner decide the direction of the club. Surprisingly, knowing he was hired to help implement Klinsmann's plan and cashed his cheques while supporting it (?), he has gone back to what he knows. He has implemented "Forward First" football and has started to fill the roster with players that fit this model, change the emphasis of the Academy development and surround himself with coaches that can support the program.

I'm not sure about you but if I were betting as to which model might increase the club's chances of long term success and I had 2 options, one written by Jurgen Klinsmann and one written by Tom Anselmi (co-authored by Paul Mariner).... I'm pretty sure we all know which is going to be the safer bet.

Klinsmann plan will start to see results likely from 10 yrs from now.

Beach_Red
08-12-2012, 07:24 AM
^ Pookie, the first part of this thread name is more important than the second. TFC has never done much more to acquire players than sign whoever is willing to come here for the terms they offer. When most of the US players coming into MLS play a certain style, that's the style TFC will play. The second part of the thread title is an easily interchangeable, temporary part of the team.

MLSE have never been ahead of the curve in anything they've done. They are solidly middle of the pack. And that's likely to continue even with new ownership.

Pookie
08-12-2012, 08:16 AM
^ Pookie, the first part of this thread name is more important than the second. TFC has never done much more to acquire players than sign whoever is willing to come here for the terms they offer. When most of the US players coming into MLS play a certain style, that's the style TFC will play. The second part of the thread title is an easily interchangeable, temporary part of the team.

MLSE have never been ahead of the curve in anything they've done. They are solidly middle of the pack. And that's likely to continue even with new ownership.

It's a good point except that when it comes to player acquisition, in particular US player acquisition, we are not in a strong position to bring those assets in. Particularly in the numbers and along a time line that will move us forward.

When we hit the 2014 MLS Superdraft, TFC will have traded it's 1st round selection 3 times in 5 seasons. In fact, under Mariner, we have traded 2 Superdraft picks thus far. The biggest one was for Hassli, a player that Vancouver soured on because of their 4-3-3 and the fact he couldn't run to support that.

To get these US players that can change our game, you either have to:

- pick them up on waivers - which usually is equivalent to shopping through someone else's garbage. While it may fetch a hidden gem, those are few and far between

- trade for them - considering the MLS Roster Rules limitations on Canadian players and the fact we stock about 1/3 of our roster with Canucks, we'd have to have some exceptional CDN talent for them to take up an International Roster spot. Not impossible but certainly not easy

- draft them - each time we give up a Superdraft pick we are giving up our access into the US talent pool

Not to mention the fact that you'd need a robust scouting network to guide your decisions with each of these routes. Something we do not have.

Trading for Hassli and paying the price we did, sets the future team back. And the willingness of the organization to part with other Superdraft picks highlights the difficulties that this middle of the pack team will have in taking advantage of the US movement.

Huyton
08-12-2012, 10:03 AM
Here's a radical thought...while the US is madly rushing off to 443, there will be all sorts of players who will be available at a reasonable price. Maybe TFC can pick up the best 442 players and supplement them with a couple of top quality DP's.

Will a team of the best 442 players in North America beat a team composed of mediocre 443's? I think so.

Klinsmanns plan for TFC made sense when few other teams were looking for 443 players. In a 442 league dedicated to parity, it made sense that you wanted the best players you could get, or develop, who could play it.

In a 443 league dedicated to parity, perhaps you should be looking to be a haven for 442 players.

Fort York Redcoat
08-12-2012, 10:40 AM
Oh, I think this is a fair point and if the US does not get results, I'm sure we'll see changes.

My point though is bigger than the style embraced by the USNMT. Since MLS is a development program for it, it too has embraced developing players in this mould. That includes Academies and First Teams. NCAA programs are on board as well. And Soccer clubs throughout the pyramid are mobilizing to support the plan. (they work quicker than our CSA does after all). While each may choose a different way to implement it, the goal is to have players thinking in a way that supports a possession based attacking system. They will be tactically sound, look for short passes and build from the back. They will learn to pressure high and to be in a position to exploit (in numbers) the results of that high pressure. They will also learn to cover for each other should a teammate press forward. And many, many coaches will be developed in this model.

That's where the "market" is going. And we were going there but are now are not. In essence, US Soccer + MLS + NCAA are going one way and putting their trust, belief and resources behind Klinsmann's "plan." We had it, decided Tom Anselmi knows better and let Paul Mariner decide the direction of the club. Surprisingly, knowing he was hired to help implement Klinsmann's plan and cashed his cheques while supporting it (?), he has gone back to what he knows. He has implemented "Forward First" football and has started to fill the roster with players that fit this model, change the emphasis of the Academy development and surround himself with coaches that can support the program.

I'm not sure about you but if I were betting as to which model might increase the club's chances of long term success and I had 2 options, one written by Jurgen Klinsmann and one written by Tom Anselmi (co-authored by Paul Mariner).... I'm pretty sure we all know which is going to be the safer bet.

I think you're being extremely generous when calling Anselmi's actions a "model" he adopted or ot even spent a thought on other than giving the reins to Mariner. It was a very simple reaction that was a sacrifice for the short term. One aspect of a short term model is that if it bears fruit as it has done to an extent, it 's no real sacrifice to try and develop/ re-install a former model that didn't have the proper pieces/ aquisitions made to realize it.

Is there much talk of a present model that's been installed to replace the one sold to us at the beginning of the year? I thought the model that we say was abandoned is one that they say they've "tweaked"? Even the worst case scenario of abandoning the future by forgetting the model could be remedied by getting the results now, as they have done, to look mediocre by end of year and they could just as easily try to re implement facets of the initial model they spent so much to acquire.

It's not like they we're saying they physically threw out the notebook they paid for, are we?

Canary10
08-12-2012, 10:47 AM
For those saying Mariner's results are good, he's averaging 1.3 points per game. That would be good for 7th place in the eastern conference and 14th overall. Decent results are subjective, but is that really decent? Can't say Vancouver is too worried about getting a shit draft pick in '14 at the moment.

The thing that makes me most mad is that the team made a concerted decision to play a certain kind of soccer, then did a complete 180 from it only a year in. All the good teams in the world, regardless of the league, have a philosophy about how the play, and this includes MLS teams too. Is it too much to ask that when we decided that, that we stick to it? That is the team's problem over 6 years. As a result we go from extremes of playing styles without ever doing any of them properly.

Beach_Red
08-12-2012, 11:09 AM
I think you're being extremely generous when calling Anselmi's actions a "model" he adopted or ot even spent a thought on other than giving the reins to Mariner. It was a very simple reaction that was a sacrifice for the short term. One aspect of a short term model is that if it bears fruit as it has done to an extent, it 's no real sacrifice to try and develop/ re-install a former model that didn't have the proper pieces/ aquisitions made to realize it.

Is there much talk of a present model that's been installed to replace the one sold to us at the beginning of the year? I thought the model that we say was abandoned is one that they say they've "tweaked"? Even the worst case scenario of abandoning the future by forgetting the model could be remedied by getting the results now, as they have done, to look mediocre by end of year and they could just as easily try to re implement facets of the initial model they spent so much to acquire.

It's not like they we're saying they physically threw out the notebook they paid for, are we?

If the notebook said it would take 4-5 years for the model to work (and even then depend on how development of US players progressed) then, yes, we've thrown out the notebook. My guess is there was very little in it about player acquisition and without that the "vision" is pretty much the same one almost every other team in MLS figured out on their own and will come to pass rather naturally if that's the direction US soccer goes. This is a US development league, afterall.

Pookie's point about the Hassli deal is a good one, though, and says a lot about the structure of TFC. Sure Mariner got a three year contract but his performance will get reviewed at regular intervals (as any big company employee's is) and he needs to show progress. And after all the talk of progress the past season and a half, chances are it's almost a dirty word in the boardroom.

These are the realities whoever is running the team has to deal with. We talk about player signings as if it's shopping and we talk about running the team as if there are no other agendas and in-fighting at the organization. Everytime a plan is floated, we need to consider what actually needs to be done to see it through at TFC, not in some theoretical situation.

tfcocd
08-12-2012, 09:22 PM
Oh, I think this is a fair point and if the US does not get results, I'm sure we'll see changes.

My point though is bigger than the style embraced by the USNMT. Since MLS is a development program for it, it too has embraced developing players in this mould. That includes Academies and First Teams. NCAA programs are on board as well. And Soccer clubs throughout the pyramid are mobilizing to support the plan. (they work quicker than our CSA does after all). While each may choose a different way to implement it, the goal is to have players thinking in a way that supports a possession based attacking system. They will be tactically sound, look for short passes and build from the back. They will learn to pressure high and to be in a position to exploit (in numbers) the results of that high pressure. They will also learn to cover for each other should a teammate press forward. And many, many coaches will be developed in this model.

That's where the "market" is going. And we were going there but are now are not. In essence, US Soccer + MLS + NCAA are going one way and putting their trust, belief and resources behind Klinsmann's "plan." We had it, decided Tom Anselmi knows better and let Paul Mariner decide the direction of the club. Surprisingly, knowing he was hired to help implement Klinsmann's plan and cashed his cheques while supporting it (?), he has gone back to what he knows. He has implemented "Forward First" football and has started to fill the roster with players that fit this model, change the emphasis of the Academy development and surround himself with coaches that can support the program.

I'm not sure about you but if I were betting as to which model might increase the club's chances of long term success and I had 2 options, one written by Jurgen Klinsmann and one written by Tom Anselmi (co-authored by Paul Mariner).... I'm pretty sure we all know which is going to be the safer bet.

I struggle with comparing USSF with TFC and think its more relevant to look at USSF vs CSA and how the Klinsmann plan develops versus CSA's long term development plan. There is no doubt the CSA has a lot of catching up to do as the infrastructure is still in the planning phase in Canada. Canadian Soccer + ?Domestic second division? + CIAU/CCAA has a long way to go to rival our neighbours as you have outlined!

Is there an MLS clubs vision/ plan that would be better to compare to TFC? Obvious measure is wins which is how we got into this mess in the first place. To check in on how the vision/ plan is working I think looking at how the academies perform at developing players to meet market demand would certainly be an indicator. TFC's investment in academy infrastructure was a step in the right direction. How well will they do in developing a profile for 12 year olds that consistently graduate into first team players is at least a 5 (10?) year question. There were some promising results with the latest U15 and U17 tournament. When I went to the coaching open house last year it was very interesting listening and watching BDK and Jason Bent lead the Academy boys through training and drills. It will be very interesting to see what the open house looks like this year with Rongen as director. As TFC continues to graduate players we will find out if they are meeting the market demand but and that is probably the first evidence we will have of whether the development plan is going in the right direction or not.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/toronto-fc/startseite/verein_11141.html (not sure how accurate this is, very interesting site though!)

Hopefully someone with better knowledge than me can compare another MLS team to this list:

Quillan: 100k
Henry: 125K
Morgan: 175K
Stinson: 175K
Cordon: 100K
Lindsay: 100k (not sure if he is ever playing again?)
Makubuya: 100K

Wonder how Pasher will rate?

ensco
08-13-2012, 02:24 AM
If you pound through the BS boards, as I have just done ... (be warned, this is 4 years of discussion) ... I think the idea that there is a bigtime "plan" on the part of the USSF to have the entire US youth system play "4-3-3" is just grandstanding. The plan exists, but there is not that much buy in.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/ussf-development-academy-in-depth.675164/
http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/ussf-development-academy-2-0.1920269/

Pookie
08-13-2012, 07:17 AM
I struggle with comparing USSF with TFC and think its more relevant to look at USSF vs CSA and how the Klinsmann plan develops versus CSA's long term development plan. There is no doubt the CSA has a lot of catching up to do as the infrastructure is still in the planning phase in Canada. Canadian Soccer + ?Domestic second division? + CIAU/CCAA has a long way to go to rival our neighbours as you have outlined!
...

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/toronto-fc/startseite/verein_11141.html (not sure how accurate this is, very interesting site though!)

Hopefully someone with better knowledge than me can compare another MLS team to this list:

Quillan: 100k
Henry: 125K
Morgan: 175K
Stinson: 175K
Cordon: 100K
Lindsay: 100k (not sure if he is ever playing again?)
Makubuya: 100K

Wonder how Pasher will rate?

I think it is relevant to compare the USSF with TFC in that if we lived a few miles south, one of TFC's primary mandates would be to develop players to feed the USSF. MLS is a developmental league after all. It makes it important, from a competitive standpoint, to be aware of what the 16 MLS clubs are doing.

I like your idea of player valuation. I think it falls short though when you consider some of the valuations you have posted. Oscar Cordon? 100k?

Even if someone where to sign this player to a deal of that size (read: mission impossible), the very nature of MLS Roster rules mean that Cordon takes an International Roster spot if he plays for any one of the 16 US based clubs. Cordon's value (and that of other Canadians) is therefore extremely limited and "market value" decreases immensely.

Pookie
08-13-2012, 07:21 AM
If you pound through the BS boards, as I have just done ... (be warned, this is 4 years of discussion) ... I think the idea that there is a bigtime "plan" on the part of the USSF to have the entire US youth system play "4-3-3" is just grandstanding. The plan exists, but there is not that much buy in.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/ussf-development-academy-in-depth.675164/
http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/ussf-development-academy-2-0.1920269/


I'm not so sure it's "grandstanding" when you consider what the MLS Academies are doing. That points to a direct and significant shift which will impact the league in which we play. As an example, this was from DC United prior to the start of 2012 season. See if you can spot the similarities to the plan Klinsmann gave us:
...

Known for its results, United's development system is now implementing a style of play that will transcend far beyond wins and losses.

"Everything we do in the academy, whether it is in training or on game day, has to do with the 4-3-3 element and Total Football," Under-16 coach Tom Torres said from his office in RFK Stadium. "Ball possession and high-paced wingers that are getting in behind the back line, there is no doubt that those influences are there."

The influence Torres refers to comes from the most successful youth program in the world, that of fabled Dutch side Ajax Amsterdam. United assistant coach Sonny Silooy played in over 250 matches for the legendary club and works hand in hand with D.C.'s academy coaches in creating a system aimed at producing future professionals. Instead of result-oriented play, academy practices revolve around the technical and mental aspects of attacking soccer, creating an environment where players are more likely to grow than their trophy collections....

http://www.dcunited.com/news/2012/03/uniteds-academy-takes-next-step (http://www.dcunited.com/news/2012/03/uniteds-academy-takes-next-step)

Or Sporting KC:

Sporting KC - " In keeping up with the mantra of copying the first team, all four Sporting KC Juniors sides implement the 4-3-3 system that Manager Peter Vermes uses for the senior squad. Both the U16s and the U18s have found success with the formation while playing in the Development Academy competition"

March 2011 - http://www.sportingkc.com/news/2011/03/academy-key-piece-sporting-kc-puzzle

Or on the link between MLS Academies and the US programs:

New York Red Bulls - "The Red Bulls Academy also provides an excellent example of the model of integration between the Development Academy and the Youth National Teams, successfully mixing players throughout the year in a bid to create a constant flow of talent from the Development Academy into the Youth National Teams and, eventually, the senior Men’s National Team."

http://www.ussoccer.com/news/development-academy/2012/07/new-york-red-bulls-academy-finding-success-sending-players-to-youth-national-teams.aspx

... examples are aplenty and the writing is on the wall (and in brochures) everywhere. That is where the US is going and their development pyramid, which includes the MLS is going along with them

maninb
08-13-2012, 07:30 AM
Here's my post originally from the player movement thread:

Wrong. We need to look at Mariner's player acquisitions compared with a playoff team's acquisitions. Who is LA's Andy Iro? Does NY have an equivalent? *** crickets ***

Stop comparing Mariner to Winter. Compare his acquisitions to better team's acquisitions.

For example, Mariner picked up Léandre Griffit to play on the wing from the Krew. Sporting KC picked up Bobby Convey to play on the wing from San Jose. Is Griffit equivalent to Bobby Convey? Not even close.

It's even worse when you look at defenders. Would Eddy Viator have a chance with any other MLS squad? Jeremy Hall? Logan Emory? How about the disaster who was Caicedo (who was supposed to solve our defensive woes)?

Look at the players he gave away, almost for nothing:

Nick LaBrocca
Dwayne De Rosario
Nana Attackora
Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
JDG

It has nothing to do with whether his players would do better under him than Winter. Judge him by a winning team, not a losing team. Would his players stand a chance in a winning MLS squad? Would they even get in? IF they got in, would be be for bench strength? How was the value that he got for his trades? Where is the DeRo equivalent that we got? Maicon Santos equivalent? You see, he massively failed in that department. When Winter was let go, Mariner should have been shown the door as well.

I agree LaBrocca and Gordon were given away for nothing, but the others you mentioned were either crap or had to go for other reasons...DeRo was a good player but a cancer in the dressing room...Attakora and Santos were rubbish, and JDG had to go to get a DP spot back, besides being the most overpaid player in team history...

Fort York Redcoat
08-13-2012, 08:30 AM
Wrong. We need to look at Mariner's player acquisitions compared with a playoff team's acquisitions. Who is LA's Andy Iro? Does NY have an equivalent? *** crickets ***

Stop comparing Mariner to Winter. Compare his acquisitions to better team's acquisitions.

For example, Mariner picked up Léandre Griffit to play on the wing from the Krew. Sporting KC picked up Bobby Convey to play on the wing from San Jose. Is Griffit equivalent to Bobby Convey? Not even close.

It's even worse when you look at defenders. Would Eddy Viator have a chance with any other MLS squad? Jeremy Hall? Logan Emory? How about the disaster who was Caicedo (who was supposed to solve our defensive woes)?

Look at the players he gave away, almost for nothing:

Nick LaBrocca
Dwayne De Rosario
Nana Attackora
Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
JDG

It has nothing to do with whether his players would do better under him than Winter. Judge him by a winning team, not a losing team. Would his players stand a chance in a winning MLS squad? Would they even get in? IF they got in, would be be for bench strength? How was the value that he got for his trades? Where is the DeRo equivalent that we got? Maicon Santos equivalent? You see, he massively failed in that department. When Winter was let go, Mariner should have been shown the door as well.

The group of players you chose to highlight is a fascinating collection of how TFC had to move players for different reasons at inopportune times to get full value invested.

In most cases it stills remains their fault for poor timing but isn't it astounding that we can't point to any aquisitions that were a straight up "win"? Getting more value than what we intended?

With Mariner acquisitions we would have to say it's been an utter failure in teamwork with finding what the team needs and I completely agree that the comparisons should concentrate on the teams opposition in MLS, NOT previous, terrible incarnations of our present team.

Sidenote:

Of all the players in the "giveaway" list the only one I can truly wish luck to in every game except when he plays us is Labrocca. Incredibly classy and he's getting what he deserves.

Canary10
08-13-2012, 09:09 AM
I know not everyone rates Tony Tchani, but for me his trade for Andy Iro goes down amongst our worst. I'd have him back in heartbeat. He's got a few goals and assists this year too.

spark
08-13-2012, 09:53 AM
I know not everyone rates Tony Tchani, but for me his trade for Andy Iro goes down amongst our worst. I'd have him back in heartbeat. He's got a few goals and assists this year too.

Short term solutions for long term problems ...

I never had a problem with Tchani and would have been willing to give him a few years to see if he developed into something better as he looked to have the physical tools.

However, considering he is part of the larger chain of the De Ro transfer, and we have pretty much nothing to show for that it is embarrassing and I'd love to know who the genius is who pulled the strings on those moves.

ensco
08-13-2012, 11:28 AM
I'm not so sure it's "grandstanding" when you consider what the MLS Academies are doing. That points to a direct and significant shift which will impact the league in which we play. As an example, this was from DC United prior to the start of 2012 season. See if you can spot the similarities to the plan Klinsmann gave us:
...

Known for its results, United's development system is now implementing a style of play that will transcend far beyond wins and losses.

"Everything we do in the academy, whether it is in training or on game day, has to do with the 4-3-3 element and Total Football," Under-16 coach Tom Torres said from his office in RFK Stadium. "Ball possession and high-paced wingers that are getting in behind the back line, there is no doubt that those influences are there."

The influence Torres refers to comes from the most successful youth program in the world, that of fabled Dutch side Ajax Amsterdam. United assistant coach Sonny Silooy played in over 250 matches for the legendary club and works hand in hand with D.C.'s academy coaches in creating a system aimed at producing future professionals. Instead of result-oriented play, academy practices revolve around the technical and mental aspects of attacking soccer, creating an environment where players are more likely to grow than their trophy collections....

(http://www.dcunited.com/news/2012/03/uniteds-academy-takes-next-step)http://www.dcunited.com/news/2012/03/uniteds-academy-takes-next-step

Or Sporting KC:

Sporting KC - " In keeping up with the mantra of copying the first team, all four Sporting KC Juniors sides implement the 4-3-3 system that Manager Peter Vermes uses for the senior squad. Both the U16s and the U18s have found success with the formation while playing in the Development Academy competition"

March 2011 - http://www.sportingkc.com/news/2011/03/academy-key-piece-sporting-kc-puzzle

Or on the link between MLS Academies and the US programs:

New York Red Bulls - "The Red Bulls Academy also provides an excellent example of the model of integration between the Development Academy and the Youth National Teams, successfully mixing players throughout the year in a bid to create a constant flow of talent from the Development Academy into the Youth National Teams and, eventually, the senior Men’s National Team."

http://www.ussoccer.com/news/development-academy/2012/07/new-york-red-bulls-academy-finding-success-sending-players-to-youth-national-teams.aspx

... examples are aplenty and the writing is on the wall (and in brochures) everywhere. That is where the US is going and their development pyramid, which includes the MLS is going along with them

I know I am repeating myself from the TFC Academy discussions of a year ago, but here goes ... this is all BS.

The audience for this 4-3-3 nonsense is, first and foremost, municipal authorities, and their real estate and economic development agencies, who have been sold a load of goods about how the City of Toronto, or the City of wherever, can create this huge industry ("Say Mr Mayor, did you know Brazil's third largest export is soccer players?"), if only said City will give them prime real estate to build their academy. Parents, with stars in their eyes about how their wonderful little Johnny's can now be packaged to go to Barcelona or something, lead the lobbying effort. Once you have the training facility, you can move on if you want, as TFC have already done, and others will do.

We, the fans, never even came into it. Why should we? We of all people know that formations will change season to season, game to game, and within games, as they always have and always will. How can anybody here, of all places, not think this?

The 4-3-3 stuff has always been BS because soccer is about tackling, possession in traffic, one touch passing, etc, in every system ever invented. I mean look at what Barca themselves are doing - Guardiola himself (and del Bosque) were cocking a snook at all this, by mostly playing 10 midfielders.

Pookie
08-13-2012, 11:38 AM
^ I don't disagree with you on the BS aspect to the Academy itself. Also, the 1 v 1 skills that they emphasize are not necessarily unique to any system. Though you could argue that our OSA/CSA model has allowed skills at the young ages to be sacrificed by clubs in order to implement tactics that lead to meaningless results in youth soccer.

I do however think that if players are supported and developed in a thinking pattern which encourages a desire to always keep possession, to look for short passes, to pressure high, etc... that is where they will develop their strength.

If they think in the mindset of "Forward First", they will tend to develop the idea of "long ball"... win it, send it. I do believe that those that think about quick, short passes will ultimately develop better basic skills because of the technical demands required to play that system.

Much like hockey players in Canada were viewed to be a step behind European players because the development model here encouraged a "dump and chase" view of the game. Players didn't think to stick handle their way out of trouble, they simply gave the puck up and tried to win it back by running the defenseman through the boards. Hockey Canada took note and coaching clinics are re-emphasizing the importance of creativity in the game.

T-boy
08-13-2012, 11:58 AM
I am still stuck on the first page of this thread pondering t-boy's statement that Mariner is getting more out of the same players than Winter. It's as if last season's post transfer window improvement and the CCL run never happened. As for explaining it, Whoop has it nailed.

I was away all weekend so couldn't answer. But this thread is super interesting all the way through.

To answer pookie:

I'm not talking about last season, OR the CCL. We can argue all day whether the form in the CCL was linked to players/management etc. But I put CCL/cup games aside here. Cup games (IMO) are different as they get individual players motivated in different ways to league games. The "managers affect" is less in cup games than league games. Players need motivating and prodding in different ways in league games. I doubt it was hard for Winter (or any coach) to motivate the team for the LA game at the Rogers Centre. It equally wasn't hard to motivate them in the cup against Vancouver. Those types of games are simple games for managers really.

So, putting cup games aside, you have to look at the league results this season under Winter Vs under Mariner. I agree with a lot of people, that it isn't difficult for a NEW manager to get better results than the old one. The "new manager bump" is common when the older (unsuccesful) manager leaves and the new one comes in. So, Mariner has benefitted purely from giving players some new found confidence in his new tenure. That's the easy part. The hard part comes from now on - can Mariner sustain the form for the rest of the season. This is where I take offence to some people on this forum - some people are digging Mariner's grave as head coach before he's had time to warrent it. I think all manager deserve a fair crack - and Mariner hasn't had enough time yet.

I think some people read my posts and say "he's just a huge Mariner FAN". But that's not the case. I judge people as and when. So - for now, Mariner has deserve priase as he HAS got better results out of the team. But, as I say, that's the easy part as he's got that "new manager bump". But you still need to praise him for that! It's still a praise-worthy achievement, even if its as simple as getting a "new manager bump". Turning a team from 9-0-1 to 4-4-4 IS an improvement during this season, and those results alone explain that Mariner is, this season, getting more out of the players than Winter was.

As for last season, Winter was starting to get results towards the end of last season. But then took a massive step backwards this season. He clearly had to go, and a monkey who is blind and no football knowledge could probably have got the same "new manager bump" as Mariner.

As for the rest of the season - we need to give ALL the new signings time to prove themselves and settle into the team, and the league (in the case of O'Dea). I'm just going to judge Mariner on his current head coach position, and not on his position before that. None of us know why some players left (did Winter force them out, did Mariner willingly give them away etc?) so its hard to judge Mariner before now.

I realise its hard to give Mariner a "clean slate" from when he became head coach - but we do have to do that. Judging Mariner ONLY on the games he's coached so far, and the mid season transfers - he's done a fairly good job IMO. O'Dea is potentially one of the best signings TFC has ever made. But we have to wait and see. I only know for sure, that labelling somebody a failure before they've had time to fail, is wrong in every sport. Winter had enough time (over a season), Mariner so far hasn't had enough time (part of a season). I don't think any of us can really give an accurate assessment of Mariner until the end of the season. IF he's not improving things by then, I will be just as critical of him as anybody else.

Canary10
08-13-2012, 12:27 PM
I know I am repeating myself from the TFC Academy discussions of a year ago, but here goes ... this is all BS.

The audience for this 4-3-3 nonsense is, first and foremost, municipal authorities, and their real estate and economic development agencies, who have been sold a load of goods about how the City of Toronto, or the City of wherever, can create this huge industry ("Say Mr Mayor, did you know Brazil's third largest export is soccer players?"), if only said City will give them prime real estate to build their academy. Parents, with stars in their eyes about how their wonderful little Johnny's can now be packaged to go to Barcelona or something, lead the lobbying effort. Once you have the training facility, you can move on if you want, as TFC have already done, and others will do.

We, the fans, never even came into it. Why should we? We of all people know that formations will change season to season, game to game, and within games, as they always have and always will. How can anybody here, of all places, not think this?

The 4-3-3 stuff has always been BS because soccer is about tackling, possession in traffic, one touch passing, etc, in every system ever invented. I mean look at what Barca themselves are doing - Guardiola himself (and del Bosque) were cocking a snook at all this, by mostly playing 10 midfielders.

4-3-3 is just being used as code for possession, patient build-up, high press, technical, passing football as opposed to route one. When you hear people say that, don't take it literally as only that particular formation.

ensco
08-13-2012, 01:22 PM
4-3-3 is just being used as code for possession, patient build-up, high press, technical, passing football as opposed to route one. When you hear people say that, don't take it literally as only that particular formation.

Bwahaha. Seriously? You think I don't know what they mean, and if I only I understood, the way you discerning sophisticates do, then nirvana would arrive and my whole view would change?

You didn't just post that and mean it, did you?

jabbronies
08-13-2012, 01:27 PM
4-3-3 is just being used as code for possession, patient build-up, high press, technical, passing football as opposed to route one. When you hear people say that, don't take it literally as only that particular formation.

This.
It's like when people say "preki hoof ball", not meant to be exact. It's an overall style based around similar ideas and philosophies of preki hoof ball.

People are basically saying we are going from "possession" football to "direct" football.

jabbronies
08-13-2012, 01:31 PM
I know I am repeating myself from the TFC Academy discussions of a year ago, but here goes ... this is all BS.

The audience for this 4-3-3 nonsense is, first and foremost, municipal authorities, and their real estate and economic development agencies, who have been sold a load of goods about how the City of Toronto, or the City of wherever, can create this huge industry ("Say Mr Mayor, did you know Brazil's third largest export is soccer players?"), if only said City will give them prime real estate to build their academy. Parents, with stars in their eyes about how their wonderful little Johnny's can now be packaged to go to Barcelona or something, lead the lobbying effort. Once you have the training facility, you can move on if you want, as TFC have already done, and others will do.

We, the fans, never even came into it. Why should we? We of all people know that formations will change season to season, game to game, and within games, as they always have and always will. How can anybody here, of all places, not think this?

The 4-3-3 stuff has always been BS because soccer is about tackling, possession in traffic, one touch passing, etc, in every system ever invented. I mean look at what Barca themselves are doing - Guardiola himself (and del Bosque) were cocking a snook at all this, by mostly playing 10 midfielders.

Is this post for real?

ensco
08-13-2012, 01:56 PM
Is this post for real?

I give up. Enjoy your discussion.

starter
08-13-2012, 02:03 PM
By the time PM took over we had most of ingredients to run 433, with notable absence of a competent CB. PM said that he would tailor the system to fit personnel, which may have sounded benign then, as we still had wide attacking players! Instead he cuts Soolsma/Plata, and THEN switches the system to fit the personnel. So he is sort of did the tweak, nothing radical, and we are back playing the style that should have died 10 years ago.
Yes, we all would like smooth tiki-taka TFC, but our players are not of that quality. What could have helped the team was to employ some sort of modern approach that can help overcome obvious technical deficiencies, and going back to traditional 442 is not it.

ManUtd4ever
08-13-2012, 02:11 PM
I know I am repeating myself from the TFC Academy discussions of a year ago, but here goes ... this is all BS.

The audience for this 4-3-3 nonsense is, first and foremost, municipal authorities, and their real estate and economic development agencies, who have been sold a load of goods about how the City of Toronto, or the City of wherever, can create this huge industry ("Say Mr Mayor, did you know Brazil's third largest export is soccer players?"), if only said City will give them prime real estate to build their academy. Parents, with stars in their eyes about how their wonderful little Johnny's can now be packaged to go to Barcelona or something, lead the lobbying effort. Once you have the training facility, you can move on if you want, as TFC have already done, and others will do.

We, the fans, never even came into it. Why should we? We of all people know that formations will change season to season, game to game, and within games, as they always have and always will. How can anybody here, of all places, not think this?

The 4-3-3 stuff has always been BS because soccer is about tackling, possession in traffic, one touch passing, etc, in every system ever invented. I mean look at what Barca themselves are doing - Guardiola himself (and del Bosque) were cocking a snook at all this, by mostly playing 10 midfielders.

Bang on.

Canary10
08-13-2012, 02:28 PM
Bwahaha. Seriously? You think I don't know what they mean, and if I only I understood, the way you discerning sophisticates do, then nirvana would arrive and my whole view would change?

You didn't just post that and mean it, did you?

WTF? Why did you say this then (if you are using 4-3-3 not as the formation but the style of footballing it is referring to as a short cut?):

"We, the fans, never even came into it. Why should we? We of all people know that formations will change season to season, game to game, and within games, as they always have and always will. How can anybody here, of all places, not think this?"

If you are using 4-3-3 as a style of play, not as a formation, this paragraph makes no sense since 4-3-3 is not referring to the formation at all, but the style of play, which doesn't change game to game or within games.

Sorry for offending, ffs.

ag futbol
08-13-2012, 02:34 PM
Bwahaha. Seriously? You think I don't know what they mean, and if I only I understood, the way you discerning sophisticates do, then nirvana would arrive and my whole view would change?

You didn't just post that and mean it, did you?
Aren’t you over-simplifying a bit though? Obviously you’ve acknowledged that developing players is about X, Y, and Z, which I agree with, but isn’t there a certain stylistic element to it as well? Otherwise it would seem that everyone is focused on the same thing and it’s all down to randomness. This is just my observation, but for the purpose of developing players, it seems like approaches that border on stylistic dogma are a lot more potent than those that are pragmatic.

That being said, I don’t disagree with you that TFCA is nothing more than a marketing scheme. IMO they basically rely on the depth of the GTA player pool to yield results, otherwise consider me vastly unimpressed with the training they offer. As you said, it’s really all about getting cheap real estate for a training facility and as others have pointed out… milking Adidas for sponsorship dollars based on academy attendance.

The stupid part of all this is, MLS has acknowledged they need to better local players to avoid becoming a NASL style wash with foreign players. They’re really only cheating themselves by skimping. That being said, TFC isn’t doing anything different than anyone else other than really push the marketing aspect of the academy.

Canary10
08-13-2012, 02:36 PM
I know I am repeating myself from the TFC Academy discussions of a year ago, but here goes ... this is all BS.

The audience for this 4-3-3 nonsense is, first and foremost, municipal authorities, and their real estate and economic development agencies, who have been sold a load of goods about how the City of Toronto, or the City of wherever, can create this huge industry ("Say Mr Mayor, did you know Brazil's third largest export is soccer players?"), if only said City will give them prime real estate to build their academy. Parents, with stars in their eyes about how their wonderful little Johnny's can now be packaged to go to Barcelona or something, lead the lobbying effort. Once you have the training facility, you can move on if you want, as TFC have already done, and others will do.

We, the fans, never even came into it. Why should we? We of all people know that formations will change season to season, game to game, and within games, as they always have and always will. How can anybody here, of all places, not think this?

The 4-3-3 stuff has always been BS because soccer is about tackling, possession in traffic, one touch passing, etc, in every system ever invented. I mean look at what Barca themselves are doing - Guardiola himself (and del Bosque) were cocking a snook at all this, by mostly playing 10 midfielders.

The City of Toronto doesn't even own Downsview Park......

Beach_Red
08-13-2012, 02:48 PM
4-3-3 is just being used as code for possession, patient build-up, high press, technical, passing football as opposed to route one. When you hear people say that, don't take it literally as only that particular formation.

Anything sports related described as "patient" is going to be a tough sell in the USA. It could work, certainly, but it doesn't really play to America's strengths. Most kids who play soccer in the US will also probably play basketball and run track, or something else, in high school. It's that whole culture thing.

But Spain are looking pretty good at soccer and basketball so maybe the US will someday, too.

Canary10
08-13-2012, 02:55 PM
Anything sports related described as "patient" is going to be a tough sell in the USA. It could work, certainly, but it doesn't really play to America's strengths. Most kids who play soccer in the US will also probably play basketball and run track, or something else, in high school. It's that whole culture thing.

But Spain are looking pretty good at soccer and basketball so maybe the US will someday, too.

Yeah, I was at a TFC game earlier this year when a guy behind me yelled "enough of this passing shit." I don't disagree it may be a hard sell to fans. At the very least though, the US has to be trying to improve skills on the ball. They will never be a top 15 country relying on being fast and physical over the basic skills, which is where they are now for the most part.

Wull
08-13-2012, 02:55 PM
I realise its hard to give Mariner a "clean slate" from when he became head coach - but we do have to do that. Judging Mariner ONLY on the games he's coached so far, and the mid season transfers - he's done a fairly good job IMO. O'Dea is potentially one of the best signings TFC has ever made.

I don't have to do anything, nor will I. He's been part of the issue since he was brought in. He's helped perpetuate the same shitshow. Even after Winter left we had the Plata debacle and he was front and centre in it. Him and his buddies earl, tommy and jimmy need to go if we're ever going to get things sorted behind the scenes (ever wonder why the TFC guys in the press purr at him instead of waht his predecessors got almost from the start?) Don't ask me who we bring in instead, there are others who know the league better than I do but a total clear out is needed this time instead of the targeted ones we had before that left the usual suspects still grabbing at power every chance they got.

prizby
08-13-2012, 03:00 PM
Check this list of TFC coaches:

Paul Mariner (little head coaching experience with Plymouth Argule - who got relegated under Mariner. Replaced)

One ONE of the above 7 coaches have proper 1st team head coaching experience: Preki. In fact, he's the only coach that we've ever had that actually deserved the job. However, he had a pretty bad reputation and we should've passed on him based on that.

The above is a MASSIVE explanation as to why we've been shit for 6 full seasons. MASSIVE! Next head coach BETTER have PROPER and SIGNIFICANT 1st team head coaching experience, or I'm officially done with this club.

longtime assistant manager in MLS on a team that made several MLS Cup Finals that started to lose only when he left the team...

Frank Klopas - no outdoor head coaching experience before taking over Chicago
Robert Warzycha - 6 years as an assistant manager, then promoted
Ben Olsen - less than a year of experience as an assistant manager, then promoted
Dominic Kinnear - an assistant manager for 3 years, then promoted
Jesse Marsch - no head coaching experience; 10 wins so far with an expansion team
Peter Vermes - no head coaching experience before taking over for the Wizzies
Robin Fraser - 4 years as an assistant at RSL before being hired by Chivas
Oscar Pareja - 7 years as an assistant at Dallas before being hired by Colorado
Jason Kreis - retired as a player to become the head coach at RSL

i count about half the teams with managers right now who are successful or somewhat successful (better success than TFC) who started with ZERO head coaching experience and 5 here who have MLS experience as an assistant manager...explain why they aren't shit if your theory is lack of experience?

ensco
08-13-2012, 03:01 PM
Aren’t you over-simplifying a bit though? Obviously you’ve acknowledged that developing players is about X, Y, and Z, which I agree with, but isn’t there a certain stylistic element to it as well? Otherwise it would seem that everyone is focused on the same thing and it’s all down to randomness. This is just my observation, but for the purpose of developing players, it seems like approaches that border on stylistic dogma are a lot more potent than those that are pragmatic.
.

This is just making it more complex than it is.

I'm guessing you are German, or support Germany. Tell me, exactly what is the German "style" today?

imho, it's having damn talented, resilient, adaptable footballers, is what it is. Their best players can play tiki-taka in traffic, or give you the 40 yard pass over the top. Whatever the situation demands.

prizby
08-13-2012, 03:05 PM
I struggle with comparing USSF with TFC and think its more relevant to look at USSF vs CSA and how the Klinsmann plan develops versus CSA's long term development plan. There is no doubt the CSA has a lot of catching up to do as the infrastructure is still in the planning phase in Canada. Canadian Soccer + ?Domestic second division? + CIAU/CCAA has a long way to go to rival our neighbours as you have outlined!

Is there an MLS clubs vision/ plan that would be better to compare to TFC? Obvious measure is wins which is how we got into this mess in the first place. To check in on how the vision/ plan is working I think looking at how the academies perform at developing players to meet market demand would certainly be an indicator. TFC's investment in academy infrastructure was a step in the right direction. How well will they do in developing a profile for 12 year olds that consistently graduate into first team players is at least a 5 (10?) year question. There were some promising results with the latest U15 and U17 tournament. When I went to the coaching open house last year it was very interesting listening and watching BDK and Jason Bent lead the Academy boys through training and drills. It will be very interesting to see what the open house looks like this year with Rongen as director. As TFC continues to graduate players we will find out if they are meeting the market demand but and that is probably the first evidence we will have of whether the development plan is going in the right direction or not.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/toronto-fc/startseite/verein_11141.html (not sure how accurate this is, very interesting site though!)

Hopefully someone with better knowledge than me can compare another MLS team to this list:

Quillan: 100k
Henry: 125K
Morgan: 175K
Stinson: 175K
Cordon: 100K
Lindsay: 100k (not sure if he is ever playing again?)
Makubuya: 100K

Wonder how Pasher will rate?

not very accurate when andrew boyens is rated 225k-250k

saw Lindsay practicing with the first team; look dangerous with the academy as well

T-boy
08-13-2012, 03:06 PM
4-3-3 is just being used as code for possession, patient build-up, high press, technical, passing football as opposed to route one. When you hear people say that, don't take it literally as only that particular formation.

I read through the whole thread, and a lot of opinion of Mariner, and the club, seems to be either based on innaccuracies OR unfounded assumptions.

So firstly, Canary is right. People saying "4-3-3" like its a code for something universaly known is incorrect. There are MANY versions of 4-3-3 - possessions based, pressing based, defensive etc - just saying "4-3-3" doesn't really mean anything. It's a formation - its not a style, or even necessarily a tactic. But a lot of people are over-simplifying buy saying "4-3-3" as a definition of the Winter/Ajax system. Some people seem to clearly understand that, and other people are calling the formation out as a type of bangwagonesque lynching of either Winter OR Mariner.


By the time PM took over we had most of ingredients to run 433, with notable absence of a competent CB. PM said that he would tailor the system to fit personnel, which may have sounded benign then, as we still had wide attacking players! Instead he cuts Soolsma/Plata, and THEN switches the system to fit the personnel. So he is sort of did the tweak, nothing radical, and we are back playing the style that should have died 10 years ago.
Yes, we all would like smooth tiki-taka TFC, but our players are not of that quality. What could have helped the team was to employ some sort of modern approach that can help overcome obvious technical deficiencies, and going back to traditional 442 is not it.

I'm sorry for picking on you, starter, but this is the type of assumption thas it wrong in this thread. None of us know if Mariner "cut soolsma/plata" or they wanted to leave. My assumption (for my argument) is that both players WANTED to leave. Meanwhile other people (like yourself) are making the assumption that they were both shown the door by Mariner.

The fact is that NONE of us know the truth about it - so to use assumptions to prove an argument is just plain wrong! This thread is full of people saying "Mariner did X", when none of actually know these things at all! Or saying "Mariner WILL do Y in the future" - but how do you know?! We all have opinions, but you can't base statements based on things that may or may not happen (and we don't know either way) or something that "will or will not happen" in the future. Everybody is using "facts" that they think are true, to prove their opinion, but these "facts" are no more than an assumption.

Canary10
08-13-2012, 03:13 PM
longtime assistant manager in MLS on a team that made several MLS Cup Finals that started to lose only when he left the team...

Frank Klopas - no outdoor head coaching experience before taking over Chicago
Robert Warzycha - 6 years as an assistant manager, then promoted
Ben Olsen - less than a year of experience as an assistant manager, then promoted
Dominic Kinnear - an assistant manager for 3 years, then promoted
Jesse Marsch - no head coaching experience; 10 wins so far with an expansion team
Peter Vermes - no head coaching experience before taking over for the Wizzies
Robin Fraser - 4 years as an assistant at RSL before being hired by Chivas
Oscar Pareja - 7 years as an assistant at Dallas before being hired by Colorado
Jason Kreis - retired as a player to become the head coach at RSL

i count about half the teams with managers right now who are successful or somewhat successful (better success than TFC) who started with ZERO head coaching experience and 5 here who have MLS experience as an assistant manager...explain why they aren't shit if your theory is lack of experience?

I agree with your overall point, but some of those guys you list actually are shit.

prizby
08-13-2012, 03:16 PM
I agree with your overall point, but some of those guys you list actually are shit.

like?

Beach_Red
08-13-2012, 03:16 PM
Yeah, I was at a TFC game earlier this year when a guy behind me yelled "enough of this passing shit." I don't disagree it may be a hard sell to fans. At the very least though, the US has to be trying to improve skills on the ball. They will never be a top 15 country relying on being fast and physical over the basic skills, which is where they are now for the most part.

Well, it's not really either/or, it's a combination. And it isn't just the fans it's the players too. If the US is ever going to get serious about soccer they'll have to adapt it to their strengths. Look at how basketball changed over the years. Hell, look how marching bands changed over the years.

That's just the way American culture is, for anything they get serious about. It remains to be seen if they'll get serious about soccer.

Canary10
08-13-2012, 03:23 PM
like?

Robin Fraser is probably the most obvious. Chivas USA is practically a synonym for medocrity in the thesaurus. I would argue Warzycha, which may be controversial to some, but I think Columbus will be increasingly shit as the years go on with him as head coach. He was more of an MLS 1.0 coach. Oscar Pareja is not getting good results. He may be finding some of the same issues Winter had in trying to convert a team that played pretty dour football into something else. Or, like Winter, he could just be unable to make the change.

I agree with your point though. Head coaching experience isn't necessarily a prerequisite, or MLS experience for that matter. Some good coaches come up through the college ranks. We could be looking there.

jabbronies
08-13-2012, 03:29 PM
I give up. Enjoy your discussion.

What are you giving up on? I didn't realize we were in a competition here.

You dismiss the idea of having a foundation formation as just some sort of selling point to mindless, non-soccer people in the city. That we of all people should never have bought into the idea that a possession based soccer style would be the focus at TFCA. That it was all a farce to sell through to the city bureaucrats to get land for the facility.

jabbronies
08-13-2012, 03:48 PM
This is just making it more complex than it is.

I'm guessing you are German, or support Germany. Tell me, exactly what is the German "style" today?

imho, it's having damn talented, resilient, adaptable footballers, is what it is. Their best players can play tiki-taka in traffic, or give you the 40 yard pass over the top. Whatever the situation demands.

Talent is a given for academy players. They already know how to pass/shoot/kick. They need to learn how to do this in game situation, in a formation. Different formations call for different players to do different things - you know a holding mid has different options in a 4-3-3 vs a 4-4-2 etc - So they are taught a single formation with variations to get an understanding of how the games flows. That formation and it's variations are usually reflective of what the first team plays so they player is working towards that first team position. Teams are not worried about having players play 7 different formations with multiple variations as they specialize in less...

I think you already know this..Maybe it's the internet that is causing some lose of translation in what you are trying to describe...

ensco
08-13-2012, 03:56 PM
What are you giving up on? I didn't realize we were in a competition here.

You dismiss the idea of having a foundation formation as just some sort of selling point to mindless, non-soccer people in the city. That we of all people should never have bought into the idea that a possession based soccer style would be the focus at TFCA. That it was all a farce to sell through to the city bureaucrats to get land for the facility.

OK. I don't "know" anything. But I have to tell you, for reasons I cannot disclose, that what I have said, and you repeat above, is closer to the truth than many would like to believe. But nobody, least of all parents with kids in the system, wants to hear it.

Of course if Winter had been any good, they would have stuck with it. But he wasn't, and Anselmi et al needed to blame someone, so there it is. The "system" was less important than the personalities.

I realize how this will sound, but sometimes in these business discussions around how MLSE operates in its public lands acquisition/real estate dealings, I feel like Stalin, who in 1949 said to the Soviet Politburo: "When I am gone, the capitalists will drown you all like blind kittens". These guys play for real money in ways we don't even realize. Especially the passionate supporters of the new "system", in this case, some of whom chose TFCA for their own children.

It's just one example. We're being used, all of us, all the time.

Canary10
08-13-2012, 04:06 PM
OK. I don't "know" anything. But I have to tell you, for reasons I cannot disclose, that what I have said, and you repeat above, is closer to the truth than many would like to believe. But nobody, least of all parents with kids in the system, wants to hear it.

Of course if Winter had been any good, they would have stuck with it. But he wasn't, and Anselmi et al needed to blame someone, so there it is. The "system" was less important than the personalities.

I realize how this will sound, but sometimes in these business discussions around how MLSE operates in its public lands acquisition/real estate dealings, I feel like Stalin, who in 1949 said to the Soviet Politburo: "When I am gone, the capitalists will drown you all like blind kittens". These guys play for real money in ways we don't even realize. Especially the passionate supporters of the new "system", in this case, some of whom chose TFCA for their own children.

It's just one example. We're being used, all of us, all the time.

I don't doubt this one bit.

jabbronies
08-13-2012, 04:19 PM
OK. I don't "know" anything. But I have to tell you, for reasons I cannot disclose, that what I have said, and you repeat above, is closer to the truth than many would like to believe. But nobody, least of all parents with kids in the system, wants to hear it.

Of course if Winter had been any good, they would have stuck with it. But he wasn't, and Anselmi et al needed to blame someone, so there it is. The "system" was less important than the personalities.

I realize how this will sound, but sometimes in these business discussions around how MLSE operates in its public lands acquisition/real estate dealings, I feel like Stalin, who in 1949 said to the Soviet Politburo: "When I am gone, the capitalists will drown you all like blind kittens". These guys play for real money in ways we don't even realize. Especially the passionate supporters of the new "system", in this case, some of whom chose TFCA for their own children.

It's just one example. We're being used, all of us, all the time.

got it. This isn't about soccer at all. AS per usual MLSE

Greatest Ripoff
08-13-2012, 04:42 PM
like?

Robin Fraser

prizby
08-13-2012, 05:59 PM
Robin Fraser is probably the most obvious. Chivas USA is practically a synonym for medocrity in the thesaurus. I would argue Warzycha, which may be controversial to some, but I think Columbus will be increasingly shit as the years go on with him as head coach. He was more of an MLS 1.0 coach. Oscar Pareja is not getting good results. He may be finding some of the same issues Winter had in trying to convert a team that played pretty dour football into something else. Or, like Winter, he could just be unable to make the change.

I agree with your point though. Head coaching experience isn't necessarily a prerequisite, or MLS experience for that matter. Some good coaches come up through the college ranks. We could be looking there.

Robin Fraser has been given very little to work with (like Jay Heaps)...imagine if he had the financial backing that some of the other teams have had

Greatest Ripoff
08-13-2012, 06:13 PM
Angel
Califf
Agudelo
Joseph
Moreno
Kennedy

These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. They were absolutely brutal last night. They have scored the least goals in all of MLS this season. And it doesn't look like they don't have the ability, just that don't seem to care about attacking.

starter
08-13-2012, 06:14 PM
...
this is the type of assumption thas it wrong in this thread. None of us know if Mariner "cut soolsma/plata" or they wanted to leave. My assumption (for my argument) is that both players WANTED to leave. Meanwhile other people (like yourself) are making the assumption that they were both shown the door by Mariner.

The fact is that NONE of us know the truth about it - so to use assumptions to prove an argument is just plain wrong! This thread is full of people saying "Mariner did X", when none of actually know these things at all! Or saying "Mariner WILL do Y in the future" - but how do you know?! We all have opinions, but you can't base statements based on things that may or may not happen (and we don't know either way) or something that "will or will not happen" in the future. Everybody is using "facts" that they think are true, to prove their opinion, but these "facts" are no more than an assumption.

I am just using normal reasoning, where people would leave when they:
a) shown the door, or
b) see no room for their development in the organization.

In case it was b), I can only wish the best for them, but still hold Mariner responsible for the exodus.

Cheers.

Super
08-14-2012, 12:00 AM
Robin Fraser is probably the most obvious. Chivas USA is practically a synonym for medocrity in the thesaurus. I would argue Warzycha, which may be controversial to some, but I think Columbus will be increasingly shit as the years go on with him as head coach. He was more of an MLS 1.0 coach. Oscar Pareja is not getting good results. He may be finding some of the same issues Winter had in trying to convert a team that played pretty dour football into something else. Or, like Winter, he could just be unable to make the change.

I agree with your point though. Head coaching experience isn't necessarily a prerequisite, or MLS experience for that matter. Some good coaches come up through the college ranks. We could be looking there.

No. No it's not. But it's probably where you start looking though. But you're right, there are good coaches coming up through the college ranks, and there are good coaches in the NASL as well. We should be looking everywhere. But considering the state of things at TFC, maybe we'd be better off getting someone impressive. Not just by name, but ideally by resume (head coaching experience). Big up the club. The media has always pointed out the lack of experience with our coaches too.

We've tried guys with little to no head coaching experience. We've had 6 years of shit. Surely we should try and change the type of coaches we bring to our club. They've pretty much all been absolutely horrible. Can't blame it all on MLSE and the players. I understand from being on this board that some people do enjoy assistant coaches. Or youth coaches. Or college coaches. I'm personally preferential to head coaches. Just like in business - I want the best guy who has PROVEN that he can do the job. Not his assistant.

Fort York Redcoat
08-14-2012, 06:54 AM
No. No it's not. But it's probably where you start looking though. But you're right, there are good coaches coming up through the college ranks, and there are good coaches in the NASL as well. We should be looking everywhere. But considering the state of things at TFC, maybe we'd be better off getting someone impressive. Not just by name, but ideally by resume (head coaching experience). Big up the club. The media has always pointed out the lack of experience with our coaches too.

We've tried guys with little to no head coaching experience. We've had 6 years of shit. Surely we should try and change the type of coaches we bring to our club. They've pretty much all been absolutely horrible. Can't blame it all on MLSE and the players. I understand from being on this board that some people do enjoy assistant coaches. Or youth coaches. Or college coaches. I'm personally preferential to head coaches. Just like in business - I want the best guy who has PROVEN that he can do the job. Not his assistant.

That would be an interesting switch for us as a group. Most followers of the team have been pretty particular about coaching experience being from somewhere else other than NA. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to look at winning coaches down the NA pyramid just that it would be a hard sell. Still, if there was ever a time for it I think more and more fans are losing faith that the answer for a talented coach must come from abroad (across the pond).

Super
08-14-2012, 08:42 AM
That would be an interesting switch for us as a group. Most followers of the team have been pretty particular about coaching experience being from somewhere else other than NA. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to look at winning coaches down the NA pyramid just that it would be a hard sell. Still, if there was ever a time for it I think more and more fans are losing faith that the answer for a talented coach must come from abroad (across the pond).

We haven't tried an experienced head coach from abroad yet. Let's give that a first try. What we've tried are assistant coaches and youth coaches, all of whom either are now out of work or back to working as assistants.

Fort York Redcoat
08-14-2012, 08:51 AM
We haven't tried an experienced head coach from abroad yet. Let's give that a first try. What we've tried are assistant coaches and youth coaches, all of whom either are now out of work or back to working as assistants.

I wasn't saying that we had been hiring experienced foreign coaches. I was saying that's the preference of most, which you just attested to, but I think it important to note the difference in difficulty getting an experienced coach from abroad to come to MLS generally and Toronto specifically.

I'm wondering how many are tired of coaches from abroad blaming MLS for their lack of success. An experienced NA coach would not get to use that excuse, at least.

Just curious...

Super
08-14-2012, 09:11 AM
I wasn't saying that we had been hiring experienced foreign coaches. I was saying that's the preference of most, which you just attested to, but I think it important to note the difference in difficulty getting an experienced coach from abroad to come to MLS generally and Toronto specifically.

I'm wondering how many are tired of coaches from abroad blaming MLS for their lack of success. An experienced NA coach would not get to use that excuse, at least.

Just curious...

True, it's not easy to bring in an experienced coach, but they will come if the pay is right. Clearly we have deep pockets. Guy like Hans Backe would have been good. Again, not saying it'll work (because Lord knows nothing is working around here) but it's something we haven't tried yet. So personally I would like to see us try. Unfortunately Anselmi probably doesn't know where to begin looking for one anyway.

We often like to compare ourselves to Scandinavia, and it's probably correct, but if you look at Denmark you'll find only 2 out of 12 head coaches in the top league with zero head coaching experiences. 1 of the 2 is a former star for his team, so his profile was big enough to get the promotion. The other guy used to be head coach of the U-17 Danish national team. So that's significant enough - although when I say "head coaching experience" I really mean head coaching for a senior first team. In other words there is a culture of hiring experienced people for the top job. Not sure why that's such an odd thing over here.

Beach_Red
08-14-2012, 09:36 AM
True, it's not easy to bring in an experienced coach, but they will come if the pay is right. Clearly we have deep pockets. Guy like Hans Backe would have been good. Again, not saying it'll work (because Lord knows nothing is working around here) but it's something we haven't tried yet. So personally I would like to see us try. Unfortunately Anselmi probably doesn't know where to begin looking for one anyway.

We often like to compare ourselves to Scandinavia, and it's probably correct, but if you look at Denmark you'll find only 2 out of 12 head coaches in the top league with zero head coaching experiences. 1 of the 2 is a former star for his team, so his profile was big enough to get the promotion. The other guy used to be head coach of the U-17 Danish national team. So that's significant enough - although when I say "head coaching experience" I really mean head coaching for a senior first team. In other words there is a culture of hiring experienced people for the top job. Not sure why that's such an odd thing over here.

But there's likely more than just the pay involved. When Winter said he wanted to keep DeRo but was overruled by Anselmi it really showed that the TFC coach or GM or director of whetever we want to call it doesn't have the final say. The same was the case for signing a DP, when you cut through all the BS coming from the team, it seems likely that the decision isn't being made by the coach or GM alone.

Until the structure of the team is corrected it's unlikely many experienced coaches will want to work under these conditions. This is a problem the team has had from the very start and it's never been addressed.

T-boy
08-14-2012, 09:41 AM
As far as head coaches/managers are concerned - nearly EVERY manager has some success and some failure at some point in time. It's just the nature of the beast in football management. I think I can name a failure to nearly all famous football managers. The only ones that have NEVER had a failure (or a firing) are the worlds most famous - Ferguson, Mourinho etc. So, you can't really judge managers on their past clubs, as you can always find fault. Plus, these managers have all had to start somewhere! Jose Mourinho wasn't born a football manager - he had to learn the trade and then get a club. So, for those who are judging Mariner on his past, really have little grounds to do so. Judge him on his TFC career, not what came before, or his lack of experience before. That really has little to do with anything in football management.

Super
08-14-2012, 09:44 AM
But there's likely more than just the pay involved. When Winter said he wanted to keep DeRo but was overruled by Anselmi it really showed that the TFC coach or GM or director of whetever we want to call it doesn't have the final say. The same was the case for signing a DP, when you cut through all the BS coming from the team, it seems likely that the decision isn't being made by the coach or GM alone.

Until the structure of the team is corrected it's unlikely many experienced coaches will want to work under these conditions. This is a problem the team has had from the very start and it's never been addressed.

So many things need to change with TFC. Anselmi getting moved away from us is number one on my list. I blame him more than anyone else for the current state of affairs.

Canary10
08-14-2012, 09:58 AM
As far as head coaches/managers are concerned - nearly EVERY manager has some success and some failure at some point in time. It's just the nature of the beast in football management. I think I can name a failure to nearly all famous football managers. The only ones that have NEVER had a failure (or a firing) are the worlds most famous - Ferguson, Mourinho etc. So, you can't really judge managers on their past clubs, as you can always find fault. Plus, these managers have all had to start somewhere! Jose Mourinho wasn't born a football manager - he had to learn the trade and then get a club. So, for those who are judging Mariner on his past, really have little grounds to do so. Judge him on his TFC career, not what came before, or his lack of experience before. That really has little to do with anything in football management.

I agree you can't necessarily look at him and say he lacks experience (only being an assistant and having a very brief and disastrous spell as a head coach) and judge him as a bad manager based on that lack of experience. I do think you can look at his track record and assess what kind of manager he'll be. Based on his track record, I don't think we'll see anything from Mariner that we haven't see already. He's going to be a 4-4-2 guy, and he's not going to change formation or tactics much. If you want that, great, that's what you've got. If you don't want that then I think his experience is fair game.

Fort York Redcoat
08-14-2012, 10:01 AM
True, it's not easy to bring in an experienced coach, but they will come if the pay is right. Clearly we have deep pockets. Guy like Hans Backe would have been good. Again, not saying it'll work (because Lord knows nothing is working around here) but it's something we haven't tried yet. So personally I would like to see us try. Unfortunately Anselmi probably doesn't know where to begin looking for one anyway.

We often like to compare ourselves to Scandinavia, and it's probably correct, but if you look at Denmark you'll find only 2 out of 12 head coaches in the top league with zero head coaching experiences. 1 of the 2 is a former star for his team, so his profile was big enough to get the promotion. The other guy used to be head coach of the U-17 Danish national team. So that's significant enough - although when I say "head coaching experience" I really mean head coaching for a senior first team. In other words there is a culture of hiring experienced people for the top job. Not sure why that's such an odd thing over here.

Again with this talk, though. Super I know you are amongst so many supporters that, LIKE MYSELF, think that hiring an experienced coach from abroad would've been the first step, the easiest step from the very beginning if you want the best available and don't know the sport well enough as an MLSE wouldn't. It's an easier way out to improve quickly. Another additional way that was here even before the Designated Player.

I guess what I'm asking is - would there be others out there that would start to give a chance to an experienced, winning coach from a lower level from NA if we couldn't convince a storied foreign manager to come to Toronto? Because, really, why would he?

T-boy
08-14-2012, 10:12 AM
I agree you can't necessarily look at him and say he lacks experience (only being an assistant and having a very brief and disastrous spell as a head coach) and judge him as a bad manager based on that lack of experience. I do think you can look at his track record and assess what kind of manager he'll be. Based on his track record, I don't think we'll see anything from Mariner that we haven't see already. He's going to be a 4-4-2 guy, and he's not going to change formation or tactics much. If you want that, great, that's what you've got. If you don't want that then I think his experience is fair game.

For sure, agreed. It's really not much different to Winter really (sticking to the one formation generally and his system) - so it really does come down to personal fan preference. I think some people won't care about formation IF TFC are winning - but others clearly think that style is equally as important to success.

Beach_Red
08-14-2012, 11:30 AM
So many things need to change with TFC. Anselmi getting moved away from us is number one on my list. I blame him more than anyone else for the current state of affairs.

Yes, but as long as he's here, or as long as the structure of TFC is the way it is, that has to figure into everything. For this reason I think Mariner is a good choice, mostly because of his experience in dealing with, let's say, "not the best" MLS ownership.

Personel, like styles, are really situationally-dependent. So we have to find the best personel and style for our situation. Someday maybe our situation will change. Until then...

Auzzy
08-14-2012, 11:33 AM
So Mariner told Greg Brady and Eric Smith on Fan 590, that TFC is "3 players away from being half decent." Interesting, I think he said that before. No wait, that was Mo Johnston...

Canary10
08-14-2012, 11:51 AM
Yes, but as long as he's here, or as long as the structure of TFC is the way it is, that has to figure into everything. For this reason I think Mariner is a good choice, mostly because of his experience in dealing with, let's say, "not the best" MLS ownership.

Personel, like styles, are really situationally-dependent. So we have to find the best personel and style for our situation. Someday maybe our situation will change. Until then...

He certainly has had the experience of dealing with a bad front office that all the supporters hated - this was exactly the situation he had in Plymouth Argyle, where all the supporters thought the FO was too concerned with getting World Cup games if England won their bid, than the team, which was going down in flames on the pitch.

Question is, did Anselmi ask Mariner if he can deal with a bad front office when he was hired? :)

Super
08-14-2012, 12:00 PM
Again with this talk, though. Super I know you are amongst so many supporters that, LIKE MYSELF, think that hiring an experienced coach from abroad would've been the first step, the easiest step from the very beginning if you want the best available and don't know the sport well enough as an MLSE wouldn't. It's an easier way out to improve quickly. Another additional way that was here even before the Designated Player.

I guess what I'm asking is - would there be others out there that would start to give a chance to an experienced, winning coach from a lower level from NA if we couldn't convince a storied foreign manager to come to Toronto? Because, really, why would he?

To be honest, I don't think it matters at this point. We're dealing with a club that has to hire consultants to find its coaches. We just don't have the proper management (read: Anselmi) in place capable of finding talent, let alone someone with experience. More dark clouds ahead.


Yes, but as long as he's here, or as long as the structure of TFC is the way it is, that has to figure into everything. For this reason I think Mariner is a good choice, mostly because of his experience in dealing with, let's say, "not the best" MLS ownership.

Personel, like styles, are really situationally-dependent. So we have to find the best personel and style for our situation. Someday maybe our situation will change. Until then...

Mariner never REALLY had to deal with ownership. He was an assistant. Assistants assist. They don't make choices. They don't push for changes. Rarely, anyway. Steve Nicol was boss at NE and Mariner did what he was told. Now he's been given a shot at the big job. Let's see if he has what it takes. Right now he's not doing too well - if you average out his games over a season we miss the play-offs AGAIN. And that's with the usual bump that a new coach gets when taking over a sinking ship.

My problem with Mariner is that I actually do like him. I like a lot of what he has to say. I like his passion for the game - and how he fights for the players. Good qualities in a manager. What I don't like as much is his inability to put together a squad (he brought in many of our players) and make it work. Look at our possession. I'd LOOOOOOOOOVE for Mariner to be THE MAN and for him to succeed. He's successful and we all get to wash away the filth of 6 years of failure. I just don't think the decision to promote, or side-move him, to head coach was well thought out. Just seems more of the same from TFC FO to me, and that worries the heck out of me. I'd hate to be in June of 2013 and we write off yet another season. At that point there will be a lot of bitching and moaning, but at the end of the day it's not like we can really blame Mariner - he's learning on the job.


He certainly has had the experience of dealing with a bad front office that all the supporters hated - this was exactly the situation he had in Plymouth Argyle, where all the supporters thought the FO was too concerned with getting World Cup games if England won their bid, than the team, which was going down in flames on the pitch.

Question is, did Anselmi ask Mariner if he can deal with a bad front office when he was hired? :)

Mariner's one shot at head coach before us didn't end very well. Not sure how that qualifies him to run our club.

ag futbol
08-14-2012, 12:09 PM
So Mariner told Greg Brady and Eric Smith on Fan 590, that TFC is "3 players away from being half decent." Interesting, I think he said that before. No wait, that was Mo Johnston...
ahahah, oh man that brings me back.

For everyone pining for Tom Anselmi to be gone: yes, but the rot in this club goes pretty deep. Very ironic that the only person who is ever worthy of dismissal is the head coach. I think it's time to hold a few more people accountable as well. It took a lot more than one person to get us to where we are today.

Canary10
08-14-2012, 12:12 PM
Mariner's one shot at head coach before us didn't end very well. Not sure how that qualifies him to run our club.


It was the having to work for a bad FO that everyone hated part that qualified him for our job.....

Beach_Red
08-14-2012, 12:23 PM
So Mariner told Greg Brady and Eric Smith on Fan 590, that TFC is "3 players away from being half decent." Interesting, I think he said that before. No wait, that was Mo Johnston...

That's funny. Every MLS team is 3 players away from being a top 5 team, that's the whole point of this league...;)

Super
08-14-2012, 12:26 PM
That's funny. Every MLS team is 3 players away from being a top 5 team, that's the whole point of this league...;)

Or one good coach away.

Beach_Red
08-14-2012, 12:29 PM
ahahah, oh man that brings me back.

For everyone pining for Tom Anselmi to be gone: yes, but the rot in this club goes pretty deep. Very ironic that the only person who is ever worthy of dismissal is the head coach. I think it's time to hold a few more people accountable as well. It took a lot more than one person to get us to where we are today.

This might be one of the ways in which Ensco means that we get what we deserve. The team never had a proper FO from the beginning but it took us six years to look beyond the inexperienced, in-over-its-head management. Every "Mo must Go" sign that was put up must have made Anselmi laugh.

T-boy
08-14-2012, 01:50 PM
That's funny. Every MLS team is 3 players away from being a top 5 team, that's the whole point of this league...;)

It's an interesting point. I'd agree...yes we ARE 3 players away. But then again, we have always been around 2 or 3 players away from being in the play offs.

The problem is - if you are always a couple of players short, in the MLS it isn't as simple as "lets go and buy X player for $3m" like in all other soccer leagues. In the MLS, you HAVE to exchange/barter/swap something that you already have to get better players. OR, if you can find a player to join the league from outside, you need the cap space or allocation space, which usually arrives when you swap a player with another MLS team.

So it goes back to year one with TFC. TFC have NEVER had a decent centre back. TFC have NEVER had a consistent top goalscorer (other than Koev's for half a season). That's two important parts of the spine of the team that have been missing since the club began. But to GET those two players, you always need to swap something out or give something away. TFC were NEVER set up properly in the first season, and have been chasing ever since to get the squad they need.

ag futbol
08-14-2012, 02:03 PM
This might be one of the ways in which Ensco means that we get what we deserve. The team never had a proper FO from the beginning but it took us six years to look beyond the inexperienced, in-over-its-head management. Every "Mo must Go" sign that was put up must have made Anselmi laugh.
Oh sure, but we as the customers can't tell them how to run their business, they have to figure that out on their own. Fan ire may center around certain people due to a lack of results, but they are the ones who have to sift through it all and make sense of it. Asking the fans as a collective to analyze a team, break down what's wrong, and point to the way forward? That will never work.

Beach_Red
08-14-2012, 02:29 PM
Oh sure, but we as the customers can't tell them how to run their business, they have to figure that out on their own. Fan ire may center around certain people due to a lack of results, but they are the ones who have to sift through it all and make sense of it. Asking the fans as a collective to analyze a team, break down what's wrong, and point to the way forward? That will never work.

And yet we try. People make banners and organize protests and go to town hall meetings and buy into "culture change" and all kinds of things. And management at TFC has listened to us. After every loss this board calls out individual players so management responded with the highest player turn-over of any team. And so on (I was going to give a lot more examples but it's the same boring crap over and over ;)).

T-boy
08-14-2012, 02:53 PM
We ALL think we can run the club better than management really! We are ALL fantastic at running TFC on Football Manager 2012 etc! I always win the MLS Cup in Football Manager! I just don't understand why the FO can't make it look as easy as I can on that game! :p

Canary10
08-14-2012, 03:08 PM
We ALL think we can run the club better than management really! We are ALL fantastic at running TFC on Football Manager 2012 etc! I always win the MLS Cup in Football Manager! I just don't understand why the FO can't make it look as easy as I can on that game! :p

So Earl Cochrane, you admit your trades come from Football Manager? I KNEW it!

ag futbol
08-14-2012, 03:34 PM
And yet we try. People make banners and organize protests and go to town hall meetings and buy into "culture change" and all kinds of things. And management at TFC has listened to us. After every loss this board calls out individual players so management responded with the highest player turn-over of any team. And so on (I was going to give a lot more examples but it's the same boring crap over and over ;)).
You’re absolutely right, people are out there giving their opinion and trying to get a point across about what they want to see. It’s sports though right? And in this day and age this kind of thing should be somewhat expected. I think the reaction of this fan base would be similar to many others if they were put in the same situation.

You always want to have an ear open to what your customers are saying, but you can’t just chase after feedback without thinking more broadly about the implications. If this was a way to run things, we’d all be drinking new coke right now while watching snakes on a plane. Crazy how those ideas which completely flopped were based off research companies gathered from their own customers.

Management should have an ear open to the fans' opinions, but they should have enough judgement to realize what is do-able and what’s not.

Beach_Red
08-14-2012, 03:44 PM
You’re absolutely right, people are out there giving their opinion and trying to get a point across about what they want to see. It’s sports though right? And in this day and age this kind of thing should be somewhat expected. I think the reaction of this fan base would be similar to many others if they were put in the same situation.

You always want to have an ear open to what your customers are saying, but you can’t just chase after feedback without thinking more broadly about the implications. If this was a way to run things, we’d all be drinking new coke right now while watching snakes on a plane. Crazy how those ideas which completely flopped were based off research companies gathered from their own customers.

Management should have an ear open to the fans' opinions, but they should have enough judgement to realize what is do-able and what’s not.

The genius of MLSE is cornering the market. If we want to watch pro sports we have to get it from them. If Coke had total control of the market then, yeah, we'd all be drinking New Coke.

Sure, it would be the same in any other market. Still, I remember when TFC first started people told me soccer fans were different than Leaf fans and now, six years later, I see how TFC fans are the same as Leaf fans - calling out scapegoats, proposing ridiculous one-sided trades, and so on.

It seems like MLSE decided it was easier to have a monopoly (as Ensco pointed out, MLSE keeping another NHL team out of the sport's biggest market is 'the' story the last ten years) and then give the fans what they want than put a real organization together. You can practically hear them saying, "What are the peasants rioting about today?"

Richard
08-14-2012, 03:50 PM
So Earl Cochrane, you admit your trades come from Football Manager? I KNEW it!

Haha yeh, i actaully have a hilarious picture of what managers TFC hired over the years with the AI in control. I will post a picture soon.

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/333/tfcno.jpg

So,

Sacked Winter:Sep 2012
Re-Hired Preki:Oct 2012
Sacked Preki:Oct 2013
Hired Two random dutch guys for a year each
Hired Jason Kries:Oct 2015(Actually won the supporters shield)