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View Full Version : Canadian national anthem and TFC scarfs: Your opinion?



asterix606
08-05-2012, 01:31 PM
I wanted to get other fans opinion on this subject:


I find it disrespectful to the Canadian national anthem when people lift their TFC scarfs.

- The national anthem should be listened (and chanted if you wish) with your arms down by your side.
- The national anthem has nothing to do with TFC, and more importantly TFC has nothing to do with our anthem. It is a sports team run by a business conglomerate.
-We remove our hats during the anthem. Why lift a sports team scarf during the sacred process?

Respect must be given back to the national anthem at TFC games!

Should we not be raising our scarfs proudly after the completion of the anthem?

TFC07
08-05-2012, 01:34 PM
I think it's stupid to play national anthems for a club game in general.

Save national anthems when Canada plays.

Richard
08-05-2012, 01:35 PM
I think it's stupid to play national anthems for a club game in general.

Save national anthems when Canada plays.

I agree, especially NHL and NBA games.

colman1860
08-05-2012, 02:24 PM
You acknowledge that the anthem has nothing to do with TFC. Make the next obvious logical step to realizing that it's completely unnecessary at club games.

asterix606
08-05-2012, 02:55 PM
You acknowledge that the anthem has nothing to do with TFC. Make the next obvious logical step to realizing that it's completely unnecessary at club games.

For sure! I'm with all of you when it comes to not playing the anthem. But, I doubt that they will stop playing the anthem at NHL, NBA and MLS games. But the anthem is also a great way to get the atmosphere up!

I just wish that fans would respect the anthem and not raise their scarfs during the duration of it.

james
08-05-2012, 04:08 PM
seriosuly your making to big of a deal. I dont care if people want to raise there scarfs or not. Scarfs have been held up durring the national anthem since day 1 at BMO field, fans show pride in there team by waving flags, holding scarfs up exc. i mean we are at a soccer game here to watch TFC. If you are offended by this then you are seriously putting to much thought into it and thats your own problem because no one is doing it to be disraspectful, they are just having fun and excited about the game coming up. However i do agree the national anthem is not needed for club games, national anthem is over done in this country, CFL games, NHL, NBA, MLB, MLS....over kill. Its a bit much , but overall its not really a big deal for me if they keep the anthem or not!

Wolfe
08-05-2012, 06:42 PM
I agree, I have never and will never raise my scarf. I was taught at a young age to remove my hat stand straight with my arms at my side or on my heart and STFU. I can't believe how many disrespectful fucks there are in this country and ML$E doesn't help

mowe
08-05-2012, 06:56 PM
I can't believe how many disrespectful fucks there are in this country and ML$E doesn't help

To be fair, the people who raise their scarf aren't doing it to be disrespectful. Some people just see it as a show of pride.

But yeah, add me to the petition to remove the national anthem from club games. Won't happen though, no one wants to be labeled treasonous.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
08-05-2012, 07:03 PM
this thread is useless!

PAOK17
08-05-2012, 07:26 PM
The thing is, I don't even understand how it gets the atmosphere going at a club game! It's one thing before a national team match but to have it played for a match in which there could potentially be no Canadians in the game (or perhaps more for the visiting team, etc.)??? What does Torsten Frings think when he hears Oh Canada? It won't pump him up.

However, I'm sure we are in the minority for wanting no anthems. There are a lot of people who will say they want it for no other reason (because they can't think of a good one) than "It's tradition" to have it played in North America. I mean just consider how there is a collective effort made by the supporter groups to start singing Oh Canada for CCL matches. Even though the team we are playing is Mexican or American, it's still silly to have it for a club match.

I'd much rather have a team song...whether it's an already existing song like how many English teams adapt them (ie You will never walk alone) or an original one. I'm no Liverpool fan, but I have a funny feeling that their players respond better to hearing that than ours will ever to Oh Canada.

Yagbod
08-05-2012, 08:08 PM
So someone, a long time ago, decided it was disrespectful to wear a hat or lift your arms during a national anthem. This 'fashion' caught on and now someone else is telling me how to behave.

I think it is disrespectful to not celebrate your nation by not waving your arms or a flag or a scarf.

Who is right? 50 years from now there maybe someone lecturing my decedents for not waving their scarf during an anthem. Traditions and actions are as organic as the people who exercise them.

You want to follow old customs? Knock yourself out. Just keep your old religion to yourself.

Abou Sky
08-05-2012, 08:21 PM
If they removed the National Anthem at club games I would do the same as I do at CONCACAF, sing anyway.

I think that it is a show of pride.

I consider myself a nationalist, part of the reason I think Canada is so cool is that I can be a nationalist without being a racist.

Anyway, I sing the anthem at all opportunities. Any time my boys are late to school I stop them, and any other kid (sometimes teachers... Grrr...) to sing.

khso11
08-06-2012, 12:05 AM
It's not gonna change, it doesn't matter, we did this since day one, it's our tradition, I will do it at every TFC game.

TOBOR !
08-06-2012, 01:11 AM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Cashcleaner
08-06-2012, 02:16 AM
You see, the problem I have with some of these arguments against the anthem, is that often the differing view boils down to something along the lines of: "Well, in England/France/Spain/Italy/Germany they don't sing the anthems for domestic league matches, therefore to be proper soccer fans we shouldn't either". (Please note, I'm not saying that's what the reason is for everyone, but what I hear the most.)

Anyways, that line of thinking doesn't work for me for a few reasons. Firstly, the tradition of singing the anthems in North America is far more relevant to us than any tradition of NOT singing the anthems. What I've been taught is the practice was unique to Canada and the US and goes back to the days of World War I when the anthem was played for all sorts of public gatherings. That is to say, it's a uniquely Canadian/American tradition to begin with, so why would we want to drop that for something else? If it boils down to following a tradition started here or one started in Europe or elsewhere, I'm afraid I'm sticking with the home side on this one.

Secondly, as pre-game preparation and anticipation goes, the singing of the anthem doesn't seem to cause any harm. From a logistical standpoint there's no huge hassle involved in taking 4 minutes to play them prior to kick-off - especially when you consider how much time is spent on announcing the starting XIs, match officials, and other game-related details.

As for not holding up scarves, I really don't know what's going through the head of the OP. Raising the scarf is fundamentally no different than waving a flag - they are both a display of our national and local identities (consider the colours and imagery used by the club), and I can't see how any reasonable and intelligent person would construe that as something even remotely disrespectful.

RicoSuave44
08-06-2012, 06:00 AM
^^^ well said Cash

Jack
08-06-2012, 07:09 AM
I agree, I have never and will never raise my scarf. I was taught at a young age to remove my hat stand straight with my arms at my side or on my heart and STFU. I can't believe how many disrespectful fucks there are in this country and ML$E doesn't help

Surely you're not equating me holding my scarf up and singing my national anthem in full voice with me being a disrespectful fuck. It's a practice we have had at games since the beginning and MLSE sort of latched onto it. If you want to stand at attention, feel free, I'll express my pride in and love for Canada in a different way.

Flipityflu
08-06-2012, 07:35 AM
wow, bored or something. i served in the Canadian and British military, and i raise my scarf for both my anthems. if you think i'm disrespectful, i suggest you can go fuck yourself.


as for the side debate on the playing the National anthem, i like it. its distinctly North American, it gets great response, and O Canada is a fantastic song.

TFC07
08-06-2012, 07:41 AM
You see, the problem I have with some of these arguments against the anthem, is that often the differing view boils down to something along the lines of: "Well, in England/France/Spain/Italy/Germany they don't sing the anthems for domestic league matches, therefore to be proper soccer fans we shouldn't either". (Please note, I'm not saying that's what the reason is for everyone, but what I hear the most.)

Anyways, that line of thinking doesn't work for me for a few reasons. Firstly, the tradition of singing the anthems in North America is far more relevant to us than any tradition of NOT singing the anthems. What I've been taught is the practice was unique to Canada and the US and goes back to the days of World War I when the anthem was played for all sorts of public gatherings. That is to say, it's a uniquely Canadian/American tradition to begin with, so why would we want to drop that for something else? If it boils down to following a tradition started here or one started in Europe or elsewhere, I'm afraid I'm sticking with the home side on this one.

Secondly, as pre-game preparation and anticipation goes, the singing of the anthem doesn't seem to cause any harm. From a logistical standpoint there's no huge hassle involved in taking 4 minutes to play them prior to kick-off - especially when you consider how much time is spent on announcing the starting XIs, match officials, and other game-related details.

As for not holding up scarves, I really don't know what's going through the head of the OP. Raising the scarf is fundamentally no different than waving a flag - they are both a display of our national and local identities (consider the colours and imagery used by the club), and I can't see how any reasonable and intelligent person would construe that as something even remotely disrespectful.

Times have change. We rarely do this "tradition" anymore outside of sports. TFC isn't team Canada nor they represent Canada; They're representing and playing for Toronto.

Besides, some people don't like having national anthem (and other nationalistic/political issues) shove down our throats all the time at local sporting events.

[NBF]
08-06-2012, 07:57 AM
wow, bored or something. i served in the Canadian and British military, and i raise my scarf for both my anthems. if you think i'm disrespectful, i suggest you can go fuck yourself.


as for the side debate on the playing the National anthem, i like it. its distinctly North American, it gets great response, and O Canada is a fantastic song.

First of all, you dont get to tell me to fuck off you flipityfuck.g:D


Second, I agree with your second statement. Problem is I think the opposing team at BMO Field gets more pumped up over the "Star Bengal Banner" than our own team does for "O Canada". The American players I think get demoralized when the Canadian anthem is played for a Canadian team in an american league.

Suds
08-06-2012, 08:03 AM
Personally, I don't see how singing your national anthem holding a scarf is ever disrespectful. I see way more disrespectful stuff going on when the anthems are played. This would be the least of my concerns when it comes to respecting the anthem.

Huyton
08-06-2012, 08:04 AM
I like it. I think it's a great tradition. When I go to other sporting events and people just stand there, I get annoyed. Hell, at many other sporting events they show the words on a screen, with the inference that the people attending don't know the words.

There have been few moments in Toronto like the mass singing of O Canada before the first CONCACAF game four years ago.

The stadium looked impressive as hell and sounded great...it made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Standing, removing your hat, singing (loudly) and holding your scarf high is part of the game when TFC plays.

According to the Government of Canada website ( http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/symbl/anthem-eng.cfm#a11 ) regarding etiquette, the following can be found:

Etiquette during the playing of the national anthem

As a matter of respect and tradition, it is proper to stand for the playing of "O Canada" as well as for the anthem of any other nation.
It is traditional for civilian men to take off their hats during the playing of the national anthem. Women as well as children do not remove their hats on such occasions.
There is no law or behaviour governing the playing of the national anthem; it is left to the good citizenship of individuals.


There is nothing in there about standing to attention. Nothing about holding your hand over your heart. Nothing about not singing. Nothing there that says I'm a "disrespectful fuck" if I do anything other than "stand straight with my arms at my side or on my heart and STFU."

So...I will continue to Stand, Remove my hat, hold my scarf up high and sing loudly (if badly) "O Canada" whenever and wherever TFC plays.

You don't like it?

Well, let me do that most Canadian of things and say "I'm sorry you think I'm being disrepectful", and then do something unCanadian by carrying on regardless.

:canada:

Suds
08-06-2012, 08:06 AM
^^
so it's you who's always off key g:D

sully
08-06-2012, 08:08 AM
I always found it really odd that the anthems are played before every game- but I'm a "new Canadian" so I suppose it was a new concept to me. I think it should only be played when Canada are playing. To play it before every single game dissolves it's relevance in my opinion.

Actually what really bugs me re the pre-match is that the stadium announcer sounds like a constipated little girl with a speech impediment. For god sake just say the names like a normal human being...

jaahuuu
08-06-2012, 08:23 AM
Personally, I don't see how singing your national anthem holding a scarf is ever disrespectful. I see way more disrespectful stuff going on when the anthems are played. This would be the least of my concerns when it comes to respecting the anthem.I agree, holding up the scarf is nothing compared to fucking around on a smartphone or completely ignoring the anthems altogether and talking to people standing enxt to you.


Hell, at many other sporting events they show the words on a screen, with the inference that the people attending don't know the words.
I like that they do that, as a little kid that's how I learned the words to the anthems of both the US and Canada.

Huyton
08-06-2012, 08:24 AM
I always found it really odd that the anthems are played before every game- but I'm a "new Canadian" so I suppose it was a new concept to me. I think it should only be played when Canada are playing. To play it before every single game dissolves it's relevance in my opinion.

Actually what really bugs me re the pre-match is that the stadium announcer sounds like a constipated little girl with a speech impediment. For god sake just say the names like a normal human being...

You should be grateful O Canada is no longer done before movies and plays.

Carts
08-06-2012, 08:43 AM
I LOVE the fact we PROUDLY play and sing our national anthem before every match...

I hope its something that never changes at BMO, or the ACC, or my local Jr.A hockey rink in Pickering...

We come together, IN CANADA, the majority of the crowd CANADIANS, and sing our anthem together - what a wonderful thing...

The only change I would make if I was TFC, is stop the 'hold your scarf up high' announcement - not because its disrespectful (its not, we're proudly holding the scarf of a great Canadian city) but because the stadium is 50% empty during the anthem and it has no impact / sounds off...

Carts...

tfc2008
08-06-2012, 08:44 AM
this thread is useless!


This is so true you guys have nothing els todo then talking stuppid

Yagbod
08-06-2012, 08:58 AM
This is so true you guys have nothing els todo then talking stuppid

^This is a great post. Well done. "I see what you are doing there".

dupont
08-06-2012, 11:32 AM
I usually do a mash up where I sing Kanye West lyrics over the anthem to give it a new fresh twist.

MarkEightThree
08-06-2012, 11:52 AM
I don't see the problem in bringing more attention and pride to our anthem and Canada itself. When it comes to soccer in this country 90% of the time when people are showing their pride for a nation it isn't Canada, it's some other country they have links to during the World Cup and Euros. Why not strengthen the connection between soccer and Canada?

When the anthem is done at Maple Leaf games you can see the pride on people's faces. Despite screwing everything else up with the club, the Leafs usually do a great job of honoring our country and military during the anthem whether it's by bringing in a singer with some connection or having military personnel present.

flatpicker
08-06-2012, 01:04 PM
I don't have any issue with the anthem being played before games. I would also have no issue if they stopped doing it. It's nice to sing, but has no real connection to club sports. So either way, I'm fine. But as some said earlier, they need to stop telling fans to "raise your scarves up high!". First of all, we know to do this already! Being told before each match just sounds like we are at summer camp with a councillor leading us in group activities. I honestly cringe each time it's said. It's time to put an end to that bit.

james
08-06-2012, 01:13 PM
I always found it really odd that the anthems are played before every game- but I'm a "new Canadian" so I suppose it was a new concept to me. I think it should only be played when Canada are playing. To play it before every single game dissolves it's relevance in my opinion.

Actually what really bugs me re the pre-match is that the stadium announcer sounds like a constipated little girl with a speech impediment. For god sake just say the names like a normal human being...

he makes me think im at a monster truck rally or a WWE wrestling match....its rediculous. I was saying for years why can't they just get a normal guy to announce it, you can still hype people up with out going over the top like this douch bag.

james
08-06-2012, 01:26 PM
I don't see the problem in bringing more attention and pride to our anthem and Canada itself. When it comes to soccer in this country 90% of the time when people are showing their pride for a nation it isn't Canada, it's some other country they have links to during the World Cup and Euros. Why not strengthen the connection between soccer and Canada?

When the anthem is done at Maple Leaf games you can see the pride on people's faces. Despite screwing everything else up with the club, the Leafs usually do a great job of honoring our country and military during the anthem whether it's by bringing in a singer with some connection or having military personnel present.

i don't get why in NHL they barely ever let the fans just sing the national anthem tho. Maybe the odd playoff game do they let fans sing, and when they do the fans love it, they think its like the best atmosphere in the world. They should really do it more often!

Wolfe
08-06-2012, 02:18 PM
I think some are taking my comments out of context. I was saying that I don't agree with holding our scarves up during the Canadian national anthem because that in my opinion is disrespectful. The ones that leave their hats on and talk throughout the entire anthem are the ones that are disrespectful fucks.

Go ahead and hold your scarf up if that is what you want to do, just don't stand there and talk to your buddies about how drunk you were last night or some hot girl 10 rows down who is never going to talk to you let-alone sleep with you, or sign improper lyrics during O'Canada

Fort York Redcoat
08-06-2012, 05:00 PM
It wasn't MLSE that decided to ask people to raise scarves. They saw it and have perpetuated the habit.

Talking through anthems is disrespectful. I understand that NA sports have cheapened anthems a bit but that's no excuse IMO.

Holding a scarf up does not negate the respect shown by singing the anthem. I think it's more important to try and inspire people to sing it rather than shout down a newer tradition that inspires it.

Cashcleaner
08-06-2012, 11:07 PM
Times have change. We rarely do this "tradition" anymore outside of sports. TFC isn't team Canada nor they represent Canada; They're representing and playing for Toronto.

And that's fine if you're going to apply the same point-of-view across the board to include other traditional practices. But like I said, the argument often boils down to doing things the "proper traditional way" - or as I like to call it, "What my grandparents in Europe did".


Besides, some people don't like having national anthem (and other nationalistic/political issues) shove down our throats all the time at local sporting events.

Shoved down your throats? Last time I checked, nobody holds a gun to your head when the anthems are playing. You could always excuse yourself during the performance. Maybe use the washroom, go to the concessions, or just take a look around the concourse.

Or am I talking crazy here?

Ultra & Proud
08-07-2012, 09:58 AM
TFC isn't team Canada nor they represent Canada; They're representing and playing for Toronto.

I think us being the Canadian Champions for 4 years straight means with represent Canada in our federation, CONCACAF, of which MLS plays under.

Alonso
08-07-2012, 03:42 PM
The thing is, I don't even understand how it gets the atmosphere going at a club game! It's one thing before a national team match but to have it played for a match in which there could potentially be no Canadians in the game (or perhaps more for the visiting team, etc.)??? What does Torsten Frings think when he hears Oh Canada? It won't pump him up.

However, I'm sure we are in the minority for wanting no anthems. There are a lot of people who will say they want it for no other reason (because they can't think of a good one) than "It's tradition" to have it played in North America. I mean just consider how there is a collective effort made by the supporter groups to start singing Oh Canada for CCL matches. Even though the team we are playing is Mexican or American, it's still silly to have it for a club match.

I'd much rather have a team song...whether it's an already existing song like how many English teams adapt them (ie You will never walk alone) or an original one. I'm no Liverpool fan, but I have a funny feeling that their players respond better to hearing that than ours will ever to Oh Canada.


The CCL is a club match for sure, no argument there. But we are representing Canada in the tournament as the Canadian Champions so it's really the only time where it makes some sense to sing the national anthem.

My opinion is that I look forward to the anthem in the sense of what a tradition like that brings.

I also used to look forward to the naming of the starting lineups when the whole stadium would yell it out together. A distant memory now at this point. No one shows up to games before the team warm ups anymore. GA seating in the whole south end would fix this, and provide more enthusiastic fans for the supporters end. CCL is proving that General Attendance should be very seriously considered, but I digress.

TorontoPat
08-07-2012, 05:10 PM
I thought it was on very rare Occasions BMO acknowledges and plays the anthem, such as when they had the military day. Most of the time the crowd (112) just starts up singing so everyone joins in. Since it is all unofficial so to speak I see nothing wrong with displaying the TFC scarf. No different than a couple of guys in a bar that start up and sing the anthem and raise their glass, I don't get upset about it

flamehawk
08-07-2012, 06:29 PM
"Besides, some people don't like having national anthem (and other nationalistic/political issues) shove down our throats all the time at local sporting events."

Shoved down your throats? Last time I checked, nobody holds a gun to your head when the anthems are playing. You could always excuse yourself during the performance. Maybe use the washroom, go to the concessions, or just take a look around the concourse.

Or am I talking crazy here?


Well, that's what I usually do with friends. We just refuse to stand for the anthem and stand right after the anthem is played. I disagree with nationalism and patriotism. That said, sometimes, I will stand, just so that I can avoid arguing with others and explaining my position.

However, as others have stated, I just think that Toronto FC, despite the use of the maple leaf, is supposed to represent the local community, not some random lines drawn on the map by a bunch of white men in order to take ownership of others' land. Perhaps the anthem should be sung for the national team, but I really don't think it's appropriate for Toronto FC.

Commie Red
08-07-2012, 11:36 PM
"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind".
-- Albert Einstein

TFC07
08-07-2012, 11:44 PM
And that's fine if you're going to apply the same point-of-view across the board to include other traditional practices. But like I said, the argument often boils down to doing things the "proper traditional way" - or as I like to call it, "What my grandparents in Europe did".



Shoved down your throats? Last time I checked, nobody holds a gun to your head when the anthems are playing. You could always excuse yourself during the performance. Maybe use the washroom, go to the concessions, or just take a look around the concourse.

Or am I talking crazy here?

Well I sometimes do that especially when section I am sitting is empty. If it's packed, then I don't bother going because it's too much of a hassle to get back to my seat when the game starts.

I agree what flamehawk said. There's a time and place to show your pride in your country, but a club game isn't one of those places. Show it where it's appropriate (Like a Canada national soccer game).

TFC John
08-08-2012, 12:18 AM
It is an Honour to sing the national anthem of Canada. Many people have spent their lives defending your right to sing it and many others have given their lives in defense of your right to sing it. If you don't understand how incredibly fortunate you are to live here you should go visit some of the shithole countries around the world that are full of people who would trade places with you in a heartbeat. You should sing our anthem every morning when you wake up and you should sing it every night before you go to sleep. Singing the anthem should be your way of saying thank-you to every man and woman who have made Canada what it is and it should be your promise to join their ranks and make your own contribution to this great country. It may not be perfect and there are certainly plenty of ways you could help to make it better, but try making a list of places that you would rather live and then make a list of places you wouldn't want to live. I garuntee that the first list will be much shorter than the second. Hold your scarf up or don't hold it up: neither one is right or wrong. But don't forget for one second that you are one of the luckiest people on the planet simply because you can claim our national anthem as your own. And if you do forget that fact it is only because this country is such a great place that it allows you the luxury to forget these things. Now stand up and sing!

Fort York Redcoat
08-08-2012, 06:40 AM
Well, that's what I usually do with friends. We just refuse to stand for the anthem and stand right after the anthem is played. I disagree with nationalism and patriotism. That said, sometimes, I will stand, just so that I can avoid arguing with others and explaining my position.

However, as others have stated, I just think that Toronto FC, despite the use of the maple leaf, is supposed to represent the local community, not some random lines drawn on the map by a bunch of white men in order to take ownership of others' land. Perhaps the anthem should be sung for the national team, but I really don't think it's appropriate for Toronto FC.

Interesting. I'm pretty sure it was the same kind of men who drew lines on a map to determine what was "Toronto" but if you want to believe you're supporting community in one instance but not an evil government in another go right ahead. That's a freedom you have here.

Politics and sport are strange bedfellows. When I support Canada in football does it mean I support every decision my leaders have ever made? Does it mean I love Rob Ford because I support Toronto FC?

I hope to celebrate the best in us as a community, a city, and a Country when I sing for both club and Country.

bigredone
08-08-2012, 07:04 AM
We follow Canadians careers through the football world proudly. We (most of us) love it when Canadian boys are running around bmo in a red jersey.

Should the anthem not be played before Canadian Championship games? Are you worried about a spontaneous burst of triumph of the will.

Nationalism does not equate to patriotism. This conversation reminds me of the comments about the TFC Academy eagle.

eustacchio
08-08-2012, 08:35 AM
It's my favourite song.

flamehawk
08-08-2012, 10:17 AM
Interesting. I'm pretty sure it was the same kind of men who drew lines on a map to determine what was "Toronto" but if you want to believe you're supporting community in one instance but not an evil government in another go right ahead. That's a freedom you have here.

Politics and sport are strange bedfellows. When I support Canada in football does it mean I support every decision my leaders have ever made? Does it mean I love Rob Ford because I support Toronto FC?

I hope to celebrate the best in us as a community, a city, and a Country when I sing for both club and Country.

Well, I see Toronto more as a localized community, made up of many people who ended up congregating in one location - which also obviously was the result of colonialism (both in this country and abroad). By localized I mean to say that inclusion in the community, at least in concept (though not necessarily in practice), is based on living in the community and interacting with others within it. This is a much more fluid concept that nationalist imagined communities, with exclusionary criteria for inclusion - whether it is immigration or assumptions rooted in superiority (I remember a debate we had on this board 4,5 years ago regarding 'supporting the troops' and patriotism). So, for me, it's not really an equating of government with community that irks me, its the very concept of the nationstate. The singing of the anthem is a political act, and yet it is seen as so self-evident and unproblematic (I was made to sing "O Canada" every week growing up in Hong Kong). Anyways, apologies in advance if I derail the conversation.

VoxPopuliCosmicum
08-08-2012, 10:40 AM
This thread (like most of its predecessors on the same general subject matter) is destined to go down in flames. Not that I don't enjoy the conversation (although it's been had here many, many times before), but now that we're into the respect-individual-liberty vs. Canada-is-free-so-you-should-be-forced-to-sing-about-it exchange, hopefully it's only a few minutes til a mod puts us out of our misery.

Roca
08-08-2012, 05:54 PM
"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind".
-- Albert Einstein




This

Cashcleaner
08-08-2012, 11:50 PM
Well, I see Toronto more as a localized community, made up of many people who ended up congregating in one location - which also obviously was the result of colonialism (both in this country and abroad). By localized I mean to say that inclusion in the community, at least in concept (though not necessarily in practice), is based on living in the community and interacting with others within it. This is a much more fluid concept that nationalist imagined communities, with exclusionary criteria for inclusion - whether it is immigration or assumptions rooted in superiority (I remember a debate we had on this board 4,5 years ago regarding 'supporting the troops' and patriotism). So, for me, it's not really an equating of government with community that irks me, its the very concept of the nationstate. The singing of the anthem is a political act, and yet it is seen as so self-evident and unproblematic (I was made to sing "O Canada" every week growing up in Hong Kong). Anyways, apologies in advance if I derail the conversation.

Wait. Why did you have to sing O Canada when you were growing up in Hong Kong?

Cashcleaner
08-09-2012, 12:03 AM
"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind".
-- Albert Einstein



He was, of course, referring to the upsurge of violent and chaotic nationalism that was taking place in Europe at time and the bloody regimes which formed. Regimes such as the Nzis which would place a bounty on his head for being a Jewish intellectual. Einstein was evidently okay with American And British Nationalism when he defected to those countries and relayed information on Germany's nuclear weapon program and other state scientific secrets.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/Einstein-cartoon1.jpg/548px-Einstein-cartoon1.jpg

He ended becoming an American citizen in 1940. And I'd wager he probably stood up for the anthem whenever he heard it.

bigredone
08-09-2012, 07:36 AM
That picture is amazing. The power it has.

So how can we make this picture more for TFC. PM holding the sword and on the sword is written Hassli? Perhaps the wings are JDG? The world peace sign could be an RPB standard. Does anyone have the skills to do that?

Brooker
08-09-2012, 08:10 AM
I wanted to get other fans opinion on this subject:


I find it disrespectful to the Canadian national anthem when people lift their TFC scarfs.

- The national anthem should be listened (and chanted if you wish) with your arms down by your side.
- The national anthem has nothing to do with TFC, and more importantly TFC has nothing to do with our anthem. It is a sports team run by a business conglomerate.
-We remove our hats during the anthem. Why lift a sports team scarf during the sacred process?

Respect must be given back to the national anthem at TFC games!

Should we not be raising our scarfs proudly after the completion of the anthem?


I agree, I have never and will never raise my scarf. I was taught at a young age to remove my hat stand straight with my arms at my side or on my heart and STFU. I can't believe how many disrespectful fucks there are in this country and ML$E doesn't help

http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/kaelasgifsandcrap/gifs/vxdu7r.gif


Surely you're not equating me holding my scarf up and singing my national anthem in full voice with me being a disrespectful fuck. It's a practice we have had at games since the beginning and MLSE sort of latched onto it. If you want to stand at attention, feel free, I'll express my pride in and love for Canada in a different way.

Omg Jack stop being a disrespectful fuck! Have you no shame? How do you sleep at night? Handful of sleeping pills no doubt.

bigredone
08-09-2012, 08:50 AM
The terrorists are winning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

flamehawk
08-09-2012, 08:57 AM
Wait. Why did you have to sing O Canada when you were growing up in Hong Kong?

I went to a Canadian school .. kinda self-imposed colonialism I suppose - like we'd get in trouble for speaking Cantonese, but Western schooling would provide more future career/economic opportunities etc.

flamehawk
08-09-2012, 09:04 AM
He was, of course, referring to the upsurge of violent and chaotic nationalism that was taking place in Europe at time and the bloody regimes which formed. Regimes such as the Nzis which would place a bounty on his head for being a Jewish intellectual. Einstein was evidently okay with American And British Nationalism when he defected to those countries and relayed information on Germany's nuclear weapon program and other state scientific secrets.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/Einstein-cartoon1.jpg/548px-Einstein-cartoon1.jpg

He ended becoming an American citizen in 1940. And I'd wager he probably stood up for the anthem whenever he heard it.

Any citations regarding that? Choosing to defect or immigrate out of safety or economic concerns can't exactly be equated with a support of that form of nationalism? In the same way many Spanish anarchists escaped to countries like Cuba and Mexico after the Spanish Civil War, I doubt choosing to go to a country can be equated with a support for borders and nation-states. It seems more like a reflection of the current state of the world/necessity.

In fact, that Einstein quote appeared in his writings calling for an end to nation-states, and for a global socialist government (not something I necessarily agree with but his critique is what is helpful). So, it doesn't seem to really support your view on it.

http://www.federalunion.org.uk/albert-einstein/

Derko
08-09-2012, 10:16 AM
I hold my scarf up and sing the Canadian National Athem proudly, I also remove my cap and respectfully stand silently during all other National Anthems. I don't find it offensive holding my scarf up, during the anthem, but to each his own.

T-boy
08-09-2012, 10:25 AM
I think its all down to where you were brought up. All Canadians have gone through high school standing and singing their national anthems every day in class. Patriotism is intrinsic to most Canadian's. For myself, growing up in England, patriotism is almost shunned. We NEVER sung our national anthem at school, let alone at a club level sporting event! So, for people not growing up in Canada or the US, singing a national enthem before a TFC probably seems alien and pointless. But to Canadian's/American's, singing the national anthem is all part of the course.

I personally respectfully take my hat off for the national anthems at TFC games. I rarely take my scarf to summer games though.

jabbronies
08-09-2012, 10:41 AM
Sinclair and Tancredi are the WNT. Back line did a great job as well, still shaky though

if our mids could strengthen up, we'd be top 5 for sure.

james
08-09-2012, 04:10 PM
I think its all down to where you were brought up. All Canadians have gone through high school standing and singing their national anthems every day in class. Patriotism is intrinsic to most Canadian's. For myself, growing up in England, patriotism is almost shunned. We NEVER sung our national anthem at school, let alone at a club level sporting event! So, for people not growing up in Canada or the US, singing a national enthem before a TFC probably seems alien and pointless. But to Canadian's/American's, singing the national anthem is all part of the course.

I personally respectfully take my hat off for the national anthems at TFC games. I rarely take my scarf to summer games though.

I lived in England for 2 years, the rest was in Canada. I realized how they never sing the anthem unless its at a team England game over there. I never herd it anywhere else. The sad thing about not singing the anthem at school was most people actually don't even know the anthem at all, more so then over here anyways. I find that a bit sad, and kids growing up in England should at least know the anthem, its part of the countries identity. But the fact that we do sing the anthem at school everyday, sing it at every sporting even and other ocassions i thought singing it at every TFC game wasn't really needed, maybe save it for Team Canada games. But if they choose to keep it, its fine with me to, i am not that bothered either way!

Cashcleaner
08-10-2012, 01:33 AM
Any citations regarding that? Choosing to defect or immigrate out of safety or economic concerns can't exactly be equated with a support of that form of nationalism? In the same way many Spanish anarchists escaped to countries like Cuba and Mexico after the Spanish Civil War, I doubt choosing to go to a country can be equated with a support for borders and nation-states. It seems more like a reflection of the current state of the world/necessity.

In fact, that Einstein quote appeared in his writings calling for an end to nation-states, and for a global socialist government (not something I necessarily agree with but his critique is what is helpful). So, it doesn't seem to really support your view on it.

http://www.federalunion.org.uk/albert-einstein/

Well that's sorta the point. The world isn't so black-and-white, but varying shades of grey. The extreme form of nationalism that was going on in Europe was a real threat to his life, so he left for place where nationalism still obviously existed, but not in such a violently bloody form. Evidently, he was comfortable enough with American culture despite the flagwaving and other displays of patriotism because he would go on to take the oath of citizenship and wrote many positive things about being an American.

You're absolutely right in that Einstein had a deep-rooted mistrust toward any sort of government or leader that demanded lock-step allegiance or loyalty - again, he was a Jewish intellectual living in Europe in the 1920s and early 30s and saw first-hand where the continent was going, but I simply don't think he would disprove of signing an anthem at a sporting match.

RC8
08-10-2012, 03:34 PM
I think its all down to where you were brought up. All Canadians have gone through high school standing and singing their national anthems every day in class. Patriotism is intrinsic to most Canadian's. For myself, growing up in England, patriotism is almost shunned. We NEVER sung our national anthem at school, let alone at a club level sporting event! So, for people not growing up in Canada or the US, singing a national enthem before a TFC probably seems alien and pointless. But to Canadian's/American's, singing the national anthem is all part of the course.

I personally respectfully take my hat off for the national anthems at TFC games. I rarely take my scarf to summer games though.

I'm not Canadian and probably never will be. Yet I sing the Canadian national anthem proudly, for this country and its people are incredibly inclusive and well-spirited. You see, patriotism is merely being proud of what has been accomplished and built together over generations in a particular geographical location where you happen to have made your own contribution.

Don't let fascist idiots ruin that for you. I have 3 nationalities and live in a country that isn't any of the 3. I understand patriotism as a both a celebration and duty to care for your extended community. I think joining in to sing the anthem and raise a flag every once in a while is a healthy practice.

Wolfe
08-11-2012, 08:31 PM
sinclair and tancredi are the wnt. Back line did a great job as well, still shaky though

if our mids could strengthen up, we'd be top 5 for sure.


troll!!! Hijacker!!!

Huyton
08-11-2012, 09:24 PM
It's my favourite song.

There was a tale, possibly apocryphal, that when the Canada-Russia series hockey series occurred in 1972, that on at least one occasion the two teams got together and tried to get to know each other - brothers on ice, as it were. The Soviets sang Russian songs and had hoped for an exchange.

The only Canadian song the english speaking contingent of the team knew was O Canada.

I found that incredibly sad. I wondered how you could go through primary and middle schools, where music was supposed to be part of your education and not know a single song about Canada.

I wonder what percentage of the adult population of Canada could even sing O Canada?

Blizzard
08-11-2012, 09:40 PM
I think its all down to where you were brought up. All Canadians have gone through high school standing and singing their national anthems every day in class. Patriotism is intrinsic to most Canadian's. For myself, growing up in England, patriotism is almost shunned. We NEVER sung our national anthem at school, let alone at a club level sporting event! So, for people not growing up in Canada or the US, singing a national enthem before a TFC probably seems alien and pointless. But to Canadian's/American's, singing the national anthem is all part of the course.

I personally respectfully take my hat off for the national anthems at TFC games. I rarely take my scarf to summer games though.

Heck, in one year at Hollywood PS in Willowdale, we sang O Canada and God Save The Queen. (Mrs. Jackson's grade 3 class I think it was.)

Huyton
08-11-2012, 10:21 PM
Heck, in one year at Hollywood PS in Willowdale, we sang O Canada and God Save The Queen. (Mrs. Jackson's grade 3 class I think it was.)

Hopefully not the Sex Pistols version...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z2M_hpoPwk

jabbronies
08-12-2012, 07:56 AM
troll!!! Hijacker!!!

lol - that's what happens when you try and juggle multiple threads in a browser! Shit gets mixed up!

Nomad
08-13-2012, 09:17 AM
Thank God i'm a separatist!

Detroit_TFC
08-13-2012, 03:10 PM
Thank God i'm a separatist!


You only sing when you are alone? ;)

Huyton
08-13-2012, 03:54 PM
You only sing when you are alone? ;)

Indeed...Nomad is an island.