TFC @ Chicago Fire Saturday, August 4th @ 8:30pm on GOLTV

[denime]

---------------Kocic----------------

Henry---Eckersley---Emory---Morgan

------------Frings------------------

Lambe---------------------Dunfield

-------------Silva-----------------

--------Hassli---- Johnson---------


Subs: Hall,Williams,Amarikwa,Wiedeman,Avila,F.Hall



TFC 2-1 Fire

[Canary10]

If we lose this game, any last glimmer of hope for the playoffs are (un)officially finished.

[Super]

Play-offs? Time to bring out our dear friend who comes by every season.

http://tshirtgroove.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/boobies-calculator-t-shirt.jpg

[KGH]

Injury report:

TORONTO FC -- OUT: GK Stefan Frei (L lower leg); FW Danny Koevermans (L knee ACL tear); DF Matt Stinson (R quadriceps strain); QUESTIONABLE: FW Eric Hassli (R ankle sprain)

CHICAGO FIRE -- OUT: DF Cory Gibbs (R knee meniscus repair); DF Steven Kinney (R groin strain)

[Richard]

Anyone know whats going on with Dicoy? Still recovering i presume.

[gracos]

so our last game we lost 2-0 to Houston, well NYRB have lost as well, so it might not be so bad, and with a midweek confidence boost, I expect a win by a goal, lets hope this happens

[Blizzard]

Yup. He's no there yet. Also rusty as hell as the Liverpool game showed. It would be unfair to judge him on that though considering it's been a year since he's played any meaningful minutes at a high level. Reserves minutes don't really count.

[Pookie]

I just wish Mariner/Cochrane would set realistic expectations.

In addition to Mellberg = O'Dea and Weideman being the most prolific striker of the modern era, he's offered up a dumb-ass quote in today's Sun on the eve of playing Chicago, in Chicago

“Eight weeks ago we were (1-9-0) and now we (beat) a Salvadoran team that was very, very successful (domestically),” Mariner said. “We beat (Aguila) 5-1 so I like to think we’re progressing. It’s always a massive confidence-builder for any team and any individual,”


Who are you trying to convince Mariner? This fan base has seen very clearly that CCL success does not translate into league success, despite "massive confidence". It's also been just two days since you played. Don't set the team up for failure. Set them up for success. Things like; "this is our 3rd game in 7 days but I know the lads will give it their best effort as they did on Wednesday" says relatively the same thing without setting expectations amongst the fan-base.

If you wanted to put the pressure of needing a result squarely and publicly on the shoulders of your young team, or your latest signings.... congratulations you just did it.

[ManUtd4ever]

I just wish Mariner/Cochrane would set realistic expectations.

In addition to Mellberg = O'Dea and Weideman being the most prolific striker of the modern era, he's offered up a dumb-ass quote in today's Sun on the eve of playing Chicago, in Chicago

“Eight weeks ago we were (1-9-0) and now we (beat) a Salvadoran team that was very, very successful (domestically),” Mariner said. “We beat (Aguila) 5-1 so I like to think we’re progressing. It’s always a massive confidence-builder for any team and any individual,”


Who are you trying to convince Mariner? This fan base has seen very clearly that CCL success does not translate into league success, despite "massive confidence". It's also been just two days since you played. Don't set the team up for failure. Set them up for success. Things like; "this is our 3rd game in 7 days but I know the lads will give it their best effort as they did on Wednesday" says relatively the same thing without setting expectations amongst the fan-base.

If you wanted to put the pressure of needing a result squarely and publicly on the shoulders of your young team, or your latest signings.... congratulations you just did it.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with Mariner's quote, unless you have an issue with a coach trying to boost the morale of his players. He didn't guarantee a victory today, he just said that the performance against CD Aguila was a confidence builder for the group. Any coach would have said something along those lines after a 5-1 victory in any competition.

It's just unbelievable that people can go to such lengths to criticize Mariner under any circumstances. Perhaps you should send him a memo next time so his comments to the press are worded exactly the way you would like to avoid offending your delicate sensibilities.

Even though I support Mariner, I have been critical of his lineup decisions at times. I'm under no illusions that he is the second coming of Sir Alex Ferguson. However, he has done an admirable job considering the cards he was dealt.

It would be nice if people could offer an opinion without being so blatantly biased. It's as if you are on a mission to scrutinize him to the extent that you are willing to grasp at straws if necessary to promote your agenda. It's difficult to take your commentary on Mariner seriously anymore.

[Pookie]

^ I like that Mariner is a "player's coach"

I dis-like that he sets unrealistic expectations and as a result puts pressure squarely on the players. Based on what you read, what are you expecting to happen tonight? If the team falls flat like they did v Houston, what's the quote tomorrow?

It's like when NHL players "guarantee" wins in the playoffs, or Burke says "we will make the playoffs." We all want a confident coach. But sometimes things with think on the inside should stay on the inside.

If you see no issue with the average fan thinking that O'Dea will do what Mellberg could have done, that TFC is "Level" in terms of development with Liverpool FC, that Weideman is the best finisher of the modern era and that tonight, the club will play with a massive confidence boost and we should expect a result (all statements by Mariner)... all the power to you.

For me though, that is a manager that wants his team to be confident but is setting them up publicly for a real tough challenge. When the inevitable happens and the fan realizes that they really aren't level with Liverpool and that Weideman isn't really as good as Messi, invariably the players hear it from the fans.

Doesn't seem fair... nor smart... from where I sit.

[ManUtd4ever]

^ I like that Mariner is a "player's coach"

I dis-like that he sets unrealistic expectations and as a result puts pressure squarely on the players. Based on what you read, what are you expecting to happen tonight? If the team falls flat like they did v Houston, what's the quote tomorrow?

It's like when NHL players "guarantee" wins in the playoffs, or Burke says "we will make the playoffs." We all want a confident coach. But sometimes things with think on the inside should stay on the inside.

If you see no issue with the average fan thinking that O'Dea will do what Mellberg could have done, that TFC is "Level" in terms of development with Liverpool FC, that Weideman is the best finisher of the modern era and that tonight, the club will play with a massive confidence boost and we should expect a result (all statements by Mariner)... all the power to you.

For me though, that is a manager that wants his team to be confident but is setting them up publicly for a real tough challenge. When the inevitable happens and the fan realizes that they really aren't level with Liverpool and that Weideman isn't really as good as Messi, invariably the players hear it from the fans.

Doesn't seem fair... nor smart... from where I sit.

Either you misunderstood his comments, or you have deliberately taken his remarks out of context in order to scrutinize him. For example, Mariner actually went out of his way to downplay the result against Liverpool, citing the fact they were still in pre-season form and used most of their reserve squad. He then commended his youngsters for their showing in the second half.

And for the record, Mariner never stated that O'Dea was the equivalent of Mellberg, Mariner never suggested that TFC is on par with Liverpool in the context that you presented, Mariner never said Wiedeman was the second coming of Messi, and Mariner has not guaranteed a result in Chicago tonight.

You make him sound like a bumbling fool. Give the man some credit. His background in the game demands a certain level of respect, courtesy, and dignity. He has forgotten more about the game than you will ever know.

Mariner is certainly not immune from criticism, but if you're going to be critical, at least have the decency to use something of substance and a measure of accuracy as a point of reference.

[Ultra & Proud]

^ I like that Mariner is a "player's coach"

I dis-like that he sets unrealistic expectations and as a result puts pressure squarely on the players. Based on what you read, what are you expecting to happen tonight? If the team falls flat like they did v Houston, what's the quote tomorrow?

It's like when NHL players "guarantee" wins in the playoffs, or Burke says "we will make the playoffs." We all want a confident coach. But sometimes things with think on the inside should stay on the inside.

If you see no issue with the average fan thinking that O'Dea will do what Mellberg could have done, that TFC is "Level" in terms of development with Liverpool FC, that Weideman is the best finisher of the modern era and that tonight, the club will play with a massive confidence boost and we should expect a result (all statements by Mariner)... all the power to you.

For me though, that is a manager that wants his team to be confident but is setting them up publicly for a real tough challenge. When the inevitable happens and the fan realizes that they really aren't level with Liverpool and that Weideman isn't really as good as Messi, invariably the players hear it from the fans.

Doesn't seem fair... nor smart... from where I sit.

So saying a win is a 'massive confidence booster' is the equivalent to guaranteeing a win?

I read somewhere on here you were a writer correct?

[ManUtd4ever]

Mariner: "Chicago very tough"...

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/08/03/paul-mariner-august-3-2012

Mariner's interview seems like a far cry from the characterization that he is overconfident and guaranteeing a result tonight.

[v00d00daddy]

And for the record, Mariner never stated that O'Dea was the equivalent of Mellberg, Mariner never suggested that TFC is on par with Liverpool in the context that you presented, Mariner never said Wiedeman was the second coming of Messi, and Mariner has not guaranteed a result in Chicago tonight.

You make him sound like a bumbling fool. Give the man some credit. His background in the game demands a certain level of respect, courtesy, and dignity. He has forgotten more about the game than you will ever know.

I'm sorry but you're clearly doing yourself what you're accusing Pookie of doing. You're putting words in his mouth to make him sound stupid. He never mentioned Messi. All he did was give interpretations of what Mariner said.

You choose to conclude that when Mariner calls Wiedeman "the best finisher in the modern era" it means nothing and try to make Pookie sound foolish by bringing up Messi when, in reality, Mariner is the one who sounded idiotic when he said it and Messi was never mentioned.

I think the Liverpool quote you guys are talking about is:

"It lets all the players, either the senior players or the academy players, to realize that they're not that far away from competing with some very, very good players," Mariner said. "It's a wonderful educational experience for everybody."

I have no problem with what Mariner said and I agree...what pookie said on this is an inaccurate interpretation in my opinion. That being said...Mariner's quote here rings kind of hollow when you take into consideration his quote regarding Weidemans. LOL. I'd imagine that Mariners take on what makes a "very very good player" is a pretty wide spectrum. If Weidemans can be complimented that way, and Mariner praises players like Dunfield the way he does, it makes you wonder who he thinks is a bad player. LOL

On Mellberg vs. O'Dea. All Mariner said was that we as fans would be happy with the signing. Cochrane is the one who said that "they" like O'Dea as much as they liked Mellberg.

That's open to interpretation but it's not far fetched to suggest that "they" are talking shit and expecting TFC supporters to be as satisfied with the O'Dea signing as we would have been with a Mellberg signing. Which some people have eaten up and done. LOL

So please stop talking about objectivity and bias. We all have it.

As for suggesting that Mariner is a bumbling fool....I think you'll find lots of supporters that think he does it all by himself.

Combine the stuff he says in the press with the way he behaves on the touchlines with the tactics he employs (that many find brutal) and it's not a stretch for somebody to call him a fool.

Just cause you love the guy, doesn't mean others have to abstain from being critical of him.

[ManUtd4ever]

I'm sorry but you're clearly doing yourself what you're accusing Pookie of doing. You're putting words in his mouth to make him sound stupid. He never mentioned Messi. All he did was give interpretations of what Mariner said.

You choose to conclude that when Mariner calls Wiedeman "the best finisher in the modern era" it means nothing and try to make Pookie sound foolish by bringing up Messi when, in reality, Mariner is the one who sounded idiotic when he said it and Messi was never mentioned.

I think the Liverpool quote you guys are talking about is:

"It lets all the players, either the senior players or the academy players, to realize that they're not that far away from competing with some very, very good players," Mariner said. "It's a wonderful educational experience for everybody."

I have no problem with what Mariner said and I agree...what pookie said on this is an inaccurate interpretation in my opinion. That being said...Mariner's quote here rings kind of hollow when you take into consideration his quote regarding Weidemans. LOL. I'd imagine that Mariners take on what makes a "very very good player" is a pretty wide spectrum. If Weidemans can be complimented that way, and Mariner praises players like Dunfield the way he does, it makes you wonder who he thinks is a bad player. LOL

On Mellberg vs. O'Dea. All Mariner said was that we as fans would be happy with the signing. Cochrane is the one who said that "they" like O'Dea as much as they liked Mellberg.

That's open to interpretation but it's not far fetched to suggest that "they" are talking shit and expecting TFC supporters to be as satisfied with the O'Dea signing as we would have been with a Mellberg signing. Which some people have eaten up and done. LOL

So please stop talking about objectivity and bias. We all have it.

As for suggesting that Mariner is a bumbling fool....I think you'll find lots of supporters that think he does it all by himself.

Combine the stuff he says in the press with the way he behaves on the touchlines with the tactics he employs (that many find brutal) and it's not a stretch for somebody to call him a fool.

Just cause you love the guy, doesn't mean others have to abstain from being critical of him.

I don't love Mariner, but I respect him. I have been critical of his decisions in the past that affect the results on the pitch when it's justified. I don't expect others to abstain from being critical as well. Don't mischaracterize my position to defend Pookie. And BTW, he did mention Messi, I don't make things up to support my opinion. Read his post carefully.

Once again, it's difficult to take anyone's commentary seriously when it's based on quotes that have clearly been taken out of context.

If people want to criticize his lineup decisions, his tactical approach, or anything else that has a direct influence on the competitiveness of TFC on the pitch, that makes for intriguing discussion and debates.

All this other crap is nothing but pure conjecture and nonsense, and a blatant attempt to smear the reputation of a man with a considerable pedigree in the world of football.

[Rene Kingsriver]

Either you misunderstood his comments, or you have deliberately taken his remarks out of context in order to scrutinize him. For example, Mariner actually went out of his way to downplay the result against Liverpool, citing the fact they were still in pre-season form and used most of their reserve squad. He then commended his youngsters for their showing in the second half.

And for the record, Mariner never stated that O'Dea was the equivalent of Mellberg, Mariner never suggested that TFC is on par with Liverpool in the context that you presented, Mariner never said Wiedeman was the second coming of Messi, and Mariner has not guaranteed a result in Chicago tonight.

You make him sound like a bumbling fool. Give the man some credit. His background in the game demands a certain level of respect, courtesy, and dignity. He has forgotten more about the game than you will ever know.

Mariner is certainly not immune from criticism, but if you're going to be critical, at least have the decency to use something of substance and a measure of accuracy as a point of reference.

I find it hilarious to see how Pookie has turned into an even worse version of his old enemy Roogsy, should change his username to Poogskie.

[Ultra & Proud]

I'm sorry but you're clearly doing yourself what you're accusing Pookie of doing. You're putting words in his mouth to make him sound stupid. He never mentioned Messi. All he did was give interpretations of what Mariner said.
Well he did mention Messi but who cares. He did however, interpret the words 'massive confidence boost' as meaning guaranteed win so you tell me if that's a stupid statement or not on Pookie's part.

[Thomas]

Looking forward to watch the game. I think it will be a tough slog, but hoping for points. This Mariner talk is getting tiring. Maybe open a love/hate Mariner thread, and stick to that one.

[Pookie]

Either you misunderstood his comments, or you have deliberately taken his remarks out of context in order to scrutinize him. For example, Mariner actually went out of his way to downplay the result against Liverpool, citing the fact they were still in pre-season form and used most of their reserve squad. He then commended his youngsters for their showing in the second half.

And for the record, Mariner never stated that O'Dea was the equivalent of Mellberg, Mariner never suggested that TFC is on par with Liverpool in the context that you presented, Mariner never said Wiedeman was the second coming of Messi, and Mariner has not guaranteed a result in Chicago tonight.

You make him sound like a bumbling fool. Give the man some credit. His background in the game demands a certain level of respect, courtesy, and dignity. He has forgotten more about the game than you will ever know....

Mariner is certainly not immune from criticism, but if you're going to be critical, at least have the decency to use something of substance and a measure of accuracy as a point of reference.

I use direct quotes where possible, such as this one on Weideman:

"He’s one of the best finishers I’ve seen in the modern era and I’m looking for him to really take the bull by the horns and take this opportunity.” - Paul Mariner, July 13th

It's a little funny you would suggest taking things out of context to fit an agenda when Mariner's direct quote that started this was "“Eight weeks ago we were (1-9-0) and now we (beat) a Salvadoran team that was very, very successful (domestically),” Mariner said. “We beat (Aguila) 5-1 so I like to think we’re progressing. It’s always a massive confidence-builder for any team and any individual”

In May, they were actually 3-2-2 with wins in the ACC against Vancouver and Montreal but those don't count?

As for the comments on Mellberg, if you notice I referenced Mariner/Cochrane in terms of setting expectations in my OP. The Mellberg = O'Dea reference is clearly coming from Cochrane.

In any event, I'm pretty consistent on the belief that I don't think Mariner's tactics and our direction, combined with our resource allocation and roster management will lead this team anywhere. We need a new President and that person can make the decision on Mariner.

Do I have an agenda? Sure. I don't believe in the direction we are going. I don't believe in it for reasons such as those highlighted above.

When I talk about mis-use of our roster spots, lack of scouting, abandoning the 4-3-3 direction in favour of short term results, I'm not bashing Mariner. Mariner is doing exactly what any one of us would do if given the chance to run the team. He's bringing in his guys, his coaches, setting his agenda, and playing the style he knows how to play. I can't fault a guy for wanting to win or lose on his own terms.

Where I do fault Mariner is that if he didn't believe in 4-3-3 and didn't think he could support that direction, with identifying players, etc, then he shouldn't have taken the job in the first place. Even then though, that's Anselmi's fault for hiring him.

As for the post that started this, I took the quote on "massive confidence" as yet another example of over-hype coming from Mariner/Cochrane and found it particularly pressure inducing on the eve of a game. I think this hurts the players and considering how CCL confidence hasn't make a lick of difference before, I find it something that didn't have to be said. However, this season has become about throwing bones in order to get season ticket renewals so if suggesting that they have the best finisher of the modern era or have massive confidence and we can massage the records a little to demonstrate it... well, it helps sell tickets based on hope. And that after all is the plan, IMO.

That's the point. Simple. Agree or disagree.

(For the record, I am hoping for 3 points tonight just like you)

[jloome]

I use direct quotes where possible, such as this one on Weideman:

"He’s one of the best finishers I’ve seen in the modern era and I’m looking for him to really take the bull by the horns and take this opportunity.” - Paul Mariner, July 13th

It's a little funny you would suggest taking things out of context to fit an agenda when Mariner's direct quote that started this was "“Eight weeks ago we were (1-9-0) and now we (beat) a Salvadoran team that was very, very successful (domestically),” Mariner said. “We beat (Aguila) 5-1 so I like to think we’re progressing. It’s always a massive confidence-builder for any team and any individual”

In May, they were actually 3-2-2 with wins in the ACC against Vancouver and Montreal but those don't count?

As for the comments on Mellberg, if you notice I referenced Mariner/Cochrane in terms of setting expectations in my OP. The Mellberg = O'Dea reference is clearly coming from Cochrane.

In any event, I'm pretty consistent on the belief that I don't think Mariner's tactics and our direction, combined with our resource allocation and roster management will lead this team anywhere. We need a new President and that person can make the decision on Mariner.

Do I have an agenda? Sure. I don't believe in the direction we are going. I don't believe in it for reasons such as those highlighted above.

When I talk about mis-use of our roster spots, lack of scouting, abandoning the 4-3-3 direction in favour of short term results, I'm not bashing Mariner. Mariner is doing exactly what any one of us would do if given the chance to run the team. He's bringing in his guys, his coaches, setting his agenda, and playing the style he knows how to play. I can't fault a guy for wanting to win or lose on his own terms.

Where I do fault Mariner is that if he didn't believe in 4-3-3 and didn't think he could support that direction, with identifying players, etc, then he shouldn't have taken the job in the first place. Even then though, that's Anselmi's fault for hiring him.

As for the post that started this, I took the quote on "massive confidence" as yet another example of over-hype coming from Mariner/Cochrane and found it particularly pressure inducing on the eve of a game. I think this hurts the players and considering how CCL confidence hasn't make a lick of difference before, I find it something that didn't have to be said. However, this season has become about throwing bones in order to get season ticket renewals so if suggesting that they have the best finisher of the modern era or have massive confidence and we can massage the records a little to demonstrate it... well, it helps sell tickets based on hope. And that after all is the plan, IMO.

That's the point. Simple. Agree or disagree.

(For the record, I am hoping for 3 points tonight just like you)


Yeah... I disagree, on most counts.

As for the Wiedeman kid, for all you know the question he was asked was "how does he compare to other kids who came though generation adidas." And even if it was stupid, it gave the kid enough confidence for a game winner in his first game (and don't say it was a deflection because the replay showed he clearly poached it.)

As for the quote about our record, again, he's not holding a public discourse on statistical management. He's trying to use a win to motivate his troops. Given the general improvement in our record, that would seem to be important.

"In any event, I'm pretty consistent on the belief that I don't think Mariner's tactics and our direction, combined with our resource allocation and roster management will lead this team anywhere. We need a new President and that person can make the decision on Mariner.

Do I have an agenda? Sure. I don't believe in the direction we are going."

Ah, great. Unsubstantiated belief. That's what we need more of on this board. Even if people bought every one of these arguments, he still wouldn't have been in the job long enough for any of us to reach such a complete conclusion.

I mean, really dude, we just a year suffering through Roogsy becoming more and more entrenched in positions that were marginally defensible at best. Another case probably doesn't do anyone any good.

[Yohan]

I just hope dan gargan doesnt score on us again lol

[Ultra & Proud]

When I talk about mis-use of our roster spots, lack of scouting, abandoning the 4-3-3 direction in favour of short term results, I'm not bashing Mariner. Mariner is doing exactly what any one of us would do if given the chance to run the team. He's bringing in his guys, his coaches, setting his agenda, and playing the style he knows how to play. I can't fault a guy for wanting to win or lose on his own terms.
First, where have we misused roster spots? Second, how can you comment on lack of scouting? Are you totally familiar with the full ins and outs of our scouting team? I know I'm not. Lastly, and I think I have written this ten times on here already, 4-3-3 is a formation and it has nothing to do with the system that's being played (ie. KC plays a 4-3-3 and they are 100% pure kick and chase). I wish people would comprehend that already.

And for that Mellberg = O'Dea reference, you are reading it wrong as well I believe. Cochrane doesn't say they are equal players, he said they liked them equally. Big difference. Almost as big as calling out a manager on a guaranteed win blurb when all he said was that our players had a confidence boost and are progressing.

Sadly, we could nearly win out the rest of the season, qualify for the playoffs, and win the MLS Cup and I guarantee some people would still complain about the 4-3-3, our system, no future, hoofball, and other inane drivelings.

[Pookie]

First, where have we misused roster spots? Second, how can you comment on lack of scouting? Are you totally familiar with the full ins and outs of our scouting team? I know I'm not. Lastly, and I think I have written this ten times on here already, 4-3-3 is a formation and it has nothing to do with the system that's being played (ie. KC plays a 4-3-3 and they are 100% pure kick and chase). I wish people would comprehend that already.

I am not going to write again on the fact that only 9 Canadians work in the entire USA, while we give up US Superdraft picksfans rely on stocking the roster with largely un-tradable assets. I have made it a point to become as well versed as I can with respect to our local/US and International scouting efforts. I belonged to one of the first TFC-A CAP clubs and saw first hand what we had locally. Internationally, I'll offer a tidbit. Check out wyscout.com and explain why we wouldn't want to be a part of something like that.

As for formation, 4-3-3 is simply a "catch phrase" to me to describe attacking possession minded football. My beef has always been that Klinsmann gave us the plan that the US Soccer Federation is mobilizing towards. US Academies are developing their players in this philosophy. MLS First Teams are adopting this style. We aren't. That's a problem for both future competition, for Mariner and his fit with this team over the long term, and for the kids we are supposedly trying to develop for professional careers. They are learning a way of thinking, Forward First, that is not in demand for the market they are going to enter. That is a shame.


And for that Mellberg = O'Dea reference, you are reading it wrong as well I believe. Cochrane doesn't say they are equal players, he said they liked them equally.

Ah, so if given a choice between which of the two he wanted... "either or" would be an answer?


Sadly, we could nearly win out the rest of the season, qualify for the playoffs, and win the MLS Cup and I guarantee some people would still complain about the 4-3-3, our system, no future, hoofball, and other inane drivelings.

Given where the league is going, I really don't think you'll have to worry about that.




Ah, great. Unsubstantiated belief. That's what we need more of on this board. Even if people bought every one of these arguments, he still wouldn't have been in the job long enough for any of us to reach such a complete conclusion.

I mean, really dude, we just a year suffering through Roogsy becoming more and more entrenched in positions that were marginally defensible at best. Another case probably doesn't do anyone any good.

If you can see a map and know the direction you are going, is it unsubstantiated opinion to highlight that there are known bumps along the road?

Generally speaking, those who are sounding alarm bells point to specific things. My concern over abandoning 4-3-3 is related to the documented fact that Klinsmann is essentially moving the US Soccer Federation to his vision. It's related to the documented fact that many MLS Academies and First Teams are following the Total Football model. DC United in particular has made a point of saying they are following the Ajax approach. When parents connected with TFC Academy suggest that they are changing direction based on their first hand experience and we see players that couldn't play 4-3-3 (ie. Hassli) picked up because they are better suited to our Forward First models, I think it is pretty clear that there is more to it than just "unsubstantiated opinion"

If looking at a map on the road to where we are going causes discomfort, that's an individual choice. We all create our realities. If someone wants to believe that Mariner has the players playing with confidence, something that was supposedly missing when they went 8-3-5 through August of last year, so be it. None of us can predict the future. That said, IMO, there are clear signs that the future is going to be difficult under the current plan. Acknowledge it, debate it, challenge it... but don't dismiss it.

Look, I'll back off this on these boards as I lived through the Roogsy-era and I do not want to take away from the group.

[ManUtd4ever]

I will go out on a limb and suggest that by the time "Total Football" takes a firm hold in MLS and the current crop of youth prospects in Academies across the league are ready to play at the senior level, Mariner will no longer be on the sidelines. It will take several years for Klinsmann's vision to come to fruition for the USMNT and various clubs in MLS.

Paul Mariner was hired to make this team competitive in the immediate future, not five or more years into the future. The top teams in MLS at the moment (ie. San Jose, Houston) are clubs that play a conventional, direct, counter attacking style similar to Mariner's tactical approach.

At this juncture, TFC cannot afford to implement a long term plan that will pay dividends in several years while the first team is mired in futility in the interim. There will be no supporters left by the time the first team is able to execute the system effectively.

Let's worry about the here and now, shall we?

Furthermore, there is no reason to suspect that a change in formations in of itself at the Academy level will stunt the technical development of any of our prospects. As long as the practice drills remain consistent, which is currently the case, our young players will be able to adapt to various formations and still play possession based football in the future. Denime is very familiar with the Academy, and even he acknowledged that despite the change to the 4-4-2 formation, our youngsters are still being encouraged to play possession based football, not 80's "hoof ball".

I was at the Liverpool friendly, and our kids in the second half were lined up in 4-4-1-1, yet they controlled possession better than our first team.

[Ultra & Proud]

As for formation, 4-3-3 is simply a "catch phrase" to me to describe attacking possession minded football.

I didn't go and study our stats but haven't we scored more goals (on average) in the Mariner era than we did in the Winter attacking/possession one? I know in 2012 for sure we scored more with Mariner than in Winter's first 10 matches.

And you should think up a more appropriate catch phrase for attacking/possession minded football because teams don't need to play 4-3-3 to do it.

[ManUtd4ever]

I didn't go and study our stats but haven't we scored more goals (on average) in the Mariner era than we did in the Winter attacking/possession one? I know in 2012 for sure we scored more with Mariner than in Winter's first 10 matches.

And you should think up a more appropriate catch phrase for attacking/possession minded football because teams don't need to play 4-3-3 to do it.

We've had more than double the offensive production, and our goal differential is respectable.

[Ultra & Proud]

I will go out on a limb and suggest that by the time "Total Football" takes firm hold in MLS and the current crop of youth prospects in Academies accross the league are ready to play at the senior level, Mariner will no longer be on the sidelines. It will take several years for Klinsmann's vision to come to fruition for the USMNT and various clubs in MLS.

I don't think that's going out on a limb at all. I think it will take a footballing generation (as in getting the plumbers and older players out of the league) to get it flowing properly and completely. Minimum 5 years I'd bet across the board. Probably more. By then our Academy should be ready as I recall Rongen and De Klerk saying it would take 5 years to really see the effects of the academy and that was a while ago. As far as that goes I would say we are ahead of the game. And Mariner will be long gone by then. Most likely, if Dichio keeps the CSL Academy team playing as well as they have been, then he will probably be up here managing the first team and implementing the same system used down there as a bulk of our squad will probably be graduates of that Academy.

Then people will say the Dichio hiring was for more season seat sales and so they can jack up ticket prices.

[Ultra & Proud]

But back to the game at hand.

Will be a tough one tonight but I see us scratching this one out but I bet the last 25 minutes or so will be really ugly. Probably a lot like the New England match. I say 2-1 us with Lambe and Hassli getting the goals for us and Rolfe getting one the other way.

[OgtheDim]

I can't see Hassli starting. But I can see him scoring in the second half.

[Pookie]

But back to the game at hand.



I want to be proved wrong. Here's my best guess going in

Score: Chicago 2 Toronto 1

Chicago Toronto


14
Attempts on Goal
9







46%
Duels Won %
54%







80%
Passing Accuracy %
68%


62%
Possession
38%

[Pookie]

I didn't go and study our stats but haven't we scored more goals (on average) in the Mariner era than we did in the Winter attacking/possession one? I know in 2012 for sure we scored more with Mariner than in Winter's first 10 matches.


It kind of depends on what set of stats you want to use.

Vs 2012 MLS season under Winter, absolutely

Vs "Post DP Arrival Period" 2011 under Winter? Say his last 11 MLS games of the 2011 season? Winter's side had 17 GF and 19 GA in MLS play. Over his 11 games, Mariner has 16 GF and 18 GA. Pretty much equal.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

Hoping we see Hassli tonight. That said I guess it will be tough for Mariner to break up the Silva -- Johnson paring if it keeps working.

[jloome]

It kind of depends on what set of stats you want to use.

Vs 2012 MLS season under Winter, absolutely

Vs "Post DP Arrival Period" 2011 under Winter? Say his last 11 MLS games of the 2011 season? Winter's side had 17 GF and 19 GA in MLS play. Over his 11 games, Mariner has 16 GF and 18 GA. Pretty much equal.

Of course, if "post DP arrival period" actually counted towards now, he'd still be employed.

One of the issues with marking Winter's record against Mariner's is that Winter got significantly more CCL games than Mariner has had, and a possession-oriented team is going to do well in CCL, where all but the Mexican and Costa Rican teams are usually weaker than MLS anyway.

[dantdot]

XI: Kocic; Henry, Eckersley, Emory, Morgan; Lambe, Frings, Dunfield, Silva; Johnson, Hassli

[Richard]

XI: Kocic; Henry, Eckersley, Emory, Morgan; Lambe, Frings, Dunfield, Silva; Johnson, Hassli

Is O'dea allowed to play yet or does he have to pass some immigration rules?

[Super]

Is O'dea allowed to play yet or does he have to pass some immigration rules?

He will be eligible to play in our next game, but I do believe he'll be on international duty - so we'll have to wait a bit before we get to see him in action. Right now I do believe they're just waiting on his FIFA papers.

[wesvahr]

Does anyone know where you can find a live stream of the game?

[Jeffro]

Goddamn what a painful read this was, like most other threads on this board. FFS, this is a match thread, have your tit-for-tat debates somewhere else. I thought banning Roogs was supposed to put an end to this shit, looks like he was only a part of the problem.

Interesting, Hassli gets the start, looking forward to seeing how he'll fit in with the squad. I'm hopeful we can get a win tonight, 2-1 TFC.

[rocktml]

what he said

[dantdot]

Does anyone know where you can find a live stream of the game?

http://atdhenet.tv/48875/watch-chicago-fire-vs-toronto-fc
http://www.thefirstrow.eu/watch/133916/1/watch-chicago-fire-vs-toronto-fc.html

[jloome]

Goddamn what a painful read this was, like most other threads on this board. FFS, this is a match thread, have your tit-for-tat debates somewhere else. I thought banning Roogs was supposed to put an end to this shit, looks like he was only a part of the problem.

Interesting, Hassli gets the start, looking forward to seeing how he'll fit in with the squad. I'm hopeful we can get a win tonight, 2-1 TFC.

Tough game. Chicago's current lineup is a lot stronger than the start of the season.

[Yohan]

Tough game. Chicago's current lineup is a lot stronger than the start of the season.

at least Gargan won't score on us

[wesvahr]

Cheers, thanks so much!

[Yohan]

oh fuck. stuck watching Chicago broadcast. those clowns make Dobbers look like a genius

[habstfc]

Stream?

[jloome]

Haven't held the ball for even a second yet and we're four minutes in. Astounding. We need to wake up, toute suite

[Suds]

Stream?

http://www.thefirstrow.eu/watch/133916/1/watch-chicago-fire-vs-toronto-fc.html

[Suds]

Hey TFC! You guys can start playing any minute now.

Boys need to get into this game.

[Gallade]

Johnson! that was against the flow.

[Dkolish3]

That ten seconds was the most possession we've had

[Richard]

Nice!

[Dkolish3]

Lady Luck smiles upon us!!

[Suds]

nice job taking advantage of that mistake!

[wesvahr]

I guess that proves you don't need possession to score a goal!

[Carefree]

I was on my way to the game but my car broke down near Kalamazoo, Michigan. Good thing I brought my laptop, I am now watching the game from a motel room in Kalamazoo. Got lucky though, there's a ribfest happening here this weekend. Got myself a nice souvenir t-shirt.

[Suds]

I was on my way to the game but my car broke down near Kalamazoo, Michigan. Good thing I brought my laptop, I am now watching the game from a motel room in Kalamazoo. Got lucky though, there's a ribfest happening here this weekend. Got myself a nice souvenir t-shirt.

That sucks! Sound like you're making the best of the situation though.

[Yohan]

RJ also has a rock for a head. Go RJ

[ag futbol]

I was on my way to the game but my car broke down near Kalamazoo, Michigan. Good thing I brought my laptop, I am now watching the game from a motel room in Kalamazoo. Got lucky though, there's a ribfest happening here this weekend. Got myself a nice souvenir t-shirt.
Not a bad door prize. Mmmm ribs

[Yohan]

Man. TFC defence is more sensitive than virgin pussy.

[London]

section 8 is the worsty support in mls, they have numbers but i believe the goal is to repeat the word "fire" 1000 time during every game,

the 3 chants are just a variation of " fire, fire, fire"


SO SAD

[iy12l]

Just came, anything good happened?

[Carefree]

Well it could have been a lot worse. I drove over a piece of shredded tire on I94 and it ripped something under the car and all my transmission fluid was leaking out. I probably wouldn't have noticed anything if a lady in aother car hadn't gesticulated frantically at me, saying there was smoke under my car. Then I spent about half an hour looking for a garage but everything was closed. I finally found one, but by the time they finished fixing it there was no way I could make it all the way to Chicago on time.


Despite all this I'm pretty happy because I was expecting it to be a lot worse money-wise. Plus the ribfest was a lot of fun.

[Suds]

Just came, anything good happened?

TFC 1 - Fire 0 ... Johnson with the goal against the run of play .. poached a bad back pass, quick break on net and buried it.

[Dkolish3]

Man. TFC defence is more sensitive than virgin pussy.

At least we haven't given up a goal yet just like a........

:)

[Dkolish3]

So close!

[iy12l]

unlucky...

[Yohan]

ah silva... that was nifty move but you gotta bury that

[Suds]

wow ... if we go 2 that would been harsh on the Fire

[Couchy81]

Jesus I thought we were gonna pull off an upset there. That post is gonna haunt us.

[daner90]

section 8 is the worsty support in mls, they have numbers but i believe the goal is to repeat the word "fire" 1000 time during every game,

the 3 chants are just a variation of " fire, fire, fire"


SO SAD

Gotta agree. They definitely are not as loud as in past years.

I do have to say the Tetris music they play on the trumpet is one of my favorite additions to the atmosphere in any stadium in MLS.

[London]

Gotta agree. They definitely are not as loud as in past years.

I do have to say the Tetris music they play on the trumpet is one of my favorite additions to the atmosphere in any stadium in MLS.


didn't they just copy the portland chant though??

[maxpower]

section 8 is the worsty support in mls, they have numbers but i believe the goal is to repeat the word "fire" 1000 time during every game,

the 3 chants are just a variation of " fire, fire, fire"


SO SAD

Chicago supporters, behind Seattle and Portland, are probably most into doing the TIFO stuff. Some supporters just use their creativity in different ways.

Also i'm pretty sure I heard " I just cant get enough" from them half way through the first half.

[Benficachop20]

Only time we kept the ball for more than 2 seconds we created a chance..... probably should do more of that.

[Torontotonto]

Weathered the storm for the first 20 min.
Kocic made some big saves.
Slow start but picked it up after the goal, and unlucky they didn't have another at the half.
Be nice to get another early in the 2nd half.

[iy12l]

why did lambe get subbed off so early

[Yohan]

GOTW candidate from Felipe. Mtl beat Philly 2-0. They might actually make playoffs at this rate

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-08-04-mtl-v-phi/highlights?videoID=195404

And nice hip toss by Hoppenot on Rivas

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-08-04-mtl-v-phi/highlights?videoID=195388

[jloome]

GOTW candidate from Felipe. Mtl beat Philly 2-0. They might actually make playoffs at this rate

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-08-04-mtl-v-phi/highlights?videoID=195404

And nice hip toss by Hoppenot on Rivas

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-08-04-mtl-v-phi/highlights?videoID=195388

Former TFC'er Joseph Nane just scored a nice one for Colorado, too.

[jloome]

why did lambe get subbed off so early

Wasn't really in the game. Wasn't imposing himself and he tracks poorly defensively sometimes. Sometimes with him it's a matter of service. if he doesn't see the ball he can't do much with it.

[TFC07]

Oh man painful game to watch.

[Yohan]

we have the weed man sighting

good sub. hassli wasn't effective at all

[London]

bust out the bong, the weedaman is here

[TFC07]

1-1 now.

[Richard]

Fuck sakes.

[jloome]

Bleh. That was ugly.

[iy12l]

lmao kocic was pissed

[Dkolish3]

We can't bunker for 70 minutes why does no one in management figure this out

[Suds]

lot of breakdowns like that tonight ... we're lucky it's only the one goal so far

[Richard]

This site crash or what lol, much like our defense.

[ag futbol]

How Eric Avila does not get into our first 11 or at least as a substitute is beyond me.

Logan Emory looked like he had a game that was beyond forgetful last night. He seemed to be on the wrong side of the man in every situation. Said it before, I'll say it again: can't expect to start that guy on the regular and win games. I hope O'Dea is going to take his place in the starting 11.

[narduch]

How Eric Avila does not get into our first 11 or at least as a substitute is beyond me.

Agreed.

I also wonder why TFC once again played with a shortened bench? Is Mariner trying to save the club travel money? Do we not have 1 or 2 extra players that can travel with the team?

[London]

so it's ok to use #marinerdidn'tgetshitdone after a loss??

because most of that was dreadfull to watch

[T-boy]

First entire match I missed so far this season!

I'm not surprised at the result, but I'm not going to read much into it. Away points are few and far between in the MLS - the east leader Houston only have 3 wins on the road all season. So, 2 wins and 2 draws away from Mariner is pretty good. If TFC go 1 goal up away from home you can always expect them to bunker down, and for the home team to come out in the second half hungry for possession and a win - that's especially to be expected in the heavily home-advantaged MLS.

TFC appear to be taking the lead in these away games, which might not be working for them. Taking an easrly lead away in the MLS is always going to bring the home team on. Sometimes getting to half time level, then getting a second half goal is better in these games. I think in all but 1 away game under Mariner, TFC have taken an away lead, which is kind of strange and unusual in the MLS!

Meanwhile Houston seem to be on a crazy winning run, which is putting our loss to them last week in perspective a little bit! That's 5 wins in a row for Houston and 8 games unbeaten! That's some mid-season good form!

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

I want to be proved wrong. Here's my best guess going in

Score: Chicago 2 Toronto 1

Chicago Toronto


14
Attempts on Goal
9







46%
Duels Won %
54%







80%
Passing Accuracy %
68%


62%
Possession
38%




Instead of proving you wrong, can I just say you were wrong and ask people not to check my facts?

[narduch]

so it's ok to use #marinerdidn'tgetshitdone after a loss??

because most of that was dreadfull to watch

I'm starting to wonder if Mariner might be sacrificed during the season seat renewal period. TFC has a lot of tough matches coming up against teams that are playing well and are either in the playoff hunt or are in comfortable positions in the standings.

Mariner has been in charge for a couple of months now. I'm sure other teams have now studied our 'system'.

I don't think a price freeze alone is going to be enough during renewal time.

[lobo]

we have the weed man sighting
good sub. hassli wasn't effective at all

weedman was even less effective, in fact detrimental


How Eric Avila does not get into our first 11 or at least as a substitute is beyond me.

beyond you, me, and everyone but mariner


so it's ok to use #marinerdidn'tgetshitdone after a loss??

because most of that was dreadfull to watch

use it ... along with #dreadfultowatch

[TFC07]

so it's ok to use #marinerdidn'tgetshitdone after a loss??

because most of that was dreadfull to watch

Yes!

Anyway, ugly game from a team playing ugly style of soccer. How fitting!

This transfer window has been a major fail and speaks volume and gives me enough reason now to get rid of Mariner and co. Mariner and co. manage to downgrade and kill our depth this transfer window instead of upgrading and adding more depth to this team. Plus you add Mariner awful use of subs, you got a team playing low quality of soccer. After this loss, our chances are pretty much done now. Time to play kids and start looking for a new FO who are on same page so we don`t have a divided FO.

#marinerdidn'tgetshitdone and #firemarinerandco

[ag futbol]

Chicago Fire

Toronto FC


22
Attempts on Goal
8


7
Shots on Target
3


10
Shots off Target
5


5
Blocked Shots
0


3
Corner Kicks
3


6
Fouls
17


22
Open Play Crosses
8


0
Offsides
3


2
First Yellow Cards
0


0
Second Yellow Cards
1


0
Red Cards
1


46
Duels Won
34


57%
Duels Won %
43%


581
Total Pass
293


86%
Passing Accuracy %
73%


66.1%
Possession
33.9%


Stats from last nights game. Thought the fact that they won more of the duels is telling. If I had to guess I'd say it's a result of being too anchored defensively and them quickly pressuring to get the ball back.

[Rene Kingsriver]

Surprised no one has crticized Frings performances lately, been somewhat disappointing imo

[Pookie]

Instead of proving you wrong, can I just say you were wrong and ask people not to check my facts?

:)

Sadly, not too far off in those categories. Most depressing is that I got the score right. That was hard to watch despite Mariner being happy with their play at the half.

[Richard]

I'm starting to wonder if Mariner might be sacrificed during the season seat renewal period. TFC has a lot of tough matches coming up against teams that are playing well and are either in the playoff hunt or are in comfortable positions in the standings.

Mariner has been in charge for a couple of months now. I'm sure other teams have now studied our 'system'.

I don't think a price freeze alone is going to be enough during renewal time.

I expect nothing short of an MLS Cup winning coach at this point, if were going to can him im done waiting for managment to get a proven winner running the club.

[Jeff s]

I blame the game on Mariner. If this guy favors long balls, fine, but for crying out loud does this team have to do it literally every single time?

I agree when he said "possession is only important where you have it" but come on man, how do you expect to get into those "positions" playing like this?
And than there were the subs. Lambe was rightfully taken off for having a horrendous first half. But to replaced by Hall made no sense. Than he does his traditional subbing of Henry for no apparent reason. Henry was winning every set piece, what a stupid mistake. and than Wiedeman, who makes no impact at all. Why not players like Amarikwa and use his pace?

When Emory got the first yellow, i said this guy was going to get sent off. If only Mariner could've known that.

Mariner also has to stop using stupid excuses for his loss. Mariner's excuse was that we "gifted" them both goals. Really Mariner? Really? WE gifted them goals? Did you even bother to look out ours? THATS a gift.
Those kind of gifts won't happen everygame. You might wanna start working on like.. tactics and not luck.

[Benficachop20]

We are seriously just as bad if not worse under Mariner than Winter, only difference is that we're more clinical in our finishing i mean ffs look at the goal we scored yesterday, we can't be relying on shit like that every game (Johnson almost screwed up that chance as well, practically kicked right to the gk). We got rid of the few good players we had and brought in crap. Defending for 90 minutes playing hoofball is flat out a disgrace and embarrassing. U could get 11 amateurs and ask them to do the same thing. I mean 33% of possession... give me a break, and this is happening every game. Our passing accuracy is well behind every other team in the league despite the fact we make half the pass attempts of our opponents....

The subs last night was a joke. First off Lambe deserved to be taken off, he did f all, but u know there's a problem when u bring in a disaster of a player in Hall to replace him (heck we don't need guys like Soolsma or Plata, nope we need more cb's. we only have a 100 of those). Second sub Hassli, he didn't do much but then again when ur just chasing long balls it's hard to get involved, but again look who he brought in. Wiedeman will prove to be like a lot of our signings not good enough for the team, nm that i think he's not good enough for this league. Which leads me to the 3rd sub. Subbing off Henry for Maund. Unless Henry was hurt there was no reason to make this sub. He took out one good cb (yes Mariner he's a cb play him in his natural position ffs) and put on a crap cb in Maund who again i'm certain will leave because he's just flat out not good enough, he was marking the man that scored Chicago's second goal, and he was easily beaten to it.

Another thing to point out, i know people hate our defenders, but i think there not as bad as people make them out to be. Now i'm not saying their amazing because their not, but they have to be the hardest working defenders in the league simply the fact the midfield wins absolutely nothing, its a fucking joke. I'm not seeing the same Frings from last season winning a good amount of tackles, i see him and the oh so beloved Dunfield being run over constantly, u can relieve pressure of our defenders by winning tackles in the midfield but it never fucking happens. Midfield flat out doesn't exist when defending.

Season's done, time to play the kids and see what they can do.

[narduch]

This transfer window has been a major fail

I agree with you on this.

Plus when you add in the fact that the winter transfer period was equally as awful, its no wonder this team is this bad.

[jazzy]

This site crash or what lol, much like our defense.

really like the site was done it seems for 12 hrs??...frequently during games now...if there's problems info is appreciated,..and we'll adjust.....it's like watching the game,...low expectations

[gracos]

one player to blame for the loss, Logan Emory needs to be removed for this new defender O'Day, and see what we can do

[iy12l]

We need to get a new coach after this season is finished, Mariner style of play is a joke. For the past 3 or 4 games we gave our opponents like 60-70% ball possession.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Heath

TFC needs to sign Adrian Heath as our new coach, hes like another Martin Rennie except he plays a 4-5-1 which this team is capable of playing. He also has a record of winning many titles.

[Rene Kingsriver]

The problem is as always the defence, not just in the fact they can't defend but also in that none of them are comfortable on the ball so continually just hoof it. Until defenders are found who are more confident in possession, and we're not talking Beckenbauers or Baresis here, we will struggle. The fact is when we get the ball into advanced positions we actually pass pretty well, the problem is getting it there.

[ag futbol]

The problem is as always the defence, not just in the fact they can't defend but also in that none of them are comfortable on the ball so continually just hoof it. Until defenders are found who are more confident in possession, and we're not talking Beckenbauers or Baresis here, we will struggle. The fact is when we get the ball into advanced positions we actually pass pretty well, the problem is getting it there.
There are a lot of problems. We have a lot of different areas where our team needs to be strengthened. For example: better DM than Dunfield, more consistent winger than Lambe. All brings me back to the transfer window and how we did a terrible job. Quite a few people need to be shown the door in the front office.

[jazzy]

How Eric Avila does not get into our first 11 or at least as a substitute is beyond me.

Logan Emory looked like he had a game that was beyond forgetful last night. He seemed to be on the wrong side of the man in every situation. Said it before, I'll say it again: can't expect to start that guy on the regular and win games. I hope O'Dea is going to take his place in the starting 11.

^ this,.. making sense,...that means this will never happen,..lol..we all tend to forget with our hopeful expectations, we are woefully short of 1rst team players and the FO loves to pretend different.....Emory was horrible on the miscue goal and ecks as usual wasn't patient and jumped the gun by leaving the post and the patient papas simply showed skill finding the hole btwn post and ecks....people love ecks for his 'enthusiasm but ......

[Rene Kingsriver]

There are a lot of problems. We have a lot of different areas where our team needs to be strengthened. For example: better DM than Dunfield, more consistent winger than Lambe. All brings me back to the transfer window and how we did a terrible job. Quite a few people need to be shown the door in the front office.

When I eventually get around to calling my ticket rep that'll be my only grounds for renewing, a clearout of the FO incl Anselmi. Have to disagree about Dunfield though, he's turned it around, since Mariner has been in charge Dunfield has shown he does have a place in this league

[azorean19]

First entire match I missed so far this season!

I'm not surprised at the result, but I'm not going to read much into it. Away points are few and far between in the MLS - the east leader Houston only have 3 wins on the road all season. So, 2 wins and 2 draws away from Mariner is pretty good. If TFC go 1 goal up away from home you can always expect them to bunker down, and for the home team to come out in the second half hungry for possession and a win - that's especially to be expected in the heavily home-advantaged MLS.

TFC appear to be taking the lead in these away games, which might not be working for them. Taking an easrly lead away in the MLS is always going to bring the home team on. Sometimes getting to half time level, then getting a second half goal is better in these games. I think in all but 1 away game under Mariner, TFC have taken an away lead, which is kind of strange and unusual in the MLS!

Meanwhile Houston seem to be on a crazy winning run, which is putting our loss to them last week in perspective a little bit! That's 5 wins in a row for Houston and 8 games unbeaten! That's some mid-season good form!

In perspective my ass, this team is NOT GOOD ENOUGH ! expect another loss in Columbus next week. Getting tired of all these excuses. Why settle for this? Look at Montreal, Look at Vancouver, this is ridiculous. It is beyond embarassing.

[azorean19]

We need to get a new coach after this season is finished, Mariner style of play is a joke. For the past 3 or 4 games we gave our opponents like 60-70% ball possession.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Heath

TFC needs to sign Adrian Heath as our new coach, hes like another Martin Rennie except he plays a 4-5-1 which this team is capable of playing. He also has a record of winning many titles.

The problem is I think they are seriously considering bringing back Mariner...WOW....talk about blind !

[ag futbol]

When I eventually get around to calling my ticket rep that'll be my only grounds for renewing, a clearout of the FO incl Anselmi. Have to disagree about Dunfield though, he's turned it around, since Mariner has been in charge Dunfield has shown he does have a place in this league
Oh I think he can play in the league, but as a starter? Very difficult to justify.

[azorean19]

Oh I think he can play in the league, but as a starter? Very difficult to justify.
agreed, NOT GOOD ENOUGH....

[TFC07]

The problem is I think they are seriously considering bringing back Mariner...WOW....talk about blind !

Mariner future will be decided by season ticket holders not ML$E now. If season ticket sales are down, then Mariner is gone.

[azorean19]

Mariner future will be decided by season ticket holders not ML$E now. If season ticket sales are down, then Mariner is gone.

well, than, consider Mariner GONE...FINGERS CROSSED !

[TFC_905]

well, than, consider Mariner GONE...FINGERS CROSSED !

Hope so. Get Mariner Out!

[dow117]

Face it, the team is simply not good enough... Houston and Chicago just showed us how wide the gap really is. We are no where near the MLS standard and apart from 3-4 players; there needs to be a wholesale change . Too many utility, squad players... not enough real quality out there: yeh, we love 'em but we gotta leave 'em!!!(out). Quality = consistency , and we have neither !

[jazzy]

Sherjill Macdonald is going to be strong for Chicago.....he has strong skills and is dutch...threating all night

[azorean19]

Sherjill Macdonald is going to be strong for Chicago.....he has strong skills and is dutch...threating all night


this is precisely the problem I have with TFC ...Why not find some players ! LOOK ! during the transfer window they found 1 discarded injured DP from Vancouver and a backup keeper? WTF? Is that good enough? NO, it is not ! I see all these other teams finding/signing players and TFC continues to flounder....Just look at the Honduran Olympic team that has impressed, New England was smart enough to sign Bengston before the Olympics started, Martinez is on loan to Seattle, again just before Olympics started, not to mention Espinoza who was a Beast all tournament long belonging to K.C, WTF is wrong with TFC? Instead we are looking at trading for discarded DPS from other clubs and backup keepers....ARGGH! We deserve More !

[Pookie]

Sherjill Macdonald is going to be strong for Chicago.....he has strong skills and is dutch...threating all night

A striker signing that didn't cost a first round Superdraft pick either. Great pick up for the Fire

[Pookie]

The problem is as always the defence, not just in the fact they can't defend but also in that none of them are comfortable on the ball so continually just hoof it. Until defenders are found who are more confident in possession, and we're not talking Beckenbauers or Baresis here, we will struggle. The fact is when we get the ball into advanced positions we actually pass pretty well, the problem is getting it there.

Agreed completely. I am very satisfied with our Forward group from Johnson, Avila (when he plays), Silva, Koevermans/Hassli. I'd put it up with any in the league.

We get beat on the back end and through spots in the mid-field. Which makes the decision to play a counter attack/forward first model very challenging to pull off against the better teams. If your back line is your strength, maybe you can withstand 20+ shots a game and can afford to give the ball away. That isn't our team though.

[azorean19]

Agreed completely. I am very satisfied with our Forward group from Johnson, Avila (when he plays), Silva, Koevermans/Hassli. I'd put it up with any in the league.

We get beat on the back end and through spots in the mid-field. Which makes the decision to play a counter attack/forward first model very challenging to pull off against the better teams. If your back line is your strength, maybe you can withstand 20+ shots a game and can afford to give the ball away. That isn't our team though.


In a salary capped league Silva is the only one I would keep personally, But regarding the back end? TFC did nothing during the window but pick up O'Dea......I'll reserve judgement on the guy 'til i actually see him play BUT why not look elsewhere? seriously, if San jose is able to pick up a defensive stud like Bernardez for $100,000, what is preventing TFC from doing likewise?...LOOK !

[Pookie]

In a salary capped league Silva is the only one I would keep personally, But regarding the back end? TFC did nothing during the window but pick up O'Dea......I'll reserve judgement on the guy 'til i actually see him play BUT why not look elsewhere? seriously, if San jose is able to pick up a defensive stud like Bernardez for $100,000, what is preventing TFC from doing likewise...LOOK !

The decision to pick up Hassli instead of Mellberg could be the one that bites them. I really like Hassli but he could have been had in the offseason.

[azorean19]

The decision to pick up Hassli instead of Mellberg could be the one that bites them. I really like Hassli but he could have been had in the offseason.

yeah, i like Hassli as well BUT it is the TFC scouting department, or lack thereof, I have a problem with...Hassli was/is a known quality, I see other teams finding, or at least trying to find, some undiscovered talent....TFC is just hopeless in this regard.

[jabbronies]

Same old problems that plagued Winter's team is plaguing Mariner's. Late goal, shoddy defense, lack of scoring touch.

[jabbronies]

The decision to pick up Hassli instead of Mellberg could be the one that bites them. I really like Hassli but he could have been had in the offseason.

I agree - Defense has been what has always killed us. But people still don't seem to see that.
Because our defense wasn't keeping us in games, Danny K was the reason we were winning. When he was scoring, this team was winning. Team had to find someone to replace him because the whole team success was based on that one position. Instead of fixing the real problem, we tried to continue with the same band-aide fix that emerged for us this year - Top scoring poacher to offset our defensive lapses.

[Couchy81]

Same old problems that plagued Winter's team is plaguing Mariner's. Late goal, shoddy defense, lack of scoring touch.

A lot of people kept defending the players when Winter was coaching, but I was saying it back then the team isn't good enough in terms of quality. Hell even Winter complained about the quality of his players. Not even Mariner's system is simple enough for a lot of these guys. We need wholesale changes in management, Anselmi/Cochrane/Mariner out, and replace them with professional soccer managers who have the ability to put together a team that has enough quality to compete in the MLS.

[jazzy]

this is precisely the problem I have with TFC ...Why not find some players ! LOOK ! during the transfer window they found 1 discarded injured DP from Vancouver and a backup keeper? WTF? Is that good enough? NO, it is not ! I see all these other teams finding/signing players and TFC continues to flounder....Just look at the Honduran Olympic team that has impressed, New England was smart enough to sign Bengston before the Olympics started, Martinez is on loan to Seattle, again just before Olympics started, not to mention Espinoza who was a Beast all tournament long belonging to K.C, WTF is wrong with TFC? Instead we are looking at trading for discarded DPS from other clubs and backup keepers....ARGGH! We deserve More !

what's realistic and sad about this post is that we could post this every year since inception simply with new individual players....god even before the last Olympics.........and sadly the great fans of local soccer, always hopeful for the great game here, will be as always denied and taken for granted ...that is the injustice,....... Honduras has quality, if Guevara was still honoured like we do do Brennan and Dichio maybe we'd be a destination of choice.....again the north american FO (for lack of a better term) have zero future vision

[ag futbol]

Surprised no one has crticized Frings performances lately, been somewhat disappointing imo
I don't disagree with you here. There's been a few performances he's turned in lately that I've plugged my nose over.

But really, in a ship full of holes, the big problems get the attention first. Outside of Kocic TFC really has no consistent performers. We have players that have been hot/cold this season and some other players that are simply not talented enough. Can't really say there's been anybody who hasn't struggled a bit. Maybe Morgan, who has been fairly good since a bit of a slow start.. but still.

[azorean19]

A lot of people kept defending the players when Winter was coaching, but I was saying it back then the team isn't good enough in terms of quality. Hell even Winter complained about the quality of his players. Not even Mariner's system is simple enough for a lot of these guys. We need wholesale changes in management, Anselmi/Cochrane/Mariner out, and replace them with professional soccer managers who have the ability to put together a team that has enough quality to compete in the MLS.

I agree based solely on the fact that other teams can SCOUT ! we cannot scout ! it is one thing to pick up a known quantity DP, or player , etc ......BUT to have true success you have to find some inexpensive 'diamonds in the rough' imo. I am seriously jealous when i see other clubs find players such as Felipe(Montreal), Bernardez(San Jose), Bosnieck(Houston), Castrillon(Colorado) all the while we look to sign middling European castoffs.

[Whoop]

A lot of people kept defending the players when Winter was coaching, but I was saying it back then the team isn't good enough in terms of quality. Hell even Winter complained about the quality of his players. Not even Mariner's system is simple enough for a lot of these guys. We need wholesale changes in management, Anselmi/Cochrane/Mariner out, and replace them with professional soccer managers who have the ability to put together a team that has enough quality to compete in the MLS.

And who was the person responsible for bringing in players? ...

Mariner is being exposed for why he never had a head coaching job in the first place...

[Oldtimer]

And who was the person responsible for bringing in players? ...

Mariner is being exposed for why he never had a head coaching job in the first place...

Exactly. I'm not sure why more people can't see this.


... and people in Toronto say that MLS players are too unskilled to play a more technical game. Then we see many of the top teams in MLS play a more technical game. So it's just Toronto players who can't play a more technical game. The difference? Player acquisition. Who was responsible for that? Mariner.

[jazzy]

Exactly. I'm not sure why more people can't see this.



... and people in Toronto say that MLS players are too unskilled to play a more technical game. Then we see many of the top teams in MLS play a more technical game. So it's just Toronto players who can't play a more technical game. The difference? Player acquisition. Who was responsible for that? Mariner.

and all the more confusing when I see and here opposing successful teams expanding on the virtues of playing the 4-3-3...?? uh I thought that was a lost cause........apparently not to houston and the likes.....just here apparently.........and now we don't have the talent to play a dumbed down 4-4-2??.....why don't we just kick the ball up the field and form a wall....then we don't need any talent or coaches for that matter. and does anyone wonder if jim brennan had a hand in the ok of signing O'Dea....??

[Ajax TFC]

A lot of people kept defending the players when Winter was coaching, but I was saying it back then the team isn't good enough in terms of quality. Hell even Winter complained about the quality of his players. Not even Mariner's system is simple enough for a lot of these guys. We need wholesale changes in management, Anselmi/Cochrane/Mariner out, and replace them with professional soccer managers who have the ability to put together a team that has enough quality to compete in the MLS.
This is it. The problem real problem wasn't that the system was too complex for the players, the problem was that the players weren't good enough for the system. you can't simply dumb down the game to the point where the players can suddenly out class the other team.


I don't disagree with you here. There's been a few performances he's turned in lately that I've plugged my nose over.

But really, in a ship full of holes, the big problems get the attention first. Outside of Kocic TFC really has no consistent performers. We have players that have been hot/cold this season and some other players that are simply not talented enough. Can't really say there's been anybody who hasn't struggled a bit. Maybe Morgan, who has been fairly good since a bit of a slow start.. but still.
I won't point fingers at Frings for his performances under Mariner in a neglected midfield any more than I blame Avlia for being worse under Mariner being played out of position on the wing

[Greatest Ripoff]

This transfer window has been a major fail and speaks volume and gives me enough reason now to get rid of Mariner and co. Mariner and co. manage to downgrade and kill our depth this transfer window instead of upgrading and adding more depth to this team.

#marinerdidn'tgetshitdone and #firemarinerandco

This! Mariner released a bunch of players and replaced with them with players of equal of lesser value to the team. Just so he could have players that would be 'his players'. This totally disprupts the teams chemistry for no reason other than to fill his ego.

What ever happened to the 'tweak'?

[sashavukelich]

so far mariner has the best record of any coach and yet here you all are having a go at him. 'supporters' is an interesting label sometimes. I honestly don't think some people on this board will EVER be satisfied until we are Barcelona.

[Pookie]

While the schedule is tough, I do think Mariner can post results in the next 2 games.

We face Columbus and Portland. Columbus wins a few and loses a few. Given the recent passing of their teammate, who knows what kind of mental state they will have going in. The game itself seems insignificant in light of the circumstances which will be difficult for every Crew player.

Portland is struggling as well.

Both are winnable games.

Is it enough? Is it something to build on for next season? No.

[v00d00daddy]

so far mariner has the best record of any coach and yet here you all are having a go at him. 'supporters' is an interesting label sometimes. I honestly don't think some people on this board will EVER be satisfied until we are Barcelona.

If your measuring stick is "Is his record better than 1 win and 9 losses?" then I think you'll always think he's great.

The truth is that Mariner bold face lied to us. Look at Greatest Ripoff's post.

What happened to the tweak?

Was that ever even his plan?

If TFC's results improve to a bottom third team with little hope of competing for the playoffs will you be happy with the changes that Mariner has made?

Because that's where I see this team going.

ANYBODY who thinks that giving your opponent 2/3 of the ball every game, and thinking that you can be successful that way, is lost. There is no other way to put it.

Show me a team in any league in the world that finds success by keeping under 40% of possession game in and game out.

Yes...bunkering, conceding possession or playing hoof ball can work in a one off game when you think you're outclassed and are trying for anything to get a result (ie: Chelsea v. Barcelona) but it's not a strategy that is going to work game in and game out.

It's easy to figure out.
It tires the players you actually use
It neglects important players on the field (ie Frings)
It's ugly to watch (just my opinion)

So what is there to be happy about when it comes to Mariner?

I don't care about how much he loves his players and hugs them. Or how "passionate" he is on the touch line.

Besides....watch his post game presser from the Chicago game. Why has nobody given him shit for throwing players under the bus like Winter got shit for?

[ManUtd4ever]

Mariner's record is 4-4-4 in MLS, and 1-0-0 in CCL thus far.

Does he have his flaws? Yes.

Is he the coach of the future? No.

Was he hired to improve the results of the first team in the immediate future? Yes.

Does he deserve to be fired at this point as some people have suggested? Hell no.

I've maintained all along that he deserves the rest of the season in order to be judged accordingly; an ample body of work in which to gauge his results. Mariner should not be hailed as a saviour after a win, and he should not be deemed incompetent after a loss either. The truth lies somewhere in between, and we will know for certain by the end of the season.

[Super]

My number one problem with Mariner right now is that we seem to have no possession - even at home. That's not very sustainable. Even if it does give us results, it's certainly sure to drive any new potential fans away from the game. It's awfully boring to watch. Kinda embarrassing, too. I hope that with the addition of new and better defensive players we'll push up a bit higher and control the ball longer. Possession in the 30's is just not acceptable.

[v00d00daddy]

Mariner's record is 4-4-4 in MLS, and 1-0-0 in CCL thus far.

Nothing to argue here. He has gotten better results than we were getting before he was at the helm. Absolutely


Does he have his flaws? Yes.

Yup. And there's nothing wrong with pointing out those flaws.


Is he the coach of the future? No.

Then what was the point of PROMOTING him to head coach? (Apart from the misplaced (imo) desire for immediate results.


Was he hired to improve the results of the first team in the immediate future? Yes.

No he wasn't. He was promoted to get immediate results after being a part of the team that got no results at the beginning of the season. Add to that the fact that he said he'd implement minor tweaks and instead changed things completely and surely you can see why some people don't want him around.


Does he deserve to be fired at this point as some people have suggested? Hell no.

The only reason he shouldn't be fired is because there's no point. It would serve no purpose. Just like his promotion served no purpose. We're still going to finish at or near the bottom of the league, outside of the playoffs. Only thing he will have accomplished is completely overhauling the way the team plays and the players they value in favour of a style of play that many don't want to watch and most would concede will not bring any long term success.


I've maintained all along that he deserves the rest of the season in order to be judged accordingly; an ample body of work in which to gauge his results. Mariner should not be hailed as a saviour after a win, and he should not be deemed incompetent after a loss either. The truth lies somewhere in between, and we will know for certain by the end of the season.

Sure...give him the rest of the season. But, if at the end of the season they have more town hall sessions it will be interesting to see what is said about the long term plans of this club. If Mariner and his current player selection and tactics are kept as the philosophy going forward I (and many others) will not renew.

If they hold the town halls after the renewal period I will not renew based simply on how they handled this season.

So....what's the point of supporting him?

Unless he comes out and says "we will be going back to a possession, skill based game for the start of next season and for seasons to come" .

And even then, my next reaction would be "perfect. now off you go Mariner cause you're not the man to take this team there"

I just don't see any reason for Mariner other than to convince people that he's the right guy in order to cement SSH renewals. And I have a feeling that they knew this would be easier by a man from his part of the world and his pedigree.

[narduch]

Mariner's record is 4-4-4 in MLS, and 1-0-0 in CCL thus far.

Does he have his flaws? Yes.

Is he the coach of the future? No.

Was he hired to improve the results of the first team in the immediate future? Yes.

Does he deserve to be fired at this point as some people have suggested? Hell no.

I've maintained all along that he deserves the rest of the season in order to be judged accordingly; an ample body of work in which to gauge his results. Mariner should not be hailed as a saviour after a win, and he should not be deemed incompetent after a loss either. The truth lies somewhere in between, and we will know for certain by the end of the season.

We can definitely judge Mariner on his transfer activity. And based on that, I don't have much hope for the future of this club if we continue on with Mariner.

I was willing to give Mariner a chance, but I don't think he is the right guy for the job.

We need to get the right person in right away, so that we can start getting ready for next year NOW. I don't want to see us finding replacements in January, again.

[Ajax TFC]

The only reason he shouldn't be fired is because there's no point. It would serve no purpose. Just like his promotion served no purpose. We're still going to finish at or near the bottom of the league, outside of the playoffs. Only thing he will have accomplished is completely overhauling the way the team plays and the players they value in favour of a style of play that many don't want to watch and most would concede will not bring any long term success.

no point? how about some damage control? Since his arrival we`ve lost Soolsma, several picks, Burgos (who made nothing) and could lose Avila and probably Plata if Mariner`s still around when his loan expires

[jloome]

no point? how about some damage control? Since his arrival we`ve lost Soolsma, several picks, Burgos (who made nothing) and could lose Avila and probably Plata if Mariner`s still around when his loan expires

It's a natural human tendency to take an either/or stance on a situation, and that's why these debates become vociferous so quickly. Neuroscience suggests its a defense mechanism, to help us define exterior threats.

Anyhow, as I've said several times, I don't think anyone can fairly call for his head yet.

But I do see several disturbing trends that are confirming my existing suspicion, which is that he's a coach who's all about winning through heart and effort. And unfortunately, that's just a pre-requisite now in MLS.

When he was in New England, Nichols was the tactician; he atually changed formations with fair regularity, based on who they were playing, and within those formations played pretty simple possession triangles, and relying on guys like Steve Rolston and Shalrie Joseph -- who were superior passers -- to also pick out guys going off teh back shoulder.

But mostly, it was about driving possession up the sidelines, either directly, or with short movement, depending on who they were playing.

Mariner was beloved by the players there, but as a motivator. He wasn't the guy pulling the technical strings.

So far, I think he's better for us than Winter, because drive and athleticism are still more important in MLS than technique. But ultimately, to have a consistent winning team we need a coach who both motivates and is tactically adept.

The local situation is also reflected in the players he's gotten rid of or marginalized, players who are high-technique, low on the "rah rah" talk factor (except maybe Plata, who was TOO independent.)

I've stopped believing that soccer professionals have enough humility to see their own flaws, so I doubt he'll adapt. As such, we'll be very much a .500 club again, as with Preki, Cummins, Carver etc. We'll win some on heart and fight, but lose as many or more because the skill and read of the game aren't there on the players he's gotten together.

If we had the choice to keep or get rid of any starter on our team right now -- and I know this sounds brutal, but I'm being purely objective based on the MLS marketplace -- the only regular starters on this team who are there now would be Ashtone Morgan, Danny Koevermans, Reggie Lambe (a rare Mariner technique pickup), Milos Kocic.

The 'maybe' would be Richard Eckerley, who is borderline due to inconsistent self-control but otherwise a good right back.

Henry? Too young and inexperienced, positioning needs work, ball delivery needs work. I actually think giving him a season at right back is smart. Those are the defensive skills he lacks most (moving with his mark and getting the ball upfield accurately.).

Emory? Again, too inexperienced. He's a backup at this level for a couple of years, at least. He has real prospects, like a younger Michael Parkhurst.

Dunfield? Great heart lately, but his positioning is truly awful when he plays flat in the mid or wide. When he plays as an anchor man, he's okay. But even then he's not very quick and he blows more tackles than he makes.

Frings? I'll probably get kicked for this, but he should retire. The consistency just isn't there any more. The moments of brilliance are occasional enough to make him valuable to us, but that's all relative. His speed is awful and his passing in some games has been the least accurate on the team.

Johnson? If we were playing a three-man front, he'd be a good inside forward or winger. But he's not a central striker, as his finishing rate around the 6 yd. box demonstrates.

So what does this tell us? Is Mariner telling them we need wholesale change? I don't think so. If he does, he has to justify recommending these guys or approving when he was head of player dev.

It's a mess, I think. But here's hoping I'm wrong. Certainly, I must say the odd win is nice, even when it's ugly. I'll admit I'm surprised by how important I find that versus attractive football. But I'm not yet confident he's the guy.

[brad]

^^good post jloome. On your point about players not seeing their own flaws - Keller made a comment a year or two ago saying that most of the MLS guys he played thought they were food enough to play in the EPL, but we're unlucky and hadn't got a break. That's a pretty strong backing of your notion

[azorean19]

It's a natural human tendency to take an either/or stance on a situation, and that's why these debates become vociferous so quickly. Neuroscience suggests its a defense mechanism, to help us define exterior threats.

Anyhow, as I've said several times, I don't think anyone can fairly call for his head yet.

But I do see several disturbing trends that are confirming my existing suspicion, which is that he's a coach who's all about winning through heart and effort. And unfortunately, that's just a pre-requisite now in MLS.

When he was in New England, Nichols was the tactician; he atually changed formations with fair regularity, based on who they were playing, and within those formations played pretty simple possession triangles, and relying on guys like Steve Rolston and Shalrie Joseph -- who were superior passers -- to also pick out guys going off teh back shoulder.

But mostly, it was about driving possession up the sidelines, either directly, or with short movement, depending on who they were playing.

Mariner was beloved by the players there, but as a motivator. He wasn't the guy pulling the technical strings.

So far, I think he's better for us than Winter, because drive and athleticism are still more important in MLS than technique. But ultimately, to have a consistent winning team we need a coach who both motivates and is tactically adept.

The local situation is also reflected in the players he's gotten rid of or marginalized, players who are high-technique, low on the "rah rah" talk factor (except maybe Plata, who was TOO independent.)

I've stopped believing that soccer professionals have enough humility to see their own flaws, so I doubt he'll adapt. As such, we'll be very much a .500 club again, as with Preki, Cummins, Carver etc. We'll win some on heart and fight, but lose as many or more because the skill and read of the game aren't there on the players he's gotten together.

If we had the choice to keep or get rid of any starter on our team right now -- and I know this sounds brutal, but I'm being purely objective based on the MLS marketplace -- the only regular starters on this team who are there now would be Ashtone Morgan, Danny Koevermans, Reggie Lambe (a rare Mariner technique pickup), Milos Kocic.

The 'maybe' would be Richard Eckerley, who is borderline due to inconsistent self-control but otherwise a good right back.

Henry? Too young and inexperienced, positioning needs work, ball delivery needs work. I actually think giving him a season at right back is smart. Those are the defensive skills he lacks most (moving with his mark and getting the ball upfield accurately.).

Emory? Again, too inexperienced. He's a backup at this level for a couple of years, at least. He has real prospects, like a younger Michael Parkhurst.

Dunfield? Great heart lately, but his positioning is truly awful when he plays flat in the mid or wide. When he plays as an anchor man, he's okay. But even then he's not very quick and he blows more tackles than he makes.

Frings? I'll probably get kicked for this, but he should retire. The consistency just isn't there any more. The moments of brilliance are occasional enough to make him valuable to us, but that's all relative. His speed is awful and his passing in some games has been the least accurate on the team.

Johnson? If we were playing a three-man front, he'd be a good inside forward or winger. But he's not a central striker, as his finishing rate around the 6 yd. box demonstrates.

So what does this tell us? Is Mariner telling them we need wholesale change? I don't think so. If he does, he has to justify recommending these guys or approving when he was head of player dev.

It's a mess, I think. But here's hoping I'm wrong. Certainly, I must say the odd win is nice, even when it's ugly. I'll admit I'm surprised by how important I find that versus attractive football. But I'm not yet confident he's the guy.

Where's Silva? I would take Silva over lambe in a heartbeat, even though he has scored a few goals and has some pace I don't rate lambe at all. As for Emory having 'real prospects' ? Yeah, if you are talking about the CSl maybe....the guy is not good enough and will never be good enough for MLS.

This might sound crazy, but I think Silva is the best player we have right now with the biggest upside...DP's included.

[jloome]

Yeah, that's true. Ok, so we only need 50% of a starting roster, lol

[ag futbol]

Yeah, that's true. Ok, so we only need 50% of a starting roster, lol
Yeah, I think a number of us are of a similar opinion. The talent gap between TFC and most teams is absolutely shocking.

[Pookie]

Is he the coach of the future? No.

Was he hired to improve the results of the first team in the immediate future? Yes.

Does he deserve to be fired at this point as some people have suggested? Hell no.

I've maintained all along that he deserves the rest of the season in order to be judged accordingly; an ample body of work in which to gauge his results. Mariner should not be hailed as a saviour after a win, and he should not be deemed incompetent after a loss either. The truth lies somewhere in between, and we will know for certain by the end of the season.


Here's the thing though. He's not just the coach. He's overseeing player acquisitions.

Hassli instead of Mellberg

Plata on loan (or escaping depending on your perspective)

Trading 2 Superdraft picks (1st and 3rd rounds)

Releasing Soolsma

No thanks on Nesta

etc, etc

If he isn't the coach of the future, why give him the keys to the franchise? Not saying any one of those decisions was necessarily the wrong one but why let someone who isn't going to be around long term make decisions which potentially have a very long term impact on the club?

[Canary10]

TFC is a worse team today than when the transfer window opened.

[ManUtd4ever]

If he isn't the coach of the future, why give him the keys to the franchise? Not saying any one of those decisions was necessarily the wrong one but why let someone who isn't going to be around long term make decisions which potentially have a very long term impact on the club?

With very few exceptions, coaches have a relatively short shelf life with their respective teams. If a new coach has 2 poor seasons in professional sports, he is usually toast at that point.

In football, traditionally speaking, coaches/managers also oversee player acquisitions. Therefore, your question can literally be applied to any new manager at the beginning of his tenure with a club. If that individual is not guaranteed to be the coach/manager of the future for that particular club, why entrust him with making decisions that may have a long term impact?

Opinions vary regarding the grace period Mariner should be allowed, but the fact remains that he wasn't named an interim coach. Mariner's status is not analagous to Cochrane when he was named interim GM and a hiring process was taking place, so player moves should be expected at this point in time.

Mariner will be given the chance to succeed or fail of his own volition, and that's how it should be.

[ag futbol]

Opinions vary regarding the grace period Mariner should be allowed, but the fact remains that he wasn't named an interim coach. Mariner's status is not analagous to Cochrane when he was named interim GM and a hiring process was taking place, so player moves should be expected at this point in time.

Oh it was pretty much as purposely vague as possible, I don't think you could definitively say what you've stated. Boil it down to incompetent coverage of this team and a Sr. management team that wants a free go at naming a coach without taking responsibility for it.

[jloome]

Here's the thing though. He's not just the coach. He's overseeing player acquisitions.

Hassli instead of Mellberg

Plata on loan (or escaping depending on your perspective)

Trading 2 Superdraft picks (1st and 3rd rounds)

Releasing Soolsma

No thanks on Nesta

etc, etc

If he isn't the coach of the future, why give him the keys to the franchise? Not saying any one of those decisions was necessarily the wrong one but why let someone who isn't going to be around long term make decisions which potentially have a very long term impact on the club?

If it wasn't deliberate I apologize in advance, but you don't need to stretch what's known to be true to make your point. It seems quite evident the league quashed Mellberg, not Mariner, and he got a decent (potentially quite good) second defender to make up for it.

Also, we don't know whether Soolsma asked for his release, as it was termed 'mutual' publicly. Both Andy Welsh and Rohan Ricketts walked away on mutual release. Mutual release is not synonymous with "polite firing." Players often are the ones who reach the conclusion they'd be better somewhere else after a new manager comes in, particularly if the club's willing to pay out their deal.

Also, we have no idea whether they seriously considered Nesta or not, as Cochrane has only vaguely alluded to not taking a hard look. That could just as easily be because Nesta had told them it was a courtesy visit and his heart is playing with his buddies in Montreal.

You're jumping to conclusions on things we know nothing about; your points about his general roster building and tactical management are valid, but you don't need to overstate and conflate information to support it. It's not necessary and it makes the argument seemed skewed to the (often many) people in the middle who can see a bit of both sides.

[PureTFC]

Also, we don't know whether Soolsma asked for his release, as it was termed 'mutual' publicly.



It's not the best translation but Nick is a good guy and not naive.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dnick%2Bsoolsma%2Bexcelsior%26start%3D 20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1295%26bih%3D890%26p rmd%3Dimvnso&rurl=translate.google.ca&sl=nl&u=http://www.soccernews.nl/news/162198/Exclusief:_Soolsma_op_proef_bij_Excelsior:_Ook_and ere_clubs_die_interesse_tonen&usg=ALkJrhjKeg2rBYRg3r6j03jFfDU8SjV5MA

Sure it's a little between the lines but he knew he wasn't in the plans for next year at all and made the right choice for himself. They forced his hand for the sake of his footballing future. He's impressing a couple of teams with his play too. Our loss that is for sure.

[Pookie]

If it wasn't deliberate I apologize in advance, but you don't need to stretch what's known to be true to make your point. It seems quite evident the league quashed Mellberg, not Mariner, and he got a decent (potentially quite good) second defender to make up for it.

Also, we don't know whether Soolsma asked for his release, as it was termed 'mutual' publicly. Both Andy Welsh and Rohan Ricketts walked away on mutual release. Mutual release is not synonymous with "polite firing." Players often are the ones who reach the conclusion they'd be better somewhere else after a new manager comes in, particularly if the club's willing to pay out their deal.

Also, we have no idea whether they seriously considered Nesta or not, as Cochrane has only vaguely alluded to not taking a hard look. That could just as easily be because Nesta had told them it was a courtesy visit and his heart is playing with his buddies in Montreal.

You're jumping to conclusions on things we know nothing about; your points about his general roster building and tactical management are valid, but you don't need to overstate and conflate information to support it. It's not necessary and it makes the argument seemed skewed to the (often many) people in the middle who can see a bit of both sides.

... I don't want to rehash the whole Mellberg discussion that is ongoing on in the transfer thread. The reality is that TFC decided that it couldn't fit Mellberg in a way that made financial sense. In finding a way to fit Hassli in, it is clear that it came down a choice. One or the other but not both.

Again, while I have my view that it was a mistake to go that route (and give up the pick for a player that would have been available in 12 more games for free), that isn't the point I am making. I referenced Mellberg and the other moves as significant decisions that will impact the future of the club. Since the feeling that was expressed was that Mariner wasn't the long term coach, I am simply questioning the wisdom in allowing him to make significant player decisions if he isn't going to be here over the long term.

It speaks more to the decision not to entertain a proper search for a coach/manager. It also speaks to the decision to abandon a vision as an organization rather than find a replacement to Winter to build on our time investment over the 18 months under him.

A related question is why does Tom Anselmi accept an about face change of vision (and subsequent roster decisions) from the man he hired to support the club's previous direction under the Total Football blueprint? As best I can tell, Mariner cashed his cheques over the last 20 months. I've got to assume that he was supporting Winter in good faith.

[T-boy]

Let's put things in perspective a little bit. Some of you that are calling for Mariner's head need to look at the overall picture, not just this ONE result.

TFC had the worst possible start to this season, so much that it created a league record worst start to a season. Whoever was put in charge after Winter was rightly fired, had an uphill battle. This ONE road result isn't a bad one. If TFC haden't lost their first 9 games, losing an away game would be minor at this point. But seeing as Mariner has been left with a major battle to even get mid table, it means away games are now extremely important. But this isn't HIS fault, its Winter's fault for getting us in this position in the first place!

At BEST an average MLS team might win 25 percent of their away games in a season, and STILL be ample in the play offs. Away games are extremely difficult to win in the MLS due to the massive home advantage in the games. Mariner actually has a GOOD away record since he's been in charge, better than the average! If he carried on that form to a whole season, TFC would be one of the best away team in the league! So, losing this one game in Chicago isn't the end of the world!

I would LOVE to win every away game, but its just not realistic in the MLS, for ANY team!

Mariner needs to be judged on his performance since he's been manager. NOT judged by his performance on a team that's started the worst ever in the league. If TFC had started under Mariner and taken his teams form into the whole season, they would eb easily mid table and knocking on the play-offs. So, we really need to judge him on that, not that we are bottom of the table due to the incompetance of the previous head coach!

Reading these post match threads these days is like reading a board written by bi-polar goldfish (no long term memory emotional swings!). One win and TFC are great, Mariner is the savious! The next loss, TFC are worse than before and Mariner is a horrible coach! Reading is quite comical really! We need to judge Mariner overall by his results, not one result at a time.

[v00d00daddy]

A related question is why does Tom Anselmi accept an about face change of vision (and subsequent roster decisions) from the man he hired to support the club's previous direction under the Total Football blueprint? As best I can tell, Mariner cashed his cheques over the last 20 months. I've got to assume that he was supporting Winter in good faith.

I wonder the same.

Either

A) mariner was working in good faith with Winter and did his job poorly, contributing to the 0-9 start and, as such, should have been canned too

Or

B) he was a snake and made life difficult for Winter to serve his own purposes

Or

C) winter was a dick and made life difficult for Mariner to do his job


At the end of the day...only and idiot would come to the conclusion that after one of those scenarios, Mariner was the right guy to coach this team.

And that idiot is Tom Anselmi.

[Canary10]

Let's put things in perspective a little bit. Some of you that are calling for Mariner's head need to look at the overall picture, not just this ONE result.

TFC had the worst possible start to this season, so much that it created a league record worst start to a season. Whoever was put in charge after Winter was rightly fired, had an uphill battle. This ONE road result isn't a bad one. If TFC haden't lost their first 9 games, losing an away game would be minor at this point. But seeing as Mariner has been left with a major battle to even get mid table, it means away games are now extremely important. But this isn't HIS fault, its Winter's fault for getting us in this position in the first place!

At BEST an average MLS team might win 25 percent of their away games in a season, and STILL be ample in the play offs. Away games are extremely difficult to win in the MLS due to the massive home advantage in the games. Mariner actually has a GOOD away record since he's been in charge, better than the average! If he carried on that form to a whole season, TFC would be one of the best away team in the league! So, losing this one game in Chicago isn't the end of the world!

I would LOVE to win every away game, but its just not realistic in the MLS, for ANY team!

Mariner needs to be judged on his performance since he's been manager. NOT judged by his performance on a team that's started the worst ever in the league. If TFC had started under Mariner and taken his teams form into the whole season, they would eb easily mid table and knocking on the play-offs. So, we really need to judge him on that, not that we are bottom of the table due to the incompetance of the previous head coach!

Reading these post match threads these days is like reading a board written by bi-polar goldfish (no long term memory emotional swings!). One win and TFC are great, Mariner is the savious! The next loss, TFC are worse than before and Mariner is a horrible coach! Reading is quite comical really! We need to judge Mariner overall by his results, not one result at a time.

Some of us have been pretty consistent about saying Mariner is shit.

[ManUtd4ever]

I wonder the same.

Either

A) mariner was working in good faith with Winter and did his job poorly, contributing to the 0-9 start and, as such, should have been canned too

Or

B) he was a snake and made life difficult for Winter to serve his own purposes

Or

C) winter was a dick and made life difficult for Mariner to do his job


At the end of the day...only and idiot would come to the conclusion that after one of those scenarios, Mariner was the right guy to coach this team.

And that idiot is Tom Anselmi.

Or

D) Winter had to be dismissed after his horrendous start to the campaign. Anselmi (even though he has no business running a football club) had his hands tied in terms of hiring a replacement from outside of the organization because of the pending sale of MLSE, and he was left with no alternative other than to promote from within the organization. Subsequently, Mariner was given the reigns to see if he could turn the ship around.

[TFC Tifoso]

Or

D) Winter had to be dismissed after his horrendous start to the campaign. Anselmi (even though he has no business running a football club) had his hands tied in terms of hiring a replacement from outside of the organization because of the pending sale of MLSE, and he was left with no alternative other than to promote from within the organization. Subsequently, Mariner was given the reigns to see if he could turn the ship around.

but the point that is often being forgotten is that it was not within Winter's job description to find and sign players at the time they (Winter, De Klerk, Mariner) were hired.....at least not as his job was described to the public.....that responsibility was Mariner's, Cochrane's, or both......more heads should've rolled when Winter's did, but instead those heads were actually given positions of more responsibility......

[Richard]

I wonder the same.

Either

A) mariner was working in good faith with Winter and did his job poorly, contributing to the 0-9 start and, as such, should have been canned too

Or

B) he was a snake and made life difficult for Winter to serve his own purposes

Or

C) winter was a dick and made life difficult for Mariner to do his job


At the end of the day...only and idiot would come to the conclusion that after one of those scenarios, Mariner was the right guy to coach this team.

And that idiot is Tom Anselmi.

You a correct sir, Anselmi chose to abandon the vision and that is all on him. He keeps saying he aint the president but his moves say otherwise. I think its about time the guys above him stop twidling there thumbs and can his ass. Also to the folks saying he had no choice but go to Mariner, you are correct, but was chaging the whole system really ideal?

[Pookie]

Or

D) Winter had to be dismissed after his horrendous start to the campaign. Anselmi (even though he has no business running a football club) had his hands tied in terms of hiring a replacement from outside of the organization because of the pending sale of MLSE, and he was left with no alternative other than to promote from within the organization. Subsequently, Mariner was given the reigns to see if he could turn the ship around...

... and a 3 year contract extension in early May. It's a big ship apparently.

[ManUtd4ever]

but the point that is often being forgotten is that it was not within Winter's job description to find and sign players at the time they (Winter, De Klerk, Mariner) were hired.....at least not as his job was described to the public.....that responsibility was Mariner's, Cochrane's, or both......more heads should've rolled when Winter's did, but instead those heads were actually given positions of more responsibility......

By that rationale, everyone in the management team should have been dismissed, including Winter, DeKlerk, Mariner, and Cochrane. There's one problem; with a moratorium on hiring personnel because of the pending sale of MLSE, who would have been left to assume the various managerial responsibilities at the time with 2/3 of the season and the CCL on the horizon?

I can imagine the reaction on this board if the FO was cleaned out in May, and we were left with Thomas Rongen, Jim Brennan, and Danny Dichio at the helm until the off season.

[v00d00daddy]

Or

D) Winter had to be dismissed after his horrendous start to the campaign. Anselmi (even though he has no business running a football club) had his hands tied in terms of hiring a replacement from outside of the organization because of the pending sale of MLSE, and he was left with no alternative other than to promote from within the organization. Subsequently, Mariner was given the reigns to see if he could turn the ship around.

Was he also given the power to scrap the possession based plan, move out several players, trade and acquire DP's?

If so..again...Anselmi is an idiot and those people supporting this kind of behaviour because they like the "lad" from England are a part of the problem too.

We were all lied to on more than one occasion. First by Anselmi about the clubs intentions of installing a possession, attacking based philosophy for the long haul and then by Mariner himself when he told us that it was just going to take a few tweaks to fix things.

But many people are okay with this because we're not losing every game.

Despite how bad we look. How badly we're being outplayed in most games.

It's lunacy.

I hope they have a town hall where I can ask Mariner just what part of this season seems like a "tweak" to him.

All "passion" and hugging of the players in the world won't save him from looking like a liar.

Btw...I haven't heard anyone comment on Mariners post Chicago comments.

I guess it's only terrible when Winter throws players under the bus.

[v00d00daddy]

By that rationale, everyone in the management team should have been dismissed, including Winter, DeKlerk, Mariner, and Cochrane. There's one problem; with a moratorium on hiring personnel because of the pending sale of MLSE, who would have been left to assume the various managerial responsibilities at the time with 2/3 of the season and the CCL on the horizon?

I can imagine the reaction on this board if the FO was cleaned out in May, and we were left with Thomas Rongen, Jim Brennan, and Danny Dichio at the helm until the off season.

I don't give a shit who it would have been. The season was lost.

I didn't even initially mind Mariner as the choice. I didn't like it but I also didn't hate it like I do now.

I Would have preferred that they find a coach to continue the vision. And if they couldn't...I hoped that whoever took over in the meantime would stick to the vision and try to get better results.

Neither happened.

And please don't bring up the CCL cause we were doing just fine in that competition under the previous coach.

He was fired for lack of results in the league because the FO knew that a continuance of that terrible start would result in poor SSH renewals.

At least that's how I see it.

[Beach_Red]

Was he also given the power to scrap the possession based plan, move out several players, trade and acquire DP's?

If so..again...Anselmi is an idiot and those people supporting this kind of behaviour because they like the "lad" from England are a part of the problem too.

We were all lied to on more than one occasion. First by Anselmi about the clubs intentions of installing a possession, attacking based philosophy for the long haul and then by Mariner himself when he told us that it was just going to take a few tweaks to fix things.

But many people are okay with this because we're not losing every game.

Despite how bad we look. How badly we're being outplayed in most games.

It's lunacy.

I hope they have a town hall where I can ask Mariner just what part of this season seems like a "tweak" to him.

All "passion" and hugging of the players in the world won't save him from looking like a liar.

Btw...I haven't heard anyone comment on Mariners post Chicago comments.

I guess it's only terrible when Winter throws players under the bus.

Sure, if that's where you want to date the "first" from Anselmi, that's fine. But it may go back a little further....

[ManUtd4ever]

I don't give a shit who it would have been. The season was lost.

I didn't even initially mind Mariner as the choice. I didn't like it but I also didn't hate it like I do now.

I Would have preferred that they find a coach to continue the vision. And if they couldn't...I hoped that whoever took over in the meantime would stick to the vision and try to get better results.

Neither happened.

And please don't bring up the CCL cause we were doing just fine in that competition under the previous coach.

He was fired for lack of results in the league because the FO knew that a continuance of that terrible start would result in poor SSH renewals.

At least that's how I see it.

Guess what Voodoo, it's a business, and the reaction of the STH base will always be the primary motivating factor, despite the fact that you don't give a shit if the team was left without a semblence of a FO for the bulk of the regular season and the CCL.

[TFC Tifoso]

By that rationale, everyone in the management team should have been dismissed, including Winter, DeKlerk, Mariner, and Cochrane. There's one problem; with a moratorium on hiring personnel because of the pending sale of MLSE, who would have been left to assume the various managerial responsibilities at the time with 2/3 of the season and the CCL on the horizon?

I can imagine the reaction on this board if the FO was cleaned out in May, and we were left with Thomas Rongen, Jim Brennan, and Danny Dichio at the helm until the off season.

fair enough, but if that is the case, then why allow Mariner to have so much authority without having the guarantee that he will even be around next season?......that is a question for Anselmi really.....but in my mind Anselmi and Cochrane absolutely have to go in the offseason as they are the common denominator(s) in all this from TFC's beginning.......

[Pookie]

Guess what Voodoo, it's a business, and the reaction of the STH base will always be the primary motivating factor, despite the fact that you don't give a shit if the team was left without a semblence of a FO for the bulk of the regular season and the CCL.

It is a business. So too though is the model for every team in the league.

Jacking prices up to where they are now over a short time frame has put them in a mode where they need to get results immediately. Not many other clubs face this self imposed pressure.

Some teams like Seattle, offer even further discounts for 3 year commitments on season tickets. Heck, SKC played in a baseball stadium while they rebuilt their infrastructure (and new stadium). They are now witnessing the fruits of a commitment to a long term model. Many MLS clubs are earning the right to do long term business with their fans based on a customer focused approach, with fair pricing and genuine willingness to invest in things that will make them better.

If Anselmi has pushed the fan base to the point where renewals hang on the balance of whether or not they can post a .500 record through the next 12 games... clearly, he has only himself to blame.

Personally, I think that without a price reduction, renewals were going to be in trouble anyways. You can't charge prices higher than the LA Galaxy and expect to sell out.

[ManUtd4ever]

For the record, I agree that the prices for STHs should be discounted next season, and I don't think Anselmi or Cochrane should still be employed with the organization.

My point is that it was obvious that Winter's time was up, and since it wasn't feasible to hire a new management team outside the organization under the circumstances, Mariner's promotion was par for the course. Furthermore, as I stated previously, he deserves to succeed or fail of his own volition, without being handcuffed regarding player acquisitions or his preferred tactical approach. He also deserves the rest of the season and the CCL in order to be judged accordingly.

[Canary10]

For the record, I agree that the prices for STHs should be discounted next season, and I don't think Anselmi or Cochrane should still be employed with the organization.

My point is that it was obvious that Winter's time was up, and since it wasn't feasible to hire a new management team outside the organization under the circumstances, Mariner's promotion was par for the course. Furthermore, as I stated previously, he deserves to succeed or fail of his own volition, without being handcuffed regarding player acquisitions or his preferred tactical approach. He also deserves the rest of the season and the CCL in order to be judged accordingly.

There is no evidence that the sale of MLSE stopped TFC from being able to hire outside the team. That's pure speculation on your part.

[TFC Tifoso]

For the record, I agree that the prices for STHs should be discounted next season, and I don't think Anselmi or Cochrane should still be employed with the organization.

My point is that it was obvious that Winter's time was up, and since it wasn't feasible to hire a new management team outside the organization under the circumstances, Mariner's promotion was par for the course. Furthermore, as I stated previously, he deserves to succeed or fail of his own volition, without being handcuffed regarding player acquisitions or his preferred tactical approach. He also deserves the rest of the season and the CCL in order to be judged accordingly.

and what a few here are saying is that you could apply that exact point to Winter, considering it was Mariner/Cochrane who were supposedly getting the players for him......also, if the intent really was to continue the approach that Winter started, then why not have De Klerk as head coach instead of mysteriously removing him from the sidelines?......it all just reeks of ulterior motives and agenda........TFC (ie. Anselmi) hit the panic button yet again, but they are fooling less and less people every time.......

[Auzzy]

For the record, I agree that the prices for STHs should be discounted next season, and I don't think Anselmi or Cochrane should still be employed with the organization.

My point is that it was obvious that Winter's time was up, and since it wasn't feasible to hire a new management team outside the organization under the circumstances, Mariner's promotion was par for the course. Furthermore, as I stated previously, he deserves to succeed or fail of his own volition, without being handcuffed regarding player acquisitions or his preferred tactical approach. He also deserves the rest of the season and the CCL in order to be judged accordingly.

^ You are just making that up, that they couldn't hire a new management team now due to the impending sale of MLSE. We have no idea what is & what isn't allowed in the current situation. Many people were also saying that they couldn't make DP changes & other major player transactions due to the impending sale: not true as it turns out. Further people (incl. Mariner himself) were saying they would only make minor tweaks, which would make sense also given the impending sale and that we were in mid-season -- also not true as we see. Then people were saying: the long-term vision will stay regardless, the academy will continue training & developing under the plan that was extensively laid out to us & the world -- now we hear that things are also changing at that end.


It's all pretty nuts. Anselmi & everyone below him should really only be acting as caretakers now given the impending sale. I've been hot & cold about Mariner at different times. On the best days, I was hoping he would do some of the things that Winter had trouble with: be pragmatic; tweak things; play every game flexibly in a way that best fits TFC's available players as well as the opposition; do a better job preparing & motivating the players; be a little smarter with PR; etc.


Instead Mariner makes major long-term changes in roster & playing style; he also seems inflexible, sticking with a formation, playing style & certain players even when it isn't working (e.g., always subbing in Maund in the 2nd half, regardless of the score, the opposition, and the way the game is going); playing in a way that marginalizes some of our best players (and then dumping or benching some of those players). Vs. Chicago it didn't even look like he could motivate the players any more: many of them looked disinterested for large portions of the game. And Mariners PR -- he's mostly avoided trashing (i.e. motivating) the opposition, which was sometimes comical under Winter; but Mariner also gives the "up-yours" to the West stand, is starting to throw players under the bus, etc...


Aron Winter should never have been hired: much too inexperienced & unproven at the top pro level (especially for a long-suffering club like TFC). And Mariner should never have been hired as the backup & the player acquisition guy for a attacking/ possession-based style. Nor should he be taking over the ship in this situation. I don't know what that means, we're obviously stuck with the guy for this season. But they have to start cleaning house from way at the top, starting within the next month or two, or this whole thing is going down. The Town Halls & SSH renewals are going to be an absolute shit show this year.

[ManUtd4ever]

Yes, the moratorium on hiring decisions within the FO is speculation on my part, but it is speculation based on sound reasoning and logic. Obviously, Bell, Rogers & Co. will want to make their own determination in that regard in the off season.

If any of you think that Anselmi had the authority and the fiscal flexibility to hire a new management team from outside the organization at the time with a new ownership group about to purchase controlling shares of the corproration within a matter of a few months, you're entitled to believe whatever you want, but it's a notion that is incredibly naive.

[Auzzy]

^ So they can make DP decisions but not management decisions? You don't know that, you're making that up. Judging by some of the management/coaching salaries that have been made public, they get paid much less than our DPs.

It's just as likely that it has to do with Mariner & Cochrane positioning themselves well for this step over the past 1 1/2 years; and with Anselmi wanting to save his ass & not wanting to admit he doesn't have a clue of what he's doing with TFC.

[ManUtd4ever]

^ So they can make DP decisions but not management decisions? You don't know that, you're making that up. Judging by some of the management/coaching salaries that have been made public, they get paid much less than our DPs.

It's just as likely that it has to do with Mariner & Cochrane positioning themselves well for this step over the past 1 1/2 years; and with Anselmi wanting to save his ass & not wanting to admit he doesn't have a clue of what he's doing with TFC.

The budget for this season already included 3 DPs and the team operates in a league with a salary cap structure. The acquisition of players and the hiring of a brand new front office are hardly analagous situations.

Like I said, if you think that Anslemi had the authority to fire everyone in the front office and hire a new management team with new ownership coming in, knock yourself out.

[Oldtimer]

Yes, the moratorium on hiring decisions within the FO is speculation on my part, but it is speculation based on sound reasoning and logic. Obviously, Bell, Rogers & Co. will want to make their own determination in that regard in the off season.


A totally reasonable speculation. Often sales contracts like the ML$E sale actually require the company involved to keep senior key personnel, and usually keep a "stay steady" approach. (Firing Winter may have needed special approval).


I don't give a shit who it would have been. The season was lost.

I didn't even initially mind Mariner as the choice. I didn't like it but I also didn't hate it like I do now.

I Would have preferred that they find a coach to continue the vision. And if they couldn't...I hoped that whoever took over in the meantime would stick to the vision and try to get better results.

Neither happened.

And please don't bring up the CCL cause we were doing just fine in that competition under the previous coach.

He was fired for lack of results in the league because the FO knew that a continuance of that terrible start would result in poor SSH renewals.

At least that's how I see it.

Thomas Rongen was available to them, and I'm sure he would have been willing to step in, even if it was for an interim basis until they found someone else. He would have kept the vision and just tweaked it to match MLS reality. As a former MLS Cup-winning coach he would know how to do just that.

No, Anselmi installing Mariner was ultimately giving up on the vision and installing yet another traditional guy, just like Mo was a traditional guy. The CSA old-guard must be happy.

[Auzzy]

The budget for this season already included 3 DPs and the team operates in a league with a salary cap structure. The acquisition of players and the hiring of a brand new front office are a hardly analagous situations.

Like I said, if you think that Anslemi had the authority to fire everyone in the front office and hire a new management team with new ownership coming in, knock yourself out.

They are paying for 4 DPs now (paying for JDG's salary above the cap; still paying Danny K.). They also had a deal with Mellberg, i.e., they got the OK from MLSE to pay for a 5th DP. So that was already in the budget for this season? Ah, you're just knocking yourself out.

I don't even think that Anselmi should be hiring or firing anybody, where did you get that idea?! They (incl. Mariner) should be acting in a careful caretaker role now. Instead they're making a whole bunch of expensive & disruptive long-term decisions. That's why new ownership should immediately can Anselmi & the front office once the sale goes through; keep Mariner to muddle about in the meantime; and hire a top guy who has a freaking clue and he can see from there.

They probably won't, so the Town Halls & SSH renewals will be a disaster. Maybe we can make it to 200 players in less than 7 years by next season.

EDIT and yes I agree TR would have been a better caretaker candidate, to improve our lot a bit for this season w/o upsetting the whole apple cart -- and he would still have the Academy to go back to if the "New Guy" hires a different first-team coach.

[T-boy]

A totally reasonable speculation. Often sales contracts like the ML$E sale actually require the company involved to keep senior key personnel, and usually keep a "stay steady" approach. (Firing Winter may have needed special approval).



Thomas Rongen was available to them, and I'm sure he would have been willing to step in, even if it was for an interim basis until they found someone else. He would have kept the vision and just tweaked it to match MLS reality. As a former MLS Cup-winning coach he would know how to do just that.

No, Anselmi installing Mariner was ultimately giving up on the vision and installing yet another traditional guy, just like Mo was a traditional guy. The CSA old-guard must be happy.

It's a big assumption that Rongen would want the position.

[ManUtd4ever]

They are paying for 4 DPs now (paying for JDG's salary above the cap; still paying Danny K.). They also had a deal with Mellberg, i.e., they got the OK from MLSE to pay for a 5th DP. So that was already in the budget for this season? Ah, you're just knocking yourself out.

I don't even think that Anselmi should be hiring or firing anybody, where did you get that idea?! They (incl. Mariner) should be acting in a careful caretaker role now. Instead they're making a whole bunch of expensive & disruptive long-term decisions. That's why new ownership should immediately can Anselmi & the front office once the sale goes through; keep Mariner to muddle about in the meantime; and hire a top guy who has a freaking clue and he can see from there.

They probably won't, so the Town Halls & SSH renewals will be a disaster. Maybe we can make it to 200 players in less than 7 years by next season.

EDIT and yes I agree TR would have been a better caretaker candidate, to improve our lot a bit for this season w/o upsetting the whole apple cart -- and he would still have the Academy to go back to if the "New Guy" hires a different first-team coach.

Mariner has to get approval from Anselmi and the board regarding the budget for player acquisitions. Mariner must have been given the approval to pay a chunk of JDG's remaining salary for the final few months of his contract in order to acquire another DP in his place, based on the circumstances at the time.

In any case, you stated that my assertion regarding the moratorium on hiring front office personnel was unjustified, and I responded in kind.

[T-boy]

Mariner has to get approval from Anselmi and the board regarding the budget for player acquisitions. Mariner must have been given the approval to pay a chunk of JDG's remaining salary for the final few months of his contract in order to acquire another DP in his place, based on the circumstances at the time.

In any case, you stated that my assertion regarding the moratorium on hiring front office personnel was unjustified, and I responded in kind.

I thought Dallas took JDG's whole salary? So we shouldn't be paying anything of it anymore as far as I'm aware.

[ManUtd4ever]

I thought Dallas took JDG's whole salary? So we shouldn't be paying anything of it anymore as far as I'm aware.

It don't believe that has been clarified.

Anyway, it doesn't change the reality of the situation regarding the front office following the dismissal of Aron Winter.

[Auzzy]

^ I'm saying that most of the supposed "moratoriums" that people have said were in place, were not in fact in place. I'm saying none of us actually has a clue, we're all just talking out of our asses, and it would be best to admit that. The only consistent & reasonable expectation is that Anselmi & Co don't have a clue & just continue screwing the long-term success in favour of saving their asses short-term.

[Oldtimer]

It's a big assumption that Rongen would want the position.

My sources indicate he would have been willing to step in (whether he would want it permanently is another issue). He was available.

[Beach_Red]

The budget for this season already included 3 DPs and the team operates in a league with a salary cap structure. The acquisition of players and the hiring of a brand new front office are hardly analagous situations.

Like I said, if you think that Anslemi had the authority to fire everyone in the front office and hire a new management team with new ownership coming in, knock yourself out.

It may not even have anything to do with the sale. Anselmi said himself he needed board approval to make a coaching change - that's not even to say spend money on a new coach, that's even just a change from within.

But there's ben a pattern with TFC of not spending until the money has been collected - we didn't get a Dp until there were a few years of season ticket revenue in the bank, we didn't get grass intil the Edu sale, etc.. We didn't get the Soccer Solutions/Klinsmann consultation until they were desperate. We shouldn't be at all surprised that when the season started 0-9 changes were made (and we also shouldn't be surprised that two more games were played before the scheduled board meeting came around and "fire the coach" was on the agenda).

It would be very interesting to compare the amount TFC have spent on the FO and coaching staff and scouts ov the last six uears with San Jose, Seattle, Vancouver and other teams. We've been saying since day one here there's no salary cap on manegement...

[Pookie]

Yes, the moratorium on hiring decisions within the FO is speculation on my part, but it is speculation based on sound reasoning and logic. Obviously, Bell, Rogers & Co. will want to make their own determination in that regard in the off season.

If any of you think that Anselmi had the authority and the fiscal flexibility to hire a new management team from outside the organization at the time with a new ownership group about to purchase controlling shares of the corproration within a matter of a few months, you're entitled to believe whatever you want, but it's a notion that is incredibly naive.

Hold up

Anselmi had the authority to fire Winter AND prior to all of that, give Mariner a 3 year contract extension. That would imply a good deal of flexibility to get that approved through the Board.

[Beach_Red]

Hold up

Anselmi had the authority to fire Winter AND prior to all of that, give Mariner a 3 year contract extension. That would imply a good deal of flexibility to get that approved through the Board.

Anselmi said in an interview he needed board approval for any "coaching change." are you sure he didn't?

[Canary10]

I thought Dallas took JDG's whole salary? So we shouldn't be paying anything of it anymore as far as I'm aware.

They took the cap hit, not the full salary. The cap hit is for half a season is $175,000. Really, the main thing TFC got out of that trade is the DP spot, which it appears they couldn't really use anyway.

[Richard]

Hold up

Anselmi had the authority to fire Winter AND prior to all of that, give Mariner a 3 year contract extension. That would imply a good deal of flexibility to get that approved through the Board.

Yeh its sad things like this dont get any press. It seems lile this whole organization is built upon taking fans for granted and making sure everyones buddies is well covered financialy when its time for axing. Its like when Mr.Cock traded a first round pick, i bet you before MO came in they promissed him the GM job when he would get fired. This whole thing stinks too much and us fans are getting taken for ride.

[T-boy]

They took the cap hit, not the full salary. The cap hit is for half a season is $175,000. Really, the main thing TFC got out of that trade is the DP spot, which it appears they couldn't really use anyway.

But we got the 175 in salary space, correct? So DP spot and the salary space we can use on somebody else, I assume?

[ManUtd4ever]

Hold up

Anselmi had the authority to fire Winter AND prior to all of that, give Mariner a 3 year contract extension. That would imply a good deal of flexibility to get that approved through the Board.

Once again, it's speculation on my part, but firing Winter and promoting Mariner from within is a far cry from being given the authority to dismantle an entire front office and rebuild it one month into the season with new ownership coming in.

[Super]

But we got the 175 in salary space, correct? So DP spot and the salary space we can use on somebody else, I assume?

Exactly. So we were free and clear to go ahead and sign Mellberg - all within the rules of 3 DP's allowed per season. Unfortunately the league didn't agree with our decision and squashed the deal. Mellberg-gate was born. And with it most of my respect for this league. Thankfully we're not entirely sure that this is indeed how it played out, so fortunately I can live in a bit of denial and pretend that we don't support a team in a Mickey Mouse league. I'd almost rather they made up wierd and typical North American Sawker rules of counting down the clock, kick-in's instead of throw-in's, automatic penalties instead of draws, etc., than trying to dominate and tell individual clubs how to run things - outside of the rules at least.

[Derko]

Hey Guys,

I was away for the weekend and couldn't get the match.

It's too bad you have to go back 53 posts to actually hear a comment about the game itself.

[Pookie]

Once again, it's speculation on my part, but firing Winter and promoting Mariner from within is a far cry from being given the authority to dismantle an entire front office and rebuild it one month into the season with new ownership coming in.

But a 3 year extension is less than a far cry from offering the job to a new manager. It is committing term and dollars to an individual beyond this pending sale. If that was indeed a barrier, then Anselmi appears to have fond a way around it.

[Pookie]

Hey Guys,

I was away for the weekend and couldn't get the match.

It's too bad you have to go back 53 posts to actually hear a comment about the game itself.

Game was the same story from virtually every game ths far under Mariner. Out shot. Out possessed.

Goal came from a gift. Foul on Hall was BS but when you give up 22 shots odds are that one of them is going to go in eventually. No one to blame but the game plan itself.

Hurts to say it but Chicago was the better team and deserved the 3 points.

[Canary10]

But we got the 175 in salary space, correct? So DP spot and the salary space we can use on somebody else, I assume?

You'd think we could use the space, but whether it's JDG's space of Koefs' space, for some reason we have one extra one and we can't use it. Only the league and TFC know why.

[brad]

They took the cap hit, not the full salary. The cap hit is for half a season is $175,000. Really, the main thing TFC got out of that trade is the DP spot, which it appears they couldn't really use anyway.

I think we did use the DP slot. Frings takes one, Koevs takes one, and the one we freed up with the JDG trade allowed Hassli to come in. I think if we kept JDG we wouldn't have gotten Hassli. We didn't get Koevs DP slot back if I recall correctly.

[Derko]

Game was the same story from virtually every game ths far under Mariner. Out shot. Out possessed.

Goal came from a gift. Foul on Hall was BS but when you give up 22 shots odds are that one of them is going to go in eventually. No one to blame but the game plan itself.

Hurts to say it but Chicago was the better team and deserved the 3 points.

Thanks for the rundown Pookie

[jazzy]

^ You are just making that up, that they couldn't hire a new management team now due to the impending sale of MLSE. We have no idea what is & what isn't allowed in the current situation. Many people were also saying that they couldn't make DP changes & other major player transactions due to the impending sale: not true as it turns out. Further people (incl. Mariner himself) were saying they would only make minor tweaks, which would make sense also given the impending sale and that we were in mid-season -- also not true as we see. Then people were saying: the long-term vision will stay regardless, the academy will continue training & developing under the plan that was extensively laid out to us & the world -- now we hear that things are also changing at that end.


It's all pretty nuts. Anselmi & everyone below him should really only be acting as caretakers now given the impending sale. I've been hot & cold about Mariner at different times. On the best days, I was hoping he would do some of the things that Winter had trouble with: be pragmatic; tweak things; play every game flexibly in a way that best fits TFC's available players as well as the opposition; do a better job preparing & motivating the players; be a little smarter with PR; etc.


Instead Mariner makes major long-term changes in roster & playing style; he also seems inflexible, sticking with a formation, playing style & certain players even when it isn't working (e.g., always subbing in Maund in the 2nd half, regardless of the score, the opposition, and the way the game is going); playing in a way that marginalizes some of our best players (and then dumping or benching some of those players). Vs. Chicago it didn't even look like he could motivate the players any more: many of them looked disinterested for large portions of the game. And Mariners PR -- he's mostly avoided trashing (i.e. motivating) the opposition, which was sometimes comical under Winter; but Mariner also gives the "up-yours" to the West stand, is starting to throw players under the bus, etc...


Aron Winter should never have been hired: much too inexperienced & unproven at the top pro level (especially for a long-suffering club like TFC). And Mariner should never have been hired as the backup & the player acquisition guy for a attacking/ possession-based style. Nor should he be taking over the ship in this situation. I don't know what that means, we're obviously stuck with the guy for this season. But they have to start cleaning house from way at the top, starting within the next month or two, or this whole thing is going down. The Town Halls & SSH renewals are going to be an absolute shit show this year.

well thought out but some of us may not even care to go to "town house"......exercise in futility,...only way i'm going if fo is gone.............ya right.....it's simply maple leaf soccer club until rogers/bell grow some

[Super]

I think we did use the DP slot. Frings takes one, Koevs takes one, and the one we freed up with the JDG trade allowed Hassli to come in. I think if we kept JDG we wouldn't have gotten Hassli. We didn't get Koevs DP slot back if I recall correctly.

That may be true, but that was never the explanation given by either Garber or TFC. Garber said that TFC looked at the deal and just couldn't make the numbers fit. Mellberg's agent said that the league nixed it. TFC said that the league nixed it. I'm sure that if indeed it was just a simple issue such as "TFC had used up their 3 DP slots" I'm sure Garber, TFC or Mellberg's agent would have said that. Why leave it open to interpretation, especially considering how fed up the Toronto supporters are with the state of things. I think we all would've accepted that explanation, it is after all a rule of the league and equal for all (officially at least). No one said that. In fact, if you're to believe Soccer by Ives a 2-year $1.5 million deal (meaning DP) was ready to go - but the league nixed it. Everyone but Garber says that. Moreover, according to Ives, the reason why the league nixed the deal is because they do not want to pay centerbacks BIG money, it would set a precedent they don't want. Remember, there's only one DP CB in the league, Rafa Marquez, but TONS of midfielders and strikers. In the case of Rafa, he's Mexican, and poorly attended NYRB (and the league) probably hoped this would bring out more Hispanics. It didn't. Also, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that defenders just don't make headlines - so why spend so much money on a guy that'll likely never be a highlight of his team. He is after all a defender, the unsong heroes of the game.

Either way I feel like we got seriously shafted on a deal that could have immediately improved our club - unlike our current dealings in CB that is just more hoping for the best.

[jazzy]

But we got the 175 in salary space, correct? So DP spot and the salary space we can use on somebody else, I assume?

it seems on the DP spot apparently not....but at time the powers to be thought otherwise

[narduch]

MLS did TFC a favour by nixing that deal with Mellberg. The money we were reported to be paying him was insane. I'm sure he wasn't making even close to that in the Greek league the last 3 seasons.

Besides, blaming MLS is an easy answer for the FO apologists (look up who was the first to report it and continues to call Garber a liar). I don't think that's really the case. The way I read the situation is that TFC simply didn't have the cap space to pull off the deal (ie. TFC didn't have room for the non-DP portion of the salarly). The idiot's in the TFC FO were to blame. Blaming the league is a way for Mariner and Cochrane to cover their asses.

[jazzy]

Hey Guys,

I was away for the weekend and couldn't get the match.

It's too bad you have to go back 53 posts to actually hear a comment about the game itself.

true but what's to say.......compared to the women;s national team's game,..lets say, it was tiring, 2007,.revisited....blah blah...we're all tired of banging our heads on the wall,..and trying to find something ,..anything of interest.......we're not very good are we!

[Pookie]

That may be true, but that was never the explanation given by either Garber or TFC. Garber said that TFC looked at the deal and just couldn't make the numbers fit. Mellberg's agent said that the league nixed it. TFC said that the league nixed it. I'm sure that if indeed it was just a simple issue such as "TFC had used up their 3 DP slots" I'm sure Garber, TFC or Mellberg's agent would have said that. Why leave it open to interpretation, especially considering how fed up the Toronto supporters are with the state of things. I think we all would've accepted that explanation, it is after all a rule of the league and equal for all (officially at least). No one said that. In fact, if you're to believe Soccer by Ives a 2-year $1.5 million deal (meaning DP) was ready to go - but the league nixed it. Everyone but Garber says that. Moreover, according to Ives, the reason why the league nixed the deal is because they do not want to pay centerbacks BIG money, it would set a precedent they don't want. Remember, there's only one DP CB in the league, Rafa Marquez, but TONS of midfielders and strikers. In the case of Rafa, he's Mexican, and poorly attended NYRB (and the league) probably hoped this would bring out more Hispanics. It didn't. Also, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that defenders just don't make headlines - so why spend so much money on a guy that'll likely never be a highlight of his team. He is after all a defender, the unsong heroes of the game.

Either way I feel like we got seriously shafted on a deal that could have immediately improved our club - unlike our current dealings in CB that is just more hoping for the best.

BayernTFC provide a really good link to Mellberg's agent's view of the situation. MLS didn't like the salary negotiated but it was clear that when they grabbed Hassli, there was no room for Mellberg.


This is from the link that bayernTFC shared: (google translate)

Olof Mellberg was on his way to Toronto.
But now experiencing fotbollskanalen.se that the transition looks to crack.

Toronto wanted Olof Mellberg - and the Swedish center-back was keen on a move to Canada.

- Why should we not be interested in Mellberg? He is a fantastic player who made an incredible Championship, said the club's sporting director Paul Mariner to fotbollskanalen.se last week.

But now övegången out to crack. Fotbollskanalen.se experience that it depends on two things. For one thing MLS negative about the high salary that Toronto and Mellberg negotiated (all contracts must be approved by the league) and injured Striker Danny Koevermans which meant that the club was forced to recruit a new striker as his tedje Designated player.

Two weeks ago, in the 1-0 victory against New England, injured Danny Koevermans left knee so badly that he misses the rest of the season. Therefore forced Toronto to act quickly and acquire Vancouver's French striker Eric Hassli as a replacement. Thus he became the club's third Designated Player, and it means that the current situation is no place for Olof Mellberg on the team.

Team in MLS will have three so-called "Designated players", who may have higher salaries than 350 $ 000 (2 500 000 million) a year.

[Canary10]

It was reported when Koef got hurt that we got the DP spot back but no cap relief. So we should still have one DP spot now, but I can imagine we don't have the cap room to actually use it. Of course, it all gets complicated if/when Koef returns as the spot would be taken up again. Any DP contract, I would think, could only be for the rest of this year.

[Super]

BayernTFC provide a really good link to Mellberg's agent's view of the situation. MLS didn't like the salary negotiated but it was clear that when they grabbed Hassli, there was no room for Mellberg.


This is from the link that bayernTFC shared: (google translate)

Olof Mellberg was on his way to Toronto.
But now experiencing fotbollskanalen.se that the transition looks to crack.

Toronto wanted Olof Mellberg - and the Swedish center-back was keen on a move to Canada.

- Why should we not be interested in Mellberg? He is a fantastic player who made an incredible Championship, said the club's sporting director Paul Mariner to fotbollskanalen.se last week.

But now övegången out to crack. Fotbollskanalen.se experience that it depends on two things. For one thing MLS negative about the high salary that Toronto and Mellberg negotiated (all contracts must be approved by the league) and injured Striker Danny Koevermans which meant that the club was forced to recruit a new striker as his tedje Designated player.

Two weeks ago, in the 1-0 victory against New England, injured Danny Koevermans left knee so badly that he misses the rest of the season. Therefore forced Toronto to act quickly and acquire Vancouver's French striker Eric Hassli as a replacement. Thus he became the club's third Designated Player, and it means that the current situation is no place for Olof Mellberg on the team.

Team in MLS will have three so-called "Designated players", who may have higher salaries than 350 $ 000 (2 500 000 million) a year.

So what you're saying is that Kouvermans, even injured, will sit on that third DP spot (Frings and Hassli being the other 2)? That was NEVER communicated to us by either Garber, TFC or the Toronto media - at least that I've seen. I still hold the belief that the league nixed it, not because we couldn't come up with the money, but because they just didn't like the deal - effectively killing any chance of us fixing our number one problem (the defense). Like I've said before, if it comes out officially that the league nixed the deal then that is totally not acceptable, and I will seriously think about turning my back on this league. Why bother supporting a team when we're at the mercy of Garber and his lawyers?

But let's do the math here. When we cut De Guzman, didn't Dallas take over his cap cost? We just have to pay his salary above the cap. Either way we got the DP spot back. So De Guzman was an even swap with Hassli - at least as far as the cap is concerned. Following this we cut quite a few players, freeing up a lot of salary. Surely we had $175k cleared, didn't we? If we did, then we could have made the deal.

[ag futbol]

Said it before, I'll say it again: absolutely no way Dallas is paying JDG's salary. I would keep that in mind before savaging the league office over giving us the use of what would effectively be the 5th designated player on payroll.


MLS did TFC a favour by nixing that deal with Mellberg. The money we were reported to be paying him was insane. I'm sure he wasn't making even close to that in the Greek league the last 3 seasons.

Besides, blaming MLS is an easy answer for the FO apologists (look up who was the first to report it and continues to call Garber a liar). I don't think that's really the case. The way I read the situation is that TFC simply didn't have the cap space to pull off the deal (ie. TFC didn't have room for the non-DP portion of the salarly). The idiot's in the TFC FO were to blame. Blaming the league is a way for Mariner and Cochrane to cover their asses.
Exactly. We've seen enough of how our bumbling management team conducts themselves to take an educated guess at who dropped the ball.

[BayernTFC]

Why bother supporting a team when we're at the mercy of Garber and his lawyers?
It's a good question. I don't mean to burst your bubble, but:



Like all MLS contracts, they would be subject to league approval.
http://www.sounderatheart.com/2012/8/4/3219986/softening-the-salary-cap




Under applicable player assignment policies, MLS centrally allocates the top or “marquee” players among the teams, aiming to prevent talent imbalances and assure a degree of comparability of team strength in order to promote competitive soccer matches. These assignments are effective unless disapproved by a two-thirds vote of the subcommittee of the Management Committee. Most of the rest of the players-the non-”marquee” players-are selected for teams by the individual operator-investors through player drafts and the like. The league allows player trades between teams, but MLS's central league office must approve (and routinely does approve) such trades.



MLS's player policies, in particular, do not call for application of the independent personal stake exception. The operator-investors benefit from these policies because centralized contracting for player services results in lower salaries. However, that benefit is, in the MLS structure, a derivative one. No operator has an individual player payroll to worry about; the league pays the salaries. Moreover, the MLS investor gets the lower-cost benefits in exchange for having surrendered the degree of autonomy that team owners in “plural entity” leagues typically enjoy. The reason an individual team owner in one of the other leagues is willing to bid up players' salaries to get the particular players it wants is because by paying high salaries to get desirable players, the owner can achieve other substantial benefits, such as increased sales of tickets and promotional goods, media revenues, and the like. The MLS operator-investors have largely yielded that opportunity to the central league.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=YO80DTGw1MEC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=all+mls+player+contracts+need+league+approval&source=bl&ots=Jh3O4HbRc2&sig=qoBrUvhjicS2XYBTB_FVI2sVDko&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GYEiUO7CC47gtQaM-4DYBw&ved=0CFIQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=all mls player contracts need league approval&f=false (http://books.google.ca/books?id=YO80DTGw1MEC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=all+mls+player+contracts+need+league+approval&source=bl&ots=Jh3O4HbRc2&sig=qoBrUvhjicS2XYBTB_FVI2sVDko&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GYEiUO7CC47gtQaM-4DYBw&ved=0CFIQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=all%20mls%20player%20contracts%20need%20league%2 0approval&f=false)

[Canary10]

"Said it before, I'll say it again: absolutely no way Dallas is paying JDG's salary. I would keep that in mind before savaging the league office over giving us the use of what would effectively be the 5th designated player on payroll."

It was stated that Dallas were taking the cap hit of $175,000. I'm sure that's the case. Everything over and above is TFC's.

I think we do have the DP space available, but I would love to know how we could structure a contract so that it isn't a DP one when Koevermans comes back. I imagine the league politely asked Cochrane what was going to happen when we have 4 DPs on the books at the start of next year.

[T-boy]

Basically the league is f*cked up if a season ending injury means you can't replace him, and secondly that if you transfer to another club, you still count as a DP for your original club.

The rules of the MLS are just rediculous sometimes! It's no wonder a lot of quality p[layers won't come to this mickey mouse league! Until the rules are transparent, the league will never develop beyond a feeder/retirement league :(

[Pookie]

^ keep in mind that the league pays all salaries up to the max amount. Anything above and beyond is the team's. It would appear then that Dallas isn't paying anything for JDG.

As for the DP space, this isn't unlike the NHL (though there are some differences) You can replace a player on a Long Term Injury Relief but once that player becomes healthy, you have to be back under the cap. That's why teams typically don't replace a player that may come back during the season. All contracts are valid and active, even if the player isn't able to play.

In this case, I believe Koevermans still counts as our DP. He is still being paid under his contract terms and the league is fairly clear on their website that an injured player can be replaced, if there is budget flexibility to do so. That implies all terms and conditions of the injured players contract are still active. From the league's site:


A team with a player lost to a season-ending injury can place the player on the Season Ending Injury List and replace that player on its roster, while remaining responsible for the full amount of the injured player’s salary. A player can be placed on the season-ending injury list once another player has been signed as a replacement (provided the team has budget space).

In grabbing Hassli, that was the last spot. Koevermans' salary, terms and conditions still apply. His contract wasn't cancelled. Mellberg couldn't fit. Not sure where the mystery is.

[Richard]

^ keep in mind that the league pays all salaries up to the max amount. Anything above and beyond is the team's. It would appear then that Dallas isn't paying anything for JDG.

As for the DP space, this isn't unlike the NHL (though there are some differences) You can replace a player on a Long Term Injury Relief but once that player becomes healthy, you have to be back under the cap. That's why teams typically don't replace a player that may come back during the season. All contracts are valid and active, even if the player isn't able to play.

In this case, I believe Koevermans still counts as our DP. He is still being paid under his contract terms and the league is fairly clear on their website that an injured player can be replaced, if there is budget flexibility to do so. That implies all terms and conditions of the injured players contract are still active. From the league's site:


A team with a player lost to a season-ending injury can place the player on the Season Ending Injury List and replace that player on its roster, while remaining responsible for the full amount of the injured player’s salary. A player can be placed on the season-ending injury list once another player has been signed as a replacement (provided the team has budget space).

In grabbing Hassli, that was the last spot. Koevermans' salary, terms and conditions still apply. His contract wasn't cancelled. Mellberg couldn't fit. Not sure where the mystery is.

I understand the point of the whole single entity idea but you know at some point the training wheels got to come off. Could you direct me to a website or if you want explain me how the league is paying salaries. Do teams only make money in this league because they dont pay wages? That is pretty shocking to me if teams cant support 2.5+ Million in wages.

[T-boy]

The "mystery" is in Hassli's contract and his "option" to extend. If he doesn't extend, then we aren't over the DP limit for next season. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a precident for handling this. It appears that Mellberg's signing was not allowed as it would put TFC over the DP spots for NEXT year, not this one. But we aren't over the limit if 1. Hassli doesn't extend or 2. Koev's doesn't come back from injury. In which case Mellberg could have filled a DP spot for this season, and then either Hassli's or Koev's next season.

It's going to be very annoying if/when Hassli doesn't pick up next season's option AND Koev's retires through injury. We then have TWO DP spots available, and we could have signed Mellberg after all! You just know that's all going to happen, sadly and knowing TFC's luck :(

[TFC07]

Hassli better not come as a DP for us. Not sure if Hassli would sign under DP money though.

[Pookie]

@ richard - there isn't a specific website but if you search on MLS Single Entity Ownership, it will explain that the league holds all the contracts. They do this to prevent owners from jacking up prices and creating unnecessary inflation. Since all revenue is shared, the salary money is pooled and used to pay the salaries of the players. My guess is that they pay the base amount. Amounts such as bonuses or incentives are likely paid by the team. MLS Salary Cap is a closely guarded secret but the basics are at least published.

If you look up "Beckham Rule" you'll see quotes there from places like Forbes.com that highlight that it was "... a mechanism that assigned the first $400,000 of the designated players salary against the salary cap with the additional salary becoming the sole responsibility of the team owner."


@ t-boy - I think what you are missing is that while DK's contract is still active, including all terms and salary, he still counts as a DP this year. Frings + Koevermans (on paper) + Hassli = 3. FOr all intents and purposes, his contract is alive and well.

[T-boy]

[QUOTE=Pookie;1519530@ t-boy - I think what you are missing is that while DK's contract is still active, including all terms and salary, he still counts as a DP this year. Frings + Koevermans (on paper) + Hassli = 3. FOr all intents and purposes, his contract is alive and well.[/QUOTE]

I'm a little lost. When Koev's was injured, everybody (including De Vos, Gerber even said it etc) said that TFC would get Koev's DP slot back for the rest of this season, so we could sign a replacement DP for this season. Now everybody is saying the opposite. Where did we get the info that we actually DON'T get the DP slot back? And when did this information change 180 degrees on the original information?

[Super]

It's a good question. I don't mean to burst your bubble, but:

No bubble here. I'm well aware of the fact that the league indeed does have the power to fuck us over (and I've said that on here before) - but I can't remember a time where they truly and completely fucked us over as badly as they did with the Mellberg deal. A player who, in my personal opinion, would have added tremendous value to our team, and they nixed it. I have a lot of issues with the league, and the fact that they have power over our player dealings is top of the list, but up until now it's not really been a problem for us (at least officially).

Garber MUST stop interfering with the dealings of individual clubs. Have rules, fine. But don't tell us what we can and can't do when we're working within the rules. Otherwise why bother if it's not our team, but his team. That's my point. All power to the clubs. Add to that the suspicion that some teams receive preferential treatment, and we're left with a plastic league that should be offensive to any football fan on this planet.

[Super]

I'm a little lost. When Koev's was injured, everybody (including De Vos, Gerber even said it etc) said that TFC would get Koev's DP slot back for the rest of this season, so we could sign a replacement DP for this season. Now everybody is saying the opposite. Where did we get the info that we actually DON'T get the DP slot back? And when did this information change 180 degrees on the original information?

Exactly. We're getting conflicting messages, and the Don won't give us a straight answer. Meanwhile TFC is saying "no comment" officially. This leads me to believe that something is up. If it's just a matter of "all DP slots are used up" then that's an easy explanation and we can all go on with our day. That was never said by ANYONE.

As far as I'm concerned we DO have a DP slot available - at least until I hear otherwise from an official source within the MLS organization, or from TFC. Until then we're just being disrespected as per usual.

[Canary10]

No bubble here. I'm well aware of the fact that the league indeed does have the power to fuck us over (and I've said that on here before) - but I can't remember a time where they truly and completely fucked us over as badly as they did with the Mellberg deal. A player who, in my personal opinion, would have added tremendous value to our team, and they nixed it. I have a lot of issues with the league, and the fact that they have power over our player dealings is top of the list, but up until now it's not really been a problem for us (at least officially).

Garber MUST stop interfering with the dealings of individual clubs. Have rules, fine. But don't tell us what we can and can't do when we're working within the rules. Otherwise why bother if it's not our team, but his team. That's my point. All power to the clubs. Add to that the suspicion that some teams receive preferential treatment, and we're left with a plastic league that should be offensive to any football fan on this planet.

Why are you so certain TFC was operating within the rules? Assuming we got a DP spot for Koef (which, as T-Boy said, is what has been communicated), we would have 1 DP spot after the Hassli deal, but that spot would essentially be time limited based on when Koef comes back. Was the Mellberg deal only for the rest of this season? Not that I heard, in fact I heard it was a 3 year deal. Was the Hassli deal only for the end of the season? All the info I've seen is that the team has an option after next year. However I look at this, it looks like TFC was trying to pull a fast one.

[Super]

Why are you so certain TFC was operating within the rules? Assuming we got a DP spot for Koef (which, as T-Boy said, is what has been communicated), we would have 1 DP spot after the Hassli deal, but that spot would essentially be time limited based on when Koef comes back. Was the Mellberg deal only for the rest of this season? Not that I heard, in fact I heard it was a 3 year deal. Was the Hassli deal only for the end of the season? All the info I've seen is that the team has an option after next year. However I look at this, it looks like TFC was trying to pull a fast one.

I'm not certain of anything - except that there are conflicting stories all over the place. I'm just a simple supporter trying to follow this club - and it's hard to know who to believe. Right now we should have two DP's on our team: Frings and Hassli. I've heard communication from people in the media that we were indeed getting the slot back for Koef (if his injury proved to be season-ending) - so that leaves us with one slot. Salary MAY have been the issue, but De Guzman's salary under the cap goes to Hassli, so no harm there, and outside of that we have cut a LOT of players (Soolsma, Aceval, etc.) that surely would've made up enough to pay Mellberg $175k for a half-season. I've heard no one say anything OFFICIAL to the contrary. It's tough to know who to believe, again due to the transparency issues with our club and this league, and that just leads to speculation. But if I'm to believe the media that follows our club closely, then the league nixed the deal because they didn't like Mellberg - and after that the Don lied to us about it. If he didn't lie to us, then TFC did - through the media.

Are YOU guys okay with that - considering the time and money you invest into this club/league? I'm definitely not. This is not how you grow a club and a league.

[Canary10]

I'm not certain of anything - except that there are conflicting stories all over the place. I'm just a simple supporter trying to follow this club - and it's hard to know who to believe. Right now we should have two DP's on our team: Frings and Hassli. I've heard communication from people in the media that we were indeed getting the slot back for Koef (if his injury proved to be season-ending) - so that leaves us with one slot. Salary MAY have been the issue, but De Guzman's salary under the cap goes to Hassli, so no harm there, and outside of that we have cut a LOT of players (Soolsma, Aceval, etc.) that surely would've made up enough to pay Mellberg $175k for a half-season. I've heard no one say anything OFFICIAL to the contrary. It's tough to know who to believe, again due to the transparency issues with our club and this league, and that just leads to speculation. But if I'm to believe the media that follows our club closely, then the league nixed the deal because they didn't like Mellberg - and after that the Don lied to us about it. If he didn't lie to us, then TFC did - through the media.

Are YOU guys okay with that - considering the time and money you invest into this club/league? I'm definitely not. This is not how you grow a club and a league.

Well I agree with you here. Everything about it lacks transparency, from both sides.

The thing I can't see TFC getting around is that the open DP spot is contingent on Koevermans being injured, and we don't know when he'll be back. That makes it pretty damn hard to structure any kind of contract for a replacement.

[Pookie]

I'm a little lost. When Koev's was injured, everybody (including De Vos, Gerber even said it etc) said that TFC would get Koev's DP slot back for the rest of this season, so we could sign a replacement DP for this season. Now everybody is saying the opposite. Where did we get the info that we actually DON'T get the DP slot back? And when did this information change 180 degrees on the original information?

I think you'd need to see a quote from Garber directly on whether we get the DP slot back.

There was a lot happening around the same time with Julian being traded on the 13th and Hassli being picked up on the 21st. It is really hard to keep everything straight. You aren't alone.

Richard Farley is a writer with NBCSports.com and wrote this when Hassli was picked up (and after the JDG trade)

Toronto is back up to three designated players after agreeing to take on Eric Hassli, sending a 2014 first round pick and an international spot (through 2013) to Vancouver. The 31-year-old French striker will slot into the injured Danny Koevermans’ spot with the Reds’s XI while Martin Rennie will have to find somebody to take Hassli’s spot on his bench. Perhaps he could stack the remainder of Hassli’s $790,000 salary in the spot.

http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/21/vancouver-finds-taker-for-hassli-toronto-finds-koevermans-replacement/

[Super]

Well I agree with you here. Everything about it lacks transparency, from both sides.

The thing I can't see TFC getting around is that the open DP spot is contingent on Koevermans being injured, and we don't know when he'll be back. That makes it pretty damn hard to structure any kind of contract for a replacement.

Hassli's contract allowed us to shop without fear of next year because we would've simply opted not to keep him in 2013. That would give us Frings, Koefs and Mellberg. 3 DP's. All within the rules. Unless, again, someone tell me otherwise from a credible official source. Even the media doesn't really know what the hell is going on.

I think it's pretty lame that we're following a team in a league where the DP-model is not truly understood by the supporters due to the lack of transparency. In all my years of following clubs (well, two, Aalborg in Denmark and Arsenal to a lesser extend) I've never been so confused about what goes on behind the scene as I am with the MLS. Heck, look at NYRB and LA and how MANY are suspicious about their activities on the market - again because of the lack of transparency. Are they getting preferential treatment? NYRB signed a DP CB, but we're not allowed to? It's just a joke, really, and shows a tremendous lack of respect for the supporters. Again, not a great way to build a league, and it just gives ammo to the people who don't like the league - and I know plenty of them locally. Can't really argue with them.

Hopefully the whole salary cap thing will go away soon enough. It's not even in place to prevent overspending as most clubs already have DP's, and yet they're not profitable. So the salary cap is in place to stop us from spending 5 million on the team, but it's okay to spend 5 million on 3 guys. BEYOND STUPID!

[Super]

Richard Farley is a writer with NBCSports.com and wrote this when Hassli was picked up (and after the JDG trade)

Not the story we got from others in the media. Richard is more of an authority?

Would be great if the league would just give us the real truth so we can settle this once and for all. I think it's important - I'd like to understand WHY things happen with my club.

[Pookie]

Exactly. We're getting conflicting messages, and the Don won't give us a straight answer. Meanwhile TFC is saying "no comment" officially. This leads me to believe that something is up. If it's just a matter of "all DP slots are used up" then that's an easy explanation and we can all go on with our day. That was never said by ANYONE.


Honestly, I don't think that anyone has ever run into this situation before.

If you are Earl Cochrane, can you actually come out and say "All DP slots are used up" knowing the fans know you were negotiating with Mellberg on the belief that you could fit him in? It would be another public example of incompentence and I'm sure they don't want that type of press. No Comment is a way out.

For the league, they are not backing TFC into a corner. They simply say that they didn't kill the deal but that TFC couldn't fit him under the salary structure. Which is funny since a DP has a max cap hit of $335k (half that at mid-season) and we did manage to bring in both Amarikwa and O'Dea whose combined salary may approach that number, not to mention the release of Soolsma and Plata and Aceval which if done properly, would have netted plenty of cap room.

It's a story waiting to be dug into. Though both sides (MLS and TFC) are clearly not interested in providing fuel for a public inquiry.

To me, this is the league simply wading in to bail TFC out of a situation that they created for themselves through alleged incompetence (DeRo's Permission, Plata's Fee, Plata's Loan back to the same team, etc). I wouldn't expect either side to offer complete clarity on the issue.

[Super]

Oh, HERE WE GO re: DeGuzman:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/07/13/mls_mashup_paul_mariner_tfc_julian_deguzman/

Mariner said:

-- Declined to say if TFC will pay any of de Guzman's salary for the rest of the season, but did say Dallas takes the full salary cap hit. Mariner: "Dallas is taking the cap it (and) this creates significant flexibility for the team moving forward."
-- Mariner said the trade opens up a DP slot and that team is in negotiations with players who can fill that DP slot.

SO that leaves the question - are we getting a free half-year DP slot from Koev's injury? If that's the case then we DO have a DP slot open right now.

[Pookie]

^ We did get a space back from JDG's trade. It would make no sense that it stays on our books when he is playing for Dallas.

If you look at the timeline on our DPs

Prior to July 13th
DP Slots used: 3 (JDG, Koevermans, Frings)

July 13th - trade JDG
DP Slots used: 2 (Koevermans, Frings)

July 14th - Koevermans Injury
DP Slots used: 2 (Koevermans, Frings)

July 21st - Hassli trade
DP Slots used: 3 (Koevermans, Frings, Hassli)

Koevermans is simply still on our books with his contract terms and conditions. We are still paying his DP salary. Which is what the nbcsports.com writer was referring to when he said with Hassli we are back up to 3 DPs.

Trust me, I'm on your side here. I want the truth as well.

[Canary10]

My understanding is Hassli was signed to a 4 year contract in 2011. That brings the contract to 2014. For TFC to be able to walk away next year, there would have to be a clause that the team can nullify the contract after only two years. Is that the case? If so, I don't know why Hassli would sign the original contract.

[Super]

Trust me, I'm on your side here. I want the truth as well.

Oh I know that. We're all in the same boat here, as rocky as it may seem at times.

So now the question begs (as much as I want to trust nbcsports.com) - IS Koevermans' DP slot indeed still used up by him.

[Pookie]

^ I would bet quite a bit of money to say that yes, it is still used by him since his DP contract is still valid with the league.

[Super]

My understanding is Hassli was signed to a 4 year contract in 2011. That brings the contract to 2014. For TFC to be able to walk away next year, there would have to be a clause that the team can nullify the contract after only two years. Is that the case? If so, I don't know why Hassli would sign the original contract.

https://twitter.com/jasondevos/statuses/226469423534465025

Jason deVos: "I’m told that Hassli is in the final year of his contract, with an option year next year. TFC can keep him if they take up the option."

[Canary10]

Oh I know that. We're all in the same boat here, as rocky as it may seem at times.

So now the question begs (as much as I want to trust nbcsports.com) - IS Koevermans' DP slot indeed still used up by him.

A number of TFC reporters said we did get Koevermans DP spot back, just not the cap hit. And seemed pretty certain of that.

[Canary10]

https://twitter.com/jasondevos/statuses/226469423534465025

Jason deVos: "I’m told that Hassli is in the final year of his contract, with an option year next year. TFC can keep him if they take up the option."

This was from a Whitecaps blog site from last year:

Eric Hassli (http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/mls/players/129820/eric-hassli) signed a four-year contract with a base salary of $660,000 per year and guaranteed bonuses of $960,000: his "2011 Guaranteed Salary" is therefore $660,000 + ($960,000 / 4) or $900,000.

[Pookie]

^ when Mellberg's agent replied that once TFC picked up Hassli, they had no DP room for his client... combined with the nbcsports interpretation... and the fact that Mellberg isn't here now... it seems that there is a lot of evidence to suggest that we don't get it back.

[Super]

Holy fuck there's a lot of conflicting information out there for us poor supporters to try and untangle. :(

[Super]

^ when Mellberg's agent replied that once TFC picked up Hassli, they had no DP room for his client... combined with the nbcsports interpretation... and the fact that Mellberg isn't here now... it seems that there is a lot of evidence to suggest that we don't get it back.

Ugh, what a mess.

[Pookie]

Holy fuck there's a lot of conflicting information out there for us poor supporters to try and untangle. :(

Have a beer. It helps.

You know what though? It's awesome that we keep asking these questions. Too often I feel that they think we are just patsies who will lap up everything said and won't challenge a thing. Keep 'em honest.

[Canary10]

If Hassli is on a 4 year deal then TFC would only be able to sign a replacement DP for the rest of this year. In that sense, the Hassli deal would have scuttled the Mellberg deal.

[Super]

Have a beer. It helps.

You know what though? It's awesome that we keep asking these questions. Too often I feel that they think we are just patsies who will lap up everything said and won't challenge a thing. Keep 'em honest.

Beer always helps - especially when it comes to TFC. But yes, I definitely agree that we should ask more questions. We invest a lot of time and money into this club, so certainly want to understand what's going on - and why things happen. Cheers for helping with that!


If Hassli is on a 4 year deal then TFC would only be able to sign a replacement DP for the rest of this year. In that sense, the Hassli deal would have scuttled the Mellberg deal.

That's certainly a possibility. Did TFC ever confirm that he's on a 4 year deal, or is this just more of the same lack of transparency as we saw with Mellberg?

[Canary10]

^ I notice almost every MLS signing announcement has this particular line:

"As per team and league policies terms of the deal were not disclosed."

[Super]

I just asked Molinaro a few questions (he's VERY close to TFC, so I choose to trust him):


Re: Hassli's contract situation:
"mariner said earlier he's under contract until end of season but TFC has an option for next year."


Re: Koevermans DP slot:
"they did free up the spot fir rest of year but TFC still takes cap hit."

SO we DO have Koevermans DP slot. And Hassli CAN be released next year. So this leads me to believe that we could've signed Mellberg - but Garber nixed the deal and seriously FUCKED with our club.

[Pookie]

I just asked Molinaro a few questions (he's VERY close to TFC, so I choose to trust him):


Re: Hassli's contract situation:
"mariner said earlier he's under contract until end of season but TFC has an option for next year."


Re: Koevermans DP slot:
"they did free up the spot fir rest of year but TFC still takes cap hit."

SO we DO have Koevermans DP slot. And Hassli CAN be released next year. So this leads me to believe that we could've signed Mellberg - but Garber nixed the deal and seriously FUCKED with our club.

^ I like John too. John is likely getting his information from TFC though for the most part. Which is Earl/Paul's interpretation of the MLS contractual laws.

Neither Earl or Paul (or Aron for that matter) have experience with this type of thing. They are either former communication directors or former players without contract law training.

Contrast that with the Leafs with Burke (lawyer). He even hired a "Capologist" to help interpret the nuances of the NHL's CBA. Our guys don't have that level of support.

Is it any wonder there are misunderstandings?

[ag futbol]

Is it any wonder there are misunderstandings?
There are always misunderstandings when you are lazy, incompetent, and do everything at the last minute. But hey, it's not like we've ever caught TFC with their pants down when it comes to transfer activity before... oh wait

[Super]

^ I like John too. John is likely getting his information from TFC though for the most part. Which is Earl/Paul's interpretation of the MLS contractual laws.

Neither Earl or Paul (or Aron for that matter) have experience with this type of thing. They are either former communication directors or former players without contract law training.

Contrast that with the Leafs with Burke (lawyer). He even hired a "Capologist" to help interpret the nuances of the NHL's CBA. Our guys don't have that level of support.

Is it any wonder there are misunderstandings?

Do we really need to hire lawyers to figure out if Koeverman's DP slot is available or not? I mean, really? Nah, I don't buy that Earl/Paul were confused by that fact. It's not a case of nuances. It's a case of YES or NO.

Also, I don't think John Molinaro is so lazy that he takes everything TFC tells him as gospel. Surely he must know a thing or two about the rules of the league - same as Soccer By Ives who is another media personality close to the MLS who said Garber is essentially lying. Unless someone is able to prove that indeed Koeverman's DP slot is still in use by him, then I'll choose to believe that Garber lied. Remember, we're dealing with a league that wants to control all transfers (in and out) and is run by a man who believes that the league SHOULD be in full control.

It's bad enough that the MLS fucked us over by pointing us in the direction of Mo Johnston - effectively sinking our ship before it had a chance to sail. Heck, they've fucked us over many other times (remember the Honduras game and the 9 missing players - when Garber refused to move our game). Time for SERIOUS MLS reform. This is not good. Not good at all. In fact, it's shockingly horrible and I wish TFC supporters would stand up and tell Garber to keep his stinking hands off of our club. We have enough trouble with the boneheads running our club.

[ag futbol]

I think this has been pointed out before, but Ives has been wrong in the past on multiple things related to TFC. Notably he said Mariner was going to be the coach and Winter was going to be the assistant. His sources are very much "inside", assuming the same with Molinaro's. What kind of message should we all assume is going to come out of that kind of environment? Unless Mariner and Cochrane like spreading rumors about how they are screw-ups I think this is all very status quo stuff. The media in this city isn't exactly known for a strong sense of independent thinking as it relates to TFC. They are pretty much dogs being led on a leash.

There's just too much surrounding cirumstances that smell like shit for TFC not to have made a hash of this. Regardless, would Melberg really save the day as far as TFC goes? It takes the TFC transfer window from disappointment to luke-warm IMO. Where are the regular roster players we need to make this team better? They certainly aren't guys like Wiedeman and Amarikwa...

[Super]

I think this has been pointed out before, but Ives has been wrong in the past on multiple things related to TFC. Notably he said Mariner was going to be the coach and Winter was going to be the assistant. His sources are very much "inside", assuming the same with Molinaro's. What kind of message should we all assume is going to come out of that kind of environment? Unless Mariner and Cochrane like spreading rumors about how they are screw-ups I think this is all very status quo stuff. The media in this city isn't exactly known for a strong sense of independent thinking as it relates to TFC. They are pretty much dogs being led on a leash.

There's just too much surrounding cirumstances that smell like shit for TFC not to have made a hash of this. Regardless, would Melberg really save the day as far as TFC goes? It takes the TFC transfer window from disappointment to luke-warm IMO. Where are the regular roster players we need to make this team better? They certainly aren't guys like Wiedeman and Amarikwa...

Let's just say that we'd likely have the best CB in the MLS right now if we signed Mellberg. But I certainly can't argue with the fact that TFC FO is seriously incompetent.

[BayernTFC]

Time for SERIOUS MLS reform.
This won't happen as long as Don Garber is commissioner of MLS.




I wish TFC supporters would stand up and tell Garber to keep his stinking hands off of our club.
MLS is the real owner:


Passive investors do not pay any team operating expenses or receive any management fee. They share in the general distribution of profits (and losses) resulting from league operations. Team operators cannot transfer their MLS interests or operational rights without the consent of the Management committee. That consent may be withheld without cause, but the league is required to repurchase the team operator's interest at its fair market value if approval is withheld. Team operators derive whatever rights they may have exclusively from MLS, and the league may terminate these rights if a team operator violates these provisions or fails to act in the best interest of the league.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=YO80DTGw1MEC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=all+mls+player+contracts+need+league+approval&source=bl&ots=Jh3O4HbRc2&sig=qoBrUvhjicS2XYBTB_FVI2sVDko&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GYEiUO7CC47gtQaM-4DYBw&ved=0CFIQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=all mls player contracts need league approval&f=false




TFC is the local franchise that MLSE purchased the rights to operate. A good analogy would be McDonald's franchising:


Think of franchising as paying someone for his or her business strategy, marketing strategy, operations strategy, and the use of his or her name. That's pretty much what franchising is -- you are establishing a relationship with a successful business so you can use its systems and capitalize on its existing brand awareness in order to get a quicker return on your own investment. You are using its proven system and name, and running it by its rules.

Are you still your own boss? In some respects, no. You still have to answer to someone else and follow his or her direction. You don't really own the business; you own the assets you've purchased in order to establish the business.


http://money.howstuffworks.com/franchising1.htm

[Super]

How depressing.

[Beach_Red]

How depressing.

Well, come on, was there really any other way to get people to invest in pro soccer in America?