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denime
07-20-2012, 05:39 AM
Mornin'




TFC TV (http://www.torontofc.ca/video)




Reds on the rebound


(http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/07/19/mls_toronto_fc_colorado_rapids/)Johnson credits Mariner for TFC turnaround (http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/2012/07/19/mls_toronto_fc_ryan_johnson_with_jeff_blair/)


Canada to play T&T in friendly (http://www.torontosun.com/2012/07/19/canada-to-play-tt-in-soccer-friendly)



TFC Related Blogs !!


(http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?29582-TFC-MLS-blogs-thread)


SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshine-girl)

Fort York Redcoat
07-20-2012, 06:38 AM
Friendly warm up in Florida vs T&T is...nice. Tell me what station its on and I'll get excited about it. Otherwise...to the twitterverse!

Technorgasm
07-20-2012, 06:55 AM
http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/smilies/flare.gifhttp://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/smilies/heart.gif PRACTICE DAY !!!! http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/smilies/heart.gifhttp://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/smilies/flare.gif

I got wood. . . .

ManUtd4ever
07-20-2012, 07:02 AM
Johnson credits Mariner for TFC turnaround (http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/2012/07/19/mls_toronto_fc_ryan_johnson_with_jeff_blair/)


:jaw:

Pookie
07-20-2012, 07:23 AM
You know what's funny about that interview is that both the player and host act as if 2011 didn't exist.

Mariner's system IS simpler. They look for forwards first instead of building from the back as we all have discussed. We call it hoofball but forwards first is another way to say it. As Johnson says, if they make a mistake in this system it is higher up the field vs at the back were total football builds from.

The comparison with 2012 is valid. Record is what it is.

I was hoping Blair would challenge Johnson though and ask, if Winter's system was so complicated, why did you have such success with it through the end of 2011? THey had a similar 10 game run of 3-2-5 in MLS play for 14 points and a very stellar CCL run. What changed? Virtually the same roster was able to play that system with results. What happened between October and March that made you look so ridiculous in MLS play?

scooter
07-20-2012, 08:02 AM
mornin d

Gazza
07-20-2012, 08:27 AM
You know what's funny about that interview is that both the player and host act as if 2011 didn't exist.

Mariner's system IS simpler. They look for forwards first instead of building from the back as we all have discussed. We call it hoofball but forwards first is another way to say it. As Johnson says, if they make a mistake in this system it is higher up the field vs at the back were total football builds from.

The comparison with 2012 is valid. Record is what it is.

I was hoping Blair would challenge Johnson though and ask, if Winter's system was so complicated, why did you have such success with it through the end of 2011? THey had a similar 10 game run of 3-2-5 in MLS play for 14 points and a very stellar CCL run. What changed? Virtually the same roster was able to play that system with results. What happened between October and March that made you look so ridiculous in MLS play?

For a guy who started the interview stating that he watches A LOT of TFC games, i was very disappointed with his questioning. I expected more from Blair seeing as how most of the time he seems like a cynical knob head.

Beach_Red
07-20-2012, 08:35 AM
You know what's funny about that interview is that both the player and host act as if 2011 didn't exist.

Mariner's system IS simpler. They look for forwards first instead of building from the back as we all have discussed. We call it hoofball but forwards first is another way to say it. As Johnson says, if they make a mistake in this system it is higher up the field vs at the back were total football builds from.

The comparison with 2012 is valid. Record is what it is.

I was hoping Blair would challenge Johnson though and ask, if Winter's system was so complicated, why did you have such success with it through the end of 2011? THey had a similar 10 game run of 3-2-5 in MLS play for 14 points and a very stellar CCL run. What changed? Virtually the same roster was able to play that system with results. What happened between October and March that made you look so ridiculous in MLS play?

Maybe the competition. It looked like once MLS teams saw what TFC was doing they were able to adjust to it. Like the way roookie goalies and starting pitchers sometimes have success their first time through the schedule and then fade once teams get to know them.

Ultra & Proud
07-20-2012, 08:56 AM
I was hoping Blair would challenge Johnson though and ask, if Winter's system was so complicated, why did you have such success with it through the end of 2011? THey had a similar 10 game run of 3-2-5 in MLS play for 14 points and a very stellar CCL run. What changed? Virtually the same roster was able to play that system with results. What happened between October and March that made you look so ridiculous in MLS play? The good run late last year was probably because we got 2 DPs who helped things run and we also had 20+ matches and a massive turnover to finally play sort of the way Winter intended. Then it took one off season of watching tapes for the rest of the league to find out how easy it is to stuff the middle and load the box thus negating all of our attacking options and to press us high to force turnovers.

Game of sports = Team has game plan, opponents adapt, Team adapts to counteract what the opponents have done and so on. We never did that whole counteract thing because Winter's system (in his mind) was too good to be figured out and dismantled by some lowly team in a league like MLS. For him it was only about 'quality of the players'. Whereas it was clearly a problem of 'quality of the coaching'.

jabbronies
07-20-2012, 09:04 AM
Maybe the competition. It looked like once MLS teams saw what TFC was doing they were able to adjust to it. Like the way roookie goalies and starting pitchers sometimes have success their first time through the schedule and then fade once teams get to know them.

This is it here.
For me, this was final proof that MLS is a league in its own category and has to be treated as such. It's not Mexican league, it's not Spanish league, europe league. Things that may work in those leagues, do not work here. There is a different balance of skill, grit and tactics that needs to be executed in order to be successful in MLS. I think we had the right balance to be successful elsewhere, just not in the MLS.

Winter system was too soft and "light footed". MLS teams just pushed us around when they got close enough.
Mariners system is very "feet planted on the ground" and "bulldozer" which is what MLS is.

I think to be a top team though, we need more of that "light footed" flare in addition to the grit.

Derko
07-20-2012, 09:33 AM
This is it here.
For me, this was final proof that MLS is a league in its own category and has to be treated as such. It's not Mexican league, it's not Spanish league, europe league. Things that may work in those leagues, do not work here. There is a different balance of skill, grit and tactics that needs to be executed in order to be successful in MLS. I think we had the right balance to be successful elsewhere, just not in the MLS.

Winter system was too soft and "light footed". MLS teams just pushed us around when they got close enough.
Mariners system is very "feet planted on the ground" and "bulldozer" which is what MLS is.

I think to be a top team though, we need more of that "light footed" flare in addition to the grit.

I agree 100%, I have been saying to folks in the stands around me, in particular newbies, that you cannot compare MLS (and TFC for that matter) to other Leagues/Teams around the world, It has it's own identity and it's own style (for lack of better words). I Yes agreed lower quality than some, but on par with others.

reggie
07-20-2012, 09:37 AM
For a guy who started the interview stating that he watches A LOT of TFC games, i was very disappointed with his questioning. I expected more from Blair seeing as how most of the time he seems like a cynical knob head.

i like blair,he does know a bit about futbol,i was shocked that they stopped talking bluejays for 5 min.

ManUtd4ever
07-20-2012, 09:38 AM
The good run late last year was probably because we got 2 DPs who helped things run and we also had 20+ matches and a massive turnover to finally play sort of the way Winter intended. Then it took one off season of watching tapes for the rest of the league to find out how easy it is to stuff the middle and load the box thus negating all of our attacking options and to press us high to force turnovers.

Game of sports = Team has game plan, opponents adapt, Team adapts to counteract what the opponents have done and so on. We never did that whole counteract thing because Winter's system (in his mind) was too good to be figured out and dismantled by some lowly team in a league like MLS. For him it was only about 'quality of the players'. Whereas it was clearly a problem of 'quality of the coaching'.

Well said.

Mariner's conventional approach may not be akin to a fine work of art, but it is certainly more condusive to success in this league in it's current state.

Pookie
07-20-2012, 09:50 AM
Maybe the competition. It looked like once MLS teams saw what TFC was doing they were able to adjust to it. Like the way roookie goalies and starting pitchers sometimes have success their first time through the schedule and then fade once teams get to know them.

If that were true though, you would have expected somewhat of the opposite picture.

A good start in 2011 and then as teams adapt a poor finish. One would expect that the 2nd time around (late 2011) for all teams would have resulted in poor results since they had time to adapt.

But TFC did better against the same teams the 2nd time around, after they had video of the system. It also doesn't explain why SKC, with a similar system and Philadlpehia lately are very hard to play against.For me, the one variable is the players. Better players came on in late 2011 and better players were hurt in early 2012.

To say that Winter's system was too complex just doesn't explain why they were able to win with it and the same players found it too hard just a few months later? Did they lose some IQ points over the break?

Phil
07-20-2012, 09:50 AM
Maybe the competition. It looked like once MLS teams saw what TFC was doing they were able to adjust to it. Like the way roookie goalies and starting pitchers sometimes have success their first time through the schedule and then fade once teams get to know them.

I think this is very close to the mark. MLS teams saw what we were doing and figured it out. I think the Dallas game that we won was a team that didn't do their homework on us, LA got caught this year too. Most CCL teams thought we had turf, so it shows how up to date thier scouting was.

However Winter did lack originality and flexibility. MLS teams watch each other and are very aware of the tactical side of things. When we pound out the same formation and strategy every game, they are going to respond. They are going to do their best to cover our dangerous players and when we open ourselves to counters, they will exploit.

The things I like under Mariner is we seem to be working on formation variety & adaptability. I hope this changes as our talent level gets better. But we are working on the weak spots, defense is getting a bit better, mistakes are not happening as much. There were periods in Wednesdays game where we were passing the ball for fun, I havent seen that in a long while.

If we can get a CB that can really do the job and teach Henry to become the CB Canada will neeed, then its an imporant aquisition. Lets hope this happens soon.

ManUtd4ever
07-20-2012, 09:57 AM
If that were true though, you would have expected somewhat of the opposite picture.

A good start in 2011 and then as teams adapt a poor finish.

But TFC did better against the same teams the 2nd time around, after they had video of the system. It also doesn't explain why SKC, with a similar system and Philadlpehia lately are very hard to play against. One would expect that the 2nd time around (late 2011) for all teams would have resulted in poor results since they had time to adapt.

For me, the one variable is the players. Better players came on in late 2011 and better players were hurt in early 2012. To say that Winter's system was too complex just doesn't explain why they were able to win with it and the same players found it too hard just a few months later?

No, actually I think Beach is bang on. Even after the roster was overhauled last season, TFC had slightly better results in league play, but the team still only won 3 games after the transfer window.

As for the beginning of this season, the results were self explanatory.

starter
07-20-2012, 10:06 AM
If that were true though, you would have expected somewhat of the opposite picture.

A good start in 2011 and then as teams adapt a poor finish. One would expect that the 2nd time around (late 2011) for all teams would have resulted in poor results since they had time to adapt.

But TFC did better against the same teams the 2nd time around, after they had video of the system. It also doesn't explain why SKC, with a similar system and Philadlpehia lately are very hard to play against.For me, the one variable is the players. Better players came on in late 2011 and better players were hurt in early 2012.

To say that Winter's system was too complex just doesn't explain why they were able to win with it and the same players found it too hard just a few months later? Did they lose some IQ points over the break?

I believe the poor form in MLS to start 2012 was due to the dramatic loss to the SL in CCL, the tournament TFC were really invested into. AW said then that he feared the team would have problems in league play following that loss. Then Frings went down, and the wheels came off, while defensive help never materialized.

Pookie
07-20-2012, 10:18 AM
No, actually I think Beach is bang on. Even after the roster was overhauled last season, TFC had slightly better results in league play, but the team still only won 3 games after the transfer window.

.

It's funny. The team actually had 14 points in 10 MLS games to close out the season. 2 points less than Mariner's 10 game stretch. Yet, this is classed as "slightly better results in league play" ?

You really aren't saying Mariner's results are just "slightly better" by comparison are you? Of course not.

If MLS can adapt to TFC so quickly... but not to SKC... that is perplexing. However, if they are adaptable, I guess we are in for an interesting stretch of the next 10 aren't we? Anyways, what other teams do is one thing.

However, RJ's comments were about the "COMPLEXITY" of Winter's system and how that didn't contribute to 2012 results. The COMPLEXITY of the system remained consistent. They were able to play it and have "slightly better" results in league play ;). Somehow, it became too COMPLEX over the break and they couldn't play it, supposedly. I would have loved for Blair to have asked what happened?

If a kid masters riding a bike in the summer, then takes a break, then starts again the next summer. Baring some major developmental changes in the kid like growing 4 feet, he's likely to be able to ride that bike again. The COMPLEXITY of the task stays the same.

ManUtd4ever
07-20-2012, 10:25 AM
It's funny. The team actually had 14 points in 10 MLS games to close out the season. 2 points less than Mariner's 10 game stretch. Yet, this is classed as "slightly better results in league play" ?

You really aren't saying Mariner's results are just "slightly better" by comparison are you? Of course not.

If MLS can adapt to TFC so quickly... but not to SKC... that is perplexing. However, if they are adaptable, I guess we are in for an interesting stretch of the next 10 aren't we? Anyways, what other teams do is one thing.

However, RJ's comments were about the "COMPLEXITY" of Winter's system and how that didn't contribute to 2012 results. The COMPLEXITY of the system remained consistent. They were able to play it and have "slightly better" results in league play ;). Somehow, it became too COMPLEX over the break and they couldn't play it, supposedly. I would have loved for Blair to have asked what happened?

If a kid masters riding a bike in the summer, then takes a break, then starts again the next summer. Baring some major developmental changes in the kid like growing 4 feet, he's likely to be able to ride that bike again. The COMPLEXITY of the task stays the same.

Once again, you select a specific sample size to try and illustrate your point. I was referring to the accuracy of Beach's observation, but if you want to compare the results based on the total body of work of both managers...

Winter: 7W-22L-15D

Mariner: 4W-2L-4D

It doesn't take a mathematical genius to discern the results.

Beach_Red
07-20-2012, 10:35 AM
It's funny. The team actually had 14 points in 10 MLS games to close out the season. 2 points less than Mariner's 10 game stretch. Yet, this is classed as "slightly better results in league play" ?

You really aren't saying Mariner's results are just "slightly better" by comparison are you? Of course not.

If MLS can adapt to TFC so quickly... but not to SKC... that is perplexing. However, if they are adaptable, I guess we are in for an interesting stretch of the next 10 aren't we? Anyways, what other teams do is one thing.

However, RJ's comments were about the "COMPLEXITY" of Winter's system and how that didn't contribute to 2012 results. The COMPLEXITY of the system remained consistent. They were able to play it and have "slightly better" results in league play ;). Somehow, it became too COMPLEX over the break and they couldn't play it, supposedly. I would have loved for Blair to have asked what happened?

If a kid masters riding a bike in the summer, then takes a break, then starts again the next summer. Baring some major developmental changes in the kid like growing 4 feet, he's likely to be able to ride that bike again. The COMPLEXITY of the task stays the same.

Yeah, but there's another kid running beside him trying to knock him off the bike. When he first gets going it's tough but once the other kid realizes he can't ride very fast it gets easier.. ;).

As for the SKC, you'd have to break down each game and see how it went. But look, what we saw at the beginning of this season was TFC pushed back into their own end and giving up early goals that set the stage for the rest of the game. It really looked like a game plan put in place to counter TFC's attempt to build from the back, especially once teams saw that TFC wasn't going to change that strategy no matter how often they gave up early goals.

ManUtd4ever
07-20-2012, 10:39 AM
Better yet, let's compare the results of both managers in MLS based on their total body of work after the summer transfer window last season, so that we can compare the results with a similar roster at their disposal...

Winter: 4W 13L 10D

Mariner: 4W 2L 4D

That's the most objective comparison possible, and the results are still not even close.

Pookie
07-20-2012, 11:03 AM
Better yet, let's compare the results of both managers in MLS based on their total body of work after the summer transfer window last season, so that we can compare the results with a similar roster at their disposal...

Winter: 4W 13L 10D

Mariner: 4W 2L 4D

That's the most objective comparison possible, and the results are still not even close.

Um yeah, they aren't even close. Not sure who you are arguing with on that one.

However the question, as raised by RJ is the statement that the system was too COMPLEX. Not that other teams adapted. It was too hard.

If you just look at 2012, you say, ok. Makes sense. Struggled. Now dumbed it down. Now doing ok. Nice little explanation, puzzle solved, nothing to see here.

However, in learning that the end of 2011 was good but start of 2012 was horrible one might then want to partition the results and when looking at the downturn in 2012, ask what happened?

It's like me as a sales manager seeing a Rep struggle early, invest in learning the product and sales skills and doing well to end the year. They then tank to start the year. If they say to me that the product is too complex, I'm asking for more explanation because it wasn't too complex at the end of the year for them.

Any of you buying that? Or are you just happy that the sales are back to end of 2011 levels now that you have dumbed down the job? How do I know as a manager that something else wasn't to blame for this? I have to provide a forecast for the end of the year. Do I simply take 16 points x 2 as my projection without understanding what caused the downturn? What will my 2013 projections say?

Beach_Red
07-20-2012, 11:46 AM
It's like me as a sales manager seeing a Rep struggle early, invest in learning the product and sales skills and doing well to end the year. They then tank to start the year. If they say to me that the product is too complex, I'm asking for more explanation because it wasn't too complex at the end of the year for them.

Any of you buying that? Or are you just happy that the sales are back to end of 2011 levels now that you have dumbed down the job? How do I know as a manager that something else wasn't to blame for this? I have to provide a forecast for the end of the year. Do I simply take 16 points x 2 as my projection without understanding what caused the downturn? What will my 2013 projections say?

But you, as a sales manager, must also keep an eye on the competition and how they're adjusting to whatever tactics you're using (lowering the price, adding more options, whatever you've done to take business away from them to begin with). It's not the product that's the issue, it's the sales tactics. Your sales rep still understand the product fine, it's the complicated financing and discount scheme that they don't really understand.

You have to constantly adjust for your competition to stay ahead, you can't just do the same thing every day and expect your competition to stay behind you - unless you're RIM, I guess....

ensco
07-20-2012, 11:48 AM
Statistical analysis is not required. Ten games is enough to say this: anybody can see with their own eyes that the team under Mariner is playing better than it ever did under Winter.

mdc 77
07-20-2012, 11:59 AM
Statistical analysis is not required. Ten games is enough to say this: anybody can see with their own eyes that the team under Mariner is playing better than it ever did under Winter.

No doubt about it. I don't know why people keep discussing this topic, the previous guy was a massive failure...wish he wasn't and he was likeable (I almost wish he somehow stayed with the academy) but fact is he may have been one of the worst MLS managers ever.

Pookie
07-20-2012, 12:13 PM
But you, as a sales manager, must also keep an eye on the competition and how they're adjusting to whatever tactics you're using (lowering the price, adding more options, whatever you've done to take business away from them to begin with). It's not the product that's the issue, it's the sales tactics. Your sales rep still understand the product fine, it's the complicated financing and discount scheme that they don't really understand.

You have to constantly adjust for your competition to stay ahead, you can't just do the same thing every day and expect your competition to stay behind you - unless you're RIM, I guess....

I like that RIM reference :)

In any event, all that needs to be said has been said.

Mariner's next 10 includes a more difficult stretch of competition and CCL. His start is great. No better than Preki or Carver or Winter (end of 2011) but neither of those 3 were able to build on the success they oversaw. I'm hoping Mariner can do what they couldn't.

And if he can, I'll buy the first round of beers at the playoff game. Assuming I can afford MLSE's "Loyalty Playoff Ticket Pricing" ;)

ensco
07-20-2012, 12:27 PM
And if he can, I'll buy the first round of beers at the playoff game. Assuming I can afford MLSE's "Loyalty Playoff Ticket Pricing" ;)

If you're wrong, you're still safe. We have 14 games to go, even if Mariner wins 8 of them, we still probably won't get in.
http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/TorontoFC.html

denime
07-20-2012, 12:44 PM
Statistical analysis is not required. Ten games is enough to say this: anybody can see with their own eyes that the team under Mariner is playing better than it ever did under Winter.

I would say they are getting better results,playing better I'm not sure.
Most of the games were no watchable at all,but we got the results and at the end that's what counts,win is a win ugly or not.

ensco
07-20-2012, 12:53 PM
Most of the games were no watchable at all,but we got the results and at the end that's what counts,win is a win ugly or not.

Seriously, what a total crock. What games were not watchable? The games against New England and at Houston, where we lost the two goal leads? The New York game, where we almost pulled out the win at the end? The 3-0 at Montreal? The Vancouver game? The Colorado game (where I think we played one of the most attractive games we have ever played in our history)?

The KC and Philly road losses were unwatchable. That's it. 2 out of 10.

pekduck
07-20-2012, 12:57 PM
Seriously, what a total crock. What games were not watchable? The games against New England and at Houston, where we lost the two goal leads? The New York game, where we almost pulled out the win at the end? The 3-0 at Montreal? The Vancouver game? The Colorado game (where I think we played one of the most attractive games we have ever played in our history)?

The KC and Philly road losses were unwatchable. That's it. 2 out of 10.


depending on the frame of reference.. right after euro.. none of the games we played were watchable.. .honestly...

excitement and result wise, we've been doing good... style wise.. i had to get out of full screen mode, and play it on the side and doing work to keep it going...

mdc 77
07-20-2012, 01:08 PM
Gotta agree with Ensco here...We have played some seriously entertaining games lately. Not always good, but that Colorado match was easily one of the best in our history.

to add...I am curious, does anyone think we played more attractive football under Winter?

ensco
07-20-2012, 01:22 PM
depending on the frame of reference.. right after euro.. none of the games we played were watchable.. .honestly...

excitement and result wise, we've been doing good... style wise.. i had to get out of full screen mode, and play it on the side and doing work to keep it going...

Sorry but that's a "you" problem, not an "it" problem. There have been 2 or 3 clunkers (the Dallas game was a yawn, too) but that's it. The rest have been pretty good, or even great.

starter
07-20-2012, 01:25 PM
Gotta agree with Ensco here...We have played some seriously entertaining games lately. Not always good, but that Colorado match was easily one of the best in our history.

to add...I am curious, does anyone think we played more attractive football under Winter?

I think we tried to play more academic style under AW, which had a promise to be absolutely beautiful, but missed important pieces to compete in this league. I liked the way we tried to spread the game wide.
With PM we play more pragmatically, not aiming to be trend-setters, just trying to outwork the competition.
Different people like different aspects of the game, I suppose.

pekduck
07-20-2012, 01:27 PM
Sorry but that's a "you" problem, not an "it" problem. There have been 2 or 3 clunkers (the Dallas game was a yawn, too) but that's it. The rest have been pretty good, or even great.

exactly!

so that's why i don't get your reply to pookie, since that's his frame of reference. everyone has their own expectations, depending on their frame of reference. :)

the "it" here has no problem if "it" has "its" expection set and they are in alignment

i digress....

mdc 77
07-20-2012, 01:59 PM
I think we tried to play more academic style under AW, which had a promise to be absolutely beautiful, but missed important pieces to compete in this league. I liked the way we tried to spread the game wide.
With PM we play more pragmatically, not aiming to be trend-setters, just trying to outwork the competition.
Different people like different aspects of the game, I suppose.

I understand and know all that, my question was a bit of sarcasm. I liked the idea Winter had...would love to watch my club play that brand of footy well but they didn't even come close. I'd rank the 44 matches under Winter as some of the most un-watchable football we have seen in 5 years. Forget the concept, what we actually saw was horrendous.

starter
07-20-2012, 02:11 PM
I understand and know all that, my question was a bit of sarcasm. I liked the idea Winter had...would love to watch my club play that brand of footy well but they didn't even come close. I'd rank the 44 matches under Winter as some of the most un-watchable football we have seen in 5 years. Forget the concept, what we actually saw was horrendous.

Next time you could use word Bazinga to indicate sarcasm, and as I said different people enjoy different aspects of the game.

Ultra & Proud
07-20-2012, 02:18 PM
If MLS can adapt to TFC so quickly... but not to SKC... that is perplexing. However, if they are adaptable, I guess we are in for an interesting stretch of the next 10 aren't we? Anyways, what other teams do is one thing.
Have you watched a SKC game that didn't involve us? There almost is no game plan. It's all spreading the field and pressing non-stop in an effort to force errors that lead to their counter. It is an ugly spectacle football-wise. I appreciate the athleticism required to push so hard and so long but it is a long way from what most people on these boards would equate to beautiful football. But it works so that's that. We'll see how it plays out for them physically for 34+ matches when the playoffs come around.

And the thing with our old system wasn't that it was too complex for our players to grasp but rather too simple for the rest of the league to figure out (and neutralize/take advantage of). Best of all, after they did, we still did the exact same things. Astounding.

Kaz
07-20-2012, 02:20 PM
Winter seems to have taken ever ounce of fun out of the game for the players he turned road trips into military service. Add in a few losses, the losses of Frings the only person holding the team together, and Koevs form, and we lose.

At the end of last year the team didn't suddenly get the system, Two players were brought in to help on the field. .. Those two players are the reason we had a half decent end. We were basically playing 5-2-3

I believe by what the boys have said, is that Winter was over complicating things and wanted the end result always without a learning curve.

Kansas City has played a creative 4-3-3 were play can come from more then one area. With Winter play game from the same area's ever time... play was built up from the back, from the two CBs. into a Mid Field to Frings or JDG. Morgan and/or Ecks would start a run, a pass would move to them or a AM. and then it was moved to the wings and crossed in. For Koevs if lucky or for the winger if it was long.

Other MLS teams just looked at us and pushed forward clogged up the midfield and then no one new what to do. Ball would eventually be intercepted and we'd be on a counter, with a high line.

After July 2011 Frings and Koev gave enough skill to make it work in a way it hadn't up to that point, and we started to do well...

In CCL we were playing teams that a less heavy handed style, and didn't do their homework. So we had a little more space, and the counters started a little further back. With LA we had the same thing, Even in Santos we were doing well till the Heat and Altitude took it's tool around minute 60.

This season we lost in Santos, we lost Frings at the beginning and MLS teams knew how to deal and no decent CB was brought in, and instead of having a good length preseason and trialing 5 or 6 CBs to find who fit the roll, we had a very minor preseason. This shows Winter really didn't understand what was happening.

Under Winter, we may have ended up in the same score line over the last 10 games as Mariner did, with Frings and Koev in the line up. The issue isn't that Mariner has made the boys play better, it's that he's done two things, he's put the fun back in to some extent, and he has said we can't rely on Frings and Koev for wins. And he's set up a system and worked with the players so they can adapt on their own.

It's no long Frings, Koev and TFC on the field. Its TFC. That is the change.

Call it Hoof ball, call it what ever you want, it helps build the confidence of the boys, and as I've said Mariner may move back into a 4-3-3 later one... but right now he needs the boys to play well. Right now to get a play of stop we can not lose more then 1 game in the next 14. It's not really workable. but we can salvage as much of the system as possible.

And once again we hear from RJ that Mariner is successfully motivating the players, adapting to the situation, he is getting the players to play, and confidence is coming... and that is important, and it's something Winter either couldn't or wouldn't do.

CoachGT
07-20-2012, 02:23 PM
And the thing with our old system wasn't that it was too complex for our players to grasp but rather too simple for the rest of the league to figure out (and neutralize/take advantage of). Best of all, after they did, we still did the exact same things. Astounding.

I'd suspect having a back line with the experience levels that we have factored mightily into how easily other teams figured us out. The lack of an experienced, controlling CB has meant that our players have been "schooled" on their positions. Any mistake has often led to the back of the net. We were slightly better off last year when Frings was patrolling the back line. Moving Frings out of that area (and his subsequent injury) has probably significantly influenced our lack of success this year, moreso that any adaptation by opponents.

ensco
07-20-2012, 02:32 PM
exactly!

so that's why i don't get your reply to pookie, since that's his frame of reference. everyone has their own expectations, depending on their frame of reference. :)

the "it" here has no problem if "it" has "its" expection set and they are in alignment

i digress....

No my reply was to denime, who claimed that since Mariner came in "most of our games were unwatchable".

pekduck
07-20-2012, 02:42 PM
No my reply was to denime, who claimed that since Mariner came in "most of our games were unwatchable".

I stand corrected. My apologies.

ag futbol
07-20-2012, 03:29 PM
On whole, I never found Aron Winter's team to be as entertaining and appealing as it was supposed to be in theory... and not just because the results were poor.

I thought the execution of the game plan was pretty bad and things never opened up and became as dynamic as we had all dreamed. I'll remember the Seattle game at the start of the year and the RSL away as two notable performance (although we won neither game). I found much of the "creativity" was through individual play and not as a unit as I had hoped.

I think last time out vs. Colorado I saw more smart team play than i ever did under AW. That's not to say we didn't just hoof the ball forward blindly at times, but I thought that when we did keep the ball we did a good job of creating some chances. The balls that Silva and Morgan played through to Frings were better than anything I ever saw under Winter IMO.

Pookie
07-20-2012, 04:46 PM
:jaw:


Just for fun:

“There’s no hiding from the fact that (our) early Champions Leagues games maybe had an effect on some of our league performances,” Terry Dunfield said.

FreekAce
07-20-2012, 05:13 PM
Winter seems to have taken ever ounce of fun out of the game for the players he turned road trips into military service.

but thats what he was hired for. anyone that knows where winter comes from understands that. this club wanted what they do at Ajax? they got it.
Amsterdam did not produce some of the best players messing about. its all business. from the kids up. and clearly not what works here.

Wull
07-20-2012, 07:19 PM
TFC confirmed on twitter we just signed Hassli for a first rounder and an international slot

pekduck
07-20-2012, 07:30 PM
Where's Carts? He must be going crazy with this news and getting :drinking:like tomorrow's end of the world :D

moralis
07-20-2012, 07:39 PM
After Kovermans injury: Mariner talks about having 2 DPS:

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/07/17/paul-mariner-july-17-2012.

Listen to Mariner: Starts at 4:20 to 4:40.

Kaz
07-21-2012, 09:26 AM
but thats what he was hired for. anyone that knows where winter comes from understands that. this club wanted what they do at Ajax? they got it.
Amsterdam did not produce some of the best players messing about. its all business. from the kids up. and clearly not what works here.

Outside of Klinnsman I doubt anyone in the FO involved in the hiring process knows that... you'd be lucky if they can identify a Football from a Volleyball.

And I'm not sure if the way Winter worked here is truely the way it worked at Ajax... because De Klerk is still here, Winter isn't.