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denime
07-15-2012, 12:30 PM
This thread is dedicated for discussion about

Winter's POSSESSION and
Mariner's hybrid of DIRECT/COUNTER ATTACKING/PARK THE BUS STYLE.

Please stay civil,do not argue the person, argue the opinion


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denime
07-15-2012, 12:30 PM
Winter tried to implement RECEIVE-PASS-MOVE system,where players movement off the ball would create extra space,and coming into that empty space,this wasn't Spanish tika,taka where ball is circulating and passed around rather than positional interchange of players.

"Winters" system requires players to be comfortable in multiple positions and physical fitness must be top notch,this is where Winter failed ,while he was trying to teach lumberjacks (that Mariner ,Cockrane signed) how to receive-pass and move,their physical conditioning needed for high pressure game was nowhere to be found and we would get scored against at the end of the games.


Mariner does not play Preki's anti football with 10 players behind the ball grinding results ,he encouraging his players to play loooong pass "'when under pressure"(recorded on TFC TV players interviews),not realizing with every boot pressure is rising because opponent has the ball again.
While Mariners system looks more like counter attacking,it is not,in counter attacking football our team should try to overtake the opposition by quick and intelligent movement and fast passes,something that we definitely don't do so often to call it counter attacking football.

We are now stuck between counter attacking/direct football,that most of the time looks like park the bus ,and boot it without the intention to pass it to the feet of the receiving player.

Richard
07-15-2012, 12:51 PM
I refuse to believe we can not aquire players to play in the RECEIVE-PASS-MOVE system, many team have players who are capable of this higher IQ system. There in lies the problem with TFC, player acquisition has been abysmal since day 1. Many team play a hybrid(Salary restrictions) and have some sort of pragmatic theme, not finding this happy medium is down to not having the right players.

QSIM
07-15-2012, 01:27 PM
I refuse to believe we can not aquire players to play in the RECEIVE-PASS-MOVE system, many team have players who are capable of this higher IQ system. There in lies the problem with TFC, player acquisition has been abysmal since day 1. Many team play a hybrid(Salary restrictions) and have some sort of pragmatic theme, not finding this happy medium is down to not having the right players.

We have acquired certain quality players (though very few) that would fit more of a passing system perfectly, however for some reason, we always let them go. Prime example: Sam Cronin. He is one player I really wish we had back, perhaps more than anyone.

[NBF]
07-15-2012, 01:36 PM
You have to have scouts and coaches that can acquire players to fit a system and TFC is trying to build something without the appropriate people to implement it. TFC can dream of playing in a 4-3-3, but with the coaches on the team right now they might be better off trying to play a defensive 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/be/Flag_of_England.svg/22px-Flag_of_England.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) Paul Mariner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Mariner) - Head Coach and Director of Soccer Operations(Striker)




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/Flag_of_Canada.svg/22px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) Jim Brennan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Brennan) - First Assistant Coach(Defender/Midfielder)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/Flag_of_Canada.svg/22px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) Jason Bent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Bent) - Assistant Coach(Defender)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Flag_of_Scotland.svg/22px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland) Stewart Kerr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_Kerr) - Goalkeeping Coach(Goalkeeper)

RedsYNWA
07-15-2012, 01:54 PM
I have to chime in....The Spanish style is just as FARKING boring as the Greek style, I say keep the opponents guessing and adapt to your opponent, that Winter never did, the jury is still our on Mariner, but the players seem to have taken to him and that Is what matters most

Pookie
07-15-2012, 04:02 PM
We have acquired certain quality players (though very few) that would fit more of a passing system perfectly, however for some reason, we always let them go. Prime example: Sam Cronin. He is one player I really wish we had back, perhaps more than anyone.

It is interesting to think of the players that have been let go and under which Coach.

Notables under Preki:

OUT - Guevara, Vitti, Cronin, Robinson, Wynne, Serioux,
IN - Gargan, Peterson, Harden, LaBrocca, Cann, Santos, Mista

Notables under Winter (2011-12)

OUT - basically the whole team including all of Preki's guys + DeRo, Barrett, Attakora, Gordon
IN - Stevanovic, Frings, Koevermans, Plata, Morgan, Johnson, Soolsma, Avila

Notables under Mariner

OUT - Plata, Soolsma, de Guzman
IN - to be determined

Stands to reason that each coach will fill his roster with his preferred style of player

OgtheDim
07-15-2012, 04:10 PM
NE fans seem to be happy not playing Nicol/Mariner style.

Pookie
07-15-2012, 04:19 PM
The one thing that concerns me most about our lack of emphasis on possession is the amount of ball chasing that results.

You'll have to forgive this analogy but our games since the coaching change have resembled that Chelsea vs Bayern Munich UEFA final. I say this with a proud blue flag and a Lampard kit hanging in my closet, Chelsea stole that one. That NE-TFC game last night reminded me of that. Corner after corner. Cross after cross. A terrific save. Ball goes out, ball comes back. The odd counter attack but finger nails bitten to the bone and the thought that luck was on our side. The losing team more deserving of the win.

I'll bet if those two exact teams replayed that game 10 times, Bayern Munich wins that 9 of 10 times. The odds are simply stacked against the team that doesn't hold the ball and gets desperately outshot. I'm not sure when or if Mariner will ever tweak that but it has to be a priority. On a one off basis, it can work but over the long haul the odds catch up to you.

denime
07-15-2012, 11:03 PM
;1512102']You have to have scouts and coaches that can acquire players to fit a system and TFC is trying to build something without the appropriate people to implement it. TFC can dream of playing in a 4-3-3, but with the coaches on the team right now they might be better off trying to play a defensive 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/be/Flag_of_England.svg/22px-Flag_of_England.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) Paul Mariner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Mariner) - Head Coach and Director of Soccer Operations(Striker)




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/Flag_of_Canada.svg/22px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) Jim Brennan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Brennan) - First Assistant Coach(Defender/Midfielder)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/Flag_of_Canada.svg/22px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) Jason Bent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Bent) - Assistant Coach(Defender)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Flag_of_Scotland.svg/22px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland) Stewart Kerr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_Kerr) - Goalkeeping Coach(Goalkeeper)



To play a defensive 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 or anti football,something Preki was playing can not help it long term,I would really hate to see defensive hoof-ball and would definitely make my decision of not renewing ST much easier.

Huyton
07-15-2012, 11:20 PM
New England attendance in 2007 and 2008 was around 17,000. 2011 it was 13,000 and this year they're down another 5% below that.

Maybe the New England fans that are still going are happy, but there's fewer of them.

Abou Sky
07-16-2012, 07:21 AM
My $.02, I prefer winning with 40% possession over losing with 60%

It is 'kids football' but with players we have it seems to work.

We still need better quality defense to really do it right but you work with what you have.

Huyton
07-16-2012, 07:36 AM
Interesting read at http://www.soccerstatistically.com/blog/2011/7/27/does-more-possessionmore-wins-in-the-mls.html . It's from July last year.

Here's some of what he has to say:

In the past couple of blog posts I've looked at two common statistics and shown that they are not as meaningful as most people believe. shots on goal (http://redpatchboys.ca/2011/07/do-shots-on-goal-matter.html) do not predict success very well, and assists (http://redpatchboys.ca/2011/07/why-we-shouldnt-put-much-value-in.html) favor players on better clubs. In keeping with this theme of misleading statistics in football, I decided to look at possession data. The commonly held notion is that the team that has the ball more (has a possession percent over 50) is more likely to win. This makes sense. A team with the ball more is more likely to score and less likely to concede. But does the data back it up? Does having more possession than your opponent mean you are more likely to win the game? I looked at the possession data from the MLS season so far. What I found goes completely against what most people would think. So far this season in the MLS, the average possession percentage for teams that have won the game is 48.5%. Teams that win actually posses the ball less. This means the average possession percentage for losing teams is 51.5%.

To get even more specific, I broke down the possession data further. Winning home teams average 50.9% possession, and winning away teams average 43.4% possession. On the other side, losing home teams average 56.6% possession and losing away teams average 49.1% possession. The histograms below illustrate these facts. I found that away teams, on average, have a possession percentage of 47.3%, and home teams have a possession percentage of 52.7%.

So what does all this mean? It seems possession percentage in the MLS does not predict success. Teams that possess the ball more don't win more; they actually lose more. Home teams also have a slight advantage in possession percentage compared with away teams.What about teams that completely dominate possession? You might think that a team that had the ball much more often than their opponent would be much more likely to win. I defined "dominating possession" as having the ball more than 60% of the time. So far this season, teams that have dominated possession have a record of 10 wins, 19 losses, and 18 ties. Domination in possession? Yes. Domination in wins? No.

This analysis calls in to question statements like "the Union had the run of play, they possessed the ball more and deserved the win." It's apparent that in the MLS, possession is not all that important when it comes to winning games. So what's the problem with possession? One reason could be that the best teams do not play possession football. The teams with the most success may play kick and run. Another possibility is that possessing the ball simply doesn't lead to wins. Either way, having the ball more than your opponent does not mean much in the MLS.



The emphasis above is mine.

Pookie
07-16-2012, 07:39 AM
My $.02, I prefer winning with 40% possession over losing with 60%

It is 'kids football' but with players we have it seems to work.

We still need better quality defense to really do it right but you work with what you have.

Key point there is "work with what you have." I look at Philly as an example of a team that is struggling trying to implement 4-3-3 their way. Like we did through last season.

10 games into the season they were just 5 points ahead of us and our pitiful 1-9-0 record. Now, with our progress under this new system, they are still 4 points ahead with 2 games in hand. Why? Something clicked. Over their last 5 games, Philly is 4-1-0 with a +7 differential. They dominated us a few weeks ago. While the future remains to be seen, whose future looks brighter if you had to make a bet now?

I think you are right in that you need to work with what you have but if what you have isn't good enough, you can never compete. We have access to 19 US/Canadian players to make up the rest of our domestic roster. Virtually the same talent pool we have access to. Not putting resources into scouting is a choice. And unfortunately, that roster mis-management and choice of where to allocate resources impacts our style of play.

We will never excel if we don't seek the best players available. If we do, you'll find that the US Soccer Federation is getting behind attacking football and we will have to venture down this learning path once again.

Pookie
07-16-2012, 07:47 AM
Interesting read at http://www.soccerstatistically.com/blog/2011/7/27/does-more-possessionmore-wins-in-the-mls.html . It's from July last year.

Here's some of what he has to say:

In the past couple of blog posts I've looked at two common statistics and shown that they are not as meaningful as most people believe. shots on goal (http://redpatchboys.ca/2011/07/do-shots-on-goal-matter.html) do not predict success very well, and assists (http://redpatchboys.ca/2011/07/why-we-shouldnt-put-much-value-in.html) favor players on better clubs. In keeping with this theme of misleading statistics in football, I decided to look at possession data. The commonly held notion is that the team that has the ball more (has a possession percent over 50) is more likely to win. This makes sense. A team with the ball more is more likely to score and less likely to concede. But does the data back it up? Does having more possession than your opponent mean you are more likely to win the game? I looked at the possession data from the MLS season so far. What I found goes completely against what most people would think. So far this season in the MLS, the average possession percentage for teams that have won the game is 48.5%. Teams that win actually posses the ball less. This means the average possession percentage for losing teams is 51.5%.

To get even more specific, I broke down the possession data further. Winning home teams average 50.9% possession, and winning away teams average 43.4% possession. On the other side, losing home teams average 56.6% possession and losing away teams average 49.1% possession. The histograms below illustrate these facts. I found that away teams, on average, have a possession percentage of 47.3%, and home teams have a possession percentage of 52.7%.

So what does all this mean? It seems possession percentage in the MLS does not predict success. Teams that possess the ball more don't win more; they actually lose more. Home teams also have a slight advantage in possession percentage compared with away teams.What about teams that completely dominate possession? You might think that a team that had the ball much more often than their opponent would be much more likely to win. I defined "dominating possession" as having the ball more than 60% of the time. So far this season, teams that have dominated possession have a record of 10 wins, 19 losses, and 18 ties. Domination in possession? Yes. Domination in wins? No.

This analysis calls in to question statements like "the Union had the run of play, they possessed the ball more and deserved the win." It's apparent that in the MLS, possession is not all that important when it comes to winning games. So what's the problem with possession? One reason could be that the best teams do not play possession football. The teams with the most success may play kick and run. Another possibility is that possessing the ball simply doesn't lead to wins. Either way, having the ball more than your opponent does not mean much in the MLS.



The emphasis above is mine.

I like this.

And I am fond of looking at possession, shots and passing accuracies in my posts. The point you make is very valid. Possession is simply a number that doesn't always equate to what is going on in the context of the game.

If a team scores to take a 2-0 lead with 20 minutes to go, it is most likely that they will simply try to park the bus and protect the lead (though I personally hate that philosophy as it opens the door to a collapse). As a result, possession numbers will swing by upwards of 22% (20/90). In an even 50/50 possession game to that point, the team that is losing will then see the possession numbers swing in their favour and that will be reflected in the final numbers.

What would be very telling is to see what the possession was like at the time that a team scores to take the lead.

Common sense and logic dictate that if you have the bulk of the shots and control the bulk of the play, you are more likely to score. This of course doesn't eliminate the chance that a counter attack based on a single error could lead to a goal.

The one reason that I like using them in reference to TFC is that it was essentially the same roster. Changes in those stats, are very telling of what is being emphasized in training.

What is also telling is that TFC has never held the possession lead since Mariner took over. Not when we are drawing. Not when we are losing. Not when we are winning. Never. It makes comebacks hard. It makes getting that leading goal in a draw hard. It makes protecting a lead hard. It makes getting result in close matches hard and considering 7 of our last 9 were decided by 1 goal or less, it is very relevant to our squad.

Stouffville_RPB
07-16-2012, 07:54 AM
Mariner is getting results right now, no one can deny that. Winter wasn't getting league results.

Mariner's tactics don't look like something that you can count on every week.

Example 1 - More often than not if you decide that you are going to hold the fort for the second half chances are TFC will concede (because they always do). New England would've scored if not for Kocic.
Example 2 - Wednesday TFC scored in the 95th minute off of a set piece. TFC have scored 7 late meaningful goals in their history (which Armen showed us at rednationonline) that's about 1 per season. You can't count on that.
Example 3 & 4 - TFC's late collapses against in Houston and New England at home. Shows that the team still has the same problems defending that they always have had.

Winter, as I said, never got the league results and kudo's to Mariner for doing so thus far. However, looking at when Winter was successful in V-Cup and CL TFC's play looked like something that they could replicate again and again. Obviously they couldn't but it seems that Mariner's success thus far, when broken down has been rather lucky with elements that can't be counted on week in and week out.

I don't have an explanation as to why there was such a difference in league and cup play under Winter, but it seemed more viable that any team (not just TFC) has a better chance at achieve long term success under a Winter type structure than the current one TFC are employing.

Beach_Red
07-16-2012, 08:17 AM
What is also telling is that TFC has never held the possession lead since Mariner took over. Not when we are drawing. Not when we are losing. Not when we are winning. Never. It makes comebacks hard. It makes getting that leading goal in a draw hard. It makes protecting a lead hard. It makes getting result in close matches hard and considering 7 of our last 9 were decided by 1 goal or less, it is very relevant to our squad.

Yes, it's interesting - under one system TFC has never held the possession lead and under the other system over nine games TFC never held the lead (maybe a minute and a half). It's too bad that at this point in time it seems to be a choice between these two.

We all agree where the team wants to be but it's not quite as easy to get there as MLSE expected. Maybe someone realized that if they weren't going to spend the money on scouting they'd have to wait until the type of player they need is easier to get.

Anyway, what we've seen so far is that with essentially the same roster it is possible to win games in league play (as many people expected). So the style of play right now may very well be a transition stage and the next roster moves made will be a better indication of where the team is headed.

Canary10
07-16-2012, 08:19 AM
How many teams win averaging 30% possession?

Pookie
07-16-2012, 08:32 AM
Yes, it's interesting - under one system TFC has never held the possession lead and under the other system over nine games TFC never held the lead (maybe a minute and a half). It's too bad that at this point in time it seems to be a choice between these two.

We all agree where the team wants to be but it's not quite as easy to get there as MLSE expected. Maybe someone realized that if they weren't going to spend the money on scouting they'd have to wait until the type of player they need is easier to get.

Anyway, what we've seen so far is that with essentially the same roster it is possible to win games in league play (as many people expected). So the style of play right now may very well be a transition stage and the next roster moves made will be a better indication of where the team is headed.

... to add, baring any big additions over the next few games, it will be interesting to see how much of this debate re: Mariner v Winter's results were really a function of Danny Koevermans hitting health and form.

Koevermans represented a significant attacking threat. Without him and a defensive minded game plan from Mariner, will teams simply play 3 across the back and load their mid-field to play a constant attacking style against us? Duncan Fletcher has a good piece on this on Sportsnet today.

T-boy
07-16-2012, 09:06 AM
... to add, baring any big additions over the next few games, it will be interesting to see how much of this debate re: Mariner v Winter's results were really a function of Danny Koevermans hitting health and form.

Koevermans represented a significant attacking threat. Without him and a defensive minded game plan from Mariner, will teams simply play 3 across the back and load their mid-field to play a constant attacking style against us? Duncan Fletcher has a good piece on this on Sportsnet today.

but also interestingly, TFC have won the last two games without Koev's actually scoring any goals...and there have been 4 of them! And in fact, Koev's was only involved/assisted in one of those goals. So, out of the 3 games TFC have won under Mariner, Koev's has only scored goals in one of those games.

I would say, then, that its a number of TFC players have have been hitting form under Mariner, not just Koev's. Dunfield, Ecks, Morgan, Avila, and now Silva have all hit a good amount of form with Mariner. One player would be an anomoly, but a bunch of players is a pattern.

I love the tactical conversation, BUT....I think in the case right now, the improvement in results is down to good one-on-one man managemenet from Mariner, rather than any tactical genius. Mariner just knows how to motivate players (whereas Winter appeared to be useless at it!). Mariner seems to be able to get under-achieving players playing with much more confidence. His rhetoric is sometimes a little rediculous ("the best finisher in the modern era") - but it seems to work with players. His big hugs after substitutions just show how he is getting to know the players individually, giving them confidence. A confident team of players can play ANY formation and system and make it work. THAT is the main difference under Mariner compared to Winter. Winter had them playing a nice system with no confidence. Mariner has them playing a simple/basic/direct system with a bunch of confidence!

__wowza
07-16-2012, 09:10 AM
I have to chime in....The Spanish style is just as FARKING boring as the Greek style, I say keep the opponents guessing and adapt to your opponent, that Winter never did, the jury is still our on Mariner, but the players seem to have taken to him and that Is what matters most

i think there's an inherent difference. the greek style is defensive, the spanish style is possessive. i know that you didn't mean they were similar in attack (just both boring), but it's a good analogy to make because when both teams are on the ball it's horrendous to watch.

one of the main areas of interest with this is the spanish attack and their use of shortpasses to break down an defense. you just keep passing and moving until you find a hole. we wouldn't do that because we had no one who know how to. instead, we relied on swinging crosses in. when you have only one serviceable crosser (soolsma).. well.. you get the beginning of our season. i would've been completely fine with the collapsing wingers like SKC play, but that would require our forwards to be able to finish outside of the box, which is something we never really got a chance to see.


while we're on that topic.. JDG seemed to be the only person comfortable with taking a shot from distance. he never hit the back of the net.. or the target for that matter.. but you'd think there'd be more of that, yeah?

Beach_Red
07-16-2012, 09:11 AM
... to add, baring any big additions over the next few games, it will be interesting to see how much of this debate re: Mariner v Winter's results were really a function of Danny Koevermans hitting health and form.

Koevermans represented a significant attacking threat. Without him and a defensive minded game plan from Mariner, will teams simply play 3 across the back and load their mid-field to play a constant attacking style against us? Duncan Fletcher has a good piece on this on Sportsnet today.

Always the danger of relying on a DP, so yeah, it'll be interesting. It'll also be interesting to see how TFC adjusts for it.

v00d00daddy
07-16-2012, 09:12 AM
I agree with the poster who mentioned how unlikely it is that things under mariners system can be repeated.

I thought the silva goal was very nice. Quick touches to space and a chance taken well.

Besides that...the way we've been scoring lately and getting chances will be hard to repeat on a daily basis.

The style we're playin is too dependant on individual performances. I'm afraid to see what is going to happen without koevermans scoring.

The current style will also be very simply figured out.

We shall see.

If we continue with kick and run beyond this season I'll be gone. I just can't bring myself to watch it.

It's everything I hate about football and I resent the style of play mainly because it's the reason I don't get to support my country at the world cup.

T-boy
07-16-2012, 09:15 AM
I agree with the poster who mentioned how unlikely it is that things under mariners system can be repeated.

I thought the silva goal was very nice. Quick touches to space and a chance taken well.

Besides that...the way we've been scoring lately and getting chances will be hard to repeat on a daily basis.

The style we're playin is too dependant on individual performances. I'm afraid to see what is going to happen without koevermans scoring.

The current style will also be very simply figured out.

We shall see.

If we continue with kick and run beyond this season I'll be gone. I just can't bring myself to watch it.

It's everything I hate about football and I resent the style of play mainly because it's the reason I don't get to support my country at the world cup.

Apparently, winning!

Beach_Red
07-16-2012, 09:30 AM
I agree with the poster who mentioned how unlikely it is that things under mariners system can be repeated.

I thought the silva goal was very nice. Quick touches to space and a chance taken well.

Besides that...the way we've been scoring lately and getting chances will be hard to repeat on a daily basis.

The style we're playin is too dependant on individual performances. I'm afraid to see what is going to happen without koevermans scoring.

The current style will also be very simply figured out.

We shall see.

If we continue with kick and run beyond this season I'll be gone. I just can't bring myself to watch it.

It's everything I hate about football and I resent the style of play mainly because it's the reason I don't get to support my country at the world cup.

Generally I agree with you, but in a league that has as part of its roster up to three, "Designated Players" how could it not develop teams based on individual performances?

Sure, some teams are managing their rosters better and moving towards the style of play you like (and one that I like and that is, I think, inevitable for this league - it's just a question of how fast it gets there) but when TFC announced not one but two Designated Players along with its "new approach" it was a plan doomed from the start. Or at least, doomed while it was headed in that direction. So, now we still have that poor roster management to contend with this season and then we can see what direction the team is taking (within the restictions of the league).

prizby
07-16-2012, 09:31 AM
what happened saturday is due to the way the league has scheduled games for TFC. It was their 9th game in 28/29 days; there was no way (due to the lack of changes in the line-up) that TFC was going to be able to run with New England for 90 minutes; they'd have gotten eaten alive.

MLS talked about how the schedule would be more fair, but lets look at our opponents.

Kansas City - coming off the same 3 week MLS break, although they also played 2 Open Cup games; enough of a break to rest their players, just like us.
Houston - coming off the same 4 day break
New England - coming off a weeks break while we are off a 3 day break
Montreal - coming off the same 4 day break
New York - coming off a 6 day break, while we are on a 3 day break
Dallas - coming off an 11 day break, while we are on a 4 day break
Philadelphia - coming off the same 4 day break
Vancouver - coming off a 4 day break, while we are on a 3 day break
New England - coming off a 6 day break while we are on a 3 day break
Colorado - coming off the same 4 day break

40% of the games in this stretch see's teams coming off longer breaks for their players...and this is worse than an unbalanced schedule?

Huyton
07-16-2012, 09:31 AM
Winter:
Team.........Poss.....Venue..Result
Seattle .....48.1..... A..... L
San Jose ....59.6..... H..... L
Columbus ....54.9..... H..... L
Montreal ....41.6..... A..... L
Chivas ......47.0..... H..... L
Chicago .....56.2..... H..... L
Salt Lake ...43.1..... A..... L
DC ..........46.1..... H..... L
DC ..........40.6..... A..... L
Philly ......41.6..... H..... W
Average .....47.9.... 6H,4A.. 0.3ppg

Mariner:
Team.........Poss.....Venue..Result
Kansas ......39.7..... A......L
Houston .....36.7..... A......T
New England .36.5..... H..... T
Montreal ....36.4..... A..... W
New York.....44.6..... H..... T
Dallas ......48........A..... T
Philly ......38.1..... A..... L
Vancouver ...40.5..... H..... W
New England .34.6..... A..... W
Average .....38.5.... 3H,6A.. 1.4 ppg


So...it's not whether you have the ball or not, it's what you do with it that counts.

T-boy
07-16-2012, 09:33 AM
what happened saturday is due to the way the league has scheduled games for TFC. It was their 9th game in 28/29 days; there was no way (due to the lack of changes in the line-up) that TFC was going to be able to run with New England for 90 minutes; they'd have gotten eaten alive.

MLS talked about how the schedule would be more fair, but lets look at our opponents.

Kansas City - coming off the same 3 week MLS break, although they also played 2 Open Cup games; enough of a break to rest their players, just like us.
Houston - coming off the same 4 day break
New England - coming off a weeks break while we are off a 3 day break
Montreal - coming off the same 4 day break
New York - coming off a 6 day break, while we are on a 3 day break
Dallas - coming off an 11 day break, while we are on a 4 day break
Philadelphia - coming off the same 4 day break
Vancouver - coming off a 4 day break, while we are on a 3 day break
New England - coming off a 6 day break while we are on a 3 day break
Colorado - coming off the same 4 day break

40% of the games in this stretch see's teams coming off longer breaks for their players...and this is worse than an unbalanced schedule?

I think you'll find that the teams who were "coming off the same break" as TFC, did have a week break PRIOR to their last game. TFC have played a month's worth of double gameweeks, I don't think any team in the league has had constant double gameweeks other than TFC in the last month?

T-boy
07-16-2012, 09:35 AM
I checked the schedule, TFC played midweek games on June 27th and also July 11th, whereas no other team did (other than the oppoment we were playing, obviously!). So, 2 more double gameweeks than any other MLS team in the last month. That's tough, man!

Canary10
07-16-2012, 09:37 AM
I think you'll find that the teams who were "coming off the same break" as TFC, did have a week break PRIOR to their last game. TFC have played a month's worth of double gameweeks, I don't think any team in the league has had constant double gameweeks other than TFC in the last month?

TFC also had more games than any other team in the first 2 1/2 months of the season. CCL is the main reason for all this. Anyone reconsider whether progression there is worth it? Not that it'll be an issue for next year...

T-boy
07-16-2012, 09:52 AM
TFC also had more games than any other team in the first 2 1/2 months of the season. CCL is the main reason for all this. Anyone reconsider whether progression there is worth it? Not that it'll be an issue for next year...

It depends on the different supporters. Some people see the cup/CCL games as the "most important", others see the league as most important.

Also, the early season games are played in 10 to 20 degree's, so aren't so energy zapping as the mid season games. I can't personally imagine, even if I'm a pro athlete, playing 2 football games a week in 30 plus heat with humidity for a month! the players have got to be losing a crazy amount of body weight per game in liquids alone! and then to play another game every 3 days, that's nuts!

Canary10
07-16-2012, 09:58 AM
It depends on the different supporters. Some people see the cup/CCL games as the "most important", others see the league as most important.

Also, the early season games are played in 10 to 20 degree's, so aren't so energy zapping as the mid season games. I can't personally imagine, even if I'm a pro athlete, playing 2 football games a week in 30 plus heat with humidity for a month! the players have got to be losing a crazy amount of body weight per game in liquids alone! and then to play another game every 3 days, that's nuts!

We played an average of a game every 5 days until Winter was fired. A game less than ever 4 days in the first month. Most other teams had a game every 6-7 days in that period. Right now we have a game every 3 days. I agree with you, that's insane. It wouldn't have happened though if we didn't have CCL - MLS had to schedule less for us early on to accomodate our extra games, and more later (ie. now). In the past 2 years the simple fact is TFC has had substantially more games than all other teams, especially the mid-pack teams we're competing against for a playoff spot. People who like to criticize our quality (under whichever manager) should remember that.

Canary10
07-16-2012, 10:02 AM
Winter:
Team.........Poss.....Venue..Result
Seattle .....48.1..... A..... L
San Jose ....59.6..... H..... L
Columbus ....54.9..... H..... L
Montreal ....41.6..... A..... L
Chivas ......47.0..... H..... L
Chicago .....56.2..... H..... L
Salt Lake ...43.1..... A..... L
DC ..........46.1..... H..... L
DC ..........40.6..... A..... L
Philly ......41.6..... H..... W
Average .....47.9.... 6H,4A.. 0.3ppg

Mariner:
Team.........Poss.....Venue..Result
Kansas ......39.7..... A......L
Houston .....36.7..... A......T
New England .36.5..... H..... T
Montreal ....36.4..... A..... W
New York.....44.6..... H..... T
Dallas ......48........A..... T
Philly ......38.1..... A..... L
Vancouver ...40.5..... H..... W
New England .34.6..... A..... W
Average .....38.5.... 3H,6A.. 1.4 ppg


So...it's not whether you have the ball or not, it's what you do with it that counts.

I would like to see what the top teams average. I can't imagine they average 38.5%.

ManUtd4ever
07-16-2012, 10:10 AM
Do you know what I find ironic?

Mariner is employing the same tactics that so many MLS clubs used to burn us on many occassions while Winter was at the helm. Like it or not, compact, direct, counter attacking football will earn results in this league more often than not.

The league could very well evolve over the next decade and TFC will have to adapt along with many other clubs in order to be successful. As long as the emphasis on the current philosophy being implemented throughout the ranks of the Academy does not wane, TFC should be in good shape moving forward once our select Academy prospects are ready to graduate to the first team.

In the interim, Mariner's mandate is to achieve results in the short term utilizing a tactical approach that is condusive to the collective skillset of his roster, and so far, he is doing a damn fine job.

Technorgasm
07-16-2012, 10:12 AM
"Passing to space" seems to be a MAJOR problem that we have never addressed fully.
or recognized as a the cause of our issues. . .

that is until I began watching mroe MLS games, watching other teams. .
it seems only 2-4 teams in thsi league pass to space rather than pass to the man, particularly in midfield.

Is it indicative of the type of football in North America?

Excellent thread and some amazing contributions within it. . .

v00d00daddy
07-16-2012, 10:12 AM
Apparently, winning!


Yeah...winning that won't be able to be repeated.

One game we were the better team and still almost gave it away at the death and the next game where we were clearly NOT the better team and managed the win on the back of Milos Kocic.

If you think the way we played against NE is a recipe for success then I fear that you'll be sorely disappointed. Not to mention that without Koevermans, we don't score that Silva goal.

We'll see...but I think Mariners style is going to die a quick death in the coming weeks.

v00d00daddy
07-16-2012, 10:18 AM
Do you know what I find ironic?

Mariner is employing the same tactics that so many MLS clubs used to burn us on many occassions while Winter was at the helm. Like it or not, compact, direct, counter attacking football will earn results in this league more often than not.

The league could very well evolve over the next decade and TFC will have to adapt along with many other clubs in order to be successful. As long as the emphasis on the current philosophy being implemented throughout the ranks of the Academy does not wane, TFC should be in good shape moving forward once our select Academy prospects are ready to graduate to the first team.

In the interim, Mariner's mandate is to achieve results in the short term utilizing a tactical approach that is condusive to the collective skillset of his roster, and so far, he is doing a damn fine job.

The league is evolving that way now. As we speak. And TFC was a part of that evolution. Unfortunately, the guy that they charged with leading that evolution proved not to be the right guy. What I cringe at is the solution.

Rather than stay the course and find a suitable replacement for Winter...we went with a guy who is currently contributing to the de-evolution of the team. For the sake of a few results that will ultimately mean nothing, we've decided to employ a style that is dead in football. All to pander to SSH's.

As for Mariner's interim mandate...I'm fine with it. I see through it but I get it. I honestly don't care...as long as it is an interim solution. If the plan is to ride out Mariner for the remainder of the season and then find a coach who will go back to playing a possession based style than I can't complain much. It wouldn't be how I would have done it but what's done is done.

If, on the other hand, they get sucked into Mariner's way of doing things and we continue to move forward with his current style as the backbone of the TFC first team I'll be gone. Results be damned. Cause I know the results will be modest and short lived.

I equate it to young Canadian club teams. For the years of 10 years old until 14-15 they compete with the best in the world. They get by on kick and run/my fastest player is bigger and stronger than yours style. Unfortunately they find a glass ceiling because, at a certain point, that style becomes easy to beat. And you're left with nothing but a team that can only ever achieve moderate success at best and never actually compete with the best.

TFC in MLS will be the same if Mariner (assuming he keeps this style) is kept at the helm for any kind of duration beyond this season.

Beach_Red
07-16-2012, 10:26 AM
Yeah...winning that won't be able to be repeated.

One game we were the better team and still almost gave it away at the death and the next game where we were clearly NOT the better team and managed the win on the back of Milos Kocic.

If you think the way we played against NE is a recipe for success then I fear that you'll be sorely disappointed. Not to mention that without Koevermans, we don't score that Silva goal.

We'll see...but I think Mariners style is going to die a quick death in the coming weeks.


It's unlikely anyone thinks the way we played against NE is a recipe for future success or that the style being played right now is what's planned for the future. It's pretty clearly a stopgap put in place to stop the bleeding and remove the, "worst team in the world" tag.

There were an awful lot of reasons not to believe in the sincerity of the previous "vision" (not the least of which was the signing of two DPs, bringing the team's total to the league max three and sucking up most of the salary space - a terrible way to create the kind of team you - and most of us - want) so what are we to make of the current - clearly interim - stage? Too sson to tell, of course, but there's no reason to believe the team has actually gone as far off course as you fear. Let's see what players get brought in as salary space gets opened up.

Canary10
07-16-2012, 10:26 AM
The league is evolving that way now. As we speak. And TFC was a part of that evolution. Unfortunately, the guy that they charged with leading that evolution proved not to be the right guy. What I cringe at is the solution.

Rather than stay the course and find a suitable replacement for Winter...we went with a guy who is currently contributing to the de-evolution of the team. For the sake of a few results that will ultimately mean nothing, we've decided to employ a style that is dead in football. All to pander to SSH's.


Good point. We've turned this into a discussion about Winter v. Mariner when the real discussion is which system works. It's a bit hard to do that now with evidence, as a lot of teams are moving toward possession, but not a lot of teams do it consistently yet.

T-boy
07-16-2012, 10:29 AM
Yeah...winning that won't be able to be repeated.

One game we were the better team and still almost gave it away at the death and the next game where we were clearly NOT the better team and managed the win on the back of Milos Kocic.

If you think the way we played against NE is a recipe for success then I fear that you'll be sorely disappointed. Not to mention that without Koevermans, we don't score that Silva goal.

We'll see...but I think Mariners style is going to die a quick death in the coming weeks.

We've also had an over heavy weight of away games since Mariner has been coach (6 away to 3 at home). I agree Saturday tactics won't work very often, but I very much doubt we will be deploying that tactic at home (ever, I hope?!). This next month we get more home games, so I "hope" that we will continue to attack more at home, and then we will see how Mariner's style of play adapts.

Canary10
07-16-2012, 10:33 AM
It's unlikely anyone thinks the way we played against NE is a recipe for future success or that the style being played right now is what's planned for the future. It's pretty clearly a stopgap put in place to stop the bleeding and remove the, "worst team in the world" tag.

There were an awful lot of reasons not to believe in the sincerity of the previous "vision" (not the least of which was the signing of two DPs, bringing the team's total to the league max three and sucking up most of the salary space - a terrible way to create the kind of team you - and most of us - want) so what are we to make of the current - clearly interim - stage? Too sson to tell, of course, but there's no reason to believe the team has actually gone as far off course as you fear. Let's see what players get brought in as salary space gets opened up.

The question is, does dumping our few actual skilled, technical players as Mariner did in the past few weeks and rebuild around a less technical system set us back a few years on the road to playing the kind of football that will actually win championships?

T-boy
07-16-2012, 10:41 AM
Colorado proved two years ago that you definitely don't need a technical system to win anything in the MLS right now! Maybe in the future, but not right now. The MLS is still a far simpler league compared to most world football leagues. Winter's sysem may be common place in the MLS in years to come (ten years or more?) but not right now. If you can play direct football WELL in the MLS, you can win the league and cup as much as any team.

Canary10
07-16-2012, 10:48 AM
Colorado proved two years ago that you definitely don't need a technical system to win anything in the MLS right now! Maybe in the future, but not right now. The MLS is still a far simpler league compared to most world football leagues. Winter's sysem may be common place in the MLS in years to come (ten years or more?) but not right now. If you can play direct football WELL in the MLS, you can win the league and cup as much as any team.

Good example. And they are moving toward a technical system. In fact, they interviewed but declined to hire Mariner's brother-in-arms Steve Nicol and elected to higher someone with experience in a possession system. They decided to not do what we are doing now.

ManUtd4ever
07-16-2012, 10:59 AM
The league is evolving that way now. As we speak. And TFC was a part of that evolution. Unfortunately, the guy that they charged with leading that evolution proved not to be the right guy. What I cringe at is the solution.

Rather than stay the course and find a suitable replacement for Winter...we went with a guy who is currently contributing to the de-evolution of the team. For the sake of a few results that will ultimately mean nothing, we've decided to employ a style that is dead in football. All to pander to SSH's.

As for Mariner's interim mandate...I'm fine with it. I see through it but I get it. I honestly don't care...as long as it is an interim solution. If the plan is to ride out Mariner for the remainder of the season and then find a coach who will go back to playing a possession based style than I can't complain much. It wouldn't be how I would have done it but what's done is done.

If, on the other hand, they get sucked into Mariner's way of doing things and we continue to move forward with his current style as the backbone of the TFC first team I'll be gone. Results be damned. Cause I know the results will be modest and short lived.

I equate it to young Canadian club teams. For the years of 10 years old until 14-15 they compete with the best in the world. They get by on kick and run/my fastest player is bigger and stronger than yours style. Unfortunately they find a glass ceiling because, at a certain point, that style becomes easy to beat. And you're left with nothing but a team that can only ever achieve moderate success at best and never actually compete with the best.

TFC in MLS will be the same if Mariner (assuming he keeps this style) is kept at the helm for any kind of duration beyond this season.

This is where I believe you are gravely mistaken.

Positive results in the short term are crucial to the long term viability of the franchise. TFC was at a serious crossroads after the horrendous start to the regular season. If TFC had stayed the course with Winter, or hired a replacement that insisted on a rigid adherence to the Dutch philosophy that clearly wasn't working with the first team, and our record of futility had continued, it would have caused irreparable damage to the franchise. The STH base would have been decimated, and the interest in the club from the fan base at large would have regressed substantially.

Do you not realize the financial implications of losing support on that level moving forward?

Right now we are one of a handful of clubs that has the financial resources to sign 3 DPs and utilize one of the highest payrolls in the league. Whether or not those resources were used wisely by previous management is beside the point. If our attendance dropped to the point wherein we became a league minnow, the consequences would be far more devastating moving forward than disappointing a few supporters who were willing to stand by a philosophy in the short term that led to our worst cumulative record since the club's inception.

If people want to turn their back on the club because of Mariner's tactical approach despite the immediate change in our club's fortunes, that's their prerogative. The organization has other priorities, and rightfully so. You call it pandering to the STHs, but at the end of the day, that has to be the priority of the FO, or this franchise will erode into nothing more than an afterthought within the sporting landscape of our city. I don't want to see that happen, not under any circumstances.

Beach_Red
07-16-2012, 11:03 AM
The question is, does dumping our few actual skilled, technical players as Mariner did in the past few weeks and rebuild around a less technical system set us back a few years on the road to playing the kind of football that will actually win championships?

Have we started the rebuild yet? It's just kind of funny that we're upset with the team for giving up on something too soon (something I don't think they were ever sincere about) and we're very quickly giving up on this.

The Colorado example is a good one. The question is, can you get from here to there without going through all the interim steps? Yeah, it's going to be ugly for a while - it was ugly in Colorado and they won the Cup (with Marvel Wynne on the backline, imagine that) which gave them the chance to make these kind of moves.

If TFC is going to make the same kind of moves it has to earn them and that means winning - even winning ugly for a while.

Canary10
07-16-2012, 11:06 AM
Have we started the rebuild yet? It's just kind of funny that we're upset with the team for giving up on something too soon (something I don't think they were ever sincere about) and we're very quickly giving up on this.

The Colorado example is a good one. The question is, can you get from here to there without going through all the interim steps? Yeah, it's going to be ugly for a while - it was ugly in Colorado and they won the Cup (with Marvel Wynne on the backline, imagine that) which gave them the chance to make these kind of moves.

If TFC is going to make the same kind of moves it has to earn them and that means winning - even winning ugly for a while.

Have we started the rebuild? No. Have we started the tear down? Yes.

Colorado won a championship playing ugly. Not sure how many other teams will. I think our current direction is a recipe for being a mid-table team. And that's what our results so far show too.

v00d00daddy
07-16-2012, 11:09 AM
This is where I believe you are gravely mistaken.

Positive results in the short term are crucial to the long term viability of the franchise. TFC was at a serious crossroads after the horrendous start to the regular season. If TFC had stayed the course with Winter, or hired a replacement that insisted on a rigid adherence to the Dutch philosophy that clearly wasn't working with the first team, and our record of futility had continued, it would have caused irreparable damage to the franchise. The STH base would have been decimated, and the interest in the club from the fan base at large would have regressed substantially.

Do you not realize that the financial implications of losing support on that level moving forward?

Right now we are one of a handful of clubs that has the financial resources to sign 3 DPs and utilize one of the highest payrolls in the league. Whether or not those resources were used wisely by previous management is beside the point. If our attendance dropped to the point wherein we became a league minnow, the consequences would be far more devastating moving forward than disappointing a few supporters who were willing to stick by a philosophy that led to our worst cumulative record since the club's inception.

If people want to turn their back on the club because of Mariner's tactical approach despite the immediate change in our club's fortunes, that's their prerogative. The organization has other priorities, and rightfully so. You call it pandering to the STHs, but at the end of the day, that has to be the priority of the FO, or this franchise will erode into nothing more than an afterthought within the sporting landscape of our city. I don't want to see that happen, not under any circumstances.

If If If....

We're being led down a road that we've been down before. We're running in circles.

Here's another if..

What if we continue with Mariner and his style of play and player acquisition skills begin to amount to a team that can not compete beyond a middle of the road team?

What if the soccer becomes so hard to watch that a win like the one we had on Saturday becomes a source of frustration as opposed to something that inspires confidence for the future?

Because that's where I see this team going. I see it because I've seen it before. It's the way the team was set up from day one and when shit got really bad the FO listened to the supporters and went with a "results are the only thing that matters" way of thinking and we were left with Preki.

Now we're saying the same thing and being duped into believing that the way the team is playing has the potential to morph into some kind of championship calibre football.

It doesn't. And when we realize that later this season we'll back to worrying about SSH renewals. Only difference is that we'll be fed the usual bullshit about Mariner getting results and needing more time to bring in his players....and not have to deal with fixture congestion....and just wait until DK is healthy again.

All things that people were fed up of hearing about Winter. And rightly so.

And in time, we'll hear the same garbage about Mariner....but by then we will have wasted half a year playing a style that will not get us to where we want to be.

It's become so frustrating that it will be easier for me to walk away from this club than to deal with watching them regress and play football that shouldn't even be taught to young kids anymore...let alone be played by professionals.

T-boy
07-16-2012, 11:12 AM
Have we started the rebuild yet? It's just kind of funny that we're upset with the team for giving up on something too soon (something I don't think they were ever sincere about) and we're very quickly giving up on this.

The Colorado example is a good one. The question is, can you get from here to there without going through all the interim steps? Yeah, it's going to be ugly for a while - it was ugly in Colorado and they won the Cup (with Marvel Wynne on the backline, imagine that) which gave them the chance to make these kind of moves.

If TFC is going to make the same kind of moves it has to earn them and that means winning - even winning ugly for a while.

It takes YEARS to move to a very technical system. Ajax were training their kids (like from 8 years old up) for a long long time before it all came together in the first team. It's a LONG term vision to get a club playing from children to academy to first team in the same way. The problem with Winter/TFC was that they tried to force the first team into playing something they were nowhere near ready for playing.

The issue is that Ajax/European clubs have a long tradition of training their children to play technical football. The MLS has a few years. In time, the MLS and TFC could possibly play the type of football played in other areas of the football world. But, TFC players, right now, are not ready for it at all.

If you have a well drilled, direct football team in the MLS, you can win the league right now, and you will be able to for a few years to come. I'd love to see a "total football" team win the MLS year after year playing dazzling football, but at the moment that level of skill isn't here.

T-boy
07-16-2012, 11:13 AM
Have we started the rebuild? No. Have we started the tear down? Yes.

Colorado won a championship playing ugly. Not sure how many other teams will. I think our current direction is a recipe for being a mid-table team. And that's what our results so far show too.

If we kept up our current form under Mariner (3-4-2) wouldn't that actually get us very close to the play offs? If not IN the play offs?

Canary10
07-16-2012, 11:14 AM
It takes YEARS to move to a very technical system. Ajax were training their kids (like from 8 years old up) for a long long time before it all came together in the first team. It's a LONG term vision to get a club playing from children to academy to first team in the same way. The problem with Winter/TFC was that they tried to force the first team into playing something they were nowhere near ready for playing.

The issue is that Ajax/European clubs have a long tradition of training their children to play technical football. The MLS has a few years. In time, the MLS and TFC could possibly play the type of football played in other areas of the football world. But, TFC players, right now, are not ready for it at all.

If you have a well drilled, direct football team in the MLS, you can win the league right now, and you will be able to for a few years to come. I'd love to see a "total football" team win the MLS year after year playing dazzling football, but at the moment that level of skill isn't here.

"Total football" is a red herring and you know it.

Pookie
07-16-2012, 11:16 AM
Have we started the rebuild yet? It's just kind of funny that we're upset with the team for giving up on something too soon (something I don't think they were ever sincere about) and we're very quickly giving up on this.

The Colorado example is a good one. The question is, can you get from here to there without going through all the interim steps? Yeah, it's going to be ugly for a while - it was ugly in Colorado and they won the Cup (with Marvel Wynne on the backline, imagine that) which gave them the chance to make these kind of moves.

If TFC is going to make the same kind of moves it has to earn them and that means winning - even winning ugly for a while.

Actually, it will mean that we need to invest in scouting in order to do a much better job of roster management... regardless of the system.

I actually don't fault Mariner. He is doing what every one of us would do. He is going to succeed or fail using what he knows, even if the rest of the MLS world is leaving him behind..

The real fault here is Anselmi giving him the keys and Anselmi not ensuring that the organization allocated enough resources to its scouting and player ID efforts. A major decision looming on the horizon is whether de Klerk and Rongen will be extended/stay/or be replaced with Mariner's guys. Again, no fault of Mariner to want to do that but supreme fault lies at Anselmi's feet if he lets that happen.

If they go, the last remaining hope that will can adapt to the changing MLS world will evaporate.

T-boy
07-16-2012, 11:17 AM
"Total football" is a red herring and you know it.

Oh I know, and agreed. I'm just saying that Winter was triyng to get the average MLS player to try and play something they clearly were not ready to play. Call it total football, call it tikka takka, call it superior football, call it whatever you want, the average MLS player is not ready for it....YET.

Canary10
07-16-2012, 11:19 AM
Oh I know, and agreed. I'm just saying that Winter was triyng to get the average MLS player to try and play something they clearly were not ready to play. Call it total football, call it tikka takka, call it superior football, call it whatever you want, the average MLS player is not ready for it....YET.

We're still comparing Winter and Mariner when the real goal post is what the top teams are doing.

(And yeah, you're right, with that win Saturday we'd be in a playoff spot over 34 games, but we're swinging pretty far on either side game to game given how low our sample still is).

Beach_Red
07-16-2012, 11:20 AM
Have we started the rebuild? No. Have we started the tear down? Yes.

Colorado won a championship playing ugly. Not sure how many other teams will. I think our current direction is a recipe for being a mid-table team. And that's what our results so far show too.

If we stay the way we are, mid-table is a dream ;). Of course, for all MLSE teams, mid-table is a dream....

Look, all I'm saying is the team hadn't earned it's grandiose proclamations (maybe I'm overly sensitive to this because I work in the TV business that's constantly telling us they're going to be "world leaders" and then finding out that's really expensive so they make another season of junk instead). What TFC wanted to do required competing for a limited number of players that every other team wanted, too. Or finding players other teams hadn't targeted. They weren't able to do it - certainly not as quickly as they thought they could. Maybe they gave up on the idea too quickly, maybe not.

ManUtd4ever
07-16-2012, 11:21 AM
If If If....

We're being led down a road that we've been down before. We're running in circles.

Here's another if..

What if we continue with Mariner and his style of play and player acquisition skills begin to amount to a team that can not compete beyond a middle of the road team?

What if the soccer becomes so hard to watch that a win like the one we had on Saturday becomes a source of frustration as opposed to something that inspires confidence for the future?

Because that's where I see this team going. I see it because I've seen it before. It's the way the team was set up from day one and when shit got really bad the FO listened to the supporters and went with a "results are the only thing that matters" way of thinking and we were left with Preki.

Now we're saying the same thing and being duped into believing that the way the team is playing has the potential to morph into some kind of championship calibre football.

It doesn't. And when we realize that later this season we'll back to worrying about SSH renewals. Only difference is that we'll be fed the usual bullshit about Mariner getting results and needing more time to bring in his players....and not have to deal with fixture congestion....and just wait until DK is healthy again.

All things that people were fed up of hearing about Winter. And rightly so.

And in time, we'll hear the same garbage about Mariner....but by then we will have wasted half a year playing a style that will not get us to where we want to be.

It's become so frustrating that it will be easier for me to walk away from this club than to deal with watching them regress and play football that shouldn't even be taught to young kids anymore...let alone be played by professionals.

Alright, forget the Ifs. Deal with the absolutes that are tangible at this point in time.

Almost everyone acknowledged that the FO had to replace Winter as a result of his laughable record in 44 league games. The FO chose to promote Mariner based on his extensive experience in MLS, and so far, the decision has started to pay immediate dividends.

There's no point worrying about the evolution of the league when MLSE has already made a 20 million dollar investment to ensure that our next crop of Academy graduates will be prepared to play a possession oriented style of football. If Rongen and DeKlerk are fired at some point and the philosophy within the Academy is overhauled, then you can accuse the organization of abandoning the philosophy. Until then, no one has any evidence whatsoever that TFC is not developing an infrastructure with the intent of developing a first team that will be able to adapt in the next few years.

Greatest Ripoff
07-16-2012, 11:23 AM
Can someone tell me how the Academy fits into all this? For the U18s this season, two standout players have been Omari Morris (a pacey winger who is played on the right side of a front 3) and Sergio Camargo (a small technically gifted midfielder who scores goals and plays centrally in a 3 man midfield). Currently the first team plays a system and formation that would have no use for them. The players (plata and soolsma) who played the position Morris plays have been shipped out and the players (silva and avila) who played a similar role as Camargo have been played as wide midfielders in a flat 4 under Mariner.

When the team correctly replaced Winter, they chose to move in a direction to achieve immediate results in season where making the the play offs would all but be impossible. Will this have a detrimental effect on the Academy? These kids are being trained to play a way that might have little use to the first team. When it comes times to graduate them, will Mariner want them? Will they want to play for Toronto?

So the question is, how do academy players fit in with the future of this team? I was at Downsview on Friday for the U18 match, Danny and Thomas are doing a great job developing young technical footballers. I would hate to see all of the time and resources being put into this the academy go to waste.

Another player I saw on Friday and that I've been impressed with the few times I have seen him play live this year is Tyler Pasher. He is a leftback similar to Ashton Morgan. Does a great job get up and down the sideline withespeed and can provide a good cross. It both continue to develop at their current pace, by the time Ashton is getting attention from larger clubs he could be a great replacement.

Beach_Red
07-16-2012, 11:26 AM
Actually, it will mean that we need to invest in scouting in order to do a much better job of roster management... regardless of the system.

I actually don't fault Mariner. He is doing what every one of us would do. He is going to succeed or fail using what he knows, even if the rest of the MLS world is leaving him behind..

The real fault here is Anselmi giving him the keys and Anselmi not ensuring that the organization allocated enough resources to its scouting and player ID efforts. A major decision looming on the horizon is whether de Klerk and Rongen will be extended/stay/or be replaced with Mariner's guys. Again, no fault of Mariner to want to do that but supreme fault lies at Anselmi's feet if he lets that happen.

If they go, the last remaining hope that will can adapt to the changing MLS world will evaporate.

Sure, but even a big investment in scouting will only identify players - they still have to be convinced to sign with TFC. That's a little tough when your own players are calling you the worst team in the world. Of course, that's not a factor with the draft (poor bastards have no choice ;)) so if the US produces enough players of the right style, that's what TFC will play.

The fault of Anselmi was accepting the consultant's plan that required a particular type of player without knowing whether or not enough of those players were available. In fact, everyone who signed on to implement that plan shares the blame for not filling out the roster properly. But we have no idea who was responsible for what. Someone decided two DPs was the best first signing.

T-boy
07-16-2012, 11:27 AM
Alright, forget the Ifs. Deal with the absolutes that are tangible at this point in time.

Almost everyone acknowledged that the FO had to replace Winter as a result of his laughable record in 44 league games. The FO chose to promote Mariner based on his extensive experience in MLs, and so far, the decision has started to pay immediate dividends.

There's no point worrying about the evolution of the league when MLSE has already made a 20 million dollar investment to ensure that our next crop of Academy graduates will be prepared to play a possession oriented style of football. If Rongen and DeKlerk are fired at some point and the philosophy within the Academy is overhauled, then you can accuse the organization of abandoning the philosophy. Until then, no one has any evidence whatsoever that TFC is not developing an infrastructure with the intent of developing a first team that will be able to adapt in the next few years.

Agreed completely. Everybody knows that I like Mariner. Everybody also knows that I don't complain about Anselmi! BUT......IF (and that's the question...IF?) the academy is overhauled and De Klerk and Rongen are replaced, and the academy start training on ONLY a direct style of football, I will complain and point fingers at Anselmi as much as anybody else. BUT...until that time, and the academy are still playing the system and learning 4-3-3, I think the future is still bright.

Some people on the forum are "assuming" that De Klerk/Rongen/the system WILL all be replaced eventually. But that's an assumption on their behalf right now.

If Mariner can continue to get short term results with the first team, and De Klerk and Rongen can still train the kids on the system, then there is no reason we can't have short AND long term success. I'm not going to "assume" that the long term vision will be changing, as it hasn't so far....

ManUtd4ever
07-16-2012, 11:27 AM
Can someone tell me how the Academy fits into all this? For the U18s this season, two standout players have been Omari Morris (a pacey winger who is played on the right side of a front 3) and Sergio Camargo (a small technically gifted midfielder who scores goals and plays centrally in a 3 man midfield). Currently the first team plays a system and formation that would have no use for them. The players (plata and soolsma) who played the position Morris plays have been shipped out and the players (silva and avila) who played a similar role as Camargo have been played as wide midfielders in a flat 4 under Mariner.

When the team correctly replaced Winter, they chose to move in a direction to achieve immediate results in season where making the the play offs would all but be impossible. Will this have a detrimental effect on the Academy? These kids are being trained to play a way that might have little use to the first team. When it comes times to graduate them, will Mariner want them? Will they want to play for Toronto?

So the question is, how do academy players fit in with the future of this team? I was at Downsview on Friday for the U18 match, Danny and Thomas are doing a great job developing young technical footballers. I would hate to see all of the time and resources being put into this the academy go to waste.

Another player I saw on Friday and that I've been impressed with the few times I have seen him play live this year is Tyler Pasher. He is a leftback similar to Ashton Morgan. Does a great job get up and down the sideline withespeed and can provide a good cross. It both continue to develop at their current pace, by the time Ashton is getting attention from larger clubs he could be a great replacement.

In all likelihood, by the time these kids are ready to be promoted to the first team, Paul Mariner will no longer be on the sidelines.

Greatest Ripoff
07-16-2012, 11:45 AM
In all likelihood, by the time these kids are ready to be promoted to the first team, Paul Mariner will no longer be on the sidelines.

They are not too far away from being ready. With Morris, if he doesn't sign after this season he will go to the NCAA. Yes, Toronto can keep his rights if he trains with them in the off season but for his development would it be better for him not to go to the NCAA?

Pookie
07-16-2012, 11:51 AM
Can someone tell me how the Academy fits into all this? For the U18s this season, two standout players have been Omari Morris (a pacey winger who is played on the right side of a front 3) and Sergio Camargo (a small technically gifted midfielder who scores goals and plays centrally in a 3 man midfield). Currently the first team plays a system and formation that would have no use for them. The players (plata and soolsma) who played the position Morris plays have been shipped out and the players (silva and avila) who played a similar role as Camargo have been played as wide midfielders in a flat 4 under Mariner.

When the team correctly replaced Winter, they chose to move in a direction to achieve immediate results in season where making the the play offs would all but be impossible. Will this have a detrimental effect on the Academy? These kids are being trained to play a way that might have little use to the first team. When it comes times to graduate them, will Mariner want them? Will they want to play for Toronto?

So the question is, how do academy players fit in with the future of this team? I was at Downsview on Friday for the U18 match, Danny and Thomas are doing a great job developing young technical footballers. I would hate to see all of the time and resources being put into this the academy go to waste.

Another player I saw on Friday and that I've been impressed with the few times I have seen him play live this year is Tyler Pasher. He is a leftback similar to Ashton Morgan. Does a great job get up and down the sideline withespeed and can provide a good cross. It both continue to develop at their current pace, by the time Ashton is getting attention from larger clubs he could be a great replacement.

This is the rub.

If Mariner promotes these players, he essentially makes himself obsolete. While some of us theorize that the Academy playing one way and the first team playing another will somehow magically result in a smooth transition to the first team these miss some major points.

1) The more players and coaches he brings in that can nurture the Klinsmann model, the less important he becomes
2) The players he needs to bring in to support his system are not the same ones that can excel under the Klinsmann model.
3) Beach Red makes a great point, attracting players here will be a challenge. Plata already left because he felt he couldn't develop under Mariner. If you are a US player, with USMNT aspirations, and the USMNT is playing 4-3-3, are you going to want to come here and wait for the transition to 4-3-3? If the transition is on again, are you going to want to lose again?
4) Let's assume that they decide in 2013 to play 4-3-3, are we purging the roster? Players that can play Mariner's system are on multi-year deals. A player like Dunfield is on the roster until his contract expires or he is waived. Either way, the flexibility to overhaul a roster over night is severely limited

For those reasons and many others, Academies and First Teams are learning the same system, at the same time. It's sort of being half-way pregnant. You are either on board or not. There really is no seamless middle ground

v00d00daddy
07-16-2012, 11:51 AM
In all likelihood, by the time these kids are ready to be promoted to the first team, Paul Mariner will no longer be on the sidelines.

Hopefully not.

But then the logical question will be:

Why did we go with Mariner at all?

So that supporters could feel good about grinding out some results for half a season?

Results that will serve nothing but convince some people not to give up their season tickets.

Why couldn't they just say:

"we've moved on from Aron Winter but have brought in _______ to get results while continuing the vision of playing attractive, possession based football"

Why was the reaction so harsh?

How does this club think that appointing Mariner and promoting Brennan to a first team coach makes sense and falls in line with what they told us a year and a half ago?

And why are we buying it?

Because of a terrible win against NE? Lol

I can't hang my hat on that. Sorry...I just can't.

Greatest Ripoff
07-16-2012, 11:52 AM
In all likelihood, by the time these kids are ready to be promoted to the first team, Paul Mariner will no longer be on the sidelines.

And is there is no long term plan for Mariner, then why is he in charge right now and making decisions that effect the long term for Toronto?

ag futbol
07-16-2012, 11:54 AM
Have we started the rebuild? No. Have we started the tear down? Yes.

Colorado won a championship playing ugly. Not sure how many other teams will. I think our current direction is a recipe for being a mid-table team. And that's what our results so far show too.
Pretty much what I see out of it. It has low downside, but also low upside.

I think there's a lot of middle ground to be covered when it comes to possession football. I don't think it should be stated in terms of our current style vs. Spain. We don't always have to dink the ball around the back, but I think playing too direct is self defeating.

Greatest Ripoff
07-16-2012, 12:01 PM
Pretty much what I see out of it. It has low downside, but also low upside.

I think there's a lot of middle ground to be covered when it comes to possession football. I don't think it should be stated in terms of our current style vs. Spain. We don't always have to dink the ball around the back, but I think playing too direct is self defeating.

Yes there is a lot of middle ground. TFC will never play like Spain or Barcelona, but why can't Toronto play a similar to Swansea? They proved all you need is good coaching and players who can work hard without the ball and have confidence with the ball at their feet.

Huyton
07-16-2012, 12:04 PM
If we kept up our current form under Mariner (3-4-2) wouldn't that actually get us very close to the play offs? If not IN the play offs?

Not quite. Mariner has got 13 points from 9 games. That would be 27 points from 19 games. Good enough for in 6th place, 1 point behind Houston. Incidentally, 27 points would be good enough for a playoff spot in the West Division.

We are, however, within striking distance of Montreal. The Limp-Act have 21 points from 21 games, we have 16 points from 19 games. If we win both games in hand, we'll have 22 points.

Beach_Red
07-16-2012, 12:05 PM
Hopefully not.

But then the logical question will be:

Why did we go with Mariner at all?

So that supporters could feel good about grinding out some results for half a season?

Results that will serve nothing but convince some people not to give up their season tickets.

Why couldn't they just say:

"we've moved on from Aron Winter but have brought in _______ to get results while continuing the vision of playing attractive, possession based football"

Why was the reaction so harsh?

How does this club think that appointing Mariner and promoting Brennan to a first team coach makes sense and falls in line with what they told us a year and a half ago?

And why are we buying it?

Because of a terrible win against NE? Lol

I can't hang my hat on that. Sorry...I just can't.

It was definitely a thrown-together plan. The decision was made to change coaches to try and grind out some wins. You can't go 0-34, no matter what your future plans may be or what you're building towards. Winter was offered another job and chose not to take it. There was certainly not going to be any more money spent on yet another coach (Anselmi admitted he needed board approval to remove Winter so he certainly need board approval to sign another contract and there was no way he was getting that).

So, a year and half a go they told us something we wanted to hear - it was quite out of character with everything else they'd done before that but suddenly we decided this time it was the truth. Well, we spent a few season "just happy to have a team," and not very worried about the fact that they'd never bothered to put together a proper front office and infrastructure so I guess they figured they could keep telling us whatever we wanted to hear and we'd never look behind the curtain.

It's possible the new ownership will make big changes, but more likely Paul Mariner will get kicked upstairs (someone has to be the 'soccer guy' between MLSE and TFC) and as the US and academy produces enough players to allow the team to change style a new, younger coach will be brought in to do it.

This really has nothing to do with a few wins under Mariner, it has to do with TFC finally becoming an MLS team. I like your posts, you're an interesting guy, but this league clearly isn't for you - yet. Maybe you should take a break and come back in a few years when the league is better. If it is better. The one weakness in this whole plan is that US soccer is going to get better. Let's hope it does.

Stouffville_RPB
07-16-2012, 12:05 PM
Winter:
Team.........Poss.....Venue..Result
Average .....47.9.... 6H,4A.. 0.3ppg

Mariner:
Team.........Poss.....Venue..Result
Average .....38.5.... 3H,6A.. 1.4 ppg

So...it's not whether you have the ball or not, it's what you do with it that counts.

I agree overall with what you are trying to say. In a game you don't need to have 60%+ possession to win but to say it is ok to continually have under 40% of the ball won't bring consistent results. Teams (especially good ones) will not flush away chances like New England had or Kocic won't make incredible saves like he did this weekend. Possession doesn't always equal goals but the less you have the ball the fewer chances you do get.

It is a fair strategy in one off games however, to go into every game saying we can win while having so little it just won't work long term.

ag futbol
07-16-2012, 12:07 PM
Yes there is a lot of middle ground. TFC will never play like Spain or Barcelona, but why can't Toronto play a similar to Swansea? They proved all you need is good coaching and players who can work hard without the ball and have confidence with the ball at their feet.
I don't disagree with that.

Unfortunately, we're a little gun shy right now. A lot of blame is being put on tactics, but really the biggest problem was that the guy in charge of implementing those tactics was not right for the job and whoever identified the players to perform in the system was also awful.

Whoop
07-16-2012, 12:07 PM
I agree overall with what you are trying to say. In a game you don't need to have 60%+ possession to win but to say it is ok to continually have under 40% of the ball won't bring consistent results. Teams (especially good ones) will not flush away chances like New England had or Kocic won't make incredible saves like he did this weekend. Possession doesn't always equal goals but the less you have the ball the fewer chances you do get.

It is a fair strategy in one off games however, to go into every game saying we can win while having so little it just won't work long term.

This.

In a small sample - even a year is a small sample in terms of statistics - sure it can work, but over the long term it doesn't.

Huyton
07-16-2012, 12:12 PM
Agreed completely. Everybody knows that I like Mariner. Everybody also knows that I don't complain about Anselmi! BUT......IF (and that's the question...IF?) the academy is overhauled and De Klerk and Rongen are replaced, and the academy start training on ONLY a direct style of football, I will complain and point fingers at Anselmi as much as anybody else. BUT...until that time, and the academy are still playing the system and learning 4-3-3, I think the future is still bright.

Some people on the forum are "assuming" that De Klerk/Rongen/the system WILL all be replaced eventually. But that's an assumption on their behalf right now.

If Mariner can continue to get short term results with the first team, and De Klerk and Rongen can still train the kids on the system, then there is no reason we can't have short AND long term success. I'm not going to "assume" that the long term vision will be changing, as it hasn't so far....

Indeed.

Mariner has shown an ability to get more out of the players at his disposal than Winter managed. Given better players, I expect Mariner to deliver better results. If he does not, then he should suffer the exact same fate as every other coach who does not deliver.

Stouffville_RPB
07-16-2012, 12:19 PM
Hopefully not.
But then the logical question will be:
Why did we go with Mariner at all?
So that supporters could feel good about grinding out some results for half a season?
Results that will serve nothing but convince some people not to give up their season tickets.
Why couldn't they just say:
"we've moved on from Aron Winter but have brought in _______ to get results while continuing the vision of playing attractive, possession based football"
Why was the reaction so harsh?
How does this club think that appointing Mariner and promoting Brennan to a first team coach makes sense and falls in line with what they told us a year and a half ago?
And why are we buying it?
Because of a terrible win against NE? Lol
I can't hang my hat on that. Sorry...I just can't.

It's off topic but...

That is exactly what they are doing. Fact is voodoo that you are in the minority. In the end wins (especially in the 2nd half of seasons) will get people feeling good and renewing their seats. That's the bottom line. Mariner's style fits that perfectly being able to get some results for a while and bring some hope.

They have 100% ditched the style and tactics that they were selling for the last 18 months. Fact is FO doesn't have the ability to think (and stick) to a long term goal. There is no vision other than to see 6 months down the road. That is why the shift was a complete 180.

Greatest Ripoff
07-16-2012, 12:37 PM
I but really the biggest problem was that the guy in charge of implementing those tactics was not right for the job and whoever identified the players to perform in the system was also awful.

This is 100% bang on. The teams needs someone who can properly coach and identify and scout players. It doesn't matter what system the team plays and I don't think Toronto has ever had this.

Greatest Ripoff
07-16-2012, 12:38 PM
Indeed.

Mariner has shown an ability to get more out of the players at his disposal than Winter managed. Given better players, I expect Mariner to deliver better results. If he does not, then he should suffer the exact same fate as every other coach who does not deliver.

But if Mariner is able to show mid table results what good does that do for the future of the team and academy?

v00d00daddy
07-16-2012, 01:15 PM
It was definitely a thrown-together plan. The decision was made to change coaches to try and grind out some wins. You can't go 0-34, no matter what your future plans may be or what you're building towards. Winter was offered another job and chose not to take it. There was certainly not going to be any more money spent on yet another coach (Anselmi admitted he needed board approval to remove Winter so he certainly need board approval to sign another contract and there was no way he was getting that).

So, a year and half a go they told us something we wanted to hear - it was quite out of character with everything else they'd done before that but suddenly we decided this time it was the truth. Well, we spent a few season "just happy to have a team," and not very worried about the fact that they'd never bothered to put together a proper front office and infrastructure so I guess they figured they could keep telling us whatever we wanted to hear and we'd never look behind the curtain.

It's possible the new ownership will make big changes, but more likely Paul Mariner will get kicked upstairs (someone has to be the 'soccer guy' between MLSE and TFC) and as the US and academy produces enough players to allow the team to change style a new, younger coach will be brought in to do it.

This really has nothing to do with a few wins under Mariner, it has to do with TFC finally becoming an MLS team. I like your posts, you're an interesting guy, but this league clearly isn't for you - yet. Maybe you should take a break and come back in a few years when the league is better. If it is better. The one weakness in this whole plan is that US soccer is going to get better. Let's hope it does.


I fear you might be right about this team not being for me. I'd hoped to see the team build towards something worthwhile. Something impressive, that would serve as a blueprint for football in this city as a whole. A team that would inspire younger players to want to be a part of.

Instead, they've gone back to playing a style that I played in, and against, whether it was Erin Mills or Pickering. It's disheartening.

Problem is....IF I go, I probably won't be back.

The team has not done enough for me or people who share my viewpoint. They pander to the same people that have mucked up football in this country for as long as I've been around. It's embarrassing.

At the end of the day I don't care if we're playing a flat 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or any other formation. What sells me or pushes me away is defending by hoofing it to nobody, long throw ins on every opportunity, midfield players being totally bypassed and worst of all.....bad players being put on pedestals because they get "stuck in", despite the fact said player uses one leg as a kick stand and couldn't make an accurate 10 yard pass to save his life.

The wrong people are at the helm and the shit is flowing downhill...all the way down to the supporters....some of whom I think are as lost, and stuck in the past as the FO and coach.

denime
07-16-2012, 01:20 PM
Do you know what I find ironic?

Mariner is employing the same tactics that so many MLS clubs used to burn us on many occassions while Winter was at the helm. Like it or not, compact, direct, counter attacking football will earn results in this league more often than not.

The league could very well evolve over the next decade and TFC will have to adapt along with many other clubs in order to be successful. As long as the emphasis on the current philosophy being implemented throughout the ranks of the Academy does not wane, TFC should be in good shape moving forward once our select Academy prospects are ready to graduate to the first team.

In the interim, Mariner's mandate is to achieve results in the short term utilizing a tactical approach that is condusive to the collective skillset of his roster, and so far, he is doing a damn fine job.


Mariner is not interim coach,he got 3 years contact extension in April/May,and what we see is not short term fix,he is doing total overhaul as far roster and tactic/formation goes.

denime
07-16-2012, 01:27 PM
In all likelihood, by the time these kids are ready to be promoted to the first team, Paul Mariner will no longer be on the sidelines.

Let's hope these kids will be promoted this November to the first team. :)

T-boy
07-16-2012, 02:12 PM
But if Mariner is able to show mid table results what good does that do for the future of the team and academy?

But how are we going to judge Mariner by the end of the season? It won't be down to JUST results. We need to see that the squad/players are moving in the right direction. He needs to be gaining momentum through the rest of the season. If he just stays like he is now (winning home games by a goal, and scraping results/draws on the road) then it won't be an improvement. TFC need to start winning games much more comfortably. We need to start winning games like we won in Montreal, but more consistently. I would keep Mariner after this season if we are pretty much unbeaten at home for the rest of the year, and get at least a draw/win in 50% of our away games. That would be on the road to a good turn around from the start of the season, IMO.

T-boy
07-16-2012, 02:14 PM
This is the rub.

If Mariner promotes these players, he essentially makes himself obsolete. While some of us theorize that the Academy playing one way and the first team playing another will somehow magically result in a smooth transition to the first team these miss some major points.

1) The more players and coaches he brings in that can nurture the Klinsmann model, the less important he becomes
2) The players he needs to bring in to support his system are not the same ones that can excel under the Klinsmann model.
3) Beach Red makes a great point, attracting players here will be a challenge. Plata already left because he felt he couldn't develop under Mariner. If you are a US player, with USMNT aspirations, and the USMNT is playing 4-3-3, are you going to want to come here and wait for the transition to 4-3-3? If the transition is on again, are you going to want to lose again?
4) Let's assume that they decide in 2013 to play 4-3-3, are we purging the roster? Players that can play Mariner's system are on multi-year deals. A player like Dunfield is on the roster until his contract expires or he is waived. Either way, the flexibility to overhaul a roster over night is severely limited

For those reasons and many others, Academies and First Teams are learning the same system, at the same time. It's sort of being half-way pregnant. You are either on board or not. There really is no seamless middle ground

TFC aren't going to be able to promote enough players from the academy in ONE season to move straight to 4-3-3. It needs to be a gradual turn around, not an instant one. And, if academy players moved to the first team and played 4-4-2 for a season, if wouldn't harm them at all. They wouldn't "forget" overnight how to play 4-3-3 and the system. If we can promote 1 or 2 players from the academy per season, we are looking at fully integrating the academy and its system into the first team in around 5 or 6 season's. It's a long term vision, and won't happen overnight.

maxpower
07-16-2012, 02:24 PM
I have a desperately hard time with some people here who think that counter-attacking football only works on one off games. Chelsea were so unbelievably defensive during Mourinho's 3.5 years, yet, he won two championship and a few FA cups if i can recall correctly.

Beach_Red
07-16-2012, 02:34 PM
I fear you might be right about this team not being for me. I'd hoped to see the team build towards something worthwhile. Something impressive, that would serve as a blueprint for football in this city as a whole. A team that would inspire younger players to want to be a part of.



Well, I wouldn't worry about it too much, kids here still want to be part of the hockey team ;).

T-boy
07-16-2012, 02:39 PM
I have a desperately hard time with some people here who think that counter-attacking football only works on one off games. Chelsea were so unbelievably defensive during Mourinho's 3.5 years, yet, he won two championship and a few FA cups if i can recall correctly.

This is true actually. Mind you, I always used to watch any OTHER game than a Chelsea EPL game under Maurinho! You just KNEW that if they scored 1 or 2 goals, that would be it, shut down the opponent, and game over. It wasn't ever the prettiest thing to watch, but VERY effective! Mourinho got enough plaudits to get the (second?) biggest club coaching position in soccer from his Chelsea days! So, he must have dome something right!

Greatest Ripoff
07-16-2012, 03:08 PM
TFC aren't going to be able to promote enough players from the academy in ONE season to move straight to 4-3-3. It needs to be a gradual turn around, not an instant one. And, if academy players moved to the first team and played 4-4-2 for a season, if wouldn't harm them at all. They wouldn't "forget" overnight how to play 4-3-3 and the system. If we can promote 1 or 2 players from the academy per season, we are looking at fully integrating the academy and its system into the first team in around 5 or 6 season's. It's a long term vision, and won't happen overnight.

Ok, if Toronto were to sign Morris and Camargo where would they be played? If they were played out of position, how would that effect their development as a footballer? Is it not best to put young players in a situation where they are able to use the skills that have be taught and continue to develop. Would it not be a step back to put Camargo out wide on a flat midfield 4? And in the current set up there is no position for Morris to play.

And speaking of Mourinho's Chelsea, you are talking about a team with Drogba, Lampard, Robben, Makelele, Terry, Carvalho ect. Not exactly TFC.

"Mourinho played a 4-3-3 system that worked so well because most English teams were still fixated on playing 4-4-2, which Chelsea’s system worked brilliantly against."

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/01/25/teams-of-the-decade-13-chelsea-2004-06/

Huyton
07-16-2012, 03:16 PM
But if Mariner is able to show mid table results what good does that do for the future of the team and academy?

I expect the Academy to deliver better players. That is Rongens and DeKlerks resposibility. They still have their jobs, and they still have their mandate.

Given better players, if Mariner can't get the best out of them, then he should be fired. And he will be. He will be replaced by someone who's mandate will be to get more out of the team.

Greatest Ripoff
07-16-2012, 03:34 PM
I expect the Academy to deliver better players. That is Rongens and DeKlerks resposibility. They still have their jobs, and they still have their mandate.

Given better players, if Mariner can't get the best out of them, then he should be fired. And he will be. He will be replaced by someone who's mandate will be to get more out of the team.

How are the academy players going to help the team if they are played out of position and not used to their full potential?

T-boy
07-16-2012, 03:40 PM
Ok, if Toronto were to sign Morris and Camargo where would they be played? If they were played out of position, how would that effect their development as a footballer? Is it not best to put young players in a situation where they are able to use the skills that have be taught and continue to develop. Would it not be a step back to put Camargo out wide on a flat midfield 4? And in the current set up there is no position for Morris to play.

And speaking of Mourinho's Chelsea, you are talking about a team with Drogba, Lampard, Robben, Makelele, Terry, Carvalho ect. Not exactly TFC.

"Mourinho played a 4-3-3 system that worked so well because most English teams were still fixated on playing 4-4-2, which Chelsea’s system worked brilliantly against."

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/01/25/teams-of-the-decade-13-chelsea-2004-06/

Morris and Camargo aren't very good players if they can ONLY fit into one system their whole career! I'm sure, if they are quality, they could adapt to other systems until the first team is populated with players who can play the 4-3-3 system.

T-boy
07-16-2012, 03:41 PM
I expect the Academy to deliver better players. That is Rongens and DeKlerks resposibility. They still have their jobs, and they still have their mandate.

Given better players, if Mariner can't get the best out of them, then he should be fired. And he will be. He will be replaced by someone who's mandate will be to get more out of the team.

There are far too many people saying "he will be" this and "that WILL happen". We don't know.....we can't make assumptions about the future right now.

jazzy
07-16-2012, 03:48 PM
Yes there is a lot of middle ground. TFC will never play like Spain or Barcelona, but why can't Toronto play a similar to Swansea? They proved all you need is good coaching and players who can work hard without the ball and have confidence with the ball at their feet.

swansea really controlled Arsenal early in the season...(at their own game but must say they have a huge overall team commitment great coach but even so their players COULD handle that style unlike TO....and Winter simply didn't have the player back-up from mgr

ag futbol
07-16-2012, 03:49 PM
I just want to see that the team can be patient with prospects and bring them through to the first team. Not everyone is going to win a position... Our team now is proof of that, most of the prospects we signed are probably going to be released without ever making an impact.

I think we've all watched enough football to know there are teams out there that won't give young players a chance. Look at Preki, the guy was perfectly ready to throw Nicholas Lindsay in the garbage before he was fired. After Dasovic gave him a few games, it was clear he was probably the best wide player we had. And that's overly dramatic example, but it just goes to show you some old-school coaches in this league can hardly see a foot in front of their face when making player selection choices.

denime
07-16-2012, 05:49 PM
TFC aren't going to be able to promote enough players from the academy in ONE season to move straight to 4-3-3. It needs to be a gradual turn around, not an instant one. And, if academy players moved to the first team and played 4-4-2 for a season, if wouldn't harm them at all. They wouldn't "forget" overnight how to play 4-3-3 and the system. If we can promote 1 or 2 players from the academy per season, we are looking at fully integrating the academy and its system into the first team in around 5 or 6 season's. It's a long term vision, and won't happen overnight.
It does not work that way,you simply can not play 442 with 1st team and expect academy kids to be called up to play 442 after playing their whole development life in 433,there is 0 logic behind that,there is huge difference between responsibilities on each position.Those two systems a totally different and can't be mixed and match just like that,while academy kids are learning possession,1st team is playing "direct/Long Ball,you aether play it throughout your entire club or not,period.The system is based upon each player knowing the inns and out of his position,and when called up,the kid is suppose to play his position and not to learn and adapt to some other system.

Bayern FC :"The Bayern has restructured its Youth Division in 1995 and the junior team founded. In addition to the second team, which plays in the Regionalliga Süd in 2011/12, eleven youth teams, which are served by a total of 26 trainers belong to the junior team. From the D junior, the junior team plays a single game system that simplified can be described as 4-4-2."

http://www.fcbayern.telekom.de/de/mannschaften/junior/info/index.php

Makes me wonder why Bayern does not teach their kids 433 when 1st team traditionally plays 442,why is TFC FO smarter than any other club around the globe?
Why do you think TFC 3 stooges know more about this game than Franz Feckenbauer,Rummenigge, Karl-Heinz and Uli Hoenes who set their academy in 1995,or Rinus Michels and Johan Cruijf from Ajax FC?

Ajax FC is partly dependant on players from its own youth academy. The youth teams are trained in exactly the same way as the first team en these boys are therefore already accustomed to Ajax’s style of play.
Central within the club is the style of play (4-3-3), training, behaviour and house rules. Ajax strives to keep the way of playing football recognisable; attractive, offensive-minded, creative, fast, fair and preferably far away from the own goal on the opponents’ half.


This is true actually. Mind you, I always used to watch any OTHER game than a Chelsea EPL game under Maurinho! You just KNEW that if they scored 1 or 2 goals, that would be it, shut down the opponent, and game over. It wasn't ever the prettiest thing to watch, but VERY effective! Mourinho got enough plaudits to get the (second?) biggest club coaching position in soccer from his Chelsea days! So, he must have dome something right!
LOL,Mourinho played 4-3-3 with Chelsea.


Morris and Camargo aren't very good players if they can ONLY fit into one system their whole career! I'm sure, if they are quality, they could adapt to other systems until the first team is populated with players who can play the 4-3-3 system.
They are now better players than Dunefield was or will ever be,question is can they and play dumbed down version of 442 that Mariner is implementing,because one thing is for sure Mariner can not coach 433,not now not in the future,so why have him as head coach in the first place?


This is not for or against Mariner this is about morons running this club since 2007 .

T-boy
07-16-2012, 07:34 PM
LOL,Mourinho played 4-3-3 with Chelsea.




I never said he played any other formation, did I? The point I was making (and the other poster too) was that Mourinho was playing a VERY negative system when he was at Chelsea. He went for a quick goal and then parked the bus. I made the mistake of picking a couple of their strikers when Mourinho was at Chelsea on my fantasy league pool I (and make others) soon found out that it was pointless as their strikers would never score more than one goal a game. I think only Lampard ONCE got a hat-trick for Chelsea when Mourinho was there. He was very negative and didn't go all out attack. The formation he was playing is totally irrevant! I NEVER said they were playing 4-4-2 or any other formation, my comment was based on the STYLE of play Mourinho was using. Formation is NOT system or tactics, that seems to be mistaken a lot on this forum sometimes.

T-boy
07-16-2012, 07:36 PM
And also my point was that a GOOD player can play in ANY formation. I've learnt football, I can play personally. I played wing in a 4-4-2 as a school kid. I then played in a sunday team and played on the wing in 4-3-3. I could still play to the same level in 4-3-3! The principals I learnt in one system I could easily use in another. It would be a litte weird if a full back playing in 4-3-3 couldn't then play as a full back in 4-4-2! Ashley Cole can play in a 4-3-3 for Chelsea, AND play 4-4-2 for England, and looks a good full back in both teams!

T-boy
07-16-2012, 07:39 PM
Denime, if you ever want to meet at the pub before a TFC game and discuss systems and tactics, I'm always up for that. Sometimes you answer my posts and it sounds like you think I'm stupid or have NO idea about football. I may not be the most eloquant in my writing, but I do know my football. I KNOW what formation Mourinho played at Chelsea, and I know how footballers can adapt to systems. I'm not a complete thicko! I'm always up for a civilized pre game pint to talk sensibly about football.

denime
07-16-2012, 08:16 PM
Denime, if you ever want to meet at the pub before a TFC game and discuss systems and tactics, I'm always up for that. Sometimes you answer my posts and it sounds like you think I'm stupid or have NO idea about football. I may not be the most eloquant in my writing, but I do know my football. I KNOW what formation Mourinho played at Chelsea, and I know how footballers can adapt to systems. I'm not a complete thicko! I'm always up for a civilized pre game pint to talk sensibly about football.

Ok,stop right there,first of all I never thought you are stupid or don't know anything about football,sorry if it looked like that.

I know you know systems/formation and football in general,the point in my last post was that adopting one player at the time will never get us to possession 433 way of playing,not now or 5 years from now,as long Mariner and people who think like him are at TFC FO.

v00d00daddy
07-16-2012, 08:18 PM
And also my point was that a GOOD player can play in ANY formation. I've learnt football, I can play personally. I played wing in a 4-4-2 as a school kid. I then played in a sunday team and played on the wing in 4-3-3. I could still play to the same level in 4-3-3! The principals I learnt in one system I could easily use in another. It would be a litte weird if a full back playing in 4-3-3 couldn't then play as a full back in 4-4-2! Ashley Cole can play in a 4-3-3 for Chelsea, AND play 4-4-2 for England, and looks a good full back in both teams!

You do realise that you've argued that the 4-3-3 was too complicated for TFC players to execute but have just said that you're able to play it.

Which is it?

Too complicated for pros or are you that good?

And I know you'll argue that Winters 4-3-3 is too complicated...fine.

But our players are good enough to play possession based football (at least most of them...Dunfield excluded lol)

Thomas
07-16-2012, 09:08 PM
What isn't taken into account here is the fact big Danny is soaking up significant opposing resources focusing on him (whether he scores or not). This allows others a better chance to score.


but also interestingly, TFC have won the last two games without Koev's actually scoring any goals...and there have been 4 of them! And in fact, Koev's was only involved/assisted in one of those goals. So, out of the 3 games TFC have won under Mariner, Koev's has only scored goals in one of those games.

I would say, then, that its a number of TFC players have have been hitting form under Mariner, not just Koev's. Dunfield, Ecks, Morgan, Avila, and now Silva have all hit a good amount of form with Mariner. One player would be an anomoly, but a bunch of players is a pattern.

I love the tactical conversation, BUT....I think in the case right now, the improvement in results is down to good one-on-one man managemenet from Mariner, rather than any tactical genius. Mariner just knows how to motivate players (whereas Winter appeared to be useless at it!). Mariner seems to be able to get under-achieving players playing with much more confidence. His rhetoric is sometimes a little rediculous ("the best finisher in the modern era") - but it seems to work with players. His big hugs after substitutions just show how he is getting to know the players individually, giving them confidence. A confident team of players can play ANY formation and system and make it work. THAT is the main difference under Mariner compared to Winter. Winter had them playing a nice system with no confidence. Mariner has them playing a simple/basic/direct system with a bunch of confidence!

tfcocd
07-16-2012, 09:40 PM
It does not work that way,you simply can not play 442 with 1st team and expect academy kids to be called up to play 442 after playing their whole development life in 433,there is 0 logic behind that,there is huge difference between responsibilities on each position.Those two systems a totally different and can't be mixed and match just like that,while academy kids are learning possession,1st team is playing "direct/Long Ball,you aether play it throughout your entire club or not,period.The system is based upon each player knowing the inns and out of his position,and when called up,the kid is suppose to play his position and not to learn and adapt to some other system.

They are now better players than Dunefield was or will ever be,question is can they and play dumbed down version of 442 that Mariner is implementing,because one thing is for sure Mariner can not coach 433,not now not in the future,so why have him as head coach in the first place?

This is not for or against Mariner this is about morons running this club since 2007 .

No doubt it makes sense that one system should be consistent through the club. But when you are 1-9 you have to try something different! Mariner has implemented tighter defense, with more men behind the ball - 2 compact lines of four. Its low risk play at the back, when in doubt hoof it down the field - it mitigates so many problems that were plaguing the backline (a very young one as currently constituted). It doesn't mean these guys have forgot how to play it on the ground. You see flashes of it when they do possess the football and they are not playing direct to the strikers.

My question is why couldn't Mariner implement a more possession based game when he feels that he has the technical quality in the lineup to to do so? Has he said anything against possession based football or that he is against the formation being taught in the academy?

denime
07-16-2012, 10:23 PM
No doubt it makes sense that one system should be consistent through the club. But when you are 1-9 you have to try something different! Mariner has implemented tighter defense, with more men behind the ball - 2 compact lines of four. Its low risk play at the back, when in doubt hoof it down the field - it mitigates so many problems that were plaguing the backline (a very young one as currently constituted). It doesn't mean these guys have forgot how to play it on the ground. You see flashes of it when they do possess the football and they are not playing direct to the strikers.

My question is why couldn't Mariner implement a more possession based game when he feels that he has the technical quality in the lineup to to do so? Has he said anything against possession based football or that he is against the formation being taught in the academy?

It comes down to habit of booting the ball instead of passing it,why should defender take a risk of loosing the ball if he plays ground pass in order to keep possession,when he can simply hoof it and he is secure not to get shit from coach,and when coach encourages you to do it every time when under pressure,when are you going to start playing it,when you don't do it in a practice you wont do it at the game for sure.When one is punished for attempting to create, he will refrain from successfully creating in the future because they fear failure.

When you have ball possession in 30% every game,that's all you will see, flashes,because flashes happening when there is limited or no pressure,even you ,T-Boy and I would be able to do that.

New Liverpool coach Rogers on his possession style:

Brendan Rodgers of Swansea FC swears by 'Tiki-Taka' football and the recent all round appreciation for the way that Swansea play football has become of significant interest:
"I like to control games. I like to be responsible for our own destiny. If you are better than your opponent with the ball you have a 79 per cent chance of winning the game - for me it is quite logical. It doesn't matter how big or small you are, if you don't have the ball you can't score.

"My template for everything is organisation. With the ball you have to know the movement patterns, the rotation, the fluidity and positioning of the team. Then there's our defensive organisation...so if it is not going well we have a default mechanism which makes us hard to beat and we can pass our way into the game again. Rest with the ball. Then we'll build again." For Liverpool, a new set of fundamentals will need to be put into place; a move away from the over-reliance on direct football that maximises the quantity of goal-scoring opportunities rather than quality.(Rodgers 2012)


The variable of 'time' presents Liverpool with the biggest challenge. 'Tiki-Taka' football simply does not come about after one single season of change.Progress and longevity are the goals of Liverpool and Brendan Rodgers and it is this collaboration of ideologies that may well lead Brendan Rodgers and Liverpool back to the glory days of yesteryear.
Liverpool needs to restructure from the ground up and no man is better suited to become Liverpool's very own Pep Guardiola than Brendan Rodgers


Well, we started this restructure from the ground up 20 months ago and 2 months ago 3 stooges decided they know better and gave Mariner full time job to "tweak"(read overhaul) the team to old 4-4-2 system or any variation of this that requires wide wing play and balls being played over the midfield to the striker to knock the ball down to the midfield in a more advanced position on the field,aka hoofball.

Mariner did not say anything directly against possession,however his encouragement to boot the ball every time when under pressure is exact opposite of possession style of football,and regardless what academy does as long we have a coaching stuff that encourages boot,we will stay mediocre team at best,and this is my problem.

Canary10
07-17-2012, 08:41 AM
It comes down to habit of booting the ball instead of passing it,why should defender take a risk of loosing the ball if he plays ground pass in order to keep possession,when he can simply hoof it and he is secure not to get shit from coach,and when coach encourages you to do it every time when under pressure,when are you going to start playing it,when you don't do it in a practice you wont do it at the game for sure.When one is punished for attempting to create, he will refrain from successfully creating in the future because they fear failure.

When you have ball possession in 30% every game,that's all you will see, flashes,because flashes happening when there is limited or no pressure,even you ,T-Boy and I would be able to do that.

New Liverpool coach Rogers on his possession style:





Well, we started this restructure from the ground up 20 months ago and 2 months ago 3 stooges decided they know better and gave Mariner full time job to "tweak"(read overhaul) the team to old 4-4-2 system or any variation of this that requires wide wing play and balls being played over the midfield to the striker to knock the ball down to the midfield in a more advanced position on the field,aka hoofball.

Mariner did not say anything directly against possession,however his encouragement to boot the ball every time when under pressure is exact opposite of possession style of football,and regardless what academy does as long we have a coaching stuff that encourages boot,we will stay mediocre team at best,and this is my problem.

Fuck I loved the way Swansea played last year. And I can say that even being a Norwich supporter and the two clubs coming up at the same time. I said throughout the offseason that Swansea should be our model. No big names on that club, but all playing the same game. Leon Britton should have been in the England Euro linuep imo. Not sure how Rodgers will do at Liverpool - he'll probably get the same kind of reception Winter got here. People who don't have the patience to see through the growing pains he'll inevitably confront. But at least Swansea got a manager in Laudrup who'll continue playing that way.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 08:52 AM
Ok, so I don't believe, for a second, that Mariner's "prefered" style of football is "boot and run". I believe that he's told his defenders to knock the ball to safety, right now, as that's all he's had time to train them with.

It was extremely clear that during Winter's reign, his instructions to play short passes out of defense were causing the team massive issues week after week. Getting people like Iro to play short clean passes out of defence was awful to watch, and ALL the CB's we currrently have in the club don't have the ability to pick out short passes under pressure. Cann can't, Eckersley can't, Harden can't etc etc. The ONLY player we've played in defense that can play those short passes is Frings....and we all know that his BEST position is DM, and not CB.

So, given the VERY short time Mariner has had with the team, his first immediate change was to tell the defenders to "if in doubt, kick it out". Can anybody here blame Mariner for telling them to do this? The other option is to tell the defenders, who don't have the ability to pick out short passes, to continue to play those short passes, and keep getting the defence in trouble, and conceding a lot of goals through bad passing errors. I don't think that's feasable, personally. Until the point where we have two CB's who can actually play a pass, there is NO point in keeping Winter's short passing out of defence game. Mariner is correct in getting the defense to play direct until we have the personnel to play otherwise.

Mariner said himself that the players we have in the squad will dictate what he plays. So, we don't have any skillfully equiped CB's, so he's playing a long game. Playing a short game, like under Winter, would be football suicide. It didn't work for Winter, and it certainly wouldn't work with Mariner, not with Harden, Cann, Eckersley, and Henry as the ONLY option we have at centre back.

At the point where Mariner can sign two CB's with a passing ability, then he can change the style of play. THEN he will have the players to play a different game.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 09:06 AM
Ok,stop right there,first of all I never thought you are stupid or don't know anything about football,sorry if it looked like that.

I know you know systems/formation and football in general,the point in my last post was that adopting one player at the time will never get us to possession 433 way of playing,not now or 5 years from now,as long Mariner and people who think like him are at TFC FO.

It DOES take time though. You, and others on this forum, are comparing TFC with Ajax and Bayern. These are clubs with one hundred years or more of football tradition and coaching. You simply can't compare them with TFC with their 7 years of history. Ajax and Bayern didn't start playing short passing for over 70 or so years! How can we expect TFC to start playing Aron Winter's extremely complex system within a couple of seasons? It's just not feasable, and never was. (this is Klinsmann and Anselmi's fault, not Winters).

The skills the academy are currently learning - to pass and move, to pass into space, to play angle and triangles - these are all skills you can use in MANY systems. Also, a lot of people on this forum have already recognised that the benefit of Winter's 4-3-3, is that its flexible. A striker can move back to make 4-4-2, or a defender can move forward to create 3-4-3 etc etc. Winter's system is based on flexibility and movement. There is NO reason why the academy players, learning 4-3-3, can't play a season or two 4-4-2. There is no reason whatsoever. The skills and movement they are learning from De Klerk and Rongen won't be forgotten odernight playing in a different system.

Until the point where the first team squad (not just 11, but the whole squad) is FULL of technically gifted players, there is almost no point in playing Winter/De Klerk/Rongen's system. It will fail. Having 5 players who know the system from the academy, and then 6 players who don't know the system and haven't grown up with it, will also make it fail. The system needs to be played with complete intuition and be put into your psychy from a young age.

Any players who is 22 years plus, basically would have a hard time learning, from scratch, Winter's system. It isn't ingrained into their mind. So, getting these players to learn that system is going to be extremely difficult. TFC currently have a first team squad who know nothing, intuitively, about the system (and yes, it is a much more complicated system that just playing a 4-3-3 formation). A player can learn a new formation easily, but to learn an intuitive movement system needs training from youth to completely understand it, leave ande breathe it, and become part of your everyday game.

Getting the first team to play this 4-3-3 is going to take YEARS. Not overnight. Not this season, or even next. But YEARS. By the time we have enough players coming through the academy who intuitively know the system, will take 5 years or MORE. Until that time, the first team needs to play a more direct system, its as simple as that. You can't go "in between" and have half the team knowing the 4-3-3 and half not. It just won't work!

It took years to develop these systems in Europe, and it will take years to teach and develop them here. You simply cannot innorganically force MLS players to play systems that have taken years and years to develop.

Greatest Ripoff
07-17-2012, 09:07 AM
And if you look what Swansea did it wasn't done in a year or even with a single coach. They choose a direction to go and every time they brought in a new coach they made sure that he was going to further the team in that direction. They went from being a game away of being relegated out of the football league and into semi professional football to a mid table premiership side in about 10 years.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 09:10 AM
You do realise that you've argued that the 4-3-3 was too complicated for TFC players to execute but have just said that you're able to play it.

Which is it?

Too complicated for pros or are you that good?

And I know you'll argue that Winters 4-3-3 is too complicated...fine.

But our players are good enough to play possession based football (at least most of them...Dunfield excluded lol)

As I've said above - you need at LEAST 2 centre backs who can play a short pass out of defence. TFC don't have ANY (apart from Frings, who would be playing out of position). Unless you can play a short pass out of the CB positions, you basically can't play the system - it fails from the back. The whole premise of the system is based from back to front. You need to be able to make pass ONE out of defence to make it work. Toronto can't do this with their current squad. Therefore the whole system fails (as has been proven by the results under Winter!). So, its not just Dunfield, its a number of players. Toronto have TOO many players who can't play possession football, and starting with the CB's.

[NBF]
07-17-2012, 09:13 AM
Winter:
Team.........Poss.....Venue..Result
Seattle .....48.1..... A..... L
San Jose ....59.6..... H..... L
Columbus ....54.9..... H..... L
Montreal ....41.6..... A..... L
Chivas ......47.0..... H..... L
Chicago .....56.2..... H..... L
Salt Lake ...43.1..... A..... L
DC ..........46.1..... H..... L
DC ..........40.6..... A..... L
Philly ......41.6..... H..... W
Average .....47.9.... 6H,4A.. 0.3ppg

Mariner:
Team.........Poss.....Venue..Result
Kansas ......39.7..... A......L
Houston .....36.7..... A......T
New England .36.5..... H..... T
Montreal ....36.4..... A..... W
New York.....44.6..... H..... T
Dallas ......48........A..... T
Philly ......38.1..... A..... L
Vancouver ...40.5..... H..... W
New England .34.6..... A..... W
Average .....38.5.... 3H,6A.. 1.4 ppg


So...it's not whether you have the ball or not, it's what you do with it that counts.

Yes, but no, Mariner's 4-4-2 is only working because he paired Koevermans and Johnson together which pretty much opened things up for Koevermans to play 1 vs 1 against inferior centre backs. Hence the rise in goals, but not in possesion. This team still can't hold a lead, but it can score goals with a pair of tall strikers like Koevermans and Johnson.

Now with Koevermans injured, I think we will see a little more 4-4-1-1 with Silva playing behind Johnson and Mariner might be wishing he had Plata and DeGuzman on the team. If Olof Mellberg can be signed for less than DP money, giving up DeGuzman might have a horrible piece of business.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 09:15 AM
And if you look what Swansea did it wasn't done in a year or even with a single coach. They choose a direction to go and every time they brought in a new coach they made sure that he was going to further the team in that direction. They went from being a game away of being relegated out of the football league and into semi professional football to a mid table premiership side in about 10 years.

Correct it did take ten years plus. I saw Swansea play Oxford a couple of times in League 2!

The difference betwen Swansea and TFC though is down to the base of players they have. Most European based players have a much better understand of pass-movement and numbering systems. The MAJORITY of MLS players don't. Even if we got another coach to still play the 4-3-3 with the current first team, I still think it will fail as most players haven't grown up with that type of system. Even the players we DO have right now from Europe (Ecks, Lambe) aren't the type of players to play a possession game. You can't innorganically create something where there are no roots of that system. That's basically the argument for me. Until the point where TFC have anchored down the roots of the system, you can't introduce it to the first team. And these roots are going to take a few years to bed down.

Whoop
07-17-2012, 09:15 AM
I still maintain Mariner's success coincides with the improvement in form of Koevermans.

Let's see how successful Mariner is without Koevermans.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 09:16 AM
;1512659']Yes, but no, Mariner's 4-4-2 is only working because he paired Koevermans and Johnson together which pretty much opened things up for Koevermans to play 1 vs 1 against inferior centre backs. Hence the rise in goals, but not in possesion. This team still can't hold a lead, but it can score goals with a pair of tall strikers like Koevermans and Johnson.

Now with Koevermans injured, I think we will see a little more 4-4-1-1 with Silva playing behind Johnson and Mariner might be wishing he had Plata and DeGuzman on the team. If Olof Mellberg can be signed for less than DP money, giving up DeGuzman might have a horrible piece of business.

In hindsight, totally agreed. But there is no way that anybody/Mariner could have predicted Koev's season ending injury :(

Greatest Ripoff
07-17-2012, 09:17 AM
It DOES take time though. You, and others on this forum, are comparing TFC with Ajax and Bayern.


Getting the first team to play this 4-3-3 is going to take YEARS. Not overnight. Not this season, or even next.

I am comparing them with Swansea. TFC definitely had the resources to compete with Swansea (pre premiership).

And you are correct, it will take years. So why not start now? Bring in a coach who is capable to continue the work instead of going backwards and taking even longer to implement. What is to be gained from this season other than to keep a few seat holders happy with some meaningless wins? Why not play some kids and give them experience? What is the clubs plan for Makubuya and Cordon? Do they know if they can compete week in and week out in MLS? How does sticking to the same 11 and winning a few more games that wont get the club anything but a worse draft pick help to move the team forward?

T-boy
07-17-2012, 09:17 AM
I still maintain Mariner's success coincides with the improvement in form of Koevermans.

Let's see how successful Mariner is without Koevermans.

I was thinking about that too. I guess those who are correlating Mariner's success to Koev's, will now see if there argument is correct or not :)

denime
07-17-2012, 09:18 AM
And if you look what Swansea did it wasn't done in a year or even with a single coach. They choose a direction to go and every time they brought in a new coach they made sure that he was going to further the team in that direction. They went from being a game away of being relegated out of the football league and into semi professional football to a mid table premiership side in about 10 years.

THIS !!

And we did the opposite,I don't understand how someone can think that playing 442 in the near future will get us to 433,is there some kind of button to push and teams switch from 442 to 433 overnight?

Sorry I don't see the logic behind it.

Canary10
07-17-2012, 09:19 AM
And if you look what Swansea did it wasn't done in a year or even with a single coach. They choose a direction to go and every time they brought in a new coach they made sure that he was going to further the team in that direction. They went from being a game away of being relegated out of the football league and into semi professional football to a mid table premiership side in about 10 years.

Agreed. That's why dumping it now is a bad idea.

Ha Denime, you beat me to it.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 09:27 AM
THIS !!

And we did the opposite,I don't understand how someone can think that playing 442 in the near future will get us to 433,is there some kind of button to push and teams switch from 442 to 433 overnight?

Sorry I don't see the logic behind it.

TFC need a squad full of players who can pass and move. How many do we currently have who are this type of players? Frings. Koevs (not any more, unfortunately). We don't have any other player who can intuitively play this type of system. So, playing it right now is completely pointless (unless we want to continue to break MLS records for the worst x, y, and z). To keep fairly decent players in the squad, we NEED to get some kind of short term success. You can't just continue to lose week after week, seaeson after season, until enough of the first team can play pass and move. How many of us would actually EVER go to a game if we were the worst team in the MLS for the next 3 or 4 season? None! It would be an empty stadium and then we would have no football as there would be no business.

You HAVE to have some kind of short term success.

Secondly, there is NO reason why the first team can't begin to play more passing style in a 4-4-2, or 4-5-1, or any other formation. As I keep saying, formation and style are two very different things. You shouldn't be confusing the two. A team playing 4-4-2 can play just as much possession style as a team playing 4-3-3. There is no reason why a team can't start to gradually start playing a more possession based game in time. Why does there have to be an IMMEDIATE transition? Winter's team proved that trying to IMMEDIATELY play the system just doesn't work! And it certainly won't ever work like that in the MLS! there HAS to be a gradual transition - there is no other option really.

Somebody else already said this on this thread - but by the time we have enough academy players graduating to the first team, Mariner will be long retired from the game anyways.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 09:28 AM
Agreed. That's why dumping it now is a bad idea.

Ha Denime, you beat me to it.

If the academy are still using the system, how does that mean that we are dumping the system? Do you REALLY want people like Harden and Cann to continue to play short passes out of the defence...to the opponents striker?! It's embarrassing to watch over and over again! Mariner doesn't have much of a choice, given the players he has, to play a more direct style!

Canary10
07-17-2012, 09:29 AM
TFC need a squad full of players who can pass and move. How many do we currently have who are this type of players? Frings. Koevs (not any more, unfortunately). We don't have any other player who can intuitively play this type of system. So, playing it right now is completely pointless (unless we want to continue to break MLS records for the worst x, y, and z). To keep fairly decent players in the squad, we NEED to get some kind of short term success. You can't just continue to lose week after week, seaeson after season, until enough of the first team can play pass and move. How many of us would actually EVER go to a game if we were the worst team in the MLS for the next 3 or 4 season? None! It would be an empty stadium and then we would have no football as there would be no business.

You HAVE to have some kind of short term success.

Secondly, there is NO reason why the first team can't begin to play more passing style in a 4-4-2, or 4-5-1, or any other formation. As I keep saying, formation and style are two very different things. You shouldn't be confusing the two. A team playing 4-4-2 can play just as much possession style as a team playing 4-3-3. There is no reason why a team can't start to gradually start playing a more possession based game in time. Why does there have to be an IMMEDIATE transition? Winter's team proved that trying to IMMEDIATELY play the system just doesn't work! And it certainly won't ever work like that in the MLS! there HAS to be a gradual transition - there is no other option really.

Somebody else already said this on this thread - but by the time we have enough academy players graduating to the first team, Mariner will be long retired from the game anyways.

The on trait almost all successful clubs share is a philosophy about how they are going to play that they stick to. It doesn't have to be "play like Barcelona" either. If you don't know how you're going to play, you won't develop the right players through your academey, you won't know what your real needs are in acquiring players, and indeed you won't know what kind of manager you need.

Canary10
07-17-2012, 09:35 AM
The problem I have with your argument is 4-4-2 isn't even a good use of the players we have (or had until last week). For example, we only had one striker: Koevermans. So what do we do? We implement a 2 striker system. We had a few very good wingers in Plata, Johnson, Lambe, Soolsma. So what do we do? We get rid of the winger position. Now two of those players have left, Johnson hasn't found a ball he can't miss a one third open goal with, and Lambe looks a shell of who how he played previously. We had two decent central attacking midfielders in Silva and Avila. Let's put them out on the left.

But at least in interrupting our build to a 4-3-3 we're now a mid table quality team, right?

T-boy
07-17-2012, 09:36 AM
The on trait almost all successful clubs share is a philosophy about how they are going to play that they stick to. It doesn't have to be "play like Barcelona" either. If you don't know how you're going to play, you won't develop the right players through your academey, you won't know what your real needs are in acquiring players, and indeed you won't know what kind of manager you need.

That's all fine IF you have a base of players that can play your system. The issue with TFC is that they play in the MLS. They are STUCK with the rules of the league. The majority of players in the league are acquired through the draft at one time or another. And you HAVE to have a percentage of North American/domestic players.

You can't compare TFC with Swansea either. Swansea can chose from ANY player in the world to come play for them. TFC can't - they are VERY restricted by the MLS rules.

You could create the club wide system if you are unrestricted. But TFC are under so many league restrictions, that they can't just "go out and find players to play the system". It just doesn't work like that in the MLS.

I'm SURE there are players within the MLS who CAN play this 4-3-3. But how does TFC get them? You can't BUY them! You have to try and trade for them. That's VERY difficult to do in the MLS, as we all know. THAT is why the 4-3-3 system is currently failing. Compaing ANY MLS team to any other club in the world is just wrong. No other league has the restriction that the MLS has.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 09:40 AM
The problem I have with your argument is 4-4-2 isn't even a good use of the players we have (or had until last week). For example, we only had one striker: Koevermans. So what do we do? We implement a 2 striker system. We had a few very good wingers in Plata, Johnson, Lambe, Soolsma. So what do we do? We get rid of the winger position. Now two of those players have left, Johnson hasn't found a ball he can't miss a one third open goal with, and Lambe looks a shell of who how he played previously. We had two decent central attacking midfielders in Silva and Avila. Let's put them out on the left.

But at least in interrupting our build to a 4-3-3 we're now a mid table quality team, right?

It's funny how we see things differently! I personally think Lambe is playing BETTER now than earlier in the season! Plus, he obviously had some personal issues to deal with, so we are not sure how that was weffective his game for a while. I also think Avila is better in a wide position than in the centre!

Plus I don't believe that shipping out Soolsma and Plata were purely for footballing reasons. Plata clearly had some push and pull form his home club, plus we don't know what was going on with Soolsma off the field.

Pookie
07-17-2012, 09:44 AM
You can't just continue to lose week after week, seaeson after season, until enough of the first team can play pass and move. How many of us would actually EVER go to a game if we were the worst team in the MLS for the next 3 or 4 season? None! It would be an empty stadium and then we would have no football as there would be no business.

You HAVE to have some kind of short term success.


Not true. TFC built a profitable business model based on an average attendance base of 14,000 fans and 2007 prices. There is no need to HAVE short term success unless your goal is to maintain 18,000-19,000 attendance figures at current prices.

If TFC went out and lost every game this year but had a vision folks could believe in and reset prices to 2007 levels... you really think attendance would drop off below 14,000?

Price is a major function of why the wait list has dried up. Tickets that come up are usually Red or Dark Grey. When offered Club seats as your window into season tickets, who is ready to drop $3000+ on a pair? For the single game buyer, the family of 4 wanting to get out to a game, $80 per ticket is ridiculous.

Canary10
07-17-2012, 09:45 AM
It's funny how we see things differently! I personally think Lambe is playing BETTER now than earlier in the season! Plus, he obviously had some personal issues to deal with, so we are not sure how that was weffective his game for a while. I also think Avila is better in a wide position than in the centre!

Plus I don't believe that shipping out Soolsma and Plata were purely for footballing reasons. Plata clearly had some push and pull form his home club, plus we don't know what was going on with Soolsma off the field.

So you think it's a coincidence that two of the players that had their positions eliminated are now gone? I've got property for you...I've seen flashes of decency from Lambe (especially on that goal Saturday), so I'll let you have that one. But Avila? He gets so few touches on the ball you don't even know he exists in the Opta stats. He's been lost for the past 9 games.

v00d00daddy
07-17-2012, 09:55 AM
If the academy are still using the system, how does that mean that we are dumping the system? Do you REALLY want people like Harden and Cann to continue to play short passes out of the defence...to the opponents striker?! It's embarrassing to watch over and over again! Mariner doesn't have much of a choice, given the players he has, to play a more direct style!


Maybe TFC could have acquired players that can play a possession based game.

Oh that's right....the man charged with that failed....and then was promoted to head coach.

You see the frustration that those of us who want a possession based team are feeling when it comes to Mariner and his style of play?

And ANY footballer that can't pass and move in to space should find another job because that's what the game is now. Some would argue it's always been that way.

I think almost every player can play a possession based game. It just takes time.

Over time, with a better suited coach, the team could have continued to build and improve. Some would even argue that Winter had softened his rigid ways and was beginning to see better results. But that's a moot point.

Now we're left trying to figure out how this team can go from Mariner and hoof ball to another coach and a possession based style.

Whoop
07-17-2012, 10:05 AM
Well Mariner can always go back to New England...

Oh wait, even the Revs supporters don't want him and his style of play.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 10:08 AM
Maybe TFC could have acquired players that can play a possession based game.

Oh that's right....the man charged with that failed....and then was promoted to head coach.

You see the frustration that those of us who want a possession based team are feeling when it comes to Mariner and his style of play?

And ANY footballer that can't pass and move in to space should find another job because that's what the game is now. Some would argue it's always been that way.

I think almost every player can play a possession based game. It just takes time.

Over time, with a better suited coach, the team could have continued to build and improve. Some would even argue that Winter had softened his rigid ways and was beginning to see better results. But that's a moot point.

Now we're left trying to figure out how this team can go from Mariner and hoof ball to another coach and a possession based style.

You are correct that if Winter was more flexible and took a middle-of-the-road approach with his new players, he would have had more success, for sure.

I Still don't see Mariner's game as hoofball though! It's not like he's told his players to kick the ball in any old direction and chase it and "maybe" it will go in the right direction. Mariner's team are playing a much more complicated game than that. You are oversimplifying it. Mariner has expanded the field and is playing down the wings much more than Winter did. With Winter, Plata and Soolsma would often come inside, whereas under Mariner the ball is going outside to the full backs to attack and put in crosses. That isn't hoofball and I'm really not sure why some people are seeing it that way? Have ANY of the goals we have scored been "hoofball"? Nope! They have mostly been from crosses after the full back has been played in with a through ball behind the full back. There's no hoofball there, as far as I can see.

The one big different under Mariner is that he's told his defenders to stop playing short passes and stop making mistakes and passing to the opponent. That's a good thing, and one of the reason's why we've had success under Mariner and not under Winter this season (in the league). If Winter had told Iro to sky the ball every time he had it last season, TFC might have won a few more games!

T-boy
07-17-2012, 10:12 AM
So you think it's a coincidence that two of the players that had their positions eliminated are now gone? I've got property for you...I've seen flashes of decency from Lambe (especially on that goal Saturday), so I'll let you have that one. But Avila? He gets so few touches on the ball you don't even know he exists in the Opta stats. He's been lost for the past 9 games.

How about those two goals he set up for Koev's? He has at least two assists under Mariner. Avila's off the ball movement is one of the reason that Koev's has scored so many goals lately too.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 10:17 AM
This is an interesting take on all this:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/07/02/toronto_fc_value_of_the_cross_fletcher_blog/

I'm sure some of you have read it already. Interesting that the STATS say thet under Mariner there have been LESS crosses, but a much higher success rate. (I think that's down to having two strikers tho, much more to aim at as a crosser).

denime
07-17-2012, 10:24 AM
TFC need a squad full of players who can pass and move. How many do we currently have who are this type of players? Frings. Koevs (not any more, unfortunately). We don't have any other player who can intuitively play this type of system. So, playing it right now is completely pointless (unless we want to continue to break MLS records for the worst x, y, and z). To keep fairly decent players in the squad, we NEED to get some kind of short term success. You can't just continue to lose week after week, seaeson after season, until enough of the first team can play pass and move. How many of us would actually EVER go to a game if we were the worst team in the MLS for the next 3 or 4 season? None! It would be an empty stadium and then we would have no football as there would be no business.

You HAVE to have some kind of short term success.

Secondly, there is NO reason why the first team can't begin to play more passing style in a 4-4-2, or 4-5-1, or any other formation. As I keep saying, formation and style are two very different things. You shouldn't be confusing the two. A team playing 4-4-2 can play just as much possession style as a team playing 4-3-3. There is no reason why a team can't start to gradually start playing a more possession based game in time. Why does there have to be an IMMEDIATE transition? Winter's team proved that trying to IMMEDIATELY play the system just doesn't work! And it certainly won't ever work like that in the MLS! there HAS to be a gradual transition - there is no other option really.

Somebody else already said this on this thread - but by the time we have enough academy players graduating to the first team, Mariner will be long retired from the game anyways.

How many do we currently have who are this type of players?
Why did Mariner released the players who actually can pass,Plata,Soolsma,heck even JDG?

How many of us would actually EVER go to a game if we were the worst team in the MLS for the next 3 or 4 season?
We are the worst team in MLS since 2007 and BMO is still full,people were ready to suffer for another year or two because of long term success.

there is NO reason why the first team can't begin to play more passing style in a 4-4-2, or 4-5-1, or any other formation.
There is ONE reason,it's called Mariner,he does not believe in that and he can't coach the same,that's why we are back to square one,new coach,new system,new players,total overhaul and mediocre results.

Canary10
07-17-2012, 10:28 AM
How about those two goals he set up for Koev's? He has at least two assists under Mariner. Avila's off the ball movement is one of the reason that Koev's has scored so many goals lately too.

The Dallas one was a scramble in the box that happened to fall to him. He had 19 touches on the ball that game.

Beach_Red
07-17-2012, 10:30 AM
THIS !!

And we did the opposite,I don't understand how someone can think that playing 442 in the near future will get us to 433,is there some kind of button to push and teams switch from 442 to 433 overnight?

Sorry I don't see the logic behind it.

Yeah, I would really like to hear what the arguments were that led to this decision and what the actual plan is going forward (I mean what it really is, not what the PR department says).

I wonder if TFC has ever done any kind of real evaluation of the player pool they have to draw from? We know that a majority of the players on the roster have to be from North America so we can get some sense of what's coming in the next couple of years (the different player pool seems like a significant difference between what TFC can do and what English teams can do) and by now TFC should have made some good connections in the rest of CONCACAF at least.

It sounded good to have a plan and not just grabbing whatever player would agree to a contract with TFC, it would be interesting to know how far from that they've really gone.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 10:32 AM
How many do we currently have who are this type of players?
Why did Mariner released the players who actually can pass,Plata,Soolsma,heck even JDG?

How many of us would actually EVER go to a game if we were the worst team in the MLS for the next 3 or 4 season?
We are the worst team in MLS since 2007 and BMO is still full,people were ready to suffer for another year or two because of long term success.

there is NO reason why the first team can't begin to play more passing style in a 4-4-2, or 4-5-1, or any other formation.
There is ONE reason,it's called Mariner,he does not believe in that and he can't coach the same,that's why we are back to square one,new coach,new system,new players,total overhaul and mediocre results.

1. Plata wasn't a passing player. He was a dribbler and that was about it. Soolsma, ok he was a passer. JDG wasn't, and he never proved that he could pass in any game, under any TFC coach. His passing was abysmal at TFC from the day he signed for the club!

2. TFC have exhausted their season ticket waiting list, haven't they? They may have had people clambring for tickets until this season, but will they now? How long is that mystical waiting list now?

3. Has Mariner EVER said that "he doesn't believe in passing"? Can you tell me where he is quoted as saying that? And where is the evidence that he can't coach passing or a passing style? All he has done is simplified a game for a bunch of players who were low on confidence and low on ability! That doesn't prove anything, and definitely doesn't prove that he "doesn't believe in a passing game". It just proves, so far, that he can get a bunch of under performing players....performing better! There is NO evidence to suggest that he can't play a passing game. That's a big assumption on your behalf. (its also an assumption of my behalf that he CAN play it....but I don't assume the future, I only say what I currently see is happening).

T-boy
07-17-2012, 10:34 AM
The Dallas one was a scramble in the box that happened to fall to him. He had 19 touches on the ball that game.

Stats really only tell you have the story in football. Avila's pressing game and off the ball movement isn't told in stats. Avila has been a very present player in the games under Mariner, and his influence pressing in midield is huge. The goal from the cross I was talking about was away in Montreal - that wasn't a scramble. Avila moved off the ball and there was a through ball to him, and he crossed it to Koev's to slot home. Good movement from Avila. He created that goal.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 10:36 AM
Yeah, I would really like to hear what the arguments were that led to this decision and what the actual plan is going forward (I mean what it really is, not what the PR department says).

I wonder if TFC has ever done any kind of real evaluation of the player pool they have to draw from? We know that a majority of the players on the roster have to be from North America so we can get some sense of what's coming in the next couple of years (the different player pool seems like a significant difference between what TFC can do and what English teams can do) and by now TFC should have made some good connections in the rest of CONCACAF at least.

It sounded good to have a plan and not just grabbing whatever player would agree to a contract with TFC, it would be interesting to know how far from that they've really gone.

With the limitation of the MLS and its roster rules, probably not very far at all. The MLS has a pool of very average players, and then a handful who are good players. It's going to be tough for TFC, in any length of time, to get the players they need for the 4-3-3 system. That's why the academy is ESSENTIAL in the future of TFC. You simply can't trade and get players through the draft who are good enough to play this system.

Beach_Red
07-17-2012, 10:37 AM
Maybe TFC could have acquired players that can play a possession based game.

Oh that's right....the man charged with that failed....and then was promoted to head coach.

You see the frustration that those of us who want a possession based team are feeling when it comes to Mariner and his style of play?




TFC has always had poor player aquisition, that's not a new frustration for us. Since the very first season (off season, really) we've watched every other team in MLS sign players while we scrambled (well, essentially we handed all player aquisition over to a single agency - they repped our GM, our coaching staff and most of the first players to sign here). I don't know if other teams spend more on scouting or what it is, but TFC has always seemed to think player aquisition is as easy as ordering a pizza.

Canary10
07-17-2012, 10:37 AM
Stats really only tell you have the story in football. Avila's pressing game and off the ball movement isn't told in stats. Avila has been a very present player in the games under Mariner, and his influence pressing in midield is huge. The goal from the cross I was talking about was away in Montreal - that wasn't a scramble. Avila moved off the ball and there was a through ball to him, and he crossed it to Koev's to slot home. Good movement from Avila. He created that goal.

You're thinking Houston I think. That was a great ball and a great run from him. Of course, he had drifted into the middle on that one where he liked to play - and look what you get. On the wing he's in the wilderness. No involvement whatsoever.

He won 2 tackles in that game btw.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 10:56 AM
You're thinking Houston I think. That was a great ball and a great run from him. Of course, he had drifted into the middle on that one where he liked to play - and look what you get. On the wing he's in the wilderness. No involvement whatsoever.

He won 2 tackles in that game btw.

Again, you're looking at stats. Stats really don't paint the full picture of every footballers game. Avila is the best pressing midielder we have at the club. He's better than Frings and Dunfield, for sure. Like stats would never paint the full picture of a player like Chad Barrett. Barrett pressed backwards and that was his game. He wasn't a passer, or much of a finisher. But he pressed and harried defenders into mistakes. You can't get that from stats.

denime
07-17-2012, 10:58 AM
1. Plata wasn't a passing player. He was a dribbler and that was about it. Soolsma, ok he was a passer. JDG wasn't, and he never proved that he could pass in any game, under any TFC coach. His passing was abysmal at TFC from the day he signed for the club!


2. TFC have exhausted their season ticket waiting list, haven't they? They may have had people clambring for tickets until this season, but will they now? How long is that mystical waiting list now?

3. Has Mariner EVER said that "he doesn't believe in passing"? Can you tell me where he is quoted as saying that? And where is the evidence that he can't coach passing or a passing style? All he has done is simplified a game for a bunch of players who were low on confidence and low on ability! That doesn't prove anything, and definitely doesn't prove that he "doesn't believe in a passing game". It just proves, so far, that he can get a bunch of under performing players....performing better! There is NO evidence to suggest that he can't play a passing game. That's a big assumption on your behalf. (its also an assumption of my behalf that he CAN play it....but I don't assume the future, I only say what I currently see is happening).

Plata was a player who can receive,control and pass the ball,something Dunfield is struggling on any given day.

Waiting list was BS from day one,and as far I know TFC sold more ST this year because they opened North stands for sale,so while team underperformed under Winter in 2011 more people decide to buy ST,how come?Maybe the style that TFC tried to play and implement,results was not the reason for sure.

There is a plenty of evidence that he does not want to coach a passing game,first one is boot when under pressure b,second is 37% of ball possession per game,what else do you need?

and when you are already so confident that our players can not pass the ball when they are told too,like under Winter how many goals did we get scored against when the pass was intercepted,most of the goals were counter attacks or individual brain farts at free kicks or corner kicks,oh and the first goal in Montreal when the ball bounced away from Dunefiled leg like it hit the post.

why don't you go to NER forum and read what they think about their former assistant coach Mariner,and would they like to have him back,even now after we won in Boston.

Canary10
07-17-2012, 11:09 AM
Again, you're looking at stats. Stats really don't paint the full picture of every footballers game. Avila is the best pressing midielder we have at the club. He's better than Frings and Dunfield, for sure. Like stats would never paint the full picture of a player like Chad Barrett. Barrett pressed backwards and that was his game. He wasn't a passer, or much of a finisher. But he pressed and harried defenders into mistakes. You can't get that from stats.

He's pressing and harrying them through his 2 tackles? Maybe Avila is like me - since my knee injury, I can barely tackle any more. Instead I just try to get in people's way. Works a bit. Well sorta. I'm sure that's what he's doing.

Avila is probably the most creative midfielder we have at the club. When he has the ball. Which he doesn't get playing out wide. Stats support it.

v00d00daddy
07-17-2012, 11:22 AM
Again, you're looking at stats. Stats really don't paint the full picture of every footballers game. Avila is the best pressing midielder we have at the club. He's better than Frings and Dunfield, for sure. Like stats would never paint the full picture of a player like Chad Barrett. Barrett pressed backwards and that was his game. He wasn't a passer, or much of a finisher. But he pressed and harried defenders into mistakes. You can't get that from stats.

I agree with you in terms of noticing things like pressing opponents into mistakes and that it doesn't show up on the stats sheet.

It's one of the things that JDG is great at. Pushing players into spots on the field that force them to make difficult plays.

It's one of the few things I loved about his game.

brad
07-17-2012, 11:35 AM
Again, you're looking at stats. Stats really don't paint the full picture of every footballers game. Avila is the best pressing midielder we have at the club. He's better than Frings and Dunfield, for sure. Like stats would never paint the full picture of a player like Chad Barrett. Barrett pressed backwards and that was his game. He wasn't a passer, or much of a finisher. But he pressed and harried defenders into mistakes. You can't get that from stats.

Sure you can - but not from the ones that we have. With the full ProZone stuff they have, you will be able to.

brad
07-17-2012, 11:39 AM
He's pressing and harrying them through his 2 tackles? Maybe Avila is like me - since my knee injury, I can barely tackle any more. Instead I just try to get in people's way. Works a bit. Well sorta. I'm sure that's what he's doing.

Avila is probably the most creative midfielder we have at the club. When he has the ball. Which he doesn't get playing out wide. Stats support it.

2 tackles isn't that bad for a midfielder actually. I read a statistical breakdown of Carrick, Barry and Parker from last years EPL season. They were 3 of the best in the league statistically at recovering possession and they all averaged under 4 tackles per game (article is here if you want http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/statszone/archive/2012/05/16/why-michael-carrick-should-start-for-england-this-summer.aspx)

Whoop
07-17-2012, 11:45 AM
Stats Zone is awesome.

Ageroo
07-17-2012, 11:57 AM
1. Plata wasn't a passing player. He was a dribbler and that was about it. Soolsma, ok he was a passer. JDG wasn't, and he never proved that he could pass in any game, under any TFC coach. His passing was abysmal at TFC from the day he signed for the club!

Again...you are making a lot of statments without any real reference to any solid proof other than your own opinion. I am not saying that you aren't correct, but at least back it up with some sort of stats.

Go through the OPTA stats chalkboard of TFC matches before you make assumptions based on what you are seeing. Obviously every game is different and players have off and on games..... As does every player...but to "simply state" JDG didn't pass or isn't good at it does not prove anything unless you back it up with some sort of statistics.

JDG OPTA stats under Mariner:
Vancouver game: 12 successful - 7 unsuccessful - 60 min played - 63.1% accuracy
Philly game: 12 successful - 4 unsuccessful - 45 min played - 75% accuracy
Dallas game: 11 successful - 1 unsuccessful - 9 min played - 91.6 % accuracy
New York game: 6 successful - 3 unsuccessful - 10 min played - 66.6 % accuracy
Montreal game: 17 successful - 5 unsuccessful - 57 min played - 77.2 % accuracy
New England game: 24 successful - 9 unsuccessful - 82 min played - 72 % accuracy
Houston game: 20 successful - 10 unsuccessful - 81 min played - 66.6 % accuracy
KC game: 7 successful - 2 unsuccessful - 28 min played - 77.7 % accuracy

So to sum it up under Mariner(who I think JDG played worse under) his overall PASSING stats were as follows:
109 successful passes - 41 unsuccessful - 372 minutes played(out of a possible 720 minutes total) - 72.6 % accuracy

Hardly the statistics of someone who can't pass or never could pass....and again these are under Mariner who I believe JDG played worse and way less minutes.

If you go deep enough you can find anything....in a lot of cases as well he was a lot better and distributed the ball more and more successfully than Dunfield. And as I said...some games his percentage was good and sometimes it was bad...but if you analyze every player on this team you'll probably see the same things.

I understand it was a numbers game and that is why he is gone....but for you to state he doesn't pass isn't correct. His numbers under Mariner are decent...considering he never played 90 minutes.

I suggest do a little digging before you make sweeping statements about a statistical category that is actually out there to be measured. Stats are a wonderful thing.... :)

Pookie
07-17-2012, 12:06 PM
^ and that would seemingly suggest that under Mariner, JDG was an above average passer relative to the team's passing accuracy under him.

Ageroo
07-17-2012, 12:11 PM
^ and that would seemingly suggest that under Mariner, JDG was an above average passer relative to the team's passing accuracy under him.

I know I am in the limited minority of JDG fans here...so my judgement is clouded on him...but like you said pookie. Numbers don't lie. :)

Pookie
07-17-2012, 12:16 PM
If nothing else, he throws a pretty good boat party

Section 117
07-17-2012, 12:29 PM
What scares me with this new style of play is we just keep giving the possession back to the other team. It is one thing to do this against MLS teams which won't punish them on a consistent basis. On the other hand when we play santos in CCL I think we will get our asses handed to us.

I hope this is just a short term fix, but if mariner continues for the longer term I feel we will be watching hoof ball for the forseable future and to me that is quite upsetting

ag futbol
07-17-2012, 12:45 PM
What's this about Plata not being a passing player? Is it because he's willing to take on defenders?

I think that's a major problem with the way many people see the game, particularly in North America. You have players who are sitting in tons of space and they are shit scared to use it to advance the ball or run at defenders because it's been drilled into their head that doing so is selfish. Crazy concept, but you can take on a man and still be an effective passer of the ball.

Why is it that the most successful countries in World football put a premium on individual play, but people continue to discount it? Thou shalt be average or be labeled "selfish" or a "flair player"

denime
07-17-2012, 12:54 PM
What's this about Plata not being a passing player? Is it because he's willing to take on defenders?

I think that's a major problem with the way many people see the game, particularly in North America. You have players who are sitting in tons of space and they are shit scared to use it to advance the ball or run at defenders because it's been drilled into their head that doing so is selfish. Crazy concept, but you can take on a man and still be an effective passer of the ball.

Why is it that the most successful countries in World football put a premium on individual play, but people continue to discount it? Thou shalt be average or be labeled "selfish" or a "flair player"

Because kids here are from day one in the structured environment,kids today can not experiment and try new things ,being creative is labeled as ball-huger and later on as selfish player.

I would like to have selfish player Naimar on our team.:cheers:

T-boy
07-17-2012, 01:00 PM
Again...you are making a lot of statments without any real reference to any solid proof other than your own opinion. I am not saying that you aren't correct, but at least back it up with some sort of stats.

Go through the OPTA stats chalkboard of TFC matches before you make assumptions based on what you are seeing. Obviously every game is different and players have off and on games..... As does every player...but to "simply state" JDG didn't pass or isn't good at it does not prove anything unless you back it up with some sort of statistics.

JDG OPTA stats under Mariner:
Vancouver game: 12 successful - 7 unsuccessful - 60 min played - 63.1% accuracy
Philly game: 12 successful - 4 unsuccessful - 45 min played - 75% accuracy
Dallas game: 11 successful - 1 unsuccessful - 9 min played - 91.6 % accuracy
New York game: 6 successful - 3 unsuccessful - 10 min played - 66.6 % accuracy
Montreal game: 17 successful - 5 unsuccessful - 57 min played - 77.2 % accuracy
New England game: 24 successful - 9 unsuccessful - 82 min played - 72 % accuracy
Houston game: 20 successful - 10 unsuccessful - 81 min played - 66.6 % accuracy
KC game: 7 successful - 2 unsuccessful - 28 min played - 77.7 % accuracy

So to sum it up under Mariner(who I think JDG played worse under) his overall PASSING stats were as follows:
109 successful passes - 41 unsuccessful - 372 minutes played(out of a possible 720 minutes total) - 72.6 % accuracy

Hardly the statistics of someone who can't pass or never could pass....and again these are under Mariner who I believe JDG played worse and way less minutes.

If you go deep enough you can find anything....in a lot of cases as well he was a lot better and distributed the ball more and more successfully than Dunfield. And as I said...some games his percentage was good and sometimes it was bad...but if you analyze every player on this team you'll probably see the same things.

I understand it was a numbers game and that is why he is gone....but for you to state he doesn't pass isn't correct. His numbers under Mariner are decent...considering he never played 90 minutes.

I suggest do a little digging before you make sweeping statements about a statistical category that is actually out there to be measured. Stats are a wonderful thing.... :)

I'd like to know the DISTANCE of each pass from JDG? I'm not sure we can ever find that stat. But I'm fairly sure most of his passes were to somebody about 2 yards away. I'm fairly sure I could match those stats passing to somebody standing next to me!

T-boy
07-17-2012, 01:06 PM
There is a plenty of evidence that he does not want to coach a passing game,first one is boot when under pressure b,second is 37% of ball possession per game,what else do you need?



I keep arguing, which I will do again, that Mariner's current style is more if an indication that he hasn't had hardly ANY time with the squad of players. With limited coaching time, you go back to basics, and you HAVE to simplify the system. We can't really judge Mariner's style of play until he gets a GOOD amount of time coaching the team, can we?

The stats are clouding the fact that he's got better results with the same squad of players that Winter had. You don't win a game by out possession your opponent, you win by out scoring them. And the fact is that we have been winning games. Within the timeframe that Mariner has had with the team, he's done a good job. He's turned a team from having 3 points, to 16 points in a matter of weeks!

We simply can't judge Mariner other than the fact that he's turned around a losing team into a fairly consistent winning one. Possession stats and style of play are just an indicator that he's made a team play simpler, and made them much harder to beat than before.

We need to give the guy more time to evaluate his full style of play, we can't judge him on that right now.

Ageroo
07-17-2012, 01:08 PM
I'd like to know the DISTANCE of each pass from JDG? I'm not sure we can ever find that stat. But I'm fairly sure most of his passes were to somebody about 2 yards away. I'm fairly sure I could match those stats passing to somebody standing next to me!

Go to the Opta stats........on the field graph you can select all the passes. They are not all 2 yards away....lol

As I said....do some homework before you make assumptions....which you keep making. I understand you are trying to make a point, but at least try to be correct in making it. :)

denime
07-17-2012, 01:10 PM
I'd like to know the DISTANCE of each pass from JDG? I'm not sure we can ever find that stat. But I'm fairly sure most of his passes were to somebody about 2 yards away. I'm fairly sure I could match those stats passing to somebody standing next to me!

Now you are just being ridiculous,seriously,you are questioning a distance of his passes?

in this case Barcelona and Spain are two worst teams in the world since 90% of their passing is short,and England is world champions since they average a 40-50 meters per pass.:facepalm:

T-boy
07-17-2012, 01:19 PM
If nobody can see the points I'm making, then I just give up!

If you, as fans, can't see that Mariner has HAD to simplify the game given the time he has had, then you are watching a different game and a different club to me!

And if you think JDG was a fantastic player for the club, then why did everybody always complain about him over and over again, on the terraces, and on this forum? His passing was awful, and we all complained about it again and again. We all recognised that he was being paid way too much money and taking up way too much cap space for what he does on the field. I'm just making observations about the games I saw JDG play. I'm not pulling out opta stats. JDG's passing, on average, was terrible! If you disagree, then maybe I'm watching a different team playing in red, and JDG is a different guy, playing for a different team, and maybe he's blonde and 6 ft 5! That isn't the game I've been watching, or the player I've been watching!

Ajax TFC
07-17-2012, 01:30 PM
If the academy are still using the system, how does that mean that we are dumping the system? Do you REALLY want people like Harden and Cann to continue to play short passes out of the defence...to the opponents striker?! It's embarrassing to watch over and over again! Mariner doesn't have much of a choice, given the players he has, to play a more direct style!
no, in fact I don't want to see people like Harden playing period. But what about Henry? In the last few games I've seen him make killer passes from near the half to the strikers through traffic. I think that if he can do that from RB, he can at the very least make a pass to the DM from the CB position. I've also seen some incredible passing from Eckersley in the past to get out of trouble (which usually ended with the ball hitting Dunfield's foot and then flying through the air), but ever since Mariner took over all he does is punt it up field. Coincidence? no

T-boy
07-17-2012, 01:35 PM
no, in fact I don't want to see people like Harden playing period. But what about Henry? In the last few games I've seen him make killer passes from near the half to the strikers through traffic. I think that if he can do that from RB, he can at the very least make a pass to the DM from the CB position. I've also seen some incredible passing from Eckersley in the past to get out of trouble (which usually ended with the ball hitting Dunfield's foot and then flying through the air), but ever since Mariner took over all he does is punt it up field. Coincidence? no

To be fair Ecks has been playing CB, and he plays that position a lot differently to when he plays FB. A FB has a lot more time, generally, to play a pass. At CB often he is surrounding and his "pass" is actually a clearance from danger. Also CB isn't his natural position so I wouldn't expect him to have the same stats there as his familiar FB position.

Ageroo
07-17-2012, 01:36 PM
If nobody can see the points I'm making, then I just give up!

If you, as fans, can't see that Mariner has HAD to simplify the game given the time he has had, then you are watching a different game and a different club to me!

And if you think JDG was a fantastic player for the club, then why did everybody always complain about him over and over again, on the terraces, and on this forum? His passing was awful, and we all complained about it again and again. We all recognised that he was being paid way too much money and taking up way too much cap space for what he does on the field. I'm just making observations about the games I saw JDG play. I'm not pulling out opta stats. JDG's passing, on average, was terrible! If you disagree, then maybe I'm watching a different team playing in red, and JDG is a different guy, playing for a different team, and maybe he's blonde and 6 ft 5! That isn't the game I've been watching, or the player I've been watching!

I understand that you are frustrated that some cannot see the points you are trying to make at times, but here's the other side of the coin...you are doing the exact same thing to everyone else. I am giving you actual stats and you are just passing them off as if they don't exist or everything is a two yard pass, etc.....

I AGREE....he was grossly overpaid. No one will debate that....and we wanted more from him of course......and I understand....you are making ASSUMPTIONS based on what you have seen....but you are trying to pass them off as "pseudo facts" to people to make your point.

I am giving you STATS....which are MEASURED and they are countering your ASSUMPTIONS. No matter how you spin it these stats show his passing. It is black and white.

Here are his last three games visially....since it seems you don't believe me. Yes he has short passes...but he has long passes as well...and medium passes...

The pic attached is the PHILLY, DALLAS & VANCOUVER matches.......I am not sure why I am even bothering as I am sure these won't be evidence enough and I should have added all pictures, which I do not have the time to do....lol :)

T-boy
07-17-2012, 01:39 PM
You can tell I'm an Englishman talking to North America's about sport here eh?! Myself, no stat talk, you guys ALL stat talk! haha! the only time I'm take notice of stats in football is when I'm putting together my fantasy pool team. And it often comprises of players you would NEVER have in a real life team, cos the stats don't really tell the story of their actual game! Stats really only tell half the story in football, always have and always will! Lies, Damn lies, and Statistics, right?!

Ageroo
07-17-2012, 01:44 PM
You can tell I'm an Englishman talking to North America's about sport here eh?! Myself, no stat talk, you guys ALL stat talk! haha! the only time I'm take notice of stats in football is when I'm putting together my fantasy pool team. And it often comprises of players you would NEVER have in a real life team, cos the stats don't really tell the story of their actual game! Stats really only tell half the story in football, always have and always will! Lies, Damn lies, and Statistics, right?!

OK.....englishman, canadian, american....it doesn't matter. You made a statement that he can't pass or doesn't. I am showing you the fallacy in your arguement. Passing is something that can and is measured here. There is no debate. Everyone always remembers blunders and superb passes. JDG has bits of both....it seems you have chosen to remember all the bad...which is your right.......but again...this has nothing to do with your view on Mariner vs. Winter...simply your assumption of JDG.

Ageroo
07-17-2012, 01:47 PM
You can tell I'm an Englishman talking to North America's about sport here eh?! Myself, no stat talk, you guys ALL stat talk! haha! the only time I'm take notice of stats in football is when I'm putting together my fantasy pool team. And it often comprises of players you would NEVER have in a real life team, cos the stats don't really tell the story of their actual game! Stats really only tell half the story in football, always have and always will! Lies, Damn lies, and Statistics, right?!


and yes of course....stats don't tell the full story...that is for sure.

Whoop
07-17-2012, 01:48 PM
Actually stats and numbers are being used increasing regularity in soccer to make personnel decisions and to see which players are most effective.

Many top club teams in the EPL, Serie A and La Liga have been using them for years already.

And as more and more companies like Opta spend more money and resources tracking information the more numbers are being used.

jrober38
07-17-2012, 01:51 PM
and yes of course....stats don't tell the full story...that is for sure.

Although the stats indicate he wasn't awful, the reason so many have such a negative opinion of JDG is because he was arguably the worst value of any DP in the league since he signed with us. He played like a player who should have been making $150-200k a year when in reality he was making 10 times that amount.

He was a central midfielder who didn't defend well, offered next to nothing in attack and had many memorable errors. Ultimately those are the reasons no one remembers him fondly.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 01:51 PM
OK.....englishman, canadian, american....it doesn't matter. You made a statement that he can't pass or doesn't. I am showing you the fallacy in your arguement. Passing is something that can and is measured here. There is no debate. Everyone always remembers blunders and superb passes. JDG has bits of both....it seems you have chosen to remember all the bad...which is your right.......but again...this has nothing to do with your view on Mariner vs. Winter...simply your assumption of JDG.

I don't think we should all get to the point in football forums where if you "think you see somebody do something bad or good" that you need to have an opta stat to back up your allegations. I think a lot of people know football well enough to make good judgements without the backing of statistics.

I don't just assume that JDG isn't a good passer, I've observed it week after week as a TFC fan. And most;y everybody else I've spoken to at BMO also agree's, his passing for TFC over the last 2.5 years has been pretty awful! I don't need stats or opta stats to back that up, myself and a few thousand other TFC fans have seen it for themselves!

T-boy
07-17-2012, 01:53 PM
Although the stats indicate he wasn't awful, the reason so many have such a negative opinion of JDG is because he was arguably the worst value of any DP in the league since he signed with us. He played like a player who should have been making $150-200k a year when in reality he was making 10 times that amount.

He was a central midfielder who didn't defend well, offered next to nothing in attack and had many memorable errors. Ultimately those are the reasons no one remembers him fondly.

Agreed fully. All the stats in the world don't mask the fact that he was bad value and was taking up WAY too much cap space for a player of his contribution to the club.

Beach_Red
07-17-2012, 01:53 PM
I don't think we should all get to the point in football forums where if you "think you see somebody do something bad or good" that you need to have an opta stat to back up your allegations. I think a lot of people know football well enough to make good judgements without the backing of statistics.

I don't just assume that JDG isn't a good passer, I've observed it week after week as a TFC fan. And most;y everybody else I've spoken to at BMO also agree's, his passing for TFC over the last 2.5 years has been pretty awful! I don't need stats or opta stats to back that up, myself and a few thousand other TFC fans have seen it for themselves!

I sure don't want to get in the middle of this ;), but a few books have been written recently that show how a lot of people think they know something really well actually don't...

jrober38
07-17-2012, 01:56 PM
Actually stats and numbers are being used increasing regularity in soccer to make personnel decisions and to see which players are most effective.

Many top club teams in the EPL, Serie A and La Liga have been using them for years already.

And as more and more companies like Opta spend more money and resources tracking information the more numbers are being used.

Stats are useful if you can put them into a meaningful context. In football, basketball and baseball they're easy to understand because their context is so basic.

However, in soccer a stat as simple as passes completed does very little to gauge a players impact on the field. To fully understand their impact, you need to dig a lot further to see what developed out of those passes, otherwise you can argue that they made little impact. I don't have that info and I'm not going to bother looking, I'm just simply pointing out that soccer stats don't tell the same story as stats from other spots.

Ageroo
07-17-2012, 01:57 PM
I don't just assume that JDG isn't a good passer, I've observed it week after week as a TFC fan. And most;y everybody else I've spoken to at BMO also agree's, his passing for TFC over the last 2.5 years has been pretty awful! I don't need stats or opta stats to back that up, myself and a few thousand other TFC fans have seen it for themselves!

and on that note and all the data I have provided to disprove your observations(and the thousands of other who don't look at stats)..........I have nothing else to say......so I will VISUALLY show my frustration. :)

http://cl.jroo.me/z3/v/G/z/d/a.aaa-Real-facepalm.jpg

Ageroo
07-17-2012, 01:58 PM
Agreed fully. All the stats in the world don't mask the fact that he was bad value and was taking up WAY too much cap space for a player of his contribution to the club.

At least we can agree on this.....as much as I like the guy. He is lucky he had a good agent....:)

T-boy
07-17-2012, 01:58 PM
I sure don't want to get in the middle of this ;), but a few books have been written recently that show how a lot of people think they know something really well actually don't...

I think this is where you get to the limitation of talking about this on a football forum. You have NO idea who knows what, or who actually knows football well/their subject matter. There are enough people who type things on forums that have NO clue about what they are talking about! The internet is no place to come to find ACTUAL facts when it is full of mostly rubbish, and a forum is the worst place! If we were all at the pub talking about it 1. it would be a lot faster and we could argue a lot better and 2. you would quickly find out who was talking sense and who isn't. This forum has its limitation, of course! I think a number of us (me included) start to take things too seriously given that its a forum, and you can't really argue effectively and timely.

I did meet two RPB's in the pub prior to the Whitecaps game and we found that we agreed on mostly everything, even though we didn't necessarily agree with everything we type on this forum.

If you guys met me, maybe you would then judge if I know what I'm talking about or not....but on a forum, that's next to impossible to judge.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 02:00 PM
[QUOTE=Ageroo;1512858]and on that note and all the data I have provided to disprove your observations(and the thousands of other who don't look at stats)..........I have nothing else to say......so I will VISUALLY show my frustration. :)
]

Let's re-sign him then! And agreed with the other poster - you simply can't judge a soccer player by his opta stats! If you just judge players by their stats, I think you are getting the game very wrong!

brad
07-17-2012, 02:08 PM
You can tell I'm an Englishman talking to North America's about sport here eh?! Myself, no stat talk, you guys ALL stat talk! haha! the only time I'm take notice of stats in football is when I'm putting together my fantasy pool team. And it often comprises of players you would NEVER have in a real life team, cos the stats don't really tell the story of their actual game! Stats really only tell half the story in football, always have and always will! Lies, Damn lies, and Statistics, right?!

What is interesting is the leader in Football stats - Prozone is from the UK and heavily used. Statistical analysis in the media in the UK is picking up steam (Four-Four-Two's Stats Zone, Guardian Chalkboards and articles built around them).

Some interesting testemonials about the use of Prozone stats from some folks at high levels:



"At Real Madrid our ambition is always to be at the forefront of this science, a goal best achieved utilising the most accurate and detailed performance data available. The Prozone system has proven its excellent capabilities in this field and its flexibility to turn data into unique, valuable insight."
Valter Di Salvo, Former Head of TEC Real Madrid CF


"Technical superiority can be measured. In the past, it was just about feelings, opinions. I wanted to know a little bit more. I am always in the situation where I have to judge people, and the more concrete objective numbers you have the better you can achieve that."

Arsène Wenger, Manager Arsenal FC









"For scouting the opposition and analysing your team Prozone gives you a wealth of information you cannot get with the naked eye. It is a supplement to your judgement."

Alan Pardew, Manager Newcastle United FC

Tons more here : http://www.prozonesports.com/testimonials.html

T-boy
07-17-2012, 02:14 PM
Agreed the use of stats IS increasing in Europe, but its still nowhere near to the degree its used in most "North American" sports. I remember the first time I went to see the Raptors play, myself and my English friends all laughed at the stats board! We thought it was hilarious that you would put down some many stats! I think its just a different mentality in North America to see the stats, and obviously a lot of the sports rely heavily on the stats other than the scoreline.

I frequent a couple of English football forums, and the use of stats are used a lot less there than on any north american soccer forum. They are used a little, but not to the degree say, that we've seen on this topic. (maybe that's why the English are so crap at football......yeah go on, somebody say that! :p )

Whoop
07-17-2012, 02:14 PM
Stats are useful if you can put them into a meaningful context. In football, basketball and baseball they're easy to understand because their context is so basic.

However, in soccer a stat as simple as passes completed does very little to gauge a players impact on the field. To fully understand their impact, you need to dig a lot further to see what developed out of those passes, otherwise you can argue that they made little impact. I don't have that info and I'm not going to bother looking, I'm just simply pointing out that soccer stats don't tell the same story as stats from other spots.

And that's what the people who develop them are doing. Going above and beyond what is generally available out there.

It started with baseball and now is moving more towards the flow sports (hockey, basketball, soccer, etc.) Right now, soccer analytics is behind most sports but it's catching up because it's easier to track events in soccer than a sport like hockey.

Hell, they're using missile tracking technology in the NBA to track events (or at least some teams are). There are wealthy teams in England tracking the same kind of stuff.

http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670059/moneyball-20-how-missile-tracking-cameras-are-remaking-the-nba

Teams like AC Milan (with their Milan Lab - http://www.acmilan.com/en/club/milan_lab) and numerous English clubs have "analytic labs" where they track various stats, events in conjunction with sports physiology to develop the best methods to employ the players they have or replace the current players they have.

It's the next wave. It's started now, it's not going to stop.

You can see it in MLS with their Chalkboard, though it is very rudimentary.

Ageroo
07-17-2012, 02:16 PM
I think this is where you get to the limitation of talking about this on a football forum. You have NO idea who knows what, or who actually knows football well/their subject matter. There are enough people who type things on forums that have NO clue about what they are talking about! The internet is no place to come to find ACTUAL facts when it is full of mostly rubbish, and a forum is the worst place! If we were all at the pub talking about it 1. it would be a lot faster and we could argue a lot better and 2. you would quickly find out who was talking sense and who isn't. This forum has its limitation, of course! I think a number of us (me included) start to take things too seriously given that its a forum, and you can't really argue effectively and timely.

I did meet two RPB's in the pub prior to the Whitecaps game and we found that we agreed on mostly everything, even though we didn't necessarily agree with everything we type on this forum.

If you guys met me, maybe you would then judge if I know what I'm talking about or not....but on a forum, that's next to impossible to judge.

I am sure if I met you, I'd think you are a stand up guy and everything....and even based on my disagreements here on this forum...I take it as just that....disagreements. I don't doubt you know football and am not questioning that in the least. Just can't agree on your assessment as their is proof out there that even laymen can access.

I completely understand that your assessment of him is poor based on visually observing it....my assesment of him is poor as well from visually observing it as well. The difference is I really want to figure out if my assessment of the situation is correct....and in this case my assessment of JDG being poor all the time isn't the case at all.

I understand his contract and DP tag was the reason he was let go. If he didn't have that DP tag associated with him I am on the OPINION(an assumption I am making) that he would still be on this team.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 02:17 PM
Whoop that's all well and good. But I still say you can't really judge a football game by stats alone. Other sports you can, but not soccer. There are certain off the ball movements and closing down that you can't really put into a stats page. The influence one player has may not be down to accurate passes, or good tackles, but often is only judged by watching the game. American Football, Baseball and Basketball you can all judge reletively well with stats. But they are very different sports to soccer.

Whoop
07-17-2012, 02:19 PM
What is interesting is the leader in Football stats - Prozone is from the UK and heavily used. Statistical analysis in the media in the UK is picking up steam (Four-Four-Two's Stats Zone, Guardian Chalkboards and articles built around them).

Some interesting testemonials about the use of Prozone stats from some folks at high levels:








Tons more here : http://www.prozonesports.com/testimonials.html

Don't forget Opta http://www.optasports.com/ also based in the UK.

And don't forget Opta and Prozone are independent companies. Most individual clubs have their own departments working on this stuff. The consensus from most people involved is that the generic stats you see on TV are woefully inadequate to paint a picture of what has happened in a match. Thus the need to dig up better and improved methodologies and numbers to evaluate players and talent.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 02:19 PM
I am sure if I met you, I'd think you are a stand up guy and everything....and even based on my disagreements here on this forum...I take it as just that....disagreements. I don't doubt you know football and am not questioning that in the least. Just can't agree on your assessment as their is proof out there that even laymen can access.

I completely understand that your assessment of him is poor based on visually observing it....my assesment of him is poor as well from visually observing it as well. The difference is I really want to figure out if my assessment of the situation is correct....and in this case my assessment of JDG being poor all the time isn't the case at all.

I understand his contract and DP tag was the reason he was let go. If he didn't have that DP tag associated with him I am on the OPINION(an assumption I am making) that he would still be on this team.

I sent you a PM about the same subject, but you answered it well here. Thanks :)

And I agree, if JDG was on a much lower wage, he would still be here. I still wouldn't be a big fan of his, though!

Whoop
07-17-2012, 02:23 PM
Whoop that's all well and good. But I still say you can't really judge a football game by stats alone. Other sports you can, but not soccer. There are certain off the ball movements and closing down that you can't really put into a stats page. The influence one player has may not be down to accurate passes, or good tackles, but often is only judged by watching the game. American Football, Baseball and Basketball you can all judge reletively well with stats. But they are very different sports to soccer.

It's what I doing for a living (ok on the side, and it's in hockey). I too was skeptical.

But companies like Prozone and Opta can track those off the ball movements and various defensive movements and decipher all that information. So it's already started to be done.

As a scout, I'll admit you miss a lot with the naked eye. That's why you re-watch video and look at objective numbers since you can bring your own bias to evaluations.

At the end of the day stats don't tell the whole picture (neither does an experience set of eyes) but stats can work in conjunction with live viewings. And sometimes stats will confirm what you saw or confirm what you missed.

jrober38
07-17-2012, 02:26 PM
Don't forget Opta http://www.optasports.com/ also based in the UK.

And don't forget Opta and Prozone are independent companies. Most individual clubs have their own departments working on this stuff. The consensus from most people involved is that the generic stats you see on TV are woefully inadequate to paint a picture of what has happened in a match. Thus the need to dig up better and improved methodologies and numbers to evaluate players and talent.

The stats that are given to us on TV have no context and accordingly they don't mean much.

In the future more meaningful stats should be available to the public, but for now as the process is in its infant stage, those numbers are too valuable to the teams who do the dirty work which is why they're not readily available to the public.

Advanced sports metrics are the way of the future and the teams who use them will be rewarded nicely. Personally I think the MLS environment makes them extremely valuable. Being able to properly value players and identify financial bargains around the league would be extremely beneficial under the burden of the salary cap.

It'll take time, but eventually someone will probably develop a money ball system for MLS soccer.

Whoop
07-17-2012, 02:27 PM
Just doing a quick search, ProZone has the ability to track off the ball movements (what a player does before he receives a ball, what he does after he has passed the ball) and has been doing so for years. How teams use that information is up to them.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 02:28 PM
Just doing a quick search, ProZone has the ability to track off the ball movements (what a player does before he receives a ball, what he does after he has passed the ball) and has been doing so for years. How teams use that information is up to them.

I'm assuming this info isn't available to us (the public)?

Whoop
07-17-2012, 02:29 PM
The stats that are given to us on TV have no context and accordingly they don't mean much.

In the future more meaningful stats should be available to the public, but for now as the process is in its infant stage, those numbers are too valuable to the teams who do the dirty work which is why they're not readily available to the public.

Advanced sports metrics are the way of the future and the teams who use them will be rewarded nicely. Personally I think the MLS environment makes them extremely valuable. Being able to properly value players and identify financial bargains around the league would be extremely beneficial under the burden of the salary cap.

Exactly.

In a MLS setting where value for your money is extremely important, stats are more valuable.

Whoop
07-17-2012, 02:31 PM
I'm assuming this info isn't available to us (the public)?

Slowly, more and more information is being made available from various sources.

Just in the last 5-6 years, the amount of information and numbers available to the public has grown exponentially. But like jrober said, a lot of the stuff at the amount is proprietary.

Oddly enough, England is one country that is at the forefront of it but at the same time one of the places with the most resistance towards it.

For example the numbers that Ageroo provided on JDG, while a 70-75% pass completion rate seems impressive, you want your players to be closer to 80-85%. But again, context. You have to evaluate the rest of the players around him to get a better picture.

Canary10
07-17-2012, 02:39 PM
The opta stats show you a lot more than you would think. You really cannot visually follow every player on the pitch and know where they all position. Those chalkboards give you a much better idea of that. You can also see some of the slight variations in tactics that you might not otherwise notice. For example, TFC's 4 man mid plays lopsided, with Lambe further up, and the left mid further back and slightly more in. I didn't notice that in games, especially on TV. T-Boy, looking at them actually made me apreciate better some of the nuance of Mariner's tactics - I give him a bit more credit now than the complete simpleton I believed he was at the start! You should applaud that!

Beach_Red
07-17-2012, 02:49 PM
Whoop that's all well and good. But I still say you can't really judge a football game by stats alone. Other sports you can, but not soccer. There are certain off the ball movements and closing down that you can't really put into a stats page. The influence one player has may not be down to accurate passes, or good tackles, but often is only judged by watching the game. American Football, Baseball and Basketball you can all judge reletively well with stats. But they are very different sports to soccer.

I wish this was true. Actually I wish stats weren't such a good tool in all sports ;). But like Whoop says, stats are actually a good tool for people who know how to use them. When stats first started to go nuts in baseball one of things I liked was that they very often backed up old time managers instinctual decision making - hunches based on years of experience. Emotionally, that's what I like. And that's still what's going on, but now a manager has a lot more information to look at before making that hunch.

jrober38
07-17-2012, 02:50 PM
Slowly, more and more information is being made available from various sources.

Just in the last 5-6 years, the amount of information and numbers available to the public has grown exponentially. But like jrober said, a lot of the stuff at the amount is proprietary.

Oddly enough, England is one country that is at the forefront of it but at the same time one of the places with the most resistance towards it.

For example the numbers that Ageroo provided on JDG, while a 70-75% pass completion rate seems impressive, you want your players to be closer to 80-85%. But again, context. You have to evaluate the rest of the players around him to get a better picture.

Completed passes is too basic. To put it in better context you have to look at things like how many of his passes created, or led to scoring chances and goals, how many led to quick turnovers, which of the missed passes led to scoring chances or goals in our net. Then you need to look at where those things happened on the pitch, whether or not he was under pressure or had time on the ball, as well as whether or not improvement can be made in any of those areas.

Whoop
07-17-2012, 03:00 PM
Completed passes is too basic. To put it in better context you have to look at things like how many of his passes created, or led to scoring chances and goals, how many led to quick turnovers, which of the missed passes led to scoring chances or goals in our net. Then you need to look at where those things happened on the pitch, whether or not he was under pressure or had time on the ball, as well as whether or not improvement can be made in any of those areas.

Not disagreeing with you.

T-boy
07-17-2012, 03:33 PM
The opta stats show you a lot more than you would think. You really cannot visually follow every player on the pitch and know where they all position. Those chalkboards give you a much better idea of that. You can also see some of the slight variations in tactics that you might not otherwise notice. For example, TFC's 4 man mid plays lopsided, with Lambe further up, and the left mid further back and slightly more in. I didn't notice that in games, especially on TV. T-Boy, looking at them actually made me apreciate better some of the nuance of Mariner's tactics - I give him a bit more credit now than the complete simpleton I believed he was at the start! You should applaud that!

I did actually notice that Lambe plays further forward. From the same stats you are looking at - am I correct in saying that when Lambe is NOT playing, and Avila IS playing, that Avila is the one who is then playing the further up/lopsided roll? It seemed to me on the field that Avila was the man originally playing that more advanced roll, and then when Lambe is playing, he is the player to push forward a little more. Is that correct (obviously that's my observation rather than any stat based judgement!)?

brad
07-17-2012, 04:17 PM
Whoop that's all well and good. But I still say you can't really judge a football game by stats alone. Other sports you can, but not soccer. There are certain off the ball movements and closing down that you can't really put into a stats page. The influence one player has may not be down to accurate passes, or good tackles, but often is only judged by watching the game. American Football, Baseball and Basketball you can all judge reletively well with stats. But they are very different sports to soccer.

That's the point you are missing. You can put track this stuff statiscally, and it is being done. Not the pages or data you and I have, but this data is being tracked, analyzed and utilized by top clubs around the world. Want to know if a player is closing down effectively? Track their position on the pitch (heat map) and correlate it with interceptions, tackles, missed passes, ect. That will tell you if a player is closing down effectively.

Real statistical analysis is not what we do - cracking open opta data and eyeballing it. Real statistical analysis is heavy duty number crunching done many, many data points, across time. That's what these very expensive systems that Real Mardrid, Arsenal, and many other top clubs are doing.

brad
07-17-2012, 04:18 PM
It's what I doing for a living (ok on the side, and it's in hockey). I too was skeptical.

But companies like Prozone and Opta can track those off the ball movements and various defensive movements and decipher all that information. So it's already started to be done.

As a scout, I'll admit you miss a lot with the naked eye. That's why you re-watch video and look at objective numbers since you can bring your own bias to evaluations.

At the end of the day stats don't tell the whole picture (neither does an experience set of eyes) but stats can work in conjunction with live viewings. And sometimes stats will confirm what you saw or confirm what you missed.

Removal of biases is another big pro for stats.

brad
07-17-2012, 04:21 PM
Slowly, more and more information is being made available from various sources.

Just in the last 5-6 years, the amount of information and numbers available to the public has grown exponentially. But like jrober said, a lot of the stuff at the amount is proprietary.

Oddly enough, England is one country that is at the forefront of it but at the same time one of the places with the most resistance towards it.

For example the numbers that Ageroo provided on JDG, while a 70-75% pass completion rate seems impressive, you want your players to be closer to 80-85%. But again, context. You have to evaluate the rest of the players around him to get a better picture.

What would be interesting is to see his numbers compare to players in similar roles within the MLS. As DP he should be well above the rest his peers.

T-boy
07-18-2012, 09:23 AM
That's the point you are missing. You can put track this stuff statiscally, and it is being done. Not the pages or data you and I have, but this data is being tracked, analyzed and utilized by top clubs around the world. Want to know if a player is closing down effectively? Track their position on the pitch (heat map) and correlate it with interceptions, tackles, missed passes, ect. That will tell you if a player is closing down effectively.

Real statistical analysis is not what we do - cracking open opta data and eyeballing it. Real statistical analysis is heavy duty number crunching done many, many data points, across time. That's what these very expensive systems that Real Mardrid, Arsenal, and many other top clubs are doing.

I know clubs are doing it - but I don't think we should be doing it here on an internet forum. A couple of people on this thread have put their argument with opta stats. That's all fine, but most of us don't have the time or ability to go through the stats line by line to back up our argument! The time when this (or any socccer) forum only has any credibility by citing stats, is the day the forum dies. We are all here cos we want to discuss our team and we all have a different prespective and opinion (which makes it great!). But if I say "I don't think JDG is a good passer", and another poster just says "you're wrong, the opta stats disagree" kinda makes the forum a little moot!

Canary10
07-18-2012, 09:25 AM
I did actually notice that Lambe plays further forward. From the same stats you are looking at - am I correct in saying that when Lambe is NOT playing, and Avila IS playing, that Avila is the one who is then playing the further up/lopsided roll? It seemed to me on the field that Avila was the man originally playing that more advanced roll, and then when Lambe is playing, he is the player to push forward a little more. Is that correct (obviously that's my observation rather than any stat based judgement!)?

To me he seems to play back a little more, and pushed inside a bit. Being pushed in could be his natural tendency given he's more of a central player. Or it could be a tactic to allow Morgan the space to move up. It seems to me Mariner is playing with more of an overlapping left back (Morgan) and on the right Hall (or Henry) is a bit more stay at home with Lambe providing the offense. Kinda looks like a kite with a tail.

---------------------------------------Lambe
-----------Avila
----------------------------Dunfield
--------------------Frings

T-boy
07-18-2012, 10:03 AM
To me he seems to play back a little more, and pushed inside a bit. Being pushed in could be his natural tendency given he's more of a central player. Or it could be a tactic to allow Morgan the space to move up. It seems to me Mariner is playing with more of an overlapping left back (Morgan) and on the right Hall (or Henry) is a bit more stay at home with Lambe providing the offense. Kinda looks like a kite with a tail.

---------------------------------------Lambe
-----------Avila
----------------------------Dunfield
--------------------Frings

Agreed. Apart from against Philly, where we had an extremely flat midfield 4, Mariner has been using one wide player more offensively, and one more defensively in a lopsided look, like you describe.

brad
07-18-2012, 10:06 AM
I know clubs are doing it - but I don't think we should be doing it here on an internet forum. A couple of people on this thread have put their argument with opta stats. That's all fine, but most of us don't have the time or ability to go through the stats line by line to back up our argument!

I have the ability, but not the time. I'm glad that others do and put that data up though. I'm also of the school of thought that JDG was a bad passer. The stats put up gave me reason to reconsider though.

What was put up were not complex stats. They were very basic numbers and diagrams readily available from the match results page. I find it hard to buy the idea that you don't have a spare 5-10 minutes to look at that after a match, given your activity on this forum. Lack of interest, for sure. But not lack of time.


The time when this (or any socccer) forum only has any credibility by citing stats, is the day the forum dies. We are all here cos we want to discuss our team and we all have a different prespective and opinion (which makes it great!). But if I say "I don't think JDG is a good passer", and another poster just says "you're wrong, the opta stats disagree" kinda makes the forum a little moot!

I wholeheartedly disagree. I can only speak for myself when I say, if I form an opinion on something, and someone else comes along and presents evidence that my opinion is inaccurate, I take that into account and learn from it where possible. I don't just discard it.

Stats have a time and place here. We can't/don't have the ability and data to do in depth analysis here. But throwing out basic things like pass completion numbers for a midfielder makes about as much sense as throwing out number of goals or goals per game for forwards. And in the UK forums I visit for Man Utd - passing stats are thrown up all the time.

T-boy
07-18-2012, 10:12 AM
What was put up were not complex stats. They were very basic numbers and diagrams readily available from the match results page. I find it hard to buy the idea that you don't have a spare 5-10 minutes to look at that after a match, given your activity on this forum. Lack of interest, for sure. But not lack of time.




My horrible typing errors might give away that I'm sneakily typing while at work as quick as I possibly can! Doing more than that in my job is almost impossible, unfortunately!

Beach_Red
07-18-2012, 10:38 AM
I know clubs are doing it - but I don't think we should be doing it here on an internet forum. A couple of people on this thread have put their argument with opta stats. That's all fine, but most of us don't have the time or ability to go through the stats line by line to back up our argument! The time when this (or any socccer) forum only has any credibility by citing stats, is the day the forum dies. We are all here cos we want to discuss our team and we all have a different prespective and opinion (which makes it great!). But if I say "I don't think JDG is a good passer", and another poster just says "you're wrong, the opta stats disagree" kinda makes the forum a little moot!

Maybe not, maybe just the day it splits into two. I used to hate stats and by extentsion the endless discussions that stats-lovers seemed to be able to get into. And I'm talking about baseball here ;). I've come around a little and am trying to find a middle ground where some stats are useful but so is a more... let's say instinct-based-on-experience approach.

Sports, to me, are more art than science but to some people sports may be more science than art. I guess either one is just as valid. I guess... ;).

trane
07-18-2012, 11:12 AM
If you are a solid defensive team that can counter, you can get far, and win alot, even without the bulk of the possession. But you need, I would say, at least three players of tallent and IQ to make it work. I would say, that you will need a playmaker/passer, to bring the ball up and put it in good positions, a SS/AM to create in and around the box, and at least one player that can finish a high rate of changes. I think that we sorta have the playmaker passer in Frings, we have a finisher is Danny K, I like Johnson but he could be more creative in a support role, and Avila and Silva have not quite done it yet. I am saying that we could be a good counter attacking team if one or two players realy stepped up, or we bought in a AM/SS type to make it all pop.


A good counter, needs to be quick, precise and realatively direct. For example a long pass by Pirlo to Cassano, who lays it off to Balo, who then finishes it. Just to name a team and players that play in that style.

Gazza
07-18-2012, 11:24 AM
If you are a solid defensive team that can counter, you can get far, and win alot, even without the bulk of the possession. But you need, I would say, at least three players of tallent and IQ to make it work. I would say, that you will need a playmaker/passer, to bring the ball up and put it in good positions, a SS/AM to create in and around the box, and at least one player that can finish a high rate of changes. I think that we sorta have the playmaker passer in Frings, we have a finisher is Danny K, I like Johnson but he could be more creative in a support role, and Avila and Silva have not quite done it yet. I am saying that we could be a good counter attacking team if one or two players realy stepped up, or we bought in a AM/SS type to make it all pop.


A good counter, needs to be quick, precise and realatively direct. For example a long pass by Pirlo to Cassano, who lays it off to Balo, who then finishes it. Just to name a team and players that play in that style.

I agree that we do have (had with Danny K) the players to be effective in a counter attacking role, aside from the D which is always ready to bend and buckle. We have enough trouble absorbing pressure on our back-line but our breakdowns on set pieces can be disheartening.

It's been much better lately, but hopefully rumours of a quality CB (i know we've heard this all before) are true. I've acquiesced to the fact that this team will never be able to out-possess any team in this league, so our counter attack has to be deadly.

jrober38
07-18-2012, 11:26 AM
If you are a solid defensive team that can counter, you can get far, and win alot, even without the bulk of the possession. But you need, I would say, at least three players of tallent and IQ to make it work. I would say, that you will need a playmaker/passer, to bring the ball up and put it in good positions, a SS/AM to create in and around the box, and at least one player that can finish a high rate of changes. I think that we sorta have the playmaker passer in Frings, we have a finisher is Danny K, I like Johnson but he could be more creative in a support role, and Avila and Silva have not quite done it yet. I am saying that we could be a good counter attacking team if one or two players realy stepped up, or we bought in a AM/SS type to make it all pop.


A good counter, needs to be quick, precise and realatively direct. For example a long pass by Pirlo to Cassano, who lays it off to Balo, who then finishes it. Just to name a team and players that play in that style.

I also agree with this philosophy.

I view it as having a solid spine, in the sense that everything else works properly because the middle of the field is controlled. Without controlling the middle of the field, where players get the most touches, the players you have on the wings are largely irrelevant, and the team isn't effective.

In creating a solid spine, I believe you need three things to be effective:

- A reliable poacher up front who can score a high percentage of the chances he provided with.

- A creative attacking midfielder who can link play, provide width to the attack with his distribution and create scoring chances for the other players around him.

- A destroyer of a holding midfielder who protects the defense and provides organization at the back.

- Then at CB have two solid players, and then athletes on the wings.

Unfortunately right now, the only one of those things we have is the holding midfielder with Frings, but even he isn't active enough at this stage of his career to cover a ton of ground to do much ball winning. With DK going down, we no longer have a poacher, and we haven't had a creative midfielder since Amado Guevara left town.

T-boy
07-18-2012, 11:44 AM
If you are a solid defensive team that can counter, you can get far, and win alot, even without the bulk of the possession. But you need, I would say, at least three players of tallent and IQ to make it work. I would say, that you will need a playmaker/passer, to bring the ball up and put it in good positions, a SS/AM to create in and around the box, and at least one player that can finish a high rate of changes. I think that we sorta have the playmaker passer in Frings, we have a finisher is Danny K, I like Johnson but he could be more creative in a support role, and Avila and Silva have not quite done it yet. I am saying that we could be a good counter attacking team if one or two players realy stepped up, or we bought in a AM/SS type to make it all pop.


A good counter, needs to be quick, precise and realatively direct. For example a long pass by Pirlo to Cassano, who lays it off to Balo, who then finishes it. Just to name a team and players that play in that style.

A coach can chose to work from the back or the front when they take over a new team. It can work either way, really. It's "easier" to stop conceding goals in football than start scoring more - its generally easier to find decent defenders than find a striker who can score 20 a season (that's why strikers are always the most expensive players in the world!).

It would be "easier" at the moment for Mariner to shore up the defense than find a replacement for Koev's. But replacing Koev's could also be a priority. If I were Mariner I would probably go with shoring up the defense now, and then stop conceding as many goals and make TFC hard to beat. It wouldn't make for the most spectacular end to this season, but it might be more effective than finding a Koev's replacement and keeping the super youthful defense that we have.

Huyton
07-18-2012, 11:53 AM
... But if I say "I don't think JDG is a good passer", and another poster just says "you're wrong, the opta stats disagree" kinda makes the forum a little moot!

Perhaps. The problem is that if someone says something that is incorrect, and it's not pointed out, then others will repeat it until it becomes something that "everyone knows".

For instance, recently someone said that it had taken Danny Loevermans a long time to start scoring, when it was in fact his second game. They also said that he had a tendency of scoring unimportant goals, and that turned out to be wrong, too. He had a lot of goals that either won games, rescued a point, or were the go-ahead goals. Yes, he'd scored in a losing cause in a few games, and he also put the 4th goal in against Columbus, but that was by no means a tendency to score unimportant goals.

On another occasion, someone mentioned that Winter had a W3L2T4 record at the end of last year, and it was also done in a very short time. In fact, there was a two week international break at the beginning of October.

So, yes...we can all have an opinion, but if you want one that will convince others that your are correct, then evidence will be needed.

Further, if you have evidence to suggest that someone's opinion is just "what everyone knows", then I would hope that you would point out the error(s), with decency and civility.

Canary10
07-18-2012, 12:05 PM
Agreed. Apart from against Philly, where we had an extremely flat midfield 4, Mariner has been using one wide player more offensively, and one more defensively in a lopsided look, like you describe.

I think the Montreal and Houston games they line up in more 4-3-1-2 with a dedicated AM (as Trane and some others have pointed out). Yeah, Philly was flat. That was disaster. NE was flat too after Koevermans went out.

trane
07-18-2012, 12:53 PM
A coach can chose to work from the back or the front when they take over a new team. It can work either way, really. It's "easier" to stop conceding goals in football than start scoring more - its generally easier to find decent defenders than find a striker who can score 20 a season (that's why strikers are always the most expensive players in the world!).

It would be "easier" at the moment for Mariner to shore up the defense than find a replacement for Koev's. But replacing Koev's could also be a priority. If I were Mariner I would probably go with shoring up the defense now, and then stop conceding as many goals and make TFC hard to beat. It wouldn't make for the most spectacular end to this season, but it might be more effective than finding a Koev's replacement and keeping the super youthful defense that we have.

I have always thought, and continue to believe that it is easier to build at the back, but the TFC experience has been the other way.

T-boy
07-18-2012, 01:01 PM
I have always thought, and continue to believe that it is easier to build at the back, but the TFC experience has been the other way.

Purely because TFC have NEVER had a world class/good MLS centre back. Up front we've had DeRo and Koev's (both excellent goalscorers) but the CB's we've had have been average at best. Signing somebody like Mellberg would change the whole team, IMO. A "cool head" at the back would change how the whole team perform and really calm the youngsters at the back.

Beach_Red
07-18-2012, 01:05 PM
Purely because TFC have NEVER had a world class/good MLS centre back. Up front we've had DeRo and Koev's (both excellent goalscorers) but the CB's we've had have been average at best. Signing somebody like Mellberg would change the whole team, IMO. A "cool head" at the back would change how the whole team perform and really calm the youngsters at the back.

You're right. Remember those three or four games a hundred years ago when Olivier Tebily was with TFC? Good times...

T-boy
07-18-2012, 01:09 PM
You're right. Remember those three or four games a hundred years ago when Olivier Tebily was with TFC? Good times...

He looked good in the 4 or 5 games he played! Imagine a class CB playing all season - that would really change the team and how the play from the back.

Beach_Red
07-18-2012, 01:14 PM
He looked good in the 4 or 5 games he played! Imagine a class CB playing all season - that would really change the team and how the play from the back.

He really did look good. As you say, a boss. Would have made a big difference if he'd stayed and it's true, he was never really replaced. Did we really have him and Laurent Robert and Amado Guevara at the same time? That almost sounds like we were building something...

Ajax TFC
07-18-2012, 01:18 PM
A good counter, needs to be quick, precise and realatively direct. For example a long pass by Pirlo to Cassano, who lays it off to Balo, who then finishes it. Just to name a team and players that play in that style.
or it could be less direct but way sexier, and still lightning quick. For example: v. Bronkhorst clears off the line to Sneijder who taps it on to van der Vaart, who then sends a long pass forwards to van Bronkhorst, who sends an early cross to kuijt who heads it back to Sneijder to volley into the net. all in 17 seconds.
g:D:wink5:
If TFC were to play a counter attacking game, I think Avila would be one of the most important pieces. take the first goal vs Colorado last year as an example
http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?catid=2&id=3690 skip to 2:35
He's also really good a pressing to win the ball back
I think maybe a lineup like:

Without the ball:

Kocic
Eckersley - Henry - Emory - Hall
Lambe - Avila - Frings - Morgan
Silva
Johnson

With the ball:

Kocic
Eckersley - Henry - Emory - Hall
Frings
Lambe - - Avila - - Morgan
Silva - Johnson

trane
07-18-2012, 02:20 PM
Purely because TFC have NEVER had a world class/good MLS centre back. Up front we've had DeRo and Koev's (both excellent goalscorers) but the CB's we've had have been average at best. Signing somebody like Mellberg would change the whole team, IMO. A "cool head" at the back would change how the whole team perform and really calm the youngsters at the back.

I agree. My point was that TFC has failed to get such a CB.

Yohan
07-18-2012, 09:14 PM
I would prefer more possession based tactic but this is my assessment of mariner so far: if its stupid but it works, then its not stupid

Pookie
07-18-2012, 09:32 PM
Just would like to highlight that they had 52% possession tonight. See? ;)

Huyton
07-19-2012, 08:44 AM
Mariner:
Team.........Poss.....Venue..Result
Kansas ......39.7..... A......L
Houston .....36.7..... A......T
New England .36.5..... H..... T
Montreal ....36.4..... A..... W
New York.....44.6..... H..... T
Dallas ......48........A..... T
Philly ......38.1..... A..... L
Vancouver ...40.5..... H..... W
New England .34.6..... A..... W
Colorado ....52.8..... H..... W
Average .....39.9.... 4H,6A.. 1.6 ppg

Derko
07-19-2012, 08:47 AM
I agree. My point was that TFC has failed to get such a CB.

I agree, and not taking anything away from the youngsters that we do have, but we need the veteran at the back.

Whoop
07-19-2012, 09:57 AM
http://thepowerrank.com/2012/07/13/the-one-thing-everyone-ought-to-know-about-sports-analytics/

Beach_Red
07-19-2012, 10:12 AM
http://thepowerrank.com/2012/07/13/the-one-thing-everyone-ought-to-know-about-sports-analytics/


That's a good article. TFC has really defied the odds by being this bad for this many years...

Whoop
07-19-2012, 10:28 AM
Interesting. More stats analysis.

http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/adidas-and-major-league-soccer-announce-world%E2%80%99s-first-smart-soccer-league

ADIDAS AND MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER ANNOUNCE WORLD’S FIRST SMART SOCCER LEAGUE


Beginning in the 2013 season, all 19 MLS clubs will use the data-tracking technology from adidas, providing coaches, trainers and players with real-time performance metrics including heart rate, speed, acceleration, distance, field position and, for the first time, power.

Whoop
07-20-2012, 12:38 PM
Good piece on what numbers can help you or hurt you.

http://www.eplindex.com/16597/a-cross-to-bear-liverpools-crossing-addiction-in-2011-12.html

T-boy
07-20-2012, 03:23 PM
Interesting article. It just shows that sometimes forming a team around data doesn't always work. Liverpool had the best crosser in the league from the previous season (Downing with the most crossed assists at Villa) and Carroll (one of the target men in the league) working together, so it should have been a dream crossing from Downing onto Carroll's head. But it never worked out. I think Downing got possibly 1 assist all last season? And we all know how much Carroll failed to live up to the hype.

Stouffville_RPB
07-20-2012, 03:56 PM
Interesting article. It just shows that sometimes forming a team around data doesn't always work. Liverpool had the best crosser in the league from the previous season (Downing with the most crossed assists at Villa) and Carroll (one of the target men in the league) working together, so it should have been a dream crossing from Downing onto Carroll's head. But it never worked out. I think Downing got possibly 1 assist all last season? And we all know how much Carroll failed to live up to the hype.

The Beautiful Game - 1
Moneyball - 0

Whoop
07-20-2012, 04:20 PM
But Stouffville, Milan is at the forefront of the revolution. ;)

BHTC Mike
07-21-2012, 02:21 PM
The San Jose Earthquakes have 43 points - more than any TFC team ever - from their first 21 games. They're 7 points clear in their conference and the race for the Supporter's Shield (a better measure of consistency than the post-season) and on pace to set a record for most points in league history.

Anyone want to take a stab at describing their system?

Here's some stats on possession in their 21 league games so far:


Home

Away

Opp

Result



52


NE

W



51.7


Hou

L




40.4

TFC

W




43.5

Sea

W



56.8


Van

W




51.6

NY

D



61.7


RSL

W




59

Phil

W



49.4


DC

W




50.6

Van

L



62.7


Chv

D



59.7


Cmb

D




52.8

LA

W




53.9

KC

L




47.8

Col

W




40.4

RSL

W



47.8


LA

W




57.8

Port

L




51.3

Dal

D



48.2


RSL

W



50.3


Dal

W









54.0

49.9

Avg

BHTC Mike
07-21-2012, 02:31 PM
So, 54% possession at home and about 50% possession on the road. Therefore possession is good, right?

No, not really. In games where San Jose enjoy a significant possession advantage - 55% or greater - their record is only 3W-2D-1L. Two of those draws were home games and thus represent "bad" results. One of the wins came after they gained a two man advantage thanks to this style of route one kick and chase:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1E01OGIl0A

Incredibly, in games where they are out possessed, shown in bold, San Jose are 7W-0D-0L!!!!!!

Yes, you're reading that right. In games where they are out possessed by their opponent, no matter how marginal, they've won EVERY SINGLE TIME. That includes a 3-0 win at BMO Field, that could have been more, where they happily conceded 59.6% of possession to TFC (under Winter).

Digging deeper San Jose average 50% possession when they win, 56.3% possession when they draw, and 53.5% possession when they lose. If you define"good" results as wins and road draws and "bad" results as losses and home draws then San Jose averages 50.2% possession when getting good results and 56.1% possession when getting bad results.

What that tells me is that they aren't a "possession based" team. Having watched them a little I wouldn't describe them as a purely counterattacking team either. In fact, what I think the numbers reveal is that they play a possession neutral system. They'll keep possession when their opponent allows it but they don't specifically look to out possess their opponent as an objective in and of itself.

Arguably, all of the last 4 Supporter's Shield and MLS Cup trophy winners - LA 2010 and 2011 and Colorado 2010 - played what can, at best, be described as possession neutral football if not outright counterattacking (in LA's case) or direct (in Colorado's case) systems.

Can possession football work in this league? Sure.

Is it a prerequisite to success? No. Anyone arguing that is denying the facts.

Is it the future? Maybe. But no one can predict the future and it's just as likely that modern football will be increasingly possession neutral more than possession oriented. If everyone in the league adopts possession oriented systems I suspect that you could have a lot of success countering that rathert han just copying the trend. Systems and formations are always in a state of dynamic interaction for exactly that reason.

San Jose play 4-4-2 and are coached by a classically MLS 1.0 Canadian who's major career as a professional was in England. Every complaint about Mariner, every prediction about his "system", roster management, and style can be found somewhere on a San Jose board over the last four years.

Oh ya, this too:

http://www.itfc.co.uk/page/ClubHistory/0,,10272~1158330,00.html (http://www.itfc.co.uk/page/ClubHistory/0,,10272~1158330,00.html)


Supporters Player of they Year
...
1982/83 Paul Mariner
...
1987/88 Frank Yallop
But apparently you don't learn anything about tactics playing "archaic '80s English longball".*

Forza Mariner. Time to taste the MarinEra.

*Not that, from what I've ever heard, Ipswich were ever known for that. Stereotypes make better arguments though.

Pookie
07-21-2012, 03:31 PM
So, 54% possession at home and about 50% possession on the road. Therefore possession is good, right?

...Stereotypes make better arguments though.

I think virtually everyone here has acknowledged that possession stats don't tell the full story. What would be interesting to know is what is their possession at the time they take a lead in a game? What happens if they trail?

As acknowledged many times, if a team is winning, they tend to play a defensive style which will result in the possession numbers being skewed in the favour of the team losing. For example, teams are trading 55/45 possession numbers when the team with 55% (Team A) scores in the 65th minute to take a 2-0 lead.

Up to that point, Team A had the ball 35.75 minutes (55%) vs Team B's 29.25 minutes (45%).

Team A decides to park the bus. Over the last 10 minutes, Team A holds the ball 5 of the 25 remaining minutes. Total possession in the game for Team A is 40.75 minutes or 45.3% possession. Team B, the losing side, earns 45.25 of the possession or 54.7% .

Of course, possession isn't necessarily correlated with the end result however, in this example, possession played a significant factor in establishing the result while the game was in question.

The game is being played and taught differently now. Possession matters.

v00d00daddy
07-21-2012, 03:43 PM
San Jose play 4-4-2 and are coached by a classically MLS 1.0 Canadian who's major career as a professional was in England. Every complaint about Mariner, every prediction about his "system", roster management, and style can be found somewhere on a San Jose board over the last four years.

Oh ya, this too:

http://www.itfc.co.uk/page/ClubHistory/0,,10272~1158330,00.html (http://www.itfc.co.uk/page/ClubHistory/0,,10272~1158330,00.html)


But apparently you don't learn anything about tactics playing "archaic '80s English longball".*

Forza Mariner. Time to taste the MarinEra.

*Not that, from what I've ever heard, Ipswich were ever known for that. Stereotypes make better arguments though.

You're right...I think teams should scrap teaching and playing a possession based style and teach their players to be "possession neutral".

I'm sorry..but your hypothesis that "maybe" possession is the future of the game is lost. You're already behind because a possession based game is already here. Sure...there will be teams that scratch out a success here and there against possession based teams, but the trend has been going away from kick and run soccer for years.

Even in Canada....except in the TFC first team.

As for supporters voting on the "best players".....take a look at the scarves and the wall of fame. Your answers are there.

I don't give a shit if people in the 80's loved Paul Mariner.

It doesn't make him look any less like a ranting lunatic on the TFC touch line.

denime
07-21-2012, 09:02 PM
You're right...I think teams should scrap teaching and playing a possession based style and teach their players to be "possession neutral".

I'm sorry..but your hypothesis that "maybe" possession is the future of the game is lost. You're already behind because a possession based game is already here. Sure...there will be teams that scratch out a success here and there against possession based teams, but the trend has been going away from kick and run soccer for years.

Even in Canada....except in the TFC first team.

As for supporters voting on the "best players".....take a look at the scarves and the wall of fame. Your answers are there.

I don't give a shit if people in the 80's loved Paul Mariner.

It doesn't make him look any less like a ranting lunatic on the TFC touch line.

Not anymore,NOW TFC ACADEMY is practicing and playing 4-4-2,there will be a bunch of kids/boys/players leaving TFCA after this year is finished.

Junior academy will play next year in OSL U21 instead of CSL reserves league,few more changes are coming,but the main one has already happened and general feeling between the parents and players is that Mariner does not give a damn about academy.

I personally have no problem with this switch to 442,but it is stupid move,this means once Mariner is gone and new coach comes in,academy will change how they play and practice again,they did it now,they will do it again.

v00d00daddy
07-22-2012, 07:41 PM
Not anymore,NOW TFC ACADEMY is practicing and playing 4-4-2,there will be a bunch of kids/boys/players leaving TFCA after this year is finished.

Does that mean they're reverting back to a kick and run version of 4-4-2 or a possession based one where the diamond midfield comes into play and the use of a mezzapunta is still favoured?

If they're going back to kick and run football at the academy level this is the most depressing bit of information yet.

Canary10
07-22-2012, 07:57 PM
Not anymore,NOW TFC ACADEMY is practicing and playing 4-4-2,there will be a bunch of kids/boys/players leaving TFCA after this year is finished.

Junior academy will play next year in OSL U21 instead of CSL reserves league,few more changes are coming,but the main one has already happened and general feeling between the parents and players is that Mariner does not give a damn about academy.

I personally have no problem with this switch to 442,but it is stupid move,this means once Mariner is gone and new coach comes in,academy will change how they play and practice again,they did it now,they will do it again.

Well that's really shitty news.

Whoop
07-22-2012, 08:15 PM
The problem with relying solely on time of possession is score effects.

It is common in a sport like hockey.


Essentially teams that are up a goal go into a defensive shell; teams that are down a goal play more aggressively and try to get more shots.

And in soccer it is also prevalent so that's why you have to take time of possession with a grain of salt. You have to look at the bigger picture.

Whoop
07-22-2012, 08:17 PM
I think virtually everyone here has acknowledged that possession stats don't tell the full story. What would be interesting to know is what is their possession at the time they take a lead in a game? What happens if they trail?

As acknowledged many times, if a team is winning, they tend to play a defensive style which will result in the possession numbers being skewed in the favour of the team losing. For example, teams are trading 55/45 possession numbers when the team with 55% (Team A) scores in the 65th minute to take a 2-0 lead.

Up to that point, Team A had the ball 35.75 minutes (55%) vs Team B's 29.25 minutes (45%).

Team A decides to park the bus. Over the last 10 minutes, Team A holds the ball 5 of the 25 remaining minutes. Total possession in the game for Team A is 40.75 minutes or 45.3% possession. Team B, the losing side, earns 45.25 of the possession or 54.7% .

Of course, possession isn't necessarily correlated with the end result however, in this example, possession played a significant factor in establishing the result while the game was in question.

The game is being played and taught differently now. Possession matters.


LOL I should have read this post first before replying.

denime
07-22-2012, 08:28 PM
Does that mean they're reverting back to a kick and run version of 4-4-2 or a possession based one where the diamond midfield comes into play and the use of a mezzapunta is still favoured?

If they're going back to kick and run football at the academy level this is the most depressing bit of information yet.

well,they are trying to play possession,you can't switch that by boys overnight,but there are more "safe"balls from defenders than before.

It comes down what I was saying from day one,but few posters were arguing it.

IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE to practice 433 when 1st team plays 442,and that's why Mariner and T.Rongen change TFCA formation play to 442,that does not mean they are booting the ball as 1st team,most of the boys have better skill than some 1st team starters,so they can handle the pressure and still play ball on the ground.

From that game I watched it was obvious that kids are relearning positioning and are not all that comfortable but they tried,some will leave,new will come in,life goes on,but the fact that kids from GTAa would rather go to Montreal or Vancouver is not a good sign,I guess circus around 1st team is affecting players and their parents to think twice before they commit for next year.

T-boy
07-22-2012, 08:31 PM
Not anymore,NOW TFC ACADEMY is practicing and playing 4-4-2,there will be a bunch of kids/boys/players leaving TFCA after this year is finished.

Junior academy will play next year in OSL U21 instead of CSL reserves league,few more changes are coming,but the main one has already happened and general feeling between the parents and players is that Mariner does not give a damn about academy.

I personally have no problem with this switch to 442,but it is stupid move,this means once Mariner is gone and new coach comes in,academy will change how they play and practice again,they did it now,they will do it again.

I don't actually believe a few of the things you just wrote! Mariner doesn't care about the academy? Id say that's BS - he just played half the academy players in the Liverpool game, and then praised some of them afterwards! And any MLS coach knows that you can't rely on trading and the draft to get talent - you NEED your own academy. I'll cut my testicals off if Mariner doesn't believe in the academy, I call that much BS on that!

And who is training the academy? De Klerk and Rongen. Are they suddenyl training 4-4-2? They certainly haven't played any academy games other than in 4-3-3 right now, so until that happens, I don't believe they've changed anything.

pekduck
07-22-2012, 08:41 PM
I don't actually believe a few of the things you just wrote! Mariner doesn't care about the academy? Id say that's BS - he just played half the academy players in the Liverpool game, and then praised some of them afterwards! And any MLS coach knows that you can't rely on trading and the draft to get talent - you NEED your own academy. I'll cut my testicals off if Mariner doesn't believe in the academy, I call that much BS on that!

And who is training the academy? De Klerk and Rongen. Are they suddenyl training 4-4-2? They certainly haven't played any academy games other than in 4-3-3 right now, so until that happens, I don't believe they've changed anything.

Actually, if anyone knows about how academy works, it's denime among us. He has his direct sources. There are more than a few on this board who have intricate insider details.

denime
07-22-2012, 08:42 PM
I don't actually believe a few of the things you just wrote! Mariner doesn't care about the academy? Id say that's BS - he just played half the academy players in the Liverpool game, and then praised some of them afterwards! And any MLS coach knows that you can't rely on trading and the draft to get talent - you NEED your own academy. I'll cut my testicals off if Mariner doesn't believe in the academy, I call that much BS on that!

And who is training the academy? De Klerk and Rongen. Are they suddenyl training 4-4-2? They certainly haven't played any academy games other than in 4-3-3 right now, so until that happens, I don't believe they've changed anything.

I hope you will use something sharp for your testicles so it wont hurt to much.I watched the game,Junior academy is playing 442,BDK is not coaching,T.Rongen is doing what he is being told from his boss Mariner,Mariner played academy boys to save starters for MLS,Mariner has no interests in academy as Winter did and you will see once this season is finished how many players from academy who are under contact right now will get new contracts for 2013.

Before you offer to cut your testicles drop by and see what academy is doing,show up from time to time and see it yourself,they are practicing and playing Downsview park,it's 5 min from my house,and I'm there with my kid 2-3 time every week.I talk to parents I know some boys who are in academy and the enthusiasm about whole project is on very low lately.

Huyton
07-22-2012, 08:44 PM
I think virtually everyone here has acknowledged that possession stats don't tell the full story. What would be interesting to know is what is their possession at the time they take a lead in a game? What happens if they trail?

As acknowledged many times, if a team is winning, they tend to play a defensive style which will result in the possession numbers being skewed in the favour of the team losing. For example, teams are trading 55/45 possession numbers when the team with 55% (Team A) scores in the 65th minute to take a 2-0 lead.

Up to that point, Team A had the ball 35.75 minutes (55%) vs Team B's 29.25 minutes (45%).

Team A decides to park the bus. Over the last 10 minutes, Team A holds the ball 5 of the 25 remaining minutes. Total possession in the game for Team A is 40.75 minutes or 45.3% possession. Team B, the losing side, earns 45.25 of the possession or 54.7% .

Of course, possession isn't necessarily correlated with the end result however, in this example, possession played a significant factor in establishing the result while the game was in question.

The game is being played and taught differently now. Possession matters.

Hmmm...so the only thing the possession stats tell us is when the goals were scored?

If you have low possession, and won, then you scored early and "parked the bus".

If you have high possession and won, then you were chasing the game.

If you had low possession, and tied, then "parking the bus" didn't quite work.

If you had high possession and tied, then you didn't quite succeed.

If you had high possession and lost then you need a striker.

If you had low possession and lost, then you need a new defence.

Pookie
07-22-2012, 09:25 PM
Not anymore,NOW TFC ACADEMY is practicing and playing 4-4-2,there will be a bunch of kids/boys/players leaving TFCA after this year is finished.

Junior academy will play next year in OSL U21 instead of CSL reserves league,few more changes are coming,but the main one has already happened and general feeling between the parents and players is that Mariner does not give a damn about academy.

I personally have no problem with this switch to 442,but it is stupid move,this means once Mariner is gone and new coach comes in,academy will change how they play and practice again,they did it now,they will do it again.

From a standpoint in training, how has the emphasis changed? I know my son's SAAC club (U11) spends a good 90-95% of their time on foot skills, short passing, 1 v 1, quick decisions with the goal of maintaining possession. I can't recall the last time we had a session dedicated to things like striking or tactical play. How would a typical TFC-A training session vary now that the emphasis has shifted?

One of my big concerns regarding this club is whether Rongen and de Klerk leave (or are forced out) this summer and replaced with Mariner's guys.
In signing Hassli and giving up the 1st round pick, we are clearly locked into "Forward First Football" for the next season. If this is the Academy direction, this is concerning and I'd say that Rongen and de Klerk should be dusting off their resumes.

The other thing to note as parents is that since the US, including MLS Academies and First teams, are embracing Klinsmann's Total Football plan AND the MLS has the restrictive quota rule in that Canadians count as Internationals under its roster rules, what chance our Canadian kids going to have to earn a living playing Professional soccer in North America?

Pookie
07-22-2012, 09:27 PM
Hmmm...so the only thing the possession stats tell us is when the goals were scored?

If you have low possession, and won, then you scored early and "parked the bus".

If you have high possession and won, then you were chasing the game.

If you had low possession, and tied, then "parking the bus" didn't quite work.

If you had high possession and tied, then you didn't quite succeed.

If you had high possession and lost then you need a striker.

If you had low possession and lost, then you need a new defence.

I don't know what it tells us. I'm asking if you know of a source that breaks down possession based on when a team takes a lead, trails, etc.

ag futbol
07-22-2012, 09:33 PM
Before you offer to cut your testicles drop by and see what academy is doing,show up from time to time and see it yourself,they are practicing and playing Downsview park,it's 5 min from my house,and I'm there with my kid 2-3 time every week.I talk to parents I know some boys who are in academy and the enthusiasm about whole project is on very low lately.
It's basically the last shoe to drop. People should ask why we're suddenly putting emphasis on these "depth" players we've acquired and who's playing time that's going to cannibalize. Sure, you'll get better immediate impact, but the long run you won't give the young guys the experience they need to bridge the gap and develop the skills they need to go further.

But then again, the academy has always been more about marketing than true commitment. We've just been lucky that the player pool in the GTA is pretty deep.

ManUtd4ever
07-22-2012, 09:41 PM
well,they are trying to play possession,you can't switch that by boys overnight,but there are more "safe"balls from defenders than before.

It comes down what I was saying from day one,but few posters were arguing it.

IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE to practice 433 when 1st team plays 442,and that's why Mariner and T.Rongen change TFCA formation play to 442,that does not mean they are booting the ball as 1st team,most of the boys have better skill than some 1st team starters,so they can handle the pressure and still play ball on the ground.

From that game I watched it was obvious that kids are relearning positioning and are not all that comfortable but they tried,some will leave,new will come in,life goes on,but the fact that kids from GTAa would rather go to Montreal or Vancouver is not a good sign,I guess circus around 1st team is affecting players and their parents to think twice before they commit for next year.

I was there, and I was paying close attention to the shape of the Academy players in the second half because of all of our discussions lately. It did seem like they were lined up in a 4-4-1-1.

Like you said though, the skillset of the players will determine their ability to play a possession based game, regardless of the formation. I also thought our Academy players did a better job keeping the ball on the ground than our first team.

As for the risk of Academy players leaving the organization, I would hope that a change in formations wouldn't be such a deterrent that it would scare some of our talented prospects away. Professional footballers have to understand the basics of the game, and they must be able to apply their skills within many variations of different formations in order to have a chance of succeeding with different clubs and coaches throughout their career.

If the instability in management since the inception of the franchise is what has had an adverse effect on some of our Academy prospects, well that's a different story.

BayernTFC
07-23-2012, 01:50 AM
It's basically the last shoe to drop. People should ask why we're suddenly putting emphasis on these "depth" players we've acquired and who's playing time that's going to cannibalize. Sure, you'll get better immediate impact, but the long run you won't give the young guys the experience they need to bridge the gap and develop the skills they need to go further.
You know, I've been disappointed by the focus on adding fringe players. However, it's those moves that have led me to believe denime's declaration:

I watched the game,Junior academy is playing 442,BDK is not coaching,T.Rongen is doing what he is being told from his boss Mariner,Mariner played academy boys to save starters for MLS,Mariner has no interests in academy as Winter did and you will see once this season is finished how many players from academy who are under contact right now will get new contracts for 2013.





But then again, the academy has always been more about marketing than true commitment. We've just been lucky that the player pool in the GTA is pretty deep.
I can understand the frustration and disappointment some Academy players, and their families, must feel. Sold on an idea that TFC would be a club with a philosophy and a direction that would lead them to become something other than just a constituent part of an overarching league. But the dreamers were warned. To the few who refused to believe the hype, you were right. It's sad, but as long as TFC is in MLS, it will only ever be about following a team in just another boring NA league which rewards failure and markets to spectators that enough failure will bring success. At least in the NCAA, university teams with failing programs and ineffective management lose at the recruiting game. Rebuilding a reputation requires the right people, hard work and results. Which athletes choose the university whose program is always changing and whose coach is dropped after every year?

denime
07-23-2012, 06:06 AM
From a standpoint in training, how has the emphasis changed? I know my son's SAAC club (U11) spends a good 90-95% of their time on foot skills, short passing, 1 v 1, quick decisions with the goal of maintaining possession. I can't recall the last time we had a session dedicated to things like striking or tactical play. How would a typical TFC-A training session vary now that the emphasis has shifted?

One of my big concerns regarding this club is whether Rongen and de Klerk leave (or are forced out) this summer and replaced with Mariner's guys.
In signing Hassli and giving up the 1st round pick, we are clearly locked into "Forward First Football" for the next season. If this is the Academy direction, this is concerning and I'd say that Rongen and de Klerk should be dusting off their resumes.

The other thing to note as parents is that since the US, including MLS Academies and First teams, are embracing Klinsmann's Total Football plan AND the MLS has the restrictive quota rule in that Canadians count as Internationals under its roster rules, what chance our Canadian kids going to have to earn a living playing Professional soccer in North America?

Drills are drills and they did not change,but what I found different is that similar to REP soccer,kids now in scrimmage tend to "clear" ball more often than keep in the ground .They should not be scared to make mistake,it's development,if they don't try now to get ball out by passing it,they will definitely not do it later on when they are older.

T.Rongen can not coach kids to boot the ball,it is against his nature as soccer coach,kids are being trained to play possession,it is up to coach from each team to be on the same page and follow trough.

Reason I don't like the way they change formation is,once Mariner is gone,(3 months,year or 3 years from now,doesn't really matter) and new coach comes in and decides to switch to different style,academy will change too and that is mistake ,kids need stability while developing and stick to their system,1st team must win,for all academy teams development is priority.

denime
07-23-2012, 06:09 AM
I was there, and I was paying close attention to the shape of the Academy players in the second half because of all of our discussions lately. It did seem like they were lined up in a 4-4-1-1.

Like you said though, the skillset of the players will determine their ability to play a possession based game, regardless of the formation. I also thought our Academy players did a better job keeping the ball on the ground than our first team.

As for the risk of Academy players leaving the organization, I would hope that a change in formations wouldn't be such a deterrent that it would scare some of our talented prospects away. Professional footballers have to understand the basics of the game, and they must be able to apply their skills within many variations of different formations in order to have a chance of succeeding with different clubs and coaches throughout their career.

If the instability in management since the inception of the franchise is what has had an adverse effect on some of our Academy prospects, well that's a different story.

This plays a big role,parents don't want to play around with their own children's future,and having a circus FO does not help at all.

v00d00daddy
07-23-2012, 07:50 AM
Professional footballers have to understand the basics of the game, and they must be able to apply their skills within many variations of different formations in order to have a chance of succeeding with different clubs and coaches throughout their career.

Agreed...and we don't teach the basics of the game in this country. Or if we do, they take a back seat and coaches have tended to be happy getting results based on athleticism over brains.

Take a guy like DeRo for example. Very talented and skilled player. Also very athletically gifted.

Why did he never make it in a more prominent league?

Simple...his team game sucks. He plays with a lack of purpose and nobody can really tell us what position he plays. He's a rover that goes where he wants, when he wants. When he wants to create, he does. When he wants to score, he shoots from 40 yards out. There's no consistency to his game.

Most Canadian players don't have the finely honed fundamental skills to reach higher levels of football, and those who do (like DeRo) don't have the team game component as a high enough priority in their game.

I thought the Academy would instill both these things.

But if defenders are still being taught to waste balls away under the slightest bit of pressure, and attacking amounts to whoever is bigger and stronger wins, then we're going down the same road that Canadian football has traveled for decades.

And we all know where its gotten us so far.

Maybe Vancouver and Montreal will have enough vision and balls (at the youth level) to stick with the philosophy that fundamentals and team play are more important than athleticism and trophies.

Canary10
07-23-2012, 08:48 AM
This pisses me off in so many ways. There isn't a single commitment that comes from Toronto FC that should be taken seriously. A year and a half into our new "way of playing," and it's already abandoned for route 1 football.

Meanwhile, I got to sit at home last night and watch a quite enjoyable Vancouver Whitecaps team play at the top team in the league for 80 plus minutes and walk away with a win playing the 4-3-3 our naysayers are telling us is impossible in this league. Fuck that's frustrating.

T-boy
07-23-2012, 08:53 AM
I hope you will use something sharp for your testicles so it wont hurt to much.I watched the game,Junior academy is playing 442,BDK is not coaching,T.Rongen is doing what he is being told from his boss Mariner,Mariner played academy boys to save starters for MLS,Mariner has no interests in academy as Winter did and you will see once this season is finished how many players from academy who are under contact right now will get new contracts for 2013.

Before you offer to cut your testicles drop by and see what academy is doing,show up from time to time and see it yourself,they are practicing and playing Downsview park,it's 5 min from my house,and I'm there with my kid 2-3 time every week.I talk to parents I know some boys who are in academy and the enthusiasm about whole project is on very low lately.

The fact is that every football club in the WORLD has youth players that graduate from their youth system and get through to their first team. No amount of management changes, or changes in style ever stop players from coming through their system. The majority of maprents don't CARE what style of play the first team are playing, or even the current results of the first team - they are just happy to see their young son play for the youth team in a professional football club. TFC have graduated Morgan, Henry, Roberts, Stinson, and Cordon in recent years. And this is all while there has been numerous management changes, and TFC have constantly been the worst team in the whole of the MLS.

The TFC academy will continue to produce young players through to the first team, and no amount of changes in the management will stop that. To say that half the academy players are going to leave is a fair amount of scaremongering, really. TFC were attractive young players AND their parents before Winter and his system arrived. TFC have been producing young players even before the academy was the academy! They will continue to do so in the future.

And to say that Mariner is not interested in the academy is rediculous. The man may have a different approach to Winter, but he's not totally stupid! I do very much doubt he's been to see the academy play very many times yet - he's been on the road with the first team EVERY WEEK since he's been at the club! I would be very worried if he's taking massive amounts of time out from the first team to do other jobs right now - that would be a waste of his limited time. I'm sure the parents of academy players know this as well, unless they are very niaive and disconnected from what he first team are doing, and the first team's schedule.

And why would Mariner talk up some of the academy players if he wasn't interested in them at all?

There seems to be too many contradictions, really.

The academy will continue to produce players for the first team, just like they HAVE done the last two seasons. My testicals will keep firmly attached, I am more than confident :)

Maybe the academy were training 4-4-2 for a week as they DID want the players to know the first team system for the liverpool game. Wouldn't that be totally sensible? Wouldn't you want Pasher and co to KNOW what he first team are playing if they are going to play with them? I'm glad they trained 4-4-2 for a week, that was a great idea! And then the academy players who played against Liverpool fit in very nicely and Mariner didn't have to change around his first team system to fit them in. Well done Mariner and the academy for having the vision to do that in a short time. (there is a different perspective to every story!).

Beach_Red
07-23-2012, 08:54 AM
This pisses me off in so many ways. There isn't a single commitment that comes from Toronto FC that should be taken seriously. A year and a half into our new "way of playing," and it's already abandoned for route 1 football.

Meanwhile, I got to sit at home last night and watch a quite enjoyable Vancouver Whitecaps team play at the top team in the league for 80 plus minutes and walk away with a win playing the 4-3-3 our naysayers are telling us is impossible in this league. Fuck that's frustrating.

Did anyone say it was impossible in this league? What people have been saying is that there is nothing in the history of MLSE to show the kind of committment required - as evidenced by the set-up of the front office of TFC. It was two years ago that people here were talking about the difference between TFC and Vancouver front office set-up (and other teams, things like RSL hiring a former MLS player-turned lawyer as the GM along with Kreiss as the coach).

What people have been saying is that right now it is more difficult to put together that type of team and MLSE have, since the inception of TFC, been looking for the easy way. Look, none of the other teams in this league hired a consultant to tell them what to do.

T-boy
07-23-2012, 08:55 AM
This pisses me off in so many ways. There isn't a single commitment that comes from Toronto FC that should be taken seriously. A year and a half into our new "way of playing," and it's already abandoned for route 1 football.

Meanwhile, I got to sit at home last night and watch a quite enjoyable Vancouver Whitecaps team play at the top team in the league for 80 plus minutes and walk away with a win playing the 4-3-3 our naysayers are telling us is impossible in this league. Fuck that's frustrating.

The last 20 minutes the Whitecaps were playing fairly similar to TFC recently - booting the ball away from their defense! They were under a lot of pressure towards the end.

Canary10
07-23-2012, 08:56 AM
Did anyone say it was impossible in this league? What people have been saying is that there is nothing in the history of MLSE to show the kind of committment required - as evidenced by the set-up of the front office of TFC. It was two years ago that people here were talking about the difference between TFC and Vancouver front office set-up (and other teams, things like RSL hiring a former MLS player-turned lawyer as the GM along with Kreiss as the coach).

What people have been saying is that right now it is more difficult to put together that type of team and MLSE have, since the inception of TFC, been looking for the easy way. Look, none of the other teams in this league hired a consultant to tell them what to do.

Look back in the threads. Tons of people have said that.

Canary10
07-23-2012, 08:58 AM
The last 20 minutes the Whitecaps were playing fairly similar to TFC recently - booting the ball away from their defense! They were under a lot of pressure towards the end.


Like I said, they played at them for 80 minutes. I agree they were under pressure. Top team in the league isn't going to roll over and play dead against a one goal lead! What they did do is attack for much of the game. Us on the other hand, play like frightened turtles.

T-boy
07-23-2012, 08:59 AM
Like I said, they played at them for 80 minutes. I agree they were under pressure. Top team in the league isn't going to roll over and play dead with a one goal lead! What they did do is attack. Us on the other hand, play like frightened turtles.

Did you see the Toronto Colorado game?! :) There wasn't much of frightened turtle play going on there :)

Canary10
07-23-2012, 09:00 AM
Did you see the Toronto Colorado game?! :) There wasn't much of frightened turtle play going on there :)

Yeah, 1 half out of 20 isn't bad, eh?

T-boy
07-23-2012, 09:06 AM
Yeah, 1 half out of 20 isn't bad, eh?

I don't understand the amount of complaining right now, seeing as we've just gone 3 games won in a row, the first time since early 2008! The style of play is totally irrelevant! If we win the next game and go 4 in a row, that's a first in TFC history! :D

newb
07-23-2012, 09:10 AM
Yeah, 1 half out of 20 isn't bad, eh?

I think playing Silva up top had more to do with the fluidity of the formation and effectiveness of the midfield than anything else.

Personally with Hassli signed I would rather see Silva and Hassli up top with Johnson on the bench. Johnson has a lack of vision that is particularly detrimental.

He makes poor runs (or does not make them), he has difficulty recognizing the runs others are making and he rarely plays himself forward on the rare chances that he does pass the ball off to someone else.