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denime
07-09-2012, 05:34 AM
Mornin'




TFC TV



(http://www.torontofc.ca/video) Toronto Hits A Wall In Philly (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/07/toronto-hits-wall-philly)


Reds crash back down with loss to Union (http://www.torontosun.com/2012/07/08/reds-crash-back-down-with-loss-to-union)


TFC outclassed by Union (http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/07/08/toronto_fc_philadelphia_union/)


Union get revenge, blast Toronto FC (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2012/07/08/sp-mls-toronto-fc-philadelphia-union.html)


Toronto FC dominated by Philadelphia Union in 3-0 loss (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/article/1223356--toronto-fc-dominated-by-philadelphia-union-in-3-0-loss)


Toronto FC falls 3-0 on the road to Philadelphia Union (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/toronto-fc-falls-3-0-on-the-road-to-philadelphia-union/article4398596/)




TFC Related Blogs !!



(http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?29582-TFC-MLS-blogs-thread)


SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshine-girl)

Eastend
07-09-2012, 06:22 AM
Well, thank god for Taylor this morning.

Needing help in the back aside, it has been a brutal schedule and something had to give. Playing every 3-4 days for almost a month now....that's just too much with a small squad.

Dom

denime
07-09-2012, 06:54 AM
Dom,I don't think we have small squad.what we have is a coach who does not rotate his players at all,same starting 11 in 23 days and 7 games does not work.we have players on the bench that can play if for no other reasons than to give a rest to our burned off starters.
Henry,JDG,Soolsma,Silva,Harden,Aceval,Stinson,Wili ams, are decent enough for rotation every now and then.

Season is over,give youth a chance,riding old horses all the time does not help when you have such crowded schedule.

Pookie
07-09-2012, 07:16 AM
And if season is over, it begs the question as to why completely abandon the vision you were implementing (using the term you lightly meaning Kilinsmann told them to implement since they werent coming up with it on their own)?

The answer of course was to demonstrate immediate improvement in order to sell tickets based on hope. Being out possessed in all 7 games, out shot in 6 of 7, and stringing together less passes.... Not to mention being further back from the last playoff spot than we were when we started... Getting just 7 of a possible 21 points... Having a starting record worse than Preki and worse than Winter's May and 2011 4 month end of season... And that decision resulting in Plata leaving.... Yeah, I'm not seeing the short term improvement.

And while the executive continue to let the team flounder with in fighting and lack of vision and resources and they keep asking me to pay double what other MLS fans pay to see better, more well run organizations, they won't be seeing my money either.

CoachGT
07-09-2012, 07:22 AM
So the media appear to have given up on the team as well. Each of the articles written by media above are copies of the same article written for Canadian Press. The wording is the same, just the headlines are different.

Oldtimer
07-09-2012, 07:37 AM
One more loss or tie, and Mariner will have had a worse start than Preki.


The score line after the opening half was 2-0. It could well have been 8-0.

What more can you say?

Oldtimer
07-09-2012, 07:41 AM
If you didn't have enough reasons to hate this FO:


NEW YORK -- There will be some Canadian content at the MLS all-star game.

The league announced Sunday that D.C. United midfielder and Toronto native Dwayne De Rosario as well as Vancouver Whitecaps captain and central defender Jay DeMerit will be part of the squad taking on English Premier League team Chelsea on July 25 in Chester, Penn.
De Rosario, the 2011 MLS MVP and Golden Boot winner, finished last season with 16 goals and 12 assists.

So far this year, he has five goals and a league-leading 10 assists while helping D.C. United achieve first place in the Eastern Conference with a 10-5-3 record.



http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/07/08/mls_all_star_roster/?utm_source=Soccer%20Lineup%20RSS-Images&utm_medium=feed&utm_content=De%20Rosario%2C%20Caps%27%20DeMerit%20 among%20MLS%20all-stars

Darlofletch
07-09-2012, 07:42 AM
So the media appear to have given up on the team as well. Each of the articles written by media above are copies of the same article written for Canadian Press. The wording is the same, just the headlines are different.

to the blogs!

__wowza
07-09-2012, 07:52 AM
And if season is over, it begs the question as to why completely abandon the vision you were implementing (using the term you lightly meaning Kilinsmann told them to implement since they werent coming up with it on their own)?

The answer of course was to demonstrate immediate improvement in order to sell tickets based on hope. Being out possessed in all 7 games, out shot in 6 of 7, and stringing together less passes.... Not to mention being further back from the last playoff spot than we were when we started... Getting just 7 of a possible 21 points... Having a starting record worse than Preki and worse than Winter's May and 2011 4 month end of season... And that decision resulting in Plata leaving.... Yeah, I'm not seeing the short term improvement.

And while the executive continue to let the team flounder with in fighting and lack of vision and resources and they keep asking me to pay double what other MLS fans pay to see better, more well run organizations, they won't be seeing my money either.

lest we forget, mariner's "minor tweaks" to the formation. a 4-4-2 hoof instead of a possession based 4-3-3. oh yeah, minor tweaks.

honestly, i get that we're in a rough run of the schedule, but starting the same 11 for the past 3 games, including 2 away games in the course of a week.. what the fuck? people were on winter about being tactically inflexible? we're playing the same 11 with HOOF BALL. our defenders have more ground to cover, and our attackers have to book it up the pitch.

Darlofletch
07-09-2012, 07:57 AM
One more loss or tie, and Mariner will have had a worse start than Preki.

interesting idea, let's compare everyone's first 7 games.

carver 11 points
Preki 9
Cummins 8
Dasovic 7 in 6
Mariner 7
Winter 7
Johnston 6

doing better than mo!

__wowza
07-09-2012, 07:58 AM
oh, and if anyone ever wants a kick in the stats-nuts:



456

Total Pass
264


86%

Passing Accuracy %
71%



the team launches almost 200 passes more than we do and maintains 15% better accuracy. well done reds!

Oldtimer
07-09-2012, 08:03 AM
interesting idea, let's compare everyone's first 7 games.

carver 11 points
Preki 9
Cummins 8
Dasovic 7 in 6
Mariner 7
Winter 7
Johnston 6

doing better than mo!

bwahaha to doing better than Mo!... I was actually giving Mariner 10 games for the comparison to Preki.

So Carver had the best start, eh? That's even with Mo as GM.

Gazza
07-09-2012, 08:36 AM
"Thank god for Taylor."

TOBOR !
07-09-2012, 09:23 AM
Any bets on when Jimmy B gets handed the job ?


We’ve tried nothin’ and we’re all out of ideas.

http://i.thestar.com/images/c7/68/1b57d0af4ca0ab426cc6edffd98c.jpeg

[NBF]
07-09-2012, 09:23 AM
lest we forget, mariner's "minor tweaks" to the formation. a 4-4-2 hoof instead of a possession based 4-3-3. oh yeah, minor tweaks.

honestly, i get that we're in a rough run of the schedule, but starting the same 11 for the past 3 games, including 2 away games in the course of a week.. what the fuck? people were on winter about being tactically inflexible? we're playing the same 11 with HOOF BALL. our defenders have more ground to cover, and our attackers have to book it up the pitch.

When I was watching this game I saw the team playing more like this:

------------------Kocic------------------
Hall----Eckersley--------Emory----Morgan
------Dunfield------------Frings----------
-----------------Avila--------------------
Lambe----------------------------Johnson
---------------Koevermans---------------

In the previous games we were in a 4-4-2, with one winger:

------------------Kocic-------------------
Hall----Eckersley--------Emory-----Morgan
------------------------------------------
-----Dunfield-----Frings----DeGuzman-----
Lambe------------------------------------
---------Koevermans---Johnson-----------

The point I wanna make is that the previous games the looked pretty decent because the hoof ball reached Johnson and Koevermans, Dunfield wasnt left to do more than his abilities and deguzman covered for Morgan. Our midfield wasnt so far back that it would be non existant. The 4-2-3-1 never worked with Deguzman and Frings as the holding midfielders so why would it work now with Dunfield and Frings?

Pookie
07-09-2012, 09:25 AM
I'm thinking that with some of the tired legs, Brennan might soon get promoted to Stength and Conditioning Coach. Either that or Team Doctor.

[NBF]
07-09-2012, 09:31 AM
I'm thinking that with some of the tired legs, Brennan might soon get promoted to Stength and Conditioning Coach. Either that or Team Doctor.

Its not a demotion, its a promotions, so its more like Head Director of Team Strength and Conditioning.:drinking:

Beach_Red
07-09-2012, 09:40 AM
bwahaha to doing better than Mo!... I was actually giving Mariner 10 games for the comparison to Preki.

So Carver had the best start, eh? That's even with Mo as GM.

The Carver debacle was really the turning point with the franchise. That's when we should have realized there was really no one in charge. Look, for all of Mo's faults he was really just an inexperienced guy in way over his head, trying to do a job he should never have been given. For all the talk of a five-year plan there was clearly no "plan" there was just scrambling and the belief that if you just keep going in this league any team can make the playoffs in five years (has anyone coached a team for three years and not made the playoffs?).

If Carver had stayed, even with Mo as a GM, the team would probably have at least made the playoffs. But what happened with Carver (and Dichio and DeRo and so many others) should have tipped us off a lot sooner that the problems with this team started at the very top.

ensco
07-09-2012, 10:04 AM
Any bets on when Jimmy B gets handed the job ?



No, Brennan doesn't help renewals. Probably hurts that. So no chance.

There is only one guy they can appoint from within that might work for the SSHs. We all know who that is. I fear they will do it too.

tfcocd
07-09-2012, 10:11 AM
:facepalm:

LOL ... guess Plata grew a few inches and looks a lot like... JDG


http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/article/1223356--toronto-fc-dominated-by-philadelphia-union-in-3-0-loss





http://i.thestar.com/images/61/ca/f83821e14d5fbcef121136ccf72f.jpg

Yong Kim/AP Toronto FC's Joao Plata, left, kicks the ball against Philadelphia Union's Brian Carroll during the second half of their MLS soccer game in Chester, Pa., on Sunday.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 10:19 AM
lest we forget, mariner's "minor tweaks" to the formation. a 4-4-2 hoof instead of a possession based 4-3-3. oh yeah, minor tweaks.

honestly, i get that we're in a rough run of the schedule, but starting the same 11 for the past 3 games, including 2 away games in the course of a week.. what the fuck? people were on winter about being tactically inflexible? we're playing the same 11 with HOOF BALL. our defenders have more ground to cover, and our attackers have to book it up the pitch.

A lot of people on here were saying that Winter was changing the starting 11 too much earlier in the season. Now its "we are keeping the same starting 11 too much". Fans need to be a little more consistent with the complaints sometimes!

It would take a BRAVE manager to change a starting 11 that is unbeaten 5 games in a row! In hindsight, we are all fantastic football managers, but if I were TFC manager, 5 games unbeaten, I wouldn't want to change the starting 11!

Oldtimer
07-09-2012, 10:21 AM
If Carver had stayed, even with Mo as a GM, the team would probably have at least made the playoffs. But what happened with Carver (and Dichio and DeRo and so many others) should have tipped us off a lot sooner that the problems with this team started at the very top.

I really thought Mo was the problem.
However, I should have looked a bit higher than Mo.


A lot of people on here were saying that Winter was changing the starting 11 too much earlier in the season. Now its "we are keeping the same starting 11 too much". Fans need to be a little more consistent with the complaints sometimes!



It's totally consistent. We lack someone who has the sense to pilot a middle ground. For another problem area, under Winter, TFC was too technical, under Mariner, not technical enough. It's just bad coaching, period. All the talk of "courage" doesn't paper over Mariner's severe shortcomings.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 10:27 AM
I really thought Mo was the problem.
However, I should have looked a bit higher than Mo.



It's totally consistent. We lack someone who has the sense to pilot a middle ground. For another problem area, under Winter, TFC was too technical, under Mariner, not technical enough. It's just bad coaching, period. All the talk of "courage" doesn't paper over Mariner's severe shortcomings.

If you were TFC head coach, and you were unbeaten in 5 games, and you said to your players "how do you feel?" and they all said "good to go" (as they were confident after playing well) - would you keep that starting 11, or change them, even though you are unbeaten?

I'd be extremely hard pressed to change that starting 11, personally.

Anybody like to argue otehrwise (bearing in mind that hindsight is a wonderful thing right now and its easy to answer "yes I would change the team" knowing the result).

Greatest Ripoff
07-09-2012, 10:32 AM
It would take a BRAVE manager to change a starting 11 that is unbeaten 5 games in a row! In hindsight, we are all fantastic football managers, but if I were TFC manager, 5 games unbeaten, I wouldn't want to change the starting 11!

Would it has taken a BRAVE manager to change the starting XI of a tram that had 1 win in 6 matches and has blown two goal leads twice?

T-boy
07-09-2012, 10:35 AM
Would it has taken a BRAVE manager to change the starting XI of a tram that had 1 win in 6 matches and has blown two goal leads twice?

I fear that whatever happens to any TFC manager right now, that it would always be the "wrong decision" for many fans. I don't think TFC is a win-win situation right now, unless we got Sir Alex and we went on a 50 game unbeaten run! I'm sure some people would still consider that a "change in direction" (Sir Alex often players 4-4-2, even though its beautiful to watch)!

Greatest Ripoff
07-09-2012, 10:46 AM
I fear that whatever happens to any TFC manager right now, that it would always be the "wrong decision" for many fans. I don't think TFC is a win-win situation right now, unless we got Sir Alex and we went on a 50 game unbeaten run! I'm sure some people would still consider that a "change in direction" (Sir Alex often players 4-4-2, even though its beautiful to watch)!

No, you are using skewed stats to defend Mariner. You can call it unbeaten in 5 or 1 win in 6 matches and has blown two goal leads twice. And add to that the amount games and travel in the past month you can't help but wonder why there hasn't been any changes made.

So would it take a BRAVE manager to change up the staring XI with all of this kept in mind?

denime
07-09-2012, 10:47 AM
If you were TFC head coach, and you were unbeaten in 5 games, and you said to your players "how do you feel?" and they all said "good to go" (as they were confident after playing well) - would you keep that starting 11, or change them, even though you are unbeaten?

I'd be extremely hard pressed to change that starting 11, personally.

Anybody like to argue otehrwise (bearing in mind that hindsight is a wonderful thing right now and its easy to answer "yes I would change the team" knowing the result).

Go to pre/in game thread tfc @ Philly and you will find so many people actually asking WTF is he doing with same starting 11,and those posts were before the game.This game was 100% Mariners screw up,there in no excuse.

ensco
07-09-2012, 10:56 AM
I really thought Mo was the problem.
However, I should have looked a bit higher than Mo.



thought I'd re-post this .....

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/icons/icon1.png Fake Diary of Mo Johnston - afternoon of October 15, 2010
You all hated me. Like I am some kind of evil goblin or the like.

Aye I’m nobody’s pal. I played rough with the players. I was a cheapskate for the bosses, it’s up to the bosses to decide if they want to be toss a few more of their coins around. Of course these bosses never stepped up.

Some of the players are still crying. Hurling stones at me because I didn’t pay for coaching lessons. Christ what a bunch of numpties. I’ll remember. I didn’t win, so I had to go, but I’ll be back somewhere– getting canned by MLSE is an endorsement of your character.

In the meantime, I’ve got a few other scores to settle. The bosses actually said: “Preki broke up a team that was close to getting there, and Mo let him do it”. You can bet I’ll have something to say about that. I’m the one who thought we were close, but I got ripped when I said so. The bosses didn’t back me up and forced Preki down my throat. I warned them about him, but it didn’t matter. They gave him the keys, let him bring in his guys. Everybody loved it. For a few weeks anyway.

Then this stuff they’re doing with the fans: “we’re sorry, but not really”…“we’re hiring consultants to advise us on the consultants”…there is a god, because they're letting people see what life is like behind closed doors.

So what d’ya think now? Now that you all get to see for yourselves. What I protected you from. Every day.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 10:57 AM
Go to pre/in game thread tfc @ Philly and you will find so many people actually asking WTF is he doing with same starting 11,and those posts were before the game.This game was 100% Mariners screw up,there in no excuse.

And I'm equally as sure if he DID change the starting 11, and we lost, then all you guys would be saying "why the hell did he change an unbeaten starting 11". You see how this is a no win situation?

As I said, its VERY easy to criticise the starting 11 selection in hindsight.

CoachGT
07-09-2012, 10:58 AM
If you were TFC head coach, and you were unbeaten in 5 games, and you said to your players "how do you feel?" and they all said "good to go" (as they were confident after playing well) - would you keep that starting 11, or change them, even though you are unbeaten?

I'd be extremely hard pressed to change that starting 11, personally.

Anybody like to argue otehrwise (bearing in mind that hindsight is a wonderful thing right now and its easy to answer "yes I would change the team" knowing the result).

Having coached and been involved with teams in this position, the answer is yes, I would change things up. As stated in another thread, there are a few players that are not playing particularly consistantly. We've already seen rotation (of sorts) on the back line - mainly to try and find a solid starting 4. Core players would stay in - Frings, Danny K, Ecks, Morgan, Kocic, Johnson. Others can rotate in. JDG/Dunfield. Lambe/Avila/Soolsma/Silva. Hall/Henry/Williams/Emory on the back line. There are also others - Maund and Stinson are capable of taking up the slack in the midfield in a pinch. Our weakest area is up front, with nothing comparable to throw up there, and those are spots that should be subbed off after 60-75 minutes. Maybe a Silva or Soolsma can slot in up front in a pinch, even if only as a sub.

Recognize that not all positions are equal. These guys (the coaching staff) have information about the distances each runs in a game and their frequentcy of touches. My guess would be top in that category might be the attacking mids, followed closely by the fullbacks. Mariner is already doing some of this (managing positions) with his subs, why not take it a step further. Had he done this with Plata, who knows? Maybe he'd still be here!

There is an issue with the roster size, and this is something to consider. We need a 30 man roster at a higher cap to be effective with fixture congestion as we've seen. But everyone in the league faces the same congestion, maybe not quite as much as us, but not that far off.

Forget about hindsight. That is just good football (and roster) management.

ManUtd4ever
07-09-2012, 11:00 AM
No, Brennan doesn't help renewals. Probably hurts that. So no chance.

There is only one guy they can appoint from within that might work for the SSHs. We all know who that is. I fear they will do it too.

I hope Danny has more sense than to willingly step into the line of fire like that. The level of patience with this club is at an all time low, and it would place unrealistic expectations on his shoulders as a rookie coach.

Beach_Red
07-09-2012, 11:07 AM
I hope Danny has more sense than to willingly step into the line of fire like that. The level of patience with this club is at an all time low, and it would place unrealistic expectations on his shoulders for a rookie coach.

And by now anyone looking at the coaching job here knows what a mess the FO is, they know they'll never be able to get much of the roster they want. This is probably the worst possible team for a rookie coach. And yet, who esle but a rookie would take the job?

__wowza
07-09-2012, 11:13 AM
A lot of people on here were saying that Winter was changing the starting 11 too much earlier in the season. Now its "we are keeping the same starting 11 too much". Fans need to be a little more consistent with the complaints sometimes!

It would take a BRAVE manager to change a starting 11 that is unbeaten 5 games in a row! In hindsight, we are all fantastic football managers, but if I were TFC manager, 5 games unbeaten, I wouldn't want to change the starting 11!

uh-oh. here comes the dreaded "a lot of people" that're so widely quoted.
never get tired of a single statement being compared to the entire fanbase.

it's pretty well known that winter made the bulk of his changes in the back. we had something like 8 different pairings in 11 matches, but that didn't mean he didn't swap up top when it was warranted. i didn't find many complains that he was shuffling the back 4 as much as i found complaints that he didn't produce a winning formula yet. and as much as i enjoy the vast generalization, you're missing the point i'm trying to make..

3 games in 2 weeks (2 on the road in incredibly warm conditions) with the same physically demanding style is going to take it's toll on ANY team. unbeaten in 5 has now become winless in 3, with another match in two days and one on the road this weekend. if the team were pulling out convincing wins and playing like a cohesive unit, by all means i'd stay stick with the winning formula, but when we're dropping under 70% pass accuracy and 45% possession, we have a problem. look at what happened to the spurs this season (ie: look at the drop off by the end of the season). any judgment he would've gotten in a losing effort for swapping out a player would be easily answered by him going "yeah, road trip, 3 games in 2 weeks, he was gassed, it was hot.. what do you want?" in the postgame. now he's on the hook for playing a squad that looked dead tired halfway into the match. there's no hindsight here, the players we have on the bench would've been more than capable to at least grind something more outt've this game than 35% possession.

it was an idiotic move.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 11:14 AM
And by now anyone looking at the coaching job here knows what a mess the FO is, they know they'll never be able to get much of the roster they want. This is probably the worst possible team for a rookie coach. And yet, who esle but a rookie would take the job?

Can we really blame the FO for the squad of players we currently have? As far as I'm aware, Winter got all the players he was looking for? (2 DP's, Dutch contingent of players etc). There's no reason to believe that the FO would "stop" any manager getting the players he is asking for, is there?

ag futbol
07-09-2012, 11:16 AM
I think barring some sort of miracle or an absolute truck load of cash, we are screwed in our search for a new coach. Who in their right mind would want to walk into this?

T-boy
07-09-2012, 11:17 AM
uh-oh. here comes the dreaded "a lot of people" that're so widely quoted.
never get tired of a single statement being compared to the entire fanbase.

it's pretty well known that winter made the bulk of his changes in the back. we had something like 8 different pairings in 11 matches, but that didn't mean he didn't swap up top when it was warranted. i didn't find many complains that he was shuffling the back 4 as much as i found complaints that he didn't produce a winning formula yet. and as much as i enjoy the vast generalization, you're missing the point i'm trying to make..

3 games in 2 weeks (2 on the road in incredibly warm conditions) with the same physically demanding style is going to take it's toll on ANY team. unbeaten in 5 has now become winless in 3, with another match in two days and one on the road this weekend. if the team were pulling out convincing wins and playing like a cohesive unit, by all means i'd stay stick with the winning formula, but when we're dropping under 70% pass accuracy and 45% possession, we have a problem. look at what happened to the spurs this season (ie: look at the drop off by the end of the season). any judgment he would've gotten in a losing effort for swapping out a player would be easily answered by him going "yeah, road trip, 3 games in 2 weeks, he was gassed, it was hot.. what do you want?" in the postgame. now he's on the hook for playing a squad that looked dead tired halfway into the match. there's no hindsight here, the players we have on the bench would've been more than capable to at least grind something more outt've this game than 35% possession.

it was an idiotic move.

I'm sorry that I don't have time to go through the individual posts and name every single person to have claimed something. If you wnt that type of forum, then I have to leave this one, as I have a day job, like everybody else. I find picking on me/other people saying "generalisations" is hampering the aruments/postings here sometimes.

Ok, "a lot of people" is a generalisation, but what else do you want me to say? Individual names? I'm sorry I just can't do that! I'm working in an office and tryng to also get myself involved in a good conversation about my football team, I'm sorry I can't be specific every time! :(

ag futbol
07-09-2012, 11:19 AM
Can we really blame the FO for the squad of players we currently have? As far as I'm aware, Winter got all the players he was looking for? (2 DP's, Dutch contingent of players etc). There's no reason to believe that the FO would "stop" any manager getting the players he is asking for, is there?
Uh, yeah, I certainly would. I don't think either guy operated on an island while looking for new talent. Clearly there are players on the roster they are both responsible for.

I want to see what comes in this summer. If he can identify a player or two that improves this team, he can make a case for coming back next year. If he doesn't, I see no reason to let him continue.

__wowza
07-09-2012, 11:20 AM
And I'm equally as sure if he DID change the starting 11, and we lost, then all you guys would be saying "why the hell did he change an unbeaten starting 11". You see how this is a no win situation?

As I said, its VERY easy to criticise the starting 11 selection in hindsight.

see, that's the thing. this isn't a no win situation, and you're trying to refute hindsight with an assumption isn't helping your argument. if he did change the starting XI, you'd see the bulk of people who have an understanding of the game citing the fixture congestion as a reason for someone to be benched. when you've got players (like coach stated) that can swap out to rest others, it's bad managing.

hell, even mariner cited the team being tired as a major reason for the loss. could he not tell they were tired during training? or from speaking with them pre-game? or even think "hey, i started some of these guys (let alone THE WHOLE TEAM) for the past 2 games, maybe i should give a few of them a break", did they all of a sudden hit the pitch and realize they were tired?

T-boy
07-09-2012, 11:24 AM
Uh, yeah, I certainly would. I don't think either guy operated on an island while looking for new talent. Clearly there are players on the roster they are both responsible for.

I want to see what comes in this summer. If he can identify a player or two that improves this team, he can make a case for coming back next year. If he doesn't, I see no reason to let him continue.

I've posted this before, and I'll ask again, if anybody can answer:

Does anybody KNOW which players Mariner has been responsible for bringing into the club. I know of only two FOR SURE - Eckersley, and Lambe. (Ecks played for him at Plymouth, and Mariner was the one who held the press conference for Lambe when he arrived). Which others are Mariner (solely) responsible for? Anybody know? (so we can make a better judgment of the type of players he might bring in future, and better assessment of the players he has personally brought here already).

__wowza
07-09-2012, 11:26 AM
I'm sorry that I don't have time to go through the individual posts and name every single person to have claimed something. If you wnt that type of forum, then I have to leave this one, as I have a day job, like everybody else. I find picking on me/other people saying "generalisations" is hampering the aruments/postings here sometimes.

Ok, "a lot of people" is a generalisation, but what else do you want me to say? Individual names? I'm sorry I just can't do that! I'm working in an office and tryng to also get myself involved in a good conversation about my football team, I'm sorry I can't be specific every time! :(

i don't expect you to do that, and im not expecting you to be specific every time. in the same light, im not expecting you to take one post and compare it to the sentiment of everyone else. trust me, im the same boat you are (work and conversation wise), so im not trying to jump down your throat or anything, my apologies if that's how i'm coming across. it's not my intent.

if it was just something you noticed about me, like if i had a tendency to flip-flop, i'd be cool with you calling me out on it, but i've seen way too many posts with "some people", "fans", "you guys", etc. it tends to make people on here antsy.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 11:26 AM
see, that's the thing. this isn't a no win situation, and you're trying to refute hindsight with an assumption isn't helping your argument. if he did change the starting XI, you'd see the bulk of people who have an understanding of the game citing the fixture congestion as a reason for someone to be benched. when you've got players (like coach stated) that can swap out to rest others, it's bad managing.

hell, even mariner cited the team being tired as a major reason for the loss. could he not tell they were tired during training? or from speaking with them pre-game? or even think "hey, i started some of these guys (let alone THE WHOLE TEAM) for the past 2 games, maybe i should give a few of them a break", did they all of a sudden hit the pitch and realize they were tired?

Having coached kids, its extremely difficult, sometimes, to judge when somebody is fatigued. You ask a player how they are and they are all enthusiastic "I'm GREAT". Then you play them. It's easay, afterwards, to see they were not great at all!

I would judge Mariner on this in the next game, not this one. IF Mariner plays the SAME starting 11 V Vancouver, then clearly he's got a screw loose and he's asking fir trouble. But I want to see that's he's learnt this lesson, and changing the starting 11 for the Whitecaps game.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 11:28 AM
i don't expect you to do that, and im not expecting you to be specific every time. in the same light, im not expecting you to take one post and compare it to the sentiment of everyone else. trust me, im the same boat you are (work and conversation wise), so im not trying to jump down your throat or anything, my apologies if that's how i'm coming across. it's not my intent.

if it was just something you noticed about me, like if i had a tendency to flip-flop, i'd be cool with you calling me out on it, but i've seen way too many posts with "some people", "fans", "you guys", etc. it tends to make people on here antsy.

Fair enough, point taken. (posting on here is a hell of a lot more interesting the work right now, anyways! It's even more interesting that I seem to have the opposite oppinion of "some people" on here too - haha. If I was just posting the same as everybody else right now, it would be rather dull on here!).

Detroit_TFC
07-09-2012, 11:33 AM
Portland Timbers presser today at 5:30p ET. Spencer sacked.

CretanBull
07-09-2012, 11:48 AM
If Carver had stayed, even with Mo as a GM, the team would probably have at least made the playoffs. But what happened with Carver (and Dichio and DeRo and so many others) should have tipped us off a lot sooner that the problems with this team started at the very top.

More than a few people said it at the time...they were just laughed at and marginalized. The situation with Dichio's "health" and the "league" forcing Carver to return to the side lines exposed our FO's lies for the first time. The people who pointed it out were out-numbered 10 to 1 back then, now it's probably 20 to 1 in the other direction.

Yohan
07-09-2012, 11:52 AM
Portland Timbers presser today at 5:30p ET. Spencer sacked.

gotta love that man's passion for the game. hopefully he'll get a new start (maybe NASL?)

Robin Fraser deathwatch is also on

Beach_Red
07-09-2012, 11:52 AM
Can we really blame the FO for the squad of players we currently have? As far as I'm aware, Winter got all the players he was looking for? (2 DP's, Dutch contingent of players etc). There's no reason to believe that the FO would "stop" any manager getting the players he is asking for, is there?

Winter went on record saying he wanted to keep DeRo, front office said no and he was traded away. Would have been a completely different team if Winter had gotten what he wanted.

ag futbol
07-09-2012, 11:55 AM
Portland Timbers presser today at 5:30p ET. Spencer sacked.
Sacked? What does that mean?

I thought it was they were relieving Spencer of his duties after he refused the offer of a different role within the organization. Really, it's a promotion for the assistant!

They also got the timing of the presser all wrong. They should have waited until 1:00 pm on a Friday before the weekend and the day before one of the largest tournaments in all of world football.

#PTFCMAJORANNOUCEMENT

ag futbol
07-09-2012, 11:58 AM
I don't see how John Carver should ever have been considered an answer to anything. Chris Cummings took the same team and got better results out of it, despite basically operating with more constraints than any other TFC manager has ever faced.

I personally thought he was a bit green but could have grown into a decent coach, providing we had someone else to do scouting etc...

ManUtd4ever
07-09-2012, 12:04 PM
Agreed about Cummins. I thought he earned the right to start the following season as head coach. He left with the best record of any TFC coach to date. It's not his fault that Mo Johnston interfered and forced him to play a formation he didn't agree with in that fateful match against NY on the final day of the schedule.

Pookie
07-09-2012, 12:13 PM
I don't see how John Carver should ever have been considered an answer to anything. Chris Cummings took the same team and got better results out of it, despite basically operating with more constraints than any other TFC manager has ever faced.

I personally thought he was a bit green but could have grown into a decent coach, providing we had someone else to do scouting etc...

Let's not forget Cummins' exit interview with KJ in which he highlighted infighting, meddling and a cultural divide within the club. This was Molinaro's story back in 2009 focused more on the locker room than above. Note the comments by Jim Brennan:

...

But Cummins also painted a grim portrait of a franchise that's in a quagmire — a team burdened with backstabbers and bad eggs.
Media speculation has run rampant the past few months about a divisive Toronto FC locker-room with cliques, feuding players and a general lack of team cohesion. Cummins didn't exactly substantiate those claims — he's a decent bloke, as the Brits are fond of saying, and he understands the perils of burning bridges.
But he left no doubt that Toronto FC, which prides itself on its team motto "All For One," has serious player personnel problems.
"Yeah, there is," Cummins told reporters when asked if the club had any bad apples. "Every dressing room has poor characters, and maybe on that side of it I'd deal with certain people a different way.…
"What I didn't like was at times people putting the knife in, backstabbing and talking about people, because we're in this together."
"I don't agree with that," Brennan stated. "I think we've got a good bunch of guys here. People want to say there are bad apples, so be it."Could there be a few rotten apples in the TFC barrel? Not according to team captain Jim Brennan.Johnston said he had no knowledge of such player dissent in the locker-room, and stated that Cummins should have brought that to his attention so it could have been addressed immediately.
Cummins claimed he did tell Johnston and the GM's response was: "You get on with it, you have to deal with it."
For his part, the Englishman admitted he should have taken a more hard-line approach in disciplining the problem players.
"Unfortunately, if you let one or two in there that are not good characters, maybe I shouldn't have let them disrupt things as much as I did," Cummins said.
He also questioned the overall spirit of the roster, suggesting the team could use an injection of character players — a sentiment echoed by veteran Canadian midfielder Dwayne De Rosario, who joined Toronto FC via trade from the Houston Dynamo in the off-season.
De Rosario explained the biggest difference between Houston and Toronto is that the Dynamo had more "spirit and fight" and "you had more hunger and more guys wanting to make a difference" in Houston.
"You can't force guys to have heart, you can't make guys have the desire to win," stated De Rosario. "Either you have it or you don't have it. Fortunately, throughout my career I've been around a lot of players that have had that kind of desire, [but] here it's been a little eye-opener in terms of that."
'We need to change the culture here'Fellow midfielder Sam Cronin spoke openly about one of the club's biggest issues after last Saturday's humiliating 5-0 loss to the last-place New York Red Bulls, a result that effectively ended the Reds' dreams of clinching their first-ever playoff berth.
"More so than anything, we need to change the culture here, make it a winning, passionate group next season. I think it starts with a mentality and a kind of psychology of the team," Cronin said after Saturday's loss.
Johnston played down the rookie's comments, chalking them up to the sting of defeat.
"I think in the heat of the moment we all say things when we don't win, and I think in Saturday's case losing 5-0 in New York was devastating," the GM said.
But Cronin was just as insightful with his assessment of the club's woes on Tuesday, almost 72 hours after the debacle in New York.
"I was speaking about the team, and that as players we need to come into next year and the mentality needs to be different, and we all know that," Cronin explained. "I think the competitiveness and the way we approach every single day and every single game needs to improve."
The most interesting aspect of Cronin's startling indictment is the fact that it comes from a rookie who appears to be wise beyond his 22 years and isn't afraid to admit that all is not well with Toronto FC.
You would have hoped for the team's captain to come out and make such a bold and honest proclamation, to shake the troops up a bit and tell it plain and like it is. But he didn't.
Instead, Brennan chose to play it safe, as usual. The closest thing he said that would even mildly cause a stir was his rather tame comment that "maybe we don't have that urgency and that bit of desire to make the playoffs."
Maybe? No, Jim, there are no maybes about it. Ask Cronin, he'll fill you in.
As for Cummins, his most telling comment was the one he made to CBCSports.ca during a brief phone conversation as he packed to return to England.
"There's a lot more that I could have said but didn't for obvious reasons. Hopefully, people can read between the lines," Cummins stated.
Yes, there's something rotten in the state of Toronto FC.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2009/10/27/sp-mls-torontofc-cummins.html

Beach_Red
07-09-2012, 12:20 PM
I don't see how John Carver should ever have been considered an answer to anything. Chris Cummings took the same team and got better results out of it, despite basically operating with more constraints than any other TFC manager has ever faced.

I personally thought he was a bit green but could have grown into a decent coach, providing we had someone else to do scouting etc...

Not Carver, specifically, but his hiring/firing showed that the front office here was dysfunctional. MLSE put an inexperienced guy "in charge" so that the team could actually be run by someone higher up (as we've seen since). In fact, the first warning sign was when the assistant coach (who came from KC with Mo) left after the first year. It was so easy to say the problem must have been Mo (even though they'd known each other for years) when maybe this was the first time promises of promotion and raises were made by MLSE and not followed through (the first year coaches all got one year contracts and promises - only Mo actually moved his family to Toronto and when the lowball offer came in for yet another one-year contract, the other coaches didn't want to continue to commute from KC under those terms - of course, maybe this is all rumour...).

Oldtimer
07-09-2012, 12:23 PM
If you were TFC head coach, and you were unbeaten in 5 games, and you said to your players "how do you feel?" and they all said "good to go" (as they were confident after playing well) - would you keep that starting 11, or change them, even though you are unbeaten?

I'd be extremely hard pressed to change that starting 11, personally.

Anybody like to argue otehrwise (bearing in mind that hindsight is a wonderful thing right now and its easy to answer "yes I would change the team" knowing the result).




Having coached and been involved with teams in this position, the answer is yes, I would change things up. As stated in another thread, there are a few players that are not playing particularly consistantly. We've already seen rotation (of sorts) on the back line - mainly to try and find a solid starting 4. Core players would stay in - Frings, Danny K, Ecks, Morgan, Kocic, Johnson. Others can rotate in. JDG/Dunfield. Lambe/Avila/Soolsma/Silva. Hall/Henry/Williams/Emory on the back line. There are also others - Maund and Stinson are capable of taking up the slack in the midfield in a pinch. Our weakest area is up front, with nothing comparable to throw up there, and those are spots that should be subbed off after 60-75 minutes. Maybe a Silva or Soolsma can slot in up front in a pinch, even if only as a sub.

Recognize that not all positions are equal. These guys (the coaching staff) have information about the distances each runs in a game and their frequentcy of touches. My guess would be top in that category might be the attacking mids, followed closely by the fullbacks. Mariner is already doing some of this (managing positions) with his subs, why not take it a step further. Had he done this with Plata, who knows? Maybe he'd still be here!

There is an issue with the roster size, and this is something to consider. We need a 30 man roster at a higher cap to be effective with fixture congestion as we've seen. But everyone in the league faces the same congestion, maybe not quite as much as us, but not that far off.

Forget about hindsight. That is just good football (and roster) management.

I've coached a lot in the past, and have done exactly the same thing as Coach.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 01:21 PM
I've coached a lot in the past, and have done exactly the same thing as Coach.

I know its easy to complain about Mariner NOT changing the team for a few games, and there eventually getting a loss "due" to that. But I'll be on the side, right now, that Mariner is still learning on the job. IF he plays the SAME 11 this next game, I would complain like everybody else. But, for the Philly game, I can see the case for AND against keeping the same starting line up. I don't think anybody can win on this argument really. We have NO idea if the result would have been different if the starting 11 would have changed. They guy son here that argue it should have been changed can't prove either way if it would have worked on or.

But like any coach, or manager for any company, you TRY and retain continuety until it doesn't work anymore. NOW, if hasn't worked, you see change. So, I expect there to be a change in the starting 11 for the Whitecaps game. but, personally, I'm not surprised at all that Mariner TRIED to keep faith in the same set of players that got him good results in the games before Philly.

Oldtimer
07-09-2012, 01:23 PM
"learning on the job" :prrr:

T-boy
07-09-2012, 01:37 PM
"learning on the job" :prrr:

Isn't he?

v00d00daddy
07-09-2012, 01:49 PM
I know its easy to complain about Mariner NOT changing the team for a few games, and there eventually getting a loss "due" to that. But I'll be on the side, right now, that Mariner is still learning on the job. IF he plays the SAME 11 this next game, I would complain like everybody else. But, for the Philly game, I can see the case for AND against keeping the same starting line up. I don't think anybody can win on this argument really. We have NO idea if the result would have been different if the starting 11 would have changed. They guy son here that argue it should have been changed can't prove either way if it would have worked on or.

But like any coach, or manager for any company, you TRY and retain continuety until it doesn't work anymore. NOW, if hasn't worked, you see change. So, I expect there to be a change in the starting 11 for the Whitecaps game. but, personally, I'm not surprised at all that Mariner TRIED to keep faith in the same set of players that got him good results in the games before Philly.

Mariner said in his own words that his "Smart coaching staff knew the fatigue was coming" and yet he still trots out the same lineup. That's hard headed stupidity.

I don't think most teams play 7 games in 22 days and play the same starting XI for 3 games straight in the last 9.....even if they've won the last 3. There's always lineup rotation.

Especially teams with players that can easily be subbed in to replace tired players (like JDG for Dunfield and Soolsma for any one of our outside mids or even striker)

As far as I can tell there is nothing that Mariner has done that you're critical of. Strikes me as odd.

Oldtimer
07-09-2012, 01:55 PM
Isn't he?

I'll say he's learning when I see evidence of it. Sucks that ML$E would stick us with yet another inexperienced coach.

Detroit_TFC
07-09-2012, 01:57 PM
Sacked? What does that mean?

I thought it was they were relieving Spencer of his duties after he refused the offer of a different role within the organization. Really, it's a promotion for the assistant!

They also got the timing of the presser all wrong. They should have waited until 1:00 pm on a Friday before the weekend and the day before one of the largest tournaments in all of world football.

#PTFCMAJORANNOUCEMENT

They are still getting the hang of the MLS coaching fandango. Eventually PTFC will be as experienced at it as TFC.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 02:06 PM
Mariner said in his own words that his "Smart coaching staff knew the fatigue was coming" and yet he still trots out the same lineup. That's hard headed stupidity.

I don't think most teams play 7 games in 22 days and play the same starting XI for 3 games straight in the last 9.....even if they've won the last 3. There's always lineup rotation.

Especially teams with players that can easily be subbed in to replace tired players (like JDG for Dunfield and Soolsma for any one of our outside mids or even striker)

As far as I can tell there is nothing that Mariner has done that you're critical of. Strikes me as odd.

If you look back through all my posts on here from the very start of when time began(!), you will see I wasn't very critical of Winter to start with either! I'll give benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise!

Maybe I'm just an easy guy (or an easy manager in my company also!), I will allow a mistake once as its ONCE. When it happens a second time, THEN it starts becoming a pattern. I will criticise when its due. I don't think we can judge a guy accurately over a few weeks, long road trips, and hardly any training sessions with the full first team available.

Maybe I am just an easy guy!

T-boy
07-09-2012, 02:08 PM
I'll say he's learning when I see evidence of it. Sucks that ML$E would stick us with yet another inexperienced coach.

I can agree to this, of course. At least Mariner has SOME knowledge of the MLS, unlike Winter!

Chevy
07-09-2012, 02:36 PM
No, Brennan doesn't help renewals. Probably hurts that. So no chance.

There is only one guy they can appoint from within that might work for the SSHs. We all know who that is. I fear they will do it too.

I'm thinking Jimmy B as head coach with Danny as Assistant. Middle of next season when we're out of the playoff hunt (again). Book it.

CoachGT
07-09-2012, 03:07 PM
I'm thinking Jimmy B as head coach with Danny as Assistant. Middle of next season when we're out of the playoff hunt (again). Book it.

If I were a betting man, I'd lay odds on an established MLS coach already in the organization as next head coach. Rongen.

CoachGT
07-09-2012, 03:16 PM
Having coached kids, its extremely difficult, sometimes, to judge when somebody is fatigued. You ask a player how they are and they are all enthusiastic "I'm GREAT". Then you play them. It's easay, afterwards, to see they were not great at all!

I would judge Mariner on this in the next game, not this one. IF Mariner plays the SAME starting 11 V Vancouver, then clearly he's got a screw loose and he's asking fir trouble. But I want to see that's he's learnt this lesson, and changing the starting 11 for the Whitecaps game.

Bear in mind that Mariner has tools at his disposal that an amateur coach can only dream of. Four or five assistants, all of whom have specific assignments of players on the field. Training staff. Systems measuring the distances each player runs, with statistics available in real time.

Add to that his daily knowledge of the players. And that they are elite athletes, all of whom have undergone a battery of medical tests to determine their fitness levels. And three or for practices a week plus gym time.

There is no excuse at the professional level for not knowing the physical fitness level of players on the pitch.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 03:49 PM
Bear in mind that Mariner has tools at his disposal that an amateur coach can only dream of. Four or five assistants, all of whom have specific assignments of players on the field. Training staff. Systems measuring the distances each player runs, with statistics available in real time.

Add to that his daily knowledge of the players. And that they are elite athletes, all of whom have undergone a battery of medical tests to determine their fitness levels. And three or for practices a week plus gym time.

There is no excuse at the professional level for not knowing the physical fitness level of players on the pitch.

Yes I definitely understand all that. I doubt Mariner has had much time to do a full fitness test on the players. I'm sure they haven't done endurance tests in the last few weeks. With the time they've had, I'd bet they've only been trying to work on tactics and a few systems. They've obviously been working on corners and set pieces in training a lot, and we now look a lot more dangerous on set pieces than before. They're probably doing a lot more attacking overloading than before too, as they seem to be attacking in more numbers than before. Again, I think we need to give Mariner more time to set up the players, including fitness testing mid season. With the mid week games the last 3 weeks, when would he have had a chance to do that?

The team plays Saturday (no training other than light training in the morning), so then no training sunday. They then have monday as one full day to train. Then Tuesday they travel. Game wednesday. Thursday off and travel. Then Friday full day training/more travel.

Where has Mariner had real time to work with the squad over the last few weeks?

Even when he DID have some time (the second half of the international break) - he was missing key players due to the international duty.

That's hardly been the easiest time to work with your squad, let alone do fitness training and testing! :s

denime
07-09-2012, 04:01 PM
Yes I definitely understand all that. I doubt Mariner has had much time to do a full fitness test on the players. I'm sure they haven't done endurance tests in the last few weeks. With the time they've had, I'd bet they've only been trying to work on tactics and a few systems. They've obviously been working on corners and set pieces in training a lot, and we now look a lot more dangerous on set pieces than before. They're probably doing a lot more attacking overloading than before too, as they seem to be attacking in more numbers than before. Again, I think we need to give Mariner more time to set up the players, including fitness testing mid season. With the mid week games the last 3 weeks, when would he have had a chance to do that?

The team plays Saturday (no training other than light training in the morning), so then no training sunday. They then have monday as one full day to train. Then Tuesday they travel. Game wednesday. Thursday off and travel. Then Friday full day training/more travel.

Where has Mariner had real time to work with the squad over the last few weeks?

Even when he DID have some time (the second half of the international break) - he was missing key players due to the international duty.

That's hardly been the easiest time to work with your squad, let alone do fitness training and testing! :s

Man,stop making lame excuses for Mariner even he is getting embarrassed by them.

Mariner did not get new team on July 7th,he had all data prior to that date,he had 14 days off before 1st game,he wa suppose to do tweaking nmot teaching them new system,during Int.break TFC missed Key players,R.Johnson,JDG and Morgan are key players for TFC.

It is not Mariner's job to do the testing anyway,he has his staff to do that,and if Mariner did not have a time to get fitness test with his players,how the fuck you expect from him to sign or trade anyone in the next 18 days,oh yeah he has his retard buddy Cockrane to help him with new players.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 06:53 PM
Man,stop making lame excuses for Mariner even he is getting embarrassed by them.

Mariner did not get new team on July 7th,he had all data prior to that date,he had 14 days off before 1st game,he wa suppose to do tweaking nmot teaching them new system,during Int.break TFC missed Key players,R.Johnson,JDG and Morgan are key players for TFC.

It is not Mariner's job to do the testing anyway,he has his staff to do that,and if Mariner did not have a time to get fitness test with his players,how the fuck you expect from him to sign or trade anyone in the next 18 days,oh yeah he has his retard buddy Cockrane to help him with new players.

The aggressive responses today are too much. I have no idea why you/some others are so pissed off that you are attacking me/other people on here?

My excuses aren't lame, they are reasoned and intellegent. If you can't see that I'm putting together a sound argument, then I have no idea how to make my point.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 06:59 PM
I don't understand the general mentality that Winter gets a year and half to "prove" himself, and some people wanted to give him even more time than that. And yet the same people won't give Mariner a month? Why give one guy years, possibly, and another guy just one month to make a judgement? What did Winter do, exactly, that made you so sure that he was "the man for the job", even if the results didn't show that, and Mariner not do? I really don't understand the mentality at all.

Also, I don't understand the name calling on this forum right now. I, and a few others, are trying to make sound reasoned argument as to why we should be giving Mariner more time. But myself, and others seem to be constantly dodging bullets and defending ourselves, even though we are making intellegent informed answers.

[NBF]
07-09-2012, 07:29 PM
I don't understand the general mentality that Winter gets a year and half to "prove" himself, and some people wanted to give him even more time than that. And yet the same people won't give Mariner a month? Why give one guy years, possibly, and another guy just one month to make a judgement? What did Winter do, exactly, that made you so sure that he was "the man for the job", even if the results didn't show that, and Mariner not do? I really don't understand the mentality at all.

Also, I don't understand the name calling on this forum right now. I, and a few others, are trying to make sound reasoned argument as to why we should be giving Mariner more time. But myself, and others seem to be constantly dodging bullets and defending ourselves, even though we are making intellegent informed answers.

Aron Winter represented the last straw with alot of the fans that have been fans for years, some since 2007, you can call Aron Winter the last brainstorm to turn things around and if he couldnt do it, than it falls flat on Tom Anselmi, Earl Cochrane, Paul Mariner because its ignorant to think that they were on the sidelines doing nothing the entire time. Winter, also represents a legitimate football phylosophy that people respect, which is "total football", and the footie fans know that anyone with as many caps by the Dutch National team and youth academy coach at Ajax demands respect.

Do you have multiple nicknames that you use to prove your point? As far as bullets and dodging, you should probably read some of the posts prior to posting to understand the discussion and sentiment of most people who have been following the team since 2007. Basically, if your sensative dont post your thoughts on a forum for people to judge. People are pissed and if you're not pissed at the FO than you havent suffered enough.

cochrdoc
07-09-2012, 07:35 PM
Winter would have been sacked along time ago with results like he had if he was in Europe.He never changed his system and we got pummelled.I don`t think our keepers enjoyed pulling the ball out of the net so often.The talent on the team is not good enough.Lambe is a bench player, we needed to bring in starters who could make an impact.It was not done.For a team who started 1-9 you think plans would have been in place for the summer transfer window.Release more players bring in 3-5 starting caliber players.So far there are no players on the horizon.If these acedemy kids are not good enough to get minutes, let them go.I get a kick out people who think certain players will help us.Did we ever win with Cann.Bring back attakora.WE didn`t win with him either.We need an upgrade.Several people have said other teams seem to find talent.Look what we brought in .B caliber players.

v00d00daddy
07-09-2012, 07:48 PM
I don't understand the general mentality that Winter gets a year and half to "prove" himself, and some people wanted to give him even more time than that. And yet the same people won't give Mariner a month? Why give one guy years, possibly, and another guy just one month to make a judgement? What did Winter do, exactly, that made you so sure that he was "the man for the job", even if the results didn't show that, and Mariner not do? I really don't understand the mentality at all.

Okay...without getting upset. For me it wasn't about giving Winter more time because he was the right guy for the job. It was a matter of keeping him or replacing him with someone who could do his job properly. His job being getting the team playing the decided upon system AND getting results doing so. Had they found a coach to replace Winter that could maintain the philosophy I'd have had no problem with Winters firing.

What made (and continues to make) no sense is the promotion of a guy who has no interest in playing a possession based game. On top of that he was supposed to be tasked with finding the club players to play a possession based game. Now....who knows for sure who brought the players in and who had the final say but at this point its pretty irrelevant because Mariners players selection now shows that he prefers less skilled players. There's no other way to explain his constant playing of Dunfield and omission of Soolsma.


Also, I don't understand the name calling on this forum right now. I, and a few others, are trying to make sound reasoned argument as to why we should be giving Mariner more time. But myself, and others seem to be constantly dodging bullets and defending ourselves, even though we are making intellegent informed answers.

You're defending yourself because you're sticking to your guns so steadfastly that you're ignoring obvious things (like Mariners awful decision not to rest players) or twisting shitty results (i.e.: trying to argue that they "tried" to play possession football last night).

I think your pride is getting the better of you because you seem to think keeping the same opinion is more important than taking in what's happening in front of your eyes and assessing things as objectively as you can.

Please explain this:

Mariner says that he and the coaching staff (which he called smart) saw the fatigue issues coming...yet he made no adjustments. Not one. Not until the game was already lost.

And make no mistake...that game was over at half time. Philly is a bad team and they were afforded the luxury of shutting things down at half time because they had no fear of TFC. None.

jloome
07-09-2012, 07:50 PM
The aggressive responses today are too much. I have no idea why you/some others are so pissed off that you are attacking me/other people on here?

My excuses aren't lame, they are reasoned and intellegent. If you can't see that I'm putting together a sound argument, then I have no idea how to make my point.

This is the problem dude: if 49 0f 50 people something one way, usually it's that way. And your arguments aren't reasoned or sound, they're like the script you'd write for the head of the Paul Mariner fan club.

Seriously. People aren't getting tense because you like him or want to give him a chance; I want to give him a chance; lots of people want to give him a chance.

But giving someone a chance isn't the same as being willfully blind. If you say "I'm going to give him 'x' many games before anything counts", what you're saying is you're going to ignore rational suggestions that he's making bad choices, further extending your existing bias.

Be objective, man! I've said repeatedly on here I saw more fight from them in the first four under Mariner than at any time under Winter. I had some optimism. But objectivity demands I look at what's happened in the last couple of games.

When Winter left, we had a system they'd just gotten comfortable in. When it became clear Winter wasn't motivating the team, they had team meetings between players and coaches and agreed to press higher and be more defensively aggressive.

It worked. We won a pair of important games and had upswing. I expected Mariner to stick to his word and "tweak"; not dissemble a working, control based system.

Just saying "Well, I'm an optimist" and smiling sunnily is the same as being blissfully ignorant. That kind of support doesn't help the team in the long run, and it certainly doesn't endear much solidarity among supporters.

v00d00daddy
07-09-2012, 07:53 PM
Winter would have been sacked along time ago with results like he had if he was in Europe.He never changed his system and we got pummelled.I don`t think our keepers enjoyed pulling the ball out of the net so often.The talent on the team is not good enough.Lambe is a bench player, we needed to bring in starters who could make an impact.It was not done.For a team who started 1-9 you think plans would have been in place for the summer transfer window.Release more players bring in 3-5 starting caliber players.So far there are no players on the horizon.If these acedemy kids are not good enough to get minutes, let them go.I get a kick out people who think certain players will help us.Did we ever win with Cann.Bring back attakora.WE didn`t win with him either.We need an upgrade.Several people have said other teams seem to find talent.Look what we brought in .B caliber players.

One more thing they could have added to the "to do list" when they saw Winters ship sinking:

-start looking for a new coach to get the team playing the desired style but also getting results. This could have been done at 0-6. That would have given them a full 6 weeks before the game where Mariner took over. 4 weeks of finding a new coach and a two week layoff (after the first Philly game) for the new guy to train with the team.

Instead they promote a guy who had a hand on the steering wheel of the car that drove off the cliff.

Complete incompetence from the FO.

All the FO is good at is duping the supporters into believing they know how to turn this team around...usually around ticket renewal time.

CoachGT
07-09-2012, 08:40 PM
The aggressive responses today are too much. I have no idea why you/some others are so pissed off that you are attacking me/other people on here?

My excuses aren't lame, they are reasoned and intellegent. If you can't see that I'm putting together a sound argument, then I have no idea how to make my point.

I'm not trying to be aggressive in any way. I'm only trying to point a few things out. I'm ready to give Mariner some time, but recognize that he hasn't been in a vacuum, he's been an integral part of this. For that reason, he's not going to get half a season to prove himself. His own comments were that "tweeks" to the existing system are all that is needed, not a complete reset. It is still too early to judge, but at this point, his comment of "tweeks" doesn't seem to be the case. Tweeks to a system can be done in relatively few training sessions, whereas a complete overhaul may take a season or more.

On any team like this, the coaching staff includes the GM, assistant GM, scouts and the training staff as well as the coaches and assistants. They are all part of the process of player evaluation and selection - John Molinaro has mentioned as much in some of his commentary about Nesta. There is no one person responsible for a player - it is the entire group that makes a determination. It then falls on the GM to negotiate terms, including salary and bonuses. If it can't be done to mutually acceptable terms, then it doesn't happen.

But the decision to bring a player, any player, into a club is a joint decision. Some people, like the head coach or GM, may have a veto, but that is usually a last resort option and is rarely used unless someone with it thinks there is a valid reason to use it.

You've asked the question in another thread about who Mariner is responsible for bringing in - the answer is everyone and no-one. He's been involved in every decision, albeit not alone. So he's had the chance to sit down and evaluate every player.

My point of this post is to say that if I've come across as aggressive, it was unintentional. It doesn't change the facts and opinions I've stated. I like Paul Mariner. I'm not ready to pass judgment yet, but there were clear mistakes made this past weekend. If he learns from them, great, if not, then we'll be looking at another new coach inside of six months.

Blizzard
07-09-2012, 08:44 PM
Go to pre/in game thread tfc @ Philly and you will find so many people actually asking WTF is he doing with same starting 11,and those posts were before the game.This game was 100% Mariners screw up,there in no excuse.

It's amusing how a "fake diary" can have so much truth to it.

denime
07-09-2012, 08:55 PM
Let's not forget Cummins' exit interview with KJ in which he highlighted infighting, meddling and a cultural divide within the club. This was Molinaro's story back in 2009 focused more on the locker room than above. Note the comments by Jim Brennan:

...

But Cummins also painted a grim portrait of a franchise that's in a quagmire — a team burdened with backstabbers and bad eggs.
Media speculation has run rampant the past few months about a divisive Toronto FC locker-room with cliques, feuding players and a general lack of team cohesion. Cummins didn't exactly substantiate those claims — he's a decent bloke, as the Brits are fond of saying, and he understands the perils of burning bridges.
But he left no doubt that Toronto FC, which prides itself on its team motto "All For One," has serious player personnel problems.
"Yeah, there is," Cummins told reporters when asked if the club had any bad apples. "Every dressing room has poor characters, and maybe on that side of it I'd deal with certain people a different way.…
"What I didn't like was at times people putting the knife in, backstabbing and talking about people, because we're in this together."
"I don't agree with that," Brennan stated. "I think we've got a good bunch of guys here. People want to say there are bad apples, so be it."Could there be a few rotten apples in the TFC barrel? Not according to team captain Jim Brennan.

Johnston said he had no knowledge of such player dissent in the locker-room, and stated that Cummins should have brought that to his attention so it could have been addressed immediately.
Cummins claimed he did tell Johnston and the GM's response was: "You get on with it, you have to deal with it."
For his part, the Englishman admitted he should have taken a more hard-line approach in disciplining the problem players.
"Unfortunately, if you let one or two in there that are not good characters, maybe I shouldn't have let them disrupt things as much as I did," Cummins said.
He also questioned the overall spirit of the roster, suggesting the team could use an injection of character players — a sentiment echoed by veteran Canadian midfielder Dwayne De Rosario, who joined Toronto FC via trade from the Houston Dynamo in the off-season.
De Rosario explained the biggest difference between Houston and Toronto is that the Dynamo had more "spirit and fight" and "you had more hunger and more guys wanting to make a difference" in Houston.
"You can't force guys to have heart, you can't make guys have the desire to win," stated De Rosario. "Either you have it or you don't have it. Fortunately, throughout my career I've been around a lot of players that have had that kind of desire, [but] here it's been a little eye-opener in terms of that."
'We need to change the culture here'

Fellow midfielder Sam Cronin spoke openly about one of the club's biggest issues after last Saturday's humiliating 5-0 loss to the last-place New York Red Bulls, a result that effectively ended the Reds' dreams of clinching their first-ever playoff berth.
"More so than anything, we need to change the culture here, make it a winning, passionate group next season. I think it starts with a mentality and a kind of psychology of the team," Cronin said after Saturday's loss.
Johnston played down the rookie's comments, chalking them up to the sting of defeat.
"I think in the heat of the moment we all say things when we don't win, and I think in Saturday's case losing 5-0 in New York was devastating," the GM said.
But Cronin was just as insightful with his assessment of the club's woes on Tuesday, almost 72 hours after the debacle in New York.
"I was speaking about the team, and that as players we need to come into next year and the mentality needs to be different, and we all know that," Cronin explained. "I think the competitiveness and the way we approach every single day and every single game needs to improve."
The most interesting aspect of Cronin's startling indictment is the fact that it comes from a rookie who appears to be wise beyond his 22 years and isn't afraid to admit that all is not well with Toronto FC.
You would have hoped for the team's captain to come out and make such a bold and honest proclamation, to shake the troops up a bit and tell it plain and like it is. But he didn't.
Instead, Brennan chose to play it safe, as usual. The closest thing he said that would even mildly cause a stir was his rather tame comment that "maybe we don't have that urgency and that bit of desire to make the playoffs."
Maybe? No, Jim, there are no maybes about it. Ask Cronin, he'll fill you in.
As for Cummins, his most telling comment was the one he made to CBCSports.ca during a brief phone conversation as he packed to return to England.
"There's a lot more that I could have said but didn't for obvious reasons. Hopefully, people can read between the lines," Cummins stated.
Yes, there's something rotten in the state of Toronto FC.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2009/10/27/sp-mls-torontofc-cummins.html

And now we have Jimmy YES boy on the bench teaching Frings how to play soccer.:facepalm:

Richard
07-09-2012, 09:18 PM
This club is so depressing. Its been a borken record for six years and it does not look like its going to be fixed anytime soon. There is so much wrong with this club and we have the best supporters, I applaud all the hardcore guys for going to games but i dont know how you guys can do it. If things dont change with new ownership i think we will seriously see this franchise go down the tube real fast.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 09:38 PM
I'm not trying to be aggressive in any way. I'm only trying to point a few things out. I'm ready to give Mariner some time, but recognize that he hasn't been in a vacuum, he's been an integral part of this. For that reason, he's not going to get half a season to prove himself. His own comments were that "tweeks" to the existing system are all that is needed, not a complete reset. It is still too early to judge, but at this point, his comment of "tweeks" doesn't seem to be the case. Tweeks to a system can be done in relatively few training sessions, whereas a complete overhaul may take a season or more.

On any team like this, the coaching staff includes the GM, assistant GM, scouts and the training staff as well as the coaches and assistants. They are all part of the process of player evaluation and selection - John Molinaro has mentioned as much in some of his commentary about Nesta. There is no one person responsible for a player - it is the entire group that makes a determination. It then falls on the GM to negotiate terms, including salary and bonuses. If it can't be done to mutually acceptable terms, then it doesn't happen.

But the decision to bring a player, any player, into a club is a joint decision. Some people, like the head coach or GM, may have a veto, but that is usually a last resort option and is rarely used unless someone with it thinks there is a valid reason to use it.

You've asked the question in another thread about who Mariner is responsible for bringing in - the answer is everyone and no-one. He's been involved in every decision, albeit not alone. So he's had the chance to sit down and evaluate every player.

My point of this post is to say that if I've come across as aggressive, it was unintentional. It doesn't change the facts and opinions I've stated. I like Paul Mariner. I'm not ready to pass judgment yet, but there were clear mistakes made this past weekend. If he learns from them, great, if not, then we'll be looking at another new coach inside of six months.

Good post and thanks for the well thouught out, and reason, arguments. If there were more posts like this from everybody here, I think it would be a better place :)

FWIW, I pretty much agree with everything you say. The one thing I always think though, is that player's brought into the club should fall solely on the head coach/manager. The manager is the one who is, really, judged the most by the players they bring in. I KNOW its usually a joint effort by a few people. But managers are the ones who live and die by the sword, and that sword is usually player acquisitions. If the wrong players are brought in, and can't play the way the manager wants them to, then that's down to the manager in the end of the long day.

I think "some" people on here vastly over simplify their arguments about football. There is MUCH more that goes into a football club/team than simply "Dunfield shouldn't be playing" or "why didn't he sub earlier". We (the fans) don't have a clue about most of the goings on in the background. Plays could be sick, on ad off day, fitness issues. These guys are also human and suffer human issues (Nana Attackora is a prime example - lots of people over simplified "why did they let him go? they are idiots" not knowing the background to his personal situation.

I wasn't having a go at you, necessarily, but the people who come on here with a one line reply saying "that's stupid, mariner is clueless". Then vanish like its "big and clever". A lot of people on here like to really discuss football and tactics, which is obviously refreshing and what I like to see.

BHTC Mike
07-09-2012, 10:45 PM
;1509118']Aron Winter represented the last straw with alot of the fans that have been fans for years, some since 2007, you can call Aron Winter the last brainstorm to turn things around and if he couldnt do it, than it falls flat on Tom Anselmi, Earl Cochrane, Paul Mariner because its ignorant to think that they were on the sidelines doing nothing the entire time.
It's Paul Mariner's fault Aron Winter didn't succeed? What else is he responsible for that we've haven't heard about? Global warming?


;1509118']Winter, also represents a legitimate football phylosophy that people respect, which is "total football", and the footie fans know that anyone with as many caps by the Dutch National team and youth academy coach at Ajax demands respect.
And Mariner must represent and illegitimate philosophy that people disrespect, which is "MLS football", and the footie fans know that anyone with as many caps from the English national team, a UEFA Cup winners medal (back whent that was a much harder trophy to win) under Bobby Robson, and a long successful assistant stint with Steve Nicol at New England deserves nothing but disrespect.

Look, in the end, pedigree as a player means nothing and will have no influence on whether Paul Mariner is successful or not. But the idea that Mariner is some complete nobody who never played at the highest levels himself is profoundly ignorant.

Here's him scoring on a bunch of nobodies you probably never heard of:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEXrxuvMIek

Oldtimer
07-10-2012, 07:18 AM
^ Mariner's credentials as a player are fantastic. As were Aron Winter's.



If I were a betting man, I'd lay odds on an established MLS coach already in the organization as next head coach. Rongen.

I'd do the same... the only question is, does Rongen want the job? He has a great job working with the youth without the fear that Tommy A. will suddenly cut him loose the first losing streak that he has.

T-boy
07-10-2012, 10:03 AM
^ Mariner's credentials as a player are fantastic. As were Aron Winter's.




I'd do the same... the only question is, does Rongen want the job? He has a great job working with the youth without the fear that Tommy A. will suddenly cut him loose the first losing streak that he has.

I'd prefer Rongen stay with the youth, to be honest. He has a good record of working with youngsters, and it would be for the long term good of TFC and Canadian football if he kept training the skills to the academy.