PRE/IN/POST GAME TFC @ PHILY, Sunday, July 8th @ 4:00pm

[DaBandit]

TFC already tried to pull the home grown player card with Kyle,but so did Montreal and Vancouver too,and MLS told all three clubs to fuck off it wont happen.

Top 3 pick was mentioned last week when several NCAA coaches spent 2 weeks in Sigma soccer camp,it is not official but those are expectations from NCAA coaches and his agent.

just so many bizarre rules in this league.. mysterious cap and allocation amounts, home grown status.. hard to follow all the nonsense, just give me a good team to cheer for and some enjoyable footie to watch

[Carts]

At least we had a chance to score a meaningless goal...

[TFC07]

Fire Mariner and his side kick

[OgtheDim]

To be fair, Ecks was our only really decent defender last season. We need a DP CD to pair with him, but Mariner seems to believe defence begins at the front.

[[NBF]]

can we just start playing guys like Stinson, Cordon, and Makubuya? what's there to lose? might as well give them a look and some mls experience.

Stinson i believe is the only on the bench

[denime]

The only thing worse than the players that have been brought in under Mariner's watch is the cost to get them:

Ecks - 390K salary. The 2nd most expensive defender in my MLS who just boots the ball.
Plata - 500K to get him after 1 effective season
Hall - A large salary for a guy FC Dallas fans couldnt say enough bad things about when he played.

So this is the man who is going to fix things for TFC?

Winter,I saw him yesterday in Yorkville late afternoon/evening.By the time I got my cell ready to take a picture he was gone.Maybe Anslemi brings him back to save his sorry ass again.

[azorean19]

Very poor on so many levels today. Many players have individual bad games. Midfield not even attempting to cut out passing lanes. Defenders not aware of anyone running off their shoulder or behind them. No real threats offensively.

Nothing was good today.

It is NOT only today, that is the problem. We're fooling ourselves if we think think what we've seen in recent weeks is improvement, more like circumstance.

[LittleOzzy]

Winter should have been allowed to at least finish the season. He may not have been great, but he is better than this shit. Would have also given us time to find someone else from outside the MLSE inner circle.

[Oldtimer]

Ecks only looks bad because of how Mariner is playing him. He's actually a decent enough player.

[[NBF]]

Winter,I saw him yesterday in Yorkville late afternoon/evening.By the time I got my cell ready to take a picture he was gone.Maybe Anslemi brings him back to save his sorry ass again.

Good thing you didnt, that would have gone bad if you were mistaken.....LOLOLOL

[v00d00daddy]

Mariner showing his world class sideline masseuse skills. LOL

[Soccerpro]

Can we not make the smart move and try to hire an established MLS head coach like Kreis or Vermes now? TFC have shown they love to waste money, give their clubs whatever they want to sign them.

[ag futbol]

can we just start playing guys like Stinson, Cordon, and Makubuya? what's there to lose? might as well give them a look and some mls experience.
Well not only that, but these guys have been with the team a little while now. It's probably a good idea to start eveluating whether they are the prospects we want to place our chips on or whether there are more guys coming through the academy we can benefit from.

[Soccerpro]

Ecks only looks bad because of how Mariner is playing him. He's actually a decent enough player.

Decent at defending, yes. I like his speed too. What I don't like is that he gives away possession needlessly all the time.

[[NBF]]

Can we not make the smart move and try to hire an established MLS head coach like Kreis or Vermes now? TFC have shown they love to waste money, give their clubs whatever they want to sign them.

They're no different than Mo Johnston or Paul Mariner.

[Oldtimer]

Can we not make the smart move and try to hire an established MLS head coach like Kreis or Vermes now? TFC have shown they love to waste money, give their clubs whatever they want to sign them.

Who would come to work under Anselmi, when they will be only given max 1 year to totally turn around the Titanic? Anselmi has to go first.

[Soccerpro]

;1508679']They're no different than Mo Johnston or Paul Mariner.

Really how did Mo Johnson do as a MLS head coach?
Was Paul Mariner ever a head coach in MLS?

[Beach_Red]

Decent at defending, yes. I like his speed too. What I don't like is that he gives away possession needlessly all the time.

Well, everyone did today. Even Kouvermanns gave the ball away far more often today than... well, probably ever before.

But what's that status on Dicoy Williams, will he be back soon?

[ag futbol]

Well this ref just proved he has no idea what he's doing. I know it's 3 nil and all, but that doesn't mean you duff the stoppage time.

[azorean19]

Mariner showing his world class sideline masseuse skills. LOL

hhhahha...baffoon like, No fan of Winter here, BUT i would take him any day over Mariner.

[gracos]

hang your heads in shame TFC, probably the worst game of the entire season

[Soccerpro]

Well, everyone did today. Even Kouvermanns gave the ball away far more often today than... well, probably ever before.

But what's that status on Dicoy Williams, will he be back soon?

Key word is today. Ecks gives the ball away EVERY SINGLE GAME.

[Red CB Toronto]

Thank god I woke up yesterday morning and decided to bail on making the trek down to Philly for the game, even had the mega bus ticket in hand , just did not feel right about it, most because of what people posted about the area of town the stadium is in, a war zone of sorts.

[[NBF]]

Really how did Mo Johnson do as a MLS head coach?
Was Paul Mariner ever a head coach?

bad enough that you can get banned from the forum for mentioning his return. Mariner is sucking hard now.

[TFC07]

Ecks only looks bad because of how Mariner is playing him. He's actually a decent enough player.

Ecks isn't worth $390K though. We can get a better defender (or couple of decent players) for that much money.

[Beach_Red]

Key word is today. Ecks gives the ball away EVERY SINGLE GAME.

Not nearly as much when he's not playing out of position. Of course, it's fair to ask why he's being played out of position, the injured players have been out long term and the situation hasn't been dealt with.

[azorean19]

Ecks isn't worth $390K though. We can get a better defender (or couple of decent players) for that much money.

Truth....

[denime]

Philly fires their coach and they win 3 games.

We fire ours and we're still shitter than ever.

True,but here is the difference.

Philly hires a coach who follows the system and formation from previous coach,his assistant,gives him Interim coach title,so he does some tweaks and team is performing while still going forward with their vision.

TFC gives job to players development/scouting manager who does not believe in vision and what is even worst even if he does believe he can't coach it, since his all life he played exact opposite of the club vision,and he gets full time job with 3 years extension to sweet the deal,he decides to tweak it by changing the whole system and exactly 1 month later and 7 games into his new coaching gig he is 1-2-4,while previous coach end up in his last month with 3-2-2.

Great job TFC FO clowns,great fucking job.

[Beach_Red]

Ecks isn't worth $390K though. We can get a better defender (or couple of decent players) for that much money.

Wel, maybe some teams can, but what makes you think we can?

[OgtheDim]

Ecks isn't worth $390K though. We can get a better defender (or couple of decent players) for that much money.


Can...yes.

Will...never.

Until Rogers/Bell takes over and give these guys enough rope to hang themselves and then ABC and Mariner are out, that will always be a can and never a will.

[Code Red]

More hoofball please.

[[NBF]]

Sell the team to David beckham he can afford it.

[azorean19]

We lost 3-0 to the Union...enough said

[Furtado91]

One Thing i have not heard in terms of Criticism about Mariner, Is how he plays the SAME DAMN Starting Xl all the damn time. The same 11 have been playing the last 3 or so games, you know they will be tired why not change it up, Get Soolsma get other people in those positions for crying out loud, its not rocket science that playing that hectic schedule, your gonna be tired and not perform at your best.

But Mariner jsut looks out for his buddies not the club, Hes as bad as they come, At least Winter seemed to be fair and changed things up now and again. Also that Hoofball was just fucking god awful, At least it would be acceptable if the ball went to the player half the time. I Can't see myself liking Mariner as Im seeing predictable football that every team we face is able to easily maneuver around and counter, and Some serious favourtism that is affecting the team.

[Tee Ef See]

To early to start getting excited about Zavaleta or Gentile?

[ManUtd4ever]

The backline was awful today, really let the team down. The whole team was lethargic, and could have used a few fresh faces in the starting lineup.

[DaBandit]

True,but here is the difference.

Philly hires a coach who follows the system and formation from previous coach,his assistant,gives him Interim coach title,so he does some tweaks and team is performing while still going forward with their vision.

TFC gives job to players development/scouting manager who does not believe in vision and what is even worst even if he does believe he can't coach it, since his all life he played exact opposite of the club vision,and he gets full time job with 3 years extension to sweet the deal,he decides to tweak it by changing the whole system and exactly 1 month later and 7 games into his new coaching gig he is 1-2-4,while previous coach end up in his last month with 3-2-2.

Great job TFC FO clowns,great fucking job.

WTF??? I didn't realize this, this FO is a joke... All these idiots need to go and the sooner the better..

So how many coaches are we still paying? Mo? Preki? Carver? Winter for sure..

[OgtheDim]

Part of me is thinking this is just setting us up for some weird and wonderful result on Wednesday. Losing like that to Vancouver at home would be soul destroying.

[tfc2008]

Ohhhh guys wait 3 more months then you can buy your tickets for season 7:canada:

[azorean19]

One Thing i have not heard in terms of Criticism about Mariner, Is how he plays the SAME DAMN Starting Xl all the damn time. The same 11 have been playing the last 3 or so games, you know they will be tired why not change it up, Get Soolsma get other people in those positions for crying out loud, its not rocket science that playing that hectic schedule, your gonna be tired and not perform at your best.

But Mariner jsut looks out for his buddies not the club, Hes as bad as they come, At least Winter seemed to be fair and changed things up now and again. Also that Hoofball was just fucking god awful, At least it would be acceptable if the ball went to the player half the time. I Can't see myself liking Mariner as Im seeing predictable football that every team we face is able to easily maneuver around and counter, and Some serious favourtism that is affecting the team.

He did sub Dunfield though....

The only guy in the WORLD that can't see Dunfield is shit, and he happens to be our coach...lol

[tfc2008]

Bytheway YES we are the WORST team in the east

[Furtado91]

I know what will make us fans happy again............................................. ............... More Dancers during half time on Wednesday, we can even have a bra and pantie themed dance routine. Everyone Loves women in Bra and Panties right?

[Furtado91]

He did sub Dunfield though....

The only guy in the WORLD that can't see Dunfield is shit, and he happens to be our coach...lol

Ill give you that one, but thats only one game LOL. as far as Mariner is Concerned Duncecap is still a grade A starting Xl Quality player.

[gracos]

I know what will make us fans happy again............................................. ............... More Dancers during half time on Wednesday, we can even have a bra and pantie themed dance routine. Everyone Loves women in Bra and Panties right?

I honestly hope your being sarcastic, this was the worse thing i saw at the NYRB vs TFC game, I am like what a joke of a team, and any opposition fans would laugh at us, whoever thought that was a good idea needs to be axed from the club

[denime]

WTF??? I didn't realize this, this FO is a joke... All these idiots need to go and the sooner the better..

So how many coaches are we still paying? Mo? Preki? Carver? Winter for sure..

Oh,you missed that one?

1 month before Winter got fired,Anslemi extended Mariner's contract,I know I read somewhere it is 3 years.

[Tee Ef See]

Zavaleta or Gentile?!?!?!?!?

[azorean19]

just angry now............what will it take? how long must we wait? FUCK ! ......Would'nt mind seeing them lose every single game from here on in if they continue to forth that effort, but something tells me it is'nt completely the players fault, we frankly, are not good enough, and whoever thought we were should take the fall, looking at you Mariner.

[tfc2008]

Zavaleta or Gentile?!?!?!?!?


Nobody, Sell this club

[Richard]

If only people wouldnt go to games after 6 years of this shit in our city........

[Oldtimer]

Nobody, Sell this club

The club's been sold (along with the rest of ML$E). I can't wait for the new owners to take over. Hopefully they clean house.

[Code Red]

just angry now............what will it take? how long must we wait? FUCK ! ......Would'nt mind seeing them lose every single game from here on in if they continue to forth that effort, but something tells me it is'nt completely the players fault, we frankly, are not good enough, and whoever thought we were should take the fall, looking at you Mariner.

I'm no fan of Mariner but how can you say it's not the players fault when they are the ones on the field?!?

[DaBandit]

Oh,you missed that one?

1 month before Winter got fired,Anslemi extended Mariner's contract,I know I read somewhere it is 3 years.

Ya I missed that thx.. Complete and utter incompetence.. What the fuck does tommy boy care, he's not paying for it out of his pocket and he's got himself a scapegoat.

[OgtheDim]

If only people wouldnt go to games after 6 years of this shit in our city........

What we need is owners who get that fans are disappointed.

Rogers with the Jays has a history of doing that. Again, it all goes back to how much power the Christmas tree builder will have.

[ForeverTFC]

I'm no fan of Mariner but how can you say it's not the players fault when they are the ones on the field?!?

Half the guys are playing out of position. Mariner said that he would adapt his tactics to the players, but in actuality there are only 7 or 8 guys on this team who can play his style of soccer.

We had 30% possession in the first half. 30%! The ball is always going in one direction under Mariner - up, up, and away.

[v00d00daddy]

TFC held possession very well in the second half against Dallas when they were pressing for the go ahead goal. I see no reason why they can't do it again.

But yeah, Mariner's just a clueless moron who's incapable of preaching anything other than hoof ball.

Sarcasm aside, you were bang on.


I don't think he's a moron. I just think he prefers a shitty style of football. And despite parts of a half here and there, his first choice has been to have his players play 40 yard balls before anything else.

So you can grasp on to the 40 minutes or so over the last 6 games as an indication of his affinity for possession based football but I just don't see it.

When you have central defenders coming back to the keeper to give him an option to distribute the ball and then watch the keeper roll it to his CB just outside the 18 who promptly puts his head down and hits it 50 yards upheld, it's clear that possession is not a priority.

We'll see today.

I'm curious to see what the starting 11 will look like.

I was wrong. LOL

He is a good masseuse and is good at telling his back line to push up and kick the ball upfield.

His starting XI selection was awful and his talk of needing to keep possession was just that....all talk.

[azorean19]

I'm no fan of Mariner but how can you say it's not the players fault when they are the ones on the field?!?

It is not their fault IF they weren't good ENOUGH to begin with. Who signed Emory?...Lambe? etc....We just ain't good enough.

[denime]

I'm no fan of Mariner but how can you say it's not the players fault when they are the ones on the field?!?

agree,

before people were blaming Winter for players individual brain farts,and now Mariner.

Not fair,coaches can be blamed for wrong formation or if they instruct their players to hoof the ball all the time,but at the end if player misses the sitter or passes ball to opponent in front of our net,that is 100% players fault and not coach.

[Tee Ef See]

This was actually a good result.

Philly gets more points on us, and we secure a better draft pick!

[DaBandit]

If only people wouldnt go to games after 6 years of this shit in our city........

A lot of us original STH's don't.. But not enough to get the message across yet. Maybe this year, but I'm sure ML$E will hold out a new shiny object and sell hope to the masses yet again.. If there is one thing mlse knows how to do is to sell hope.. Keep hope alive!

[mowe]

My problems with Mariner:
- Eckersley is not a CB please start Henry or Williams
- Frings and Dunfield are too slow to both start, JDG is a better option
- Avila and Lambe get taken out of the game too easily, try Soolsma or Silva instead
- Lineup rotation was clearly needed instead of exact same lineup for 3 games in 9 days

We play agonizingly ugly football and still lose. HALF of the season is still ahead. Since playoffs are out of reach, now is a good time to give another look to young players like Makubuya, Cordon, and Stinson to see what they have. At least we know they're going to give it their all every game. Anything to change up what we have to suffer through now.

[Furtado91]

I honestly hope your being sarcastic, this was the worse thing i saw at the NYRB vs TFC game, I am like what a joke of a team, and any opposition fans would laugh at us, whoever thought that was a good idea needs to be axed from the club

For clarification Yes I was being sarcastic, Though by now you should be aware thats How ML$E is probably thinking LOL how do we get people to renew SS's? I know by hiring girls to do a dance routine at half time with bras and panties lol. i wouldnt be surprised if they pulled something even remotely close.

[Jeff s]

My problems with Mariner:
- Eckersley is not a CB please start Henry or Williams
- Frings and Dunfield are too slow to both start, JDG is a better option
- Avila and Lambe get taken out of the game too easily, try Soolsma or Silva instead
- Lineup rotation was clearly needed instead of exact same lineup for 3 games in 9 days

We play agonizingly ugly football and still lose. HALF of the season is still ahead. Since playoffs are out of reach, now is a good time to give another look to young players like Makubuya, Cordon, and Stinson to see what they have. At least we know they're going to give it their all every game. Anything to change up what we have to suffer through now.

Agreed for every single thing mentioned here.

[denime]

This TFC article makes me lough. Much Changed Since Last Meeting (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/07/much-changed-last-meeting)

So true,month ago we tried to play possession football and managed to beat Philly 1-0,a month later and small "tweaking" on both sides,Philly is now playing possession football and dominates hoofball TFC by 3-0 score.
Good job Anselmi,I really really hope you will get promotion ASAP.

[TFC07]

Wel, maybe some teams can, but what makes you think we can?

Wasn't TFC close to sign Nesta recently?

[azorean19]

agree,

before people were blaming Winter for players individual brain farts,and now Mariner.

Not fair,coaches can be blamed for wrong formation or if they instruct their players to hoof the ball all the time,but at the end if player misses the sitter or passes ball to opponent in front of our net,that is 100% players fault and not coach.

all to do with player evaluation, we can't scout for shit !.....from Aceval, to Caicedo, To Lambe, to Emory, and on and on, seriously, where do we find these guys? other teams seem to have no problems scouting latin america , etc and finding some great 'cheap' talents...why is it so hard for us?

[TFC07]

agree,

before people were blaming Winter for players individual brain farts,and now Mariner.

Not fair,coaches can be blamed for wrong formation or if they instruct their players to hoof the ball all the time,but at the end if player misses the sitter or passes ball to opponent in front of our net,that is 100% players fault and not coach.

LOL @ MLS draft

This isn't NBA where you can pretty much guarantee to get best young player in the world.

It's hit and miss when comes to MLS draft.

[Code Red]

Half the guys are playing out of position. Mariner said that he would adapt his tactics to the players, but in actuality there are only 7 or 8 guys on this team who can play his style of soccer.

We had 30% possession in the first half. 30%! The ball is always going in one direction under Mariner - up, up, and away.

I agree. Mariner's tactics are puzzling but the players have to adopt as this man is now in charge. If it were up to me, Winter would still be calling the shots in this city but ML$E knows better right?

[Code Red]

It is not their fault IF they weren't good ENOUGH to begin with. Who signed Emory?...Lambe? etc....We just ain't good enough.

We both agree then, the players on this team are NOT good enough.

[Code Red]

agree,

before people were blaming Winter for players individual brain farts,and now Mariner.

Not fair,coaches can be blamed for wrong formation or if they instruct their players to hoof the ball all the time,but at the end if player misses the sitter or passes ball to opponent in front of our net,that is 100% players fault and not coach.

Exactly. 7 coaches in 6 years can't all be wrong, can they?

[denime]

Wasn't TFC close to sign Nesta recently?

Yeah,but Mariner and Cockrane did not want him,probably because he was suggested by BDeKlark,our new international scout who actually trying to do his job,not like other two stooges in last 18 months.

[Beach_Red]

Wasn't TFC close to sign Nesta recently?

Wel, yeah, isn't that the point? TFC can always get close, player agents have been using them for negotiation for years.

Actually there was a time when TFC could even get players to come and play a few games - remember Laurent Robert and Olivier Tebily? - but even then they couldn't keep them.

As an old boss used to say to me, anybody can get a deal 90% done, it's the closing that's hard. All TFC has ever been able to do to get a deal to close is overpay, but they can't do that forever in a salary cap league.

[v00d00daddy]

Wel, yeah, isn't that the point? TFC can always get close, player agents have been using them for negotiation for years.

Actually there was a time when TFC could even get players to come and play a few games - remember Laurent Robert and Olivier Tebily? - but even then they couldn't keep them.

As an old boss used to say to me, anybody can get a deal 90% done, it's the closing that's hard. All TFC has ever been able to do to get a deal to close is overpay, but they can't do that forever in a salary cap league.

While that may be true for TFC as a whole but when it comes to the Nesta situation I don't think we were ever close.

Wasn't Mariner quoted as saying that they were interested but hadn't spoken to Nesta or his agent?

If he said that I would translate it as "Not interested but I'll tell you we are to get you off my back"

How could we ever have been in on Nesta? What was Mariner going to tell him.

"We'd love to have you here Alles...er...alle...Alex and as you can see we'd love to have your leadership to teach the lads how to keep their shape and help each other out on the back line. Oh....also......there will be no midfielders presenting themselves to you when you have the ball because we've asked our defenders to play the ball up to the attacking players directly...all the time. Ok?"

Nesta: "No grazie! I go to Montreal. Ciao."

LOL

[spe18]

We lost 3-0 to the Union...enough said

Keep in mind though, this is the same Union team that beat the Galaxy in LA last week!

[Beach_Red]

While that may be true for TFC as a whole but when it comes to the Nesta situation I don't think we were ever close.

Wasn't Mariner quoted as saying that they were interested but hadn't spoken to Nesta or his agent?

If he said that I would translate it as "Not interested but I'll tell you we are to get you off my back"

How could we ever have been in on Nesta? What was Mariner going to tell him.

"We'd love to have you here Alles...er...alle...Alex and as you can see we'd love to have your leadership to teach the lads how to keep their shape and help each other out on the back line. Oh....also......there will be no midfielders presenting themselves to you when you have the ball because we've asked our defenders to play the ball up to the attacking players directly...all the time. Ok?"

Nesta: "No grazie! I go to Montreal. Ciao."

LOL

TFC was never going to get Nesta unless they overpaid - but it's unlikely style of play had anything to do with it. Who knows, maybe with different players even Mariner would play a different style.

I've worked on a lot of low budget movies and good directors don't waste too many takes on actors who won't get it even if they spend all day - but if they ever get a good actor on set his part suddenly gets a lot bigger.

[azorean19]

Serious question, Does TFC even have someone dedicated to scouting Latin America? New England just picked up Bengston from Honduras, 25 year old forward, leading goal scorer for past 3 seasons for Montagua....Seattle has an Argentinian. uruguayan, and a Colombian on the forward line, Dalllas has Perez who is lethal when healthy, Colorado anchors the midfield with Castrillon(colombia) and Rivero(Argentina), MONTREAL picks up a tremendous little Brasilian mf in Felipe ( Where did they even find that guy??), RSL has Espindola and Saborio up front, seriously, WHAT IS WRONG WITH TFC SCOUTING?

......K.C has a workhorse of a Honduran MF in Espinoza, S.J get's a guy who plays all WORLD in Honduran df Bernardez, Vancouver has so much of a surplus that they can even let go promising players in guys like Long tan and Lee Nguyen......These are all inexpensive signings, BUT TFC never seems to find guys like these

[Thomas]

What a terrible game. The whole team looked like they had taken tranquilizers. Frings looked like a 70 year old man? Love the guy, but there was nothing left in the tank. This might be his last year with TFC. I know many folks like Silva, but so far he has been a disappointment. Eks is a solid player, if he plays his natural position. Hall is out of his element, and should be on the bench. If only we had a solid starter to replace him. I wasn't in favor of cutting Winter until the end of this season. I'm afraid that Mariner is not our longer term solution. What really showed today was how weak our midfield played today. Lastly, where was Soolsma?

[iy12l]

I dont like this 4-4-2 hoofball, we should have let Winter finish the season off... Why the hell do you keep the same line-up when thye played 3 games in 9 days?? Why does Mariner favour "his players" over players who deserve to be in the line-up like Soolsma and JDG. Also, i think Mariner is killing the youth development, i dont see Stinson, Cordon, or Makabuya getting any playing time when Mariner's favored players are getting all the minutes. TFC should of hired Rongen or BDK atleast!

[Yohan]

Yeah,but Mariner and Cockrane did not want him,probably because he was suggested by BDeKlark,our new international scout who actually trying to do his job,not like other two stooges in last 18 months.

evidence?

[ryan]

Serious question, Does TFC even have someone dedicated to scouting Latin America? New England just picked up Bengston from Honduras, 25 year old forward, leading goal scorer for past 3 seasons for Montagua....Seattle has an Argentinian. uruguayan, and a Colombian on the forward line, Dalllas has Perez who is lethal when healthy, Colarado anchors the midfield with Castrillon(colombia) and Rivero(Argentina), MONTREAL picks up a tremendous little Brasilain mf in Felipe ( Where did they even find that guy??), RSL has Espindola and Saborio up front, seriously, WHAT IS WRONG WITH TFC SCOUTING?

Those players came from places/clubs that aren't in FIFA 12.

[Beach_Red]

Serious question, Does TFC even have someone dedicated to scouting Latin America? New England just picked up Bengston from Honduras, 25 year old forward, leading goal scorer for past 3 seasons for Montagua....Seattle has an Argentinian. uruguayan, and a Colombian on the forward line, Dalllas has Perez who is lethal when healthy, Colorado anchors the midfield with Castrillon(colombia) and Rivero(Argentina), MONTREAL picks up a tremendous little Brasilian mf in Felipe ( Where did they even find that guy??), RSL has Espindola and Saborio up front, seriously, WHAT IS WRONG WITH TFC SCOUTING?

......K.C has a workhorse of a Honduran MF in Espinoza, S.J get's a guy who plays all WORLD in Honduran df Bernardez, Vancouver has so much of a surplus that they can even let go promising forwards in guys like Long tan......These are all inexpensive signings, BUT TFC never seems to find guys like these


TFC has never had any scouting. When they sent the coach/GM (later GM) on scouting trips himself (even though he had zero experience and contacts) we didn't call out Anselmi or the so-called front office. They learned early they could prop up a cheap front-man and we would focus all our attention on him and it took us six years to call out upper management. So, here we are.

[denime]

evidence?

Go to Nesta thread and find it,I really have no time to do it ,sorry.

[denime]

Keep in mind though, this is the same Union team that beat the Galaxy in LA last week!

and the same Union that we out-possessed and beat 1-0 a month ago.

[DangerRed]

One man's evolution...


can u feel it !!!!


a win, regardless of how much it has been all Union to start things off.


That was terrible.


This is mother fuckin bull shit, it is too easy for the Union, Hall by playing way too narrow gave up way to much space to Adu, what the fuck !!!


The Reds are being raped today and are doing nothing at all to prevent it, too bad they can not blow an emergency whistle !!


I think the Reds pooped their pants and are enjoying it, smearing it on each other.


Fuck this ...

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/004/949/trolldad.jpg TROLOLOLOLOL

[Code Red]

What a terrible game. The whole team looked like they had taken tranquilizers. Frings looked like a 70 year old man? Love the guy, but there was nothing left in the tank. This will be his last year with TFC. I know many folks like Silva, but so far he has been a disappointment. Eks is a solid player, if he plays his natural position. Hall is out of his element, and should be on the bench. If only we had a solid starter to replace him. I wasn't in favor of cutting Winter until the end of this season. I'm afraid that Mariner is not our longer term solution. What really showed today was how weak our midfield played today. Lastly, where was Soolsma?

Fixed your post.

[denime]

Toronto Hits A Wall In Philly (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/07/toronto-hits-wall-philly)




Some first-half stats showed the Union’s domination: they controlled 70.7 percent of the possession, had 87.7 percent passing accuracy and made 11 attempts on goal.

Meanwhile, Toronto’s first shot on target didn’t come until the 51st minute, on a header from forward Danny Koevermans.
:picard:

[v00d00daddy]

http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/07/08/paul-mariner-july-8-2012

Post game interview with Mariner

Soft questions as usual.

When asked whether the schedule congestion and heat in Philly played a part in todays loss he responds with some drivel about "as a smart coaching staff we knew it was coming"

How can a guy be so cemented on certain players knowing full well they're tired and need a rest?

What is it that causes Mariner to select the exact same starting XI in 3 games in 9 days and then still have the balls to say he knew they'd be tired?

Is he stupid....too proud....hellbent on playing players he wanted?

I've gone beyond anger and I'm left wondering what the hell is wrong with this guy.

[forza_tfc]

So tiring when you see other crappy teams figure out how to improve. Look at the Revs--they fire Nicol, hire a young new coach, pick up some decent players (Nguyen, Sene, now Bengtson), etc. The team improves. Toronto reshuffles, bring on Nicol's sidekick, fail to pick up a CB, etc. We flounder.

I haven't commented much this season because it feels like I'm just blowing wind.

[bigredone]

What would be the purpose of the management turning-off the fans to a point they are not making a penny? This is how it feels things are being laid out. I feel as though someone has something to gain from this shit as there is no way this current situation is natural and just happened. Life is not that cruel!!!

[tfcleeds]

Thank goodness European leagues are starting up again in a month or so. That is all.

[Yohan]

This one was all on Mariner. Pretty much same line up for like last 5 games and it showed. The lads played tired, esp after traveling to Dallas to Philly. Easy to resort to brainless long ball when you are physically and mentally tired. TFC played a little better when long ball was used better while mixing up the attack with possession based short passing on the ground. And that's I'm pretty sure how PM wants TFC to play, not just mindlessly launch long balls.

Playing flat 4-4-2 with players he had doesn't work. Avila is not left midfielder. He needs to be further up the field. Reggie Lambe had an ok game compared to rest of the team, but he's still not a better option than Soolsma IMO. Frings is just tired and needs a break.

I think 4-3-1-2 a la Italy is still best formation for TFC, because it actually allows Avila and Silva to play at their best position at AM. Otherwise these two are lost, along with their creativity.
Still can't believe TFC had two balls cleared off the line by Philly and Koevermans got robbed by Zac MacMath, despite how poorly TFC played.

[Chris Wren]

We get it, you don't like people commenting against hoofball. He's a member, you're a visitor on his board, you have no place to tell him what he can and can't say.

You've got it all wrong. I don't like the way we are playing, but I like TFC. I don't come on here and whine endlessly about the same stuff. I don't think it's funny, or do I think it's fun to pile on and take shots at the team I pay to watch play.

Some people just latch on to words like "hoofball" and repeat it like it's the featured cliche of the month. Our team is shit, I know. We all know it. This is a TFC supporters site, it becomes a bit much to read the never ending stream of insults. There's a fine line between being a caring supporter and being hateful.

[Chris Wren]

It has nothing to do with member or user and so on.

He is frustrated as much as we are,at the end our team is being raped by 2nd last place team.

Do you really need to compare losing a soccer game to rape?

Anyway, yeah I'm frustrated. I also get frustrated with the supporters who endlessly hate on the team. Like I said, yes we are shit. I know it. I also think if some can't handle how this team operates they need to get it over with and move on.

[Pookie]

Tired legs? Philly played on Wednesday too, in LA

Pretty sure chasing the ball for 70+% of the time won't help that tired leg issue

Outshot, out possessed, inaccurate passing. Same story with the exception that Danny K couldn't score this time.

Embarassing really

[bigredone]

To Chris Wren (sorry I fucked up the quote thing)

Change is not a bad thing in this case. Wanting to change can be a thing of not only supporters, but patriots. To say someone who wants change should "move on" is like a trailer park inhabitant saying "Git atta heer".

I was born and raised in TO. Love this city, but do not like what it has become. I always preach for a return to the TO of the early 90's. I will also preach for a return to TFC glory days.

[Phil]

Cant wait for the Liverpool friendly.

[/sarcasim]

[narduch]

Tired legs?

They still have games coming up on Wednesday-Saturday-Wednesday leading up to the meaningless friendly v. Liverpool.

If they are tired now, this could get embarrassing. (As if losing 3-0 to the 2nd worst team in the league isn't already).

[Code Red]

Cant wait for the Liverpool friendly.

[/sarcasim]

I knew there was something to look forward to this season. :smilielol5:

[Pookie]

^ could get? From Plata spin to the belief that a short term improvement will get me to pay more than double that of other MLS teams, I'd say it is already embarrassing

[ManUtd4ever]

Sarcasm aside, you were bang on.



I was wrong. LOL

He is a good masseuse and is good at telling his back line to push up and kick the ball upfield.

His starting XI selection was awful and his talk of needing to keep possession was just that....all talk.

TFC did try to play the possession game tonight more than long ball, but the players were exhausted which resulted in mental lapses, fatigue, and an inability to control play for extended periods of time. I mentioned prior to the match in this thread that I thought some squad rotation was in order to avoid those very problems, but Mariner decided to utilize the exact same starting eleven. That mistake falls on him as a coach.

Enjoy patting yourself on the back though.

[denime]

Do you really need to compare losing a soccer game to rape?

Anyway, yeah I'm frustrated. I also get frustrated with the supporters who endlessly hate on the team. Like I said, yes we are shit. I know it. I also think if some can't handle how this team operates they need to get it over with and move on.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings,ask yourself would I be here if I hate this team.

I do hate the way Anslemi operates this team,and if you want to get fucked by him and the rest on donkeys in TFC FO,that's your prerogative,just make sure to apply Nivea Vaseline that TFC gave us for free few months back at BMO,but my but hurts and I run out of Nivea so I'll let them know as STH from day one how I feel about their mismanagement.

At the end of the day,you don't like the idea that supporters don't like loongball Mariner short fix and prefer Winter's possession style even though we were less successful but had better future,sorry that's something you will have to deal with on your own,I can't help you.

Mariner after 7 games 1-2-4,Goal difference -2 ,
Winter's last 7 games 3-2-2 goal difference 0

[Phil]

I knew there was something to look forward to this season. :smilielol5:

So ill timed, given the CCL....I pointed this out but deaf ears.

Still love the badge and encourage all to support the team. Anselmi and the bullcrap....ya not so much.

[Pookie]

TFC did try to play the possession game tonight more than long ball, but the players were exhausted which resulted in mental lapses, fatigue, and an inability to control play for extended periods of time. I mentioned prior to the match in this thread that I thought some squad rotation was in order to avoid those very problems, but Mariner decided to utilize the exact same starting eleven. That mistake falls on him as a coach.

Enjoy patting yourself on the back though.

So were they exhausted before they started the game? Possession was horrible right from the start

Were they exhausted in each of the previous 6 games under Mariner? This recent stretch of games ignores the very long break players had just a few weeks before. It also ignores the fact that the Union flew back from LA after a game on Wednesday too.

At some point, it stops being excuses and falls back on roster construction and resources necessary to support an organization. Mariner shares some blame for that but all the results we see are a function of Anselmi's leadership

[iy12l]

I hope Mariner gets fired, i seen enough of this 442 hoofball already. This team best players cant even fit into a 442 formation, its better at a 4-5-1 or 4-3-2-1. TFC needs to get this man

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Heath

This guy knows how to run a team as they always in 1st place, and the best part is he uses the 4-5-1 formation. This guy is better than Martin Rennie and look at where the shitecaps are!

[ag futbol]

I’ll be interested to see how the next couple of games pan out. We went through the first few games and got a decent bounce out of Mariner’s adjustments but hit the wall today. I think it’s clear teams have some tape on TFC in the 4-4-2 now and they know where the holes are.

How many runs / passes did we see in behind Logan Emory today? How about midfielders drying to drag Dunfield and Frings out of position to open up space in front of our backline? That is all about watching the other team and identifying weaknesses to exploit. Didn’t happen by accident.

That being said, this is (relative to the rest of the league) one of the worst collections of players I have ever seen. There is hardly a game that goes by where we are not overmatched at five or six positions on the field. This team has only a handful of capable starters on its entire roster, regardless of who is selected in our first 11. Everyone else is playing at a MLS backup level or lower. Who identified all these terrible players? (rhetorical)

[wesvahr]

I find it comical how Mariner has run from our now old 4-3-3 formation. The two defeats that he has experienced since he took over as head coach have come against KC and Philly, both teams play a 4-3-3 formation. It can work in the MLS and it is being proven by other teams that it does work quite well.

People have said that TFC were better than an 0-9 team. They may have been right I am not going to argue about that right now. But I can tell you that this team is worse then their "unbeaten" streak of 5 games. Koev's is a solid striker but he can't score every night. All strikers get hot and cold, and when it gets cold TFC gets zero results.

[tiberius]

Yeah,but Mariner and Cockrane did not want him,probably because he was suggested by BDeKlark,our new international scout who actually trying to do his job,not like other two stooges in last 18 months.


evidence?

No Nesta in Toronto seems like pretty good evidence that they either were not interested or Cockrane was incapable of landing him....

[Blizzard]

Koev's is a solid striker but he can't score every night. All strikers get hot and cold, and when it gets cold TFC gets zero results.

That's really what it comes down to in the end ..... along with how our back four might be muddling through on any given night. I think Koevs is better than solid but no striker is guaranteed to score in every single game and if Koevs doesn't score, we're in the sheep dip.

[jloome]

No Nesta in Toronto seems like pretty good evidence that they either were not interested or Cockrane was incapable of landing him....

Cochrane has already said they didn't pursue it.

[tiberius]

What would be the purpose of the management turning-off the fans to a point they are not making a penny? This is how it feels things are being laid out. I feel as though someone has something to gain from this shit as there is no way this current situation is natural and just happened. Life is not that cruel!!!

This is what a bureaucracy looks and feels like - get ready tho, because it is about to get a lot worse - Bell + Rogers are the ultimate bureaucracies - they are loosing customers left and right and don't appear to give a rat's ass... I have a feeling that the darkness is not going to end soon....:hide: It is rumoured that our tickets reps will be farmed out to a call centre in India - won't that be fun! :banghead:

[denime]

Cochrane has already said they didn't pursue it.

and you believe Cockrane,he said that Plata is still with TFC,remember.

as far Nesta goes,here pick one


https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2271277073/ydlslhst3yqw8o901a3o_normal.jpegAC Milan DiavoloNews‏@MilanDiavolo (http://redpatchboys.ca/MilanDiavolo)

According to different sources including GdS, Toronto FC will be making a contract offer to Alessandro Nesta.


John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro
(https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro)So mariner says club is targeting Nesta. #TFC (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC) didn't say how serious or involved talks are.


Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN
(https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN)Mariner not talking to Nesta but says he's a target. I stand somewhat corrected. #TFC (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC)


John Molinaro‏@JohnMolinaro
So mariner says club is targeting Nesta. #TFC (http://redpatchboys.ca/#!/search/%23TFC) didn't say how serious or involved talks are.

Toronto FC confirm interest in former Milan defender Nesta (http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/06/29/toronto-fc-confirm-interest-former-milan-defender-nesta)




http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?3414

Additional sources close to Toronto FC’s front office confirmed to CSN that the club is chasing Alessandro Nesta. However, there was a suggestion that an internal conflict at the club was holding things up.

It’s said that Bob de Klerk is driving interest in Nesta, but that one of either Earl Cochrane or Paul Mariner is resisting the move. The nature of their resistance was not indicated.

The information differs slightly from what CSN was told last week. At that time multiple player agents strongly indicated that a deal was on the table. The agents said that they would be “very surprised” if the deal did not go through.

[TFC Cityboy]

Can we have the end of season townhall meeting now please. The season is over and these fuckwits need to hear from the fanbase before they really screw the pooch and put the prices up for a shit product next season.

[Beach_Red]

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings,ask yourself would I be here if I hate this team.

I do hate the way Anslemi operates this team,and if you want to get fucked by him and the rest on donkeys in TFC FO,that's your prerogative,just make sure to apply Nivea Vaseline that TFC gave us for free few months back at BMO,but my but hurts and I run out of Nivea so I'll let them know as STH from day one how I feel about their mismanagement.

At the end of the day,you don't like the idea that supporters don't like loongball Mariner short fix and prefer Winter's possession style even though we were less successful but had better future,sorry that's something you will have to deal with on your own,I can't help you.

Mariner after 7 games 1-2-4,Goal difference -2 ,
Winter's last 7 games 3-2-2 goal difference 0

The only problem with this, is that without a proper team president and front office there's no real reason to believe they'd be any more successful building a possession style team. They still wouldn't be able to put together a good enough roster and there's no reason to believe they would even be able to keep enough players from their own academy to make a big enough difference.

[jazzy]

No Nesta in Toronto seems like pretty good evidence that they either were not interested or Cockrane was incapable of landing him....
in respect why would nesta ever want to play in TO....do we all think every player can't see the hopelessness of this team...if a choice is offered elsewhere, esp in a more accommodating town, where a european style of life can be offered, as well as Italian connections,..ya here but left in the dark or not willing to support tfc, it seems...(and why not they're all pretty well white/anglo establishment types, as TO always has been,,,(calling the shots at least)...so our future unless we really overpay is bleak ....sound familiar?.. again? Philanthropy has and never will be in TO's make-up.......too many money gougers......and it shows unfortunately in our city....without the wonderful citizens, from all countries mostly striving to make a living hence the amazing sports supporters so often frustrated by owners who don't give a fook....this city is very unfortunate.......noone in any leadership capacity really gives a F%#k

[tfcocd]

Thank god I woke up yesterday morning and decided to bail on making the trek down to Philly for the game, even had the mega bus ticket in hand , just did not feel right about it, most because of what people posted about the area of town the stadium is in, a war zone of sorts..

You are the core of away support. Its too bad that there isn't a bus load of supporters to every game in the Eastern Conference. I truly hope that we achieve this level of support in the future that at least there is one or two charter buses for every away game.

[Oldtimer]

Philly did things right: keep the overall system, but change the particular coach to one that can better carry out the system.
TFC: panic, dump the system, move to the polar opposite looking for a quick fix.

The "next" step is to fire Mariner, maybe hire another consultant, or Anselmi just hire some other inexperienced wannabe. Promise great things, spin to the media, believe none of it. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

[rowjimi]

Agree with many posts about Mariner not changing the line-up for this game. This is a brutal part of the schedule and keeping the same people on the field was asking for this type of performance. It will also affect Wednesday's game. Quick turnaround and another hot day.

[CoachGT]

A little late to the thread, but I was a little down after watching the game (despite watching with a great group of guys - some of the KW contingent!).

Some observations from the last few games (up to and including last night):

- Frings seems to have virtually disappeared under Mariner. If it wasn't for set pieces, he'd be invisible.
- On the other hand, Dunfield has generally played well. Yesterday was not a good game for him, but I wondered how much of that was the hangover from taking a couple of good hits to the face on Wednesday.
- Our offense is one dimensional. If Danny K isn't potting goals as he has been, this team is really in trouble offensively.
- Avila, Lambe and Silva are depth pieces only. Nobody has stepped up and shown they deserve to play every game. Soolsma has played well this season but isn't getting the chance to see if he can continue.
- Hall and Henry and both good young players that need experience. They are not ready to start in this league.
- Emory is another depth player, not ready for a starting role in this league.
- Ecks is in trouble when he plays out of position. He is a fullback and plays like it, not a center back.
- Johnson appears to have lost confidence and his anger is getting the better of him.
- Kocic (or Frei) can't do it all, and it looked like Kocic was hurt and should have been removed yesterday.

While the players may be getting more direction about what is expected of them when playing specific positions, this is still not a very good football team. Philly had to play under the same conditions, after having played midweek in LA, and pretty much everybody is playing a high frequency of games right now.

The teams closest to us in the table are the teams we have to try and take points from. We played two of them last week and came away with one point. Not good enough. Statistically, Dallas was in a position to be taken in the midst of a heavy winless streak, rested or not - we went into Dallas under harsher conditions last year (Champions League) and came away with a win. Philly has been better lately, but 2 of their three wins since their coaching change came during the last week (including the game yesterday). While it is tough to win on the road in this league, and this team does not have a history of winning on the road, this team has to compete in these games. It didn't.

I will continue to support the team, but they are making themselves look irrelevant. This team is more than a player or two away. Other teams have fallen below us over the past few years and are now well ahead of us (San Jose, New York, RSL, Kansas City).

If there was relegation, we'd be in house league now.

[Canary10]

They were obviously tired, but as people have said, that's when you have to rotate players. I think we're seeing part of the fall out of hiring the guy who has clearly been angling for the head coaching job since he came to TFC. He's not pickingthe best 11 players - he's picking "his" 11. I really find the Soolsma situation the most ironic. He really is the only true outside mid in we have for a 4-4-2 (especially the flat one played yesterday), yet he isn't given a sniff. Instead Mariner puts him in at central striker, which is not at all his position. Problem of hiring someone internally like this is that people who are associated with the old regime tend to get marginalized. That's what's going on with Soolsma and some others.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Hoofball. That's all I could think watching them play after the first 2 goals were scored. The final third of the pitch was an invisible barrier only Danny K could pierce. The success they've had has been by his boot, yes, but he's had help from RJ and others with the setup.

That reminds me, RJ is turning into a real bitch and I say that as someone who thinks he was on the cusp of being one of our best players this year. His attitude is killing me and Eckers is back to his short fuse ways again now that he knows he's starting every game- somewhere...

[CoachGT]

As the game progressed, Philly's attack always seemed to be equal numbers or they'd have an advantage in numbers in our end. Our attacks always seemed to be Danny and whoever was closest going in on 4 or 5 Union defenders.

[TOBOR !]

I feel we're only a game or two away from another DK "worst team in the world" quote.

[ryan]

I feel we're only a game or two away from another DK "worst team in the world" quote.

I will be a sad man if DK rethinks his love for Toronto and leaves us. I want him to retire a red.

[Derko]

Poor effort, mainly from Mariner, lack of player rotation, has totally taken any wind out of the sails, that the players may have had, Wednesday will be a rough game, in particular the older players will start to get injured and then we will slide even further, if we can.

Enough said, hopefully their will be a bit of Pride and Determination on Wednesday.

[T-boy]

I don't think "lack of players rotation" is a cause of this - and if it is, I don't blame Mariner for not rotating. A coach always wants to maintain a winning team/undefeated team - so that's fine if Mariner wasn't to keep doing that. We all coomplained that Winter was rotating TOO much when he didn't need to, especiall in defence. Sp, now Mariner IS keeping the same team, we can't conversely now complain about that also! It's like no TFC coach can win - we always criticise either way!

Having said that - TFC have had 3 double gameweeks in a row now, and you could SEE the fatigue catching up with the players - especially in a horrible heatwave! So, while Winter could have earlier played the same team and gelled them together, now Mariner has to try and do it, but its not possible with the weather and back-to-back double gameweeks! Frings, Avila, Emory, Ecks all looked a bit knackered out there on Sunday. Emory especially looked gassed and was beaten over and over. Hall also, having played well recently, was roasted several times and his positioning was pretty awful.

Philly are obviously on the up, and their new coach has also given them a lift recently. They were clearly playing with MUCH more confidence than when we beat them at BMO. Adu played like a man with one leg at BMO - but yesterday he looked like a class player. That shows what confidence can do to a player!

I'll give Mariner a break this ONCE, knowing that the players have played so many games while, I think, all the other teams in the league have had at least one off midweek recently (why do the league always seem to fuck TFC up with such a horrible schedule - always light in the spring and then double game weeks over and over again in the heat?!).

If I was Mariner, or any other manager - I would have also tried to keep the same starting 11 for this game, having played so well the previous games, and in an effort to gel the team together. But, I think given the seering heat and humidity, its time to change up a bit for the Vancouver game.

[trane]

Philly did things right: keep the overall system, but change the particular coach to one that can better carry out the system.
TFC: panic, dump the system, move to the polar opposite looking for a quick fix.

The "next" step is to fire Mariner, maybe hire another consultant, or Anselmi just hire some other inexperienced wannabe. Promise great things, spin to the media, believe none of it. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

I was calling for Winter's firing, not because I did not like the idea of what he was trying to do, but simply because it had become clear that it was unlikely that he would get this team to be competitive. However, when I saw that they fired winter, and hired mariner, who had obviously been hired with winter, whom I would assign much of the blame, was hired to replace him. I am also surprised ( that is not rely the right word in that MLSE no longer really sunrises me) that Mariner decided to scrap the system completely.

A normal team would have done what Philly had done. Having said that now that Mariner has been hired I would say that he should be given a chance, just as Winter was, and winter was given almost 70 games, it is too early to call for his firing. I always think that 10 games is enough to be able to assess. To be honest it has not been all too crap under Mariner, but clearly it is hardly impressive.

I like Danny K and Johnson upfront. If you are going to use a 4-4-2, I would use a 4-3-1-2, with basically 3 holding mids ( as we do not have the Canadian Shield-we need to protect them) with Frings in the middle, and Dunfield and JDG on each side, as half wings (Italian terms), we have two options at AM/SS in Avila and Silva.

[denime]

I don't think "lack of players rotation" is a cause of this - and if it is, I don't blame Mariner for not rotating.:facepalm: A coach always wants to maintain a winning:smilielol5:/undefeated team - so that's fine if Mariner wasn't to keep doing that. We all coomplained that Winter was rotating TOO much when he didn't need to, especiall in defence. Sp, now Mariner IS keeping the same team, we can't conversely now complain about that also! It's like no TFC coach can win - we always criticise either way!

Having said that - TFC have had 3 double gameweeks in a row now, and you could SEE the fatigue catching up with the players - especially in a horrible heatwave! So, while Winter could have earlier played the same team and gelled them together, now Mariner has to try and do it, but its not possible with the weather and back-to-back double gameweeks! Frings, Avila, Emory, Ecks all looked a bit knackered out there on Sunday. Emory especially looked gassed and was beaten over and over. Hall also, having played well recently, was roasted several times and his positioning was pretty awful.

Philly are obviously on the up, and their new coach has also given them a lift recently. They were clearly playing with MUCH more confidence than when we beat them at BMO. Adu played like a man with one leg at BMO - but yesterday he looked like a class player. That shows what confidence can do to a player!

I'll give Mariner a break this ONCE, knowing that the players have played so many games while, I think, all the other teams in the league have had at least one off midweek recently (why do the league always seem to fuck TFC up with such a horrible schedule - always light in the spring and then double game weeks over and over again in the heat?!).

If I was Mariner, or any other manager - I would have also tried to keep the same starting 11 for this game, having played so well the previous games, and in an effort to gel the team together. But, I think given the seering heat and humidity, its time to change up a bit for the Vancouver game.

I don't know were to start,I think YOU ARE Mariner,or his best buddy and defiantly on something good:stogey:,can I have it too,please?

Philly played Wednesday in LA,we beat Philly with Winter 1-0,heatwave was for both teams,go checks schedule in March and April and you will see we had a lots of midweek games,stop apologizing for mariner,he is over his head and wont last past this season.

[T-boy]

I don't know were to start,I think YOU ARE Mariner,or his best buddy and defiantly on something good:stogey:,can I have it too,please?

Philly played Wednesday in LA,we beat Philly with Winter 1-0,heatwave was for both teams,go checks schedule in March and April and you will see we had a lots of midweek games,stop apologizing for mariner,he is over his head and wont last past this season.

Ok, Mariner out, he sucks. He should have changed the starting 11 even though they were unbeaten in 5 games - what the hell was he thinking?! You should always try and change your starting 11 when you are unbeaten, that's always the best thing to do!

P.S at least I always stick to my argument - I said that Winter rotated way too much, I'm NOT going to complain that Mariner is trying to keep a consistent starting 11 (that's not a dig at you personally, but others who seem to change their argument week after week!).

[Canary10]

I don't think "lack of players rotation" is a cause of this - and if it is, I don't blame Mariner for not rotating. A coach always wants to maintain a winning team/undefeated team - so that's fine if Mariner wasn't to keep doing that. We all coomplained that Winter was rotating TOO much when he didn't need to, especiall in defence. Sp, now Mariner IS keeping the same team, we can't conversely now complain about that also! It's like no TFC coach can win - we always criticise either way!

Having said that - TFC have had 3 double gameweeks in a row now, and you could SEE the fatigue catching up with the players - especially in a horrible heatwave! So, while Winter could have earlier played the same team and gelled them together, now Mariner has to try and do it, but its not possible with the weather and back-to-back double gameweeks! Frings, Avila, Emory, Ecks all looked a bit knackered out there on Sunday. Emory especially looked gassed and was beaten over and over. Hall also, having played well recently, was roasted several times and his positioning was pretty awful.

Philly are obviously on the up, and their new coach has also given them a lift recently. They were clearly playing with MUCH more confidence than when we beat them at BMO. Adu played like a man with one leg at BMO - but yesterday he looked like a class player. That shows what confidence can do to a player!

I'll give Mariner a break this ONCE, knowing that the players have played so many games while, I think, all the other teams in the league have had at least one off midweek recently (why do the league always seem to fuck TFC up with such a horrible schedule - always light in the spring and then double game weeks over and over again in the heat?!).

If I was Mariner, or any other manager - I would have also tried to keep the same starting 11 for this game, having played so well the previous games, and in an effort to gel the team together. But, I think given the seering heat and humidity, its time to change up a bit for the Vancouver game.

A bit of context here. Through the first two months of the season, TFC was playing a game every 5 days. In March, it was a game every 4 days. Every other MLS team had a game every 6-7 days over those two months. And in those early days, every other one of those games for us was essentially a playoff game, followed by a league game. We had by far the most difficult start to the season of any team. At the moment (since the international break), we're in a run of a game just over every 3 days ending July 18.

I agree with you that Winter was too inconsistent in his choice of starting 11, but he had to rotate players out of necessity almost right from the beginning of the season given the ridiculous schedule. I can't be too hard on Mariner on this either, as obviously he's trying to get some consistency, but he's swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.

My point really, is that TFC has had a ridiculously hard schedule, right from the beginning. I see a lot of people saying this is the worst group of players every, etc, but I don't think that's true. We have a schedule that is far more difficult than virtually every other team in MLS.

[denime]

Ok, Mariner out, he sucks. He should have changed the starting 11 even though they were unbeaten in 5 games - what the hell was he thinking?! You should always try and change your starting 11 when you are unbeaten, that's always the best thing to do!

P.S at least I always stick to my argument - I said that Winter rotated way too much, I'm NOT going to complain that Mariner is trying to keep a consistent starting 11 (that's not a dig at you personally, but others who seem to change their argument week after week!).

You mean WINLESS IN 6,right?

Mariner 1-2-4 -2 Goal diff.
Winter 3-2-2 0 goal diff.

Beat Philly with 433 and Shitcaps
Got killed and embarrassed vs Philly with 442hoofball,expect the same vs Shitcaps this Wednesday.

[T-boy]

A bit of context here. Through the first two months of the season, TFC was playing a game every 5 days. In March, it was a game every 4 days. Every other MLS team had a game every 6-7 days over those two months. And in those early days, every other one of those games for us was essentially a playoff game, followed by a league game. We had by far the most difficult start to the season of any team. At the moment (since the international break), we're in a run of a game just over every 3 days ending July 18.

I agree with you that Winter was too inconsistent in his choice of starting 11, but he had to rotate players out of necessity almost right from the beginning of the season given the ridiculous schedule. I can't be too hard on Mariner on this either, as obviously he's trying to get some consistency, but he's swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.

My point really, is that TFC has had a ridiculously hard schedule, right from the beginning. I see a lot of people saying this is the worst group of players every, etc, but I don't think that's true. We have a schedule that is far more difficult than virtually every other team in MLS.


Good post canary. I think most MLS fans can complain at some point about a horrible schedule (the MLS season is far too short for all the games plus us cup and CCL games for some teams) at some point in their season.

I think we all need to wait a little to do a full assessment of Mariner. Winter had ALL off season to get his system in place, and failed, even though he had many training sessions with the whole squad of players, plus pre season games and that little tour of whatever they went. I would LOVE to see what Mariner could do given some actual time with the squad, and some time to get a proper system drilled into them. But unfortunately, given the current double-gameweek schedule, Mariner just isn't going to have time.

Yes, Mariner has "dumbed down the game" - but given a handful of training session, that's all you can really do in that time. The old system clearly wasn't working. You have two options - 1. you tweek it a little and see if the system that wasn't working starts working (unlikely, I think). Or you simplify the game for the players in the short term, and try and get a different result (which has kind of happened).

TFC have to wait another week and a half before they get a break and a good ten days between games. I'm sure Mariner will use that time to assess where he is, and assess the squad fully, and have an actual run of training sessions at home base (including players that were missing the last gap in games due to internationals).

For me, Winter had too much time, given that he had a full off season, and yet made the team worse. Right now, Mariner hasn't had enough time. We (as fans) also need to find a happy medium in the time we give a coach. A season and a half is too long, IMO. 6 games is too short. If a new coach can't change a team's fortunes around in 6 months, I think that's a good assessment in time. I would personally give a manager who was installed half way through a season a little more time (given that a preseason is sometimes what a new coach needs to get the squad fully working to his orders).

I'm no "Mariner lover" - I just assess it as and when I see it. Other people on here are correct - a monkey could have got better results after Winter left - sometimes ALL you need is a change in coach just to get some new confidence and better results in the players. I'll happily assess Mariner properly in September after he's been given a break between games, and then a run with the team knowing how he actually wants them to play. If he's not getting better, more consistent, results by then, I will critixise him as much as Winter. But right now, I think its time to get behind the team and manager, and not make snap decisions about him.

[T-boy]

You mean WINLESS IN 6,right?

Mariner 1-2-4 -2 Goal diff.
Winter 3-2-2 0 goal diff.

Beat Philly with 433 and Shitcaps
Got killed and embarrassed vs Philly with 442hoofball,expect the same vs Shitcaps this Wednesday.

The formation and "style" of football had absolutely nothing to do with this loss, IMO. We played a horribly out of form Philly with Adu palying like a one legged ardvaark at BMO. We played a newly confident philly with Adu looking like he could play like Pele away. End of story, really! If you want to go back to a formation and style that broke an all time record low start, then fine. I personally don't want to do that.

[Greatest Ripoff]

If you want to go back to a formation and style that broke an all time record low start, then fine. I personally don't want to do that.

It wasn't the formation or style that was the blame, it was coach. Take a look around the MLS and see how many teams are playing that formation and style with success right now.

[Canary10]

"The formation and "style" of football had absolutely nothing to do with this loss, IMO. We played a horribly out of form Philly with Adu palying like a one legged ardvaark at BMO. We played a newly confident philly with Adu looking like he could play like Pele away. End of story, really! If you want to go back to a formation and style that broke an all time record low start, then fine. I personally don't want to do that."

^ I don't think that's true. TFC played with two banks of four. Four at the back and a flat four in the mid (where we had been playing more of a diamond mid). Avila is really out of place in this formation (I'd argue he is in his position in the diamond as well, but not as glaring). Lambe as well, but to a lesser extent. I'll repeat what I've been saying since Mariner first brought in the 4-4-2: Soolmsa is the only true outside mid we have for this formation. And he is consistently passed over, apparently because he's viewed as "Winter's guy." The flat four mid was a disaster yesterday, and Mariner's insistence on playing guys like Avila out of position, and not playing more suitable guys like Soolsma, was a big part of the loss.

[T-boy]

"The formation and "style" of football had absolutely nothing to do with this loss, IMO. We played a horribly out of form Philly with Adu palying like a one legged ardvaark at BMO. We played a newly confident philly with Adu looking like he could play like Pele away. End of story, really! If you want to go back to a formation and style that broke an all time record low start, then fine. I personally don't want to do that."

^ I don't think that's true. TFC played with two banks of four. Four at the back and a flat four in the mid (where we had been playing more of a diamond mid). Avila is really out of place in this formation (I'd argue he is in his position in the diamond as well, but not as glaring). Lambe as well, but to a lesser extent. I'll repeat what I've been saying since Mariner first brought in the 4-4-2: Soolamsa is the only true outside mid we have for this formation. And he is consistently passed over, apparently because he's viewed as "Winter's guy." The flat four mid was a disaster yesterday, and Mariner's insistence on playing guys like Avila out of position, and not playing more suitable guys like Soolsma, was a big part of the loss.

I don't think Soolsma is necessarily being passed over as he is "Winter's guy" (that's just some people making rumours on here, it seems!). Soolsma was out injured when Mariner took over, and also he got involved in that 'fracas' in Dallas. Soolsma has been coming on as sub, so Mariner clearly will play him. I would put money on Soolsma playing against Vancouver with either RJ or Avila dropping out. Soolsma, agreed, is the best outside mdfield we have in the club right now. With the players clearly all playing "one too many games" in a row, Soolsma, possibly Stinson, or Maund, could come into the midfield for the next game.

[DaBandit]

I don't think Soolsma is necessarily being passed over as he is "Winter's guy" (that's just some people making rumours on here, it seems!). Soolsma was out injured when Mariner took over, and also he got involved in that 'fracas' in Dallas. Soolsma has been coming on as sub, so Mariner clearly will play him. I would put money on Soolsma playing against Vancouver with either RJ or Avila dropping out. Soolsma, agreed, is the best outside mdfield we have in the club right now. With the players clearly all playing "one too many games" in a row, Soolsma, possibly Stinson, or Maund, could come into the midfield for the next game.

this is not a fair bet, cuz your either mariner, a close friend of his or perhaps T-Boy stands for Tommy-Boy, LOL... Sorry but its the only way i can explain how you constantly defend Mariner in EVERYTHING and how you though Anselmi should be praised for bring him in..

[T-boy]

this is not a fair bet, cuz your either mariner, a close friend of his or perhaps T-Boy stands for Tommy-Boy, LOL... Sorry but its the only way i can explain how you constantly defend Mariner in EVERYTHING and how you though Anselmi should be praised for bring him in..

I'm sorry, but you, or anybody else, is not going to get me jumping on the bandwagon of hate, like everybody else.

[Pookie]

A bit of context here. Through the first two months of the season, TFC was playing a game every 5 days. In March, it was a game every 4 days. Every other MLS team had a game every 6-7 days over those two months. And in those early days, every other one of those games for us was essentially a playoff game, followed by a league game. We had by far the most difficult start to the season of any team. At the moment (since the international break), we're in a run of a game just over every 3 days ending July 18.

I agree with you that Winter was too inconsistent in his choice of starting 11, but he had to rotate players out of necessity almost right from the beginning of the season given the ridiculous schedule. I can't be too hard on Mariner on this either, as obviously he's trying to get some consistency, but he's swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.

My point really, is that TFC has had a ridiculously hard schedule, right from the beginning. I see a lot of people saying this is the worst group of players every, etc, but I don't think that's true. We have a schedule that is far more difficult than virtually every other team in MLS.

Hard schedule eh?

The one thing that bothers me is that Philly also had a mid-week game, in California. 3 times zones and 6+ hrs of travel away. Didn't seem to affect them.

Perhaps we have had more mid-week games? Perhaps. We also had a 2 week break prior to those games.

But the real counter-point to these excuses is the fact that Winter managed the team to an 8-3-5 record with 8 mid-week games and travel to Mexico and Latin America last year. In fact, one week saw them fly to Portland, Mexico and then back to the Eastern US in the span of 7 days. Winter managed his roster. Many claimed he focused on CCL. Either or, 8-3-5 was his result with circumstances more difficult than a 2 1/2 hour flight from Dallas.

With virtually the same roster too.

[OfficeGuy]

Does Mariner have the benefit of the doubt when it comes to players and the starting XI.....he should know them by now...even with the handfull of training sessions he has had...he has been with the club for a long time now and shuold have had the insight on what to do....he was involved during Winter's reign and now steers the ship....alas, i grow tired from the Rhyme of the Ancient marinier and the " I know what I am doing and am confident" pontification....there ar eplayers he can move in and players he can rotate.. ...the Defence needs to sit out a game and rest, regain their composure and fight to get back on the starting XI....a half asked effort and poor man marking have become their trademark....players may soon be opting to join Plata and leave the sinking ship....

[Canary10]

Hard schedule eh?

The one thing that bothers me is that Philly also had a mid-week game, in California. 3 times zones and 6+ hrs of travel away. Didn't seem to affect them.

Perhaps we have had more mid-week games? Perhaps. We also had a 2 week break prior to those games.

But the real counter-point to these excuses is the fact that Winter managed the team to an 8-3-5 record with 8 mid-week games and travel to Mexico and Latin America last year. In fact, one week saw them fly to Portland, Mexico and then back to the Eastern US in the span of 7 days. Winter managed his roster. Many claimed he focused on CCL. Either or, 8-3-5 was his result with circumstances more difficult than a 2 1/2 hour flight from Dallas.

With virtually the same roster too.

Did you read my post? I said the schedule Winter had was a game every 4 days at the start, and every other one of those essentially a playoff game.

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

we are saving it all for the CCL....stay tune! LOL

[ryan]

( as we do not have the Canadian Shield-we need to protect them)


perhaps T-Boy stands for Tommy-Boy, LOL


http://www.virtualsportsnetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/26744259Xmil1kV[1].gif

Those two comments bloody killed me.

[Pookie]

Did you read my post? I said the schedule Winter had was a game every 4 days at the start, and every other one of those essentially a playoff game.

More of a general comment then something specific in your post as there are quite a few references (from the same person) in regards to a tough schedule.

Just wondering more out loud why Mariner gets a pass yet Winter doesn't? Maybe it was because in 2011, Winter performed in spite of the schedule and didn't need the excuse book?

[Canary10]

More of a general comment then something specific in your post as there are quite a few references (from the same person) in regards to a tough schedule.

Just wondering more out loud why Mariner gets a pass yet Winter doesn't? Maybe it was because in 2011, Winter performed in spite of the schedule and didn't need the excuse book?

Absolutely. Winter really had a tougher start considering he had playoff games scattered amongst the league games to go along with the fixture congestion.

[DaBandit]

I'm sorry, but you, or anybody else, is not going to get me jumping on the bandwagon of hate, like everybody else.

Not asking you to jump on the bandwagon of hate.. I don't believe there is a bandwagon of hate here, as a matter of fact I highly doubt anyone here hates this team, we all want to see them succeed. But, not all of us can look at everything with our rose colored glasses on. My only point was that you constantly go to bat for Mariner and the FO no matter what, which you have every right to do. If I hated this team I wouldn't watch them, I wouldnt follow them, end of story.

But after 7 coaches in 6 years, no playoffs and Anselmi still having a job, these results are just not good enough for me.. 7 points out of 21 is not good enough for me, a coach with limited experience implementing a system where we have the ball 30% of the time and invite waves and waves of pressure is not good enough for me. A coach that doesn't not start our better players (my opinion only) and start players drastically less skilled, is not good enough for me. A coach who starts the same starting 11 that played in the unbearable humidity of Dallas, without realizing that there would be a drop off in there fitness a mere 3 days later playing in humidity again, is not good enough for me!

[jrober38]

Definitely need to go back to a diamond midfield because a.) it provides more cover for our inexperienced defense and because b.) it allows us to keep more possession of the ball.

We have two extremely athletic Full Backs who can run all day. We're better off staying compact sitting three midfielders in front of the defense relying on our Full Backs to run the wings and get the ball into the box than we are stretching ourselves out into two lines. With the traditional 4-4-2, the gaps between the defense and mids are too large, and we don't have any natural wingers to run an effective counter attack.

Go back to:

Hall -- Eckersley - Emory - Morgan
-- Dunnfield - Frings - De Guzman
------------- Avila
------ Johnson - Koevermanns

And we'll be much better off.

[T-boy]

More of a general comment then something specific in your post as there are quite a few references (from the same person) in regards to a tough schedule.

Just wondering more out loud why Mariner gets a pass yet Winter doesn't? Maybe it was because in 2011, Winter performed in spite of the schedule and didn't need the excuse book?

Mariner gets a pass because he's 6 games into his tenure. 6 games....about one month. Not a season and a half that Winter got. If you want to judge the manegers similarly, maybe we should wait a season and a half to judge Mariner, like a SOME people were clearly willing to wait for Winter.

[T-boy]

Definitely need to go back to a diamond midfield because a.) it provides more cover for our inexperienced defense and because b.) it allows us to keep more possession of the ball.

We have two extremely athletic Full Backs who can run all day. We're better off staying compact sitting three midfielders in front of the defense relying on our Full Backs to run the wings and get the ball into the box than we are stretching ourselves out into two lines. With the traditional 4-4-2, the gaps between the defense and mids are too large, and we don't have any natural wingers to run an effective counter attack.

Go back to:

Hall -- Eckersley - Emory - Morgan
-- Dunnfield - Frings - De Guzman
------------- Avila
------ Johnson - Koevermanns

And we'll be much better off.

I agree to playing like this at home. I'm not sure about away though. Mariner adopted for a VERY flat 4 along the midflield in Philly. I think he did this to make us "hard to beat" away rather than trying to win. I think this was a good theory seeing it was another hot humid day. I would definitely prefer though, to see Mariner adopt a more attacking formation with a AM sitting behind the strikers though. We ALL want to see attacking, attractive football at home.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Mariner is not preaching patience nor should he. The team made the change for results now. Expectations are high.

[ryan]

Mariner gets a pass because he's 6 games into his tenure. 6 games....about one month. Not a season and a half that Winter got. If you want to judge the manegers similarly, maybe we should wait a season and a half to judge Mariner, like a SOME people were clearly willing to wait for Winter.

He's been building his team for almost 2 years now as far as I'm concerned. Evident with his stubbornness of playing "Paul's boys" regardless of their stamina level.

[T-boy]

He's been building his team for almost 2 years now as far as I'm concerned. Evident with his stubbornness of playing "Paul's boys" regardless of their stamina level.

I keep asking the same question over and over on here, but nobody seems to try and answer:

Can anybody NAME the players that Mariner is responsible for bringing to the club? Ecks, Lambe, for sure. Who else?

If people think this is "Mariner's team" that he's put together - then do we KNOW for sure which players he's responsible for?

A lot of people agree that Winter had the final say on transfers, but Mariner brought SOME players. But if we can work out WHICH players he was responsible for, then we can judge him on those transfers.

Answers on a postcard....

[Greatest Ripoff]

I keep asking the same question over and over on here, but nobody seems to try and answer:

Can anybody NAME the players that Mariner is responsible for bringing to the club? Ecks, Lambe, for sure. Who else?

If people think this is "Mariner's team" that he's put together - then do we KNOW for sure which players he's responsible for?

A lot of people agree that Winter had the final say on transfers, but Mariner brought SOME players. But if we can work out WHICH players he was responsible for, then we can judge him on those transfers.

Answers on a postcard....

I've posted this about four times since Friday. On the TSN FC podcast Earl Cochrane that said Mariner and himself were the ones in charge of signing players under Winter.

[jrober38]

I agree to playing like this at home. I'm not sure about away though. Mariner adopted for a VERY flat 4 along the midflield in Philly. I think he did this to make us "hard to beat" away rather than trying to win. I think this was a good theory seeing it was another hot humid day. I would definitely prefer though, to see Mariner adopt a more attacking formation with a AM sitting behind the strikers though. We ALL want to see attacking, attractive football at home.

We need to play this all the time.

Our defense is not good enough to play a 4-4-2. They're often out of place, and accordingly I think they need 3 combative midfielders sitting in front of them all the time to break up the attacks before they happen, so there aren't as many free passes in behind our back four.

This team is nowhere close to good enough to ever come back against anyone. We're at our best when we can flood the middle of the field and sit back in defense. When we have to attack, the space to play in the midfield gets bigger, and our defense often gets shredded.

[Canary10]

Mariner gets a pass because he's 6 games into his tenure. 6 games....about one month. Not a season and a half that Winter got. If you want to judge the manegers similarly, maybe we should wait a season and a half to judge Mariner, like a SOME people were clearly willing to wait for Winter.

Not to nit-pick, but 7 games in charge. He's on the speed of light clip of a point a game so far.

[T-boy]

Not to nit-pick, but 7 games in charge. He's on the speed of light clip of a point a game so far.

Lol, I thought it was 7, but I changed it to 6 when I edited the post!

[T-boy]

I've posted this about four times since Friday. On the TSN FC podcast Earl Cochrane that said Mariner and himself were the ones in charge of signing players under Winter.

So Winter wasn't in charge of signings at ALL?

Strikes me as that's where the issue was with Winter! How can a guy be in charge of a football club, and not be in charge of acquisitions? I always think that's a massive error in any football club.

I can't blame Mariner OR Winter for the results, in that case though.

If Mariner was always in charge of the first team, maybe the players HE brought in would have been played the way they are used to. And vice versa, maybe if Winter was in charge of acquisitions and brought in HIS players maybe they would have played the way he wanted to?

Also, does this mean Mariner and Cochrane were the people to bring Sooslma and Martina to the club? I thought they were purely down to Winter? In which case, its definitely NOT correct that Mariner and Cockrane were solely in charge of bringing the players in. Winter MUST have some input.

[T-boy]

I've posted this about four times since Friday. On the TSN FC podcast Earl Cochrane that said Mariner and himself were the ones in charge of signing players under Winter.

But does that mean that they were the ones in charge of scouting and picking them? Or the onces in charge of contracts and negotiations? There is quite a big difference between the two.

[denime]

I keep asking the same question over and over on here, but nobody seems to try and answer:

Can anybody NAME the players that Mariner is responsible for bringing to the club? Ecks, Lambe, for sure. Who else?

If people think this is "Mariner's team" that he's put together - then do we KNOW for sure which players he's responsible for?

A lot of people agree that Winter had the final say on transfers, but Mariner brought SOME players. But if we can work out WHICH players he was responsible for, then we can judge him on those transfers.

Answers on a postcard....

Mr. selective reader,here is one more time just for you.


I've posted this about four times since Friday. On the TSN FC podcast Earl Cochrane that said Mariner and himself were the ones in charge of signing players under Winter.

[jrober38]

So Winter wasn't in charge of signings at ALL?

Strikes me as that's where the issue was with Winter! How can a guy be in charge of a football club, and not be in charge of acquisitions? I always think that's a massive error in any football club.

I can't blame Mariner OR Winter for the results, in that case though.

If Mariner was always in charge of the first team, maybe the players HE brought in would have been played the way they are used to. And vice versa, maybe if Winter was in charge of acquisitions and brought in HIS players maybe they would have played the way he wanted to?

Also, does this mean Mariner and Cochrane were the people to bring Sooslma and Martina to the club? I thought they were purely down to Winter? In which case, its definitely NOT correct that Mariner and Cockrane were solely in charge of bringing the players in. Winter MUST have some input.

All the questions you're asking explain why the team is in as big a mess as it is.

There is no single figure head in charge of the teams operations. Different people hold important jobs that directly inhibit other people from doing their jobs as well as they'd like to. You either need someone to run the show from behind the scenes and have a coach who fully understands what's he's trying to do, or you need a coach who has full reign to bring in the players he needs to implement his system.

Having anything in between where management roles aren't clearly defined is a recipe for disaster, which is what we're looking at right now.

[denime]

But does that mean that they were the ones in charge of scouting and picking them? Or the onces in charge of contracts and negotiations? There is quite a big difference between the two.

OMG,do we have to bring you Winter himself to tell you that Mariner and Cockrane were responsible for bullshit roster that we have in order for you to believe?
It was reported including Nesta transfer that Mariner and Cockrane were refusing to sign players that Winter/BDK wanted,how ever Mariner/Cockrane brought Winter players like Aceval and Caceido a week before the 1st game,at least Winter was able to send one home on time.

They BS many transfers and both of them are equally responsible for roster as Winter.

[T-boy]

Mr. selective reader,here is one more time just for you.

We seem to be having a time machine issue, as you wrote that answer after I asked it, I didn't ask it again! I don't know why you are calling me a selective reader, when I asked a question, then you answered it next post. I read it then, not before I posted!

[Brooker]

If there was relegation, we'd be in house league now.

Atleast we might win on a somewhat regular basis...

[T-boy]

All the questions you're asking explain why the team is in as big a mess as it is.

There is no single figure head in charge of the teams operations. Different people hold important jobs that directly inhibit other people from doing their jobs as well as they'd like to. You either need someone to run the show from behind the scenes and have a coach who fully understands what's he's trying to do, or you need a coach who has full reign to bring in the players he needs to implement his system.

Having anything in between where management roles aren't clearly defined is a recipe for disaster, which is what we're looking at right now.

Good post.

[ryan]

I think DaBandit's assumption that T-Boy is Tommy Boy might have legs.

I would expect the real Anselmi to be this lost to what was going on :D

[T-boy]

I think DaBandit's assumption that T-Boy is Tommy Boy might have legs.

I would expect the real Anselmi to be this lost to what was going on :D

Thanks guys, I'm clearly a dumbo. I think I'll give up this forum.

I stopped posting at bigsoccer as it was full of guys who didn't like a different opinion to all there's.

We can have different opinions without being called names over and over agian. It's getting very tiresome :(

[Richard]

I fail to see why this organization cannot have one real football manager. A person who does player aquisition and coach from the touchline. Everyone else in the organization should be specific coaches to work with players, lawyers for contracts and a president who takes care of the business side and creating connections in the world of football. What we have now is ambigious roles which conflict with eachothers personal motives. Of course hiring this person would mean they would ha e to have experiance and know there shit.

[Chris Wren]

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings,ask yourself would I be here if I hate this team.

I do hate the way Anslemi operates this team,and if you want to get fucked by him and the rest on donkeys in TFC FO,that's your prerogative,just make sure to apply Nivea Vaseline that TFC gave us for free few months back at BMO,but my but hurts and I run out of Nivea so I'll let them know as STH from day one how I feel about their mismanagement.

At the end of the day,you don't like the idea that supporters don't like loongball Mariner short fix and prefer Winter's possession style even though we were less successful but had better future,sorry that's something you will have to deal with on your own,I can't help you.

Mariner after 7 games 1-2-4,Goal difference -2 ,
Winter's last 7 games 3-2-2 goal difference 0

What the fuck are you talking about? Are you trying to fit a bunch of rape references in there because I asked you if it was really necessary? Stay classy dude.

Just once pay attention to something I say if you want to retort with a bunch of ignorant statements. Never have I said I like Anselmi. I haven't even said I like Mariner. I just didn't like Winter...I've already corrected you on this before. All I said was I'll give Mariner until the end of the season. Is that really ridiculous? A supporter who is willing to give the new coach till the end of the season to prove himself? You act like I'm out of line for giving the coach of our team a chance!

[trane]

Definitely need to go back to a diamond midfield because a.) it provides more cover for our inexperienced defense and because b.) it allows us to keep more possession of the ball.

We have two extremely athletic Full Backs who can run all day. We're better off staying compact sitting three midfielders in front of the defense relying on our Full Backs to run the wings and get the ball into the box than we are stretching ourselves out into two lines. With the traditional 4-4-2, the gaps between the defense and mids are too large, and we don't have any natural wingers to run an effective counter attack.

Go back to:

Hall -- Eckersley - Emory - Morgan
-- Dunnfield - Frings - De Guzman
------------- Avila
------ Johnson - Koevermanns

And we'll be much better off.

this is exaclty it. That is what I am talking about, and it always puzzles me that we get managers, year in and year out, that seem to fail to make the choices that would seem to me any competent manager would make. I look at the players we have, and if you want to play 4-4-2, this seems like a non-brainer. I want to give mariner a chance, but this seems so obvious.

You would get Frings in a Pirlo like role, which would only help the team, and Dunni and JDG would just keep it simple, defend and then simple passess out. This could realy give us results. But we will see.

[ryan]

Thanks guys, I'm clearly a dumbo. I think I'll give up this forum.

I stopped posting at bigsoccer as it was full of guys who didn't like a different opinion to all there's.

We can have different opinions without being called names over and over agian. It's getting very tiresome :(

Sorry mate, I was really just trying to have a bit of fun.

[BHTC Mike]

Did you read my post? I said the schedule Winter had was a game every 4 days at the start, and every other one of those essentially a playoff game.


More of a general comment then something specific in your post as there are quite a few references (from the same person) in regards to a tough schedule.

Just wondering more out loud why Mariner gets a pass yet Winter doesn't?
You guys are incredible.

In terms of travel and frequency, though not in terms of opponents, TFC has had a tough schedule over the past three and a half weeks. That is indisputable. It wouldn't excuse losing every single game in a row but it was clearly a factor Sunday night. You conflate an explanation for part of the reason why TFC looked sluggish in ONE GAME - one horrible, awful, diabolical, pathetic, timid, putrid, embarrassing shambles of a game - WITH LOSING NINE STRAIGHT LEAGUE GAMES IN A ROW. AFTER A SEASON WHERE HE ONLY WON SIX GAMES!

REPEAT:

TFC LOST NINE LEAGUE GAMES IN A ROW.

NINE!

NOT ONE.

NINE!

And Aron Winter didn't have "a game every four days at the start". At least not at the start of 2012.

TFC played at home versus LA then had a week to prepare for the away leg. They did play their first away game of the season on a short week in Seattle and most people weren't shocked when they lost 3-1.

Aron Winter then had an entire week to prepare the team for their league home opener. They lost. Horribly. San Jose were better than anyone realized but they embarrassed us just as badly as Philly just did and, like Philly, could have won 5-0 if they took all their chances. AT BMO!

That game WAS the start of a tough two a week stretch, 5 games in 15 days, that culminated in the first MLS game in Montreal. Yes, two of those games were CCL games against a very good opponent BUT three of them were home games. TFC's record over that stretch: 0W-1D-4L w/ -8GD. So yes, apparently Aron Winter performed fucking miracles when faced with a two a week schedule. He miraculously managed to draw a Mexican team while losing two out of two MLS games at home. How many home games has Mariner lost so far?

And keep in mind: after that one five game stretch of two games a week Winter then had an entire week to prepare the team for their next HOME GAME. They lost. Again. To a middling to weak Chivas team.

Then there was another full week to prepare for another HOME GAME. They actually took the lead this time but it lasted for all of 30 seconds. Regardless, they lost. Again.

As denime loves to point out Aron Winter did have the team performing better in May. But at no point in 2012 - not earlier, not in the good stretch at the end - did he face a stretch of 7 games in 22 days. Sorry, it just didn't happen. Add in that 5 of the 7 games have been on the road and it's not even comparable. Be willfully ignorant if you want to but you're only succeeding in showing how much of an agenda you have when it comes to Mariner if you can't acknowledge how difficult the schedule he was presented with really was.

And we still haven't lost back-to-back games yet in that stretch. If we turn in another bad performance Wednesday night I'll be much more concerned; this team was always going to be a project for the rest of the year. Watching last night's game was gut wrenching but we're a long, long, LONG way from nine in a row.


Maybe it was because in 2011, Winter performed in spite of the schedule and didn't need the excuse book?
Didn't need an excuse book? Other than our magical (weather aided) NCC/CCL run the the season was one big excuse book about learning a system, "not enough quality", and injured CBs. You might choose to remember it otherwise because of the better second half but people were making excuses from day one after we lost to an expansion team 4-2 in their first ever game.

AND VIRTUALLY NO ONE WAS CALLING FOR ARON WINTER'S HEAD.

Seriously. Even people like myself who were completely unconvinced and had serious reservations about Klinsmann's involvement, "the system", and Winter himself were prepared to give him another offseason to prepare the team because we recognized the need for stability and that he needed time to execute his vision.

HE FAILED. MISERABLY. WE SET A NEW RECORD FOR FUTILITY.

One loss. One horrible performance away from home. That's not even in the same ballpark yet.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Everbody chill. It's relative.

Different people will give these 2 coaches being discussed different time. Expectations are different between the two. The comparisons can mean more to different supporters.

[denime]

As denime loves to point out Aron Winter did have the team performing better in May. But at no point in 2012 - not earlier, not in the good stretch at the end - did he face a stretch of 7 games in 22 days. Sorry, it just didn't happen.

You are right TFC had 7 games in 24 days,the whole two days more and still managed to go 3-2-2,what is better than 1-2-4.


We brought in an inexperienced Winter (because he was cheap to get)to change the culture and set this club for long term success,Winter needed seasoning as a coach but there was light at the end of the tunnel. As soon as there was some success in the month of May, they fired him.Winter should have had the rest of the year,or fired in April and new coach who will actually TWEAK the team carry on.

The fact is we stuck through all the bad times in 2011/12 and his last month you could see things turning around.Why make the change when he had recent success,the year was lost anyway as far as playoffs.

[69Chevy396]

You are right TFC had 7 games in 24 days,the whole two days more and still managed to go 3-2-2,what is better than 1-2-4.


We brought in an inexperienced Winter (because he was cheap to get)to change the culture and set this club for long term success,Winter needed seasoning as a coach but there was light at the end of the tunnel. As soon as there was some success in the month of May, they fired him.Winter should have had the rest of the year,or fired in April and new coach who will actually TWEAK the team carry on.

The fact is we stuck through all the bad times in 2011/12 and his last month you could see things turning around.Why make the change when he had recent success,the year was lost anyway as far as playoffs. Sorry, but it is thinking like this that helps organizations in Toronto give us decades of ineptitude....how low do we need to lower our standards in this city before the realization that we are being robbed blind sinks in? Are we still paying the highest average prices for tickets here? Do we still pay double what Americans do for a stinking glass of beer and hot dog? Firing a rookie coach who had no business being hired in the first place was the right thing to do, too bad it took so long for these dimwits to make that decision.

[BHTC Mike]

You are right TFC had 7 games in 24 days,the whole two days more and still managed to go 3-2-2,what is better than 1-2-4.
The "whole two days more" is actually three and it's vital. That wasn't just three extra days randomly spread around the month. It was an entire week between the Wednesday game against Montreal and the Wednesday game in Vancouver. Playing on two or three days rest for three - it was actually four in two weeks but the other was a loss so you ignore that - games in a week, then having six days off, then playing four more games in two weeks is not the same thing as playing on two or three days rest for seven games consecutively. It's a tough schedule but it's not the same thing. That's a simple fact. And, since you insist on not acknowledging this and treating the two stretches as if they were somehow equivalent I'll again note that Winter's 3-2-2 stretch to finish included four home games and three away games to Mariner's two home games and five away games. Again: not comparable.

Regardless, due to CCL and ACC commitments Aron Winter faced a tougher schedule than just about any other MLS manager had so far in 2012. That's not hard to see. But that doesn't excuse an 0-0-9 start in league play after an entire season spend rebuilding. That doesn't excuse losing multiple home games with a week to prepare for them on multiple occasions.

During Paul Mariner's short time in charge, TFC has faced an even tougher schedule than they did under Aron Winter at any point in 2012. That is also indisputable. So far, Mariner hasn't done spectacular but, in spite of the schedule, the team is gaining points in the league more consistently then they did earlier in the season. If the team hadn't started so spectacularly poorly earlier in the year it's quite possible that Mariner would be being applauded for keeping the team competitive over a difficult stretch.

Doesn't make a game like last night any easier to watch but it does help explain what happened.


The fact is we stuck through all the bad times in 2011/12 and his last month you could see things turning around.Why make the change when he had recent success,the year was lost anyway as far as playoffs.
When is this going to sink in: HE lost the year! BY MAY! His league record, when things were "turning around" in May, was 1W-0D-2L from two home games and one away game. And the win, though deserved, was as marginal as you can get. The team had lead for all of three and half minutes all season.

Aron Winter was removed because, other than one sorta almost respectable stretch in the last 11 games of 2011, he never managed to get the team prepared to compete in MLS. Not after a year of rebuilding, millions spent on DPs, and the "final pieces" added this offseason.

No one can predict the future. Maybe Aron Winter was on the cusp of having everything click and actually getting the team turned around. Maybe over this same stretch he'd have won one of our two home games as well as one of those five away games. No one can know.

What we do know however is that he was given 44 league games in charge, more than any other TFC manager, and could only win 7 of them. He only won 1 of his last 14 in charge!

Changing, not changing: it's all a gamble. Mariner might not be the right guy. If he only wins 1 out of his first 14 games there'll be little argument for keeping him. But the suggestion that losing ONE GAME, in the midst of a tough stretch of travel, proves ANYTHING positive or negative is crazy. It's a data point. A single one. I'll file it away for when I start to come to firmer conclusions about whether he's an appropriate choice to be given more time.

[Auzzy]

29% possession first half? Effing unbelievable. 37% over the whole game? Wow. Philly runs a handful of dangerous plays over & over again from the beginning, but the team & the coach don't adjust? No way. Unbelievably hot & humid weather in Philly, even hotter & more humid for the previous day's training, end of a road trip for TFC, and Mariner trots out the exact same starting lineup as in the previous game? YHGTBFKM!

Folks, this is crap. Do we really need a 15-page thread to discuss if the team is now a lighter shade of brown than earlier this season under a different coach? It's still shit.

[dutch]

imo kocic's knee was fubared after the knee on knee collision. he tried to play on but should not have been allowed to stay on the field. he was never in position or jumping for balls after that. the team looked horrible, cant blame the goalie when they let it rain lone forwards on him. there is too much work and not enough leadership and skill to get it done. mariner is nobody special, frings will be gone soon to go coach the youth team in bremen, koevs wont resign if the team sucks. people in toronto like to bitch and moan and say nothing ever gets done. i have a vote everyday in this team. i dont buy into the crap goin on down at the lake, i watch every game at home and follow the team online. but im no ones fool. theres tons of great soccer in canada. i wont be another bum in the seats allowing this to go on. if you enjoy bein at the carry on by all means, but i wont support mlse with my dollar ever again in any sport until they play 'all out' even in down and out games and act like real athletes. thats all i can do and the most i can do.

[Shakes McQueen]

I was calling for Winter's firing, not because I did not like the idea of what he was trying to do, but simply because it had become clear that it was unlikely that he would get this team to be competitive. However, when I saw that they fired winter, and hired mariner, who had obviously been hired with winter, whom I would assign much of the blame, was hired to replace him. I am also surprised ( that is not rely the right word in that MLSE no longer really sunrises me) that Mariner decided to scrap the system completely.

A normal team would have done what Philly had done. Having said that now that Mariner has been hired I would say that he should be given a chance, just as Winter was, and winter was given almost 70 games, it is too early to call for his firing. I always think that 10 games is enough to be able to assess. To be honest it has not been all too crap under Mariner, but clearly it is hardly impressive.

I like Danny K and Johnson upfront. If you are going to use a 4-4-2, I would use a 4-3-1-2, with basically 3 holding mids ( as we do not have the Canadian Shield-we need to protect them) with Frings in the middle, and Dunfield and JDG on each side, as half wings (Italian terms), we have two options at AM/SS in Avila and Silva.

This is essentially my position, minus the "Canadian Shield" snark.

Though one small correction I would make, is that they didn't really "hire Mariner" after firing Winter. They just shuffled the assistant into the main job, after the main guy floundered. It's a pretty standard management time-buying tactic in pro sports (at least on this side of the Atlantic). Offer up the highly visible head coach as a sacrifice to the angry fanbase, and put the assistant in his place until you can figure out what to do (and hope that guy performs a miracle).

Where I am with you 100% is this: I think Mariner should have paid for this team's failure with his job, along with Winter and Cochrane, but he didn't. And as he's now our coach, I think he deserves some time to prove his mettle, the same as any other coach, before I will declare him a failure.

I'm still frankly kind of stunned to see such vociferous defense of Winter though, from some folks here. There's no doubt that he got the job done in the ACC, but going 1-9 simply isn't acceptable in the league. And there were no signs of that turning around any time soon - Winter's one league win in his last game, came against a team nearly as bad as ours. And it wasn't convincing.

Nor do I buy the argument that going 1-9 in the league was fine because he was still building something greater here - the man managed better results last season, despite turning over most of our roster in that time, even if the overall league record was still poor. You don't need MULTIPLE years to "build" in this league, as is being demonstrated to us every day by other, even younger teams than our own.

I liked Winter, and I really bought into the bill of goods he was selling us last season, about a grand new system, a top to bottom club culture, and so on. But all of that grandiosity doesn't buy you the rights to another "five year plan", when the team is clearly showing signs of regression.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Mr. selective reader,here is one more time just for you.

Let's take at face value that Cochrane and Mariner found and signed the players, and Winter (by extension) just used what they gave him. In what sense, then, was Winter "building" anything with this club? If that's true, then he was just another glorified management puppet, not worthy of anyone's defense.

Or - if Winter is the one who charged them with carrying out those tasks, then he's just as responisble for their failure as they are.

Or more likely, did Winter identify names or player archetypes he was looking for, then Cochrane and Mariner looked after scouring the market and the actual process of signing players - much like Dave Nonis does with the Leafs?. Of course, this scenario would also leave Winter equally as culpable.

- Scott

[FreekAce]

I don't know were to start,I think YOU ARE Mariner,or his best buddy and defiantly on something good:stogey:,can I have it too,please?

Philly played Wednesday in LA,we beat Philly with Winter 1-0,heatwave was for both teams,go checks schedule in March and April and you will see we had a lots of midweek games,stop apologizing for mariner,he is over his head and wont last past this season.

haha, every time i read something by him i think the exact same thing, thanks for your input paul....

[FreekAce]

So Winter wasn't in charge of signings at ALL?

Strikes me as that's where the issue was with Winter! How can a guy be in charge of a football club, and not be in charge of acquisitions? I always think that's a massive error in any football club.

I can't blame Mariner OR Winter for the results, in that case though.

If Mariner was always in charge of the first team, maybe the players HE brought in would have been played the way they are used to. And vice versa, maybe if Winter was in charge of acquisitions and brought in HIS players maybe they would have played the way he wanted to?

Also, does this mean Mariner and Cochrane were the people to bring Sooslma and Martina to the club? I thought they were purely down to Winter? In which case, its definitely NOT correct that Mariner and Cockrane were solely in charge of bringing the players in. Winter MUST have some input.

winter was never fully in charge of this team. one of the big issues he had was too much meddling from people up top.

[Beach_Red]

Let's take at face value that Cochrane and Mariner found and signed the players, and Winter (by extension) just used what they gave him. In what sense, then, was Winter "building" anything with this club? If that's true, then he was just another glorified management puppet, not worthy of anyone's defense.

Or - if Winter is the one who charged them with carrying out those tasks, then he's just as responisble for their failure as they are.

Or more likely, did Winter identify names or player archetypes he was looking for, then Cochrane and Mariner looked after scouring the market and the actual process of signing players - much like Dave Nonis does with the Leafs?. Of course, this scenario would also leave Winter equally as culpable.

- Scott

Yeah, I think your "more likely" scenario is very likely. But doesn't that put the ultimate responsibility with the consultant who sold them a plan that would require a particular type of player to fit into the salary cap and roster restrictions of MLS? Or with the upper management that bought the plan without fully looking into its viability?

Identifying the archtypes is fine if there are plenty of them available (with the proper passports) at prices the team is able to afford.

[Shakes McQueen]

Yeah, I think your "more likely" scenario is very likely. But doesn't that put the ultimate responsibility with the consultant who sold them a plan that would require a particular type of player to fit into the salary cap and roster restrictions of MLS? Or with the upper management that bought the plan without fully looking into its viability?

Identifying the archtypes is fine if there are plenty of them available (with the proper passports) at prices the team is able to afford.

Sure, Klinsmann's consulting firm is responsible too - but they already got their paycheck and left ages ago, so any rage focused their direction is completely impotent. But I don't think that lets everyone else off the hook at all.

There are lots of parties who share some percentage of "blame" for the state of affairs at TFC.

- Scott

[Canary10]

Shakes, I totally agree with you. I'm surprised too at how much a defence Winter is getting, and how much leeway supporters seemed willing to give him. I consider myself as strong a Winter supporter as anyone, but even I couldn't defend the record.

I think what you're seeing though is more a reaction against Mariner's tactics than a defence of Winter. Clearly people aren't happy with Mariner's throwing the baby out with the bathwater in this reversion to stone age tactics of long balls to two big target men. If a manager had been hired who was committed to the philosophy of the team but could simplify the tactics a bit I think people would be happier. I note the guy I've been pushing - Caleb Porter - is being mentioned regarding the Portland job. We should be trying to get him right now.

[BHTC Mike]

Or more likely, did Winter identify names or player archetypes he was looking for, then Cochrane and Mariner looked after scouring the market and the actual process of signing players - much like Dave Nonis does with the Leafs?. Of course, this scenario would also leave Winter equally as culpable.


Yeah, I think your "more likely" scenario is very likely.
Of course it is and it'd be borderline unbelievable that Winter, as head coach AND technical director, the man "in charge of implementing the vision laid out by Jurgen Klinnsman" wouldn't have a final veto on player acquisitions. Surely Winter and De Klerk were expected to combine their network of contacts with Mariner's and those in-house at TFC (and the league) to identify possible targets. Does anyone seriously believe that Alen Stevanovic - remember him! - ended up here on loan from Torino as a part-property of Aron Winter's former club because of Paul Mariner? Does anyone seriously think that Aron Winter was forced to take Andy Iro in exchange for Tony Tchani, after his "now I start making some trades!" rant last summer, and couldn't have nixed that move too? Yes, he may have wanted (or even expected) to keep DeRo. He gets a complete pass on that one from everyone because he had nothing to do with the making of that situation and had to deal with the consequences... LAST YEAR! (Of course, neither did Mariner yet he somehow gets his name thrown in with Anselmi and Cochrane in some posts on this forum.)

Is it possible that Winter was occasionally overruled about a player move, particularly decisions about who to bring in and at what price, by a group decision of Mariner, Cochrane, and senior management? Sure, that doesn't seem unlikely and it happens at just about every club in the world where the manager has to work under a budget and get approval from the board for new signings. Outside of managers who've created such a cult of personality around themselves that they're unchallengable inside the club (SAF) virtually every manager everywhere complains about not being able to get the players they "needed" after they're fired! This is hardly original stuff.*

And none of the above is incompatible with Cochrane's TSN interview quote that is being bandied about as "proof" that Winter wasn't in charge of the roster. Again, most likely, because of the particulars of MLS contracts, their experience in that area, and Aron Winter's 100% COMPLETE INEXPERIENCE with that side of football management the actual negotiations, paperwork, and "signings" were left to Cochrane and Mariner. I'd hope that's what the paper pushing GM of the team was doing! But the point is that they were all working under the direction of Aron Winter. As muddled as the organizational structure was HE was the guy in charge, TFC was his team, and he paid the price for their lack of league success. I can't see any way to argue otherwise.

*To be fair to Winter, he's a indisputably a gentleman and isn't the one making that claim. It's the last holdouts still trying to rationalize his failure or pre-emptively saddle Mariner with responsibility for Winter's record pushing that interpretation.

[denime]

Shakes, I totally agree with you. I'm surprised too at how much a defence Winter is getting, and how much leeway supporters seemed willing to give him. I consider myself as strong a Winter supporter as anyone, but even I couldn't defend the record.

I think what you're seeing though is more a reaction against Mariner's tactics than a defence of Winter. Clearly people aren't happy with Mariner's throwing the baby out with the bathwater in this reversion to stone age tactics of long balls to two big target men. If a manager had been hired who was committed to the philosophy of the team but could simplify the tactics a bit I think people would be happier. I note the guy I've been pushing - Caleb Porter - is being mentioned regarding the Portland job. We should be trying to get him right now.

THIS!

I said it before several times,Winter was suppose to get canned in April,no issues with me.My issue is with TFC FO,extending Mariners contract a month before Winter was fired and giving job,instead(like Philly)give the job to Ass.Coach until you find a proper coach who will follow up with the club philosophy.

Last game vs Philly was like watching Spain-Ireland were we made Philly look like Spain,ffs.

However,Mariner is coach for time being,I want comment about him anymore,for me it's clear that he is over his head and with boot ball TFC will stay bottom feeder for years to come.

[Beach_Red]

Sure, Klinsmann's consulting firm is responsible too - but they already got their paycheck and left ages ago, so any rage focused their direction is completely impotent. But I don't think that lets everyone else off the hook at all.

There are lots of parties who share some percentage of "blame" for the state of affairs at TFC.

- Scott

The only reason I keep bringing up the consultants is because I never want to see that happen again - I can take a losing team, but bringing in consultants is just too embarrassing.... :)

[Shakes McQueen]

Shakes, I totally agree with you. I'm surprised too at how much a defence Winter is getting, and how much leeway supporters seemed willing to give him. I consider myself as strong a Winter supporter as anyone, but even I couldn't defend the record.

I think what you're seeing though is more a reaction against Mariner's tactics than a defence of Winter. Clearly people aren't happy with Mariner's throwing the baby out with the bathwater in this reversion to stone age tactics of long balls to two big target men. If a manager had been hired who was committed to the philosophy of the team but could simplify the tactics a bit I think people would be happier. I note the guy I've been pushing - Caleb Porter - is being mentioned regarding the Portland job. We should be trying to get him right now.

Mariner's tactics are a fair point of criticism - I'm not a big fan of them myself, even if they are garnering something Winter's tactics weren't, which is league points (single points so far, anyway). And as I've said since the beginning, I'm not convinced Mariner is this team's future at manager.

But he is our manager now, and I think he deserves a fair shot to sink or swim on his own. And the ongoing rationalization of Winter's dismal league record just baffles me.

- Scott

[Beach_Red]

He (Winter) gets a complete pass on that one from everyone because he had nothing to do with the making of that situation and had to deal with the consequences... LAST YEAR! (Of course, neither did Mariner yet he somehow gets his name thrown in with Anselmi and Cochrane in some posts on this forum.)



Mariner probably gets lumped in with those guys because he's still here, doing what he can to try and salvage something from this mess.

Sure, the 'system' looked terrible against Philly but it was a team effort. I haven't checked the stats, but my guess watching the game was that was the most give-aways by Kouvermans in his career - people were adamant about not blaming Winter for player mistakes, the same should hold for Mariner. The team didn't play "Winter's system" and on Sunday they didn't play "Mariner's system."

But the bigger picture, this road TFC was apparently on towards beautiful, attacking soccer was simply being undone by every other team in the league so they have to find a different way. Maybe this is one step back in order to take some steps forward.

At least this is less arrogant and they've stopped talking about "changing the way the game is played in North America."

[Shakes McQueen]

The only reason I keep bringing up the consultants is because I never want to see that happen again - I can take a losing team, but bringing in consultants is just too embarrassing.... :)

I didn't hate the move - MLSE don't know soccer, so they paid someone who (ostensibly) did to advise them on who to hire, and how to run the team more effectively. Or so we were told, anyway.

A better move would be to hire someone with genuine footy knowledge and management skills to take Anselmi's current position with the team, but I didn't think the consultant route was a bad one at the time.

- Scott

[Canary10]

Mariner's tactics are a fair point of criticism - I'm not a big fan of them myself, even if they are garnering something Winter's tactics weren't, which is league points (single points so far, anyway). And as I've said since the beginning, I'm not convinced Mariner is this team's future at manager.

But he is our manager now, and I think he deserves a fair shot to sink or swim on his own. And the ongoing rationalization of Winter's dismal league record just baffles me.

- Scott

When Liverpool hired Rodgers, I read an article that made a lot of sense to me. Being a professional manager involves knowing what to do now, while having the foresight to know where the game is going in the future. Rodgers, it said, is a guy who gets both ends of that spectrum, and can build a team for where the EPL is going 5 years down the road.

My view is the team (or Klinsmann) identified the right direction of where MLS is clearly going. Problem with Mariner, is he's still playing the MLS of 2005 when there were only 10 teams in the league and 8 of them made the playoffs. AND, he's only on track so far to basically equal Winter's point total last year.

[Phil]

winter was never fully in charge of this team. one of the big issues he had was too much meddling from people up top.

Sigh. The story remains the same. This team really needs to stop hiring new coaches and actually address the issues preventing this group from being a success.

[jrober38]

When Liverpool hired Rodgers, I read an article that made a lot of sense to me. Being a professional manager involves knowing what to do now, while having the foresight to know where the game is going in the future. Rodgers, it said, is a guy who gets both ends of that spectrum, and can build a team for where the EPL is going 5 years down the road.

My view is the team (or Klinsmann) identified the right direction of where MLS is clearly going. Problem with Mariner, is he's still playing the MLS of 2005 when there were only 10 teams in the league and 8 of them made the playoffs. AND, he's only on track so far to basically equal Winter's point total last year.

His tactics are definitely not contemporary with how the league plays now. In the past you could afford to play a simple 4-4-2 and just boot the ball to a target man because there wasn't a lot of technical skill in the league, but today that doesn't work because the quality of players has improved.

For me, the most basic measure of how good a manager is to evaluate how they do at putting their players in the best possible spots to succeed. So far, that hasn't happened. He sticks to a rigid 4-4-2 when we don't have any true wide midfielders, and he does very little in game to adjust to where the opposition are attacking us from.

Our best showings have been when we used a diamond midfield, with three central midfielders screening our inexperienced defense, yet for some reason we've opted to use a flat 4 man midfield instead and have been slaughtered in the process.

If you can't get your game to game tactics right, it's tough to imagine the coach having the necessary vision to formulate a long term plan for how he wants the team to play 2-5 years down the road.

I think the coaching has been a let down, and needs to be improved.

[BHTC Mike]

I think what you're seeing though is more a reaction against Mariner's tactics than a defence of Winter. Clearly people aren't happy with Mariner's throwing the baby out with the bathwater in this reversion to stone age tactics of long balls to two big target men. If a manager had been hired who was committed to the philosophy of the team but could simplify the tactics a bit I think people would be happier.
But that's the thing. The last three weeks aren't about the long term or vision of where Mariner sees the team going. They're about getting a really bad team back to competitive over the extreme short term during a really tough stretch of the schedule. Again: five away games out of our last seven matches with no full week in between any of them! Really, can you imagine any coach coming in during the international break, looking at the schedule he was about to face, evaluating the lack of experience on our back line, and deciding to do anything other than playing a really simple system that concentrates on forcing the other team to beat you rather than going out and trying to impose your style on them?

And no matter how you slice it: 7 points from 7 games, while not good, is a hell of a lot better than 3 points from 10 games.

I don't need to see fluid on the deck tiki taka by the end of the year but if Mariner can't get the team playing a composed and organized system by the end of the summer then it's time to start thinking about another replacement (again). But I'm not prepared to force an a priori critera that the system has to be possession based. You can play good football that doesn't emphasize possession; what Paul Mariner does is up to him. I'd be very happy if TFC could adopt a smart counterattacking style that concedes possession to opponents to invite them forward before channelling them into deadends, stripping the ball, and quickly launching counters into the space opened up as the other team moves forward. Those counters don't have to be long balls either. trane's pushing 4-3-1-2 for the team (and I agree that we've looked best under Mariner in that sort of formation) and, if we could ever get an elite AM like DeRo or Guevara to link play, quick counters on the deck could lead to some really exciting soccer. Avila's okay but he's a good MLS depth player and Silva's got a long way to go before he's anywhere near the level of a Morales, Ferreira, or Rosales. We wouldn't be Barcelona or Ajax or the Dutch national team Aron Winter played with but it's the sort of approach I can actually imagine us affecting successfully here with the players we have access to.

(Still angry about the fact that we don't have Tony Tchani to show for the DeRo trade! I think that kid still has a future in this league and would be great platooning with Dunfield and De Guzman in a 3 DM system.)


I note the guy I've been pushing - Caleb Porter - is being mentioned regarding the Portland job. We should be trying to get him right now.
And he'd be a good choice with a respectable resume and history of success. If he doesn't take the Portland job and Mariner doesn't have things turned around by the end of the year I'd take a run at him in the offseason. I don't think he'd have been very interested in taking over our team mid-summer though. To pry him away from Akron will take a very handsome multi-year contract, the right to bring along his own staff, and probably promises of more control than MLSE would give a rookie pro head coach. It's unfortunate, but that's the TFC we support.

[Yohan]

His tactics are definitely not contemporary with how the league plays now. In the past you could afford to play a simple 4-4-2 and just boot the ball to a target man because there wasn't a lot of technical skill in the league, but today that doesn't work because the quality of players has improved.

For me, the most basic measure of how good a manager is to evaluate how they do at putting their players in the best possible spots to succeed. So far, that hasn't happened. He sticks to a rigid 4-4-2 when we don't have any true wide midfielders, and he does very little in game to adjust to where the opposition are attacking us from.

Our best showings have been when we used a diamond midfield, with three central midfielders screening our inexperienced defense, yet for some reason we've opted to use a flat 4 man midfield instead and have been slaughtered in the process.

If you can't get your game to game tactics right, it's tough to imagine the coach having the necessary vision to formulate a long term plan for how he wants the team to play 2-5 years down the road.

I think the coaching has been a let down, and needs to be improved.

I find it interesting that even the biggest supporters of 4-4-2 longball in MLS (and winning with it) is now switching to 4-3-3/4-5-1, like Yallop and Kinnear.

[Oldtimer]

My view is the team (or Klinsmann) identified the right direction of where MLS is clearly going. Problem with Mariner, is he's still playing the MLS of 2005 when there were only 10 teams in the league and 8 of them made the playoffs. AND, he's only on track so far to basically equal Winter's point total last year.

Klinnsman was actually correct in that regard. Plus, he brought in Frings, a huge asset to the team (at least until the current style of play came in).
The vision also tied in well with where TFC Academy is headed.

The problem is that the wrong coach was hired, plus Anselmi also put in place a structure where even if Winter was the right guy, he couldn't succeed, and there was no president of football with the knowledge and ability to correct things when they went south, only Anselmi going by the seat of the pants. I would love to see if Klinnsman had recommended a proper structure, or if he only recommended direction and some possible coaching candidates.

MLS is evolving from a route A league, and more technical, possession-oriented play is part of the equation, however it remains a lot more physical than say Spain. So the right type of play (and the right type of coach) recognizes the direction, but doesn't try to rigidly import a foreign style that doesn't take into account the physicality of the league.

[jrober38]

I find it interesting that even the biggest supporters of 4-4-2 longball in MLS (and winning with it) is now switching to 4-3-3/4-5-1, like Yallop and Kinnear.

Aside from some English teams, hardly anyone uses the 4-4-2 anymore. At the international level, and all across Europe, teams use 4-3-3 or 4-5-1.

Those are the tactics that work today, so it's not all that surprising that the top MLS teams are copying what's working abroad.

[Yohan]

(Still angry about the fact that we don't have Tony Tchani to show for the DeRo trade! I think that kid still has a future in this league and would be great platooning with Dunfield and De Guzman in a 3 DM system.)
Tchani has been getting regular mins with Columbus, and looking decent getting over his terrible injury woes. I think TFC can use him



And he'd be a good choice with a respectable resume and history of success. If he doesn't take the Portland job and Mariner doesn't have things turned around by the end of the year I'd take a run at him in the offseason. I don't think he'd have been very interested in taking over our team mid-summer though. To pry him away from Akron will take a very handsome multi-year contract, the right to bring along his own staff, and probably promises of more control than MLSE would give a rookie pro head coach. It's unfortunate, but that's the TFC we support.

I dunno. I'm lukewarm about Porter. Sure, he has a great college resume, but aren't a lot of supporters pissed because we don't have an experienced MLS manager? He'd appease the possession based football supporters but from what I've seen during US U23 team, TFC will have a lot of growing pains if Porter is hired. Patience that very few supporters have anymore

[Canary10]

Tchani has been getting regular mins with Columbus, and looking decent getting over his terrible injury woes. I think TFC can use him



I dunno. I'm lukewarm about Porter. Sure, he has a great college resume, but aren't a lot of supporters pissed because we don't have an experienced MLS manager? He'd appease the possession based football supporters but from what I've seen during US U23 team, TFC will have a lot of growing pains if Porter is hired. Patience that very few supporters have anymore

Totally agree with you about Tchani.

Yeah, Porter has risks, but so does any manager. It's worthwhile to note that both Jesse Marsch and Martin Rennie didn't have MLS head coaching experience and both have excelled. I think the more important thing is knowledge of the North American game.

I'm also not advocating firing Mariner before the end of the season. He should stay on till the end in my opinion. Only suggesting that TFC have a good back up plan in case so they are ready to move when the season ends. I don't want to see another manager hired in January - which really got Winter off on the wrong foot as it was too late in the off-season at that point.

[BHTC Mike]

For me, the most basic measure of how good a manager is to evaluate how they do at putting their players in the best possible spots to succeed. So far, that hasn't happened. He sticks to a rigid 4-4-2 when we don't have any true wide midfielders, and he does very little in game to adjust to where the opposition are attacking us from.

Our best showings have been when we used a diamond midfield, with three central midfielders screening our inexperienced defense, yet for some reason we've opted to use a flat 4 man midfield instead and have been slaughtered in the process.
How can you say that he sticks with a rigid 4-4-2 then, a sentence later, acknowledge that we've looked best in something resembling a 4-1-2-1-2/4-3-1-2? Mariner has switched the formation mid-game on more than one occasion. No one's even quite sure what we were playing towards the end of Montreal game once De Guzman was subbed off and, with Johnson on the left, we might have been playing something closer to 4-2-3-1 by the end of the Philly game.

Mariner screwed up in the Philly game. Part of his selection was likely dictated by player availability - no one knows for sure how fit JDG and Soolsma are, Henry was coming back from an illness; he's shown little hesitation to use those three when available - and part of it was wanting to stick with a line-up that was gaining some familiarity with each other over a short stretch. He was too conservative in his selection and, with the forwards gassed from kickoff and unable to press, the two banks of four gave Philly too much space to advance into across midfield uncontested. That said, you could tell after 10 minutes that there was little chance of us getting anything out of that game regardless of what sort of formation we adopted: 30% possession against Philly(!) tells more of a story than formations or systems. We couldn't keep the ball EVEN WHEN WE TRIED and that's got very little to do with coaching. Mariner picked the players so he doesn't get a complete pass but sometimes there's no good option.

Again, it's one game. We'll see how they respond Wednesday. That's not an easy game but Vancouver has played a lot of games in a short period too and face a long flight from the west coast.


I think the coaching has been a let down, and needs to be improved.
Honestly, everyone's got the right to their own opinion but my opinion is that you can only say that the coaching has been a let down if you're rigidly ideological about what good football is.

The first 20 minutes of KC and the entire Philly game were terrible. That's inarguable. We were out of gas and dropping to deep in the last 20 against Houston and New England.

Outside of those stretches I've been seeing a reasonable tactical approach that has kept us competitive and been scoring goals: press from the front with two hard running forwards, stay compact in the middle, deny opponents space to counter into and play in front of our defense, and play more direct balls out of the back looking to win second balls in the opponents half. I was most happy with the NY game where we had a solid performance from start to finish and didn't make it easy for a talented offensive team to break us down at home. It's not super pretty, it's not going to win every time, and it's hardly original but with a team that has an inexperienced backline, two good forwards, and a midfield with better defenders than passers/creators it makes a fair bit of sense to me. It's not stone age stuff either. It's pragmatic and not as naive as thinking that all it takes to play successful attacking football is putting your team out their in an attacking formation regardless of whether or not they've got the attacking talent (and defensive base) to make that work. We'll see where the team goes once Paul Mariner gets to call the shots on player acquisitions.

[T-boy]

Klinnsman was actually correct in that regard. Plus, he brought in Frings, a huge asset to the team (at least until the current style of play came in).
The vision also tied in well with where TFC Academy is headed.

The problem is that the wrong coach was hired, plus Anselmi also put in place a structure where even if Winter was the right guy, he couldn't succeed, and there was no president of football with the knowledge and ability to correct things when they went south, only Anselmi going by the seat of the pants. I would love to see if Klinnsman had recommended a proper structure, or if he only recommended direction and some possible coaching candidates.

MLS is evolving from a route A league, and more technical, possession-oriented play is part of the equation, however it remains a lot more physical than say Spain. So the right type of play (and the right type of coach) recognizes the direction, but doesn't try to rigidly import a foreign style that doesn't take into account the physicality of the league.

I'm not totally convinced, at all, that Klinsmann's idea was that great. To me, its a good "idea", but to put that into practice in a league that has SO many restrictions as the MLS, it just isn't going to ever work. It's too in-organic. I love that he wanted to implement a long term future with the building of an academy and proper traning facilities. That's the good part of his ideas. But, to "create" a football culture where a football culture doesn't really exist, can't really work IMO. I'm LOVE if it did work - but in the MLS, I can't see if ever happening.

Kilnsmann's ideas and Winter's system is like trying to get MacDonalds burger flippers trying to cook foie gras and lobster. It just isn't going to happen - and IF it is - its going to take years of training - and I don't mean 2 or 3 or 5 years, I mean at LEAST 6 to 10 years to implement. In the meantime, Winter is trying to get players who have no idea what foie gras is, to try and cook it to perfection. It wasn't going to happen, and WON'T happen until a majority of the first team are players that have come through the academy (that's goiung to take YEARS).

I still think TFC can still continue to work with the youth/academy AND have success in the first team playing a more basic system. The people on here who are saying that "the academy will eventually drop the 4-3-3 and system training" are making vast assumptions about that. So far, the academy ARE still working on 4-3-3, so we can't argue that they aren't continueing to work on the future of the club.

Klinsmanns vision CAN still be implement in the loooong term (5 plus years) AND we can have short term success with Mariner/another manager playing a different, simpler system in the first team. I am convinced of both.

[jrober38]

In the time we've played 4-3-1-2, we've played well.

In the time we've played 4-4-2, we've looked terrible.

Why were we playing 4-4-2 on Sunday?

The manager should be able to look at our defense, and the fact that they average 22.75 years old an instantly realize that they need a defensive 3-man midfield alignment in front of them. Without three central midfielders harassing the ball and breaking up attacks, our defense gets destroyed because they're so inexperienced.

At this point, that's obvious, so if we trot out a 4-4-2 again this season, it shows that the manager isn't utilizing the best tactics to protect our young back line.

[Beach_Red]

I'm not totally convinced, at all, that Klinsmann's idea was that great. To me, its a good "idea", but to put that into practice in a league that has SO many restrictions as the MLS, it just isn't going to ever work. It's too in-organic. I love that he wanted to implement a long term future with the building of an academy and proper traning facilities. That's the good part of his ideas. But, to "create" a football culture where a football culture doesn't really exist, can't really work IMO. I'm LOVE if it did work - but in the MLS, I can't see if ever happening.

Klinsmanns vision CAN still be implement in the loooong term (5 plus years) AND we can have short term success with Mariner/another manager playing a different, simpler system in the first team. I am convinced of both.

Is Klinsmann really getting credit for an academy and a training facility? Weren't those things announced before Soccer Solutions were hired? Anyway, his "plan" seems to be pretty much what everybody else's plan is, so sure, in 5 years that's likely what MLS will look like.

The tough part would be the roadmap between now and then - if Klinsmann's company had come up with some details about that we'd likely still be on the way. But all we heard was, "We need better players."

So, in 5 years TFC players will likely come from the same places they do now, but the domestic players will probably be better and the style of play will reflect that and it'll be better.

[Canary10]

"I'm not totally convinced, at all, that Klinsmann's idea was that great. To me, its a good "idea", but to put that into practice in a league that has SO many restrictions as the MLS, it just isn't going to ever work. It's too in-organic. I love that he wanted to implement a long term future with the building of an academy and proper traning facilities. That's the good part of his ideas. But, to "create" a football culture where a football culture doesn't really exist, can't really work IMO. I'm LOVE if it did work - but in the MLS, I can't see if ever happening. "

That's where the United States is clearly going. All the national team set-ups from youth to first team are playing 4-3-3 now. Then again, Klinsmann is the one leading all that - maybe it's just an endless circular loop!

[T-boy]

"I'm not totally convinced, at all, that Klinsmann's idea was that great. To me, its a good "idea", but to put that into practice in a league that has SO many restrictions as the MLS, it just isn't going to ever work. It's too in-organic. I love that he wanted to implement a long term future with the building of an academy and proper traning facilities. That's the good part of his ideas. But, to "create" a football culture where a football culture doesn't really exist, can't really work IMO. I'm LOVE if it did work - but in the MLS, I can't see if ever happening. "

That's where the United States is clearly going. All the national team set-ups from youth to first team are playing 4-3-3 now. Then again, Klinsmann is the one leading all that - maybe it's just an endless circular loop!

It's definitely a "trend" for a lot of football leagues/countries right now, for sure. In the end of the day, will we all end up playing the same way? (in which case, won't each team/country just cancel each other out and the overall improvement will be minimal?!).

I'm sure if this is the case, then a country that goes back to direct football will end up winning the world cup, just because they are the ONLY country that can close down the opponent and play something different. Then....everybody will want to play direct football that will then be the "trend"!

And so it goes around in circles!

[T-boy]

Is Klinsmann really getting credit for an academy and a training facility? Weren't those things announced before Soccer Solutions were hired? Anyway, his "plan" seems to be pretty much what everybody else's plan is, so sure, in 5 years that's likely what MLS will look like.

The tough part would be the roadmap between now and then - if Klinsmann's company had come up with some details about that we'd likely still be on the way. But all we heard was, "We need better players."

So, in 5 years TFC players will likely come from the same places they do now, but the domestic players will probably be better and the style of play will reflect that and it'll be better.

What I meant that Klinsmann wanted the kids, up to first team, to be trained the same way, not that he build the actual facilities. I think the Downsview facility was already in the works prior to his involvement. I could have been more eloquent saying that originally!

[ag futbol]

The thing about creating culture is: it has to be a mixture of what you want, and what you've got. People are unlikely to accept something that's totally alien, but if you piggy-back something that's already existing and make some changes, you can gradually push the iceberg to where you want it.

With the huge Latin population and the rise of possession orientated teams in world soccer, I think if done properly, the US can start to make changes to the way players develop. That being said, it will probably be an extremely slow process.

[Oldtimer]

Kilnsmann's ideas and Winter's system is like trying to get MacDonalds burger flippers trying to cook foie gras and lobster. It just isn't going to happen - and IF it is - its going to take years of training - and I don't mean 2 or 3 or 5 years, I mean at LEAST 6 to 10 years to implement. In the meantime, Winter is trying to get players who have no idea what foie gras is, to try and cook it to perfection. It wasn't going to happen, and WON'T happen until a majority of the first team are players that have come through the academy (that's goiung to take YEARS).


You have to distinguish here between the idea of more technical play and the exceedingly complex Dutch system.
KC and RSL both have a more technical game. That works!!! However neither of them is as ridiculously complicated as what the Dutch do, and Winter was a Dutch football fundamentalist... you had to do it 100% the Ajax way.

Too take your restaurant analogy... you can train the burger cook to put fried shitake mushrooms on a bison burger and that works OK. However, if you expect them to cook at a Michelin 3-star level, forget it. KC and RSL have the bison burger. Winter was trying to retrain TFC's burger cook Ty Harden and co. to make a Michelin 3-star meal, and failing in the process.

[Canary10]

You have to distinguish here between the idea of more technical play and the exceedingly complex Dutch system.
KC and RSL both have a more technical game. That works!!! However neither of them is as ridiculously complicated as what the Dutch do, and Winter was a Dutch football fundamentalist... you had to do it 100% the Ajax way.

Too take your restaurant analogy... you can train the burger cook to put fried shitake mushrooms on a bison burger and that works OK. However, if you expect them to cook at a Michelin 3-star level, forget it. KC and RSL have the bison burger. Winter was trying to retrain TFC's burger cook Ty Harden and co. to make a Michelin 3-star meal, and failing in the process.

Get rid of the constant positional interchanging and I think this team can play 4-3-3 no problem.

[FreekAce]

Get rid of the constant positional interchanging and I think this team can play 4-3-3 no problem.

agreed. it was the off ball movement and anticipating the play ahead of time our players never got, which i understand as thats something that they start imprinting in the kids at for example Ajax well before they focus on anything else, and why it work so well by the time they develop into pro athletes.
play the same formation with the positions that are fixed like some of the other teams in the league and i believe this system could work for us as well. and look a hell of a lot better then punt and chase.

[Oldtimer]

Get rid of the constant positional interchanging and I think this team can play 4-3-3 no problem.


agreed. it was the off ball movement and anticipating the play ahead of time our players never got, which i understand as thats something that they start imprinting in the kids at for example Ajax well before they focus on anything else, and why it work so well by the time they develop into pro athletes.
play the same formation with the positions that are fixed like some of the other teams in the league and i believe this system could work for us as well. and look a hell of a lot better then punt and chase.


BINGO! Plus get rid of the "Player A can pass to Player B but not Player C" stuff. How about:

"play it on the deck and pass it up. Mix-it-up with the occasional long-ball to keep 'em honest, but don't just lob the ball forward out of desperation. Keep possession when you can, but don't be stupid about it, sometimes you just gotta kick it out of play."


This is not beyond the ability of your MLS/NCAA player.

[ManUtd4ever]

But that's the thing. The last three weeks aren't about the long term or vision of where Mariner sees the team going. They're about getting a really bad team back to competitive over the extreme short term during a really tough stretch of the schedule. Again: five away games out of our last seven matches with no full week in between any of them! Really, can you imagine any coach coming in during the international break, looking at the schedule he was about to face, evaluating the lack of experience on our back line, and deciding to do anything other than playing a really simple system that concentrates on forcing the other team to beat you rather than going out and trying to impose your style on them?

And no matter how you slice it: 7 points from 7 games, while not good, is a hell of a lot better than 3 points from 10 games.

I don't need to see fluid on the deck tiki taka by the end of the year but if Mariner can't get the team playing a composed and organized system by the end of the summer then it's time to start thinking about another replacement (again). But I'm not prepared to force an a priori critera that the system has to be possession based. You can play good football that doesn't emphasize possession; what Paul Mariner does is up to him. I'd be very happy if TFC could adopt a smart counterattacking style that concedes possession to opponents to invite them forward before channelling them into deadends, stripping the ball, and quickly launching counters into the space opened up as the other team moves forward. Those counters don't have to be long balls either. trane's pushing 4-3-1-2 for the team (and I agree that we've looked best under Mariner in that sort of formation) and, if we could ever get an elite AM like DeRo or Guevara to link play, quick counters on the deck could lead to some really exciting soccer. Avila's okay but he's a good MLS depth player and Silva's got a long way to go before he's anywhere near the level of a Morales, Ferreira, or Rosales. We wouldn't be Barcelona or Ajax or the Dutch national team Aron Winter played with but it's the sort of approach I can actually imagine us affecting successfully here with the players we have access to.


Well said.

Based on the makeup of the current roster, I also believe Mariner can lead this team to a respectable record if he sticks with the 4-3-1-2 that he has already experimented with a few times.

I think Mariner's primary flaw thus far has been his inability to implement sensible squad rotation, and the fatigue has set in.

[jrober38]

Well said.

Based on the makeup of the current roster, I also believe Mariner can lead this team to a respectable record if he sticks with the 4-3-1-2 that he has already experimented with a few times.

I think Mariner's primary flaw thus far has been his inability to implement sensible squad rotation, and the fatigue has set in.

I agree.

The key needs to be protecting the back four, and this can only be done by keeping a compact 3-man midfield of three ball winners who can break up attacks before they start. I'm not sure we'll win many games, but the defence should gain some valuable experience which should help us going forward. There also need to be much more rotation among the midfield spots. If Mariner continues to ride Frings and Dunnfield as much as he has, they're going to get injured and we're going to be stuck looking for replacements later on this season.

Commit to this formation now, and start trying other players who haven't been in the squad much to see how they fit. Then at the end of the season evaluate the whole thing and see where we can make some roster improvements.

One thing I'd like to see them try is Eckersley at one of the CM spots. He's got a high work rate, knows how to put a tackle in and can make basic passes. I think his work rate would alleviate some of the pressure on the other CMs, which would help keep all of their legs fresher.

[T-boy]

For once, we are all in agreement today!

And also, I'm REALLY craving a bison burger for lunch! :D

[trane]

Shakes,

I think that Winter, is getting so much defense, because of what he wanted to do, the idea he was trying to install. Which I also think was a good idea, but he had enough time to show that he could get it done, and clearly he was not getting it done.

What I do not agree with many of those that think Winter should not have been fired, that you needed more time, or that you had to chose between developing longterm and winning now.

[Canary10]

For those of you saying they're playing in a 4-3-1-2 at times, can you explain where people are lining up? I haven't really seen that formation personally, although I'll admit to being very drunk on one of our few home games since Mariner took over (where you can actually see where people are lining up, unlike TV).

[T-boy]

Shakes,

I think that Winter, is getting so much defense, because of what he wanted to do, the idea he was trying to install. Which I also think was a good idea, but he had enough time to show that he could get it done, and clearly he was not getting it done.

What I do not agree with many of those that think Winter should not have been fired, that you needed more time, or that you had to chose between developing longterm and winning now.

I assume that's why MLSE tried to move Winter into a youth/academy roll? They, and we, all liked Winter vision for the future, but we didn't really like that he was trying to implement it fully into the first team prematurely. If Winter had tried to dumb down his system for his MacDonalds burger flippers, we might have have better results the last season and a half. But he tried to get things done FAR too quickly for the average MLS player that we have in the first team.

Getting Iro to play any type of tikka-takka is pretty funny, really! He isn't even a burger flipper - he can barely hard boil and egg! Watching that guy try to closely control the ball and make a short pass to feet was painful to watch!

[T-boy]

For those of you saying they're playing in a 4-3-1-2 at times, can you explain where people are lining up? I haven't really seen that formation personally, although I'll admit to being very drunk on one of our few home games since Mariner took over (where you can actually see where people are lining up, unlike TV).

You could see the difference when they played Philly. They played a VERY flat midfield lining almost in a straight line in the midfield. Before that game, the middle two were taking it in turns to "push" into the AM spot behind DK and RJ. In the Philly game, they were trying to do the opposite, with RJ and DK "pulling" back into that spot, going from 4-4-2 to 4-4-1-1. It didn't work and it meant TFC have too many people behind the ball and nobody was holding the ball up front for any amount of time.

Mariner is trying to get the 4 midfielders to play extremely compact, meaning that the opponent can't play in midfield at all. I'd like a more traditional 4-4-2 with two WIDER midfielders in the longer run for the rest of the season. That would be much more attractive to watch.

[Oldtimer]

Bison burger with mushrooms (mmmmm):

http://www.chow.com/assets/2009/07/bison_mushroom_burger_2_600.jpg

[T-boy]

^^^^ oh god! I hate you! :p

SO hungry!!!!!!!!

[Canary10]

You could see the difference when they played Philly. They played a VERY flat midfield lining almost in a straight line in the midfield. Before that game, the middle two were taking it in turns to "push" into the AM spot behind DK and RJ. In the Philly game, they were trying to do the opposite, with RJ and DK "pulling" back into that spot, going from 4-4-2 to 4-4-1-1. It didn't work and it meant TFC have too many people behind the ball and nobody was holding the ball up front for any amount of time.

Mariner is trying to get the 4 midfielders to play extremely compact, meaning that the opponent can't play in midfield at all. I'd like a more traditional 4-4-2 with two WIDER midfielders in the longer run for the rest of the season. That would be much more attractive to watch.

I agree they played flat agains Philly, at least when defending. Then again, they were never attacking so that was pretty much the whole game.

If they line up in 4-3-1-2 who is playing the 1 in the centre? I never see Dunny playing further up the pitch than Lambe, and he's almost always more advanced than Frings, although they switch from time to time. If anything, Lambe is usually the more advanced of the whole mid.

[jrober38]

For those of you saying they're playing in a 4-3-1-2 at times, can you explain where people are lining up? I haven't really seen that formation personally, although I'll admit to being very drunk on one of our few home games since Mariner took over (where you can actually see where people are lining up, unlike TV).

For each the Houston and Montreal games, we lined up:

Hall - Eckersley - Emory - Morgan
- Dunnfield - Frings - De Guzman
------------ Avila
--------- DK ----- RJ

More recently we've played a flat 4-man midfield with Avila one the left and Lambe on the right. That formation has not worked nearly as well on offense or defense.

[T-boy]

For each the Houston and Montreal games, we lined up:

Hall - Eckersley - Emory - Morgan
- Dunnfield - Frings - De Guzman
------------ Avila
--------- DK ----- RJ

Correct. And then when Lambe was playing in place of JDG, both Lambe and Avila were taking it in turns to rotate the AM position. Then when Lambe or Avila were pushing, Dunfield was going wider of the 3 mids behind the AM. The Philly system was VERY basic. TOO basic, and that's why it really didn't work.

[ag futbol]

I thought we lined up flat in the first half and there were just huge gaps between the backline and the mids. Second half we inserted De Guzman and it started to look a lot more like 4-2-2-2 which did a better job breaking up the play despite continuing to be rather sluggish.

[Canary10]

For each the Houston and Montreal games, we lined up:

Hall - Eckersley - Emory - Morgan
- Dunnfield - Frings - De Guzman
------------ Avila
--------- DK ----- RJ

More recently we've played a flat 4-man midfield with Avila one the left and Lambe on the right. That formation has not worked nearly as well on offense or defense.

yeah, I can see that in the opta stats in those two games. Thanks.

[jrober38]

Correct. And then when Lambe was playing in place of JDG, both Lambe and Avila were taking it in turns to rotate the AM position. Then when Lambe or Avila were pushing, Dunfield was going wider of the 3 mids behind the AM. The Philly system was VERY basic. TOO basic, and that's why it really didn't work.

To work effectively, the three man midfield has to stay compact and limit the oppositions time on the ball in the midfield. Once we got behind, we had to press more offensively which widened the gaps in the midfield, and Philly proceeded to dismantle our inexperienced defense because they weren't provided with the same protection from the midfield that they have been in the past.

Another problem with a compact midfield is if you go up against an effective wing player. Recently, the two times we've been in real trouble defensively over the last couple weeks were against Houston (in the second half) with Brad Davis and by Philly with Freddy Adu. Because the midfield is so tight, the opposition can often get 2 on 1 against the Full Back if they have an attacking Full Back of their own.

They constantly got the ball to those guys on the wing, and both of them were able to trouble us from the wing because the midfield was slow to get over and help defend.

Ideally for a 3-man midfield to work you need three extremely athletic CMs who can cover a lot of ground. Given the age of our trio, defending the wings has troubled us.

[Derko]

Excellent analysis going on here,

How come we, as a whole can get it but the one's running the show find it difficult,LOL

The Bison Burger will work for me tonight!!

[BHTC Mike]

For each the Houston and Montreal games, we lined up:

Hall - Eckersley - Emory - Morgan
- Dunnfield - Frings - De Guzman
------------ Avila
--------- DK ----- RJ
And it started as far back as the second half of the game in KC once De Guzman was subbed in.


More recently we've played a flat 4-man midfield with Avila one the left and Lambe on the right. That formation has not worked nearly as well on offense or defense.
I didn't see enough of the Dallas game to comment but how did we line-up in that game? From the final 10 minutes I saw it looked like whatever we were doing was working and we finished stronger (and more composed) in an away game than I'm used to.

[Canary10]

And it started as far back as the second half of the game in KC once De Guzman was subbed in.


I didn't see enough of the Dallas game to comment but how did we line-up in that game? From the final 10 minutes I saw it looked like whatever we were doing was working and we finished stronger (and more composed) in an away game than I'm used to.

Not sure about that game, but against New York Dunfield was definitely playing the more advanced central role with Frings behind and Avila to the left. Odd place to put Dunfield in my opinion, and Avila has looked lost in the left. Rarely gets a touch there.

[jrober38]

Not sure about that game, but against New York Dunfield was definitely playing the more advanced central role with Frings behind and Avila to the left. Odd place to put Dunfield in my opinion, and Avila has looked lost in the left. Rarely gets a touch there.

Avila shows pretty clearly that he's not a true left sided player. He's uncomfortable running the sideline, and often drifts too far inside which is where he'd rather be playing.

Personally I'd like to see us go back to a 4-3-3, or experiment with a 4-5-1. Although the 4-3-1-2 has worked pretty well, it has some pretty glaring disadvantages, most notably that it struggles to defend effective wing play, which is why it's not a formation many teams use these days.

By going back to a formation where there are natural wide players who can track back and help defend against overlapping runs from the opposition's Full Backs, I think our defense will play a lot better than it has under the 4-3-1-2.

I'd like to see us try:

Hall - Eckersley - Emory - Morgan
------ Frings ---- Dunnfield
Lambe ---- Avila ---- Johnson
------------ DK

I think it would allow us to defend better, possess the ball more, and create more chances on the counter attack.