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denime
07-06-2012, 05:39 AM
Mornin'




TFC TV (http://www.torontofc.ca/video)



Toronto FC extend Morgan (http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/07/05/toronto_fc_ashtone_morgan_new_contract/)


Positive signs from TFC (http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/07/05/toronto_fc_good_signs_dallas/)





TFC Related Blogs !!



(http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?29582-TFC-MLS-blogs-thread)


SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshine-girl)

TOBOR !
07-06-2012, 07:18 AM
SSG : that reminds me - need to check my tire pressure...

v00d00daddy
07-06-2012, 07:24 AM
That sportsnet article reads like a mash up of posts from this board. LOL

Typical Toronto sports mentality.

Danny Koevermans scores in 5 games straight and his goal is the reason we got a tie out of Dallas and we're all championing the plumber that is Terry Dunfield.

I'm all for giving Dunfield credit when it's due (which it kinda was against Dallas, albeit totally overblown) but lets not forget the countless shit performances he's put in for TFC. Please and thank you.

Koevermans is the real story at TFC in the last couple weeks. Not Mariner...not Winter....not 4-4-2 and certainly not Terry Dunfield.

Once Danny cools down (and he will, it's only natural) we'll be back to wondering what the hell is wrong with this team. LOL

MLS Player of the month: danny koevermans

denime
07-06-2012, 07:33 AM
That sportsnet article reads like a mash up of posts from this board. LOL



maybe because it's written by one of our own member/user and TFC Supporter.

jabbronies
07-06-2012, 07:38 AM
That sportsnet article reads like a mash up of posts from this board. LOL

Typical Toronto sports mentality.

Danny Koevermans scores in 5 games straight and his goal is the reason we got a tie out of Dallas and we're all championing the plumber that is Terry Dunfield.

I'm all for giving Dunfield credit when it's due (which it kinda was against Dallas, albeit totally overblown) but lets not forget the countless shit performances he's put in for TFC. Please and thank you.

Koevermans is the real story at TFC in the last couple weeks. Not Mariner...not Winter....not 4-4-2 and certainly not Terry Dunfield.

Once Danny cools down (and he will, it's only natural) we'll be back to wondering what the hell is wrong with this team. LOL

MLS Player of the month: danny koevermans

I haven't been reading the pre/post game threads. Please tell me this is not true.

Pookie
07-06-2012, 07:38 AM
The Sportsnet piece leaves me asking logical questions. For example:

"One player who has hit fine form under the tutelage of Paul Mariner is Ashtone Morgan. The young left back has found his confidence and is careening forward with the pace and effectiveness of, well, last season."

So, he is doing well under Mariner. So well in fact, he is doing it at the same pace as he did under Winter. ??? Makes sense. Well done, Winter... uh, Mariner.


On the plus side, Tom Anselmi's plan looks to be working. The user comment:

Looking good. The team is showing character. If Mariner is responsible, then good for him. It's beginning to look as though management has finally chosen the right man for the job.

... highlights that when the main press doesn't keep asking questions about:

- the latest Plata debacle and challenging Cochrane as to his assertion that the recently signed player was being shopping for loan for "several months",
- the internal disagreement around Nesta,
- why they abandoned 4-3-3 instead of finding a different coach to implement it,
- why they didn't do a coaching search and just gave it to Mariner,
- why AW got fired but EC, BDK, PM and TR all kept their jobs,
- their future plans around ticket prices relative to the league,
- if there is a plan B after Danny K and Frings,
- the record when those guys aren't in the line up under either coach,
- and what Tom Anselmi brings to the team now and in the future

... if they don't keep (or start) asking those questions, Tom Anselmi can rely on some Toronto fans and media to form a circle jerk around the latest tie involving the last place team in the west as a sign of hope, and ensure he stays as leader of this "Championship Organization" for many years to come.

Maybe this Anselmi guy really does know the market.

TOBOR !
07-06-2012, 07:50 AM
The Sportsnet piece leaves me asking logical questions. For example:

"One player who has hit fine form under the tutelage of Paul Mariner is Ashtone Morgan. The young left back has found his confidence and is careening forward with the pace and effectiveness of, well, last season."

So, he is doing well under Mariner. So well in fact, he is doing it at the same pace as he did under Winter. ??? Makes sense. Well done, Winter... uh, Mariner.


On the plus side, Tom Anselmi's plan looks to be working. The user comment:

Looking good. The team is showing character. If Mariner is responsible, then good for him. It's beginning to look as though management has finally chosen the right man for the job.

... highlights that when the main press doesn't keep asking questions about:

- the latest Plata debacle and challenging Cochrane as to his assertion that the recently signed player was being shopping for loan for "several months",
- the internal disagreement around Nesta,
- why they abandoned 4-3-3 instead of finding a different coach to implement it,
- why they didn't do a coaching search and just gave it to Mariner,
- why AW got fired but EC, BDK, PM and TR all kept their jobs,
- their future plans around ticket prices relative to the league,
- if there is a plan B after Danny K and Frings,
- the record when those guys aren't in the line up under either coach,
- and what Tom Anselmi brings to the team now and in the future

... if they don't keep (or start) asking those questions, Tom Anselmi can rely on some Toronto fans and media to form a circle jerk around the latest tie involving the last place team in the west as a sign of hope, and ensure he stays as leader of this "Championship Organization" for many years to come.

Maybe this Anselmi guy really does know the market.

Oh. My. God. Yes.

scooter
07-06-2012, 08:24 AM
mornin d

Beach_Red
07-06-2012, 08:25 AM
The Sportsnet piece leaves me asking logical questions. For example:

"One player who has hit fine form under the tutelage of Paul Mariner is Ashtone Morgan. The young left back has found his confidence and is careening forward with the pace and effectiveness of, well, last season."

So, he is doing well under Mariner. So well in fact, he is doing it at the same pace as he did under Winter. ??? Makes sense. Well done, Winter... uh, Mariner.


On the plus side, Tom Anselmi's plan looks to be working. The user comment:

Looking good. The team is showing character. If Mariner is responsible, then good for him. It's beginning to look as though management has finally chosen the right man for the job.

... highlights that when the main press doesn't keep asking questions about:

- the latest Plata debacle and challenging Cochrane as to his assertion that the recently signed player was being shopping for loan for "several months",
- the internal disagreement around Nesta,
- why they abandoned 4-3-3 instead of finding a different coach to implement it,
- why they didn't do a coaching search and just gave it to Mariner,
- why AW got fired but EC, BDK, PM and TR all kept their jobs,
- their future plans around ticket prices relative to the league,
- if there is a plan B after Danny K and Frings,
- the record when those guys aren't in the line up under either coach,
- and what Tom Anselmi brings to the team now and in the future

... if they don't keep (or start) asking those questions, Tom Anselmi can rely on some Toronto fans and media to form a circle jerk around the latest tie involving the last place team in the west as a sign of hope, and ensure he stays as leader of this "Championship Organization" for many years to come.

Maybe this Anselmi guy really does know the market.

The personel changes are all money issues, most likely. Sure, somebody should ask so Tom has to say, "We haven't been given the budget to pay severence to these guys AND hire new people," and maybe somebody should ask what style of play the team is aiming to have in a few years so Tom can say, "No one really knows what this league will look like in a few years - how many DPs teams will be allowed, what the salary cap will be, and so on," but really, what's the point? The organization is dysfunctional and everyone knows it.

ManUtd4ever
07-06-2012, 09:07 AM
The Sportsnet piece leaves me asking logical questions. For example:

"One player who has hit fine form under the tutelage of Paul Mariner is Ashtone Morgan. The young left back has found his confidence and is careening forward with the pace and effectiveness of, well, last season."

So, he is doing well under Mariner. So well in fact, he is doing it at the same pace as he did under Winter. ??? Makes sense. Well done, Winter... uh, Mariner.


On the plus side, Tom Anselmi's plan looks to be working. The user comment:

Looking good. The team is showing character. If Mariner is responsible, then good for him. It's beginning to look as though management has finally chosen the right man for the job.

... highlights that when the main press doesn't keep asking questions about:

- the latest Plata debacle and challenging Cochrane as to his assertion that the recently signed player was being shopping for loan for "several months",
- the internal disagreement around Nesta,
- why they abandoned 4-3-3 instead of finding a different coach to implement it,
- why they didn't do a coaching search and just gave it to Mariner,
- why AW got fired but EC, BDK, PM and TR all kept their jobs,
- their future plans around ticket prices relative to the league,
- if there is a plan B after Danny K and Frings,
- the record when those guys aren't in the line up under either coach,
- and what Tom Anselmi brings to the team now and in the future

... if they don't keep (or start) asking those questions, Tom Anselmi can rely on some Toronto fans and media to form a circle jerk around the latest tie involving the last place team in the west as a sign of hope, and ensure he stays as leader of this "Championship Organization" for many years to come.

Maybe this Anselmi guy really does know the market.

-The question regarding Cochrane's response to the Plata controversy is valid. Cochrane should have been fired along with MoJo and Preki.

-We don't know if there was internal disagreement regarding Nesta, it's all speculation at this point. Even if there was, it's not uncommon to have differing opinions on player recruitment, even within the most astute professional sports management teams.

-This issue has been discussed ad nauseum. With the pending sale of MLSE and a moratorium on long term hiring decisions in place for obvious reasons, the most qualified replacement was promoted internally to try and salvage the season. Subsequently, Paul Mariner has adapted a modified approach that he felt was more condusive to success in MLS in the short term. So far, the team has responded well to his tactical adjustments and boisterous nature.

-I can understand the concern regarding Cochrane, but to dismantle the entire front office ten games into the season is nothing short of idiotic. A semblence of stability was required for the duration of the season, not to mention that once again, permanent replacements could obviously have not been hired at this point with the pending transfer of ownership. Bell/Rogers/Tanenbaum will obviously want to make their own determination regarding the long term direction of the club if Mariner falters.

-Once again, a question that should be directed at the new ownership consortium once the sale of MLSE is official, although I agree that the ticket pricing issue is a key factor moving forward.

-The same question could be asked of any MLS club that has aging stars in their lineup. Most DPs in the league are in the twilight of their career, and logic would dictate that plan B would be to sign suitable replacements as DPs when the time comes.

-Irrelevant. Any team in the league would obviously endure hardship without their two best players in the lineup.

-Tom Anselmi has essentially acknowledged to the public that he is not qualified for his current position when he initially reached out to the league and hired Mo Johnston, and once again, when he hired a high profile consultant to determine the identity and trajectory of the franchise moving forward. It's no secret that he is a MLSE puppet that was assigned as the CEO of TFC. The issue will hopefully be resolved once the new ownership group is in place.

ag futbol
07-06-2012, 09:59 AM
I see someone is already trying to paint a picture of a "stabilized situation" where they don't need to hire a new manager. Convenient, considering a new hire would draw more negative attention on their performance.

Just like the Mo Johnston extension that happened two months before the NY disaster, praise is unearned at this point. Results have been an improvement over Winter and acceptable given the circumstances, but in no way should anyone be making promises or handing out merit points so early in the game.

Ajax TFC
07-06-2012, 10:04 AM
... highlights that when the main press doesn't keep asking questions about:

- the latest Plata debacle and challenging Cochrane as to his assertion that the recently signed player was being shopping for loan for "several months",
- the internal disagreement around Nesta,
- why they abandoned 4-3-3 instead of finding a different coach to implement it,
- why they didn't do a coaching search and just gave it to Mariner,
- why AW got fired but EC, BDK, PM and TR all kept their jobs,
- their future plans around ticket prices relative to the league,
- if there is a plan B after Danny K and Frings,
- the record when those guys aren't in the line up under either coach,
- and what Tom Anselmi brings to the team now and in the future

... if they don't keep (or start) asking those questions, Tom Anselmi can rely on some Toronto fans and media to form a circle jerk around the latest tie involving the last place team in the west as a sign of hope, and ensure he stays as leader of this "Championship Organization" for many years to come.

Maybe this Anselmi guy really does know the market.
They aren't asking those questions because they really don't know or care enough about the problems with this club. And they aren't going to ask why they didn't get a different 4-3-3 guy because most of the sports guys in Toronto are conservatives who hated the 4-3-3 and love that TFC went back to traditional 4-4-2 hoofball. I don't expect any questions like that to be asked by the current group of soccer journalists in this city

Pookie
07-06-2012, 10:04 AM
We don't know if there was internal disagreement regarding Nesta, it's all speculation at this point. Even if there was, it's not uncommon to have differing opinions on player recruitment, even within the most astute professional sports management teams.


I wasn't really pro or con Nesta but what bothers me is that we have no real idea who is actually making the final decision.

Mariner was supposedly hired for player aquistion, yet according to some journalists that was all done by Winter. By default then, if Winter as Head Coach and Director of the Office of Football Wonderfulness and Excellence (or whaterever we call it) is now replaced by Mariner as Director of Awesomeness and Excellence and Everything Related to Football, does that mean he has the final call?

If so, why is Cochrane, our apparent Director of Paperwork, Denial and Canadian Football Supremcy, speaking about contractual issues regarding Plata?

Who incidently is still with the team but set to be unvieled by LDUQ sometime today.

Differing opinions is fine. Unclear decision making structure and authority polarize ANY organization... business or sport.

denime
07-06-2012, 10:09 AM
-The question regarding Cochrane's response to the Plata controversy is valid. Cochrane should have been fired along with MoJo and Preki.

-We don't know if there was internal disagreement regarding Nesta, it's all speculation at this point. Even if there was, it's not uncommon to have differing opinions on player recruitment, even within the most astute professional sports management teams.

-This issue has been discussed ad nauseum. With the pending sale of MLSE and a moratorium on long term hiring decisions in place for obvious reasons, the most qualified replacement was promoted internally to try and salvage the season. Subsequently, Paul Mariner has adapted a modified approach that he felt was more condusive to success in MLS in the short term. So far, the team has responded well to his tactical adjustments and boisterous nature.

-I can understand the concern regarding Cochrane, but to dismantle the entire front office ten games into the season is nothing short of idiotic. A semblence of stability was required for the duration of the season, not to mention that once again, permanent replacements could obviously have not been hired at this point with the pending transfer of ownership. Bell/Rogers/Tanenbaum will obviously want to make their own determination regarding the long term direction of the club if Mariner falters.

-Once again, a question that should be directed at the new ownership consortium once the sale of MLSE is official, although I agree that the ticket pricing issue is a key factor moving forward.

-The same question could be asked of any MLS club that has aging stars in their lineup. Most DPs in the league are in the twilight of their career, and logic would dictate that plan B would be to sign suitable replacements as DPs when the time comes.

-Irrelevant. Any team in the league would obviously endure hardship without their two best players in the lineup.

-Tom Anselmi has essentially acknowledged to the public that he is not qualified for his current position when he initially reached out to the league and hired Mo Johnston, and once again, when he hired a high profile consultant to determine the identity and trajectory of the franchise moving forward. It's no secret that he is a MLSE puppet that was assigned as the CEO of TFC. The issue will hopefully be resolved once the new ownership group is in place.

I think we do know and it was already published on Monday.
http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?3414


Additional sources close to Toronto FC’s front office confirmed to CSN that the club is chasing Alessandro Nesta. However, there was a suggestion that an internal conflict at the club was holding things up.

It’s said that Bob de Klerk is driving interest in Nesta, but that one of either Earl Cochrane or Paul Mariner is resisting the move. The nature of their resistance was not indicated.


And the most qualified replacement was NOT promoted internally,T.Rongen and BDK are more qualified and have much better knowledge to carry on with the philosophy that club decided to go 18 months ago,and half way into it they decided to go back were they started 18 months ago.What TFC FO did is same as to try to swim across the river and half way trough turn back and swim to the shore were you started,because you panicked and thought it's to far away,and you wont make to the other side.

Mariner's contact was extended month before Winter was fired,and now to say TFC FO did not have a time to look for long term solution is very naive.

There is no excuse for ANSLEMI,so please don't even try to justify anything ANSELMI did in the past 6 years with TFC,he was incompetent in 2006/07 and he is still incompetent in 2012/12,nothing will change as long he is sitting in FO.

ANSLEMI GTFO!!

BHTC Mike
07-06-2012, 10:20 AM
I hope we start losing every game again so that I can read about how great TFC is and that they're heading in the right direction while playing progressive football. All this "unbeaten streak" and "scoring goals" stuff is too confusing.

T-boy
07-06-2012, 10:20 AM
They aren't asking those questions because they really don't know or care enough about the problems with this club. And they aren't going to ask why they didn't get a different 4-3-3 guy because most of the sports guys in Toronto are conservatives who hated the 4-3-3 and love that TFC went back to traditional 4-4-2 hoofball. I don't expect any questions like that to be asked by the current group of soccer journalists in this city

Does anybody know how the reserves and academy are playing right now? Have they changed to 4-4-2 also, or are they still playing/learning the 4-3-3 system? Has the whole organisation from top to bottom changed to Mariner's style?

T-boy
07-06-2012, 10:25 AM
I'm still confused as to the anger on this board right now? TFC have the best results they've had in a while, and people are not happy? Meanwhile they still want to go back to Winter, and the "long term plan", even though the club and results were getting worse and worse since Winter took over. Nobody likes Mariner running up and down the touchline, while its getting results. They would rather have Winter back, sitting mute on the touchline and setting league record low results.

I'm not sure what kool aid is being drunk, but I think I missed out on my shot of it! :p

TOBOR !
07-06-2012, 10:25 AM
-We don't know if there was internal disagreement regarding Nesta, it's all speculation at this point. Even if there was, it's not uncommon to have differing opinions on player recruitment, even within the most astute professional sports management teams.


Fine - so keep it internal. This sort of information should not make it outside for general consumption. The fact that it did makes the situation seem even worse.


-Irrelevant. Any team in the league would obviously endure hardship without their two best players in the lineup.


I think it is relevant. Coach Winter was fired over the club's record during a time when his top two players spent much of it injured. Had they not been injured perhaps results would have been improved and Winter is still here.

TOBOR !
07-06-2012, 10:30 AM
I'm still confused as to the anger on this board right now? TFC have the best results they've had in a while, and people are not happy? Meanwhile they still want to go back to Winter, and the "long term plan", even though the club and results were getting worse and worse since Winter took over. Nobody likes Mariner running up and down the touchline, while its getting results. They would rather have Winter back, sitting mute on the touchline and setting league record low results.

I'm not sure what kool aid is being drunk, but I think I missed out on my shot of it! :p

Folk are distressed because once again MLSE has packed in a long-range plan too early. Effectively killing off the prospect of an exciting future and dooming the club to mid-table mediocrity.

Denime said it best :


What TFC FO did is same as to try to swim across the river and half way trough turn back and swim to the shore were you started,because you panicked and thought it's to far away,and you wont make to the other side.

denime
07-06-2012, 10:33 AM
I'm still confused as to the anger on this board right now? TFC have the best results they've had in a while, and people are not happy? Meanwhile they still want to go back to Winter, and the "long term plan", even though the club and results were getting worse and worse since Winter took over. Nobody likes Mariner running up and down the touchline, while its getting results. They would rather have Winter back, sitting mute on the touchline and setting league record low results.

I'm not sure what kool aid is being drunk, but I think I missed out on my shot of it! :p

argue the opinion,not the users

kool aid comment is not cool at all.

Thanks

Suds
07-06-2012, 10:41 AM
SSG : that reminds me - need to check my tire pressure...

fake tan, fake hair, fake boobs, and probably a fake personality ... sounds like my ideal woman! g:D

denime
07-06-2012, 10:41 AM
Does anybody know how the reserves and academy are playing right now? Have they changed to 4-4-2 also, or are they still playing/learning the 4-3-3 system? Has the whole organisation from top to bottom changed to Mariner's style?

No they did not,all academy teams are still on 4-3-3 because that is the best system to develop skill player,442 will develop a ballhoofers and at least there FO did not screw up,T.Rongen will leave before TFC academy goes to 442.

What now bring as back to how much they crew up if you looking long term,developing kids in 433 only to play 442 is waste of time and money,but we all know TFC FO is only looking until October when they will ask us to renew ST.

T-boy
07-06-2012, 10:56 AM
No they did not,all academy teams are still on 4-3-3 because that is the best system to develop skill player,442 will develop a ballhoofers and at least there FO did not screw up,T.Rongen will leave before TFC academy goes to 442.

What now bring as back to how much they crew up if you looking long term,developing kids in 433 only to play 442 is waste of time and money,but we all know TFC FO is only looking until October when they will ask us to renew ST.

Ok. I'll keep asking the question that other's answer bring up.

Do you KNOW that 4-4-2 means "hoofball"? Is it possible to play in a 4-4-2 formation and play short passing technical football? I'm guessing you are assuming that 4-4-2 ALWAYS means hoofball? Correct?

T-boy
07-06-2012, 10:58 AM
argue the opinion,not the users

kool aid comment is not cool at all.

Thanks

The :p (sarcastic) smiley was meant as just that...sarcastic and funny, rather than serious and argumentative. Apologies if it was taken any other way. A lot of users don't use the :p smiley when being sarcastic, I thought it was meant to be used when saying things that are to be taken sarcstically or with a pinch of salt on a forum?

v00d00daddy
07-06-2012, 11:05 AM
Ok. I'll keep asking the question that other's answer bring up.

Do you KNOW that 4-4-2 means "hoofball"? Is it possible to play in a 4-4-2 formation and play short passing technical football? I'm guessing you are assuming that 4-4-2 ALWAYS means hoofball? Correct?

The formation doesn't matter. Call it whatever formation you like.

Te fact is that our senior team is now playing a style that:

-is ugly to watch (opinion of course)
-died back when the manager was actually playing the game lol
-teaches players nothing
-is easily figured out
-will get raped repeatedly by decent teams
-is hard to win with on a game by game basis because you can't dictate the play...even when playing against inferior teams.
-is the exact opposite of what the club decided is the way to go in terms of getting results, producing good footballers and playing attractive football for the fans


But its okay because we got a few ties on the back of the hottest goal scorer in the league in the last 3 weeks.

This club has, in 3 short weeks, re-lived everything that has kept football down in this country. Mariners style of play and supporters endorsement of it is a perfect snapshot at why the sport is fucked in this country.

T-boy
07-06-2012, 11:12 AM
Agreed that it is (in quotation marks) "ugly football" if you look at it at a perfectionist type of way. Mariner is playing an "older" style of football right now. But we ALL agree, the majority of the first team are UNABLE to play a more technical style of play, so therefore its fairly pointless trying to get them to play it. It's like trying to get MacDonalds chefs to cook gourmet food - it just doesn't work!

However, my argument is that you can still get the academy and reserves to continue to learn the 4-3-3 "style" of play while the first team get short term results with longer ball football. There is no reason why the two can't co-exist at the same time. The fact that the academy is STILL learning the total football style means that the LONG TERM goal is to get them into the first team playing that way - NOT to continue playing 4-4-2 in the first team.

I don't understand why some people think that the LONG TERM has been abandoned, when the proof that the academy is still learning 4-3-3 proves that it hasn't been abandoned at all?

Brooker
07-06-2012, 11:24 AM
Well isn't this thread a ray of sunshine.

Greatest Ripoff
07-06-2012, 11:25 AM
I hope we start losing every game again so that I can read about how great TFC is and that they're heading in the right direction while playing progressive football. All this "unbeaten streak" and "scoring goals" stuff is too confusing.

1 win since Mariner took over and averaging 1.1 points per game, even under the last shit coach the team was averaging 1.2 points a game. Neither were or are the answer. And both have been part of the problem for the past two seasons. The only thing that has changed for the good is Koevermans is back on the form he was at the end of last season.

With the resources available to this team they should better. The team basically plays like Stoke City but with the payroll of Manchester United.

spark
07-06-2012, 11:37 AM
I hope we start losing every game again so that I can read about how great TFC is and that they're heading in the right direction while playing progressive football. All this "unbeaten streak" and "scoring goals" stuff is too confusing.

Hahaha good one

T-boy
07-06-2012, 11:40 AM
Well isn't this thread a ray of sunshine.

Yeah, its lost me a little to be honest! I think I might have to give this forum a break for a little bit! I'm all excited that we are 5 games unbeaten, yet a lot of people seem really unhappy! I think if I don't talk to other TFC fans for a while it might be good for me! I'm happy and enthusiastic, but other fans appear to be zapping my enthusiasm! It's kinda sad! :(

Ajax TFC
07-06-2012, 11:43 AM
Koevermans is pretty much our new DeRo. Not in the egotistical way, but in the sense that we have one of the best strikers in the league, but that striker is our only attacking threat. You will never do well if you're relying on one player's form to get you goals. A little off topic, but that comparison just hit me while I was reading the thread.

Please don't kill me for mentioning DeRo:hide:

Pookie
07-06-2012, 11:43 AM
I don't understand why some people think that the LONG TERM has been abandoned, when the proof that the academy is still learning 4-3-3 proves that it hasn't been abandoned at all?

So, are you saying Mariner isn't going to be around for the LONG TERM?

We know he doesn't believe in it. Given the first chance he had he abandoned it and now according to some is completely responsible for, again according to some, the remarkable turnaround. As a potential Coach of the Year Candidate, he'd be a bit of a fool to abandon a sure fire way to MLSE's favorite phrase... "competing for a playoff spot"

Can Mariner actually coach, nurture and support a 4-3-3 Dutch-like tactical system (Considering TR is teaching it and BDK is supposedly scouting players to play it)?

If not, there is a disconnect and always will be until one or the other moves on.

denime
07-06-2012, 11:45 AM
Ok. I'll keep asking the question that other's answer bring up.

Do you KNOW that 4-4-2 means "hoofball"? Is it possible to play in a 4-4-2 formation and play short passing technical football? I'm guessing you are assuming that 4-4-2 ALWAYS means hoofball? Correct?

Well according to T.Rongen who runs TFCA,when developing a player,442 needs 1 maybe 2 skilled/creative player,442 is very rigid ,while in 433 you can have up to 5 creative players and the whole team is moving/touching ball more and the end result is 433 develops better skilled player,you don't need to dig deep to see difference between Spain and England or Ireland,two different game philosophies with end results like day and night.

T-boy
07-06-2012, 11:53 AM
Well according to T.Rongen who runs TFCA,when developing a player,442 needs 1 maybe 2 skilled/creative player,442 is very rigid ,while in 433 you can have up to 5 creative players and the whole team is moving/touching ball more and the end result is 433 develops better skilled player,you don't need to dig deep to see difference between Spain and England or Ireland,two different game philosophies with end results like day and night.

I think people are confusing "formation" with "style" or "tactics". 4-4-2 doesn't HAVE to be rigid. And equally 4-3-3 doesn't have to be technical. I've seen some extremely rigid, hard pressing, long ball teams play 4-3-3 before! You can easily modify the 4-3-3 "total football" system into 4-4-2, or 4-5-1, or 3-4-3 (as shown by Winter, just shown badly!). The technicial ability and mentality you learn playing De Klerks version of 4-3-3 can be played in ANY formation.

T-boy
07-06-2012, 11:54 AM
So, are you saying Mariner isn't going to be around for the LONG TERM?

We know he doesn't believe in it. Given the first chance he had he abandoned it and now according to some is completely responsible for, again according to some, the remarkable turnaround. As a potential Coach of the Year Candidate, he'd be a bit of a fool to abandon a sure fire way to MLSE's favorite phrase... "competing for a playoff spot"

Can Mariner actually coach, nurture and support a 4-3-3 Dutch-like tactical system (Considering TR is teaching it and BDK is supposedly scouting players to play it)?

If not, there is a disconnect and always will be until one or the other moves on.

Can you tell me/show me where/when Mariner has said that he "doesn't believe in" the 4-3-3 system? I honestly don't remember him ever saying that.

denime
07-06-2012, 12:04 PM
I think people are confusing "formation" with "style" or "tactics". 4-4-2 doesn't HAVE to be rigid. And equally 4-3-3 doesn't have to be technical. I've seen some extremely rigid, hard pressing, long ball teams play 4-3-3 before! You can easily modify the 4-3-3 "total football" system into 4-4-2, or 4-5-1, or 3-4-3 (as shown by Winter, just shown badly!). The technicial ability and mentality you learn playing De Klerks version of 4-3-3 can be played in ANY formation.

Only if you teach them to play 433,and that's is the whole point,you teach the kids 442 you are stuck with that forever.You develop the kids in 433 and they will adapt to any formation.

the whole point is that clubs that do not change their philosophies with every new head coach are successful once,regardless what that philosophy is,Bayern plays 442 and all of their academies are practicing 442 and they will not change that just because coach likes 433 ,actually they wont even hire coach if he wants to play 433.

And what TFC FO did,total opposite,hire a guy who is 442 old style coach,doesn't know 433 even if he wants to implement,and keeps kids in 433,it is not Mariner's fault,it is his uncle Tom screw up,Mariner's fault is that he lied to parents and kids from TFCA that TFC will hire 433 coach once Winter is gone so that kids can keep developing same as 1st team playing and now some parents took their talented kids out of TFCA.

The idea of staying on course is that kids brought from academy to the 1st team don't have to learn position again,it is much easier for them to play their own position with in system they were developed.

denime
07-06-2012, 12:07 PM
Can you tell me/show me where/when Mariner has said that he "doesn't believe in" the 4-3-3 system? I honestly don't remember him ever saying that.

I can find you his comment from this week about young back four learning new 442 system,it means he does not believe in 433 .

Pookie
07-06-2012, 12:08 PM
Can you tell me/show me where/when Mariner has said that he "doesn't believe in" the 4-3-3 system? I honestly don't remember him ever saying that.

^ what denime said. Plus actions my friend, actions. He has abandoned it instead of continuing to teach it. There was also plenty of debate between Winter led "Visionaries" and "MLS Pragmatists" led by Mariner/Cochrane which pointed to a conflict in vision.

Further to that, let's assume he believes in it. What experience does Mariner in implementing it? He never really played it. NE Revs never used it. Back on the old sod, he never used it.

If we ever supposedly flip the switch on 4-3-3, why is he the best man for the job? His impressive 1.1 points per game aside of course ;)

T-boy
07-06-2012, 12:33 PM
I can find you his comment from this week about young back four learning new 442 system,it means he does not believe in 433 .

I don't personally believe there is a link between the two, honestly!

Do ANY of us here think that the current defenders we have at the club can play Winter's 4-3-3 successfully? They didn't show it at all when he was coach!

So, Mariner has changed the first team's style so they actually get results. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. And meanwhile, De Klerk and Rongen are STILL at the club and teaching their philosaphy to the kids. I think the long term is still in place, while Mariner is currently making sure that TFC get short term results.

T-boy
07-06-2012, 12:36 PM
I can find you his comment from this week about young back four learning new 442 system,it means he does not believe in 433 .

If I say "I like sweet food", does it mean that I DON'T like savoury food? No, it doesn't.

Mariner has said that the players he has will dictate the way we play. Right NOW - TFC is full of VERY average MLS players who can only be successful playing a simple game. So, Mariner gets them to play this simple game. There is no indication, at all, that Mariner couldn't adopt a more technicaly style WHEN TFC have the personel to do so. He said himself that players dictate the style and formation. Doesn't that indicate that WHEN the club have enough tecnically proficient players, that he will play a more tehnical game?

Or am I reading Mariner's comment completely incorrectly? Are you saying that when Mariner says "players dictate formations" that it means that "I will play 4-4-2 no matter what?". I don't read it that way!

Oldtimer
07-06-2012, 12:41 PM
Only if you teach them to play 433,and that's is the whole point,you teach the kids 442 you are stuck with that forever.You develop the kids in 433 and they will adapt to any formation.



As someone who coached youth for many years, I'll vouch that denime is mostly right with this. I did manage to teach a more technical game and a 4-3-3 formation to youth, but it was difficult. You are teaching a whole new mentality, not just a style and a formation. If all of your instincts are to boot and run because you were taught that from an early age, it's not just a simple matter of switching a switch.

Technical players (my oldest son was one) can learn boot and run, it's easy. He did that when he moved to rep, although he first learned his football emulating Zidane in France.

T-boy
07-06-2012, 12:42 PM
Lastly - I don't understand the "fear" of playing longer ball, more direct style of football! I've seen some fantastic long ball teams in my time, some VERY exciting pressing football teams! The "fear" of playing "non total football" is overwhelming on this forum. It's like some people have been given a drug that makes tham only desire ONE type of football, or that some people saw Spain play in the Euro's and think that's the ONLY way to play football. In reality, hardly ANY football teams in the worl can play the way Spain play, or the way Barca can play, or the way Ajax played in the 90's. In reality, the majority of team play a mixed style of short passing, long passing, AND "hoofball". Hoofball doesn't always mean Preki-s dogmatic style of football, which was horrible to watch. I've actually found Mariner's style, so far, to be a good mix of short and long passing, technical and simple mixed together.

People shouldn't FEAR, or be scared, or playing some longer ball football.

After all - TFC's BEST goal when Winter was head coach was a LONG DIRECT ball from Frei to Martina! That was long ball football, and it was goal of the season! Did anybody complain at the time...do we think that Frei should have played the short pass to the full back instead of give it long to Martina to score a fantastic goal?

You shouldn't fear long ball football - sometimes long ball football is fantastic to watch.

T-boy
07-06-2012, 12:43 PM
As someone who coached youth for many years, I'll vouch that denime is mostly right with this. I did manage to teach a more technical game and a 4-3-3 formation to youth, but it was difficult. You are teaching a whole new mentality, not just a style and a formation. If all of your instincts are to boot and run because you were taught that from an early age, it's not just a simple matter of switching a switch.

Again, why does 4-4-2 HAVE to be "boot and run"? I think that's wrong assumption to make. Formation and style are different.

Oldtimer
07-06-2012, 12:48 PM
Again, why does 4-4-2 HAVE to be "boot and run"? I think that's wrong assumption to make. Formation and style are different.

It doesn't have to be. Mariner's 4-4-2 is boot and run, though. It's very traditional English football, and it's no co-incidence that Mariner's greatest defenders on this board happen to be English.

T-boy
07-06-2012, 01:01 PM
It doesn't have to be. Mariner's 4-4-2 is boot and run, though. It's very traditional English football, and it's no co-incidence that Mariner's greatest defenders on this board happen to be English.

Correct his style is currently mostly boot and run. But, nobody has answered the other question! Does TFC currently have defenders that can play anything OTHER than boot and run? I would argue NO. So, Mariner doesn't have much of a choice on style of play right now. We ALL saw how unsuccessful MLS players were at Winter's technically proficient game were, correct?

Right now we have a full back playing CB, a 19 year old playing FB, another CB who has played 4 games in MLS, and the other FB who has played more games in midfield than he has defense in his MLS career. Does that sound like a bunch of defenders who should be playing Winter's short passing style right now? Mariner's choice is playing more direct (especially out of defense) is extremely sensible given the players we have! Or would you all rather us bring Iro and Harden back as CB pairing and try Winter's short passing out of the backline once again?! :p

And secondly - why does "boot and run" have to be horrible football to watch?

Derko
07-06-2012, 01:06 PM
Lastly - I don't understand the "fear" of playing longer ball, more direct style of football! I've seen some fantastic long ball teams in my time, some VERY exciting pressing football teams! The "fear" of playing "non total football" is overwhelming on this forum. It's like some people have been given a drug that makes tham only desire ONE type of football, or that some people saw Spain play in the Euro's and think that's the ONLY way to play football. In reality, hardly ANY football teams in the worl can play the way Spain play, or the way Barca can play, or the way Ajax played in the 90's. In reality, the majority of team play a mixed style of short passing, long passing, AND "hoofball". Hoofball doesn't always mean Preki-s dogmatic style of football, which was horrible to watch. I've actually found Mariner's style, so far, to be a good mix of short and long passing, technical and simple mixed together.

People shouldn't FEAR, or be scared, or playing some longer ball football.

After all - TFC's BEST goal when Winter was head coach was a LONG DIRECT ball from Frei to Martina! That was long ball football, and it was goal of the season! Did anybody complain at the time...do we think that Frei should have played the short pass to the full back instead of give it long to Martina to score a fantastic goal?

You shouldn't fear long ball football - sometimes long ball football is fantastic to watch.

I totally agree, while people have their preferences, one should be open to all formations and tactics, It makes for intelligent, open minded fans.

This may be off topic and off sport, but whilst coaching All-Ontario Silver Medalists Adult Broomball Team, when we were on a Power Play I would occasionally pull my goalie to have six attackers and totally fuck-up the opposing team, and score a goal or win the game.

The element of surprise in tactics can make a difference, even in Football, what seems to be working, go with it. just my opinion.

TFC 2 Union 1 on Sunday, Come on you Reds

KRO
07-06-2012, 01:23 PM
And secondly - why does "boot and run" have to be horrible football to watch?

It's not. I'm finding it much more entertaining than the "lets see how many passes we can string together before we give the ball to the opposition in a dangerous position" tactic.

I was willing to go along with the attempt to bring Ajax to North America. I finally ran out of patience on the day that Frings came back from injury and coughed up a pass for a goal in the first minute. It was quite obvious that Winter didn't have a clue and needed to be relieved of his position. It took a few more weeks and becoming the "worst team in the world" before that happened.

Now in a short period of time we have a team that is scoring goals, competing in every game and looks as if they enjoying playing. With a bit more tweeking and some slight improvements in personnel we can be a team to compete seriously in this league.

For those of you who would prefer to lose while trying to look like Barcelona, there's nothing I can say.

Oldtimer
07-06-2012, 01:35 PM
There is a middle point between Winter's overly technical system (too hard for the Hardens and Canns) and Mariner's longball play. I didn't like either. Winter's, because TFC is not Barcelona and will never be able to play that technically complex a game, and Mariner's "let's boot it down the field and lose possession," which was antiquated 10 years ago and will never lead to TFC being a top team. Mariner is no better than Preki so far, and Preki failed to make the playoffs.

The language divide means that most here have never watched French football, which is a pity: it combines technical wizardry like Zidane exemplified with tough physical play that any Serioux would be proud of. It would be a good model for MLS to follow.

bangersandmash
07-06-2012, 02:11 PM
-will get raped repeatedly by decent teams


I know I post here, like... never... but please take a moment to think about why you should use a different verb. It just. isn't. the same.

v00d00daddy
07-06-2012, 02:15 PM
I know I post here, like... never... but please take a moment to think about why you should use a different verb. It just. isn't. the same.

Not sure what you're getting at. I thought it was an appropriate way to describe our opponents imposing their will on TFC.

I'm sorry if you find it offensive.

Richard
07-06-2012, 02:24 PM
Correct his style is currently mostly boot and run. But, nobody has answered the other question! Does TFC currently have defenders that can play anything OTHER than boot and run? I would argue NO. So, Mariner doesn't have much of a choice on style of play right now. We ALL saw how unsuccessful MLS players were at Winter's technically proficient game were, correct?

Right now we have a full back playing CB, a 19 year old playing FB, another CB who has played 4 games in MLS, and the other FB who has played more games in midfield than he has defense in his MLS career. Does that sound like a bunch of defenders who should be playing Winter's short passing style right now? Mariner's choice is playing more direct (especially out of defense) is extremely sensible given the players we have! Or would you all rather us bring Iro and Harden back as CB pairing and try Winter's short passing out of the backline once again?! :p

And secondly - why does "boot and run" have to be horrible football to watch?

You have summed up the problem quite nicely. TFC have horrible roster mismanagment, it is Mariner and Winters fault for not getting the players to play the system we decided to play. It is there decision to go with the young back line, they are at fault for not getting better vetern players and depth in the defensive positions.

Btw dont tell me MLS cant have the technicaly good players because of the cap, there are many teams that have such players. KC,RSL,LA,Seattle etc.

v00d00daddy
07-06-2012, 02:30 PM
There is a middle point between Winter's overly technical system (too hard for the Hardens and Canns) and Mariner's longball play. I didn't like either. Winter's, because TFC is not Barcelona and will never be able to play that technically complex a game, and Mariner's "let's boot it down the field and lose possession," which was antiquated 10 years ago and will never lead to TFC being a top team. Mariner is no better than Preki so far, and Preki failed to make the playoffs.

The language divide means that most here have never watched French football, which is a pity: it combines technical wizardry like Zidane exemplified with tough physical play that any Serioux would be proud of. It would be a good model for MLS to follow.

I agree

To be honest....I'd imagine that many people who support TFC (and football in general in Toronto/Canada) have watched tons of football in their lifetimes. And have been passionate about it too. Where I think there is a disconnect is the variety of football that has been watched.

Growing up in an Italian home, with an Italian father as my coach, I was exposed to Italian football. Both professional and recreational.

BUT....I was a soccer junkie and would watch anything I could.

I LOVED soccer saturday with Graham Leggat (miss it a lot lol) and as such...was exposed to highlights and vignettes about every major league in Europe and even some of the smaller ones.

I also was forced to watch the Premiership on Saturdays because, if you loved football, you had the choice to watch Man U every Saturday or nothing. LOL

Many football lovers that grew up with English and other British roots likely didn't care to watch Serie A games Sunday mornings and have always been catered to in this country when it comes to football coverage.

Even when leagues like Serie A were far and away the best in the world.

It's even worse now. THere are still shows on television called the "soccer show" or the "footy show" but they're about 90% EPL and tiny tidbits of other leagues. Even when the Score showed Serie A this year...their content before and after games was EPL-centric.

Its hard to compete with that. It's hard to argue that there is other football out there and other ways to play when it's all we get exposed to.

That's the only reason that I can come up with to explain why people would still want to watch hoof ball and go so far as to suggest that it can bring success.

It's not about saying that only Barca and Spain can play possession football. Any team can play it. It just takes time. It's all relative.

The sad thing, for me, is that TFC tried it for a little over one season and abandoned it...and for who?

A man who still thinks that hoof ball can be successful and supporters who love it in part because of nostalgia.

It's like the old Italian cattenaccio (I wasn't a fan of playing for a 0-0 tie LOL). It was effective at one point in time but to play it today would be horrible to watch, hard to win with and a terrible way to develop players.

ManUtd4ever
07-06-2012, 02:41 PM
I think we do know and it was already published on Monday.
http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?3414




And the most qualified replacement was NOT promoted internally,T.Rongen and BDK are more qualified and have much better knowledge to carry on with the philosophy that club decided to go 18 months ago,and half way into it they decided to go back were they started 18 months ago.What TFC FO did is same as to try to swim across the river and half way trough turn back and swim to the shore were you started,because you panicked and thought it's to far away,and you wont make to the other side.

Mariner's contact was extended month before Winter was fired,and now to say TFC FO did not have a time to look for long term solution is very naive.

There is no excuse for ANSLEMI,so please don't even try to justify anything ANSELMI did in the past 6 years with TFC,he was incompetent in 2006/07 and he is still incompetent in 2012/12,nothing will change as long he is sitting in FO.

ANSLEMI GTFO!!

-The Canadian Soccer News report is pure speculation. Nothing confirmed.

-If Rongen or DeKlerk were promoted to maintain the same tactical approach as Winter with the first team, why make a change in the first place? The impetus regarding a change at the coaching level was that the 4-3-3 clearly wasn't working with the first team, and based on the makeup of our current roster, Mariner has implemented a more practical approach that has yielded results in league play thus far.

-Once again, there is no evidence to support that Mariner played an underhanded role of some sort in Winter's dismissal. Mariner's alleged contract extension has little to do with the fact that Winter's record in of itself had justified his dismissal. Any other manager that started the season 0-9 would have likely been fired even sooner than that. Furthermore, there's no chance in hell that the incoming ownership group would have wanted to be saddled with a long term successor to Winter that wasn't their guy. As I've stated many times, Bell/Rogers/Tanenbaum will obviously want to conduct their own search for a replacement if Mariner falters. Who's naive?

-As for Anselmi, I'm not sure how you possibly concluded from reading my post that I defended him in any manner whatsoever.

ManUtd4ever
07-06-2012, 02:46 PM
Fine - so keep it internal. This sort of information should not make it outside for general consumption. The fact that it did makes the situation seem even worse.



I think it is relevant. Coach Winter was fired over the club's record during a time when his top two players spent much of it injured. Had they not been injured perhaps results would have been improved and Winter is still here.

-In this day and age of social networking and online media, you can hardly fault management in the event that unsubstantiated rumors may have leaked on twitter. It happens all the time.

-Winter wasn't fired because of a stretch of a few games in which Frings or Koevermans were injured earlier this season. He was fired because of his cumulative record in league play over 44 games.

v00d00daddy
07-06-2012, 02:47 PM
-Once again there is no evidence to support that Mariner played an underhanded role of some sort in Winter's dismissal. Mariner's contract extension has little to do with the fact that Winter's record in of itself had justified his dismissal. Any other manager that started the season 0-9 would have likely been fired even sooner than that. Furthermore, there's no chance in hell that the incoming ownership group would have wanted to be saddled with a long term successor to Winter who wasn't their guy. As I've stated many times, Bell/Rogers/Tanenbaum will obviously want to conduct their own search for a replacement if Mariner falters. Who's naive?



Explain the rationale behind extending Mariners contract?

mastermixer
07-06-2012, 02:49 PM
The formation doesn't matter. Call it whatever formation you like.

Te fact is that our senior team is now playing a style that:

-is ugly to watch (opinion of course)
-died back when the manager was actually playing the game lol
-teaches players nothing
-is easily figured out
-will get raped repeatedly by decent teams
-is hard to win with on a game by game basis because you can't dictate the play...even when playing against inferior teams.
-is the exact opposite of what the club decided is the way to go in terms of getting results, producing good footballers and playing attractive football for the fans


But its okay because we got a few ties on the back of the hottest goal scorer in the league in the last 3 weeks.

This club has, in 3 short weeks, re-lived everything that has kept football down in this country. Mariners style of play and supporters endorsement of it is a perfect snapshot at why the sport is fucked in this country.

Seriously... I come on here almost every day and swear I remember everyone talking about how poorly we play in the 433 and will never be able to be implemented in a talent handicapped league. Now we make the changes, team is playing competitive soccer and everyone is against it??

v00d00daddy
07-06-2012, 02:52 PM
Seriously... I come on here almost every day and swear I remember everyone talking about how poorly we play in the 433 and will never be able to be implemented in a talent handicapped league. Now we make the changes, team is playing competitive soccer and everyone is against it??

I am NOT one of the "everyone" that was complaining about the 4-3-3. And it's also not "everyone" complaining about the garbage style we play now. LOL

Pookie
07-06-2012, 02:55 PM
So, still no case being made for Mariner to be able to oversee a 4-3-3 system eventually?

Meaning that if we are to continue with TR and the TFC-A playing 4-3-3 at some point we will need to part ways with Mariner. Conversely, if he is to stay, we will part ways with TR?

Stouffville_RPB
07-06-2012, 02:56 PM
So, Mariner has changed the first team's style so they actually get results. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. And meanwhile, De Klerk and Rongen are STILL at the club and teaching their philosophy to the kids. I think the long term is still in place, while Mariner is currently making sure that TFC get short term results.

I can see your point here and this may be the thinking of FO.

In my opinion though eventually I think it will just lead to another disagreement between the Dutch TD and the English coach instead of the other way around that it was with Winter.

mastermixer
07-06-2012, 02:57 PM
I am NOT one of the "everyone" that was complaining about the 4-3-3. And it's also not "everyone" complaining about the garbage style we play now. LOL

Exaggerated slightly for effect lol. :)

T-boy
07-06-2012, 02:58 PM
I can see your point here and this may be the thinking of FO.

In my opinion though eventually I think it will just lead to another disagreement between the Dutch TD and the English coach instead of the other way around that it was with Winter.

Are you saying that the English and the Dutch can't get along?! :p

TOBOR !
07-06-2012, 02:59 PM
Winter wasn't fired because of a stretch of a few games in which Frings or Koevermans were injured earlier this season. He was fired because of his cumulative record in league play over 44 games.

In my book that's a raw deal - bringing a man in to overhaul the club with the understanding that success won't come early - and then using that lack of success to justify firing him early.

I'll give you the other point, but they should still do a better job of managing their optics.

T-boy
07-06-2012, 03:00 PM
So, still no case being made for Mariner to be able to oversee a 4-3-3 system eventually?

Meaning that if we are to continue with TR and the TFC-A playing 4-3-3 at some point we will need to part ways with Mariner. Conversely, if he is to stay, we will part ways with TR?

There's also no real indication or reason, right now, that Mariner couldn't play 4-3-3 eventually We have no real evidence to suggest that Mariner could NOT do this. It's congecture on some people's behalf. Unless some people have a DeLorian and have seen the future and knows what happens in the coming season(s)?!

T-boy
07-06-2012, 03:01 PM
In my book that's a raw deal - bringing a man in to overhaul the club with the understanding that success won't come early - and then using that lack of success to justify firing him early.

I'll give you the other point, but they should still do a better job of managing their optics.

Can you name another club/manager that has taken a season and a half to oversee change and got worse results in that time? In football, a season and a half is a lifetime! A decent manager can oversee change in much MUCH less time.

ManUtd4ever
07-06-2012, 03:02 PM
Explain the rationale behind extending Mariners contract?

If I'm not mistaken, weren't Winter, DeKlerk, and Mariner all hired at the same time and signed to comparable 3 year contracts anyway?

I tried googling Paul Mariner's alleged contract extension and nothing came up.

Perhaps there is no grand conspiracy after all?

ManUtd4ever
07-06-2012, 03:04 PM
In my book that's a raw deal - bringing a man in to overhaul the club with the understanding that success won't come early - and then using that lack of success to justify firing him early.

I'll give you the other point, but they should still do a better job of managing their optics.

Typically, I would agree, but 7 wins in 44 games? I hardly think that's jumping the gun by anyone's standards. Personally, I don't think a manager would have lasted that long in any other organization.

narduch
07-06-2012, 03:05 PM
If I'm not mistaken, weren't Winter, DeKlerk, and Mariner all hired at the same time and signed to comparable 3 year contracts anyway?

I tried googling Paul Mariner's alleged contract extension and nothing came up.

Perhaps there is no grand conspiracy after all?

Or perhaps Mariner got the same kind of super secret extension that Mo Johnston got.

I'm hoping the extension talk isn't true. Anselmi is an idiot if he gave him an extension already.

mastermixer
07-06-2012, 03:17 PM
Or perhaps Mariner got the same kind of super secret extension that Mo Johnston got.

I'm hoping the extension talk isn't true. Anselmi is an idiot if he gave him an extension already.

I wouldnt be surprised... Anselmi knows he is not going to last much longer so why not go out swinging? Does anyone above him know any better anyways? :facepalm:

Oldtimer
07-06-2012, 03:20 PM
-If Rongen or DeKlerk were promoted to maintain the same tactical approach as Winter with the first team, why make a change in the first place?

If identicle, yes why change?

However Thomas Rongen wouldn't be identicle. He knows enough about this league to know how to be realistic... how to temper the ideals of Dutch football with the realities of the type of player we have available to us. Remember, he is deeply connected with the American youth set-up. Plus he's the only coach at TFC who is wearing an MLS Cup ring. :)

Or you could look at Steve Nicol (who is still available, BTW). His style is more eclectic, and the Revs didn't simply just hoof it down the field under his watch. He got to the MLS cup final, multiple times and is one of the most respected coaches in the league.

So TFC had available (1) An MLS Cup-winning coach, and (2) An MLS Cup finalist. Who did they pick? The guy with almost no first team coaching experience, Paul Mariner.

Greatest Ripoff
07-06-2012, 03:26 PM
Can you name another club/manager that has taken a season and a half to oversee change and got worse results in that time? In football, a season and a half is a lifetime! A decent manager can oversee change in much MUCH less time.

Can you name another club where the person involved in player acquisition has taken a season and a half to oversee change, got worse results in that time and then got promoted to coach?

Ajax TFC
07-06-2012, 03:27 PM
Lastly - I don't understand the "fear" of playing longer ball, more direct style of football! I've seen some fantastic long ball teams in my time, some VERY exciting pressing football teams! The "fear" of playing "non total football" is overwhelming on this forum. It's like some people have been given a drug that makes tham only desire ONE type of football, or that some people saw Spain play in the Euro's and think that's the ONLY way to play football. In reality, hardly ANY football teams in the worl can play the way Spain play, or the way Barca can play, or the way Ajax played in the 90's. In reality, the majority of team play a mixed style of short passing, long passing, AND "hoofball". Hoofball doesn't always mean Preki-s dogmatic style of football, which was horrible to watch. I've actually found Mariner's style, so far, to be a good mix of short and long passing, technical and simple mixed together.

People shouldn't FEAR, or be scared, or playing some longer ball football.

After all - TFC's BEST goal when Winter was head coach was a LONG DIRECT ball from Frei to Martina! That was long ball football, and it was goal of the season! Did anybody complain at the time...do we think that Frei should have played the short pass to the full back instead of give it long to Martina to score a fantastic goal?

You shouldn't fear long ball football - sometimes long ball football is fantastic to watch.
There's nothing wrong with playing a long ball to a teammate in open space. It's a problem when you're playing longballs with no target and it's your only method of moving the ball. If the players don't have the skill to play short passes, they definitely don't have the ability to give a good long ball to an open teammate.
For the record, the Dutch system isn't anti longball, it's against creating kicking the ball aimlessly in the hopes that your forwards win the 50/50 balls. That Frei to Martina goal wasn't against the Dutch football philosophy. Frei saw that he had an open man at the front, so he gave him an excellent long ball. That's called vision, and it's very different from what most players are doing right now

Richard
07-06-2012, 03:28 PM
If identicle, yes why change?

However Thomas Rongen wouldn't be identicle. He knows enough about this league to know how to be realistic... how to temper the ideals of Dutch football with the realities of the type of player we have available to us. Remember, he is deeply connected with the American youth set-up. Plus he's the only coach at TFC who is wearing an MLS Cup ring. :)

Or you could look at Steve Nicol (who is still available, BTW). His style is more eclectic, and the Revs didn't simply just hoof it down the field under his watch. He got to the MLS cup final, multiple times and is one of the most respected coaches in the league.

So TFC had available (1) An MLS Cup-winning coach, and (2) An MLS Cup finalist. Who did they pick? The guy with almost no first team coaching experience, Paul Mariner.

How do you know Thomas Rongen wanted the job? I think it was mentioned somehwere he was not interested in the first team but academy for the near future.

Pookie
07-06-2012, 03:54 PM
If I'm not mistaken, weren't Winter, DeKlerk, and Mariner all hired at the same time and signed to comparable 3 year contracts anyway?

I tried googling Paul Mariner's alleged contract extension and nothing came up.

Perhaps there is no grand conspiracy after all?

May 3, 2012 Duane Rollins:

There is so much information coming forward right now, it is hard to shake loose what is real and what might be MLSE looking to trace their 'leak.' But if there has been one piece of information that has been consistent in the last 72 hours, it is that MLSE has quietly given a 3 year-contract extension to Paul Mariner. It would seem the pragmatists, once thought to be the outsiders, are gaining ground.

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?3168-A-growing-disconnect

Ajax TFC
07-06-2012, 03:57 PM
-The Canadian Soccer News report is pure speculation. Nothing confirmed.

-If Rongen or DeKlerk were promoted to maintain the same tactical approach as Winter with the first team, why make a change in the first place? The impetus regarding a change at the coaching level was that the 4-3-3 clearly wasn't working with the first team, and based on the makeup of our current roster, Mariner has implemented a more practical approach that has yielded results in league play thus far.
That wasn't the official reason. They scrapped Winter because he wasn't working, not because the system doesn't work. To suggest that all Dutch coaches are the same is ridiculous. what you're saying is that Thomas Rongen, Bob de Klerk and Aron Winter all coach the exact same way and would all get the exact same results if put in charge of the same team. Ridiculous! I guess France should have hired a foreign coach after going out in the group stage of the last two tournaments because that's clearly an indicator that the system that French coaches employ doesn't work, right?

Different coaches bring different results even if they have the same philosophy. There are many teams that have a specific football philosophy and they hire coaches who can implement it, even if the previous one failed

Pookie
07-06-2012, 04:07 PM
There's also no real indication or reason, right now, that Mariner couldn't play 4-3-3 eventually We have no real evidence to suggest that Mariner could NOT do this. It's congecture on some people's behalf. Unless some people have a DeLorian and have seen the future and knows what happens in the coming season(s)?!

Can we set up a time now to talk about my season ticket renewals or should I just email you directly at the MLSE address I have for you in my address book? ;) Just to warn you, be prepared to tell me why I should renew with Tom Anselmi in charge. Because right now, my money is going towards a golf membership and a few cases of Innis and Gunn.

We have no evidence to suggest he can do the job of implementing a 4-3-3 vision. Which means that we should have a search and if there are more experienced candidates, they should replace him.

That said, I wouldn't worry. Anselmi isn't going to set the vision. What will likely happen is that TR and BDK will eventually leave or be forced out and PM, if season ticket renewals are good, will keep his job and implement his own crew there. One he can control. If Earl plays his cards right, he can be both Director of Excelling in the Field of Excellence and Academy Development. And why the fuck not... Jimmy Brennan can be Goalkeeper Coach as well as the club's official Team Doctor. Jobs for everyone.

T-boy
07-06-2012, 04:11 PM
Can you name another club where the person involved in player acquisition has taken a season and a half to oversee change, got worse results in that time and then got promoted to coach?

We've all been this this argument before. You simply CANNOT compare roles! There are MANY instances where assistant coaches of poor teams have been promoted to head coach, and then done a hell of a lot better! De Matteo is an easy example of this! If you were to judge him on his assastant roll, you would assume he was going to get bad results as Chelsea. But he didn't, he got good results!

T-boy
07-06-2012, 04:14 PM
Can we set up a time now to talk about my season ticket renewals or should I just email you directly at the MLSE address I have for you in my address book? ;) Just to warn you, be prepared to tell me why I should renew with Tom Anselmi in charge. Because right now, my money is going towards a golf membership and a few cases of Innis and Gunn.

We have no evidence to suggest he can do the job of implementing a 4-3-3 vision. Which means that we should have a search and if there are more experienced candidates, they should replace him.

That said, I wouldn't worry. Anselmi isn't going to set the vision. What will likely happen is that TR and BDK will eventually leave or be forced out and PM, if season ticket renewals are good, will keep his job and implement his own crew there. One he can control. If Earl plays his cards right, he can be both Director of Excelling in the Field of Excellence and Academy Development. And why the fuck not... Jimmy Brennan can be Goalkeeper Coach as well as the club's officialTeam Doctor. Jobs for everyone.

I have no idea why people on this forum keep suggesting that I work for MLSE!

I'm just a normal, run of the mill, average fan who going to watch TFC.

Just because I didn't like Winter, and now I like Mariner, and have enjoyed the last few games of us actually getting good results, doesn't make me "in" with the club at all! If I was IN with the club, wouldn't I also have liked Winter and backed him up?!

T-boy
07-06-2012, 04:15 PM
Can you name another club where the person involved in player acquisition has taken a season and a half to oversee change, got worse results in that time and then got promoted to coach?

I guess by asking me a question proves that you can't think of an answer to my original question? I don't think ANYBODY can think of a manager who has had a year and a half to turn a team around and got worse results, and KEPT their job in the process! Anyone?!

Pookie
07-06-2012, 04:17 PM
^ so what do you think? Can Mariner equal Preki's record of 5-4-1 or will he fall short? 3 wins in 4 games. Can he do it?

ManUtd4ever
07-06-2012, 04:17 PM
May 3, 2012 Duane Rollins:

There is so much information coming forward right now, it is hard to shake loose what is real and what might be MLSE looking to trace their 'leak.' But if there has been one piece of information that has been consistent in the last 72 hours, it is that MLSE has quietly given a 3 year-contract extension to Paul Mariner. It would seem the pragmatists, once thought to be the outsiders, are gaining ground.

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?3168-A-growing-disconnect

As the article clearly suggests, the information was not sourced or confirmed.

In any case, if people want to blame Mariner for being the ring leader of some sort of inner conspiracy to get Winter fired, so be it. I'm done with this topic. Maybe you and others can start a Winter "truth movement" and organize a formal inquiry.

I mean after all, it's not like Winter's record had anything to do with his dismissal.

Pookie
07-06-2012, 04:18 PM
I guess by asking me a question proves that you can't think of an answer to my original question? I don't think ANYBODY can think of a manager who has had a year and a half to turn a team around and got worse results, and KEPT their job in the process! Anyone?!

Are you talking CCL?

ManUtd4ever
07-06-2012, 04:22 PM
That wasn't the official reason. They scrapped Winter because he wasn't working, not because the system doesn't work. To suggest that all Dutch coaches are the same is ridiculous. what you're saying is that Thomas Rongen, Bob de Klerk and Aron Winter all coach the exact same way and would all get the exact same results if put in charge of the same team. Ridiculous! I guess France should have hired a foreign coach after going out in the group stage of the last two tournaments because that's clearly an indicator that the system that French coaches employ doesn't work, right?

Different coaches bring different results even if they have the same philosophy. There are many teams that have a specific football philosophy and they hire coaches who can implement it, even if the previous one failed

I didn't suggest that all Dutch coaches preach similar strategies. But as for Winter, DeKlerk, and Rongen, yes, they were in fact trying to implement the identical variation of the 4-3-3 system with the first team and the Academy, and that was confirmed on this forum many times in the past. And yes, I believe TFC's shortcomings in league play under Winter's tutelage were predominantly a systemic issue.

Pookie
07-06-2012, 04:25 PM
As the article clearly suggests, the information was not sourced or confirmed.

In any case, if people want to blame Mariner for being the ring leader of some sort of inner conspiracy to get Winter fired, so be it. I'm done with this topic. Maybe you and others can start a Winter "truth movement" and organize a formal inquiry.

Actually, I'm very ok with the idea that Winter was fired. My only issue with the way it went down is that Anselmi didn't go first.

Where I am focussed now is in highlighting where mis-management continues to exist at this club. From the Plata issue right now, to scouting, to roster issues, to not searching for a coach, to having an Academy play a different vision than the coach, to not being sure who the decision maker is (as presented in the Nesta example) to season ticket prices to having more scouts with TFC-A than in the US, to having TFC-A only select players from certain Rep clubs (hail to Brampton and Mississauga) to wasting all my energy (and money) on trying to support a vision that was created with Klinsmann only to see it abandoned as they try to salvage ticket renewals as fans blow themselves silly over a 1-1 draw against the next to worst place team... I guess you could say I am in a bad place right now with respect to how MY football team is being run ;)....

Again, don't interpret this as a knock on Mariner. I expect immediate results because of all the above. If they don't materialize, someone needs to answer and set this course. A new leader can keep Mariner, I really don't care at this point. But Mariner's 19 month connection to this club leaves him little wiggle room, IMO and Anselmi's 6 years is 5 years too many.

/end rant

/start new beer

Greatest Ripoff
07-06-2012, 04:29 PM
We've all been this this argument before. You simply CANNOT compare roles! There are MANY instances where assistant coaches of poor teams have been promoted to head coach, and then done a hell of a lot better! De Matteo is an easy example of this! If you were to judge him on his assastant roll, you would assume he was going to get bad results as Chelsea. But he didn't, he got good results!

Mariner was not the assistance coach. He was in charge of player acquisition. He shares as much blame as Winter. This isn't a Winter v Mariner thing. They were both shit and needed go but one got fired and one got promoted.

Can you think of an answer to my original question? I don't think ANYBODY can think of a player director who has had a year and a half to turn a team around and got worse results, and KEPT their job in the process and got promoted. And to be clear, I am not talking about assistant coaches, as Mariner was not an assistant coach.

ManUtd4ever
07-06-2012, 04:29 PM
Actually, I'm very ok with the idea that Winter was fired. My only issue with the way it went down is that Anselmi didn't go first.

Where I am focussed now is in highlighting where mis-management continues to exist at this club. From the Plata issue right now, to scouting, to roster issues, to not searching for a coach, to having an Academy play a different vision than the coach, to not being sure who the decision maker is (as presented in the Nesta example) to season ticket prices to having more scouts with TFC-A than in the US, to having TFC-A only select players from certain Rep clubs (hail to Brampton and Mississauga) to wasting all my energy (and money) on trying to support a vision that was created with Klinsmann only to see it abandoned as they try to salvage ticket renewals as fans blow themselves silly over a 1-1 draw against the next to worst place team... I guess you could say I am in a bad place right now with respect to how MY football team is being run ;)....

Again, don't interpret this as a knock on Mariner. I expect immediate results because of all the above. If they don't materialize, someone needs to answer and set this course. A new leader can keep Mariner, I really don't care at this point. But Mariner's 19 month connection to this club leaves him little wiggle room, IMO and Anselmi's 6 years is 5 years too many.

/end rant

/start new beer

That's fine, and I agree with that. My issue is with people who have decided to hold Mariner accountable as a result, and unjustifiably scrutinize him despite the respectable job he's done thus far.

Greatest Ripoff
07-06-2012, 04:32 PM
I guess by asking me a question proves that you can't think of an answer to my original question? I don't think ANYBODY can think of a manager who has had a year and a half to turn a team around and got worse results, and KEPT their job in the process! Anyone?!
]


And to be ultra clear for you, in no way am I sticking up for/didn't think Winter should fired. I think Mariner should have been fired as well.

Please tell me why Mariner should have come out from all of this and got a promotion?

Ajax TFC
07-06-2012, 04:43 PM
I didn't suggest that all Dutch coaches preach similar strategies. But as for Winter, DeKlerk, and Rongen, yes, they were in fact trying to implement the identical variation of the 4-3-3 system with the first team and the Academy, and that was confirmed on this forum many times in the past. And yes, I believe TFC's shortcomings in league play under Winter's tutelage were predominantly a systemic issue.
Their over visions may have been the same, but that doesn't mean they would have all implemented it the same way. A big part of Winter's problem was his player selection. He tried to play high pressure pass and move football with Dunfield in almost every game, and it caused the midfield to fall apart. He also kept Avila on the bench for a bunch of games at the beginning, and then played him out of position on the wing. And yes, a bad DM is a massive problem in the Dutch system. You can't say that De Klerk and Rongen would have made the same boneheaded game day selections that Winter did.

I can also say that de Klerk, Rongen, and Winter don't have the same preferred way of lining up. I remember one halftime video with Rongen and de Klerk arguing about point forward vs point back, which does make a huge difference in the way the team plays.

Pookie
07-06-2012, 04:55 PM
That's fine, and I agree with that. My issue is with people who have decided to hold Mariner accountable as a result, and unjustifiably scrutinize him despite the respectable job he's done thus far.

We have lost ground on the playoff spot. I don't call that progress.

And the reason he is held accountable is that he was here for 19 months. He has also embarked on a new model, with the same players therefore needs to justify why his vision is better than the one that SKC has adopted.

BHTC Mike
07-06-2012, 05:09 PM
Can you name another club where the person involved in player acquisition has taken a season and a half to oversee change, got worse results in that time and then got promoted to coach?
Sporting Kansas City and the Chicago Fire to name two.

They're both way better as a result. Sometimes the right guy is just hiding in plain sight.

And no one has ever provided compelling evidence that Paul Mariner was the guy with the final say on TFC's roster decision up 'til now. He was there to provide insight and connections in MLS but was clearly subordinate to Winter. People suggesting otherwise are pushing an agenda not supported by any mainstream reporter or blogger who is close to the team. Kurt Larson is being pilloried for making the same point (however pithy he's been about it).

Greatest Ripoff
07-06-2012, 06:26 PM
Sporting Kansas City and the Chicago Fire to name two.

They're both way better as a result. Sometimes the right guy is just hiding in plain sight.

And no one has ever provided compelling evidence that Paul Mariner was the guy with the final say on TFC's roster decision up 'til now. He was there to provide insight and connections in MLS but was clearly subordinate to Winter. People suggesting otherwise are pushing an agenda not supported by any mainstream reporter or blogger who is close to the team. Kurt Larson is being pilloried for making the same point (however pithy he's been about it).


According to Cochrane on the TSN FC podcast both him and Mariner were the ones responsible for bringing in players.

Under the first two years with Klopas as the TD, the Chicago Fire finished 2nd in the east and made it to the semi finals of the MLS cup. In Peter Vermes first year as TD for KC, they were 1 point off of a playoff spot with 10 wins and in his second season they made the play offs. Toronto had 6 wins last year and 2 this year. I just don't see how that justifies a promotion or is similar to the situations you mentioned.

Redcoe15
07-06-2012, 07:22 PM
-The question regarding Cochrane's response to the Plata controversy is valid. Cochrane should have been fired along with MoJo and Preki.

-We don't know if there was internal disagreement regarding Nesta, it's all speculation at this point. Even if there was, it's not uncommon to have differing opinions on player recruitment, even within the most astute professional sports management teams.

-This issue has been discussed ad nauseum. With the pending sale of MLSE and a moratorium on long term hiring decisions in place for obvious reasons, the most qualified replacement was promoted internally to try and salvage the season. Subsequently, Paul Mariner has adapted a modified approach that he felt was more condusive to success in MLS in the short term. So far, the team has responded well to his tactical adjustments and boisterous nature.

-I can understand the concern regarding Cochrane, but to dismantle the entire front office ten games into the season is nothing short of idiotic. A semblence of stability was required for the duration of the season, not to mention that once again, permanent replacements could obviously have not been hired at this point with the pending transfer of ownership. Bell/Rogers/Tanenbaum will obviously want to make their own determination regarding the long term direction of the club if Mariner falters.

-Once again, a question that should be directed at the new ownership consortium once the sale of MLSE is official, although I agree that the ticket pricing issue is a key factor moving forward.

-The same question could be asked of any MLS club that has aging stars in their lineup. Most DPs in the league are in the twilight of their career, and logic would dictate that plan B would be to sign suitable replacements as DPs when the time comes.

-Irrelevant. Any team in the league would obviously endure hardship without their two best players in the lineup.

-Tom Anselmi has essentially acknowledged to the public that he is not qualified for his current position when he initially reached out to the league and hired Mo Johnston, and once again, when he hired a high profile consultant to determine the identity and trajectory of the franchise moving forward. It's no secret that he is a MLSE puppet that was assigned as the CEO of TFC. The issue will hopefully be resolved once the new ownership group is in place.

And this is problably how it will shake down:

Tom Anselmi will be promoted to president of ML$E, taking over from Richard Peddie, problably for all the "great work" he's done at making Toronto FC profitable - meaning nothing. He will be replaced by a mini-me version of himself who's main job it will be to fleece fans out of more money, while the team continues to be a laughing stock of the league and sports fans in Southern Ontario.

And the walls come a tumblin' down, caused by this:
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

narduch
07-06-2012, 08:09 PM
And this is problably how it will shake down:

Tom Anselmi will be promoted to president of ML$E, taking over from Richard Peddie, problably for all the "great work" he's done at making Toronto FC profitable - meaning nothing. He will be replaced by a mini-me version of himself who's main job it will be to fleece fans out of more money, while the team continues to be a laughing stock of the league and sports fans in Southern Ontario.

And the walls come a tumblin' down, caused by this:
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

They will probably just promote Paul Beirne to TFC President.

Richard
07-06-2012, 08:15 PM
They will probably just promote Paul Beirne to TFC President.

LMAO

TOBOR !
07-06-2012, 09:48 PM
Typically, I would agree, but 7 wins in 44 games? I hardly think that's jumping the gun by anyone's standards. Personally, I don't think a manager would have lasted that long in any other organization.

Well, this is where we part ways. The club was undergoing a philosophical overhaul. Such things take longer than the allotted time.

T-boy
07-06-2012, 10:10 PM
]


And to be ultra clear for you, in no way am I sticking up for/didn't think Winter should fired. I think Mariner should have been fired as well.

Please tell me why Mariner should have come out from all of this and got a promotion?

Because WE (the fans) don't know how much control Winter and/or Mariner actually had in the dealings with transfers. Some of you are "assuming" that Mariner was the one pulling all the strings as far as transfers were concerned. But I don't think that was the case, I think Winter had the final say and was orchestrating things, NOT Mariner. In the end of the day, the head coach is the HEAD coach - not a director. So, the overall blame of the team has to fall on Winter, not Mariner. If Winter wanted "only a left footed centre back", then Mariner is limited in the players he can search for. If he then finds Iro but suggests that "he might not suit the system, but he IS left footed and the things you asked for". Then Winter finally decides if he signs the guy, NOT Mariner. So, Mariner isn't fired, but Winter should be.

Secondly, people excel in different roles in their companies. Myself, I work in the hospitailty industry and work for a hotel. I started a housekeeper(!) but I was fucking hopeless at it and couldn't make a tidy bed if it killed me! But I must have done something right, as I got promoted, and not, eventually, I'm head of the company. But man, I was terrible at my first job at the company. BUT, that doesn't mean I'm terrible as head of the company now! I think I'm doing a good job, and I've doubled revenue in the last 4 years (while most hotels are doing pretty badly due to the economy!). So.....if you look at it that way - Mariner deserves a shot at manager and there was no reason to promote him to that roll and see how he does!

T-boy
07-06-2012, 10:13 PM
Well, this is where we part ways. The club was undergoing a philosophical overhaul. Such things take longer than the allotted time.

If you are looking at any other industry other than pro sports, I would agree with you. But in pro sports, a season and a half is a massive amount of time. And 44 games is an insanely massive amount of time for a head coach of a football team! And then on top of that, the results were getting worse in the second season, instead of better! That's far too long for a football team to be "turning things around" IMO.

narduch
07-06-2012, 10:14 PM
Well, this is where we part ways. The club was undergoing a philosophical overhaul. Such things take longer than the allotted time.

I'm not a fan of Mariner, I think the jury is still out on him, but Winter's time was over.

denime
07-06-2012, 10:19 PM
I'm not a fan of Mariner, I think the jury is still out on him, but Winter's time was over.

Agree, Winter time was over,but now is time for a coach who will carry on a philosophical overhaul and not a coach who will dump whatever was done in last 18 months with him as Winter's "right Hand".
This is TFC FO fuck up and now we are stuck with it,like it or not.

KRO
07-06-2012, 11:01 PM
Agree, Winter time was over,but now is time for a coach who will carry on a philosophical overhaul and not a coach who will dump whatever was done in last 18 months with him as Winter's "right Hand".
This is TFC FO fuck up and now we are stuck with it,like it or not.
Why wouldn't you dump whatever was done in the last 18 months? It was a disaster. Winter was in charge of the team and they didn't believe in him. You could see it on the field. They're playing for Mariner and that's all that matters.

T-boy
07-06-2012, 11:14 PM
Agree, Winter time was over,but now is time for a coach who will carry on a philosophical overhaul and not a coach who will dump whatever was done in last 18 months with him as Winter's "right Hand".
This is TFC FO fuck up and now we are stuck with it,like it or not.

It just wasn't working for the FIRST TEAM. The reserves and the academy are still learning the Winter system. The FO has NOT thrown it all away over night, as far as I can see. But, Mariner HAD to start getting results in the short term for the first team, or we would all be VERY pissed off at creating a league record for the most defeats/goals conceded/lowest goals scored...etc etc. In the short term, changing the strategy for the first team, was a very wise idea by Mariner, IMO. If you wanted to keep playing the same way as before, and creating league record lows, that's fine. But I, for one, wasn't satisfied with that at all. I still think the long term goal should be to create tachtically superior players through the academy, and I'm sure Mariner also agree's with that. The way the league and cap space is managed, makes it essential to have a youth system that produces quality players. Mariner, I'm sure, realises the potential of producing great youth players that play technical systems that can take the club forward. But, in the meantime, those players aren't in the first team, and we have people like Dunfield, Emory, Ekcersley, RJ, and most of the reserve team, who just can't cope with a technically skills game! Until the point where the academy players are coming through to the first team, Mariner has little choice but to "dumb down the game".

denime
07-07-2012, 08:15 AM
It just wasn't working for the FIRST TEAM. The reserves and the academy are still learning the Winter system. The FO has NOT thrown it all away over night, as far as I can see. But, Mariner HAD to start getting results in the short term for the first team, or we would all be VERY pissed off at creating a league record for the most defeats/goals conceded/lowest goals scored...etc etc. In the short term, changing the strategy for the first team, was a very wise idea by Mariner, IMO. If you wanted to keep playing the same way as before, and creating league record lows, that's fine. But I, for one, wasn't satisfied with that at all. I still think the long term goal should be to create tachtically superior players through the academy, and I'm sure Mariner also agree's with that. The way the league and cap space is managed, makes it essential to have a youth system that produces quality players. Mariner, I'm sure, realises the potential of producing great youth players that play technical systems that can take the club forward. But, in the meantime, those players aren't in the first team, and we have people like Dunfield, Emory, Ekcersley, RJ, and most of the reserve team, who just can't cope with a technically skills game! Until the point where the academy players are coming through to the first team, Mariner has little choice but to "dumb down the game".

It is sad when you have to dumb down the game and still pay the players a nice chunk of money,what bugs me,are comments on this board that system that Winter was implementing is to complicated for our "professionals" and you see a 10 years old American kids playing possession game in 343 formation without any problems.
Watch a clinical display of possession in California U11 kids and tell me is it really so complicated that our professionals can not pick it up,I mean pass and move is basic skill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DThjb_XyyoU&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DThjb_XyyoU&feature=player_embedded)

We live in "the moment" and we want it now,while other countries and their clubs take their time to get the"vision" working, we rebuild every year and try to discover worm water all over again and again.this season was fucked before Mariner took over,and to think that he will get us somewhere this or next year is just wishful thinking,we will be and stay mediocre at best.

If we are going to wait until our 1st team has enough academy player in the starting 11 in order to play possession game,you and I will have to watch this dumb down style for another 5-8 years at least.

ManUtd4ever
07-07-2012, 08:33 AM
It is sad when you have to dumb down the game and still pay the players a nice chunk of money,what bugs me,are comments on this board that system that Winter was implementing is to complicated for our "professionals" and you see a 10 years old American kids playing possession game in 343 formation without any problems.
Watch a clinical display of possession in California U11 kids and tell me is it really so complicated that our professionals can not pick it up,I mean pass and move is basic skill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DThjb_XyyoU&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DThjb_XyyoU&feature=player_embedded)

We live in "the moment" and we want it now,while other countries and their clubs take their time to get the"vision" working, we rebuild every year and try to discover worm water all over again and again.this season was fucked before Mariner took over,and to think that he will get us somewhere this or next year is just wishful thinking,we will be and stay mediocre at best.

If we are going to wait until our 1st team has enough academy player in the starting 11 in order to play possession game,you and I will have to watch this dumb down style for another 5-8 years at least.

That's true, but if we can become a playoff club in the interim by playing a more conventional, direct, MLS style of football, isn't that better for us as supporters than having to endure season after season of abject failure while a grand vision is implemented?

Besides, the fact of the matter is that Winter was hired to implement a vision AND produce tangible results within a reasonable timeframe, which is why he was signed to a 3 year contract as opposed to a 5-10 year contract. If his horrendous record in league play had continued for another year and a half, I'm afraid that would have done far more damage to the organization than modifying the tactical approach of the first team.

ManUtd4ever
07-07-2012, 08:57 AM
It doesn't have to be. Mariner's 4-4-2 is boot and run, though. It's very traditional English football, and it's no co-incidence that Mariner's greatest defenders on this board happen to be English.

I missed this post yesterday.

-TFC has demonstrated that they can play long stretches of possession football under Mariner, as was evident in the latter stages of the match against Dallas.

-I can't speak for everyone else who has been objective in their analysis of Mariner, but my views have nothing to do with my ethnic background. I am a second generation Canadian, and my parents are both of Mediterranean descent.

I think it's highly presumptuous on your part to assume that people will form their opinions based on their ethnicity. I'm sure there are also plenty of people on this forum of English descent who have been just as critical of Mariner as you.

denime
07-07-2012, 09:19 AM
That's true, but if we can become a playoff club in the interim by playing a more conventional, direct, MLS style of football, isn't that better for us as supporters than having to endure season after season of abject failure while a grand vision is implemented?

Besides, the fact of the matter is that Winter was hired to implement a vision AND produce tangible results within a reasonable timeframe, which is why he was signed to a 3 year contract as opposed to a 5-10 year contract. If his horrendous record in league play had continued for another year and a half, I'm afraid that would have done far more damage to the organization than modifying the tactical approach of the first team.

That is one BIG IF my friend,and vision was left behind on the day when they hired Mariner.

v00d00daddy
07-07-2012, 09:30 AM
That's true, but if we can become a playoff club in the interim by playing a more conventional, direct, MLS style of football, isn't that better for us as supporters than having to endure season after season of abject failure while a grand vision is implemented?

FIrstly...I don't know if the "hoof ball" we've been playing is an MLS style of football. There are several teams that don't do this anymore.

Secondly, for me it's all about implementing the grand vision because the ceiling (if it's done properly) is a championship. I don't think the style we're playing now has an end result of championship in it. I just don't think playing hoof ball is going to work, over the long haul, against the quality teams in this league. So what's the point?

Just to shut up some supporters? Or is it because the FO is afraid that people will stop coming if they continue with the original philosophy?

Who knows? But I know I'm going to stop going to games if we continue to play the style that Mariner has implemented.


Besides, the fact of the matter is that Winter was hired to implement a vision AND produce tangible results within a reasonable timeframe, which is why he was signed to a 3 year contract as opposed to a 5-10 year contract. If his horrendous record in league play had continued for another year and a half, I'm afraid that would have done far more damage to the organization than modifying the tactical approach of the first team.

What kind of damage? People not renewing seasons tickets?

I had no problem with him being fired. A change was obviously needed. I just can't stand the fact that they PROMOTED a guy from within and, even worse, a guy that is the antithesis of what the team wanted to implement.

Why Mariner was even associated to this club in the first place is beyond me.

And his style (or lack thereof) is going to be the reason that I leave. And I suspect I won't be alone.

And those that stay will be left revelling in mid table mediocrity at best and wondering why TFC can't compete with the leagues best teams.

It's kinda like the England mens national team. They've always been a decent to good side but could never seem to get over the hump. Now...they're even further behind the curve and are realizing that they just don't produce enough skilled players to compete with the biggest nations.

So what's left to do?

Champion the efforts of the lads and assure people there's nothing to worry about? (Ala Hodgson)

or

Start to admit and identify that steps need to be taken to produce better players who can play a better style of play (Ala Rio Ferdinand)

Sounds just like TFC.

Except that TFC made the decision to fix things for the long term....but......to appease people that can't or won't see the forrest for the trees.... they've shit their pants in fear and brought back a mentality that may yield moderate results, but will never help the reach the summit of the mountain.

And that, I believe, is far worse than enduring the growing pains of implementing a system and mentality that will allow them to compete with the best teams in the league and maybe one day, be the best.

Season Seat renewals be damned. LOL

ManUtd4ever
07-07-2012, 09:31 AM
That is one BIG IF my friend,and vision was left behind on the day when they hired Mariner.

As of now, we can't assume that. DeKlerk and Rongen still have significant roles within the organization, and the Academy teams are still playing the 4-3-3.

ManUtd4ever
07-07-2012, 09:42 AM
FIrstly...I don't know if the "hoof ball" we've been playing is an MLS style of football. There are several teams that don't do this anymore.

Secondly, for me it's all about implementing the grand vision because the ceiling (if it's done properly) is a championship. I don't think the style we're playing now has an end result of championship in it. I just don't think playing hoof ball is going to work, over the long haul, against the quality teams in this league. So what's the point?

Just to shut up some supporters? Or is it because the FO is afraid that people will stop coming if they continue with the original philosophy?

Who knows? But I know I'm going to stop going to games if we continue to play the style that Mariner has implemented.



What kind of damage? People not renewing seasons tickets?

I had no problem with him being fired. A change was obviously needed. I just can't stand the fact that they PROMOTED a guy from within and, even worse, a guy that is the antithesis of what the team wanted to implement.

Why Mariner was even associated to this club in the first place is beyond me.

And his style (or lack thereof) is going to be the reason that I leave. And I suspect I won't be alone.

And those that stay will be left revelling in mid table mediocrity at best and wondering why TFC can't compete with the leagues best teams.

It's kinda like the England mens national team. They've always been a decent to good side but could never seem to get over the hump. Now...they're even further behind the curve and are realizing that they just don't produce enough skilled players to compete with the biggest nations.

So what's left to do?

Champion the efforts of the lads and assure people there's nothing to worry about? (Ala Hodgson)

or

Start to admit and identify that steps need to be taken to produce better players who can play a better style of play (Ala Rio Ferdinand)

Sounds just like TFC.

Except that TFC made the decision to fix things for the long term....but......to appease people that can't or won't see the forrest for the trees.... they've shit their pants in fear and brought back a mentality that may yield moderate results, but will never help the reach the summit of the mountain.

And that, I believe, is far worse than enduring the growing pains of implementing a system and mentality that will allow them to compete with the best teams in the league and maybe one day, be the best.

Season Seat renewals be damned. LOL

Why must we assume that it has to be one of two extremes?

I see the recent managerial change for what it is; an attempt to placate the long beleaguered supporters of the club with tangible success in the short term, because our results in league play under Winter were historically abysmal. We'll see if Mariner can deliver.

As for the long term vision, I don't see any evidence to suggest that it has been abandoned within the organization. Perhaps for the first team in the short term, but not throughout the ranks of the Academy.

If you are willing to abandon the club even if they achieve positive results in the immediate future because of a tactical adjustment within the first team, that's your prerogative. I think that after 6 years of failure, most supporters just want a club that can be competitive on a consistent basis and qualify for the playoffs some time this decade, LOL.

v00d00daddy
07-07-2012, 09:45 AM
Why must we assume that it has to be one of two extremes?

I see the recent managerial change for what it is; an attempt to placate the long beleaguered supporters of the club with tangible success in the short term, because our results in league play under Winter were historically abysmal. We'll see if Mariner can deliver.

As for the long term vision, I don't see any evidence to suggest that it has been abandoned within the organization. Perhaps for the first team in the short term, but not throughout the ranks of the Academy.

If you are willing to abandon the club even if they achieve positive results in the immediate future because of a tactical adjustment within the first team, that's your prerogative. I think that after 6 years of failure, most supporters just want a club that can be competitive on a consistent basis and qualify for the playoffs some time this decade, LOL.

When the organisation starts making ON FIELD, short term, and (imo) short sighted decisions to appease the supporters all is lost for me.

Inmates running the asylum.

denime
07-07-2012, 09:48 AM
When the organisation starts making ON FIELD, short term, and (imo) short sighted decisions to appease the supporters all is lost for me.

Inmates running the asylum.

True,it's all about this October ST renewal,next year is to far away for TFC FO to think about.

ManUtd4ever
07-07-2012, 09:55 AM
When the organisation starts making ON FIELD, short term, and (imo) short sighted decisions to appease the supporters all is lost for me.

Inmates running the asylum.

At the end of the day, it's still a business that relies on selling tickets for a competitive on field product. If TFC had stayed the course with Winter and the futility continued for another 1-2 years, this franchise would be in serious trouble, much worse than it already is.

I see no reason why the philosophy can't be implemented gradually over the next few years once the Academy has produced enough tactically adept players to earn several starting positions within the first team. Due to the salary cap restrictions in MLS, it really is the most logical way to implement the vision without enduring years of ineptitude on the pitch.

narduch
07-07-2012, 09:57 AM
Why Mariner was even associated to this club in the first place is beyond me.

The cynical side of me thinks it was a back up in case Winter failed. And that is exactly what happened.

As TFC fans, we are screwed though. The sale of MLSE needs to happen now. The continued delay in the change over could make this team bad for a few more years. Its sad.

v00d00daddy
07-07-2012, 09:57 AM
At the end of the day, it's still a business that relies on selling tickets for a competitive on field product. If TFC had stayed the course with Winter and the futility continued for another 1-2 years, this franchise would be in serious trouble, much worse than it already is.

I see no reason why the philosophy can't be implemented gradually over the next few years once the Academy has produced enough tactically adept players to earn several starting positions within the first team. Due to the salary cap restrictions in MLS, it really is the most logical way to implement the vision without enduring years of ineptitude on the pitch.

They didn't have to stay the course with Winter.

But they should have stayed the course with the style of play.

With a new coach that could get more out of the players.

ManUtd4ever
07-07-2012, 10:10 AM
They didn't have to stay the course with Winter.

But they should have stayed the course with the style of play.

With a new coach that could get more out of the players.

That may be a valid point, if you think the futility was solely the result of a personnel issue with management. I think it was fundamentally a systemic issue; a tactical philosophy that the players on the first team weren't able to execute effectively, even after the roster was overhauled. I believe that the current roster has more than enough talent by MLS standards to be a very competitive club in this league.

Pookie
07-07-2012, 02:58 PM
As for the long term vision, I don't see any evidence to suggest that it has been abandoned within the organization. Perhaps for the first team in the short term, but not throughout the ranks of the Academy.


You and t-boy both touched on this issue and I have to ask, are you convinced that if Mariner wanted to flip the switch and play the 4-3-3 style that the Academy is playing, that he would be able to implement it?

If yes, I'd love to see some kind of objective rationale because I am having trouble seeing how as a player that never played it, as a coach that never coached it and as an executive hired to implement it but opted to push his own anti-4-3-3 agenda, that he would be even considered a short list candidate.

If it is true that he couldn't implement it, then we have a bit of a divide within the organization. The 4-3-3 can never be introduced as long as he is here. Which means either TR and BDK opt to leave and hoof ball reigns as Mariner fills the organization with his people or we have yet another set of growing pains as the 4-3-3 gets "re-implemented" with someone else.

tfcocd
07-07-2012, 05:13 PM
You and t-boy both touched on this issue and I have to ask, are you convinced that if Mariner wanted to flip the switch and play the 4-3-3 style that the Academy is playing, that he would be able to implement it?

If yes, I'd love to see some kind of objective rationale because I am having trouble seeing how as a player that never played it, as a coach that never coached it and as an executive hired to implement it but opted to push his own anti-4-3-3 agenda, that he would be even considered a short list candidate.

If it is true that he couldn't implement it, then we have a bit of a divide within the organization. The 4-3-3 can never be introduced as long as he is here. Which means either TR and BDK opt to leave and hoof ball reigns as Mariner fills the organization with his people or we have yet another set of growing pains as the 4-3-3 gets "re-implemented" with someone else.

I really hope that after being part of an organization that for 18 months has dedicated itself to 4-3-3, so much so that it started 1-9, he is capable of running the lads out there in 4-3-3! Especially when it is still being taught and played throughout the organization.

Maybe it will take 5 years to get there? I hope not but I am not going to give up my tickets over it. I love watching professional soccer and going to the stadium. Looking through the other MLS sides, some of whom are very successful, there are many different formations and very few at 4-3-3. I see a lot of 4-4-2 and 4-5-1 variants (4-1-2-1-2, 4-2-3-1, etc) and not much else. The walk before we run sentiment seems apt. Let's find our way to being a successful MLS side and evolve into a great football club that is technically and tactically gifted without being a league laughing stock while pursuing it.