Rate Mariner: June 2012

[__wowza]

PLEASE READ BEFORE RATING!
(it'll make everything a hell of a lot easier)

Each category gets a specific rating, from 5 (being the highest) to 1 (being the lowest). To calculate the average rating, just add your total up and divide by 5, if it's got a decimal point at the end of it, you can round either up or down based on the simple question "did Winter perform up to your expectations for the month". Afterward, you post your total rating on the poll, from 5 - 1. In addition to that, each game has a link to the official TFC recap in case you need a refresher of what went on. Here's the criteria:

TACTICS
how did you feel about the tactical choices made?
what about his starters? subs? formation?

RESULTS
at the end of the day, how did we do in terms of results? did we tie games we should've lost? lost games we should've won? etc.

EFFICIENCY
how effective was the coach in utilizing the players he has?
did he play some players out of position? did he have a reason to?

COMMUNICATION
how effective was the coach in explaining his outlook and choices in the paper / on torontofc.ca / on TFCtv / in post match interviews?

TRADES & MISC
were the trades made productive or counter-productive?
did he fly off the handle at get a 4 game ban?
was he making eyes at your wife/girlfriend/same-sex partner?


A general guideline: Its how you feel at the moment, not a final assessment. Like a marathon, this is just a snapshot of our support for the month. A low approval rating does not rate him as an overall failure, just like a high approval rating does not mean he's Sir Alex Ferguson. For the sake of context, this is how he / TFC have preformed in June:


LEAGUE PLAY
6 points out of a possible 15
10TH in the East -
19TH out of 19 overall -
GD: +1 (last months -5)

(http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/06/toronto-cant-cope-kc)Sporting KC v Toronto FC (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/06/toronto-cant-cope-kc)
JUNE 16th : LOSS 2-0

Houston Dynamo v Toronto FC (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/06/reds-held-houston-claws-back)
JUNE 20th : TIE 3-3

Toronto FC v New England Rev (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/06/reds-let-revs-back)
JUNE 23rd : TIE 2-2

Montreal Impact v Toronto FC (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/06/reds-ruthless-montreal)
JUNE 27th : WIN 0-3

Toronto FC v New York RB (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/06/toronto-holds-new-york-draw)
JUNE 30th : TIE 1-1


*like always, if there's a category you think i missed please share!

[__wowza]

TACTICS: 3


i'd still like to see more of soolsma.
it seems like he's hit the mark with the morgan/koev crossing combo.
i don't know if it's because we lack depth that he's playing the same back four every game, or if this is going to be his preferred defensive team. the guys look absolutely gassed, and with good reason. how bout putting frings back in the back every now and again?
i'll give him the benefit of the doubt because of the schedule, and the arrests.
the first few games were hard to watch with how much senseless possession we were losing.


RESULTS: 4


again, the schedule had a big part in all of this, but for the most part of the houston and new england, we were defending like chickens with our heads cut off. kocic kept us in the game for those two, so im giving those results to him and not mariner.
we tied a game that felt like a tie, and we tied one that felt like a loss.
it's good that we're picking up points, so that's a +1 attached to any rating im giving him.
the tie against NY was well deserved.


EFFICIENCY: N/A


im abstaining because i dont want to discuss whose job it was to bring in players.
we had a tough schedule, 3 away games in two weeks and 3 players arrested. nuff said.


COMMUNICATION: 4


it's great not to hear "pity" after every interview and "vell, we playyehd gooot"
seems like a mad man on the touchline, old school english coach like other folks have said, he seems to be pretty straight forward and answering questions during interviews without running the team into the ground.


TRADES & MISC: N/A


he looks like someones drunk uncle. im waiting until the transfer window opens.



OVERALL: 4

[ryan]

You need to update yer explanation thinger there.


"did Winter perform up to your expectations for the month"


For the sake of context, this is how he / TFC have preformed in September:

[__wowza]

You need to update yer explanation thinger there.

care to be more specific? :lol:
im not calling him chris cummins am i?

[T-boy]

4 from me.

Good results, even with throwing away a couple of wins. But I can see a real change in the performances over the 5 games.

The team could be playing a little "fancier" football, but I can't compain too much as we've seen more goals and goalmouth action form TFC in these last 5 games as we've seen in a couple of seasons.

The next month is going to be most important, and we will see Mariner make a couple of trades and see what direction and what squad HE wants to build. Right now he's still playing with "Winter's squad" (yes, even though he was part to do with that build up). But now HE has the final say, it will be intersting to see what he does with the squad and trades.

[Whoop]

Just reading Soccernomics while on vacation in Europe and they have a whole section on "Do Managers Matter?" and about managers replacing displaced ones.

TFC is just regressing to the mean.

To paraphrase a typical club earns 1.3 points per match studies have found. And typically clubs sack their manager when they are averaging 1 point per match. Whether a club sacks its manager or not it will regress to the mean.

Let's see how Mariner does over some time...

[DaBandit]

Not sure how some of you are giving out 4 stars to a coach that got 6 out of a possible 15..

[Pookie]

Hope is a strategy ^

[ryan]

care to be more specific? :lol:
im not calling him chris cummins am i?

Sorry, was slow to edit in the quotes there. :)

[T-boy]

Not sure how some of you are giving out 4 stars to a coach that got 6 out of a possible 15..

You have to look at Mariner's first five games as just that...FIRST games. If he is getting 6 out of 15 points in September I won't be giving him 4 stars, I will be giving him less. But for what I've seen as a START to his management, I'm pleased and gave him 4 stars. I scored him as I thought accurate for the position TFC are in, and how he took over mid season with very few traning session, and looking at what he has achieved to date. I didn't score score on 6 points alone, I scored his overall performance.

[__wowza]

Not sure how some of you are giving out 4 stars to a coach that got 6 out of a possible 15..

benefit of the doubt. with the roster the way it is, 3 away games out of 5 games in 2 weeks, and the arrests, etc, i gave him a bump. he's adjusted the roster back to 4-4-2, like i said with winter, i'll give him/the players time to get their heads around his style first.

[Gazza]

Just reading Soccernomics while on vacation in Europe and they have a whole section on "Do Managers Matter?" and about managers replacing displaced ones.

TFC is just regressing to the mean.

To paraphrase a typical club earns 1.3 points per match studies have found. And typically clubs sack their manager when they are averaging 1 point per match. Whether a club sacks its manager or not it will regress to the mean.

Let's see how Mariner does over some time...

Great read. Hope you're enjoying it. I'm a stats/soccer guy so it was like porn to me.

[jabbronies]

I gave him a 3. A neutral score IMO

At the end of the day I'm not really sure how much of our success is due to him or is it just the players coming around. Not like we weren't getting chances to score before, we just couldn't finish. We also have a healthy Torsten and Danny, both of who's contributions are a large part of our current success in form. But our backline is still conceding bad goals. Twice we've lost points in the final minutes of play. We play horrendous during that loss to Sporting KC, and for large portions of the game on Saturday we were flat and did absolutely nothing going forward. At the end of the day the only thing that has changed is that we are finishing our chances.

1-1-3 is not a horrible record for us considering the season we are having and since he was the skipper for those games, he should get some credit for the results.

[__wowza]

You need to update yer explanation thinger there.

wanna know the worst part? i got all the stuff from march's "rate winter thread" :facepalm:

[Initial B]

I rate him a two. The points are an improvement, but not great. Mismanaged the Plata situation so that he's pretty much gone. Don't trust the news propoganda coming from the various media sources. I'm still not convinced that Winter wouldn't have got the same results.

[jloome]

TFC is just regressing to the mean.
...

Under Winter we were so far below the mean, we're progressing to the mean.

Interesting stats but I find this one more interesting:
Five games before Mariner, goal differential -5
Five games with Mariner, goal differential +1

Add in the fact that we led three of those five games and there's no doubt to me he's at least a three and really probably a four for his first month, given what he inherited.

I'd also note the players seem to agree: http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/07/04/toronto-fc-players-credit-mariner-rare-unbeaten-streak

[T-boy]

I rate him a two. The points are an improvement, but not great. Mismanaged the Plata situation so that he's pretty much gone. Don't trust the news propoganda coming from the various media sources. I'm still not convinced that Winter wouldn't have got the same results.

This is something we will never know. But in the end of the day, head coaches/managers are judged on results. Winter's results simply weren't good enough in the time he had. And he had LOTS of time, much longer than most managers would get in the majority of leagues in the world. I can't name another manager in any other league that has gone 9 games without a point and kept their job, and certainly not at the start of a season? However, since Mariner has taken charge, the results have been far improved.

We have to wait and see if Mariner's charge will continue the improving trend, but based on THIS month alone, its a good start.

We can argue whether Winter would have changed things around as quickly as Mariner has over the last month, all day. But we can only judge Winter on the time he was here, not in the time "he could have been here and MIGHT have got results". Thinking that he "might" have got results just isn't good enough in professional football, unfortunately.

[Couchy81]

I don't see how you can justify this being a subjective rating T-boy. If you would give him 3 stars in September for an identical job as June, you should be giving him 3 stars now. I'm all for giving new players and new managers time to adjust, but don't pretty up the numbers because he's the new guy.

[Oldtimer]

TACTICS
Antiquated longball strategy resulted in 1 win in 5. Very standard formation, defensive structure, triangle play, etc. Any NCAA player knows this stuff. Substitutions and selection suspect at times. 2/5

RESULTS
It shows that MLS still isn't as good as we'd like that this strategy worked, although many MLS coaches had much better records in June. It's not good enough to make the playoffs, but give an extra +1 because he's new at this and maybe his record will improve. 3/5

EFFICIENCY
Dunfield is a poor choice any time, and choosing a formation (supposedly to fit the players) that (1) marginalizes Plata (RPB's player of the year, last year) (2) minimizes Eck's strengths and plays him out of position is not too impressive. Some of the substitutions suspect, as above. 2/5

COMMUNICATION
Here he's quite good. I could barely understand Winter, or JC for that matter. He's plain-spoken and not a snake like Mo. 4/5

TRADES & MISC
The Nesta debacle makes me give him 0/5.

Average 2.2, rounded down to 2.

[T-boy]

Did we EVER have a chance of singing Nesta?! I don't think it was ever on the cards, was it? The fact that he was at the Montreal game just goes to prove that montreal were the team who were going to sign him, never TFC.

[Fort York Redcoat]

COMMUNICATION
Here he's quite good. I could barely understand Winter, or JC for that matter. He's plain-spoken and not a snake like Mo. 4/5

TRADES & MISC
The Nesta debacle makes me give him 0/5.

Average 2.2, rounded down to 2.


Did we EVER have a chance of singing Nesta?! I don't think it was ever on the cards, was it? The fact that he was at the Montreal game just goes to prove that montreal were the team who were going to sign him, never TFC.

I think it more apt to challenge the communication than the trade. Since we don't know whether we were seriously in the running for this serious addition to our problem area that would be a lack of communication. Same overall result though. Give him a one for the Nesta rumour surfacing but take a away a point because the support is left unsure if management really tried.

[Phil]

I think a 3 or a 2....

Things that kill it for me are the late collapses that conceeded goals and the handling of Plata plus the player escapades in Houston.

Longball and Anarchy are some crazy foundations. I do have some belief that he can turn it around and get a better system in place soon. Hopefully some team shakeup and additions will make this easier.

I voted 3 because of destroying Montreal :D

[Whoop]

Great read. Hope you're enjoying it. I'm a stats/soccer guy so it was like porn to me.

It's awesome.

In two days... while on vacation... I read 3/4 of it. Relating a lot of it to my hockey job.

[CoachGT]

Great book! I could immediately see links to hockey Whoop.

As for ratings, I hold to not making any judgement, even preliminary, until at least mid-July.

[DaBandit]

You have to look at Mariner's first five games as just that...FIRST games. If he is getting 6 out of 15 points in September I won't be giving him 4 stars, I will be giving him less. But for what I've seen as a START to his management, I'm pleased and gave him 4 stars. I scored him as I thought accurate for the position TFC are in, and how he took over mid season with very few traning session, and looking at what he has achieved to date. I didn't score score on 6 points alone, I scored his overall performance.

I think you being way to easy on him.. His tactics, puzzling substitutions and record give him no better than 2 out of 5, MAYBE a 3..

[DaBandit]

TACTICS
Antiquated longball strategy resulted in 1 win in 5. Very standard formation, defensive structure, triangle play, etc. Any NCAA player knows this stuff. Substitutions and selection suspect at times. 2/5

RESULTS
It shows that MLS still isn't as good as we'd like that this strategy worked, although many MLS coaches had much better records in June. It's not good enough to make the playoffs, but give an extra +1 because he's new at this and maybe his record will improve. 3/5

EFFICIENCY
Dunfield is a poor choice any time, and choosing a formation (supposedly to fit the players) that (1) marginalizes Plata (RPB's player of the year, last year) (2) minimizes Eck's strengths and plays him out of position is not too impressive. Some of the substitutions suspect, as above. 2/5

COMMUNICATION
Here he's quite good. I could barely understand Winter, or JC for that matter. He's plain-spoken and not a snake like Mo. 4/5

TRADES & MISC
The Nesta debacle makes me give him 0/5.

Average 2.2, rounded down to 2.

IMHO this is a very accurate assessment..

[Stouffville_RPB]

2 - I no longer have patience for letting the team mesh and get used to tactics (and going back to a simple 4-4-2 just getting the ball to the CFs shouldn't be too hard for pros to pick up) it's about results.

The points we have picked up have been in large to Koevermans finally being fit and on form, TFC are still amateur level at the back. Having two leads vanish and turn to draws in the 2nd half isn't progress, TFC have been able to drop points all their existence. Against New York the defense seemed out to lunch on more than 1 occasion so improving the defense has not happened.

As far as personel, the Plata and Nesta situations do not do him any favors.

Overall this is still the same team, poor defending, at times dangerous up front, comical in the personel department. Players (see Koevermans) are just scoring on their chances (that were always there). The manager has had little to no effect.

[brad]

2. Supposed to be some small tweaks according to the man himself, do I don't see that needing time

Results are still bad, but as jloome (I think ) mentioned things were so bad under Winter that bad under Mariner looks better.

A bunch of our key stats are down, but Danny's making us look better than we are. Late collapses remind me of Preki when we'd hoof the ball out near the end of matches and suffer waves of attack before breaking.

Communication is laughable - based on the Plata situation. Handle it behind closed doors and don't announce that you have no idea what your players are doing

Jury is out on Nesta. They have a DP slot now and we don't and that is huge. Could be as simple as that. I'm not judging that one though until I see how Nesta does and if we bolster our backline

[TFCRegina]

I gave him a 3. Doing a far better job of grinding out points than Winter.

[denime]

Did we EVER have a chance of singing Nesta?! I don't think it was ever on the cards, was it? The fact that he was at the Montreal game just goes to prove that montreal were the team who were going to sign him, never TFC.

Nesta was at BMO last Saturday too,so we can say yes, we did have a chance to sign Nesta.

Gave Mariner 3 because Montreal game,overall 2 is more realistic for this month.

I'm waiting for Sunday game to compare Winter's last months and 3-2-2 record with Mariner's 1st full month,as for now 1-1-4 does not looks like we have improved a lot, if at all since Mariner took over.

[Stouffville_RPB]

I'm waiting for Sunday game to compare Winter's last months and 3-2-2 record with Mariner's 1st full month,as for now 1-1-4 does not looks like we have improved a lot, if at all since Mariner took over.

Exactly. Not losing is nice but you don't get anywhere in football with ties (unless you are Juventus). I'll take the 2 loses to have the 3 wins instead of the 4 draws and 1 win anytime.

[jabbronies]

Under Winter we were so far below the mean, we're progressing to the mean.

Interesting stats but I find this one more interesting:
Five games before Mariner, goal differential -5
Five games with Mariner, goal differential +1

Add in the fact that we led three of those five games and there's no doubt to me he's at least a three and really probably a four for his first month, given what he inherited.

I'd also note the players seem to agree: http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/07/04/toronto-fc-players-credit-mariner-rare-unbeaten-streak

Wait.. what?
I guess you are not counting NCC? Why not? The picture is a lot different with those games included.
We are a +2 team five games before Mariner with half the amount of goals scored against us.

Also why only 5 games out? That negates the 2-0 loss to SKC - which would put us in the negatives in the Mariner era. Why not use the whole Mariner existance to get a picture of how things are progressing/staying the same?

[ManUtd4ever]

TFC's achilles heel since it's inception as a franchise has been achieving results in league play, and that's where the focus should be. If we were basing our opinions on the NCC, TFC would be a model franchise.

[T-boy]

Wait.. what?
I guess you are not counting NCC? Why not? The picture is a lot different with those games included.
We are a +2 team five games before Mariner with half the amount of goals scored against us.

Also why only 5 games out? That negates the 2-0 loss to SKC - which would put us in the negatives in the Mariner era. Why not use the whole Mariner existance to get a picture of how things are progressing/staying the same?

I don't think we should count cup matches, personally. Cup games are different from league games. Players can motivate themselves for that "big occassion" game. It was the league games, where players needed lifting and motivating and pushing in the right direction, where Winter had clear problems. If you compare Mariner's LEAGUE record with Winter's LEAGUE record, you get a more accurate comparison at this stage, IMO.

[T-boy]

Exactly. Not losing is nice but you don't get anywhere in football with ties (unless you are Juventus). I'll take the 2 loses to have the 3 wins instead of the 4 draws and 1 win anytime.

So you'd take winning the FA Cup while being relegated from the Premiership? If you look it that way, you can only compare league to league, and cup to cup games.

[denime]

I don't think we should count cup matches, personally. Cup games are different from league games. Players can motivate themselves for that "big occassion" game. It was the league games, where players needed lifting and motivating and pushing in the right direction, where Winter had clear problems. If you compare Mariner's LEAGUE record with Winter's LEAGUE record, you get a more accurate comparison at this stage, IMO.

competitive game is competitive game,period.

and considering that MLS does not have relegation I would prefer TFC winning CCL over making MLS Playoffs.

[Detroit_TFC]

3 from me. Not going to say return in Danny K's form is coincidence, he is one of a number of players to respond well to the changes (Emory, Avila maybe, even Dunfield). The play seems more natural to me, not like players trying to remember what they were told to do. On the bad side, the front office situation seems to get worse and worse. The Plata stuff is dire. I anticipate mediocre results (ie, much better than before) but if FO issues continue on this trajectory, I shudder to think where things will be in September.

[ManUtd4ever]

competitive game is competitive game,period.

and considering that MLS does not have relegation I would prefer TFC winning CCL over making MLS Playoffs.

Well if that's going to be the barometer to gauge success, TFC has been heading in the right direction the last few years by advancing further in the CCL with every passing year.

I'm afraid it's not a very realistic assessment though. Let's face it, this franchise will live or die by it's results in MLS, because that's what is most important to the fan base at large.

[T-boy]

competitive game is competitive game,period.

and considering that MLS does not have relegation I would prefer TFC winning CCL over making MLS Playoffs.

Any cup game in any league is approached differently to league games. I disagree that a competative game is the same no matter what the game. one off games (or return leg games) are different animals to league games. Player motivation is very different for both sets of games. It's like comparing a 20 over cricket game to a 5 day test match, or comparing a 3 round olympic boxing fight against a ten round fight, you really can't compare both. The approach is very different to league and cup football games.

[jabbronies]

competitive game is competitive game,period.

and considering that MLS does not have relegation I would prefer TFC winning CCL over making MLS Playoffs.

This is it right here.
Player/Team development doesn't stop for Cup games. If those were friendlies, than you have a point to ignore them, but they are competitive games that the first team were involved in and played with 100% intensity.

The stats are not pointing to much change in the 6-6 game comparison between Winter and Mariner. The same BS problems we had before are still here.

The only difference is DannyK is putting them between the posts instead of hitting them. You can't give Mariner credit for that - that is a player only thing. Changing the system here or there doesn't put the ball 4 inches to the left for a goal instead of 4 inches to the right and hit the post. You put Danny K on the injured list like he was at the start of the season and we are loosing most of those past 6 games an we are still concede goals early and late in the games.

[T-boy]

We need to have this conversation after Mariner has 64 games and we can compare his record with Winter's over his 64 games. I'd bet that Mariner has a hell of a lot better record than Winter had! I guess we shall see, but we need to go back to this in another 59 games and see what the difference is between the two coaches!

[Ageroo]

Any cup game in any league is approached differently to league games. I disagree that a competative game is the same no matter what the game. one off games (or return leg games) are different animals to league games. Player motivation is very different for both sets of games. It's like comparing a 20 over cricket game to a 5 day test match, or comparing a 3 round olympic boxing fight against a ten round fight, you really can't compare both. The approach is very different to league and cup football games.

Your analogies are flawed.......a soccer match is always 90 minutes....Cup or League. :) just saying......

[ryan]

if you tilt your head to the side, the poll kind of looks like it's giving us the middle finger.

[ManUtd4ever]

if you tilt your head to the side, the poll kind of looks like it's giving us the middle finger.

Haha. Considering the unjustified flack Mariner has been taking, it seems rather appropriate. g:D

[cochrdoc]

I think the boys like playing for him except Plata.Our goal differential is alot better and we are competing which we didn`t do at the beginning of the season.Now let`s sign a half dozen solid players and get rid of the dead weight and see what we can do.And for all those that are being so critical,go cheer for Montreal.They need alittle support as the Reds are going to move ahead of them soon as they are sliding.I think Mariner deserves a 5 with all the energy the old geezer has on the sideline.Now if only his players can do the same

[bigredone]

The psychological effect is not weighted here and may be more of a factor. We cannot give Mariner points for this, but just having someone different may have created a different (non-negative) feeling in the locker room. If, big if, Winter remained the slope may have turned into a free fall. Anything is better than that. A seemingly lost season under Winter resulted in more lost regular season games due to no motivation. The CCL victories were won due to players self motivation, IMO, to not be the stink of MLS. Change is good even though the frequency of the change is troubling. Let us focus on the former.

By the way, why does it seem no one enjoys Mariners acrobatics on the pitch?

[T-boy]

Your analogies are flawed.......a soccer match is always 90 minutes....Cup or League. :) just saying......

I don't think its flawed at all! Cup matches and league matches are ALWAYS approached differently! How can you approach a league game the same as a one off cup game where you win or lose the whole tournament on one game?! Plus, you are obviously wrong - cup games can be long than 90 minutes! And 2 leg cup games are definitely longer than 90 minutes! :p The first leg of a cup game is approached in a very different way to a one off cup game. A team has to stiffle the opposition in the first leg, try and get a one goal advantage or an away goal.

I don't understand why nobody else is seeing it that way? I thought it was common knowledge in football that cup games, two leg cup games, and league games are all very different. Yes, "essentially" they are all 90 minute games, but as they lead to different outcomes, then they are approached differently. Players/coaches/managers approach league and cup games at a very different way, always, in any league/country in the world!

[denime]

I don't think its flawed at all! Cup matches and league matches are ALWAYS approached differently! How can you approach a league game the same as a one off cup game where you win or lose the whole tournament on one game?! Plus, you are obviously wrong - cup games can be long than 90 minutes! And 2 leg cup games are definitely longer than 90 minutes! :p The first leg of a cup game is approached in a very different way to a one off cup game. A team has to stiffle the opposition in the first leg, try and get a one goal advantage or an away goal.

I don't understand why nobody else is seeing it that way? I thought it was common knowledge in football that cup games, two leg cup games, and league games are all very different. Yes, "essentially" they are all 90 minute games, but as they lead to different outcomes, then they are approached differently. Players/coaches/managers approach league and cup games at a very different way, always, in any league/country in the world!

League and cup games are competitive,you can approach it however you want(to suit your cause) at the end it is a competitive game and it counts.

[v00d00daddy]

I don't think its flawed at all! Cup matches and league matches are ALWAYS approached differently! How can you approach a league game the same as a one off cup game where you win or lose the whole tournament on one game?! Plus, you are obviously wrong - cup games can be long than 90 minutes! And 2 leg cup games are definitely longer than 90 minutes! :p The first leg of a cup game is approached in a very different way to a one off cup game. A team has to stiffle the opposition in the first leg, try and get a one goal advantage or an away goal.

I don't understand why nobody else is seeing it that way? I thought it was common knowledge in football that cup games, two leg cup games, and league games are all very different. Yes, "essentially" they are all 90 minute games, but as they lead to different outcomes, then they are approached differently. Players/coaches/managers approach league and cup games at a very different way, always, in any league/country in the world!

Yes...they're different games but not different at all when evaluating a coach. A coach has to do a good job in all games. It's pretty simple logic that you're choosing to ignore because you hated Winter and love Mariner. LOL

[T-boy]

Yes...they're different games but not different at all when evaluating a coach. A coach has to do a good job in all games. It's pretty simple logic that you're choosing to ignore because you hated Winter and love Mariner. LOL

So this question is - why was Winter good at coaching a cup team, and horrible at coaching a league team? If there is "no difference" between the two - how come his results were so opposite in each competition?

I hated Winter at the end, for sure. That's no secret! But I liked him to start with! I like Mariner now as he's saying things I like to hear, and his results are favorable. We shall see if that lasts, though!

[denime]

So this question is - why was Winter good at coaching a cup team, and horrible at coaching a league team? If there is "no difference" between the two - how come his results were so opposite in each competition?

I hated Winter at the end, for sure. That's no secret! But I liked him to start with! I like Mariner now as he's saying things I like to hear, and his results are favorable. We shall see if that lasts, though!

TFC under Winter in May 3-2-2 ; 7 games over 24 days

TFC under Mariner in June/July 1-1-4 ; after Phily game that is 7 games over 22 days and even if we win vs Phily,Mariner is one win short comparing to TFC under Winter in May,now we can agree to disagree who turn the corner with TFC in 2012 as much as we want,3-2-2 is better than 2*-1-4 (* if we win next game)

,so no more excuses how schedule is really crowded in June/July,TFC had busy April ,Mariner had two week off to work with relaxed players.

[T-boy]

TFC under Winter in May 3-2-2 ; 7 games over 24 days

TFC under Mariner in June/July 1-1-4 ; after Phily game that is 7 games over 22 days and even if we win vs Phily,Mariner is one win short comparing to TFC under Winter in May,now we can agree to disagree who turn the corner with TFC in 2012 as much as we want,3-2-2 is better than 2*-1-4 (* if we win next game)

,so no more excuses how schedule is really crowded in June/July,TFC had busy April ,Mariner had two week off to work with relaxed players.

The stats are correct. But you also have to answer the question about the league Vs cup games at the same time. Why couldn't Winter get results in the league?

Stats only tell half the story of all this really!

[ryan]

The Kick Off article just popped up on MLS website..

Title: Desperation Point
Subtitle: Winless in nine straight, Sounders unconcerned with style of play.



I guess I missed the one from a short while back, I'd guess it's sub title was: Toronto, winless in nine straight, overhauls the fucking universe. :D

[denime]

The Kick Off article just popped up on MLS website..

Title: Desperation Point
Subtitle: Winless in nine straight, Sounders unconcerned with style of play.



I guess I missed the one from a short while back, I'd guess it's sub title was: Toronto, winless in nine straight, overhauls the fucking universe. :D

That shows the difference between morons in TFC FO and soccer educated people in Seattle FO.

[Pookie]

Hey here's a fun stat.

Mariner needs 3 wins in the next 4 games to simply equal Preki's 2010 first 10 game record of 5-4-1

[Oldtimer]

Hey here's a fun stat.

Mariner needs 3 wins in the next 4 games to simply equal Preki's 2010 first 10 game record of 5-4-1

That's a really interesting stat. I was actually wondering how TFC under Mariner compares to the last coach who had them playing ugly football.... and it's no question that Mariner's squad is more talented overall than Preki's.

[ryan]

That shows the difference between morons in TFC FO and soccer educated people in Seattle FO.

To make matters worse (there's some strong parallels here), their only true success? The bloody USOC! Where Seattle is in great shape to win their....FOURTH in a row!

While they've had stronger MLS regular season campaigns than us, they've won the same amount of playoffs rounds as us, ZERO. 3 straight one and done (only winning 1 of the 6 legs played).


http://th827.photobucket.com/albums/zz192/denistephenson/smileys/smiley%20emotions/th_smiley_emoticons_selbstmord.gif

[T-boy]

Ugly football is judged in the eye of the beholder. I'm personally finding Mariner's style much more attractive than Winter's!

[T-boy]

To make matters worse (there's some strong parallels here), their only true success? The bloody USOC! Where Seattle is in great shape to win their....FOURTH in a row!

While they've had stronger MLS regular season campaigns than us, they've won the same amount of playoffs rounds as us, ZERO. 3 straight one and done (only winning 1 of the 6 legs played).


http://th827.photobucket.com/albums/zz192/denistephenson/smileys/smiley emotions/th_smiley_emoticons_selbstmord.gif

At least they've made the play-offs!

[narduch]

I gave Mariner a 2.

Results wise I think 2.5/5 is fair.

But I lowered the mark based on how the Plata situation was handled.

[bigredone]

At least they've made the play-offs!

It comes with GOALS!!

sorry T-boy, this was to your "ugly football" quote.

[tiberius]

To make matters worse (there's some strong parallels here), their only true success? The bloody USOC! Where Seattle is in great shape to win their....FOURTH in a row!

While they've had stronger MLS regular season campaigns than us, they've won the same amount of playoffs rounds as us, ZERO. 3 straight one and done (only winning 1 of the 6 legs played).

http://th827.photobucket.com/albums/zz192/denistephenson/smileys/smiley%20emotions/th_smiley_emoticons_selbstmord.gif

Can someone explain what this thing called "playoffs" is - I've never experienced them before?

I gave Mariner a two - he has a way to go yet, in my books. Having Brennan shake a cardboard cutout of Sir Alex up and down the sidelines would have been enough to produce the same results that we have seen since Mariner arrived. Almost any change away from Winter was bound to produce improvement. If more improvement is seen in the next 6 weeks or so, Mariner will have me onside.

[T-boy]

Can someone explain what this thing called "playoffs" is - I've never experienced them before?

I gave Mariner a two - he has a way to go yet, in my books. Having Brennan shake a cardboard cutout of Sir Alex up and down the sidelines would have been enough to produce the same results that we have seen since Mariner arrived. Almost any change away from Winter was bound to produce improvement. If more improvement is seen in the next 6 weeks or so, Mariner will have me onside.

Great assessment IMO.

[Shakes McQueen]

Can someone explain what this thing called "playoffs" is - I've never experienced them before?

I gave Mariner a two - he has a way to go yet, in my books. Having Brennan shake a cardboard cutout of Sir Alex up and down the sidelines would have been enough to produce the same results that we have seen since Mariner arrived. Almost any change away from Winter was bound to produce improvement. If more improvement is seen in the next 6 weeks or so, Mariner will have me onside.

I only gave the man a three out of five, and I still think this is ridiculously unfair to him. While your cardboard cutout line sounds amusing, it's not based in any sort of evidence-based reality. As is the idea that Winter was so bad, that literally ANYONE ELSE could have propelled the team from 1-9 to now being several games in row unbeaten. You just pulled that assertion from thin air.

There's no doubt that we have a way to go, and draws need to become wins for me to take Mariner seriously as any sort of longer term solution at manager. I also have some serious questions about his in-game tactics, and his extremely direct system - but give the man credit where it's clearly due.

- Scott

[tiberius]

I only gave the man a three out of five, and I still think this is ridiculously unfair to him. While your cardboard cutout line sounds amusing, it's not based in any sort of evidence-based reality. As is the idea that Winter was so bad, that literally ANYONE ELSE could have propelled the team from 1-9 to now being several games in row unbeaten. You just pulled that assertion from thin air.

There's no doubt that we have a way to go, and draws need to become wins for me to take Mariner seriously as any sort of longer term solution at manager. I also have some serious questions about his in-game tactics, and his extremely direct system - but give the man credit where it's clearly due.

- Scott

What has caused the upswing in the team's trajectory? The law of averages? Danny finding his misplaced rabbit's foot? Hooker party in Houston? Sunspots? Roster health, fitness and gelling? Hot weather? A change of coach, any coach? A change to Mariner specifically? How about Brennan on the sidelines? To give Mariner much credit yet, is a little rich...

Here is the scenario in the locker room, on the day Winter got turfed....

Mariner: Well boys, Aaron has been sent to Davy Jones' Locker today and I'm the new coach. We've had a hell of a rough patch, and I know everyone has been giving it a 110%, but something has to change. Lets go round the room once to get everyone's thoughts on how we turn the ship around... Richard, lets start with you...

Ecks: Well coach, I know it is just crazy talk, but I actually think that our formation and strategy is killing us.

Mariner: Richard, you have to be more specific - I don't want a list of problems, I want solutions!

Ecks: Well... err... where I come from we tend to use the 4-4-2, and ummm.....

Mariner: spit it out Eckersley!

Ecks: Well... if we get some pressure on the back line we boot the effin ball way up the field rather than fiddle with an extra pass or two that might give the other team a chance....

Mariner: That is bloody genius Richard! In-fucking-credible idea! Well mates, what do you think? Should we give Dicky's brilliant idea a chance?

(A round of aye's go round the locker room...)


I would be the first to say that Mariner could be what has primarily propelled the team from the worst team in the world to the current state of mildly under-performing mediocracy. That being said, the ball boy could have led the locker room discussion mentioned above. Are we seeing the classic dead cat bounce or is Mariner an evil soccer genius? No way to tell for sure yet. I will be the last one to let the Front Office and Paul Mariner off the hook just because of one win and a couple of ties... The sickness in this franchise has nothing to do with the players on the field and Paul Mariner has been a political "player" in the thick of it, for 18 months - his survival and promotion in the MLSE environment almost seals the deal that he is part of the problem, not the solution. To be fair tho, I think we will just have to wait to see if he is Jesus Christ or Beelzebub...

[Fort York Redcoat]

^I feel the need to point out the recent success rate in goal scoring has more to do with Donkey Kong's fitness, not luck. This present contribution of his was the expectation.

[ManUtd4ever]

Koevermans was a goal scoring machine last season under Winter as well. He may or may not be more comfortable in a two striker formation, but in my mind, Koevs is not the sole reason for TFC's string of decent results lately.

The main difference between Winter's results and Mariner's results has been the team's defensive play, and subsequently, their goal differential. Assuming that TFC's offensive output would have been comparable under Winter with Koevermans rounding into form, that doesn't mean that the results would have been similar. TFC leaked goals like a sieve under Winter's tutelage, even when they played at their best during his tenure.

Mariner has taken a raw backline that has been decimated with injuries and found a way to lead the team to a positive goal differential after his first 6 games at the helm. Since the two blown leads against Houston and New England, TFC has played very responsible defensively, and the positive results have ensued. For that reason, Mariner absolutely deserves credit where credit is due.

[tiberius]

Koevermans was a goal scoring machine last season under Winter as well. He may or may not be more comfortable in a two striker formation, but in my mind, Koevs is not the sole reason for TFC's string of decent results lately.

The main difference between Winter's results and Mariner's results has been the team's defensive play, and subsequently, their goal differential. Assuming that TFC's offensive output would have been comparable under Winter with Koevermans rounding into form, that doesn't mean that the results would have been similar. TFC leaked goals like a sieve under Winter's tutelage, even when they played at their best during his tenure.

Mariner has taken a raw backline that has been decimated with injuries and found a way to lead the team to a positive goal differential after his first 6 games at the helm. Since the two blown leads against Houston and New England, TFC has played very responsible defensively, and the positive results have ensued. For that reason, Mariner absolutely deserves credit where credit is due.

Don't you think that the main difference has been that we have scored early and often to take the pressure off of the defenders? Our offence has got us out in front or responded very quickly when we have got behind - this has made life much easier for the defenders... In the past five games our defenders have only had to defend while being behind for about 30 minutes. In both games where the other team took the lead, Koevermans responded 2 minutes later and 25 minutes later, respectively. At this point it has been Danny K. all the way! We will have to see how Mariner's "new" midfield + defenders make out in the long haul with long stretches of sustained pressure when tied 0-0 or behind. So far, so good, but overall that back line has had it easy recently - perhaps our offence can keep it that way! I will give Mariner his due in a couple of months, if the team can keep up the momentum and changes some of those ties to wins! In the meantime Donkey Kong rocks!

KC 2-0 - loss
Houston - Hall gets us out front at 13 minute, Kov bags two more before halftime
New England - Kov pots one at the 4th minute
Montreal - tied 0-0 until Frings puts us ahead at the 52nd minute
NY - Kov pots one at the 6th minute to tie us up
Dallas - kov ties us up at 1-1 at the 30th minute mark

[ForeverTFC]

5 votes for 5 star? I didn't know Kurt Larson was a RPB, or that he has the ability to cast 5 votes!

I demand the same voting rights.

[ryan]

5 votes for 5 star? I didn't know Kurt Larson was a RPB, or that he has the ability to cast 5 votes!

I demand the same voting rights.



Banjax (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/member.php?11737-Banjax),
cochrdoc (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/member.php?15588-cochrdoc),
Cristiano14 (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/member.php?1138-Cristiano14),
Technorgasm (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/member.php?215-Technorgasm),
tfc2007 (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/member.php?1166-tfc2007)

[TOBOR !]

didn't know where else to post this :

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/V7B1oYqGW1s/0.jpg

[jloome]

Fucker just released Soolsma. That's pretty much it for me. He just dipped from a three to a one.

[Section 117]

I hate Paul mariner he is a fucking clown, he acts like a clown on the side lines. Zero clue on how to actually manage this club or any club for that manner. He is stuck in the eighties with this hoof ball that he plays. He is by far the worst manager ever and I rate him worse than Preki.

He is slowly clearing out winter's signings first plata, now Soolsma. You guys are all sheep if you believe in this clown. He is the second coming of Mo trust me. He already shot done Nesta (I guess cause he is not English as there is no reason why he don't need him). I hate to say this, but I hope TFC loses every game so this sorry piece of shit gets fired

[Azerban]

I hate Paul mariner he is a fucking clown, he acts like a clown on the side lines. Zero clue on how to actually manage this club or any club for that manner. He is stuck in the eighties with this hoof ball that he plays. He is by far the worst manager ever and I rate him worse than Preki.

He is slowly clearing out winter's signings first plata, now Soolsma. You guys are all sheep if you believe in this clown. He is the second coming of Mo trust me. He already shot done Nesta (I guess cause he is not English as there is no reason why he don't need him). I hate to say this, but I hope TFC loses every game so this sorry piece of shit gets fired

a thousand sunglasses fall from above frame, all landing at precisely the right place on mariners face.



also before the game, we had rated mariner for june worse than we had rated winter for march. very interesting.

[Pookie]

also before the game, we had rated mariner for june worse than we had rated winter for march. very interesting.

Why is that interesting?

While MLS play was obviously not great @ 0-3-0, the focus was CCL and the Reds drew LA @ Rogers 2-2, went to LA and beat them 2-1 and had just drawn Santos 1-1 at home. The return leg at Santos wasn't until April.

I'd say that was worthy of a higher rating.

[DaBandit]

Fucker just released Soolsma. That's pretty much it for me. He just dipped from a three to a one.

You actually gave him a four not a three.. Lol

[T-boy]

I hate Paul mariner he is a fucking clown, he acts like a clown on the side lines. Zero clue on how to actually manage this club or any club for that manner. He is stuck in the eighties with this hoof ball that he plays. He is by far the worst manager ever and I rate him worse than Preki.

He is slowly clearing out winter's signings first plata, now Soolsma. You guys are all sheep if you believe in this clown. He is the second coming of Mo trust me. He already shot done Nesta (I guess cause he is not English as there is no reason why he don't need him). I hate to say this, but I hope TFC loses every game so this sorry piece of shit gets fired

you didn't enjoy tonight's match very much, then, did you?! :p

[tiberius]

you didn't enjoy tonight's match very much, then, did you?! :p

Blissfully think what you want - Mariner is a fucking idiot moving Plata and Soolsma out - and this is not the end of it... This team is on a fast train to nowhere. Where the hell is the next stop? I want to get off.... you are the only one in the whole fucking galaxy who thinks all is well with this team - carry on T-boi in your dream world... this franchise is going down... nowhere to go but down... down... down... enjoy your $350 seats all by yourself - I hope you enjoy the silence and stench of watching and smelling the worst fucking team in the world - I get more enjoyment from my daughter's rec league games - they play a fuckin better game too... Exciting game tonight?? -bullshit - last game of first season was exciting - this is Anselmi bullcrap - I will not swallow. You live in some fouth dimension dreamworld. What is going on with this team is enough to make me barf all over my keyboard. http://th231.photobucket.com/albums/ee81/DynV/emoticons/th_vomit-boy01-vomit-puke-sick-smiley-emoticon-000652-large.gif
:facepalm::picard::violin::deadhorse::banghead:

[tiberius]

you didn't enjoy tonight's match very much, then, did you?! :p

Back to thread topic - Paul Mariner is a ZERO COACH - ZERO, ZERO, ZERO - I originally gave him a "2" in the poll, based on the benefit of the doubt - what an idiot I was - this guy is a ZERO - tie him to Tom Anselmi, add a couple of cinder blocks and send the two of them to Davey Jones locker. This team and Front Office crew are so far beyond redemption, it is beyond words.

[denime]

you didn't enjoy tonight's match very much, then, did you?! :p

Stay on topic and stop trolling.

[Pookie]

I forgot about this thread when I went on a Future v Past rant in the post game thread. I'll repost here where it is more appropriate:

The issue isn't Mariner v Winter. It's Future v Past. Consider this:

- we play in the United States Development League

- the United States Development League feeds the United States Men's National Program

- the United States Men's National Program has decided that under Jurgen Klinsmann they will adopt a 4-3-3, attacking style of football

- therefore, the United States Development Program which works in partnership with the United States Development League (or Major League Soccer as you might know it) will have each and every Academy producing technically sound, 4-3-3 capable players

- Teams are making the jump to play 4-3-3 football. One team, SKC, after a few years of pain, leads the Eastern table

- attacking football kicks the ass of traditional football time and time again



We too had advice from Klinsmann. We thought about 4-3-3 football. We brought in Ajax experienced football men to implement it.

- but we also kept cushy jobs for former friends, allies and CSA friendly types.

- it was a bit of mess. Who was signing who? Words put in people's ears. You know, the same infighting that Anselmi has allowed to fester forever

- MLSE wasn't happy with short term results. So they wanted to make a change

- Did they seek out a replacement 4-3-3 minded individual? No

- They went back to an old English style which has obviously brought England all kinds of International success (sarcasm) but like the NHL trap, can ensure that you might win a few and not get blown out in the process

- Did they think that by making this change in vision they could make the playoffs? No. Not even the new coach is talking about playoffs

- So why did they make the change? So that you and I would think that 10 of 24 points is a sign of improvement and we would renew our tickets.

- oh and we still don't scout much at all in the United States, where these new technically sound players are going to be coming from.

- We have pushed one of the Ajax men out of the club entirely. Let's see what the offseason brings for BDK and TR

All the while ignoring the massive movement in the United States to develop players and systems that support 4-3-3. While more and more teams are getting on that bus, we are going back to the horse and buggy.

That my friends is the most concerning thing in all of this.

[jabbronies]

- the United States Men's National Program has decided that under Jurgen Klinsmann they will adopt a 4-3-3, attacking style of football


How long will this last? If the US are not successful in the next world cup, this whole way of thinking could be out the door.

However if successful, I don't think it'll be with the 4-3-3 that we are seeing in Spain/Netherlands.
the US just doesn't have the skilled players to produce that style of 4-3-3. MLS is a very tough/dirty but athletic league. Flare players will get cut down pretty quickly if they don't toughen up.

I think a hybrid of this Spain 4-3-3 along with the toughness of a german/english league is what the US will end up being successful with. Question is, can they/will they move this route or get stuck up in the old vs new argument you presented above.

Like the US national team, we need to get away from the old and start developing the new.
4-4-2 hoofball will get us results now, but will put us back in the near future. We need to develop our 4-3-3 hybrid now!

[__wowza]

after the transfer window i'll have a more accurate rating for the guy. this hoofball shit has to stop though. it's ugly, and it renders the midfield useless unless we're defending or watching JDG blast the ball over the net for the tenth straight time. props to the guy for trying, but in each of his attempts, even if it was on target the keeper would have it covered. seriously, watch the games if you think im making it up.

the possession and passing accuracy have taken a dramatic dip.
the quality we're playing has taken a dramatic dip.

we might as well be playing a weird ass greek/aussie 4-2-2-2 at this point.

[Pookie]

^ like most things in life. If you are successful, folks will rush to copy it. Initial results are mixed but if SKC pull off the MLS Cup and US sees some success at International level over the next few years, you will have quite a strong movement behind it.

The big thing will be that if they can develop technical players over the next 5 years, along with coaches that adopt that philosophy, that in itself will change the game.

[Section 117]

you didn't enjoy tonight's match very much, then, did you?! :p

Really one game makes him Sir Alex now come on man. I know that we ended up scoring late to win and yeah it was nice and all. But overall this game is an anomaly for how good this team is. Enjoy it cause it won't last

[v00d00daddy]

How long will this last? If the US are not successful in the next world cup, this whole way of thinking could be out the door.

You may be right.

One thing is for sure though...

No team in the world will ever set up their programs based on the style of play TFC is currently using. Not one.

Nobody plays this kind of extreme direct football and gets long term results anymore and nobody in their right mind would use it as a philosophy for building towards future success.

So why are we using it?

Simplest answer I can come up with: to try and eek out immediate results to avoid SSH fleeing in droves.

I'm sorry but the mentality Mariner expresses seems archaic...not to mention ugly to watch.

[jabbronies]

You may be right.

One thing is for sure though...

No team in the world will ever set up their programs based on the style of play TFC is currently using. Not one.

Nobody plays this kind of extreme direct football and gets long term results anymore and nobody in their right mind would use it as a philosophy for building towards future success.

So why are we using it?

Simplest answer I can come up with: to try and eek out immediate results to avoid SSH fleeing in droves.

I'm sorry but the mentality Mariner expresses seems archaic...not to mention ugly to watch.

I can't wait to see who mariner brings in at the window. They'll be a real indication of where he is planning on taking this team. It'll tell us if he is abandoning the original plan or taking a slightly different approach as he claims he is. but my gut is we are a 4-4-2 team

Everyone seems pissed that he let go of Plata - but lets be honest, Plata has tapped out in Toronto. There is no one on the team that plays his style so there is no one here to teach him, a 20 year old kid, how to elevate his game to the next level. It's been obvious since the start of the season that the kid hasn't grown. A stint back home might do him well. Who mariner replaces him with will be telling. Will it be another plumber? I hope he tries and gets a matured version of Plata. but I think he is trying to get a winger who can defend strong on the ball. Plata wasn't strong enough plain and simple.

I actually liked Soolsma. Not sure why he was abandoned other than the fact Mariner needs true wingers who can man the flanks with speed as with any 4-4-2 system. Soolsma wasn't a track back kind of player. Too slow to move up and down the wings to attack and defend.

Also - was DeGuzman started on the wing last night? I saw him out there an awful lot! is he just filling the space until our new winger comes in?

[spark]

Also - was DeGuzman started on the wing last night? I saw him out there an awful lot! is he just filling the space until our new winger comes in?

You saw that right - JDG wide left, Silva wide right. There was points too where JDG was up top with Koevs and RJ laying back in the hole. But what I observed at times was either JDG or Silva would push forward and become a third attacker and the other would stay back with Frings and Dunfield.

[brad]

Part of me wonders if the reversion to the hoofball we are playing is a stop gap solution to dig the team out of the rut. 4-3-3 was not working with the players we have/had, confidence throughout the team appeared to be shot. One thing under Mariner I will say so far, this team seems to be getting some belief back, where as under Winter they usually looked beaten when the walked on the pitch.

I do think this is all about getting positive results to help renewals, but part of me does wonder...

Of course shipping out Soolsma doesn't lend much credence to this theory

[BHTC Mike]

No one can predict the future. If enough people make guesses though someone's will turn out to be close enough that they'll, post hoc, be hailed as visionary. The silent evidence of all the other incorrect predictions will be ignored.

No one knows what tactical fetish will come into vogue over the remainder of this decade. At the elite level there's an argument that the Barca/Spain domination (and fetishization of that approach) will necessarily create a reaction designed to counter that. Whoever does it successfully first will be hailed as the next great tactical innovator.

Broadly speaking the long term formational trend, that's been happening since the game's inception, away from traditional forwards 1-1-8 --> 2-3-5 --> W-M --> 4-2-4 --> 4-3-3 --> 4-4-2 --> 4-5-1 --> "false 9" 4-6-0 (with all sorts of digression into 3-4-3, 5-3-2, and 5-4-1 along the way) will probably continue. 3-4-3 is seeing a rejuvenation in Italy and South America right now because the story of tactics is a story of REACTION to the dominate styles to find an advantage but, broadly speaking, the long term trend has always been to move players away from goal and ask them to be more adaptable two-way players. There's a whole notion that modern forwards will be expected to also play in midfield and defend and that the traditional "goal poacher" is obsolete.

In the above sense 4-4-2, in all its variations, is becoming an out of date formation at the elite level. (It still has its advocates like Sacchi though and it was another ITALIAN, not Englishman, that lead Ireland to their first major tournament in a decade, with a team of mostly lower tier pluggers, based on its defensive qualities. It is in vogue in the Bundesliga again after years of 5-3-2/3-5-2 dominating their national style.) How that percolates down to OUR level is another question. 4-4-2 remains a popular formation in MLS and is used by many of the best teams who play the most attractive football. KC's 4-3-3 has been CRITICIZED by the aesthetes for its reliance on physicality and athleticism and LACK of reliance on technique and possession tactics. Ironically, the coaches most vocally critical of the cagey, counter attacking, and physical nature of a lot of MLS play - Schmid and Kreis - prefer to line their team up in a diamond 4-4-2.

Regardless, you don't gain an advantage in tactics from copying what's successful. You gain an advantage from COUNTERING your opponent's tactics and formation and putting your players in the positions where they'll have the most cover defensively and be dangerous offensively. Using a combination of formation and movement the objective is to create "numbers up" situations in target areas of the pitch while denying space to opponents and creating space for your attackers.

Rigid adherence to 4-3-3 denys us that opportunity. Equally matched opponents adopted a simple a tactical approach that denied us space in front of their penalty area, forced us wide (which lead to all the aimless crossing) while they packed the penalty area, and countered into the space opened up when our fullbacks moved forward to support the attack (as it broke down outside the box and was forced wide). Two wingers - actual WINGERS: as in wide forwards; we should start calling them "Winters" to distinguish them from midfielders - and two attacking fullbacks meant our midfield was over run and couldn't cover all the space they were asked too. That's why our back line looked even worse than they already were. San Jose killed us using these tactics and Columbus and Chivas happily let us have all the ball we wanted while they conserved energy and happily walked out of BMO with all three points. Some people continue to confuse our advantage in possession in those games with meaningful tactical advantage.

Formation alone does not dicate style. Greek 4-5-1 is not the same thing as Spanish 4-5-1 that is popular in La Liga. How Paul Mariner plays 4-4-2 will be as dictated by the players available to him as by his long term vision of what TFC should look like.

To make another broad prediction: MLS will continue to evolve tactically and technically. North American players will get better as more resources are poured into early development throughout the continent and development focussed youth programs, even outside MLS academies, can sell a future as a professional rather than an immeadiate focus on winning (or a scholarship). That process will be long, slow, fitful, and prone to interruption and digressions. We'll evolve in our own way independent of what happens at the elite level in Europe. The evolution will happen independent of whatever program TFC adopts and we'll likely only play a small role in the story as it unfolds. That's not a bad thing and how we play TODAY, the tactics and formation we adopt right now, in no way preclude participation in the long term direction of MLS.

In fact, WINNING SOME GAMES might be the best thing. Winning is what gives players the confidence to try to play better football. "The worst team in the world" wasn't going to do much to contribute to MLS's style. If Paul Mariner can make TFC competitive in the league THAT is what will provide the base to go on and actually innovate once we find the right group of players, maybe even that one really great player like Schelleto, Morales, Donovan, or Rosales, that you can build a whole system around. I still have a feeling that's what Preki was trying to do in 2010 and our fan base couldn't handle it. Too many people preach patience themselves but will not accept ugly football now if it leads to better football later.

Asking Paul Mariner to play beautiful football today, with the group of players we have, is insane. Seriously: insane. It's asking him to repeat all the mistakes we just made for the last year and a half rather than find a solution that makes us something better than a laughing stock in our own league.

Pookie: you make a lot of great points about where TFC needs to start looking for talent and cultivating relationships if they're to be successful in an American league. You haven't simply bought in to the "academy will solve everything" pie-in-the-sky solution. Who do you think is better equipped to recognize that: someone with Paul Mariner's MLS background or someone with no first hand knowledge of MLS like Winter? I get that you want to lay part of the blame for the last year and half at Mariner's feet and include him in the FO mess that TFC has been since 2007. I don't understand it but I get it. But if you were out there looking for a new head coach why wouldn't Mariner be on the list? He was considered the next MLS assistant to get a coach for years. If he hadn't been inside TFC he'd be a candidate for the job or the open Portland position. I get that people want an established coach with bulletproof credentials but the reality is that person doesn't exist in MLS: the ones that do, other than Bob Bradley, already have jobs in the league. And Bradley's not known for pretty football! He got canned from the USA job because of it! Any appointment in any league is a gamble. Doubly so in a quickly maturing league without deep roots like MLS.

We're gambling on Mariner. Why don't we wait a while and find out how that turns out. There's really no other option and rushing to "Preki" him would be a waste.

Forza Mariner!

Forza 4-4-2!

Let's keep winning some games.

[ManUtd4ever]

No one can predict the future. If enough people make guesses though someone's will turn out to be close enough that they'll, post hoc, be hailed as visionary. The silent evidence of all the other incorrect predictions will be ignored.

No one knows what tactical fetish will come into vogue over the remainder of this decade. At the elite level there's an argument that the Barca/Spain domination (and fetishization of that approach) will necessarily create a reaction designed to counter that. Whoever does it successfully first will be hailed as the next great tactical innovator.

Broadly speaking the long term formational trend, that's been happening since the game's inception, away from traditional forwards 1-1-8 --> 2-3-5 --> W-M --> 4-2-4 --> 4-3-3 --> 4-4-2 --> 4-5-1 --> "false 9" 4-6-0 (with all sorts of digression into 3-4-3, 5-3-2, and 5-4-1 along the way) will probably continue. 3-4-3 is seeing a rejuvenation in Italy and South America right now because the story of tactics is a story of REACTION to the dominate styles to find an advantage but, broadly speaking, the long term trend has always been to move players away from goal and ask them to be more adaptable two-way players. There's a whole notion that modern forwards will be expected to also play in midfield and defend and that the traditional "goal poacher" is obsolete.

In the above sense 4-4-2, in all its variations, is becoming an out of date formation at the elite level. (It still has its advocates like Sacchi though and it was another ITALIAN, not Englishman, that lead Ireland to their first major tournament in a decade, with a team of mostly lower tier pluggers, based on its defensive qualities. It is in vogue in the Bundesliga again after years of 5-3-2/3-5-2 dominating their national style.) How that percolates down to OUR level is another question. 4-4-2 remains a popular formation in MLS and is used by many of the best teams who play the most attractive football. KC's 4-3-3 has been CRITICIZED by the aesthetes for its reliance on physicality and athleticism and LACK of reliance on technique and possession tactics. Ironically, the coaches most vocally critical of the cagey, counter attacking, and physical nature of a lot of MLS play - Schmid and Kreis - prefer to line their team up in a diamond 4-4-2.

Regardless, you don't gain an advantage in tactics from copying what's successful. You gain an advantage from COUNTERING your opponent's tactics and formation and putting your players in the positions where they'll have the most cover defensively and be dangerous offensively. Using a combination of formation and movement the objective is to create "numbers up" situations in target areas of the pitch while denying space to opponents and creating space for your attackers.

Rigid adherence to 4-3-3 denys us that opportunity. Equally matched opponents adopted a simple a tactical approach that denied us space in front of their penalty area, forced us wide (which lead to all the aimless crossing) while they packed the penalty area, and countered into the space opened up when our fullbacks moved forward to support the attack (as it broke down outside the box and was forced wide). Two wingers - actual WINGERS: as in wide forwards; we should start calling them "Winters" to distinguish them from midfielders - and two attacking fullbacks meant our midfield was over run and couldn't cover all the space they were asked too. That's why our back line looked even worse than they already were. San Jose killed us using these tactics and Columbus and Chivas happily let us have all the ball we wanted while they conserved energy and happily walked out of BMO with all three points. Some people continue to confuse our advantage in possession in those games with meaningful tactical advantage.

Formation alone does not dicate style. Greek 4-5-1 is not the same thing as Spanish 4-5-1 that is popular in La Liga. How Paul Mariner plays 4-4-2 will be as dictated by the players available to him as by his long term vision of what TFC should look like.

To make another broad prediction: MLS will continue to evolve tactically and technically. North American players will get better as more resources are poured into early development throughout the continent and development focussed youth programs, even outside MLS academies, can sell a future as a professional rather than an immeadiate focus on winning (or a scholarship). That process will be long, slow, fitful, and prone to interruption and digressions. We'll evolve in our own way independent of what happens at the elite level in Europe. The evolution will happen independent of whatever program TFC adopts and we'll likely only play a small role in the story as it unfolds. That's not a bad thing and how we play TODAY, the tactics and formation we adopt right now, in no way preclude participation in the long term direction of MLS.

In fact, WINNING SOME GAMES might be the best thing. Winning is what gives players the confidence to try to play better football. "The worst team in the world" wasn't going to do much to contribute to MLS's style. If Paul Mariner can make TFC competitive in the league THAT is what will provide the base to go on and actually innovate once we find the right group of players, maybe even that one really great player like Schelleto, Morales, Donovan, or Rosales, that you can build a whole system around. I still have a feeling that's what Preki was trying to do in 2010 and our fan base couldn't handle it. Too many people preach patience themselves but will not accept ugly football now if it leads to better football later.

Asking Paul Mariner to play beautiful football today, with the group of players we have, is insane. Seriously: insane. It's asking him to repeat all the mistakes we just made for the last year and a half rather than find a solution that makes us something better than a laughing stock in our own league.

Pookie: you make a lot of great points about where TFC needs to start looking for talent and cultivating relationships if they're to be successful in an American league. You haven't simply bought in to the "academy will solve everything" pie-in-the-sky solution. Who do you think is better equipped to recognize that: someone with Paul Mariner's MLS background or someone with no first hand knowledge of MLS like Winter? I get that you want to lay part of the blame for the last year and half at Mariner's feet and include him in the FO mess that TFC has been since 2007. I don't understand it but I get it. But if you were out there looking for a new head coach why wouldn't Mariner be on the list? He was considered the next MLS assistant to get a coach for years. If he hadn't been inside TFC he'd be a candidate for the job or the open Portland position. I get that people want an established coach with bulletproof credentials but the reality is that person doesn't exist in MLS: the ones that do, other than Bob Bradley, already have jobs in the league. And Bradley's not known for pretty football! He got canned from the USA job because of it! Any appointment in any league is a gamble. Doubly so in a quickly maturing league without deep roots like MLS.

We're gambling on Mariner. Why don't we wait a while and find out how that turns out. There's really no other option and rushing to "Preki" him would be a waste.

Forza Mariner!

Forza 4-4-2!

Let's keep winning some games.

Absolutely bang on.

[jabbronies]

You saw that right - JDG wide left, Silva wide right. There was points too where JDG was up top with Koevs and RJ laying back in the hole. But what I observed at times was either JDG or Silva would push forward and become a third attacker and the other would stay back with Frings and Dunfield.

Which is classic 4-4-2

[v00d00daddy]

No one can predict the future. If enough people make guesses though someone's will turn out to be close enough that they'll, post hoc, be hailed as visionary. The silent evidence of all the other incorrect predictions will be ignored.

No one knows what tactical fetish will come into vogue over the remainder of this decade. At the elite level there's an argument that the Barca/Spain domination (and fetishization of that approach) will necessarily create a reaction designed to counter that. Whoever does it successfully first will be hailed as the next great tactical innovator.

Broadly speaking the long term formational trend, that's been happening since the game's inception, away from traditional forwards 1-1-8 --> 2-3-5 --> W-M --> 4-2-4 --> 4-3-3 --> 4-4-2 --> 4-5-1 --> "false 9" 4-6-0 (with all sorts of digression into 3-4-3, 5-3-2, and 5-4-1 along the way) will probably continue. 3-4-3 is seeing a rejuvenation in Italy and South America right now because the story of tactics is a story of REACTION to the dominate styles to find an advantage but, broadly speaking, the long term trend has always been to move players away from goal and ask them to be more adaptable two-way players. There's a whole notion that modern forwards will be expected to also play in midfield and defend and that the traditional "goal poacher" is obsolete.

In the above sense 4-4-2, in all its variations, is becoming an out of date formation at the elite level. (It still has its advocates like Sacchi though and it was another ITALIAN, not Englishman, that lead Ireland to their first major tournament in a decade, with a team of mostly lower tier pluggers, based on its defensive qualities. It is in vogue in the Bundesliga again after years of 5-3-2/3-5-2 dominating their national style.) How that percolates down to OUR level is another question. 4-4-2 remains a popular formation in MLS and is used by many of the best teams who play the most attractive football. KC's 4-3-3 has been CRITICIZED by the aesthetes for its reliance on physicality and athleticism and LACK of reliance on technique and possession tactics. Ironically, the coaches most vocally critical of the cagey, counter attacking, and physical nature of a lot of MLS play - Schmid and Kreis - prefer to line their team up in a diamond 4-4-2.

Regardless, you don't gain an advantage in tactics from copying what's successful. You gain an advantage from COUNTERING your opponent's tactics and formation and putting your players in the positions where they'll have the most cover defensively and be dangerous offensively. Using a combination of formation and movement the objective is to create "numbers up" situations in target areas of the pitch while denying space to opponents and creating space for your attackers.

Rigid adherence to 4-3-3 denys us that opportunity. Equally matched opponents adopted a simple a tactical approach that denied us space in front of their penalty area, forced us wide (which lead to all the aimless crossing) while they packed the penalty area, and countered into the space opened up when our fullbacks moved forward to support the attack (as it broke down outside the box and was forced wide). Two wingers - actual WINGERS: as in wide forwards; we should start calling them "Winters" to distinguish them from midfielders - and two attacking fullbacks meant our midfield was over run and couldn't cover all the space they were asked too. That's why our back line looked even worse than they already were. San Jose killed us using these tactics and Columbus and Chivas happily let us have all the ball we wanted while they conserved energy and happily walked out of BMO with all three points. Some people continue to confuse our advantage in possession in those games with meaningful tactical advantage.

Formation alone does not dicate style. Greek 4-5-1 is not the same thing as Spanish 4-5-1 that is popular in La Liga. How Paul Mariner plays 4-4-2 will be as dictated by the players available to him as by his long term vision of what TFC should look like.

To make another broad prediction: MLS will continue to evolve tactically and technically. North American players will get better as more resources are poured into early development throughout the continent and development focussed youth programs, even outside MLS academies, can sell a future as a professional rather than an immeadiate focus on winning (or a scholarship). That process will be long, slow, fitful, and prone to interruption and digressions. We'll evolve in our own way independent of what happens at the elite level in Europe. The evolution will happen independent of whatever program TFC adopts and we'll likely only play a small role in the story as it unfolds. That's not a bad thing and how we play TODAY, the tactics and formation we adopt right now, in no way preclude participation in the long term direction of MLS.

In fact, WINNING SOME GAMES might be the best thing. Winning is what gives players the confidence to try to play better football. "The worst team in the world" wasn't going to do much to contribute to MLS's style. If Paul Mariner can make TFC competitive in the league THAT is what will provide the base to go on and actually innovate once we find the right group of players, maybe even that one really great player like Schelleto, Morales, Donovan, or Rosales, that you can build a whole system around. I still have a feeling that's what Preki was trying to do in 2010 and our fan base couldn't handle it. Too many people preach patience themselves but will not accept ugly football now if it leads to better football later.

Asking Paul Mariner to play beautiful football today, with the group of players we have, is insane. Seriously: insane. It's asking him to repeat all the mistakes we just made for the last year and a half rather than find a solution that makes us something better than a laughing stock in our own league.

Pookie: you make a lot of great points about where TFC needs to start looking for talent and cultivating relationships if they're to be successful in an American league. You haven't simply bought in to the "academy will solve everything" pie-in-the-sky solution. Who do you think is better equipped to recognize that: someone with Paul Mariner's MLS background or someone with no first hand knowledge of MLS like Winter? I get that you want to lay part of the blame for the last year and half at Mariner's feet and include him in the FO mess that TFC has been since 2007. I don't understand it but I get it. But if you were out there looking for a new head coach why wouldn't Mariner be on the list? He was considered the next MLS assistant to get a coach for years. If he hadn't been inside TFC he'd be a candidate for the job or the open Portland position. I get that people want an established coach with bulletproof credentials but the reality is that person doesn't exist in MLS: the ones that do, other than Bob Bradley, already have jobs in the league. And Bradley's not known for pretty football! He got canned from the USA job because of it! Any appointment in any league is a gamble. Doubly so in a quickly maturing league without deep roots like MLS.

We're gambling on Mariner. Why don't we wait a while and find out how that turns out. There's really no other option and rushing to "Preki" him would be a waste.

Forza Mariner!

Forza 4-4-2!

Let's keep winning some games.

Great post as far as formations go.

But I'm not a stickler for the 4-3-3 formation.

For me and as far as Mariner goes, it's about philosophy.

I agree that asking the squad to play beautifully is ridiculous.

But they can play formations that rely more on possession than the current style.

Formations that rely less on clearing the ball upfield in almost every situation...both defensive and offensive.

There is no excuse for watching Eckersley pound countless balls upfield from his own 18 and handing the ball back to the opposition

I love counter attacking football...I love sound defensive football too.

Hoof ball is a poor example of both.

So fine...viva 4-4-2!!!

But there's no way I'm cheering for a coach that tells his players to put a long throw in from in front of his own bench.

Only to see it gobbled up by the opponent.

Mariner did this twice consecutively in the first 10 minutes of yesterday's game.

He actually mimed the motion to hall to take a long throw.

It's ugly, lazy and bush league football...all at the (overly) expressed wishes of Paul Mariner.

Im sure he's a nice man but he behaves on the touchline and employs tactics just like those of coaches I had as a 12 year old.

And that's damning.

[Stryker]

If it was PM that managed to get JDG out the door his stock with me just went up a few points.

[T-boy]

I felt the same way in the past, but based on their collective contributions on the pitch this season, I can live with the departures of Plata and JDG. Soolsma is the most significant loss in my opinion.

The murmers are that Soolsma was more of an off field issue than on field. It definitely seems that way, especially with the Dallas incident too.

[Pookie]

It does seem like this team is headed back to where it was a few years ago. I wonder if we'll actually see another DP signing, or if we'll go back to the day where the ticket sales had to happen first, and then the money got spent. This team operated with one of the highest payrolls in the league for a couple of years but that was really spending the money earned in the first three 'sell-out' years.

So maybe the change in style is a move to be able to field a cheaper team.

To further your point and that of canary10 regarding our style of play.

All the while, the US Soccer Federation and it's MLS academy ranks move towards an attacking, possession minded style of play under the watch and direction of Jurgen Klinsmann. We had our chance to be a part of it but short term results were viewed to be harming ticket renewals... When the real issue is value and price... So back to the dinosaur we ride

[T-boy]

To further your point and that of canary10 regarding our style of play.

All the while, the US Soccer Federation and it's MLS academy ranks move towards an attacking, possession minded style of play under the watch and direction of Jurgen Klinsmann. We had our chance to be a part of it but short term results were viewed to be harming ticket renewals... When the real issue is value and price... So back to the dinosaur we ride

As I keep saying, the TFC academy STILL seem to be playing the 4-3-3 system, so as long as they are, then there is no reason to think why the future is still bright for TFC. There is no reason in the world why the first team can't be palying a different system to the academy, and getting short term results in the process.

[denime]

The murmers are that Soolsma was more of an off field issue than on field. It definitely seems that way, especially with the Dallas incident too.

Dallas was only off the field problem Soolsma was involved in,and let's not forget it happened after Mariner took over,while Winter was a coach players curfew was on and there were no off the filed problems.

It's obvious skilled players are not welcome here anymore,we are marching back to Preki era were grinding,long throw-ins and booting the ball was only skill needed to make a team.

[Beach_Red]

To further your point and that of canary10 regarding our style of play.

All the while, the US Soccer Federation and it's MLS academy ranks move towards an attacking, possession minded style of play under the watch and direction of Jurgen Klinsmann. We had our chance to be a part of it but short term results were viewed to be harming ticket renewals... When the real issue is value and price... So back to the dinosaur we ride

But it's not a one-way street, so we'll be back when the generation of attacking, posession minded style of players are the norm coming out of the USA and can be had for the right price. Right now it looks like MLSE had a plan and then discovered that it would require a lot more scouting and negotiating. There's a lot more competition, even just among MLS teams, for those players.

[ManUtd4ever]

Dallas was only off the field problem Soolsma was involved in,and let's not forget it happened after Mariner took over,while Winter was a coach players curfew was on and there were no off the filed problems.

It's obvious skilled players are not welcome here anymore,we are marching back to Preki era were grinding,long throw-ins and booting the ball was only skill needed to make a team.

I rated Soolsma as well, but you're being presumptuous. Let's not assume anything about the technical abilities of the players Mariner has targeted until the dust settles.

[Canary10]

As I keep saying, the TFC academy STILL seem to be playing the 4-3-3 system, so as long as they are, then there is no reason to think why the future is still bright for TFC. There is no reason in the world why the first team can't be palying a different system to the academy, and getting short term results in the process.

You can't keep re-building the team year in and year out based on different visions of how we should be playing. We're a year away from that nutty summer transfer period that saw TFC field more players in a year than any other MLS team. Do we really need to be breaking it all up again?! I'd like to see TFC stick with a plan, even when the going gets tough, rather than throw it out a the first sign of trouble. This is exactly what a lot of supporters feared would happen when Winter was fired.

[denime]

I rated Soolsma as well, but you're being presumptuous. Let's not assume anything about the technical abilities of the players Mariner has targeted until the dust settles.

While Dunefiled is playing 90 minutes per game,Mariner sent packing Plata,Soolsma,JDG,Burgos.


What does that tell you?

Game vs Montreal Dunefiled played 90 minutes had 11 passes 5 on target,while Soolsma played 30 minutes,11 passes 9 on target and two goal assists,in what world of professional soccer Dunefiled would ever see more minutes over Soolsma except here with Mariner as HC?

[Jack]

Soolsma wasn't getting too many minutes under Winter, either.

[Pookie]

As I keep saying, the TFC academy STILL seem to be playing the 4-3-3 system, so as long as they are, then there is no reason to think why the future is still bright for TFC. There is no reason in the world why the first team can't be palying a different system to the academy, and getting short term results in the process.And everyone else keeps saying that Mariner cannot be the long term solution if you are going to eventually implement it. He can't coach it, has never coached it and is now overseeng players. Every 4-3-3 player he brings in leads him closer to being out of a job. Further, you think you can just flip the switch and not have any growing pains? Further, Rongen had MLS coaching experience, coach of the year once, is very experienced with 4-3-3. So why Mariner now???

[Canary10]

Another coach, another system, another re-build.....

[T-boy]

You can't keep re-building the team year in and year out based on different visions of how we should be playing. We're a year away from that nutty summer transfer period that saw TFC field more players in a year than any other MLS team. Do we really need to be breaking it all up again?! I'd like to see TFC stick with a plan, even when the going gets tough, rather than throw it out a the first sign of trouble. This is exactly what a lot of supporters feared would happen when Winter was fired.

so how is "the academy is still training with the same system" exactly "throwing it out at first sign of trouble"?

Isn't that actually......keeping the same system for the long term?!

I don't understand the correleation otherwise! KEEPING the same long term vision and keeping the academy training with it!

Unless the academies 4-3-3 is secretly actually a 4-4-2, and we are all too blind and stupid to see it!

[ManUtd4ever]

While Dunefiled is playing 90 minutes per game,Mariner sent packing Plata,Soolsma,JDG,Burgos.


What does that tell you?

Game vs Montreal Dunefiled played 90 minutes had 11 passes 5 on target,while Soolsma played 30 minutes,11 passes 9 on target and two goal assists,in what world of professional soccer Dunefiled would ever see more minutes over Soolsma except here with Mariner as HC?

You're using one player as an example to justify a jaded, unsubstantiated opinion. Besides, Dunfield started in place of JDG, and Soolsma was not a DM.

You cannot compare the skill level on the current roster to the group of plumbers that Preki assembled. That's just insane.

[T-boy]

Another coach, another system, another re-build.....

I'm happy with that. Out with a system that didn't work, and wouldn't never organically work in the MLS, and replacing it with something that has, so far, worked! Fantastic! :)

[DoubleUp]

Well I guess you can color me crazy, because depending on what the terms of the deal are, I might not be all that happy. I can tell you that even if TFC picks him up, they will still need another quality CB to stand next to him, because he can't do it all himself. I also think that it's a poor use of the DP slot, unless we're going to front load a deal and pay him less next year.

He's great in the air and won't be pushed around. But his distribution is pretty bad and he's not the quickest. I hope nobody has over-sized expectations of him being our savior.


I agree with Ag's assessment.

and I really wish they dont make him a DP.

[denime]

Soolsma wasn't getting too many minutes under Winter, either.

This year he was injured in April/May (hamstring I think) that was only reason,he was getting off the bench later in May because of injury,same as Plata.

[T-boy]

And everyone else keeps saying that Mariner cannot be the long term solution if you are going to eventually implement it. He can't coach it, has never coached it and is now overseeng players. Every 4-3-3 player he brings in leads him closer to being out of a job. Further, you think you can just flip the switch and not have any growing pains? Further, Rongen had MLS coaching experience, coach of the year once, is very experienced with 4-3-3. So why Mariner now???

Who's to say that Rongen actually wanted the job?

[T-boy]

This year he was injured in April/May (hamstring I think) that was only reason,he was getting off the bench later in May because of injury,same as Plata.

Or was he in the pub?! :p

[ag futbol]

"Julian de Guzman has been traded to FC Dallas (http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/07/13/toronto-trade-dp-de-guzman-dallas-wiedeman) in exchange for midfielder Andrew Wiedeman"

Guy doesn't really play ... so it's official, we got nothing back except a free DP slot.

[Canary10]

I'm happy with that. Out with a system that didn't work, and wouldn't never organically work in the MLS, and replacing it with something that has, so far, worked! Fantastic! :)

We'll be doing this again next year.

if by "worked" you mean we'd still be a lower half of the table club I agree.

[denime]

You're using one player as an example to justify a jaded, unsubstantiated opinion. Besides, Dunfield started in place of JDG, and Soolsma was not a DM.

You cannot compare the skill level on the current roster to the group of plumbers that Preki assembled. That's just insane.

Why not,Preki did not have DPs,unfortunately or we would end up in playoffs that year.

Take our DPs out and compare with Preki's team,now after this house clean up,we have same lumberjacks as 2 years ago.

[bones]

Another coach, another system, another re-build.....

you forgot another price hike...

[joeyjones]

Why not,Preki did not have DPs,unfortunately or we would end up in playoffs that year.

he had 2, JDG and Mista for 1/2 year

[denime]

I'm happy with that. Out with a system that didn't work, and wouldn't never organically work in the MLS, and replacing it with something that has, so far, worked! Fantastic! :)

10 out of 19 teams are playing that system.:yikes:

[ManUtd4ever]

Why not,Preki did not have DPs,unfortunately or we would end up in playoffs that year.

Take our DPs out and compare with Preki's team,now after this house clean up,we have same lumberjacks as 2 years ago.

I disagree. Even if you discount Frings and Koevs, our current roster has more skilled players than Preki's team. Other than Dunfield, who else would you rate as a plumber among Mariner's recent starting lineups?

In any event, like I said, it would be far more prudent to wait until we see who Mariner acquires during the transfer window before throwing around false generalizations.

[Beach_Red]

I'm happy with that. Out with a system that didn't work, and wouldn't never organically work in the MLS, and replacing it with something that has, so far, worked! Fantastic! :)

It's working fine with many MLS teams - it just requires more work and money (for things like scouting and a proper FO). And it will work here when it's the way all the players coming through the USA system play. It's just MLSE teams will never be leaders. They're usually more middle-of-the-pack than this team has been the last couple of years but that's where this kind of safe, corporate-run team finds its comfort zone.

Pookie called this the United States Development League and he's right. And TFC will likely continue to sign mid-range players coming through that system and play whatever style those players can best play.

[Canary10]

It's legitimate to think the system won't work. But that's a debate for when we were figuring out what system to play. We made that decision already. I can't see the benefit of now throwing the baby out with the bathwater mid stream yet again. We've gone from a defense first sytem, to a possession oriented attacking sytem, to a basic kick and run system in the span of three years, each time having to fundamentally alter the personnel playing the system. I can't see how that's good for the club in the short or long-term. Certainly wasn't how RSL, Seattle, Dallas and the other successful clubs have done it.

[Canary10]

Reminds me of a Groucho Marx line: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."

[Beach_Red]

It's legitimate to think the system won't work. But that's a debate for when we were figuring out what system to play. We made that decision already. I can't see the benefit of now throwing the baby out with the bathwater mid stream yet again. We've gone from a defense first sytem, to a possession oriented attacking sytem, to a basic kick and run system in the span of three years, each time having to fundamentally alter the personnel playing the system. I can't see how that's good for the club in the short or long-term. Certainly wasn't how RSL, Seattle, Dallas and the other successful clubs have done it.


True. But none of those teams made a big deal about playing a different style (and none of them talked about, "changing the way the game is played in North America" - that kind of arrogance from MLSE is very telling), they just went about their business and did it. And none of them started a season 0-9. Sure, they may have toughed it out anyway, but we'll never know.

[Canary10]

I just can't see how it's good for the club to keep getting then shedding players around a constantly shifting playing style.

[pekduck]

It's legitimate to think the system won't work. But that's a debate for when we were figuring out what system to play. We made that decision already. I can't see the benefit of now throwing the baby out with the bathwater mid stream yet again. We've gone from a defense first sytem, to a possession oriented attacking sytem, to a basic kick and run system in the span of three years, each time having to fundamentally alter the personnel playing the system. I can't see how that's good for the club in the short or long-term. Certainly wasn't how RSL, Seattle, Dallas and the other successful clubs have done it.

they have real ownership and a sporting mentality combined with experience in the sport

we lack a real owner, real visionary, real leader at management level who understand this sport. some of the moves (beyond player transfers) over the years reeks amateur maneuvers, organizational deficiency and outright political turf wars

[ManUtd4ever]

10 out of 19 teams are playing that system.:yikes:

This is simply not the case. Winter's version of the 4-3-3 was far more intricate and complex than any of the 4-3-3 variations being utilized successfully by other MLS clubs. That is precisely why it failed miserably at the MLS level.

I've watched many MLS matches over the last couple of seasons involving other clubs that play the 4-3-3, and while the formations were comparable, the style of play was not. The 4-3-3 variations that other MLS clubs have implemented do not involve the same level of positional rotation, and they are based on a far more direct style of play than the system that Winter emphasized.

[Kaz]

I'm happy with that. Out with a system that didn't work, and wouldn't never organically work in the MLS, and replacing it with something that has, so far, worked! Fantastic! :)


Winter's system didn't work because he played it the same way.... he allowed for very little creativity, didn't spend enough time in the right area's and didn't build a strong enough back line.

What Winter did was basically the reverse of Preki. (not completely but close, attacking without strong defence, but that was a failure in players and coaching not in style)

Several clubs can make 4-3-3 work.

The players are there, the players are there to be developed. as well. If they work on 4-3-3 with creativity and that can just as easily go through the centre, as the wings, as well as long ball it from time to time, and can effectively defend a counter attack, set pieces, then you are set.

That is where Winter failed.. he developed a team that was week on set pieces, struggled on counters, and attacked almost exclusively from the wings. It wasn't the 4-3-3 it was the coach... and if it was the players it is still the coach because he brought them in, or allowed them to be brought in. Because Winter never adjusted his style, never modified it for the players, he stuck to his plan. It was like trying to defend a city like it had functional fortifications while those fortifications were still being built.

If we get a decent CB out of all this, and lose 2-3 defenders in the off season, and bring in a replacement for Soolsma, get Plata Back, and some back up in the DM and back up for Koevs. Then the 4-3-3 can be brought back without issue.

Though I don't think Winter's system was ready to be used... he should have been put in charge of the academy and brought Mariner to Coach the first time for a few years while the academy was developing the players to fit this system and then put Winter in Charge, 3-4 years down the road. Even then I'm not so sure.

[ag futbol]

This is simply not the case. Winter's version of the 4-3-3 was far more intricate and complex than any of the 4-3-3 variations being utilized successfully by other MLS clubs. That is precisely why it failed miserably at the MLS level.

I've watched many MLS matches over the last couple of seasons involving other clubs that play the 4-3-3, and while the formations were comparable, the style of play was not. The 4-3-3 variations that other MLS clubs have implemented do not involve the same level of positional rotation, and they are based on a far more direct style of play than the system that Winter emphasized.
Right, so given that Winter was too far in one direction, wouldn't it be more logical for us to change to one that's closer to the same end of the spectrum?

[ManUtd4ever]

Right, so given that Winter was too far in one direction, wouldn't it be more logical for us to change to one that's closer to the same end of the spectrum?

Well, that remains to be seen. In a general context, I concur with your logic, but Mariner has decided that the makeup of our roster is more condusive to executing the 4-4-2 and 4-3-1-2 effectively in order to achieve results in the short term. Therefore, it's entirely reasonable if we judge him based on the results in the short term as well, meaning the duration of this season.

[ag futbol]

Well, that remains to be seen. In a general context, I concur with your logic, but Mariner has decided that the makeup of our roster is more condusive to executing the 4-4-2 and 4-3-1-2 effectively in order to achieve results in the short term. Therefore, it's entirely reasonable if we judge him based on the results in the short term as well, meaning the duration of this season.
I think that's fair. I haven't liked our 4-4-2 much, but the 4-3-1-2 has been ok.

For me personally, I'll be looking at the short-term results and the ability of the management team to find upgrades in the summer window.

Cheers

[T-boy]

10 out of 19 teams are playing that system.:yikes:

They are playing 4-3-3, NOT Aron Winter's extremely complicated version of it! There is a reason why its called the Ajax model....cos Ajax played it! Not the MLS! Can you name another MLS team who is playing Winter's system? (I'm not just talking formation, I'm talking the extremely complex version that Winter brought with him).

[T-boy]

Winter's system didn't work because he played it the same way.... he allowed for very little creativity, didn't spend enough time in the right area's and didn't build a strong enough back line.

What Winter did was basically the reverse of Preki. (not completely but close, attacking without strong defence, but that was a failure in players and coaching not in style)

Several clubs can make 4-3-3 work.

The players are there, the players are there to be developed. as well. If they work on 4-3-3 with creativity and that can just as easily go through the centre, as the wings, as well as long ball it from time to time, and can effectively defend a counter attack, set pieces, then you are set.

That is where Winter failed.. he developed a team that was week on set pieces, struggled on counters, and attacked almost exclusively from the wings. It wasn't the 4-3-3 it was the coach... and if it was the players it is still the coach because he brought them in, or allowed them to be brought in. Because Winter never adjusted his style, never modified it for the players, he stuck to his plan. It was like trying to defend a city like it had functional fortifications while those fortifications were still being built.

If we get a decent CB out of all this, and lose 2-3 defenders in the off season, and bring in a replacement for Soolsma, get Plata Back, and some back up in the DM and back up for Koevs. Then the 4-3-3 can be brought back without issue.

Though I don't think Winter's system was ready to be used... he should have been put in charge of the academy and brought Mariner to Coach the first time for a few years while the academy was developing the players to fit this system and then put Winter in Charge, 3-4 years down the road. Even then I'm not so sure.

Fantastic post IMO, agreed fully.

[Pookie]

This is simply not the case. Winter's version of the 4-3-3 was far more intricate and complex than any of the 4-3-3 variations being utilized successfully by other MLS clubs. That is precisely why it failed miserably at the MLS level.

I've watched many MLS matches over the last couple of seasons involving other clubs that play the 4-3-3, and while the formations were comparable, the style of play was not. The 4-3-3 variations that other MLS clubs have implemented do not involve the same level of positional rotation, and they are based on a far more direct style of play than the system that Winter emphasized.

I say this respectfully but I think you are missing the fact that Winter's system was actually Klinsmann's blueprint.

The same blueprint that the entire US Soccer Federation has adopted and subsequently each US MLS Academy and soon to be first teams will adopt (10 of 19 as Denime says or 10 of 16 US Teams).

Klinsmann gave us the model. Maybe Winter's interpretation of it was too complex. Fine. Dumb it down a shade but don't throw it out. Bring in someone else, like a Rongen who is still with the bloody team FFS.

When US Soccer Federation goes one route and we choose to go another, after getting the plans from the guy that is driving US Soccer... and we play in the US Soccer league for all intents and purposes... that's dumb. To argue otherwise is to believe Anselmi knows more about football and can set direction better than the US Soccer Federation/Jurgen Klinsmann.

[denime]

This is simply not the case. Winter's version of the 4-3-3 was far more intricate and complex than any of the 4-3-3 variations being utilized successfully by other MLS clubs. That is precisely why it failed miserably at the MLS level.

I've watched many MLS matches over the last couple of seasons involving other clubs that play the 4-3-3, and while the formations were comparable, the style of play was not. The 4-3-3 variations that other MLS clubs have implemented do not involve the same level of positional rotation, and they are based on a far more direct style of play than the system that Winter emphasized.

I like when you throw in how complex was his system,FFS 10 years old kids playing it today in NA,it is pass and move system,movement of the ball.

I do understand that for that system you must have PROFESSIONAL players that can PASS and MOVE.

Formation is 433 point to the back what ends up a 4-1-2-3,or in some games Winter played 3-4-3.

Like I wrote 10 year old kids can do it;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DThjb_XyyoU&feature=player_embedded

[jloome]

Winter's system didn't work because he played it the same way.... he allowed for very little creativity, didn't spend enough time in the right area's and didn't build a strong enough back line.

He also didn't adapt tactically to full-field pressure. He had to push higher up the field and build down the wings instead of from the back, because MLS players aren't generally all able to escape pressure AND outlet the ball accurately. In Europe, on a top team like Ajax, full-field pressure often gets pulled apart by individual brilliance. That wasn't going to happen here.

The question to me (and don't get me wrong, I like winning) is whether Mariner saddled him with players he knew would have no chance at succeeding at a building-from-the-back tactical approach.

But ultimately, it was still up to Winter to recognize this and adjust, and he simply wasn't flexible enough to do so.When the team had player meetings, it was clear from teh Kocic interview that they shared their concern about not challenging the other team enough, they came out with high pressure in Winter's last two games, and we got results.

Again, that wouldn't have turned Winter into a tactician, and he was going to have to adjust again at some point. I don't think he was close to ready or smart enough for this level, just a nice, honest ex-pro.

Mariner on the other hand seems likely to win some games. Not sure I'd trust him with a wooden nickel, but he'll win some.

[ManUtd4ever]

I like when you throw in how complex was his system,FFS 10 years old kids playing it today in NA,it is pass and move system,movement of the ball.

I do understand that for that system you must have PROFESSIONAL players that can PASS and MOVE.

Formation is 433 point to the back what ends up a 4-1-2-3,or in some games Winter played 3-4-3.

Like I wrote 10 year old kids can do it;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DThjb_XyyoU&feature=player_embedded

Denime, I have no doubt that these kids are being trained to be tactically adept at that level in their formative years. In fact, it's very encouraging for the future of football in Canada and the U.S.

Unfortunately, that doesn't change the reality that it is extremely difficult and highly unlikely to field a competitive roster in a salary capped league like MLS that can execute the Ajax model of the 4-3-3, based on the general pedigree of the current generation of most players that are available within the league imposed salary constraints.

Your post just reinforces the rationale for gradually implementing the philosophy with the first team over the next few years with the next generation of homegrown talent.

[jloome]

WOW just wow.. I just watched a bit of the link you put up and am amazed how well some of those kids can play.. I just witnessed more consecutive passes by 10 years old then i have seen our guys put together in quite a long time..

It's not the complexity at issue. Denime is right; kids can do it. But as Edmonton discovered (they did well with it for the first half of their first season), it only works if the kids using the system can play at speed with it, to match the speed of the pressure they'll face. Two sets of 11-year-olds may generally be very equal, so they can adjust and adapt easily to the speed required to deliver the ball accurately to escape pressure.

But at the pro level, it's a hell of a lot harder to make that adjustment. Remember when Frings dwelt too long on the ball against RSL and they stripped him in front? That's what happens when you play the 4-3-3 with guys who can't make quick decisions.

We didn't have the right players for that system. But even though I accept that may have been based on front office duplicity and politics, I also note that Winter wasn't at field level, didn't recognize it, didn't adapt. He was either taken out by a corporate predator or offered himself up to one by being bad at his job.

I agree with Denime that it's realistic to make this work on MLS; but that doesn't mean easy. It means expensive, taking time, signing smart, quick players and bringng up only the best of your own kids. It's a long haul turnaround, and should have been sold as such.

They should have been direct in their expectations, but they all snowed themselves with the quality of the late run last year and performance in CONCACAF, where the other teams also play possession football and don't even start challenging the ball until it crosses midifield. So they got a sense that it was going faster than anticipated and started making claims about the playoffs.

What they should have said from the start is "we're going to play possession football, which means rebuilding the team, and that's going to take two or three years of hard work." If we'd heard that in March, things on this board would be quite different.

[denime]

WOW just wow.. I just watched a bit of the link you put up and am amazed how well some of those kids can play.. I just witnessed more consecutive passes by 10 years old then i have seen our guys put together in quite a long time..

U11 California kids,it makes me lough every time when I hear excuse how "Winter System" was complex.

Receive,pass,move, is complex indeed for Dunefeild,the rest of team should be able to execute this system.

Tomorrow Hershey centre from 9am until 3pm if any of you have some time drop by to see GTA kids from Sigma FC U11-U15 playing this complex 433 system,exactly the one Winter was trying to implement with our 1st team,and than Sunday 9am at OSA one more possession based game.


Complex :smilielol5:

[denime]

It's not the complexity at issue. Denime is right; kids can do it. But as Edmonton discovered (they did well with it for the first half of their first season), it only works if the kids using the system can play at speed with it, to match the speed of the pressure they'll face. Two sets of 11-year-olds may generally be very equal, so they can adjust and adapt easily to the speed required to deliver the ball accurately to escape pressure.

But at the pro level, it's a hell of a lot harder to make that adjustment. Remember when Frings dwelt too long on the ball against RSL and they stripped him in front? That's what happens when you play the 4-3-3 with guys who can't make quick decisions.

We didn't have the right players for that system. But even though I accept that may have been based on front office duplicity and politics, I also note that Winter wasn't at field level, didn't recognize it, didn't adapt. He was either taken out by a corporate predator or offered himself up to one by being bad at his job.

I agree with Denime that it's realistic to make this work on MLS; but that doesn't mean easy. It means expensive, taking time, signing smart, quick players and bringng up only the best of your own kids. It's a long haul turnaround, and should have been sold as such.

They should have been direct in their expectations, but they all snowed themselves with the quality of the late run last year and performance in CONCACAF, where the other teams also play possession football and don't even start challenging the ball until it crosses midifield. So they got a sense that it was going faster than anticipated and started making claims about the playoffs.

What they should have said from the start is "we're going to play possession football, which means rebuilding the team, and that's going to take two or three years of hard work." If we'd heard that in March, things on this board would be quite different.

Agree on all of the above,TFC FO fuck this one up once again.Winter wasn't the right person for the job,he was cheap solution,I have no problem with firing Winter although month or two earlier would be probably better,my problem is that TFC FO with Cockrane and Mariner did absolutely nothing to help Winter and BDK to implement this philosophy/culture change and now they are running the circus with total overhaul,right move would be to give BDK interim coach title for the rest of the season and tweak it as we go.
Playing 442 and having academy learning 433 will fire back,yo can not switch overnight,unless you bring all 18 academy player into 1st team at once,other wise all boys coming from 433 will have to learn boot ball once they end up,when and how you implement 433 when majority of your team is playing442,how you switch with same players?


Damn,this is wrong thread for this discussion,lets go back to topic.

This is more for Rate the mariner thread.

[DaBandit]

It's not the complexity at issue. Denime is right; kids can do it. But as Edmonton discovered (they did well with it for the first half of their first season), it only works if the kids using the system can play at speed with it, to match the speed of the pressure they'll face. Two sets of 11-year-olds may generally be very equal, so they can adjust and adapt easily to the speed required to deliver the ball accurately to escape pressure.

But at the pro level, it's a hell of a lot harder to make that adjustment. Remember when Frings dwelt too long on the ball against RSL and they stripped him in front? That's what happens when you play the 4-3-3 with guys who can't make quick decisions.

We didn't have the right players for that system. But even though I accept that may have been based on front office duplicity and politics, I also note that Winter wasn't at field level, didn't recognize it, didn't adapt. He was either taken out by a corporate predator or offered himself up to one by being bad at his job.

I agree with Denime that it's realistic to make this work on MLS; but that doesn't mean easy. It means expensive, taking time, signing smart, quick players and bringng up only the best of your own kids. It's a long haul turnaround, and should have been sold as such.

They should have been direct in their expectations, but they all snowed themselves with the quality of the late run last year and performance in CONCACAF, where the other teams also play possession football and don't even start challenging the ball until it crosses midifield. So they got a sense that it was going faster than anticipated and started making claims about the playoffs.

What they should have said from the start is "we're going to play possession football, which means rebuilding the team, and that's going to take two or three years of hard work." If we'd heard that in March, things on this board would be quite different.

Great post J,

But here's the thing.. They did sell it as a re-building process, after every single game last year Winter mentioned 'rebuilding', almost to nausea. So what happened to the PLAN of rebuilding, i think the frustrating part is that they did sell it as a rebuild and change in philosophy. Then bang, we are going a complete different direction.. Do i think Winter was the right guy to continue, no, but I feel that whoever took over should have stuck to the initial philosophy. A would be happy with a dumbed down version of the 4-3-3 if the initial plan was too complicated for MLS. As Denime mentioned, pass and move its pretty simple if you ask me. And if most of our players can not do that then the question is why are they here and who is responsible for them being here..

[Canary10]

Great post J,

But here's the thing.. They did sell it as a re-building process, after every single game last year Winter mentioned 'rebuilding', almost to nausea. So what happened to the PLAN of rebuilding, i think the frustrating part is that they did sell it as a rebuild and change in philosophy. Then bang, we are going a complete different direction.. Do i think Winter was the right guy to continue, no, but I feel that whoever took over should have stuck to the initial philosophy. A would be happy with a dumbed down version of the 4-3-3 if the initial plan was too complicated for MLS. As Denime mentioned, pass and move its pretty simple if you ask me. And if most of our players can not do that then the question is why are they here and who is responsible for them being here..

I think the FO underestimated the fans' willingness to be patient. As you can see from the board, there is more than a majority of people who were willing to stick to the plan. The FO was the one that cold feet, probably aided by some Mariner pushing.

[Ultra & Proud]

Agree ,brand of football we play now is 'when under pressure Boot it" hoofball, instead pass, move ,possession brand that previous coach wanted to implement.

And that hold the ball and pass it out of the back left all of the our opponents, who are very athletic in this league, to toss 8 players forward to pressure us and force errors since we could never 'hoof' it out of the back and thus single handedly make us the worst defensive team in the history of the league. I admit it was exciting though. You knew you were never going to see a 0-0 yawner with us playing.

[DaBandit]

Agree on all of the above,TFC FO fuck this one up once again.Winter wasn't the right person for the job,he was cheap solution,I have no problem with firing Winter although month or two earlier would be probably better,my problem is that TFC FO with Cockrane and Mariner did absolutely nothing to help Winter and BDK to implement this philosophy/culture change and now they are running the circus with total overhaul,right move would be to give BDK interim coach title for the rest of the season and tweak it as we go.
Playing 442 and having academy learning 433 will fire back,yo can not switch overnight,unless you bring all 18 academy player into 1st team at once,other wise all boys coming from 433 will have to learn boot ball once they end up,when and how you implement 433 when majority of your team is playing442,how you switch with same players?


Damn,this is wrong thread for this discussion,lets go back to topic.

This is more for Rate the mariner thread.

I was going to say this as well, how do you 'Gradually' implement the system being played at the academy into the first team, if the 1st team is playing 442?

Sorry last post..

[jloome]

Great post J,

But here's the thing.. They did sell it as a re-building process, .

Not well. They kept saying it was a rebuilding process but at the same time, Winter himself said we could still make the playoffs in year one. Yes, they sold it as rebuilding but they undersold it. They should have been much more conservative.

I agree on the player front; in fact, given how we were playing and with whom, it's almost like we signed players who'd perform better in a 442 (i.e. lots of fullback overlap, complimentary forwards, multiple DMs) Hmmmmmm.........

See, here's the abject reality. I'm not sure i care if he's a wanker or not, if he puts a winning and entertaining product on the field. These people are all paid to play soccer for a living; I'm never going to feel too sorry for any of them.

Be interesting to see how JDG fits in Dallas. They tend to build into a possession zone, like the Mexican teams, so it might work for him. He's good at holding, generally, and delivers an OK pass.

[Canary10]

And that hold the ball and pass it out of the back left all of the our opponents, who are very athletic in this league, to toss 8 players forward to pressure us and force errors since we could never 'hoof' it out of the back and thus single handedly make us the worst defensive team in the history of the league. I admit it was exciting though. You knew you were never going to see a 0-0 yawner with us playing.

They're no better defensively hoofing it out.

[denime]

Not well. They kept saying it was a rebuilding process but at the same time, Winter himself said we could still make the playoffs in year one. Yes, they sold it as rebuilding but they undersold it. They should have been much more conservative.

I agree on the player front; in fact, given how we were playing and with whom, it's almost like we signed players who'd perform better in a 442 (i.e. lots of fullback overlap, complimentary forwards, multiple DMs) Hmmmmmm.........

See, here's the abject reality. I'm not sure i care if he's a wanker or not, if he puts a winning and entertaining product on the field. These people are all paid to play soccer for a living; I'm never going to feel too sorry for any of them.

Be interesting to see how JDG fits in Dallas. They tend to build into a possession zone, like the Mexican teams, so it might work for him. He's good at holding, generally, and delivers an OK pass.

Exactly,Hmmmmmm.........

[DaBandit]

Not well. They kept saying it was a rebuilding process but at the same time, Winter himself said we could still make the playoffs in year one. Yes, they sold it as rebuilding but they undersold it. They should have been much more conservative.

I agree on the player front; in fact, given how we were playing and with whom, it's almost like we signed players who'd perform better in a 442 (i.e. lots of fullback overlap, complimentary forwards, multiple DMs) Hmmmmmm.........

See, here's the abject reality. I'm not sure i care if he's a wanker or not, if he puts a winning and entertaining product on the field. These people are all paid to play soccer for a living; I'm never going to feel too sorry for any of them.

Be interesting to see how JDG fits in Dallas. They tend to build into a possession zone, like the Mexican teams, so it might work for him. He's good at holding, generally, and delivers an OK pass.

Your right very true.. Winter basically through himself under the bus.. The word playoffs should never have come out of anybody's mouths last year.

[Ajax TFC]

Winter wasn't the right man for the job, but what we needed even more than a new coach was someone who knew how to hire a coach. We need a president who knows how the game should be played and has extensive experience with soccer in north america. His job would be to hire/fire the head coach, hire scouts and a technical director, and oversee the academy. And the beauty of it is that we already have the guy to do the job on the pay role. Just give the keys to the club to Rongen already FFS

[Ultra & Proud]

They're no better defensively hoofing it out.

Almost every stat says otherwise (GA, GD, Wins, SO). Possession is down but most of that was BS possession anyways so it added up to nothing.

[trane]

I know that it is another level. But you know, Italy could go from 3-5-2, to 4-3-1-2, to a 4-2-3-1, with almost the same players. Two things the players must have basic footy understanding, and what the manager asks them to do must be well defined, understood and within the players ability. There was a clearly a disconnect under winter, (well even since our first game in MLS)

[ManUtd4ever]

I think the FO underestimated the fans' willingness to be patient. As you can see from the board, there is more than a majority of people who were willing to stick to the plan. The FO was the one that cold feet, probably aided by some Mariner pushing.

I'm not sure about that. The majority of people on this board were calling for Winter's head as a result of his ongoing record of futility in his second season. Even if that was the case, that sentiment is definitely not indicative of the fan base at large, and they constitute the overwhelming majority of STHs.

[Alonso]

Another coach, another system, another re-build.....


"These are the days of our lives...."

[Alonso]

I'm happy with that. Out with a system that didn't work, and wouldn't never organically work in the MLS, and replacing it with something that has, so far, worked! Fantastic! :)


It seems like maybe you've come late to the party, and correct me if I'm wrong, but some of us with a Join Date in the 2008 to 2009 mark have seen this play out 7 times now and are not impressed that lunacy has prevailed again.

If we rebuild midway through every year, we're never going to build anything at all. This schizophrenic, panic button pushing, team exploding every year is the reason this is the worst football team in the world. Not the fact that we need to rebuild, yet again, in my opinion.

[T-boy]

It seems like maybe you've come late to the party, and correct me if I'm wrong, but some of us with a Join Date in the 2008 to 2009 mark have seen this play out 7 times now and are not impressed that lunacy has prevailed again.

If we rebuild midway through every year, we're never going to build anything at all. This schizophrenic, panic button pushing, team exploding every year is the reason this is the worst football team in the world. Not the fact that we need to rebuild, yet again, in my opinion.

I've been a season ticket holder since hear one! I know, I've seen this all before as well. BUT, the big difference so far is...so far under Mariner its started much better than under some of the other coaches. I do realise that new coaches usually get a "bump" at first, and its easy to get results out of players that were previously worn down, and now have a "new found confidence" under the new manager.

But so far the players have repsonded VERY well to Mariner, and he is the polar opposite in many ways to Preki, Winter AND Carver. Those coaches were all "dictator coaches" that led with fear more than a soft hanf. Mariner, on the other hand. seems to be a "players coach", and he gets along with the players, gets them positive and encourages them. I LOVE that type of coach. You see how Mariner hugs the players and talks to them when they are subbed off? That's GOOD man management. So, I am encouraged, so far, that Mariner is a different type of coach than these previously failed coaches.

We shall see if the encouragement and positivity within the team remains, but its been a good start, I think we can all agree?

[TFC07]

Winter wasn't the right man for the job, but what we needed even more than a new coach was someone who knew how to hire a coach. We need a president who knows how the game should be played and has extensive experience with soccer in north america. His job would be to hire/fire the head coach, hire scouts and a technical director, and oversee the academy. And the beauty of it is that we already have the guy to do the job on the pay role. Just give the keys to the club to Rongen already FFS

That isn't a bad idea! I can support Rongen as a President of TFC.

[v00d00daddy]

I'm not sure about that. The majority of people on this board were calling for Winter's head as a result of his ongoing record of futility in his second season. Even if that was the case, that sentiment is definitely not indicative of the fan base at large, and they constitute the overwhelming majority of STHs.


I was okay with Winter being fired but that was under the assumption that he would be replaced by a coach that would continue with the possession based philosophy.

Given the choice between:

a) Keeping Winter
b) Promoting Mariner and playing hoof ball
or
c) Replacing Winter with a more experienced coach that would continue in the same direction in terms of style of play (regardless of formation)

I think it would have been a pretty resounding "C"

Unfortunately C was never considered because "b" was both easier and the man hired for "b" was able to help set the wheels in motion (if you believe the MLS pragmatist v. 4-3-3 issues)

[T-boy]

I was okay with Winter being fired but that was under the assumption that he would be replaced by a coach that would continue with the possession based philosophy.

Given the choice between:

a) Keeping Winter
b) Promoting Mariner and playing hoof ball
or
c) Replacing Winter with a more experienced coach that would continue in the same direction in terms of style of play (regardless of formation)

I think it would have been a pretty resounding "C"

Unfortunately C was never considered because "b" was both easier and the man hired for "b" was able to help set the wheels in motion (if you believe the MLS pragmatist v. 4-3-3 issues)

I still say there has been very little difference, so far, between Winter's game and Mariner's. Yes, of the midfield are keeping the ball less now, But for all their little sideways passes, it didn't actually equate to any dangerous forward play. The point of the game is to outscore your opponent, not bore everybody to sleep! Mariner has them playing ball over the top and Johnson and Koev's running onto through balls, far more dangerous than under Winter. If you call that a step backwards, then fine. I call it a step in the right direction. Meanwhile, in between, the academy are STILL playing 4-3-3 and learning Winter and De Klerks system. The fact that the first team has change their current system into a winning one, is a good thing. I can't see why some people can't see that?

[BayernTFC]

So, you think we should have hept JDG and his massive albatross of a cap hit for the rest of the season?
I'm in the camp with those who are nervously waiting to see what happens next. I'm not very comfortable with a possibly temporary management team making decisions that could greatly affect TFC's future. What Mariner and company do with the space they have now created will be the true test. Details will be very important. What we did know was that, at the end of this season, JDG's contract was off the books. It will be up to Mariner's management team to make sure they select new players well and don't handcuff TFC financially. It's not worth it if TFC replaces one bloated contract with another underperforming player who receives a lengthy bloated contract.

[Alonso]

So, you think we should have hept JDG and his massive albatross of a cap hit for the rest of the season?


No I'm disagreeing with all of:

1 Bailing on the coach yet again
2 Bailing on the system yet again
3 Bailing on RPB player of the year
4 Bailing on Soolsma
5 The revolving door picking up speed again

One or two of these yes, but not all five, and especially not #2.

JDG move is necessary IMO, would have loved to maybe have Rongen in instead of Mariner to continue 433, and would have loved to see what Rongen got to replace JDG to make 433 work.

[Alonso]

I was okay with Winter being fired but that was under the assumption that he would be replaced by a coach that would continue with the possession based philosophy.

Given the choice between:

a) Keeping Winter
b) Promoting Mariner and playing hoof ball
or
c) Replacing Winter with a more experienced coach that would continue in the same direction in terms of style of play (regardless of formation)

I think it would have been a pretty resounding "C"

Unfortunately C was never considered because "b" was both easier and the man hired for "b" was able to help set the wheels in motion (if you believe the MLS pragmatist v. 4-3-3 issues)


Agreed.

Anselmi: 2007 "Let's blow everything up every year for 6 years, reversing course each time, and see how it goes?"

I wish Anselmi would have said this in year one so I would have known to stay the fuck away.

"One of us is not returning next year." Tobor the Great? (Forget who said this)

[BayernTFC]

The fact that the first team has change their current system into a winning one, is a good thing. I can't see why some people can't see that?
I think the jury is still out on that one. It may be prudent to wait and see before declaring that statement as fact. You are correct in stating that the first team's system has been changed. I believe that is why many RPB members are expressing concern. I think v00d00daddy's comment is a good example of the apprehension that exists in some supporters minds:


I was okay with Winter being fired but that was under the assumption that he would be replaced by a coach that would continue with the possession based philosophy.
Now that Paul Mariner has made the roster changes to create the cap room needed to acquire additional players, his choices may have the ability to render a return to a more possession based system impossible in the near term. v00d00daddy, I would have preferred option c) as well, but I would have settled for standing pat until a new full-time management team was introduced. The new TFC ownership has a chance to start with a reasonably clean slate next season. Mariner is in charge right now and all that I can do is hope he makes the right choices.

[T-boy]

No I'm disagreeing with all of:

1 Bailing on the coach yet again
2 Bailing on the system yet again
3 Bailing on RPB player of the year
4 Bailing on Soolsma
5 The revolving door picking up speed again

One or two of these yes, but not all five, and especially not #2.

JDG move is necessary IMO, would have loved to maybe have Rongen in instead of Mariner to continue 433, and would have loved to see what Rongen got to replace JDG to make 433 work.

Unfortunately I think we need about 11 new players to get this 4-3-3 working at TFC! Ok, maybe 9, cos Frings and Koev's can play it! Mind you, we could possibly get 9 players for the amount of cap space JDG was taking up! :p

[Ajax TFC]

Unfortunately I think we need about 11 new players to get this 4-3-3 working at TFC! Ok, maybe 9, cos Frings and Koev's can play it! Mind you, we could possibly get 9 players for the amount of cap space JDG was taking up! :p
not true. We were a midfielder, defender and left winger away from being able to play 4-3-3. Pretty much exactly as far away as are from being able to play any formation. The defense is still as shitty as it was in a 4-3-3, the midfield is even shittier, and the forward line has even less depth.
The players we had who could play the 4-3-3 are:
GK:Kocic
DF:Hall, Eckersley, Henry, Morgan
1DM:Frings, JDG
RM: vacant - - - - -LM: Avila
RW:Soolsma, Lambe - CF:Koevermans (Johnson's no different in either formation) - LW: vacant

All these players could play Winter's system fine. The problem was the players who had to be inserted into the two vacant spots. What's to say that Winter/other 4-3-3 coach wouldn't have been able to fill those spots if given the time? After that it's just an issue of getting the right type of depth players.

[tfc2008]

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/styles/AnimatedArena/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Canary10 http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/styles/AnimatedArena/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=1511028#post1511028)
Another coach, another system, another re-build.....






And still not done afther 6 years

[ManUtd4ever]

I was okay with Winter being fired but that was under the assumption that he would be replaced by a coach that would continue with the possession based philosophy.

Given the choice between:

a) Keeping Winter
b) Promoting Mariner and playing hoof ball
or
c) Replacing Winter with a more experienced coach that would continue in the same direction in terms of style of play (regardless of formation)

I think it would have been a pretty resounding "C"

Unfortunately C was never considered because "b" was both easier and the man hired for "b" was able to help set the wheels in motion (if you believe the MLS pragmatist v. 4-3-3 issues

That is pure conjecture, nothing but an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory. If that was the case, why are BDK and Rongen still in key roles within the organization?

I don't know if you subscribe to that theory, but those who think that Mariner deliberately hijacked Winter's ability to manage the squad in some sort of underhanded attempt to get him fired should start a Winter "truth movement" or initiate a formal inquiry if it makes them feel better. Winter was the architect of his own demise.

As for the decision to hire Mariner in the interim as opposed to searching for an experienced manager outside the organization, logic would dictate that the pending sale of MLSE prevented the pursuit of that option. At some point in the near future, Rogers/Bell will obviously want to make their own determination regarding the decision to hire a long term replacement for Mariner if he falters, and Tom Anselmi for that matter.

[denime]

That is pure conjecture, nothing but an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory. If that was the case, why are BDK and Rongen still in key roles within the organization?

I don't know if you subscribe to that theory, but those who think that Mariner deliberately hijacked Winter's ability to manage the squad in some sort of underhanded attempt to get him fired should start a Winter "truth movement" or initiate a formal inquiry if it makes them feel better. Winter was the architect of his own demise.

As for the decision to hire Mariner in the interim as opposed to searching for an experienced manager outside the organization, logic would dictate that the pending sale of MLSE prevented the pursuit of that option. At some point in the near future, Rogers/Bell will obviously want to make their own determination regarding the decision to hire a long term replacement for Mariner if he falters, and Tom Anselmi for that matter.

It's not theory,they are so many reports from people that worked on some deals with TFC in last 12 months that indicates Winter was back stabbed .

Secondly Rongen and BDK have fuck all key roles in this organization,academy is not 1st team.

And at the end Mariner is NOT interim Coach,he got 3 years contract extension in May,and he was introduced by his Uncle Tommy as new head coach.

[Pookie]

That is pure conjecture, nothing but an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory. If that was the case, why are BDK and Rongen still in key roles within the organization?


If Bob de Klerk's role with the team is viewed as being key, why was he moved from the first team? Replaced by Brennan and Mariner who started on the sidelines in March. Is Brennan really there to help us learn the 4-3-3 eventually? A key piece for when we ultimately transition back to it?

You are dismissing the idea that they couldn't have carried on in the same direction with Rongen and de Klerk as head and assistant coach respectively? How come?

What in Rongren's resume would make it seem like he couldn't handle the first team?

F*ck me, I need a beer.


As for the decision to hire Mariner in the interim as opposed to searching for an experienced manager outside the organization, logic would dictate that the pending sale of MLSE prevented the pursuit of that option.

They had a more experienced coach available IN the organization in Thomas Rongen. He was MLS Coach for something like 10 years, winning Coach of the Year honors along the way. He was also Coach of the US U20 squad for over 6 years (as recently as 2011).

He knows the NA players and the game they play. Knowing good US players is kind of... you know... key... what with playing in a US development league after all. Perhaps that could have been a "recruiting advantage" for TFC. But then again, since we scout the US system so well with our 5 part time scouts, why bother, right?

He also knows the 4-3-3 system well... considering the US is implementing it while we figure we can go about our merry way.

To continue voodoodaddy's point; wouldn't the easier of the solutions have been to replace Winter with Rongen and continue along the development path we started?

[v00d00daddy]

Since the JDG trade thread was taken off the rails by a Mariner/Winter/Philosophy/Formation discussion maybe we should pick it up here.

Here is what I wrote:

I was okay with Winter being fired but that was under the assumption that he would be replaced by a coach that would continue with the possession based philosophy.

Given the choice between:

a) Keeping Winter
b) Promoting Mariner and playing hoof ball
or
c) Replacing Winter with a more experienced coach that would continue in the same direction in terms of style of play (regardless of formation)

I think it would have been a pretty resounding "C"

Unfortunately C was never considered because "b" was both easier and the man hired for "b" was able to help set the wheels in motion (if you believe the MLS pragmatist v. 4-3-3 issues)


and what ManUtd4ever wrote that I'd like to respond to:


That is pure conjecture, nothing but an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory. If that was the case, why are BDK and Rongen still in key roles within the organization?

I don't know if you subscribe to that theory, but those who think that Mariner deliberately hijacked Winter's ability to manage the squad in some sort of underhanded attempt to get him fired should start a Winter "truth movement" or initiate a formal inquiry if it makes them feel better. Winter was the architect of his own demise.

As for the decision to hire Mariner in the interim as opposed to searching for an experienced manager outside the organization, logic would dictate that the pending sale of MLSE prevented the pursuit of that option. At some point in the near future, Rogers/Bell will obviously want to make their own determination regarding the decision to hire a long term replacement for Mariner if he falters, and Tom Anselmi for that matter.

I'm not sure if he deliberately hijacked Winters ability to manage because I'd agree that Winter messed up just fine on his own. But it's pretty clear that Mariner wasn't interested in helping Winter achieve success. I think it's clear based on:

a) Mariner has totally abandoned Winters style of play
b) Mariner is quickly getting rid of players that are more suited to that style of play. Players that you'd consider "winters guys"

Here is T-Boys response:


I still say there has been very little difference, so far, between Winter's game and Mariner's. Yes, of the midfield are keeping the ball less now, But for all their little sideways passes, it didn't actually equate to any dangerous forward play. The point of the game is to outscore your opponent, not bore everybody to sleep! Mariner has them playing ball over the top and Johnson and Koev's running onto through balls, far more dangerous than under Winter. If you call that a step backwards, then fine. I call it a step in the right direction. Meanwhile, in between, the academy are STILL playing 4-3-3 and learning Winter and De Klerks system. The fact that the first team has change their current system into a winning one, is a good thing. I can't see why some people can't see that?

Flat out..you're delusional dude if you don't see the difference between Winters game and Mariners. And I think it's cause you're so married to hating Winter and loving Mariner that you've lost all ability to say anything with any modicum of objectivity.

Either that or you watch the games with your eyes closed. LOL

Out of curiosity...given the three choices above..what would you have chased at the end of May when Winter was canned?

[Pookie]

Who's to say that Rongen actually wanted the job?

Nice.

Former MLS Coach of the Year with over 10 years head coaching experience in this league and over 6 as head of the U20 USMNT wouldn't be interested in coaching TFC but would rather oversee small sided games for a bunch of kids? That's the spin you want us to believe?

Where's that face palm thingy...??

Screw it, f*ck me I'm having two beers now.

... by the way, I'm not renewing my tickets this year. You can take me off your call back list.

[v00d00daddy]

I've bumped the Rate Mariner poll and popped in what I wanted to talk about so we can get this thread back to talk about the JDG trade:

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?32212-Rate-Mariner-June-2012&p=1510805#post1510805

[ManUtd4ever]

If Bob de Klerk's role with the team is viewed as being key, why was he moved from the first team? Replaced by Brennan and Mariner who started on the sidelines in March. Is Brennan really there to help us learn the 4-3-3 eventually? A key piece for when we ultimately transition back to it?

You are dismissing the idea that they couldn't have carried on in the same direction with Rongen and de Klerk as head and assistant coach respectively? How come?

What in Rongren's resume would make it seem like he couldn't handle the first team?

F*ck me, I need a beer.



They had a more experienced coach available IN the organization in Thomas Rongen. He was MLS Coach for something like 10 years, winning Coach of the Year honors along the way. He was also Coach of the US U20 squad for over 6 years (as recently as 2011).

He knows the NA players and the game they play. Knowing good US players is kind of... you know... key... what with playing in a US development league after all. Perhaps that could have been a "recruiting advantage" for TFC. But then again, since we scout the US system so well with our 5 part time scouts, why bother, right?

He also knows the 4-3-3 system well... considering the US is implementing it while we figure we can go about our merry way.

To continue voodoodaddy's point; wouldn't the easier of the solutions have been to replace Winter with Rongen and continue along the development path we started?

I suggested Rongen as a possible replacement myself when Winter was struggling, but it was mentioned in this forum on several occasions by Armen and a few others (I can't recall the posters) that Rongen preferred his role with the Academy and wasn't interested in a promotion to the first team. However, even if Rongen was promoted, there are no guarantees that the club's fortunes would have improved.

[ManUtd4ever]

It's not theory,they are so many reports from people that worked on some deals with TFC in last 12 months that indicates Winter was back stabbed .

Secondly Rongen and BDK have fuck all key roles in this organization,academy is not 1st team.

And at the end Mariner is NOT interim Coach,he got 3 years contract extension in May,and he was introduced by his Uncle Tommy as new head coach.

There were reports in the media of a difference of opinion within the managerial ranks, but that can occur in any front office, even within the most competent organizations. That is a far cry from a deliberate conspiracy to take someone's job.

If you or others are privy to alleged insider information, that's great, but how are the rest of us supposed to form an objective opinion?

At the end of the day, it's all just speculation unless it is confirmed by Winter himself.

[Pookie]

Pookie: you make a lot of great points about where TFC needs to start looking for talent and cultivating relationships if they're to be successful in an American league. You haven't simply bought in to the "academy will solve everything" pie-in-the-sky solution. Who do you think is better equipped to recognize that: someone with Paul Mariner's MLS background or someone with no first hand knowledge of MLS like Winter? I get that you want to lay part of the blame for the last year and half at Mariner's feet and include him in the FO mess that TFC has been since 2007. I don't understand it but I get it. But if you were out there looking for a new head coach why wouldn't Mariner be on the list? He was considered the next MLS assistant to get a coach for years. If he hadn't been inside TFC he'd be a candidate for the job or the open Portland position. I get that people want an established coach with bulletproof credentials but the reality is that person doesn't exist in MLS: the ones that do, other than Bob Bradley, already have jobs in the league. And Bradley's not known for pretty football! He got canned from the USA job because of it! Any appointment in any league is a gamble. Doubly so in a quickly maturing league without deep roots like MLS.


If the choice was between Winter and Mariner, I'm not sure that there is any evidence to support the notion that Winter had any experience with the NA player. So, Mariner wins there. The debate really isn't about Mariner v Winter though. It's about sticking on a vision.

Let me ask you this, yes Mariner might be on the list. However, if the vision, as laid out by Klinsmann to TFC was 4-3-3 Attacking, Possession minded football why wouldn't you look at Thomas Rongen in the organization itself?

He has over 10 years of coaching experience in the MLS, including Coach of the Year. He has over 5 years as head of the USMNT, recently as 2011. He knows the players. He knows where the technical emphasis is going. He knows the 4-3-3 since he was hired to implement it at the Academy.

If Mariner is a candidate he's not my A choice. He has no experience with the vision that I'm supposedly trying to implement and here I have a more experienced, more connected (USMNT) coach available to me right now? I'm an idiot if I don't go with this guy.

And this is so key I want to triple underline it, Klinsmann has hired by the US Soccer Federation based on the exactly same blueprint that he gave TFC. The exact same one. 10 of 16 based MLS teams have moved to adopt it. ALL of their Academies, as part of the US Pyramid are playing it. It is where they are going as a whole bloody nation. Future players and coaches will all be following the same blueprint we had... but opted to discard in order to try to boost a record prior to season ticket renewals.

In essence, in the face of the winds of change in the United States, you are asking me to trust that Tom Anselmi knows how to set the sail to steer this ship away from Klinsmann's map into some glory land? In hiring Mariner, Tom has effectively endorsed going on our own in a sea of change.

[Pookie]

I suggested Rongen as a possible replacement myself when Winter was struggling, but it was mentioned in this forum on several occasions by Armen and a few others (I can't recall the posters) that Rongen preferred his role with the Academy and wasn't interested in a promotion to the first team. However, even if Rongen was promoted, there are no guarantees that the club's fortunes would have improved.

But we aren't looking for them to improve immediately. You think the playoffs are realistic?

The FO is looking for them to improve, so that you and I renew. But c'mon, the playoffs?

The idea is to be able to adapt to the changes in the North American game. To be well positioned as they occur. To be at the forefront instead of being passed over. And the changes are coming. Both in the game itself, amongst the players that will play it and the future coaches.

However, every move Mariner makes towards a 4-3-3, an area he cannot coach effectively at, takes him closer to being out of contract.

BTW, if Rongen said he preferred the Academy while Winter was struggling, I'd say that is great character to not talk about wanting someone else's job while they still have it.

[ManUtd4ever]

I'm not sure if he deliberately hijacked Winters ability to manage because I'd agree that Winter messed up just fine on his own. But it's pretty clear that Mariner wasn't interested in helping Winter achieve success. I think it's clear based on:

a) Mariner has totally abandoned Winters style of play
b) Mariner is quickly getting rid of players that are more suited to that style of play. Players that you'd consider "winters guys"


-Mariner has abandoned Winter's style of play to try and improve the results of the club in the short term, I grant you that. How does that infer anything else if as you suggest, he has just recently started to augment the roster to suit his preferred style of play?

-Mariner has released Burgos, Plata, Soolsma, and JDG. Of those four players, we only know for certain that Soolsma was recruited by Winter. JDG was signed by MoJo, and Plata and Burgos were drafted in the 2011 off season, which most people felt was orchestrated by Mariner because of his extensive familiarity with the MLS Combine and NCAA players compared to Winter and DeKlerk.

I just don't see any objective evidence to support the allegations that Mariner had a vested interest in wanting Winter to fail as miserably as he did. Due to the circumstances, he was presented with an opportunity to finally be a manager in MLS after so many years in a supporting role, and he is trying to lead this team on positive trajectory based on his own philisophical approach. That doesn't make him some sort of villain with respect to how the sequence of events with Winter unfolded, as some people have suggested.

[Pookie]

I just don't see any objective evidence to support the allegations that Mariner had a vested interest in wanting Winter to fail as miserably as he did. Due to the circumstances, he was presented with an opportunity to finally be a manager in MLS after so many years in a supporting role, and he is trying to lead this team on positive trajectory based on his own philisophical approach. That doesn't make him some sort of villain with respect to how the sequence of events with Winter unfolded, as some people have suggested.

I think of you as a very reasonable person.

Mariner took a role on the sidelines in May of this year.

Let's just assume that Duane Rollins' report that Mariner earned a contract extension on May 3rd is correct. It may be incorrect but to this point, Rollins has never retracted it so for purposes of this discussion let's just say it is correct.

You typically do not sign a contract on the day of presentation. Is that reasonable? One needs some time to review the terms and conditions as well as ask questions of the contract presenter in terms of defining roles. According to Kurtis Larson, Mariner wasn't allowed to do his signing job as Winter supposedly ruled with an iron fist. One could imagine that asking for clarification on what he'd be doing for 3 years was one of those important questions he took some time to review.

Would it not be plausible then then to believe that when Mariner walked on the pitch to work with members of the team, he had some inkling that Winter was on less than firm ground? Does that not provide him with a vested interest in seeing what you term to be an "opportunity to finally be a manager in the MLS" to be realized if Winter failed?

Let's also revisit that timeline of the contract offer as I think that vested interest existed long before May.

Knowing what goes into contracts, there is quite a lot of pre-work required to make an offer. Usually the parties will engage in some kind of preliminary discussion regarding terms. Contracts are generally not presented out of the blue.

Even if there was no prior discussion between the parties, Tom Anselmi would need to be discussing this with lawyer(s) within the organization. Terms, financials, important clauses (like non-disclosure agreements) all of that would need to be vetted.

We've also learned that the Board needs to approve of a firing. We can assume that they might also need some type of notice on any contract extension to executives within the organization.

Given that the time involved is somewhat significant we can assume that the contract that was presented on May 3 was likely part of a formal process early-mid April.

You also don't engage in the process to create a contract without first having some discussion about the need to have a contract in the first place. If the decision was made to extend Mariner, there had to be some preliminary discussion as to whether they should or shouldn't. Who they should and who they shouldn't. Ultimately, it was decided that Mariner would be and Winter wouldn't be.

Who would Tom have consulted with? The Board? Perhaps but its unlikely they could give advice. They are more there to approve ideas brought before them. So who could have Tom consulted to vet that idea with? How about Earl Cochrane?

If that is the case, this process would have started before April. During our Transfer Window which closed on March 31st. Is Earl the type to not share boardroom gossip with a friend? You know, between you me and the lamppost?

You don't have to go with me on that latter part of the theory, it's simply food for thought. But the reality is that if Rollins' is correct and we have no reason to believe he is making it up, then Mariner stepped on to the pitch in May, while Winter still had a job knowing full well that if the team continued to flounder he would realize his dream job.

Worst, if that latter part is correct, he had that inkling through the transfer window which provides that vested interest.

Now, I'm not saying he exercised it. Simply challenging your view that he had no vested interest.

[ManUtd4ever]

I think of you as a very reasonable person.

Mariner took a role on the sidelines in May of this year.

Let's just assume that Duane Rollins' report that Mariner earned a contract extension on May 3rd is correct. It may be incorrect but to this point, Rollins has never retracted it so for purposes of this discussion let's just say it is correct.

You typically do not sign a contract on the day of presentation. Is that reasonable? One needs some time to review the terms and conditions as well as ask questions of the contract presenter in terms of defining roles. According to Kurtis Larson, Mariner wasn't allowed to do his signing job as Winter supposedly ruled with an iron fist. One could imagine that asking for clarification on what he'd be doing for 3 years was one of those important questions he took some time to review.

Would it not be plausible then then to believe that when Mariner walked on the pitch to work with members of the team, he had some inkling that Winter was on less than firm ground? Does that not provide him with a vested interest in seeing what you term to be an "opportunity to finally be a manager in the MLS" to be realized if Winter failed?

Let's also revisit that timeline of the contract offer as I think that vested interest existed long before May.

Knowing what goes into contracts, there is quite a lot of pre-work required to make an offer. Usually the parties will engage in some kind of preliminary discussion regarding terms. Contracts are generally not presented out of the blue.

Even if there was no prior discussion between the parties, Tom Anselmi would need to be discussing this with lawyer(s) within the organization. Terms, financials, important clauses (like non-disclosure agreements) all of that would need to be vetted.

We've also learned that the Board needs to approve of a firing. We can assume that they might also need some type of notice on any contract extension to executives within the organization.

Given that the time involved is somewhat significant we can assume that the contract that was presented on May 3 was likely part of a formal process early-mid April.

You also don't engage in the process to create a contract without first having some discussion about the need to have a contract in the first place. If the decision was made to extend Mariner, there had to be some preliminary discussion as to whether they should or shouldn't. Who they should and who they shouldn't. Ultimately, it was decided that Mariner would be and Winter wouldn't be.

Who would Tom have consulted with? The Board? Perhaps but its unlikely they could give advice. They are more there to approve ideas brought before them. So who could have Tom consulted to vet that idea with? How about Earl Cochrane?

If that is the case, this process would have started before April. During our Transfer Window which closed on March 31st. Is Earl the type to not share boardroom gossip with a friend? You know, between you me and the lamppost?

You don't have to go with me on that latter part of the theory, it's simply food for thought. But the reality is that if Rollins' is correct and we have no reason to believe he is making it up, then Mariner stepped on to the pitch in May, while Winter still had a job knowing full well that if the team continued to flounder he would realize his dream job.

Worst, if that latter part is correct, he had that inkling through the transfer window which provides that vested interest.

Now, I'm not saying he exercised it. Simply challenging your view that he had no vested interest.

If I had the feeling that one of my colleagues above my pay grade at work was on the verge of being dismissed because of his poor performance, and I was offered a contract extension at that point in time with the knowledge that I was potentially next in line to take his place, would I accept the offer? Damn right I would, and so would anyone else in their right mind.

[Huyton]

I don't understand the lionization of Rongen. By no means is the guy ideal for a senior mens team.
Look at these Rongen stats:

2005.......1.......8.......1 Chivas
2001.......8......16.......2 DC United
2000.......8......18.......6 DC United
1999......17.......9.......9 DC United MLS Cup winners
1998.......9......17.......6 New England
1997......11......17.......4 New England
1996......19......12.......1 Tampa Bay MLS Supporters Shield Winners
Total.....73......97......29

The last time that Rongen had a mens team (rather than a University or U-20 national team) was in 2005 with Chivas: won 1, drawn 1, lost 8. Of the seven seasons he's been in charge of an MLS side, he's had 2 seasons where he won more than he lost. So, even if you forgive him his atrocious record with Chivas, then take a look at what happened when he inherited the DC United team from Bruce Arena in 1999. How good were DC United in 1998? They were MLS Cup runners up, Supporters Shield Runners up, CONCACAF Champions Cup winners and Interamericana Cup winners. You can see how they did in 2000 and 2001 when they were truly Rongens team.

As a coach of younger players, though, he is much better. He took the US U20 team to two world cups (2007, 2009), failing to get past the quarterfinals in the CONCACAF tournament that is the qualifier for the 2011 U20 World Cup.


So...the Academy is the future, and it's in the hands of a guy who has coached High School, University and U20 National teams quite successfully. After nine games this year, the Academy team has won 6, lost 2 and tied 1, with 18 goals for and 4 against for 19 points.


If stability is what is craved, then leave Rongen where he is...no need to infect the Academy with the same insanity that seems to prevail at the senior level.

As for Paul Mariner, he seems to be able to get results from the group of players that he has.

In the first 10 games of the season, we scored 8 goals and surrendered 21. We held a lead for a grand total of 90 seconds until we finally won a game...with a goal scored in the 88th minute.

In the last 8 games, we've scored 13 goals and conceded 14 and been beaten twice. This is a huge improvement.

We have 13 points from the last 9 games. If we'd done that during the first 9 games as well, we'd be holding down the last playoff spot in the East.

For the time being, Paul Mariner is getting results with the senior team and Thomas Rongen is getting results with Academy. Let's just leave them where they are, eh?

[jloome]

No one can predict the future. If enough people make guesses though someone's will turn out to be close enough that they'll, post hoc, be hailed as visionary. The silent evidence of all the other incorrect predictions will be ignored.

No one knows what tactical fetish will come into vogue over the remainder of this decade. At the elite level there's an argument that the Barca/Spain domination (and fetishization of that approach) will necessarily create a reaction designed to counter that. Whoever does it successfully first will be hailed as the next great tactical innovator.

Broadly speaking the long term formational trend, that's been happening since the game's inception, away from traditional forwards 1-1-8 --> 2-3-5 --> W-M --> 4-2-4 --> 4-3-3 --> 4-4-2 --> 4-5-1 --> "false 9" 4-6-0 (with all sorts of digression into 3-4-3, 5-3-2, and 5-4-1 along the way) will probably continue. 3-4-3 is seeing a rejuvenation in Italy and South America right now because the story of tactics is a story of REACTION to the dominate styles to find an advantage but, broadly speaking, the long term trend has always been to move players away from goal and ask them to be more adaptable two-way players. There's a whole notion that modern forwards will be expected to also play in midfield and defend and that the traditional "goal poacher" is obsolete.

In the above sense 4-4-2, in all its variations, is becoming an out of date formation at the elite level. (It still has its advocates like Sacchi though and it was another ITALIAN, not Englishman, that lead Ireland to their first major tournament in a decade, with a team of mostly lower tier pluggers, based on its defensive qualities. It is in vogue in the Bundesliga again after years of 5-3-2/3-5-2 dominating their national style.) How that percolates down to OUR level is another question. 4-4-2 remains a popular formation in MLS and is used by many of the best teams who play the most attractive football. KC's 4-3-3 has been CRITICIZED by the aesthetes for its reliance on physicality and athleticism and LACK of reliance on technique and possession tactics. Ironically, the coaches most vocally critical of the cagey, counter attacking, and physical nature of a lot of MLS play - Schmid and Kreis - prefer to line their team up in a diamond 4-4-2.

Regardless, you don't gain an advantage in tactics from copying what's successful. You gain an advantage from COUNTERING your opponent's tactics and formation and putting your players in the positions where they'll have the most cover defensively and be dangerous offensively. Using a combination of formation and movement the objective is to create "numbers up" situations in target areas of the pitch while denying space to opponents and creating space for your attackers.

Rigid adherence to 4-3-3 denys us that opportunity. Equally matched opponents adopted a simple a tactical approach that denied us space in front of their penalty area, forced us wide (which lead to all the aimless crossing) while they packed the penalty area, and countered into the space opened up when our fullbacks moved forward to support the attack (as it broke down outside the box and was forced wide). Two wingers - actual WINGERS: as in wide forwards; we should start calling them "Winters" to distinguish them from midfielders - and two attacking fullbacks meant our midfield was over run and couldn't cover all the space they were asked too. That's why our back line looked even worse than they already were. San Jose killed us using these tactics and Columbus and Chivas happily let us have all the ball we wanted while they conserved energy and happily walked out of BMO with all three points. Some people continue to confuse our advantage in possession in those games with meaningful tactical advantage.

Formation alone does not dicate style. Greek 4-5-1 is not the same thing as Spanish 4-5-1 that is popular in La Liga. How Paul Mariner plays 4-4-2 will be as dictated by the players available to him as by his long term vision of what TFC should look like.

To make another broad prediction: MLS will continue to evolve tactically and technically. North American players will get better as more resources are poured into early development throughout the continent and development focussed youth programs, even outside MLS academies, can sell a future as a professional rather than an immeadiate focus on winning (or a scholarship). That process will be long, slow, fitful, and prone to interruption and digressions. We'll evolve in our own way independent of what happens at the elite level in Europe. The evolution will happen independent of whatever program TFC adopts and we'll likely only play a small role in the story as it unfolds. That's not a bad thing and how we play TODAY, the tactics and formation we adopt right now, in no way preclude participation in the long term direction of MLS.

In fact, WINNING SOME GAMES might be the best thing. Winning is what gives players the confidence to try to play better football. "The worst team in the world" wasn't going to do much to contribute to MLS's style. If Paul Mariner can make TFC competitive in the league THAT is what will provide the base to go on and actually innovate once we find the right group of players, maybe even that one really great player like Schelleto, Morales, Donovan, or Rosales, that you can build a whole system around. I still have a feeling that's what Preki was trying to do in 2010 and our fan base couldn't handle it. Too many people preach patience themselves but will not accept ugly football now if it leads to better football later.

Asking Paul Mariner to play beautiful football today, with the group of players we have, is insane. Seriously: insane. It's asking him to repeat all the mistakes we just made for the last year and a half rather than find a solution that makes us something better than a laughing stock in our own league.

Pookie: you make a lot of great points about where TFC needs to start looking for talent and cultivating relationships if they're to be successful in an American league. You haven't simply bought in to the "academy will solve everything" pie-in-the-sky solution. Who do you think is better equipped to recognize that: someone with Paul Mariner's MLS background or someone with no first hand knowledge of MLS like Winter? I get that you want to lay part of the blame for the last year and half at Mariner's feet and include him in the FO mess that TFC has been since 2007. I don't understand it but I get it. But if you were out there looking for a new head coach why wouldn't Mariner be on the list? He was considered the next MLS assistant to get a coach for years. If he hadn't been inside TFC he'd be a candidate for the job or the open Portland position. I get that people want an established coach with bulletproof credentials but the reality is that person doesn't exist in MLS: the ones that do, other than Bob Bradley, already have jobs in the league. And Bradley's not known for pretty football! He got canned from the USA job because of it! Any appointment in any league is a gamble. Doubly so in a quickly maturing league without deep roots like MLS.

We're gambling on Mariner. Why don't we wait a while and find out how that turns out. There's really no other option and rushing to "Preki" him would be a waste.

Forza Mariner!

Forza 4-4-2!

Let's keep winning some games.

Great post, very astute.

[denime]

There were reports in the media of a difference of opinion within the managerial ranks, but that can occur in any front office, even within the most competent organizations. That is a far cry from a deliberate conspiracy to take someone's job.

If you or others are privy to alleged insider information, that's great, but how are the rest of us supposed to form an objective opinion?

At the end of the day, it's all just speculation unless it is confirmed by Winter himself.

REALLY,CHECK THIS ONE:

The conflict between aesthetics and pragmatics in European football reaches Major League Soccer (http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2012/04/19/the-conflict-between-aesthetics-and-pragmatics-in-european-football-reaches-major-league-soccer/)


It’s being suggested that there is a fatal conflict between [Director of Player Development] Paul Mariner – and those within the organization that have a MLS or English background – and Aron Winter, along with the Dutch thinkers. There is a personality conflict involved, but the root of the issue is about player Personnel decisions.

This picture is from that article,APRIL 19 (https://twitter.com/RWhittall)

http://blogimages.thescore.com/footyblog/files/2012/04/MarinerWinterdeKlerk1.jpg



(https://twitter.com/RWhittall)Sound familiar?
To that end, the similarity between Toronto FC’s current situation and Chelsea’s toward the end of AVBs reign for example prompted me to Tweet this this morning:

Richard Whittall @RWhittall (https://twitter.com/RWhittall) Morning troll - Is Paul Mariner to Di Matteo as Aron Winter is to Andre Villas-Boas?


The difference of course is that Mariner was never a head coach in MLS while Di Matteo had experience at the helm with West Brom.

[Pookie]

If I had the feeling that one of my colleagues above my pay grade at work was on the verge of being dismissed because of his poor performance, and I was offered a contract extension at that point in time with the knowledge that I was potentially next in line to take his place, would I accept the offer? Damn right I would, and so would anyone else in their right mind.

So, if you have this knowledge before the employee is officially fired and you have an opportunity to help them close a big sale, or a series of small ones, which would make their firing politically difficult to do... Do you help them?

no one is challenging the idea of Mariner accepting the offer. Just like no one is challenging JDG for taking MLSE's money.

I am simply channeling your view that he had no vested interest in seeing Winter fail. That interest was there and it was very likely there months and months ago.

[narduch]

That would be pretty risky on Mariner's part to sabotage Winter on purpose. There's always a chance the new ownership group comes in and purges the entire FO, leaving Mariner out of a job too.

[denime]

That would be pretty risky on Mariner's part to sabotage Winter on purpose. There's always a chance the new ownership group comes in and purges the entire FO, leaving Mariner out of a job too.

Why is risky,Mariner got 3 years contract extension in May,and he is not interim coach.He doesn't care what will happen with TFC FO.
New ownership comes in and wants to swap whole FO,Mariner is set with 3 years of pay,everything was done before new ownership takes over with a reason.

[TFCRegina]

I hate to say it guys, but it's starting to look like Roogs was Right regarding the coaching change.

Mariner has been awesome.

[Jack]

I hate to say it guys, but it's starting to look like Roogs was Right regarding the coaching change.

Mariner has been awesome.
A lot of us agreed that there needed to be a change. That wasn't a unique point of view.

[jabbronies]

I hate to say it guys, but it's starting to look like Roogs was Right regarding the coaching change.
Mariner has been awesome.

So was half of the message board. I could've sworn that the change vs keep groups were pretty much equal.

[T-boy]

So was half of the message board. I could've sworn that the change vs keep groups were pretty much equal.

It didn't seem equal to me. It seemed like me and Roogsy were the only two pushing for Winter out for a long time. I personally wouldn't have picked Mariner as the replacement...but he's done well! I think when a team is down on confidence, a management change is sometimes all it takes to change results quickly. We all said that "this squad is better than 0-9" and they have definitely proved it.

But the proof of whether Mariner is the right guy will be in the next couple of months. It's easy to change around a team and give them confidence, its more difficult to keep up that form. I'm hopefully though. I love the battling qualities Mariner has instilled in the team right now!

[jabbronies]

It didn't seem equal to me. It seemed like me and Roogsy were the only two pushing for Winter out for a long time. I personally wouldn't have picked Mariner as the replacement...but he's done well! I think when a team is down on confidence, a management change is sometimes all it takes to change results quickly. We all said that "this squad is better than 0-9" and they have definitely proved it.

But the proof of whether Mariner is the right guy will be in the next couple of months. It's easy to change around a team and give them confidence, its more difficult to keep up that form. I'm hopefully though. I love the battling qualities Mariner has instilled in the team right now!

Funny you saw it that way. A lot of people on that side of the argument saw it as themselves plus Roogsy against everyone else on the board. Almost as if they were just blindly being led.
This poll has the majority of people in favour of scraping him, no?
http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?31629-Rate-Winter-April-2012/page4&highlight=rate+winter

I do agree this second half of the season will really be the indication of Mariners impact on this team. He is already making it his own in player selection and playing style.

[Pookie]

I hate to say it guys, but it's starting to look like Roogs was Right regarding the coaching change.

Mariner has been awesome.

He's been good. Winning against creampuff teams isn't exactly something to celebrate but the fact we didn't lose to creampuff teams is something in and of itself.

Hanging anyone's hat on a short term stretch of games is risky proposition.

To do so would suggest that Carver (6-2-2) was the best coach ever... who missed the playoffs

That Preki (5-4-1) in his first 10 games was a tactical genius for the MLS

That Winter (3-2-5, last 10 MLS games of 2011) and (8-3-5 though CCL and MLS) was the future of this franchise and had this team headed for greatness

Teams generally return to the average, as we saw time and time again when great starts were followed by imploding finishes. This will be Mariner's challenge. Get out of the CCL group stage will continuing his PPG improvement against stronger MLS sides that are chasing playoff spots.

[ManUtd4ever]

I hate to say it guys, but it's starting to look like Roogs was Right regarding the coaching change.

Mariner has been awesome.

I would say that most of us believed that TFC was capable of producing their recent results all along and were drastically underachieving under Winter's guidance this season.

Mariner is getting the most out of this group, and that is all we can ask for, whether people agree with his tactical approach or not.

[jabbronies]

He's been good. Winning against creampuff teams isn't exactly something to celebrate but the fact we didn't lose to creampuff teams is something in and of itself.



Kind of unfair to say - 1-1 tie against NYRB is something to be proud of no?

[Pookie]

^ I honestly didn't think that NY came to play that day. That said, quality side.

My point was in reference to the teams we beat

- Colorado 1-6-0 over their last 7
- NE
- VAN and MTL - even Winter beat them

[Ultra & Proud]

^ I honestly didn't think that NY came to play that day. That said, quality side.

My point was in reference to the teams we beat

- Colorado 1-6-0 over their last 7
- NE
- VAN and MTL - even Winter beat them

You happen to take a look at how NE had been playing at home prior to our visit and their current run of form? Apparently not and also, although we drew, how often do we not get the shit kicked out of us in Houston? And when did we get 2 road wins with Winter? Or allow less than 2 goals per match average? Or win 3 matches in a row? Or get an away shut out? Or come from behind for a victory? Or make a substitution that scored?

And as for Montreal, I recall them beating us this year with Winter at the helm. If we had kept Winter I would say we would have maybe 8 points by now. Maybe less. I had us between 19 and 23 points for the whole season based on our first 10 matches and we had 3 already at that time. Basically it's night and day. One manager knows how to win and the other hadn't a clue.

[ManUtd4ever]

Kind of unfair to say - 1-1 tie against NYRB is something to be proud of no?

No, apparently it's not. If people have an agenda, they will find fault within every accomplishment in order to diminish it's significance and promote their own point of view, regardless of the results.

[jabbronies]

You happen to take a look at how NE had been playing at home prior to our visit and their current run of form? Apparently not and also, although we drew, how often do we not get the shit kicked out of us in Houston? And when did we get 2 road wins with Winter? Or allow less than 2 goals per match average? Or win 3 matches in a row? Or get an away shut out? Or come from behind for a victory? Or make a substitution that scored?

And as for Montreal, I recall them beating us this year with Winter at the helm. If we had kept Winter I would say we would have maybe 8 points by now. Maybe less. I had us between 19 and 23 points for the whole season based on our first 10 matches and we had 3 already at that time. Basically it's night and day. One manager knows how to win and the other hadn't a clue.

Doubt it. I'm sure we'd be in the exact position that we are in. This team isn't as perfect as people like to pretend.

Let's not forget the 2-0 drubbing we were handed in Mariners first game; The 3-0 beat down by Philly; The fact that we were winning 3-1 against Houston and then fucked the win in the final 15 minutes of the game including a 90+ minute goal; 2-2 draw against New England at home loosing points in the 94th minute?

[Ageroo]

I hate to say it guys, but it's starting to look like Roogs was Right regarding the coaching change.

Mariner has been awesome.

He wasn't the only one chapioning this.....as Jack said this was unique to him. He was the most vocal about it and presented the facts. I was on the fence about Winter...he is gone and no skin off my back for sure, but would have loved to see the team turn around with him at the helm. Nothing against Mariner at all though.

And yes...Mariner has been good....awesome remains to be seen. :)

[TFCRegina]

On a somewhat related note, how do i turn off this gd notification system?

[Ageroo]

On a somewhat related note, how do i turn off this gd notification system?

I am going to keep quoting you until you figure it out Lars....:)

[TFCRegina]

Funny you saw it that way. A lot of people on that side of the argument saw it as themselves plus Roogsy against everyone else on the board. Almost as if they were just blindly being led.
This poll has the majority of people in favour of scraping him, no?
http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?31629-Rate-Winter-April-2012/page4&highlight=rate+winter

I do agree this second half of the season will really be the indication of Mariners impact on this team. He is already making it his own in player selection and playing style.

They voted to scrap him on a poll started April 30 that ran through the month of May. The following poll below was started before that and had a first post on April 15th. Note the over 70% keep him rate.

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?31463-Keep-Winter-or-Scrap-Him

Regardless, I'm done on the topic. The point is made. I'm moving on. And how do I turn off notifications. They annoy me.

[Pookie]

No, apparently it's not. If people have an agenda, they will find fault within every accomplishment in order to diminish it's significance and promote their own point of view, regardless of the results.

and examples of this are...?

[ManUtd4ever]

and examples of this are...?

Examples?

How about your analysis of every single positive result that this team has earned under Mariner's watch. It's never a case of what Mariner or the players did right, it's always the poor form of the other team, despite the fact that TFC has played a ridiculous number of matches in the last month. You simply refuse to acknowledge that Mariner just might deserve an ounce of credit for the astonishing turnaround in this team's fortunes since he took over at the helm.

I can understand your frustration with the FO of this organization, but direct your anger at those who deserve it, not the manager who assumed control when the franchise was at an all time low.

Paul Mariner absolutely deserves credit, whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

[TFCRegina]

He's been good. Winning against creampuff teams isn't exactly something to celebrate but the fact we didn't lose to creampuff teams is something in and of itself.

Hanging anyone's hat on a short term stretch of games is risky proposition.

To do so would suggest that Carver (6-2-2) was the best coach ever... who missed the playoffs

That Preki (5-4-1) in his first 10 games was a tactical genius for the MLS

That Winter (3-2-5, last 10 MLS games of 2011) and (8-3-5 though CCL and MLS) was the future of this franchise and had this team headed for greatness

Teams generally return to the average, as we saw time and time again when great starts were followed by imploding finishes. This will be Mariner's challenge. Get out of the CCL group stage will continuing his PPG improvement against stronger MLS sides that are chasing playoff spots.

That's a fair enough point, but the results are still there, where they weren't before. I wouldn't have expected us to beat those teams under Winter.

[Pookie]

Examples?

How about your analysis of every single positive result that this team has earned under Mariner's watch. It's never a case of what Mariner or the players did right, it's always the poor form of the other team, despite the fact that TFC has played a ridiculous number of matches in the last month. You simply refuse to acknowledge that Mariner just might deserve an ounce of credit for the astonishing turnaround in this team's fortunes since he took over at the helm.

I can understand your frustration with the FO of this organization, but direct your anger at those who deserve it, not the manager who assumed control when the franchise was at an all time low.

Paul Mariner absolutely deserves credit, whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

I find it funny that folks rush to praise Mariner, say for beating Montreal and Vancouver and when one points out Winter did too, they say that doesn't count.

Anyways, I have been very consistent. I want a new Exec VP. If Mariner can make the playoffs, I think he earns the right to stay. If he shows just a marginal improvement (say a bump in the standings but gets hammered in CCL), he can stay or go depending on what the new VP decides. If he tanks the rest of the season, he can pick up his paperwork when the new guy takes over.

Of course, that's a dream world. What is likely to happen is a marginal improvement with no change at the top. We'll ignore the shortcomings and the tide that is overtaking the US market and think all is well... renewing tickets happily along the way.

In any event, I've started 2 threads in the last few days. One highlighting where Mariner's team would be relative to others if the season started at the time he took over and the other about coaching records. In both cases, Mariner doesn't come out looking like an idiot. They are simply a statement of fact.

Now to point out he has the same record as Preki or that Winter's end of 2011 was strong isn't a knock on this guy. It's simply highlighting that in the rush to attribute the saviour tag upon him, we might be wise to let things play out before we build the statue.

Mariner might indeed be responsible for the play of Silva or the nice weather we are having. Or it may simply be a short term thing. And none of that changes the fact that our club has opted to go in an entirely different direction to the United States, which is troubling no matter what.

[Shakes McQueen]

Teams generally return to the average,

What average? You can say teams have stretches where they play above or below their true capabilities, but they never return to "the average". Some teams rise to the top, and others fall to the bottom.

And it's odd to call the teams we've been beating creampuffs, when you consider we were below all of them in the standings at the time. According to the stats and the standings, we are the creampuffs.

- Scott

[ManUtd4ever]

I find it funny that folks rush to praise Mariner, say for beating Montreal and Vancouver and when one points out Winter did too, they say that doesn't count.

Anyways, I have been very consistent. I want a new Exec VP. If Mariner can make the playoffs, I think he earns the right to stay. If he shows just a marginal improvement (say a bump in the standings but gets hammered in CCL), he can stay or go depending on what the new VP decides. If he tanks the rest of the season, he can pick up his paperwork when the new guy takes over.

Of course, that's a dream world. What is likely to happen is a marginal improvement with no change at the top. We'll ignore the shortcomings and the tide that is overtaking the US market and think all is well... renewing tickets happily along the way.

In any event, I've started 2 threads in the last few days. One highlighting where Mariner's team would be relative to others if the season started at the time he took over and the other about coaching records. In both cases, Mariner doesn't come out looking like an idiot. They are simply a statement of fact.

Now to point out he has the same record as Preki or that Winter's end of 2011 was strong isn't a knock on this guy. It's simply highlighting that in the rush to attribute the saviour tag upon him, we might be wise to let things play out before we build the statue.

Mariner might indeed be responsible for the play of Silva or the nice weather we are having. Or it may simply be a short term thing. And none of that changes the fact that our club has opted to go in an entirely different direction to the United States, which is troubling no matter what.

I don't recall anyone suggesting that Mariner is the savior of the franchise. I do recall you trivializing the results he has achieved thus far, which is astonishing, considering that his positive results have been achieved on the heels of a MLS record losing streak.

Mariner wasn't given a clean slate or the start of a new season to work with. He was given the daunting task of trying to immediately change the fortunes of a club that was wallowing in the depths of misery, and a roster full of players that had lost their confidence.

[Pookie]

I don't recall anyone suggesting that Mariner is the savior of the franchise. I do recall you trivializing the results he has achieved thus far, which is astonishing, considering that his positive results have been achieved on the heels of a MLS record losing streak.

Mariner wasn't given a clean slate or the start of a new season to work with. He was given the daunting task of trying to immediately change the fortunes of a club that was wallowing in the depths of misery, and a roster full of players that had lost their confidence.

Funny. No one was talking loss of Confidence in March or April. We all talking about guts and passion in beating LA and 45 mins v Santos.

That aside, this club that was wallowing as you say to a record losing streak, was he a part of building it or simply did nothing? He was hired to help and we floundered. Now with a record as good as Preki, all is forgotten?

For me, I don't care that Winter was fired. I feel, my own opinion, that the best interests of the club over the long run is to play an attacking, possessionm based system. I feel this new style has a short shelf life and can't succeed in the face of the US movement to Klinsmann's plan. I don't see any evidence that Mariner can coach that style so he isn't my choice. That said, if the guy canwork miracles he should stay and collect some of MLSE's money. At some point though he will have to go as the wave is going to catch him. Nothing person, its just the way it is.

[Shakes McQueen]

Funny. No one was talking loss of Confidence in March or April. We all talking about guts and passion in beating LA and 45 mins v Santos.

You continue bringing up the CCL. Yes, it was great. I gave him full marks for it at the time, and I give him full marks for it now. Of course there was no loss of confidence at the time - the team was playing reasonably well in those non-league games, and hadn't yet embarked on the historic losing streak that featured our star striker essentially saying we are the worst team in the world at one point. That's a loss of confidence.


That aside, this club that was wallowing as you say to a record losing streak, was he a part of building it or simply did nothing? He was hired to help and we floundered. Now with a record as good as Preki, all is forgotten?

He helped obtain the players, but was he making strategic or tactical choices on a day-to-day basis? By all accounts, no. And now he's getting more out of those same players in league fixtures, than Winter was able to. If he'd had the opportunity to play the ACC games as well, perhaps his overall record would be even better, as we seem to find success in that tournament. Perhaps not.

I actually agree that he should have been fired along with Winter, Cochrane, and de Klerk, for their parts in creating the team that started the season 1-9. Results should have consequences, and putting 100% of it on Winters shoudlers was never fair (although commonplace). But he wasn't, and I'm not going to discount what he has done with this lineup going forward, on the basis that he never should have been given the gig. He's our manager, and he deserves a fair shake.


For me, I don't care that Winter was fired. I feel, my own opinion, that the best interests of the club over the long run is to play an attacking, possessionm based system. I feel this new style has a short shelf life and can't succeed in the face of the US movement to Klinsmann's plan. I don't see any evidence that Mariner can coach that style so he isn't my choice. That said, if the guy canwork miracles he should stay and collect some of MLSE's money. At some point though he will have to go as the wave is going to catch him. Nothing person, its just the way it is.

I still think you're putting entirely too much importance and stock on this supposed all encompassing Klinsmann-fueled possession football "wave" that is coming from the USSF. And by the time that "wave" hits, assuming it ever does and in the exact manner you're suggesting, chances are we will be on to another manager anyway, because the results are at least 10 years away from wearing an MLS jersey.

I continue to be wary of whether Mariner is a suitable permanent replacement for Winter, but I have no qualms with saying he has been a fantastic interim replacement to date.

- Scott

[Soccerpro]

It's tough to grade any coash on half a season. Look at Winter in the 2nd half of last year.

[Pookie]

He helped obtain the players, but was he making strategic or tactical choices on a day-to-day basis? By all accounts, no. And now he's getting more out of those same players in league fixtures, than Winter was able to. If he'd had the opportunity to play the ACC games as well, perhaps his overall record would be even better, as we seem to find success in that tournament. Perhaps not.



- Scott

By all accounts he is getting more out of those players, depending on which period of time you want to compare. Winter was getting roughly the same out of those same players in the latter part of 2011 where he went 3-2-5 for 14 points in his last 10 games.

Was he a bad coach then? Did he lose it over the winter (no pun intended)? Mariner is judged to be getting fantastic set of results as measured over 10 games for 2 more points?

Would you say Winter's 2011 end of season run, which included 14 MLs points, mid week travel 8 times and CCL was equally fantastic?

It is all relative as to which games you want to compare. Now I don't mind a coaching change. Winter's 10 game start this year was bad and a change was a necessity. To change systems though and then be giddy over 16 points shows remarkable short term, selective memory.

Just what Anselmi is counting on.

[brad]

Players often punch above their level when a new manager comes in. I remember reading an article in the UK press a number of years ago that analyzed the results of teams immediately after replacing the manger mid-season, and a improvement over 8-10 games was the norm. After that it was all over the map. Some teams reverted to being bad, others improved.

The main theory was that with a new manager comes a clean slate. Players give it a bit extra to impress the new manager - marginalized players have a new shot at making the team, that sort of thing.

Not trying to take away from the positives. The team has what looks like a new confidence. The run of results is better (still not great IMHO but looks good compared to Winter and overall 6 years of crap).

I agree with Pookie though. I'm tempering expectations. I'm taking a wait and see

[Shakes McQueen]

By all accounts he is getting more out of those players, depending on which period of time you want to compare. Winter was getting roughly the same out of those same players in the latter part of 2011 where he went 3-2-5 for 14 points in his last 10 games.

Was he a bad coach then? Did he lose it over the winter (no pun intended)? Mariner is judged to be getting fantastic set of results as measured over 10 games for 2 more points?

Would you say Winter's 2011 end of season run, which included 14 MLs points, mid week travel 8 times and CCL was equally fantastic?

It is all relative as to which games you want to compare. Now I don't mind a coaching change. Winter's 10 game start this year was bad and a change was a necessity. To change systems though and then be giddy over 16 points shows remarkable short term, selective memory.

Just what Anselmi is counting on.

Stop with the not-so-subtle allusions to myself and others being low expectation-having sheep with short memories. It's false, completely unnecessary, and vaguely reminds me of someone.

Yes, if you look at disparate 10 game sample sizes in a contextual vacuum, Winter had the same success last season. But the important CENTEXTUAL fact here, is that Mariner's run came after we went 1-9 in our previous 10 league games. Is it fantastic on it's own? Not really. Is it fantastic in the context of being abjectly awful in league fixtures prior to the change? Absolutely.

Winter's team last season was middling throughout the league schedule - some good stretches, some not-so-good, but never too far off of solidly mediocre. Mariner took a team wallowing in nothingness (the ACC notwithstanding), and has managed to take the same players (even minus Koevermans now), and get them winning games. And for the record (again), I was fine with Winter hovering around mediocrity last season, because I had accepted that it was going to take some time to assemble the kinds of players he wanted for his system.

And did Winter lose it over the winter? I have no idea, though it isn't unheard of for a manager to lose the room. In fact, all second-hand information we have suggests that Winter wasn't the most popular guy in the room, which can be toxic when the results also aren't there any more. Perhaps he was unable to refocus the team on the league, after the disappointment of crashing out of the CCL. I don't know, but it doesn't really matter. The ensuing results are what they are.

And no, it isn't relative to "what games you want to compare" - we are taking the entirety of Mariner's TFC manager career, and you're choosing to put it up against Winter's best 10 game stretch specifically, despite there being no other contextual similarity.

Lastly, I'm not "giddy" over the 16 points we've earned under Mariner. I'm thrilled we are winning games again, and I give Mariner full credit for pulling this team out of it's tailspin and making them respectable again. Saying I'm "giddy" about Mariner is the height of being disingenuous, considering the multiple occasions I've openly stated I have my reservations about Mariner being our team's future, precisely for some of the tactical reasons you've elaborated on in the past.

The end.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Players often punch above their level when a new manager comes in. I remember reading an article in the UK press a number of years ago that analyzed the results of teams immediately after replacing the manger mid-season, and a improvement over 8-10 games was the norm. After that it was all over the map. Some teams reverted to being bad, others improved.

The main theory was that with a new manager comes a clean slate. Players give it a bit extra to impress the new manager - marginalized players have a new shot at making the team, that sort of thing.

Not trying to take away from the positives. The team has what looks like a new confidence. The run of results is better (still not great IMHO but looks good compared to Winter and overall 6 years of crap).

I agree with Pookie though. I'm tempering expectations. I'm taking a wait and see

We are all waiting and seeing, but that doesn't require us to temper our happiness with the results in the here and now. I've yet to see anyone cry out for a contract extension for the man.

- Scott

[Pookie]

We are all waiting and seeing, but that doesn't require us to temper our happiness with the results in the here and now. I've yet to see anyone cry out for a contract extension for the man.

- Scott

No need. Duane Rollins reported his 3 year extension on May 3rd of this year.

[Pookie]

Stop with the not-so-subtle allusions to myself and others being low expectation-having sheep with short memories. It's false, completely unnecessary, and vaguely reminds me of someone.

Yes, if you look at disparate 10 game sample sizes in a contextual vacuum, Winter had the same success last season. But the important CENTEXTUAL fact here, is that Mariner's run came after we went 1-9 in our previous 10 league games. Is it fantastic on it's own? Not really. Is it fantastic in the context of being abjectly awful in league fixtures prior to the change? Absolutely.

Winter's team last season was middling throughout the league schedule - some good stretches, some not-so-good, but never too far off of solidly mediocre. Mariner took a team wallowing in nothingness (the ACC notwithstanding), and has managed to take the same players (even minus Koevermans now), and get them winning games. And for the record (again), I was fine with Winter hovering around mediocrity last season, because I had accepted that it was going to take some time to assemble the kinds of players he wanted for his system.

And did Winter lose it over the winter? I have no idea, though it isn't unheard of for a manager to lose the room. In fact, all second-hand information we have suggests that Winter wasn't the most popular guy in the room, which can be toxic when the results also aren't there any more. Perhaps he was unable to refocus the team on the league, after the disappointment of crashing out of the CCL. I don't know, but it doesn't really matter. The ensuing results are what they are.

And no, it isn't relative to "what games you want to compare" - we are taking the entirety of Mariner's TFC manager career, and you're choosing to put it up against Winter's best 10 game stretch specifically, despite there being no other contextual similarity.

Lastly, I'm not "giddy" over the 16 points we've earned under Mariner. I'm thrilled we are winning games again, and I give Mariner full credit for pulling this team out of it's tailspin and making them respectable again. Saying I'm "giddy" about Mariner is the height of being disingenuous, considering the multiple occasions I've openly stated I have my reservations about Mariner being our team's future, precisely for some of the tactical reasons you've elaborated on in the past.

The end.

- Scott

Scott, respectfully, giddy refers to things like the Larson article in the Sun about playoffs and grandiose statements regarding these results.

I fist pump all the goals. I bite my nails and I go to sleep happy with every victory.

I just have a short leash for him given his 19 month tie to the club and the fact/belief that Anselmi went in his direction for the short term results.

The reason that I reference Winter's 2011 end of season is that there were few calls for him to be fired and certainly no calls to abandon attacking football. Optimism reigned. Yet, 10 games later, here we are.

My view on Mariner is that he has equalled Winter's end of season results with the same players. If he falters over the next 10, like Winter did and bows out of CCL and has poor league results, would you say that he should meet the same fate?

[Shakes McQueen]

You're talking to me, not Larson.


The reason that I reference Winter's 2011 end of season is that there were few calls for him to be fired and certainly no calls to abandon attacking football. Optimism reigned. Yet, 10 games later, here we are.

Optimism and patience reigned (among most people, anyway), because many wanted to give him the chance to put together his own roster, and implement his "culture" and system.
He was basically given the entire season, and the ensuing off-season, with the expectation (at least in my case - you can even go back and read my posts at the time) that the results would start coming NEXT year. Then we went 1-9, and were out of the post-season picture by lunchtime. As you said - not acceeptable, and certainly a regression over his inaugural season.

There were some calls for him to be fired, the most prominent among them being from Roogsy, who thought essentially giving him the season with no expectations was unacceptable.


My view on Mariner is that he has equalled Winter's end of season results with the same players. If he falters over the next 10, like Winter did and bows out of CCL and has poor league results, would you say that he should meet the same fate?

My view is that he improved upon Winter's results THIS season, with the same players. And pretty much immediately, too. But yes, if he falters and the team strays back into mediocrity or worse, then the should meet the same fate. Even if he doesn't, I'm still not convinced his tactics are our future if we ever want to do more than limp into the playoffs as a low seed.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

No need. Duane Rollins reported his 3 year extension on May 3rd of this year.

Ahh, true enough (I had forgotten). Although at least we've learned via Mo Johnston, that contract extensions don't mean much, if the results are bad enough, or the supporters are loud enough.

- Scott

[Pookie]

Agreed. Off to bed for me

Agreed on the extension commentary too.