PRE/IN/POST GAME TFC @ FC Dallas Wed. July 4th @ 9:00pm-TSN [Archive] - Page 2

Carts

07-05-2012, 08:08 AM

- Kocic's distribution isn't good, but often the team doesn't even setup properly for the long ball they're supposed to play. Guys don't get into position before Kocic kicks, to get the 1st or 2nd ball. A couple of times Kocic was screaming after kicking the ball.

SPOT ON... One time, when Kocic "seemingly" just hoofed it out of bounds, you could clearly read his lips "...where the f*ck in the winger..."

Now, obviously sending it into no-mans-land isn't good, but perhaps the wingers are supposed to sprint into set positions when he gets the ball in his hands for a counter-attack, and Kocic is coached to distribute immediately etc...

The distribution isn't great, but there are always other factors...

He also made an awesome reaction-save on a bullet, and although bobbled a few, kept the scoreline at 1-goal giving us a chance...

A keeper is like a striker - I don't care how you save/score, as long as you save/score!

Oldtimer

07-05-2012, 08:09 AM

You've only just figured out that we're a "below-average" team? The 0-0-9 start wasn't a tip-off?

I'm only measuring the time when Mariner was coach. Are you saying that I should include the 0-0-9 start?

Anyway, he is responsible from day 1 of his coaching stint, because he is the one who is responsible for assembling the team. He doesn't get any grace period from me. Getting players to adjust to 4-4-2 longball shouldn't take much time at all.

Derko

07-05-2012, 08:11 AM

It certainly is. LOL

You may want to read my posts after the one you quoted.

I did, but just have to keep you guys on your toes. LOL

TFC just need to go for the throat right from the get go, giving up an easy goal early just makes it that more difficult.

Hall did have a bad game against Castillo, It was good to see DK bag another goal.
If JDG could only find the net, sometimes it seems like he doesn't want to contribute, but I am biased against JDG a true waste of money.
Frings looked pretty good, but a bit gassed. Kocic made another fantastic stop although he let a few slip early on.
Lambe was o.k. Morgan had some very good crosses and piercing runs. Emory looked good as well. Avilla also tried to create chances.
I'd like to see Soolsma as a starter on Sunday.
Given the heat, I think it was a fair result.
Still not stellar, will that ever happen?

Greatest Ripoff

07-05-2012, 08:16 AM

There's so much negativity on this thread for some reason! Haters gotta hate, apparently!

Not every player needs to be technically brilliant on a football team. Every team needs a Vinnie Jones, Scott Parker, or Dennis Wise. These are the players that keep running and keep trying no matter what. You never see De Jong making a dazzling run, but he's always one of the first on the Man City teamsheet. Dunfield is that player for TFC. He gives his all, keeps running, and deserve credit when its due - and it was certainly due last night.

You seriously can't be comparing Terry Dunfield to Scott Parker? And saying Scott Parker has no technical skill? Even as a child, Parker showed much more skill than Dunfield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpuAAacgnRo

Also, and I know it's only 6 games but Toronto is averaging 1.16 points per game under Mariner. Even under the last poor coach we were averaging 1.23 points per game. I would just like to see this team aim a little higher.

Yohan

07-05-2012, 08:21 AM

If there is no correlation, and expectations can't be heaped on spending then we are suckers when it comes to them spending OUR money
Realistically, can you prove for sure that big money DPs have been better than small money DPs?

Again, I look at DPs as players that take up 350k space on the salary cap, because to me, cap number is what matters and due to the way MLS works. And I rate players as whether they are worth 350k hit on the salary cap. Because whether a player makes 350k or 5 million, it really doesn't matter, according to DP rule.

Pookie

07-05-2012, 08:22 AM

Sure but we're not starting the season like this, we're digging out of the deepest hole the team has ever been kn - worse than the first year expansion team - so it's not going to be pretty.

Actually, its more than that. This team abandoned its vision of possession minded football that they sold to us all through the lead up to the 2011 season and all through. Winter is out, fine. They didn't seek a replacement that perhaps could work better with the players/communicate/etc and continue with that vision. They opted to abandon it and go for short term results (most likely to give them something to hang season ticket renewals on)

I feel completely within the realm of reasonable to thus expect short term results.

When they made the decision, they were 12 points back of the last playoff spot. They are now 14 points back.

If folks want to pop the champagne over a single point in a very winnable game, all the power to you. For me, being outshot (12 to 8 last night) in 5 of 6 games and dropping 3 very winnable games is not good enough. This doesn't justify the change in vision nor the decision to not do a proper manager search. And it certainly doesn't change the focus on Tom Anselmi's lack of leadership ability.

But this team is actually building a little confidence and in this league that isn't dominated by skill, that matters.

Actually, the confidence growing is a great thing. Kocic's comments on Sportsnet indicate a positive vibe. That's to be applauded.

T-boy

07-05-2012, 08:23 AM

You seriously can't be comparing Terry Dunfield to Scott Parker? And saying Scott Parker has no technical skill? Even as a child, Parker showed much more skill than Dunfield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpuAAacgnRo

Also, and I know it's only 6 games but Toronto is averaging 1.16 points per game under Mariner. Even under the last poor coach we were averaging 1.23 points per game. I would just like to see this team aim a little higher.

I was comparing the TYPE of roll Dunfield plays here compared to the TYPE of roll Parker has been playing with his clubs. At Spurs he plays a very conservative roll, hardly leaves the centre circle, and just shores up the midfield. He doesn't do anything fancy, plays short passes, and is there to break down the opponent rather than create anything at all. And that's exactly what Dunfield is doing at TFC right now.

I'm not LITERALLY saying that Dunfield IS Parker or Dunfield has the SKILLS of Parker!

And on your second point - of course, we would all LOVE to be getting more points. But you have to take baby steps. Going from a team who can't win a league game for two months, to a team who is undefeated in 5 games, is a fantastic start to Mariner's managerial career at TFC! The guy has had hardly any training sessions and has spent just as much time traveling and on airplanes as coaching his team. So, its quite amazing that the team are now unbeaten whilst having so many long road trips in blistering mid summer heat!

Yohan

07-05-2012, 08:23 AM

I did, but just have to keep you guys on your toes. LOL

TFC just need to go for the throat right from the get go, giving up an easy goal early just makes it that more difficult.

Hall did have a bad game against Castillo, It was good to see DK bag another goal.
If JDG could only find the net, sometimes it seems like he doesn't want to contribute, but I am biased against JDG a true waste of money.
Frings looked pretty good, but a bit gassed. Kocic made another fantastic stop although he let a few slip early on.
Lambe was o.k. Morgan had some very good crosses and piercing runs. Emory looked good as well. Avilla also tried to create chances.
I'd like to see Soolsma as a starter on Sunday.
Given the heat, I think it was a fair result.
Still not stellar, will that ever happen?
Curious to know why Castillo ended up going up against Morgan in 2nd half, esp when he had success against Hall in first half. Though I think Hall did tighten things up later in late first half

Pookie

07-05-2012, 08:27 AM

Realistically, can you prove for sure that big money DPs have been better than small money DPs?

Again, I look at DPs as players that take up 350k space on the salary cap, because to me, cap number is what matters and due to the way MLS works. And I rate players as whether they are worth 350k hit on the salary cap. Because whether a player makes 350k or 5 million, it really doesn't matter, according to DP rule.

In many ways, I agree with you. I'm not a fan of aging DPs and shudder at the thought that we have a plan in place to replace Koevermans and Frings when their contracts expire next year. Especially considering that the man that signed them and attracted them here is now gone. Mista anyone?

That said, the team, under the resource allocation of Tom Anselmi, have decided that big money DPs offer more value than similar investments in scouting. Therefore, because they are spending my money, I have an expectation that this decision is a competitive advantage relative to the other teams. Otherwise, this resource allocation needs to stop.

T-boy

07-05-2012, 08:28 AM

Actually, its more than that. This team abandoned its vision of possession minded football that they sold to us all through the lead up to the 2011 season and all through. Winter is out, fine. They didn't seek a replacement that perhaps could work better with the players/communicate/etc and continue with that vision. They opted to abandon it and go for short term results (most likely to give them something to hang season ticket renewals on)

I feel completely within the realm of reasonable to thus expect short term results.

When they made the decision, they were 12 points back of the last playoff spot. They are now 14 points back.

If folks want to pop the champagne over a single point in a very winnable game, all the power to you. For me, being outshot (12 to 8 last night) in 5 of 6 games and dropping 3 very winnable games is not good enough. This doesn't justify the change in vision nor the decision to not do a proper manager search. And it certainly doesn't change the focus on Tom Anselmi's lack of leadership ability.

Actually, the confidence growing is a great thing. Kocic's comments on Sportsnet indicate a positive vibe. That's to be applauded.

That's an extremely "glass half empty" post!

TFC were also 7 points off 9th place in the east, now they are 2. That's quite a catch-up, isn't it?

We all know that reaching the play-offs is totally unrealistic at this point. So, lets not compare where we were than and now to the play offs, lets compare where we are then and now to the comparable teams, and the realistic heights we can reach in the league. A mid-table finish to this season would be a good achievement after the start we had. Beat Philly this weekend and we are off the bottom and not many points away from mid-table already! You then have 3 home games coming up shortly, win 2 out of 3 of them (or all of them) and you have mid table. That would be quite some rise in a matter of 2 months from being DEAD last in the MLS!

That's more glass half full :D

Pookie

07-05-2012, 08:28 AM

Fort York Redcoat

07-05-2012, 08:29 AM

You seriously can't be comparing Terry Dunfield to Scott Parker? And saying Scott Parker has no technical skill? Even as a child, Parker showed much more skill than Dunfield.

Also, and I know it's only 6 games but Toronto is averaging 1.16 points per game under Mariner. Even under the last poor coach we were averaging 1.23 points per game. I would just like to see this team aim a little higher.

It's a comparison. They are seldom between equals or most wouldn't get the comparison. Scott Parker, Sir Alex Ferguson, Barcelona. They will all be used because of how recognizable they are not how equal they are to the comparison.

My aim is higher as well.

z0cfHBFhFvY

Pookie

07-05-2012, 08:34 AM

That's an extremely "glass half empty" post!

TFC were also 7 points off 9th place in the east, now they are 2. That's quite a catch-up, isn't it?

We all know that reaching the play-offs is totally unrealistic at this point. So, lets not compare where we were than and now to the play offs, lets compare where we are then and now to the comparable teams, and the realistic heights we can reach in the league. A mid-table finish to this season would be a good achievement after the start we had. Beat Philly this weekend and we are off the bottom and not many points away from mid-table already! You then have 3 home games coming up shortly, win 2 out of 3 of them (or all of them) and you have mid table. That would be quite some rise in a matter of 2 months from being DEAD last in the MLS!

That's more glass half full :D

Dude, I really think we've spoken before. You sound a lot like my account rep.

They are actually 4 off and Philly has a game in hand. Philly has 6 points over their last 6. We have 7 over our last 6. At this rate, we will pass them in 2013. Don't hurt your groin celebrating.

BHTC Mike

07-05-2012, 08:43 AM

I'm only measuring the time when Mariner was coach. Are you saying that I should include the 0-0-9 start?
I'm saying that turning an impossibly, historically, awfully, unbelievably below average team into a pretty much average team is an improvement. That should be obvious but there's enough sophistry around here to obscure things.

And your numbers are off by the way. From my math, based on 2011, an "average" MLS team earned 1.65ppg at home and 1.00ppg away. So, for two home games and four away games the expected return would be 7.3 points. Our 7 points over Mariner's stretch is pretty much average. Again, that's an improvement and doesn't even take into account the condensed schedule.

Fort York Redcoat

07-05-2012, 08:45 AM

Yeah, it's right on par with constantly trashing the new manager for leading TFC to a five game unbeaten streak and a positive goal differential in his first six games.

Rather than wave the flag, why not demonstrate how exceeding the Canadian quota by more than 3x its limit is actually a competitive advantage for our club?

Pook, I see the route taken to this response but please get the quote thats more applicable. This response makes no sense as it looks above.

And the Canadian Question remains... By now I'm sure we have a quote ready for cost distribution amongst our Canadian and foreign players somewhere? I don't dislike the fact we are trying to be the most Canadian team out there but that should obviously mean we should be more like the 3rd cheapest team in the league not the 3rd most expensive.

I hope we agree that it's more a pissoff that over the last year we went through a record number of aquisitions and still had to rely too heavily on a brand new (respectively) academy to supplement the roster.

Simply put- trade better, TFC.

Yohan

07-05-2012, 08:56 AM

A couple of thoughts after watching the game & reading through this thread:
- You could really tell both FBs were tired in this game. Vs. NY, they really focussed & did quite well against some very speedy players down the wing. Vs. Dallas, they were getting easily beat, especially Hall but also Morgan. Sometimes it looked like they couldn't even run at top speed.
Don't know whether Mariner has no confidence in reserves, or he prefers to ride out the lineup that gets him results, but the lads must be really burnt out.

- Kocic's distribution isn't good, but often the team doesn't even setup properly for the long ball they're supposed to play. Guys don't get into position before Kocic kicks, to get the 1st or 2nd ball. A couple of times Kocic was screaming after kicking the ball.

I don't think Kocic's distribution is that bad, but it was like ghost of Greg Sutton was in his boots last game

- Henry was still recovering after an allergic reaction that sent him to the hospital end of last week, that's why he wasn't even on the bench. Otherwise I bet he would have come in 2nd half & Ecks shifted to the right. And I wouldn't like seeing more of Ecks at CB. He's decent because he hustles and is pretty good in 1v1 defending. But he doesn't read the game well and doesn't organize the defense. Look at him standing & watching, and not organizing or getting into the right spot, before the Dallas goal. Ecks also isn't really tall or powerful enough to deal well with high balls into the box. Also not happy with some of Eck's poor passes. He's not the only one, but consider what we're paying for him... I really like Ecks, but I think we got screwed on what we're paying for him. Look around the league, you can get more than one very decent defender for that price.
Eck is 6ft. Not tall enough?
Looks like Emory is the organizer on defence. As much as I rate Emory, and I think he's beginning to show the potential he's got (did anyone else enjoy the deft fake he put on Dallas attacker while controlling the ball under pressure?) but he's like another year away before he's one of two starting CBs for this team. But he's 23

- Dallas far better than their record? No way, they're pretty bad despite having some good players. Amazing how far they've dropped since the 2nd half of last season. Considering their previous game was June 23rd and they should be used to the heat, they didn't look much fresher than TFC (a few individual fast players aside). Let's see how they do once David Ferreira is back and 100% fit again, yesterday was his first game in over a year.
Dallas had 3 of 4 starting defenders out injured, plus their starting striker. Hernandez, Jackson and Ferreira just coming off injuries too. With that kind of injury issues, any team would have issues, esp in depth lacking MLS teams.

__wowza

07-05-2012, 08:56 AM

A couple of thoughts after watching the game & reading through this thread:
- I'm also not a fan of Dunfield getting so much playing time. However, JDG was sick (flu or something like that) and is gradually recovering. They're easing him back in. I have no idea who Mariner would play & how much time JDG would get if he was 100% fit, but it has had an influence in the past few games. I also believe Dunfield really was injured vs. Dallas, in addition to the time wasting. Doesn't he have some concussion history?

hey genuinely looked outt've it. it's like he got up and didn't know where he was for a second, watch the replay, specifically when he gets up and walks off the pitch. his eyes were darting around the stands like he'd never seen them before.

Oldtimer

07-05-2012, 08:57 AM

And your numbers are off by the way. From my math, based on 2011, an "average" MLS team earned 1.65ppg at home and 1.00ppg away. So, for two home games and four away games the expected return would be 7.3 points. Our 7 points over Mariner's stretch is pretty much average. Again, that's an improvement and doesn't even take into account the condensed schedule.

I took the MLS average from 2002-2011 (yes I'm a stats geek, I do that sort of thing).

At HOME:

Teams won 50% of their games, tied 25%, lost 25%

AWAY:

Teams won 25% of their games, tied 25%, lost 50%.

My numbers aren't off, I'm just taking a much larger sample size. :D

It's a tough league on the road, that's why any analysis has to take into account how many games are road games, and how many are home games.

Beach_Red

07-05-2012, 09:08 AM

Actually, its more than that. This team abandoned its vision of possession minded football that they sold to us all through the lead up to the 2011 season and all through. Winter is out, fine. They didn't seek a replacement that perhaps could work better with the players/communicate/etc and continue with that vision. They opted to abandon it and go for short term results (most likely to give them something to hang season ticket renewals on)

I feel completely within the realm of reasonable to thus expect short term results.

When they made the decision, they were 12 points back of the last playoff spot. They are now 14 points back.

If folks want to pop the champagne over a single point in a very winnable game, all the power to you. For me, being outshot (12 to 8 last night) in 5 of 6 games and dropping 3 very winnable games is not good enough. This doesn't justify the change in vision nor the decision to not do a proper manager search. And it certainly doesn't change the focus on Tom Anselmi's lack of leadership ability.

Actually, the confidence growing is a great thing. Kocic's comments on Sportsnet indicate a positive vibe. That's to be applauded.

Well, they did lose nine straight games (and never even had the lead in any of them) before they "abandonded possession minded football." Let's face it, the other teams in this league handled that possession-based game too easily and turned us into the "worst team in the world." And it was embarrassing to watch TFC play with the ball for a few minutes until the other teams decided to take it away from them. Watching every other team in MLS sit on a lead while TFC worried about how they looked was like being on the worst date in the world. Sure, someday that style of play will be great. But the question is, how do we get there from here?

It really didn't seem like a bunch of demoralized kids and a few veterans playing out their last contracts were on the road to success.

Sure, this isn't good enough yet, but at least Kouvermanns isn't calling us the worst team in the world anymore.

Pookie

07-05-2012, 09:12 AM

Pook, I see the route taken to this response but please get the quote thats more applicable. This response makes no sense as it looks above.

And the Canadian Question remains... By now I'm sure we have a quote ready for cost distribution amongst our Canadian and foreign players somewhere? I don't dislike the fact we are trying to be the most Canadian team out there but that should obviously mean we should be more like the 3rd cheapest team in the league not the 3rd most expensive.

I hope we agree that it's more a pissoff that over the last year we went through a record number of aquisitions and still had to rely too heavily on a brand new (respectively) academy to supplement the roster.

Simply put- trade better, TFC.

We are the youngest and outside of the DPs are likely the cheapest.

That last point is perhaps my biggest challenge with the "1/3 of the Roster" being Canadian plan. The fact is that Canadian players count as International players for 16 of the 19 teams in the league. Given that only 8 Canadians in total work south of the border (and they are really good), this means that roughly 1/3 of our roster is not tradable.

I ran stats somewhere in here that showed that of the 70 roster moves we made since the beginning only 6 involved Canadians being moved to another team. That is a function of MLS roster rules and that has nothing at all to do with patriotism.

You can "trade better" if you have bait. If you go fishing without bait you come home with no fish.... a lot of empty beer cans mind you... but no fish

Ajax TFC

07-05-2012, 09:16 AM

You never see De Jong making a dazzling run, but he's always one of the first on the Man City teamsheet. Dunfield is that player for TFC. He gives his all, keeps running, and deserve credit when its due - and it was certainly due last night.

while I sort of agree about Dunfield being effective, but I completely disagree with the De Jong comparison. For one, De Jong actually tackles well and doesn't need to jump players from behind to break up the play. Also he rarely gives up the ball (his passing percentage is among the best in Europe) and he can confidently pass the ball forwards. Dunfield almost never passes forwards if there's an opposing player anywhere near the passing lane.
Lastly, it's funny that you say that De Jong is the first one on the Man City team sheet since he actually spent a fair amount of time on the bench this season

Pookie

07-05-2012, 09:23 AM

Well, they did lose nine straight games (and never even had the lead in any of them) before they "abandonded possession minded football." Let's face it, the other teams in this league handled that possession-based game too easily and turned us into the "worst team in the world." And it was embarrassing to watch TFC play with the ball for a few minutes until the other teams decided to take it away from them. Watching every other team in MLS sit on a lead while TFC worried about how they looked was like being on the worst date in the world. Sure, someday that style of play will be great. But the question is, how do we get there from here?

It really didn't seem like a bunch of demoralized kids and a few veterans playing out their last contracts were on the road to success.

Sure, this isn't good enough yet, but at least Kouvermanns isn't calling us the worst team in the world anymore.

Again though, TFC were 3-2-2 in May under Winter which to me, has more to do with a healthy DK and TF than anything. Same with PM's supposed turnaround. Same with AW's July through end of season stretch last year of 8-3-5. Seems regardless of the system, when the big name players contribute, the team does ok.

And you say teams handled us with ease. While that may be true, they aren't handling SKC with ease. SKC is a viable contender playing the kind of football envisioned.

Anyways, how do we get there from here? We don't. We are going someplace else. There is no use in my pining for it. Done is done and onwards and all that stuff. We can only hope that the same kids and a few veterans playing out their contracts leads to success on this different road.

Fort York Redcoat

07-05-2012, 09:26 AM

We are the youngest and outside of the DPs are likely the cheapest.

That last point is perhaps my biggest challenge with the "1/3 of the Roster" being Canadian plan. The fact is that Canadian players count as International players for 16 of the 19 teams in the league. Given that only 8 Canadians in total work south of the border (and they are really good), this means that roughly 1/3 of our roster is not tradable.

I ran stats somewhere in here that showed that of the 70 roster moves we made since the beginning only 6 involved Canadians being moved to another team. That is a function of MLS roster rules and that has nothing at all to do with patriotism.

You can "trade better" if you have bait. If you go fishing without bait you come home with no fish.... a lot of empty beer cans mind you... but no fish

Sorry I lapsed into the all NA term "trade" and lumped in "aquire". This mega-young, mega-Canadian" team means they aren't spending enough on plumbers but it sounds tricky to do with DP's costing us so much.

Beach_Red

07-05-2012, 09:35 AM

Again though, TFC were 3-2-2 in May under Winter which to me, has more to do with a healthy DK and TF than anything. Same with PM's supposed turnaround. Same with AW's July through end of season stretch last year of 8-3-5. Seems regardless of the system, when the big name players contribute, the team does ok.

And you say teams handled us with ease. While that may be true, they aren't handling SKC with ease. SKC is a viable contender playing the kind of football envisioned.

Anyways, how do we get there from here? We don't. We are going someplace else. There is no use in my pining for it. Done is done and onwards and all that stuff. We can only hope that the same kids and a few veterans playing out their contracts leads to success on this different road.

Hey man, don't give up so easily, if there was a roadmap everyone would follow it ;).

Pookie

07-05-2012, 09:42 AM

Sorry I lapsed into the all NA term "trade" and lumped in "aquire". This mega-young, mega-Canadian" team means they aren't spending enough on plumbers but it sounds tricky to do with DP's costing us so much.

Agreed. Band aids are expensive.

Pookie

07-05-2012, 09:43 AM

Hey man, don't give up so easily, if there was a roadmap everyone would follow it ;).

True. Though they tend to label the "dead end" streets. We just have to read the signs ;)

ManUtd4ever

07-05-2012, 09:58 AM

Rather than wave the flag, why not demonstrate how exceeding the Canadian quota by more than 3x its limit is actually a competitive advantage for our club?

Let me ask you a question. In your opinion, what is the point of developing an Academy in the first place if you deem anything above and beyond 3 roster spots dedicated to Canadians a waste of resources?

Never mind the debate over players like JDG and Dunfield. I'm referring to the viability of signing homegrown players moving forward.

jloome

07-05-2012, 10:15 AM

There's so much negativity on this thread for some reason! Haters gotta hate, apparently!

IMO, turning around a team that went 9 league games losing, to 5 league games unbeaten, is quite outstanding! Ok, Dallas aren't playing well, but a road point is STILL a good result in the MLS against any opponent. Dallas are another team that has had a bi-week while Toronto have now played weekend and midweek 3 weeks running. The players have got to be running on fumes and they are giving heart and soul to this club and to Mariner right now. Massive respect to them.

For me, man of the match was Dunfield. He may not be the "skilled technical player" that some of you desire in midfield - but he's a workhorse. He put his body on the line and didn't stop running all game. After he got smashed in the face (and saved a possible goal) he was sprinting up the field onto a Frings through ball. The guy looked completely knackered by the end! Those of you who was saying he was "acting" needed to look at him on the bench with the ice pack on his face. If he was acting, and STILL acting while off the field, then he deserves an Oscar, as that was the best roll I've ever seen! He definitely wasn't acting. He ran his socks off and deserves praise.

Not every player needs to be technically brilliant on a football team. Every team needs a Vinnie Jones, Scott Parker, or Dennis Wise. These are the players that keep running and keep trying no matter what. You never see De Jong making a dazzling run, but he's always one of the first on the Man City teamsheet. Dunfield is that player for TFC. He gives his all, keeps running, and deserve credit when its due - and it was certainly due last night.

I know many of you won't agree, but Dunfield Man of the Match last night, without doubt.

I agree that Mariner is getting a less-than-fair level of criticism, but it's possible to lose objectivity and be too positive as well, and this seems to be your MO, Tboy.

Try challenging your own assertion. That's how you'll find out if you're really right. Go check his stats in opta for pass completion; go look at where his passes go; check out how many tackles he makes versus receives.

I like his hustle too, but as a footballer, he's a fucking train wreck.

ryan

07-05-2012, 10:58 AM

We are the youngest and outside of the DPs are likely the cheapest.

That last point is perhaps my biggest challenge with the "1/3 of the Roster" being Canadian plan. The fact is that Canadian players count as International players for 16 of the 19 teams in the league. Given that only 8 Canadians in total work south of the border (and they are really good), this means that roughly 1/3 of our roster is not tradable.

I ran stats somewhere in here that showed that of the 70 roster moves we made since the beginning only 6 involved Canadians being moved to another team. That is a function of MLS roster rules and that has nothing at all to do with patriotism.

You can "trade better" if you have bait. If you go fishing without bait you come home with no fish.... a lot of empty beer cans mind you... but no fish

How many MLS rosters we're built through trade? Not just a piece, but a team assembled by trade?

I can't think of that much trading in MLS for this to be such a major sticking point with you.

Richard

07-05-2012, 10:58 AM

After that performance last night i do not forsee Dunfield on the bench anytime soon. PM was acting like it was his son when he came off. Kiind of worries me that JDG is on the bench even though he has not lived up to expectation, i suspect if he had the same tenacity as Dunfield he would be starting the last few games.

starter

07-05-2012, 11:05 AM

Pookie

07-05-2012, 11:07 AM

Let me ask you a question. In your opinion, what is the point of developing an Academy in the first place if you deem anything above and beyond 3 roster spots dedicated to Canadians a waste of resources?

Never mind the debate over players like JDG and Dunfield. I'm referring to the viability of signing homegrown players moving forward.

Well you are asking a couple of questions all in one there.

Re: Point of the Academy - First and foremost it is best to remember that each MLS team is owned by the league itself. Therefore, the over-riding business rationale to have an Academy program in each of its 19 "offices" for the league is to leverage and benefit from a $200M deal with Adidas. Adidas has indicated that its prime interest in MLS is having access to youth to market its wares. It's why FC Dallas has 5,000 Academy "members", mostly through one off clinics and 1 week summer camps. This is going to be a core part of TFC-A's approach because it is the blueprint that the owner wants each of its operators to follow. Like a website strategy, each kid counts as a "hit" and helps sweeten the pot for future deals. This deal expires in 2018 and MLS could double their take if they can double their "hits"

As for the Point of the Academy for Toronto FC - outside of being told to have one, they may find prospects through it. Knowing the Academy's limitations and current focus areas, I have my doubts as to whether they will develop a robust "farm" of players. The U12-13's train only once a week. They are limited by geography as parents of a talented player from London or Ottawa aren't going to come and TFC-A is not scouting top notch players currently playing in the Soccer Academy Alliance Canada (SAAC) system. Older kids were training with Brennan and more than a handful opted not to sign with TFC once they had other options.

Those challenges aside, TFC-A might produce players like Morgan. In which case, it is absolutely reasonable to put them on the first team roster. Morgan is both a terrific player with potential and someone who could conceivably be tradable to a US based team as he really could beat out an available International player for a roster spot.

If TFC wanted to stock its roster with 10 players all of Morgan's capabilities, I've got no issues at all with exceeding the Canadian quota. By them being the best available, they contribute to our success and become tradable if need be. There are no handcuffs. In fact, if they trotted out a Jakovic, Hainault, Morgan, Johnson and a non-DP JDG in a starting 11, you could argue that it was a very strong side. It is for this reason that I think re-signing JDG to a non-DP contract in the offseason should be a priority when it comes to managing the Canadian quota.

Where I have an issue is not scouting to determine if the players we are selecting are the best available. My view is you fill the 3 spots with the best CDNs. Don't waste them on depth players that never play, like MTL does. This helps both CDN soccer and the team. However, for any other Domestic spot, it should not be an affirmative action program. Every spot should be earned and if 7 CDNs beat out 7 Yanks for a jersey, all the power to them. But if you don't scout, you'll never know and that is my fundamental issue with how we operate under the CDN quota.

Pookie

07-05-2012, 11:14 AM

How many MLS rosters we're built through trade? Not just a piece, but a team assembled by trade?

I can't think of that much trading in MLS for this to be such a major sticking point with you.

Well, last year we made 11 trades. The years before we made 4 and 3. If you look at most of the players we have waived for nothing through the years, the bulk are CDN. eg. 9 Canucks waived through 2008-09 season. If we could even just pick up a draft pick for them, that would be something.

ryan

07-05-2012, 11:20 AM

Well, last year we made 11 trades. The years before we made 4 and 3. If you look at most of the players we have waived for nothing through the years, the bulk are CDN. eg. 9 Canucks waived through 2008-09 season. If we could even just pick up a draft pick for them, that would be something.

So we made 11 trades despite having CDN content you condemn to the depths of the 7th hell? :D

But my question remains unanswered? Which MLS clubs were built using trades as opposed to draft/free transfers.

ag futbol

07-05-2012, 11:31 AM

Where I have an issue is not scouting to determine if the players we are selecting are the best available. My view is you fill the 3 spots with the best CDNs. Don't waste them on depth players that never play, like MTL does. This helps both CDN soccer and the team. However, for any other Domestic spot, it should not be an affirmative action program. Every spot should be earned and if 7 CDNs beat out 7 Yanks for a jersey, all the power to them. But if you don't scout, you'll never know and that is my fundamental issue with how we operate under the CDN quota.
I hate to get into the 100 year war with you again on this, but look at the numbers out there.

In the small amount of time I had I looked at the number of players on a few clubs that received more than 100 minutes of playing time this year. I think that should be a reasonable approximation of depth, no? Keep in mind in some cases the figures for other teams are overstated when you take into account the affect of trades and other such things. If what you're saying about our depth is true, we should have dramatically less players earning PT than other teams, and more successful teams should have more depth. Unfortunately neither of those things hold true.

TFC - 19 players more than 100 min PT
MTL - 23 players more than 100 min PT
RSL - 19 players more than 100 min PT
SEA - 21 players more than 100 min PT
KC - 18 players more than 100 min PT
NY - 20 players more than 100 min PT (including Juan Agudelo who no longer plays on the team)
DC - 21 players more than 100 min PT

So again, the apples to apples comparison indicates we are not totally out of line when it comes to the way we allocate our playing time. In fact, if I changed the cutoff to 200 minutes instead of 100 minutes or something similar, we'd be ahead of quite a few squads. Saying the Canadians aren't beating their opposite numbers to be on the squad... who exactly are we referring to? bottom run MLS journeymen who usually don't play. Don't you think it's better that we use those spaces to develop players with high potential rather than stock them with NCAA grads and other players who won't see the field anyway? I certainly do.

T-boy

07-05-2012, 11:38 AM

while I sort of agree about Dunfield being effective, but I completely disagree with the De Jong comparison. For one, De Jong actually tackles well and doesn't need to jump players from behind to break up the play. Also he rarely gives up the ball (his passing percentage is among the best in Europe) and he can confidently pass the ball forwards. Dunfield almost never passes forwards if there's an opposing player anywhere near the passing lane.
Lastly, it's funny that you say that De Jong is the first one on the Man City team sheet since he actually spent a fair amount of time on the bench this season

The karate kick in the World Cup final wasn't a need to do a bad tackle?!

De Jong was injured the first half of last season, and when he was fit again he was played regularly.

But anyways, I'm just trying to make a point that most teams have that one "workmanlike" player on the team. Not every player has to be Messi to be in your starting 11. Dunfield is doing a good job as the destroyer rather than the playmaker. And sometimes a foul is worthy. Taking Thierry Henry out of the game with a bad tackle was a great move. If I was Mariner, I'd tell Dunfield he did a good job with that "tackle"!

ag futbol

07-05-2012, 11:45 AM

The karate kick in the World Cup final wasn't a need to do a bad tackle?!

De Jong was injured the first half of last season, and when he was fit again he was played regularly.

But anyways, I'm just trying to make a point that most teams have that one "workmanlike" player on the team. Not every player has to be Messi to be in your starting 11.Dunfield is doing a good job as the destroyer rather than the playmaker. And sometimes a foul is worthy. Taking Thierry Henry out of the game with a bad tackle was a great move. If I was Mariner, I'd tell Dunfield he did a good job with that "tackle"!
That's pretty scumbag material if you ask me. I wouldn't support a team that played that way.

T-boy

07-05-2012, 11:52 AM

I agree that Mariner is getting a less-than-fair level of criticism, but it's possible to lose objectivity and be too positive as well, and this seems to be your MO, Tboy.

Try challenging your own assertion. That's how you'll find out if you're really right. Go check his stats in opta for pass completion; go look at where his passes go; check out how many tackles he makes versus receives.

I like his hustle too, but as a footballer, he's a fucking train wreck.

I just take what I see within the limitation, and make an opinion. I'm not saying "paul mariner is the saviour of TFC and will get us to win cups and titles", and I'm not saying "Terry Dunfield is a fantastic footballer".

What I'm saying is that Mariner has done a great job "within the time he's been given so far" and given that he's only had a few training sessions with the team and has been on the road for the majority of his tenure so far. I will judge Mariner on the future as and when it happens. If the results level off and TFC start to lose again, I will be as harsh on Mariner as I was on Winter.

Equally, I think Dunfield is a hard working professional, who is probably easy to train and easy to give direction to...so makes him an easy choice for Mariner to pick as a player. Other players (who are either a little stupid or young and niave) probably aren't as easy to play and direct. Given that Mariner hasn't had much time to sit down with players and go through his approach, he will want to pick the players who are easiest to get along with and the easiest to train. So, given all this....Dunfield is playing well and doing exactly what he is meant to do - stop the play of the opposition! I don't think Dunfield is a great footballer by any stretch of the imagination - he's a very average MLS player - much like Gargan, Harden or Borman were at TFC. But sometimes average players fill holes in your team where you need them. Frings, Dunfield, Avila, and either JDG or Lambe are all doing a good job at stopping the opposition right now, so I can't complain much that Dunfield isn't a good football or technician of the game. I'm just being realistic, I'm not all gung ho that he, OR Mariner, are FANASTIC. But "within the limitation that we have right now", but are doing a good job.

I'm realistic, not stupid! :)

Stouffville_RPB

07-05-2012, 11:57 AM

TFC were also 7 points off 9th place in the east, now they are 2. That's quite a catch-up, isn't it?

We all know that reaching the play-offs is totally unrealistic at this point. So, lets not compare where we were than and now to the play offs, lets compare where we are then and now to the comparable teams, and the realistic heights we can reach in the league. A mid-table finish to this season would be a good achievement after the start we had. Beat Philly this weekend and we are off the bottom and not many points away from mid-table already! You then have 3 home games coming up shortly, win 2 out of 3 of them (or all of them) and you have mid table. That would be quite some rise in a matter of 2 months from being DEAD last in the MLS!

That's more glass half full :D

That's fine and dandy if finishing 2nd last got you something. Playoffs are the goal and the team sitting in the last playoff spot is the pace setter. If you are further off of the pace than you were a month ago you are not making progress.

T-boy

07-05-2012, 11:57 AM

That's pretty scumbag material if you ask me. I wouldn't support a team that played that way.

Dunfield took Henry out of the game, and it worked!

I remember watching Oxford United play Tottenham in the FA Cup when Gazza was playing for Spurs. Oxford (who were in League 1 at the time!) beat Spurs at White Hart Lane that day! Oxford had Martin Gray playing. Gray was a terrible footballer and nobody liked the guy in the stands before that day. But he man marked Gazza out the game. Gave him a massive tackle in the first half and Gazza was awful for the rest of the game. Martin Gray won the game for Oxford and everybody was singing his praises. Not because it was pretty, but because he took the "best player in the world" at the time out of the game!

Sometimes you have to be tough in football, and sometimes its very effective.

Not all football is "pretty and slick and beautiful". Sometimes you have to be hard. It's a physical sport after all. I never liked the way Wimbledon played in the 80's. but man were they good at what they did! I never saw many Don's fans complaining about their dirty antics when they were 3rd in the premiership (then division 1)!

T-boy

07-05-2012, 11:58 AM

That's fine and dandy if finishing 2nd last got you something. Playoffs are the goal and the team sitting in the last playoff spot is the pace setter. If you are further off of the pace than you were a month ago you are not making progress.

If you all just want me to admit that TFC are shit then ok, they are shit!

Sorry for being optimistic! :(

Pookie

07-05-2012, 12:00 PM

I hate to get into the 100 year war with you again on this, but look at the numbers out there.

In the small amount of time I had I looked at the number of players on a few clubs that received more than 100 minutes of playing time this year. I think that should be a reasonable approximation of depth, no? Keep in mind in some cases the figures for other teams are overstated when you take into account the affect of trades and other such things. If what you're saying about our depth is true, we should have dramatically less players earning PT than other teams, and more successful teams should have more depth. Unfortunately neither of those things hold true.

TFC - 19 players more than 100 min PT
MTL - 23 players more than 100 min PT
RSL - 19 players more than 100 min PT
SEA - 21 players more than 100 min PT
KC - 18 players more than 100 min PT
NY - 20 players more than 100 min PT (including Juan Agudelo who no longer plays on the team)
DC - 21 players more than 100 min PT

So again, the apples to apples comparison indicates we are not totally out of line when it comes to the way we allocate our playing time. In fact, if I changed the cutoff to 200 minutes instead of 100 minutes or something similar, we'd be ahead of quite a few squads. Saying the Canadians aren't beating their opposite numbers to be on the squad... who exactly are we referring to? bottom run MLS journeymen who usually don't play. Don't you think it's better that we use those spaces to develop players with high potential rather than stock them with NCAA grads and other players who won't see the field anyway? I certainly do.

It's ok to keep the debate going. It's a fundamental issue.

When I look at depth, so players that occupy say roster spots 21-30, there is little to suggest that keeping a CDN in those spots or an American offers an inherent advantage or disadvantage. However, when it comes to recovering an asset in return for a player you don't see as a fit anymore, having a CDN is somewhat of a potential... key word potential... disadvantage.

If a player can be moved for a draft pick vs an outright waiver, that provides some value to the club. Not huge but some.

Where I have an issue with TFC is that at mutiple times this season we have 5 CDNs in the starting 11. Dunfield, Morgan, JDG, Henry and Cann. The distribution of minutes has been going to them in a not so insignificant way, which then makes the question of "best available" very relevant.

ag futbol

07-05-2012, 12:37 PM

Dunfield took Henry out of the game, and it worked!

I remember watching Oxford United play Tottenham in the FA Cup when Gazza was playing for Spurs. Oxford (who were in League 1 at the time!) beat Spurs at White Hart Lane that day! Oxford had Martin Gray playing. Gray was a terrible footballer and nobody liked the guy in the stands before that day. But he man marked Gazza out the game. Gave him a massive tackle in the first half and Gazza was awful for the rest of the game. Martin Gray won the game for Oxford and everybody was singing his praises. Not because it was pretty, but because he took the "best player in the world" at the time out of the game!

Sometimes you have to be tough in football, and sometimes its very effective.

Not all football is "pretty and slick and beautiful". Sometimes you have to be hard. It's a physical sport after all. I never liked the way Wimbledon played in the 80's. but man were they good at what they did! I never saw many Don's fans complaining about their dirty antics when they were 3rd in the premiership (then division 1)!
So my follow up question to you would be: what do you think of teams that dive and roll around on the ground the entire time?

Derko

07-05-2012, 12:54 PM

So my follow up question to you would be: what do you think of teams that dive and roll around on the ground the entire time?

My answer as an outsider to this debate would be that although I don't like the tactic, the tactic is acceptable as part of the game in certain regions and is effective at winning matches and gets the job done, really I don't think you would disagree, so it is a matter of perspective and preference, Some of the greatest teams in the world have been known to embellish somewhat, and it has worked for them.

Stouffville_RPB

07-05-2012, 01:07 PM

If you all just want me to admit that TFC are shit then ok, they are shit!

Sorry for being optimistic! :(

You can be optimistic heck I was one of the more optimistic of the bunch for the last 5.5 years.

I'm just done with trying to find and hang on the one or two positives in an otherwise poor performance.

joeyjones

07-05-2012, 01:10 PM

i see that our possession numbers were up last night as well....no mention of that by the numbers people...very interesting..

Fort York Redcoat

07-05-2012, 01:34 PM

^What were the numbers? Would they impress number people?

Pookie

07-05-2012, 01:41 PM

i see that our possession numbers were up last night as well....no mention of that by the numbers people...very interesting..

Thought you didn't put any stock in numbers other than the scoreline? 1-1 against the worst team in the Western Conference. Undefeated in 5 or 1 win in their last 6... whichever way you want to argue it.

But since you asked:

Possession 47.5%
Passing Accuracy 70%
Shots For 8
Shots Against 12

Marks 5th game in 6 that we've been outshot. Highest possession of the 6. Averaging possession in the 30s over all 6.. Passing accuracy also the highest of the 6 though average completion rate still in 60's and well below earlier season pace.

Overall record under both coaches better when Koevermans and Frings are healthy and in form. As they go, so to do our fortunes.

ryan

07-05-2012, 01:41 PM

47%...

v00d00daddy

07-05-2012, 01:42 PM

i see that our possession numbers were up last night as well....no mention of that by the numbers people...very interesting..

They were up but we were still out possessed by Dallas. So what's there to mention?

T-boy

07-05-2012, 01:43 PM

So my follow up question to you would be: what do you think of teams that dive and roll around on the ground the entire time?

Well obviously I don't like those teams at ALL! But I'm talking about tactically taking ONE key player out of a game. I think that's fine. But you are talking an extreme where players are rolling around and feigning injury etc. I don't condone that. I condone tracking the best player around the pitch and if you need to give him a big of a hard tackle to remind him that you are there, then do so. I'm not talking doing extreme things. But taking one player out of the equation should always be an option for a football game. Kicking lumps out of an opponent, or feigning injury, or wasting as much time as you can, is not part of the game I like.

v00d00daddy

07-05-2012, 01:47 PM

Dunfield took Henry out of the game, and it worked!

I remember watching Oxford United play Tottenham in the FA Cup when Gazza was playing for Spurs. Oxford (who were in League 1 at the time!) beat Spurs at White Hart Lane that day! Oxford had Martin Gray playing. Gray was a terrible footballer and nobody liked the guy in the stands before that day. But he man marked Gazza out the game. Gave him a massive tackle in the first half and Gazza was awful for the rest of the game. Martin Gray won the game for Oxford and everybody was singing his praises. Not because it was pretty, but because he took the "best player in the world" at the time out of the game!

Sometimes you have to be tough in football, and sometimes its very effective.

Not all football is "pretty and slick and beautiful". Sometimes you have to be hard. It's a physical sport after all. I never liked the way Wimbledon played in the 80's. but man were they good at what they did! I never saw many Don's fans complaining about their dirty antics when they were 3rd in the premiership (then division 1)!

Not that it has anything to do with the topic but....

In what world, and at what time, was Paul Gascoigne ever considered anywhere close to the best player in the world? LOL

I've never even heard someone try to make that argument. Lol

Im a for hard tackles but the idea of taking a guy out deliberately with a hard tackle is chicken shit of the highest order.

If you can't play with a guy or a team you tip your hat to him or his team and get better so that next time you can.

joeyjones

07-05-2012, 01:52 PM

Thought you didn't put any stock in numbers other than the scoreline?

that is not what i said...i indicated that you were leaving out an important stat in your comparison of AW vs PM

joeyjones

07-05-2012, 01:56 PM

They were up but we were still out possessed by Dallas. So what's there to mention?

that our possession numbers were better last night in comparison to the first 5 games under PM...and FTR, all winning teams this week were out possessed...

T-boy

07-05-2012, 01:59 PM

Not that it has anything to do with the topic but....

In what world, and at what time, was Paul Gascoigne ever considered anywhere close to the best player in the world? LOL

I've never even heard someone try to make that argument. Lol

Im a for hard tackles but the idea of taking a guy out deliberately with a hard tackle is chicken shit of the highest order.

If you can't play with a guy or a team you tip your hat to him or his team and get better so that next time you can.

See "best player in the world" in quotation marks? Try telling many English that Gazza wasn't best player in the world...you would get a very different view! I don't agree with them, but there are many English fans who would say that he was best in the world, for sure!

And secondly - welcome to the world of sport! Every sport has underhand tactics and hard tackles and devious ways to win. Its nothing new! I'm sure nearly every professional soccer manager has told a player to "take him out the game" to a player at some point or another! That's not just something that happens in hockey...it happens in all sports. When you are playing against a fantastic footballer like Henry, you try every tactic to try and blunt him.

KRO

07-05-2012, 02:26 PM

... agree, I can only prey that the knocks on the head he took, will make him a better player g:D
Despite his limited ability I think Dunfield is a key player on this team at the moment. He reads the game well and never stops running.
If you watch the build up to our goal last night he clearly anticipates the poor initial clearance from Dallas and quickly delivers the ball back into a dangerous area. He deserves as much of an assist as Avila.

ag futbol

07-05-2012, 02:41 PM

Well obviously I don't like those teams at ALL! But I'm talking about tactically taking ONE key player out of a game. I think that's fine. But you are talking an extreme where players are rolling around and feigning injury etc. I don't condone that. I condone tracking the best player around the pitch and if you need to give him a big of a hard tackle to remind him that you are there, then do so. I'm not talking doing extreme things. But taking one player out of the equation should always be an option for a football game. Kicking lumps out of an opponent, or feigning injury, or wasting as much time as you can, is not part of the game I like.
Well unfortunately, nobody's career has ended as a result of diving, but plenty have ended up out of the game due to an intent to injure. I have nothing against a hard tackle and pushing the physical side of the game, but what you're calling strategy here is disgraceful.

I also think when you boil down to it, it's no way to win. I think you're story is a classic example of that, one lowly team beating a better team on ONE day with some rough play. Is that what we want to model our club after? The bumbling lower league team that has the odds stacked against them. If we ran this team properly, we'd have among the most, if not the most resources in the league. We don't have to play like shitheads to win!

Pookie

07-05-2012, 03:21 PM

that our possession numbers were better last night in comparison to the first 5 games under PM...and FTR, all winning teams this week were out possessed...

FTR we didn't win last night ;)

joeyjones

07-05-2012, 03:25 PM

FTR we didn't win last night ;)

i didn't say that we won....i said that all the teams that DID win were out possessed...

Pookie

07-05-2012, 03:33 PM

i didn't say that we won....i said that all the teams that DID win were out possessed...

That's nice. Not all the teams that were out possessed won. see Toronto FC

joeyjones

07-05-2012, 03:37 PM

That's nice. Not all the teams that were out possessed won. see Toronto FC

but all the teams that won were out possessed

Pookie

07-05-2012, 03:42 PM

^ of which we were not one, except for the out possessed front, that happened ;)

Gotta go to soccer now joey, we can pick this up later

joeyjones

07-05-2012, 03:45 PM

That's nice. Not all the teams that were out possessed won. see Toronto FC

or....this week, all the teams that were out possessed either won or tied their games....and, all the teams that out possessed their opponents either lost or tied their games...

are any stats a definitive factor in determining a successful team (points/standings)? i think you can spin the numbers anyway you would like to make a point..

TFC07

07-05-2012, 04:54 PM

Meh. Okay result, but we need to start winning games (put together a win streak) starting on Sunday.

I am not liking Eck playing as a CB. Move him back to RB and get a proper CB. Hall shouldn't be starting.

Hoofball is painful to watch, but if we start winning by playing Hoofball then I wouldn't mind it. We need to hold onto ball more and make other team work for it instead of making it easy for them to get ball back and pressure us more often in our half than they should be.

jloome

07-05-2012, 06:17 PM

They were up but we were still out possessed by Dallas. So what's there to mention?

How much of it was in Dallas' end or Toronto's.

Possession can be a very misleading stat if it isn't accompanied by anything productive.

v00d00daddy

07-05-2012, 06:51 PM

How much of it was in Dallas' end or Toronto's.

Possession can be a very misleading stat if it isn't accompanied by anything productive.

True enough. The disparity in the number of corners won is probably a decent indicator or where the ball was too. I don't really know where to find more in depth stats on things like possession.

I've actually liked the way Tfc have stayed organised in the second half of the last two games.

The only issue is that they played as if they were up a goal rather than tied.

It worries me. Would have liked to see them try to take the game to Dallas a little more but it is what it is.

ManUtd4ever

07-05-2012, 06:58 PM

True enough. The disparity in the number of corners won is probably a decent indicator or where the ball was too. I don't really know where to find more in depth stats on things like possession.

I've actually liked the way Tfc have stayed organised in the second half of the last two games.

The only issue is that they played as if they were up a goal rather than tied.

It worries me. Would have liked to see them try to take the game to Dallas a little more but it is what it is.

Actually, from my vantage point, I thought TFC pressed for the go ahead goal in the final 20 minutes and controlled possession as the clock wound down. It was nice to see that they weren't content to play for the draw on the road.

tfcocd

07-05-2012, 10:20 PM

Hoofball is painful to watch, but if we start winning by playing Hoofball then I wouldn't mind it. We need to hold onto ball more and make other team work for it instead of making it easy for them to get ball back and pressure us more often in our half than they should be.

Mixing up our play would be much better. It seems like the first 10 games, no matter the situation, we attempted to play the ball on the floor and pass through the midfield regardless of the defensive positioning of the opponents. Now we are chipping it over the midfield and and trying to hold up the ball or flick it on for an attacking play. This is having some success and my hope is that once we establish the more direct attacking play and force teams to defend we will then have the opportunity to mix in some more possession based play and get the full use of Frings and JDGs talents.

Oldtimer

07-06-2012, 07:34 AM

Mixing up our play would be much better. It seems like the first 10 games, no matter the situation, we attempted to play the ball on the floor and pass through the midfield regardless of the defensive positioning of the opponents. Now we are chipping it over the midfield and and trying to hold up the ball or flick it on for an attacking play. This is having some success and my hope is that once we establish the more direct attacking play and force teams to defend we will then have the opportunity to mix in some more possession based play and get the full use of Frings and JDGs talents.

Would be nice.

I'm not holding my breath.

ensco

07-06-2012, 07:42 AM

Playing games in daytime (in all MLS cities ex Pacific Northwest) in July and August is inhumane. Forecast for Philly is 102 tomorrow, in the 90s Sunday.

The football won't be, cannot be, any good.

I would sit Koevs and Frings.

T-boy

07-06-2012, 09:32 AM

Well unfortunately, nobody's career has ended as a result of diving, but plenty have ended up out of the game due to an intent to injure. I have nothing against a hard tackle and pushing the physical side of the game, but what you're calling strategy here is disgraceful.

I also think when you boil down to it, it's no way to win. I think you're story is a classic example of that, one lowly team beating a better team on ONE day with some rough play. Is that what we want to model our club after? The bumbling lower league team that has the odds stacked against them. If we ran this team properly, we'd have among the most, if not the most resources in the league. We don't have to play like shitheads to win!

I think if people on this board think that these types of tactics don't happen in professional football on a match by match basis, then they are unrealistic! Coaches telling players to take a player out of the game happens all the time. Getting yellow cards "tactically" happens all the time all over the world. It's not shithead football, its the way of football. The De Jong's, Roy Keane's, Dennis Wise', Vinnie, Jones', to name but a handful, have made a career out of it. Do you think that some of the yellow cards thes players get are just cos they are slow in the tackle? Definitely not - these guys are good players and know how to tackle well. They "take one for the team" sometimes and get booked and make sure that they scare the living daylights out of the opponents playmaking midfielder.

Canary10

07-06-2012, 09:58 AM

I think if people on this board think that these types of tactics don't happen in professional football on a match by match basis, then they are unrealistic! Coaches telling players to take a player out of the game happens all the time. Getting yellow cards "tactically" happens all the time all over the world. It's not shithead football, its the way of football. The De Jong's, Roy Keane's, Dennis Wise', Vinnie, Jones', to name but a handful, have made a career out of it. Do you think that some of the yellow cards thes players get are just cos they are slow in the tackle? Definitely not - these guys are good players and know how to tackle well. They "take one for the team" sometimes and get booked and make sure that they scare the living daylights out of the opponents playmaking midfielder.

A huge part of the game is getting under the skin of your opponents, and you do that however you can get away with it.

T-boy

07-06-2012, 10:10 AM

A huge part of the game is getting under the skin of your opponents, and you do that however you can get away with it.

Materazzi certainly got under ZZ's skin and won them the world cup! It's all part of the game, whether we like it or not!

tfcocd

07-06-2012, 10:52 AM

Materazzi certainly got under ZZ's skin and won them the world cup! It's all part of the game, whether we like it or not!

I would agree, physical play and intimidation is part of the game. Whether that comes from a 'mis-timed' challenge like Dunfields or in a 50-50 ball where the defender is sliding towards the ball and leaves the offensive player no choice but to bail out or get clattered. I think it is good defense to ensure that attackers feel pressured and hurried as soon as they attempt to win and retain possession in the final third.

Canary10

07-06-2012, 11:00 AM

Materazzi certainly got under ZZ's skin and won them the world cup! It's all part of the game, whether we like it or not!

Hmm, seems we agree T-Boy. But Plata has still been pushed out of the team by a formation that leaves him out!!:D

As a player, I love getting at people. First thing I look for is the guys wearing flourescent boots, and make sure I nail them as hard as possible every 50/50 ball I can. And get at them about how they better score a lot wearing those boots... There's an art behind getting people off their game. Which is kind of the idea behind this (http://typicaltfc.ca/target-man-brek-shea/).

Carts

07-06-2012, 11:02 AM

v00d00daddy

07-06-2012, 11:13 AM

Hmm, seems we agree T-Boy. But Plata has still been pushed out of the team by a formation that leaves him out!!:D

As a player, I love getting at people. First thing I look for is the guys wearing flourescent boots, and make sure I nail them as hard as possible every 50/50 ball I can. And get at them about how they better score a lot wearing those boots... There's an art behind getting people off their game. Which is kind of the idea behind this (http://typicaltfc.ca/target-man-brek-shea/).

It goes both ways. The fluorescent boot guys also thrive on burning the defenders who can do nothing but "get stuck in".

Hard nosed players are most certainly needed. That's not the question.

The question is why do we heap so much praise on those guys who are a dime a dozen?

For example...

Tfc player A makes a poor choice in the midfield while under no pressure and gifts the ball to the opposition.

Then the Tfc player gets on his horse and chases the guy who he gave the ball to and slide tackles him and pushes the ball out of bounds.

Now...what do the supporters do?

Clap at the effort.

It drives me crazy every time. It's idiotic and shows how low our expectations are.

The player should be screamed at for makin the bad choice that started it all in the first place. And if he continues to do it he should be taken off and no longer played.

Instead we pat him on the back.

It's like watching a grown man spill a glass of beer on a brand new carpet and applauding him when he gets on his hands and knees to suck it out. Lol

T-boy

07-06-2012, 11:15 AM

Canary10

07-06-2012, 11:16 AM

ag futbol

07-06-2012, 11:18 AM

T-boy

07-06-2012, 11:21 AM

It goes both ways. The fluorescent boot guys also thrive on burning the defenders who can do nothing but "get stuck in".

Hard nosed players are most certainly needed. That's not the question.

The question is why do we heap so much praise on those guys who are a dime a dozen?

I think because the majority of players in the world aren't the technically skilled type. Probably only 1 or 2 percent of players are that skillful and gifted that they can dribble around people for fun. There are hundreds and hundreds of Dunfields in the world, but only several players as skilled as Messi or Ronaldo or Pele or Maradona. So, if you have a player in your team that takes out the threat of one of the world's best players, you praise them for it. I know its "dumbing down the game" in a way - but if you are palying against a team that includes Messi - you FIRST work out how you are going to take his threat out the game. Do you double man mark him, do you get a guy to JUST follow him aroud the field as his shadow, do you always push him onto his "weaker foot" (he doesn't have one, so that wouldn't work!). If all else fails, your Dunfield/jones/Wise/De Jong* gives him a hefty reminder that he can't play pretty football in his pink flourescant boots without being tackled hard occassionally. You then praise them if they "take him out the game".

(*there's no way I'm doing a literally comparison of Dunfield to these others players, before somebody bring that up!).