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Pookie
06-29-2012, 05:40 PM
Let's do MLSE's market research for them.

We all know the issues with this club. From Exec VP on down, the structure and resource allocation decisions are less than conducive to a Championship vision. Roster mis-management reigns supreme.

Ticket prices are nearly double the MLS average in most vantage points. In fact, most areas of the stadium are set at the highest in the league. If they aren't highest they are a close second.

If you are a performance minded individual the results just haven't been there....ever.

What factor(s) would you consider to be most important in your season ticket renewal decision. Choose all that apply:

nfitz
06-29-2012, 06:25 PM
No option for those of us who would renew no matter what.

cementhead
06-29-2012, 06:42 PM
How about if we miss the playoff are seats are free!

ManUtd4ever
06-29-2012, 06:45 PM
The fan base in our city is too knowledgeable to fall for any transparent attempts by the front office to bolster seasons ticket renewals.

The bottom line is, if TFC continues to improve and compiles a respectable record in league play from this point forward, seasons ticket renewals should be fine, assuming MLSE doesn't have the audacity to increase ticket prices.

MG42
06-29-2012, 06:45 PM
first year pricing

West220Side
06-29-2012, 06:48 PM
Success on and off the pitch.




... and free shit.

ryan
06-29-2012, 06:51 PM
prices are too damn high.

Anselmi in charge will never equal us becoming a top club for long stretches of time.

narduch
06-29-2012, 06:53 PM
I'm not renewing without a price decrease. The market isn't there for me to sell my extras without taking a hair cut each time. I'm tired of being a part-time scalper for TFC's gain.

I seriously doubt MLSE lowers prices though. That simply is not the way they do business. If we are lucky they freeze prices.

Besides MLSE is reactive, not pro-active. They wouldn't lower prices until after they were certain the renewals tanked.

Gazza
06-29-2012, 06:55 PM
I was a glutton for punishment renewing as long as i did. I can't justify renewing anymore.

denime
06-29-2012, 07:14 PM
A price decrease by at least 25% or full house cleanup starting with Anselmi.

DavydMT
06-29-2012, 08:22 PM
-- price decrease of 25% and price freeze for two years
-- clean up of the front office
-- no mid season friendlies for two years
-- make sounth end general admission.

brad
06-29-2012, 09:26 PM
I selected a 25% decrease, but honestly, my real answer is that seasons need to become a value again. I can get tickets when I need them at face of the ticket trader here, or on groupon or scalpers often below cost. I can't use all of my seasons in a given year, and the secondary market is more or less dead so I end up eating the cost of tickets.

It's a pure value proposition to me. I'll do the math closer to renewal, but I can't see seasons being worth it.

The other thing would be if they became a hot enough commodity that it would be tough to get into the stadium. But if that was the case - then seasons would move back into the value proposition again as my unused tickets would be in demand.

A DP would or an improved record alone would not convince me, as it would have little to no bearing on my ability to attend the same number of games I do now. Only if either or both changed the price equation.

Firing Anselmi - nope. That's only the first bit. The second bit is they'd need to do the right thing and put the right people into place to improve the club. They could just as easily put another incompetent in place. And again - hate to harp on it, but it's all about the value.

Stouffville_RPB
06-29-2012, 10:10 PM
Playoffs.

Plain and simple. Since I know that isn't happening I'm done already so I guess nothing will get me to renew. I'm tired of the lies that come out of FO mouths. There is only one message that the big wigs will ever understand or take seriously and that message is not renewing and effecting their bottom line. Sucks but it's true.

Good luck to all those that do renew you all really deserve the best.

TOBOR !
06-29-2012, 10:28 PM
I don't see the poll using mobile.. anyway, this is a no-brainer : Anselmi has to go. It's simple. Me or Tom. One of us is leaving.

This town ain't big enough for both of us.

ryan
06-29-2012, 10:40 PM
A missed option on this poll is marketing.

Stop marketing the team to baseball fans who are going to throw beer at our players, act like douchers and be detrimental to the supporter scene. I want soccer fans, TFC fans, at the matches. Especially in the south end.

Cashcleaner
06-30-2012, 12:03 AM
I want Anselmi gone from any position with the club. That's the Number 1 issue I've had for quite some time now and once him and the culture he has brought is gone, then we can start watching some soccer, rather than the endless soap-opera bullshit we've endured for half a decade. After that, an adjustment on ticket prices is a must. It's complete bullshit when Tom and Cesar talk about how TFC is well-priced "for the Toronto market" and, "according to demand". When you look at how much fans in the other MLS cities are paying and calculate all the ADDITIONAL PERKS like free friendlies, special club events, etc., it doesn't take long to see that we are getting a raw deal here in Toronto.

DOMIN8R
06-30-2012, 07:21 AM
Tommy boy must go. There can no longer be faith under his stewardship.

Code Red
06-30-2012, 07:43 AM
I'll be doing away with my seasons at the end of the year. I've already missed heaps of games due to work (I work both weekdays and weekends) and moving tickets is about as easy as a Church St. hooker.

For today's game against the NYRB (Top team in the East Division) I had no takers with the ticket being reduced to nearly 50% off. In the end, I decided to pass the ticket on to an RPB member.

Truth be told, I'd rather spend my hard earned $ on other things than A) lose money B) watch poor football. I'll still be around next year, just not in the full season capacity. Your welcome ML$E.

Yeoman
06-30-2012, 08:50 AM
i dropped my seasons in year three knowing full well i wasn't going to have to worry about trying hard to get tickets anymore due to the insults they were putting on the field and the attitude the front office had even then.

tiberius
06-30-2012, 09:50 AM
I want Anselmi gone from any position with the club.... After that, an adjustment on ticket prices is a must. It's complete bullshit when Tom and Cesar talk about how TFC is well-priced "for the Toronto market" and, "according to demand". When you look at how much fans in the other MLS cities are paying and calculate all the ADDITIONAL PERKS like free friendlies, special club events, etc., it doesn't take long to see that we are getting a raw deal here in Toronto.

Unfortunately it is not complete bullshit - Tommy A. and Cesar are absolutely correct. After 6 years of incredible bullshit, incompetence and price gouging, the worst team in the world gets 18000+ paid attendance at the height of their losing streak. Apparently there are 4,000 supporters plus 14000+ idiots in T.O. who continue to pay for the pleasure of being hosed each and every game!. I can't explain it, but with almost 19000 paid seats, that means they are priced according to demand. Any franchise would kill for these numbers. Cash, you will never see the type of extras that other teams offer as long as MLSE is in charge - never. History speaks for itself.

What you are talking about and wanting is fairness - something an owner with a conscience or someone with a love/interest in football might do. The sociopathic MLSE corp will never, ever, even slightly resemble the type of ownership you desire.

Auzzy
06-30-2012, 10:51 AM
^ As many have said, demand has dropped noticeably, even if ticket sales are currently still OK compared with many MLS markets. The remainder of the "waiting list" was torched during the last off-season. More & more people are realizing that there is absolutely no risk to dropping seasons tickets: you can get tickets for any game that you want through a variety of channels, and you can sign up for seasons tickets again whenever you want. And I wouldn't bet on the announced "paid" attendance or number of season ticket holders anyway -- likely a variety of gimmicks there.

Therefore there is a real risk of demand & especially season ticket sales dropping much further, despite all the people that you so nicely label "idiots."

tiberius
06-30-2012, 11:20 AM
^ As many have said, demand has dropped noticeably, even if ticket sales are currently still OK compared with many MLS markets. The remainder of the "waiting list" was torched during the last off-season. More & more people are realizing that there is absolutely no risk to dropping seasons tickets: you can get tickets for any game that you want through a variety of channels, and you can sign up for seasons tickets again whenever you want. And I wouldn't bet on the announced "paid" attendance or number of season ticket holders anyway -- likely a variety of gimmicks there.

Therefore there is a real risk of demand & especially season ticket sales dropping much further, despite all the people that you so nicely label "idiots."

I agree with you - but MLSE will not be proactive - if paid attendance drop significantly, they will react - but only with the absolute bare minimum to try to rectify the situation. They don't care about after market demand - they are focused on paid seats, preferably "prepaid". As long as folk will pay a year in advance for seats they do not use, MLSE is not going to get too bent out of shape. Perhaps "idiot" is too strong a word - perhaps "way more money than me" would better describe those who regularly do not attend games that they have paid for... If I was wealthy, I would maintain a couple of nice pairs of tickets, regardless of how the team was doing... As you point out, the real risk is if MLSE has underestimated the angst in the fan base, and if that translates to a mass cough-up of Season tickets.

At this point I am starting to think that MLSE can actually get away with this unending circus year after year - an absolute ton of people are still buying season tickets - it sure seems like Tommy has the correct read on the buying public... he has so far, at least... I would like to see him get his comeuppance for squandering a beautiful thing but...

sidvan
06-30-2012, 11:25 AM
Unless there is a significant price drop - i am done. I started with 4 went to 6 and now down to 2. Will still go and pick up tix along the way.

Derko
06-30-2012, 11:59 AM
Some success on the field would help,

Joe Kool
06-30-2012, 12:07 PM
Tickets are readily available any game you want, on field play is weak most days and I can't sell unused seats most times like everyone else so not much reason to stay a STH. I voted for a price decrease in this poll but that is only a dream I think because it is not that simple in the business world when dealing with shareholders like MLSE do. It's all about increasing revenue for shareholders so not likely you will ever see a step backward. I can see them adding in more "incentives" before they decrease the prices. Right now there is no incentive really so it will be interesting to see what they do. Getting the team winning can help alot though. Look at the last NYRB game against DC. They were sold out which surprised me but I guess they are doing that more these days. When NY was trolling along the bottom of the table they had maybe 5000-10000 at the most for majority of games. Now they are at the top of the table and selling out games. That doesn't mean if we start winning I am all for a price increase or anything like that. I think they increased the prices enough for the next several years already. I think the best we can hope for with them is another price freeze but I am not holding my breath for anything better. This is actually the first year though that I am thinking about giving up my seats. I wanted it to be a father/son thing for years to come but I can still do that with pairs here and there. No need to be bent over a barrel for MLSE. Will make that call on the last day of the renewal period. Even if you are going to renew everyone should hold out until the last couple of days to see them squirm and hopefully make some proper changes. Again...not holding my breath.

boozilla
06-30-2012, 01:32 PM
A 25% price reduction isn't enough for me. I need to be convinced that I won't be wasting my time and money. Only a stellar season from now on and Anselmi gone could change my mind.

Soccer Mom
06-30-2012, 02:07 PM
Anselmi to go and the signing of a big star. Not a washed up, end-of-his-career European, but someone in the prime of their career.

UltraSuperMegaMo
06-30-2012, 02:21 PM
I'll renew at my current price point or less. No disrespect to those who feel differently, I still just like having a team to support and follow.

flatpicker
06-30-2012, 02:51 PM
I might drop one of my season seats.
We'll see how things go.
But too often I have gone to games solo and let my other ticket go to waste.
Toronto really needs to have a strong finish to the year.
And/or the signing of someone really special.

bones
06-30-2012, 03:00 PM
roof over the south end for projection of 1 voice. it might pull us back together.

RedsYNWA
06-30-2012, 03:10 PM
sexy boys dancing at halftime

jiforio
06-30-2012, 03:46 PM
No point in renewing, as it costs way too much money. I have front row seats and still can't get buyers for games I can't attend. (I refuse to sell them for the 50% off that all the buyers want) Which essentially means that anyone could get a seat anywhere whenever they want. Even scalpers are all selling tickets for waaaayyy below cost. I'm MUCH better off just buying tickets from numerous other sources, for only the games I want to attend, and for a fraction of the cost. TFC front office has really messed up big time!

brad
06-30-2012, 10:16 PM
A Hip Hop Dance Crew! I wasn't planning on renewing, but after seeing that before kick off, I'm in. I might even upgrade my seats.

Pookie
07-01-2012, 07:11 AM
^ maybe we could play music when we are on D-Fence. clap clap clap. D-Fence.

On stoppages, maybe they could pan the crowd to show people having a good time in all the atmosphere or at least advise us that it is time to "Make Noise Now"

T-boy
07-01-2012, 09:34 AM
I would renew my season ticket if TFC lost every game and conceded 500 goals a season. I love TFC and I'll always renew. End of story. TFC through and through. I bleed red and white.

T-boy
07-01-2012, 09:35 AM
Why isn't there an option for those of us who would renew no matter what, just cos they love TFC and watching live professional football?

Suds
07-01-2012, 09:45 AM
Tommy A needs to step away from TFC and not be involved in any decision making capacity with the club moving forward.

MLSE recruits and hires an experienced football person to run and lead the club.

Free beer days.

mw83krk
07-01-2012, 09:51 AM
I've said I won't be renewing my half season package every year, and every year I've reluctantly done so. Coming in from Niagara, and having a ton of new expenses this year (wedding and what usually follows) I think this will likely be my last year. I'll still go, but on a game-to-game basis, as tickets are readily available. Taking a 50% hit on games that I cannot attend is no longer going to cut it -- sorry mlse, but if I'm going to donate to a charity, it sure as hell won't be you.

Suds
07-01-2012, 09:54 AM
Why isn't there an option for those of us who would renew no matter what, just cos they love TFC and watching live professional football?

Because this is about people who feel TFC has taken advantage of their relationship with fans. This is about what they feel the club needs to do to rebuild that relationship.

People who renew regardless means TFC don't have to do anything. Thy can quite literally keep treating customers poorly, put out a shit product, and still make boat loads of money.

Oh, I guess I should add to my list that it would be nice if my ticket rep would return an email. Some basic customer service might be a good start to get paying customers to renew.

dow117
07-01-2012, 10:49 AM
I haVE 4 SEASONS SINCE DAY 1 AND i WILL NOT BE RENEWING. eVEN WHEN i GIVE THE TIX AWAY FOR A GAME .. I CHECK ON ACCT MGR AND SEE THAT THEY HAVE NOT EVEN BEEN USED. I STILL SUPPORT TFC BUT TIX WILL BE EASY TO GET MOST GAMES FOR THE FORESEEABLE: BUT THE CONSTANT DISSAPOINTMENT AND THE POORER ATMOSPHERE NOW IS WEARING ME DOWN COZ I HAVE TO INVEST ABOUT 6 HOURS TO GET TO AND FROM GAME, SO ITS A LONG DAY OF DISSAPOINTMENT.

brad
07-01-2012, 11:03 AM
Not renewing has no bearing on me going to games.

Unless there is sharp uptake in demand on the secondary market I'll attend just as many games as I normally do, pay a fraction of what I do for my seasons, not throw money away for the tickets I can't use.

There have been almost entirely empty rows around where I sit now for the last 3 years, so I can still go enjoy game day with the folks in my section that I know (if they renew, which most I've talked to aren't).

For me - it's nothing more than the bottom line. Seasons are no longer a good value.

james
07-01-2012, 12:17 PM
i would be happy to renew tickets at the same price as they are now if they did a big renovation on BMO field to make it one of the better stadiums in MLS. BMO could do with a major face lift. Otherwise if there is no plans for any renovations, i would like to see tickets dropped by at least 25%.

Also they have to get ride of Anselmi. Another major issue at TFC!

asterix606
07-01-2012, 02:05 PM
I also have two season tickets and will definitely not be renewing them. Pretty much for all the same reasons mentioned in these posts.

Bonus not to renew:

-I'm saving lots of money!
-No more stress of trying to sell my tickets when I cant go.
-I'll pick a few games to attend a year, and get to change seating areas every time.

Question:

Is it true that MLSE takes a 35% cut if they sell it on the TFC site? If it`s true, wow! They really don't give a shit about fans!! More reasons not to renew!

tiberius
07-01-2012, 10:09 PM
I would renew my season ticket if TFC lost every game and conceded 500 goals a season. I love TFC and I'll always renew. End of story. TFC through and through. I bleed red and white.

Interesting tense you used - you would renew, ... if you had seasons... I don't believe that you bleed red and white, although it is clear that you are a Tom Anselmi apologist. You show no empathy for those who have put up with six years of MLSE shenanigans. You rip Plata when he is loaned out and tells the truth and says goodbye to everyone... bah! You say you will mindlessly renew your tickets forever - that's great, except that I do not believe that you have season tickets, nor have you have them since day one. Just my opinion, of course...


... Anselmi brought Mariner to the club as well as Winter! So, credit where credit is due, you have to give kudos to whoever (Anselmi) brought Mariner here right now!:facepalm:


It actually sounds like Plata is throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, and its nothing to do with Mariner! ... If I was his manager I would be saying the same things as Mariner right now.
.... Mariner should discipline Plata for his public statements.

Fort York Redcoat
07-02-2012, 08:41 AM
I would renew my season ticket if TFC lost every game and conceded 500 goals a season. I love TFC and I'll always renew. End of story. TFC through and through. I bleed red and white.



Why isn't there an option for those of us who would renew no matter what, just cos they love TFC and watching live professional football?

You have a point. The wording in the poll question doesn't necessarily make one think all the options would be negative but they are.


Interesting tense you used - you would renew, ... if you had seasons... I don't believe that you bleed red and white, although it is clear that you are a Tom Anselmi apologist. You show no empathy for those who have put up with six years of MLSE shenanigans. You rip Plata when he is loaned out and tells the truth and says goodbye to everyone... bah! You say you will mindlessly renew your tickets forever - that's great, except that I do not believe that you have season tickets, nor have you have them since day one. Just my opinion, of course...

:facepalm:

T-boy has every right to voice his satisfaction in remaining optimistic as a long time supporter and your accusation of him lying about his being a STH is uncalled for and does little for the discussion.

We all have different tipping points. We all need to respect that.

Nuvinho
07-02-2012, 04:58 PM
dropping 2 of my 6 tickets, gonna save me about $2k.

Belfast_Boy
07-02-2012, 07:46 PM
probably won't renew. don't need to. there's enough tickets available for every game.

the waiting list for tickets is gone. where'd the 24k go? were they ever there? did that many people get seats or lose interest? something is rotten in Denmark. i can be swayed with a couple of things, a discount and improvement in the FO.

they should throw in some swag too. how much would t-shirts cost? yes I want more than a scarf and a cheap ass container!

Rudy
07-02-2012, 08:01 PM
I haVE 4 SEASONS SINCE DAY 1 AND i WILL NOT BE RENEWING. eVEN WHEN i GIVE THE TIX AWAY FOR A GAME .. I CHECK ON ACCT MGR AND SEE THAT THEY HAVE NOT EVEN BEEN USED. I STILL SUPPORT TFC BUT TIX WILL BE EASY TO GET MOST GAMES FOR THE FORESEEABLE: BUT THE CONSTANT DISSAPOINTMENT AND THE POORER ATMOSPHERE NOW IS WEARING ME DOWN COZ I HAVE TO INVEST ABOUT 6 HOURS TO GET TO AND FROM GAME, SO ITS A LONG DAY OF DISSAPOINTMENT.

How do you check if ur tickets have been used or not?

Parkdale
07-03-2012, 08:41 AM
the waiting list for tickets is gone. where'd the 24k go? were they ever there? did that many people get seats or lose interest? something is rotten in Denmark!

The whole problem with the waiting list, and something I've pointed out for a long time -- it's didn't cost a penny to be on the list, so a lot of people signed up. If it cost $1 and was refundable when you bought tickets, the list would have been cut into a fraction.

Also, it was well known that if you were on the list, and it was finally your turn to buy, the only tickets available to you were the most expensive ones in the stadium. You options were to buy them and try to move sections the next year, or pass on them and lose you place on the waiting list.

If the team's quality had imrpoved after the first year, then we might still have a waiting list, but with nothing but year after year of low quality product.....

I'll renew my tickets though. I'm here though thick and thin.

T-boy
07-03-2012, 09:15 AM
Interesting tense you used - you would renew, ... if you had seasons... I don't believe that you bleed red and white, although it is clear that you are a Tom Anselmi apologist. You show no empathy for those who have put up with six years of MLSE shenanigans. You rip Plata when he is loaned out and tells the truth and says goodbye to everyone... bah! You say you will mindlessly renew your tickets forever - that's great, except that I do not believe that you have season tickets, nor have you have them since day one. Just my opinion, of course...

:facepalm:

Section 113 row 15. Come find me! I have missed around 5 games in all TFC seasons. I have no idea why you doubt that I'm not a season ticket holder!

SirBobSaget
07-03-2012, 10:18 AM
How do you check if ur tickets have been used or not?

Go to
-> Manage my tickets
-> To the right of each opponent/Date you'll see a link for 'view history'
-> On next screen there is a Confirmation # column, will have something like "Ticket Used"

OfficeGuy
07-03-2012, 10:57 AM
They should offer a special discount to card carrying TFC Supporters

Jack
07-03-2012, 11:03 AM
I am very much teetering on the edge on this one. The price just isn't as easy to justify anymore.

Belfast_Boy
07-03-2012, 11:14 AM
The whole problem with the waiting list, and something I've pointed out for a long time -- it's didn't cost a penny to be on the list, so a lot of people signed up. If it cost $1 and was refundable when you bought tickets, the list would have been cut into a fraction.

Also, it was well known that if you were on the list, and it was finally your turn to buy, the only tickets available to you were the most expensive ones in the stadium. You options were to buy them and try to move sections the next year, or pass on them and lose you place on the waiting list.

If the team's quality had imrpoved after the first year, then we might still have a waiting list, but with nothing but year after year of low quality product.....

I'll renew my tickets though. I'm here though thick and thin.

that's cause you work for them......

if I don't renew I'll just pick up tickets through the trader. they can't drive me completely out. but I'm not sure I want to give them money for seasons tickets.

T-boy
07-03-2012, 11:17 AM
I am very much teetering on the edge on this one. The price just isn't as easy to justify anymore.

I think it really depends on where you sit at BMO. I don't think I could justify paying anything more than I'm paying in the supporters section. I don't remember what I paid last season, but its $400 or less if I remember. Bit if I was sitting at the side and paying in the thousands, I wouldn't see the value in paying that kind of money.

I'm fortunate to have a supporters section seat and I will never give that up. If I was sat elsewhere it may be a different case though.

Jack
07-03-2012, 11:20 AM
I think it really depends on where you sit at BMO. I don't think I could justify paying anything more than I'm paying in the supporters section. I don't remember what I paid last season, but its $400 or less if I remember. Bit if I was sitting at the side and paying in the thousands, I wouldn't see the value in paying that kind of money.

I'm fortunate to have a supporters section seat and I will never give that up. If I was sat elsewhere it may be a different case though.

My seats are in Row 3 of section 112. Lowest price point in the stadium. Still having a tough time justifying paying for them given the amount of shit we've been fed.

Carts
07-03-2012, 11:29 AM
I am very much teetering on the edge on this one. The price just isn't as easy to justify anymore.

I am in the exact same position...

My tickets are fairly expensive though, dark grey, and its not so much the actual cost but the waste...

When demand is high and I have to miss a game, I could easily sell the tickets for face or even a little below so that my money wasn't wasted. Now, I have to give them away - so every missed match is $102 lost...

I love the club, love my seats, don't want to give them up - but with the low demand, and high number of empty seats, it becomes almost foolish to keep them (because I do miss a fair share of games due to work some summers)...

A few seasons ago I got a cold call from the Argos asking me to become a SSH again. I told them no b/c I couldn't justify paying for 8-games if I only made 5-games - and for those 5-games, there's 35,000 empty seats waiting for me to buy a ticket... One of the biggest perks of season-seats is being guaranteed a ticket - if the stadium is half-empty, you're still guaranteed a ticket... You no longer need to pay for that assurance...

I don't want to give up my seats, I really don't - but it might become a situation where I would be foolish to keep them, based on missing matches & the ready availability of game-day tickets... :(

T-boy
07-03-2012, 11:29 AM
My seats are in Row 3 of section 112. Lowest price point in the stadium. Still having a tough time justifying paying for them given the amount of shit we've been fed.

there are few different "camps" that supporters are in as far as WHY they retain their season tickets.

I'm in the camp that goes to games irrespective of front office and club politics. I just love football and LOVE going to games. I try not to take any notice of what goes on in the front office and I certainly don't care about Anselmi or Cockrane or anybody else other than the first team squad and the manager of them. I go irrespective of result and I would chant and scream my head off at the first team as they play in front of me.

I know a lot of people are different to me, and CARE deeply about the front office politics and "what we've been fed". I'm just not into that. I don't think that makes me any less of a supporter than some people.

I can see WHY people would get offended/put off by the politics of the club, but I can also see why its best to sometime distance yourself from all that business. I love the on field play and I LOVE talking football tactics. That's why I go to BMO and that's why I love TFC - cos the tactics/formations/players side of things just turns me on (so to speak!).

I can also see why some (more fickle) fans would ONLY renew if TFC are a winning team. I'm not one of them, and I go if TFC are losing and winning, but I will enjoy it as much as anybody else when TFC have a good team and win something important (whenever that might be!).

So, really we are all in different camps as to why we are at the stadium, and why we are here (on a TFC forum) etc.

Really this poll could be "why do you have a season ticket?" and the answers would really show WHY people renew in the first place. Some people have a season ticket as they just love live football (like me), others because they want a winning team, others because they get involved with the club politics and front office stuff.

Pookie
07-03-2012, 12:00 PM
t-boy, I actually agree with you on the winning front. For the longest time, I have been trying to avoid making any connection between winning and ticket prices. Fans that want an improved "product" to justify their seat prices are dangerous because that leads itself to the belief that winning will justify higher prices. Get set for some terrific playoff pricing boys and girls.. if we ever make it.

Ticket prices need to be a function of the market. Granted there is a local aspect to it but given this is a franchise in a single entity league, prices relative to other MLS clubs matters. If fans in one city pay nearly double or triple that of fans in other cities than you run into a perception of value.

While Leaf fans pay more than others, their "investment" is somewhat protected in that Personal Seat Licenses ensure that renewal rates will be high virtually every year. If they don't renew, they forfeit their PSL and future season tickets.

Here, high prices and declining service lead to a question of value. I'm in the same boat as many. If I can't go, I'm out cash. With kids in various soccer tournaments and games, the prospect of attending every match is dwindling. I can't find a buyer for my seats. Even at half price.

So, why not join the thousands and simply buy up seats that no one can use? At the very least, pay cost price on some of the 4,500 tickets that go unsold every game? I could attend the same amount of matches and pay half what I am paying now.

In essence, what many are doing is simply showing MLSE that prices need to be reset to the MLS average. I am prepared to pay half what I pay now and give up season tickets to buy from the exchange or redflagdeals or some other means. If MLSE resets ticket prices to the MLS average, they can instead have my money and may even create a full house in the process.

ag futbol
07-03-2012, 12:02 PM
I'm in the camp that goes to games irrespective of front office and club politics. I just love football and LOVE going to games. I try not to take any notice of what goes on in the front office and I certainly don't care about Anselmi or Cockrane or anybody else other than the first team squad and the manager of them. I go irrespective of result and I would chant and scream my head off at the first team as they play in front of me.

So do I and I enjoy the similar things to what you listed above, but personally, I can separate my need to watch football from my need to watch TFC.

I've never had seasons but I've always picked up a fair number of single game tickets within a year. Probably peaked around year three when I went to something like 15 games in total. It has been a steady decrease since then. I was hoping this year would be a good opportunity to go to a few more games and enjoy the availability of cheaper seats... never peaked my interest giving our poor form.

Beyond my own distaste for how we've played, I think part of the reason I've reduced my spend is that I've seen when so many un-happy people who have dealt with TFC at all levels. Players, coaches, fans, etc... this team has been a lightning rod for complaints and incompetence. In the end, if I decide I'll put up with this and continue to spend money regardless of how the team is run, I'm empowering MLSE to run the team the same way it has over the last six years.

T-boy
07-03-2012, 02:20 PM
So do I and I enjoy the similar things to what you listed above, but personally, I can separate my need to watch football from my need to watch TFC.

I've never had seasons but I've always picked up a fair number of single game tickets within a year. Probably peaked around year three when I went to something like 15 games in total. It has been a steady decrease since then. I was hoping this year would be a good opportunity to go to a few more games and enjoy the availability of cheaper seats... never peaked my interest giving our poor form.

Beyond my own distaste for how we've played, I think part of the reason I've reduced my spend is that I've seen when so many un-happy people who have dealt with TFC at all levels. Players, coaches, fans, etc... this team has been a lightning rod for complaints and incompetence. In the end, if I decide I'll put up with this and continue to spend money regardless of how the team is run, I'm empowering MLSE to run the team the same way it has over the last six years.

I, of course, would "prefer" the team I watch every week to be fantastic and always get results. But I know that's unrealistic, and its partly that I've NEVER followed an "always winning club". My mentality/reality is that when I become fan of a team I have to go through a lot of pain and get a few highs. I think that's the same for the majority of football fans too. Hardly any fans always have a winning team to follow (save for Man Utd, Barca and Real fans, maybe Celtic and Rangers (up until now!)).

I understand that TFC are putting up prices, and I'd love a winning club to go along with that. I may not be a "fighter" in terms of demanding a fantastic product, but I just realise/think that it takes a lot of time before YOUR club is a winning club.

Football is all about those small highs in among a lot of low points. It's all about that ONE cup run, and that ONE season when it all goes perfectly. And in between its a lot of watching hard football, shouting at the players and willing them to be better.

I followed my English team (where I was born and bred) for over ten season as a season ticket holder and watched them through ONE promotion season. Meanwhile they had 4 relegations (out of the football league altogether at one point!). So, I followed them, even though they sucked, and the owner was gauging the fans dry in the process. But I never waivered and kept going to the games.

Some might call me a sucker. But just the act of going to watch a football game in a stadium is like taking a drug, for me. I LOVE going. I LOVE shouting at the players and willing them on. I never EVER assume that "my team" is going to be a success. Part of the appeal of football is that its a massive amount of frustration building to that short orgasm of happiness (that cup win, that league win).

THAT is why I will always renew my season ticket! What I get out of game days is hard to put into words, really. And when I get addicted to a club, I won't ever back down and always go to the games. TFC are just a part of my life now as Oxford are back in England.

Auzzy
07-03-2012, 05:14 PM
Go to
-> Manage my tickets
-> To the right of each opponent/Date you'll see a link for 'view history'
-> On next screen there is a Confirmation # column, will have something like "Ticket Used"

This is an interesting feature, never noticed it before. Unfortunately it seems to be very unreliable. I just checked: for many games where I know that all my tickets were used, it will only show one of them to be used. For other games, the information is correct.

Nuvinho
07-03-2012, 07:04 PM
You notice how quiet the FO is with CL, they announced that STH would get first crack at the Aug 1st and Aug 28th games, but didn't announce the prices yet. They are supposed to go sale tomorrow, yet haven't told anyone the price levels. I think they are scared to price them like before.

jazzy
07-03-2012, 07:39 PM
You notice how quiet the FO is with CL, they announced that STH would get first crack at the Aug 1st and Aug 28th games, but didn't announce the prices yet. They are supposed to go sale tomorrow, yet haven't told anyone the price levels. I think they are scared to price them like before.

like the fool I am , I am already bent over .... like coffee I'm having a hard time quitting......at least I'm realizing the champions league may be more interesting than league games

Stouffville_RPB
07-03-2012, 10:39 PM
I understand that TFC are putting up prices, and I'd love a winning club to go along with that. I may not be a "fighter" in terms of demanding a fantastic product, but I just realise/think that it takes a lot of time before YOUR club is a winning club.

Football is all about those small highs in among a lot of low points. It's all about that ONE cup run, and that ONE season when it all goes perfectly. And in between its a lot of watching hard football, shouting at the players and willing them to be better.


I love your passion t-boy and I understand your sticking by the club no matter what.

I disagree with you on people dropping tickets because TFC are not a winning club. People are dropping tickets because TFC are unable to be even a mediocre club and FO can't seem to stay out of its own way. Half the teams make the playoffs in MLS, TFC have only been close to playoffs ONE time in 6 years. ONE year they were mid table.

MLS isn't like England and every team works within a manageable $3 million budget instead of spending only as much as the owners feel fit (making it a lot easier to be a bottom table club). TFC is the ONLY team in MLS history to not make the playoffs even once in its first 3 seasons never mind first 6.

Of all people Toronto sports fans understand that you can't win every year. However increased ticket prices while the team continues to break year one futility records does not gain loyalty from fans that have been more than patient.

By all means continue with your passion. If this team makes you happy don't let anyone stop you from doing your thing. This team though has given people every reason to walk away.

ryan
07-04-2012, 08:21 AM
I love your passion t-boy and I understand your sticking by the club no matter what.

I disagree with you on people dropping tickets because TFC are not a winning club. People are dropping tickets because TFC are unable to be even a mediocre club and FO can't seem to stay out of its own way. Half the teams make the playoffs in MLS, TFC have only been close to playoffs ONE time in 6 years. ONE year they were mid table.

MLS isn't like England and every team works within a manageable $3 million budget instead of spending only as much as the owners feel fit (making it a lot easier to be a bottom table club). TFC is the ONLY team in MLS history to not make the playoffs even once in its first 3 seasons never mind first 6.

Of all people Toronto sports fans understand that you can't win every year. However increased ticket prices while the team continues to break year one futility records does not gain loyalty from fans that have been more than patient.

By all means continue with your passion. If this team makes you happy don't let anyone stop you from doing your thing. This team though has given people every reason to walk away.


There's a difference between the players failing you, and I think we all agree we get behind them, pick them up and support them back to success.

But ownership running roughshod on our pockets, just taking advantage of the market, proving to be clueless and incapable of what they've bought into...again, while destroying the culture with greed. Nobody is any less of a supporter of the badge or the players for not wanting to put up with that kind of incompetent fuckery.

I was a Ti-Cats SSH throughout the 90's. The team was broke, on the brink of moving and needed support. They were a team who made the term "cellar dweller" seem pleasant. But it wasn't as if they weren't trying to get it right. Trying to right the wrongs and yeah, it did pay off as they won a Grey Cup in 1999. Fast forward a decade and change and things are even brighter with a strong competitive side, better support and a new home in 2014.

But TFC? These assholes are not broke, not on the brink of moving and are pissing on support. They are a group who says they are trying to get it right, over and over and over, but clearly can't be arsed to straighten themselves out and only pass blame onto the lower ranks. How the fuck do you row a boat when everyone is paddling at a different speed, with different shaped paddles and the lieutenants are only thinking of how to become captain instead of getting the dickheads warring with each other on the same bloody page.

Our players are supposed to be a cohesive fucking unit when our commanders are not? The very men who dicate where our players play, what they do, who is even here.....aren't on the same page themselves?

IS IT NOT INSANE TO ANYONE, THAT OUR PRESIDENT (OR IN MY ANALOGY, CAPTAIN) HAS BASICALLY SAID...

"I'm the Captain of this ship. I don't know what a boat is, or how to steer it, hell I can't even fucking swim. I don't know who is best to row, who is best crack the whips, who should beat the drum or who is right to navigate. But I'm the fuckin Captain so the decisions are mine, tough shit."




Did this shit happen in all of these "tried and true supporter of random lower tier English clubs stories" too?

T-boy
07-04-2012, 08:36 AM
Did this shit happen in all of these "tried and true supporter of random lower tier English clubs stories" too?

It most certainly does happen!

Oxford United were "saved" by Firoz Kassam. He's a multi millionaire Kenyan. He saved them from bankruptcy and built their new stadium. He sold the old stadium. That all seems like roses. But it wasn't. He built the new stadium with a fraction of its costs and built it in blue (oxford play in yellow!). He sold the old stadium for a massive profit. He then sold the football franchise and kept the stadium, so Oxford now don't have their own stadium. He now runs rugby in the stadium too, and the football team don't get a penny from its use. So, oxford, and its fans, are no better now than when they played in their old Manor Ground. Over the last ten season's Kassam took Oxford from the Championship to the Conference and almost out of business a few times, while he is making millions in the process. He built a multi screan cinema and hotel on the site of the football ground, and oxford don't see a penny of this profit either. Us Oxford fans have just had to sit back and watch it all happen. All the promise of saviour has turned into nothing.

And this is just one story of one team in the lower leagues. Stuff like that happens all the time, and the fans can't do anything about it other than watch their team go from a fairly decent league team, to out of the league or teetering on the brink of extinction!

Welcome to the world of football! lol!

ryan
07-04-2012, 09:11 AM
Question: Who runs your soccer club then? Does he know what a soccer ball is?

My point is that we're being hosed, like your Oxford story, but IN ADDITION the guy building the club/players/etc is a fucking clueless moron knowing nothing about sports....has it ever been an "Ansemli" for Oxford? Do you get it from both ends or not?

T-boy
07-04-2012, 09:16 AM
Question: Who runs your soccer club then? Does he know what a soccer ball is?

My point is that we're being hosed, like your Oxford story, but IN ADDITION the guy building the club/players/etc is a fucking clueless moron knowing nothing about sports....has it ever been an "Ansemli" for Oxford? Do you get it from both ends or not?

Kassam knows NOTHING about football! He is a hotelier! He bought the club while in the first division, and sold the footall part of the club when they were relegated to the conference! And he says that "was a success"! (a success in his terms means that the club made him a few million pounds, but from a footballing perspective, he left the club a pile of trash in the non league).

nascarguy
07-04-2012, 01:28 PM
Tom Anselmi steps down
A price freeze
A price decrease to year 3 or 4

cmonyoureds
07-04-2012, 01:30 PM
It most certainly does happen!

Oxford United were "saved" by Firoz Kassam. He's a multi millionaire Kenyan. He saved them from bankruptcy and built their new stadium. He sold the old stadium. That all seems like roses. But it wasn't. He built the new stadium with a fraction of its costs and built it in blue (oxford play in yellow!). He sold the old stadium for a massive profit. He then sold the football franchise and kept the stadium, so Oxford now don't have their own stadium. He now runs rugby in the stadium too, and the football team don't get a penny from its use. So, oxford, and its fans, are no better now than when they played in their old Manor Ground. Over the last ten season's Kassam took Oxford from the Championship to the Conference and almost out of business a few times, while he is making millions in the process. He built a multi screan cinema and hotel on the site of the football ground, and oxford don't see a penny of this profit either. Us Oxford fans have just had to sit back and watch it all happen. All the promise of saviour has turned into nothing.

And this is just one story of one team in the lower leagues. Stuff like that happens all the time, and the fans can't do anything about it other than watch their team go from a fairly decent league team, to out of the league or teetering on the brink of extinction!

Welcome to the world of football! lol!


In terms of pricing tickets, where does Oxford sit relative to their league? What's he charging for that mess? And how much of a price increase is that in the past 6 years?

T-boy
07-04-2012, 02:05 PM
In terms of pricing tickets, where does Oxford sit relative to their league? What's he charging for that mess? And how much of a price increase is that in the past 6 years?

You can't really compare as they were relegated all the way down to the conference, so they were obviously cutting season ticket prices each season of relegation.

Forrtunately for MLSE/unfortunately for the fans, there is no relegation here, so the "popularity" of MLS doesn't diminish whenever you have a crappy team. MLS is in fact getting more popular, even if TFC are terrible on the field. I think if TFC were relegated MLSE definitely couldn't increase prices, could they?! (somebody is bound to say yes they would, JUST cos they are ML$E!).

sibooo
07-04-2012, 02:35 PM
Hi all... 1st time poster here. Been a season seat holder of 4 tix in 111 since day 1. In years 1 + 2 I wish I had more tix! Since year 3, it has been a struggle to give tix away, never mind sell. This year has been awful for me. Haven't been able to make many games due to work related travel. Many tix have gone to waste or were sold at significant discounts. I have to miss the next 2 games & figure I'll have to eat them as interest for weeknight games seems to be very low. Going forward, I think I'll need to reduce my tix to a pair from 4, as well, I expect a discount of some sort.

Phil
07-04-2012, 02:53 PM
Hi all... 1st time poster here. Been a season seat holder of 4 tix in 111 since day 1. In years 1 + 2 I wish I had more tix! Since year 3, it has been a struggle to give tix away, never mind sell. This year has been awful for me. Haven't been able to make many games due to work related travel. Many tix have gone to waste or were sold at significant discounts. I have to miss the next 2 games & figure I'll have to eat them as interest for weeknight games seems to be very low. Going forward, I think I'll need to reduce my tix to a pair from 4, as well, I expect a discount of some sort.

Its sad, but a common story. Welcome to the boards though!

Juanito
07-04-2012, 09:56 PM
Of the four seasons my brother and I share, I take about 1/3 to 1/2 of one of the pair. Last year and this year in particular, I have missed more matches than I have gone due to family commitments and I guess what I can best describe as malaise.

I don't watch as many TFC matches as I used to, and if I miss a match, it's no big deal.

The decision to renew will be my brother's but my decision on how many of those tickets I'll want will certainly be interesting next year. I'm leaning towards only a handful.

Technorgasm
07-05-2012, 05:33 AM
This team can lose every fucking game, every single one. I will always renew, im never giving up my seats.
not because of the squad on the field.
but because of the fucking awesome people in the stands.

dow117
07-05-2012, 01:02 PM
How do you check if ur tickets have been used or not?

You can select "history" from MANAGE TICKET and voila !!

Auzzy
07-05-2012, 08:57 PM
You can select "history" from MANAGE TICKET and voila !!

As mentioned, this "history" feature gives very inaccurate information in my case.

burlington Red
07-07-2012, 02:18 AM
would prefer to watch a team whose fans aren't so naive about football

denime
07-07-2012, 05:50 AM
This team can lose every fucking game, every single one. I will always renew, im never giving up my seats.
not because of the squad on the field.
but because of the fucking awesome people in the stands.

and once the awesome people in the stands are gone because of results on the field and overpriced tickets?

jazzy
07-07-2012, 08:33 AM
It most certainly does happen!


Oxford United were "saved" by Firoz Kassam. He's a multi millionaire Kenyan. He saved them from bankruptcy and built their new stadium. He sold the old stadium. That all seems like roses. But it wasn't. He built the new stadium with a fraction of its costs and built it in blue (oxford play in yellow!). He sold the old stadium for a massive profit. He then sold the football franchise and kept the stadium, so Oxford now don't have their own stadium. He now runs rugby in the stadium too, and the football team don't get a penny from its use. So, oxford, and its fans, are no better now than when they played in their old Manor Ground. Over the last ten season's Kassam took Oxford from the Championship to the Conference and almost out of business a few times, while he is making millions in the process. He built a multi screan cinema and hotel on the site of the football ground, and oxford don't see a penny of this profit either. Us Oxford fans have just had to sit back and watch it all happen. All the promise of saviour has turned into nothing.

And this is just one story of one team in the lower leagues. Stuff like that happens all the time, and the fans can't do anything about it other than watch their team go from a fairly decent league team, to out of the league or teetering on the brink of extinction!

Welcome to the world of football! lol!

so we just accept this?

tiberius
07-07-2012, 09:47 AM
and once the awesome people in the stands are gone because of results on the field and overpriced tickets?

... Silence... you will be able to hear a penny drop... but watch out because Tommy be all over that penny like a monkey on a cupcake... Supply and Demand, don't you know...

jazzy
07-07-2012, 11:56 AM
^ actually they'll simply throw buckets of misplaced $ at god knows what,...( without repairing the organization,..hint FO,....like some star DP,...that will come to a disorganised team,....and be renamed the leafs..haha...to stagnate with a few stars and mostly hard workers or checkers,..to bad we don't have enforcers,..OMG, and remain perpetually at the bottom,..aka the leafs/tfc

fiji_blue
07-07-2012, 01:42 PM
I will give up my seats until there is another ownership group in town

Kooper
07-08-2012, 11:36 AM
I will give up my seats until there is another ownership group in town

With the two biggest players in the Canadian entertainment industry (Rogeres and Bell) getting in bed together to buy MLSE there is no one else left. MLSE as a single entity is too big for most buyers to pick up.

Chris Wren
07-08-2012, 11:54 AM
would prefer to watch a team whose fans aren't so naive about football


So, go do it. I'm sick of people like you that want to insult the supporters of this team.

Go F off, and support whoever you like. Nobody cares.

Cashcleaner
07-08-2012, 12:50 PM
One thing that gets lost in the discussion is the additional costs involved for fans and supporters who live outside of the city centre. Just like with other teams or events, a large number of TFC followers often have to commute from the suburbs or other areas further out to catch a game in the city. For many of us, a TFC match at BMO Field is basically an entire day spent and our individual cost per game can be much higher than most others.

For example, here in Oshawa a GO ticket to Exhibition will set me back about 18 bucks and it takes over an hour to get there and the same amount of time to get back. And because my home isn't a short walk or TTC ride away, I have to eat in town and pay for food and drink from a vendor or restaurant. After a while, these costs and the time spent travelling to games add up greatly. Which is why I can't really blame some people who would rather stay home and watch games on the TV rather than go through the hassle and expense of travelling into the city for a game - especially if the team is doing particularly poorly.

DangerRed
07-08-2012, 06:27 PM
Nothing. I had them last season, dropped this year and very glad I did it. I've been to two games this season and maybe I'll make it out to a third. It's a fun day in the sun now, not really anything worth spending money on on a regular basis. I mean, these are the guys who raise ticket prices every single year no matter what, and expect us to pay, regardless of the very steep decline in results. Barcelona - arguably the world's best and most successful club right now - are not raising season ticket prices next year. Think about that.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 11:20 AM
I'm still going to renew whatever. I love live football! I love TFC! I can't afford to go travel anywhere else for live professional football! TFC till I die! :)

pkelamis
07-09-2012, 12:44 PM
My Recommendations:

*Prices reset to Year 1 Levels
*BMO Field Concession Changes - More Choice on Beer, Liquor, Food, Snacks (Another Crappy Carlsberg will drive me to the grave)
*10% Discount on Concessions with Supporter Card
*The club needs to make a concerned effort for fans to arrive early . . . so the clusterfuck that occurs in the first 20 minutes doesn't happen at every game
*No more mid-season Euro friendlies
*Fan-appreciation events, be creative, how many of the same pub crawl is TFC going to offer
*Clean out the entire FO - - A company that has had 6 losing years in most situations has fired their CEO, CFO and CCO - - the same needs to happen here

jrober38
07-09-2012, 12:48 PM
I will give up my seats until there is another ownership group in town

I second this. As a disclaimer, I don't have seats, but there's no way I'd ever get them until someone else is running the show.

In 2009 the franchise was valued at $44 million, and I can't imagine it's increased much since then. If an individual were to step in and buy the franchise, I'd buy season tickets.

Just like every MLSE owned team, this team is going nowhere under it's current ownership model.

ManUtd4ever
07-09-2012, 01:02 PM
A new ownership group will officially be in place shortly.

Can we expect a discernible difference in the way Rogers/Bell/Tanenbaum set up the overall infrastructure of the organization and implement marketing strategies?

I certainly hope so.

jrober38
07-09-2012, 01:08 PM
A new ownership group will officially be in place shortly.

Can we expect a discernible difference in the way Rogers/Bell/Tanenbaum set up the overall infrastructure of the organization and implement marketing strategies?

I certainly hope so.

I'm not expecting any changes.

We're going from one corporate ownership group to another. For things to truly change, we need a new owner to sit atop the thrown as the unquestioned head of the franchise. That person needs to have a successful business background, and more importantly they have to have a vision for how the team will function and then to implement that vision. Part of that is to have a vested interest in watching the team win, which means that they, like us, are actually effected emotionally by the results the team produces.

IMO, only a single owner, or small partnership of owners can achieve that.

Hitcho
07-09-2012, 01:31 PM
I selected a 25% decrease, but honestly, my real answer is that seasons need to become a value again. I can get tickets when I need them at face of the ticket trader here, or on groupon or scalpers often below cost. I can't use all of my seasons in a given year, and the secondary market is more or less dead so I end up eating the cost of tickets.

It's a pure value proposition to me. I'll do the math closer to renewal, but I can't see seasons being worth it.

The other thing would be if they became a hot enough commodity that it would be tough to get into the stadium. But if that was the case - then seasons would move back into the value proposition again as my unused tickets would be in demand.

A DP would or an improved record alone would not convince me, as it would have little to no bearing on my ability to attend the same number of games I do now. Only if either or both changed the price equation.

Firing Anselmi - nope. That's only the first bit. The second bit is they'd need to do the right thing and put the right people into place to improve the club. They could just as easily put another incompetent in place. And again - hate to harp on it, but it's all about the value.

I'd say this basically sums it up for me. All good points. Winning and even performance is not the issue for me. I'll support my team win or lose - even if we lose nine in a row. But what I won't do is pay through the teeth for season tickets while the front office gouges its fans and lurches from one inept, panicked regime change to another in search of more and more profits at the expense of any football related considerations.

MLSE is not trying to run a football club. It is trying to run a profit machine and rountinely takes short sighted decisions to try and keep fans paying money just that little bit longer. The football is a side issue to them. I can no longer support the current ownership if that's their outlook.

For me, I won't be renewing unless A) the Bell/Rogers sale goes through, B) Anslemi is replaced by someone who knows what they are doing and actually cares about the football side of things rather than just the profit side and C) the new ownership makes a meaningful reduction in season ticket prices to bring them more into line with average MLS prices rather than very top end.

Everything Brad said above is right on - MLSE are not providing any value. My four season tickets won't be renewed unless that changes.

ManUtd4ever
07-09-2012, 01:43 PM
I'm not expecting any changes.

We're going from one corporate ownership group to another. For things to truly change, we need a new owner to sit atop the thrown as the unquestioned head of the franchise. That person needs to have a successful business background, and more importantly they have to have a vision for how the team will function and then to implement that vision. Part of that is to have a vested interest in watching the team win, which means that they, like us, are actually effected emotionally by the results the team produces.

IMO, only a single owner, or small partnership of owners can achieve that.

Rogers and Bell are the two largest media conglomerates in the country. Assuming that they intend on capitalizing on content by televising all TFC matches on Sportsnet and TSN, they will have a vested interest in delivering a winning product, because there is additional profitability at stake. The new ownership group might not be affected emotionally by the team's results, but they will be certainly be affected financially, which is a much greater motivational factor. ;)

jrober38
07-09-2012, 01:48 PM
Rogers and Bell are the two largest media conglomerates in the country. Assuming that they intend on capitalizing on content by televising all TFC matches on Sportsnet and TSN, they will have a vested interest in delivering a winning product, because there is additional profitability at stake. The new ownership group might not be affected emotionally by the team's results, but they will be certainly be affected financially, which is a much greater motivational factor. ;)

The current ownership group is also motivated by money, and the team has been a colossal disaster with that as our intended goal.

You need a guy or small group of guys with a vision for how a Football Club should be run. Although making money is important, the priority of the team needs to be winning games.

One person needs to be making the decisions. Not a board of CFAs who think they know how to run soccer club.

ManUtd4ever
07-09-2012, 01:59 PM
The current ownership group is also motivated by money, and the team has been a colossal disaster with that as our intended goal.

You need a guy or small group of guys with a vision for how a Football Club should be run. Although making money is important, the priority of the team needs to be winning games.

One person needs to be making the decisions. Not a board of CFAs who think they know how to run soccer club.

The current ownership group may have been motivated by money, but not to the same extent because:

a) The strong STH base was basically handed to them on a silver platter. The new ownership group will have to earn the loyalty of the fan base with results on the pitch and aggressive ticket pricing strategies.

b) The current ownership group didn't rely on television content to deliver stellar ratings. Gol TV has never had strong ratings because of limited exposure, but the national and regional powerhouse networks owned by Rogers and Bell (Sportsnet and TSN) will rely on much stronger ratings from their TFC related content.

I agree with hiring the right individual to oversee the infrastructure of the club, and hopefully, the new ownership consortium will make that their first order of business.

Pyeddo
07-09-2012, 02:11 PM
Rogers and Bell are the two largest media conglomerates in the country. Assuming that they intend on capitalizing on content by televising all TFC matches on Sportsnet and TSN, they will have a vested interest in delivering a winning product, because there is additional profitability at stake. The new ownership group might not be affected emotionally by the team's results, but they will be certainly be affected financially, which is a much greater motivational factor. ;)


Their purchase of ML$E was about vertical integration and control of content, nothing more.

ManUtd4ever
07-09-2012, 02:16 PM
Their purchase of ML$E was about vertical integration and control of content

Correct, but that doesn't negate the added motivation that will be a factor for the new ownership group as a result of owning and controlling the content, compared to the OTPP.

jrober38
07-09-2012, 02:22 PM
Just throwing this out there, but I don't put much stock into the fact that Bell and Rogers are massive CANADIAN communications companies because they operate in a business environment that massively promotes their ability to make money by limiting their competition in the communications markets.

They might be successful by Canadian standards, but none of us have any idea how we'll they'd perform if they were forced to play on a level playingfield against their American counterparts.

The point I'm making is that you don't have to be some sort of savvy business genius to make money in an industry almost all of the public uses when you have one major competitor.

Because of that, I don't have much faith that they're going to come in here and clean up this mess. As most of us know, Bell and Rogers have pretty glaring weaknesses (pricing, customer service) that we the consumers have no choice but to accept because modern society forces us to use their products.

I worry that on a playing field where we the consumer actually have a choice whether or not we're going to buy what they're selling, that the product they produce will be anything better than what we've grown used to.

They might want to put an improved product on the field, but until they show us they know how to, I'm going to remain skeptical that their corporate ownership structure will work any better than the existing one.

I hope I'm wrong.

ManUtd4ever
07-09-2012, 02:30 PM
Just throwing this out there, but I don't put much stock into the fact that Bell and Rogers are massive CANADIAN communications companies because they operate in a business environment that massively promotes their ability to make money by limiting their competition in the communications markets.

They might be successful by Canadian standards, but none of us have any idea how we'll they'd perform if they were forced to play on a level playingfield against their American counterparts.

The point I'm making is that you don't have to be some sort of savvy business genius to make money in an industry almost all of the public uses when you have one major competitor.

Because of that, I don't have much faith that they're going to come in here and clean up this mess. As most of us know, Bell and Rogers have pretty glaring weaknesses (pricing, customer service) that we the consumers have no choice but to accept because modern society forces us to use their products.

I worry that on a playing field where we the consumer actually have a choice whether or not we're going to buy what they're selling, that the product they produce will be anything better than what we've grown used to.

I hope I'm wrong.

As a Canadian telecommunications consumer, I absolutely agree.

Nonetheless, I think there will be a much greater impetus to deliver a winning product within the new ownership consortium, because Rogers and Bell will stand to lose susbtantially more potential supplemental profit than their predecessors if the Leafs, Raptors, and TFC continue to falter.

jrober38
07-09-2012, 02:42 PM
As a Canadian telecommunications consumer, I absolutely agree.

Nonetheless, I think there will be a much greater impetus to deliver a winning product within the new ownership consortium, because Rogers and Bell will stand to lose susbtantially more potential supplemental profit than their predecessors if the Leafs, Raptors, and TFC continue to falter.

I'm not sure that's true.

All of those teams have been terrible for roughly 10 years, but because of the size and amount of disposable income in the city, each team continues to put enough fans in the seats for ownership to be successful.

I mean, I don't know what TFCs average attendance numbers are, but suppose that new ownership improves the product and increases the number of attendees by 2,000 fans a game. At roughly $60/game day experience (ticket, concessions) over a 17 game home schedule, you're only looking at about $2 million in additional revenue.

To companies who combined made $30 billion last year, $2 million is totally irrelevant.

As someone said earlier, this is entirely about vertical integration of the content. They're going to make meaningful money off of their televisions viewers; not from ticket sales.

HD TSN and TSN2 are already like $10 a month. Once they get control of all the MLSE sports teams, they're just going to pass additional costs off to their Television subscribers because.

ManUtd4ever
07-09-2012, 02:48 PM
I'm not sure that's true.

All of those teams have been terrible for roughly 10 years, but because of the size and amount of disposable income in the city, each team continues to put enough fans in the seats for ownership to be successful.

I mean, I don't know what TFCs average attendance numbers are, but suppose that new ownership improves the product and increases the number of attendees by 2,000 fans a game. At roughly $60/game day experience (ticket, concessions) over a 17 game home schedule, you're only looking at about $2 million in additional revenue.

To companies who combined made $30 billion last year, $2 million is totally irrelevant.

As someone said earlier, this is entirely about vertical integration of the content. They're going to make meaningful money off of their televisions viewers; not from ticket sales.

This is precisely the point I was trying to make. TFC is obviously the smallest piece of the pie, but the TV ratings for all of their sports properties will be much higher and generate more profit if the teams are successful on the ice/court/pitch.

jrober38
07-09-2012, 02:57 PM
This is precisely the point I was trying to make. TFC is obviously the smallest piece of the pie, but the TV ratings for all of their sports properties will be much higher and generate more profit if the teams are successful on the ice/court/pitch.

I expect the real push to put on improving the Leafs. That's has been, and always will be MLSE's cash cow.

Unfortunately for people who don't care about the Leafs, they're going to be gouged by the telecommunication providers now because all of their games are guaranteed to be aired on their networks.

For example, if Bell and Rogers both came out tomorrow and said; from now on all MLSE sports teams will play ALL of their games on our networks, and to have access to those channels you have to pay $20/month.

People will complain, but in the end way more people will buy into that because they love the Leafs than will cancel their subscription.

The amount of money they'll make there will totally offset their need to put a winning Raptors team on the court and a TFC game on the pitch.

People will already be paying to watch the Leafs...

BFin
07-09-2012, 04:18 PM
I work in Telecommunications and the on-going conversation confuses me.

Yes, Rogers/Bell did buy MLSE in order to take control of content. However, this will not give them a significant additional revenue stream by airing on Sportsnet/TSN unless a derth of people begin paying for Mobile streaming OR they air the games on GolTV and force you to purchase. The only added value by having a successful product on the field would stem from MORE people paying to see matches.

MLSE (in it's current form) is purely responsible for the bottom line (profit). They are as motivated (if not more) to have a successful product on the field (merch, tickets, concessions etc.) than Rogers/Bell because the content rights are much less important and valuable to them. They just have their heads up their asses when it comes to putting sports people in place as opposed to successful business men. I don't know that I am expecting much of a change with the new regime.

Hitcho
07-09-2012, 04:27 PM
There's always the possibility that Bell/Rogers will just look to hive off TFC. They will acquire it as part of MLSE, but really what they want is the Leafs and the Raptors and access to the massive US markets that provides. TFC is just window dressing to them. So they might just look for a quick cash boost in a lump sum (which would help to offset the purchase cost) by selling TFC to someone else, if they can find a buyer.

ManUtd4ever
07-09-2012, 05:36 PM
I work in Telecommunications and the on-going conversation confuses me.

Yes, Rogers/Bell did buy MLSE in order to take control of content. However, this will not give them a significant additional revenue stream by airing on Sportsnet/TSN unless a derth of people begin paying for Mobile streaming OR they air the games on GolTV and force you to purchase. The only added value by having a successful product on the field would stem from MORE people paying to see matches.

MLSE (in it's current form) is purely responsible for the bottom line (profit). They are as motivated (if not more) to have a successful product on the field (merch, tickets, concessions etc.) than Rogers/Bell because the content rights are much less important and valuable to them. They just have their heads up their asses when it comes to putting sports people in place as opposed to successful business men. I don't know that I am expecting much of a change with the new regime.

If I'm not mistaken, higher television ratings for programming content equate additional revenue for the networks that sell air time for commercials/advertising, correct?

Therefore, it stands to reason that Rogers and Bell, by virtue of owning Sportsnet and TSN, would benefit financially to a greater extent than the OTPP in terms of generating additional revenue if more people tune in to watch the Leafs, Raptors, and TFC on Sportsnet and TSN, does it not?

If all of the teams are lousy, the ratings for the Leafs, Raptors, and TFC related content on Sportsnet and TSN will invariably decrease over the course of their respective seasons, which would have a deterimental impact on potential advertising revenue.

Am I missing something here?

ryan
07-09-2012, 07:38 PM
There's always the possibility that Bell/Rogers will just look to hive off TFC. They will acquire it as part of MLSE, but really what they want is the Leafs and the Raptors and access to the massive US markets that provides. TFC is just window dressing to them. So they might just look for a quick cash boost in a lump sum (which would help to offset the purchase cost) by selling TFC to someone else, if they can find a buyer.

If I can only win Lotto Max...

cmonyoureds
07-09-2012, 09:27 PM
I'm going to take the $'s I'd normally be spending on travel/tix/concessions at BMO and use it to go on road trips. Still supporting the team, and I usually....sorry ALWAYS..... have more fun on a road trip.

I know MLS is a single entity and all, and if the league is successful so are you, but I know a few people who are already doing this. That should really worry the TFC f/o....your "captive" audience buying your product from a competitor, who will gain the majority of the profits.

Figure I can do an additional two, maybe three roadtrips (none of which are Columbus I might add!!!!!) on top of what I already do and did I mention........DUTY FREE stops!!!!!!

BFin
07-09-2012, 10:23 PM
If I'm not mistaken, higher television ratings for programming content equate additional revenue for the networks that sell air time for commercials/advertising, correct?

Therefore, it stands to reason that Rogers and Bell, by virtue of owning Sportsnet and TSN, would benefit financially to a greater extent than the OTPP in terms of generating additional revenue if more people tune in to watch the Leafs, Raptors, and TFC on Sportsnet and TSN, does it not?

If all of the teams are lousy, the ratings for the Leafs, Raptors, and TFC related content on Sportsnet and TSN will invariably decrease over the course of their respective seasons, which would have a deterimental impact on potential advertising revenue.

Am I missing something here?

Yes. Rogers and Bell do not garner revenues via ratings. They garner revenues via subscribership.

Ad revenue pales in comparison to the revenue generated by your base.

T-boy
07-09-2012, 10:48 PM
How does this all impact TFC? Doesn't TFC viewership pale in comparison to viewership to hockey/baseball/basketball on Canadian TV? I doubt there is much interest from Rogers in TFC games...they have much bigger fish to fry in terms of TV revenue, I would have thought?

Voodooman
07-09-2012, 10:53 PM
Pricing end of story. It costs too much. With Student tuition, there is no way I can afford to pay for tickets again next year at these prices

BFin
07-09-2012, 11:14 PM
How does this all impact TFC? Doesn't TFC viewership pale in comparison to viewership to hockey/baseball/basketball on Canadian TV? I doubt there is much interest from Rogers in TFC games...they have much bigger fish to fry in terms of TV revenue, I would have thought?

That's precisely my point.

I'm saying there will not be much change in the desire to win with this organizational change.

We need to stop thinking of Rogers or Bell as TV Revenue. They are purely interested in their subscriber base and that will always be the battle within the industry. If the average TV bill per subscriber is between 60-90 bucks...multiply that times ~24 million households and twelve months and you'll see where the real revenue is. Rogers Media sells ads. Rogers Cable wants subscribers. Exclusive content gets that.

kodiakTFC
07-10-2012, 12:07 AM
Pretty sure Bell/Rogers will keep TFC. There is more and more MLS coverage each year, their happy with the ratings and the team makes pretty good money for very little investment. If they sold it, they'd then have to buy into the rights, that doesn't make sense. Its better to just own all the sporting properties.

Super
07-10-2012, 12:55 AM
I think for a lot of people it's not really about price. It's really more a feeling of not wanting to go to BMO anymore. Apathy. Complete and utter apathy. I've seen so many people disappear around me who used to go to every game, and now there's less than half of us left. They just stopped caring.

ManUtd4ever
07-10-2012, 06:58 AM
Ah, ok. I thought that the ad revenue was more substantial.

In any case, by controlling exclusive content for the Leafs, Raps, and TFC, I would hope that Rogers/Bell will still be more motivated to promote winning teams as opposed to perennial losers within their programming content.

billyfly
07-10-2012, 08:20 AM
I would renew if Budweiser became the official beer of BMO.

jrober38
07-10-2012, 08:24 AM
How does this all impact TFC? Doesn't TFC viewership pale in comparison to viewership to hockey/baseball/basketball on Canadian TV? I doubt there is much interest from Rogers in TFC games...they have much bigger fish to fry in terms of TV revenue, I would have thought?

Exactly.

By being able to guarantee that all of the Leaf games will be aired on TSN or SportsNet, Bell and Rogers can pretty much turn around and charge whatever they want for their customers to have access to those channels.

If HD TSN and TSN2 is already $10/month, there's no way they won't charge more in the future knowing how inelastic the demand for Leafs games is. Unfortunately, Raptors and TFC fans are going to get totally screwed because the Leafs are so popular.

In the end, there's no new motivation to put a winning product on the field or court, because so many people will be willing to pay top dollar to watch the Laughs play on TV.

Oldtimer
07-10-2012, 08:47 AM
Next year I'll make it easy, instead of paying my SSH invoice, I'm going to put my money into a pile and set it on fire. :D

BFin
07-10-2012, 08:55 AM
Ah, ok. I thought that the ad revenue was more substantial.

In any case, by controlling exclusive content for the Leafs, Raps, and TFC, I would hope that Rogers/Bell will still be more motivated to promote winning teams as opposed to perennial losers within their programming content.


Here's hoping. I'm with a lot of people on the fact that if they just won and made the tickets/experience seem worth our while, I would have no issues renewing at the price I pay.

ManUtd4ever
07-10-2012, 11:07 AM
Here's hoping. I'm with a lot of people on the fact that if they just won and made the tickets/experience seem worth our while, I would have no issues renewing at the price I pay.

I'm in the same boat. In my section, the price isn't even the issue (although I completely understand the discontent with pricing outside the supporters section). At an average cost of approximately $20 per seat for every match, my seasons tickets are still the best deal in town.

My issue is that I don't want to get to the point where I lose the motivation to attend matches I've already paid for because the team isn't competitive, and the games are essentially meaningless in the standings.

jrober38
07-10-2012, 11:20 AM
I don't get why anyone would renew at this point.

It's incredibly easy to get tickets when you want them, and they can often be had for well below face value.

Instead of committing to a full season, pick and choose when you go by shopping in the secondary market.

nfitz
07-10-2012, 11:31 AM
I don't get why anyone would renew at this point.Because it's cheaper and more convenient?

It's not like supporters would be picking and choosing ... and how many weddings can their possibly be in a year?

jrober38
07-10-2012, 11:34 AM
Because it's cheaper and more convenient?

It's not like supporters would be picking and choosing ... and how many weddings can their possibly be in a year?

Every friend of mine who has season tickets finds it impossible to get rid of tickets when they can't use them, combined with the fact that they don't want to go to most games anymore because of the team's record. Often, they can't find anyone to use their tickets, even when they try to give them away for free.

So, instead of committing to buy tickets to 17 games, I'd much rather go to a handful of games instead knowing I'll be able to get tickets in the secondary market for a a fraction of their actual cost.

If more people did this, the team might actually take notice and work harder to fix this mess.

nfitz
07-10-2012, 11:36 AM
A handful of games?

Sorry, I mistook this place for a Supporter group. Must have got the wrong forum ...

T-boy
07-10-2012, 11:50 AM
A handful of games?

Sorry, I mistook this place for a Supporter group. Must have got the wrong forum ...

I think I made that mistake when I joined this forum also. I assumed that as its a supporters group forum, that it would be full of supporters who would attend games "no matter what". But I don't think that's necessarily the case as its a public forum, not a private forum where ONLY members can chat. I assume the members section is where you find people who WOULD attend games no matter what.

jabbronies
07-10-2012, 11:51 AM
I don't get why anyone would renew at this point.

It's incredibly easy to get tickets when you want them, and they can often be had for well below face value.

Instead of committing to a full season, pick and choose when you go by shopping in the secondary market.

For me it's been about the people in my section that I stand with. Great group of people to have a beer with and watch footy. By having season tickets I can be in that section with them for the season.

However, at the price I am paying now - about $30-$35/game, I'm convinced it's not worth paying for anymore. I can take that money and hang with those guys in a bar and the value is much better. At the end of the day I'm paying to watch footy and this team has shown to me that they don't care about the product on the pitch. They care about $$$. $$$ come first before winning.

The fact that my tickets have gone up almost double since year 1 and yet we still suck 6 years in. It would be different if the team was actually competitive and had a win first mentality, but again, this team has done nothing to prove that it cares about that first and foremost. Price freeze is bullshit response. Roll back the prices to season 2 is the only way for me right now.

JonO
07-10-2012, 11:54 AM
A handful of games?

Sorry, I mistook this place for a Supporter group. Must have got the wrong forum ...
Meh - sometimes life has a habbit of getting in the way. I know that my attendance at games depends a lot on my kids schedule. Still usually more than a handful, but I'm certainly not going to judge anyone...


Every friend of mine who has season tickets finds it impossible to get rid of tickets when they can't use them, combined with the fact that they don't want to go to most games anymore because of the team's record. Often, they can't find anyone to use their tickets, even when they try to give them away for free.

So, instead of committing to buy tickets to 17 games, I'd much rather go to a handful of games instead knowing I'll be able to get tickets in the secondary market for a a fraction of their actual cost.

If more people did this, the team might actually take notice and work harder to fix this mess.
The flaw in this theory is that as more people do this (i.e. drop their season tickets) then there goes your secondary market and you are looking at paying box office prices. Personally, I am disappointed paying significantly more than any other team in the league for my seats. Right now I have resorted to sharing with a friend, but even so I think the FO really needs to look at how the seats are priced.

jrober38
07-10-2012, 11:57 AM
For me it's been about the people in my section that I stand with. Great group of people to have a beer with and watch footy. By having season tickets I can be in that section with them for the season.

However, at the price I am paying now - about $30-$35/game, I'm convinced it's not worth paying for anymore. I can take that money and hang with those guys in a bar and the value is much better. At the end of the day I'm paying to watch footy and this team has shown to me that they don't care about the product on the pitch. They care about $$$. $$$ come first before winning.

The fact that my tickets have gone up almost double since year 1 and yet we still suck 6 years in. It would be different if the team was actually competitive and had a win first mentality, but again, this team has done nothing to prove that it cares about that first and foremost. Price freeze is bullshit response. Roll back the prices to season 2 is the only way for me right now.

Exactly what I was trying to say.

You can support a team without buying season tickets. And at this stage after so many terrible season, the fans should be stepping back in huge numbers and asking the team to show that the team is actually on the right course towards being successful before they're obligated to invest more of their hard earned money into the franchise.

Too many people assume the relationship between Fan and Team can be one sided, in the sense that the Fans should 'support' the team financially no matter what happens on the field. To me, that's BS. Without the Fans, the team wouldn't exist, and if the team is going to continue to disrespect its fan base by hiring inept people to run the club, then it's the right of the fan to be able to step back and make the team try harder to regain their trust.

The Fan-Team relationship needs to be two ways. Both have to care about the success of the other, and if the relationship ever gets excessively one sided, you run into a situation where one side is happy to exploit the effort of the other party.

That's what I see happening right now.

T-boy
07-10-2012, 11:58 AM
I don't get why anyone would renew at this point.

It's incredibly easy to get tickets when you want them, and they can often be had for well below face value.

Instead of committing to a full season, pick and choose when you go by shopping in the secondary market.

I love my section and seat in 113. I like the people that stand around me, so I like to be with them. I also like the convenience that I have all my tickets at home, I never have to go searching for tickets from anybody/on the internet. I love watching live football, and love tha atmosphere and the chanting and the banter in the stands. I wouldn't miss it for the world! For me, I don't get THAT feeling from any other sporting event or other entertainment. Watching live football in a stdium full of people is a magical experience and I look forward to it every week.

jrober38
07-10-2012, 12:03 PM
I love my section and seat in 113. I like the people that stand around me, so I like to be with them. I also like the convenience that I have all my tickets at home, I never have to go searching for tickets from anybody/on the internet. I love watching live football, and love tha atmosphere and the chanting and the banter in the stands. I wouldn't miss it for the world! For me, I don't get THAT feeling from any other sporting event or other entertainment. Watching live football in a stdium full of people is a magical experience and I look forward to it every week.

That's an excellent explanation for my question for why someone would continue to buy tickets.

I guess it's the stuff that can't really be measured the same way as game to game results that makes it worth while.

jabbronies
07-10-2012, 12:10 PM
Exactly what I was trying to say.

You can support a team without buying season tickets. And at this stage after so many terrible season, the fans should be stepping back in huge numbers and asking the team to show that the team is actually on the right course towards being successful before they're obligated to invest more of their hard earned money into the franchise.

Too many people assume the relationship between Fan and Team can be one sided, in the sense that the Fans should 'support' the team financially no matter what happens on the field. To me, that's BS. Without the Fans, the team wouldn't exist, and if the team is going to continue to disrespect its fan base by hiring inept people to run the club, then it's the right of the fan to be able to step back and make the team try harder to regain their trust.

The Fan-Team relationship needs to be two ways. Both have to care about the success of the other, and if the relationship ever gets excessively one sided, you run into a situation where one side is happy to exploit the effort of the other party.

That's what I see happening right now.

At the end of the day, people don't want to let go of their tickets. They like hanging our at the stadium watching live footy with their friends/family. It's something this city has needed for years.

However, as the poll above suggests many people will be forced to let go of their tickets due to the greed of the club. The prices are outragious for the product we are receiving and many of us, as this poll and hundreds of posts on this message board suggests, are fed up of the promise of a better product. Time for the FO to make a choice - Cut back the prices or force your most loyal customers to abandon their tickets. No more empty promises of better results and half ass "price freeze" olive branches. MAN UP TO YOUR MISTAKES AND CUT THE PRICES

T-boy
07-10-2012, 12:12 PM
^^^ I still think the supporters section season ticket prices are excellent. So, I guess you are tlaking about the rest of the stadium, which is vastly more expensive, correct?

jrober38
07-10-2012, 12:16 PM
Yes. That's what I'm referring to.

T-boy
07-10-2012, 12:20 PM
I agree with you then, of course.

How many (on this forum) are SSH in the supporters section? I think you would find a big gap in opinion of those in the supporters section and those outside of it. I'm not letting go of my 113 season ticket as its amazing value. But, if I had a SSH in another section, I would see much less value in it, of course.

I think if we had separate polls for those in the supporters section compared to others, I think you'd get a much different answer in both polls.

nfitz
07-10-2012, 01:33 PM
Meh - sometimes life has a habbit of getting in the way. I know that my attendance at games depends a lot on my kids schedule. Still usually more than a handful, but I'm certainly not going to judge anyone...Sometimes it does ... and I wouldn't judge. But I question going to the forum of a supporters group and asking why anyone would buy a seasons ticket, or advocating only attending a handful of games.

But perhaps I should keep my mouth shut not being RPB.


I assume the members section is where you find people who WOULD attend games no matter what.From what I've been told, the chatter in there is mostly administrative, etc. And most of the core discussion is actually here.

Hitcho
07-10-2012, 02:32 PM
Every friend of mine who has season tickets finds it impossible to get rid of tickets when they can't use them, combined with the fact that they don't want to go to most games anymore because of the team's record. Often, they can't find anyone to use their tickets, even when they try to give them away for free.

So, instead of committing to buy tickets to 17 games, I'd much rather go to a handful of games instead knowing I'll be able to get tickets in the secondary market for a a fraction of their actual cost.

If more people did this, the team might actually take notice and work harder to fix this mess.

This really annoys me. What you've just said amounts to "I'm happy to fleece my fellow RPBs by knowingly offering them a fraction of what they paid for their season tickets so that I can benefit at their expense". And now you're gloating about it being a great way to get tickets and encouraging others to do the same.

Aside from the obvious face slap to your fellow group members, as JonO pointed out above if everyone took your stance, then there wouldn't BE a secondary market for you to get tickets from. You'd be left paying scalper prices or dealing with ticket master handling fees.

So why don't you (and others like you, because you are not alone) actually try and do your season seat holding RPBs a favour and offer face value for tickets to the "handful" of games you want to go to. It would avoid p!ssing in the faces of your fellow RPBs and will sustain your secondary market so that you can actually buy tickets when you want them, which if you stop to think about it is a much better way to keep your options open.

We're a group, people. Let's try and act like one instead of scalping each other at every available opportunity.

jrober38
07-10-2012, 02:54 PM
This really annoys me. What you've just said amounts to "I'm happy to fleece my fellow RPBs by knowingly offering them a fraction of what they paid for their season tickets so that I can benefit at their expense". And now you're gloating about it being a great way to get tickets and encouraging others to do the same.

Aside from the obvious face slap to your fellow group members, as JonO pointed out above if everyone took your stance, then there wouldn't BE a secondary market for you to get tickets from. You'd be left paying scalper prices or dealing with ticket master handling fees.

So why don't you (and others like you, because you are not alone) actually try and do your season seat holding RPBs a favour and offer face value for tickets to the "handful" of games you want to go to. It would avoid p!ssing in the faces of your fellow RPBs and will sustain your secondary market so that you can actually buy tickets when you want them, which if you stop to think about it is a much better way to keep your options open.

We're a group, people. Let's try and act like one instead of scalping each other at every available opportunity.

It's not my fault that the tickets are totally overpriced to watch an inferior product.

The market is what people want to pay for tickets. When SSH realize that they can buy tickets in the secondary market for a fraction of what you can buy them from at the box office, demand will decline.

With a decline in demand, TFC will have no choice but to lower ticket prices, which I think is something everyone on this board can agree should happen given the results this team generates.

For as long as season seat holders continue to get gouged by the Greed of MLSE, the secondary market for tickets isn't going to exist because most people realize that the cost of going to a game isn't justified by the product on the field.

T-boy
07-10-2012, 03:12 PM
It's not my fault that the tickets are totally overpriced to watch an inferior product.

The market is what people want to pay for tickets. When SSH realize that they can buy tickets in the secondary market for a fraction of what you can buy them from at the box office, demand will decline.

With a decline in demand, TFC will have no choice but to lower ticket prices, which I think is something everyone on this board can agree should happen given the results this team generates.

For as long as season seat holders continue to get gouged by the Greed of MLSE, the secondary market for tickets isn't going to exist because most people realize that the cost of going to a game isn't justified by the product on the field.

An inferior product, in comparison to what though? The EPL, Seria A, Bundesliga?!

Yes, inferior to all. But what else do we have in North America.....other than a completely different sport to watch! Personally, I hate baseball, so what else do I watch other than my favourite sport, soccer?

TFC is only an "inferior product" if there is something else comparable to go see in the city/area. There isn't another professional soccer team to go watch. The MLS is the MLS - its not a "premium football league" like the EPL or Seria A or Bundesliga, but we don't have any other choice here.

Oldtimer
07-10-2012, 03:13 PM
Season tickets to TFC games are similar to Blue Jays season tickets.
In both cases, there was a time you needed them to get in the door, and now is no longer the case.
They are still valuable if you can (and want to) make it to every game.

spark
07-10-2012, 03:30 PM
An inferior product, in comparison to what though? The EPL, Seria A, Bundesliga?!

Yes, inferior to all. But what else do we have in North America.....other than a completely different sport to watch! Personally, I hate baseball, so what else do I watch other than my favourite sport, soccer?

TFC is only an "inferior product" if there is something else comparable to go see in the city/area. There isn't another professional soccer team to go watch. The MLS is the MLS - its not a "premium football league" like the EPL or Seria A or Bundesliga, but we don't have any other choice here.

I have a television with lots of channels offering me all those leagues for less than my season tickets.

nfitz
07-10-2012, 04:14 PM
I have a television with lots of channels offering me all those leagues for less than my season tickets.Isn't that kind of the same as giving up dating and just watching porn instead?

spark
07-10-2012, 04:17 PM
Isn't that kind of the same as giving up dating and just watching porn instead?

Well if I dated a girl for six years who never put out, then yes.

nfitz
07-10-2012, 04:27 PM
Well if I dated a girl for six years who never put out, then yes.Touché.

Dv23
07-10-2012, 05:01 PM
Are we paying her to be our girlfriend in this scenario?

denime
07-10-2012, 05:03 PM
An inferior product, in comparison to what though? The EPL, Seria A, Bundesliga?!

Yes, inferior to all. But what else do we have in North America.....other than a completely different sport to watch! Personally, I hate baseball, so what else do I watch other than my favourite sport, soccer?

TFC is only an "inferior product" if there is something else comparable to go see in the city/area. There isn't another professional soccer team to go watch. The MLS is the MLS - its not a "premium football league" like the EPL or Seria A or Bundesliga, but we don't have any other choice here.

Ever checked CSL game?

You might get surprised how good some games,teams and players are in that league.

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?26664-Toronto-FC-Academy

brad
07-10-2012, 05:11 PM
An inferior product, in comparison to what though? The EPL, Seria A, Bundesliga?!


We are an inferior product compared to most teams in the MLS, and have been since our inception.

Brooker
07-10-2012, 05:30 PM
this team has shown to me that they don't care about the product on the pitch. They care about $$$. $$$ come first before winning.

Why do they keep bringing in designated players if they don't care about the product on the pitch? For instance, they sure didn't bring Danny K here to sell tickets.

I hear this line trotted out all the time about TFC and the Leafs. They do care about the product. They just don't know how to do it!

jabbronies
07-10-2012, 06:20 PM
Why do they keep bringing in designated players if they don't care about the product on the pitch? For instance, they sure didn't bring Danny K here to sell tickets.

I hear this line trotted out all the time about TFC and the Leafs. They do care about the product. They just don't know how to do it!

They don't know what they are doing. But even when they are told what to do, they abandon the plan!
Why did they abandon ship? Results were starting to come in and then they canned him? Why not wait till the end of the season? They already waited long enough before laying down the axe - season was already over by then however results were coming in. Seems like they got scared, figured a change in manager would show that they are committed to winning? How does changing the team philosophy before it has time to mature prove they are committed to the product on the field. That feels like being committed to putting the "lipstick on the pig" to sell more tickets in a few months.

TFC literally sold us a plan to get us to buy tickets last year and then abandoned it a year later. What are they going to sell us next? Can't sell the atmosphere because everyone knows who makes that happen and those people are not too happy right now. What do we get, another plan? A useless mid-season friendlies in our season ticket package? Maybe front of the line opportunity for us to buy extra "premium" tickets for our friends!

They don't have the right people in place to manage the club.
They hired a rookie coach - and then canned him after 1.25 seasons! A rookie..brought in to turn the whole professional club around from academy to first team..in 1.25 years!!??
Committing to win means investing time (not just money) to grow a proper franchise - get the right people in from top to bottom - not just managers, but people who will run the club like a proper football club.

The people running the club right now are money people - That's why our boys are playing Liverpool mid-season at the Rogers Centre - That's why tickets have doubled in cost since year 1 without a single winning season.
I'm sure (IMO) that the academy was setup so quickly so that they could start churning out players to sell over in Europe. That Edu sale opened their eyes to $$$ with selling/loaning out players. I'm sure that's what they will sell us next -

"A great academy facility that you the SSH will pay for through season ticket increase so that we can sell players to Europe!"

can't wait! rant over

tiberius
07-10-2012, 06:48 PM
I think I made that mistake when I joined this forum also. I assumed that as its a supporters group forum, that it would be full of supporters who would attend games "no matter what"...

Over the years, this forum has had great representation from dedicated individuals from all areas of BMO field, at all price points. These people used to go to all, or almost every game. On top of that, there were many folk who travelled 1-3 hours ONE WAY to go to the games. Over the years tho, the majority of these original folk have drifted away as they hit their breaking point. It is dead easy for you to take the position that you will go "no matter what" when you are paying $300 and a bit, per seat. If my seats were that price I really wouldn't care either.

I asked you several weeks ago what your breaking point was (price wise), and you never answered. If you honestly answer that question, you will begin to understand the nature of some of the comments on this forum and why you are getting into arguments and pissing contests with other forum members over the quality of football, or the price of this or that. It is also important to note that for many diehard supporters who still frequent this forum, $350 per seat or $700/pair is a lot of money!!! Not everyone has a great paying full time job, times are tough, shit happens (like you get a family:)). On top of it all, well over 80% of BMO stadium is not priced at $350 a seat... Someone who walks in off the street today would be asked to pay $1368 for a pair of medium grays!!!!

If Tom Anselmi told you that your pair of seats will cost $1500 next year would you pay that dickhead the money? How about $2660 for the privilege of being bent over by Tommy A? That is what that asshole wants for seats I used to have. Will you pay $2660 for your seats for next year??? To watch the undisputed worst team in the whole wide world??? I will answer the question on your behalf: "No, I, T-boy, would not pay $2660 to Tom Anselmi for my seats"

I am not trying to be mean. I am not picking on you. I enjoy your upbeat comments and positive approach and I understand where you are coming from. But I ask you to please reflect upon your own breaking point as I believe you do have one, just as most of those who are still TFC fans and supporters. Many believe that it is possible that the majority of Season ticket holders are nearing, or have reached their limit this year. Many of the folk on this forum who are paying $350 for their seats probably have not reached the end of the line, but they may be worried about what has and is going on in the rest of BMO and what effect that could have on the team. This team would fold so fast your head would spin if BMO had only 4,000 seats filled in the south end at $350 a pop.

Please walk a mile in somebody else's shoes!

p.s. I am curious what your thoughts are - please reply!

ryan
07-10-2012, 06:49 PM
They don't know what they are doing. But even when they are told what to do, they abandon the plan!
Why did they abandon ship? Results were starting to come in and then they canned him? Why not wait till the end of the season? They already waited long enough before laying down the axe - season was already over by then however results were coming in. Seems like they got scared, figured a change in manager would show that they are committed to winning? How does changing the team philosophy before it has time to mature prove they are committed to the product on the field. That feels like being committed to putting the "lipstick on the pig" to sell more tickets in a few months.

TFC literally sold us a plan to get us to buy tickets last year and then abandoned it a year later. What are they going to sell us next? Can't sell the atmosphere because everyone knows who makes that happen and those people are not too happy right now. What do we get, another plan? A useless mid-season friendlies in our season ticket package? Maybe front of the line opportunity for us to buy extra "premium" tickets for our friends!

They don't have the right people in place to manage the club.
They hired a rookie coach - and then canned him after 1.25 seasons! A rookie..brought in to turn the whole professional club around from academy to first team..in 1.25 years!!??
Committing to win means investing time (not just money) to grow a proper franchise - get the right people in from top to bottom - not just managers, but people who will run the club like a proper football club.

The people running the club right now are money people - That's why our boys are playing Liverpool mid-season at the Rogers Centre - That's why tickets have doubled in cost since year 1 without a single winning season.
I'm sure (IMO) that the academy was setup so quickly so that they could start churning out players to sell over in Europe. That Edu sale opened their eyes to $$$ with selling/loaning out players. I'm sure that's what they will sell us next -

"A great academy facility that you the SSH will pay for through season ticket increase so that we can sell players to Europe!"

can't wait! rant over

You win the "ryan's post of the day" award.

Congrats.

jabbronies
07-10-2012, 07:12 PM
You win the "ryan's post of the day" award.

Congrats.

Is that for agreeing with what I've said or because of the complete ridiculousness of it?

ryan
07-10-2012, 07:55 PM
Is that for agreeing with what I've said or because of the complete ridiculousness of it?

Total agreement with you.

Sweeper
07-10-2012, 08:04 PM
I want Anselmi out. It's been clear for quite a while that this guy's not a leader.

Brooker
07-11-2012, 05:10 AM
They don't know what they are doing. But even when they are told what to do, they abandon the plan!
Why did they abandon ship? Results were starting to come in and then they canned him? Why not wait till the end of the season? They already waited long enough before laying down the axe - season was already over by then however results were coming in. Seems like they got scared, figured a change in manager would show that they are committed to winning? How does changing the team philosophy before it has time to mature prove they are committed to the product on the field. That feels like being committed to putting the "lipstick on the pig" to sell more tickets in a few months.

TFC literally sold us a plan to get us to buy tickets last year and then abandoned it a year later. What are they going to sell us next? Can't sell the atmosphere because everyone knows who makes that happen and those people are not too happy right now. What do we get, another plan? A useless mid-season friendlies in our season ticket package? Maybe front of the line opportunity for us to buy extra "premium" tickets for our friends!

They don't have the right people in place to manage the club.
They hired a rookie coach - and then canned him after 1.25 seasons! A rookie..brought in to turn the whole professional club around from academy to first team..in 1.25 years!!??
Committing to win means investing time (not just money) to grow a proper franchise - get the right people in from top to bottom - not just managers, but people who will run the club like a proper football club.

The people running the club right now are money people - That's why our boys are playing Liverpool mid-season at the Rogers Centre - That's why tickets have doubled in cost since year 1 without a single winning season.
I'm sure (IMO) that the academy was setup so quickly so that they could start churning out players to sell over in Europe. That Edu sale opened their eyes to $$$ with selling/loaning out players. I'm sure that's what they will sell us next -

"A great academy facility that you the SSH will pay for through season ticket increase so that we can sell players to Europe!"

can't wait! rant over

This is all over the place. I don't even know how to respond. All I said was that all signs point to them wanting to be successful, they just have no clue what they're doing. You don't bring in a completely unknown player like Danny K with his wages if you don't care about the on field product because that's all he will improve. If we had only been bringing in big names as DP's I'd say they're just trying to put asses in the seats. Do you understand what I'm saying?

I'm not even going to get into the Academy conspiracy but I'll agree ticket prices are too high. I also think they were too low to begin with. :D

cmonyoureds
07-11-2012, 08:18 AM
Over the years, this forum has had great representation from dedicated individuals from all areas of BMO field, at all price points. These people used to go to all, or almost every game. On top of that, there were many folk who travelled 1-3 hours ONE WAY to go to the games. Over the years tho, the majority of these original folk have drifted away as they hit their breaking point. It is dead easy for you to take the position that you will go "no matter what" when you are paying $300 and a bit, per seat. If my seats were that price I really wouldn't care either.

I asked you several weeks ago what your breaking point was (price wise), and you never answered. If you honestly answer that question, you will begin to understand the nature of some of the comments on this forum and why you are getting into arguments and pissing contests with other forum members over the quality of football, or the price of this or that. It is also important to note that for many diehard supporters who still frequent this forum, $350 per seat or $700/pair is a lot of money!!! Not everyone has a great paying full time job, times are tough, shit happens (like you get a family:)). On top of it all, well over 80% of BMO stadium is not priced at $350 a seat... Someone who walks in off the street today would be asked to pay $1368 for a pair of medium grays!!!!

If Tom Anselmi told you that your pair of seats will cost $1500 next year would you pay that dickhead the money? How about $2660 for the privilege of being bent over by Tommy A? That is what that asshole wants for seats I used to have. Will you pay $2660 for your seats for next year??? To watch the undisputed worst team in the whole wide world??? I will answer the question on your behalf: "No, I, T-boy, would not pay $2660 to Tom Anselmi for my seats"

I am not trying to be mean. I am not picking on you. I enjoy your upbeat comments and positive approach and I understand where you are coming from. But I ask you to please reflect upon your own breaking point as I believe you do have one, just as most of those who are still TFC fans and supporters. Many believe that it is possible that the majority of Season ticket holders are nearing, or have reached their limit this year. Many of the folk on this forum who are paying $350 for their seats probably have not reached the end of the line, but they may be worried about what has and is going on in the rest of BMO and what effect that could have on the team. This team would fold so fast your head would spin if BMO had only 4,000 seats filled in the south end at $350 a pop.

Please walk a mile in somebody else's shoes!

p.s. I am curious what your thoughts are - please reply!


Now that would be an interesting poll......................would you pay $1368 for season tickets............I think we'd have a vastly different outcome than the current responses!!!!

jabbronies
07-11-2012, 08:54 AM
This is all over the place. I don't even know how to respond. All I said was that all signs point to them wanting to be successful, they just have no clue what they're doing. You don't bring in a completely unknown player like Danny K with his wages if you don't care about the on field product because that's all he will improve. If we had only been bringing in big names as DP's I'd say they're just trying to put asses in the seats. Do you understand what I'm saying?

I'm not even going to get into the Academy conspiracy but I'll agree ticket prices are too high. I also think they were too low to begin with. :D

Ya it turned into a rant, Sorry. This one also seems to be going down that route, but i'll try and sum it up in the end.

Aron Winter brought in Danny Koevermans and Torsten Frings. Both were part of "The Plan" that TFC were all gun-ho to follow last season. A plan that seemed to have soccer sense and was something the fans wanted. A Plan that helped season ticket sales last year. Fast forward to this year, a bump (or crater) in the road and now TFC can't sell that plan to the fans as way to sell season tickets. Do you think if Danny K or Torsten wasn't here, TFC would be smart enough to get a guy ike him? or would they panic at the sights of Nesta signing in Montreal and clamor to pick up some aging DP to sell tickets?

Can you honestly say that moving from a possession based 4-3-3 to an old school long ball 4-4-2 is what was needed to move this team forward in building a solid soccer foundation on the first team? Because it seems more like a move to grind out results now at the cost of the long term philosophy the team was trying to instill in the club. Why do that in a season that is already lost? Why not work through the hard times the way other teams do it in order to build that winning foundation? Why just be successful for part of the year when ticket renewals come up and then have to start over again the next. With a change in manager we are already seeing a change in personnel, wasted money on Plata, Soolsma on the bench and we are still loosing games in poor form.

If TFC were committed to winning, they would build the club like a proper sports team - with time and patience. A revolving door of players and managers isn't the answer and we are still doing that. It all wreaks of band-aid solutions in order to have a better second half of this season - not sure why -only to have to start again in the off season from scratch.

jrober38
07-11-2012, 09:15 AM
An inferior product, in comparison to what though? The EPL, Seria A, Bundesliga?!

Yes, inferior to all. But what else do we have in North America.....other than a completely different sport to watch! Personally, I hate baseball, so what else do I watch other than my favourite sport, soccer?

TFC is only an "inferior product" if there is something else comparable to go see in the city/area. There isn't another professional soccer team to go watch. The MLS is the MLS - its not a "premium football league" like the EPL or Seria A or Bundesliga, but we don't have any other choice here.

Inferior product with regards to us being the worst team in the league while having to pay significantly more in ticket prices than the average MLS team.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012/05/07/toronto_fc_tfc_tickets_2012_ticket_prices/

(http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012/05/07/toronto_fc_tfc_tickets_2012_ticket_prices/)If we were the best team in the league, maybe they could justify these prices. But reality is that we're the worst, and the franchise continues to gouge us with their pricing model.

T-boy
07-11-2012, 09:22 AM
This is all over the place. I don't even know how to respond. All I said was that all signs point to them wanting to be successful, they just have no clue what they're doing. You don't bring in a completely unknown player like Danny K with his wages if you don't care about the on field product because that's all he will improve. If we had only been bringing in big names as DP's I'd say they're just trying to put asses in the seats. Do you understand what I'm saying?

I'm not even going to get into the Academy conspiracy but I'll agree ticket prices are too high. I also think they were too low to begin with. :D

Aren't the ticket pricing levels just down to supply and demand? They clearly are still selling enough season tickets, so that's justification alone to the price raise. If you are in charge of a business, and your demand exceeds supply, don't you increase prices accordingly? So, if you look at it that way, there isn't much correlation between the price raise and the product on the field. Even IF the product has been sub par, the demand is still higher than supply for the season tickets, so the price goes up.

If somebody thinks there season ticket price is too high....don't renew. But the problem is, that until now, and probably still in the future, somebody else is still willing to buy that same season ticket for next year. Until TFC can NO LONGER sell season tickets, then they will still raise the price of them. It's fairly simple economics. The on field product, is not really relevant to the season ticket sales in Toronto, so far.

Suds
07-11-2012, 09:23 AM
I have a television with lots of channels offering me all those leagues for less than my season tickets.


Isn't that kind of the same as giving up dating and just watching porn instead?


Well if I dated a girl for six years who never put out, then yes.


Touché.

Haha! Fucking brilliant posts.

Nothing will get better until Anselmi steps away from TFC or is removed from all decisions affecting the club. Until then, all other steps amount to putting lipstick on a pig.

Prices may be lower, but the team still be crap because the structure of the organization is fundamentally broken.

T-boy
07-11-2012, 09:25 AM
Inferior product with regards to us being the worst team in the league while having to pay significantly more in ticket prices than the average MLS team.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012/05/07/toronto_fc_tfc_tickets_2012_ticket_prices/

(http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012/05/07/toronto_fc_tfc_tickets_2012_ticket_prices/)If we were the best team in the league, maybe they could justify these prices. But reality is that we're the worst, and the franchise continues to gouge us with their pricing model.

See my post above. There is clearly a high demand for season tickets in Toronto, hence the higher prices.

Also, you also can't compare TFC to other NLS clubs, given that you can't really travel to other cities on a regular basis to go to MLS games. I can't see many people traveling to Philly every week to go see MLS games! That would be horribly expensive.

When there is VERY limited supply, and clearly high demand, in a monopoly market, you can raise the prices as high as you possible can. That, purely, is why I don't have a problem with the price raise since TFC started.

denime
07-11-2012, 09:34 AM
Ya it turned into a rant, Sorry. This one also seems to be going down that route, but i'll try and sum it up in the end.

Aron Winter brought in Danny Koevermans and Torsten Frings. Both were part of "The Plan" that TFC were all gun-ho to follow last season. A plan that seemed to have soccer sense and was something the fans wanted. A Plan that helped season ticket sales last year. Fast forward to this year, a bump (or crater) in the road and now TFC can't sell that plan to the fans as way to sell season tickets. Do you think if Danny K or Torsten wasn't here, TFC would be smart enough to get a guy ike him? or would they panic at the sights of Nesta signing in Montreal and clamor to pick up some aging DP to sell tickets?

Can you honestly say that moving from a possession based 4-3-3 to an old school long ball 4-4-2 is what was needed to move this team forward in building a solid soccer foundation on the first team? Because it seems more like a move to grind out results now at the cost of the long term philosophy the team was trying to instill in the club. Why do that in a season that is already lost? Why not work through the hard times the way other teams do it in order to build that winning foundation? Why just be successful for part of the year when ticket renewals come up and then have to start over again the next. With a change in manager we are already seeing a change in personnel, wasted money on Plata, Soolsma on the bench and we are still loosing games in poor form.

If TFC were committed to winning, they would build the club like a proper sports team - with time and patience. A revolving door of players and managers isn't the answer and we are still doing that. It all wreaks of band-aid solutions in order to have a better second half of this season - not sure why -only to have to start again in the off season from scratch.

Your questions are right on button.

jrober38
07-11-2012, 09:36 AM
See my post above. There is clearly a high demand for season tickets in Toronto, hence the higher prices.

Also, you also can't compare TFC to other NLS clubs, given that you can't really travel to other cities on a regular basis to go to MLS games. I can't see many people traveling to Philly every week to go see MLS games! That would be horribly expensive.

When there is VERY limited supply, and clearly high demand, in a monopoly market, you can raise the prices as high as you possible can. That, purely, is why I don't have a problem with the price raise since TFC started.

You're right. There obviously is adequate demand for them to have this pricing point.

That's why I think it's a shame so many people continue to throw their money at this inept organization whose primary goal is making money.

Being the 5th largest market in North America, it's quite easy for fill a stadium with 20k+ people. It's a good form of entertainment regardless how bad the team is, and more importantly because of Toronto's total ineptitude in each sport we have a major franchise, fans are desperate to find a winning team, which is why they continue to support the Leafs, Raptors and TFC as much as they do.

I believe that if there was one dominant team in town that could overshadow the rest of the crappy ones, that ticket sales for the crappy would collapse. However, because all of our sports teams are total garbage, most people in the 20s and early 30s don't have any experience supporting a real winning team, so we feel compelled to continue supporting mediocrity because it's all most of us know.

denime
07-11-2012, 09:38 AM
See my post above. There is clearly a high demand for season tickets in Toronto, hence the higher prices.

Also, you also can't compare TFC to other NLS clubs, given that you can't really travel to other cities on a regular basis to go to MLS games. I can't see many people traveling to Philly every week to go see MLS games! That would be horribly expensive.

When there is VERY limited supply, and clearly high demand, in a monopoly market, you can raise the prices as high as you possible can. That, purely, is why I don't have a problem with the price raise since TFC started.

There WAS high demand for season tickets in Toronto,not anymore,renewal rate was down last year they exhausted their magic 16K waiting list.

T-boy
07-11-2012, 09:43 AM
You're right. There obviously is adequate demand for them to have this pricing point.

That's why I think it's a shame so many people continue to throw their money at this inept organization whose primary goal is making money.

Being the 5th largest market in North America, it's quite easy for fill a stadium with 20k+ people. It's a good form of entertainment regardless how bad the team is, and more importantly because of Toronto's total ineptitude in each sport we have a major franchise, fans are desperate to find a winning team, which is why they continue to support the Leafs, Raptors and TFC as much as they do.

I believe that if there was one dominant team in town that could overshadow the rest of the crappy ones, that ticket sales for the crappy would collapse. However, because all of our sports teams are total garbage, most people in the 20s and early 30s don't have any experience supporting a real winning team, so we feel compelled to continue supporting mediocrity because it's all most of us know.

I think that's where I differ from a lot of people on this forum. I've always followed MY Oxford United, where I was born and raised. They've never been a winning team, and fell from the First Division to the Conference. I always got a season ticket cos they were in my blood. If I had "just" wanted to see a winning team, I'd have gone to see Reading play, as they were going up while Oxford were going down the leagues!

We (football fans) should never have a sense of entitlement when it comes to our team. The majority of football teams in the world hardly EVER have success. But their fans don't "jump ship".

If anybody wants to chat to a boring old Oxford fan, I'll be in Joe's tonight prior to the game. I'll be wearing my Oxford jersey! :)

T-boy
07-11-2012, 09:46 AM
There WAS high demand for season tickets in Toronto,not anymore,renewal rate was down last year they exhausted their magic 16K waiting list.

Agreed - "up until this point" MLSE have had an easy market to sell to, and people clambering for tickets, no matter what the product on the field has been. I doubt next season will quite be the same, but I imagine the people who go "just to see live football" irrespective of result, will still renew. All the people who stand around me in 113 ALL support other teams (liverpool, a bunch of arsenal fans, a spurs fan etc etc) so they ALL just go cos they like the atmosphere. I doubt any of them would giv eup their season ticket, even if TFC are stone last this season in the East.

Oldtimer
07-11-2012, 09:49 AM
When there is VERY limited supply, and clearly high demand, in a monopoly market, you can raise the prices as high as you possible can. That, purely, is why I don't have a problem with the price raise since TFC started.

You say you're "just a fan," but posts like these sure make it seem like you work for ML$E. ;)

The problem with this model is it's short-term. It actually makes much more sense for ML$E to charge less, fill the stadium, and build a loyal fanbase. By thinking short-term (and probably Tom A's bonus is based on a maximum 1 year time horizon), ML$E actually is damaging their long-term product value. That is by definition, stupidity. If I were Bell/Rogers, I wouldn't stand for it and would turf management at the earliest opportunity.

Rotating coaches merely for short-term win rather than a cogent philosophy is also an example of this incredibly poor thinking. If Winter had to go (and I think that he did), putting in some effort to maintain a similar philosophy was and is crucial. Thomas Rongen should have been made first team coach.

denime
07-11-2012, 09:50 AM
I think that's where I differ from a lot of people on this forum. I've always followed MY Oxford United, where I was born and raised. They've never been a winning team, and fell from the First Division to the Conference. I always got a season ticket cos they were in my blood. If I had "just" wanted to see a winning team, I'd have gone to see Reading play, as they were going up while Oxford were going down the leagues!

We (football fans) should never have a sense of entitlement when it comes to our team. The majority of football teams in the world hardly EVER have success. But their fans don't "jump ship".

If anybody wants to chat to a boring old Oxford fan, I'll be in Joe's tonight prior to the game. I'll be wearing my Oxford jersey! :)

Did you pay for Oxford ticket more that MANU?

Considering that TFC Tickets are more expensive than MANU,I would not mind to see Rooney and co playing at BMO every 2nd weekend.

It is not that we TFC fans having a sense of entitlement when it comes to our team,it is simply that many fans are being out-priced and can not afford to go,if it goes that way,BMO will be like ACC when ML is playing,quite boring.

jrober38
07-11-2012, 09:53 AM
I think that's where I differ from a lot of people on this forum. I've always followed MY Oxford United, where I was born and raised. They've never been a winning team, and fell from the First Division to the Conference. I always got a season ticket cos they were in my blood. If I had "just" wanted to see a winning team, I'd have gone to see Reading play, as they were going up while Oxford were going down the leagues!

We (football fans) should never have a sense of entitlement when it comes to our team. The majority of football teams in the world hardly EVER have success. But their fans don't "jump ship".

If anybody wants to chat to a boring old Oxford fan, I'll be in Joe's tonight prior to the game. I'll be wearing my Oxford jersey! :)

It's an entirely different culture growing up in the UK where there's close to 100 pro teams.

In North America where winning teams are idolized and losers are ridiculed, everyone wants to be the winning team, and when that's unattainable, fans jump ship or find another sports team to entertain them.

In Toronto, there's no standard of excellence where one team does well every year, or has a rich modern tradition of winning and competing for titles. The Leafs are the laughing stock of the NHL, the Raptors can't attract any significant talent, and TFC thrive off of a soccer crazy city despite never having a winning season.

Because there's no standard of excellence in sports, there's no one else to cheer for, because none of our teams win.

This is why I think the greatest thing that could ever happen to Toronto sports would be the addition of a second NHL team to the GTA. By eliminating MLSEs monopoly on sports, and creating a rival franchise that could push them to get better, peoples' expectations would increase because of variety, and all teams involved would have to do more to try and attract and retain fans.

DaBandit
07-11-2012, 09:57 AM
Agreed - "up until this point" MLSE have had an easy market to sell to, and people clambering for tickets, no matter what the product on the field has been. I doubt next season will quite be the same, but I imagine the people who go "just to see live football" irrespective of result, will still renew. All the people who stand around me in 113 ALL support other teams (liverpool, a bunch of arsenal fans, a spurs fan etc etc) so they ALL just go cos they like the atmosphere. I doubt any of them would giv eup their season ticket, even if TFC are stone last this season in the East.

Yes your right but as Tiberius mentioned yesterday at around 7pm yesterday, everyone has a breaking point. I gave up my seasons at the end of year 4, my seasons were running me something like $1800+ for a pair in section 107.. As much as I like the atmosphere, thats a little much don't you think considering the product they put on the field.. I think ML$E will have a very hard time getting people to pick up their seasons next year, especially in the higher price point areas. I'm sure they will bring out a new shiny toy that they will try to entice everyone with, but I think most peoples patience has run out and they won't be fooled into buying hope again.

DaBandit
07-11-2012, 09:59 AM
I think that's where I differ from a lot of people on this forum. I've always followed MY Oxford United, where I was born and raised. They've never been a winning team, and fell from the First Division to the Conference. I always got a season ticket cos they were in my blood. If I had "just" wanted to see a winning team, I'd have gone to see Reading play, as they were going up while Oxford were going down the leagues!

We (football fans) should never have a sense of entitlement when it comes to our team. The majority of football teams in the world hardly EVER have success. But their fans don't "jump ship".

If anybody wants to chat to a boring old Oxford fan, I'll be in Joe's tonight prior to the game. I'll be wearing my Oxford jersey! :)

wow an appearance by Mariner or Tom Anselmi himself, may lead to a full fledged riot at Joe's... Just kidding, don't take offence just a poor attempt at humour.. :)

T-boy
07-11-2012, 10:00 AM
You say you're "just a fan," but posts like these sure make it seem like you work for ML$E. ;)

The problem with this model is it's short-term. It actually makes much more sense for ML$E to charge less, fill the stadium, and build a loyal fanbase. By thinking short-term (and probably Tom A's bonus is based on a maximum 1 year time horizon), ML$E actually is damaging their long-term product value. That is by definition, stupidity. If I were Bell/Rogers, I wouldn't stand for it and would turf management at the earliest opportunity.

Rotating coaches merely for short-term win rather than a cogent philosophy is also an example of this incredibly poor thinking. If Winter had to go (and I think that he did), putting in some effort to maintain a similar philosophy was and is crucial. Thomas Rongen should have been made first team coach.

I definitely don't work for the club! I wouldn't do that in a million years!

I agree TFC "should" have hired somebody to keep the same system. BUT, we also know that the current furst team have NO idea and no skills enough to play the system. As long as the academy are still learning 4-3-3 (which they are) then the future can still be bright. But they really HAD to change the system for the first team. Dunfield, Harden, Hall, RJ, Ecks, those guys are NEVER going to be able to play the 4-3-3 system, unfortunately (no disrespect to them!).

Stouffville_RPB
07-11-2012, 10:01 AM
There are options for those who just want to see live football for an affordable price (see CSL). If it must be pro-level then TFC is the only option and people are forced to pay what they say.

For the supporters life (in the stands) I've been getting my fill at the Canada games that have recently been held at BMO. One can get everything TFC offers elsewhere.

The one thing everyone can agree on is that it is a shame that something so amazing has been ruined the way it has.

T-boy
07-11-2012, 10:03 AM
It's an entirely different culture growing up in the UK where there's close to 100 pro teams.

In North America where winning teams are idolized and losers are ridiculed, everyone wants to be the winning team, and when that's unattainable, fans jump ship or find another sports team to entertain them.

In Toronto, there's no standard of excellence where one team does well every year, or has a rich modern tradition of winning and competing for titles. The Leafs are the laughing stock of the NHL, the Raptors can't attract any significant talent, and TFC thrive off of a soccer crazy city despite never having a winning season.

Because there's no standard of excellence in sports, there's no one else to cheer for, because none of our teams win.

This is why I think the greatest thing that could ever happen to Toronto sports would be the addition of a second NHL team to the GTA. By eliminating MLSEs monopoly on sports, and creating a rival franchise that could push them to get better, peoples' expectations would increase because of variety, and all teams involved would have to do more to try and attract and retain fans.

Agreed about another NHL team in Toronto. That would kick MLSE up the butt, for sure.

But as far as football is concerned. I think the "average" TFC season ticket holder is happy JUST to go see a live game. The majority of them don't care SO much about results as they care about the atmosphere, the chanting, the banter with their surrounding friends. That is the problem with TFC/MLS as far as I can see. The majority of fans around me always wear their "european clubs" jersey. So, are TFC " in their blood" like Arsenal or Liverpool are? No, unfortunately.

T-boy
07-11-2012, 10:04 AM
wow an appearance by Mariner or Tom Anselmi himself, may lead to a full fledged riot at Joe's... Just kidding, don't take offence just a poor attempt at humour.. :)

I'll wear my Anselmi mask! :p

DaBandit
07-11-2012, 10:05 AM
You say you're "just a fan," but posts like these sure make it seem like you work for ML$E. ;)

The problem with this model is it's short-term. It actually makes much more sense for ML$E to charge less, fill the stadium, and build a loyal fanbase. By thinking short-term (and probably Tom A's bonus is based on a maximum 1 year time horizon), ML$E actually is damaging their long-term product value. That is by definition, stupidity. If I were Bell/Rogers, I wouldn't stand for it and would turf management at the earliest opportunity.

Rotating coaches merely for short-term win rather than a cogent philosophy is also an example of this incredibly poor thinking. If Winter had to go (and I think that he did), putting in some effort to maintain a similar philosophy was and is crucial. Thomas Rongen should have been made first team coach.

You know i was really happy when i heard the news that ML$E had sold the franchises to Bell/Rogers, but the more i think about it the more i think things will remain just as bad. The topping on the cake was when i called Bell customer service yesterday about multiple over charges on my bills recently.. Yup, just another faceless corporation only trying to maximize profits.. I think it will be the same shit just a different day.. hope I'm wrong.

T-boy
07-11-2012, 10:06 AM
Yes your right but as Tiberius mentioned yesterday at around 7pm yesterday, everyone has a breaking point. I gave up my seasons at the end of year 4, my seasons were running me something like $1800+ for a pair in section 107.. As much as I like the atmosphere, thats a little much don't you think considering the product they put on the field.. I think ML$E will have a very hard time getting people to pick up their seasons next year, especially in the higher price point areas. I'm sure they will bring out a new shiny toy that they will try to entice everyone with, but I think most peoples patience has run out and they won't be fooled into buying hope again.

As I was saying on this thread yesterday, it then comes down to WHERE in BMO your season ticket is located. I'm in the supporters section, paying WAY less than $1800 plus a pair.

DaBandit
07-11-2012, 10:11 AM
It's an entirely different culture growing up in the UK where there's close to 100 pro teams.

In North America where winning teams are idolized and losers are ridiculed, everyone wants to be the winning team, and when that's unattainable, fans jump ship or find another sports team to entertain them.

In Toronto, there's no standard of excellence where one team does well every year, or has a rich modern tradition of winning and competing for titles. The Leafs are the laughing stock of the NHL, the Raptors can't attract any significant talent, and TFC thrive off of a soccer crazy city despite never having a winning season.

Because there's no standard of excellence in sports, there's no one else to cheer for, because none of our teams win.

This is why I think the greatest thing that could ever happen to Toronto sports would be the addition of a second NHL team to the GTA. By eliminating MLSEs monopoly on sports, and creating a rival franchise that could push them to get better, peoples' expectations would increase because of variety, and all teams involved would have to do more to try and attract and retain fans.

exactly.. which is why ML$E is throwing all it weight and influence at the NHL not to allow it to happen. Why do you think the NHL vetoed any and all attempts by balsillie to get a franchise and then move them into Hamilton?

Oldtimer
07-11-2012, 10:31 AM
But they really HAD to change the system for the first team. Dunfield, Harden, Hall, RJ, Ecks, those guys are NEVER going to be able to play the 4-3-3 system, unfortunately (no disrespect to them!).

That's partly true, they couldn't play the highly complex Ajax system. However, a simplified version could certainly be played by those guys. Look at KC, their guys playing 4-3-3 aren't any better than our guys.

Changing it to longball is giving up on the system totally. They just had to tweak it. As a coach I taught a simplified 4-3-3 to high-school age kids. Any professional player ought to be able to pick up a simplified version.

Stouffville_RPB
07-11-2012, 10:37 AM
It's an entirely different culture growing up in the UK where there's close to 100 pro teams.

In North America where winning teams are idolized and losers are ridiculed, everyone wants to be the winning team, and when that's unattainable, fans jump ship or find another sports team to entertain them.

In Toronto, there's no standard of excellence where one team does well every year, or has a rich modern tradition of winning and competing for titles. The Leafs are the laughing stock of the NHL, the Raptors can't attract any significant talent, and TFC thrive off of a soccer crazy city despite never having a winning season.

Because there's no standard of excellence in sports, there's no one else to cheer for, because none of our teams win.

This is why I think the greatest thing that could ever happen to Toronto sports would be the addition of a second NHL team to the GTA. By eliminating MLSEs monopoly on sports, and creating a rival franchise that could push them to get better, peoples' expectations would increase because of variety, and all teams involved would have to do more to try and attract and retain fans.

There are people that only will go to winning teams, those are the casuals. Most people here know what it means to support a team.

I can't speak for everyone but I think the majority of those dropping tickets come seasons end (myself included) are doing so not because the team continues to lose but because of management reasons. It's a statement that people refuse to be taken advantage of anymore, that the same bologna FO is feeding us doesn't cut it. There is no point to renovating a bathroom when the real problem with the house is the foundation.

jrober38
07-11-2012, 11:04 AM
There are people that only will go to winning teams, those are the casuals. Most people here know what it means to support a team.

I can't speak for everyone but I think the majority of those dropping tickets come seasons end (myself included) are doing so not because the team continues to lose but because of management reasons. It's a statement that people refuse to be taken advantage of anymore, that the same bologna FO is feeding us doesn't cut it. There is no point to renovating a bathroom when the real problem with the house is the foundation.

They're the same thing.

If the team was winning, no one would care about the management structure. However, because they've been terrible for 6 straight years, management has been put under a microscope by the fans and they're largely to blame for this mess.

Hitcho
07-11-2012, 11:20 AM
Hah - I wonder if some poor fucker has been told to read this thread by MLSE and report back with a summary. Would like to see that summary if so! :D

Oldtimer
07-11-2012, 11:35 AM
Hah - I wonder if some poor fucker has been told to read this thread by MLSE and report back with a summary. Would like to see that summary if so! :D

2/3 demanding price cuts. Not traditional for ML$E, but Rogers understands about supply and demand:

http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=400367

(Up to 51% cut in Bills prices).

jrober38
07-11-2012, 11:47 AM
2/3 demanding price cuts. Not traditional for ML$E, but Rogers understands about supply and demand:

http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=400367

(Up to 51% cut in Bills prices).

This is fantastic customer service:

"As a result of the new pricing structure, 58 per cent of tickets are less than $100, and 88 per cent of tickets are less than $150. Those who have already purchased tickets as part of the "Bills in Toronto Series" will have the option to receive a refund for the price difference or have their seats upgraded."

ManUtd4ever
07-11-2012, 02:27 PM
I wouldn't want to be a TFC account representative next season.

narduch
07-11-2012, 05:17 PM
I wouldn't want to be a TFC account representative next season.

Next season? I wouldn't want to be one in the next few months coming up (renewals aren't that far away)

tiberius
07-11-2012, 11:34 PM
Hah - I wonder if some poor fucker has been told to read this thread by MLSE and report back with a summary. Would like to see that summary if so! :D

I am not sure you really understand the MLSE ass kissing culture. The poor fucker, if he was a good hire that fits into their culture, will report back that the Red Patch Boys appreciate what Tommy A is doing, and the majority of posters, led by some guy named T-Boi believe that seat prices should be doubled for 2013. With a report like that, that poor fucker will be enshrined in the MLSE bureaucracy from now until retirement...

T-boy
07-12-2012, 09:59 AM
I am not sure you really understand the MLSE ass kissing culture. The poor fucker, if he was a good hire that fits into their culture, will report back that the Red Patch Boys appreciate what Tommy A is doing, and the majority of posters, led by some guy named T-Boi believe that seat prices should be doubled for 2013. With a report like that, that poor fucker will be enshrined in the MLSE bureaucracy from now until retirement...

Please quote where I have EVER said that season ticket prices should be doubled?

If some people don't understand simple supply and demand, then you never will. If there is DEMAND for tickets in Toronto (which there clearly is) you keep prices high. It's simple economics! TFC have sold out all their season ticket quota for every season so far. In ANY business, WHY would you ever decrease prices? TFC even increased the capacity of the stadium by building the north end...and STILL they sell out most games! Quite simple, MLSE is doing good business, and the poor suckers of Toronto sports public have continued to buy the seats!

It's nothing to do with RPB, or supporters groups. The "average soccer fan" in Toronto will STILL buy season tickets for TFC, its as simple as that! Until which point the public of Toronto stop buying tickets, the prices will remain high.

You all have to remember that the people that post on THIS forum, is not the "average TFC season ticket holder". You guys are all exceptions, and not the average at all. I know many season ticket holders who say things like "TFC are terrible, but I LOVE going to games!". They are paying $1000 or so for their season ticket. And they will be renewing next year. The football fanbase in the GTA is huge, so prices will remain high.

I'm not advocating "doubling prices" - I'm stating the simple truth that as long as demand exceeds supply, prices remain high. Anybody else do economics in school?! TFC is simply price elasticity of supply and demand as a working example.

denime
07-12-2012, 10:04 AM
I am not sure you really understand the MLSE ass kissing culture. The poor fucker, if he was a good hire that fits into their culture, will report back that the Red Patch Boys appreciate what Tommy A is doing, and the majority of posters, led by some guy named T-Boi believe that seat prices should be doubled for 2013. With a report like that, that poor fucker will be enshrined in the MLSE bureaucracy from now until retirement...

Please do not put RPB into same sentence with T-Boy,he represent himself only.

RPB made it clear with a banner behind the south Goal that we WANT ANSELMI OUT.

T-boy
07-12-2012, 10:39 AM
I'm not representing anybody!

Thanks for the guys I met last night from RPB - coach (briefly) and stoufvilleRPB. It was a pleasure talking TFC and football with you, and we realised that we pretty much agreed on most things TFC. They can also vouch, now, that I'm not Anselmi or Mariner or anybody else from the club in disguise! :)

brad
07-12-2012, 11:01 AM
I wouldn't want to be a TFC account representative next season.

Really? I think they are going to have a pretty easy job. Lots of time to kick back and surf the web at work....

Seriously, I bet they get more radio silence than irritate people. I think apathy has set in.

ManUtd4ever
07-12-2012, 11:05 AM
Really? I think they are going to have a pretty easy job. Lots of time to kick back and surf the web at work....

Seriously, I bet they get more radio silence than irritate people. I think apathy has set in.

Yeah, but they must also have quotas to meet. ;)

tiberius
07-12-2012, 05:01 PM
Please do not put RPB into same sentence with T-Boy,he represent himself only.

RPB made it clear with a banner behind the south Goal that we WANT ANSELMI OUT.

Clearly both you and T-boy miss the point I was making - the MLSE lurker makes up what the upper management wants to hear - not what is being said. For example a discussion on supply and demand gets twisted into doubling the prices, or the supporter group loves the FO... sorry for the confusion...

nfitz
07-12-2012, 05:06 PM
Clearly both you and T-boy miss the point I was making - the MLSE lurker makes up what the upper management wants to hear - not what is being said. For example a discussion on supply and demand gets twisted into doubling the prices, or the supporter group loves the FO... sorry for the confusion...Don't be sorry. It was a great post! You hit the nail on the head. Not sure why anyone would react to what you wrote ...

T-boy
07-13-2012, 08:18 AM
Don't be sorry. It was a great post! You hit the nail on the head. Not sure why anyone would react to what you wrote ...

You would react to a post that claimed you worked for ML$E, wouldn't you?! Or claimed that you'd said you wanted season ticket prices doubled?! :mad:

ryan
07-13-2012, 09:01 AM
You would react to a post that claimed you worked for ML$E, wouldn't you?! Or claimed that you'd said you wanted season ticket prices doubled?! :mad:

But you do, don't you Tommy? You just wore your T-Boy mask to the Vancouver game. :D

nfitz
07-13-2012, 09:49 AM
You would react to a post that claimed you worked for ML$E, wouldn't you?! Or claimed that you'd said you wanted season ticket prices doubled?! :mad:That post did neither. Read it carefully. It was saying that the MLSE employee would report stuff they didn't know was true ... that stuff is what they would report, despite the truth. The post wasn't about you ... it was about what a fictitious MLSE employee would write.

T-boy
07-13-2012, 09:52 AM
That post did neither. Read it carefully. It was saying that the MLSE employee would report stuff they didn't know was true ... that stuff is what they would report, despite the truth. The post wasn't about you ... it was about what a fictitious MLSE employee would write.

arrrr, got it now! It wasn't overly clear! I still say that any MLSE employee reading anything I've written would definitely never think I want ticket prices increased, though! If some people on here read it that way, I definitely don't think that way! I just think that "in the past" MLSE have been justified in increases due to the ticket demand. But going into the future, after this season, that wouldn't be the case. If they tried to increase ticket prices next year it would be slightly rediculous!

nfitz
07-13-2012, 10:04 AM
I still say that any MLSE employee reading anything I've written would definitely never think I want ticket prices increased, though!They would never think you want ticket prices raised. But if they want to secure their promotion, they would say otherwise to their boss.

T-boy
07-13-2012, 11:56 AM
They would never think you want ticket prices raised. But if they want to secure their promotion, they would say otherwise to their boss.

Why am I being blamed for everything here?! :(

nfitz
07-13-2012, 12:09 PM
Why am I being blamed for everything here?! :(??? No one is blaming you on this. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!

tiberius
07-13-2012, 02:31 PM
Hah - I wonder if some poor fucker has been told to read this thread by MLSE and report back with a summary. Would like to see that summary if so! http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.png


I am not sure you really understand the MLSE ass kissing culture. The poor fucker, if he was a good hire that fits into their culture, will report back that the Red Patch Boys appreciate what Tommy A is doing, and the majority of posters, led by some guy named T-Boi believe that seat prices should be doubled for 2013. With a report like that, that poor fucker will be enshrined in the MLSE bureaucracy from now until retirement...


You would react to a post that claimed you worked for ML$E, wouldn't you?! Or claimed that you'd said you wanted season ticket prices doubled?! :mad:


Please read my post - I did not say that you said you wanted ticket prices doubled. I can't figure out how you could misinterpret... Now wait a minute... I've got it! If what you say is true that I said you wanted to double ticket prices, then you must be the poor fucker that Hitcho was talking about!!

Aha! Arrrrr.... Got you matey!

T-boy
07-16-2012, 02:46 PM
Oh you pirate! :p

Nuvinho
07-17-2012, 01:20 PM
How about we all tell our account reps - "I will only renew, if Anselmi is out".

Auzzy
07-17-2012, 02:55 PM
Poll needs a new response: "A customized ESQ Toronto FC Fanwatch!"

__wowza
07-17-2012, 02:58 PM
Poll needs a new response: "A customized ESQ Toronto FC Fanwatch!"

that would require the FO provide supporters with a well oiled machine where all the pieces fit g:D

Nuvinho
07-17-2012, 02:59 PM
I bet the custom TFC watches make your wrist turn green.

Dave67
07-17-2012, 04:11 PM
I bet the watch takes one tick forward and three ticks back.

ryan
07-17-2012, 06:27 PM
I bet each digit is a different font, size and style because 18 different people designed it.

ryan
07-19-2012, 08:50 AM
new thread idea

What percentage of SSH increase are you willing to pay if TFC makes the playoffs?
-5%
-10%
-20%
-Just keep on doubling Tommy Boy


*note, I do not work for MLSE, just curious. http://www.virtualsportsnetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/shifty2.gif

Nuvinho
07-19-2012, 08:55 AM
new thread idea

What percentage of SSH increase are you willing to pay if TFC makes the playoffs?
-5%
-10%
-20%
-Just keep on doubling Tommy Boy


*note, I do not work for MLSE, just curious. http://www.virtualsportsnetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/shifty2.gif

I still want a decrease or prices to remain the same.

TorCanSoc
07-19-2012, 09:04 AM
I have not gone through the reems and reems of posts. I imagine MLSE marketing team is having a field day with this thread. They're losing the die-hards. I remember MSLE getting awards for how a sports franchise should be started. I remember something about, the best ever start for a franchise in any sport... is that right?

Is there an award for choking a golden goose? Because after this season... if they spill out of the CCL they are going to lose a lot of people. My guess is the SSH renewal number will be shaved down to under 10K. The companies will still buy of course, its a ridiculously easy thing to write off, expense-wise. MLSE are losing soccer fanatics, and that's the sad part.

TFCRegina
07-19-2012, 09:21 AM
Slashing of prices
Move away from bullshit family friendly marketing
Living in the city would help (but i wouldn't own tickets if i lived there at this point - i want wins - if you can't produce wins, the tickets have no value - i don't pay for a fucking party or dating service which is what the latest TFC ads seem to suggest)

Pookie
07-19-2012, 09:24 AM
^ if this is what we pay for loses, imagine what would happen if you started paying for wins?

Some folks are willing to drop $125/ticket once to see a game like Real Madrid. Those folks are not willing to pay that each and every game. Nor are they the ones that keep the stadium semi-full

T-boy
07-19-2012, 09:40 AM
Even if TFC made the play offs this season, that still wouldn't justify a price increase in any shape or form! The FO need to keep the die-hards as well as the glory hunters for next season. The glory hunters may pay more money, but none of the die-hards will.

OfficeGuy
07-19-2012, 12:04 PM
I have seen SSH walking thru sections - ask them what they are up to - they are looking for new seats that are cheaper than their current ones

have yet to see a FO member walking around asking about the venue and the value - but I see it every game esp in the 200s

jazzy
07-24-2012, 10:07 PM
if they screw up future stars as henry ,..morgan...pacher,...cammaergo..? spelling..........that would make me give up....also pricing better not rise!.......it should drop but these guys will find a way (like bell and rogers ),..to rip us,..and make it look cheaper.......like buying a service from rogers once you add up all the charges.............you can't afford it....I hate it that their are some great people sitting near me, lol,......this year the main reason to attend the games

greatwhitenorf
07-26-2012, 09:33 AM
They've beaten it out of me. All the hope, enthusiasm, and resiliance I started out with is gone. I remember fabricating a professional reason to weasel my way into the stadium while it was under construction, just to walk through the stands and check out sightlines. Having enjoyed previous incarnations of the pro game at Varsity, CNE and Centennial stadiums, this venue looked perfect. Bought six seats as soon as I could. Got in as part of a group for another half dozen.

Now, we're down to our final pair. And this is likely the end. My kids can't be arsed to go to games, despite lifelong involvement as players, coaches and refs. My wife just rolls her eyes when I ask her to go. My friends think I'm insane to spend money on the team. The Eurosnob two doors down mocks me. Can't even give them away to clients.

And the club don't give me a leg to stand on. As the product has worsened, the prices have risen. A vicious circle that can only be broken when enough people say 'Enough!'

So that'll be it. I'll cop the odd cheap ticket(s) from bargain deals on social media or corporate handouts. Nice thing is that I will be able to stroll into whatever section and sit where I like. I'm doing that now anyway, since there's so many open seats around the ground. I've quite enjoyed sitting near field side and loudly and clearly, yet unprofanely, letting the players know what I think, then watching the glaring reaction of the security meatheads and lauche cops, pointing towards me or muttering into headset mics. Like I'm supposed to be intimidated. Nah, just so disappointed that this sort of thinking is what's being used to suppress a dissenting viewpoint.

Really sad to see it come to this.

backbeat
07-26-2012, 10:00 AM
i've had season tickets right from the beginning as well.

Bursting at the thought of each and every TFC game. Loved the packed house atmosphere. Everyone at work or socializing would ask me about the games and how they'd love to go but can't get tickets - if ever i wasn't going could I please think of them - that sort of thing. My wife was right into it, she would go online to try and get extra tickets when possible.

That has all changed - she argues that it is a waste of time and money to renew and go to the games now. She laughs if I ask her to go to a game. Rarely does anyone ever mention TFC to me at work or socially anymore except in derision.

and i must say the wind has been sucked out of me - i LOVE my seats - the only reason i've rationalized renewing is that I wouldn't be able to get those particular seats again and that someday the atmosphere and fun has to return. I am now doubting that it will in my lifetime.

I doubt i will renew this time around - i don't have the energy.

What was and what is now is a gulf that i would have sworn was unimaginable - and to think we used to post about expanding the stadium....so sad....

T-boy
07-26-2012, 10:57 PM
I didn't know where else to ask this, so I'll ask it here.

I've been wondering lately why some of you post here? I'm not trying to be funny or get on anybody's back - but it seems like some posters are so jaded that they clearly aren't enjoying TFC, and don't enjoying posting here either. And a couple of the mods are like that too - its all SO negative that I wonder what entertainment at all some people are getting from posting on a forum about a football club they clearly hate deep down! Some people (like myself) post multiple times a day, but clearly just think the whole thing is a horrible nightmare (supporting TFC). Why keep posting if you hate it so much? Why keep posting if everything is a complaint the vast majority of the time? I just know that if something is annoying me so much that I have nothing positive to say, I stop doing it.

Nobody has to answer if they don't want to - it was just a thought!

kodiakTFC
07-26-2012, 10:59 PM
I didn't know where else to ask this, so I'll ask it here.

I've been wondering lately why some of you post here? I'm not trying to be funny or get on anybody's back - but it seems like some posters are so jaded that they clearly aren't enjoying TFC, and don't enjoying posting here either. And a couple of the mods are like that too - its all SO negative that I wonder what entertainment at all some people are getting from posting on a forum about a football club they clearly hate deep down! Some people (like myself) post multiple times a day, but clearly just think the whole thing is a horrible nightmare (supporting TFC). Why keep posting if you hate it so much? Why keep posting if everything is a complaint the vast majority of the time? I just know that if something is annoying me so much that I have nothing positive to say, I stop doing it.

Nobody has to answer if they don't want to - it was just a thought!

Mmhmm. If you care enough about this team to post on a message board, you probably won't be leaving anytime soon. Cheer up fellas.

backbeat
07-27-2012, 07:59 AM
I didn't know where else to ask this, so I'll ask it here.

I've been wondering lately why some of you post here? I'm not trying to be funny or get on anybody's back - but it seems like some posters are so jaded that they clearly aren't enjoying TFC, and don't enjoying posting here either. And a couple of the mods are like that too - its all SO negative that I wonder what entertainment at all some people are getting from posting on a forum about a football club they clearly hate deep down! Some people (like myself) post multiple times a day, but clearly just think the whole thing is a horrible nightmare (supporting TFC). Why keep posting if you hate it so much? Why keep posting if everything is a complaint the vast majority of the time? I just know that if something is annoying me so much that I have nothing positive to say, I stop doing it.

Nobody has to answer if they don't want to - it was just a thought!

just a thought my ass....:facepalm:

I've been following soccer in this town since the Toronto Metro-Croatia were at Varsity back in the 70's - and had been hoping for its return and bought season's tickets as soon as i could for TFC.

I don't 'hate' the football club - that is a rather silly comment. I am dismayed by the way it has been managed and how they have successfully sucked the life out it. To most people that is pretty evident.

T-boy
07-27-2012, 09:10 AM
just a thought my ass....:facepalm:

I've been following soccer in this town since the Toronto Metro-Croatia were at Varsity back in the 70's - and had been hoping for its return and bought season's tickets as soon as i could for TFC.

I don't 'hate' the football club - that is a rather silly comment. I am dismayed by the way it has been managed and how they have successfully sucked the life out it. To most people that is pretty evident.

What?! Why are you all questioning when I ask a valid question? YES, it was "just a thought!". What else could it be?! I'm asking the forum their opinion on something, that's all!

Can you all STOP suggesting that I have some deeper motive behind what I type on here! It's getting rediculous! I'm just a fan like any of you! Nothing more!

Stouffville_RPB
07-27-2012, 09:15 AM
I didn't know where else to ask this, so I'll ask it here.

I've been wondering lately why some of you post here? I'm not trying to be funny or get on anybody's back - but it seems like some posters are so jaded that they clearly aren't enjoying TFC, and don't enjoying posting here either. And a couple of the mods are like that too - its all SO negative that I wonder what entertainment at all some people are getting from posting on a forum about a football club they clearly hate deep down! Some people (like myself) post multiple times a day, but clearly just think the whole thing is a horrible nightmare (supporting TFC). Why keep posting if you hate it so much? Why keep posting if everything is a complaint the vast majority of the time? I just know that if something is annoying me so much that I have nothing positive to say, I stop doing it.

Nobody has to answer if they don't want to - it was just a thought!

What you are reading is the disappointment. People here don't hate TFC, it's the exact opposite, the majority of the people on here love TFC. They spend their free time on the boards, finding news on the team, reading stats on the players. They spend their hard earned money on tickets every season or dedicate the time to watch them. Some paint banners or organize tailgates. People on here care deeply about the team. What you're reading is fans finally waking up, like someone finally standing up and saying enough is enough in an abusive relationship.

There are people in this thread that have tried everything they can think of to get the message through to those in charge that they are unhappy. The realization has begun to sink in with more and more people that the only thing that FO cares about is the bottom line. So the only way to get the message through to those people is to speak their language. When the masses drop their season tickets and the FO's bottom line is effected only then will we truly see change.

gate7
07-27-2012, 09:46 AM
Can you all STOP suggesting that I have some deeper motive behind what I type on here! It's getting rediculous! I'm just a fan like any of you! Nothing more![/QUOTE]



i didn't see it that suggestion from the previous posts....




anyway, i've gone from 8 seats in the first season (med. gray) to 2 seats this season. I can't seem to "give" seats away anymore.

simply put: TFC need to drop prices for me to reniew next year......

T-boy
07-27-2012, 09:47 AM
Good post Stouff! Good answer.

backbeat
07-27-2012, 09:52 AM
What?! Why are you all questioning when I ask a valid question? YES, it was "just a thought!". What else could it be?! I'm asking the forum their opinion on something, that's all!

Can you all STOP suggesting that I have some deeper motive behind what I type on here! It's getting rediculous! I'm just a fan like any of you! Nothing more!

no as it wasn't just a thought - you were directly questioning support for the team and wondering if we hate the team so much why we're here....

T-boy
07-27-2012, 09:59 AM
no as it wasn't just a thought - you were directly questioning support for the team and wondering if we hate the team so much why we're here....

It was merely a thought provoking question. As you could problably tell, I'm trying to stir emotions by some of the questions I ask. I'm not being dumb, althought it might come across that way! Sometimes a lot of the forum is taken up by people stating the same view with little backup or evidence, so I try and ask the right questions to get a proper answer.

Just right now, even though TFC are playing well, many people aren't happy at all. So it needs to be asked - why are people still here when they are so unhappy? Stouff's answer is the best and is exactly what I was looking for :)

greatwhitenorf
07-27-2012, 10:28 AM
What's interesting about stepping away from giving TFC money is that many of us have continued to closely follow soccer played at higher levels abroad. Not attending TFC games won't change that. Happily, MLS is beginning to secure a stronger presence on TSN and Sportsnet so we can still follow this level on mainstream TV. And, of course, catch the six minutes of highlights on the TFC site.

But the only way to seriously impact the serial mis-managment that MLSE has offered these many years - ownership change hasn't changed anything yet - is to withdraw financial support. When the bottom line shrinks, or turns red, then they take notice. That won't ever happen with the Leafs and it hasn't happened with the weaker-supported Raptors because the NBA's TV and merchandising deals basically hand the teams enough money to start the season in the black before they sell seat one or do their own local or regional sales ad broadcast deals.

That isn't the case with MLS or TFC. Until we stop showing up for games and letting them serve shit, they'll keep on doing it. When the broadcast allies that now own the club see that impacting not only their bottom line but the quality of content from TFC games, then there'll be incentive to change. The stadium crowds already look patchy, but there's always creative ways to angle cameras to make it look better than it is. When it gets to the point where they can't provide polish for a pig, then they have a problem to address.

Everyone wants to do the right thing and hang tough and support the team with their wallets and vocal chords and flags and banners. That's not the right thing anymore. This team, this sport, needs some very tough love right now.

DangerRed
07-27-2012, 10:50 AM
Until we stop showing up for games and letting them serve shit, they'll keep on doing it. When the broadcast allies that now own the club see that impacting not only their bottom line but the quality of content from TFC games, then there'll be incentive to change. The stadium crowds already look patchy, but there's always creative ways to angle cameras to make it look better than it is. When it gets to the point where they can't provide polish for a pig, then they have a problem to address.

Everyone wants to do the right thing and hang tough and support the team with their wallets and vocal chords and flags and banners. That's not the right thing anymore. This team, this sport, needs some very tough love right now.

Totally agree. Since last year, even when I had season tickets with my buddies, I haven't bought concessions. This year, I didn't renew, have been to three games and all of our tickets have been bought in the vibrant and highly competitive aftermarket (since you can't GIVE tickets away anymore, they are very easy to secure). Seat wandering is also a breeze, since the stadium is so empty compared to what it used to be. You buy the cheapest available ticket, look for a midfield spot and switch 20 minutes into the first.

How long will it take for me and the others who do the same to hit the MLSE bottom line and show them we're unhappy and voting with our wallets? I don't know. Maybe they'll never see it or don't care. But how they expect to maintain season ticket sales given the current (a Tommy A favorite) "supply and demand" environment is beyond me.

Good luck to all involved. I'll continue to enjoy the odd nearly-free game and hope for a better day when being a season-ticket holder is again a great privilege and not an unjustifiable financial burden.

T-boy
07-27-2012, 10:51 AM
What's interesting about stepping away from giving TFC money is that many of us have continued to closely follow soccer played at higher levels abroad. Not attending TFC games won't change that. Happily, MLS is beginning to secure a stronger presence on TSN and Sportsnet so we can still follow this level on mainstream TV. And, of course, catch the six minutes of highlights on the TFC site.

But the only way to seriously impact the serial mis-managment that MLSE has offered these many years - ownership change hasn't changed anything yet - is to withdraw financial support. When the bottom line shrinks, or turns red, then they take notice. That won't ever happen with the Leafs and it hasn't happened with the weaker-supported Raptors because the NBA's TV and merchandising deals basically hand the teams enough money to start the season in the black before they sell seat one or do their own local or regional sales ad broadcast deals.

That isn't the case with MLS or TFC. Until we stop showing up for games and letting them serve shit, they'll keep on doing it. When the broadcast allies that now own the club see that impacting not only their bottom line but the quality of content from TFC games, then there'll be incentive to change. The stadium crowds already look patchy, but there's always creative ways to angle cameras to make it look better than it is. When it gets to the point where they can't provide polish for a pig, then they have a problem to address.

Everyone wants to do the right thing and hang tough and support the team with their wallets and vocal chords and flags and banners. That's not the right thing anymore. This team, this sport, needs some very tough love right now.

The problem that we (supporters of ANY Toronto pro sports) have is that there are enough people in the area to keep all the sports well attended without us (supporters groups, hardcore supporters etc) being there. The GTA has over 5 million people - thats a MASSIVE base of sports fans. And MLSE has a total monopoly over the area. It's not like in Europe, where we can just go and watch another pro soccer/hockey/basketball team within a half hour drive. In Toronto its just not possible. If you want to go watch live sport, the leafs/raptors/TFC/jays are the ONLY option. And they are ALL owned by the same company! MLSE have our nuts in a vice, and we can do nothing about it as a population!

If all the RPB's gave up their season ticket in the south end - they would all be bought by other people. So, us hardcore supporters not renewing, isn't going to affect MLSE at ALL :(

I don't think its as simple as "hitting them in the wallet". There are enough people who can put money in, when we pull our money collectively out.

Pookie
07-27-2012, 11:23 AM
The other issue with "hitting them in the wallet" is that you have to understand the revenue picture if you want to do it effectively.

MLSE keeps 93% of the revenue for every ticket sold. The rest is shared.

MLSE only keeps 25% of concession revenues for MLS games.

In boycotting concessions, you are impacting them but not anywhere near as much as you could by voting with your ticket.

If you think about $40 spent on a ticket and $20 spent on food. They keep $37.20 of your ticket spend and $5 of your food spend, which totals $42.20

If you boycott the food, the revenue drops by $5 or 11.8% of the total value you represent. By jacking tickets up by $6 to $46 per game, they make back anything they lose on concessions and given food demand is dropping, they also likely lower their supply costs by not ordering/prepping as much.

If you didn't go, they would have $0. Or if you simply buy resold tickets instead of additional from the box office, you keep them out of your pocket.

T-boy
07-27-2012, 11:43 AM
Pookie, so how do we stop other Torontonians buying the tickets we don't use? It's fine me or you not buying tickets -but as long as other people buy them instead, MLSE won't care. As a supporters group, how do we get the MASS of people to boycott? That's the big question.

DangerRed
07-27-2012, 12:03 PM
If you didn't go, they would have $0. Or if you simply buy resold tickets instead of additional from the box office, you keep them out of your pocket.

Quite right. That's why if I go tomorrow, I'll again be going on a resold ticket, which I will very likely able to purchase at below-face value.

T-boy
07-27-2012, 12:10 PM
Quite right. That's why if I go tomorrow, I'll again be going on a resold ticket, which I will very likely able to purchase at below-face value.

But you still are, in effect, indirectly buying a ticket from MLSE. As long as there is a secondary market for a ticket, then people will still buy season tickets for games. It's like saying you are "innocent" if you still willingly buy something that you know is stolen. As long as you buy it, somebody will still steal it!

Until there is NOBODY going to games, and people CANNOT resell their ticket, even for a loss, MLSE won't care. I don't know - that may be next season,but it hasn't happened "yet", as people are STILL buying secondary market tickets.

Pookie
07-27-2012, 12:22 PM
Pookie, so how do we stop other Torontonians buying the tickets we don't use? It's fine me or you not buying tickets -but as long as other people buy them instead, MLSE won't care. As a supporters group, how do we get the MASS of people to boycott? That's the big question.

Well, you may never get a mass boycott.

However, let's say there are 15,000 season ticket renewals next year. If there are 3,000 single game buyers on average for each game, MLSE sells a total of 18,000 tickets per game.

Let's say further that 3,000 season ticket holders stay away due to weather, apathy, time conflicts, etc.

If a group, like the RPBs, decides to promote its at cost ticket exchange to the masses, there is an opportunity to hit MLSE in the wallet. Folks that can't go to a game, could promote them on our market place. If someone buys a resold ticket, the money goes to the season ticket holder not MLSE.

If all 3,000 single game buyers got their tickets through the exchange then there would be no single game buyers. MLSE's revenue would only come from the 15,000 season ticket buyers that bought originally.

In fact, if the average single game ticket costs $50, their per game revenue would decline by 3,000 x $50 = $150,000 (or $139,500 per game with the revenue share).

Over 18 MLS games, that's $2.51M.

A missing $2.51M from MLSE's top line? That gets noticed.

Idealistic goal? Yes.

Possible? Considering how connected we are to the grass roots, absolutely. Just takes the will of the group to do it.

I would just want to see a boycott/alternative ticket buying program tied to a movement like "Anselmi Out" vs "Results" They can always talk about the future and improvement when it comes to results. Anselmi Out is tangible.

T-boy
07-27-2012, 12:30 PM
How many RPB's are there? Versus other SSH? In order to get something going we need as MANY people on board as possible.

v00d00daddy
07-27-2012, 12:32 PM
Well, you may never get a mass boycott.

However, let's say there are 15,000 season ticket renewals next year. If there are 3,000 single game buyers on average for each game, MLSE sells a total of 18,000 tickets per game.

Let's say further that 3,000 season ticket holders stay away due to weather, apathy, time conflicts, etc.

If a group, like the RPBs, decides to promote its at cost ticket exchange to the masses, there is an opportunity to hit MLSE in the wallet. Folks that can't go to a game, could promote them on our market place. If someone buys a resold ticket, the money goes to the season ticket holder not MLSE.

If all 3,000 single game buyers got their tickets through the exchange then there would be no single game buyers. MLSE's revenue would only come from the 15,000 season ticket buyers that bought originally.

In fact, if the average single game ticket costs $50, their per game revenue would decline by 3,000 x $50 = $150,000 (or $139,500 per game with the revenue share).

Over 18 MLS games, that's $2.51M.

A missing $2.51M from MLSE's top line? That gets noticed.

Idealistic goal? Yes.

Possible? Considering how connected we are to the grass roots, absolutely. Just takes the will of the group to do it.

I would just want to see a boycott/alternative ticket buying program tied to a movement like "Anselmi Out" vs "Results" They can always talk about the future and improvement when it comes to results. Anselmi Out is tangible.

Maybe I've missed it in the past but this is the first time I've heard of this idea.

I gotta say...well done!

I like it and would be willing to partake.

Pookie
07-27-2012, 01:15 PM
How many RPB's are there? Versus other SSH? In order to get something going we need as MANY people on board as possible.

Well, what you would need to do is just like basic marketing:

- let people know it is there
- allow them to participate
- promote and repromote

Everyone of us then uses whatever social media we have to drive people here.

Considering going to the game? If so, get your tickets "at or below cost" on the ticket exchange.

T-boy
07-27-2012, 01:20 PM
Well, what you would need to do is just like basic marketing:

- let people know it is there
- allow them to participate
- promote and repromote

Everyone of us then uses whatever social media we have to drive people here.

Considering going to the game? If so, get your tickets "at or below cost" on the ticket exchange.

It's a two way thing that needs doing.

1. You need as many RPB's and SSH as possible to want to "not" go to games and therefore resell the tickets. That's why I'm asking how many RPB's there are.
And then 2. Yes, agreed, the rest is marketing and getting the word out on the street.

Pookie
07-27-2012, 01:35 PM
^ I'm talking about building an exchange were season ticket holders (including non-RPBs) can list them... like they do with the "official exchange"

The difference is that the "official exchange" is only accessible to season ticket holders AND MLSE makes a percentage of the sale.

Here, average joe ticket holder could list his tickets... we'd drive folks away from Ticketmaster and to our exchange.

Just an idea and you'd probably need to create something that is robust (searchable, easy to use, etc) from a user perspective rather than rely on PMs and a bulletin board format.

DangerRed
07-27-2012, 02:10 PM
But you still are, in effect, indirectly buying a ticket from MLSE. As long as there is a secondary market for a ticket, then people will still buy season tickets for games. It's like saying you are "innocent" if you still willingly buy something that you know is stolen. As long as you buy it, somebody will still steal it!

Until there is NOBODY going to games, and people CANNOT resell their ticket, even for a loss, MLSE won't care. I don't know - that may be next season,but it hasn't happened "yet", as people are STILL buying secondary market tickets.

That's a specious argument. If the goal is not to inject any new revenue into MLSE, while at the same time attending the game, then I'm accomplishing that goal (the ticket was already bought by the person selling it to me anyway). What's crucially important to note is that I'm not indirectly helping prop up season ticket sales if the ticket I buy is a resale ticket at below-face value. The person selling me the ticket at a loss will next year very likely not purchase season tickets again, because it's illogical to invest in something that loses money. It's their decision.

If anything, like popularity of TFC tickets, scalper season ticket sales will dwindle when they stop making money on them, and I have first-hand experience they already are. A friend of mine walked up to scalper, handed him $40 and received a $65 (or thereabouts, it was in 120, I think) face-value ticket in return.

That scalper paid $65 for a ticket. My friend paid him $40. The scalper isn't making money, nor is my friend propping up continued season-ticket sales (but, of course, he still gets to go to a game).

ryan
07-27-2012, 03:25 PM
That's a specious argument. If the goal is not to inject any new revenue into MLSE, while at the same time attending the game, then I'm accomplishing that goal (the ticket was already bought by the person selling it to me anyway). What's crucially important to note is that I'm not indirectly helping prop up season ticket sales if the ticket I buy is a resale ticket at below-face value. The person selling me the ticket at a loss will next year very likely not purchase season tickets again, because it's illogical to invest in something that loses money. It's their decision.

If anything, like popularity of TFC tickets, scalper season ticket sales will dwindle when they stop making money on them, and I have first-hand experience they already are. A friend of mine walked up to scalper, handed him $40 and received a $65 (or thereabouts, it was in 120, I think) face-value ticket in return.

That scalper paid $65 for a ticket. My friend paid him $40. The scalper isn't making money, nor is my friend propping up continued season-ticket sales (but, of course, he still gets to go to a game).

FYI, SSH don't pay face value. Would make sense for scalpers to have SSH to maximize the profits or he acquired it second hand, and nobody is selling tickets at or above face value.

nfitz
07-27-2012, 03:47 PM
A friend of mine walked up to scalper, handed him $40 and received a $65 (or thereabouts, it was in 120, I think) face-value ticket in return.

That scalper paid $65 for a ticket. My friend paid him $40. The scalper isn't making money, nor is my friend propping up continued season-ticket sales (but, of course, he still gets to go to a game).A ticket in 120 (medium grey) for a premium game would have a face value of $52 on it. But the scalper could have season tickets, and only pays $34 ($646 this season for the 19-game package). So if he sells it at $40, he's still making a profit. Also, he may have just bought it off someone else for $15 (that's the real place to make $ ... you buy people's extra tickets for near nothing, and then resell at a higher rate, but still below face).

The real cost of a ticket in Supporters is $19 ($361 for 19-game package). But face is $27 for a regular game, and $41 for a premium. You could buy a season package for $361, sell them all at face for $583, and pocket $222 ... and still not be selling above face.

Pookie
07-27-2012, 03:55 PM
A ticket in 120 (medium grey) for a premium game would have a face value of $52 on it. But the scalper could have season tickets, and only pays $34 ($646 this season for the 19-game package). So if he sells it at $40, he's still making a profit. Also, he may have just bought it off someone else for $15 (that's the real place to make $ ... you buy people's extra tickets for near nothing, and then resell at a higher rate, but still below face).

The real cost of a ticket in Supporters is $19 ($361 for 19-game package). But face is $27 for a regular game, and $41 for a premium. You could buy a season package for $361, sell them all at face for $583, and pocket $222 ... and still not be selling above face.

The profitabilty for scalpers is getting too low for this to be a business. Years ago, folks were trying to sell Supporters Season tickets for $1000. That was a significant profit.

If you are now talking about the idea of making $6 per ticket, per game... seriously, there are more shows in town that generate more gross profit without the risk of the tickets going unsold. Just snag a few to Coldplay or Justin Beiber and your year is set.

nfitz
07-27-2012, 04:43 PM
If you are now talking about the idea of making $6 per ticket, per game... seriously....I'm not talking nothing ... I'm merely pointing out that a scalper can profit in more than one way by selling below face.

There are people here who seem to think it's okay to buy from scalpers, if the scalper is not making money (selling below face). That's not how it works, that's all I'm saying.

tiberius
07-28-2012, 12:42 AM
The problem that we (supporters of ANY Toronto pro sports) have is that there are enough people in the area to keep all the sports well attended without us (supporters groups, hardcore supporters etc) being there. The GTA has over 5 million people - thats a MASSIVE base of sports fans. And MLSE has a total monopoly over the area. It's not like in Europe, where we can just go and watch another pro soccer/hockey/basketball team within a half hour drive. In Toronto its just not possible. If you want to go watch live sport, the leafs/raptors/TFC/jays are the ONLY option. And they are ALL owned by the same company! MLSE have our nuts in a vice, and we can do nothing about it as a population!

If all the RPB's gave up their season ticket in the south end - they would all be bought by other people. So, us hardcore supporters not renewing, isn't going to affect MLSE at ALL :(

I don't think its as simple as "hitting them in the wallet". There are enough people who can put money in, when we pull our money collectively out.

^^^ This is utter and total Horse Hockey ^^^

It is as simple as hitting them in the wallet - it is doable, and it will happen. Most of the 1,000 active members left here now know in their heart of hearts that all we really have is a simple cold hard cash transaction with a cold hearted, inept, very poorly structured and run corporation/bureaucracy that clearly knows fuck all about running a soccer club. Either renewals continue and the current circus gong show will be supported and continued as usual, or renewals will stop, and there is some chance that positive change will occur. You may recall that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Can anyone reasonably think that if they renew again this year, that somehow, magically the shitshow pain will stop? Does anybody here actually think that??? (If so, please PM me as I have the deed to the brooklyn bridge I can let you have it for practically nothing. I also know a very generous and pretty Nigerian princess who needs to move some money to Canada - drop me a line, I can hook you up!)

This year is the watershed year - either you are correct t-boy (along with Tommy A and his marketing team) and those season tickets dropped in the fall of 2012 are going to be snapped up by:

- soccer moms + their kids
- valley girls
- desperate guys looking for hot dates with valley girls at TFC games
- the KIA corporation
- flying pigs


OR

Season ticket sales will drop significantly to say the 10-12K mark. That will be a huge drop in club income as almost everyone still hanging on by a thread will also shuffle down their seats to cheaper, more reasonably priced ones.

I don't know where all of these "replacement fans" are, that you are talking about t-boy - I don't see them at the games. Where are they? Should I look under the empty seats at BMO for them? Are they just stuck in traffic? Is it reasonable to expect that these phantoms are going to magically show up next year, or magically renew??

Tommy A. has grossly misread, miscalculated and mismanaged the supply and demand curve. They have screwed the pooch on so many economic fronts that things are irreversible. They:

1. raised prices way too many times and way too much
2. added seats to the stadium at the wrong time
3. submarined their STHolders by fucking the aftermarket (see 1 and 2 above)
4. priced a lot of enthusiastic, die hard fans right out of BMO field
5. alienated their fan base with cut throat priced friendlies, marlie packs etc, etc, etc,..
6. are now competing hard with their season ticketholders for aftermarket sales, travelzoo...
7. have ruined and exhausted a gigantic waiting list
8. have squandered absolutely massive goodwill toward the Toronto FC organization - as you can
tell, there are literally a handful of folk left in a town of 5 million people who think highly (or are even
neutrally) about the organization, 'nuff said...

On top of that, they have negatively affected the game day experience in many ways including:
1. dampened the spirit of supporters, which has affected atmosphere dramatically
2. allowed seats to go empty which again affect atmosphere
3. do we need to talk about the price of beer or even water?
4. rather than having great goodwill giveaways like seat cushions they hand you vaseline instead...
5. provided a shitshow world record revolving door on players that severely affects the bonds that fans
and supporters can build with players/team
6. (everyone can fill in items 6 -50 here)

Please note that I have not mentioned coaches, 4-3-3 / 4-4-2, winning or losing. Winning and pleasant to watch football will enhance the game day experience for sure, but please don't expect me to think that a Man U or Real Madrid dynasty is going to rise from the ashes of this circus and overcome the economic and game day problems this club has inflicted upon us. If they hadn't fucked up the economics and the game day experience, BMO would still be stuffed to the rafters for every game and everyone would still be going home with that 2007-2008 feeling. We didn't need a winning team, a competent coach, DPs or even a semblance of a formation (thinking Marvel Wynne:D) to have a great time.

I will always support and follow the team on the field but the absolute putrid stench eminating from the economic and customer relations garbage pile makes it really hard for me to concentrate on which formation is best, or debate if Mariner can extend his hoof-ball magic until the end of the season. I am a numbed, shell shocked victim of Anselmi, Bierne and Cochrane. The best I can do is get some popcorn and watch the drama unfold in the next two months while trying to find the humour in our current situation.

Richard
07-28-2012, 01:17 AM
^^^ This is utter and total Horse Hockey ^^^

It is as simple as hitting them in the wallet - it is doable, and it will happen. Most of the 1,000 active members left here now know in their heart of hearts that all we really have is a simple cold hard cash transaction with a cold hearted, inept, very poorly structured and run corporation/bureaucracy that clearly knows fuck all about running a soccer club. Either renewals continue and the current circus gong show will be supported and continued as usual, or renewals will stop, and there is some chance that positive change will occur. You may recall that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Can anyone reasonably think that if they renew again this year, that somehow, magically the shitshow pain will stop? Does anybody here actually think that??? (If so, please PM me as I have the deed to the brooklyn bridge I can let you have it for practically nothing. I also know a very generous and pretty Nigerian princess who needs to move some money to Canada - drop me a line, I can hook you up!)

This year is the watershed year - either you are correct t-boy (along with Tommy A and his marketing team) and those season tickets dropped in the fall of 2012 are going to be snapped up by:

- soccer moms + their kids
- valley girls
- desperate guys looking for hot dates with valley girls at TFC games
- the KIA corporation
- flying pigs


OR

Season ticket sales will drop significantly to say the 10-12K mark. That will be a huge drop in club income as almost everyone still hanging on by a thread will also shuffle down their seats to cheaper, more reasonably priced ones.

I don't know where all of these "replacement fans" are, that you are talking about t-boy - I don't see them at the games. Where are they? Should I look under the empty seats at BMO for them? Are they just stuck in traffic? Is it reasonable to expect that these phantoms are going to magically show up next year, or magically renew??

Tommy A. has grossly misread, miscalculated and mismanaged the supply and demand curve. They have screwed the pooch on so many economic fronts that things are irreversible. They:

1. raised prices way too many times and way too much
2. added seats to the stadium at the wrong time
3. submarined their STHolders by fucking the aftermarket (see 1 and 2 above)
4. priced a lot of enthusiastic, die hard fans right out of BMO field
5. alienated their fan base with cut throat priced friendlies, marlie packs etc, etc, etc,..
6. are now competing hard with their season ticketholders for aftermarket sales, travelzoo...
7. have ruined and exhausted a gigantic waiting list
8. have squandered absolutely massive goodwill toward the Toronto FC organization - as you can
tell, there are literally a handful of folk left in a town of 5 million people who think highly (or are even
neutrally) about the organization, 'nuff said...

On top of that, they have negatively affected the game day experience in many ways including:
1. dampened the spirit of supporters, which has affected atmosphere dramatically
2. allowed seats to go empty which again affect atmosphere
3. do we need to talk about the price of beer or even water?
4. rather than having great goodwill giveaways like seat cushions they hand you vaseline instead...
5. provided a shitshow world record revolving door on players that severely affects the bonds that fans
and supporters can build with players/team
6. (everyone can fill in items 6 -50 here)

Please note that I have not mentioned coaches, 4-3-3 / 4-4-2, winning or losing. Winning and pleasant to watch football will enhance the game day experience for sure, but please don't expect me to think that a Man U or Real Madrid dynasty is going to rise from the ashes of this circus and overcome the economic and game day problems this club has inflicted upon us. If they hadn't fucked up the economics and the game day experience, BMO would still be stuffed to the rafters for every game and everyone would still be going home with that 2007-2008 feeling. We didn't need a winning team, a competent coach, DPs or even a semblance of a formation (thinking Marvel Wynne:D) to have a great time.

I will always support and follow the team on the field but the absolute putrid stench eminating from the economic and customer relations garbage pile makes it really hard for me to concentrate on which formation is best, or debate if Mariner can extend his hoof-ball magic until the end of the season. I am a numbed, shell shocked victim of Anselmi, Bierne and Cochrane. The best I can do is get some popcorn and watch the drama unfold in the next two months while trying to find the humour in our current situation.

I love your posts! We seriously need a post of the year or decade thread because this one right here takes the cakes.

bigredone
07-28-2012, 02:36 PM
I am not a SSH, but if Christine Sinclair got a sex change and signed with TFC I would become one:canada:

tiberius
07-28-2012, 03:11 PM
I am not a SSH, but if Christine Sinclair got a sex change and signed with TFC I would become one:canada:

Hey - signing Sinclair is a great idea! Forgive me, perhaps this question is a little too personal, but why would you prefer she have a sex change? g:D