PRE/IN/POST GAME_TFC vs NYRB,Saturday,June 30. 7PM

[denime]

Two in a row for the first time this year,or even two years I don't remember anymore :facepalm:

NIGHT GAME ALWAYS GREAT ATMOSPHERE,BRING IT ON NRYBareshiiiite


3-2 TFC

[maxpower]

It would be great to have Nesta signed and ready to play for this game. We would have the Italians out in full force the night before the final.

2-1 TFC.hopefully.

[pawlukj]

i Want us to win just as bad as the next guy, at the moment im pessimistic because nyrb sit tied in first.. but we are at home and have been playing some goal scoring soccer lately.. its really up in the air..

[ryan]

Supposed to feel like 40 during the day with the humidex, gonna be a fantastic night since BMO is always 10 degrees colder than what's reported.


I hate all things sports in New York. Must destroy them.

[Derko]

Fuck the Dead Bulls and that fucking Henri, He touch so I plead to de referee, i must be fouled Eh, you give de free kick or de penality shot because I am great, no!! Then I fart in you general direction you Henglish Pig Dog:scarf:

[mastermixer]

Is Henry playing?? I remember hearing he was injured the past few weeks.

[Oldtimer]

Big difference between NY and Montreal, plus NY often has our number.

A tie, at best.

Still should be a nice evening out, no rain, and a warm temperature of 27 degrees, not too windy.

[ManUtd4ever]

I think a little squad rotation is in order, considering the recent fixture congestion...


----------------Kocic----------------


Eckersley--Henry--Aceval--Morgan

----------------Frings----------------

Soolsma-----------------DeGuzman

-----------------Avila----------------


------Johnson-------Koevermans---


Subs: Dunfield, Silva, Plata, Lambe, Hall, Emory, Williams

[DoubleUp]

Big difference between NY and Montreal, plus NY often has our number.

A tie, at best.

Still should be a nice evening out, no rain, and a warm temperature of 27 degrees, not too windy.

we really need to stop being pessimistic in a parity league.

Not picking on you OT, but its a common theme around here.

[Oldtimer]

we really need to stop being pessimistic in a parity league.

Not picking on you OT, but its a common theme around here.

After 6 years of abject failure, despite being in a parity league, I don't think you should call out anyone for being mildly pessimistic. The amazing thing is that there are so many of us still around, caring and watching this team. In most places that wouldn't happen.

[Joe Kool]

I still think anything can happen. They are going to be fairly overconfident. Dane Richards thinks we only have had two ties this year and lost the rest of our games so they don't even have their facts straight. The NYRB may be undefeated at home but they lost 4 away so they are not invincible. TFC need to take it to them right away at the start of the game.

[DoubleUp]

After 6 years of abject failure, despite being in a parity league, I don't think you should call out anyone for being mildly pessimistic. The amazing thing is that there are so many of us still around, caring and watching this team. In most places that wouldn't happen.

yes! but really based on results from all MlS teams this season, on any given day any team can win. This league thrives off team spirit and motivation, the football comes secondary. The team that feels more like a winner usually scores before the other team realises whats going on.

Maintaining motivation=Winning!, especially in this league.


We can beat anybody if we believe we can......The league makes sure of it.g:D


The past is the past leave it there.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Larson tweeted he expects the same starting 11 as in Montreal.

Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN)
Projected 11 for #TFC (https://twitter.com/search/%23TFC): Kocic, Morgan, Emory, Eckersley, Hall, Dunfield, JDG, Frings, Avila, Johnson, Koevermans


I am a little concerned about this. Toronto looked much better on Wednesday when they introduced Soolsma to the midfield and moved Eckersley back to RB. Look at the stats of Soolsma compared to Dunfield.

Soolsma - 45 minutes played, 11 passes complete, 2 unsuccessful, pass rate of 85%

Dunfield - 90 minutes played, 11 passes complete, 5 unsuccessful, pass rate of 69%

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-06-27-mtl-v-tor/chalkboard

[Canary10]

Does anyone know who was playing which points in the midfield triangle after the subs on Wednesday? I couldn't tell from the cameras, and the announcers did a bad job of telling us what adjustments were made after the subs.

[Pookie]

Larson tweeted he expects the same starting 11 as in Montreal.

Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN (https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN)
Projected 11 for #TFC (https://twitter.com/search/%23TFC): Kocic, Morgan, Emory, Eckersley, Hall, Dunfield, JDG, Frings, Avila, Johnson, Koevermans


I am a little concerned about this. Toronto looked much better on Wednesday when they introduced Soolsma to the midfield and moved Eckersley back to RB. Look at the stats of Soolsma compared to Dunfield.

Soolsma - 45 minutes played, 11 passes complete, 2 unsuccessful, pass rate of 85%

Dunfield - 90 minutes played, 11 passes complete, 5 unsuccessful, pass rate of 69%

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-06-27-mtl-v-tor/chalkboard

Agreed. I'm concerned about the general stats thus far under Mariner. Every game is about a mid-30% possession rate. They are completing on 60ish% of passes. They are getting outshot every game.

Sometimes the final result doesn't reflect that but common sense says that if you give the other team more opportunities with the ball, let them control the play and tend to give it away on 4 of every 10 passes, the odds are against you over the long term. Particularly against better teams like SKC and what we saw in Houston.

That said, a victory would be terrific.

[moralis]

Good news for TFC as Red Bull centre backs Rafa Marquez, Markus Holgersson (out) and Wilman Conde (doubtful) versus TFC:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/06/29/rbny-notebook-marquez-out-vs-tfc-conde-travels

[Greatest Ripoff]

Good news for TFC as Red Bull centre backs Rafa Marquez, Markus Holgersson (out) and Wilman Conde (doubtful) versus TFC:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/06/29/rbny-notebook-marquez-out-vs-tfc-conde-travels

Another articles from today has Henry as 'Probable'.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/06/29/preview-tfc-rbny-set-clash-after-massive-rivalry-wins

[Auzzy]

Agreed. I'm concerned about the general stats thus far under Mariner. Every game is about a mid-30% possession rate. They are completing on 60ish% of passes. They are getting outshot every game.

Sometimes the final result doesn't reflect that but common sense says that if you give the other team more opportunities with the ball, let them control the play and tend to give it away on 4 of every 10 passes, the odds are against you over the long term. Particularly against better teams like SKC and what we saw in Houston.

That said, a victory would be terrific.

^ +3! I'm also concerned about these stats. Someone will be sure to say: "possession % and passing accuracy aren't so important, as long as TFC is scoring goals & drawing or winning games." To that I would say: yes occasionally you can get away with low possession and with low pass completion rates. However, it's very risky. First of all, you should really have a stud defense if you're OK with the other team having the ball so much more -- and nobody ever accused TFC of having a stud defense. Secondly, you're really depending on the opposing team doing a poor job of creating & finishing goal-scoring chances -- as was the case for Montreal. (That's not going to happen consistently, especially when playing the better teams in the league.) Finally, you're depending on your strikers being hot & scoring lots of goals on a small number of chances -- again unlikely to happen consistently.


I just checked a few game stats for a few other teams. (Unfortunately, the team stats on the MLS website don't have these details, so I just checked the last 5-10 games for each team.) Generally, the best teams in MLS have a possession % close to or above 50%, and they tend to have pass completion rates of 75% to 85%.


In the 4 games under Mariner, these are the pass accuracy rates: 60%; 60%; 65%; 64%
And these are the possession % under Mariner: 39.7%; 36.7%; 36.5%; 36.4%


Hopefully those numbers improve or TFC will continue to live dangerously. That's why it's important to play guys like Soolsma. And again, this isn't a defense of Aron Winter: I thought the pass accuracy and possession % were too low under Winter, especially for the type of game he theoretically wanted to play. That wasn't good enough. Those stats specifically have gotten worse under Mariner.

I think Saturday is a complete crapshoot, we shall see how it goes. NY haven't been too hot lately, and are only .500 away from home this season (despite being close to the top in the Eastern standings). Hopefully DK and RJ can bag a couple, and the team can hold on for a result.

[iy12l]

Dunfield is giving me a headache... We usually have 30% ball possesion because duncefiled keeps hoofing the ball to nowhere.Seriously, Mariner needs to play Soolsma or Lambe on the right midfield or else we're going to see some hoofball like the game against New England.

[Abou Sky]

I am actually excited about a game!

My $.02, 2-1 for TFC!!!

Danny for one and Henry with a header off a corner.

[Abou Sky]

Agreed. I'm concerned about the general stats thus far under Mariner. Every game is about a mid-30% possession rate. They are completing on 60ish% of passes. They are getting outshot every game.

Sometimes the final result doesn't reflect that but common sense says that if you give the other team more opportunities with the ball, let them control the play and tend to give it away on 4 of every 10 passes, the odds are against you over the long term. Particularly against better teams like SKC and what we saw in Houston.

That said, a victory would be terrific.

We were losing with 60% possession and tying/winning with 40%

Only stat that matters is the score at the end of the game!

Yay, weekend of football!

[Auzzy]

^ We almost never had 60% possession.

Read my post, and compare TFC to other teams in the league. It's not very likely that we will get consistent results with possession of 36% to 39%.

[ensco]

Heath Pearce loves Toronto



http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/2352909796/image_normal.jpgHeath Pearce (@HeathGPearce (https://twitter.com/HeathGPearce))
2012-06-29 2:37 PM (https://twitter.com/heathgpearce/status/218775237175689218)
Off to Toronto for a weekend of soccerrr. Game tomorrow night vs. toronto FC. Love the city of TO

[Gazza]

Love you too Heath! Who's Heath Pearce?

[Shakes McQueen]

Love you too Heath! Who's Heath Pearce?

Plays for the New Jersey Energy Drinks

- Scott

[Suds]

Heath Pearce loves Toronto



http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/2352909796/image_normal.jpgHeath Pearce (@HeathGPearce (https://twitter.com/HeathGPearce))
2012-06-29 2:37 PM (https://twitter.com/heathgpearce/status/218775237175689218)
Off to Toronto for a weekend of soccerrr. Game tomorrow night vs. toronto FC. Love the city of TO




For Your Eyes Only - It's why most athletes love TO. :yesnod:

[Beach_Red]

^ +3! I'm also concerned about these stats. Someone will be sure to say: "possession % and passing accuracy aren't so important, as long as TFC is scoring goals & drawing or winning games." To that I would say: yes occasionally you can get away with low possession and with low pass completion rates. However, it's very risky. First of all, you should really have a stud defense if you're OK with the other team having the ball so much more -- and nobody ever accused TFC of having a stud defense. Secondly, you're really depending on the opposing team doing a poor job of creating & finishing goal-scoring chances -- as was the case for Montreal. (That's not going to happen consistently, especially when playing the better teams in the league.) Finally, you're depending on your strikers being hot & scoring lots of goals on a small number of chances -- again unlikely to happen consistently.



Well, TFC is digging itself out of a hole, so right now there isn't much point in comparing us to the best teams in the league. And for the bottom half of the league, yes, you can consider that they will do a poor job of creating and finishing. That's what other teams were counting on from TFC and it led to 9 straight losses in the league.

It might be interesting to see if any of these stats are affected by the scoreline. For the first 9 games didn't TFC have the lead for something like 5 minutes?

What we need to see is if TFC is headed towards the top half of the league or not. Right now it's too soon to tell.

[ryan]

For Your Eyes Only - It's why most athletes love TO. :yesnod:

Oh my bachelor party....

I'll never forget that afternoon.

[Pookie]

We were losing with 60% possession and tying/winning with 40%

Only stat that matters is the score at the end of the game!

Yay, weekend of football!

Possession under Winter was about 47%. (on average)

You are right, the score is the most important stat.

However, over time, those stats will spell out a set of conditions that are not condusive to winning and ulimately contending for a Cup. If you give up more shots, have the ball less and give it up quite a bit, that is going to bite you in the ass over the long run.

Not saying at all that Mariner can't improve them though I am concerned that each of the 4 games thus far as resulted in a very similar storyline as far as the stats go.

We have not outshot a single team. We beat MTL. But so did Winter's squad (1-1-1 against Impact). We tied a 14th place NE club and gave up 3 to Houston. We lost to a better side in SKC by 2 and it could have been 6 if they could have finished.

This weekend is going to be a difficult game and I am crossing everything that I've got that our Reds can pull it off.

[Greatest Ripoff]

We were losing with 60% possession and tying/winning with 40%

Only stat that matters is the score at the end of the game!

Yay, weekend of football!

Yes the score is the most important part of the game. Looked what happened to the score in the second half against Montreal when Soolsma was introduced and Eckersley was moved back to his natural position. I was using stats to back up my assertion that Soolsma made more of a positive contribution than Dunfield did playing the entire 90. I think it shows that Soolsma deserves a start ahead of Dunfield.

Now keeping the score in mind, what happened in the two previous games when Dunfield was left in the midfield with Lambe and Silva? The team booted the ball pass the midfielders or the midfielder easily gave up possession and the team gave away a two goal lead.

Three games isn't enough to judge things on but I don't like the trend that is forming.

[ManUtd4ever]

The scoreline is the most important statistic. I would bet that there are anomalies to be found when correlating the average possession ratio and overall record of clubs throughout the league.

At the moment, TFC is 1-1-2 with a goal differential of +1 after 4 games under the tutelage of Paul Mariner. Any way you slice it, that's a tangible improvement.

[Greatest Ripoff]

The scoreline is the most important statistic. I would bet that there are anomalies to be found when correlating the average possession ratio and overall record of clubs throughout the league.

At the moment, TFC is 1-1-2 with a goal differential of +1 after 4 games under the tutelage of Paul Mariner. Any way you slice it, that's a tangible improvement.


Yes 1-2-1 is an improvement but not enough to be a good team in this league. Now if the team was 3-0-1 as it very well could have been if they hadn't conceded possession or cheaply given the ball away in the second half in two games, they would look like a team that could really compete in this league. It's all about how the team makes changes going forward and corrects the mistakes being made.

[tfc2008]

Another articles from today has Henry as 'Probable'.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/06/29/preview-tfc-rbny-set-clash-after-massive-rivalry-wins





Henry is a starter tommorow

[mowe]

There's a game today!
#TorontoFC (https://twitter.com/#%21/search/%23TorontoFC) XI: Kocic; Hall, Eckersley, Emory, Morgan; Lambe, Frings, Dunfield, Avila; Koevermans, Johnson.
#TorontoFC (https://twitter.com/#%21/search/%23TorontoFC) substitutes: Roberts; Aceval, Maund, Stinson, Silva, de Guzman, Soolsma

#RBNY (https://twitter.com/#%21/search/%23RBNY) Starting XI vs. #TFC (https://twitter.com/#%21/search/%23TFC): Meara, Barklage, Conde, Pearce, Lade, Richards, McCarty, Lindpere, Solli, Cooper, Henry

[OgtheDim]

JDG on bench along with the Houston 3. Well it is nice to have continuity but how long before these guys run out of gas?

[mowe]

Hall loses his man, 1-0 NY

[mowe]

KOEVERMANS HEADS IN A CORNER. 1-1!

What a quick response!

[OgtheDim]

Oookkkkkkkkkk

[OgtheDim]

Now how come Dunlevy didn't welcome all the fans watching on Al Jazeera?

[Huyton]

Dichio can be heard quite nicely...well done!

[[NBF]]

Who scored for NYRB and how?

[[NBF]]

Wow, Dunfield no respect for Henry. Two-footed tackle.

[justin]

I know most people are at the match but does anyone have any streams? The one I found is so choppy...

[OgtheDim]

http://www.thefirstrow.eu/watch/128767/4/watch-toronto-fc-vs-new-york-red-bulls.html

Choice of 10

[ag futbol]

It wasn't beautiful by any stretch but we're sticking around.

[Gazza]

;1505997']Wow, Dunfield no respect for Henry. Two-footed tackle.

Play of the half for me. It was nice to see that after Henry knew he got the call he could stop writhing around in pain like his foot was shot off.

[iy12l]

Ecks needs to stop hoofing

[OgtheDim]

Dunfield you putz

[J-Man]

What happened to plata? Is he still on the team?

[Ajax TFC]

Why the hell didn't johnson shoot that?

[TFC USA]

1-1 final.

Improvement. And that's not sarcasm.

We're still terrible but we're a little less terrible.

[jloome]

Meh. Both teams were shit. We were marginally less shit. Not fun to watch.

[Gazza]

The team is playing very well and keeping their shape. Not sure why you would take off Koevermans when we need a goal. Even if he's gassed he's still our most dangerous option on set pieces.

[Oldtimer]

My own thoughts.

For a night game, it was really hot.
Koevs was really good to watch, till he was subbed off.

JDG had a really good game once he was subbed on, and started making a difference immediately.
The team kept fighting almost to the end, and was pushing for the win. Finally, in the last 2 minutes, they were too tanked to do more.

[ManUtd4ever]

A good result against a top MLS club.

It definitely seemed as though both teams were feeling the ill effects of the recent condensed schedule, especially in the second half.

[Detroit_TFC]

We paced the top team in the conference. Koevermans scored. Nobody got injured. To me that is a good game day.

[Yohan]

7 goals in 7 games. Koevermans is the machine

[Dv23]

I got to the stadium at 6:45 and didn't get to my seats until 7:15. One lot full, so we're forced to go to the other, but one of the two streets to get there is closed off, so I have to take the congested one, where pedestrians getting off the trains by the hundreds refuse to walk around cars and instead walk in front of them, forcing traffic to a stand-still. And the FO decides not to delay the game start, so I miss both goals. God, I hate this.

All my ill-will towards the stadium location planning aside, we played well today, considering how many games we've had in the last 10 or so days.

[brad]

The hip hop dance crew right before the match was god awful. One step away from cheerleaders.

[jabbronies]

Happy with the tie. Happy Koevs got a goal. Happy the Anselmi Out banner was up
Ecks was livid with Frings at one point in the first half on the defensive end. Anyone catch why?

[Shakes McQueen]

Considering how gassed the team was from all of the games we've played recently, I thought we acquitted ourselves well. 1-1 draw against a good team - not terrible.

And another game without a loss, too. Has it been good fortune, or are these guys responding to Mariner's stewardship of the team?

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Also - gotta love the Koov. Goal scoring machine.

- Scott

[Pookie]

Happy with the tie. Happy Koevs got a goal. Happy the Anselmi Out banner was up
Ecks was livid with Frings at one point in the first half on the defensive end. Anyone catch why?

TF didn't push up and kept NYRB player onside resulting in great chance.

[Yohan]

I didnt like avila playing cm and lambe playing am. Id have liked soolsma instead of lambe who looked lost unless playing right winger.

Dunno why johnson playing right forward instead of left but looked less effective.

I hage a feeling dunfield is gling to get suspended for that tackle on henry. He had a good game.

[OgtheDim]

... Has it been good fortune, or are these guys responding to Mariner's stewardship of the team?

- Scott


Bit of both.

Mind you, NYRB didn't really change their tactics to adjust to Toronto. That's where Mariner is lacking (that and his subs are random and seem to be based on a committee of coaches)

[ryan]

I got to the stadium at 6:45 and didn't get to my seats until 7:15. One lot full, so we're forced to go to the other, but one of the two streets to get there is closed off, so I have to take the congested one, where pedestrians getting off the trains by the hundreds refuse to walk around cars and instead walk in front of them, forcing traffic to a stand-still. And the FO decides not to delay the game start, so I miss both goals. God, I hate this.

All my ill-will towards the stadium location planning aside, we played well today, considering how many games we've had in the last 10 or so days.

Here's a tip, many of those people aren't getting off the GO train/TTC, they park at the very cheap and accessible parking lots just on the other side of the tracks which avoids all of what you had to deal with tonight.

[Gazza]

Happy with the tie. Happy Koevs got a goal. Happy the Anselmi Out banner was up
Ecks was livid with Frings at one point in the first half on the defensive end. Anyone catch why?

The D was trying to hold the line but Frings held his man onside which resulted in a good scoring chance for NY. Still don't like a reaction like that from ginger bollocks.

[boban]

Considering how gassed the team was from all of the games we've played recently, I thought we acquitted ourselves well. 1-1 draw against a good team - not terrible.

And another game without a loss, too. Has it been good fortune, or are these guys responding to Mariner's stewardship of the team?

- Scott

Pretty obvious its less bout Mariner and more about the ball just ending in the net by Johnson and mainly Koevermans.
We actually turned the corner with Winter at the head, and Mariner is reaping the rewards.
Such is life.

[denime]

Pretty obvious its less bout Mariner and more about the ball just ending in the net by Johnson and mainly Koevermans.
We actually turned the corner with Winter at the head, and Mariner is reaping the rewards.
Such is life.

agree 100%

[Cashcleaner]

Considering how gassed the team was from all of the games we've played recently, I thought we acquitted ourselves well. 1-1 draw against a good team - not terrible.

And another game without a loss, too. Has it been good fortune, or are these guys responding to Mariner's stewardship of the team?

- Scott

I'm rather happy with the result. Obviously a win at home is preferred, but there's no shame in a hard-fought draw against the conference leaders. I agree that we've seen both teams play better, but given the heat and humidity, a little sluggishness was expected.

The point is, it's not good fortune, it's good football and Mariner deserves credit for his part in our last few results. I agree that we've seen both teams play better, but given the heat and humidity, a little sluggishness was expected.

[Shakes McQueen]

Pretty obvious its less bout Mariner and more about the ball just ending in the net by Johnson and mainly Koevermans.
We actually turned the corner with Winter at the head, and Mariner is reaping the rewards.
Such is life.

Why is this "pretty obvious", after we heard all about how Mariner was completely altering the team's system (from the players themselves, no less)?

I'm also confused as to where the evidence was that we turned a corner under Winter, aside from our one win against a team with almost an equally poor record.

Just seems like an awfully charitable assessment of Winter's partial-season with the club.

- Scott

[TOBOR !]

Pretty obvious its less bout Mariner and more about the ball just ending in the net by Johnson and mainly Koevermans.
We actually turned the corner with Winter at the head, and Mariner is reaping the rewards.
Such is life.

X 2, I mean 3.

[TFC USA]

We didn't turn the corner at all. This is our second point against a quality side under the Mariner era.

Or have our standards dropped so low that getting draws and close losses is now the millionth time the team has "turned the corner"?

[ManUtd4ever]

Just out of curiosity, did Winter ever manage to go undefeated in 4 straight games in MLS during the 44 games that he managed?

Whatever the answer is, Mariner has accomplished it in his first 5 games.

As for Koevermans and Johnson coincidentally finding the net lately, could it possibly be that Mariner has put them both in a position to succeed by pairing them up front in a two striker formation?

Nah, that couldn't be it. Even though Mariner has adjusted the formation, simplified the tactical approach, and led the team to a positive goal differential over the last five games, he is obviously just the beneficiary of the exemplary job that Winter did managing the squad earlier this season.

[Shakes McQueen]

We didn't turn the corner at all. This is our second point against a quality side under the Mariner era.

Or have our standards dropped so low that getting draws and close losses is now the millionth time the team has "turned the corner"?

We went from getting one point out of ten games under Winter, to getting at least a point in all but one game under Mariner so far. "Turning the corner" doesn't necessarily mean "have become awesome" - but based on the admitedly small sample size so far, that's a pretty huge difference in the results column.

- Scott

[boban]

Just out of curiosity, did Winter ever manage to go undefeated in 4 straight games in MLS during the 44 games that he managed?

Whatever the answer is, Mariner has accomplished it in his first 5 games.

As for Koevermans and Johnson coincidentally finding the net lately, could it possibly be that Mariner has put them both in a position to succeed by pairing them up front in a two striker formation?

Nah, that couldn't be it. Even though Mariner has adjusted the formation, simplified the tactical approach, and led the team to a positive goal differential over the last five games, he is obviously just the beneficiary of the exemplary job that Winter did managing the squad earlier this season.

Let's look at today's example. Koevermans scores off a corner kick.
What system does that fall under? 4-3-3, 4-2-2, -5-1, 4-2-3-1?? Is it hoof ball? Is it defensive like Preki? Or possession like Winter?
Answer: NONE OF THE ABOVE.
It's the fucken ball going into the net and Koevermans bounce going in. There is no system in this.
The guy was out of shape, and had some nagging injuries. Now he is in form and the balls are going in. The MLSE board couldn't wait it out and fired Winter. That's it!!
Nothing here to over analyze.
Put it another way, you really think we would go all season with only 3 wins?!!

[jloome]

Let's look at today's example. Koevermans scores off a corner kick.
What system does that fall under? 4-3-3, 4-2-2, -5-1, 4-2-3-1?? Is it hoof ball? Is it defensive like Preki? Or possession like Winter?
Answer: NONE OF THE ABOVE.
It's the fucken ball going into the net and Koevermans bounce going in. There is no system in this.
The guy was out of shape, and had some nagging injuries. Now he is in form and the balls are going in. The MLSE board couldn't wait it out and fired Winter. That's it!!
Nothing here to over analyze.
Put it another way, you really think we would go all season with only 3 wins?!!


Yeah, I'm just gonna say I disagree. He is playing a system, he's made significant changes to how the team plays, and like it or not it's getting better results in terms of points. Plus, people do train on corners; and by the player interviews before the game, working on set pieces is where he's been concentrating recently.

So yeah, there's a lot to support that it's Mariner. That and the fact that every player seems to be quoted as overwhelmingly positive about the guy. They were politely respectful about winter. They're ENTHUSIASTIC about Mariner.

I didn't like the way Winter was treated either, but so far the results seem to speak for themselves. He might have been a fine technical coach, but until the last three games he wasn't even working at field level. There's no doubting about whether the current guy is having an impact.

Doesn't mean he'll succeed but I think it's ignoring some fairly large signs to suggest otherwise.

[boban]

Yeah, I'm just gonna say I disagree. He is playing a system, he's made significant changes to how the team plays, and like it or not it's getting better results in terms of points. Plus, people do train on corners; and by the player interviews before the game, working on set pieces is where he's been concentrating recently.

So yeah, there's a lot to support that it's Mariner. That and the fact that every player seems to be quoted as overwhelmingly positive about the guy. They were politely respectful about winter. They're ENTHUSIASTIC about Mariner.

I didn't like the way Winter was treated either, but so far the results seem to speak for themselves. He might have been a fine technical coach, but until the last three games he wasn't even working at field level. There's no doubting about whether the current guy is having an impact.

Doesn't mean he'll succeed but I think it's ignoring some fairly large signs to suggest otherwise.

same thing was said about Winter when he started. What else do you expect them to say about the new guy in charge.

[maxpower]

Let's look at today's example. Koevermans scores off a corner kick.
What system does that fall under? 4-3-3, 4-2-2, -5-1, 4-2-3-1?? Is it hoof ball? Is it defensive like Preki? Or possession like Winter?
Answer: NONE OF THE ABOVE.
It's the fucken ball going into the net and Koevermans bounce going in. There is no system in this.
The guy was out of shape, and had some nagging injuries. Now he is in form and the balls are going in. The MLSE board couldn't wait it out and fired Winter. That's it!!
Nothing here to over analyze.
Put it another way, you really think we would go all season with only 3 wins?!!

The goal aside, how many do you think we would have conceded against a pretty damn good New York team if Winter was still here? Because that team leaked goals and never looked as confident as they did today under Winter ( with a pairing we have never used at CB).

Bottom line: the football is worse. But, we are a better team.

[Shakes McQueen]

Yeah, I'm just gonna say I disagree. He is playing a system, he's made significant changes to how the team plays, and like it or not it's getting better results in terms of points. Plus, people do train on corners; and by the player interviews before the game, working on set pieces is where he's been concentrating recently.

So yeah, there's a lot to support that it's Mariner. That and the fact that every player seems to be quoted as overwhelmingly positive about the guy. They were politely respectful about winter. They're ENTHUSIASTIC about Mariner.

I didn't like the way Winter was treated either, but so far the results seem to speak for themselves. He might have been a fine technical coach, but until the last three games he wasn't even working at field level. There's no doubting about whether the current guy is having an impact.

Doesn't mean he'll succeed but I think it's ignoring some fairly large signs to suggest otherwise.

Seconded.

I still have no idea if Mariner is the right coach for our team in a longer-term view, and as others have pointed out - his tactical changes and substitutions during games have been a bit headscratching at times. But I don't think you can deny that he made changes, and those changes are bringing an almost immediate improvement in results.

- Scott

[boban]

The goal aside, how many do you think we would have conceded against a pretty damn good New York team if Winter was still here? Because that team leaked goals and never looked as confident as they did today under Winter ( with a pairing we have never used at CB).

Bottom line: the football is worse. But, we are a better team.

MAriner is leaking goals too. We blew 2 second half 2 goal leads the past 2 weeks.
The last 2 games is not evidence of a problem solved. Also, in Montreal we beat a below average team having a bad day.
The quality of that game left something to be desired. So don't put too much into that game from the stand point of some transforming win or anything.

[narduch]

Considering how gassed the team was from all of the games we've played recently

Its too bad they won't be getting much relief, with 5 games in the next 2.5 weeks.

[azorean19]

Seconded.

I still have no idea if Mariner is the right coach for our team in a longer-term view, and as others have pointed out - his tactical changes and substitutions during games have been a bit headscratching at times. But I don't think you can deny that he made changes, and those changes are bringing an almost immediate improvement in results.

- Scott

I agree, we've seen some improvement........BUT it's going to take a while yet before I refuse to believe it's just due to luck or circumstance. I don't think Mariner is the long term solution....

[Huyton]

Just out of curiosity, did Winter ever manage to go undefeated in 4 straight games in MLS during the 44 games that he managed?

Whatever the answer is, Mariner has accomplished it in his first 5 games.


Yes. Winter managed it in his first 5 games:
Lost 4-2 in Vancouver
Won 2-0 in Toronto against Portland
Tied Chivas 1-1 in Toronto
Tied San Jose 1-1 in California
Tied LA Galaxy 0-0 in Toronto

Winters MLS Record (44 games):
2011: LWTT TLTL WLTT LTTT LLWL LLLT TWLT WWLT TT
2012: LLLL LLLL LW

Longest Winning streak: 2 games (once)
Longest unbeaten streak: 4 games (once)
Longest losing streak: 9 games
Longest streak without a win: 12 games

Mariners MLS Record:
2012: LTTW T

[glaze]

as fans we wanted goals, and we wanted results. today's atmosphere in the stadium was second this season only to the galaxy game. It was great to see the energy back at BMO.
I agree with all that we should be sceptical, however, since Mariner took over, we've scored more goals, and we haven't lost. I think the only thing we can complain about is the inevitable raise in seat prices as a result.

[khso11]

I was with my friends at 113 today, we were trying our best to keep the atmosphere going, it's great to see more and more ppl joining after a few lines, keep the chants going 113!!!!! Let's bring the 2007 atmosphere back!!!!

[Pookie]

Happy they got a result. Also happy to see that this was the first game in 5 that they actually outshot an opponent (10-7). Possession was better, though not overpowering at 43%.

If I am being honest, I'm sending the NYRB midfield a thank you card for not pushing forward very often on the attack. They looked uninterested for most of the night. Either or, it is a point and my mantra has been win or draw now, there is no lose. To that end, it was a decent night.

As an aside, we couldn't make the game so caught it on TV. One person who seemed less than "enthusiastic" about Mariner at one point in the game was Koevermans who vocally expressed displeasure and was really trying to avoid him after being subbed.

[Derko]

The scoreline is the most important statistic. I would bet that there are anomalies to be found when correlating the average possession ratio and overall record of clubs throughout the league.

At the moment, TFC is 1-1-2 with a goal differential of +1 after 4 games under the tutelage of Paul Mariner. Any way you slice it, that's a tangible improvement.

I know that possesion ratio is important, but what I don't as beautiful football is stringing together 1000 passes in a match and not scoring a goal, you have to attack the ball attack the opponet and strike the ball at the net in order to win matches. I couldn't care less if TFC starts winning 3-2 most of the time and lose a few 3-2, makes for exciting football in my mind.

I am impressed that Mariner seems, and the big word right now, is seeme to have the players enjoying playing football, just my thoughts.

Fair result considering the last place team was playing the first place team in the east. Keep it up TFC

[Greatest Ripoff]

The hip hop dance crew right before the match was god awful. One step away from cheerleaders.

Someone should loose their job over that.

[sidvan]

Someone should loose their job over that. please tweet bomb @paulbeirne with your opinions.

[brad]

We didn't turn the corner at all. This is our second point against a quality side under the Mariner era.

Or have our standards dropped so low that getting draws and close losses is now the millionth time the team has "turned the corner"?

There are degrees of turnaround - Certainly something between being worst and first.

Still think its too early to tell if this is a turnaround though. Takes more than a handful of games to say for sure.

We are still relying far to heavily on our one DP - Koevs which is the same as it was under Winter.

[Abou Sky]

I dont know why anyone would say we didn't play well, I thought we played very well and overall better than NY, it was a bit dull at times but well done. JDG was awesome, so was DK.

It was a good result vs a top team.

[Pookie]

Just out of curiosity, did Winter ever manage to go undefeated in 4 straight games in MLS during the 44 games that he managed?

Whatever the answer is, Mariner has accomplished it in his first 5 games.

As for Koevermans and Johnson coincidentally finding the net lately, could it possibly be that Mariner has put them both in a position to succeed by pairing them up front in a two striker formation?

Nah, that couldn't be it. Even though Mariner has adjusted the formation, simplified the tactical approach, and led the team to a positive goal differential over the last five games, he is obviously just the beneficiary of the exemplary job that Winter did managing the squad earlier this season.


Well, I'd be careful throwing out win loss records in criticizing Winter and praising Mariner. It is a very subjective picture.

As pointed out, Winter was 1-1-3 to start the 2011 season.

Further, Winter had the team in a much improved form at the end of July through the end of the season. (3-2-6) including just 1 defeat in their last 7 matches.

If you mix in the CCL record (Preliminary + Group stage) over that same time frame, Winter's record was 8-4-7 with at least 8 weeks of mid-week games and travel through Mexico and Latin America. The 1-9-0 start to this season is what folks focus on but that end of season achievement is somewhat of the benchmark for Mariner to surpass before we can conclude tangible improvement.

[T-boy]

Good result over a tough team. And the best moment of the game was that tackle by Emory. That was tackle of the season, it was fantastic!

And Dunfield taking Henry out of the game was also worthy match moment! Henry wasn't up for it after that! I know many don't like Dunfield, but he's there to stop the opponent, and he certainly did that yesterday! It may have been a "poor tackle" in footballing terms, but it also took out Henry and he didn't want to run with the ball after that tackle! Nice one Dunfield! :)

[T-boy]

Let's look at today's example. Koevermans scores off a corner kick.
What system does that fall under? 4-3-3, 4-2-2, -5-1, 4-2-3-1?? Is it hoof ball? Is it defensive like Preki? Or possession like Winter?
Answer: NONE OF THE ABOVE.
It's the fucken ball going into the net and Koevermans bounce going in. There is no system in this.
The guy was out of shape, and had some nagging injuries. Now he is in form and the balls are going in. The MLSE board couldn't wait it out and fired Winter. That's it!!
Nothing here to over analyze.
Put it another way, you really think we would go all season with only 3 wins?!!

TFC NEVER looked dangerous from set piece under winter. Since Mariner has taken over it looks llike they practice corners and free kicks regularly. This may not be due to "formations", but its down to training and tactics. TFC looked dangerous from every corner yesterday, and that is definitely down to Mariner and his training sessions.

[Yohan]

TFC NEVER looked dangerous from set piece under winter. Since Mariner has taken over it looks llike they practice corners and free kicks regularly. This may not be due to "formations", but its down to training and tactics. TFC looked dangerous from every corner yesterday, and that is definitely down to Mariner and his training sessions.
You do know tfc scored a few this yr off of set pieces under winter? In ccl esp

[brad]

What's our record under Mariner? 1 win, 3 draws 1 loss?

To be honest - that doesn't seem much different than the sorts of results Winter was getting last season angrier the DPs came in, and Danny was scoring for fun as well.

This year he was without a fit Koevs for most if not all of his tenure, and Frings was out for a bit as well.

While I want Mariner to succeed - its far to early to call it a turn around.

[brad]

A major positive for me last night is the backline looked composed against one of the best attacks in the league. We didn't collapse and hoof it out for the last 20 minutes either - although NY didn't really press us that hard at the end.

[denime]

1-1 result is good for both teams,game was so,so. I wouldn't call it dull,but exciting soccer wasn't aether.

Healthy Koevermans is what we missed for the most of this season and he is a difference maker for me not the coach.

Players makes things happen,missing sitters ,scoring amazing goals,individual brain farts in defense,following ball instead of opponent and so on,credit nor blame can be attached on coach.

Is Mariner long term solution time will tell,right now TFC FO has no long term vision,it is all about salvaging this season before ST renewal time,it is all about ST renewals.


As for "Turning the corner" I would say NO, Mariner did not turn the corner,Winter was in May 3-2-2 and we will see where Mariner is going to be in June after 7 games as for now we are 1-1-3 and that is not turning the corner.



Only positive thing from yesterday game was Nesta being guest in ML$E private box,let's hope for the best,god knows we need player his caliber in the defense.

[Yohan]

Logan Emory looks good. I rate him pretty high and Cann might find it hard to get his spot back

[ManUtd4ever]

1-1 result is good for both teams,game was so,so. I wouldn't call it dull,but exciting soccer wasn't aether.

Healthy Koevermans is what we missed for the most of this season and he is a difference maker for me not the coach.

Players makes things happen,missing sitters ,scoring amazing goals,individual brain farts in defense,following ball instead of opponent and so on,credit nor blame can be attached on coach.

Is Mariner long term solution time will tell,right now TFC FO has no long term vision,it is all about salvaging this season before ST renewal time,it is all about ST renewals.


As for "Turning the corner" I would say NO, Mariner did not turn the corner,Winter was in May 3-2-2 and we will see where Mariner is going to be in June after 7 games as for now we are 1-1-3 and that is not turning the corner.



Only positive thing from yesterday game was Nesta being guest in ML$E private box,let's hope for the best,god knows we need player his caliber in the defense.

I agree that it's too early to suggest that Mariner has helped TFC "turn the corner" this season. My only point was that he surely deserves some credit for the immediate improvement in the club's fortunes since he took over at the helm, based on the reasons others and I have suggested.

On another note, the Nesta sighting at BMO last night is encouraging news!

[Rene Kingsriver]

I thought we played well, not great, definitely better in the first half. As for all the talk of Winter having turned the corner and Mariner enjoying the benefits, well what about the fact that Mariner was more involved in the coaching at the end of Winter reign, this was apaprent in the Canadian Championship games? Take the VC out of the equation and Winter was 1-4-0 in his last 5 MLS games, Mariner has been 1-1-3.

[denime]

I thought we played well, not great, definitely better in the first half. As for all the talk of Winter having turned the corner and Mariner enjoying the benefits, well what about the fact that Mariner was more involved in the coaching at the end of Winter reign, this was apaprent in the Canadian Championship games? Take the VC out of the equation and Winter was 1-4-0 in his last 5 MLS games, Mariner has been 1-1-3.

You can't take VC out,VC games are games that TFC played in May and they count one way or another.If TFC played Edmonton I would agree with you,but we played two MLS teams in VC and beat them.If I'm not mistaken we beat Montreal 2-0 with 10 players.

[Rene Kingsriver]

You can't take VC out,VC games are games that TFC played in May and they count one way or another.If TFC played Edmonton I would agree with you,but we played two MLS teams in VC and beat them.If I'm not mistaken we beat Montreal 2-0 with 10 players.

Ok then the VC games from when Mariner got more involved in coaching should count for him too

[denime]

Ok then the VC games from when Mariner got more involved in coaching should count for him too

I never said it should not,but now to go back and for who is responsible for what is waste of time.

Winter is gone,Mariner has 'till end of season to prove is he long term solution or not.

[Richard]

My gut is saying Mariner and ABC are sticking around for another year after Bell/Rogers takeover. I dont really see a clean house taking place, especailly when the takover is going to be fall by the look of it. Maybe some top managment shift but not Mariner imo, im thinking the new owners want a good first hand evaluation of the front office.

[bertal]

decent result. but I thought the back line played really narrow which allowed nyrb's wingers to bomb forward

[Rene Kingsriver]

I never said it should not,but now to go back and for who is responsible for what is waste of time.

Winter is gone,Mariner has 'till end of season to prove is he long term solution or not.

Yep, agreed

[Ajax TFC]

The goal aside, how many do you think we would have conceded against a pretty damn good New York team if Winter was still here? Because that team leaked goals and never looked as confident as they did today under Winter ( with a pairing we have never used at CB).

Bottom line: the football is worse. But, we are a better team.
Winter got the exact same score against them at home last season... Don't pretend that Winter was never able to get results against good teams

[jloome]

If I am being honest, I'm sending the NYRB midfield a thank you card for not pushing forward very often on the attack.

I'm not. That was good defense. They had no room to move the ball up and their passing was as shocking as our has been in the past. New york had more possession, but most of it was in their end.

[Yohan]

Winter got the exact same score against them at home last season... Don't pretend that Winter was never able to get results against good teams

New york last year wasnt a very good team

[Ajax TFC]

New york last year wasnt a very good team
because their defense was crap. But they were tied for second most goals scored at 50. He was claiming that Winter's TFC would have let in more goals against them, and I say not necessarily

[Yohan]

http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2012/07/henry-backe-impressed-by-mariner-led-toronto-fc-1.html

Backe and Henry doesnt think Mariner is an idiot

[Greatest Ripoff]

I think this game also showed how much they need to find 1 or 2 strikers to add to the roster. Toronto would have had a better chance of getting the 3 points if Koevermans had been replaced by a striker instead of the midfielder. This team will be absolutely fucked if him or Johnson get injured.

[denime]

http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2012/07/henry-backe-impressed-by-mariner-led-toronto-fc-1.html

Backe and Henry doesnt think Mariner is an idiot

True,but Backe explained the best what we play today comparing to month ago.

Red Bulls Head Coach Hans Backe echoed the sentiment. “Their playing style is totally different compared to when they had Aaron Winter as a coach when they were trying to play from the back four and to come out from the back four,” he noted.

“Now they are in a typical, very, very direct, football first pass out to strikers.

[Richard]

^ I never understand that type of tactic. A simple pass towards a midfield player from your CB or fullback should not be an oddidty or called skillfull, its basic football which every player should be able complete. This direct bullshit pisses me off, it does nothing but give up possesion, if your players cant make a 5-10 foot pass then they should be cut in this era.

[Super]

If you go on the NYRB supporters forum on Big Soccer you will find that they too feel that TFC is an improved side under Mariner. Usually they laugh at us. Not so much right now.

We've improved under Mariner.

[Oldtimer]

Basically TFC went straight from an overly complex system (for MLS-quality players) to route A kick and run. Why is there no in-between? I refuse to believe that NCAA graduates can't play at least a somewhat more technical game.

You can see in the post-game interviews that Koevermans avoids giving any credit to Mariner, even when directly prompted, but indicates more that they have hit their stride.

TFC has some very good players, so they may do OK and end up being a mediocre MLS side. One cynical comment on the Ives site is telling of how things run under Anselmi:


Fair result. It will be interesting to see how Toronto FC dismantle and demoralize themselves in the offseason.

[Ajax TFC]

If you go on the NYRB supporters forum on Big Soccer you will find that they too feel that TFC is an improved side under Mariner. Usually they laugh at us. Not so much right now.

We've improved under Mariner.
I remember opposition fans saying the same things about us under Winter before the 0-9, and even then they still talked about how the team isn't as bad as the record

[Chris Wren]

Danny probably didn't want to bury his former coach.

I thought we played well. I'm not sure what the stats say, but I saw TFC allowing NY to pass it around without really doing anything threatening more often than not. When we got possession we would quickly advance and play a long ball. Many times we would gain possession deep with that long ball and try to make something happen. Some may describe that as unattractive, but against the first place team it was effective.

Despite what anyone may have thought before he took over, or despite whatever admiration people had for Winter and his (phantom, in my opinion) system, Mariner deserves some credit for the immediate turnaround in TFC. One doesn't have to like him, but credit must be given where it's due. I know it's mostly draws, but we were on a horrible road for awhile. Things don't look so bad at the moment.

[v00d00daddy]

Credit where it's due....I liked our defensive shape in the second half. NYRB looked frustrated which was nice to see.

As for "phantom systems" and "immediate" turn arounds....please.

The turn around started prior to Winter's firing.

Also...if you gave Winter a striker like Koevermans, in form, and scoring every game, I think you might find that there would have been a few better results in the first 10 games.

The results look decent right now but that's the only thing that looks good.

There was a play near the end of the first half where we had a throw in the NYRB half. Koevermans asked Hall for the ball at his feet for the quick throw and Hall brushed him off...looked at Mariner who actually made the motion of a long throw. Ball was thrown long into the box on the head of one of 3 NYRB defenders waiting and out it went.

I promptly said fuck this and left to take a piss as I was so annoyed with that shit.

Once you resort to long throws at every opportunity it's equal to giving up in my books. You no longer care about tactics or brains or worrying your opponent. Once they know that every throw is going to be played long, into the box, they defend it easily every time. And when we decide to do it over and over it reeks of bush league play.

Mariner looks like a complete idiot on the touch line. He's up and screaming directions even when the play is at the northeast corner of the stadium. Not one player could hear him but it didn't stop him from ranting like a lunatic. He's a sideshow. LOL

But whatever...upwards and onwards. We're well on our way to being a juggernaut in this league. LOL

[Beach_Red]

Credit where it's due....I liked our defensive shape in the second half. NYRB looked frustrated which was nice to see.

As for "phantom systems" and "immediate" turn arounds....please.

The turn around started prior to Winter's firing.

Also...if you gave Winter a striker like Koevermans, in form, and scoring every game, I think you might find that there would have been a few better results in the first 10 games.

The results look decent right now but that's the only thing that looks good.

There was a play near the end of the first half where we had a throw in the NYRB half. Koevermans asked Hall for the ball at his feet for the quick throw and Hall brushed him off...looked at Mariner who actually made the motion of a long throw. Ball was thrown long into the box on the head of one of 3 NYRB defenders waiting and out it went.

I promptly said fuck this and left to take a piss as I was so annoyed with that shit.

Once you resort to long throws at every opportunity it's equal to giving up in my books. You no longer care about tactics or brains or worrying your opponent. Once they know that every throw is going to be played long, into the box, they defend it easily every time. And when we decide to do it over and over it reeks of bush league play.

Mariner looks like a complete idiot on the touch line. He's up and screaming directions even when the play is at the northeast corner of the stadium. Not one player could hear him but it didn't stop him from ranting like a lunatic. He's a sideshow. LOL

But whatever...upwards and onwards. We're well on our way to being a juggernaut in this league. LOL

Well, we may be on our way to the middle of the pack, which is really the most we can expect from this kind of corporate ownership in a parity league.

So, Mariner plays a bush league style for now. That's not so bad, he's digging the team out of a deep hole - our own player (maybe best player?) called us the worst team in the league. At that point it isn't about possession stats or long throw-ins, it's about attitude. Every team in this league looked at TFC as a place to get points and TFC really seemed to be accepting that.

The real issue will be once the attitude has changed and the team does need to move to next level, will they be able to? Maybe a sideshow coach isn't the worst thing for this stage, but will he be able to pass on the job to right guy for the next stage?

[Pookie]

Danny probably didn't want to bury his former coach.


Danny also quite publicly and purposely tried to avoid his new coach after being subbed off in that last game. Not starting rumours but it doesn't look to be all roses.

Coaches aside, Plata was clearly a favourite on the pitch amongst the guys. When he scored, the emotions were genuine. Comments by Mariner regarding "maybe Plata wants to be the coach" and his pending "loan" just a few months after resigning point to a deeper issue and I'm not sure that we can conclude Danny is onside with the way things are going down.



Despite what anyone may have thought before he took over, or despite whatever admiration people had for Winter and his (phantom, in my opinion) system, Mariner deserves some credit for the immediate turnaround in TFC. One doesn't have to like him, but credit must be given where it's due. I know it's mostly draws, but we were on a horrible road for awhile. Things don't look so bad at the moment.

I thought we played ok and giving some credit for a 1-1-3 start is fine.

But fair play is also acknowledging that is the exact same start Winter managed in 2011. Fair play is also acknowledging that Winter managed to finish out the 2011 MLS season with a 3-2-6 record including just 1 defeat in their last 7 matches. All after the arrival of Frings and Koevermans of course.

If you mix in the CCL record (Preliminary + Group stage) over that same time frame, Winter's record was 8-4-7 with at least 8 weeks of mid-week games and travel through Mexico and Latin America.

Does the fact that Frings and Koevermans are now healthy contribute to his start? Seems to be so. Just like they gave Winter a bump when they arrived and could play.

[Wingback6]

While I haven't caught many games of late, due to work and othe commitments. These are great results.

A couple of noticeable differences between W vs M. Our backline is younger faster, and shorter, with Logan Emory at 6' 1" the tallest, and two tall FB's. Hall and Morgan 5' 11". I think this quickness has helped since it allows them to recover without the need to make rash tackles, note Doneil is pretty quick too and no taller than Emory.

We are playing with 3 DM's and 1 AM in midfield. This is perhaps key. The main issue with a 4-3-3 is if you don't keep possession, you're screwed. How often did the team fail to close out games?? Pretty often, even as of late. Possession is how you do that. If you are constantly defending, because you can't keep possession, then eventually, you will conceed, at the MLS level. All 4 starting mids, usual starting mids are comfortable on the ball.

Johnson and Koevs is good up front, but they were scoring anyway, so that is no biggie, it's the possession. Winter has a glut of attacking players. Other teams who play 4-3-3 have midfielders up there with a striker, Winter had 3 almost pure forwards, awful hard to retain possession with only 3 midfielders.

Also, I think teams in MLS just figured him out. The team ended the season strong. Other teams did their homework on what he was doing, and learned. That's Defense, observe and adjust. Same reason Plata has been a ghost. Defenders know what he's about, he hasn't adapted.

[ag futbol]

Well it’s a point in the bag and I think we’re partially benefitting from the new manager bounce. I know Winter got a result or two before he got canned, but I’d question whether that was really the beginning of a turnaround.

As for the brand of football TFC is playing right now: it’s beyond awful and if it continues in the long run I think they’ll continue in a downward spiral. This style of play (IMO) comes from the need to compete with teams week after week that have superior resources / talent. TFC with their inferior roster needs a way to get short term points, so it fits the bill. But in the long run, teams will adjust to how were playing and make the defensive adjustments, rendering this low-percentage hoofball ineffective.

There’s a reason why Gary Smith, Steve Nicol and a whole bunch of other old-school MLS coaches are without jobs currently. Mariner will be tossed on the pile as well if he can’t incorporate some more modern tactics down the road, when he has a proper roster.



Also, I think teams in MLS just figured him out. The team ended the season strong. Other teams did their homework on what he was doing, and learned. That's Defense, observe and adjust. Same reason Plata has been a ghost. Defenders know what he's about, he hasn't adapted.
Agreed, and I think this team will see the same issues down the road unless their style becomes a little less one dimensional.

[Yohan]

Well it’s a point in the bag and I think we’re partially benefitting from the new manager bounce. I know Winter got a result or two before he got canned, but I’d question whether that was really the beginning of a turnaround.

As for the brand of football TFC is playing right now: it’s beyond awful and if it continues in the long run I think they’ll continue in a downward spiral. This style of play (IMO) comes from the need to compete with teams week after week that have superior resources / talent. TFC with their inferior roster needs a way to get short term points, so it fits the bill. But in the long run, teams will adjust to how were playing and make the defensive adjustments, rendering this low-percentage hoofball ineffective.

There’s a reason why Gary Smith, Steve Nicol and a whole bunch of other old-school MLS coaches are without jobs currently. Mariner will be tossed on the pile as well if he can’t incorporate some more modern tactics down the road, when he has a proper roster.


Agreed, and I think this team will see the same issues down the road unless their style becomes a little less one dimensional.

Gary Smith manages Stevenage in League One. I think another MLS team would have given him a shot. An MLS Cup is hard to ignore on your resume.

[ag futbol]

Gary Smith manages Stevenage in League One. I think another MLS team would have given him a shot. An MLS Cup is hard to ignore on your resume.
I stand corrected on his employment status, but I think what that guy promotes is more likely to be successful in league 1 than MLS. He's basically Juan Carlos Osorio, except his team managed to fluke it's way to a finals win instead of losing.

[Pookie]

Just wanted to offer you a couple of things to think about:



A couple of noticeable differences between W vs M. Our backline is younger faster, and shorter, with Logan Emory at 6' 1" the tallest, and two tall FB's. Hall and Morgan 5' 11". I think this quickness has helped since it allows them to recover without the need to make rash tackles, note Doneil is pretty quick too and no taller than Emory.

Question though, is this really a difference between W and M? The only reason it is "younger" is because of Cann's injury. Mariner went to Emory by default. Eckersley and Morgan played for both coaches and b/w Hall and Henry you have an interchangeable player that offers the same.


We are playing with 3 DM's and 1 AM in midfield. This is perhaps key. The main issue with a 4-3-3 is if you don't keep possession, you're screwed. How often did the team fail to close out games?? Pretty often, even as of late. Possession is how you do that. If you are constantly defending, because you can't keep possession, then eventually, you will conceed, at the MLS level. All 4 starting mids, usual starting mids are comfortable on the ball.

Johnson and Koevs is good up front, but they were scoring anyway, so that is no biggie, it's the possession. Winter has a glut of attacking players. Other teams who play 4-3-3 have midfielders up there with a striker, Winter had 3 almost pure forwards, awful hard to retain possession with only 3 midfielders.

That all sounds reasonable. Except that under Mariner, possession is actually down by about 10% if you compare Winter's 2012 MLS average vs Mariner's 5 games. Passing accuracy is down by a similar amount. I'm not sure the numbers back up your observations. If anything, it points to Winter's system as being more conducive to maintaining possession.


Same reason Plata has been a ghost. Defenders know what he's about, he hasn't adapted.

I'm not sure that is fair. Plata hasn't had many opportunities to play, earning less than 50% of the minutes available this season. In the games he did play, he didn't necessarily have the benefit of a healthy Koevermans along side. Quite a few games saw Plata being expected to win 50/50 balls in the air. Which obviously isn't his strength.

[bigredone]

This question/comment is a little late, but WOW, was it simply that once Koevs gets barreling down the pitch he cannot stop? I thought the traffic police would come out and declare that tackle of his a hit and run by a Mac truck. Perhaps he was exhausted and wanted to rest, but that is not like Koevs. Perhaps I should not question D.K.s antics; he is very entertaining and we could always say "Danny will be Danny".

[Ajax TFC]

This question/comment is a little late, but WOW, was it simply that once Koevs gets barreling down the pitch he cannot stop? I thought the traffic police would come out and declare that tackle of his a hit and run by a Mac truck. Perhaps he was exhausted and wanted to rest, but that is not like Koevs. Perhaps I should not question D.K.s antics; he is very entertaining and we could always say "Danny will be Danny".
you talking about his perfect slide tackle around the 80th minute? Cause then I'm not sure what your point is

[bigredone]

Ya, that perfect one. To me it looked more like a rugby play, but I guess that is MLS.
Emory had a good tackle and although far from pretty, Dunfield's had purpose.

[Chris Wren]

Winter is gone. Get over it. We have improved since the change. That's a fact.

[Shakes McQueen]

Basically TFC went straight from an overly complex system (for MLS-quality players) to route A kick and run. Why is there no in-between? I refuse to believe that NCAA graduates can't play at least a somewhat more technical game.

You can see in the post-game interviews that Koevermans avoids giving any credit to Mariner, even when directly prompted, but indicates more that they have hit their stride.

TFC has some very good players, so they may do OK and end up being a mediocre MLS side. One cynical comment on the Ives site is telling of how things run under Anselmi:

Pretty sure Koevermans always liked playing for Winter, right to the very end, so it might just be a) a desire not to kick the departed coach when he's down, and b) some unhappiness at the reshuffle.

Koevermans has always been very much about the players taking responsibility for their results when they were bad, so perhaps he's just being consistent, now that they aren't so terrible.

- Scott

[reggie]

how long before the players tune out P M?
he looks like a clown running up and down the sidelines,reminds me of my under 16 playing days.

[Ajax TFC]

^It's already happened.

[brad]

Winter is gone. Get over it. We have improved since the change. That's a fact.

Improved results have also corresponded with DK getting fit and scoring.

We saw the same improvement last year under Winter when the DP's arrived. We went from always losing to drawing more often with the odd win.

That's were we sit now. I need to see more to believe that the turnaround is down to Mariner and not Winters DP finding form.

[ryan]

Winter is gone. Get over it. We have improved since the change. That's a fact.

It's a fact our possession, shots for, shots against, pass rate, etc, are worse. Those are facts. Koevermans is now executing the chances he was missing earlier in the year, another fact.

Heaven forbid anyone looks deeper than the end result.

[ryan]

Basically TFC went straight from an overly complex system (for MLS-quality players) to route A kick and run. Why is there no in-between? I refuse to believe that NCAA graduates can't play at least a somewhat more technical game.

You can see in the post-game interviews that Koevermans avoids giving any credit to Mariner, even when directly prompted, but indicates more that they have hit their stride.

TFC has some very good players, so they may do OK and end up being a mediocre MLS side. One cynical comment on the Ives site is telling of how things run under Anselmi:

I agree. We're never going to be a regular top side playing this way, it'll have ups and downs but this isn't the path to becoming a perennial. We'll be figured out as time passes and I'm not sure there's any tricks up Mariner's shorts once we get to that point.

[denime]

Winter is gone. Get over it. We have improved since the change. That's a fact.

True,he is gone we are over it,but if you want to talk facts let's face it,our possession, shots for and against, pass rate,are worse than under Winter in 2012, Winter was 3-2-2 in May,Mariner is for now 1-1-3 only if TFC wins next two games we can say we have improved results under Mariner.

Our game style and all other statistics are worst now than under Winter,and those are the facts.like it or not.

Getting rid of Winter was right move,hiring Mariner as head coach is very questionable hiring as far I'm concern.


Red Bulls Head Coach Hans Backe echoed the sentiment. “Their playing style is totally different compared to when they had Aaron Winter as a coach when they were trying to play from the back four and to come out from the back four,” he noted.

“Now they are in a typical, very, very direct, football first pass out to strikers.-hoofball

[BHTC Mike]

I stand corrected on his employment status, but I think what that guy promotes is more likely to be successful in league 1 than MLS. He's basically Juan Carlos Osorio, except his team managed to fluke it's way to a finals win instead of losing.
Wait, what?

Osorio's Red Bulls were an 8th seed (final Wild Card), in a 14 team league with two newer expansion teams who had next to no chance of making the playoffs, who backdoored their way into the playoffs on the final day when they didn't get a result but every other team lost too: they were only 4 points and a little GD better than OUR shitty 2008 team! The next year he lead them to a season that was amongst the worst all time in MLS. Richie Williams had that same team playing decent more or less right away: 3W-2D-3L over 8 games played. Osorio was Winter-level bad overall in his time in charge of NY only managing to post 12 wins in 52 games over a season and a half... he did have one completely against form run in a cup though!

Smith's Rapids were a comfortable 7 seed, 7 points above what ended up being necessary to make the playoffs, in a much improved 16 team league. New expansion teams like Seattle were consistent competitors and San Jose were for real by that point too. Over the last half of the season they went 9W-4D-4L and were, IIRC, the second hottest team in the league over that stretch which is why, along with crossing over into the weaker East, they were considered a strong dark horse pick before going on to win (ugly). The next year, LAST YEAR(!), he got an injury ravaged squad into the playoffs again with a higher points total (but slightly lower PPG) and HIGHER league position before falling out with senior management and losing to KC after making it throught he Wild Card round! Smith's successor Pareja has the Rapids playing a more expansive and arguably entertaining style but results are actually worse than either of those seasons when measured by PPG.

According to Wiki, overall Smith won 47 out of 112 games in charge in Colorado over three seasons nearly doubling Osorio's win percentage in charge of New York. To put that in context: Gary Smith won more games than most of our coaches even lasted!

You can play effective possession football and ineffective possession football in MLS and you can play effective direct football and ineffective direct football too. For every ineffective "MLS style" "American" or "British" style coach there's been there's been an equally ineffective "Latin", "Dutch", or "possession style" coach. Gary Smith didn't have his teams play pretty football very much but you can't argue that he wasn't effective. As always, there's more than one way to win and the notion, pushed by oldtimer more than anyone, that direct football is an MLS 1.0 style ineffective in the modern league isn't supported by evidence. LA and DC, the two most successful sides in early MLS, played more possession based styles back then AFAIK. KC has become one of the most exciting teams in the league by playing a style that focuses on pressing relentlessly, winning back possession as quick as possible, and attacking with pace immeadiately. It's a style that doesn't concern itself with keeping possession so much as gaining and then exploiting possession. What is unequivocally true is that NO ONE in MLS has the talent or technical ability to completely dominate a match with possession the way Spain or Barcelona do. What they do is from another planet and more or less impossible to replicate anywhere.

Regardless, it's way too early to make any concrete judgements about the style Mariner ultimately wants to see TFC adopt. The style we're playing is dictated by a young and inexperienced back line not capable of passing their way out of trouble. It's just a gut instinct but I don't think this style is a long term objective of Mariner's or how he see's the team playing once he's had more time to start building the squad the way he wants. I expect that we'll always be more direct than we were under Winter but, with time, a more balanced style that can switch between direct long balls to pressure the other team's defense and possession in midfield to hold leads wouldn't be the worst development or a style unsuited to MLS. If he can get the current squad believing in themselves and consistently competing before then all the better.

[ag futbol]

Wait, what?

That's just to say that overall he won the cup based on getting into the playoffs on a low seed. Colorado wasn't as bad as RBNY, but they really had no business winning the cup that year.

Stylistically, I know he was different than Osorio.

[BHTC Mike]

That's just to say that overall he won the cup based on getting into the playoffs on a low seed. Colorado wasn't as bad as RBNY, but they really had no business winning the cup that year.
I just don't think it's fair to characterize their season as a fluke (in the same way New York's was under Osorio). The flukey part of the Rapids championship was their playoff run where they never really looked very good but managed to win a PK shootout, host the 8th seed in a sub-zero (and ugly) "Eastern" Conference Final, and then get the bounces, reffing decisions, and ugly goals in the final (in more sub-zero conditions!). It's because of how bad that final was that we don't remember them as great champions but their record from the second half of 2010 on through 2011 in the league is actually quite impressive.

[Shakes McQueen]

True,he is gone we are over it,but if you want to talk facts let's face it,our possession, shots for and against, pass rate,are worse than under Winter in 2012, Winter was 3-2-2 in May,Mariner is for now 1-1-3 only if TFC wins next two games we can say we have improved results under Mariner.

Our game style and all other statistics are worst now than under Winter,and those are the facts.like it or not.

Getting rid of Winter was right move,hiring Mariner as head coach is very questionable hiring as far I'm concern.

I don't see how it's an objective fact that our style of play is worse, when it's garnering better results, which are what ultimately matter?

I still think it's highly questionable as to whether Mariner's stewardship and tactics are good enough to be a viable future for this team, but I don't think there's any question of whether they've been better than Winter's thus far.

- Scott

[Pookie]

I don't see how it's an objective fact that our style of play is worse, when it's garnering better results, which are what ultimately matter?

I still think it's highly questionable as to whether Mariner's stewardship and tactics are good enough to be a viable future for this team, but I don't think there's any question of whether they've been better than Winter's thus far.

- Scott

I think this is the issue. Better than Winter's team over what period?

If we are taking snapshots, which picture is one using? With both DPs returning to health, Winter posted a 3-2-2 record in the month of May (MLS and ACC) before he was fired. Certainly, if you compare PM and AW from May to June, there isn't any evidence to suggest they are "better".

If you take the 1-9-0 picture then it tells a different story. All depends on what one wants to see.

[Shakes McQueen]

I think this is the issue. Better than Winter's team over what period?

If we are taking snapshots, which picture is one using? With both DPs returning to health, Winter posted a 3-2-2 record in the month of May (MLS and ACC) before he was fired. Certainly, if you compare PM and AW from May to June, there isn't any evidence to suggest they are "better".

If you take the 1-9-0 picture then it tells a different story. All depends on what one wants to see.

I can only compare their league performances, as Mariner hasn't had the opportunity to preside over any ACC/CCL games yet. I don't "want" to see anything. I gave Winter full marks for the teams CCL performance, and full marks for the team getting through the ACC. I also defended the man all last season.

For whatever reason, he couldn't hack it in league play. The split between his performance in the CCL and MLS was staggering.

- Scott

[Greatest Ripoff]

Winter is gone. Get over it. We have improved since the change. That's a fact.

Winter needed to be removed but it is not a fact that the team has improved.

Under Winter in May the team had 3 wins, under Mariner in June the team had 1 win.

[Chris Wren]

I think this is the issue. Better than Winter's team over what period?

If we are taking snapshots, which picture is one using? With both DPs returning to health, Winter posted a 3-2-2 record in the month of May (MLS and ACC) before he was fired. Certainly, if you compare PM and AW from May to June, there isn't any evidence to suggest they are "better".

If you take the 1-9-0 picture then it tells a different story. All depends on what one wants to see.

I am talking the 1-9-0 picture. That one is pretty important. The massive goal differential this year is another major one.

To quote Mugatu "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills". I clearly describe in my first post that NYRB had a lot of possession and passed the ball around a lot, without generating great chances. They passed around the perimeter but had a hard time getting in. When we got the ball it was a long ball and more often than not we gained possession and took whatever chance was available... The stats would certainly say NYRB had the ball more and passed it around more, but what I saw was a pretty even game.

Talk about seeing what you want. You and a few others feel a need to point out possession and passing stats after I'd already said as much. I don't have a Paul Mariner agenda or anything, but the talk about Aron Winter is past silly at this point. If you don't want to see that we are plus in goal differential (a pretty important stat) since Mariner then you won't and if you did you'd say it doesn't matter. Is it going to take until Mariner doesn't get off to the worst start in league history next season for a reliable comparison? No. I have eyes. I can see that we are better now than we were.

[jloome]

I am talking the 1-9-0 picture. That one is pretty important. The massive goal differential this year is another major one.

To quote Mugatu "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills". I clearly describe in my first post that NYRB had a lot of possession and passed the ball around a lot, without generating great chances. They passed around the perimeter but had a hard time getting in. When we got the ball it was a long ball and more often than not we gained possession and took whatever chance was available... The stats would certainly say NYRB had the ball more and passed it around more, but what I saw was a pretty even game.

Talk about seeing what you want. You and a few others feel a need to point out possession and passing stats after I'd already said as much. I don't have a Paul Mariner agenda or anything, but the talk about Aron Winter is past silly at this point. If you don't want to see that we are plus in goal differential (a pretty important stat) since Mariner then you won't and if you did you'd say it doesn't matter. Is it going to take until Mariner doesn't get off to the worst start in league history next season for a reliable comparison? No. I have eyes. I can see that we are better now than we were.

I couldn't agree more.

I'd also note that aside from the record being one loss in our last six games, we've also led every game except the one we lost and the Red Bulls, where we answered quickly.

More chances, more pressure. The reason we have less possession is because we're pushing high; most of that is the other team passing it around their own end and trying to get out.

It has been better. I'm not disparaging 4-3-3 possession football in that, as it is attractive; and I thought Winter was a nice guy. But this style works better against teams in MLS which typically deploy full-field pressure, often marking man-to-man.

We're not just carving out earlier chances, they're also better; low crosses from close to the endline likely to cause problems, instead of deep balls from far out from the sideline to the one forward in a 4-3-3. It's all tactically better suited to MLS; he's betting our guys are better in individual matchups, then playing direct football.

I don't know what role Mariner had in Winter's demise and objectively, it has nothing to do with whether they're better. To me, they're obviously a much more competitive team.

[ag futbol]

Basically TFC went straight from an overly complex system (for MLS-quality players) to route A kick and run. Why is there no in-between? I refuse to believe that NCAA graduates can't play at least a somewhat more technical game.

This is exactly where I'm at. I think Winter was clearly past it, but we've swung to the opposite end of the spectrum, one where I think it's neither beautiful to watch or capable of delivering results when it counts.

We're playing football designed for also-rans. Credit for the bounce and making the most of it, but when teams eventually get enough tape on Paul Mariners TFC, when they start to take us out of our game a bit, in my opinion we won't be effective. We better find something more to our game than we're showing currently.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I am talking the 1-9-0 picture. That one is pretty important. The massive goal differential this year is another major one.

To quote Mugatu "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills". I clearly describe in my first post that NYRB had a lot of possession and passed the ball around a lot, without generating great chances. They passed around the perimeter but had a hard time getting in. When we got the ball it was a long ball and more often than not we gained possession and took whatever chance was available... The stats would certainly say NYRB had the ball more and passed it around more, but what I saw was a pretty even game.

Talk about seeing what you want. You and a few others feel a need to point out possession and passing stats after I'd already said as much. I don't have a Paul Mariner agenda or anything, but the talk about Aron Winter is past silly at this point. If you don't want to see that we are plus in goal differential (a pretty important stat) since Mariner then you won't and if you did you'd say it doesn't matter. Is it going to take until Mariner doesn't get off to the worst start in league history next season for a reliable comparison? No. I have eyes. I can see that we are better now than we were.

Just a couple things, Chris. If you don't want to talk Winter, don't mention him. It had been like half a day since the last Winter comparison. And I understand. I'd rather talk about what I see now.

What I saw was some of the best chances, one by Lambe, RJ more than a couple times both had opportunities, a step on their defenders and chose to go well wide to the corner and wait. I can see the purpose in this if there's more than one defender to beat but that wasn't the case. Lambe's was moreso stopping dead at the top corner of the 18 to wait to pass. He had the man beat. That was his last (only(?)) chance of the match and he didn't show well after that.

Overcritical? Perhaps, but if we are playing this extremely opportunistic way then it's these chances lost that cost us 2pts.

[Pookie]

I can only compare their league performances, as Mariner hasn't had the opportunity to preside over any ACC/CCL games yet. I don't "want" to see anything. I gave Winter full marks for the teams CCL performance, and full marks for the team getting through the ACC. I also defended the man all last season.

For whatever reason, he couldn't hack it in league play. The split between his performance in the CCL and MLS was staggering.

- Scott

Agreed to some extent.

The reason that May's 3-2-2 results are interesting though is that the ACC games were played against MLS sides. Those weren't totals run up against FC Edmonton.

We are talking the 4th place Whitecaps. We are talking Montreal, the same side who put out the same roster that we are giving PM credit for a Win against. Seems somewhat disingenuous to discount AW's results if we are trying to determine if our team is progressing.

The way I see it, a healthy set of DPs contributed to a relative strong May under AW 3-2-2 and they have continued to contribute to PMs June 1-1-3.

Under both coaches we have points in over 70% of the matches that Frings plays in and when Danny scores we are something like 6-3-5. Without them, our roster is painfully lacking depth regardless of the system played.

[Oldtimer]

This is exactly where I'm at. I think Winter was clearly past it, but we've swung to the opposite end of the spectrum, one where I think it's neither beautiful to watch or capable of delivering results when it counts.

We're playing football designed for also-rans. Credit for the bounce and making the most of it, but when teams eventually get enough tape on Paul Mariners TFC, when they start to take us out of our game a bit, in my opinion we won't be effective. We better find something more to our game than we're showing currently.

We might get to a mediocre middling level, maybe even barely squeak into the playoffs next year, if Mariner continues in the job and with his plan. That will be it though.

The type of football TFC is playing right now was dated a decade ago. It's hopelessly out of date now. OK, TFC isn't Barcelona, I get that, we don't have that quality of player. However, the better MLS squads combine the physical side of MLS with on-the-ground technical passing play. KC is one of those (they play a combined physical and technical form of 4-3-3 that works really well in MLS). RSL is another (they play a more technical 4-1-2-1-2). TFC won't be able to play at their level.

[ryan]

We might get to a mediocre middling level, maybe even barely squeak into the playoffs next year, if Mariner continues in the job and with his plan. That will be it though.

The type of football TFC is playing right now was dated a decade ago. It's hopelessly out of date now. OK, TFC isn't Barcelona, I get that, we don't have that quality of player. However, the better MLS squads combine the physical side of MLS with on-the-ground technical passing play. KC is one of those (they play a combined physical and technical form of 4-3-3 that works really well in MLS). RSL is another (they play a more technical 4-1-2-1-2). TFC won't be able to play at their level.

Now it might be hard to judge cause it's their offseason, but playing Santos should be a good comparison. Outside of our handball meltdown, we played them very well and looked like we belonged. What will this direct style bring us to?

[Pookie]

I am talking the 1-9-0 picture. That one is pretty important. The massive goal differential this year is another major one.

To quote Mugatu "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills". I clearly describe in my first post that NYRB had a lot of possession and passed the ball around a lot, without generating great chances. They passed around the perimeter but had a hard time getting in. When we got the ball it was a long ball and more often than not we gained possession and took whatever chance was available... The stats would certainly say NYRB had the ball more and passed it around more, but what I saw was a pretty even game.

Talk about seeing what you want. You and a few others feel a need to point out possession and passing stats after I'd already said as much. I don't have a Paul Mariner agenda or anything, but the talk about Aron Winter is past silly at this point. If you don't want to see that we are plus in goal differential (a pretty important stat) since Mariner then you won't and if you did you'd say it doesn't matter. Is it going to take until Mariner doesn't get off to the worst start in league history next season for a reliable comparison? No. I have eyes. I can see that we are better now than we were.

Hey Chris,

Sometimes my Mariner focus gets mis-interpreted. I'm not wanting the guy to fail. I'm also not pining for some skewed vision of glory days under Winter.

The reason that I am trying to be objective here is to stand up to the MLSE spin that is going to wash over us as the wave of season ticket renewals approaches.

Winter's May record is important. 3-2-2 with a 0 goal differential. All earned against MLS teams. Mariner's June is equally important 1-1-3 with a +1. All earned against MLS teams.

Winter's end of 2011 run is also important (end of July onwards). 3-2-6 in MLS play with just 1 defeat in their last 7. Throw in CONCACAF and it is 8-4-7.

What's the common thread through all of that? Frings and Koevermans arrived in July. Frings and Koevermans played through the end of 2011. Frings and Koevermans were hurt through the early part of the season. Frings and Koevermans returned to health and to form again in May.

Seems like our record immediately improves when they are healthy and in form and suffers when they are not here.

To me, that shows that under both coaches we lacked depth. Which points to roster mis-management. Which will still exist while we have this silly idea that we can take 1/3 of our 30 man roster and fill it with local players while ignoring the entire North American talent pool. Which will still exist without a football mind at the top to put resources into scouting. And will still exist when both of these guys end their contracts in less than a season and a half.

That's why I keep pushing for a focus on immediate results and accoutability beyond Mariner.

[Oldtimer]

Now it might be hard to judge cause it's their offseason, but playing Santos should be a good comparison. Outside of our handball meltdown, we played them very well and looked like we belonged. What will this direct style bring us to?

We'll be out in the first round.

[Canary10]

We might get to a mediocre middling level, maybe even barely squeak into the playoffs next year, if Mariner continues in the job and with his plan. That will be it though.

The type of football TFC is playing right now was dated a decade ago. It's hopelessly out of date now. OK, TFC isn't Barcelona, I get that, we don't have that quality of player. However, the better MLS squads combine the physical side of MLS with on-the-ground technical passing play. KC is one of those (they play a combined physical and technical form of 4-3-3 that works really well in MLS). RSL is another (they play a more technical 4-1-2-1-2). TFC won't be able to play at their level.

Vancouver even plays 4-3-3 at times.

If Mariner is sticking with this system for the time being to really instill it before moving on to be more flexible in formation depending on the opponent, I'd be happier. I don't think that's the case though.

[Greatest Ripoff]

moving on to be more flexible in formation depending on the opponent. I don't think that's the case though.

This is what I would love to see. You are seeing lots of teams in MLS teams playing different styles and systems. The team should be playing what will give the best chance of 3 points for each match. And I am not surprised to see you bring this up, as this is something that Paul Lambert did very effectively with Norwich last season.

[Canary10]

This is what I would love to see. You are seeing lots of teams in MLS teams playing different styles and systems. The team should be playing what will give the best chance of 3 points for each match. And I am not surprised to see you bring this up, as this is something that Paul Lambert did very effectively with Norwich last season.

Don't bring up that name to me!! That bastard.

[Beach_Red]

Vancouver even plays 4-3-3 at times.

If Mariner is sticking with this system for the time being to really instill it before moving on to be more flexible in formation depending on the opponent, I'd be happier. I don't think that's the case though.

Well, I imagine when you take the coaching job at TFC you don't expect to be around very long so planning for "moving on" wouldn't likely be something that comes up much...

[Chris Wren]

Hey Chris,

Sometimes my Mariner focus gets mis-interpreted. I'm not wanting the guy to fail. I'm also not pining for some skewed vision of glory days under Winter.

The reason that I am trying to be objective here is to stand up to the MLSE spin that is going to wash over us as the wave of season ticket renewals approaches.

Winter's May record is important. 3-2-2 with a 0 goal differential. All earned against MLS teams. Mariner's June is equally important 1-1-3 with a +1. All earned against MLS teams.

Winter's end of 2011 run is also important (end of July onwards). 3-2-6 in MLS play with just 1 defeat in their last 7. Throw in CONCACAF and it is 8-4-7.

What's the common thread through all of that? Frings and Koevermans arrived in July. Frings and Koevermans played through the end of 2011. Frings and Koevermans were hurt through the early part of the season. Frings and Koevermans returned to health and to form again in May.

Seems like our record immediately improves when they are healthy and in form and suffers when they are not here.

To me, that shows that under both coaches we lacked depth. Which points to roster mis-management. Which will still exist while we have this silly idea that we can take 1/3 of our 30 man roster and fill it with local players while ignoring the entire North American talent pool. Which will still exist without a football mind at the top to put resources into scouting. And will still exist when both of these guys end their contracts in less than a season and a half.

That's why I keep pushing for a focus on immediate results and accoutability beyond Mariner.

We were getting worse rather than better. Last year feels like a long time ago. The CONCACAF run was more impressive to others than me. It was okay, but we were a .500 team who beat 3 good teams in that run. We didn't easily go through in that tournament, we scraped through each round. Winter's end run is not a long stretch and certainly doesn't wipe away his historically bad run this year.

I'm not an MLSE apologist or anything. I'm not saying everybody follow Mariner to greatness. What I am saying is he has turned our team around right now and anyone who wants to ignore that and keep talking about Winter when we were one of the worst teams in the history of MLS is trying to fool themselves. Our roster is like every other MLS roster, filled with mediocre talent. A coach has to work with what he has, not what he wishes he had.

Winter was playing Danny off the bench the last 2 games he coached when he was healthy. He was healthy most of the season. I remember him playing and being frustrated. Frings was a big loss, but doesn't excuse the disaster that was TFC.

The league is what matters most to me. The MLS is what we have failed at. Winning 3 or 4 consecutive Voyageur Cups is nice, but getting results in one competition while tanking in our league is not acceptable. Our league record is what got Winter fired, and rightfully so.

When will you be prepared to move on? Mariner is going to be here until the end of the year at least. If the team does well why shouldn't he continue as coach? Will this mean MLSE is pulling one over on us if this is the case?

[Oldtimer]

Most of the great football managers vary tactics depending on player availability and their opponents. For example, Sir Alex Ferguson has his team play a very different style in continental play than in the EPL. To his and his staff's credit, his players can adapt between the various styles. Any time you are fixed on one particular style, better coaches will adapt and counter your style, rendering it much less effective. If your style is very basic and simple, it's very easy for your players to learn, it's also easy to adapt against.

Of course, there are few great coaches in MLS, the best go elsewhere. However, there are a lot of solid coaches out there who (if they have the right players) can counter Mariner-style longball.

^ Chris, I'm not talking about Winter, either. He was overly technical and too inflexible. It's easy for most coaches to do better just by being mediocre. What we really need is something quite different from what we've had so far...

[BHTC Mike]

The type of football TFC is playing right now was dated a decade ago. It's hopelessly out of date now. OK, TFC isn't Barcelona, I get that, we don't have that quality of player. However, the better MLS squads combine the physical side of MLS with on-the-ground technical passing play. KC is one of those (they play a combined physical and technical form of 4-3-3 that works really well in MLS). RSL is another (they play a more technical 4-1-2-1-2). TFC won't be able to play at their level.
Point 1: As an INTERMEDIATE STEP to getting there maybe being a lot more direct RIGHT NOW and organizing the team in a way that protects an young, inexperienced, and not particularly technically savvy backline is a MORE THAN REASONABLE tactic.

Point 2: "Out of date a decade ago" fails to account for the TWO MOST RECENT MLS CUP WINNERS! Kreis' RSL have played the best football in the league, have a very good record doing it, AND WON NOTHING for the last three years. Schmid's Seattle have, IIRC, the best win percentage in the league in the three and bit years since they joined but have never won a playoff series. Their recent dip in form has seen him acknowledge that pretty football will have to be put on hold until results improve and their league form stabilizes.

How do you describe Arena's Galaxy team? They're not only the reigning champions they won back-to-back Supporter's Shields in the only two seasons where MLS played a balanced schedule. I'd describe them as a cagey, counterattacking team built on a solid defence first who like to exploit Donovan's pace in transition; they're almost what you'd call classically "Italian" in that sense. They've been criticized for it too: for all their glamorous attacking talent they don't like to take risks. And I wouldn't refer to it as a possession based style because they're not trying to actively draw out opponents by keeping possession. Instead, they've relied on a deep sitting defence and allowing opponents possession to leave space for their attackers to break into. It's not longball football but it's not possession football either.

Regardless, there's no one way to win. Styles go in and out of favour as teams innonvate, respond, and react to each other. Last decade, after Greece's Euro victory and Mourinho's Chelsea all we heard about was holding midfielders and "the Makelele role." People in Toronto tried to cast Carl fricken' Robinson as that sort of player and justify his team highest salary as a result! (I like Carl, but an elite holding mid is important to balance an attacking team and not as vital in a team that defends as a unit. It's a support role and not where I'd put most of my resources.) Trying to attribute success simply to tactics and systems misses whole parts of what makes a good manager successful!

Winning in MLS, as in any league, relies as much on:

1) Talent identification and getting the most out of the budget resources at your disposal by finding undervalued players, building them up, and keeping them happy and under contract. TFC have always been terrible at every part of that and that's the single biggest reason we've never been very good in the league.

2) Man management and motiviation. Yes, it's an intagible but it makes a difference. The best guys are capable of getting results out of weaker players by getting those players to believe in themselves. The RSL game excluded how many times did TFC take the field this year and LOOK DEFEATED within the first half an hour?

3) Putting those motivated, talented, and cheap enough that you can afford them players in a system that works for them! Not forcing a system based on an abstract ideology, recommended by a consultant, and influenced by the responses TO A MARKETING SURVEY! Letting a talented coach - jury hasn't even started deliberations on Mariner yet - to bring his own vision, experiment, and find out what that system is for the players he has access to is far more likely to achieve success IMHO.

Take a look through MLS and, I would argue, you'll find that what determines whether a manager is successful has as more to do points 1 and 2 than point 3. Style is almost an independent variable. It's only when you put the wrong players out there in a completely inappropriate style that "system" has a big influence. That's what we watched for the last year and a half in the league. It's happened before in places like Chivas, LA, and Chicago. Between successful teams style interaction can have a significant influence but there's just as much evidence that, particularly in knockout round football used to determine the championship, that cagey, defensive, counter attacking football still trumps possession football in those match-ups at the end of the season.

Regardless, and I'll just keep repeating this, it's WAY TOO EARLY to make any definitive judgements on the style Mariner adopts. Until he's had at least one opportunity to bring in the players he wants,* and probably one off season, we won't have much insight into how he sees TFC playing going forward. Yes, you can pretty confidently predict that it won't be a fluid 4-3-3 possession style based on building out of the back but, as you acknowledge, there's a lot of room between that and route one '70s longball. What we're seeing now is him taking the pieces he's inherited and trying to get some results in the short term. And that's a good thing because THIS TEAM NEEDED RESULTS. Plans are nice, academies are nice, and the VC/CCL has provided a nice counter-narrative but this team faced - FACES! - a cratering in their season ticket base if they can't start getting somewhat sustainable results in the league. Getting BACK to mediocre and at least winning more home games than they were losing would be a good first step!

*And no, this was not Mariner's team up 'til June. Yes, he had an influence but that was Aron Winter's team playing Aron Winter's football. Winter gets credit for the successes we did have - no one can take away the CCL run - but he has to own the league form that came along with that.

For a year and a half you talked endlessly about Jason Kreis needing two seasons to turn around RSL yet you're seemingly not even giving Mariner one transfer window? Kreis taking over at RSL in 2007 is FAR more comparable to Mariner taking over now. He was a guy from inside the organization who was tipped to take over a bad team part of the way into a season where they'd regressed (from an already bad position). He had no head coaching experience but was intimately familiar with MLS. His team stayed pretty bad for the rest of his first season but he started laying the groundwork for their improvement that first summer. The next year they were fairly mediocre but managed to sneak into the playoffs on the final day of the season and advance to a Conference Final. Even the next year after that they underachieved for most of the year, only got into the playoffs because of help from other teams, but went on to lift the Cup.

Is Mariner the next Kreis? Five games in I've got no clue. But neither does anyone else. Maybe he'll flame out completely and we'll start manager search and rebuild number 5435. But we're scoring goals and LEADING GAMES for the first in our league season so I'll take that for now and be happy about it. Questions about style can wait 'til later.

[BHTC Mike]

To me, that shows that under both coaches we lacked depth. Which points to roster mis-management. Which will still exist while we have this silly idea that we can take 1/3 of our 30 man roster and fill it with local players while ignoring the entire North American talent pool. Which will still exist without a football mind at the top to put resources into scouting. And will still exist when both of these guys end their contracts in less than a season and a half.
Honest question: who do you think is more likely to fix that though, Aron Winter or Paul Mariner? I wanted him here but if the newer CSN report is accurate and Mariner is opposed to the Nesta signing what does that indicate?

I want a President too but I also want a manager with a better knowledge of the North American talent pool and where MLS gets its players from. Yes, Mariner was supposed to play that role for Winter but he obviously wasn't the one with the final say on who to sign.

[Chris Wren]

Just a couple things, Chris. If you don't want to talk Winter, don't mention him. It had been like half a day since the last Winter comparison. And I understand. I'd rather talk about what I see now.

What I saw was some of the best chances, one by Lambe, RJ more than a couple times both had opportunities, a step on their defenders and chose to go well wide to the corner and wait. I can see the purpose in this if there's more than one defender to beat but that wasn't the case. Lambe's was moreso stopping dead at the top corner of the 18 to wait to pass. He had the man beat. That was his last (only(?)) chance of the match and he didn't show well after that.

Overcritical? Perhaps, but if we are playing this extremely opportunistic way then it's these chances lost that cost us 2pts.

It seems like a constant topic to me. I'm not checking post times, but half a day doesn't seem like a long time to me. It's not that I don't want to talk about him, I'm just amazed that others seem to be reminiscing about him.

I can't think of the instance you refer to, but on the whole I find that we are trying to go when we get the ball. We are getting down field in a hurry when we get the ball. Our crosses and play into the box seem more dangerous to me. this is just my opinion from watching.

[Oldtimer]

BHTC Mike,

I agree with you that issues of what "style" to play are misguided. I don't care if the team plays 4-3-3 or 4-5-1. What I care about is technical ability, and we've taken a big step backwards under Mariner. The reason why technical ability is important is that when your tactics are too simplistic, you will be found out. That will ultimately show up in the win/loss column.

Pookie and I have previously explained why we would not give Mariner tonnes of time, there is no need to go over it yet again here, you can check our previous posts on the subject.

In addition to the 3 factors for success that you've mentioned, cap management is important in any capped league. TFC has failed miserably in this regard, and that falls on Mariner and Cochrane.

[BHTC Mike]

Now it might be hard to judge cause it's their offseason, but playing Santos should be a good comparison. Outside of our handball meltdown, we played them very well and looked like we belonged. What will this direct style bring us to?


We'll be out in the first round.

Gah!!!!!111!!1!!1!!!!

YOU. CAN'T. PREDICT. THE. FUTURE.

NO ONE CAN.

You kept repeating the same thing about Preki because Chivas had gone out in the first round three times. By that logic Seattle should fire Schmid and start playing hoofball. Care to explain their lack of playoff form exclusively based on a systems reliant analysis?

It's playoffs. Luck and form matter. Seattle got humped by a counter attacking LA, an "old school MLS" Houston, and a fluent passing RSL over three separate seasons (even if they almost pulled off a miracle comeback against RSL).

There are different ways to win in this league.

[T-boy]

Credit where it's due....I liked our defensive shape in the second half. NYRB looked frustrated which was nice to see.

As for "phantom systems" and "immediate" turn arounds....please.

The turn around started prior to Winter's firing.

Also...if you gave Winter a striker like Koevermans, in form, and scoring every game, I think you might find that there would have been a few better results in the first 10 games.

The results look decent right now but that's the only thing that looks good.

There was a play near the end of the first half where we had a throw in the NYRB half. Koevermans asked Hall for the ball at his feet for the quick throw and Hall brushed him off...looked at Mariner who actually made the motion of a long throw. Ball was thrown long into the box on the head of one of 3 NYRB defenders waiting and out it went.

I promptly said fuck this and left to take a piss as I was so annoyed with that shit.

Once you resort to long throws at every opportunity it's equal to giving up in my books. You no longer care about tactics or brains or worrying your opponent. Once they know that every throw is going to be played long, into the box, they defend it easily every time. And when we decide to do it over and over it reeks of bush league play.

Mariner looks like a complete idiot on the touch line. He's up and screaming directions even when the play is at the northeast corner of the stadium. Not one player could hear him but it didn't stop him from ranting like a lunatic. He's a sideshow. LOL

But whatever...upwards and onwards. We're well on our way to being a juggernaut in this league. LOL

Was Koev's "out of shape", or was he not being played effectively by Winter?

You can argue that Koev's was out of form maybe, but were a lot of the players, who ALL seemed out of form, who are all in form, is that just a coincidence? Or has their change in form got to do with the change in management?

If it was one player, then maybe it was a change in form. But as its quite a few players, then its more than just coincidence in timing. Eckersley is now twice the players under Mariner as he was earlier in the season, RJ is playing extremely well now and was very inconsistent earlier in the season, Dunfield is now playing much better (although still limited by his own ability), Ashtone Morgan was so off form earlier in the season that Winter dropped him. He's another who is now playing well once again. Considence? I don't think so at all.

[Oldtimer]

Gah!!!!!111!!1!!1!!!!

YOU. CAN'T. PREDICT. THE. FUTURE.

NO ONE CAN.

You kept repeating the same thing about Preki because Chivas had gone out in the first round three times. By that logic Seattle should fire Schmid and start playing hoofball. Care to explain their lack of playoff form exclusively based on a systems reliant analysis?

It's playoffs. Luck and form matter. Seattle got humped by a counter attacking LA, an "old school MLS" Houston, and a fluent passing RSL over three separate seasons (even if they almost pulled off a miracle comeback against RSL).

There are different ways to win in this league.

For sure there are different ways to win.... and surprises can happen any time (most non-Italians had Germany down to win against Italy in the Euros), however people like to guess based on the odds. ryan asked me my opinion, I gave it. Surely there is no harm in predicting... and football being what it is we'll always be wrong sometimes. :D

People who guessed Germany would be in the Euro finals were wrong. People who guessed Spain were correct.

For all I know, Montreal could fire their coach, hire Preki, and win the MLS Cup. For all I know, Mariner could lead TFC on a tear and TFC wins both the Supporter's Shield and the MLS Cup as well as the CCL and Club World Cup. It's mathematically possible. But I wouldn't count on it. We can't predict the future... but we can give educated guesses that will usually be right.

[Beach_Red]

Gah!!!!!111!!1!!1!!!!

YOU. CAN'T. PREDICT. THE. FUTURE.

NO ONE CAN.

You kept repeating the same thing about Preki because Chivas had gone out in the first round three times. By that logic Seattle should fire Schmid and start playing hoofball. Care to explain their lack of playoff form exclusively based on a systems reliant analysis?

It's playoffs. Luck and form matter. Seattle got humped by a counter attacking LA, an "old school MLS" Houston, and a fluent passing RSL over three separate seasons (even if they almost pulled off a miracle comeback against RSL).

There are different ways to win in this league.

Luck and form, for sure. And attitude. To go back to a previous post of yours, TFC did often look defeated early in games - and often they were losing early on. Sometimes it was luck, but often it was the opposition's tactics to press early, get a lead and sit on it. From the start of this season teams had TFC figured out and by doing the same thing every game TFC made it easier on their opponents.

Many people here have actually said they would prefer to lose pretty rather than win ugly. I admit, I don't know soccer well enough to understand a lot of what gets debated in this forum, but I do know when a team is easily pushed around and not respected by its opposition and that's where TFC was at the beginning of this season. Right up until our own player said it was, "The worst team in the world." So, things are better now.

[Pookie]

Winter was playing Danny off the bench the last 2 games he coached when he was healthy. He was healthy most of the season. I remember him playing and being frustrated. Frings was a big loss, but doesn't excuse the disaster that was TFC.

Explanations aren't excuses. The team has no depth and puts out the youngest starting 11 in the league. That's with our 2 DPs. When they are hurt, there is little to offer via reinforcements. That's a result of roster mis-management and that goes to the top. When Frings and DK are missing, the team falters. When they are in, they have a chance.

Your recollection of DK's health/fitness is not accurate. Even with the minutes earned under Mariner, DK has played in just 65% of the minutes available.


The league is what matters most to me. The MLS is what we have failed at. Winning 3 or 4 consecutive Voyageur Cups is nice, but getting results in one competition while tanking in our league is not acceptable. Our league record is what got Winter fired, and rightfully so.

So why didn't it get Mariner, BDK, TR and EC fired as well?


When will you be prepared to move on? Mariner is going to be here until the end of the year at least. If the team does well why shouldn't he continue as coach? Will this mean MLSE is pulling one over on us if this is the case?

I've laid out 3 scenarios consistently:

RESULT: Mariner does poorly
OUTCOME: Anselmi goes. New president. He replaces Mariner with his choice

RESULT: Mariner does ok
OUTCOME: Anselmi goes. New president. He makes the decision on Mariner. I vote for stay based on desire for stability but really don't care

RESULT: Mariner pulls a miracle and makes playoffs
OUTCOME: Anselmi goes. New president. Mariner should by all rights keep his job

This team needs a scouting department. Not a make believe job for Nick Dasovic (former scout). It needs to scour NA for talent and not hide behind the flag of CDN Development. It needs a leader. Not a Director of Player Operations/Technical Development/Soccer Operations/Something else made up shared by 3 or more individuals. It needs a President that can make those organizational decisions and make resources available to see a vision through. We have none of that.

If you want to focus on a Win in Montreal (and curiously discount a win and a draw against the same side) as a reason for improvement, you are missing the big picture.

DK and TF are a band aid solution to mask organizational shortcomings and justify MLS leading high ticket prices. When they can contribute, they justify their higher salaries. Ironically, it was Winter that identified and signed them making them the only DPs to ever actually live up to their contracts.

[Pookie]

Honest question: who do you think is more likely to fix that though, Aron Winter or Paul Mariner? I wanted him here but if the newer CSN report is accurate and Mariner is opposed to the Nesta signing what does that indicate?

I want a President too but I also want a manager with a better knowledge of the North American talent pool and where MLS gets its players from. Yes, Mariner was supposed to play that role for Winter but he obviously wasn't the one with the final say on who to sign.

I want a President. Period.

I then want that President to make resources available to whomever he selects as a manager to be able to identify talent from NA and on the International Stage.

I then want that President to select a Manager who can put together a roster, based on all inputs, that is effective year in and year out and goes into each year with the expectation of winning trophies.

I have no faith that either Mariner or Winter are that guy. Mainly because I don't know if either has the structure that can support them.

For example, if Mariner is still dealing with infighting between BDK, TR, EC and who knows who else, then he stands little chance. If Mariner still has more scouts in the GTA than he has in all of North America then he stands little chance. If he has no money available to change that, he stands little chance. If Mariner is still under pressure from CSA-leaning types within and connected to the organization and TFC-Academy brochure writers to promote from within, he stands little chance. If he has to draw a 30 man roster and chooses to stock 1/3 of it with virtually un-untradeable assets given MLS Domestic Quota Rule, he stands little chance.

I'm less concerned with his desire to hoof it out than I am all of these BIG organizational issues which still exist regardless of the fact we beat the Impact again.

[ryan]

Gah!!!!!111!!1!!1!!!!

YOU. CAN'T. PREDICT. THE. FUTURE.

NO ONE CAN.

You kept repeating the same thing about Preki because Chivas had gone out in the first round three times. By that logic Seattle should fire Schmid and start playing hoofball. Care to explain their lack of playoff form exclusively based on a systems reliant analysis?

It's playoffs. Luck and form matter. Seattle got humped by a counter attacking LA, an "old school MLS" Houston, and a fluent passing RSL over three separate seasons (even if they almost pulled off a miracle comeback against RSL).

There are different ways to win in this league.


Aye but we're not talking about "this league" I'm talking about CCL, which is a different beast.

[ManUtd4ever]

I am talking the 1-9-0 picture. That one is pretty important. The massive goal differential this year is another major one.

To quote Mugatu "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills". I clearly describe in my first post that NYRB had a lot of possession and passed the ball around a lot, without generating great chances. They passed around the perimeter but had a hard time getting in. When we got the ball it was a long ball and more often than not we gained possession and took whatever chance was available... The stats would certainly say NYRB had the ball more and passed it around more, but what I saw was a pretty even game.

Talk about seeing what you want. You and a few others feel a need to point out possession and passing stats after I'd already said as much. I don't have a Paul Mariner agenda or anything, but the talk about Aron Winter is past silly at this point. If you don't want to see that we are plus in goal differential (a pretty important stat) since Mariner then you won't and if you did you'd say it doesn't matter. Is it going to take until Mariner doesn't get off to the worst start in league history next season for a reliable comparison? No. I have eyes. I can see that we are better now than we were.


I couldn't agree more.

I'd also note that aside from the record being one loss in our last six games, we've also led every game except the one we lost and the Red Bulls, where we answered quickly.

More chances, more pressure. The reason we have less possession is because we're pushing high; most of that is the other team passing it around their own end and trying to get out.

It has been better. I'm not disparaging 4-3-3 possession football in that, as it is attractive; and I thought Winter was a nice guy. But this style works better against teams in MLS which typically deploy full-field pressure, often marking man-to-man.

We're not just carving out earlier chances, they're also better; low crosses from close to the endline likely to cause problems, instead of deep balls from far out from the sideline to the one forward in a 4-3-3. It's all tactically better suited to MLS; he's betting our guys are better in individual matchups, then playing direct football.

I don't know what role Mariner had in Winter's demise and objectively, it has nothing to do with whether they're better. To me, they're obviously a much more competitive team.


I don't see how it's an objective fact that our style of play is worse, when it's garnering better results, which are what ultimately matter?

I still think it's highly questionable as to whether Mariner's stewardship and tactics are good enough to be a viable future for this team, but I don't think there's any question of whether they've been better than Winter's thus far.

- Scott

Bang on.

[joeyjones]

Agreed to some extent.

The reason that May's 3-2-2 results are interesting though is that the ACC games were played against MLS sides. Those weren't totals run up against FC Edmonton.

Under both coaches we have points in over 70% of the matches that Frings plays in and when Danny scores we are something like 6-3-5. Without them, our roster is painfully lacking depth regardless of the system played.

not sure you should be including the CCL matches in your "AW was 3-2-2 in May" analysis. 2 leg playoffs are played differently than one off league games. and, FTR, a team doesn't get points in 2 leg playoffs..

[Greatest Ripoff]

Was Koev's "out of shape", or was he not being played effectively by Winter?


If he was being misused by Winter then how did he score 8 goals in 10 games under him last season? I think Koeverman's recently goal scoring has very little to do with who is coaching him and more has to do with him rounding into form. If you listen to any of Koeverman's interviews from the past few weeks he even admits this himself and says he goes through good and poor streaks when it comes to scoring.

[Greatest Ripoff]

I want a President. Period.

I then want that President to make resources available to whomever he selects as a manager to be able to identify talent from NA and on the International Stage.

I then want that President to select a Manager who can put together a roster, based on all inputs, that is effective year in and year out and goes into each year with the expectation of winning trophies.

I have no faith that either Mariner or Winter are that guy.

This is exactly how I feel. The president should also be using MLSE financial resources to hire the best possible youth coaches to develop players. There is no point in spending $20 million on an academy to have Jim Brennan coach there.

[T-boy]

If he was being misused by Winter then how did he score 8 goals in 10 games under him last season? I think Koeverman's recently goal scoring has very little to do with who is coaching him and more has to do with him rounding into form. If you listen to any of Koeverman's interviews from the past few weeks he even admits this himself and says he goes through good and poor streaks when it comes to scoring.

Agreed, but my argument was that a lot of other players are ALSO now performing a lot better now that Winter has left and Mariner is manager. One player can be an individual case, but a lot of players improving form is a pattern.

[Pookie]

not sure you should be including the CCL matches in your "AW was 3-2-2 in May" analysis. 2 leg playoffs are played differently than one off league games. and, FTR, a team doesn't get points in 2 leg playoffs..

Well, I'm not sure why anyone would discount them if you are trying to make a conclusion of improved play particularly when the results came against the same teams.

Played differently? Pretty sure that they didn't use 2 balls and the net result was to come away with more goals on aggregate than the other side over the time frame played.

I guess I'm to believe that PM's result against Montreal was different than AW's result against Montreal about a month ago. Makes complete sense.

[ag futbol]

Vancouver even plays 4-3-3 at times.

If Mariner is sticking with this system for the time being to really instill it before moving on to be more flexible in formation depending on the opponent, I'd be happier. I don't think that's the case though.
And that sort of brings us back to problem 1a with TFC: talent identification.

Edit: I was going to get into details but it was just too depressing. It really doesn't matter where you look on the field, they either have more talent (defense) or more depth. But they still suck balls when it counts *zing!*

[Pookie]

Agreed, but my argument was that a lot of other players are ALSO now performing a lot better now that Winter has left and Mariner is manager. One player can be an individual case, but a lot of players improving form is a pattern.

Which "a lot of players" ?

What was their issue before and what is their specific improvement under Mariner?

[Pookie]

And that sort of brings us back to problem 1a with TFC: talent identification.



+1 and none of that improves unless resources flow into solving that problem. That isn't PM's responsibility nor was it AWs.

[ag futbol]

+1 and none of that improves unless resources flow into solving that problem. That isn't PM's responsibility nor was it AWs.
Well ... yes and no. We really have no idea where talent evaluation starts / stops with this team. Remember neither AW nor PM spent the majority of their time training the team over the last 16 months or so. If we were fed accurate information, that was BDK's job. I'd really like to know a lot more about what's going on so we could get a clearer picture of what's wrong, but I'll say when it comes to the way we do business I believe the following:

1) We rely too much on central scouting - MLS still performs the scouting function for a lot of teams and from what I've gathered, TFC has used this to pick up more than a handful of players in the past. Sounds like a sure-fire way to be average IMO.

2) In the past we had some very poorly held believes about how the transfer market works - I remember more than a few quotes from certain TFC executives that South America was "too complicated", "12 year olds have agents", "non-standard agreements with teams", etc... Doesn't seem to be an issue for the rest of the league ... what gives?

3) We do a poor job of allocating our resources. We are the anti-moneyball team.

[joeyjones]

Played differently? Pretty sure that they didn't use 2 balls and the net result was to come away with more goals on aggregate than the other side over the time frame played.

I guess I'm to believe that PM's result against Montreal was different than AW's result against Montreal about a month ago. Makes complete sense.

the first leg vs Montreal was absolute horseshit soccer by TFC IMO, i was sick to my stomach after watching that....IIRC, the second leg, we toughed it out a man down to hang on 2-0 which showed a lot of heart, particularly from Torsten...last week, we beat MTL convincingly, 3-0...no difference i guess

[ag futbol]

the first leg vs Montreal was absolute horseshit soccer by TFC IMO, i was sick to my stomach after watching that....IIRC, the second leg, we toughed it out a man down to hang on 1-0 which showed a lot of heart, particularly from Torsten...last week, we beat MTL convincingly, 3-0...no difference i guess
To somewhat counter balance that point, they have seen injuries to their two starting CB's which has coincided with a slide in form. I think every result was a positive with the excception of the first leg at the big O

[v00d00daddy]

Agreed, but my argument was that a lot of other players are ALSO now performing a lot better now that Winter has left and Mariner is manager. One player can be an individual case, but a lot of players improving form is a pattern.

And there are also players who had been playing well (JDG, Soolsma) who don't even play anymore.

At the end of the day I think the biggest difference is the performance of Koevermans.

After all....a team that has decided to play a much simpler game defensively is still leaking goals, just like they were before. 8 goals against in last 5 games. (and that's with a clean sheet once)

Granted...they're also scoring a lot...thanks in large part to an in form Koevermans.

I'm happy with the results...but I was also happy with the results in the few games just before Mariner was promoted.

Time will tell if our new approach will lead to more wins...or if teams will easily figure it out and begin to rape us all over again.

Take a guess which one I see happening. Lol

Unless of course Koevermans scores a goal a game for the rest of the year. Lol

[Ajax TFC]

I want a President. Period.

I then want that President to make resources available to whomever he selects as a manager to be able to identify talent from NA and on the International Stage.

I then want that President to select a Manager who can put together a roster, based on all inputs, that is effective year in and year out and goes into each year with the expectation of winning trophies.

I have no faith that either Mariner or Winter are that guy. Mainly because I don't know if either has the structure that can support them.

For example, if Mariner is still dealing with infighting between BDK, TR, EC and who knows who else, then he stands little chance. If Mariner still has more scouts in the GTA than he has in all of North America then he stands little chance. If he has no money available to change that, he stands little chance. If Mariner is still under pressure from CSA-leaning types within and connected to the organization and TFC-Academy brochure writers to promote from within, he stands little chance. If he has to draw a 30 man roster and chooses to stock 1/3 of it with virtually un-untradeable assets given MLS Domestic Quota Rule, he stands little chance.

I'm less concerned with his desire to hoof it out than I am all of these BIG organizational issues which still exist regardless of the fact we beat the Impact again.

This is pretty much what I want as well. I would add that I want a president that for the most part determines the direction of the team and hires people who are all on the same page. he can put together the group of players (or hire a GM to do that) and then hire a coach who he thinks would play a style that fits the players that are there.

[T-boy]

And there are also players who had been playing well (JDG, Soolsma) who don't even play anymore.

At the end of the day I think the biggest difference is the performance of Koevermans.

After all....a team that has decided to play a much simpler game defensively is still leaking goals, just like they were before. 8 goals against in last 5 games. (and that's with a clean sheet once)

Granted...they're also scoring a lot...thanks in large part to an in form Koevermans.

I'm happy with the results...but I was also happy with the results in the few games just before Mariner was promoted.

Time will tell if our new approach will lead to more wins...or if teams will easily figure it out and begin to rape us all over again.

Take a guess which one I see happening. Lol

Unless of course Koevermans scores a goal a game for the rest of the year. Lol

I didn't think JDG was playing at all well earlier in the season, actually. And Soolsma has been injured and is just coming back into the fold again now. So they probably aren't the best examples of players who WERE playing well and now aren't. I'm not sure I could name a player who I think was playing well but is now playing poorly? Anybody got a good example of anyone they think is playing worse under Mariner?

[joeyjones]

As an aside, we couldn't make the game so caught it on TV. One person who seemed less than "enthusiastic" about Mariner at one point in the game was Koevermans who vocally expressed displeasure and was really trying to avoid him after being subbed.

FWIW, article about Mariner on sportnet.ca credited to the Canadian Press: "You can't say he's not involved in the game," said striker Danny Koevermans. "I think if you asked him he would rather get some cleats on and go on the pitch to be the 12th man.""He's a great coach to work with," he added

who knows when he was interviewed, but food for thought..

[Ajax TFC]

I didn't think JDG was playing at all well earlier in the season, actually. And Soolsma has been injured and is just coming back into the fold again now. So they probably aren't the best examples of players who WERE playing well and now aren't. I'm not sure I could name a player who I think was playing well but is now playing poorly? Anybody got a good example of anyone they think is playing worse under Mariner?
Avila hasn't been too effective so far under Mariner. Most of the time he gets bypassed and has to go to the wing to get the ball. His main strength is being able to give quick passes to open wide players or pass accurately with little time. Those abilities have been made pretty useless in Mariner's system

[Canary10]

I didn't think JDG was playing at all well earlier in the season, actually. And Soolsma has been injured and is just coming back into the fold again now. So they probably aren't the best examples of players who WERE playing well and now aren't. I'm not sure I could name a player who I think was playing well but is now playing poorly? Anybody got a good example of anyone they think is playing worse under Mariner?

I think Lambe was playing better under Winter. He's been pretty invisible over the last 5 games. Possibly Avila. (edited to add Ajax, I'm on the same page with you). I still don't think he's in the right position at the moment. I would say Plata, but of course he hasn't even played.

All in all, I don't think there's one player that can be singled out, other than maybe Koevermans. They're playing with more shape right now, not playing risky balls, and the direct tactics is yielding more goals. It's more of an overall team thing.

[T-boy]

I think Lambe was playing better under Winter. He's been pretty invisible over the last 5 games. Possibly Avila. (edited to add Ajax, I'm on the same page with you). I still don't think he's in the right position at the moment. I would say Plata, but of course he hasn't even played.

All in all, I don't think there's one player that can be singled out, other than maybe Koevermans. They're playing with more shape right now, not playing risky balls, and the direct tactics is yielding more goals. It's more of an overall team thing.

I can mostly agree with you about Lambe - although even under Winter he was a player who either did something special and disappeared (like score 2 goals and didn't do much else one game) or flitted in and out of games a bit. He's been the same under Mariner, and maybe a little more out than in. So, he's a good example, agreed.

Avila is playing a different roll under Mariner. He was more creator under Winter, but more workhorse under Mariner. I like him in both roles actually. He is less spectacular under Mariner, but I still think equally productive - just in a different way? Avila is one of my favourite player right now. I was really calling for him to be playing earlier in the season, especially when RJ and Silva didn't look u pto much. And since Avila has been playing regularly, he's looked a good player and his will to run and play is great to watch.

[Canary10]

I can mostly agree with you about Lambe - although even under Winter he was a player who either did something special and disappeared (like score 2 goals and didn't do much else one game) or flitted in and out of games a bit. He's been the same under Mariner, and maybe a little more out than in. So, he's a good example, agreed.

Avila is playing a different roll under Mariner. He was more creator under Winter, but more workhorse under Mariner. I like him in both roles actually. He is less spectacular under Mariner, but I still think equally productive - just in a different way? Avila is one of my favourite player right now. I was really calling for him to be playing earlier in the season, especially when RJ and Silva didn't look u pto much. And since Avila has been playing regularly, he's looked a good player and his will to run and play is great to watch.

Yeah, he's in a different role, no doubt. I'm not sure it suits him. Maybe playing "better" or "worse" isn't so much the question with him as playing different. Mariner is pushing the fullbacks up and playing long balls up to them that bypass the midfield. The stats show the midfield doesn't touch the ball that much. Morgan on the other hand, touches the ball more than the midfield, often in higher positions. Personally I think Avila is better involved by getting on the ball.

[BHTC Mike]

There are different ways to win in this league.


Aye but we're not talking about "this league" I'm talking about CCL, which is a different beast.
Okay, pop quiz then: which TFC coach is the only one to actually defeat a Mexican club? Here's a clue: he also lead TFC to an aggregate goals victory over two legs against arguably the best Central American team we've ever faced.

[Chris Wren]

He's gone. It's over. Move on.

If you aren't going to be happy unless Tom Anselmi is gone you just aren't going to be happy any time soon.

[Auzzy]

^ Who? Mariner's gone? Awesome! g:D

[Canary10]

He's gone. It's over. Move on.

If you aren't going to be happy unless Tom Anselmi is gone you just aren't going to be happy any time soon.

It's never too early to start thinking about who will replace Mariner. MLSE should be doing that right now behind the scenes. I'd hate to have to hire a manager in January again.

[ag futbol]

It's never too early to start thinking about who will replace Mariner. MLSE should be doing that right now behind the scenes. I'd hate to have to hire a manager in January again.
Nah man, my TFC tinfoil hat radar says we'll be steering ourselves towards only paying one manager salary at a time, and PM gets the full-time nod regardless of how the results are.

**ggooooooaaannn**

[ManUtd4ever]

It's never too early to start thinking about who will replace Mariner. MLSE should be doing that right now behind the scenes. I'd hate to have to hire a manager in January again.

Why should MLSE already be thinking of a contingency plan after 5 games?

What if Mariner has a successful run at the helm the rest of the season?

I think it would be far more prudent to give it another couple of months before making such an assessment.

[brad]

Why should MLSE already be thinking of a contingency plan after 5 games?

What if Mariner has a successful run at the helm the rest of the season?

I think it would be far more prudent to give it another couple of months before making such an assessment.

What is prudent, especially when undertaking a somewhat risky venture is to have a backup plan in place and ready to go so you aren't left scrambling.

If Mariner works out - great, he stays. If he doesn't - then we are ready to move forward, not ready to figure out how to move forward.

Are you telling us that if Mariner bombs, you would be okay with them waiting until the end of the season to figure out the replacement?

[Oldtimer]

Why is everyone comparing Mariner to Winter? We know Winter couldn't do the first team part of the job. Let's compare Mariner's performance with some of the better coaches:


Frank Yallop: WLWWW (San Jose)= 12 points
Ben Olsen: WWWLW (DC United)= 12 points (somewhere DeRo is smiling)
Robert Warzycha: WWDLW (Krew)= 9 points
Peter Vermes: WWDLL (Sporting KC) = 7 points
Jason Kreis: WWLLL (RSL) = 6 points
Jesse Marsch: WLWLL (L'impact) = 6 points
Mariner: LDDWD = 6 points

Out of these, only Kreis and Marsch have as bad a record as Mariner, and Kreis' record for the last 5 is far from typical for him (RSL are 10-2-6 for the season, for 32 points so far. RSL have gained points in 88.9% of their games!).
So excluding RSL, Mariner's record is as bad as a first year expansion team. That's hardly the improvement we need, and even a full year of Mariner at this clip would see TFC missing the playoffs in year 7.
So I'm not about to drink the Mariner Kool Aid quite yet, as much as some people seem to like traditional English kick-and-run and see it as an "improvement." It's better than Winter, but it's not good enough.

[T-boy]

Why is everyone comparing Mariner to Winter? We know Winter couldn't do the first team part of the job. Let's compare Mariner's performance with some of the better coaches:


Frank Yallop: WLWWW (San Jose)= 12 points
Ben Olsen: WWWLW (DC United)= 12 points (somewhere DeRo is smiling)
Robert Warzycha: WWDLW (Krew)= 9 points
Peter Vermes: WWDLL (Sporting KC) = 7 points
Jason Kreis: WWLLL (RSL) = 6 points
Jesse Marsch: WLWLL (L'impact) = 6 points
Mariner: LDDWD = 6 points

Out of these, only Kreis and Marsch have as bad a record as Mariner, and Kreis' record for the last 5 is far from typical for him (RSL are 10-2-6 for the season, for 32 points so far. RSL have gained points in 88.9% of their games!).
So excluding RSL, Mariner's record is as bad as a first year expansion team. That's hardly the improvement we need, and even a full year of Mariner at this clip would see TFC missing the playoffs in year 7.
So I'm not about to drink the Mariner Kool Aid quite yet, as much as some people seem to like traditional English kick-and-run and see it as an "improvement." It's better than Winter, but it's not good enough.

I don't think its useful to compare Mariner's "first 5 games" with the "last five games" of others coaches. How about actually comparing PM's first 5 with all the above coaches first five as well. How does he compare then?

[Pookie]

I don't think its useful to compare Mariner's "first 5 games" with the "last five games" of others coaches. How about actually comparing PM's first 5 with all the above coaches first five as well. How does he compare then?

Well, we know he rates exactly the same as Winter over his first 5. That's good or not good... I guess..?

[ManUtd4ever]

What is prudent, especially when undertaking a somewhat risky venture is to have a backup plan in place and ready to go so you aren't left scrambling.

If Mariner works out - great, he stays. If he doesn't - then we are ready to move forward, not ready to figure out how to move forward.

Are you telling us that if Mariner bombs, you would be okay with them waiting until the end of the season to figure out the replacement?

No, I'm saying that in a couple of months, the new ownership group will have a much clearer indication of whether or not Mariner is the right manager to lead this team moving forward. If he falters, they can initiate the search for his replacement prior to the end of the season.

[Ajax TFC]

Why should MLSE already be thinking of a contingency plan after 5 games?

What if Mariner has a successful run at the helm the rest of the season?

I think it would be far more prudent to give it another couple of months before making such an assessment.
How many teams in professional football gain success by handing the keys to the club to their first and only coaching candidate right away? I get that TFC had to get a replacement coach, but what they should have done is make Mariner the interim coach while they do a proper search. If Mariner proves himself in that time, then sign him to a permanent deal. I get that Mariner deserves a chance, but why are more people not pissed off that upper management just handed the full time job to the first guy they ran into instead of doing a proper search to give us the best coach available? Anselmi even said at the press conference that Mariner was the only person considered for the job

[brad]

No, I'm saying that in a couple of months, the new ownership group will have a much clearer indication of whether or not Mariner is the right manager to lead this team moving forward. If he falters, they can initiate the search for his replacement prior to the end of the season.

Not enough time IMHO. IF Mariner fails, we need to be ready to act sooner.