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denime
06-16-2012, 09:34 PM
Discuss

Initial B
06-16-2012, 09:36 PM
The players are going to take another 1/2 season to adjust to Mariner's new scheme, no mattter how much screaming at them he does. I'd love to be on the outside of the locker room to see if his voice carries as much as it did over the TV.

T-boy
06-16-2012, 09:36 PM
I actually thought we just played ok! TFC started SLOWLY, but second half could have easily scored 3 or 4 goals! Kansas hardly saw the ball for the majority of the second half!

I'm sure it will take a couple of games to get set into Mariner's style of play, but this was an ok start I thought. There is certainly no need to shit the bed due to this result. Avila was unlucky not to score and that goal could have changed the game just at the right time for TFC. I mean - how unlucky can you be hitting BOTH posts?!

Away at Kansas was NEVER going to be an easy game, so I'm not surprised at the result. But I'm happy that TFC got some posession in the second half and had quite a few chances on goal.

Pookie
06-16-2012, 09:37 PM
Can we make a rule that if anyone is going to come in and talk about how we were a goal post or two out of this game, can they please also cite the missed opportunities SKC had in the opening 20 mins? Seemed like there was about 1 every 2 mins.

ryan
06-16-2012, 09:37 PM
Champions league is a right off. We'll be thrashed 10-0 with this form vs Santos.

I'm just about done with TFC and MLS all together.

boban
06-16-2012, 09:37 PM
My preference was to keep Winter, stick to the plan for once, and give him the entire last year in his contract of 2013.

Now it's fire Anselmi, Cochrane, Beirne, and let the new guy set up a plan that he will hopefully stick to for 3 years. Including the coach and core of players he picks FOR FUCK SAKES!

Anselmi is an ass-clown. That's not Mariner's fault so he get's my support because there is no alternative in this regard. Must support the skipper.

This. Winter had basically 1 year after making changes to players he wanted.
Let's not forget Mariner was involved in this process - and the team looked far worse under him than Winter.
I thought Mariner said it would be a tweak here or there. Right now another overhaul is needed.

#SellTFC

69Chevy396
06-16-2012, 09:38 PM
MLSE could fire the entire coaching staff, replace them with a consortium of 5 of the worlds top managers and still lose as long as they continue to use the poorest collection of players in north america

maxpower
06-16-2012, 09:39 PM
That was our worst first half since Philly at home last year.

Alonso
06-16-2012, 09:39 PM
2nd half was better then the first for sure.

KC is a good team.

We should have had at least two goals.

The defence was shit.

We got some decent chances.

I sound like a broken record.

Furtado91
06-16-2012, 09:39 PM
Im Really starting to hate gamedays now. I for one thought she should have stuck with Winter until the end of the season, Instead of this trainwreck. He still puts on Duncefield even though hes sloppy, the team looks like shit. There isnt much quality, but for crying out loud, play your heart out at least, not this half assed approach. I don't know how much more i can take of this honestly. This place will always be a joke unless they clean the ENTIRE upper management. Otherwise just fold the team. Do the city of Toronto a favor and just fold it. stop running the city's name under the mud.

JamboAl
06-16-2012, 09:39 PM
This was such a letdown after watching Canada and Euro 2012. You know what is worse then anger? Apathy! I took off at half time to go for gelato and didn't even bother taping the 2nd half. I guess I made the right decision. How very sad.

T-boy
06-16-2012, 09:39 PM
I find it hilarious that the same people who gave Winter a season and a half, are only giving Mariner ONE game to judge him! Sure, Winter would have got a result in this one, yeah....right!

Auzzy
06-16-2012, 09:40 PM
Can we make a rule that if anyone is going to come in and talk about how we were a goal post or two out of this game, can they please also cite the missed opportunities SKC had in the opening 20 mins? Seemed like there was about 1 every 2 mins.

Exactamundo! If you want to talk about missed opportunities, than 8-2 in favour of KC would have been a fair result.

"Players dictate the formation." Mariner is going find us a formation that does not require a central defender.

T-boy
06-16-2012, 09:40 PM
This was such a letdown after watching Canada and Euro 2012. You know what is worse then anger? Apathy! I took off at half time to go for gelato and didn't even bother taping the 2nd half. I guess I made the right decision. How very sad.

you actually missed a good second half by TFC!

T-boy
06-16-2012, 09:41 PM
Exactamundo! If you want to talk about missed opportunities, than 8-2 in favour of KC would have been a fair result.

"Players dictate the formation." Mariner is going find us a formation that does not require a central defender.

Cann's injury didn't look good, so I think we will need a new one anyways!

Oldtimer
06-16-2012, 09:42 PM
I find it hilarious that the same people who gave Winter a season and a half, are only giving Mariner ONE game to judge him!

We said that we would do that before the game. We also explained why. I think you've been on the board...

69Chevy396
06-16-2012, 09:42 PM
Sorry, but you are delusional, the second half meant nothing once they gave up 2 goals.

Yohan
06-16-2012, 09:44 PM
i'll give benefit of doubt for now. clear that the team was getting used to new formation in first half, and playing against one of best teams in MLS, a loss was going to be likely result. once TFC switched to 4-4-2 diamond, things got better. unlucky to not to bury one of chances.
the chances were there, so offence isn't total shambles. defence, another story, esp on set pieces

for Houston game, i'd like to see this (and assuming Cann is out for a while)

--------Kocic
Hall-Eck-Henry-Morgan
--------JDG
---Avia----Frings
--------Silva
-Koevermans-Johnson

I'm going to give Mariner few more games before making a judgement

Auzzy
06-16-2012, 09:45 PM
Sorry, but you are delusional

Who? Anyone in particular? Honestly, I think we're all delusional, or at least were delusional at one time or another. Only way we could be following TFC and not yet have committed suicide.

T-boy
06-16-2012, 09:45 PM
We said that we would do that before the game. We also explained why. I think you've been on the board...

Yes but I totally disagree with what everybody is saying. You simply CANNOT judge Mariner as a head coach by his roll in the office! Yes, I KNOW he had "some" influence - but being head coach is totally different. As I keep saying - its like saying Di Matteo would be a crappy coach as Chelsea were doing so badly with his as assistant! And Di Matteo proved that is totally wrong!

denime
06-16-2012, 09:46 PM
I actually thought we just played ok! TFC started SLOWLY, but second half could have easily scored 3 or 4 goals! Kansas hardly saw the ball for the majority of the second half!

I'm sure it will take a couple of games to get set into Mariner's style of play, but this was an ok start I thought. There is certainly no need to shit the bed due to this result. Avila was unlucky not to score and that goal could have changed the goal just at the right time for TFC. I mean - how unlucky can you be hitting BOTH posts?!

Away at Kansas was NEVER going to be an easy game, so I'm not surprised at the result. But I'm happy that TFC got some posession in the second hald and had quite a few chances on goal.

Are you sure you watched TFC playing and not a replay form EURO12.

Possession, TFC and possession in tonight's game can not be in the same sentence.KC had 7fucking8% of possession in first 20 minutes of tonight's game.

Unlucky my ass,how many chances had KC in firts 15-20 minutes 3,4 just squeezed juts besides the posts,we were lucky that KC wasn't 4-0 in first 30 minutes today.

We are worst than we were 3 weeks ago,and it will not get any better this year and probably in near future.

TFC IS FUCKED AS LONG ANSELMI AND HIS PUPPETS ARE RUNNING THIS CLUB!!

ANSLEMI GTFO AND TAKE YOURS PUPPETS WITH YOU !

sashavukelich
06-16-2012, 09:46 PM
fml. TFC just finds new and new ways to disappoint me each and every week. Frings looks a shadow of who he was last year. Koev missed a break away (although he does look thinner THANKFULLY). 5 Seasons of non-sense....how much do i miss the days of John Carver.

69Chevy396
06-16-2012, 09:47 PM
meant for guy who said we played well in second half

T-boy
06-16-2012, 09:47 PM
Sorry, but you are delusional, the second half meant nothing once they gave up 2 goals.


Are you saying I am?

I thought we did ok tonight - hit the post a couple of times, took it to Kansas in the second half. As expected, it took a little while to get used to the new system, but after they did, TFC did alright tonight and could have easily scored a couple of the second half.

did you see the game differently to that?

T-boy
06-16-2012, 09:48 PM
meant for guy who said we played well in second half


did you even SEE the second half???? We DID play quite well in the second half! Kansas hardly saw the ball for about 30 minutes of it!

DoubleUp
06-16-2012, 09:48 PM
i'll give benefit of doubt for now. clear that the team was getting used to new formation in first half, and playing against one of best teams in MLS, a loss was going to be likely result. once TFC switched to 4-4-2 diamond, things got better. unlucky to not to bury one of chances.
the chances were there, so offence isn't total shambles. defence, another story, esp on set pieces

for Houston game, i'd like to see this (and assuming Cann is out for a while)

--------Kocic
Hall-Eck-Henry-Morgan
--------JDG
---Avia----Frings
--------Silva
-Koevermans-Johnson

I'm going to give Mariner few more games before making a judgement


switch avila on to the left and frings as the anchor not Jdg.

Auzzy
06-16-2012, 09:48 PM
I think we've had about 130 players in 5 1/2 years? Maybe we can make it to 160 by next year.

69Chevy396
06-16-2012, 09:49 PM
It would be funny if we turn on the German game and see Frings on the sidelines begging to be let back on the team

Pookie
06-16-2012, 09:49 PM
Did things get better in the 2nd.... relative statement because we needed 2 to draw and couldn't manage one... because our shape improved or because SKC was up 2-0 against the league's worst offensive teams and they have a mid-week game coming up on Wednesday against Seattle?

Either or, it's a loss and a loss is unacceptable. This is being hung on Anselmi's shoulders like every one of our miserable annual campaigns.

Again, I'm not advocating for firing Mariner and moving on to our 8th coach. I'm an advocate of clearing house with Anselmi and crew, establishing a new leader and letting him make the decision on Mariner.

Red CB Toronto
06-16-2012, 09:49 PM
We can not turn our backs on this team in this time of needing support, I will be disgusted with anyone who drops their season tickets strictly based on their on the on-field product. I understand it if is an economic, health, family or health situation but turning your back strictly based on the fact this team is losing is not an option.

The loss tonight in KC was hard to take, but we need to stay strong, keep our heads up and come out loud and proud next Saturday and show the lads we are still behind them regardless of what happens in Houston.

T-boy
06-16-2012, 09:49 PM
I clearly watch a different game to everybody else!

Gazza
06-16-2012, 09:49 PM
Is this the team that Roogsy had in mind?

denime
06-16-2012, 09:50 PM
this. Winter had basically 1 year after making changes to players he wanted.
Let's not forget mariner was involved in this process - and the team looked far worse under him than winter.
I thought mariner said it would be a tweak here or there. Right now another overhaul is needed.

#selltfc

THANKS -THIS 100%

Anslemi Out!!

Rene Kingsriver
06-16-2012, 09:51 PM
I find it hilarious that the same people who gave Winter a season and a half, are only giving Mariner ONE game to judge him! Sure, Winter would have got a result in this one, yeah....right!

Seriously you could take this thread and the in-game one reverse the posters names and bingo it would be like the one after DC away. Me, I'm consistent, a coach doesn't get results he goes Winter should've gone (a lot sooner than he did btw) and Mariner should go too if he has a similar record

Auzzy
06-16-2012, 09:51 PM
Is this the team that Roogsy had in mind?

Let's leave the most dearly departed out of it, they can't defend themselves.

Oldtimer
06-16-2012, 09:52 PM
did you even SEE the second half???? We DID play quite well in the second half! Kansas hardly saw the ball for about 30 minutes of it!

"Quite well" is quite the overstatement. There was some improvement. "Somewhat less crappy" I'll accept.

Pookie
06-16-2012, 09:52 PM
did you even SEE the second half???? We DID play quite well in the second half! Kansas hardly saw the ball for about 30 minutes of it!

Officially, we held the ball for 39.4% of the game.

Officially, SKC got 3 points.

Alonso
06-16-2012, 09:53 PM
I find it hilarious that the same people who gave Winter a season and a half, are only giving Mariner ONE game to judge him! Sure, Winter would have got a result in this one, yeah....right!

Don't know who you're referring to here. Generalizations are all too easy, and disparaging the members of this board with frivolous generalizations as to our character and our intentions and lumping it all into "the same people" is divisive and lazy.

Personally I will give Mariner the 3 years that Winter never got. Because honouring your word and the contracts you give is just as important for management as it is for players.

Auzzy
06-16-2012, 09:53 PM
KC was conserving energy in the 2nd half, and looking to counter on occasion. They still had some decent goal-scoring chances in the 2nd half.

Torontotonto
06-16-2012, 09:54 PM
Another coaching change and playing against a quality side.
What can you expect.
Thought Silva had a good game and bad luck.
Real change has to start at the top.

M = Making
L = Losing
S = Seem
E = Easy

it's easy as 123

A - Anselmi
B - Bernie
C - Cochrane

TFC and you and me

69Chevy396
06-16-2012, 09:55 PM
They didnt need to. That is what a 2-0 score will do for you every time. Haven"t u noticed in the past how easily opposing clubs score on us minutes after we score a goal? It is called pacing and having confidence against teams that have nothing

T-boy
06-16-2012, 09:55 PM
I saw an improvement through the game for TFC and THAT is the most important thing in this game. I never expect a win, or even a draw in this one. Kansas are VERY difficult to beat, especially at home. But I wanted to see an improvement during the game, and I did. I may be easily pleased, but I am pleased at the improvement seen through the game.

Anybody who thought we would go out and win this was is crazy as that was never going to happen. At this stage, with a new coach and new formation and system, we just needed to see improvement within the team itself. And I think we did.

v00d00daddy
06-16-2012, 09:56 PM
you actually missed a good second half by TFC!

1. Second half means little to me because we were already down two goals. Had we managed to score one I'm quite sure KC would have turned it back up a notch and continued to hand is our ass.

2. The only time we had an iota of possession and dictated the play were a few flashes where the midfield actually touched the ball after Silva came in. Besides that we still had defenders hoofing the ball upfield to nobody.

3. You don't think we can judge Mariner on one game but his touch line interview was very telling. He's lost.

4. Playing guys like Johnson, Lambe, Eckersley and Dunfields pretty much says "we dont want the ball"

5. Avilas halftime interview was also very telling. "we just need to keep the ball"

I totally agree with him but regretfully, that is an imposibility with the player selection combined with the formation and tactics.

So.......

Lol

DOMIN8R
06-16-2012, 09:56 PM
New stadium + new fan energy = 12th man advantage.
Perhaps, that's why KC pressed so well. They made it hard, to their credit. They are a good team.
I hate Jacob Peterson.
Will we ever see officiating improve past 75% accuracy in the MLS? Or, preferably, in my life time.

I was one of those who was firmly in the keep Winter for at least 2 seasons camp. Perhaps because I am bias against Anselmi - I don't get a good feeling about Mariner. Although, I like the man. I'll try and keep an open mind.

We still can't finish.
We still can't keep shape in the back line.
Will this change soon under Mariner?
Let's wait and see.

denime
06-16-2012, 09:56 PM
Yes but I totally disagree with what everybody is saying. You simply CANNOT judge Mariner as a head coach by his roll in the office! Yes, I KNOW he had "some" influence - but being head coach is totally different. As I keep saying - its like saying Di Matteo would be a crappy coach as Chelsea were doing so badly with his as assistant! And Di Matteo proved that is totally wrong!

Did Di Mateo involved DIRECTLY in Chelsea scouting and players signings,no.

Mariner was for last 18 months and that's why he is equally responsible for 1-10 as Winter.

and if you listen Mariners interview after the game he is delusional as you are he actually said this was fantastic game,for who KC maybe but definitely no TFC.

Red CB Toronto
06-16-2012, 09:57 PM
I am just disappointed with the loss, I want this team to succeed and win so much.

T-boy
06-16-2012, 09:57 PM
Don't know who you're referring to here. Generalizations are all too easy, and disparaging the members of this board with frivolous generalizations as to our character and our intentions and lumping it all into "the same people" is divisive and lazy.

Personally I will give Mariner the 3 years that Winter never got. Because honouring your word and the contracts you give is just as important for management as it is for players.

I'm not sure giving a coach 3 years worth of losing would ever be a good idea! In soccer, in ANY league in the world, a coach is never given 3 years to turn around a team. 3 years is WAY too long!

If you want me to go through the posts in this one and the game thread and pull out the individual posters names who have been saying that they will "never see a game again" due to this one game, I will do that. If you've read through the threads, you will see several posters saying this.

T-boy
06-16-2012, 10:00 PM
Ok I will acquiesce....we played shit. I guess you all want me to HATE this team!

Sorry for being optimistic and seeing some good things in the second half of this game. Clearly I had my rose tinted glasses on today.

sometimes coming on this forum after the game makes me want to kill myself a little bit. You guys take any enthusiasm I have and destroy it!

Couchy81
06-16-2012, 10:00 PM
You call it unlucky, I call it a bad shot. Hitting a post. Hitting your own player. You need to aim the fucking ball into the net. Period.

The only scoring chance was Koevermans on a breakaway that the goalie saved.

Another bad game, bottom line. Doesn't matter who is coaching, if Mariner had started the season I'm sure we'd be on a roll now as well. It's just more mismanagement from the top affecting our season as usual.

Abou Sky
06-16-2012, 10:03 PM
That was possibly the worst performance by a team I have ever seen.

TFC looked like kids out there getting schooled up and down the pitch by SKC

Wow

Pookie
06-16-2012, 10:03 PM
I saw an improvement through the game for TFC and THAT is the most important thing in this game. I never expect a win, or even a draw in this one. Kansas are VERY difficult to beat, especially at home. But I wanted to see an improvement during the game, and I did. I may be easily pleased, but I am pleased at the improvement seen through the game.

Anybody who thought we would go out and win this was is crazy as that was never going to happen. At this stage, with a new coach and new formation and system, we just needed to see improvement within the team itself. And I think we did.

Dude, I don't mean to rain on your parade. This is a supporters website after all.

The point here is that by extending all this fluffy stuff about "new systems" or "time to gel" or looking for "improvement" you simply take the focus off of Tom Anselmi and the mess that he has created.

Do I expect TFC to win? Hell no. They have a roster management issue. From mis-managing the North American Quota Rule, to the youngest starting 11 in the game (at the 3rd most expensive) they are clearly not capable of competing with other teams in the MLS.

Do I deserve a well run organization in exchange for my season ticket money? Hell yes.

Anselmi claims to be hands off and if true, we clearly need somebody who is more hands on to run this thing.

69Chevy396
06-16-2012, 10:04 PM
I'm not sure giving a coach 3 years worth of losing would ever be a good idea! In soccer, in ANY league in the world, a coach is never given 3 years to turn around a team. 3 years is WAY too long!

If you want me to go through the posts in this one and the game thread and pull out the individual posters names who have been saying that they will "never see a game again" due to this one game, I will do that. If you've read through the threads, you will see several posters saying this.
Sadly, if this season of utter garbage continues mlse will be giving complementary tickets soon to make bmo look full again. By the fall the only fans at bmo will be the few hundred supporters

Abou Sky
06-16-2012, 10:05 PM
Ok I will acquiesce....we played shit. I guess you all want me to HATE this team!

Sorry for being optimistic and seeing some good things in the second half of this game. Clearly I had my rose tinted glasses on today.

sometimes coming on this forum after the game makes me want to kill myself a little bit. You guys take any enthusiasm I have and destroy it!

Normally I am with you, don't like coming on here after games much because if I really feel like TFC played well I don't want it taken apart, but that was painful to watch.

volunteer
06-16-2012, 10:06 PM
omg

fire.paul.mariner.now

(too soon?)

Shakes McQueen
06-16-2012, 10:06 PM
As I said in the game thread - I'm not convinced this team is going to be any better under Mariner. This wasn't a calculated move to give this team the best chance to win - it was a panicky reshuffling after the abject failure Winter had for the first ten games of the seson. Mariner probably should have gone as well, for his part in it, but he didn't.

But regardless of the reasons, and regardless of what I think of the people who made the decision, he's our manager now, and I'm going to give him a reasonable period of time to prove himself.

If others want to fan their tailfeathers and strut around telling people how they knew his stewardship would be a failure, then that's your prerogative, and it vaguely reminds me of someone I used to know. Mariner is trying to do what he can in a terrible situation, with fools above him. I have sympathy for that.

- Scott

69Chevy396
06-16-2012, 10:07 PM
Ok I will acquiesce....we played shit. I guess you all want me to HATE this team!

Sorry for being optimistic and seeing some good things in the second half of this game. Clearly I had my rose tinted glasses on today.

sometimes coming on this forum after the game makes me want to kill myself a little bit. You guys take any enthusiasm I have and destroy it!
Supporting this club has become as pleasant as passing a kidney stone once per week

Dkolish3
06-16-2012, 10:07 PM
Yes but I totally disagree with what everybody is saying. You simply CANNOT judge Mariner as a head coach by his roll in the office! Yes, I KNOW he had "some" influence - but being head coach is totally different. As I keep saying - its like saying Di Matteo would be a crappy coach as Chelsea were doing so badly with his as assistant! And Di Matteo proved that is totally wrong!

To me personally hiring a person who back-stabbed the old boss doesn't inspire loyalty it was quite clear from various articles that Mariner and Winter did not agree on most personnel decisions and that Mariner thought that he could do a better job, so in my opinion he better make drastic improvements and quickly or he should be fired.

DaBandit
06-16-2012, 10:09 PM
We can not turn our backs on this team in this time of needing support, I will be disgusted with anyone who drops their season tickets strictly based on their on the on-field product. I understand it if is an economic, health, family or health situation but turning your back strictly based on the fact this team is losing is not an option.

The loss tonight in KC was hard to take, but we need to stay strong, keep our heads up and come out loud and proud next Saturday and show the lads we are still behind them regardless of what happens in Houston.

What would be great to see is every single fan in the stadium loudly and proudly chant 'FIRE ANSELMi' for the entire 90 mins, minus the minute that's reserved for Danny D.. No reactions to any parts of the game, just stay the course for 90 mins, send the message load and proud that letting this dipshit run this team is no longer acceptable..

Auzzy
06-16-2012, 10:10 PM
Again, it is colossally stupid to start a huge change in philosophy & direction, hire a coach & assistant coach who believe in a 4-3-3, possession-based & attacking style, "long term plan and vision" etc etc bullshit, and also try to sign & fire & sign a ton of players to hopefully play that style -- but at the same time hire a glorified scout & shadow coach who doesn't believe in any of that shit.


Then you dump the first guys, AND their formation & philosophy after 1 1/2 year, and install the shadow coach. And then it's stupid for that guy to take over at mid-season and bring in a huge change in formation when you know you have a very difficult stretch of games coming up with no time to practice. I'm afraid that Mariner will turn out to be about as thick-headed as Winter, just in a different direction -- "that's the way I roll, either you like it or you don't."

I think this team will play very poorly at least for a couple of months. If there are some positive surprises, great.

Personally, I was somewhere in middle: more patient with Winter than many others, but I had essentially given up on him a few months ago. However, I really didn't want Anselmi & Co. to be the ones to decide to fire Winter, or the ones to decide who would replace him. I have absolutely no confidence that we are now headed in the right direction.

Thomas
06-16-2012, 10:12 PM
This team looked worse than most of the line ups that Winter has fielded....but I will give Mariner some time to work on things. Why wasn't Soolsma playing, is he injured? For once, I thought that Silva had a pretty good game.

v00d00daddy
06-16-2012, 10:13 PM
As I said in the game thread - I'm not convinced this team is going to be any better under Mariner. This wasn't a calculated move to give this team the best chance to win - it was a panicky reshuffling after the abject failure Winter had for the first ten games of the seson. Mariner probably should have gone as well, for his part in it, but he didn't.

But regardless of the reasons, and regardless of what I think of the people who made the decision, he's our manager now, and I'm going to give him a reasonable period of time to prove himself.

If others want to fan their tailfeathers and strut around telling people how they knew his stewardship would be a failure, then that's your prerogative, and it vaguely reminds me of someone I used to know. Mariner is trying to do what he can in a terrible situation, with fools above him. I have sympathy for that.

- Scott

It has little to do with "strutting feathers" and a lot more to do with recognizing that Mariner was a part of the abject failure that cost Winter his job. You've admitted as much yourself.

Some may even believe that Mariner contributed to the 1-9 both by his player input and the likely notion that he didn't buy in to what they were trying to in the first place. Now he's benefitted from that and you call my dislike of the whole situation and lack of sympathy for Mariner "strutting feathers"?

Sorry but I disagree wholeheartedly.

Mariner is worse than Winter because he helped get him fired and took the fucking guys job. Yes...that's a sign of a completely dysfunctional front office but I also see it as a total lack of character on Mariner's part.

denime
06-16-2012, 10:14 PM
Ok I will acquiesce....we played shit. I guess you all want me to HATE this team!

Sorry for being optimistic and seeing some good things in the second half of this game. Clearly I had my rose tinted glasses on today.

sometimes coming on this forum after the game makes me want to kill myself a little bit. You guys take any enthusiasm I have and destroy it!

Man ,nobody wants yo to hate this team,we are crazy in love with TFC,but you should take your rose tinted glasses and call spade a spade.

Tonight game was one of the worst game to watch,long ball after long ball and hope something might happens,this game was bad carbon copy of Prekiball.Under Preki at least our defense was functioning and we were creating same amount of chances with hoof balls as we did tonight.

The fact that Mariner was hired after 18 months sitting in FO and doing fuck all,because players he signed were never able to play any other formation than 442 and now it looks to me they can't even play that one aether,but we are suppose to give him time,fine he will get his time and we will get some points,but this hoof ball is not watchable for my standards.

if they keep booting the ball I will stop going to the games with my son,he does not deserve to watch this at his young age,he might get wrong idea what soccer is all about.

Pookie
06-16-2012, 10:17 PM
As I said in the game thread - I'm not convinced this team is going to be any better under Mariner. This wasn't a calculated move to give this team the best chance to win - it was a panicky reshuffling after the abject failure Winter had for the first ten games of the seson. Mariner probably should have gone as well, for his part in it, but he didn't.

But regardless of the reasons, and regardless of what I think of the people who made the decision, he's our manager now, and I'm going to give him a reasonable period of time to prove himself.

If others want to fan their tailfeathers and strut around telling people how they knew his stewardship would be a failure, then that's your prerogative, and it vaguely reminds me of someone I used to know. Mariner is trying to do what he can in a terrible situation, with fools above him. I have sympathy for that.

- Scott

Shakes, I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with expecting results provided the focus doesn't become "Firing Mariner" and overlooking Tom Anselmi.

To allot the new coach time to makes things works clearly takes pressure off the one that most of us feel needs to be removed from this team in order for it to improve.

I am of the opinion that keeping the focus on the results, collective results through 5+ seasons, is what we need to be doing. Not granting slack or leeway or removing pressure.

You can have this focus on the immediate results without the need to fire Mariner. Anselmi becomes the focus. Replace him and then the new guy can evaluate whether Mariner is the one to coach.

Auzzy
06-16-2012, 10:17 PM
This was some funny shit from ag futbol:


2013 SSH promotion: have you ever wanted to coach TFC? Well now you can, each pair of season tickets now includes the opportunity to coach the reds for one half of football! Managers will subsequently be fired at half-time and replaced with a new manager who "has a system"-> "doesn't have a system" -> "is a players coach" - > "disclipinarian"

TFC! TFC! TFC!

I'm going to tweet something about that.

denime
06-16-2012, 10:18 PM
This team looked worse than most of the line ups that Winter has fielded....but I will give Mariner some time to work on things. Why wasn't Soolsma playing, is he injured? For once, I thought that Silva had a pretty good game.

Soolsma is too skilled for Mariners likes,he has to work on his long ball passes if he want to get back in starting 11. ;)

TFC Cityboy
06-16-2012, 10:19 PM
1st half was fucking brutal. No shape at the back and were lucky not to be 4 down after 15 minutes.
No shape, no clue, basic football errors lie Johnson taking the ball off Lambe on a breakaway despite being called off by Reggie as he was 3 days offside.

For the first time, I gave up- we went outside at HT to have a drink on the patio , and didn't feel the need to come back in toil the 75th.

Twittershere seemed to think we were decent 2nd half but from what I saw we were poor.

#fireanselmi

jazzy
06-16-2012, 10:19 PM
I find it hilarious that the same people who gave Winter a season and a half, are only giving Mariner ONE game to judge him! Sure, Winter would have got a result in this one, yeah....right!

what exactly has changed besides the coaches?.... he now has the players he wants and felt Winter should use? ..his players don't forget... and he had to stab Winter in the back..to still be here..or he never liked him and plotted this from the start, ..it's the same team and the same owners.........i support the players,....but the rest have lost me.....watch and learn,...not even sure I want OR deserve another 3 or so years of promises, let's rebuild everybody,...just keep paying these high prices and in a couple of ears we might be average ....btw montreal 4 seattle 1....they have been in the league how long?......i am so sick of being at the bottom and the laughing stock of the league , full of excuses

Shakes McQueen
06-16-2012, 10:20 PM
It has little to do with "strutting feathers" and a lot more to do with recognizing that Mariner was a part of the abject failure that cost Winter his job. You've admitted as much yourself.

Some may even believe that Mariner contributed to the 1-9 both by his player input and the likely notion that he didn't buy in to what they were trying to in the first place. Now he's benefitted from that and you call my dislike of the whole situation and lack of sympathy for Mariner "strutting feathers"?

Sorry but I disagree wholeheartedly.

Mariner is worse than Winter because he helped get him fired and took the fucking guys job. Yes...that's a sign of a completely dysfunctional front office but I also see it as a total lack of character on Mariner's part.

Assistants routinely get shuffled into the head job on an interim basis after the coach gets fired. In virtually every sport. If you don't have access to the guy you want, or don't know who you want, the interim and easy thing to do is hand the reins to an assistant. I don't see how it reflects on Mariners character at all. The same thing has happened at our own club before, with Daso and Cummins taking over the head job on an interim basis.

In the absence of any evidence that Mariner intentionally tried to torpedo Winter's regime, I'm not going to assume that, either. He was hired to do a job, and I will assume he's innocent until proven guilty, of doing that job in good faith.

But yes, I agree he should have gone. Not for intentionally doing anything, but for his failure along with the rest of them.

- Scott

DaBandit
06-16-2012, 10:24 PM
Again, it is colossally stupid to start a huge change in philosophy & direction, hire a coach & assistant coach who believe in a 4-3-3, possession-based & attacking style, "long term plan and vision" etc etc bullshit, and also try to sign & fire & sign a ton of players to hopefully play that style -- but at the same time hire a glorified scout & shadow coach who doesn't believe in any of that shit.


Then you dump the first guys, AND their formation & philosophy after 1 1/2 year, and install the shadow coach. And then it's stupid for that guy to take over at mid-season and bring in a huge change in formation when you know you have a very difficult stretch of games coming up with no time to practice. I'm afraid that Mariner will turn out to be about as thick-headed as Winter, just in a different direction -- "that's the way I roll, either you like it or you don't."

I think this team will play very poorly at least for a couple of months. If there are some positive surprises, great.

Personally, I was somewhere in middle: more patient with Winter than many others, but I had essentially given up on him a few months ago. However, I really didn't want Anselmi & Co. to be the ones to decide to fire Winter, or the ones to decide who would replace him. I have absolutely no confidence that we are now headed in the right direction.

This is a great post.. Your right none of this makes any sense..

Shakes McQueen
06-16-2012, 10:24 PM
Shakes, I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with expecting results provided the focus doesn't become "Firing Mariner" and overlooking Tom Anselmi.

To allot the new coach time to makes things works clearly takes pressure off the one that most of us feel needs to be removed from this team in order for it to improve.

I am of the opinion that keeping the focus on the results, collective results through 5+ seasons, is what we need to be doing. Not granting slack or leeway or removing pressure.

You can have this focus on the immediate results without the need to fire Mariner. Anselmi becomes the focus. Replace him and then the new guy can evaluate whether Mariner is the one to coach.

As I've said all along, I consider any opinion I have of Mariner to be completely separate from what I think of Anselmi et al. I think we should be pushing full bore to get Anselmi, and the rest of them dismissed right now.

- Scott

Auzzy
06-16-2012, 10:24 PM
Assistants routinely get shuffled into the head job on an interim basis after the coach gets fired. In virtually every sport. If you don't have access to the guy you want, or don't know who you want, the interim and easy thing to do is hand the reins to an assistant. I don't see how it reflects on Mariners character at all. The same thing has happened at our own club before, with Daso and Cummins taking over the head job on an interim basis.

In the absence of any evidence that Mariner intentionally tried to torpedo Winter's regime, I'm not going to assume that, either. He was hired to do a job, and I will assume he's innocent until proven guilty, of doing that job in good faith.

But yes, I agree he should have gone. Not for intentionally doing anything, but for his failure along with the rest of them.

- Scott

That's why it's so unbelievably stupid to hire an "assistant" (actually glorified scout) who massively disagrees with the basis system and philosophy of the head coach.

bigredone
06-16-2012, 10:25 PM
i'll give benefit of doubt for now. clear that the team was getting used to new formation in first half, and playing against one of best teams in MLS, a loss was going to be likely result. once TFC switched to 4-4-2 diamond, things got better. unlucky to not to bury one of chances.
the chances were there, so offence isn't total shambles. defence, another story, esp on set pieces

for Houston game, i'd like to see this (and assuming Cann is out for a while)

--------Kocic
Hall-Eck-Henry-Morgan
--------JDG
---Avia----Frings
--------Silva
-Koevermans-Johnson

I'm going to give Mariner few more games before making a judgement

I cannot believe this wasn't the line-up. Luckily I was visiting Pa (Happy early Fathers day to all Fathers) and missed it. Did I read they played Dunfield??? WTF
Bless you guys for the updates cuz I am glad to not watch this one. sob sob

Alonso
06-16-2012, 10:26 PM
As I said in the game thread - I'm not convinced this team is going to be any better under Mariner. This wasn't a calculated move to give this team the best chance to win - it was a panicky reshuffling after the abject failure Winter had for the first ten games of the seson. Mariner probably should have gone as well, for his part in it, but he didn't.

But regardless of the reasons, and regardless of what I think of the people who made the decision, he's our manager now, and I'm going to give him a reasonable period of time to prove himself.

If others want to fan their tailfeathers and strut around telling people how they knew his stewardship would be a failure, then that's your prerogative, and it vaguely reminds me of someone I used to know. Mariner is trying to do what he can in a terrible situation, with fools above him. I have sympathy for that.

- Scott

Ditto

denime
06-16-2012, 10:27 PM
Assistants routinely get shuffled into the head job on an interim basis after the coach gets fired. In virtually every sport. If you don't have access to the guy you want, or don't know who you want, the interim and easy thing to do is hand the reins to an assistant. I don't see how it reflects on Mariners character at all. The same thing has happened at our own club before, with Daso and Cummins taking over the head job on an interim basis.

In the absence of any evidence that Mariner intentionally tried to torpedo Winter's regime, I'm not going to assume that, either. He was hired to do a job, and I will assume he's innocent until proven guilty, of doing that job in good faith.

But yes, I agree he should have gone. Not for intentionally doing anything, but for his failure along with the rest of them.

- Scott

In that case DeKlark or god forbid Brennan should be coaches and not players development manager.

I have info from players agent that Mariner and KOCKhrane screw up few players signings that Winter wanted to see in our team,and instead we got players like Aceval,Lambe ....

DOMIN8R
06-16-2012, 10:28 PM
IMO 442 cannot be effectivelly played with the roster we have. IF it is decided that this new/next/decision/direction/change/necessary direction/new course (all terms that MLSE have used to denote firing/appointing new coaching staff) Tommy Boy thinks we should move towards, we will need wholesale player change to play that style properly. And, I guess, we will have to change the academy system to reflect this new direction.

Let's face it - it's hard not to be cynical.

Shakes McQueen
06-16-2012, 10:28 PM
That's why it's so unbelievably stupid to hire an "assistant" (actually glorified scout) who massively disagrees with the basis system and philosophy of the head coach.

There's truth to this, but that falls on Anselmi's head. He's the one who keeps bringing these people together, and watching them burn.

- Scott

Greatest Ripoff
06-16-2012, 10:29 PM
Mariner is worse than Winter because he helped get him fired and took the fucking guys job. Yes...that's a sign of a completely dysfunctional front office but I also see it as a total lack of character on Mariner's part.

Couldn't agree more. I feel like this team has taken a huge step back.

Tonight they had no width and were easily broken up in the midfield. When the KC back four had the ball Toronto did nothing to pressure them and allowed KC to bring the ball into Toronto's end. And when Toronto did have the ball they were very wasteful in possession. They either made a poor pass or kicked it long to no one. They made it way to easy for KC tonight. The players looked lost or maybe just not up to the task.

How the hell did Dunfield play 90 minutes? Why was Hall starting at left back?

v00d00daddy
06-16-2012, 10:30 PM
Assistants routinely get shuffled into the head job on an interim basis after the coach gets fired. In virtually every sport. If you don't have access to the guy you want, or don't know who you want, the interim and easy thing to do is hand the reins to an assistant. I don't see how it reflects on Mariners character at all. The same thing has happened at our own club before, with Daso and Cummins taking over the head job on an interim basis.

In the absence of any evidence that Mariner intentionally tried to torpedo Winter's regime, I'm not going to assume that, either. He was hired to do a job, and I will assume he's innocent until proven guilty, of doing that job in good faith.

But yes, I agree he should have gone. Not for intentionally doing anything, but for his failure along with the rest of them.

- Scott


I see what you mean about the interim coach thing. But as for the question of "intention" I'd have to say that Mariner was hired to compliment the vision and staff that TFC decided to go with. If he doesn't like a possession based or 4-3-3 team than he shouldn't have taken the job to begin with. And if he thought the team should be building in a different way he should have left the club long ago. Instead he decided to lay in wait. He did NOTHING to help this team build towards their goal. Did he bring in one player to compliment the 4-3-3?

That's pretty deliberate and intentional to me. Short of players or former staff members coming out and telling us about the nature of the disagreements between the "MLS pragmatists" and the new staff we will never know for sure whether he was deliberately an asshole, incompetent at player acquisition or just arrogant in believing his vision was more important than the one that the whole fucking club was redesigned around.

For me, whichever it is, makes him look like a douche.

Not to mention that I find his brand of football completely disgusting in every way. LOL

denime
06-16-2012, 10:32 PM
There's truth to this, but that falls on Anselmi's head. He's the one who keeps bringing these people together, and watching them burn.

- Scott

Agree and that's why we should concentrate our anger on ANSELMI and get him OUT asap.

Greatest Ripoff
06-16-2012, 10:34 PM
Assistants routinely get shuffled into the head job on an interim basis after the coach gets fired.

Thing is, Mariner was never mentioned as the interim coach or was he an assistant coach before hand. He is the Steve Kean of TFC

.

Thomas
06-16-2012, 10:36 PM
That sucks. Soolsma is one of our best players. What the hell was Dunny doing there starting, with JDG on the bench?


Soolsma is too skilled for Mariners likes,he has to work on his long ball passes if he want to get back in starting 11. ;)

Shakes McQueen
06-16-2012, 10:36 PM
Agree and that's why we should concentrate our anger on ANSELMI and get him OUT asap.

I agree completely. Like I said several days ago in the "grand announcement" thread, I think with the new owners coming in, that we have a small window of opportunity to make our complaints known, and get them attended to (as some board reshuffling is probably going to happen anyway).

I think all of the SGs should be gearing up to make our voices heard later this summer.

- Scott

TFC07
06-16-2012, 10:38 PM
In that case DeKlark or god forbid Brennan should be coaches and not players development manager.

I have info from players agent that Mariner and KOCKhrane screw up few players signings that Winter wanted to see in our team,and instead we got players like Aceval,Lambe ....

I wonder who players Winter and DeKlerk wanted to bring instead of Lambe, Aceval etc.?

denime
06-16-2012, 10:41 PM
I wonder who players Winter and DeKlerk wanted to bring instead of Lambe, Aceval etc.?

Don't remember the names,but as far i remember that was in off season and one of the reasons why we did not sign players until feb/mar.

flamehawk
06-16-2012, 10:41 PM
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/06/16/paul-mariner-june-16-2012

...sigh

TFCREDNWHITE
06-16-2012, 10:41 PM
Seriously, FUCK them(FO) I was happy that we went with an attractive attacking style of football. I was good with giving Winter at least 2yrs, and then these stupid assholes pull the rug OUT! Fuck them!

4-3-3 attack all the way! I hope my beloved reds lose every fucking game from here on in!

denime
06-16-2012, 10:43 PM
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/06/16/paul-mariner-june-16-2012

...sigh

"game was sensational" :facepalm: are we sure he has water in his bottle and not Vodka.

DOMIN8R
06-16-2012, 10:50 PM
Wow. Media training or manipulation in full effect. Paul was only missing the pom poms. Were the Spin Doctors playing half-time?

ManUtd4ever
06-16-2012, 11:01 PM
TFC came out flat and disorganized after a lengthy layoff and a coaching change, and they were dominated for the opening 30 minutes.

As the game wore on though, I thought TFC slowly started to take control of the match, particularly in the second half after Mariner switched to a 4-3-1-2.

Based on the number of quality scoring chances generated by both sides throughout 90 minutes, I thought the match was fairly even. Unfortunately, TFC couldn't capitalize on several golden opportunities to get back in the game.

I guess I am in the minority, but I saw signs of encouragement on the pitch tonight, and I am curious to see how our club performs once they become more acclimated with Mariner's tactical approach over the next few games.

Beach_Red
06-16-2012, 11:02 PM
Dude, I don't mean to rain on your parade. This is a supporters website after all.

The point here is that by extending all this fluffy stuff about "new systems" or "time to gel" or looking for "improvement" you simply take the focus off of Tom Anselmi and the mess that he has created.

Do I expect TFC to win? Hell no. They have a roster management issue. From mis-managing the North American Quota Rule, to the youngest starting 11 in the game (at the 3rd most expensive) they are clearly not capable of competing with other teams in the MLS.

Do I deserve a well run organization in exchange for my season ticket money? Hell yes.

Anselmi claims to be hands off and if true, we clearly need somebody who is more hands on to run this thing.

This pretty much says it. From the day this team started they've never hired anyone who has any idea how to build an MLS roster.

Soccerpro
06-16-2012, 11:04 PM
I drove 20 hours south to KC to watch the game in person. I was right on the half way line. Here's what killed TFC tonight:

1. We're still terrible at marking set pieces. KC's 2nd goal was pathetic.
2. Ecks still just boots it every time, Hall is a better choice at right back.
3. Eric Avila wasn't marking his man out wide, at all, ever, because Eric Avila doesn't know how to play left wing.
4. We had no attacking CM. You can't have two CM's that are neutral/defensive. You need one attacking CM. Frings is not that.
5. We have no speed threat up front to play off of Koev. Johnson is a left winger. You need to be able to stretch the opposition D.
6. Every other team pressures TFC high, but we always sit back and let teams come at us. Why?

I explained those things to my friend on the way to the game with me (He'd never really seen TFC before) Afterwards he said wow, you were right.

Henry was outstanding tonight. Hall was good, Morgan looked good when he came on. I would honestly cut every single other player on the team (besides Kocic and Roberts). Yes, even Frings.

Mariner got it totally wrong with his starting lineup. He should know better, everyone else does.

bigredone
06-16-2012, 11:08 PM
Hey, bring on Santos. Hitting the post twice in one shot, now that is something to be proud of.

Ajax TFC
06-16-2012, 11:14 PM
Why I'm not willing to give Mariner the time that Winter needed:
Mariner was given hired to "tweak a few things" to turn our under performing team into a winning team. He was not hired to reverse the direction that Winter had us going in. If his 4-4-2 (2-2-2-2-2) kick ball system is really what suits the players (that he brought in) then they should at least be playing better than they were under Winter. Winter needed time to implement his system because it's rather complicated (apparently). Mariner's system is as brainless as they come. You don't need lots of time to dumb down a system. His style was boring as fuck to watch.

Suds
06-16-2012, 11:15 PM
After a lot of beer and thought I feel better. Not about TFC though. Just in general. :)

TFCRegina
06-16-2012, 11:37 PM
Tis a pity

tiberius
06-16-2012, 11:59 PM
I saw an improvement through the game for TFC and THAT is the most important thing in this game. ...
... At this stage, with a new coach and new formation and system, we just needed to see improvement within the team itself. And I think we did.

Quit making excuses for a 1-10-0 team - this Mary Sunshine babble is nauseating :puke::puke:

tiberius
06-17-2012, 12:02 AM
did you even SEE the second half???? We DID play quite well in the second half! Kansas hardly saw the ball for about 30 minutes of it!

As I recall we were down 2-0 in the first half - at the end of the second half WE WERE STILL DOWN 2-0 - quit sounding like an MLSE intern and face reality!

lerxst
06-17-2012, 12:13 AM
This was such a letdown after watching Canada and Euro 2012. You know what is worse then anger? Apathy! I took off at half time to go for gelato and didn't even bother taping the 2nd half. I guess I made the right decision. How very sad.

Using "then" instead of "than"?

Jeff s
06-17-2012, 12:20 AM
My biggest concern right now was the benching of Morgan and DeGuz for Dunfield and Ecks. Even Winter showed more common sense than this. It really seems like he's playing them because their "friends".

Everyone keeps saying we need to find CB's. Heck I'm hoping for a RB. Ecks and Hall don't do it for me. Both players are poor.
Avila needs to be on the bench. The guy is non existant 80% of the time. Silva took more shots and created more chances in his short time than what Avila managed to do in the past 3 games.

Soolsma needs to start over Lambe as well imo.

ryan
06-17-2012, 12:23 AM
Silva is still young and was inconsistent earlier in the year. I wouldn't claim he'll be that way night in and night out just yet.

West220Side
06-17-2012, 12:28 AM
We can not turn our backs on this team in this time of needing support, I will be disgusted with anyone who drops their season tickets strictly based on their on the on-field product. I understand it if is an economic, health, family or health situation but turning your back strictly based on the fact this team is losing is not an option.

The loss tonight in KC was hard to take, but we need to stay strong, keep our heads up and come out loud and proud next Saturday and show the lads we are still behind them regardless of what happens in Houston.

Excellent. Perfect. Right. On. Target.
Our Reds take on Houston Wednesday night, boys.

Jeff s
06-17-2012, 12:29 AM
Silva is still young and was inconsistent earlier in the year. I wouldn't claim he'll be that way night in and night out just yet.Wasn't really saying that he should start, but I would pick him over Avila tbh. I rather play a inconsistent kid over a ghost (avila)

Shakes McQueen
06-17-2012, 12:40 AM
As I recall we were down 2-0 in the first half - at the end of the second half WE WERE STILL DOWN 2-0 - quit sounding like an MLSE intern and face reality!

Express your opinions without resorting to name calling, please.

- Scott

Ajax TFC
06-17-2012, 12:47 AM
Wasn't really saying that he should start, but I would pick him over Avila tbh. I rather play a inconsistent kid over a ghost (avila)
Avila gets thrown out on the wing half the time where he isn't nearly as good. Silva wwas brought on and played in the middle. You can't compare those two performances.

Couchy81
06-17-2012, 01:53 AM
Express your opinions without resorting to name calling, please.

- Scott

MLSE intern - the new Toronto insult :)

Shakes McQueen
06-17-2012, 03:11 AM
MLSE intern - the new Toronto insult :)

When it's wielded as a veiled accusation of being an MLSE sycophant, yes.

Says a lot about the regard Toronto sports fans have for the owner of most of their teams, though.

- Scott

JamboAl
06-17-2012, 07:10 AM
Using "then" instead of "than"?

I stand corrected. And your comments about the game are...

Oldtimer
06-17-2012, 07:22 AM
That was possibly the worst performance by a team I have ever seen.

TFC looked like kids out there getting schooled up and down the pitch by SKC

Wow

TFC actually looked worse in it's first 4 games as an expansion team, with Mo as coach. However, this is pretty close to the bottom.




Says a lot about the regard Toronto sports fans have for the owner of most of their teams, though.

- Scott

ha-ha. Call me closed minded, call me delusional, call me out to lunch, but don't call me an ML$E Intern!!!!! :lol:

OgtheDim
06-17-2012, 07:59 AM
Does anybody know if Rogers/Bell are watching their future properties? They have to be working on a plan of some sort when they take over...unless the Christmas tree builder is pulling the wool over their eyes and says all is well with every single bit of it.

denime
06-17-2012, 08:02 AM
Using "then" instead of "than"?

If you have nothing to contribute to post game discussion,don't post.

rowjimi
06-17-2012, 08:06 AM
My expectations for this game was what we got. It was chaotic and disorganized. I could not expect much more given the turmoil of the last couple of weeks, the adjustments to be made and the players wrapping their heads around another change. I was not in favour of replacing Winter but 1 - 9 may dicatate some changes. My biggest disappointment came through the coach. His player selection and his rants on the sideline make me nervous. I will give him some more games but the last thing we need is a lunatic a game days.

fiji_blue
06-17-2012, 08:07 AM
MLSE fold the team.... MLS bring in a new competent ownership PLEASE!!!!

TorontoGooner
06-17-2012, 08:09 AM
We're so shit it's unbelievable.

Saying we're unlucky is clutching at straws. You make your own luck. It's just an excuse the club have made up to cover the glaringly obvious. We're shit. I'm a sucker for continuing to go.

*Cue the "we're not shit, just poorly managed" excuses.

Brooker
06-17-2012, 08:09 AM
I do like the revisionism... The fact that some people think we never had games like that under Winter is kinda shocking.

It was a dreadful game but under all the circumstances, I don't see why it's such a big deal. KC are 6-1 at home. You could see this result coming a mile away whether it was Winter or Mariner.

If it was up to me, any member of management from top to bottom that a TFC supporter could recognize, I'd say fire them.

cochrdoc
06-17-2012, 08:12 AM
How many goals has this team given up on corner kicks the the last few seasons.It is hard to follow this team when other teams seem to be able to turn things around in one or two seasons.Our goals against and for show you why we have the results we get.Even Montreal has twice has many goals has we do and seem to have a much better defence with a whole new line-up.

cmonyoureds
06-17-2012, 09:00 AM
Did Di Mateo involved DIRECTLY in Chelsea scouting and players signings,no.

Mariner was for last 18 months and that's why he is equally responsible for 1-10 as Winter.

and if you listen Mariners interview after the game he is delusional as you are he actually said this was fantastic game,for who KC maybe but definitely no TFC.

THIS!!!!
This is already a Mariner team. In my books he gets less time than Winter did to improve the team. He's already 18 months in. I will be calling for his head by season's end if we don't do better than 50% of points available.

cmonyoureds
06-17-2012, 09:02 AM
Does anybody know if Rogers/Bell are watching their future properties? They have to be working on a plan of some sort when they take over...unless the Christmas tree builder is pulling the wool over their eyes and says all is well with every single bit of it.

I think you just wrote the script for next years ticket renewal process.......

ManUtd4ever
06-17-2012, 09:11 AM
THIS!!!!
This is already a Mariner team. In my books he gets less time than Winter did to improve the team. He's already 18 months in. I will be calling for his head by season's end if we don't do better than 50% of points available.

Fair enough. Unfortunately, many have already judged Mariner after 90 minutes.

It has to be said that despite playing the first game for a new coach after a lengthy break and adapting to a new tactical approach, TFC created more quality scoring chances last night than they typically have under Winter in the past against a top MLS club in an intimidating environment.

If Avila, Koevermans, Silva, and Johnson had converted any of their point blank opportunities, the tone of this thread would be entirely different.

v00d00daddy
06-17-2012, 09:28 AM
Fair enough. Unfortunately, many have already judged Mariner after 90 minutes.

It has to be said that despite playing the first game for a new coach after a lengthy break and adapting to a new tactical approach, TFC created more quality scoring chances last night than they typically have under Winter in the past against a top MLS club in an intimidating environment.

If Avila, Koevermans, Silva, and Johnson had converted any of their point blank opportunities, the tone of this thread would be entirely different.

Your post begs the question:

Did you watch TFC v RSL at Rio Tinto earlier this season?

ryan
06-17-2012, 09:37 AM
If Avila, Koevermans, Silva, and Johnson had converted any of their point blank opportunities, the tone of this thread would be entirely different.



You could basically take this quote and apply it to every post match thread of the season.

lerxst
06-17-2012, 09:52 AM
I stand corrected. And your comments about the game are...

I think this "apathy" problem you speak of, is really just your own. Last time I checked TFC was the only pro club playing at the highest level of competition in both the US and Canada. So if you're looking to cheer for someone else in this region, you're fucked. Why would you want to though? Are they having a terrible regular season? Sure. Has this club had the most tumultuous 6 years in MLS history? Possibly. Should you bail when the shit hits the fan? Nah. That's not how support works. You pick your colours and you stick with them for life or you're nothing and loyalty means fuck all to you. Having said that, get mad. That's part of supporting as well. Just don't play that "apathy" card. I you do, I'm sure Hearts will appreciate your continued support.

lerxst
06-17-2012, 09:58 AM
If you have nothing to contribute to post game discussion,don't post.


I did. It was a grammar lesson.

denime
06-17-2012, 10:01 AM
Fair enough. Unfortunately, many have already judged Mariner after 90 minutes.

It has to be said that despite playing the first game for a new coach after a lengthy break and adapting to a new tactical approach, TFC created more quality scoring chances last night than they typically have under Winter in the past against a top MLS club in an intimidating environment.

If Avila, Koevermans, Silva, and Johnson had converted any of their point blank opportunities, the tone of this thread would be entirely different.


I can think on one game ,game vs RSL where we created more chances by playing soccer,most of the chances we created last night were hail marry in to penalty box and hope for the best.

You can not expect from us to give him some extra time,when 10 days ago he was talking about small tweaking here and there and now total overhaul of system.
TFC in May was 3-2-2,that showed me they turned the corner and finally start playing better,Winter got fired and now have to give a guy who back stabbed him,changed formation instead of tweaking it,playing ball hoofers instead of skill players extra time,I don't think so.

Mariner was/is part of 1-10 disaster in 2012 and if we do not have at least 50% improvement in next 14 MLS games,he should be shown door together with his sugar daddy Tommy.

spe18
06-17-2012, 10:20 AM
Are you sure you watched TFC playing and not a replay form EURO12.

Possession, TFC and possession in tonight's game can not be in the same sentence.KC had 7fucking8% of possession in first 20 minutes of tonight's game.

Unlucky my ass,how many chances had KC in firts 15-20 minutes 3,4 just squeezed juts besides the posts,we were lucky that KC wasn't 4-0 in first 30 minutes today.

We are worst than we were 3 weeks ago,and it will not get any better this year and probably in near future.

TFC IS FUCKED AS LONG ANSELMI AND HIS PUPPETS ARE RUNNING THIS CLUB!!

ANSLEMI GTFO AND TAKE YOURS PUPPETS WITH YOU !

My only 2 questions would be:

a) When does the ownership take effect at MLSE?

b) When the new ownership takes over at MLSE, are there any plans to replace who runs Toronto FC?

Pinkie
06-17-2012, 10:23 AM
what a terrible game by a terrible team. but then again with KC being in pretty awesome form this season, this was always going to be a loss.

also Real Sports is the shittiest place to watch a TFC game. We got told by the manager no less that since TFC is so terrible the patrons at Real Sports were more interrested by the US Open Cup golf thing. It's pretty pathetic that an MLSE owned bar won't show an MLSE owned team broadcast on an MLSE owned channel.

KGH
06-17-2012, 10:30 AM
My only 2 questions would be:

a) When does the ownership take effect at MLSE?

b) When the new ownership takes over at MLSE, are there any plans to replace who runs Toronto FC?

A) I believe I read sept/oct

B) don't hold your breath. The MLSE organization has bigger issues than tfc. Rogers and bell bought the stake in Mlse for access to content. Each have their own sportsnet work that needs programming. And the programming they care about is the leafs first and then the raptors. Period. If anyone thinks for a moment that tfc issues will make their "give a shit" list for the first little they're delusional.

tfc2008
06-17-2012, 10:33 AM
I actually thought we just played ok! TFC started SLOWLY, but second half could have easily scored 3 or 4 goals! Kansas hardly saw the ball for the majority of the second half!

I'm sure it will take a couple of games to get set into Mariner's style of play, but this was an ok start I thought. There is certainly no need to shit the bed due to this result. Avila was unlucky not to score and that goal could have changed the game just at the right time for TFC. I mean - how unlucky can you be hitting BOTH posts?!

Away at Kansas was NEVER going to be an easy game, so I'm not surprised at the result. But I'm happy that TFC got some posession in the second half and had quite a few chances on goal.


Take a couple of games haha untill the end, was better that everyone had patient and let Aron do wat he was doing.

SoccMan
06-17-2012, 10:34 AM
Hey " Pinkie" let me get this right you were at the Real Sports Bar and you asked them to put the TFC game on and they would not, wow. Did they put the game on on any of the many TV screens they have there? If an MLSE owned bar does not care about a team they own and don't care about promoting their own team then why should we care. This kind of thing wants me to hate this company even more, what a joke.

Pigfynn
06-17-2012, 10:37 AM
Last night, for the first time since TFC came into existence I just totally forgot they were even playing.

I have to stress that I have never forgotten TFC was playing...ever.

I have missed games (although very rarely) due to events and family functions, but I have never just forgot they were on.

I did that last night and then realized an hour after the game had ended.

The worst part was that when I heard the result I was actually relieved that I didn't have to suffer through it as I'm sure I would have.

I felt good that I had avoided the "pain" of watching a team that I love more than any team I have ever loved.

My question is....Who's fault is this? Who has let it come to this? This club had everything it needed to be a success

How the fuck did things get this bad? and who can fix it?

Just really fed up and tired of reading the same things on here for 6 years

Pinkie
06-17-2012, 10:40 AM
Hey " Pinkie" let me get this right you were at the Real Sports Bar and you asked them to put the TFC game on and they would not, wow. Did they put the game on on any of the many TV screens they have there? If an MLSE owned bar does not care about a team they own and don't care about promoting their own team then why should we care. This kind of thing wants me to hate this company even more, what a joke.

knowing that there were no Leafs, Raptors, Marlies or Jays game happening last night we asked the hostess if the game was going to be on the big screen (which really is the only reason to go watch any sport at Real Sports) we were told definitely. we asked our waitress as well and she said definitely. When came time for kick off we could see the game on the tiny screens on the side but when we complained and asked for the game to be put on the big screen and were told it wasn't going to happen - the manager told us that yeah, TFC isn't good and no one really wants to see them. When we then asked for our bills right away and bitched because really its pathetic, he recanted and said he'd show it in another room for us-to which we said no. Went to Hoops down the street and they put on the game for us.

lots of words to say - Real Sports is shit, and I'm never going there again for a TFC game.

SoccMan
06-17-2012, 10:41 AM
Both goals scored by SKC was a pathetic display by the trio of Henry, Cann and the much beloved Ekersley, just have a look at that first SKC goal and see how all three of these dummies are at fault on that goal, classic example on why this team has been so bad from day one back in 2007 and continues to be crap in 2012 it's goals like this one!

tfcleeds
06-17-2012, 11:11 AM
knowing that there were no Leafs, Raptors, Marlies or Jays game happening last night we asked the hostess if the game was going to be on the big screen (which really is the only reason to go watch any sport at Real Sports) we were told definitely. we asked our waitress as well and she said definitely. When came time for kick off we could see the game on the tiny screens on the side but when we complained and asked for the game to be put on the big screen and were told it wasn't going to happen - the manager told us that yeah, TFC isn't good and no one really wants to see them. When we then asked for our bills right away and bitched because really its pathetic, he recanted and said he'd show it in another room for us-to which we said no. Went to Hoops down the street and they put on the game for us.

lots of words to say - Real Sports is shit, and I'm never going there again for a TFC game.

They'll be lucky if they ever get my business again, for anything, let alone TFC. Especially after the way I was treated last time I went.

CoachGT
06-17-2012, 11:15 AM
Just watched the first half again, then came online to watch the interviews with Mariner and Dunfield. Dunfield gave our defence a new name that will probably stick for the year - the "SUICIDE DEFENCE". Not sure if that was directed at the players or the feeling that watching it gives the fans. Cann is not good enough. Henry is not good enough - yet.

KC had at least 5 outstanding chances before they scored. And a couple were just poorly executed (probably because they didn't think the ball was going to arrive where it did - the element of surprise worked against them). Avila's chance was outstanding and there, it is one of the few instances where I can honestly believe the phrase "bad luck" could be used. After KC went up 2-0, that changed the game and they could afford to take their foot off the gas. I'm not of the belief that TFC played great after that, just that KC relaxed a bit. Had TFC scored, I think we would have seen more of what we saw in the first 20 minutes from KC.

I'm very disappointed following this game. While I understand the need to adjust, the message post game was pride in the work ethic. I'm not sure that there was ever any dispute, except for a couple of games and maybe for a player or two, about the work ethic under Winter. Discussion on twitter from the media types was along the liones of "give Mariner a chance to rebuild". Wasn't he involved in the building of this team? Wasn't the discussion about "tweaks", not a complete rebuild?

Add to that the discussion about RealSports! So an MLSE-owned bar doesn't consider soccer to be a real sport, instead they put golf on? I can safely say I will not return to RealSports anytime soon (I actually have gone there with clients), TFC game or anything else!

Greatest Ripoff
06-17-2012, 11:15 AM
Both goals scored by SKC was a pathetic display by the trio of Henry, Cann and the much beloved Ekersley, just have a look at that first SKC goal and see how all three of these dummies are at fault on that goal, classic example on why this team has been so bad from day one back in 2007 and continues to be crap in 2012 it's goals like this one!

On the first goal shouldn't have let the cross happen in the first place.

CoachGT
06-17-2012, 11:18 AM
One other comment. On twitter, asif posted that at least Petersen didn't have a good game. Well, he threw in the cross for the first goal, had an identical one a couple of minutes before that, and threw the ball in when it just missed the post. In the first 25 minutes, he was on fire. But the good point that MLSE's blogger can post is he didn't have a great game?

ag futbol
06-17-2012, 11:46 AM
KC had at least 5 outstanding chances before they scored. And a couple were just poorly executed (probably because they didn't think the ball was going to arrive where it did - the element of surprise worked against them). Avila's chance was outstanding and there, it is one of the few instances where I can honestly believe the phrase "bad luck" could be used. After KC went up 2-0, that changed the game and they could afford to take their foot off the gas. I'm not of the belief that TFC played great after that, just that KC relaxed a bit. Had TFC scored, I think we would have seen more of what we saw in the first 20 minutes from KC.

Agreed, I've made points like this continuously about TFC. People often get tunnel vision and say "well we looked good at this time" etc... but it often fails to take into account what the other team is doing and what their motivation is. We'd often look good attacking because other teams WANTED us to attack so we could get out of position so they could burn us on the counter.

In the end, TFC is a terrible team and they do what terrible teams do, which is squander opportunity.

Canary10
06-17-2012, 11:50 AM
I only saw the first half and it was one of the worst halves of football I've seen from this team. Lifeless. No ideas. No creativity. No skill. No passion. No pride. But at least the second half was better!

I am still baffled by playing 4-4-2. Avila doesn't work as a wide midfielder. There's no place for Plata in this formation. Not a good use of the players we actually have.

Cashcleaner
06-17-2012, 12:27 PM
knowing that there were no Leafs, Raptors, Marlies or Jays game happening last night we asked the hostess if the game was going to be on the big screen (which really is the only reason to go watch any sport at Real Sports) we were told definitely. we asked our waitress as well and she said definitely. When came time for kick off we could see the game on the tiny screens on the side but when we complained and asked for the game to be put on the big screen and were told it wasn't going to happen - the manager told us that yeah, TFC isn't good and no one really wants to see them. When we then asked for our bills right away and bitched because really its pathetic, he recanted and said he'd show it in another room for us-to which we said no. Went to Hoops down the street and they put on the game for us.

lots of words to say - Real Sports is shit, and I'm never going there again for a TFC game.

This isn't directed at you, Pinkie, but are we really surprised that Real Sports is turning out to be a shit place to watch any sport or team which isn't de rigueur at the moment? Your story basically says it all. TFC is good and no-one wants to watch them, so the bar isn't showing the match. The fact that both entities are owned and operated by the same parent corporation means NOTHING to these people. There is no such thing as loyalty or allegiance in MLSE's playbook.

TFC USA
06-17-2012, 12:27 PM
Damn, just when Winter had something going by beating the giants of the Union and inching closer to a 25 game winning streak, Mariner ruins it all by losing with this elite collection of talent on a club just one player away from contending.

These results shouldn't shock anyone. We are the worst team in MLS, and by a measurable distance. Just be glad Houston shouldn't dominate us that badly and that we're back home next Saturday.

Canary10
06-17-2012, 12:35 PM
Damn, just when Winter had something going by beating the giants of the Union and inching closer to a 25 game winning streak, Mariner ruins it all by losing with this elite collection of talent on a club just one player away from contending.

These results shouldn't shock anyone. We are the worst team in MLS, and by a measurable distance. Just be glad Houston shouldn't dominate us that badly and that we're back home next Saturday.


No one should be surprised at the result, but the fact that we lost with complete disinterest should worry people.

Pookie
06-17-2012, 12:40 PM
what a terrible game by a terrible team. but then again with KC being in pretty awesome form this season, this was always going to be a loss.



This is true based on our roster mismanagement, we don't have the players to compete. That said, why do we accept this?

TFC outspends SKC by millions. Approximately $3.5M to be exact. In MLS terms, that's huge. On paper, we should have the 3rd best roster in the league.

This would be like Yankees fans losing to Tampa and saying oh well. What can you do? They have a good team?

No, I'm sorry. We outspend them... with our Season Ticket money... and should expect... no, demand... results.

And all this talk about Avila converting making this a different story. Sure. But if SKC converted their plethora of chances in the first 30, we'd be looking at a 6-0 scoreline before Avila rings it off the woodwork.

TFC USA
06-17-2012, 12:40 PM
We also lost several game this season quite handily with complete interest.

What should worry people is not just the players not looking arsed to do anything, but how bad this team is. I think that this board gets way too high on a couple of wins because we've been so shit that any little bit of success is something we could "build on", and we haven't done that since Carver was in charge.

What worries me the most is whether or not being well on course for the worst record in MLS history will kill off any interest in DPs wanting to sign with us or any other top talent.

69Chevy396
06-17-2012, 12:42 PM
The pros and cons of Winter and the new guy are interesting, but isn't it time to make some trades while we still have a few marketable players on the team? What is the point of keeping 3 DP on a 1-10 club? What could we get for Frings, JDG or Koevermans? None of these players will be around when/if this team ever starts playing like a pro club, might as well use them as fodder. If you can trade DeRo, you can trade anybody, so might as well take a stab at it cause this club is CSL quality right now.

Pookie
06-17-2012, 12:42 PM
^ and the Anselmi show will chase away any interest from any legitimate managers given the way that Winter was handled and the "support" he got from those in management.

TFC USA
06-17-2012, 12:43 PM
This is true based on our roster mismanagement, we don't have the players to compete. That said, why do we accept this?

Is it possible that Torontonian sports fans just accept things as they are? I can't speak for you guys but it seems a possibility to me. Look at all the sports teams in Toronto who haven't won shit for a minimum of two decades. I do think a losing culture breeds low expectations and easier placation of fans for any minor success.

sully
06-17-2012, 12:44 PM
I hope MLSE are planning to reduce next season's tickets by 50% to 70% if they believe in the long term at all.

jloome
06-17-2012, 12:52 PM
Damn, just when Winter had something going by beating the giants of the Union and inching closer to a 25 game winning streak, Mariner ruins it all by losing with this elite collection of talent on a club just one player away from contending.

These results shouldn't shock anyone. We are the worst team in MLS, and by a measurable distance. Just be glad Houston shouldn't dominate us that badly and that we're back home next Saturday.

While I agree it's unrealistic for people to remember Winter, a losing coach, as some sort of tactical genius, it is equally unrealistic to dismiss how much more competitive his team was than the shit we saw yesterday, which was awful. Awful.

Winter's team battled RSL in Salt Lake to within one minute of a 2-2 draw, and had just won two games. When he was fired, we probably WEREN'T the worst team in the league anymore, as anyone who's watched Philly or L.A. coudl attest. We weren't competitive, and I get that, and your point is valid.

But to not see yesterday as a step backwards seems short-sighted. It was dreadful.

I don't think Winter was the answer, long-term, as he couldn't motivate, and we need a coach who is the whole package. But I see nothing from Mariner that suggests he'll be better.

Canary10
06-17-2012, 12:59 PM
We also lost several game this season quite handily with complete interest.

What should worry people is not just the players not looking arsed to do anything, but how bad this team is. I think that this board gets way too high on a couple of wins because we've been so shit that any little bit of success is something we could "build on", and we haven't done that since Carver was in charge.

What worries me the most is whether or not being well on course for the worst record in MLS history will kill off any interest in DPs wanting to sign with us or any other top talent.

I'm ok with them losing to a good team if they show some fight and pride. Like jloome said, they did that against RSL. And Santos. Last night was dreadful.

Pookie
06-17-2012, 01:00 PM
Is it possible that Torontonian sports fans just accept things as they are? I can't speak for you guys but it seems a possibility to me. Look at all the sports teams in Toronto who haven't won shit for a minimum of two decades. I do think a losing culture breeds low expectations and easier placation of fans for any minor success.

Honestly, when it comes to soccer I think too many are wrapped up in the flag... or at least the spin that comes from MLSE about the benefits of local development.

I put out an opinion that we have too many Canadian players on our roster to compete in this North American league. Specifically, I felt that because of MLS quota rules which requires 3 Canadian players, it was a mistake... from a competitive perspective... to not require Canadian players 4-9 to be the best at their position. Let a Dunfield prove that he is the best available in North American for that roster slot. Same with Cann or Henry or JDG. Earn the spot.

Vancouver and Montreal have 4 and 3 and at most, 1 of those 7 play. TFC have 9. Of those, 4-5 are regular starters or at least receive significant minutes (Morgan, Cann, JDG, Henry/Dunfield). The best Canadian on the pitch last night played for SKC (Bunbury).

They also had 15 Americans. We have 7 and maybe 1 or 2 are regular starters (Johnson and take your pick of Avila/Hall/Silva). It seems ridiculously stupid to not seek players from the better talent pool when MLS rules allow you to do so. Further,the Canadian slots are largely untradeable since US teams count Canadians as Internationals.

That means that to improve this team via trade we are essentially limiting our assets to our US players (Avila, Johnson, Emory, Hall, Harden, Maund and Silva). RJ, aside, think that is enough to get folks excited?

But if you offer this view, you end up flirting with the idea that you are anti-Canadian and trying to blame a group of players that we are partial too. It's not personal as far as I'm concerned. How can someone suggest that developing Canadian players, given this terrific Academy (sarcasm) we have heard so much about? (look into the actual Academy model and you'll see why I am less then enthusiastic about this as the main route for player acquisition).

TFC is not the development team for the Men's National Team. We are competing in a North American league...well on paper we are because any roster we've assembled over the last 5+ seasons really hasn't been that competitive.

jloome
06-17-2012, 01:09 PM
Honestly, when it comes to soccer I think too many are wrapped up in the flag... or at least the spin that comes from MLSE about the benefits of local development.

I put out an opinion that we have too many Canadian players on our roster to compete in this North American league. Specifically, I felt that because of MLS quota rules which requires 3 Canadian players, it was a mistake... from a competitive perspective... to not require Canadian players 4-9 to be the best at their position. Let a Dunfield prove that he is the best available in North American for that roster slot. Same with Cann or Henry or JDG. Earn the spot.

Vancouver and Montreal have 4 and 3 and at most, 1 of those 7 play. TFC have 9. Of those, 4-5 are regular starters or at least receive significant minutes (Morgan, Cann, JDG, Henry/Dunfield). The best Canadian on the pitch last night played for SKC (Bunbury).

They also had 15 Americans. We have 7 and maybe 1 or 2 are regular starters (Johnson and take your pick of Avila/Hall/Silva). It seems ridiculously stupid to not seek players from the better talent pool when MLS rules allow you to do so. Further,the Canadian slots are largely untradeable since US teams count Canadians as Internationals.

That means that to improve this team via trade we are essentially limiting our assets to our US players (Avila, Johnson, Emory, Hall, Harden, Maund and Silva). RJ, aside, think that is enough to get folks excited?

But if you offer this view, you end up flirting with the idea that you are anti-Canadian and trying to blame a group of players that we are partial too. It's not personal as far as I'm concerned. How can someone suggest that developing Canadian players, given this terrific Academy (sarcasm) we have heard so much about? (look into the actual Academy model and you'll see why I am less then enthusiastic about this as the main route for player acquisition).

TFC is not the development team for the Men's National Team. We are competing in a North American league...well on paper we are because any roster we've assembled over the last 5+ seasons really hasn't been that competitive.

I would say we've taken a long-view approach that makes the most sense corporately: develop from within, so that development costs are lower due to proximity, then maximize potential later resale value due to the low initial development cost.

I mean, I hate to be cynical, but it's business to these guys. They already make a few million -- minimum, after the books are cooked -- a year on the team; if they can add three or four player sales of $2-5M each over a 15-year period? Hoot mon, they've just doubled the team's relative share value.

That's what we're dealing with. In Seattle, they're so popular it has literally taken cult/belief-based overtones, in part because of a front office that cared about footie so much, they gave the fans a say. Are they making as much money as TFC? Probably, maybe more. No one says life has to be all risk, but without a little conflict, there are no new ideas, and no advancement.

Welcome to a team of guaranteed 5.5% annual returns over a long period, and no advancement on the pitch.

I will say, however, that if they keep the hands off from here on in and leave Mariner alone, he's got the knowledge and background to put something winning together. I simply don't expect it to happen. They'll probably axe his ass if we're not winning most games by this time next year.

JamboAl
06-17-2012, 01:19 PM
I think this "apathy" problem you speak of, is really just your own. Last time I checked TFC was the only pro club playing at the highest level of competition in both the US and Canada. So if you're looking to cheer for someone else in this region, you're fucked. Why would you want to though? Are they having a terrible regular season? Sure. Has this club had the most tumultuous 6 years in MLS history? Possibly. Should you bail when the shit hits the fan? Nah. That's not how support works. You pick your colours and you stick with them for life or you're nothing and loyalty means fuck all to you. Having said that, get mad. That's part of supporting as well. Just don't play that "apathy" card. I you do, I'm sure Hearts will appreciate your continued support.

You make some good points and appreciate your enthusiasm...too bad about your condescending attitude. But please forgive me if last night, going out for gelato was potentially more fulfilling than having to endure something like the first half again. And let me say this, please do not drag me into what being a supporter really means.

And by the way, I think you forgot an "f" in your last sentence about the club I have supported since the 1970s.

TFC Cityboy
06-17-2012, 01:19 PM
I can't fookin wait for this year's Town Hall meetings.

Richard
06-17-2012, 01:21 PM
Its funny how i listen to some individuals say Winter was long-term and Mariner is not. We have the 3rd highest payroll equal to the worst team in the league. This should get everybody in managment and thier pet dog fired for all i care. TFC was short term under Winter as well, its just we percieve the formation he used would be long term but really would any of these player be around 2 years from now except for our Acedemy kids?

If f i dont see significant change after Bell/Rogers come in i think im pretty much done with this team, say what you will but after 6 years of shit it gets really hard to justify sticking around. If your wondering i rarley even watch Leafs games anymore.

Pookie
06-17-2012, 01:25 PM
I would say we've taken a long-view approach that makes the most sense corporately: develop from within, so that development costs are lower due to proximity, then maximize potential later resale value due to the low initial development cost.

I mean, I hate to be cynical, but it's business to these guys. They already make a few million -- minimum, after the books are cooked -- a year on the team; if they can add three or four player sales of $2-5M each over a 15-year period? Hoot mon, they've just doubled the team's relative share value.

I'll take a more cynical view in that the idea to "develop from within" is a league directive. It's not unique to TFC. Every team has an MLS Academy because every team shares in the $200M Adidas deal which was struck based on the access to young players that Adidas would receive.

I love the FC Dallas model. 5,000 kids in their Academy program. Really? You mean they have over 250 teams each with paid coaches and 3:1 ratio of training to games? No, they are counting kids in summer camps and one day clinics like a website counts hits. Expanding "partnerships" with local soccer associations enables more "hits" to be counted... as the Whitecaps have done with the BC Soccer Association.

It's ridiculous to think that parents will send their kids to TFC-Academy if they are living in Ottawa or Napean or Thunder Bay or London or Kitchener or Orillia or anywhere outside of the GTA. It is a business model of course and selling a kid will yield dividends. To think of it as the only way to stock the first team with talent is foolhardy and will yield results no better than we have seen.

Until we have a leader that acknowledges that to compete in a North American league with a Domestic quota rule they need to identify and attract the best talent from North America (not just the GTA) we will continue to see these results.



I will say, however, that if they keep the hands off from here on in and leave Mariner alone, he's got the knowledge and background to put something winning together. I simply don't expect it to happen. They'll probably axe his ass if we're not winning most games by this time next year.

I agree with this. In fact, though I am fond of saying "Win or Draw now, there is no lose" I don't want to see Mariner fired for poor results. I want Anselmi fired and then we can defer a decision on Mariner until a new direction, one which embraces the North American nature of our league, is determined.

TFC USA
06-17-2012, 01:36 PM
There is some truth in Toronto FC essentially "carrying the Canadian flag" because they were the first Canadian MLS club and had a bunch of Canadians on the original squad, including Andrea Lombardo, who was legitimately the worst striker in the history of ever. But now there are 3 MLS clubs in Canada, and the other two look vastly superior to us in MLS already. To use Canadian clubs as a springboard for Canadian national team talent is just not smart and I wouldn't be exaggerating if I said Canada is one of the worst footballing nations in the developed Western world.

I just want a winning team, and for obvious reasons I don't give a shit if it involves 10 Canadians or 1 on the pitch, and it seems Vancouver and Montreal have taken this approach.

ag futbol
06-17-2012, 02:06 PM
I really don't see any competing agendas here.

We have 30 roster spots, ten of which are occupied by borderline professionals on pretty much all MLS teams. Is it that much of a problem if we stock it with academy talent and look long term? We are one of a handful of MLS clubs with a robust local soccer community which can be adequately tapped by a MLS team, it's already yielded a few academy players who have more upside than the usual 22-23 year old NCAA plumber. Providing we don't get ahead of ourselves and start these kids before they are ready... there isn't any reason why having these players on our roster hurts our first team.

If you want to know why TFC sucks: we misspend our resources. Our scouting is awful and our contract negotiation is atrocious. I don't care whether the back end of the roster is Canadian or American, until we can consistently can identify international players who make a difference this team will be junk.

Pookie
06-17-2012, 02:49 PM
I really don't see any competing agendas here.

We have 30 roster spots, ten of which are occupied by borderline professionals on pretty much all MLS teams. Is it that much of a problem if we stock it with academy talent and look long term?

Well, as of right now that Academy talent is essentially in our starting 11. Whereas Canadians on Vancouver's roster see 0 minutes of game time, ours play. As an example, Henry has more minutes that Frings. Granted, injuries to Frings have impacted that but the point is that they are taking on significant minutes. The point is that a very young Henry is being thrust into a role that he may or may not be ready for.


We are one of a handful of MLS clubs with a robust local soccer community which can be adequately tapped by a MLS team, it's already yielded a few academy players who have more upside than the usual 22-23 year old NCAA plumber. Providing we don't get ahead of ourselves and start these kids before they are ready... there isn't any reason why having these players on our roster hurts our first team.

I take a slight issue with the robust local soccer community comment. We are talking about the GTA almost exclusively. 13 year olds aren't having their parents drive them in from London, Ontario 3 x a week. We are talking about plucking talent from an OSA development system that has fed the national team to the point that we have achieved the ranking of 75th in the world.

Why not pluck them from the USA where they have collectively reached the height of 14th in the world at one point?

Sadly, we are also talking about a hockey mad hotbed of development where the best "athletes"... perhaps directed by their parents... are playing hockey to the point where 208 current NHLers come from this Province. The hockey leagues in and around the GTA are serious business.

I think the Academy is a great development initiative. I think that you might identify players from here who could have a shot. The brochures sound terrific but I wouldn't bank on this as the system that will feed the first team exclusively for years and years. Not scouting for talent is a huge mistake.


If you want to know why TFC sucks: we misspend our resources. Our scouting is awful and our contract negotiation is atrocious. I don't care whether the back end of the roster is Canadian or American, until we can consistently can identify international players who make a difference this team will be junk.

I agree and I'm not sure if you see the correlation. Let's walk with that scouting example.

If there is an available roster spot and there is a choice between promoting an Academy player and an American player how do we know we are making an informed decision if scouting is awful? Maybe the fact that we see Stinson (or Dunfield for that matter) is because no one has been anywhere in North America to see what's available.

I go with you if we were talking spots 20-24 on the roster. But we aren't. We are talking about starters or active subs.

I am not at all confident that we have identified the strongest roster available.

maxpower
06-17-2012, 03:08 PM
On a side note. I love BMO and all, but i think BMO is kind of ugly and a step down now in terms architectural design compared to all these new stadiums popping up in this league.

K.C. Stadium is a prime example.

ag futbol
06-17-2012, 03:36 PM
Well, as of right now that Academy talent is essentially in our starting 11. Whereas Canadians on Vancouver's roster see 0 minutes of game time, ours play. As an example, Henry has more minutes that Frings. Granted, injuries to Frings have impacted that but the point is that they are taking on significant minutes. The point is that a very young Henry is being thrust into a role that he may or may not be ready for.
Right, so I'd agree with you in a sense that academy players have too large of a role in the first team currently.

BUT if you look at why they have their roles in the first place... it's not by design, it's because TFC didn't get the talent they need out of signings that were designed to be first team. Just because they are playing too much doesn't mean they shouldn't be on the roster.



I take a slight issue with the robust local soccer community comment. We are talking about the GTA almost exclusively. 13 year olds aren't having their parents drive them in from London, Ontario 3 x a week. We are talking about plucking talent from an OSA development system that has fed the national team to the point that we have achieved the ranking of 75th in the world.

Why not pluck them from the USA where they have collectively reached the height of 14th in the world at one point?
I'll call it robust because there is a huge volume of registered players here within the GTA. It is incredibly diverse and dense. So that area alone gives you a lot to work with... but that being said, TFC still has players on its roster from outside the city so I think you've taken your argument about where we can draw players from further than warranted.

The 75th ranking in FIFA tells you where we are, not where we could be. Development is about potential, and conditions that allow potential to flourish. The conditions in the area are advantageous to TFC ... if they knew how to capitalize on them. It's also worth noting that we're developing players for a relatively meddling league here. I think it more than meets the requirement.


If there is an available roster spot and there is a choice between promoting an Academy player and an American player how do we know we are making an informed decision if scouting is awful? Maybe the fact that we see Stinson (or Dunfield for that matter) is because no one has been anywhere in North America to see what's available.

I go with you if we were talking spots 20-24 on the roster. But we aren't. We are talking about starters or active subs.

I am not at all confident that we have identified the strongest roster available.
Right, but this is a problem on multiple levels, it's not about the Canadian academy kids who are on the roster.

Despite some marketing spin by the F.O. this team was NEVER designed around academy graduates. TFC signed players who were intended to be starters, they were subsequently soooo poor that starting academy players who earn minimal wages makes more sense. You will find no argument from me that guys like Dunfield, JDG, Cann, etc... could be replaced by more talented individuals. That being said, comparing someone like Stinson to talent elsewhere in North America is apples and Oranges.

For those spots at the end of the roster you have very minimal money to throw out there. You're going to get a very low quality NCAA grad, USL lifer, or a academy graduate for that money. The upside of the academy graduates just wins out in my opinion. You take these guys from a young age and bring them through and you'll have a better player than you would if you take a short-term mentality and use one of the other alternatives.

If TFC wants to fix itself, it needs to fix it's wonky salary allocation and start finding some better players. TFC has 20 spots it can use to stock first team players as it stands, that should be more than sufficient to field a good squad. If you're really saying these academy kids are a hindrance, that to me sounds a lot like you feel that there are better players out there for 40k a year and those players on other teams make the difference between TFC and a winning squad. I just do not see that on any level. Back end roster players are back end roster players. TFC is actually ahead of the curve here by potentially getting huge value out of something other teams are basically wasting on scrubs that offer a very small, short term benefit.

ManUtd4ever
06-17-2012, 04:25 PM
With all due respect to everyone that felt this team was more competitive under Winter, I think you all need to seriously refresh your memory. The match against RSL was the exception under Winter, not the norm.

Winter won a grand total of ONE game on the road in MLS during his tenure, and TFC's goal differential on the road was was beyond pathetic.

I must have watched a different match last night than many of you, because after the first 20-30 minutes in which TFC was understandably sluggish, the boys came on strong and generated at least 6-7 quality chances to even the game, 3-4 of which were point blank range.

But I suppose it was all part of SKC's plan to let TFC back into the game and be a goal post and a few incredible saves by their goalkeeper away from earning points on their own turf.

Those of who you suggest that Winter was fired prematurely now actually have the nerve to berate Mariner after one game?

Suit yourselves.

v00d00daddy
06-17-2012, 04:35 PM
With all due respect to everyone that felt this team was more competitive under Winter, I think you all need to seriously refresh your memory. The match against RSL was the exception under Winter, not the norm.

Winter won a grand total of ONE game on the road in MLS during his tenure, and TFC's goal differential on the road was was beyond pathetic.

I must have watched a different match last night than many of you, because after the first 20-30 minutes in which TFC was understandably sluggish, the boys came on strong and generated at least 6-7 quality chances to even the game, 3-4 of which were point blank range.

But I suppose it was all part of SKC's plan to let TFC back into the game and be a goal post and a few incredible saves by their goalkeeper away from earning points on their own turf.

Those of who you suggest that Winter was fired prematurely now actually have the nerve to berate Mariner after one game?

Suit yourselves.


And people like you who have faith in Mariner despite the fact that he was a part of the problem that led to a 1-9 start AND

has just as little experience coaching as Winter AND

likes to play an archaic, dead form of football AND

did not have the team prepared at all (despite having a long break to get his shit together...the same break that you use as an excuse)

Suit yourself.


As for me...I don't like that Winter was fired but I understand it. What bothers me waaaaaay more is that they replaced him with a man that not only doesn't know shit about the system or style of play that the club has adopted but he doesn't even like it.

How stupid is that?

Beach_Red
06-17-2012, 04:45 PM
If TFC wants to fix itself, it needs to fix it's wonky salary allocation and start finding some better players.

.

This is pretty much exactly what Pookie has been saying. This has been the same management problem from day one with this team that has never been addressed. From the start they scrambled for players and signed anyone they could convince to play here - the scouting was essentially done by an agency (who just heppened to represent most of the players signed here). Did the team spend any money on scouts? Who handled the contract negotiations that resulted ithis wonky salary allocation? Who's handling it now?

This is what people mean by the head coach here not getting any support, there's never been a proper front office. There still isn't.

Chris Wren
06-17-2012, 04:55 PM
It blows my mind that people are upset that Winter was fired. He was awful. What do you mean by the head coach not getting any support? It seems to be a cliche that people throw around without it meaning anything. Give examples. I didn't hear or read Winter complaining he didn't have support. What do you really know about the front office? Nothing.

Winter's record is why he was fired. He brought in many players and couldn't get them to perform under his system. He absolutely 100% deserved to be fired.

AL-MO
06-17-2012, 04:59 PM
It blows my mind that people are upset that Winter was fired. He was awful. What do you mean by the head coach not getting any support? It seems to be a cliche that people throw around without it meaning anything. Give examples. I didn't hear or read Winter complaining he didn't have support. What do you really know about the front office? Nothing.

Winter's record is why he was fired. He brought in many players and couldn't get them to perform under his system. He absolutely 100% deserved to be fired.

He also led TFC to the CCL Semi's. So I can see how people look at that side of things, even though I agree he should have been axed.

Really the real problem is above winter anyway. And that's where we should focus our attention/angst.

OgtheDim
06-17-2012, 05:02 PM
...B) don't hold your breath. The MLSE organization has bigger issues than tfc. Rogers and bell bought the stake in Mlse for access to content. Each have their own sportsnet work that needs programming. And the programming they care about is the leafs first and then the raptors. Period. If anyone thinks for a moment that tfc issues will make their "give a shit" list for the first little they're delusional.

I hear that all the time and I don't buy it. Rogers/Bell are used to running divisions and asking them all to succeed. Do you think Rogers putting money into CITY TV meant they lost the ball in the cable TV division? No way.

This will be a VERY different corporate mindset from the construction company industry one MLSE has had for the last 15 years. In construction, you can have a side project that doesn't maximise and you put some guy in just to keep him busy. And the Teacher's didn't care because all they wanted was their fat cheque at the end of the quarter.

Bell and Rogers don't do that. They want revenue from content, and losing NEVER does that.

Anselmi's only hope to stay is if the Christmas Tree builder somehow persuades Rogers and Bell to let him run things for a couple of years. That would last 2 years, until some people on Rogers' or Bell's board or in their exec suites start asking questions.

This team will be run VERY differently 5 seasons from now.

Richard
06-17-2012, 05:15 PM
I hear that all the time and I don't buy it. Rogers/Bell are used to running divisions and asking them all to succeed. Do you think Rogers putting money into CITY TV meant they lost the ball in the cable TV division? No way.

This will be a VERY different corporate mindset from the construction company industry one MLSE has had for the last 15 years. In construction, you can have a side project that doesn't maximise and you put some guy in just to keep him busy. And the Teacher's didn't care because all they wanted was their fat cheque at the end of the quarter.

Bell and Rogers don't do that. They want revenue from content, and losing NEVER does that.

Anselmi's only hope to stay is if the Christmas Tree builder somehow persuades Rogers and Bell to let him run things for a couple of years. That would last 2 years, until some people on Rogers' or Bell's board or in their exec suites start asking questions.

This team will be run VERY differently 5 seasons from now.

I hope your right.

Chris Wren
06-17-2012, 06:20 PM
The CCL run was good, but people are hanging too much on that. The fact that a team can be so much better in one competition than another speaks to a lack of consistency. If we were good in the CCL then we should have been good in our league too. I doubt we were more than a game or 2 above .500 in the CCL anyway. His overall record was horrible.

king dave
06-17-2012, 06:32 PM
Now where the fuck is this Shakes fuck with his comments?
Helloooooooo!!!!!!
Calling Shakes. Come in Shakes!
Oh.
He is probably on his hands/knees, among several paint cans/brushes/rollers with a Barrie contingent making a spectacular banner for the next match @ BMO.
Keep up the good work Shakes.
KD.

KGH
06-17-2012, 06:48 PM
I hear that all the time and I don't buy it. Rogers/Bell are used to running divisions and asking them all to succeed. Do you think Rogers putting money into CITY TV meant they lost the ball in the cable TV division? No way.

This will be a VERY different corporate mindset from the construction company industry one MLSE has had for the last 15 years. In construction, you can have a side project that doesn't maximise and you put some guy in just to keep him busy. And the Teacher's didn't care because all they wanted was their fat cheque at the end of the quarter.

Bell and Rogers don't do that. They want revenue from content, and losing NEVER does that.

Anselmi's only hope to stay is if the Christmas Tree builder somehow persuades Rogers and Bell to let him run things for a couple of years. That would last 2 years, until some people on Rogers' or Bell's board or in their exec suites start asking questions.

This team will be run VERY differently 5 seasons from now.

I don't disagree about having to win I just feel that the leafs and raptors will be the major priority for the management group. There are about 80 games each for the leafs Vs 30 some odd for tfc.

The priority will be those 2 franchises and tfc will continue to be an added bonus that doesn't lose money.

king dave
06-17-2012, 06:48 PM
God Only Knows Just How much I Love You.
KD.

Shakes McQueen
06-17-2012, 07:14 PM
Now where the fuck is this Shakes fuck with his comments?
Helloooooooo!!!!!!
Calling Shakes. Come in Shakes!


I'm here, waiting patiently for others to discuss this.

If you've got some specific problem with me, then take it to private messages. Getting tired of this incoherent raging spittle from you and Craiger about things I never said, and actions I never took. While you're writing that PM, feel free to let me know who I personally "called out "or "audited" (?) with my "mighty mod powers".

Others may find the bi-polar forum behaviour endearing. I am not one of them. The forum rules are the forum rules, and you're expected to abide by them.

- Scott

2mil4dero+santo
06-17-2012, 07:48 PM
way to go mlse, 6 years and you still can't find a competent coach... how does anselmi still have a job - 6 years and still can't fill the coaching position... epic fail...

denime
06-17-2012, 07:59 PM
And people like you who have faith in Mariner despite the fact that he was a part of the problem that led to a 1-9 start AND

has just as little experience coaching as Winter AND

likes to play an archaic, dead form of football AND

did not have the team prepared at all (despite having a long break to get his shit together...the same break that you use as an excuse)

Suit yourself.


As for me...I don't like that Winter was fired but I understand it. What bothers me waaaaaay more is that they replaced him with a man that not only doesn't know shit about the system or style of play that the club has adopted but he doesn't even like it.

How stupid is that?

and let's not forget Mariner was our SCOUT and player development Manager(WTF that means)who signed 70-80% of our roster,players like Aceval,Avila,Burgos Jr,Dunfiled,Eckersley,Emory,Johnson,Lambe,Maund,Pl ata,Silva,D.Williams,Hall.

We all know players they came here thanks to Winter,Soolsma,Frings,Koevermans,and academy kids that got chance to play for 1st team,Stinson,Morgan,Henry,Cordon....

The way I see, this is Mariner's team and there is no way he should get more than month(he already got 10 days to prepare team for last night embarrassing game)to produce results,he said he will tweak a bit,not total overhaul,just because HE decide to lie at the press conference and went for full overhaul does not mean he should get any extra time.

No results by July,15 when transfer opens,get the fuck out with him and Anslemi and bring another coach,who cares now if we have another coach this year.We still have T.Rongen and DeKlark on our payroll it wont hurt to try with them.

FFS mariner was jumping an yelling on the sideline last night like REP U11 coach who is trying to teach the kids how to play 11 a side for the first time ever,if he did his job properly during 10 days of practicing he should be sitting on the bench and watching his teams executing what he thought them,not giving instruction like he has kids on the field that run around like headless chickens,only what was missing to look exactly as youth U11 game is every now and than loud BOOOOT It,from the side line and that would be a perfect copy of REP games in Ontario.
He has more experience with NA media than Winter and he is using it 100%,having a interview during the game and telling us how he will change formation push up and even what players he will substitute,are you fooking kidding me?
As head coach last night it was his 15th game as head coach,4 times less than Winter,why people think he is the answer for our problems,when it's obvious he was/is a part of the problem,his sugar daddy Tom should be fired with Mariner,Kockhrane and Bernie.

CLEAN the FO,hire new club president with soccer knowledge and let him do the job,period.

2mil4dero+santo
06-17-2012, 08:08 PM
and let's not forget Mariner was our SCOUT and player development Manager(WTF that means)who signed 70-80% of our roster,players like Aceval,Avila,Burgos Jr,Dunfiled,Eckersley,Emory,Johnson,Lambe,Maund,Pl ata,Silva,D.Williams,Hall.

We all know players they came here thanks to Winter,Soolsma,Frings,Koevermans,and academy kids that got chance to play for 1st team,Stinson,Morgan,Henry,Cordon....

The way I see, this is Mariner's team and there is no way he should get more than month(he already got 10 days to prepare team for last night embarrassing game)to produce results,he said he will tweak a bit,not total overhaul,just because HE decide to lie at the press conference and went for full overhaul does not mean he should get any extra time.

No results by July,15 when transfer opens,get the fuck out with him and Anslemi and bring another coach,who cares now if we have another coach this year.We still have T.Rongen and DeKlark on our payroll it wont hurt to try with them.

FFS mariner was jumping an yelling on the sideline last night like REP U11 coach who is trying to teach the kids how to play 11 a side for the first time ever,if he did his job properly during 10 days of practicing he should be sitting on the bench and watching his teams executing what he thought them,not giving instruction like he has kids on the field that run around like headless chickens,only what was missing to look exactly as youth U11 game is every now and than loud BOOOOT It,from the side line and that would be a perfect copy of REP games in Ontario.
He has more experience with NA media than Winter and he is using it 100%,having a interview during the game and telling us how he will change formation push up and even what players he will substitute,are you fooking kidding me?
As head coach last night it was his 15th game as head coach,4 times less than Winter,why people think he is the answer for our problems,when it's obvious he was/is a part of the problem,his sugar daddy Tom should be fired with Mariner,Kockhrane and Bernie.

CLEAN the FO,hire new club president with soccer knowledge and let him do the job,period.

This...

6 years and they can't hire a coach with some proven experience/crudentials... This season is a write-off, this would be the best time to bring in a real coach to prepare for next season and we haven't heard anything from management on who they plan to bring in. I don't mean to slam Mariner, maybe he can turn out well, but it's a gamble. It seems like anselmi has thinks mariner is now the coach and will wait for fans to get pissed off again and we go through the hole fire a coach and promote the assistant again and again... I would like to hear from upper management about what kind of efforts they're making to fill the position. I have a feeling that nothing will happen...

Please for the love of god, hire a proven coach now so we can have a proper pre-season for once and be ready at the beginning of next season.

ryan
06-17-2012, 08:54 PM
They'll be lucky if they ever get my business again, for anything, let alone TFC. Especially after the way I was treated last time I went.

Real Sports isn't for you and I. It's for corporate asshole joe and his buddy, just like the Leafs are.

ryan
06-17-2012, 08:56 PM
Anyone watching last night's match is fully aware that Santos is going to bloody obliterate us to the moon with that form. At least with Winter we had some kind of a chance.

Whoop
06-17-2012, 08:57 PM
Guys, Tom Anselmi has other functions at MLSE. He is the Executive VP and COO of the entire operation meaning that he has other functions other than running TFC.

So he's not going anywhere as much as people protest.

Only way they notice is if the team starts losing gobs of money... i.e. not renewing season tickets, etc.

Shakes McQueen
06-17-2012, 09:20 PM
Guys, Tom Anselmi has other functions at MLSE. He is the Executive VP and COO of the entire operation meaning that he has other functions other than running TFC.

So he's not going anywhere as much as people protest.

Only way they notice is if the team starts losing gobs of money... i.e. not renewing season tickets, etc.

Even if you don't get him outright fired, if you make enough noise the new onwership group may look to at least remove him from overseeing the team. Then he can COO it up to heart's content.

- Scott

ryan
06-17-2012, 09:20 PM
Only way they notice is if the team starts losing gobs of money... i.e. not renewing season tickets, etc.

Before someone jumps in with a "it's bullshit and you're an arse if you don't show up and support our team because of this, blah blah blah" I think it's worse off by renewing tickets than not when it comes to supporting those players and the football team itself.

The only way to success is to defeat the scourge, to defeat the scourge you have to hit them where they only care...money. Stop giving it to them, stop setting the market for them, stop supporting their massive fail, stop watching this fucking trainwreck. By doing so, you are in fact, supporting the goal of successful fucking football in Toronto. By contributing to their failure and allowing it to continue and be profitable, you are not supporting them in their fuck ups and continuing this mess of shit the players have to suffer through. To force them to make the change needed, they need to lose their supporters, their money, their fucking profits, it's that bloody simple.

We, as the fans, as THE fucking market, set the prices, set the value, set the rules. We just don't fucking realize it. IF every single SSH said you know what, fuck you MLSE and didn't renew.....WHO HAS ALL THE POWER NOW? Surely not them. They aren't going to play to an empty house and lose money hand over fist are they? We set the fucking price, we are the mob, we are the market, WE MAKE THE FUCKING RULES IF WE FUCKING REALIZE IT. We tell them what's fucking acceptable and what's not, what we're willing to pay and what we'll tolerate. Right now, we tolerate failure, we pay for $15 beer and whatever fucking ticket price they throw at us, we fucking tell them this is fucking OK and we're gonna sing for the boys anyways.

I think it's a bloody mirage if you think by paying and showing up you are supporting the team, but that's just my take on it.

By walking away you aren't giving up on the players, you're doing them a fucking favour. No player deserves to be subjected to this political shit and the only way, the absolute ONLY WAY is empty fucking seats.


I have never been so furious over a fucking sport club in my life. I want to kick every MLSE board member in the fucking teeth for the way they've treated Toronto, they deserve nothing less. I wish the masses would fucking get a clue and unite.

Phil
06-17-2012, 10:10 PM
Guys, Tom Anselmi has other functions at MLSE. He is the Executive VP and COO of the entire operation meaning that he has other functions other than running TFC.

So he's not going anywhere as much as people protest.

Only way they notice is if the team starts losing gobs of money... i.e. not renewing season tickets, etc.

Change the structure and install proper roles with accountability. He can miser over his dollars but he needs to leave the operations of TFC alone.

TFC07
06-17-2012, 10:37 PM
Before someone jumps in with a "it's bullshit and you're an arse if you don't show up and support our team because of this, blah blah blah" I think it's worse off by renewing tickets than not when it comes to supporting those players and the football team itself.

The only way to success is to defeat the scourge, to defeat the scourge you have to hit them where they only care...money. Stop giving it to them, stop setting the market for them, stop supporting their massive fail, stop watching this fucking trainwreck. By doing so, you are in fact, supporting the goal of successful fucking football in Toronto. By contributing to their failure and allowing it to continue and be profitable, you are not supporting them in their fuck ups and continuing this mess of shit the players have to suffer through. To force them to make the change needed, they need to lose their supporters, their money, their fucking profits, it's that bloody simple.

We, as the fans, as THE fucking market, set the prices, set the value, set the rules. We just don't fucking realize it. IF every single SSH said you know what, fuck you MLSE and didn't renew.....WHO HAS ALL THE POWER NOW? Surely not them. They aren't going to play to an empty house and lose money hand over fist are they? We set the fucking price, we are the mob, we are the market, WE MAKE THE FUCKING RULES IF WE FUCKING REALIZE IT. We tell them what's fucking acceptable and what's not, what we're willing to pay and what we'll tolerate. Right now, we tolerate failure, we pay for $15 beer and whatever fucking ticket price they throw at us, we fucking tell them this is fucking OK and we're gonna sing for the boys anyways.

I think it's a bloody mirage if you think by paying and showing up you are supporting the team, but that's just my take on it.

By walking away you aren't giving up on the players, you're doing them a fucking favour. No player deserves to be subjected to this political shit and the only way, the absolute ONLY WAY is empty fucking seats.


I have never been so furious over a fucking sport club in my life. I want to kick every MLSE board member in the fucking teeth for the way they've treated Toronto, they deserve nothing less. I wish the masses would fucking get a clue and unite.

Sad that only way to get things done in North American sports is not to show up and spend money on teams so owners are forced to take action to improve their product.

Our only hope is someone in Rogers/Bell who is soccer savvy gets rid of Tommy boy and get a proper soccer president in place.

Corpand
06-17-2012, 11:27 PM
Being a fan since seeing the TFC ad inside a local Metro newspaper back in 2005, I can honestly say that this management team has had absolutely any clue on how to run a football club. Firing fantastic players (Guevara) over instilling a new coach with a grudge tells tales of how pathetic this club is run. No vision, no want (more importantly no idea) of success, poor poor financial decisions and horrendous care for players. Remember the DeRo fiasco? How many players in the world directly attack their club's financial leaders by making a chequre-writing motion? He wanted to stay in Toronto, most of us did too, yet front office had to show who's boss.

Its pathetic. How I watch this beautiful club being ground up into drivel by a bunch of suits is beyond me. I will never stop though. With time, things do change.

Cashcleaner
06-18-2012, 01:20 AM
Guys, Tom Anselmi has other functions at MLSE. He is the Executive VP and COO of the entire operation meaning that he has other functions other than running TFC.

So he's not going anywhere as much as people protest.

Only way they notice is if the team starts losing gobs of money... i.e. not renewing season tickets, etc.


Change the structure and install proper roles with accountability. He can miser over his dollars but he needs to leave the operations of TFC alone.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. We know that Anselmi isn't going to leave the organization any time soon, but we don't really need him to. We just need him to take his grubby hands off TFC and install a competent replacement as Club President.

ensco
06-18-2012, 07:05 AM
A) Guys, Tom Anselmi has other functions at MLSE. He is the Executive VP and COO of the entire operation meaning that he has other functions other than running TFC.

B) So he's not going anywhere as much as people protest. Only way they notice is if the team starts losing gobs of money... i.e. not renewing season tickets, etc.

I disagree about the causality you imply between your points A and B. The money would have come in whether or not Anselmi was there. Anselmi is a guy who woke up on third base and is endlessly telling everyone he hit a triple.

Let's look at what he is responsible for, besides TFC. Burke and Colangelo report to the board, so it's primarily broadcast rights. Negotiating the Leafs rights, how hard is that? Negotiating the Raptors rights, that's trickier, I think he did a nice job there renewing a couple of years ago. Leafs TV, Raptors TV and GOL TV: all abject commercial failures, other teams have done far better on their franchise-owned networks, and he should be taking a lot of heat for that.

I wouldn't minimize the impact of the mess that is TFC on any assessment of his performance. It may be small dollars, but it was supposed to be the place where Anselmi proved himself as a sports exec. It casts a pall on his whole record.

My conclusion: nobody would see him as necessary or special. He was Peddie's choice, and a very public Peddie loyalist, and that's why he has been there so long.

I think the correct assumption as that he is more likely than not to be gone from MLSE entirely within 3-6 months of closing.

Beware: the next guy may look just like him, ie a suit, and not a soccer exec.

Oldtimer
06-18-2012, 07:10 AM
Being a fan since seeing the TFC ad inside a local Metro newspaper back in 2005, I can honestly say that this management team has had absolutely any clue on how to run a football club. Firing fantastic players (Guevara) over instilling a new coach with a grudge tells tales of how pathetic this club is run.

Actually Guevara took off when he heard Preki was coming... TFC management didn't even know he was gone for a couple of days. Guevara had been treated quite badly by Preki at Chivas. Of course, Mo should have known that if he brought in his buddy Preki, that Amado would not stay.

The rest of your post is spot on.

Oldtimer
06-18-2012, 07:14 AM
^ ensco, I think Uncle Tom Anselmi was responsible for the condo development, so he deserves credit for that. Well within his competence as an engineer, one would think! I agree with you, though, that being a Peddie loyalist is probably #1 on his resume.

When Bell/Rogers take over, I would be surprised to see him win the gold ring. I agree with you that leaving (likely with a handsome payout) is the most probable result.

ensco
06-18-2012, 07:18 AM
^ ensco, I think Uncle Tom Anselmi was responsible for the condo development, so he deserves credit for that. Well within his competence as an engineer, one would think! I agree with you, though, that being a Peddie loyalist is probably #1 on his resume.

When Bell/Rogers take over, I would be surprised to see him win the gold ring. I agree with you that leaving (likely with a handsome payout) is the most probable result.

The only time I have ever spoken to him personally, Anselmi vehemently and repeatedly denied having anything whatsoever to do with the condos. So he probably isn't involved in that.

Suds
06-18-2012, 07:29 AM
Anselmi is a guy who woke up on third base and is endlessly telling everyone he hit a triple.



What a perfectly fitting analogy.

Beach_Red
06-18-2012, 07:31 AM
I disagree about the causality you imply between your points A and B. The money would have come in whether or not Anselmi was there. Anselmi is a guy who woke up on third base and is endlessly telling everyone he hit a triple.

Let's look at what he is responsible for, besides TFC. Burke and Colangelo report to the board, so it's primarily broadcast rights. Negotiating the Leafs rights, how hard is that? Negotiating the Raptors rights, that's trickier, I think he did a nice job there renewing a couple of years ago. Leafs TV, Raptors TV and GOL TV: all abject commercial failures, other teams have done far better on their franchise-owned networks, and he should be taking a lot of heat for that.

I wouldn't minimize the impact of the mess that is TFC on any assessment of his performance. It may be small dollars, but it was supposed to be the place where Anselmi proved himself as a sports exec. It casts a pall on his whole record.

My conclusion: nobody would see him as necessary or special. He was Peddie's choice, and a very public Peddie loyalist, and that's why he has been there so long.

I think the correct assumption as that he is more likely than not to be gone from MLSE entirely within 3-6 months of closing.

Beware: the next guy may look just like him, ie a suit, and not a soccer exec.

The danger would be that the non-soccer exec would try and make decisions about the team, and that is a possibility.There's some discontent at CTV right now that a guy from Bell's "home service" department (internet delivery) was put in charge and is making content decisions and picking the new (Canadian) shows in development. The Canadian shows make up so little of what CTV does, of course, so it may be a little like Anselmi learning to be a sports exec with TFC before moving on to the bigger teams.

ag futbol
06-18-2012, 07:54 AM
The only time I have ever spoken to him personally, Anselmi vehemently and repeatedly denied having anything whatsoever to do with the condos. So he probably isn't involved in that.
Even if he did, I'm sure the condos would mirror Toronto FC in every way. He'd probably call himself a genius for making money on a hot market, but if you compared his performance to another developer, it'd probably be shit.

mastermixer
06-18-2012, 07:59 AM
Just a theory (what else can we do at this point), but I think the firing of Winter was Anselmi's last chance to save himself before the new ownership comes in and fires his inept ass. He knows if Winter was still around when the new guys come in they would look at the record and show Tom the door. Putting in Mariner is his only option to redeem himself at this point. Basically Winter was sacrificed halfway through the season to give the used car salesman a chance to save face.

C.Ronaldo
06-18-2012, 08:34 AM
There was a game?

Yup, all Apathy at this point. Thank the Lord for euro cup



This was such a letdown after watching Canada and Euro 2012. You know what is worse then anger? Apathy! I took off at half time to go for gelato and didn't even bother taping the 2nd half. I guess I made the right decision. How very sad.

Canary10
06-18-2012, 08:38 AM
I don't think not renewing season tickets is the way to protest the ownership. I'm not sure they give enough of a shit about soccer in the city to really care. They are more apt to slash the team payroll or pack it all up if they start losing money. UK supporters seem to find pretty creative ways to protest. I loved the Venky's chicken at Blackburn. Also got a million hits all over the world. Must be something like that we can do.

__wowza
06-18-2012, 09:08 AM
Its pathetic. How I watch this beautiful club being ground up into drivel by a bunch of suits is beyond me. I will never stop though. With time, things do change.

bang-on my friend!

this ownership group fucked up hard. they fell ass backwards into a fanbase that absolutely fell in love with the club, seriously, if you went to games in the first 3 seasons you know what im talking about. they didn't even have to advertise and the stadium would just sell out. supporters would cheer and roar, and go for the full 90+ even when they had no reason to. any other franchise in the MLS would KILL for the type of support they were HANDED.. and make no mistake it was handed to them by a city that loves this sport. the benefits of being a SSH weren't anywhere close to what was being offered elsewhere, but none of us seemed to care because we had our team, and friends with us.

instead of staying the course and standing with the people that brought them to the dance, they started dicking us around. raising ticket prices, talking about apples and oranges, switching coaches, swapping out players, going on about a 5 year plan, and THEY STILL HAVENT LEARNED. despite popular outsider opinion, this club is not a joke, it's simply being treated as one by our ownership group.

Suds
06-18-2012, 09:32 AM
I don't think not renewing season tickets is the way to protest the ownership. I'm not sure they give enough of a shit about soccer in the city to really care. They are more apt to slash the team payroll or pack it all up if they start losing money. UK supporters seem to find pretty creative ways to protest. I loved the Venky's chicken at Blackburn. Also got a million hits all over the world. Must be something like that we can do.

Besides, TFC know all they need to do is offer a second car or something at renewal time and thousands will renew early for their chance to win.

ManUtd4ever
06-18-2012, 09:48 AM
and let's not forget Mariner was our SCOUT and player development Manager(WTF that means)who signed 70-80% of our roster,players like Aceval,Avila,Burgos Jr,Dunfiled,Eckersley,Emory,Johnson,Lambe,Maund,Pl ata,Silva,D.Williams,Hall.

We all know players they came here thanks to Winter,Soolsma,Frings,Koevermans,and academy kids that got chance to play for 1st team,Stinson,Morgan,Henry,Cordon....

The way I see, this is Mariner's team and there is no way he should get more than month(he already got 10 days to prepare team for last night embarrassing game)to produce results,he said he will tweak a bit,not total overhaul,just because HE decide to lie at the press conference and went for full overhaul does not mean he should get any extra time.

No results by July,15 when transfer opens,get the fuck out with him and Anslemi and bring another coach,who cares now if we have another coach this year.We still have T.Rongen and DeKlark on our payroll it wont hurt to try with them.

FFS mariner was jumping an yelling on the sideline last night like REP U11 coach who is trying to teach the kids how to play 11 a side for the first time ever,if he did his job properly during 10 days of practicing he should be sitting on the bench and watching his teams executing what he thought them,not giving instruction like he has kids on the field that run around like headless chickens,only what was missing to look exactly as youth U11 game is every now and than loud BOOOOT It,from the side line and that would be a perfect copy of REP games in Ontario.
He has more experience with NA media than Winter and he is using it 100%,having a interview during the game and telling us how he will change formation push up and even what players he will substitute,are you fooking kidding me?
As head coach last night it was his 15th game as head coach,4 times less than Winter,why people think he is the answer for our problems,when it's obvious he was/is a part of the problem,his sugar daddy Tom should be fired with Mariner,Kockhrane and Bernie.

CLEAN the FO,hire new club president with soccer knowledge and let him do the job,period.

Yes, everyone acknowledges that Anselmi must be relieved of his duties, and yes, the front office needs to be revamped, but we all know that isn't going to happen in the immediate future because of the pending sale of MLSE.

I also agree that the current roster is primarily Paul Mariner's handywork, but nonetheless, he still deserves at least a semblence of the time frame that you and others were willing to allow Aron Winter to produce results. Perhaps not a year and a half, but at the very least, the duration of this season.

Canary10
06-18-2012, 09:52 AM
Yes, everyone acknowledges that Anselmi must be relieved of his duties, and yes, the front office needs to be revamped, but we all know that isn't going to happen in the immediate future because of the pending sale of MLSE.

I also agree that the current roster is primarily Paul Mariner's handywork, but nonetheless, he still deserves at least a semblence of the time frame that you and others were willing to allow Aron Winter to produce results. Perhaps not a year and a half, but at the very least, the duration of this season.

He needs to the end of the season for sure. Three managers in one season would be a bit much, even for MLSE standards. That said, I think he's a caretaker. I hope they're starting a search already, and the Anselmi has no part in it. Let Rongen make the decision. Caleb Porter, btw, is still out there.

Suds
06-18-2012, 09:55 AM
Yes, everyone acknowledges that Anselmi must be relieved of his duties, and yes, the front office needs to be revamped, but we all know that isn't going to happen in the immediate future because of the pending sale of MLSE.

I also agree that the current roster is primarily Paul Mariner's handywork, but nonetheless, he still deserves at least a semblence of the time frame that you and others were willing to allow Aron Winter to produce results. Perhaps not a year and a half, but at the very least, the duration of this season.

This is where I am. If Mariner did have input and made decisions on who TFC signed then he, more than any other coach, should get positive results out of them. Mariner should be afforded time to turn this team around. And by some I mean the rest of the year. Saturday's game was a disaster, but we cannot measure him on one game.

10 games from now we will have some actual results and team performances in which to start evaluating his impact and ability.

jloome
06-18-2012, 10:05 AM
I disagree about the causality you imply between your points A and B. The money would have come in whether or not Anselmi was there. Anselmi is a guy who woke up on third base and is endlessly telling everyone he hit a triple.

Let's look at what he is responsible for, besides TFC. Burke and Colangelo report to the board, so it's primarily broadcast rights. Negotiating the Leafs rights, how hard is that? Negotiating the Raptors rights, that's trickier, I think he did a nice job there renewing a couple of years ago. Leafs TV, Raptors TV and GOL TV: all abject commercial failures, other teams have done far better on their franchise-owned networks, and he should be taking a lot of heat for that.

I wouldn't minimize the impact of the mess that is TFC on any assessment of his performance. It may be small dollars, but it was supposed to be the place where Anselmi proved himself as a sports exec. It casts a pall on his whole record.

My conclusion: nobody would see him as necessary or special. He was Peddie's choice, and a very public Peddie loyalist, and that's why he has been there so long.

I think the correct assumption as that he is more likely than not to be gone from MLSE entirely within 3-6 months of closing.

Beware: the next guy may look just like him, ie a suit, and not a soccer exec.

Remember your own Peddie analysis: the guy returned 5% annually and they revere him. From their perspective, Anselmi has quadrupled the value of their franchide and made them a hell of a lot more than 5% each year. Why would they get rid of him? From the bottom line perspective, he's gaining far more than he loses.

Chris Wren
06-18-2012, 10:55 AM
Anyone watching last night's match is fully aware that Santos is going to bloody obliterate us to the moon with that form. At least with Winter we had some kind of a chance.


How do you figure, because of one good stretch of about 10 games a year ago? Our form has been horrendous this year, with Winter coaching us to a 1-9 record. The team looked lost most games.

This support for Winter, while throwing Marriner under the bus (after one game!) is incredible.

2mil4dero+santo
06-18-2012, 10:57 AM
Yes, everyone acknowledges that Anselmi must be relieved of his duties, and yes, the front office needs to be revamped, but we all know that isn't going to happen in the immediate future because of the pending sale of MLSE.

I also agree that the current roster is primarily Paul Mariner's handywork, but nonetheless, he still deserves at least a semblence of the time frame that you and others were willing to allow Aron Winter to produce results. Perhaps not a year and a half, but at the very least, the duration of this season.

This is the attitude that I beleive is contributing to our losing culture.

Winter should never have been hired, and neither should have Mariner. There's probably a good reason Mariner has been around as long as he has and most organizations he's worked for have not felt he was worthy of a head coaching position.

Neither coach should have been given a chance. Would you hire a right back who's never played right back? Or has played there a few times and been terrible?! Probably not, so why do that with a head coach?

Canary10
06-18-2012, 10:59 AM
How do you figure, because of one good stretch of about 10 games a year ago? Our form has been horrendous this year, with Winter coaching us to a 1-9 record. The team looked lost most games.

This support for Winter, while throwing Marriner under the bus (after one game!) is incredible.

The team didn't look lost for most of those games. The only ones I would truly say we looked like shit were Montreal and DC United at home. Possibly also the San Jose at home. We were in every other game. We were not remotely in Saturday's game. Worst of the season for sure. We were playing a good team so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for that. Then again, RSL and Santos are good teams and Winter had us competitive in both.

Redcoe15
06-18-2012, 11:15 AM
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz74/victor_the_crab/IdiotAnselmi.jpg?t=1340033282

ManUtd4ever
06-18-2012, 11:23 AM
This is the attitude that I beleive is contributing to our losing culture.

Winter should never have been hired, and neither should have Mariner. There's probably a good reason Mariner has been around as long as he has and most organizations he's worked for have not felt he was worthy of a head coaching position.

Neither coach should have been given a chance. Would you hire a right back who's never played right back? Or has played there a few times and been terrible?! Probably not, so why do that with a head coach?

Once again, because of the pending sale of ownership, there was no chance that a long term replacement for Winter with superb credentials was going to be hired at this point in time. I'm going to give Mariner the benefit of the doubt for the time being to see if he can lead TFC on a positive trajectory for the duration of the season and the CCL.

If you think that taking such a stance is contributing to a losing culture, it is you that needs an attitude adjustment. I'm not going judge Mariner after one game at the helm.

Fort York Redcoat
06-18-2012, 11:29 AM
This is the attitude that I beleive is contributing to our losing culture.

Winter should never have been hired, and neither should have Mariner. There's probably a good reason Mariner has been around as long as he has and most organizations he's worked for have not felt he was worthy of a head coaching position.

Neither coach should have been given a chance. Would you hire a right back who's never played right back? Or has played there a few times and been terrible?! Probably not, so why do that with a head coach?

So the alternative is? Don't give them time, don't hire those 2 and stay with a manager that can't get on with anyone?

What also can contribute to a losing culture is not knowing what to do but insist that what's happening is wrong then doing nothing about it.

ag futbol
06-18-2012, 11:29 AM
I don't know how anyone could advocate for either Winter or Mariner at this point.

Mariner's one redeeming quality seems to be that he doesn't have much of a track record we can criticize, every other coincident indicator looks awful.

As for Winter, what more needs to be said? He'll leave the league as one of the most futile managers in the history of MLS. It was never going to work, I think people should accept that.

lerxst
06-18-2012, 11:31 AM
You make some good points and appreciate your enthusiasm...too bad about your condescending attitude. But please forgive me if last night, going out for gelato was potentially more fulfilling than having to endure something like the first half again. And let me say this, please do not drag me into what being a supporter really means.

And by the way, I think you forgot an "f" in your last sentence about the club I have supported since the 1970s.

It was a typo, not improper grammar. The latter being infinitely worse. :D

So you've been following Hearts since the 70s? Awesome. That's somewhat surprising though. I mean; they haven't exactly won anything of significance since 1960. Judging by your original post I would have expected the "apathy" to set in some time ago. You could argue that they've won the Scottish Cup and the league a bunch of times (the last time being 1960 ouch), but the fact of the matter is that TFC has won more hardware / years in existence than they have (4 championships in 6 years).

So what's your criteria for increasing apathy towards one's team? If it's futility, Hearts has that in spades. When will "going out for gelato" eventually supercede your support for Hearts in terms of importance? Or is there something else I'm missing here.

It's nice to see that you've been supporting them since the 70's. I've been supporting TFC since 2007.

ag futbol
06-18-2012, 11:32 AM
So the alternative is? Don't give them time, don't hire those 2 and stay with a manager that can't get on with anyone?

What also can contribute to a losing culture is not knowing what to do but insist that what's happening is wrong then doing nothing about it.
It just points again to things at the executive level being poorly managed. Team fails, yet again, to find proper candidates and create success.

Personally, I would like to know what happened in that consulting / hiring process. Could Aron Winter really have been their first choice? I find that difficult to believe.

Beach_Red
06-18-2012, 11:34 AM
The team didn't look lost for most of those games. The only ones I would truly say we looked like shit were Montreal and DC United at home. Possibly also the San Jose at home. We were in every other game. We were not remotely in Saturday's game. Worst of the season for sure. We were playing a good team so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for that. Then again, RSL and Santos are good teams and Winter had us competitive in both.

Yes, this idea that the team looked lost is being thrown around too easily. Also, there was a clear change in the approach after Winter met with Anselmi a while ago, more emphasis on immediate results that did seem to be paying off. Certainly there needs to be some balance between the long and short-term but these guys just seem to be the most clumsy, ham-fisted decision-makers imaginable.

Canary10
06-18-2012, 12:10 PM
Yes, this idea that the team looked lost is being thrown around too easily. Also, there was a clear change in the approach after Winter met with Anselmi a while ago, more emphasis on immediate results that did seem to be paying off. Certainly there needs to be some balance between the long and short-term but these guys just seem to be the most clumsy, ham-fisted decision-makers imaginable.

Also is too much going around that the playes are awful. They're not awful players.

jrober38
06-18-2012, 12:11 PM
At this stage TFC is totally broken. From the top to the bottom, every aspect of the team is broken beyond repair. After years of total ineptitude by management, the team is no longer in a position to hire good coaches or bring in quality players because the teams reputation has spent the past 5 years getting dragged through the mud.

What was at one point in time a great opportunity to establish soccer as an extremely popular professional sport in this city has been totally wasted. In a time when the Raptors and Leafs have been equally useless (no surprise given they share the same owners), TFC was presented a golden opportunity and they wasted it. Instead of filling the stadium and creating buzz around the team, season ticket holders can't give away their tickets because no one cares, and no one wants to see this team play aside from the people who invested money into this team before this season started.

At this point, the only way to fix TFC and their reputation is to sell the team to an owner or small partnership of owners who have a vision of running a successful soccer club. With that vision comes the desire for having good coaches and good players who can get results on the pitch. For as long as this team is run by a Corporate board of directors, there is no hope whatsoever for this team.

It's just that simple.

jrober38
06-18-2012, 12:13 PM
The players who are supposed to be really good are awful by DP standards.

The role players aren't particularly bad, but the guys who are supposed to carry this team by single handedly making a major difference on the field are not getting the job done.

ensco
06-18-2012, 12:19 PM
Remember your own Peddie analysis: the guy returned 5% annually and they revere him.

There'll be a different "they" once the deal closes.

Unlike Teachers, the new guys actually have a clue as to how to measure and run an operating business.

But sure, they're suits too - there will be new and interesting forms of dysfunction.

JamboAl
06-18-2012, 12:33 PM
It was a typo, not improper grammar. The latter being infinitely worse. :D

So you've been following Hearts since the 70s? Awesome. That's somewhat surprising though. I mean; they haven't exactly won anything of significance since 1960. Judging by your original post I would have expected the "apathy" to set in some time ago. You could argue that they've won the Scottish Cup and the league a bunch of times (the last time being 1960 ouch), but the fact of the matter is that TFC has won more hardware / years in existence than they have (4 championships in 6 years).

So what's your criteria for increasing apathy towards one's team? If it's futility, Hearts has that in spades. When will "going out for gelato" eventually supercede your support for Hearts in terms of importance? Or is there something else I'm missing here.

It's nice to see that you've been supporting them since the 70's. I've been supporting TFC since 2007.

Generally, I don't go out for gelato at 10 am on a Saturday morning so have never been faced with that dilemma; and there's more to life than watching soccer, especially TFC. I've also been a Charlton Athletic supporter since the late 1980s and was a season ticket holder in the 90s when I lived in London...so I am definitely not a gloryhunter. You seem to have a good grasp of Scottish football...do you support Celtic or Club #12?

Apathy comes and goes...don't tell me there hasn't been a Leafs or Jays fan in Toronto that haven't felt the same way. And don't tell me that over the 6 seasons of TFC, you haven't said, "screw it, I've got something better to do." Cause if you haven't, then you are a better supporter than I (and I'd guess 90% of the people on this board).

Chris Wren
06-18-2012, 01:11 PM
The team didn't look lost for most of those games. The only ones I would truly say we looked like shit were Montreal and DC United at home. Possibly also the San Jose at home. We were in every other game. We were not remotely in Saturday's game. Worst of the season for sure. We were playing a good team so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for that. Then again, RSL and Santos are good teams and Winter had us competitive in both.

I guess I was watching a different team. I was watching one that scored 8 while conceding 21. I was watching a team that had repeated, glaring defensive breakdowns. I was watching a coach who sat his DP striker while playing the likes of Terry Dunfield. I remember a coach who made Maicon Santos captain, and then traded him probably 10 games later for Avila, who now sits on the bench most games. If being competitive against the odd team is a measure of success I'm afraid our standards are pretty low.

By no means am I saying Marriner is the answer to our prayers, but this talk of Winter being some sort of hope is strange to me. I never saw the attractive football others seemed to see. I certainly didn't see much of a system, especially this year. I saw players who looked frustrated rather than confident. Marriner at least has some track record in this league. I'll give him more than one game to write him off completely.

denime
06-18-2012, 01:14 PM
I guess I was watching a different team. I was watching one that scored 8 while conceding 21. I was watching a team that had repeated, glaring defensive breakdowns. I was watching a coach who sat his DP striker while playing the likes of Terry Dunfield. I remember a coach who made Maicon Santos captain, and then traded him probably 10 games later for Avila, who now sits on the bench most games. If being competitive against the odd team is a measure of success I'm afraid our standards are pretty low.

By no means am I saying Marriner is the answer to our prayers, but this talk of Winter being some sort of hope is strange to me. I never saw the attractive football others seemed to see. I certainly didn't see much of a system, especially this year. I saw players who looked frustrated rather than confident. Marriner at least has some track record in this league. I'll give him more than one game to write him off completely.

Name one as a head coach,please.

jrober38
06-18-2012, 01:28 PM
I guess I was watching a different team. I was watching one that scored 8 while conceding 21. I was watching a team that had repeated, glaring defensive breakdowns. I was watching a coach who sat his DP striker while playing the likes of Terry Dunfield. I remember a coach who made Maicon Santos captain, and then traded him probably 10 games later for Avila, who now sits on the bench most games. If being competitive against the odd team is a measure of success I'm afraid our standards are pretty low.

By no means am I saying Marriner is the answer to our prayers, but this talk of Winter being some sort of hope is strange to me. I never saw the attractive football others seemed to see. I certainly didn't see much of a system, especially this year. I saw players who looked frustrated rather than confident. Marriner at least has some track record in this league. I'll give him more than one game to write him off completely.

The team is a disaster for all of the reasons you mentioned. They can't score and they can't defend.

No new coach is going to change that, especially when the new coach is our former head scout and director of player development who hand picked almost all of these players.

TFC's issue is that they're built the wrong way. They've allocated all of they're money into players at positions who don't help them score or defend (I'm oversimplifying), and accordingly the results are terrible.

To succeed in MLS, you need a reliable goal scorer, a creative midfielder who can make the players around him better and a defender to keep the back line organized. We don't have any of those things. Kooevermans is slow and out of shape and De Guzman and Frings are defensive midfielders who offer next to nothing going forward and aren't active enough at this stage of their careers to make up for our problems at the back.

Regardless who coaches us, we won't be able to overcome these fundamental problems.

Chris Wren
06-18-2012, 01:33 PM
Name one as a head coach,please.

He doesn't as a head coach. He was assistant on New England when they went to some MLS Cups. You could also highlight the next sentence, to actually finish the thought. The part where I say I'll give him more than one game to right him off completely. You could also highlight the opening sentence of the paragraph too, where I said by no means do I think Mariner is the answer to our prayers. My point is at least he has been around this league at least, he's been a part of a good club. I believe MLS experience is important to any potential head coaches.

Do you just want to argue or something? You seem to pick one line of my post that you could say something sarcastic about. My point is that Winter had to go. Mariner might not be the answer, but he's going to have till the end of the year to prove it what he can do. I'd rather him than watch any more of the Aron winter show, which had us breaking futility records.

Canary10
06-18-2012, 01:40 PM
I guess I was watching a different team. I was watching one that scored 8 while conceding 21. I was watching a team that had repeated, glaring defensive breakdowns. I was watching a coach who sat his DP striker while playing the likes of Terry Dunfield. I remember a coach who made Maicon Santos captain, and then traded him probably 10 games later for Avila, who now sits on the bench most games. If being competitive against the odd team is a measure of success I'm afraid our standards are pretty low.

By no means am I saying Marriner is the answer to our prayers, but this talk of Winter being some sort of hope is strange to me. I never saw the attractive football others seemed to see. I certainly didn't see much of a system, especially this year. I saw players who looked frustrated rather than confident. Marriner at least has some track record in this league. I'll give him more than one game to write him off completely.


What I watched Saturday was infinitely worse than every other game this year. Bar none. Maybe we are seeing things differently, that's fair. But I saw quite a good team in most of the games this year, including many we lost.

The team needed to change managers for sure. The league record can't be defended. However, the team looked better in every other game. It's one game though so we'll see.

2mil4dero+santo
06-18-2012, 02:14 PM
So the alternative is? Don't give them time, don't hire those 2 and stay with a manager that can't get on with anyone?

What also can contribute to a losing culture is not knowing what to do but insist that what's happening is wrong then doing nothing about it.

The point I'm trying to make is that its too late now... the main problem is six seasons and the head coach position has never been properly filled imo (except maybe Carver/Cummins)...

2mil4dero+santo
06-18-2012, 02:18 PM
Once again, because of the pending sale of ownership, there was no chance that a long term replacement for Winter with superb credentials was going to be hired at this point in time. I'm going to give Mariner the benefit of the doubt for the time being to see if he can lead TFC on a positive trajectory for the duration of the season and the CCL.

If you think that taking such a stance is contributing to a losing culture, it is you that needs an attitude adjustment. I'm not going judge Mariner after one game at the helm.

The point I'm trying to make, is that a real coach should have been hired a long time ago. It's been obvious for some time that Winter was incompetent, they had over a year to come up with a back up plan. Instead, we get Mariner. I see your point, I'm just voicing my frustration over 6 years and no good leadership at any level of this club.

ManUtd4ever
06-18-2012, 02:29 PM
The point I'm trying to make, is that a real coach should have been hired a long time ago. It's been obvious for some time that Winter was incompetent, they had over a year to come up with a back up plan. Instead, we get Mariner. I see your point, I'm just voicing my frustration over 6 years and no good leadership at any level of this club.

No argument there.

Jcm144
06-18-2012, 04:22 PM
New coach isn't going to do anything. The struggles will continue and continue. I just want TFC to look like a competitive team out there that will fight for the rest of the season.

Shakes McQueen
06-18-2012, 06:31 PM
Remember your own Peddie analysis: the guy returned 5% annually and they revere him. From their perspective, Anselmi has quadrupled the value of their franchide and made them a hell of a lot more than 5% each year. Why would they get rid of him? From the bottom line perspective, he's gaining far more than he loses.

This is why I think we should focus on getting him removed from oversight of Toronto FC, not necessarily overreach and try to get him fired completely. That won't happen.

With new owners though, I could absolutely see them reacting to a public display of fan unrest towards Anselmi. All we want is better fortunes for our club - I don't care if he keeps drawing a paycheque.

- Scott

ag futbol
06-18-2012, 06:45 PM
^ I don't think it would necessarily be for us, it could just as easily be for themselves. The real money will be made on TFC when it can sustain decent TV ratings and bring in more advert dollars. Lucky for us the content is streamlined all the way through to the people who sell the ad space. They'd be pretty pissed if some shit-poor product prevented them from a potentially large advertising stream in Canada's largest market. And that's where Captain Douche's job just got a whole lot more complicated.

glaze
06-18-2012, 07:51 PM
we're in a lose-lose-lose situation this year. We can't cheer against the team, but the only way massive changes will be made is if they have a season so horrible that MLSE can not ignore it. If they show even a moderate improvement for the rest of this season, then we are stuck with Mariner for the next 2-3 years. Ticket prices will keep going up. Heck, JDG may even get an extension.
If they lose out, we could see a roster and front office overhaul, but the fans may also leave. And I don't think MLSE will have as much patience as an owner of a team that loses money. The fans will not support a total rebuilding project.
I think all we can do from here out is hope for s ome good weather, some entertaining games, and hope for another CCL run.

Macksam
06-18-2012, 09:00 PM
Right, so I'd agree with you in a sense that academy players have too large of a role in the first team currently.

BUT if you look at why they have their roles in the first place... it's not by design, it's because TFC didn't get the talent they need out of signings that were designed to be first team. Just because they are playing too much doesn't mean they shouldn't be on the roster.

Nothing more needs to be said than what ag says right here, and this shuts down any argument Pookie has over there being too many Canadians on the roster. We are starting academy guys like Morgan and Heny because they are the best we currently have. If they still need time to develop, TFC should cut guys Harden (American), Aaron Maund (American), Logan Emory (American), Aceval (Chilean) and replace them with better players.

Shakes McQueen
06-18-2012, 09:09 PM
Hey Macksam, how about explaining why you think Pookie is wrong without calling their argument "retarded". Thanks.

- Scott

Macksam
06-18-2012, 09:48 PM
Well, as of right now that Academy talent is essentially in our starting 11. Whereas Canadians on Vancouver's roster see 0 minutes of game time, ours play. As an example, Henry has more minutes that Frings. Granted, injuries to Frings have impacted that but the point is that they are taking on significant minutes. The point is that a very young Henry is being thrust into a role that he may or may not be ready for.

Again, like ag pointed out, this does not mean Canadians shouldn't be on our roster. Canadians not being in our starting lineup, maybe. However, Pookie clearly is using this as an argument for not having Canadians on the roster which doesn't make any sense. We should remove Canadians from the team because we have a few young ones starting for us? Where is the logic?


I take a slight issue with the robust local soccer community comment. We are talking about the GTA almost exclusively. 13 year olds aren't having their parents drive them in from London, Ontario 3 x a week. We are talking about plucking talent from an OSA development system that has fed the national team to the point that we have achieved the ranking of 75th in the world.


Why not pluck them from the USA where they have collectively reached the height of 14th in the world at one point?

What is he trying to say here? Should we stock our academy full of American kids? Is he talking about our senior roster? If that's the case, our roster isn't exclusively from the GTA. Also, our ranking has nothing to do with how TFC can develop players considering the team's academy is relatively new. TFC developing players will be their own doing and will have nothing to do with our current FIFA ranking.


Sadly, we are also talking about a hockey mad hotbed of development where the best "athletes"... perhaps directed by their parents... are playing hockey to the point where 208 current NHLers come from this Province. The hockey leagues in and around the GTA are serious business.

Sure, a lot of our athletes in the GTA choose hockey. However, a lot don't. I will say this though, a lot more top Canadian athletes will choose the sport in the future than top American ones per capita. Count on it. In essence, this argument works against you.


I think the Academy is a great development initiative. I think that you might identify players from here who could have a shot. The brochures sound terrific but I wouldn't bank on this as the system that will feed the first team exclusively for years and years. Not scouting for talent is a huge mistake.

Who said it exclusively would? I think a big source of talent in the future will come from developing within the GTA, but that doesn't mean TFC won't scout for foreign talent.



I agree and I'm not sure if you see the correlation. Let's walk with that scouting example.

If there is an available roster spot and there is a choice between promoting an Academy player and an American player how do we know we are making an informed decision if scouting is awful? Maybe the fact that we see Stinson (or Dunfield for that matter) is because no one has been anywhere in North America to see what's available.

I highly doubt you know that.


I go with you if we were talking spots 20-24 on the roster. But we aren't. We are talking about starters or active subs.

I am not at all confident that we have identified the strongest roster available.
Yeah, we need to get rid of some of the Americans on the team like Harden and Maund, and replace them with better players.

Is that better Scott?

Shakes McQueen
06-18-2012, 09:59 PM
Your first post was fine, aside from the extraneous insults. But yes, that is fine too - it's not exactly rocket science. You can disagree, without being disrespectful to the person.

- Scott

Macksam
06-18-2012, 10:05 PM
Your first post was fine, aside from the extraneous insults. But yes, that is fine too - it's not exactly rocket science. You can disagree, without being disrespectful to the person.

- Scott
Acknowledged.

Yeah, the Voyageur in me got too emotional.

Shakes McQueen
06-18-2012, 10:11 PM
It's all good. I appreciate it.

- Scott

Fort York Redcoat
06-19-2012, 06:41 AM
Well, as of right now that Academy talent is essentially in our starting 11. Whereas Canadians on Vancouver's roster see 0 minutes of game time, ours play. As an example, Henry has more minutes that Frings. Granted, injuries to Frings have impacted that but the point is that they are taking on significant minutes. The point is that a very young Henry is being thrust into a role that he may or may not be ready for.



I take a slight issue with the robust local soccer community comment. We are talking about the GTA almost exclusively. 13 year olds aren't having their parents drive them in from London, Ontario 3 x a week. We are talking about plucking talent from an OSA development system that has fed the national team to the point that we have achieved the ranking of 75th in the world.

Why not pluck them from the USA where they have collectively reached the height of 14th in the world at one point?

Sadly, we are also talking about a hockey mad hotbed of development where the best "athletes"... perhaps directed by their parents... are playing hockey to the point where 208 current NHLers come from this Province. The hockey leagues in and around the GTA are serious business.

I think the Academy is a great development initiative. I think that you might identify players from here who could have a shot. The brochures sound terrific but I wouldn't bank on this as the system that will feed the first team exclusively for years and years. Not scouting for talent is a huge mistake.



I agree and I'm not sure if you see the correlation. Let's walk with that scouting example.

If there is an available roster spot and there is a choice between promoting an Academy player and an American player how do we know we are making an informed decision if scouting is awful? Maybe the fact that we see Stinson (or Dunfield for that matter) is because no one has been anywhere in North America to see what's available.

I go with you if we were talking spots 20-24 on the roster. But we aren't. We are talking about starters or active subs.

I am not at all confident that we have identified the strongest roster available.


Between Ag and Mack they've made some bang-on statements but I appreciate you raising some talking points, pook. These unpopular questions must be asked since if the opposite were happening we Voyageur types would be snarling that this Academy is being wasted.

And in a sense you made the point that our Academy will quickly turn into a meat grinder if we force any kid that's close to talented onto the first team to make up for dropping the ball trade-wise.


I hope one thing we can agree on is that the potential for Canadian kids hinges on recreating an CHL-like pipeline where the most amount of kids from all over can find their ways easily to compete for spots they deserve.

Pookie
06-19-2012, 10:15 AM
Again, like ag pointed out, this does not mean Canadians shouldn't be on our roster. Canadians not being in our starting lineup, maybe. However, Pookie clearly is using this as an argument for not having Canadians on the roster which doesn't make any sense. We should remove Canadians from the team because we have a few young ones starting for us? Where is the logic?

That isn't my argument at all. My argument is to use the MLS roster rules effectively. We must have 3 Canadians on the roster. We must have at least 13 other players from either the US or Canada. Why not expect those 13 to be the best available?


What is he trying to say here? Should we stock our academy full of American kids? Is he talking about our senior roster? If that's the case, our roster isn't exclusively from the GTA. Also, our ranking has nothing to do with how TFC can develop players considering the team's academy is relatively new. TFC developing players will be their own doing and will have nothing to do with our current FIFA ranking.

I'm saying that marketing information aside, the Academy will draw players from about a 100 km radius of Toronto from an OSA system which to this point has contributed to our world ranking. It provides a glimpse of the quality of players available locally relative to the players that would be available in other parts of the world. The OSA is changing and in 2014 there will be a new development league that will start for U13 players. In 10 years, perhaps the story changes. Ready to wait 10 years?

This team has money. We should have the most robust scouting department in the league to supplement the odd player that will come through the Academy and be ready for an MLS spot.


Sure, a lot of our athletes in the GTA choose hockey. However, a lot don't. I will say this though, a lot more top Canadian athletes will choose the sport in the future than top American ones per capita. Count on it. In essence, this argument works against you.

So, I highlight that we live in a hockey mad market and you highlight that you think it will change in the future and therefore your feeling discounts the argument? Not sure I buy that.

Soccer participation rates are growing whereas hockey is declining. That's an objective fact you can bring forward to support your view. How many of those are recreational though? How many will play at a high level? And how many will have the support of their parents to forgo a college education to pursue a dream job paying $40k per year? Oscar Cordon was the poster boy for TFC-A a year ago. Used in their brochures and Anselmi stated they hoped to develop more like him. He's in the CSL, without an education to fall back on and may never see that $40k paycheck ever again.


Who said it exclusively would? I think a big source of talent in the future will come from developing within the GTA, but that doesn't mean TFC won't scout for foreign talent.

I highly doubt you know that.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that we aren't scouting the US in any significant fashion considering that our former North American scout told me so. I'm also pretty sure that the current TFC-Academy scouting program essentially amounts to a few Club Head coaches funneling their players through with contacts to our part time scouting network in order to prop up their clubs. BTW, if you live in Brampton you have a great shot at getting your U12-13 player into the system based on contacts.


Yeah, we need to get rid of some of the Americans on the team like Harden and Maund, and replace them with better players.

Yes. We need to manage our Domestic roster much better... including the US portion.

Happy to carry on this conversation if you want to talk about objective measures and not get into a Canadian vs American national debate. Objectively speaking, this is about roster management.

MLS Rules State that you must build your team with 16 Domestic Players, 8 International Players and of those, 3 can be Designated Players (give or take given that some slots are tradable). It further states that Canadian teams must have a minimum of 3 Canadians on their rosters and for the US teams Canadians count as International.

If you were building a team those are the rules of the league in which you operate. We are always asking how come we haven't been able to get results, well, how we compose our roster is an objective factor that must be looked at.

Let's look at the Domestic make-up of our roster:

3 Canadian Slots
1. JDG
2. Cann
3. Morgan

13 Remaining Domestic Slots

4. Dunfield (Canadian)
5. Henry (Canadian)
6. Stinson (Canadian)
7. Cordon (Canadian)
8. Lindsay (Canadian)
9. Makubuya (Canadian)
10. Roberts (Canadian)
11. Avila (USA)
12. Emory (USA)
13. Hall (USA)
14. Harden (USA)
15. Maund (USA)
16. Silva (USA)

Now, we have effectively said that players numbered 4 - 10 are better than any available US option. Henry maybe. The rest?

Hard to say. Now let's look at the use of the USA portion of that domestic rule. Avila, Hall and Silva are arguably the best out of that bunch. Are they the best USA players available? Hard to say since Nick Dasovic was our NA Scout last year and he told me he was more of a frequent flyer than a scout. He replaced Tim Regan who is no longer with the club.

Look at Houston's roster since we play them next. Look through that domestic roster and you'll see names like Bruin, Davis, Ching. Their one and only Canadian, Andre Hainault is arguably better than any of ours. He better be because he counts as an International slot.

Which makes stockpiling Canadian assets... given the roster rules... a curious and risky move. We have made close to 70 roster moves (trades, releasing players, etc) since we began. Of those, only 6 moves involved a Canadian being moved to a team south of the border. In fact, of the 16 MLS USA based teams in the league only 8 Canadians in total are employed.

That means that based on the way we opted to build our roster, we only have a few tradable assets. Hall, Harden, Emory, Avila, Maund, Silva. They don't take up an international slot. If we were to trade one of our Canadians, who is tradable? Morgan. Perhaps. Cann? Perhaps. Henry? Perhaps. Do any of those 9 players listed, our most tradable assets, fetch you anything of significance to build your roster?

Set aside the Domestic rule, look at our 3 DPs.

Are they they best use of that slot?

I'd argue that a healthy Frings and a healthy Koevermans are indeed amongst the best DPs in the MLS. However, a big part of that argument relies on their health and they haven't been healthy. Frings has just 40 mins more than Aceval and Terry Dunfield has over 100 more minutes that Koevermans. Ryan Johnson has more minutes then both of our DPs combined.

I won't even touch the use of the DP slot on JDG. Hasn't worked out.

On the International front, we do ok here. Johnson (Jamaica), Plata (Ecuador), Soolsma (Netherlands) and perhaps Eckersley (England) have been solid contributors.

Trade value is limited to available international spots on other teams.


Look, I'm open to other views. Convince me that the 3rd Most Expensive Roster is effectively managed considering Domestic and International Rules. Convince me that we have flexibility to move forward and bring in new assets via trade and player identification. Convince me that our scouting department is bigger in the entire US than it is in the GTA? (hint, it isn't). Convince me that while other MLS teams belong to wyscout.com (along with big name International Teams) we have decided not to be a part of that International network because we have a better way to identify international players. Convince me that when our 3 DPs leave in 2 years or retire due to injury, we have a back up plan in place?

I want to believe. Show me.

Just One Man
06-19-2012, 10:40 AM
Man does that stadium ever look impressive on television (and in real life as well I presume).

When you get a nice tight shot of the supporter's end, it really looks like a Premiership quality stadium.

jrober38
06-19-2012, 10:59 AM
That isn't my argument at all. My argument is to use the MLS roster rules effectively. We must have 3 Canadians on the roster. We must have at least 13 other players from either the US or Canada. Why not expect those 13 to be the best available?

I want to believe. Show me.

This is a fantastic post that pretty clearly outlines many of the problems with this team, and the way it's been built.

Canadians aren't valuable in MLS because they're not valuable to American teams where they count as valuable international players. However, for some reason, we've built our roster around Canadian players, which in other words means that we've built a roster with a bunch of players no one else in the league wants.

On top of that, I think we've gone after the wrong type of DPs. As you pointed out, Kooevermans and Frings are useful if they're on the field, but their health hasn't allowed them to play. Then there's JDG who simply has been a disaster.

In a league of limited financial resources, we've invested our assets into a bunch of players we can't trade, and DPs who don't help us score or keep the ball out of our net on a regular basis. In a league where reliable goal scorers are worth their weight in gold, we have arguably the most offensively inept team in the league, mostly because we've invested almost all of our money into 2 defensive midfielders who don't create any offense.

Our roster is quite simply a disaster that needs to be totally blown up and rebuilt from the ground up. We need a reliable goal scorer whose fitness can be counted on, a play maker who is capable of making everyone else around him better, and a defensive leader to solidify things at the back. Until we get those things, and a better group of role players around them, TFC will remain an MLS bottom feeder.

Fort York Redcoat
06-19-2012, 11:19 AM
Our roster is quite simply a disaster that needs to be totally blown up and rebuilt from the ground up. We need a reliable goal scorer whose fitness can be counted on, a play maker who is capable of making everyone else around him better, and a defensive leader to solidify things at the back. Until we get those things, and a better group of role players around them, TFC will remain an MLS bottom feeder.

Totally. Blown. Up?

DK has been hurt. Now he's better. His scoring rate. It's reliable. That's a DP if he stays healthy. You don't drop that.
Frings has moved all over the back and the mid. It's not like he doesn't know where to play. He's trying to strengthen those around him. Leadership. You don't drop that. That's a DP.



http://i.qkme.me/3571m2.jpg

Pookie
06-19-2012, 11:31 AM
Totally. Blown. Up?

DK has been hurt. Now he's better. His scoring rate. It's reliable. That's a DP if he stays healthy. You don't drop that.
Frings has moved all over the back and the mid. It's not like he doesn't know where to play. He's trying to strengthen those around him. Leadership. You don't drop that. That's a DP.





I don't think you blow it up. I think you compartmentalize it and look at it as 3 categories:

Domestic, International and DP

Our International component is ok. We could get getting more out of the slot taken by Aceval. Another question is whether we can find a reliable Domestic keeper since Frei and Kocic are International. Doing so would free up 2 International slots which could be used for "out" players. These are easily solved through scouting and player identification.

Domestic roster blow up is where I think we need to focus. Our US contingent is not strong at all relative to the size of the US talent pool. Canadian contingent is not strong relative to the Canadian talent pool. Honestly, if we are required to have 3 Canadians they should either be the best available (ie. Will Johnson-like) which makes them both effective and tradable. Or occupy non-starting roles if they can't beat a US player for the job. We also do not have as many scouts in the US as we have in the GTA working for the Academy. That's wrong. We cannot hope to identify the best available players for spots 4 through 16 if we don't know what's out there. Poach unsigned MLS Academy 18 year olds, scour the NCAA, look at US (or Canadian) players playing overseas for lower division teams. Leave no stone unturned.

On the DP front, this is in need of review. Healthy yes, 2 great players. But if they aren't healthy, would it be better to find a younger player who could fill these roles?

jrober38
06-19-2012, 11:39 AM
Totally. Blown. Up?

DK has been hurt. Now he's better. His scoring rate. It's reliable. That's a DP if he stays healthy. You don't drop that.
Frings has moved all over the back and the mid. It's not like he doesn't know where to play. He's trying to strengthen those around him. Leadership. You don't drop that. That's a DP.

They haven't stayed healthy.

They're 35 and 33 years old, and are both on their last legs. If you can't rely on a DP to be on the field, then they shouldn't be a DP. In a league where talent is limited by financial restrictions, you're at a massive disadvantage relative to other teams in the league if their DPs are consistently on the field and ours are consistently in the trainer's room.

This team desperately needs offense, and none of our DPs provide that on a game to game basis. Again, because of financial restrictions, and how hard it is to find reliable goal scorers that earn < $300k a year, the big money signings need to be on guys who score goals regularly or create chances for lesser talents to score goals.

Fort York Redcoat
06-19-2012, 11:40 AM
I don't think you blow it up. I think you compartmentalize it and look at it as 3 categories:

Domestic, International and DP

Our International component is ok. We could get getting more out of the slot taken by Aceval. Another question is whether we can find a reliable Domestic keeper since Frei and Kocic are International. Doing so would free up 2 International slots which could be used for "out" players. These are easily solved through scouting and player identification.

Domestic roster blow up is where I think we need to focus. Our US contingent is not strong at all relative to the size of the US talent pool. Canadian contingent is not strong relative to the Canadian talent pool. Honestly, if we are required to have 3 Canadians they should either be the best available (ie. Will Johnson-like) which makes them both effective and tradable. Or occupy non-starting roles if they can't beat a US player for the job. We also do not have as many scouts in the US as we have in the GTA working for the Academy. That's wrong. We cannot hope to identify the best available players for spots 4 through 16 if we don't know what's out there. Poach unsigned MLS Academy 18 year olds, scour the NCAA, look at US (or Canadian) players playing overseas for lower division teams. Leave no stone unturned.

On the DP front, this is in need of review. Healthy yes, 2 great players. But if they aren't healthy, would it be better to find a younger player who could fill these roles?

Yes. No pills needed here.

The smallest problem has the biggest price tag. I think we keep our 2 outta 3 DP and will love if it's a CB so we can see Full-Tilt Frings that isn't always feeling he has to look behind him. DK will last until we address the larger part of our raster that costs a lot less.

Fort York Redcoat
06-19-2012, 11:44 AM
They haven't stayed healthy.

They're 35 and 33 years old, and are both on their last legs. If you can't rely on a DP to be on the field, then they shouldn't be a DP. In a league where talent is limited by financial restrictions, you're at a massive disadvantage relative to other teams in the league if their DPs are consistently on the field and ours are consistently in the trainer's room.

Yes they are old. If they were young they wouldn't be here. And please let's not pretend that their time off was because they both were brittle. Frings gave himself to save a goal. These are both DP's you can build a team around and we haven't found the personnel that can work together with them yet. That's the bigger, second challenge. The domestic players.




3 Canadian Slots
1. JDG
2. Cann
3. Morgan

13 Remaining Domestic Slots

4. Dunfield (Canadian)
5. Henry (Canadian)
6. Stinson (Canadian)
7. Cordon (Canadian)
8. Lindsay (Canadian)
9. Makubuya (Canadian)
10. Roberts (Canadian)
11. Avila (USA)
12. Emory (USA)
13. Hall (USA)
14. Harden (USA)
15. Maund (USA)
16. Silva (USA)

Beach_Red
06-19-2012, 11:45 AM
I don't think you blow it up. I think you compartmentalize it and look at it as 3 categories:

Domestic, International and DP



A good way to look at it. It also seems like TFC had a divided FO along with this division of roster. Klinsmann found the two DPs and then some combination of Cochrane, Mariner and Winter filled out the other two categories. It does seem like no one was in a position to be looking at the team as a whole.

jrober38
06-19-2012, 11:58 AM
We're 1-10 because there are a LOT of issues.

Look at any part of the roster and you'll find an area that needs massive improvement.

Last in the league in scoring, second last in goals allowed, last in goal differential.

Those statistics suggest the assembled team is not good enough to compete, and needs to be blown up and rebuilt.

ryan
06-19-2012, 12:03 PM
blow up the club...figuratively...or literally?


sometimes, I'm not so sure.

Soccerpro
06-19-2012, 06:20 PM
The team is a disaster for all of the reasons you mentioned. They can't score and they can't defend.

No new coach is going to change that, especially when the new coach is our former head scout and director of player development who hand picked almost all of these players.

TFC's issue is that they're built the wrong way. They've allocated all of they're money into players at positions who don't help them score or defend (I'm oversimplifying), and accordingly the results are terrible.

To succeed in MLS, you need a reliable goal scorer, a creative midfielder who can make the players around him better and a defender to keep the back line organized. We don't have any of those things. Kooevermans is slow and out of shape and De Guzman and Frings are defensive midfielders who offer next to nothing going forward and aren't active enough at this stage of their careers to make up for our problems at the back.

Regardless who coaches us, we won't be able to overcome these fundamental problems.

This +1

jloome
06-19-2012, 06:39 PM
In a league where reliable goal scorers are worth their weight in gold, we have arguably the most offensively inept team in the league, mostly because we've invested almost all of our money into 2 defensive midfielders who don't create any offense.

True. And in the meantime, Vancouver has managed to nail down so much talent, Eric Hassli can't make the starting rotation, Long Tan is on loan and the let Lee Nguyen, the Vietnamese-American forward, go for a pick to New England. Le Toux, Camilo (whom we could have had), Mattocks, Hassli, Atiba Harris (out for most of two seasons, without impact).

It's astonishing; they've been as professional as we've been inept.

I think Koevermans is a decent DP striker. I suspect Frings is out of gas. DeGuzman has been a disaster. I would have preferred a strong central defender to either of the latter two players.

Pookie
06-19-2012, 06:48 PM
A good way to look at it. It also seems like TFC had a divided FO along with this division of roster. Klinsmann found the two DPs and then some combination of Cochrane, Mariner and Winter filled out the other two categories. It does seem like no one was in a position to be looking at the team as a whole.

My bet... and this is said without any knowledge of whether a divide on player identification existed... was that Cochrane heavily influenced the domestic component Winter/de Klerk were focused on the International side while Mariner supported both directions.

Cochrane's CSA ties, his involvement in the Academy and the position he was given to negotiate the Canadian quota with the MLS have me thinking that. Winter's involvement in bringing in Soolsma, Martina before that have me thinking that is where he input came from.

narduch
06-19-2012, 06:50 PM
We're 1-10 because there are a LOT of issues.

Look at any part of the roster and you'll find an area that needs massive improvement.

Last in the league in scoring, second last in goals allowed, last in goal differential.

Those statistics suggest the assembled team is not good enough to compete, and needs to be blown up and rebuilt.

Agreed.

TFC will more than likely battle for the worst MLS regular season ever.

narduch
06-19-2012, 06:53 PM
Cochrane's CSA ties, his involvement in the Academy and the position he was given to negotiate the Canadian quota with the MLS have me thinking that. Winter's involvement in bringing in Soolsma, Martina before that have me thinking that is where he input came from.

But Cochrane wasn't involved on the player side AT ALL when he worked for the CSA.

In fact he wasn't even hired by TFC to be involved in player personnel decisions. But someone he has weaseled his way into a position of power at TFC.

Pookie
06-19-2012, 06:57 PM
Sure did create a job for himself. My comment regarding CSA ties has to do with how we are managing our roster in promoting local talent to the first team and our new business direction with TFC-A.