Rate Winter: Overall

[__wowza]

PLEASE READ BEFORE RATING!
(it'll make everything a hell of a lot easier)

Alright, so Winter's gone. For that reason, we're going to be doing an overall thread (due to the lack of action I was going to do a combination May/June anyways). There's one new category added here, so be mindful of that. Each category gets a specific rating, from 5 (being the highest) to 1 (being the lowest). To calculate the average rating, just add your total up and divide by 5, if it's got a decimal point at the end of it, you can round either up or down based on the simple question "did Winter perform up to your expectations during his time here". Afterward, you post your total rating on the poll, from 5 - 1.

here's the criteria:

TACTICS
how did you feel about the tactical choices made?
what about his starters? subs? formation?

RESULTS
at the end of the day, how did we do in terms of results? did we tie games we should've lost? lost games we should've won? etc.

EFFICIENCY
how effective was the coach in utilizing the players he has?
did he play some players out of position? did he have a reason to?

COMMUNICATION
how effective was the coach in explaining his outlook and choices in the paper / on torontofc.ca / on TFCtv / in post match interviews?

GOALS
did winter instill the "attractive, attack minded" game he said he was going to?
were the trades and tactics he employed reflective of that?

TRADES & MISC
were the trades made productive or counter-productive?
did he fly off the handle at get a 4 game ban?
was he making eyes at your wife/girlfriend/same-sex partner?

A general guideline: This is a final assessment. Unlike the other threads, a low approval rating will deem his time here a failure, a higher rating will deem his time here as a success. Please note that this is not a comparison of Winter against our other coaches. For added information, clicking on each month will bring you to that month's thread. For context, let's take a look at how winter performed here on a month by month breakdown, as always, red denotes a cup victory:

(http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?27878-Winter-Approval-Rating-April-2011)77.61% (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?27878-Winter-Approval-Rating-April-2011)APRIL 2011 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?27878-Winter-Approval-Rating-April-2011): T/T/T/L/T/W/L: 4 points out of a possible 18
46.60% MAY 2011 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?28251-Winter-Approval-Rating-May-2011): W/W/L/T/T/T/L: 5 points out of a possible 15
63.55% JUNE 2011 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?28658-Winter-Approval-Rating-June-2011):T/T/T/L/L/W: 6 points out of a possible 18
83.44% JULY 2011 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?29100-Winter-Approval-Rating-July-2011):W/L/L/L/L/W/T: 1 point out of a possible 15
*3.21 / Rating: C AUGUST 2011 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?29748-Winter-Approval-Rating-September-2011): W/T/W/W/L/L/T 5 points out of a possible 12
*3.76 / Rating: B SEPT 2011 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?29748-Winter-Approval-Rating-September-2011):W/L/W/W/L/T 6 points out of a possible 9
*3.95 / Rating: B+ OCTOBER 2011 (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?30014-Winter-Approval-Rating-October-2011&highlight=rate+winter): T/T/W/T 3 points out of a possible 9
*2.97 / Rating: D+ MARCH 2012 (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?31281-Rate-Winter-March-2012&highlight=Rate+Winter): T/W/L/L/T 0 points out of a possible 6
*1.72 / Rating: F APRIL 2012 (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?31629-Rate-Winter-April-2012&highlight=Rate+Winter%3A+April+2012): L/L/L/L/L 0 points out of a possible 12

[ManUtd4ever]

In all honesty, Winter should have two separate polls; MLS and CCL.

In MLS play, I rate him a 1 star.

In VC/CCL play, I rate him a 4 star.

[TOBOR !]

Nah. Not going to do this.

The cook was preparing a nice meal, only to have the fat manager demand to be served now.

Rather than wait a bit, he's sent the lad home and told the dishwasher to finish it.

Quality food (and everything else) takes time.

[PopePouri]

For overall contribution and vision to the club: 4

For tactics and player selection: 2

[sulfur]

The other question is... was Mariner not officially the person in charge of player acquisition? That's what his job description said he did.

[Just One Man]

30/114 possibe points. And he was even trending downwards!

I'd give him a zero if I could.

[Oldtimer]

Somehow it feels unfair to kick a man when he's down.

[TOBOR !]

... or judging him on an unfinished work :

Students - you have an hour to complete the exam - GO !

Alright students, hand in your papers

But that was never an hour ! That was only 15 minutes !

Too bad... oh, look, you only answered two questions correctly - you fail.

[T-boy]

Nah. Not going to do this.

The cook was preparing a nice meal, only to have the fat manager demand to be served now.

Rather than wait a bit, he's sent the lad home and told the dishwasher to finish it.

Quality food (and everything else) takes time.

I'm glad I don't eat at your restaurant - I'd have starved to death by now!

[TOBOR !]

I'm glad I don't eat at your restaurant - I'd have starved to death by now!

That's OK - we don't serve your kind anyway ! :D

[T-boy]

Yeah yeah! You're not getting your tip! :p

[ArmenJBX]

3 Stars

Aron Winter came in to do two jobs. One was to instill a football structure in this organization that is professional-grade, from first-team to academy. The second was to acquire talent capable of playing in Major League Soccer, and building a team that could make the playoffs.

In the first regard, Aron Winter did a 5-star job. He oversaw the creation of a true Toronto FC academy; he changed the culture of the team and gave this team a formation/style to call their own. As a man, he was a gentlemen, and was always professional.

In the second regard, Aron Winter did a 1-star job. He did not do the job of a first-team head coach and create success. His attempt to change the entirety of MLS in an attempt to find success for Toronto FC was not received by MLS, and as such, he failed to win here - 7 wins in 44 games is not acceptable.

So, if you take into account the GM-type job he did, and the head coach-type job he did, I give him 3 stars. A perfectly average coach. He was never a detriment to this team, but he was also never a real asset. He did the job he was supposed to do, in giving this club an identity, but couldn't make it stick.

In years time, however, I anticipate that the groundwork Aron Winter put in in Toronto will be looked back at fondly, if future successes come from his work with the academy/4-3-3/positive football, etc.

Also, you can't fault the guy, he took us to the CCL semi-finals and won 2 Canadian championships. Technically he's our most successful coach.

[jloome]

I find it impossible to vote objectively on this. We know too little about why things didn't work out, up to and including the day-to-day politics of the job. Maybe he was as bad as his league record; maybe he was as better-than-average as his cup record.

Who knows?

[spark]

Nah. Not going to do this.

The cook was preparing a nice meal, only to have the fat manager demand to be served now.

Rather than wait a bit, he's sent the lad home and told the dishwasher to finish it.

Quality food (and everything else) takes time.

Haha this could be fun. Because we could look at it like a line cook was brought in to do the job of an executive chef.

We've all had slow-cooked meals before and know what it takes, what are the ingredients and how it's supposed to look (taste, smell etc ...).

He butchered the meat terribly, is using all the wrong ingredients and isn't even following a recipe. The meal smells disgusting and letting it simmer any longer isn't going to make it taste any better. The verdict is in - the meal sucks and we shouldn't be serving it to anyone. Thanks for coming out 'chef' but you are in over your head. Be thankful Gordon Ramsay wasn't your boss!

[Pigfynn]

Talked to an old family friend from Holland yesterday. He's been watching and playing for over 50 years..just saying he knows the game and he knows and has watched Winter.

First thing he said to me was "ya, that was never going to work out, Aron is too nice of a guy to be a manager"

After reading JMO's article it only brings it home even more...Winter was a soft, warm manager at TFC. It's a fiery game and men need to be led by a leader.

It's fine to be the arm around the shoulder type manager if you also have the hair dryer in your back pocket, not sure Winter did.

[DoubleUp]

Talked to an old family friend from Holland yesterday. He's been watching and playing for over 50 years..just saying he knows the game and he knows and has watched Winter.

First thing he said to me was "ya, that was never going to work out, Aron is too nice of a guy to be a manager"

After reading JMO's article it only brings it home even more...Winter was a soft, warm manager at TFC. It's a fiery game and men need to be led by a leader.

It's fine to be the arm around the shoulder type manager if you also have the hair dryer in your back pocket, not sure Winter did.

This!. Like I said Winter was the best technical manager we've had, but the motivation aspect I do believe mariner is the stronger of the two.

But to me losing winter as coach is not the real loss, the real loss is not having winter involved in the development of TFC's football....period.

[ArmenJBX]

Haha this could be fun. Because we could look at it like a line cook was brought in to do the job of an executive chef.

We've all had slow-cooked meals before and know what it takes, what are the ingredients and how it's supposed to look (taste, smell etc ...).

He butchered the meat terribly, is using all the wrong ingredients and isn't even following a recipe. The meal smells disgusting and letting it simmer any longer isn't going to make it taste any better. The verdict is in - the meal sucks and we shouldn't be serving it to anyone. Thanks for coming out 'chef' but you are in over your head. Be thankful Gordon Ramsay wasn't your boss!

Sparky, there's quite a few line chefs who win Hell's Kitchen, you know!

And to keep the analogy going: Chef Winter was working under someone with no food background, running a restaurant. He took orders from Flava Flav, who told everyone he would bring the flavour this year but the end result was simply distasteful.

[Beach_Red]

Like every other guy who tried to manage here, he never had a chance.

Maybe the new ownership will change things, if not maybe the first question that should be asked of all future managers is, "How well do you work in dysfunctional organizations?" some people can get more done under those circumstances than others...

[123 elite]

... or judging him on an unfinished work :

Students - you have an hour to complete the exam - GO !

Alright students, hand in your papers

But that was never an hour ! That was only 15 minutes !

Too bad... oh, look, you only answered two questions correctly - you fail.


It seemed fair. You were answering all the wrong questions and writing all the answers on your desk.

[OgtheDim]

I'm a firm believer in Likert items over 1-5 ratings.

[Shakes McQueen]

I find it impossible to vote objectively on this. We know too little about why things didn't work out, up to and including the day-to-day politics of the job. Maybe he was as bad as his league record; maybe he was as better-than-average as his cup record.

Who knows?

I'm in the same spot. Nice guy, classy exit - not much more I can say about him this season. I thought what he was building looked promising last season, and appeared to be bearing fruit during our pre-season CCL run - but it all went to shit after that.

I don't see another way it could end when your team starts the season 1-9. That's the kind of start you might expect during the first year of a complete teardown, but that isn't where we were supposed to be by anyone's reckoning. While I think Anselmi and Co. need to finally share in the consequences of this team's repeated failures, I don't think Winter is absolved of guilt either.

For the two V-Cups, the CCL run, and the league impotence, he earns a 2/5 from me. Without knowledge of backroom politics, all I can judge are the results - and those results are worth about a 4/10 to me.

- Scott

[CSO_BBTB]

Close but no cigar. It's easy to play like Ajax when you have a much bigger budget than most of the teams in your division. He had to make some adjustments on the defensive side of things to reflect the fact he was working with something closer to an Excelsior Rotterdam setup in salary budget and personel terms. He wasn't able to so it's time to move on.

[JuliquE]

I think it was Prizby that I've seen making the point about no manager in MLS, upon being given three years, failing to make the playoffs and I don't think Winter would have been the first.

If we look at RSL, they were crap, to start, under Jason Kreis. Staying with this comparison: after they had properly established themselves as a solid side in MLS and after their defeat in the CCL final, I believe they struggled to get up for regular season matches. I think that we had the same struggles and with a side not nearly as cohesive, having only half of a season and one pre-season together.

For me, this was premature and depressing.

I'll give Winter a 3, overall.

[Oldtimer]

^ Kreis never would have happened here in Toronto. Season tickets need to be sold, and fans here get impatient.

That being said, I don't think we had Jason Kreis II here, more like Ruud Gullit II. It happens all the time in MLS that foreign coaches don't work out. Those that do, tend to have played in the league or have been an assistant here (hello, Paul Mariner? Let's hope so).

This league is like no other. Trades, allocations, the draft, the parity, the mix of superstars and relatively poor players, the roster restrictions and especially the salary cap make it hard for any foreign coach to succeed. You can't just buy players to get yourself out of trouble.

[Beach_Red]

^ Yes, a Kreis never would have happened here because it starts with ownership. The vision for RSL started with the owner (after a few years in the league learning it) and he implemented it himself. Kreis was not a stranger to him and he hired a GM who was not a coach-in-waiting, but another part of the management team.

What TFC really needs is someone who can work well in dysfunctional organizations and that usually means someone with a lot of experience.

[TOBOR !]

^ Kreis never would have happened here in Toronto. Season tickets need to be sold, and fans here get impatient.

That being said, I don't think we had Jason Kreis II here, more like Ruud Gullit II. It happens all the time in MLS that foreign coaches don't work out. Those that do, tend to have played in the league or have been an assistant here (hello, Paul Mariner? Let's hope so).

This league is like no other. Trades, allocations, the draft, the parity, the mix of superstars and relatively poor players, the roster restrictions and especially the salary cap make it hard for any foreign coach to succeed. You can't just buy players to get yourself out of trouble.

I don't think it's so much to do with just buying the players you want so much as it is even being able to find them.

How many US / Canadian trained players are there familiar with Winter's system ?

No shortage of them in Holland or throughout Europe, methinks. However, when roster restrictions demand that you find the bulk of your squad locally, there's not much selection.

Money doesn't really enter into it, save for the one thing it can do - be used to build the school where a constant supply of such players can be groomed.

[JuliquE]

^ Kreis never would have happened here in Toronto. Season tickets need to be sold, and fans here get impatient.

That being said, I don't think we had Jason Kreis II here, more like Ruud Gullit II. It happens all the time in MLS that foreign coaches don't work out. Those that do, tend to have played in the league or have been an assistant here (hello, Paul Mariner? Let's hope so).

This league is like no other. Trades, allocations, the draft, the parity, the mix of superstars and relatively poor players, the roster restrictions and especially the salary cap make it hard for any foreign coach to succeed. You can't just buy players to get yourself out of trouble.
My comparing the two sets of circumstances was not to say that our situation was the exact same in every way. Rather, I was highlighting a couple very specific parallels: crap, to start -- post CCL slump.

I went on to underline the fact that our boys have had far less time together than RSL's, which would make sense out of the fact that we struggled a bit more than they did.

Second half of last season was really when the bulk of our team was formed. After this, we had the pre-season, a deep run in CCL, followed by a nine game losing streak (many could have been wins/draws; we weren't playing horribly and it seemed more of a mental issue). I would have been curious to see where we would have wound up, at the season's end and had a close eye on next season's first five or so results.

[spark]

My comparing the two sets of circumstances was not to say that our situation was the exact same in every way. Rather, I was highlighting a couple very specific parallels: crap, to start -- post CCL slump.

I disagree - there is no comparison to RSL whatsoever. Their post CCL 'slump' didn't have two losses on the bounce until three months after their loss. They finished the season with 53 points. They started crap under Kreis because he was appointed in May and had no prep or preseason (unlike Winter). He also made solid trades/moves within six-eight months that built the core of his team that remains to this day.

[JuliquE]

I disagree - there is no comparison to RSL whatsoever. Their post CCL 'slump' didn't have two losses on the bounce until three months after their loss. They finished the season with 53 points. They started crap under Kreis because he was appointed in May and had no prep or preseason (unlike Winter). He also made solid trades/moves within six-eight months that built the core of his team that remains to this day.
Bit of a stretch, that.

I think you're splitting hairs; Winter's pre-season was not arranged how he'd have wanted it -- he was hamstrung by JDG's contract -- brought in with issues brewing between the team's key/star player and the FO -- he was tasked to do a lot more than come in and sort out the first team, which divided his attention. I point all this out because I, too, can justify this and that about the circumstances during his tenure at the helm. They were crap to start, which was all I was pointing out and I believe Kreis, himself, made a point about how the motivation was in the locker room, following their CCL final defeat.

I had already acknowledged that our situation was worse and provided a bit of context to explain that. I'm not claiming to know all about how things should have gone, but I do believe that what I've pointed out deserves some consideration.. consideration lost on MLSE, I'm afraid.

[spark]

ot arranged how he'd have wanted it -- he was hamstrung by JDG's contract -- brought in with issues brewing between the team's key/star player and the FO -- he was tasked to do a lot more than come in and sort out the first team, which divided his attention. I point all this out because I, too, can justify this and that about the circumstances during his tenure at the helm. They were crap to start, which was all I was pointing out and I believe Kreis, himself, made a point about how the motivation was in the locker room, following their CCL final defeat.

I had already acknowledged that our situation was worse and provided a bit of context to explain that. I'm not claiming to know all about how things should have gone, but I do believe that what I've pointed out deserves some consideration.. consideration lost on MLSE, I'm afraid.

Ah sorry I missed your first post and jumped to conclusions - totally got you point wrong. My bad!

[Chevy]

^^ Wow. Some actual productive discussion, mutual respect and pleasantries on this board lately.

Wonder why that is? :)

[Shakes McQueen]

^^ Wow. Some actual productive discussion, mutual respect and pleasantries on this board lately.

Wonder why that is? :)

What's done is done. Let's not take digs at people who aren't here to reply, please.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

I don't think it's so much to do with just buying the players you want so much as it is even being able to find them.

How many US / Canadian trained players are there familiar with Winter's system ?

No shortage of them in Holland or throughout Europe, methinks. However, when roster restrictions demand that you find the bulk of your squad locally, there's not much selection.

Money doesn't really enter into it, save for the one thing it can do - be used to build the school where a constant supply of such players can be groomed.

But the obvious conterpoint to that is - if you haven't found the players for your lunchpail "foundation" going forward, why are you adding expensive, veteran garnish in the form of Frings and Koevermans already? Those aren't long term acquisitions, they are 2-3 year rentals who will likely retire after that.

I supported Winter all last season while a small, vocal group here had already made up their mind that he was a bust, because I agreed with the idea that he needed time to put his stamp on the roster, and bring in some players who were more suited to the system he wanted to play. However, all along I said that this year would be the season for results to start showing - no more five year plans, in a league that clearly doesn't need them. And after 10 games, the verdict was pretty clearly in on this team, as it stands now.

Anselmi and the other execs need to take responsibility for their failings, but so does Winter. This was his team.

- Scott

[TOBOR !]

But the obvious conterpoint to that is - if you haven't found the players for your lunchpail "foundation" going forward, why are you adding expensive, veteran garnish in the form of Frings and Koevermans already? Those aren't long term acquisitions, they are 2-3 year rentals who will likely retire after that.

- Scott

The logical counter to your counterpoint is that he needed to bring in vets schooled in his dogma in order to a) help disseminate his preachings, and b) bring about results.

It seems that even though he was mandated with bringing in a culture and overhauling the team, he must have been aware that he was going to have to try and bring in results at the same time.

Ergo, Koevermans and Frings for a couple of years + the academy.

[Shakes McQueen]

It seems that even though he was mandated with bringing in a culture and overhauling the team, he must have been aware that he was going to have to try and bring in results at the same time..

I don't think he was mandated with anything but results in a reasonable timeframe - how he chose to do that was his own design.

We aren't talking about the NHL, where the only way to create a decent team is patiently over several years, through drafting. He made a bunch of significant roster moves last season, then went 1-9 this season - our one win coming against a similarly poor side.

If he couldn't do all he wanted to, due to interference by those above him, I'd love to hear it as it would definitely colour my opinion greatly. But in the absence of that (aside from the reshuffle the week before our last game, which was pretty clearly an MLSE move), I think it's fair that he take responsibility for this historic low.

- Scott

[jabbronies]

Listening to the scrum interviews today I think I can pin point why Winter wasn't getting results from his players - He wasn't vocal enough. Some players need someone constantly yelling at them, be it positive or negative - but they just need a voice in their ear. reporters took notice that today's practice was much more lively and that Mariner seemed more vocal than what is the norm.

DeClerk was Winters voice - but I think he was too negative. Did Winter finally open his mouth in the last couple weeks and got a couple results out of the team? Too little too late obviously. It would suck if that was all that we needed this whole time...just a mouth during practice and at the games.

[TOBOR !]

I don't think he was mandated with anything but results in a reasonable timeframe - how he chose to do that was his own design

His own design, yes, sure, but the assignment was bring in a philosophy and impart it on the senior club. I'm not sure where the Academy fit in initially - whether there was always the intent or this was part of Winter's plan.

But since you brought it up, what do you think is a reasonable time frame to have the academy up, producing graduates, and the senior side producing results / challenging for the playoffs ?

18 months ?

[ManUtd4ever]

His own design, yes, sure, but the assignment was bring in a philosophy and impart it on the senior club. I'm not sure where the Academy fit in initially - whether there was always the intent or this was part of Winter's plan.

But since you brought it up, what do you think is a reasonable time frame to have the academy up, producing graduates, and the senior side producing results / challenging for the playoffs ?

18 months ?

The process could take at least five years, which is why a modified approach was required for the first team in the interim.

I agree with Shakes in that 18 months is a reasonable time in which to expect results for the first team though. Perhaps the expectation of a contending club within that timeframe is overly optimistic, but 7 wins in 44 games and setting records of futility for consecutive losses/negative goal differential isn't remotely close to acceptable.

It would have been ideal if Winter decided to remain with the organization to oversee the Academy along with Rongen, but ultimately, he wasn't the right choice as a manager.

[TOBOR !]

I agree with Shakes in that 18 months is a reasonable time in which to expect results for the first team though. Perhaps the expectation of a contending club within that timeframe is overly optimistic, but 7 wins in 44 games and setting records of futility for consecutive losses/negative goal differential isn't remotely close to acceptable.

It would have been ideal if Winter decided to remain with the organization to oversee the Academy along with Rongen, but ultimately, he wasn't the right choice as a manager.

Alright. I agree that the overall futility is probably what prompted Aron's premature dismissal, but you could hardly blame him for not staying to run the academy.

[Shakes McQueen]

His own design, yes, sure, but the assignment was bring in a philosophy and impart it on the senior club. I'm not sure where the Academy fit in initially - whether there was always the intent or this was part of Winter's plan.

But since you brought it up, what do you think is a reasonable time frame to have the academy up, producing graduates, and the senior side producing results / challenging for the playoffs ?

18 months ?

Having the Academy up and producing usable assets is a longer term prospect, though. Obviously he isn't going to chance the face of Canadian youth soccer in 18 months. But his first priority, like every other team in the league, is to field a competitive first team.

The mandate was never to take several more years to build an infrastructure throughout the entire organization, and then we can judge him if talented kids start coming out of the system. That will be a five year plan, if not more, and that's assuming it ever bears fruit at all. In the meantime, the expectation was to field a competitive team through the same means as every other franchise - international scouting, domestic drafting, and clever DP signings.

It looked promising to me last year, but you can't argue with 0-9.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Alright. I agree that the overall futility is probably what prompted Aron's premature dismissal, but you could hardly blame him for not staying to run the academy.

I don't blame him at all. Who wants to stay on at a lesser post in the organization he used to manage? It'd be like your girlfriend breaking up with you, but asking you to stay on as her financial advisor. You just want to get out of there.

- Scott

[jloome]

Listening to the scrum interviews today I think I can pin point why Winter wasn't getting results from his players - He wasn't vocal enough. Some players need someone constantly yelling at them, be it positive or negative - but they just need a voice in their ear. reporters took notice that today's practice was much more lively and that Mariner seemed more vocal than what is the norm.

DeClerk was Winters voice - but I think he was too negative. Did Winter finally open his mouth in the last couple weeks and got a couple results out of the team? Too little too late obviously. It would suck if that was all that we needed this whole time...just a mouth during practice and at the games.

As I've eluded to before, I suspect Winter was very much an office GM, not a field level guy, until he was told to be near the end. DeGuzman said in an early interview that he "doesn't say much" which is NEVER something you want to hear from a player about their manager.

The "hands off" GM may be why it reminded Gordon of Gullit in LA. Doesn't mean Winter didn't have some decent technical coaching abilities and ideas, but it's not the type of upfront leadership that gung-ho Americans and underwhelming other players expect. Like you said, they need a voice in their ears ... and occasionally a boot up their asses.

[__wowza]

Listening to the scrum interviews today I think I can pin point why Winter wasn't getting results from his players - He wasn't vocal enough. Some players need someone constantly yelling at them, be it positive or negative - but they just need a voice in their ear. reporters took notice that today's practice was much more lively and that Mariner seemed more vocal than what is the norm.

DeClerk was Winters voice - but I think he was too negative. Did Winter finally open his mouth in the last couple weeks and got a couple results out of the team?

jekyll and hyde much? winter was too nice and BDK was too apeshit?
i think the issue with a lot of players today is that they shouldnt need to be yelled at, you shouldnt need someone in your face constantly to get results. alternately, as a coach you dont need to raise your voice to be intense (see: jake the snake roberts, that guy could cut a terrifying promo without ever changing his tone). i think winter's particular form of communication was lost on a lot of people, and i say that specifcally in terms of speaking with the media. it could've been completely different with the players and FO behind the scenes. it could've been the language barrier, it could've been his personality, but he always seemed to be so.. what's the word im looking for.. reasonable? calm?

he came across as a combination of the two, even when we were winning in the CCL or the VC. go back and watch his interviews, you wouldnt be able to tell the difference in his demeanor between a win and a loss. he was always so laid back. i think it can translate to a lack of intensity or even passion, and i think it can look like he didn't feel the urgency to start picking up points. if you had another coach up there vocalizing the exact same things he was (ex: staying the course, individual mistakes, etc) it would've been taken a lot differently.

[TOBOR !]

alluded

[Oldtimer]

Agreed on 18 months as an acceptable time frame, at least to see progress after a rebuild.
No rebuild needed? Then 5-6 games tops.

I've thought about it some more, and am ready to evaluate it fairly. While I would give Winter as an organizational leader a much higher rating, as a coach for TFC (which is the question), I would give him a 2.
The football looked nice at times, but the results weren't. Reasons for downgrading are:

* inflexibility in formation and tactics
* inability to adjust when others teams do (related to inflexibility)
* inability to motivate players
* questionable selections
* repeated use of formations/tactics/players that didn't work, not learning from those situations
* results

Why I didn't downgrade him to zero:

* he didn't seem to have control over all of the players brought in/not brought in
* some of the fault belongs on the players, they've admitted as much
* good CCL run

All-in-all a big disappointment in the end. I think he's a decent man, but was in over his head as coach of a first team in MLS. Maybe with a few years experience, he might have improved (and he might do much better outside of MLS), but the prognosis wasn't good. Time to cut the losses and move on. I hope he finds a suitable job for him.

[Beach_Red]

As I've eluded to before, I suspect Winter was very much an office GM, not a field level guy, until he was told to be near the end. DeGuzman said in an early interview that he "doesn't say much" which is NEVER something you want to hear from a player about their manager.

The "hands off" GM may be why it reminded Gordon of Gullit in LA. Doesn't mean Winter didn't have some decent technical coaching abilities and ideas, but it's not the type of upfront leadership that gung-ho Americans and underwhelming other players expect. Like you said, they need a voice in their ears ... and occasionally a boot up their asses.

This isn't true of American athletes in other sports so maybe it's something that will change if soccer becomes more mainstream at a younger level.

For now it may be something that European coaches really aren't used to, athletes who grew up not as part of the 'glamour' sport in their school or community.

[Just One Man]

I agree with basically every Shakes said.

He may have been doing wonders for the academy, but that doesn't excuse a complete absence of results from the first team.

[Pookie]

I agree with basically every Shakes said.

He may have been doing wonders for the academy, but that doesn't excuse a complete absence of results from the first team.

Well technically speaking, semi finals of the CCL is considered a result and I believe that was with the first team.

[Just One Man]

Well technically speaking, semi finals of the CCL is considered a result and I believe that was with the first team.

How many premiership managers would survive a 1-9 start (essentially a relegation sentence) simply because they made it to the semi-finals of the Champions League?

And even comparing UEFA CL to CONCACAF CL is hugely flattering to Winter.

[Pookie]

^ it is perplexing isn't it? His non MLS record is something like 12-3-7 (have to look that up)

Considering too that he just qualified for CCL again and won the week before he was canned.

That said, the MLS record is horrible. Not defending him at all. I just think that Anselmi should have been fired before we made the decision to remove Winter... a decision which ultimately removed one of the more forward thinking technical football minds from our club entirely, Academy included.

This is not a step forward for the club.

[ryan]

I think he needed more time with what he was doing to make it work in the MLS is all. Truly only had 1 year as he got some of the players he wanted at the Summer transfer window of 2011. Prior to that he was really just cleaning up with the old roster.

Then again, fucking team Mariner was cockblocking the players he wanted to get themselves what we have today.


I simply can't rate Winter, because the whole thing is a clusterbomb of political cuntfuckery. Winter didn't get a fair shake as far as I'm concerned, and neither is Mariner going to, but I'm going to immediately join his hate parade because his expedited failure is the only possibility for getting Anselmi the fuck out. Sooner this fails the better.

[Shakes McQueen]

^ it is perplexing isn't it? His non MLS record is something like 12-3-7 (have to look that up)

Considering too that he just qualified for CCL again and won the week before he was canned.

That said, the MLS record is horrible. Not defending him at all. I just think that Anselmi should have been fired before we made the decision to remove Winter... a decision which ultimately removed one of the more forward thinking technical football minds from our club entirely, Academy included.

This is not a step forward for the club.

I agree with this. Anselmi should have been the first change made, so a new face could decide where to go from here. Firing Winter to replace him with Mariner does nothing but tread water at best, and blow up what little "system" we had built at worst. So far, it looks like the latter.

Mariner's appointment was never a forward move - just a warm body to fill the vacant spot until Anselmi could figure out what to do next.

- Scott

[TOBOR !]

How many premiership managers would survive a 1-9 start (essentially a relegation sentence) simply because they made it to the semi-finals of the Champions League?

And even comparing UEFA CL to CONCACAF CL is hugely flattering to Winter.

Surely you're not comparing MLS to EPL ?... and CCL to ECL ?

Premiership clubs don't generally implement 3 or 5 year rebuilding plans - as is (was) our case. Premiership clubs that drop down to League One or Two may do this, but now we're not talking about the same thing.

[TOBOR !]

I think he needed more time with what he was doing to make it work in the MLS is all. Truly only had 1 year as he got some of the players he wanted at the Summer transfer window of 2011. Prior to that he was really just cleaning up with the old roster.

Then again, fucking team Mariner was cockblocking the players he wanted to get themselves what we have today.


I simply can't rate Winter, because the whole thing is a clusterbomb of political cuntfuckery. Winter didn't get a fair shake as far as I'm concerned, and neither is Mariner going to, but I'm going to immediately join his hate parade because his expedited failure is the only possibility for getting Anselmi the fuck out. Sooner this fails the better.

Yes.

You've expressed my thoughts much more eloquently than even I could myself.

[ag futbol]

I think he needed more time with what he was doing to make it work in the MLS is all. Truly only had 1 year as he got some of the players he wanted at the Summer transfer window of 2011. Prior to that he was really just cleaning up with the old roster.

Then again, fucking team Mariner was cockblocking the players he wanted to get themselves what we have today.


I simply can't rate Winter, because the whole thing is a clusterbomb of political cuntfuckery. Winter didn't get a fair shake as far as I'm concerned, and neither is Mariner going to, but I'm going to immediately join his hate parade because his expedited failure is the only possibility for getting Anselmi the fuck out. Sooner this fails the better.
What's the proof of this? I haven't seen anything indicating this happened.

In my opinion, Winter just doesn't have a scouting network to begin with. He's brought in a few guys here and there, but none of them are saviors. Not that I'm absolving Mariner of his performance, if anything this just underscores that he found a bunch of players that can't cut it.

Let's look at the big picture here: Aron Winter was given an absolute TON of roster flexibility. I don't think many teams in MLS if they hired a new coach would have allowed for that much turnover. Managers are always expected to use a mix of what they've got and what they need. I think Winter was given more than enough leeway to change the team.

[TOBOR !]

Are managers expected to have their own scouting networks ? That they bring with them from club to club ? Or does each club have it's own network ?

[__wowza]

What's the proof of this? I haven't seen anything indicating this happened.

In my opinion, Winter just doesn't have a scouting network to begin with. He's brought in a few guys here and there, but none of them are saviors. Not that I'm absolving Mariner of his performance, if anything this just underscores that he found a bunch of players that can't cut it.

Let's look at the big picture here: Aron Winter was given an absolute TON of roster flexibility. I don't think many teams in MLS if they hired a new coach would have allowed for that much turnover. Managers are always expected to use a mix of what they've got and what they need. I think Winter was given more than enough leeway to change the team.

did we ever even have a scouting network? i thought the FO just took turns playing FIFA12.
i just wish we had the whole story on how the fuck the roster was organized. is it so hard for a manager to step up and say something like "i had a few people i wanted to bring in, the owners felt differently".

i do know that gameday decisions were his, he took the full brunt of benching JDG. when the press grilled him on why he was benching a player costing us a million dollars, he was very frank that JDG wasn't performing. he didn't pass the buck and say "some people thought it would straighten him out"

[Soccer Mom]

I gave him 5 stars because he brought football totally to TFC! Before this we played a variation of soccer, now we play football. Basically, I think we needed to keep him longer, so that we could have won the Concacaf playoffs.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I gave him 5 stars because he brought football totally to TFC! Before this we played a variation of soccer, now we play football. Basically, I think we needed to keep him longer, so that we could have won the Concacaf playoffs.

Playoffs! Totally! But it sounds like you're not as fond of Soccer as much as Football. Perhaps you should've chose "Football Mom"?




I'll miss some things about Winter. That Concacaf run will be a highlight for quite some time.