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MartinUtd
06-07-2012, 06:42 PM
It doesn't sound like we'll be on the 433 much longer, so what does this mean we'll be doing? A lot of people are thinking it means a return to the 442 with Johnson and Koevermans up top and perhaps JDG and Frings in the middle. That's one option, but it also leaves no room for our hungry attacking mids: Avila and/or Silva whom I think can be the future of the club (unless a mass exodus occurs, but that's a different conversation entirely).

Personally I'd prefer to see a 4-4-1-1 or something like it. I'll bet Johnson is benched (see: "barring any injuries" comment from Mariner) and probably Soolsma and Lambe on the outside. Plata is a good sub to run at a tired defence, but so far hasn't shown that he's starting material. Frings is an obvious start, but JDG? I'm not so sure where he ranks in favourability. Maybe Stinson will get his chance to play beside Frings.. I doubt it will be Dunfield though.

Finally the back line. The four we've had lately seem to be getting the job done better than any other combination on the roster but as far as I'm concerned it's a craps shoot. So for posteriety, here's my prediction:


-----------Koevermans----------
------------Avila/Silva-----------
Lambe--Frings--Stinson--Soolsma
Morgan--Cann---Henry--Eckersly
-------------Kocic--------------

Like I said, not sure about attacking mid, but I imagine something close to this being Mariner's vision.

Who's up for some baseless formation speculation? I know NBF is!! (I kid, I kid)

ManUtd4ever
06-07-2012, 07:23 PM
Here is your answer...

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/06/07/new-boss-mariner-insists-players-will-define-system-toronto


Mariner said he does not want to tip his hand about tactics to TFC's next two opponents, Sporting Kansas City and the Houston Dynamo, but he appears to be taking a more flexible approach to the system he will use.

“All it is is minor adjustments,” he said during the media conference. “It really is. It’s not a massive overhaul.”

He feels Toronto’s players are good enough to be better than the team’s 1-9-0 league record. And he feels that the players are the key whatever formation is used.

“To me, it’s whatever works,” Mariner said. “I’ve played in different systems. I’ve played with some unbelievable managers. Bobby Robson came up with a 4-3-1-2 that nobody else had ever thought about. It’s all about players, it’s all about putting players in the right position to succeed.

“That’s my basic coaching philosophy. I want to put people with the right abilities, I want to put people with the right skill set, in the right positions and that’s it," he added. "Just give them some instruction and hope that the core of players that we’ve got [Torsten Frings] and [Danny Koevermans] and so on and so forth, they can lead the team on the field for me.”

He feels that a “decent technical player” with “decent intelligence” can play most systems.

“It just annoys me that we talk about systems so much,” he added. “Because to me the players dictate the system and the players dictate whether they’re picked or not. Not me. The players dictate it with their performances.”

MartinUtd
06-07-2012, 07:47 PM
That doesn't reveal much. His example of the Bobby Robson formation doesn't necessarily mean he's going to use it here. If it was, what do we expect? JDG benched with RJ and DK up front? I don't think we have the depth for a 2 striker formation at the moment... can Silva play striker if need be?

ManUtd4ever
06-07-2012, 07:58 PM
Well, my interpretation is that he will adapt strategically depending on the opponent, as opposed to a rigid adherence to a specific lineup or formation.

jabbronies
06-07-2012, 08:07 PM
Well, my interpretation is that he will adapt strategically depending on the opponent, as opposed to a rigid adherence to a specific lineup or formation.

One thing I found interesting was that Mariner spoke about arguments he and DeKlerk had on Dutch vs England football.

I can see us moving to a more structured way of play against the majority of MLS teams as oppose to the free flowing style we saw against LA, Santos etc. Then maybe leaving the free flow for the more "stylish" based teams or if we can catch a team flat footed we can switch up the flow.

DoubleUp
06-07-2012, 08:41 PM
.........RJ...........DK
...............Avila..............
........Silva.......deguzman
...............Frings.......
...Morgan.Henry..Cann..Eckersley

[NBF]
06-07-2012, 08:46 PM
You asked for it! By demand I gotta bring it.


-------------------------Kocic----------------------
------------------------Roberts---------------------
Eckersley---------Cann---------Henry---------Aceval
Hall--------------Maund--------Harden--------Morgan
-----------------Emory--------Williams---------------
-----------------------------------------------------
----------------DeGuzman---------------------------
Avila------------Dunfield--------Frings--------Johnson
Lambe--------------------------Silva------------Plata
-----------------------------------------------------
---------------Koevermans-----Soolsma--------------
-----------------------------------------------------

This is just a thought. Soolsma, Johnson, Plata is interchangable.

Canary10
06-07-2012, 08:52 PM
I actually don't think Mariner will play a 4-4-2. I just don't see the personnel for it, particularly those outside midfielders and a second striker. I expect a more structured 4-3-3, which actually wouldn't be a bad thing. But we'll see.

Initial B
06-07-2012, 09:50 PM
I think I see more of a 4-2-3-1 myself with the usual suspects at back, Frings and Deguzman at the holding/defensive midfield (Dunfield reserve), Plata/Soolsma-Avila/Silva-Lambe/Johnson as the attacking midfield/wingers, and Koovermans/Johnson as target strikers.

Ajax TFC
06-07-2012, 10:42 PM
First thing to do is evaluate the players, decide who should definitely be starting and where they're most effective. Then build a formation around that (ignoring the defenders since I'm going to assume a back line of four).
IMO our best players are:
Avila: IMO he has the most vision of anyone on the team and has a pretty accurate pass to go with it. Although he's mostly seen as a #10, and usually plays there, I see him more as a deep lying play-maker. He has the speed and skill to play on the wing, but IMO his primary abilities are wasted there.
Frings: Incredibly strong presence on the field, but he unfortunately lacks speed to complement his mentality. He should be paired with a pit-bull in midfield.
Koevermans: self-explanatory IMO. He holds the ball up and can score lots of goals.
Soolsma: One of our most consistent good performers. He can beat his man on the wing like no one else on the squad and can get into positions to score goals.
Lambe: great shot, and the expectations of lightning speed that came with him have lead to such huge initial appointment that the speed that he does have is now underrated. also his crossing is good.

next in line:
Plata (who I think should be a supersub)
De Guzman: not a must start, but should still be high on the depth chart
Silva: his ball control and spacial awareness leave something to be desired, but he could become a good player
Johnson: I rate him as a Jack of all trades, master of none. He can play striker, but he wastes HUGE opportunities. He can play on the wing or as a #10, but he lacks the awareness to be good in either of those positions.
Burgos: I rate, but from the sounds of it I don't think he'll be getting any more time under Mariner.

Filler: who cares, they're just filler

Then build a formation based on that priority order and what will be needed.

Yohan
06-07-2012, 11:07 PM
Love how people assume that since mariner is english, tfc will play 'boring' 442 longball.

T-boy
06-07-2012, 11:21 PM
It's comical how some people see 4-4-2 or direct football as "boring". Neither necessarily are boring at all! I've seen some extremely exciting 4-4-2 teams before, and I've equally seen fantastic long ball direct football teams before!

__wowza
06-08-2012, 01:18 AM
here's my 2D mockup of a plausible formation we can play with the roster we currently got:

http://i.imm.io/rXUg.jpeg

Wooster_TFC
06-08-2012, 09:45 AM
First thing to do is evaluate the players, decide who should definitely be starting and where they're most effective. Then build a formation around that (ignoring the defenders since I'm going to assume a back line of four).
IMO our best players are:
Avila: IMO he has the most vision of anyone on the team and has a pretty accurate pass to go with it. Although he's mostly seen as a #10, and usually plays there, I see him more as a deep lying play-maker. He has the speed and skill to play on the wing, but IMO his primary abilities are wasted there.
Frings: Incredibly strong presence on the field, but he unfortunately lacks speed to complement his mentality. He should be paired with a pit-bull in midfield.
Koevermans: self-explanatory IMO. He holds the ball up and can score lots of goals.
Soolsma: One of our most consistent good performers. He can beat his man on the wing like no one else on the squad and can get into positions to score goals.
Lambe: great shot, and the expectations of lightning speed that came with him have lead to such huge initial appointment that the speed that he does have is now underrated. also his crossing is good.

next in line:
Plata (who I think should be a supersub)
De Guzman: not a must start, but should still be high on the depth chart
Silva: his ball control and spacial awareness leave something to be desired, but he could become a good player
Johnson: I rate him as a Jack of all trades, master of none. He can play striker, but he wastes HUGE opportunities. He can play on the wing or as a #10, but he lacks the awareness to be good in either of those positions.
Burgos: I rate, but from the sounds of it I don't think he'll be getting any more time under Mariner.

Filler: who cares, they're just filler

Then build a formation based on that priority order and what will be needed.

So, Kocic (need a keeper right?), 0 defenders, 2 DMs, 1 CM, 2 AMs, 3 Wingers, and a striker? 0-2-1-2-3-1? I like it! g:D

Ajax TFC
06-08-2012, 12:47 PM
So, Kocic (need a keeper right?), 0 defenders, 2 DMs, 1 CM, 2 AMs, 3 Wingers, and a striker? 0-2-1-2-3-1? I like it! g:D
Defenders are overratedg:D. They fall under "filler".
I ignored the defenders because defense isn't as interesting as midfield and attack

[NBF]
06-10-2012, 07:37 PM
If Paul Mariner has been with TFC for 18 months and has no formation in mind that will work with these players than he really is amateur. There's really no point in hiding the formation its only going to be a surprise for about 45 minutes. I just hope its not a surprise to the players 15 minutes prior to the game.

T-boy
06-10-2012, 08:03 PM
;1499319']If Paul Mariner has been with TFC for 18 months and has no formation in mind that will work with these players than he really is amateur. There's really no point in hiding the formation its only going to be a surprise for about 45 minutes. I just hope its not a surprise to the players 15 minutes prior to the game.

I'd personally rather it be a surprise to opponents than Winter's "we will play 4-3-3 not matter what" approach!

wesvahr
06-11-2012, 08:08 AM
I am going to have to agree with Intial B and they should play a 4-2-3-1. Koevermans as the line striker, soolsma and Johnson as the wide midfield players and Avila in the middle.

Frings and JDG as the holding midfielders and a back 4 with Eckersly, Cann, Henry, Morgan/Hall.

prizby
06-11-2012, 02:48 PM
expect much of the same...4-2-3-1; maybe the wingers pushed back a bit more

Canary10
06-11-2012, 03:05 PM
expect much of the same...4-2-3-1; maybe the wingers pushed back a bit more

Rumour was that Mariner had them in a 4-4-2 in practice today. Love to know where they conjured up another striker.

ArmenJBX
06-11-2012, 03:20 PM
Rumour was that Mariner had them in a 4-4-2 in practice today. Love to know where they conjured up another striker.

Peri Marosevic is in camp

TFCtoMUFC
06-11-2012, 03:29 PM
Peri Marosevic is in camp

4-4-2

-----------Koevermans----Johnson-----------

-Soolsma----DeGuzman----Frings----Lambe-

-Morgan----Cann----Henry----Eckersley-

---------------------Kocic----------------------

KGH
06-11-2012, 03:34 PM
I agree to some extrent except do a bit of switching:

---------Johnson-------Koevermans----------

-Avila----DeGuzman----Frings----Soolsma-

-Morgan----Cann----Henry------Eckersley----

---------------------Kocic----------------------

Then sub in some speed if we need to attack:

---------Johnson-------Koevermans----------

--Plata-----Avila ----Frings----Lambe-

-Morgan----Cann----Henry------Eckersley----

---------------------Kocic----------------------

Ajax TFC
06-11-2012, 03:48 PM
I wouldn't bench any of Avila, Lambe, or Soolsma for De Guzman, and Avila has to play central midfield

Canary10
06-11-2012, 04:04 PM
I agree to some extrent except do a bit of switching:

---------Johnson-------Koevermans----------

-Avila----DeGuzman----Frings----Soolsma-

-Morgan----Cann----Henry------Eckersley----

---------------------Kocic----------------------

Then sub in some speed if we need to attack:

---------Johnson-------Koevermans----------

--Plata-----Avila ----Frings----Lambe-

-Morgan----Cann----Henry------Eckersley----

---------------------Kocic----------------------

Johnson can't finish. He's been a acting the role of striker in the absence of Danny, and just isn't doing it for me. I guess he could take a deeper lying role in a two striker formation, but he's far better on the wing than used as a striker. For that reason neither of these formations look good to me.

I also, frankly, don't see either Plata or Johnson as an outside mid in a 4-4-2. They're both forwards, not midfielders. Soolsma is the only one of our mids and wingers I can actually see there. Maybe Lambe. But that's it.

And I agree with the comments about Avila. He's much better in the middle, although he surprised me playing in the wing against RSL that one game. Probably the only weird Winter personnel change that really panned out. Playing him on the left of midfield though makes no sense to me at all.

Mariner should play 4-2-3-1 and claim it's something different than 4-3-3 (which it really isn't, but he needs to brand something different or people will wonder what the point was).

[NBF]
06-11-2012, 09:49 PM
I watched Croatia vs Ireland and the Croatians were linedup in a 4-1-3-2 which got me thinking about what TFC would look like in a 4-1-3-2.


------------------------Kocic-----------------------
----------------------------------------------------
Eckersley--------Cann----------Henry---------Aceval
Hall-------------Maund---------Harden--------Morgan
----------------Emory---------Williams--------------
----------------------------------------------------
----------------------DeGuzman---------------------
-----------------------Dunfield----------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------Avila--------Frings------Johnson----------
----------Stinson------Burgos-------Silva------------
-----------------------------------------------------
------------Koevermans---------Soolsma-------------
--------------Lambe--------------Plata--------------

or

4-1-3-1-1:

------------------------Kocic-----------------------
-----------------------Roberts----------------------
----------------------------------------------------
Eckersley--------Cann----------Henry---------Aceval
Hall-------------Maund---------Harden--------Morgan
----------------Emory---------Williams--------------
----------------------------------------------------
----------------------DeGuzman---------------------
-----------------------Dunfield----------------------
----------------------------------------------------
-----------Avila--------Frings------Johnson----------
----------Lambe-------Stinson------Silva------------
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------Soolsma----------------------
------------------------Plata------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
---------------------Koevermans--------------------

BHTC Mike
06-12-2012, 09:33 AM
;1499608']I watched Croatia vs Ireland and the Croatians were linedup in a 4-1-3-2 which got me thinking about what TFC would look like in a 4-1-3-2.

Sometimes we get hung up on numbering formations too much. I blame EA's FIFA series! Like the "is it a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-5-1" both of the formations you posted could just as easily be described, in broad terms, as 4-4-2s:

Four defenders: Eck, Cann, Henry, and Aceval

Four midfielders: Avila, De Guz, Frings, and Johnson

Two forwards: Soolsma and Koevermans

The nuances of starting positions are different but all you've done is designated De Guzman exclusively as a holder. The thing is that in a traditional 4-4-2 his tendencies would result in him naturally be the one dropping back to give Frings the opportunity to break forward. Defensively, as the whole team drops Avila and Johnson wouldn't be able to stay that central so the whole shape would look more like a 4-4-2. Their exact starting positions on your team chart might be a bit different but two more creative players wide and two more defensive players central is not a revolutionary way to set your team up!

That said, I really like the line-up and shape you've described as 4-1-3-1-1. There can be little arguments over exactly who should start (and Mariner's "the players pick who starts" statement reflects that) but, in general, I see the logic of what you're suggesting. The big gaping hole on our team is that we don't have a single back-up capable of being a true centre forward behind Danny K. Soolsma and Plata though are both capable of being the creative player underneath. Soolsma's style would lend itself more to link play through him while Plata could fill the old fashioned "fast guy" in a big guy/fast guy combo. The interesting thing is that by starting them underneath, along with their experience as wingers, they'd both be able to switch flanks and drift wide as play allows. I wouldn't expect them to be rigidly sitting "in the hole" or beside Koevermans.

Avila, by our standards, is an MLS veteran and has been used in wide positions before. I'm pretty sure that Yallop regularly used Johnson as a midfielder on the left in San Jose. It provides a nice balance in a 4-4-2: offensively Avila looking to tuck in ahead of the central pairing to get on the ball and make space for the more offensive full back in Eckersley (or Hall) to move forward while defensively he's more likely to cover than Johnson. Johnson's tendency will be to break forward to the wing but he'd have the cover of a more defensive full back behind him and Avila is an intelligent enough player to recognize that he shouldn't be barrelling forward at the same time. The odd men out look like Morgan and Lambe. Personally, I think we grossly over rate Morgan though and that he's got a long way to go in his development before he should be starting as much as he has.

In the end I'm really interested to see how Mariner's influence is reflected in the team. I'm hoping that the team will be more compact and conservative about when they choose to move forward in numbers. I don't expect to see 7 players ahead of the ball in the opponents end like we've occasionally had happen this season. We don't need to give up on the possesion game but I'd hope to see a greater mix of passing with less emphasis on always building from the back. Our defence isn't good enough - passing OR defending! - to have the ball in our half as much as Winter wanted and we need to play with the ball in front of our midfield more often. That doesn't mean booting it every time but against a team with high up the field pressing like KC we're gonna need to just clear the ball some times and not overplay.

KC away and Houston away would be tough, tough games even for the league's better teams that you wouldn't expect to get a lot out of. I'd say 1 point between the two of them is a regular return. If we were to get 2-4 points that'd be a pretty spectacular turn around from how this league campaign started. To be honest though I'd be happy with just not looking disorganized and defeated!

Auzzy
06-12-2012, 11:07 AM
Love how people assume that since mariner is english, tfc will play 'boring' 442 longball.


It's comical how some people see 4-4-2 or direct football as "boring". Neither necessarily are boring at all! I've seen some extremely exciting 4-4-2 teams before, and I've equally seen fantastic long ball direct football teams before!

I feel that comments like this over-hype and distort the conversation. Did you guys actually read the rest of the posts in this thread? Not a single person mentioned "boring" or "longball" (other than you two). I know it's been mentioned plenty in other threads, but not here. Seems to be a fairly mature discussion of various formations & options, best fit for players, trying to guess what Mariner will do, etc, with no overt hostility towards Mariner, 4-4-2, or anything else.

Phil
06-12-2012, 11:15 AM
Peri Marosevic is in camp

He played in the last reserves game from what I hear.

Hopefully they can settle the money situation as I thought he would do pretty well in TFC red.

T-boy
06-12-2012, 11:50 AM
I feel that comments like this over-hype and distort the conversation. Did you guys actually read the rest of the posts in this thread? Not a single person mentioned "boring" or "longball" (other than you two). I know it's been mentioned plenty in other threads, but not here. Seems to be a fairly mature discussion of various formations & options, best fit for players, trying to guess what Mariner will do, etc, with no overt hostility towards Mariner, 4-4-2, or anything else.

The fear of 4-4-2 etc is written a lot in the "major announcement" thread more than here, for sure.

I'm defending the 4-4-2 and tactics here, as are most people.

T-boy
06-12-2012, 11:52 AM
He played in the last reserves game from what I hear.

Hopefully they can settle the money situation as I thought he would do pretty well in TFC red.

Per is a fair player, but we have a lot of his type already with us (Silva, Avila, Johnson) - I'd rather TFC be looking for a proper backup to Koev's right now - as Johnson certainly isn't the answer when Koev's isn't fit.

Canary10
06-12-2012, 01:42 PM
The fear of 4-4-2 etc is written a lot in the "major announcement" thread more than here, for sure.

I'm defending the 4-4-2 and tactics here, as are most people.

Funny, in your next post (above) you just used my argument why a 4-4-2 would be a bad fit with the club we have right now.

jloome
06-12-2012, 02:53 PM
I'm just nervous. Players are trying to learn a new system again, according to fringe on TFC tv.

Canary10
06-12-2012, 03:24 PM
I'm just nervous. Players are trying to learn a new system again, according to fringe on TFC tv.

That's worriesome. I really don't know why some tweaks to the system isn't all that's needed rather than something totally new.

ag futbol
06-12-2012, 03:38 PM
I almost have a hard time picturing this team playing a 4-4-2 now... especially with the players we have on our roster.

That being said, maybe it's best to drop some attack-minded players for some defensive orientated ones. Unfortunately, there are few bulldogs on this team and a lot of lightweights.


Per is a fair player, but we have a lot of his type already with us (Silva, Avila, Johnson) - I'd rather TFC be looking for a proper backup to Koev's right now - as Johnson certainly isn't the answer when Koev's isn't fit.
Agreed, we need a guy who is at the next level. All these players (with the exception of Johnson) are not first choice IMO.

Ajax TFC
06-12-2012, 03:40 PM
Funny, in your next post (above) you just used my argument why a 4-4-2 would be a bad fit with the club we have right now.
I dont think he's saying that TFC should play 4-4-2, he's defending the 4-4-2 in general against the people who have been saying that 4-4-2 = kick and run

Canary10
06-12-2012, 03:41 PM
Right, thanks. I read it the wrong way.

T-boy
06-13-2012, 09:12 AM
I'm just nervous. Players are trying to learn a new system again, according to fringe on TFC tv.

That's fine, as long as the new system isn't rocket science, unlike the last system! Winter's system was just too complicated! Listening to Rongen and De Klerk talk about the system made it sounds ludicrously complicated! Number 5 plays to number 3, but the number 6 has to drop back to make room for number 8. But number 3 can't pass the ball to number 8, he has to play the ball to number 11 or number 2. Number 2 then drops back to centre back and number 9 fill in the gap etc etc etc! I was honestly lost when they were describing the system, so number wonder the players were having a hard time learning it!

I think that is what a few of the experts were also saying about Winter's system - he was trying to get below par (MLS) players to play a far superior game.

If Mariner wants to play a more simple game, then I'm VERY happy about that! So, I'm not worried if the players are learning something new now.

ManUtd4ever
06-13-2012, 09:23 AM
^^ I have to agree. The players are more than likely just getting back to basics in practice now as opposed to learning a complex new system.

Canary10
06-13-2012, 11:08 AM
That's fine, as long as the new system isn't rocket science, unlike the last system! Winter's system was just too complicated! Listening to Rongen and De Klerk talk about the system made it sounds ludicrously complicated! Number 5 plays to number 3, but the number 6 has to drop back to make room for number 8. But number 3 can't pass the ball to number 8, he has to play the ball to number 11 or number 2. Number 2 then drops back to centre back and number 9 fill in the gap etc etc etc! I was honestly lost when they were describing the system, so number wonder the players were having a hard time learning it!

I think that is what a few of the experts were also saying about Winter's system - he was trying to get below par (MLS) players to play a far superior game.

If Mariner wants to play a more simple game, then I'm VERY happy about that! So, I'm not worried if the players are learning something new now.

Ha, that's funny. I was thinking the exact same thing when they showed that at halftime of one of the games on Goal TV. They also used Barcelona players as their reference points for each position. Don't think their intent was to make it sound even more confusing....

T-boy
06-13-2012, 12:48 PM
Ha, that's funny. I was thinking the exact same thing when they showed that at halftime of one of the games on Goal TV. They also used Barcelona players as their reference points for each position. Don't think their intent was to make it sound even more confusing....

It was like they were saying "the Mauritanian* national rugby team WILL be fantastic as long as they play exactly like the All Blacks"!

*trying to think of the most random and least Rugby playing nation I can!

v00d00daddy
06-13-2012, 03:27 PM
Well...having listened to Mariner's interview with Jeff Blair I can say with confidence that 4-3-3 is gone. The team will play 4-4-2 or some form of it. (4-2-4 or 4-5-1).

And if I hear him say that the players dictate the formation any more I'm gonna make a two stick of it. lol

"I'm a players coach" says Mariner.

Guess that implies that Winter wasn't.

Whatever. He'd better get results NOW. As in next game and every game thereafter. Because, if he doesn't, AND we're watching the Terry Dunfields of the world hoof the ball around the pitch with the skill of a 12 year old boy I may have to heckle Mariner incessantly. LOL

As for the talk about the "complicated" nature of the 4-3-3. It's just football guys. It's football that anybody can learn. The problem with "some" of our players is that they have to unlearn a brand of football that is so simple (and mindless) that is easy to revert back to.

Many of our players have been trained in thinking that kicking the ball away under even the smallest bit of pressure is "safe".
Those same players (and most supporters too) have been trained to believe that when they make a bad play, like giving the ball away cheaply, it's most important to hustle and get that ball back. Yes...that's a well and good (and the bare minimum of what should be expected) but the far greater important thing to do is not give the ball away cheaply in the first place. And that only come with movement and understanding your options. This is part of what the possession game teaches you.

That's why JDG looks so bad sometimes. Yes...he's lost a lot of the form that made him great in his Deportivo days, but there are many games where he gives the ball away in situations where, if he had teammates that understood spacing and movement, he'd normally play the ball off simply.

And it doesn't surprise me that Mariner is likely of the "kick it away and figure it out later" mentality. He's of an old school of football that died 30 years ago and gets zero results in anything meaningful these days. Not to mention that players like Henry, Morgan, Eckersley, Plata, Avila, Silva and any other young players in the senior squad will likely regress playing mindless football.

But who cares...as long as we get a couple wins right? LOL

Pookie
06-13-2012, 04:39 PM
As for the talk about the "complicated" nature of the 4-3-3. It's just football guys. It's football that anybody can learn. The problem with "some" of our players is that they have to unlearn a brand of football that is so simple (and mindless) that is easy to revert back to.

Many of our players have been trained in thinking that kicking the ball away under even the smallest bit of pressure is "safe".
Those same players (and most supporters too) have been trained to believe that when they make a bad play, like giving the ball away cheaply, it's most important to hustle and get that ball back. Yes...that's a well and good (and the bare minimum of what should be expected) but the far greater important thing to do is not give the ball away cheaply in the first place. And that only come with movement and understanding your options. This is part of what the possession game teaches you.

That's why JDG looks so bad sometimes. Yes...he's lost a lot of the form that made him great in his Deportivo days, but there are many games where he gives the ball away in situations where, if he had teammates that understood spacing and movement, he'd normally play the ball off simply.



Good post.

I was reading this thinking what is so complex about the idea of maintaining a shape, maintaining possession and covering for a teammate when they press forward?

There is a growing school of thought amongst the U6-U8 group that you don't need to teach positions. Simply teach them to be aware and maintain a "shape." Simply look to keep the ball and if you notice that you have no one behind the ball, take a space in behind it. If you notice that no one is pressing forward, press forward.

At the older ages it requires technical skill and fitness and I get that if you have been taught to never venture much outside of your "zone" it can be somewhat challenging. That said, the basic concept is the same concept that we use to teach the concept of triangles. Maintain the shape. Maintain options. If you notice that the shape has been lost, move in to correct it.

For me, if Mariner is reverting back to an MLS pragmatic approach we better be getting results in the very next game. There is no "learning" here. No technical skill requirement and in fact, if the 3rd largest payroll in the league... that he signed... isn't skilled enough to play a pragmatic MLS game then we have a bigger issue.

Good luck Paul. Welcome to the show.

denime
06-13-2012, 04:49 PM
Kocic said it in his interview they will play 4-4-2,it slipped away from him.I'm sure players were asked not to talk about formations.

Frings said in his,they are learning new system/formation.

I have no problem with 442 as long it is not Preki ball.

West220Side
06-13-2012, 05:29 PM
---------Koev-------??-------------
----Avila-------------------Soolsma
------------------De Guzman---------
------------Frings---------------------
Morgan--Cann---Henry--Eckersley
----------------------------------------
----------------Kocic-------------------


Lets just bring our wingers a little more withdrawn into the midfield, cutting into the box making runs to bring attention of Danny Koevermans so that he can get into those prime places to clean up and score those 'garbage goals' as i've seen them be labelled. If the balls at his feet he's unlikely to miss unless the Goalkeeper is able to reposition himself from the original shot or where the winger was originally with the ball to cover Koevermans.

Avila I was able to slot into the left winger or left midfield role, granted I don't think Avila will lend much defensively covering the left side from attackers so Morgan will have to really step up back there and watch his runs going forward not to get burned. Avila showed qualities of a solid wing effort in what was I believe the Real Salt Lake (away) game where he scored a goal three shots, and one on target. He has a decent long shot from outside the box to create trouble for the other sides goalkeeper. Just to list a few stats from that Real Salt Lake match i'm referencing...

18 Successful Passes
4 Unsuccesful Passes
10 Tackled and Possesion Lost

So he can be pushed off the ball fairly easily, which is a downside but even Frings was knocked off the ball 13 times in this game, it happens.

Soolsma can take his winger on and beat him, we know he can send those direct crosses onto Koevermans we've all seen it before. Soolsma takes it for me on the right hand side. My only complaint about having Soolsma and Avila as the wingers is that if most the traffic comes Soolsmas way with him crossing it into the box Eric Avila is only 5'8 so Koevermans is basically the only remote hope of putting a head on it in the box.

De Guzman was put into the centre midfield because I don't see Paul Mariner dumping him while he's still under contract and also the only other person we've seen who can play that position well would be perhaps twenty three year old Luis Silva who I don't see being more then coming off the bench for most of the normal games of the season. What does de Guzman do? Hopefully he doesn't have the bright idea to take to many shots from outside the box only to simply roof them. Pass onto the wingers and move. Pass & move.

Frings was put closer back to our defense to keep an eye on things then taking the ball making those plays by knocking it short to de Guzman or long to one of the wingers. He's our playmaker no? Vision? Passing? Field Marshall Frings?

Defense is fairly typical with Cann, and Henry proving throughout the season as the best pairing centrally on our team. I believe Hall has only been played to show he's healthy for trade-bait this summer, and Eckersley is the only true player to put at right back especially if we're paying him $300,000. Morgan is progressing well in my own opinion his runs have improved aswell as his crosses into the back but if he cannot produce defensively we have two other options depth wise with Emory & Aceval sitting on the bench/reserves.

Kocic remains unchallenged until Frei returns.

Does this make any sense? Maybe i'm just playing favoritism and trying to get the players I like the best into the XI while at the same time trying to throw the 4-3-3 away. Let me know, guys.

The only problem is I have no clue who to partner with Koevermans do you put Soolsma beside Koevermans and bring Reggie Lambe into the right midfield role? Do you slot Ryan Johnson into the striker slot giving you no strikers on the bench at all?
So? Who would you play beside Koevermans? (If we use two strikers up front)

Oldtimer
06-13-2012, 08:20 PM
Mariner said on the Fan to Jeff Blair that he's decided he will be playing a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1. I think the latter would be a better choice given who is available.

Auzzy
06-13-2012, 08:45 PM
Good post.

I was reading this thinking what is so complex about the idea of maintaining a shape, maintaining possession and covering for a teammate when they press forward?

There is a growing school of thought amongst the U6-U8 group that you don't need to teach positions. Simply teach them to be aware and maintain a "shape." Simply look to keep the ball and if you notice that you have no one behind the ball, take a space in behind it. If you notice that no one is pressing forward, press forward.

At the older ages it requires technical skill and fitness and I get that if you have been taught to never venture much outside of your "zone" it can be somewhat challenging. That said, the basic concept is the same concept that we use to teach the concept of triangles. Maintain the shape. Maintain options. If you notice that the shape has been lost, move in to correct it.

For me, if Mariner is reverting back to an MLS pragmatic approach we better be getting results in the very next game. There is no "learning" here. No technical skill requirement and in fact, if the 3rd largest payroll in the league... that he signed... isn't skilled enough to play a pragmatic MLS game then we have a bigger issue.

Good luck Paul. Welcome to the show.

Anybody who thinks things will settle down around here just because Winter is gone, is delusional. ;) Unless TFC starts getting a bunch of wins or at least draws. Which, considering the upcoming schedule, is pretty unlikely.

denime
06-13-2012, 09:16 PM
That's fine, as long as the new system isn't rocket science, unlike the last system! Winter's system was just too complicated! Listening to Rongen and De Klerk talk about the system made it sounds ludicrously complicated! Number 5 plays to number 3, but the number 6 has to drop back to make room for number 8. But number 3 can't pass the ball to number 8, he has to play the ball to number 11 or number 2. Number 2 then drops back to centre back and number 9 fill in the gap etc etc etc! I was honestly lost when they were describing the system, so number wonder the players were having a hard time learning it!

I think that is what a few of the experts were also saying about Winter's system - he was trying to get below par (MLS) players to play a far superior game.

If Mariner wants to play a more simple game, then I'm VERY happy about that! So, I'm not worried if the players are learning something new now.

Yeah,if players IQ is 37 than is complicated.

Let me know what Saturday morning you have some spare time I would like to invite to see 12-18 years old boys playing and executing 433 point to the back(pick any Sigma academy game you like http://www.academysoccer.ca/ ), and than you tell me is it so complicated that professional players can't learn in 18 months.

And now you think we are good since they will learn NEW Mariners system in a week or two,I wish you are right but I doubt it,I'm scared we will park the bus in front of the net or what we like to call Preki ball.

Ajax TFC
06-13-2012, 09:29 PM
^ I would rep that if I could.
They're professional footballers, it's their job to be able to understand systems like that. If they can't then they don't deserve to be making money playing football. Even I understood what he was talking about so theres no excuse for professionals to nnot understand.
Someone here complained that BdK was referring to Barca players and therefore expecting us to play like Barca: he was using Barca as an example because they're the team that plays that style that the most people watch. He was using their players' names because people can relate to that better than if he just said the number. He could've used the Ajax players for his example as well but not as many people watch Ajax.

ag futbol
06-13-2012, 09:39 PM
Yeah,if players IQ is 37 than is complicated.

Let me know what Saturday morning you have some spare time I would like to invite to see 12-18 years old boys playing and executing 433 point to the back(pick any Sigma academy game you like http://www.academysoccer.ca/ ), and than you tell me is it so complicated that professional players can't learn in 18 months.

And now you think we are good since they will learn NEW Mariners system in a week or two,I wish you are right but I doubt it,I'm scared we will park the bus in front of the net or what we like to call Preki ball.
Agreed. It also seems that when we talk formations things get lumped into a category too easily. There are many different ways to pally a 4-3-3, just like there are different ways to play a 4-4-2. Not all of them are attack minded.

My main thing is maintaining an element of skill within the game. If we're going to use players like Preki had who are nothing more then greyhounds chasing a ball around the field, I have no support for that. It's not how the game is played today, it's not going to win games, develop the younger players, or provide anything useful to TFC other than a short-term kick.

Pookie
06-14-2012, 06:30 AM
Anybody who thinks things will settle down around here just because Winter is gone, is delusional. ;) Unless TFC starts getting a bunch of wins or at least draws. Which, considering the upcoming schedule, is pretty unlikely.

Oh, I think it is an uphill battle from the get go and the odds are stacked against him. That said, I'm passed the point of looking for fairness. Winter was removed from the organization (academy too) for failure to get MLS results within a year and a half of a 3 year contract.

Given that Mariner had a hand in building the current team, I don't see why he should have a grace period that lasts beyond this season. As stated, the wrong man was fired. Anselmi needed to go first.

Anselmi is banking on the leash extended the Mariner. The more patient we are, the less heat he will take. He likely feels he bought some insurance in the form of time by installing a new coach mid year.

For me it is win or draw now. There is no lose.

Oldtimer
06-14-2012, 07:24 AM
I think that "parking the bus" is likely, at least to some extent, given the poor defense. I doubt it will be as extreme as prekiball, which was dire. The skill element will almost certainly be diminished, but hopefully some skill will stay there, as it does for most MLS squads.





For me it is win or draw now. There is no lose.

I like that. That's my new tagline!

Canary10
06-14-2012, 09:00 AM
^ I would rep that if I could.
They're professional footballers, it's their job to be able to understand systems like that. If they can't then they don't deserve to be making money playing football. Even I understood what he was talking about so theres no excuse for professionals to nnot understand.
Someone here complained that BdK was referring to Barca players and therefore expecting us to play like Barca: he was using Barca as an example because they're the team that plays that style that the most people watch. He was using their players' names because people can relate to that better than if he just said the number. He could've used the Ajax players for his example as well but not as many people watch Ajax.

I wasn't complaining about it, I was laughing at it. I would have liked them to use our own players.

Anyway, to be clear, I have not and will not defend 4-4-2. I don't like it, don't think we have a team built for it (thankfully, as we weren't trying to), and I think 4-3-3 and its variants are better. And, as you said, most should be able to play it.

mcolvy
06-14-2012, 12:07 PM
There has been so much nonsense spoken over this thread its getting ridiculous. How can you give a professional player a scapegoat for not being able to learn a soccer system? Just because your slow and can't follow a simple player movement tutorial, doesn't mean you are right. Lets look to our next opponents in SKC. They play a 4-3-3, which was implemented very abruptly by their coach. Why is it working there?
Hmmmmmm

T-boy
06-14-2012, 12:28 PM
Yeah,if players IQ is 37 than is complicated.

Let me know what Saturday morning you have some spare time I would like to invite to see 12-18 years old boys playing and executing 433 point to the back(pick any Sigma academy game you like http://www.academysoccer.ca/ ), and than you tell me is it so complicated that professional players can't learn in 18 months.

And now you think we are good since they will learn NEW Mariners system in a week or two,I wish you are right but I doubt it,I'm scared we will park the bus in front of the net or what we like to call Preki ball.


I have 2 masters degree's, but clearly I'm stupid then.

T-boy
06-14-2012, 12:31 PM
Well...having listened to Mariner's interview with Jeff Blair I can say with confidence that 4-3-3 is gone. The team will play 4-4-2 or some form of it. (4-2-4 or 4-5-1).

And if I hear him say that the players dictate the formation any more I'm gonna make a two stick of it. lol

"I'm a players coach" says Mariner.

Guess that implies that Winter wasn't.

Whatever. He'd better get results NOW. As in next game and every game thereafter. Because, if he doesn't, AND we're watching the Terry Dunfields of the world hoof the ball around the pitch with the skill of a 12 year old boy I may have to heckle Mariner incessantly. LOL

As for the talk about the "complicated" nature of the 4-3-3. It's just football guys. It's football that anybody can learn. The problem with "some" of our players is that they have to unlearn a brand of football that is so simple (and mindless) that is easy to revert back to.

Many of our players have been trained in thinking that kicking the ball away under even the smallest bit of pressure is "safe".
Those same players (and most supporters too) have been trained to believe that when they make a bad play, like giving the ball away cheaply, it's most important to hustle and get that ball back. Yes...that's a well and good (and the bare minimum of what should be expected) but the far greater important thing to do is not give the ball away cheaply in the first place. And that only come with movement and understanding your options. This is part of what the possession game teaches you.

That's why JDG looks so bad sometimes. Yes...he's lost a lot of the form that made him great in his Deportivo days, but there are many games where he gives the ball away in situations where, if he had teammates that understood spacing and movement, he'd normally play the ball off simply.

And it doesn't surprise me that Mariner is likely of the "kick it away and figure it out later" mentality. He's of an old school of football that died 30 years ago and gets zero results in anything meaningful these days. Not to mention that players like Henry, Morgan, Eckersley, Plata, Avila, Silva and any other young players in the senior squad will likely regress playing mindless football.

But who cares...as long as we get a couple wins right? LOL

wow, talk about kicking the new manager down before they've even kicked a ball under his command!

Winter and his system sucked, and the results proved it.

Can Mainer do much worse?

I'm looking forward to seeing what Mariner can do. I'm not fearful of long balls, or new formations, or old school mentality. I like what Mariner has to say and I'm looking forward to seeing the team under him.

Pity some of you don't feel the same way. Some people obviously liked Winter's style (or losing games!).

I have total faith in Mariner, until proven otherwise. Winter proved my otherwise, so I'm glad he's gone.

TOBOR !
06-14-2012, 12:38 PM
all this carefree usage of the term 'park the bus' in so many threads.

thank you very much, England.

Pookie
06-14-2012, 12:47 PM
wow, talk about kicking the new manager down before they've even kicked a ball under his command!

We are talking about a guy hired at the same time as Winter, to work with him and implement a new system. Winter may have failed in MLS by the results a year and a half into his contract. Mariner was right by his side.



Winter and his system sucked, and the results proved it.

Can Mainer do much worse?

I'm looking forward to seeing what Mariner can do. I'm not fearful of long balls, or new formations, or old school mentality. I like what Mariner has to say and I'm looking forward to seeing the team under him.

So when Mariner says in an interview:

“All it is is minor adjustments,” he said during the media conference. “It really is. It’s not a massive overhaul.”

... you like what he has to say? I thought you didn't like Winter's system because it "sucked?" Sounds like Mariner, who was hired to implement Winter's system, is talking about a tinkering not something new.

What's different about what he has to say?

T-boy
06-14-2012, 12:49 PM
all this carefree usage of the term 'park the bus' in so many threads.

thank you very much, England.

In reality every formation and every tactic has a time and a place. For England - missing their top goalscorer and against a far superior French side, they really did need to "park the bus" in front of their penalty area.

I'm sure there will be times that TFC have to do this. And I'm sure there will also be times that they can go and attack (especially in home games).

4-4-2 doesn't EVER have to mean "parking the bus". Roy Hodgson did it as he had to in that one game. I'm seen some extremely attacking and attractive 4-4-2 teams before. I've equally seen some awfully boring 4-3-3 teams before. All this "fear" of 4-4-2 is a little over the top and naive of some people.

Yohan
06-14-2012, 12:49 PM
all this carefree usage of the term 'park the bus' in so many threads.

thank you very much, England.
I thought Park De Bus was the new Korean French defender TFC was interested in

T-boy
06-14-2012, 12:54 PM
We are talking about a guy hired at the same time as Winter, to work with him and implement a new system. Winter may have failed in MLS by the results a year and a half into his contract. Mariner was right by his side.



So when Mariner says in an interview:

“All it is is minor adjustments,” he said during the media conference. “It really is. It’s not a massive overhaul.”

... you like what he has to say? I thought you didn't like Winter's system because it "sucked?" Sounds like Mariner, who was hired to implement Winter's system, is talking about a tinkering not something new.

What's different about what he has to say?


He said that "players dictate formations and tactics". And I completely agree with him. If you have one fit striker, you play with one fit striker...if you have 2 good wingers, you play with wingers. Winter insisted on playing the same way even if he had to play people out of position (which never worked). I like the fact that Mariner is saying that he needs to look at what he has available before making decisions.

I personally think, with the average skill of the current squad, that playing 4-4-2 would be much more succesful at this moment in time. There "might" be a time when we have a better squad, in which case they can play a more complex system. But that time isn't now, and we can all see that.

Secondly, I wouldn't judge Mariner on his "upstairs" roll at the club. That would be like judging Di Matteo on his asistant roll at Chelsea - and we all know how much better he was as head coach, so you definitely can't judge him on anything before he became head coach.

Pookie
06-14-2012, 12:59 PM
^ hard to judge him based on his role as a head coach... considering he has less than a full MLS season's worth of experience as a head coach.

As for saying Winter never adjusted his formation (i.e. 5 at the back), that's ridiculous.

Look, I hope he does well. I have no patience for an 8th coach to start next year. That said, I don't accept the fact that Winter was fired for his record and somehow Mariner should get a pass. Worse, the free pass that Anselmi just got is more ridiculous than the suggestion that Winter never made adjustments.

If Winter deserves to be fired so too does Mariner and most importantly the guy who brought them both in. I don't want to lose sight of that.

Win or draw. There is no lose.

denime
06-14-2012, 03:44 PM
I have 2 masters degree's, but clearly I'm stupid then.

You are not a professional soccer player so if you don't understand 433 nothing wrong with that and that does not make you stupid.
Like I said, system is not difficult when 12 years old boys can executed very well after less than 2 years practicing and playing it.

v00d00daddy
06-14-2012, 03:59 PM
To hear Mariner say that all it will take is a little tinkering in one breath and then talk about the players dictating the formation and tactics seems like double talk to me.

There will be no "little tinkering" at all. It's going to look like a new team. After all, is Mariner capable of tinkering with the 4-3-3? I doubt it. LOL

T-Boy, you need to remember that Mariner was part of the 0-9 start. He's not some new hire out of nowhere. His fingerprints are on this team and, as such, he played a part in our poor start.

So...you're "total trust" in Mariner is a bit misguided. To me, much like Winter, he's proven otherwise. Incapable of getting good players and incapable of buying into the system that was implemented 18 months ago. After hearing what his views on football are, I have no idea why he was ever hired in the first place. He never should have been associated with this club. Another fuck up by the front office.

Mariner and Brennan "coaching". LOL

That's a joke of epic proportions. Please tell me what advice either of those guys can impart on a player like Torsten Frings or Danny Koevermans. LOL

Soccer Mom
06-14-2012, 04:11 PM
To hear Mariner say that all it will take is a little tinkering in one breath and then talk about the players dictating the formation and tactics seems like double talk to me.

There will be no "little tinkering" at all. It's going to look like a new team. After all, is Mariner capable of tinkering with the 4-3-3? I doubt it. LOL

T-Boy, you need to remember that Mariner was part of the 0-9 start. He's not some new hire out of nowhere. His fingerprints are on this team and, as such, he played a part in our poor start.

So...you're "total trust" in Mariner is a bit misguided. To me, much like Winter, he's proven otherwise. Incapable of getting good players and incapable of buying into the system that was implemented 18 months ago. After hearing what his views on football are, I have no idea why he was ever hired in the first place. He never should have been associated with this club. Another fuck up by the front office.

Mariner and Brennan "coaching". LOL

That's a joke of epic proportions. Please tell me what advice either of those guys can impart on a player like Torsten Frings or Danny Koevermans. LOL


We need someone like Sigi Schmidt! I am afraid at the rate TFC is going, the team is going to fold.

[NBF]
06-14-2012, 06:24 PM
I thought Park De Bus was the new Korean French defender TFC was interested in

Korean-french defender? The K.F.D. to the rescue.

Hiring an asian player at this point would be putting the lid on the coffin with the sad music playing in the TFC funeral. As if the TFC Manager job wasn't already like standing infront of a firing squad, you decide to make it even more harder by bringing in a player who would need a translator.

My guess is it will be a 4-4-1-1.

Abou Sky
06-14-2012, 07:30 PM
As a note to those that think players can't understand a new system/formation I say RUBBISH!

House league started Monday, (7v7) I drew out a 3-2-1 formation and jobs in about 10 mins to 8 and 9 year olds and they played it and got it.

This is not rocket science, you tell Lambe he is playing DM and he will do it, tell him to play RB and he will.

Making a tweak from 4-3-3 as a forward to 4-4-2 as AM is nothing for him.

As for 'parking the bus' hell, I have advocated for 5-3-2 so I am guilty of the same attitude, and you know what... Why not? Control your half completely, work the mid hard/well and move up on your chances.

Would you really rather lose 4-3 than win 1-0?

Oldtimer
06-14-2012, 07:33 PM
^This is where actual coaching experience come in handy. I found I was able to teach rudimentary 4-3-3 with passing to teens who had grown up playing 4-4-2 longball.

denime
06-14-2012, 07:47 PM
As a note to those that think players can't understand a new system/formation I say RUBBISH!

House league started Monday, (7v7) I drew out a 3-2-1 formation and jobs in about 10 mins to 8 and 9 year olds and they played it and got it.

This is not rocket science, you tell Lambe he is playing DM and he will do it, tell him to play RB and he will.

Making a tweak from 4-3-3 as a forward to 4-4-2 as AM is nothing for him.

As for 'parking the bus' hell, I have advocated for 5-3-2 so I am guilty of the same attitude, and you know what... Why not? Control your half completely, work the mid hard/well and move up on your chances.

Would you really rather lose 4-3 than win 1-0?


Like many other people said before,I rather lose 4-3 in attractive game than win 1-0 with Preki ball,and I stay by that.

ManUtd4ever
06-14-2012, 07:56 PM
If Mariner ultilizes a traditional 4-5-1, it would be a relatively minor adjustment to our previous formation, with a more compact midfield...

-----------------Kocic-----------------

------------Henry----Cann-----------

Eckersley---------------------Morgan

----------------Frings-----------------

---------JDG-----------Avila----------

Lambe------------------------Johnson

-------------Koevermans-------------

KGH
06-14-2012, 08:41 PM
Koevs let it slip in the interview posted. They're going to be running a 4-4-2 with a "if you get in trouble kick it long" plan.

Auzzy
06-14-2012, 08:44 PM
^ Yup, check Danny's interview here: http://www.torontofc.ca/video

SKB
06-14-2012, 09:01 PM
I was very concerned about out Danny's comment. Don't take chances just kick it away. Are we returning to Preki ball? I hope not that was like watching paint dry. Mariner is a fill in for the rest of the season till we get the right coach.

Ajax TFC
06-14-2012, 09:07 PM
^lol "some day when Germany is losing I will send him a text"
the rest of it made me want to:banghead:
It can't be a good thing that the only thing that Kocermans could relay about the system is that when you run into trouble, kick it long. I mean, that's not really something they have to practice, that's something that the players do by default if not told otherwise

Auzzy
06-14-2012, 09:12 PM
^ Indeed, we were already seeing more & more long clearances out of the defence under Winter, likely to reduce the risk at the back. Also, he obviously realized he wasn't going to get any central defenders who would be calm & skilled enough to pass out of the back with any consistency. For example, Kocic was almost never doing throws or short passes any more, almost always booting it as far as possible. (Except that pass to Frings in the Chicago game...)

Auzzy
06-14-2012, 09:48 PM
Interview with Adrian Cann also interesting. Differences are "black & white" (= not just minor tweaks); playing "more direct" (fack if they lose all the good passing they finally learned in MF and towards the front, I'll be SOOOO pissed off); "really straightforward" etc.

Also two-part sit down with Mariner amongst the videos, with more clues: http://www.torontofc.ca/video

T-boy
06-15-2012, 08:17 AM
You are not a professional soccer player so if you don't understand 433 nothing wrong with that and that does not make you stupid.
Like I said, system is not difficult when 12 years old boys can executed very well after less than 2 years practicing and playing it.

I'm guessing that you DIDN'T see De Klerk and Rongen's description of their system? If you did, then you would know what I was talking about when I'm saying that their system is ludcrously complicated!

Their system isn't a "normal" 4-3-3, its an extremely tactical, triangular shaped passing system that involves every player working off each other to create angular passes and filling in holes.

I learned 4-3-3 when I was a kid and clearly understand how to play in a 4-3-3 system. But this system that they were trying to get the MLS players to play, was extremely complicated. The wingers aren't allowed to run down the wing, he full backs have to, while the wingers move in a diagonal inside. The full back's aren't allowed to pass just anywhere, they HAVE to pass only to designated numbers, while the DM's have to fill in any space left once the pass is chosen.

This system isn't as simple as "they needed to learn to play 4-3-3" - its a very complex system of movement and trigonometry. I have no doubt that the average professional soccer player (in ANY league) would find this system complicated. I've seen League 2 teams play 4-3-3, but its not this version, that can only really be played by the worlds best players (hence they only cite teams like Barcelona when they are talking about it!).

I've spoken to several soccer friends about Rongen and De Klerk's description of their system, and everybody agree's that it is extremely difficult to fathom what they are talking about and understand!

T-boy
06-15-2012, 08:19 AM
Interview with Adrian Cann also interesting. Differences are "black & white" (= not just minor tweaks); playing "more direct" (fack if they lose all the good passing they finally learned in MF and towards the front, I'll be SOOOO pissed off); "really straightforward" etc.

Also two-part sit down with Mariner amongst the videos, with more clues: http://www.torontofc.ca/video

To be honest, I haven't ever seen this "good passing" that you are talking about. The amount of times they were passing to the opponent or kicking the ball out of play!

We shouldn't fear a more direct style of play. As I've said before, TFC's best goals under Winter were BOTH down to direct play (Frei to Martina, and Santos heading down from a long ball to Gordon). If TFC can score more DIRECT goals like that, I'd be extremely happy!

T-boy
06-15-2012, 08:21 AM
To hear Mariner say that all it will take is a little tinkering in one breath and then talk about the players dictating the formation and tactics seems like double talk to me.

There will be no "little tinkering" at all. It's going to look like a new team. After all, is Mariner capable of tinkering with the 4-3-3? I doubt it. LOL

T-Boy, you need to remember that Mariner was part of the 0-9 start. He's not some new hire out of nowhere. His fingerprints are on this team and, as such, he played a part in our poor start.

So...you're "total trust" in Mariner is a bit misguided. To me, much like Winter, he's proven otherwise. Incapable of getting good players and incapable of buying into the system that was implemented 18 months ago. After hearing what his views on football are, I have no idea why he was ever hired in the first place. He never should have been associated with this club. Another fuck up by the front office.

Mariner and Brennan "coaching". LOL

That's a joke of epic proportions. Please tell me what advice either of those guys can impart on a player like Torsten Frings or Danny Koevermans. LOL

For sure Mariner shouldn't get a free pass - but none of us ACTUALLY know at this point how much influence Mariner has hd on the current squad. We are all making a number of assumptions, but we have nothing concrete to base our opinion on Mariner right now. Time will tell if Winter had the majority of influence or not. But until this point, Mariner should be welcomed with an open slate (just like Di Matteo at Chelsea, as if he was judged on his assistant roll, he would have NEVER been given the head coach roll!).

T-boy
06-15-2012, 08:24 AM
Like many other people said before,I rather lose 4-3 in attractive game than win 1-0 with Preki ball,and I stay by that.

I'll be chearing when TFC win 1-0 and I'd love it. I'd personally prefer a win every week than losing "playing pretty football".

Do you really hear fans booing when their team win the league by playing ugly? Did you see the Wimbledon fans of the 80's hating their team even though they were playing ugly football? Nope!

Canary10
06-15-2012, 08:26 AM
I'm guessing that you DIDN'T see De Klerk and Rongen's description of their system? If you did, then you would know what I was talking about when I'm saying that their system is ludcrously complicated!

Their system isn't a "normal" 4-3-3, its an extremely tactical, triangular shaped passing system that involves every player working off each other to create angular passes and filling in holes.

I learned 4-3-3 when I was a kid and clearly understand how to play in a 4-3-3 system. But this system that they were trying to get the MLS players to play, was extremely complicated. The wingers aren't allowed to run down the wing, he full backs have to, while the wingers move in a diagonal inside. The full back's aren't allowed to pass just anywhere, they HAVE to pass only to designated numbers, while the DM's have to fill in any space left once the pass is chosen.

This system isn't as simple as "they needed to learn to play 4-3-3" - its a very complex system of movement and trigonometry. I have no doubt that the average professional soccer player (in ANY league) would find this system complicated. I've seen League 2 teams play 4-3-3, but its not this version, that can only really be played by the worlds best players (hence they only cite teams like Barcelona when they are talking about it!).

I've spoken to several soccer friends about Rongen and De Klerk's description of their system, and everybody agree's that it is extremely difficult to fathom what they are talking about and understand!

I agree with you. They tried to do a more complex 4-3-3 with the pass and move. I think the team could have done better with a more rigid 4-3-3 with responsibilities and positioning more clearly defined. Winter was doing more of that as the season wore on.

There are some good things and bad things in those interviews. I like the idea of playing more direct. Still think 4-4-2 is not the right way to go, especially in the game coming up against KC. 4-5-1 and winning the numbers game in the midfield would be better. We'll see.

Canary10
06-15-2012, 08:29 AM
I'll be chearing when TFC win 1-0 and I'd love it. I'd personally prefer a win every week than losing "playing pretty football".

Do you really hear fans booing when their team win the league by playing ugly? Did you see the Wimbledon fans of the 80's hating their team even though they were playing ugly football? Nope!

Fans boo managers who don't play the team's style of play all the time. Big Sam got his share from Hammers fans. AVB from Chelsea fans. The one thing Preki's tenure showed is TFC fans want more offensively oriented football (however that's done they probably don't care).

denime
06-15-2012, 08:34 AM
For sure Mariner shouldn't get a free pass - but none of us ACTUALLY know at this point how much influence Mariner has hd on the current squad. We are all making a number of assumptions, but we have nothing concrete to base our opinion on Mariner right now. Time will tell if Winter had the majority of influence or not. But until this point, Mariner should be welcomed with an open slate (just like Di Matteo at Chelsea, as if he was judged on his assistant roll, he would have NEVER been given the head coach roll!).

You can not compare Di Matteo with Mariner,Mariner was directly involved in players signings,it is well know that he and Kockharen stopped few player transfers that Winter wanted to see at TFC.Mariner can not be welcomed with open slate since he was here from day one when Winter took over and Mariner asking players "if you get in trouble kick it long" is reason why people did not like Preki even when we were winning 1-0,otherwise Preki would be still here.

T-boy
06-15-2012, 08:36 AM
Fans boo managers who don't play the team's style of play all the time. Big Sam got his share from Hammers fans. AVB from Chelsea fans. The one thing Preki's tenure showed is TFC fans want more offensively oriented football (however that's done they probably don't care).

Preki's style of defensive football is extreme though. He was VERY defensive minded. Really his team played like his personality (dry and humourless!). Listening to an interview with Prekiy was like watching paint dry for hours and hours and hours and zzzzzzzz!

Some people on this forum have to realise that not ALL 4-4-2, or even long ball or defensive football, has to be as DULL as Preki's extremely boring football!

T-boy
06-15-2012, 08:37 AM
[/B]

You can not compare Di Matteo with Mariner,Mariner was directly involved in players signings,it is well know that he and Kockharen stopped few player transfers that Winter wanted to see at TFC.Mariner can not be welcomed with open slate since he was here from day one when Winter took over and Mariner asking players "if you get in trouble kick it long" is reason why people did not like Preki even when we were winning 1-0,otherwise Preki would be still here.

See my post above about Preki.

Preki wasn't just asking them to "if you get in trouble kick it", he was asking them to "kick it long ALL THE TIME".

There is a big difference.

Auzzy
06-15-2012, 08:37 AM
To be honest, I haven't ever seen this "good passing" that you are talking about. The amount of times they were passing to the opponent or kicking the ball out of play!

We shouldn't fear a more direct style of play. As I've said before, TFC's best goals under Winter were BOTH down to direct play (Frei to Martina, and Santos heading down from a long ball to Gordon). If TFC can score more DIRECT goals like that, I'd be extremely happy!

I was fully expecting a comment like that. Then you haven't been watching the games. I'm not saying everything was great; there were a HUGE number of problems under Winter. However, they finally learned to do a significant number of quick & dangerous passing plays per game, compared with the TFC of old, where you would only ever see opposing teams do that consistently. Of course there were still big problems -- for example, very few of the current TFC players know how to slow the play down when needed. If every attack build-up is top speed, it's extremely difficult to execute consistently (especially with our players, which are mostly young and not that great), and you will often make a bad pass or kick it out the side. And your players will tire quickly. You end up with a fair number of goal-scoring chances, lots of crosses, more corners in favour than we ever had before -- but with a low possession % per game, many quick turnovers, and lots of resulting pressure on your overburdened defense. Frings & Soolsma are about the only players that come to mind that are able to slow the play down & maintain some calm possession when needed.


I would have hoped a compentent coach would see what's working well & improve it. Teach the guys to mix lots of calm play with a few quick passing attacks, and yes some direct play. We will see what Mariner does. I just hope it's not too one-dimensional.

Oldtimer
06-15-2012, 09:20 AM
It seems like Mariner is trying to significantly "dumb down" the game. Maybe that's all we can expect. Maybe the bulk of MLS players can't play a more beautiful game. Maybe we'll have to wait until the academy players grow up to see quality football here. Maybe we should just shrug our shoulders and say "MLS, it is what it is."

Somehow, though, I've seen glimpses of something better. Maybe the Dutch/Spanish system is too complicated for MLS regulars. However, RSL played very attractive football against Mexican sides... I could hardly believe what I was watching as coming from MLS! We've also seen some good football from Seattle and KC.

I fear maybe Mariner's taking too far the other extreme. Somewhere, a midpoint between the extremes of Barcelona and League 2 is the right point for a good MLS squad, not all the way to League 2 hoofball.

MLS has progressed since Mariner's early days with the Revs, and maybe we don't need to dumb down the game quite so much as he seems to want. We'll see what he actually does soon enough, though.

ag futbol
06-15-2012, 09:48 AM
It seems like Mariner is trying to significantly "dumb down" the game. Maybe that's all we can expect. Maybe the bulk of MLS players can't play a more beautiful game. Maybe we'll have to wait until the academy players grow up to see quality football here. Maybe we should just shrug our shoulders and say "MLS, it is what it is."

I don't quite understand this. In your opinion, are there some teams in this league that play decent football? In mine, there certainly are. NY, DCU, RSL, and FCD to name a few. I think I would be pretty happy to see TFC put out a team like one of those on a weekly basis.

While I agree the academy is important, I think TFC's primary problem is still scouting and roster management. The players we bring in are usually terrible and I don't think anyone we have (or had) on staff knew where to find the talent we sorely need to improve the squad. As far as regular roster players go, money has been mis-spent and priorities have been backwards. I think that's a pretty common theme stretching all the way back to year one.

While I'm probably just as wary of Mariner as you are, I only write the above to point out that it's not a hopeless (or thankless) task for TFC to build a MLS team like many others have, while they wait for the academy to ramp up.

Edit: I just re-read your post and saw you referenced RSL. Fair enough! But I still think that just underscores that a different model from the one Winter was moving towards can work. I totally agree I'd rather see someone play this style than boredom ball and see 'lump it to the big lad in the middle' every week.

Beach_Red
06-15-2012, 09:48 AM
Right now I hope Mariner is just trying to stop the bleeding, stop letting in 3-4 goals a game and stop allowing the other team to play the game they want - score a goal or two and then watch TFC pass it around for a while before taking it back.

Did people really complain about Preki's team winning boring, 1-0 games? Seems like a long time ago that this team had the lead against a good team and held it. Did Preki's firing have more to do with the way he handled contracts or with his coaching?

We don't have to shrug and say, "MLS is what it is," but we do have to recognize that TFC is the worst team in the league and has a long way to go to be one of the best teams. Maybe this is one step back to take two steps forward, maybe it'll be a disaster, who knows.

Greatest Ripoff
06-15-2012, 09:58 AM
Right now I hope Mariner is just trying to stop the bleeding, stop letting in 3-4 goals a game


In the past 7 matches under Winter, the team had 4 cleans sheets and once gave up 3 goals. I think the bleeding has ben under control.

ag futbol
06-15-2012, 10:00 AM
Right now I hope Mariner is just trying to stop the bleeding, stop letting in 3-4 goals a game and stop allowing the other team to play the game they want - score a goal or two and then watch TFC pass it around for a while before taking it back.

Did people really complain about Preki's team winning boring, 1-0 games? Seems like a long time ago that this team had the lead against a good team and held it. Did Preki's firing have more to do with the way he handled contracts or with his coaching?

We don't have to shrug and say, "MLS is what it is," but we do have to recognize that TFC is the worst team in the league and has a long way to go to be one of the best teams. Maybe this is one step back to take two steps forward, maybe it'll be a disaster, who knows.
Somebody made a good point a while back about TFC marketing Preki as the guy who would push us over the hump, when really the second he came in it was re-build time. The salary levels from the prior year were unsustainable and TFC was destined to blow-up regardless of whether we made the playoffs or not.

That being said, I think the observation about him being the coach of MLS past rather than the future is apt. We didn't have enough 1-0 wins to keep people happy and when we were losing there were no redeeming qualities of the team, it was just a bunch of grinders playing a rigid formation. These younger guys like Kreis, Olsen, etc.. they just seem to get something the previous generation of coaches do not and they are surpassing the old guard rather quickly it seems.

Canary10
06-15-2012, 10:01 AM
Right now I hope Mariner is just trying to stop the bleeding, stop letting in 3-4 goals a game and stop allowing the other team to play the game they want - score a goal or two and then watch TFC pass it around for a while before taking it back.

Did people really complain about Preki's team winning boring, 1-0 games? Seems like a long time ago that this team had the lead against a good team and held it. Did Preki's firing have more to do with the way he handled contracts or with his coaching?

We don't have to shrug and say, "MLS is what it is," but we do have to recognize that TFC is the worst team in the league and has a long way to go to be one of the best teams. Maybe this is one step back to take two steps forward, maybe it'll be a disaster, who knows.

Yeah they did. People didn't want to win ugly.

Beach_Red
06-15-2012, 10:09 AM
Yeah they did. People didn't want to win ugly.

It's marketing genuis to get people to complain about winning. Imagine, people in Toronto complaining about winning ;).

I hope that in a few years the team will be where it would have been had it stayed the course with Winter, just maybe take a different route to get there. But they do have a tough road ahead. The whole league is getting better. They'll have to scout and convince the kids with the most potential to join their academy and then they'll have to convince them to stay with TFC - that's tough to do when your first team is described by it's own player as the worst team ithe world.

ManUtd4ever
06-15-2012, 10:13 AM
TFC became too predictable under Winter and opponents were breaking us down easily as a result. The overwhelming majority of our (league worst) goals against were scored on the counter attack, with teams just waiting to pounce on an inevitable errant pass in the defensive half of the pitch. I see nothing wrong with a conservative approach on the defensive end.

Furthermore, contrary to popular belief, I thought TFC relied too much on the long ball in the offensive third of the pitch under Winter, with sequences breaking down far too often as a result of a constant reliance on lobbing balls into the box from the wings. I think a more direct attacking style that invlolves more variance and creativity through the middle of the offensive third of the pitch could be more effective as well.

Let's not forget that TFC wasn't exactly an offensive juggernaut under Winter. Our offensive production under Winter was just as pathetic as our defensive record.

Abou Sky
06-15-2012, 10:57 AM
Like many other people said before,I rather lose 4-3 in attractive game than win 1-0 with Preki ball,and I stay by that.

Wow... I don't really know what to say to that.

If I am coaching kids I would rather the kids play proper than put a big kid in front of the net and hoof it up to him to score, but that is about development. If I am talking about a pro-team, I want to win.

Did you find the Canada vs. Honduras game interesting/attractive?

I ask because personally I thought it was phenomenal, even a 0-0 result it was an amazing game, gorgeous to watch and I don't know the number of times I said 'wow' during that match.

I feel sad that I have to go back to watching MLS live again after that, I would take 10 of those over 10 4-3 'exciting' losses (meaning goals scored)

I want QUALITY play on the field, I want to say 'wow nice ball' and 'here it comes... wow!' as I watch a gorgeous play unfold.

Beach_Red
06-15-2012, 11:21 AM
Like many other people said before,I rather lose 4-3 in attractive game than win 1-0 with Preki ball,and I stay by that.

I realize it's not what you mean, but that sounds like all those complaints from Americans that soccer is too low scoring and boring.

Just One Man
06-15-2012, 11:31 AM
My God. That people think they can demand "beautiful football" from an MLS side is an absolute joke. No, actually, it is a joke when Brazilians demand it of their national team. Demanding beautiful football from TFC is downright delusional.

In retrospect, the "We Deserve Better" banner was probably indicative of a serious problem with the most strident of TFC supporters. This notion that, not only do we deserve a team, but a SSS, and not just a SSS, but a SSS with real grass...and a roof...and we don't just deserve an MLS team, we deserve a winning MLS team. And not just a winning MLS team, but a winning MLS team that plays aesthetically pleasing football.

And I am sure that, should the hypothetical day come, when TFC is playing beautiful, winning football, we will start to hear complaints about something else, whether it be a lack of Canadians, or a lack of "grit", or whatever else TFC fans think they "deserve".

As for the actual formation, judging by the doom and gloom around here, I assume that without Winter's master plan, all eleven players will just wander about aimlessly or chase the ball like a bunch of 6 year olds. If only we still had Aron Winter to implement his obviously dominant "system".

Pookie
06-15-2012, 11:39 AM
I realize it's not what you mean, but that sounds like all those complaints from Americans that soccer is too low scoring and boring.

Maybe we are getting a little bit too micro?

In any sport, there are teams that innovate and teams that follow. From the Shotgun formation in NA Football to the "Trap" in the NHL, some teams are motivated to try something new. That new thing might not be exciting but it can be effective. If effective, you can be sure that other teams will try to copy it.

TFC and "Total Football" wasn't about a revolutionary world wide system but it was relatively new to the MLS.

Seems like much of the concern is that we've abandoned the new thing and gone back to what most teams are doing. We will slug away at a traditional MLS style and may improve our results over the short term.

Ironically, if SKC and others that attempt possession minded football have success, there will be more that abandon the approach that we have appeared to have fallen back on.

Just seems like we are out of ideas and that's depressing. We might win a few games but does anyone expect trophies as a result of going this route? Further, does anyone think that Mariner can get them back the CCL Semi Finals, playing a different and apparently more traditional MLS stlye?

T-boy
06-15-2012, 11:50 AM
It seems like Mariner is trying to significantly "dumb down" the game. Maybe that's all we can expect. Maybe the bulk of MLS players can't play a more beautiful game. Maybe we'll have to wait until the academy players grow up to see quality football here. Maybe we should just shrug our shoulders and say "MLS, it is what it is."

Somehow, though, I've seen glimpses of something better. Maybe the Dutch/Spanish system is too complicated for MLS regulars. However, RSL played very attractive football against Mexican sides... I could hardly believe what I was watching as coming from MLS! We've also seen some good football from Seattle and KC.

I fear maybe Mariner's taking too far the other extreme. Somewhere, a midpoint between the extremes of Barcelona and League 2 is the right point for a good MLS squad, not all the way to League 2 hoofball.

MLS has progressed since Mariner's early days with the Revs, and maybe we don't need to dumb down the game quite so much as he seems to want. We'll see what he actually does soon enough, though.

When was the last time you (or the majority of people on this forum) saw a League 2 game?

I must say I'm always totally surprised every time I go see my (original) team Oxford United in League 2. They play some VERY good football, and the quality of games always surprises me. The days where lower league English football is "hoofball" is far behind us. Oxford actually play 4-3-3 and play it up the wings and then a short pass into the striker (James Constable, VERY good player who could easily play a league or two above, and is a much better striker than most of the players we've ever had as TFC number 9). Paolo Di Canio had Swindon playing some extremely attractive passing football last season. I think most of you guys would be very surprised at the overall quality of League 2 football these days. Northampton are the only team in League 2 that really play the long ball (as they have a GIANT playing up front...he's also as wide as he is tall, haha!) these days.

Beach_Red
06-15-2012, 12:09 PM
Maybe we are getting a little bit too micro?

In any sport, there are teams that innovate and teams that follow. From the Shotgun formation in NA Football to the "Trap" in the NHL, some teams are motivated to try something new. That new thing might not be exciting but it can be effective. If effective, you can be sure that other teams will try to copy it.

TFC and "Total Football" wasn't about a revolutionary world wide system but it was relatively new to the MLS.

Seems like much of the concern is that we've abandoned the new thing and gone back to what most teams are doing. We will slug away at a traditional MLS style and may improve our results over the short term.

Ironically, if SKC and others that attempt possession minded football have success, there will be more that abandon the approach that we have appeared to have fallen back on.

Just seems like we are out of ideas and that's depressing. We might win a few games but does anyone expect trophies as a result of going this route? Further, does anyone think that Mariner can get them back the CCL Semi Finals, playing a different and apparently more traditional MLS stlye?

Getting into the CCL semi finals will depend a lot on how important it is to the other MLS teams we'd have to beat to get there. Even a more traditional MLS style likely would have beaten Dallas (everyone was beating them at that time) and maybe even LA at that time. One game, anything can happen, right ;).

I still think long term plan is the same but someone recognized that it's vert, vert difficult to convince players tomsign with your team and acadamy kids to commit to an organization when the first team is described by its own player as, "the worst team in the world." That says a lot about the whole organization.

It's far from a given that this organization has the ability to build from within but is there a possibility that short-term results with players that will be gone in two years a bad thing?

This organization (and all its teams) seriously underestimate their competition year after year. They never talk about what they need to do to beat the other teams, just what they want themselves to look like.

Maybe we're getting too micro (or maybe I don't know what that means ;)), but this team needs to be competitive in the league its in in order to build anything.

DoubleUp
06-15-2012, 12:24 PM
Getting into the CCL semi finals will depend a lot on how important it is to the other MLS teams we'd have to beat to get there. Even a more traditional MLS style likely would have beaten Dallas (everyone was beating them at that time) and maybe even LA at that time. One game, anything can happen, right ;).

I still think long term plan is the same but someone recognized that it's vert, vert difficult to convince players tomsign with your team and acadamy kids to commit to an organization when the first team is described by its own player as, "the worst team in the world." That says a lot about the whole organization.

It's far from a given that this organization has the ability to build from within but is there a possibility that short-term results with players that will be gone in two years a bad thing?

This organization (and all its teams) seriously underestimate their competition year after year. They never talk about what they need to do to beat the other teams, just what they want themselves to look like.

Maybe we're getting too micro (or maybe I don't know what that means ;)), but this team needs to be competitive in the league its in in order to build anything.

I agree! its like everything we do especially as far as scouting is concerned is always a year behind the league. There's no question the quality of the football has drastically improved and imo we're always a step behind that.

Fort York Redcoat
06-15-2012, 12:28 PM
My God. That people think they can demand "beautiful football" from an MLS side is an absolute joke. No, actually, it is a joke when Brazilians demand it of their national team. Demanding beautiful football from TFC is downright delusional.

In retrospect, the "We Deserve Better" banner was probably indicative of a serious problem with the most strident of TFC supporters. This notion that, not only do we deserve a team, but a SSS, and not just a SSS, but a SSS with real grass...and a roof...and we don't just deserve an MLS team, we deserve a winning MLS team. And not just a winning MLS team, but a winning MLS team that plays aesthetically pleasing football.

And I am sure that, should the hypothetical day come, when TFC is playing beautiful, winning football, we will start to hear complaints about something else, whether it be a lack of Canadians, or a lack of "grit", or whatever else TFC fans think they "deserve".

As for the actual formation, judging by the doom and gloom around here, I assume that without Winter's master plan, all eleven players will just wander about aimlessly or chase the ball like a bunch of 6 year olds. If only we still had Aron Winter to implement his obviously dominant "system".

So no one deserves better football or any improvement and you had no confidence in Winter? Just trying to follow the hyperbole and sarcasm. I've been through the thread and don't see a formation actually given. Care to contribute?

I'm pretty confident a middle ground can be found between the worst hoofball and total football.

Oldtimer
06-15-2012, 12:28 PM
When was the last time you (or the majority of people on this forum) saw a League 2 game?



Gotta admit it's been quite some time... and what I remember is 4-4-2 longball... if it's improved, that's great.

Where is Andy Welsh these days? :D (Just checked, league 1 Carlisle, not bad for him).

Oldtimer
06-15-2012, 12:31 PM
I agree! its like everything we do especially as far as scouting is concerned is always a year behind the league. There's no question the quality of the football has drastically improved and imo we're always a step behind that.

That's the thing. If any of our teams from 2008-2010 were playing in 2005, they would have won the MLS Cup! The amount of progress in this league is impressive.

denime
06-15-2012, 12:56 PM
Wow... I don't really know what to say to that.

If I am coaching kids I would rather the kids play proper than put a big kid in front of the net and hoof it up to him to score, but that is about development. If I am talking about a pro-team, I want to win.

Did you find the Canada vs. Honduras game interesting/attractive?

I ask because personally I thought it was phenomenal, even a 0-0 result it was an amazing game, gorgeous to watch and I don't know the number of times I said 'wow' during that match.

I feel sad that I have to go back to watching MLS live again after that, I would take 10 of those over 10 4-3 'exciting' losses (meaning goals scored)

I want QUALITY play on the field, I want to say 'wow nice ball' and 'here it comes... wow!' as I watch a gorgeous play unfold.

Than why did ML$E fired Preki in the first place?Preki was playing defense first he was getting results,we were few games away from making a playoffs with Gargans FFS.

People were complaining back than that they rather see entertaining game and lose than Preki ball,and for some strange reason many were happy when Dasovic took over and TFC got more goals scored against in first 5 games than with Preki in last 14 games. We got what we asked for,ML$E was listening and they wanted to make sure costumer is happy and will buy Season Tickets again,they fired Preki after 9 months and sold us "total football" with Winter as Head coach.

Idea sounded great,coach choice was wrong,so instead of hiring a coach capable of running 433 formation while containing pass and move fluid attacking system,we are now back to square one,defense,boot,run and you are ok with that.

Let's see how long is going to take before people realize we are being fucked from ML$E once again in order to renew ST,and not to get what they promised 18 months ago,club philosophy change and long term stability.


and Please don't compare NT teams with MLS, apples and oranges,both teams knew how to control the ball and possession much better tan any MLS team.

Abou Sky
06-15-2012, 05:40 PM
Than why did ML$E fired Preki in the first place?Preki was playing defense first he was getting results,we were few games away from making a playoffs with Gargans FFS.

People were complaining back than that they rather see entertaining game and lose than Preki ball,and for some strange reason many were happy when Dasovic took over and TFC got more goals scored against in first 5 games than with Preki in last 14 games. We got what we asked for,ML$E was listening and they wanted to make sure costumer is happy and will buy Season Tickets again,they fired Preki after 9 months and sold us "total football" with Winter as Head coach.

Idea sounded great,coach choice was wrong,so instead of hiring a coach capable of running 433 formation while containing pass and move fluid attacking system,we are now back to square one,defense,boot,run and you are ok with that.

Let's see how long is going to take before people realize we are being fucked from ML$E once again in order to renew ST,and not to get what they promised 18 months ago,club philosophy change and long term stability.


and Please don't compare NT teams with MLS, apples and oranges,both teams knew how to control the ball and possession much better tan any MLS team.

I think we THINK MLSE is screwing us, but really if they are listening to the fans they should be applauded for that. Isnt that what a company should do? Listen to their customers?

We may just need to start looking in the mirror to find the root of TFC's problems.

All that said, I think a defensive game can still be exciting.

Kaz
06-16-2012, 03:29 AM
I just wish every reporter didn't keep asking.. what system what system.

Winter screwed up... When key players were injured he didn't adapt in a way that worked, and his system relied entirely on using Frings in the back and Koev in the front. and if one or the other or both are at form then everything falls apart.

Mariner is saying he doesn't care about the system, and will play what will work with the players he's got. What he's got is 2 Centre Backs that don't have loads of pace, a lot of young players, some older players and some utility players. If you look at DC United they have 9-10 players that are 24 or younger... we have 16 many of whom are primary choices, followed by another player of similar age as the second choice.

Yet mistakes are being made, the mistakes are either a suggestion that the players are the wrong players, or the system was being over complicated, or was not a good system and was easy to anticipate and strip the player of the ball. Be it because the opponent was playing football where our boys were thinking about playing football too much,

See with 8 to 15 year olds in house leagues they aren't the most talented, they aren't the most aware, and the systems used are usually a little more fluid.

What we have seen on the pitch this year suggests a few things, one of or a combination must be true.

Either Winter made bad managerial choices in filling out positions in the club to make things viable when key players are hurt or are in a slump. Winter was not conveying the system well enough for the player to full understand and grasp it, he was changing what he wanted players to do, the system was to simple to anticipate by opposing sides, or just didn't work in anyway against counter attacking sides, or there isn't enough experience on the Pitch to make it viable at a professional level.

If the players aren't grasping the system you have to do a few things, either change things up either with players or system. If you are missing pieces (like defenders with enough pace and skill to go 1 v 1) then you need to get on your staff to find you one... (like in pre season) If the system isn't working due to no direct fault of the players then you need to change things up... If the players are not good, then don't sign them.

So we are left with several options. If Winter's system didn't work, because Winter designed it poorly, or because of player performance which he couldn't improve, which means he shouldn't be head coach and the new Coach needs to change something. If Winter's system wasn't working because of inexperience, lack of desire or lack of skill, then Winter needed to fix that in the off season, and either remove the guy bring in the bad players or make sure the right players are being found. If that isn't' happening then Winter screwed up and needed to be replace, and Mariner did and does too.
The only way I can see that Winter didn't screw up this season more then the players is if Mariner intentionally sent him players that would work for him if he were coaching his way, and was trying to sabotage Winter. Every other scenario is left with Winter holding the bag.

Mariner now is left with a choice, do you try to keep working to bring about Winter's system and make a few tweaks to make it work, or do you look at the players and say, well if we change a few things here and there, we can win now with these players and we can work everything else out later.

denime
06-16-2012, 06:37 AM
I think we THINK MLSE is screwing us, but really if they are listening to the fans they should be applauded for that. Isnt that what a company should do? Listen to their customers?

We may just need to start looking in the mirror to find the root of TFC's problems.

All that said, I think a defensive game can still be exciting.

You see this is the problem,they are not company,they are soccer club/team and should be run as one.
When it comes who is coach is,or what players to sign we,fans are last one they should listen,but they do because they are not interested in success on the filed but more on their accounts.

v00d00daddy
06-16-2012, 06:59 AM
You see this is the problem,they are not company,they are soccer club/team and should be run as one.
When it comes who is coach is,or what players to sign we,fans are last one they should listen,but they do because they are not interested in success on the filed but more on their accounts.

Agree 100%.

When it comes to cost of beer or seat relocation process then yes....the front office should listen to the supporters concerns.

When it comes to on field product the front office should hire a COMPETENT person to run the squad and that person shouldn't listen to the fans at all when it comes to the type of football that should be played/players that should be selected.

Otherwise you end up with the inmates running the asylum

ag futbol
06-16-2012, 07:53 AM
Agreed, maybe fans, supporters, SSH's, have some sort of input on overall strategy but shouldn't be involved in any major way otherwise. Fans want attacking football, give them attacking football, but let the manager figure put how to make it happen.

The major issue with this team isn't the overall idea, it's that execution of the idea has been poor. Comes down to the wrong people chosen to be managers and a 'club president' without any background in the sport. I used to make fun of the whitecaps for having bob lenarduzzi, but when you figure out that our equivalent is a slimey corporporate douche ... It looks pretty good in comparison.

ag futbol
06-16-2012, 07:57 AM
You see this is the problem,they are not company,they are soccer club/team and should be run as one.
When it comes who is coach is,or what players to sign we,fans are last one they should listen,but they do because they are not interested in success on the filed but more on their accounts.
Great point, it's like letting your company be run by sales people. They focus soo much on what sells, they forget to take into account basically everything else

Abou Sky
06-16-2012, 08:39 AM
So maybe the next TIFO should be 'DON'T LISTEN TO US'

ManUtd4ever
06-16-2012, 08:40 AM
So maybe the next TIFO should be 'DON'T LISTEN TO US'

LOL, yes it should.

DoubleUp
06-16-2012, 12:57 PM
You see this is the problem,they are not company,they are soccer club/team and should be run as one.
When it comes who is coach is,or what players to sign we,fans are last one they should listen,but they do because they are not interested in success on the filed but more on their accounts.

I think Tfc's re problem is they only listen to a select group of fans/people who to tend favour, hardworking get stuck in types who lack technical ability and end up being useless.

anybody with any sort of technical skill we ran them out.

Mlse just listens to the wrong fan voice, time and time again.

Shakes McQueen
06-16-2012, 08:08 PM
Right now I hope Mariner is just trying to stop the bleeding, stop letting in 3-4 goals a game and stop allowing the other team to play the game they want - score a goal or two and then watch TFC pass it around for a while before taking it back.

Did people really complain about Preki's team winning boring, 1-0 games? Seems like a long time ago that this team had the lead against a good team and held it. Did Preki's firing have more to do with the way he handled contracts or with his coaching?

We don't have to shrug and say, "MLS is what it is," but we do have to recognize that TFC is the worst team in the league and has a long way to go to be one of the best teams. Maybe this is one step back to take two steps forward, maybe it'll be a disaster, who knows.

I recall several members, including one well-known ex-user here, saying they would rather lose but play an exciting scoring game, than win 1-0 playing Prekiball, while Preki was still here.

I also actually disagree that we have a really long way to go, to be a good team in MLS. We need a few good pieces, which can be found with enough competent scouting, and a proven coach to lead them. Hopefully Mariner can prove himself.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
06-16-2012, 08:14 PM
I think Tfc's re problem is they only listen to a select group of fans/people who to tend favour, hardworking get stuck in types who lack technical ability and end up being useless.

anybody with any sort of technical skill we ran them out.

Mlse just listens to the wrong fan voice, time and time again.

There's zero evidence of this. We've shipped lots of blue collar players out - even ones who became "fan favourites" for a limited period of time, like Dan Gargan.

Our entire roster has been turned over multiple times. There's no evidence of favouring certain types of players, because they all inevitably have been shipped out. And the only explicitly "technical" player who you could argue was "run out of town", might be DeRo. And even then, that was for things that took place off the pitch, and a specific incident on the pitch - not because of how he played the game. The guy was a widespread fan favourite until people started to stake positions over his behind-the-scenes contract politics.

- Scott

hodgkiss
06-17-2012, 07:03 PM
442 - maintaining wing play

----------------------kocic-------------------------
-------------henry-----------cann-----------------
-eckersley--------------------------morgan------
--------------frings-----de guzman---------------
-------soolsma-----------------johnson-----------
----------------------plata-------------------------
-------------------kovermans---------------------

subs - lambe>soolsma, silva>plata, avila>johnson



modified 442 - playing the ball on the ground through the centre:

-----------------------kocic------------------------
-----------------------henry-----------------------
---------eckersley------------morgan------------
----------------------stinson----------------------
--------frings--------------------de guzman------
----------------avila--------silva------------------
-----------------------plata------------------------
--------------------kovermans--------------------

subs - dunfield>stinson, burgos>avilla, cordon>silva

two completely different methods, formations and players involved

Canary10
06-19-2012, 11:14 AM
Some interesting stuff on TFC's website today. Seems 4-4-2 is here to stay, although we'll find out for sure in the next five days or so with the two games we have. I really believe that's a bad use of our current team. Looks like Soolsma and Plata are basically spare parts in the formation. Plata is an out and out winger. He doesn't play defence well enough to be a midfielder, and he can't stand up to the phyiscal play in the centre of the pitch. We paid a lot for a guy we've now made redundant. Looks like Lambe will be the first choice on the right. I like Lambe, but this leaves Soolsma, who has improved by leaps and bounds since he came to TFC, on the bench. I think Mariner has alienated a player who should be a regular starter.

We still reallly have no one to play left. Avila turned out to be a surprise playing at left forward from his regular central role, but I didn't like him at all as a left midfielder. He also doesn't play defence well enough. Maybe Hall should be considered there?

Anyway, will be interesting to see how the next five days or so unfold.

[NBF]
06-19-2012, 12:12 PM
Some interesting stuff on TFC's website today. Seems 4-4-2 is here to stay, although we'll find out for sure in the next five days or so with the two games we have. I really believe that's a bad use of our current team. Looks like Soolsma and Plata are basically spare parts in the formation. Plata is an out and out winger. He doesn't play defence well enough to be a midfielder, and he can't stand up to the phyiscal play in the centre of the pitch. We paid a lot for a guy we've now made redundant. Looks like Lambe will be the first choice on the right. I like Lambe, but this leaves Soolsma, who has improved by leaps and bounds since he came to TFC, on the bench. I think Mariner has alienated a player who should be a regular starter.

We still reallly have no one to play left. Avila turned out to be a surprise playing at left forward from his regular central role, but I didn't like him at all as a left midfielder. He also doesn't play defence well enough. Maybe Hall should be considered there?

Anyway, will be interesting to see how the next five days or so unfold.

A surprise because if you have a right footed central midfielder and you want to play him as a left midfielder. Thats surprising. I hope the season ends quick, but I have a feeling it will end right after the transfer window is over and we might even see another coaching change and end up with Jim Brennan as the manager.

This is my preference, 4-4-1-1:

-----------------------Kocic----------------------
Eckersley-----Cann------------Henry-------Morgan
--------------------------------------------------
------------DeGuzman----------Frings-------------
Silva---------------------------------------Johnson
-----------------------Avila-----------------------
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------Koevermans-------------------

Canary10
06-19-2012, 12:55 PM
;1502005']A surprise because if you have a right footed central midfielder and you want to play him as a left midfielder. Thats surprising. I hope the season ends quick, but I have a feeling it will end right after the transfer window is over and we might even see another coaching change and end up with Jim Brennan as the manager.

This is my preference, 4-4-1-1:

-----------------------Kocic----------------------
Eckersley-----Cann------------Henry-------Morgan
--------------------------------------------------
------------DeGuzman----------Frings-------------
Silva---------------------------------------Johnson
-----------------------Avila-----------------------
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------Koevermans-------------------


By suprise I meant that he looked pretty good there, especially against RSL. But yeah, he's right footed as you said, so a surprise there too. Playing as an inverted winger I guess. Playing as a midfielder you don't get the same chances to cut in as playing mid, and lose much of that advantage. Less accurate crossing off your wrong foot too.