Welcome Paul Mariner as new head coach

[T-boy]

While a lot of people are complaining about today's news - I think its worthwhile starting a new thread to welcome Mariner as TFC's new head coach. Let's get a positive thread together and welcome Paul to his new position.

I personally hope Paul has a succesful reign as TFC manager and wish him luck. I think he has the knowledge of MLS that he needs to be a success. The current squad is capable of getting results in my opinion, so I think Paul can have success if he plays his cards right and gets the squad playing with confidence in the next few games.

[Richard]

Nothing better than a hostile take over right?

Not holding my breath for results.

[C.Ronaldo]

he has no where to go but up

[Walms]

I think he looked good in the press conference today, he defended the work he's put in and it's clear he knows the direction to take this club now! Im optimistic

Best of luck Paul!!!

[Fort York Redcoat]

Good point that we have Mariner and he didn't hire himself, he has experience and wants to win. He may not want to talk system but after Winter went 0-9.

[Derko]

Let's go TFC

[PopePouri]

I support him. He may not have the results as head coach but he's seen it all in MLS.

[MartinUtd]

meh.

[boban]

This team is a joke. Winter gets a couple of wins under his belt and then TFC fires him
The coaching merry go round continues.
I'm out from dropping another dime on this club and owners.

[ManUtd4ever]

Well, the general consensus was that TFC's roster as currently constucted was drastically underachieving. It was also apparent that no decisions would be made regarding a permanent replacement for Winter with the pending transfer of ownership. Mariner and Rongen were the only candidates within the organization with MLS experience, and Rongen apparently preferred his role with the Academy. Therefore, in that context, Paul Mariner is a logical choice to assume the reigns at this point, and he has 2/3 of the season and the CCL to make his mark.

I think Mariner has relished this opportunity for a very long time, and hopefully, his football pedigree combined with his intricate knowledge of MLS will serve TFC well moving forward.

[West220Side]

Wishing Mariner Luck.






He still has Steve Nicols number right?

[MartinUtd]

I will say this much: If it was going to happen, I'm glad it's a month prior to the summer transfer update.

[maxpower]

I will say this much: If it was going to happen, I'm glad it's a month prior to the summer transfer update.

Was Mariner not the one who didn't realise that Plata had 500, 000 price tag on him at the draft? I wouldn't be too confident of Mariner's upcoming dealings in the transfer window.

[MartinUtd]

Well he's bought and paid for now. But it does seem we've got extra wingers with Soolsma, Lambe, Plata, Johnson and Hall. One of them will be sent backing.. maybe more.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Was Mariner not the one who didn't realise that Plata had 500, 000 price tag on him at the draft? I wouldn't be too confident of Mariner's upcoming dealings in the transfer window.

I cannot confirm but its been said that it was Cochrane that failed to mention the clause for whatever reason but this we do know- Mariner can acquire record number of players. And now it will be for his own standards and vision.

[ensco]

My advice to him would be to rent rather than buy.

I liked what he said about systems being overrated. I have argued that many times.

[MartinUtd]

My advice to him would be to rent rather than buy.



haha.. pretty good. Worth quoting.

[tfcleeds]

I'm willing to give him a chance. Seems a lot of people already have preconceptions about the guy, and assume he's in with Anselmi, Cochrane, et al. Maybe he is, but I'm not going to judge the guy before the first ball is kicked under his watch. Winter's record speaks for itself - he wasn't the guy to get us to the promised land. Not saying Mariner is either, but let's at least give him a chance.

[ManUtd4ever]

Many of us were promoting a similar coaching philosophy when Winter was at the helm...

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/06/07/new-boss-mariner-insists-players-will-define-system-toronto



Mariner said he does not want to tip his hand about tactics to TFC's next two opponents, Sporting Kansas City and the Houston Dynamo, but he appears to be taking a more flexible approach to the system he will use.

“All it is is minor adjustments,” he said during the media conference. “It really is. It’s not a massive overhaul.”

He feels Toronto’s players are good enough to be better than the team’s 1-9-0 league record. And he feels that the players are the key whatever formation is used.

“To me, it’s whatever works,” Mariner said. “I’ve played in different systems. I’ve played with some unbelievable managers. Bobby Robson came up with a 4-3-1-2 that nobody else had ever thought about. It’s all about players, it’s all about putting players in the right position to succeed.

“That’s my basic coaching philosophy. I want to put people with the right abilities, I want to put people with the right skill set, in the right positions and that’s it," he added. "Just give them some instruction and hope that the core of players that we’ve got [Torsten Frings] and [Danny Koevermans] and so on and so forth, they can lead the team on the field for me.”

He feels that a “decent technical player” with “decent intelligence” can play most systems.

“It just annoys me that we talk about systems so much,” he added. “Because to me the players dictate the system and the players dictate whether they’re picked or not. Not me. The players dictate it with their performances.”

[Code Red]

Welcome to your new role, Paul. I wish you much success.

Also, many thanks to Aron for his contributions to the club.

[Canary10]

I'm not at all happy about him being the new coach. He was complete shit in his only coaching job, and he sat in the wings to take over this job. I don't disagree that Winter had to go, but this is the choice of a management that picked winners in an internal fight, and just doesn't have the competence to do a real search for a real manager.

Having said that, we should keep our eye on the prize which is Tom Anselmi. Having debates about the coach is pointless while the team is rudderless at the top. I actually don't hate Ansemli, I think he just doesn't know enough about soccer to be guiding this ship. So I'll join in wishing Mariner luck. He's stepping into the crosshairs and that's a hard place for anyone to be. And he at least has a foundation to work from, because this isn't a bad team.

[T-boy]

I'm not at all happy about him being the new coach. He was complete shit in his only coaching job, and he sat in the wings to take over this job. I don't disagree that Winter had to go, but this is the choice of a management that picked winners in an internal fight, and just doesn't have the competence to do a real search for a real manager.

Having said that, we should keep our eye on the prize which is Tom Anselmi. Having debates about the coach is pointless while the team is rudderless at the top. I actually don't hate Ansemli, I think he just doesn't know enough about soccer to be guiding this ship. So I'll join in wishing Mariner luck. He's stepping into the crosshairs and that's a hard place for anyone to be. And he at least has a foundation to work from, because this isn't a bad team.

We DEFINITELY can't judge Mariner by the Plymouth coaching job! Plymouth were out of money, in fact they were on the brink of closing, and have been for a while now. Mariner was essentially coaching a team of no-hoper free transfers that nobody else wanted, with both hands tied behind his back, and trying to motivate a brunch of players who weren't getting paid on a regular basis. Before he took over, the majority of Plymouth's assets (ie. players worth anything) had already moved on as Plymouth couldn't offer them a sufficient contract. Plymouth were a league above themselves and Mariner actually got them a couple of decent results before their severe lack of player class caught up with them. None of this was Mariner's fault and he probably did as well as anybody could do in those circumstances.

[Canary10]

We DEFINITELY can't judge Mariner by the Plymouth coaching job! Plymouth were out of money, in fact they were on the brink of closing, and have been for a while now. Mariner was essentially coaching a team of no-hoper free transfers that nobody else wanted, with both hands tied behind his back, and trying to motivate a brunch of players who weren't getting paid on a regular basis. Before he took over, the majority of Plymouth's assets (ie. players worth anything) had already moved on as Plymouth couldn't offer them a sufficient contract. Plymouth were a league above themselves and Mariner actually got them a couple of decent results before their severe lack of player class caught up with them. None of this was Mariner's fault and he probably did as well as anybody could do in those circumstances.


Do you know why he was brought in there in the first place? May make you change your mind!

[ag futbol]

I wonder if Paul Mariner's thought process is something like this:

2009: fuck it can't get any worse than working for a cheap asshole like bob craft.

2010: fuck it can't get any worse than working for a club with no money

2011: fuck it can't get any worse than working for this Dutch guy

June 7th, 2012: fuck! How do I keep getting these jobs?

[T-boy]

Do you know why he was brought in there in the first place? May make you change your mind!

He wascoach at the club and replaced Paul Sturrock I believe.

Do you know something I don't? I don't believe there was anything more to his taking charge at Plymouth!

[Canary10]

He wascoach at the club and replaced Paul Sturrock I believe.

Do you know something I don't? I don't believe there was anything more to his taking charge at Plymouth!

He was brought in to be their World Cup ambassador to get a new stadium built to go along with England's 2018 World Cup bid. Then he ended up being their manager. It's a car crash.

[T-boy]

That doesn't put me off at all! The point was that you were judging Mariner on his managerial performance at Plymouth saying that he was shit at his job. But you also have to see the big picture that Plymouth were unmanageable at that time due to their major financial problems! Yes, Plymouth put all their eggs in one basket after they redeveloped their stadium, and hoped that their world cup bid would slve their problems, but that didn't happen. Mariner eventually ended up being their manager, and failed, along with the next 3 managers. I'm sure the best manager in the world wouldn't have made Plymouth a success at that time in their horrid situation.

[Canary10]

That doesn't put me off at all! The point was that you were judging Mariner on his managerial performance at Plymouth saying that he was shit at his job. But you also have to see the big picture that Plymouth were unmanageable at that time due to their major financial problems! Yes, Plymouth put all their eggs in one basket after they redeveloped their stadium, and hoped that their world cup bid would slve their problems, but that didn't happen. Mariner eventually ended up being their manager, and failed, along with the next 3 managers. I'm sure the best manager in the world wouldn't have made Plymouth a success at that time in their horrid situation.

That's a REALLY optimistic reading of the situation. He was hired for certain skills, but coaching was not one of them. Look, I meant what I said hgher up. I really wish him well despite the fact that I'm not at all happy about his appointment. Anselmi should be the target. I give him credit for stepping in to the line of fire, because he was safer where he was. And I still truly believe this team is not as bad as the record. He could look brilliant if they keep winning.

[T-boy]

That's a little bit more optimistic Canary :)

[Canary10]

I've played and watched the game for too long in this country. It's in no one's interests to see TFC fail. I really don't feel good about Mariner for a lot of reasons but Anselmi is not the right rudder for the club and Mariner isn't to blame for that. I actually think the record will improve in the next few months.

[Canary10]

In Venky's we trust. That's my feeling, and it may be a bit obscure to the casual fan but it's the truth.

[__wowza]

my two cents on the matter, most of the negativity is surrounding the decisions based on the club, not mariner being hired.
my main point of contention is that we had him, then we hired klinsman, he gave a shortlist of coaches, then BDK and winter got hired, then we fired winter, now we wasted time and money for someone we had all along. that's bad ownership, but i digress.

i wish this came sooner, before the first friendly.
and personally, i dont care what he does, i dont care if he rips up the formation, the fans are getting restless and they want results. i was willing to give winter the benefit of the doubt in re-inventing "our culture", but i've heard no talk of that this time around.

[Redcoe15]

Good luck to you, Paul Mariner. With those dickholes at ML$E above you, yer gonna need it!

[Oldtimer]

I think this thread is in the right spirit, we should do all we can to make him feel welcome... it may be a brief stay or it may be longer, but we should give him the benefit of the doubt at this point.

It's clear that he will be judged, and should be judged from the first game. He's made a big point that he won't try to get MLS plumbers to try to play like Barcelona, rather he will fit the play around who he's got. He's also indicated that no drastic changes are coming, more like refinements, so he's happy with the players that he's got. So he's accepted the challenge of immediate results, and by immediate results he will be judged.

If he can get this underachieving group to play to their potential, then we will all cheer him on. If the team goes 0-9 for the next 9 games, then we'll call for his head. Results for the rest of this season is all that matters, and the clock starts ticking right now.

Welcome Paul Mariner, head coach of TFC.

[Suds]

my two cents on the matter, most of the negativity is surrounding the decisions based on the club, not mariner being hired.
my main point of contention is that we had him, then we hired klinsman, he gave a shortlist of coaches, then BDK and winter got hired, then we fired winter, now we wasted time and money for someone we had all along. that's bad ownership, but i digress.

i wish this came sooner, before the first friendly.
and personally, i dont care what he does, i dont care if he rips up the formation, the fans are getting restless and they want results. i was willing to give winter the benefit of the doubt in re-inventing "our culture", but i've heard no talk of that this time around.

Agreed. We should not misplace our anger at TFC's constant shit show on Mariner. (not yet anyway :)) I'll be as cautiously optimistic as I am when any new coach is brought in. Give him a chance to prove himself. With that said, making the team win a few games or play close .500 is not what I would call a resounding success with respect to a caching change. To me that's just more of the same.

Good luck, Paul.


#FireAnselmi

[Brooker]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/32b260929a0df1ce47df21848ba394790da8aea6.gif

[pekduck]

My advice to him would be to rent rather than buy.

I liked what he said about systems being overrated. I have argued that many times.

I think a system is necessary but insufficient on its own. The coach/manager should be flexible enough to alter such system to get the most out of the hand dealt. Then utilize trades to acquire players that suit the system with the ultimate goal of having players that suit the system to get the most effectiveness.

Winter seems to stick with the system and trying to force everyone into it, which may work for younger players, but not for ones already grown. Mariner gives me the fear of always wing it with what he has and not having a system in place. It will get more immediate results and it will be unsustainable in the long run if there is not a fixed strategy in place for player retention and acquisition.

Just a fear, we'll see how he does. The old boys won the turf war, as long as they deliver, I guess it's still okay.

[Phil]

Although I have all kinds of frustration surround Anselmi, I do wish Paul the best of luck in his new role.

I wish Winter the best of luck and want to thank him for at least trying.

[Gazza]

Just when i think i understand the MLS game, i get a kick in the head that makes me realize otherwise.

So i can't prejudge Mariner, as i have no clue what will happen from here on in.

But i hope nothing but the best for him going forward. (still expecting the worst).

Go Canada Go!

[Beach_Red]

I think a system is necessary but insufficient on its own. The coach/manager should be flexible enough to alter such system to get the most out of the hand dealt. Then utilize trades to acquire players that suit the system with the ultimate goal of having players that suit the system to get the most effectiveness.

Winter seems to stick with the system and trying to force everyone into it, which may work for younger players, but not for ones already grown. Mariner gives me the fear of always wing it with what he has and not having a system in place. It will get more immediate results and it will be unsustainable in the long run if there is not a fixed strategy in place for player retention and acquisition.

Just a fear, we'll see how he does. The old boys won the turf war, as long as they deliver, I guess it's still okay.

What does this mean, offer more money than other teams? Salary management in this league with the changing number of DPs, allocation and all the mysteries that surround it make any kind of strategy a guess at best.

MLS is a work in progress and no one really knows where it's going to be in five years. Maybe the salary cap will triple and domestic quotas will get reduced, maybe this is as big as soccer is going to get in the US or maybe it's peaked and revenues and salaries will shrink.

All this talk of long tem planning was just marketing babble to buy a delay in results.

[pekduck]

What does this mean, offer more money than other teams? Salary management in this league with the changing number of DPs, allocation and all the mysteries that surround it make any kind of strategy a guess at best.

MLS is a work in progress and no one really knows where it's going to be in five years. Maybe the salary cap will triple and domestic quotas will get reduced, maybe this is as big as soccer is going to get in the US or maybe it's peaked and revenues and salaries will shrink.

All this talk of long tem planning was just marketing babble to buy a delay in results.

Actually, I was not talking about the cost or the method of acquiring and retaining players in a salary capped league with changing dynamics. I was referring to the strategy of acquiring and retaining the appropriate type of players. They are related but still distinctly different.

If I may draw a parallel, what you proposed is right, and it is 'execution'. The method to execute varies and changes from time to time. I'm referring to the vision per se.

[Auzzy]

I would like to let East Side Stand Up! speak for me, today's strip is too perfect to not quote here.

http://www.eastsidestandup.com/

That's all I have to say in this thread at the moment. Just remember that the house always wins.

[jabbronies]

I've played and watched the game for too long in this country. It's in no one's interests to see TFC fail. I really don't feel good about Mariner for a lot of reasons but Anselmi is not the right rudder for the club and Mariner isn't to blame for that. I actually think the record will improve in the next few months.

Let's hope it's as simple as a change of strategy and minor tweaks as Mariner said. Otherwise we'll be 8 mangers in 8 years.

[PureTFC]

Good luck to Paul at a different organization at the end of the season. :)

[CoachGT]

I wish Paul all the best in the role, although I now have no expectations at all.

I think formations are heavily overrated and think that there is something else at the basis of our problems and hope that Paul has a handle on that. The only common thread I've heard from different places is the issue of having a clearly defined game and positional strategy, and Paul alluded to that as well. I also think the role of coach is overrated at times - a coach can win a couple of games or lose a couple of games through his decisions. I hope Paul can win a couple.

[Beach_Red]

Actually, I was not talking about the cost or the method of acquiring and retaining players in a salary capped league with changing dynamics. I was referring to the strategy of acquiring and retaining the appropriate type of players. They are related but still distinctly different.

If I may draw a parallel, what you proposed is right, and it is 'execution'. The method to execute varies and changes from time to time. I'm referring to the vision per se.

Yes, all I'm saying is that for this league the "vision" needs to be very flexible because as you say the method to execute changes - maybe more than just from time to time.

Probably everyone involved in MLS has an idea of what they want the league to look like in ten or fifteen years - they want it to look like all the top leagues in the world. But there's no clear roadmap to get there.

I thought what TFC did with Klinsmann and trying to import and impose a culture was a mistake - it was the vision equivalent of Fieldturf, something you bought rather than grew yourself (okay that's a terrible metaphor ;), maybe it's more like the what the Firkin pubs are to a real pub). And who knows, maybe this move won't work out any better, but it certainly feels a lot less pretentious and a lot more 'Toronto.'

[Oldtimer]

I thought what TFC did with Klinsmann and trying to import and impose a culture was a mistake - it was the vision equivalent of Fieldturf, something you bought rather than grew yourself (okay that's a terrible metaphor ;), maybe it's more like the what the Firkin pubs are to a real pub). And who knows, maybe this move won't work out any better, but it certainly feels a lot less pretentious and a lot more 'Toronto.'

It wasn't a 100% wrong idea, having a consistent playing form is good in an academy situation. What was wrong was trying to apply it in the first team to MLS plumbers from outside the system. It also could be questioned whether the system chosen was a natural fit, given that 4-3-3 and technical play is fairly uncommon in Canada, although it's getting better known now.

[pekduck]

Yes, all I'm saying is that for this league the "vision" needs to be very flexible because as you say the method to execute changes - maybe more than just from time to time.

Probably everyone involved in MLS has an idea of what they want the league to look like in ten or fifteen years - they want it to look like all the top leagues in the world. But there's no clear roadmap to get there.

I thought what TFC did with Klinsmann and trying to import and impose a culture was a mistake - it was the vision equivalent of Fieldturf, something you bought rather than grew yourself (okay that's a terrible metaphor ;), maybe it's more like the what the Firkin pubs are to a real pub). And who knows, maybe this move won't work out any better, but it certainly feels a lot less pretentious and a lot more 'Toronto.'

MLSE owned sports teams, or may be I should just say TFC, never had a clear vision on how to create a championship team. It's more or less, throw it together and hope it works and makes money. From Anselmi's presser yesterday, it's evident, hands off, hope for the best, if it doesn't work, can the rank and file, repeat and rinse.

Import and impose a culture change is the cure to the fundamental ailment of this franchise. Regardless if Klinsmann and Winter's approach is good or bad, but that's the first time this franchise tried to labour under a coherent target. Change management failed.

The way it is, yes, you are right, is less pretentious. A lot more Toronto, strikes me another cord that the city planning of Toronto also lacks a vision, it's a mess. However, that's another topic for another day. :)

May be I should just give up on a 'perfect soccer organization' in Toronto all together. lol.

[Beach_Red]

It wasn't a 100% wrong idea, having a consistent playing form is good in an academy situation. What was wrong was trying to apply it in the first team to MLS plumbers from outside the system. It also could be questioned whether the system chosen was a natural fit, given that 4-3-3 and technical play is fairly uncommon in Canada, although it's getting better known now.

Yes, I agree with this, it wasn't a 100% wrong idea. It never seemed likely that MLSE really had the stomach for such a big risk, though (I suppose not many companies do, really). there were just too many ifs - if the league moves quickly enough in that direction, if the players could be found and retained (as Pekduck says) and so on. It seemed, as our 1-9 record shows so far, that it was going to be all or nothing - either stick with the plan for many years and hope the league gets better, the refs get better (the travel won't get less but maybe the conditioning will get better) the scouting gets better and so on - or don't win very many games.

There's no reason it can't still be a long-term goal. As you say, start it with the academy and see how it develops.

[rowjimi]

I certainly wish Paul the best. We need this coaching carousel to stop and need to get back to moving the club forward. He is confident in his skills and I hope that shows through the players. My concern (like many others) is the FO. The actions of the club do not reflect cohesiveness but indecision and back stabbing. It is more important now than ever to cheer on the players and help them get through another period of transition. We have heard of coaches losing a locker room how about an the entire organization losing the locker room.

[Beach_Red]

MLSE owned sports teams, or may be I should just say TFC, never had a clear vision on how to create a championship team. It's more or less, throw it together and hope it works and makes money. From Anselmi's presser yesterday, it's evident, hands off, hope for the best, if it doesn't work, can the rank and file, repeat and rinse.

Import and impose a culture change is the cure to the fundamental ailment of this franchise. Regardless if Klinsmann and Winter's approach is good or bad, but that's the first time this franchise tried to labour under a coherent target. Change management failed.

The way it is, yes, you are right, is less pretentious. A lot more Toronto, strikes me another cord that the city planning of Toronto also lacks a vision, it's a mess. However, that's another topic for another day. :)

May be I should just give up on a 'perfect soccer organization' in Toronto all together. lol.

Well yeah, we should all give up on the idea of any organization being 'perfect' ;).

Importing a culture may have worked if they'd imported someone with a big enough resume to also head it up - not at the coach or GM level but at the president level - and he might have had to be 'president for life' and not fire-able. Organizations take on the personalities of their leaders (I fought this idea for many years but now I've seen it too often to ignore) and this organization has slick politicians whose personal survival in the organization is their top priority as leaders. And leader isn't even the right word.

I hope people aren't using the term "MLS plumbers" in a negative way, it's nothing to be ashamed of and recognizing that's what we are and working with it may bring some positive results.

[DangerRed]

I for one welcome our new dentally challenged overlord.

We're starting from the bottom of the pit. There's no way to go but up. And he's already said this season we're playing for "pride" and "putting smiles on fans' faces." The man's a realist, since this season is long gone.

Now, let's hurry up and crash out of the CCL, make it to the fall and start the shit-show all over again, without JDG and a new DP in his place.

Tally ho!

[canadian_bhoy]

Pretty sure that TFC will schedule another press conference to announce Mariner has now been fired for having not won any games as head coach.

Here's an exclusive video of a new documentary called "Toronto FC - the life of coaching"
Link (http://gifs.gifbin.com/3204840swsw.gif)

[Oldtimer]

I hope people aren't using the term "MLS plumbers" in a negative way, it's nothing to be ashamed of and recognizing that's what we are and working with it may bring some positive results.

I don't. This league is built on ordinary hard-working guys who grew up in the NCAA system. They are what they are, not EPL top players, not bottom rung-players in some Eastern European fourth division. They have real talent, and deserve to be respected as the professionals they are. They will never play for a top 10 club in the world but will have decent professions in a sport that they love. They form the foundation of any successful MLS team, not the DPs. The star DPs are just a touch of caviar with your mac and cheese, so to speak.

[PureTFC]

Pretty sure that TFC will schedule another press conference to announce Mariner has now been fired for having not won any games as head coach.

:rofl:

Paul is in deep and at the worst point in hoping he has any rope from the folks watching TFC. I don't wish ill will to coaches and players personally but he's sitting to left of Anselmi's throne and the cross hairs are directly on him. The teflon don will never take the bullet.

[Canary10]

Let's not feel too sorry for Mariner. He got this job out of duplicity.

[Beach_Red]

Let's not feel too sorry for Mariner. He got this job out of duplicity.

Does this seem like the kind of organization where some other strategy will get you promoted? Let's face it, MLSE is pretty much run like the CBC...

[denime]

Just when i think i understand the MLS game, i get a kick in the head that makes me realize otherwise.

So i can't prejudge Mariner, as i have no clue what will happen from here on in.

But i hope nothing but the best for him going forward. (still expecting the worst).

Go Canada Go!


WHAT HE SAID!

All we can do now is wait and hope for the best AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN ...

[A Stick]

What scares me about Mariner are his choices to plug up our leaky defence. Andy Iro and the two South American stiffs! MSLE have picked 6 wrong managers before why stop now.

[T-boy]

I never liked what Aron Winter had to say when he first took over at TFC. He was all about "my way of the highway". His insistence in playing 4-3-3 and ONLY 4-3-3 - (he said so in his first interview if you look back at it). He only wanted to play one way and he was never going to change or adapt, even if they players he had weren't up to it.

But, I'm VERY happy with what Mariner has said so far. He's said that the system and formation will be dictated by the players he has - which is great! That is what I like to hear - a coach who is willing to adapt and use the resources he has already. He also doesn't want to majorly change things, he said there will be minor tweeks and adjustments.

So far so good for Mariner, if you ask me!

[v00d00daddy]

I hope Mariner succeeds only because that would mean TFC is succeeding.

But to those of you saying that we can't judge his coaching credentials based on Plymouth...I call bullshit. Without that we're left with a coach with the experience of assistant coach at Harvard and Assistant at NER under Nicol. Didn't people around here bitch about Winters lack of coaching experience? Now we're supposed to be okay with a guy with just as little?

So...we're satisfied with his "knowledge of MLS" even though in his time here at TFC he hasn't been able to secure us any player of real consequence from within the MLS. Closest thing is Eric Avila.

So you'll forgive me if I'm not looking forward to the new incarnation of TFC.

Also...what are the choices?

1. Maintain the philosophy that was implemented here with Winter and Co and continue to play 4-3-3 (Is mariner the right guy for this? NO!)

2. Change the system to get results now. (He may be the right guy for that but is that what is best, long term, for this club?)

I don't like either....and that's why I'm not optimistic.

I don't care if we get some better results and become a mediocre MLS team. especially if we do it playing ugly football.

Not to mention that TFC may have turned things around recently. It seemed that the work and effort had begun to start paying off and it also seemed like Winter was getting better tactically and less rigid with his thinking.

But whatever.....Mariner never should have been hired in the first place. Who the fuck hires a coach with a specific mentality and then hires a GM with a very different mentality to get him players? How much sense does that make? Ridiculous.

[Canary10]

Not only does he have less coaching experience than Winter, but far less reputation as a player as well. We kind of traded down really.

[v00d00daddy]

Not only does he have less coaching experience than Winter, but far less reputation as a player as well. We kind of traded down really.

Oh absolutely. But I remember being told that pedigree has nothing to do with it. LOL

God forbid you have a guy who's seen it all and done it all (in terms of a player) trying to impart his knowledge on players who can barely trap the ball with both feet. LOL

[Derko]

Oh absolutely. But I remember being told that pedigree has nothing to do with it. LOL

God forbid you have a guy who's seen it all and done it all (in terms of a player) trying to impart his knowledge on players who can barely trap the ball with both feet. LOL

Seems like that happens quite a lot in professional sports, you only occasionally get an ex-player whom is really successful as a coach.

[Canary10]

Oh absolutely. But I remember being told that pedigree has nothing to do with it. LOL

God forbid you have a guy who's seen it all and done it all (in terms of a player) trying to impart his knowledge on players who can barely trap the ball with both feet. LOL

I know T-Boy isn't too worried about this, but the fact that he was hired as an ambassador to try to get a new stadium for Plymouth Argyle as part of England's World Cup bid doesn't leave me with much confidence. We basically have a Wal-Mart greeter as our head coach.

[ag futbol]

Not only does he have less coaching experience than Winter, but far less reputation as a player as well. We kind of traded down really.
Mmm... I'd have to call push on that one at best. Prior to TFC had AW ever signed a player to a professional contract or dealt with a salaried professional? He was a youth coach.

I don't see how being one of those (no matter how great) is somehow an upgrade over a long time assistant at the pro level.

We shouldn't even be discussing credentials as part of a playing career, because outside of actually having played the game at the pro level there is really no correlation between the level of success at each position. Personally, I think former strikers usually make lousy coaches, but maybe that's just the lifetime defender on me talking

[Canary10]

Mmm... I'd have to call push on that one at best. Prior to TFC had AW ever signed a player to a professional contract or dealt with a salaried professional? He was a youth coach.

I don't see how being one of those (no matter how great) is somehow an upgrade over a long time assistant at the pro level.

We shouldn't even be discussing credentials as part of a playing career, because outside of actually having played the game at the pro level there is really no correlation between the level of success at each position. Personally, I think former strikers usually make lousy coaches, but maybe that's just the lifetime defender on me talking

He coached for a sum total of what, 18 games, at a lower tier English team? I'll take Winter's coaching experience over that any day. At least Winter could trade on his reputation to gloss over lack of experience. Mariner has neither.

[Yohan]

How about we give mariner a few games before crucifying him?

[ag futbol]

He coached for a sum total of what, 18 games, at a lower tier English team? I'll take Winter's coaching experience over that any day. At least Winter could trade on his reputation to gloss over lack of experience. Mariner has neither.
He was also first assistant at a MLS team for years. That's both more relevant and at a higher level than what AW had.

I don't know of any professional teams where the youth coaches are looked at as being closer to the head coaches job than a first assistant.

[Canary10]

How about we give mariner a few games before crucifying him?

I want to get out ahead of it. :)

[Canary10]

He was also first assistant at a MLS team for years. That's both more relevant and at a higher level than what AW had.

I don't know of any professional teams where the youth coaches are looked at as being closer to the head coaches job than a first assistant.

Do we have to go through this thing again of what Winter actually coached? He coached the Ajax reserve team. Same level that Pep Guardiola was coaching when he was signed to Barcelona's first team. Way higher level than Mariner's being Steve Nicol's waterboy.

[ag futbol]

Do we have to go through this thing again of what Winter actually coached? He coached the Ajax reserve team. Same level that Pep Guardiola was coaching when he was signed to Barcelona's first team. Way higher level than Mariner's being Steve Nicol's waterboy.
Let's talk about relevant experience here for a second. We asked Aron Winter to be a coach in MLS, not Holland. As such, the requirements are different and to be frank, somewhat fucked.

The type of job he did over there resulted in a lot of skills that simply didn't prepare him I coach here. I would generously describe him as a tactical novice as it looked week after week. Was the focus on development so strong at Jong Ajax that he never thought about making small changes for the sake of winning games? Did it encourage using as many different defensive pairings as you can think of? Because that's what we saw here.

Beyond that, it's clear that he has no useable scouting network applicable to MLS while Mariner does. You seem to be picking away at Mariners findings in a few threads, well comparatively what Winter brought us hasn't been any better or simply doesn't exist. He simply has nothing to offer here.

So while I'm not thrilled Mariner takes the lead (because he isn't blameless) I think it was very clear that Aron Winter isn't cut out to be a coach in this league.

[Canary10]

Let's talk about relevant experience here for a second. We asked Aron Winter to be a coach in MLS, not Holland. As such, the requirements are different and to be frank, somewhat fucked.

The type of job he did over there resulted in a lot of skills that simply didn't prepare him I coach here. I would generously describe him as a tactical novice as it looked week after week. Was the focus on development so strong at Jong Ajax that he never thought about making small changes for the sake of winning games? Did it encourage using as many different defensive pairings as you can think of? Because that's what we saw here.

Beyond that, it's clear that he has no useable scouting network applicable to MLS while Mariner does. You seem to be picking away at Mariners findings in a few threads, well comparatively what Winter brought us hasn't been any better or simply doesn't exist. He simply has nothing to offer here.

So while I'm not thrilled Mariner takes the lead (because he isn't blameless) I think it was very clear that Aron Winter isn't cut out to be a coach in this league.

I agree. He needed to go.

I don't feel good about Mariner, and I particularly don't feel good about the club's management picking a side in an internal fight. That almost always goes badly. You never reward someone who is trying to get someone fired by giving them their job. There are some great managers out there we could have been approaching. I honestly feel sick about the whole thing. As I said above though, I'll get behind him because the team needs to win.

[Auzzy]

^^ Not going to compare Mariner to Winter, other than they never should have been hired together, as is now abundantly clear based on Mariner's & other comments from yesterday. And I had given up on Winter as well.

But Mariner's supposed scouting network or experience applicable to MLS? I was hopeful for that, but it's gotten us pretty well jack shit. Avila at $158k doesn't quite cut it for me.


EDIT: Oops I didn't notice this was the "Welcome Paul Mariner" thread. Anyway, good luck Paul, I do hope you prove us wrong! (And in the meantime, you and everyone else at TFC should watch your backs. Not due to me or other fans, but due to the lot of you.)

[Beach_Red]

I agree. He needed to go.

I don't feel good about Mariner, and I particularly don't feel good about the club's management picking a side in an internal fight. That almost always goes badly. You never reward someone who is trying to get someone fired by giving them their job. There are some great managers out there we could have been approaching. I honestly feel sick about the whole thing. As I said above though, I'll get behind him because the team needs to win.

But it's always been their management style to have those kind of working conditions - it insulates the people above. It's certainly not unique to MLSE (but you usually see it in government offices and crown corporations) and they are very good at it.

The only advantage Mariner has (and it may be a big one) is that he's the first guy to take over the team who wasn't walking into the job blind.

[Auzzy]

^ Well, Cummins & Daso didn't walk in blind either.

[Beach_Red]

^ Well, Cummins & Daso didn't walk in blind either.

True, sort of. They both came from 'below' so to speak while Mariner (presumably) has spent some time in exec meetings (and that's likely where the real issues are).

[Oldtimer]

Do we have to go through this thing again of what Winter actually coached? He coached the Ajax reserve team. Same level that Pep Guardiola was coaching when he was signed to Barcelona's first team. Way higher level than Mariner's being Steve Nicol's waterboy.

Not thrilled by a Mariner minus Nicol in charge, but Mariner was considered a very important part of the Revs coaching team. Nicol didn't do nearly as well once Mariner left for his opportunity in England.

[Just One Man]

He can't do any worse.

To be totally honest, I never liked Winter. Right from the jump I felt he was blowing smoke up everyone's ass with his "Ajax model", "total football" nonsense. This is MLS. You manage based on the league you are in; not the league you want to be in.

People are complaining now, but my bet is Mariner gets better results (granted Winter set an inconceivably low bar), and in a couple months everyone concedes that Winter was under prepared, and unrealistic about what it takes to succeed in MLS.

[ManUtd4ever]

To those who question Mariner's credentials compared to Winter, give me a break.

It remains to be seen whether or not Mariner will be able to get more out of this squad than Winter, but his aforementioned qualifications, experience, and preparedness to coach (in MLS in particular) are for more extensive than Winter.

[Canary10]

To those who question Mariner's credentials compared to Winter, give me a break.

It remains to be seen whether or not Mariner will be able to get more out of this squad than Winter, but his aforementioned qualifications, experience, and preparedness to coach (in MLS in particular) are for more extensive than Winter.

They really aren't, he has little in the way of credentials. He coached nothing of significance. The fact that he was an "ambassador" at Plymouth Argyle then picked up the coaching job in the absence of any other option then led them to relegation should be a warning to everyone.

I understand that there is a contingent who wanted Winter out right away. That shouldn't blind anyone to the fact that we're still with a coach with little experience, and what little he has was a disaster.

[ManUtd4ever]

They really aren't, he has little in the way of credentials. He coached nothing of significance. The fact that he was an "ambassador" at Plymouth Argyle then picked up the coaching job in the absence of any other option then led them to relegation should be a warning to everyone.

I understand that there is a contingent who wanted Winter out right away. That shouldn't blind anyone to the fact that we're still with a coach with little experience, and what little he has was a disaster.

I think that several years of experience in MLS as an assistant manager with a perennial contender in New England would render Paul Mariner to be one of the most qualified managers we've ever had, although I realize that's not much praise considering our history.

My point is that Mariner is not a green rookie manager who's unfamiliar with the teams, players, and nuances of MLS. He has the knowledge and the background in the league to potentially excel in his new role.

[Suds]

He can't do any worse.

To be totally honest, I never liked Winter. Right from the jump I felt he was blowing smoke up everyone's ass with his "Ajax model", "total football" nonsense. This is MLS. You manage based on the league you are in; not the league you want to be in.

People are complaining now, but my bet is Mariner gets better results (granted Winter set an inconceivably low bar), and in a couple months everyone concedes that Winter was under prepared, and unrealistic about what it takes to succeed in MLS.

To be fair to Winter, he never used the term total football or said he was brining total football to TFC. That was the media who kept pumping the term.

Now, as for the decisin to fire Winter, his record speaks for itself. At the end of the day it's the final measure of success in pro sports. It can't be argued he was successful.

I hope Mariner can do better. But as I posted earlier, a few wins or playing at .500 is not what I would point to as success.

[SKB]

Mariner must be given a chance to show what he can do. I know the record does not show but there are a lot of pieces put in place in the last year that have improved the club. We still need 3 players. One steady experienced Centre back with more speed then Caan. A true attacking midfielder (DP) to replace JDG. One more ligitimate striker. If we can pick up at lest one of those 3 pieces in the summer transfer window that would help. Let's see what Paul can do, he will be the first coach we have hired that has experience in MLS.

[Auzzy]

Mariner must be given a chance to show what he can do. I know the record does not show but there are a lot of pieces put in place in the last year that have improved the club. We still need 3 players. One steady experienced Centre back with more speed then Caan. A true attacking midfielder (DP) to replace JDG. One more ligitimate striker. If we can pick up at lest one of those 3 pieces in the summer transfer window that would help. Let's see what Paul can do, he will be the first coach we have hired that has experience in MLS.

Preki & Mo Johnston both had experience in MLS.

[TOfan]

Agee

[BHTC Mike]

How about we give mariner a few games before crucifying him?
A whole lot of people who know shit fuck all about MLS and don't rate the league have decided he's terrible already. You must be dying inside.

[BHTC Mike]

Preki & Mo Johnston both had experience in MLS.
Mo Johnston was a joke in MLS before we hired him. Fans around the league literally laughed at us for trusting him to build a soccer organization. Then they looked on incredulously as we allowed him to promote himself and stay in the job so long.

That can't be compared to the reputation Paul Mariner had.

[Canary10]

I think that several years of experience in MLS as an assistant manager with a perennial contender in New England would render Paul Mariner to be one of the most qualified managers we've ever had, although I realize that's not much praise considering our history.

My point is that Mariner is not a green rookie manager who's unfamiliar with the teams, players, and nuances of MLS. He has the knowledge and the background in the league to potentially excel in his new role.

So the fact that he was the ASSISTANT, not head coach mind you, of a team that had progressively fewer points each of the last five years of its existance (every year since MLS expansion 2.0) is the evidence you're presenting that he's a good coach? Based on that, the fact that he wasn't even really the coach of New England at all and was a glorified water boy is his only saving grace. But then you'd have to concede that he has less experience than Winter had.

[Auzzy]

Oh those infamous "people" again; wildly claiming "people" don't know anything about MLS; and then mis-quoting to distort the discussion. Awesome. Very few have said Mariner is "terrible." We're discussing various aspects of Mariner's record up to now, but the vast majority (especially in this thread) are wishing him best of luck, maybe he can do better with TFC, and many of us are taking a "wait & see" approach which is prudent based on our experiences especially with TFC.

[Auzzy]

Mo Johnston was a joke in MLS before we hired him. Fans around the league literally laughed at us for trusting him to build a soccer organization. Then they looked on incredulously as we allowed him to promote himself and stay in the job so long.

That can't be compared to the reputation Paul Mariner had.

I did not compare Mo Johnston to Paul Mariner or his reputation. I was responding to the factually incorrect statement "Let's see what Paul can do, he will be the first coach we have hired that has experience in MLS."

[Auzzy]

How about we give mariner a few games before crucifying him?

Who is crucifying? Why over-hype & over-simplify the conversation like that?

[ManUtd4ever]

So the fact that he was the ASSISTANT, not head coach mind you, of a team that had progressively fewer points each of the last five years of its existance (every year since MLS expansion 2.0) is the evidence you're presenting that he's a good coach? Based on that, the fact that he wasn't even really the coach of New England at all and was a glorified water boy is his only saving grace. But then you'd have to concede that he has less experience than Winter had.

I haven't stated or concluded that Mariner is a good manager, as he hasn't even stepped on to the sidelines for TFC yet. I simply stated that he has MLS credentials and the appropriate pedigree to have a chance to succeed at the helm with TFC.

However, if I was to make a prediction, I will go out on a limb and suggest that Mariner will lead the current roster to a much more respectable record in league play than his predecessor.

We can revisit this conversation later in the season.

[Auzzy]

Anyhoo, back on topic:

Dear Paul Mariner, welcome to your new position as Head Coach & Director of Soccer Operations at TFC. Good luck.

[BHTC Mike]

I did not compare Mo Johnston to Paul Mariner or his reputation.
You're right, you didn't. You made a complete facile comparison between Paul Mariner's MLS coaching experience and Mo Johnston's that reflects a profound ignorance of the league and what both of them have accomplished in it.

Why not double down? I'll make the argument for you: Mo Johnston had MORE experience as a head coach in MLS than Paul Mariner. Clearly he was a better candidate for the head coaching job in 2006 than Paul Mariner is now.

Hell, I hear Ruud Gullit has MLS coaching experience. Maybe we should hire him.

[Auzzy]

Buddy seems to have problems comprehending basic English sentences.

Anyhoo, back on topic:

Dear Paul Mariner, welcome to your new position as Head Coach & Director of Soccer Operations at TFC. Good luck.

[BHTC Mike]

Buddy seems to have problems comprehending basic English sentences.
You're right. And now that I've reread your original statement it's clear that I owe you an apology. Mea cupla.

There's more nonsense about Mariner's record in MLS on page 3 of this thread than I could handle. Decontextualized from the specific (incorrect) quote you were responding to your comment about Mo and Preki read like a veiled jab at the relevance of MLS experience.

Again, apologies.

[T-boy]

Not only does he have less coaching experience than Winter, but far less reputation as a player as well. We kind of traded down really.


Mariner may not have as big a name, but Mariner was VERY well respected as a player. He played in a world cup, and was a regular England starter at one point. I told my English father yesterday that Mariner was the new TFC boss, and he instantly said "he was a great player, played for England and scored a few goals". so, he is definitely known, especially in the UK.


Also, you don't need to be a big soccer name to be a good manager. Many bad footballers have gone on to be fantastic managers! Some of the most famous current managers have had a horrid footballing career! We can't judge Mariner on any of his past IMO.

[Auzzy]

You're right. And now that I've reread your original statement it's clear that I owe you an apology. Mea cupla.

There's more nonsense about Mariner's record in MLS on page 3 of this thread than I could handle. Decontextualized from the specific (incorrect) quote you were responding to your comment about Mo and Preki read like a veiled jab at the relevance of MLS experience.

Again, apologies.

Thanks man! Very decent of you!!!


The part RE ignorance about MLS & specifically Mariner's record within MLS is a bit funny. I've been following soccer in the Boston area since the days of the Boston Minutemen and New England Tea Men of the old NASL. I used to live there, attended some of their games, and paid attention from time to time through the move of the Tea Men to FL, the demise of the old NASL, and the later founding of MLS, with the Revs as one of the original 10 clubs. Paul Mariner had a good reputation in New England and in MLS.


But after everything that has happened at TFC over the last 6 years, and more specifically over the last 18 months, I'm underwhelmed at Mariner now getting the top job at TFC on his own. Not compared with Aron Winter, nor compared with Mo the snake, or Preki the grump. But in light of 6 years of failure, we needed a "knock it out of the park" coach that will awe us, shut everyone up, and give the players, fans and everyone some confidence the next time we hit a rough patch.


I believe that Mariner will do better than Winter, especially in MLS. It would be a tad difficult to do worse. Perhaps he will suddenly and magically sign the top CB that he couldn't find in the last 18 months. He will pragmatically utilize players so that we will get better results especially in the short term. In true Toronto fashion, we will likely get our hopes up, go on a bit of a run, and only miss the playoffs by a bit. Which is better than 1-9.


Maybe Mariner will be our lucky # 7. Maybe Bellogers will come in, tell Anselmi to go develop some condos, and get us a real soccer president. (Although with the sale of MLSE dragging on, I'm afraid the whole FO is working frantically behind the scenes to make themselves irreplaceable.) And if 7 isn't our lucky number, maybe # 8 will be. All we are left with is the somewhat irrational hope that the future will be less embarrassing than the past.


Dear Paul Mariner, welcome to your new position as Head Coach & Director of Soccer Operations at TFC. Good luck with that.

[Rene Kingsriver]

Anyone think we'll be as bad as 1-9-0 in the next 10 MLS games? no me neither.

[Suds]

Anyone think we'll be as bad as 1-9-0 in the next 10 MLS games? no me neither.

I sure hope not. The only way it could be worse is 0-10. I also don't think we played like a 1-9 team in the first 10 games. All we need to do is win 2 games and we've doubled our win record from the first 10. Not exactly a resounding achievement.

If every other coach was given time to improve the team it's only fair Mariner gets the same chance. With that said, until we have a winning record over an extended period of time we have not really improved. All we did is go from shit to mediocre. And I'm not accepting mediocre from this club as improvement.

[ag futbol]

I agree. He needed to go.

I don't feel good about Mariner, and I particularly don't feel good about the club's management picking a side in an internal fight. That almost always goes badly. You never reward someone who is trying to get someone fired by giving them their job. There are some great managers out there we could have been approaching. I honestly feel sick about the whole thing. As I said above though, I'll get behind him because the team needs to win.
Ah, we agree on something at least!

I'm not thrilled either and Mariner doesn't inspire me in any way shape or form, but given this organizations track record of making terrible decisions: I'm just glad its not Jim Brennan flanked by earl Cochrane :facepalm:

[jloome]

But in light of 6 years of failure, we needed a "knock it out of the park" coach that will awe us, shut everyone up, and give the players, fans and everyone some confidence the next time we hit a rough patch.


Never happen. Doesn't leave Anselmi an "out" if he fails.

[jloome]

I don't like how he got the job and given the almost-guaranteed-to-fail nature of some of Mariner's signings it all seems very duplicitous. At Argyle, he went in as a consultant and ended up taking over, too.

Might have nothing to do with how he coaches, though. We'll have to wait and see.

[ag futbol]

He can't do any worse.

To be totally honest, I never liked Winter. Right from the jump I felt he was blowing smoke up everyone's ass with his "Ajax model", "total football" nonsense. This is MLS. You manage based on the league you are in; not the league you want to be in.

People are complaining now, but my bet is Mariner gets better results (granted Winter set an inconceivably low bar), and in a couple months everyone concedes that Winter was under prepared, and unrealistic about what it takes to succeed in MLS.
I totally agree ... ok, mostly agree.

Take Arsenal for example. Wenger makes this team that is way more possession based than the typical EPL squad, but at the same time he builds it SO IT WORKS IN THE EPL. You can build a team to play total football in MLS, but you have to make the necessary adjustments given your constraints and the conditions you'll face on a weekly basis.

Our team feels a lot like it was built in a bubble, without regard for how the competition operates.

[T-boy]

Anyone think we'll be as bad as 1-9-0 in the next 10 MLS games? no me neither.

With 6 out of our next 8 games AWAY - I don't think there will be much of a change in results for a little while. Mariner couldn't have much more of a difficult start! Plus one of those two home games is against the Red Bulls! :o

[jloome]

I'm making one definitive statement now, which I rarely do: if he fucks over Nick Soolsma's career because he's Winter's signing and doesn't see the kid's quality, I can't back the fucking guy. Soolsma is a talented young player and he fights every game.

[Yohan]

I'm making one definitive statement now, which I rarely do: if he fucks over Nick Soolsma's career because he's Winter's signing and doesn't see the kid's quality, I can't back the fucking guy. Soolsma is a talented young player and he fights every game.
Soolsma has potential to have just as good mls career as dave van den bergh

[jloome]

Soolsma has potential to have just as good mls career as dave van den bergh

Yeah, I'd agree. Van Den Bergh was a converted left back, so he was better going back, and Soolsma's a converted striker, so he's better going forward. But they're both very well-rounded players; not a huge abundance of pace, but not bad speed, and both deceptively good with the ball for their size.

[denime]

He can't do any worse.

To be totally honest, I never liked Winter. Right from the jump I felt he was blowing smoke up everyone's ass with his "Ajax model", "total football" nonsense. This is MLS. You manage based on the league you are in; not the league you want to be in.

People are complaining now, but my bet is Mariner gets better results (granted Winter set an inconceivably low bar), and in a couple months everyone concedes that Winter was under prepared, and unrealistic about what it takes to succeed in MLS.

Really,so because this is MLS,everybody should play psychical hoof ball?How come two best teams in MLS KC and RSL are playing 4-3-3?

To say 433 doesn't work in MLS is plain ignorance IMHO,there is plenty of evidence that 433 works and works very well when you have everyone on the same page Head Coach, TD and FO like KC and RSL.

Winter was set to fail from the beginning,how can you hire a head coach and technical director who want to implement new style in this case 433, and give him a glorified scout(player development manager)Mariner who is typical 442 coach and useless stooge KOCKhraine who whatever he touches becomes SHIT.

ML$E sold us 'total football' and hired cheap coach, after they already had Mariner under the contract,why?FFS why?Can someone explain this,I really don't get this.What was wrong with roster we had after Preki and hiring Mariner back than?
Is Mariner set up to fail too?
Let's face it we still have BDK and Rongen,two excperinced 433 guys hanging around with academy that will develop 433 players for what,442 1st team or if Mariner shit the fan with his 'no system' to replace him and carry on with "long term vision"?

I wish Mariner good luck for the sake of all of us and TFC,but once again this is just another ML$E/Anslemi PR spin to get good ST renewals for the 2013 with price increase after 2012 price freeze.

[T-boy]

Really,so because this is MLS,everybody should play psychical hoof ball?How come two best teams in MLS KC and RSL are playing 4-3-3?

To say 433 doesn't work in MLS is plain ignorance IMHO,there is plenty of evidence that 433 works and works very well when you have everyone on the same page Head Coach, TD and FO like KC and RSL.

Winter was set to fail from the beginning,how can you hire a head coach and technical director who want to implement new style in this case 433, and give him a glorified scout(player development manager)Mariner who is typical 442 coach and useless stooge KOCKhraine who whatever he touches becomes SHIT.

ML$E sold us 'total football' and hired cheap coach, after they already had Mariner under the contract,why?FFS why?Can someone explain this,I really don't get this.What was wrong with roster we had after Preki and hiring Mariner back than?
Is Mariner set up to fail too?
Let's face it we still have BDK and Rongen,two excperinced 433 guys hanging around with academy that will develop 433 players for what,442 1st team or if Mariner shit the fan with his 'no system' to replace him and carry on with "long term vision"?

I wish Mariner good luck for the sake of all of us and TFC,but once again this is just another ML$E/Anslemi PR spin to get good ST renewals for the 2013 with price increase after 2012 price freeze.

There is no reason why Mariner can't change to 4-4-2 for some immediate results, and still have the academy learn the 4-3-3 system for the long term!

Until TFC have a number of first team players who CAN play the total football 4-3-3 system, there is really no point in playing that system. I believe that is what Mariner was talking about when he said that the system is based on the players you have available.

[Rene Kingsriver]

I get more than a little annoyed with this continual myth that 4-3-3 automatically equals beautiful tiki-taka while 4-4-2 must be hoofball

[Heart of Stone]

Chris Cummins is the best coach we've ever had. Fact.

[Ajax TFC]

He can't do any worse.

To be totally honest, I never liked Winter. Right from the jump I felt he was blowing smoke up everyone's ass with his "Ajax model", "total football" nonsense. This is MLS. You manage based on the league you are in; not the league you want to be in.

Winter never talked about his "Ajax model" or trying to play "total football". That was TFC's PR, the media, etc. Winter himself said that he likes to play "attractive football" and "attacking football". not the same thing. It was TFC who decided that they wanted to play "total football" (because of it's marketability) and that they wanted to model themselves after Ajax. They then brought in Winter to do that. It's not like they just went out and hired someone they thought would be able to get them to the playoffs and then found out that he had some crazy ideas about implementing the system that he grew up with.

Plus it's not even a fact that his system wouldn't work in MLS. Maybe if he actually had the freedom to do what he wanted it would have turned out differently.

[jazzy]

Mariner or Elmer Fudd.....this team cannot get worse......Even a few wins does not remove the tragedy at the top........Maple Leafs here we come....sorry but someone has to say it..................................I'll enjoy the soccer but a fool once ok but a fool twice ,.....there are some FO office issues I will never forgive

[Ajax TFC]

Anyone think we'll be as bad as 1-9-0 in the next 10 MLS games? no me neither.
Your point being...? I don't think Winter would be as 1-9-0 in the next 10 MLS games either. If he does a little bit better it shouldn't be considered a good move. The quality of a signing shouldn't be based on how bad the previous one was, it should be judged on its own. If Mariner does bad, it should be considered a bad move, simple as that.
And if it really was the coach that was the problem, Mariner should be able to get results pretty soon

[denime]

I get more than a little annoyed with this continual myth that 4-3-3 automatically equals beautiful tiki-taka while 4-4-2 must be hoofball

Agree,the way I see it is no matter what system you play you need skillful players,something I think we don't have,or we have some but not enough.
Good teams can make 442 look like tika taka while less skilful team will make same 442 look like a hoof-ball,perfect example was today's game at Euro12 Croatia made their 442 look like tika taka,while Ireland 442 was Hoof-ball one on one,kick, run, jump.

It's not the system it's the skill of the players we have on our roster,since this roster is 80-90% Mariner's signings I can only hope he will be able to get out the best out of them,whatever system that might be,I'm just scared we might see more hoof than pass from now on.Time will tell.

[Ajax TFC]

I get more than a little annoyed with this continual myth that 4-3-3 automatically equals beautiful tiki-taka while 4-4-2 must be hoofball
I think a lot of people have trouble seeing the difference between "system" and "formation" which are two completely different things. That's why it was pretty shocking to my when Mariner had his little rage moment about how he hates talking about systems. The system can remain the same while changing the formation. The system that Winter was trying to implement was a "pass and move" system. Anselmi claimed that Mariner would continue with the long term implementation of that style, but if Mariner goes away from that style, then he'll have essentially failed, or rather Anselmi will have essentially failed.
I don't care if Mariner goes with a 4-4-2, 3-5-2, 4-1-2-1-2, 4-4-1-1, 4-3-3 or whatever. What matters is how the team plays that formation under him. If he thinks that the system is dictated by the players as well then he's not even coaching them. The fact of the matter is that good coaches have their own preferred systems. I don't think there's a coach around who can look at one group of players and say "with this group I think we can play a possession oriented style" or another and say "with this group we're going to play kick 'n' chase" but be able to coach either team effectively to play their style well.

So basically what I'm saying is that when Mariner says that he hates the idea of systems and he thinks the players dictate the systems, I fear that he won't really coach and the players will end up running around like a bunch of headless chickens.

[T-boy]

Spain's 4-3-3 tikka-takka wasn't too impressive today! It was downright frustrating to watch in fact! I kept shouting "SHOOT" at the TV while the Spanish insisted on trying to run the ball into the net rather than take a shot or put a direct pass into the penalty area! Tikka-takka isn't all its cracked up to be most of the time!

Also, since Winter was in charge, I'd say TFC's best two goals were BOTH long ball dorect football (Frei to Martina, and Santos' knockdown to Gordon to half volley home). I'd also add to that Luis Silva's goal at the Rogers Centre - another example of great long ball football. Who says long ball can't be good to watch? Those goals were definitely VERY exciting to see!

[T-boy]

I think a lot of people have trouble seeing the difference between "system" and "formation" which are two completely different things. That's why it was pretty shocking to my when Mariner had his little rage moment about how he hates talking about systems. The system can remain the same while changing the formation. The system that Winter was trying to implement was a "pass and move" system. Anselmi claimed that Mariner would continue with the long term implementation of that style, but if Mariner goes away from that style, then he'll have essentially failed, or rather Anselmi will have essentially failed.
I don't care if Mariner goes with a 4-4-2, 3-5-2, 4-1-2-1-2, 4-4-1-1, 4-3-3 or whatever. What matters is how the team plays that formation under him. If he thinks that the system is dictated by the players as well then he's not even coaching them. The fact of the matter is that good coaches have their own preferred systems. I don't think there's a coach around who can look at one group of players and say "with this group I think we can play a possession oriented style" or another and say "with this group we're going to play kick 'n' chase" but be able to coach either team effectively to play their style well.

So basically what I'm saying is that when Mariner says that he hates the idea of systems and he thinks the players dictate the systems, I fear that he won't really coach and the players will end up running around like a bunch of headless chickens.

I think Mariner was alluding to the fact that whatever system of formation he uses should be dictated by the players he has available - NOT that he "doesn't have a prefered system". And I agree with Mariner. If TFC only has one fit striker, then they shouldn't be playing 4-4-2! Equally if all the wingers are injured, you don't play with wingers! I think what Mariner is saying makes perfectly good sense. I'm certain he DOES have a prefered formation and way of playing - but he's not going to go "all Winter" and declare it right off the bat!

We ALL complained that Winter wouldn't change his system - so lets not now complain that Mariner is saying that we shouldn't have one fixed system. Isn't this what we all were asking for in the first place?

[TOBOR !]

Paul Submariner, more like.

[Ajax TFC]

We ALL complained that Winter wouldn't change his system - so lets not now complain that Mariner is saying that we shouldn't have one fixed system. Isn't this what we all were asking for in the first place?
Not at all true. There were many people who wanted Winter to keep playing that system and reading these threads it's pretty clear to me that there are many people who still wish we had stuck with Winter and his system. Just because YOU thought that his system was a problem, doesn't mean we ALL thought it was the problem.
IMO Winter's system wasn't a problem, his player selection was. You can't try to play a proper buildup game with passing and moving and then play Dunfield in every game. Also the players up front were missing an unusually high number of sitters. Systems don't make you do that.

[Ajax TFC]

Spain's 4-3-3 tikka-takka wasn't too impressive today! It was downright frustrating to watch in fact! I kept shouting "SHOOT" at the TV while the Spanish insisted on trying to run the ball into the net rather than take a shot or put a direct pass into the penalty area! Tikka-takka isn't all its cracked up to be most of the time!

Spain's always been boring as fuck to watch. The WC semifinal against Germany is possibly the worst game I've ever seen. Their problem is that they play midfielders on the wings, don't have a real striker (although when they did they still sucked to watch) and play with midfielders that don't shoot from range. The result is crazy passing patterns but no one with the balls to try to score

[denime]

Spain's 4-3-3 tikka-takka wasn't too impressive today! It was downright frustrating to watch in fact! I kept shouting "SHOOT" at the TV while the Spanish insisted on trying to run the ball into the net rather than take a shot or put a direct pass into the penalty area! Tikka-takka isn't all its cracked up to be most of the time!

Also, since Winter was in charge, I'd say TFC's best two goals were BOTH long ball dorect football (Frei to Martina, and Santos' knockdown to Gordon to half volley home). I'd also add to that Luis Silva's goal at the Rogers Centre - another example of great long ball football. Who says long ball can't be good to watch? Those goals were definitely VERY exciting to see!

Ireland's long ball game yesterday was real fun to watch,even my Irish coworker was frustrated with that performance and style of play.
You are generalizing that every team that plays 433 is tika-taka,same as many people say 442 is kick and run

433 tika-taka is Spain/Barca style,Dutch NT plays 433 too,but looks as totally different formation and style,like I mention it in my previous post,Croatia made their 442 look like tika taka,while Ireland 442 was Hoof-ball.

Ajax-TFC nailed it in his post above,there is a difference between "system" and "formation" and many people have trouble seeing it.

[Canary10]

Formations and systems aren't the same thing, but they aren't entirely different things either. Formations are developed and oriented to playing certain systems, so they're the flip side of the same coin. 4-4-2 is an inherently more defensive formation, but doesn't mean you can't get offense out of it. RSL plays 4-4-2 btw, someone posted above they play 4-3-3.

I can see us going to 4-2-3-1 (which is what we really play anyway if you look at it closely on the field - at least when we're not playing 5 at the back). Can't see us going to 4-4-2 - we simply don't have two strikers, and Soolsma is probably the only true wide midfielder we have. We'll see what Chuggers can come up with.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Paul Submariner, more like.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/eb/Sub-Mariner1968n1.jpg/220px-Sub-Mariner1968n1.jpg



Awesome. Nicknames already!

[TOBOR !]

^ I was more thinking along the lines of being taken out from underneath.

[Pookie]

I wish him luck.

I'm confused by all the references to Mariner's coaching experience in MLS. He has 0 games as head coach and quite a few as Assistant.

In total, he has 28 games of experience as a Head Coach... all with Plymouth. Last I checked, 28 games as a head coach is less than a full MLS season.

As I said, I wish him luck. I will rally behind him but I certainly won't be calling him experienced.

I guess it doesn't matter, being "experienced" isn't really a criteria for a job in that organization. From our first coach (15 games of prior experience) to our first Director of Soccer Operations (same guy as the first coach) to our first Executive VP and COO to our most recent International Scout (de Klerk who has never scouted before) to our most recent North American Scout (Dasovic who had never scouted before) to coaches along the way who cut their teeth with us (Cummins, Dasovic, Winter, Mariner) without a season of head coaching experience to their credit to the youngest roster in MLS. Working for TFC is better than a College Co-op placement.

[T-boy]

Ireland's long ball game yesterday was real fun to watch,even my Irish coworker was frustrated with that performance and style of play.
You are generalizing that every team that plays 433 is tika-taka,same as many people say 442 is kick and run

433 tika-taka is Spain/Barca style,Dutch NT plays 433 too,but looks as totally different formation and style,like I mention it in my previous post,Croatia made their 442 look like tika taka,while Ireland 442 was Hoof-ball.

Ajax-TFC nailed it in his post above,there is a difference between "system" and "formation" and many people have trouble seeing it.

Of course I'm generalizing! Everybody else seems to be doing the same with their arguments!

The generalization on this forum seems to be that 4-3-3 = good football. But that's not necesarily always the case. And as you correctly point out too - 4-3-3 doesn't always mean short ball, and 4-4-2 doesn't always mean long ball.

I completely agree with you - but it seems a lot of people on here don't realise this at all.

[Huyton]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/eb/Sub-Mariner1968n1.jpg/220px-Sub-Mariner1968n1.jpg



Awesome. Nicknames already!

Wouldn't the SubMariner be the fellow who is under Mariner? This would be assistant coach Jimmy Brennan.

[Huyton]

http://www.eastsidestandup.com/toons/05/essu_s5s52.png

This was from East Side Stand Up, May 31, 2011! Nice call, Mr. Marhue!