Report: ADP will join LA Galaxy at the window

[Roogsy]

http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=397366


Come on! How can they do that??? #creativeaccounting

That's ridiculous. At least give the appearance you are trying to abide by the rules man!

[yellowfellow]

Seriously, how?

[pekduck]

non-DP salary and millions of endorsements?

[tfcleeds]

What a joke. One rule for them, one for the rest of MLS it seems.

[Brooker]

bullshit.

[MG42]

That's funny I head on fan590 this morning he was linked to the impact lol

Edit: looks like saputo denied it, carry on

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/sports/sports-soccer/story/2012/06/01/sp-mls-soccer-montreal-impact-president-alessandro-del-piero.html

[Pookie]

It really is funny when folks try to tell you with a straight face that MLS actually has a salary cap.

It seems 99.99% certain that the guaranteed number doesn't count against the cap. Which means they can pay this guy whatever they like as a base and then bonus him to high hell.

And then there is the mysterious allocation money which is made available by the competition committee for exceptional circumstances and thou shalt never know the amount. Fun, eh?

[Richard]

So my question is why the hell are we not on LA salary level? We should be going balls to the wall getting the best damn players avaible.

[Pookie]

So my question is why the hell are we not on LA salary level? We should be going balls to the wall getting the best damn players avaible.

In all seriousness, it is because TFC wasn't born with a championship vision in mind. It was a necessary piece of a business deal that needed to be included to secure a percentage of operating profits of a government financed stadium.

[Richard]

In all seriousness, it is because TFC wasn't born with a championship vision in mind. It was a necessary piece of a business deal that needed to be included to secure a percentage of operating profits of a government financed stadium.

Makes me want to puke. Fucking hate being a T.O sports fan because all this bullshit going on.

[Relja]

this league is bs..... New York and LA get all the superstars they want......

[TFC07]

In all seriousness, it is because TFC wasn't born with a championship vision in mind. It was a necessary piece of a business deal that needed to be included to secure a percentage of operating profits of a government financed stadium.

Wow, just wow. :facepalm:

How can you say something like that with a straight face? TFC is one of few teams are paying 3 players more than a million dollars while they have invested in club's infrastructure that cost millions. Problem is that we haven't seen results on field outside of ACC/CCL yet.

Maybe it just some "superstar" players only want to play in certain cities (NY & L.A.). We can't control that. I assume ADP is one of those players only wants to play in L.A. or New York.

[ensco]

Wow, just wow. :facepalm:

How can you say something like that with a straight face? TFC is one of few teams are paying 3 players more than a million dollars while they have invested in club's infrastructure that cost millions. Problem is that we haven't seen results on field outside of ACC/CCL yet.



I looooooove the indignant tone of voice.

Pookie, how DARE you?

Try this TFC07: the first DP was clearly a marketing/brand building decision, and the other two were brought in to defend the super-premium pricing structure and high-but-declining SSH numbers for a floundering, last place team, and not to win championships.

And no, I don't have a piece of paper to prove it - but it's freaking obvious.

[Auzzy]

This is the special "LA doesn't look like they're going to make the playoffs" allocation rule.

[brad]

this league is bs..... New York and LA get all the superstars they want......

Honestly - if MLSE were trying to live up players like that for us, I bet the league would do the same. I have a feeling it's more about bending over backwards for marquee names than it is bending over backwards for LA and NY.

It's just that those teams are the ones attracting and pursuing those players.

[TFC07]

I looooooove the indignant tone of voice.

Pookie, how DARE you?

Try this TFC07: the first DP was clearly a marketing/brand building decision, and the other two were brought in to defend the super-premium pricing structure and high-but-declining SSH numbers for a floundering, last place team, and not to win championships.

And no, I don't have a piece of paper to prove it - but it's freaking obvious.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-T-pxr2U02gk/T2Mrc-DGyKI/AAAAAAAAAVA/vAR9SDlfNc8/s1600/tin-foil-hat.jpg

[ryan]

IMO, not critizing, if I was a president of a group like RPB, I'd be on the horn with every SG around the league outside of LA to protest this shit.

This is bullshit and no less corrupt than anything going on in the rest of the footballing world.

[jabbronies]

Honestly - if MLSE were trying to live up players like that for us, I bet the league would do the same. I have a feeling it's more about bending over backwards for marquee names than it is bending over backwards for LA and NY.

It's just that those teams are the ones attracting and pursuing those players.

This sounds about right.

Let's be serious now, if you were a superstar in your country, would you come to a place like Toronto to continue that stardom?
I think LA/NY are the places these guys are interested in. Hanging with Jay-Z and Tom Cruise as oppose to Alan Thick and Anne Murray.

[jabbronies]

This sounds about right.

Let's be serious now, if you were a superstar in your country, would you come to a place like Toronto to continue that stardom?
I think LA/NY are the places these guys are interested in. Hanging with Jay-Z and Tom Cruise as oppose to Alan Thick and Anne Murray.


IMO, not critizing, if I was a president of a group like RPB, I'd be on the horn with every SG around the league outside of LA to protest this shit.

This is bullshit and no less corrupt than anything going on in the rest of the footballing world.

hmmm no it's not, it's business. It's the way MLS has always been run. Why are you so surprised?

If a big name player wants to come to this league and requests to play in a certain city, do you think the owners of the league, who are still trying to build the brand and the legitimacy of the play on the pitch, are going to deny that request?

[ryan]

hmmm no it's not, it's business. It's the way MLS has always been run. Why are you so surprised?

If a big name player wants to come to this league and requests to play in a certain city, do you think the owners of the league, who are still trying to build the brand and the legitimacy of the play on the pitch, are going to deny that request?

Here's where it's bullshit.


TFC Fans: "Hey TFC, we're doing shit, at the bottom of the table, make our team better!"
TFC Owners: "Sorry, we're at the cap!"
TFC Fans: "So use that DP rule!"
TFC Owners: "We've maxed that out too."
TFC Fans: "Alright then I guess we make due with what we have until things are freed up. Rules are rules."

At the very same time...

LA Fans: "Hey LAG, we're doing shit, at the bottom of the table, make our team better!"
LA Owners: "Sorry, we're OVER the cap! ...Wait a tick, we're LA! Let us call Garber and have him make something up to fix it"
LA Fans: "How about DP's?"
LA Owners: "Sure we'll get another spot too"
LA Fans: "Great news!"



I'm sorry but this is utter fucking horseshit. How the fuck do we sit here as fans of MLS, and listen to our ownership tell us they can't do a fucking thing with our roster, when LA, in a worse roster position, can just say fuck the rules and Garber is behind it all the way?

MLS can fuck right off.

[brad]

Here's where it's bullshit.


TFC Fans: "Hey TFC, we're doing shit, at the bottom of the table, make our team better!"
TFC Owners: "Sorry, we're at the cap!"
TFC Fans: "So use that DP rule!"
TFC Owners: "We've maxed that out too."
TFC Fans: "Alright then I guess we make due with what we have until things are freed up. Rules are rules."

At the very same time...

LA Fans: "Hey LAG, we're doing shit, at the bottom of the table, make our team better!"
LA Owners: "Sorry, we're OVER the cap! ...Wait a tick, we're LA! Let us call Garber and have him make something up to fix it"
LA Fans: "How about DP's?"
LA Owners: "Sure we'll get another spot too"
LA Fans: "Great news!"



I'm sorry but this is utter fucking horseshit. How the fuck do we sit here as fans of MLS, and listen to our ownership tell us they can't do a fucking thing with our roster, when LA, in a worse roster position, can just say fuck the rules and Garber is behind it all the way?

MLS can fuck right off.

You are assuming that MLSE want to pay a ton of money to a big name or few. They might, but they might not. I doubt that would be an option with the impending sale even if they wanted to.

And I believe our new owners have set a precedent with the Jays - when the $$$ dry up, they stop investing as much into players.

[Gazza]

You are assuming that MLSE want to pay a ton of money to a big name or few. They might, but they might not. I doubt that would be an option with the impending sale even if they wanted to.

And I believe our new owners have set a precedent with the Jays - when the $$$ dry up, they stop investing as much into players.

They would probably sell more ADP TFC jerseys than all the Leaf jerseys combined. Might even see more Del Piero #10's than Gilmour 93's on the streets.

[ryan]

You are assuming that MLSE want to pay a ton of money to a big name or few. They might, but they might not. I doubt that would be an option with the impending sale even if they wanted to.

And I believe our new owners have set a precedent with the Jays - when the $$$ dry up, they stop investing as much into players.

Not necessarily assuming they want to, but recently they (Mariner, perhaps others) have stated there is nothing they can do to add to this team. This is either a truth or it isn't, we as fans need to know what the fuck is going on IMO.


There's a difference for us in knowing if there's nothing this club can do, or there's things they are choosing not to do.

[Pookie]

Wow, just wow. :facepalm:

How can you say something like that with a straight face? TFC is one of few teams are paying 3 players more than a million dollars while they have invested in club's infrastructure that cost millions. Problem is that we haven't seen results on field outside of ACC/CCL yet.

Maybe it just some "superstar" players only want to play in certain cities (NY & L.A.). We can't control that. I assume ADP is one of those players only wants to play in L.A. or New York.

I can say that they were born as a result of a business deal because they were born as a result of a business deal.

Specifically an October 2005 proposal submitted to Toronto City Council entitled "Soccer Stadium at Exhibition Place."

You might find page 6 fairly interesting in which... and I quote...

"Some of the essential points of the business arrangement are as follows:

.....

vi) requirement for MLSE to purchase a major league soccer franchise to be located in Toronto "


Full proposal is here: http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/pec/2009/02-24/8-CSS0013-Document 1 Appendix C - BMO Toronto Report.pdf

You see, the stadium came before the team and the team was necessary to secure a share of the operating profits. Read further on, they only pegged attendance at 14k and were expecting ongoing share of revenues from FIFA U20 event, CSA games, concerts, and potentially the Argos of CFL fame. As part of the deal, a MLS team was necessary.


I looooooove the indignant tone of voice.

Pookie, how DARE you?

Try this TFC07: the first DP was clearly a marketing/brand building decision, and the other two were brought in to defend the super-premium pricing structure and high-but-declining SSH numbers for a floundering, last place team, and not to win championships.

And no, I don't have a piece of paper to prove it - but it's freaking obvious.


That's ok. I had the piece of paper to prove what is freaking obvious. You owe me a beer ;)

[brad]

Not necessarily assuming they want to, but recently they (Mariner, perhaps others) have stated there is nothing they can do to add to this team. This is either a truth or it isn't, we as fans need to know what the fuck is going on IMO.


There's a difference for us in knowing if there's nothing this club can do, or there's things they are choosing not to do.

I agree - I'd love to know. But if the answer is that they don't want to spend - do you think they are really going to come out and tell us that, or hide behind the whole "we are at the cap"?

Plus, I doubt the league would bend the rules like this for any old player. I think it would take someone in the Beckham/Henry/Del Piero bracket to get them to do it. As others have mentioned, those players aren't exactly lining up to come here.

And our FO has a terrible reputation. Players talk - that's not going to help the cause.

[ryan]

I agree - I'd love to know. But if the answer is that they don't want to spend - do you think they are really going to come out and tell us that, or hide behind the whole "we are at the cap"?

Plus, I doubt the league would bend the rules like this for any old player. I think it would take someone in the Beckham/Henry/Del Piero bracket to get them to do it. As others have mentioned, those players aren't exactly lining up to come here.

And our FO has a terrible reputation. Players talk - that's not going to help the cause.

We can challenge them at the Town Hall, we can make banners, we can do what we want...if we know.

I'm not against the addition of talent to MLS, nor am I against any attempt to make this league more renown, but it has to be fucking fair!

[kodiakTFC]

I looooooove the indignant tone of voice.

Pookie, how DARE you?

Try this TFC07: the first DP was clearly a marketing/brand building decision, and the other two were brought in to defend the super-premium pricing structure and high-but-declining SSH numbers for a floundering, last place team, and not to win championships.

And no, I don't have a piece of paper to prove it - but it's freaking obvious.

1. When JDG was signed we were elated. We wanted a Canadian.
2. We have more SSH than we did before we signed JDG.
3. Nearly every team is sports has profit in mind, why else would someone run a franchise? To lose millions of dollars?
4. Its insane to think MLSE doesn't want TFC to win. There is far more money in winning than losing. Losing comes with lost revenue, the opposite of what MLSE wants.
5. We have the 3rd highest payroll in the league.

[ryan]

1. When JDG was signed we were elated. We wanted a Canadian.
2. We have more SSH than we did before we signed JDG.
3. Nearly every team is sports has profit in mind, why else would someone run a franchise? To lose millions of dollars?
4. Its insane to think MLSE doesn't want TFC to win. There is far more money in winning than losing. Losing comes with lost revenue, the opposite of what MLSE wants.
5. We have the 3rd highest payroll in the league.

Unfortunately this is sometimes not true in leagues that invoke revenue sharing.

[Beach_Red]

It really is funny when folks try to tell you with a straight face that MLS actually has a salary cap.



Actually, a few weeks ago someone on here explained that MLS has a "salary budget" - that is the amount the league pays towards the salaries of all the teams. It's s ingle-entity league, afterall. But some teams fought for the right to pay additional salaries themselves and so the DP rule was brought in. And then it was increased to three DPs and now it looks like it could be increased some more.

There will likely be many more adjustments to these rules as the league continues to grow. Let's face it, in any sports league in the world some owners spend more on players than others and some owners are always looking for ways around caps and other restrictions. It's not a bad thing, really, just like it's not a bad thing to keep some retraints. Like any business there's a danger in expanding too quickly or too slowly.

It's just too bad the owners of our team aren't the ones to be always pushing for more.

[kodiakTFC]

Also, I am VERY curious as to how LA can fit him in. I just don't see the league adding another DP spot.

[Beach_Red]

Unfortunately this is sometimes not true in leagues that invoke revenue sharing.

Revenue sharing usually helps keep some teams from going bankrupt but look at what is probably the most revenue-sharing league in the world, the NFL - some teams win a lot more often than others and they're worth more and are more profitable. Sure, Cincinatti still makes money (mostly because TV revenue is shared) but New England makes a lot more money.

[Richard]

Im just tired of the favouritism. Why doesnt the league promote other cites as well? There is more to NA than LA or NY, TFC is probably the third highest in money generated in the league. If they continue with this then they might as well get rid of the cap.

Im curious though with how he was signed, does the team need cap space now or when he joins the team. The contract is submited to the league and im sure they have no space now.

[Yohan]

I think it's highly probable that either Landon Donovan or Robbie Keane will leave in summer transfer window. Donovan more likely

[Bluenose13]

1. When JDG was signed we were elated. We wanted a Canadian.
2. We have more SSH than we did before we signed JDG.
3. Nearly every team is sports has profit in mind, why else would someone run a franchise? To lose millions of dollars?
4. Its insane to think MLSE doesn't want TFC to win. There is far more money in winning than losing. Losing comes with lost revenue, the opposite of what MLSE wants.
5. We have the 3rd highest payroll in the league.Nicely put and so obvious, unless of course your head is stuck up your ass and in your world the sky is always falling.

[TFC07]

I can say that they were born as a result of a business deal because they were born as a result of a business deal.

Specifically an October 2005 proposal submitted to Toronto City Council entitled "Soccer Stadium at Exhibition Place."

You might find page 6 fairly interesting in which... and I quote...

"Some of the essential points of the business arrangement are as follows:

.....

vi) requirement for MLSE to purchase a major league soccer franchise to be located in Toronto "


Full proposal is here: http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/pec/2009/02-24/8-CSS0013-Document 1 Appendix C - BMO Toronto Report.pdf

You see, the stadium came before the team and the team was necessary to secure a share of the operating profits. Read further on, they only pegged attendance at 14k and were expecting ongoing share of revenues from FIFA U20 event, CSA games, concerts, and potentially the Argos of CFL fame. As part of the deal, a MLS team was necessary.


MLSE was interested getting a MLS team as long they had a stadium located in downtown Toronto. They wouldn't force to get a MLS team so government can provide funds to build a soccer stadium in Toronto for FIFA under 20. They didn't buy MLS club to do favours for CSA or government. MLSE use government so they didn't have to build a soccer stadium with all their money. When Argos backed out with their deal with York University (and U of T) & BMO field and decided to stick with Rogers Centre, MLSE stepped in and saved idea of building a soccer stadium at Exhibition.

MLSE wasn't doing any favours for anyone but for themselves.

[TFC07]

1. When JDG was signed we were elated. We wanted a Canadian.
2. We have more SSH than we did before we signed JDG.
3. Nearly every team is sports has profit in mind, why else would someone run a franchise? To lose millions of dollars?
4. Its insane to think MLSE doesn't want TFC to win. There is far more money in winning than losing. Losing comes with lost revenue, the opposite of what MLSE wants.
5. We have the 3rd highest payroll in the league.

Thank you!

Unfortunately this is sometimes not true in leagues that invoke revenue sharing.

True, but winning ACC is a huge deal for TFC because they make more money since they get to play more home games.

[prizby]

True, but winning ACC is a huge deal for TFC because they make more money since they get to play more home games.

Games in which they don't have to share revenue

[mowe]

I find it funny how the article posted is a TSN story talking about an ESPN article which cites a Soccer Plus post but there are no links to take you back to the original source. Here it is by the way, posted May 17 but didn't get much attention then: http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?3235-Invasione!-Del-Piero-is-LA-bound .

Philippe Germaine's been good with his sources before, so I'm sure this is true as well. Be interesting to see what MLS does with his salary though.

[ensco]

Nicely put and so obvious, unless of course your head is stuck up your ass and in your world the sky is always falling.

This is totally insulting and you should be ashamed, you are acting like a total jerk.

There is no one arguing that MLSE doesn't want to win, what I and others say is that onfield considerations are always secondary to short term profit motives. The high payroll/DP spend isn't being done to improve the team in the long run. It's being used as a booster shot to mask a horrible situation.

[Phil]

There is no way a move like that would be made without objection....unreal.

I am curious to see more sources though.

[Pookie]

Actually, a few weeks ago someone on here explained that MLS has a "salary budget" - that is the amount the league pays towards the salaries of all the teams. It's s ingle-entity league, afterall. But some teams fought for the right to pay additional salaries themselves and so the DP rule was brought in. And then it was increased to three DPs and now it looks like it could be increased some more.

There will likely be many more adjustments to these rules as the league continues to grow. Let's face it, in any sports league in the world some owners spend more on players than others and some owners are always looking for ways around caps and other restrictions. It's not a bad thing, really, just like it's not a bad thing to keep some retraints. Like any business there's a danger in expanding too quickly or too slowly.

It's just too bad the owners of our team aren't the ones to be always pushing for more.

Makes you wonder though who is actually lobbying for some owners to spend more than others. As you highlight, the league is the ultimate owner and revenue is shared. If the league (owner) has popular winning franchises in its largest markets, they stand to benefit do they not in terms of TV audience, ticket sales, etc? Just coincidence that the big names like Henry, Keane, Marquez, all landed in the 2 largest markets?

When you factor in that SUM is involved with Barcelona and MLS and Barcelona had a $0 transfer fee for the NYRBs... it was $5M for any team but NY... it sure sounds like a wonderfully convenient coincidence.

[Pookie]

There is no one arguing that MLSE doesn't want to win, what I and others say is that onfield considerations are always secondary to short term profit motives. The high payroll/DP spend isn't being done to improve the team in the long run. It's being used as a booster shot to mask a horrible situation.

Agreed. With quotes widely available that the search for the first DP included the criteria that he be Canadian, it is clear that we were looking for something to give the public relations meter a shot in the arm and not for the best player available anywhere to help us win championships.


MLSE was interested getting a MLS team as long they had a stadium located in downtown Toronto. They wouldn't force to get a MLS team so government can provide funds to build a soccer stadium in Toronto for FIFA under 20. They didn't buy MLS club to do favours for CSA or government. MLSE use government so they didn't have to build a soccer stadium with all their money. When Argos backed out with their deal with York University (and U of T) & BMO field and decided to stick with Rogers Centre, MLSE stepped in and saved idea of building a soccer stadium at Exhibition.

MLSE wasn't doing any favours for anyone but for themselves.

Of course they weren't. That's my point, TFC came into being as a result of a business deal, not from a desire of an owner to bring championship football to Toronto. Government money was being handed out and the requirement... that's the word in the document.... was that they have an MLS team in order to get it.

For any sport franchise, a stadium is usually part of the bid. Generally speaking, you don't build a stadium unless you know it is going to be used.

However, do you think MLSE calls up MLS and starts talks on a soccer team if those involved in the deal said, look, I don't care who plays there. Just assure us that it will be used at least 18 times and draws 14,000. If Field Lacrosse were popular, or Polo, we'd have just as easily have had one of those teams.

It's not like Philadelphia where 3 separate groups, including supporters, tried over an 8 year period to land a team.

[Oldtimer]

I think it's highly probable that either Landon Donovan or Robbie Keane will leave in summer transfer window. Donovan more likely

Donovan's wanted to go for a while, and he's wanted in the EPL after his last stint there. LA didn't want to let their poster-boy for American Soccer go for the longest time, but he can leave soon on a free transfer, so they should be willing to at least get a few bucks for him now (AEG, a company very much like ML$E in character, although much more competent on the sports success end, knows where the bucks are).

There's no conspiracy, it's very obvious what will happen.

(1) Donovan is sold.
(2) LA receives a transfer fee, let's say it's a couple of mill.
(3) LA get's 2/3 of the transfer fee, MLS get's 1/3, per league policy.
(4) Per league rules, LA can use $500k of the transfer fee as allocation money.
(5) ADP gets signed, $175k (half season charge for a DP) gets paid from the allocation $$$ from Donovan, and LA still has $325k that they can use towards signing someone else at a later date.

No need for favouratism, no need for special magic allocation money.

Also, to anyone who thinks that it's somehow ML$E's fault that a player like ADP won't come to Toronto, well it's time to wake up to reality. We all like T-dot, it's our home after all, but the rest of the world sees Toronto as a pretty boring place. Montreal is a whole lot more attractive than Toronto, and even they can't attract ADP, even with Joey's Italian connections and huge personal wealth.

Discussions about the BMO Field stadium deal, and how ML$E somehow hates us are just not relevent. ML$E would love to get someone like ADP, the revenue he would generate just from Toronto's Italian community alone would easily pay his salary... it's much more economically justifiable than someone like Frings.

We would easily get the big-name players... if we weren't such a relatively boring place to go.

[prizby]

Donovan's wanted to go for a while, and he's wanted in the EPL after his last stint there. LA didn't want to let their poster-boy for American Sawker go, though, but he can leave soon on a free transfer, so they might be willing to try to get a few bucks for him, at least (AEG, much like ML$E, knows where the bucks are).

There's no conspiracy, it's very obvious what will happen.

(1) Donovan is sold.
(2) LA receives a transfer fee, let's say it's a couple of mill.
(3) LA get's 2/3 of the transfer fee, MLS get's 1/3.
(4) Per league rules, LA can use $500k of the transfer fee as allocation money.
(5) ADP gets signed, $175k (half season charge for a DP) gets paid from the allocation $$$ from Donovan, and LA still has $325k that they can use towards signing someone else at a later date.

No need for favouratism, no need for special magic allocation money.

Also, to anyone who thinks that it's somehow ML$E's fault that a player like ADP won't come to Toronto, well it's time to wake up to reality. We all like T-dot, it's our home after all, but the rest of the world sees Toronto as a pretty boring place. Montreal is a whole lot more attractive than Toronto, and even they can't attract ADP, even with Joey's Italian connections and huge personal wealth.

(1)

that was not factored in my thinking...that makes a whole lot of sense; Everton here he goes.

[Oldtimer]

that was not factored in my thinking...that makes a whole lot of sense; Everton here he goes.

Donovan's been pressuring the league, too, to make it happen sooner, rather than later. He's been threatening to retire in the last little while, saying that he's "losing the passion" to play. We'll see, I'm sure his passion for the game could be reignited by a move to Everton.

[mowe]

Donovan's wanted to go for a while, and he's wanted in the EPL after his last stint there. LA didn't want to let their poster-boy for American Soccer go for the longest time, but he can leave soon on a free transfer, so they should be willing to at least get a few bucks for him now (AEG, a company very much like ML$E in character, although much more competent on the sports success end, knows where the bucks are).
...
There's no conspiracy, it's very obvious what will happen.

Reasonable thinking? Get outta town.

[reggie]

RONALDINHO PLEASE...i would pay to see him,shit i already do pay,mlse get him.

[prizby]

RONALDINHO PLEASE...i would pay to see him,shit i already do pay,mlse get him.

with what cap room?

[AL-MO]

This is totally insulting and you should be ashamed, you are acting like a total jerk.

There is no one arguing that MLSE doesn't want to win, what I and others say is that onfield considerations are always secondary to short term profit motives. The high payroll/DP spend isn't being done to improve the team in the long run. It's being used as a booster shot to mask a horrible situation.

Yep. By the 3 Stooges.

[reggie]

the same cap room LA has.its jus a dream,i know we wont get him.

[BHTC Mike]

Why doesnt the league promote other cites as well?
Have you seen what's happened in Kansas City? Wizards/SKC has gone from a perpetual "move that team" to one of the jewels of the league in the time since TFC joined. DC United has gone the opposite direction (and sadly might never be viable in DC again). Houston just opened a great new stadium. Seattle, Philly, Portland, Vancouver, and Montreal have been great expansions. They've moved their secondary TV deal from the tiny subscriber base Fox Soccer Channel to the emerging NBC Sports (former VS) network and got a few more games on the main network as a result. They signed a national TV deal in fricken' CANADA (and I get to watch way more games over tv rather than the 'net). They worked with their Mexican counterparts to create the Superliga which - and the people that claim to value the CCL so highly should keep this in mind when they criticize MLS - lead directly to the creation of the CCL by Jack Warner and friends in response to supersede that competition. The LEAGUE, as a centrally organized partnership of owners and investors, is doing a great job promoting itself and the cities that host its teams. It's not 2002 anymore (when AEG owned 7 out of 10 teams IIRC) when the league was simply focused on survival. What teams are successful on and off the field is down to their ownership. That's the difference between a KC and a DC.


There is more to NA than LA or NY, TFC is probably the third highest in money generated in the league.
And we've got the third highest payroll...

You're forgetting Seattle btw. They're the team we need to be comparing ourselves to: huge fanbase, smart use of salary budget and selective DPs, GREAT COACH, and, if I'm not mistaken, the winningest record in the league since they joined. They've gone nearly as deep in CCL play as us (before going out to the same team, away, in the second half) and have won their domestic cup every year we have (with the chance of doing it again). In the league though they're the anti-TFC: we're 15 points out a playoff spot (that we've never made) in the weaker conference; they're 9 points clear of missing the playoffs (which they've never done) in the tougher conference. Seattle WILL make the playoffs again this year. The only question is whether they'll have a bye or fade and have to play in the play-in round. We'd shit our pants to even BE IN THE HUNT to make the 5th spot in the East and get a one-off AWAY GAME to keep our season alive before we even got the chance to host a playoff game!

Broadly speaking, moaning about LA or NY glamour signings is not seeing the forest for the trees. These signings are designed to bring attention to the league (and sell tickets in EVERY market) not to improve the quality of play and do relatively little to improve those teams. There's an entire league of teams that do better than us on smaller budgets already that we're competing against.


There's no conspiracy, it's very obvious what will happen.

(1) Donovan is sold.

[...]

(5) ADP gets signed, $175k (half season charge for a DP) gets paid from the allocation $$$ from Donovan, and LA still has $325k that they can use towards signing someone else at a later date.

No need for favouratism, no need for special magic allocation money.
Well spotted.

And, presuming it is Donovan that goes instead of Keane to finance this, the real key is what LA does with the rest of the allocation money because Del Piero for Donovan sells more tickets in 2012/3 (around the league and in LA) but DOES NOT make LA better. No way in hell. I suspect it makes them worse. But Arena is a canny operator. People will really flip out when LA uses the left over allocation to sign a solid CB, goes on a strong second half (playing conservative defence first football), and manages to haul themselves back into the playoffs. That's what I used to want for TFC: a team where "bad years" are inconsistent struggles to hang around the last few playoff spots. Right now, that'd equal our best year ever and, if they pull off a big enough turnaround to make the playoffs, actually exceed it.

Champions League: we're having a laugh!

[prizby]

(5) ADP gets signed, $175k (half season charge for a DP) gets paid from the allocation $$$ from Donovan, and LA still has $325k that they can use towards signing someone else at a later date.


should point out that allocation can only pay down to $150k for a cap hit.

[Pookie]

@oldtimer

Donovan leaving would be a great way to explain how they could fit 3 DPs into the system without making up a new rule on the fly

However, the use of magic allocation money and the mysterious base salary vs guaranteed salary in the cap hit calculation means that the smoke and mirror nature of the MLS salary cap is alive and well.

MLS' cap is not like the NHL's which forces teams to sit out players if they are over a daily total. It is very flexible.... based on business opportunities.

The other aspect to this is whether this is the player's choice to end up in LA. Great city but like the $0 transfer for Henry and Marquez to New York or $5M to anyone else by MLS/SUM partner, FC Barcelona, the idea that the league isn't propping up certain franchises behind the scenes is very hard to shake.

[jazzy]

I think it's highly probable that either Landon Donovan or Robbie Keane will leave in summer transfer window. Donovan more likely

actually I think both will leave

[ManUtd4ever]

1. When JDG was signed we were elated. We wanted a Canadian.
2. We have more SSH than we did before we signed JDG.
3. Nearly every team is sports has profit in mind, why else would someone run a franchise? To lose millions of dollars?
4. Its insane to think MLSE doesn't want TFC to win. There is far more money in winning than losing. Losing comes with lost revenue, the opposite of what MLSE wants.
5. We have the 3rd highest payroll in the league.

While I agree that MLSE is primarily a profit driven corporation, I also agree with all of your points.

I have always maintained that there isn't necessarily a lack of monetary will to field a winning product on the part of MLSE, there is a lack of knowledge and expertise within the front office to achieve that goal.

[jazzy]

Donovan's wanted to go for a while, and he's wanted in the EPL after his last stint there. LA didn't want to let their poster-boy for American Soccer go for the longest time, but he can leave soon on a free transfer, so they should be willing to at least get a few bucks for him now (AEG, a company very much like ML$E in character, although much more competent on the sports success end, knows where the bucks are).

There's no conspiracy, it's very obvious what will happen.

(1) Donovan is sold.
(2) LA receives a transfer fee, let's say it's a couple of mill.
(3) LA get's 2/3 of the transfer fee, MLS get's 1/3, per league policy.
(4) Per league rules, LA can use $500k of the transfer fee as allocation money.
(5) ADP gets signed, $175k (half season charge for a DP) gets paid from the allocation $$$ from Donovan, and LA still has $325k that they can use towards signing someone else at a later date.

No need for favouratism, no need for special magic allocation money.

Also, to anyone who thinks that it's somehow ML$E's fault that a player like ADP won't come to Toronto, well it's time to wake up to reality. We all like T-dot, it's our home after all, but the rest of the world sees Toronto as a pretty boring place. Montreal is a whole lot more attractive than Toronto, and even they can't attract ADP, even with Joey's Italian connections and huge personal wealth.

Discussions about the BMO Field stadium deal, and how ML$E somehow hates us are just not relevent. ML$E would love to get someone like ADP, the revenue he would generate just from Toronto's Italian community alone would easily pay his salary... it's much more economically justifiable than someone like Frings.

We would easily get the big-name players... if we weren't such a relatively boring place to go.

unfortunately as much as it hurts I have to agree with you here , esp with our political landscape and horrid transportation etc......when a 'star' and his FAMILY can live anywhere in the world ,...why bring them to TO?...when for many years our cities leaders AND their pro-business/profit/cutbacks agenda and general lack of urban environmental standards has got us to this boring place. We will always be 2nd best on the 'glamour scale for any athlete UNLESS we have a dynamic PrO leadership/owner(s)....as per the world series Jays,..etc....so our hope may only be teams modeled after , less capitol intensive teams such as Norwich City or Swansea in the premiership....that will be our only hope.....and not so bad I'd say.

[Pookie]

While I agree that MLSE is primarily a profit driven corporation, I also agree with all of your points.

I have always maintained that there isn't necessarily a lack of monetary will to field a winning product on the part of MLSE, there is a lack of knowledge and expertise within the front office to achieve that goal.

We all know that MLSE benefits by winning. And I agree with the premise that they aren't tight with the wallet. Those expenditures seems to come in the form of band aids which were necessary when they drove ticket prices to record highs as a result of greed. Not in the form of

Riddle me this though. If they were concerned with winning from the outset, why build a skeleton and inexperienced staff? Why put no resources into training facilities?

My answer would be that while winning was important, protecting profits was paramount. They projected 14k in fans and built infrastructure to ensure that at 14k they were profitable first. When they sold out, they rubbed their hands and jacked ticket prices without boosting infrastructure. Profitability was at an all time high and they were named franchise of the year. Not for performance but for business.

When that infrastructure failed, fans began to ask what they were getting for their money. Rather than bring in experienced, they brought in band aids. A DP or two. Some real grass. Even stadium expansion all came before the Academy and Training facilities. They didnt seek out a consultant until 5ish years into it.

So, while we all know that they benefit from winning, winning has always been secondary to profit protection and our infrasctructure, including personnel, has suffered as a result.

[ManUtd4ever]

Donovan's wanted to go for a while, and he's wanted in the EPL after his last stint there. LA didn't want to let their poster-boy for American Soccer go for the longest time, but he can leave soon on a free transfer, so they should be willing to at least get a few bucks for him now (AEG, a company very much like ML$E in character, although much more competent on the sports success end, knows where the bucks are).

There's no conspiracy, it's very obvious what will happen.

(1) Donovan is sold.
(2) LA receives a transfer fee, let's say it's a couple of mill.
(3) LA get's 2/3 of the transfer fee, MLS get's 1/3, per league policy.
(4) Per league rules, LA can use $500k of the transfer fee as allocation money.
(5) ADP gets signed, $175k (half season charge for a DP) gets paid from the allocation $$$ from Donovan, and LA still has $325k that they can use towards signing someone else at a later date.

No need for favouratism, no need for special magic allocation money.

Also, to anyone who thinks that it's somehow ML$E's fault that a player like ADP won't come to Toronto, well it's time to wake up to reality. We all like T-dot, it's our home after all, but the rest of the world sees Toronto as a pretty boring place. Montreal is a whole lot more attractive than Toronto, and even they can't attract ADP, even with Joey's Italian connections and huge personal wealth.

Discussions about the BMO Field stadium deal, and how ML$E somehow hates us are just not relevent. ML$E would love to get someone like ADP, the revenue he would generate just from Toronto's Italian community alone would easily pay his salary... it's much more economically justifiable than someone like Frings.

We would easily get the big-name players... if we weren't such a relatively boring place to go.

I agree with this entire post with the exception that Toronto is (perceived to be) a boring place to live.

Professional athletes of all designations from all four corners of the earth have had nothing but overwhelmingly positive things to say about our city. In fact, I believe there was a fairly recent poll among NBA players (who are known to love to party) that Toronto was one of their favorite cities in the league in which to endulge themselves.

Perhaps Toronto doesn't have the cache of LA or New York, but it should be right up there in the next echelon of preferred cities to live in for any professional athlete.

[prizby]

I agree with this entire post with the exception that Toronto is (perceived to be) a boring place to live.

Professional athletes of all designations from all four corners of the earth have had nothing but overwhelmingly positive things to say about our city. In fact, I believe there was a fairly recent poll among NBA players (who are known to love to party) that Toronto was one of their favorite cities in the league in which to endulge themselves.

Perhaps Toronto doesn't have the cache of LA or New York, but it should be right up there in the next echelon of preferred cities to live in for any professional athlete.

i guess that explains why superstars leave the Raps and none are interested in joining Toronto

[ManUtd4ever]

i guess that explains why superstars leave the Raps and none are interested in joining Toronto

Was that the case when the Raps were a winning club during the Glen Grunwald era?

Vince Carter and Antonio Davis both re-signed with the Raps as pending free agents during that era and Hakeem Olajuwon signed with the Raps as the prized free agent acquisition of the off season during that era as well.

The reason why star NBA athletes don't want to play in Toronto anymore is because MLSE has run the Raptors franchise into the ground. It has absolutely nothing to do with the appeal or quality of life of our beautiful city.

[tfcleeds]

I agree with this entire post with the exception that Toronto is (perceived to be) a boring place to live.

Professional athletes of all designations from all four corners of the earth have had nothing but overwhelmingly positive things to say about our city. In fact, I believe there was a fairly recent poll among NBA players (who are known to love to party) that Toronto was one of their favorite cities in the league in which to endulge themselves.

Perhaps Toronto doesn't have the cache of LA or New York, but it should be right up there in the next echelon of preferred cities to live in for any professional athlete.

This is the key though - they love VISITING Toronto. They don't necessarily want to live here with all that entails (higher taxes, etc.)

[prizby]

Was that the case when the Raps were a winning club during the Glen Grunwald era?

Vince Carter and Antonio Davis both re-signed with the Raps as pending free agents during that era and Hakeem Olajuwon signed with the Raps as the prized free agent acquisition of the off season during that era as well.

The reason why star NBA athletes don't want to play in Toronto anymore is because MLSE has run the Raptors franchise into the ground. It has absolutely nothing to do with the appeal or quality of life of our beautiful city.

The Raptors have never brought a top tier player to Toronto in the prime of their career as a free agent signing...NEVER

Face it, Toronto isn't a desired destination for top level pros.

[jazzy]

I agree with this entire post with the exception that Toronto is (perceived to be) a boring place to live.

Professional athletes of all designations from all four corners of the earth have had nothing but overwhelmingly positive things to say about our city. In fact, I believe there was a fairly recent poll among NBA players (who are known to love to party) that Toronto was one of their favorite cities in the league in which to endulge themselves.

Perhaps Toronto doesn't have the cache of LA or New York, but it should be right up there in the next echelon of preferred cities to live in for any professional athlete.

this sounds great except you're under the perception that athletes are intelligent down to earth individuals....not many are like Dichio,.(just a compliment)...most prefer the glamour, good or bad...and many are spoiled immature jocks.....not exactly your patient home with the kids type...and I say unfortunately.. and that was an old survey based on partying basically in clubs pre and after the game with plenty of woman for the picking, not exactly a city environment.......ever seen a athlete on the TTC? I love Toronto but for lack of vision look at our waterfront.....I think this is for another day though

[ManUtd4ever]

This is the key though - they love VISITING Toronto. They don't necessarily want to live here with all that entails (higher taxes, etc.)

I agree that the higher percentage of income tax can be a potential deterrent for some high quality free agents, but these are multimillionaires after all.

If the Raptors were to ever become a perennial contender, I have no doubt that Toronto would become one of the preferred destinations among high level NBA free agents.

[ManUtd4ever]

The Raptors have never brought a top tier player to Toronto in the prime of their career as a free agent signing...NEVER

Face it, Toronto isn't a desired destination for top level pros.

Vince Carter was in his prime and the most popular athlete on the freaking planet when he chose to re-sign in Toronto as a pending free agent.

We'll agree to disagree.

[prizby]

Vince Carter was in his prime and the most popular athlete on the freaking planet when he chose to re-sign in Toronto as a pending free agent.

We'll agree to disagree.

chose to re-sign...he made more money by re-signing. He'd have lost out on $20 million plus and 1 year guaranteed had he decided to sign elsewhere.

Your arguement is flawed

[BHTC Mike]

However, the use of magic allocation money and the mysterious base salary vs guaranteed salary in the cap hit calculation means that the smoke and mirror nature of the MLS salary cap is alive and well.
Again: there's no mystery here! NEITHER value represents what a player costs out of a team's salary budget. Those are the PA's numbers NOT the league's! All the problems start when people try to start turning those numbers into hard "cap estimates". MLS team finances ARE a black box and the PA's numbers give us a tangential data point rather than a window into them. Plato's "cave" metaphor works even better: the PA's numbers we see are the shadows on the wall in front of us instead of the real ones between us and the fire.

And we've used "magic" allocation money pretty heavily in the past ourselves. People forget how over budget our 2009 team was even BEFORE considering De Guzman's addition. Mo had built that team by piling up allocation from expansion, trades, playoffless seasons, and selling Edu. That was supposed to be our "go for it" year in the budget management cycle and the best he could do was a talented but aging and horribly unbalanced team with no central defense. Sadly, if people understood that story better they might have understood what Preki was doing in 2010 to start a rebuild - and overachieving while he did it - instead of buying the bullshit narrative Anselmi sold (and probably believed) about having a good team that just needed a real coach to take them over the "finishing line" (by which he meant "make the playoffs" :puke:).

Your broader premise is 100% correct: MLS will change its rules as business oppurtunities present themselves. They're a partnership and if one partner can convince the others that it's in all of their interest to amend or bend the rules it'll happen. But this isn't like the days when AEG basically ran the league on their own as a house league and could favour one of their own properties over another. Carlos Ruiz ain't being sent to LA anymore without a willing ownership on the other end of the deal who get something out of it. (Which seems to be Chivas these days actually!).

When that infrastructure failed, fans began to ask what they were getting for their money. Rather than bring in experienced, they brought in band aids. A DP or two. Some real grass. Even stadium expansion all came before the Academy and Training facilities. They didnt seek out a consultant until 5ish years into it.
And even that consultant was a PR decision. Yet people bought the sauerkraut, changed their avatars to German flags, and declared success because a big famous ex-European star they'd heard of who talked a lot about pretty soccer was gonna be parachuted in for a few months. Rather than doing the hard work of finding a qualified management candidate with a deep understanding of North American soccer and a resume of success they went for the standard FC Hollywood North approach that worked in '06 when they announced "the Scottish Wayne Gretzky" as our first employee and helped brand our club's early identity.

God I'm in a bitchy mood today! Sorry. :blush:

[ManUtd4ever]

chose to re-sign...he made more money by re-signing. He'd have lost out on $20 million plus and 1 year guaranteed had he decided to sign elsewhere.

Your arguement is flawed

My argument isn't flawed in the least.

As tfcleeds mentioned, the income tax levels were (and still are) substantially higher in Canada. Futhermore, there was also rampant speculation in the media at the time that Carter was potentially giving up tens of millions of dollars in potential supplemental income via endorsement revenue in the US if he chose to stay in Toronto.

If anything, in the grand scheme of things, Carter re-signed in Toronto with the knowledge that he would potentially earn less total income, as opposed to if he signed with a high profile team in the US.

[Beach_Red]

Makes you wonder though who is actually lobbying for some owners to spend more than others. As you highlight, the league is the ultimate owner and revenue is shared. If the league (owner) has popular winning franchises in its largest markets, they stand to benefit do they not in terms of TV audience, ticket sales, etc? Just coincidence that the big names like Henry, Keane, Marquez, all landed in the 2 largest markets?

When you factor in that SUM is involved with Barcelona and MLS and Barcelona had a $0 transfer fee for the NYRBs... it was $5M for any team but NY... it sure sounds like a wonderfully convenient coincidence.

Or the best way to market a new league in a very crowded sports market.

[jloome]

chose to re-sign...he made more money by re-signing. He'd have lost out on $20 million plus and 1 year guaranteed had he decided to sign elsewhere.

Your arguement is flawed


My argument isn't flawed in the least.


Both your arguments are flawed and pure conjecture. It's all based on supposition of other people's thoughts and perspectives. Neither of you has presented a whit of supporting evidence.

So both arguments are flawed. In fact, the only way you can say any argument isn't flawed is to a) have proof of who's right or b) be advancing a dialectical discussion, trying to reconcile disparate evidence from each side.

[Shakes McQueen]

So both arguments are flawed. In fact, the only way you can say any argument isn't flawed is to a) have proof of who's right or b) be advancing a dialectical discussion, trying to reconcile disparate evidence from each side.

If you're going to tell me that a lot of the opinions that fly around this board are nothing but completely unsubstantiated personal opinions, derived from nothing but what they think is patently "obvious" - well sir, I'm going to have to ask you to step outside for a good old fashioned donnybrook.

- Scott

[ag futbol]

Was that the case when the Raps were a winning club during the Glen Grunwald era?

Vince Carter and Antonio Davis both re-signed with the Raps as pending free agents during that era and Hakeem Olajuwon signed with the Raps as the prized free agent acquisition of the off season during that era as well.

The reason why star NBA athletes don't want to play in Toronto anymore is because MLSE has run the Raptors franchise into the ground. It has absolutely nothing to do with the appeal or quality of life of our beautiful city.
Agreed. I followed the raptors extensively at the time and the man speaks the truth. At the time things were clicking nicely. Hell same goes for the Jays in the early days. I don't understand some sports fans in this city and their short-man complex when it comes to getting free agents.

We're not going to compete with NY or LA on glamor but we have a very competitive city here in other aspects. People are just defeatist when it comes to this stuff. If the financial commitment is there and the franchises are run properly we should be competitive for free agents.

[ag futbol]

And we've used "magic" allocation money pretty heavily in the past ourselves. People forget how over budget our 2009 team was even BEFORE considering De Guzman's addition. Mo had built that team by piling up allocation from expansion, trades, playoffless seasons, and selling Edu. That was supposed to be our "go for it" year in the budget management cycle and the best he could do was a talented but aging and horribly unbalanced team with no central defense. Sadly, if people understood that story better they might have understood what Preki was doing in 2010 to start a rebuild - and overachieving while he did it - instead of buying the bullshit narrative Anselmi sold (and probably believed) about having a good team that just needed a real coach to take them over the "finishing line" (by which he meant "make the playoffs" :puke:).


Great point, and one people often miss.

By all accounts, Johnston should have been beyond dead in the water after year three. It was clear he threw everything he had at making the playoffs and still failed. Pre-JDG TFC had no deisgnated player and had a playroll of more than $1 M more than any other non-DP team! We should have been able to handily make the playoffs that year if we used our resources properly.

[Pookie]

@BHTC.

We have also used magic allocation money and some liberties with the term DP when we had DeRo (as did NY and DC does now). He makes more than the league max while carries a max $335k cap hit and doesn't take a DP slot. He is going to take home $663k this year without the DP tag.

[Pookie]

Or the best way to market a new league in a very crowded sports market.

Sure is. From a business standpoint it makes complete sense.

From a competitive/Declan Hill perspective (author of "The Fix") it certainly leaves one wondering.

[BHTC Mike]

By all accounts, Johnston should have been beyond dead in the water after year three.
He'd have been dead in the water after losing to Montreal (and only winning 1 of 4 against USL opposition) if it were up to me. Real soccer people above him in TFC's organization would have seen the constant turnover and how unprepared we were for the start of the '08 season - seriously, while the fans were busy setting records for travelling support our squad on opening day in Columbus looked worse than we ended '07 with - and had him on thin ice then. Failure in the inaugural Canadian Championship while being realistically out of the playoffs by late summer after two record goal scoring droughts the year before should have been enough.

But excuse after excuse after excuse about Canadian players, plastic pitches, and rookie coaches was accepted while folks had fun heaping scorn on Robert, Cunningham, and Ruiz without seriously questioning the man who brought them here. The feel good "building" and "patience" narratives carried the day. That's why I get so frustrated by arguments for patience now: if you can see that something's not working "patience" isn't level headed; it's an abrogation of your responsibility to make a decision. Where would we be if Mo had been fired mid-'08 and new management had been brought in to prepare us for '09 then? How did patience with Mo serve us in that instance?

The Whitecaps were mocked by many for firing Teitur early last year but they saw the writing on the wall, wrote off the rest of that year, and started early on getting ready for 2012. I thought it was a smart and courageous decision to acknowledge that they'd screwed up by letting him stay on for the transition from the NASL to MLS. Soehn was hilarious to make fun of but clearly nothing more than a place holder. The 'Caps are far from guaranteed to make the playoffs this year but, cup notwithstanding, Rennie clearly has them playing better and has made them harder to beat. Barring a TFC-like summer collapse they'll be at least in the discussion at the end of the year which is the best we've EVER achieved in 6 seasons!

Yet I still see arguments that firing Winter now would doom NEXT year? It's ridiculous. The whole benefit of doing it early and not waiting 'til season ticket renewals or another losing/winless streak or official elimination from the playoffs is that we could get an early start on NOT fucking up 2013. Any new management will have a honeymoon where results aren't expected. I'd rather have that be the second, probably meaningless, half of 2012 than the first half of 2013!

(Not disagreeing with you by the way; I know where you stand.)


It was clear he threw everything he had at making the playoffs and still failed. Pre-JDG TFC had no deisgnated player and had a playroll of more than $1 M more than any other non-DP team! We should have been able to handily make the playoffs that year if we used our resources properly.
This, this, this! A million times this! We weren't spending a ton on 3 DPs and scrimping everywhere else; we were spending ~40% more than our opposition and spreading it around the entire roster.

That was never sustainable no matter how much people liked having an aging core of Robinson, Brennan, Guevara, and Serioux: none of whom went on to play significant minutes in MLS after that season! Dichio (through no fault of his own) didn't even make the end of the season. Add to that De Rosario's HUGE non-DP salary and Chad Barrett's $200K+! Off the top of my head we were paying Pablo Vitti what? ~$300K to be a fringe starter????? And THEN added a DP???????????????

Yet I still see comments blaming Preki for blowing that up? AFTER that team had melted down in our most important league game ever?

You're so right: playoffs had to be LESS than the minimum for that team! Even pushing the season to the last game was already a failure. They needed a "miracle" to win the Voyageurs Cup and then couldn't score in 180 minutes against a different USL team! IMHO, along with a poorly balanced roster, that season points to the fallout from Mo's single biggest mistake: Carver. But that's whole other discussion and this was supposed to be a Del Piero thread!

[ag futbol]

I was skeptical about Mo after about 6 months ... and definitely wanted him fired after year two. I just think letting him continue after year three was insult to injury and probably mainly a bit of CYA by Anselmi after prematurely extending his contract a couple months before the NY meltdown.

[Brooker]

lol donnybrook

[Beach_Red]

I was skeptical about Mo after about 6 months ... and definitely wanted him fired after year two. I just think letting him continue after year three was insult to injury and probably mainly a bit of CYA by Anselmi after prematurely extending his contract a couple months before the NY meltdown.

A bit? It's likely they knew that for what they were offering there weren't many takers. They probably had a very small FO payroll, no scouts and an almost complete reliance on agents to find players (and coaches, Carever was also repped by First Wave). Not a great position for a manager to be in (it would be interesting to hear exactly why Frank Yallop didn't want the job).

[Shakes McQueen]

Agreed. I followed the raptors extensively at the time and the man speaks the truth. At the time things were clicking nicely. Hell same goes for the Jays in the early days. I don't understand some sports fans in this city and their short-man complex when it comes to getting free agents.

We're not going to compete with NY or LA on glamor but we have a very competitive city here in other aspects. People are just defeatist when it comes to this stuff. If the financial commitment is there and the franchises are run properly we should be competitive for free agents.

The big difference between places like LA and New York, versus Toronto (as far as I can see), is that name players only ever seem to be interested in coming here when our team is really good. Look at the players the Knicks recently signed, despite being an abject failure of a team at the time.

I don't think it's an absolute rule, and there are exceptions here and there, but I think it's mostly true. Places like New York and Los Angeles are cultural icons, inside and outside America, that Toronto is not. I don't think it's small-man syndrome to admit that - I still love Toronto, and think it's a great city. I just try to look at it from the perspective of a black basketball player growing up in South Carolina, or an Italian striker who spent their life in Italy.

Maybe it's completely wrong, but then, this entire conversation is just ineffectual pissing in the wind anyway, right?

- Scott

[Stouffville_RPB]

Hahaha. And ppl rip on Italian football for its corruption.

[Roogsy]

Um yeah...I don't think anyone can reasonably compare the two. :noidea:

[Shakes McQueen]

Italian football is corrupt and rotten to the core. MLS is only "rotten" in so far as one team has been able to pull off some questionable roster moves., but because MLS teams' financial books are largely private, we can't really investigate.

I don't think there's a comparison. Italian football is a whole other stratosphere of politics and corruption.

- Scott

[ag futbol]

The big difference between places like LA and New York, versus Toronto (as far as I can see), is that name players only ever seem to be interested in coming here when our team is really good. Look at the players the Knicks recently signed, despite being an abject failure of a team at the time.

I don't think it's an absolute rule, and there are exceptions here and there, but I think it's mostly true. Places like New York and Los Angeles are cultural icons, inside and outside America, that Toronto is not. I don't think it's small-man syndrome to admit that - I still love Toronto, and think it's a great city. I just try to look at it from the perspective of a black basketball player growing up in South Carolina, or an Italian striker who spent their life in Italy.

Maybe it's completely wrong, but then, this entire conversation is just ineffectual pissing in the wind anyway, right?

- Scott
Oh and I get that. When I talk about being ‘competitive’ on signings I’m not referring to TFC competing with LA and NY.

In the Mo Johnston days, I literally had debates with people about being competitive with the dumpster-towns of MLS. How could we possibly hope to compare with the bustling urban metropolis of Columbus Ohio? And my point wasn’t even that Toronto was better, it was simply that we had something to sell and weren’t a town of lepers. If that’s not short-man syndrome on some people’s part I don’t know what is.

We have plenty of evidence to suggest we can go out and get the players we need to win. Are we going to compete with the top cities head-to-head? No, but they can’t sign everyone and our money is just as green as everyone elses. Anyway, this isn't really about TFC and the way its operated as much as the mentality of some Toronto sports fans that perpetuates some sort of form of helplessness.

[NBS]

It's fine. LA will still suck. I honestly think it's better to get less name recognition and more commitment from a DP slot than a big name looking for a retirement cheque and a good time.

The MLS is not an easy league to play in. Not because of the talent, but because of the travel, different climates and physicality. Anybody that is less than 100% committed will not succeed regardless of name. I think there are only a handful of big name players that would truly bring the passion required to succeed.

It is what it is.

[Shakes McQueen]

Oh and I get that. When I talk about being ‘competitive’ on signings I’m not referring to TFC competing with LA and NY.

In the Mo Johnston days, I literally had debates with people about being competitive with the dumpster-towns of MLS. How could we possibly hope to compare with the bustling urban metropolis of Columbus Ohio? And my point wasn’t even that Toronto was better, it was simply that we had something to sell and weren’t a town of lepers. If that’s not short-man syndrome on some people’s part I don’t know what is.

We have plenty of evidence to suggest we can go out and get the players we need to win. Are we going to compete with the top cities head-to-head? No, but they can’t sign everyone and our money is just as green as everyone elses. Anyway, this isn't really about TFC and the way its operated as much as the mentality of some Toronto sports fans that perpetuates some sort of form of helplessness.

I 100% agree with you that Toronto FC, in particular, can go out and get the players it needs to win. Mostly because I don't think you need ADP (or Thierry Henry, or David Beckham, or Rafa Marquez) to win in this league. It has been proven over and over. None of what I said excuses Toronto FC from their abject mediocrity.

In leagues like the NBA and MLB, though, I do think we are at a bit of a tangible disadvantage with name-brand players. Not in 100% of cases, but the vast majority. I don't think the exceptions disprove the general rule.

- Scott

[ManUtd4ever]

If you're going to tell me that a lot of the opinions that fly around this board are nothing but completely unsubstantiated personal opinions, derived from nothing but what they think is patently "obvious" - well sir, I'm going to have to ask you to step outside for a good old fashioned donnybrook.

- Scott

LOL!

[Pookie]

re: High taxes in Canada

Maybe some of the accountants can weigh in here but if a player maintains a principal residence out of Province/Country, do they not pay income tax in that jurisdiction? (makes our tax laws somewhat irrelevant)

[MartinUtd]

Makes sense if Donovan is sold, otherwise I have to throw my hat in with the conspiracy theorists.

[Alonso]

I think it's highly probable that either Landon Donovan or Robbie Keane will leave in summer transfer window. Donovan more likely


I think this is going to be the case. He has made some high profile interviews basically saying he's lost the passion for playing, but if Everton were to call....

[Alonso]

this sounds great except you're under the perception that athletes are intelligent down to earth individuals....not many are like Dichio,.(just a compliment)...most prefer the glamour, good or bad...and many are spoiled immature jocks.....not exactly your patient home with the kids type...and I say unfortunately.. and that was an old survey based on partying basically in clubs pre and after the game with plenty of woman for the picking, not exactly a city environment.......ever seen a athlete on the TTC? I love Toronto but for lack of vision look at our waterfront.....I think this is for another day though


The "Red Rocket" Matt Boner was on the subway to work every game day! But yeah, other then that, never.

[KGH]

re: High taxes in Canada

Maybe some of the accountants can weigh in here but if a player maintains a principal residence out of Province/Country, do they not pay income tax in that jurisdiction? (makes our tax laws somewhat irrelevant)

It does come down to residence. Considering all MLS players are employees by a US entity there can be plenty of ways to avoid the full impact of Canadian tax. Based on my understanding (I am by no means a tax professional) you would simply divide the number of games played in Can vs those in the US. You would then be taxed on the income earned in Can differently from that in the US.

Secondly, if there were any sponsorship deals it is advantageous for an athlete to set up a corporation and earn income through there.

The important number is 183 days. If you live in Canada for more than 183 days a year you are considered a Canadian resident in the CRAs eyes and taxed at the full Canadian rate on all your worldwide income.

I have a buddy who's a player agent for a couple NBA guys and he said that the raptors actually put together a pretty good package with tax lawyers and accountants that helps players minimize the tax impact of playing in Canada. Secondly, players like to play in Toronto cause the girls here are ridiculously slutty after the games. More so then other cities. That's our global rep at least in the bball circles.

[ag futbol]

I 100% agree with you that Toronto FC, in particular, can go out and get the players it needs to win. Mostly because I don't think you need ADP (or Thierry Henry, or David Beckham, or Rafa Marquez) to win in this league. It has been proven over and over. None of what I said excuses Toronto FC from their abject mediocrity.

In leagues like the NBA and MLB, though, I do think we are at a bit of a tangible disadvantage with name-brand players. Not in 100% of cases, but the vast majority. I don't think the exceptions disprove the general rule.

- Scott
Yep agreed, and I can't complain about Frings and Koevermans at the DP spots. As you said, the big names mentioned above are entirely unnecessary.

I wonder if Drogba is thinking of MLS, I think he'd be rather scary playing over here.

[Shakes McQueen]

I think Frings and Koevermans were great signings, though both have been put in a bad position to have success here so far (no matter whose fault you think it is, it's hard to argue with the record).

I think Drogba would be really well suited to MLS, but if I were him, I'd want to go out on top. Have there been any rumblings about him coming here?

- Scott

[Derko]

Honestly - if MLSE were trying to live up players like that for us, I bet the league would do the same. I have a feeling it's more about bending over backwards for marquee names than it is bending over backwards for LA and NY.

It's just that those teams are the ones attracting and pursuing those players.

Let's face it guys, Toronto is not a 'World Class' city on the International Football Stage, we get whom we get, some may argue that TFC front office are not pursuing marquee players, but a fact is a fact, L.A. and New York are more attractive cities for the big name players, and if there are backroom deals, what can we do about it?

[Couchy81]

Let's face it guys, Toronto is not a 'World Class' city on the International Football Stage, we get whom we get, some may argue that TFC front office are not pursuing marquee players, but a fact is a fact, L.A. and New York are more attractive cities for the big name players, and if there are backroom deals, what can we do about it?

And MLS is not a 'World Class' league on the International Football Stage either. Designated Players aren't coming to North America for the quality of life. Most have enough money to live and play anywhere in the world. Money talks. I would argue that Frings is not a "get who we get" signing.

[ensco]

I think the problem has more to do with the net worth, lifestyle and security considerations of modern players of this caliber.

In the 80s the Blizzard signed someone just like ADP - a lifelong stud scorer for Juve - Roberto Bettega. Bobbygol. He came over for a year or two, made some money, had a few laughs. I vividly remember him being part of the Johnny Lombardi CHIN radio Christmas telecasts, and stuff like that. It probably mattered to him that Toronto was a really nice city for Italians, he could speak Italian and get a good pasta.

Compare that to Del Piero, who probably has a personal net worth of $50 million or something. You think he gives a rat's ass about the Italian community where he plays? He'll get satellite television with RAI, he'll fly his friends and family in and, in the modern world, there's good Italian restaurants everywhere. He wants to be with other people worth $50 million, and by the way he wants to maximize the brand/merchandise career. Nobody like him will ever come to Toronto again, unless there is some compelling non-football reason.

We need to find guys who are married to women with relatives in Toronto.

[Gazza_55]

Makes you wonder though who is actually lobbying for some owners to spend more than others. As you highlight, the league is the ultimate owner and revenue is shared. If the league (owner) has popular winning franchises in its largest markets, they stand to benefit do they not in terms of TV audience, ticket sales, etc? Just coincidence that the big names like Henry, Keane, Marquez, all landed in the 2 largest markets?

When you factor in that SUM is involved with Barcelona and MLS and Barcelona had a $0 transfer fee for the NYRBs... it was $5M for any team but NY... it sure sounds like a wonderfully convenient coincidence.

It was $5m for any team outside MLS. The league is a single entity. Henry wanted to play in NY.

Frankly all this conspiracy theory/LA and NY get favourable treatment whining is rather distasteful. With our payroll and if we had a manager and GM like Seattle's or RSL's we'd be one of the top teams year after year. If the league is bending the rules for LA/NY since the intro of DP's they are doing a terrible job.

[Shakes McQueen]

I think the problem has more to do with the net worth, lifestyle and security considerations of modern players of this caliber.

In the 80s the Blizzard signed someone just like ADP - a lifelong stud scorer for Juve - Roberto Bettega. Bobbygol. He came over for a year or two, made some money, had a few laughs. I vividly remember him being part of the Johnny Lombardi CHIN radio Christmas telecasts, and stuff like that. It probably mattered to him that Toronto was a really nice city for Italians, he could speak Italian and get a good pasta.

Compare that to Del Piero, who probably has a personal net worth of $50 million or something. You think he gives a rat's ass about the Italian community where he plays? He'll get satellite television with RAI, he'll fly his friends and family in and, in the modern world, there's good Italian restaurants everywhere. He wants to be with other people worth $50 million, and by the way he wants to maximize the brand/merchandise career. Nobody like him will ever come to Toronto again, unless there is some compelling non-football reason.

We need to find guys who are married to women with relatives in Toronto.

Yeah ensco, this is part of what I was originally getting at. Toronto being a world class city, or a really nice city, doesn't enter into the equation. These kinds of guys want to be in the cultural centres of the universe (and all of the benefits they bring - some of which you mentioned), and around people who enjoy the same standard of living they do.

It isn't a knock on Toronto. It's just one of the realities we have to contend with, being a major city in a country of 30 million people. We don't have the kind of pervasive cultural influence globally that places like Hollywood and New York have.

And beyond that, Toronto FC still have the ability to get the players they need to have success. If having access to players of Torsten Frings' footy calibre isnt' enough, it's time to look inward for the real problems.

- Scott

[Derko]

And MLS is not a 'World Class' league on the International Football Stage either. Designated Players aren't coming to North America for the quality of life. Most have enough money to live and play anywhere in the world. Money talks. I would argue that Frings is not a "get who we get" signing.

Totally agreee and by all means both Frings and Koevermans are quality players for TFC, but I honestly think there is extra considerations for the likes of L.A. and New York by the MLS hierachy. In layman's terms, back room dealings. :drinking:

[__wowza]

im sorry, some people are talking about the MLS rules being a joke in this thread and i really didn't know where else to post this so i'm going to do it here: WHY THE FUCK IS WITH THE NAME OF THE MLS WEBSITE!?

it's mlssoccer.com

but MLS is an acronym. so MLSsoccer actually stands for majorleaguesoccersoccer.com

fuck.
/rant.

[Joe Kool]

I think Drogba would be really well suited to MLS, but if I were him, I'd want to go out on top. Have there been any rumblings about him coming here?

I saw a recent interview with him and he said he could have still played for Chelsea but he wanted to leave on a high note after the Champions League. He has interest from Real Madrid as a next stop possibly so I seriously doubt he would pick MLS over that if that is the case. It sounds like he wants to go out on top like you mentioned.

[TOBOR !]

This Donovan fellow... any chance he could be transferred/sold to Everton and then loaned back to the Galaxy ?

Just wondering...

This thread started off well, but then became TLDR-ish. But no matter, I suppose.

Anyway, I could give a flying fcuk if some athletes don't want to come and play here. It makes me appreciate the ones who do a lot more.

[TOBOR !]

I saw a recent interview with him and he said he could have still played for Chelsea but he wanted to leave on a high note after the Champions League. He has interest from Real Madrid as a next stop possibly so I seriously doubt he would pick MLS over that if that is the case. It sounds like he wants to go out on top like you mentioned.

Drogba has already signed for Anelka's outfit Shanghai Xhenhua (or whatever it's called)... so, whatever - he just wants bags of cash.

edit - than again, I may have spoken too soon, but he is linked to them.

[Fort York Redcoat]

im sorry, some people are talking about the MLS rules being a joke in this thread and i really didn't know where else to post this so i'm going to do it here: WHY THE FUCK IS WITH THE NAME OF THE MLS WEBSITE!?

it's mlssoccer.com

but MLS is an acronym. so MLSsoccer actually stands for majorleaguesoccersoccer.com

fuck.
/rant.

A more dated ridiculous acronym/term:

CSA

I realize fully that Soccer is the accepted term for the sport in NA but

Association Football
As soc iaton Football
soccer

Canadian Association Football Association.

Love it.

[TOBOR !]

A more dated ridiculous acronym/term:

CSA

I realize fully that Soccer is the accepted term for the sport in NA but

Association Football
As soc iaton Football
soccer

Canadian Association Football Association.

Love it.

You're really reaching there :)

[Roogsy]

im sorry, some people are talking about the MLS rules being a joke in this thread and i really didn't know where else to post this so i'm going to do it here: WHY THE FUCK IS WITH THE NAME OF THE MLS WEBSITE!?

it's mlssoccer.com

but MLS is an acronym. so MLSsoccer actually stands for majorleaguesoccersoccer.com

fuck.
/rant.

LOL! I have the same beef...

[Oldtimer]

A more dated ridiculous acronym/term:

CSA



Interetingly enough, the CSA was founded as the Dominion Football Association.

"Dominion" being a nationalistic word back in the day.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Interetingly enough, the CSA was founded as the Dominion Football Association.

"Dominion" being a nationalistic word back in the day.




Mmmmm...Guess who's day you just made with that post?




http://images.wikia.com/althistory/images/3/3e/Dominion_of_canada_flag.png




But let's get this back to topic:


I think this situation will be resolved when Donovan gets Evertonian.