Whitecaps documentary on various MLS supporter groups

[Yohan]

Thought pretty interesting stuff on supporter culture in MLS


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp9lUX7xMmY&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqZEmcLLrZk&feature=plcp

[Yohan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl_AwNrpqEk&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms5RCKZWrzg&feature=plcp

[Yohan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X4mBT6f-nc&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPzXhfB74pQ&feature=plcp

[brad]

Damn - the Timbers Army are impressive.

[Furtado91]

I wish it could be like that in the south end. I would love to capo that. the power and emotion felt watching that is just amazing. lets get a little bit of that back here. whether it be tifos or what not. we should do one for the sake of it. I love tifos :P.

[maninb]

Damn!!! the Timbers Army put everyone else to shame....

[Relja]

I cant take curva collective seriously.......the first word means something totally hilarious in this context in Serbo-Croatian....

[james]

Columbus Crew don't look that good in the video. But some games once they get going are very loud, singing and jumping together, one of the loudest supporters in the league at times.

New England shit support. Need a new stadium actually in Boston and maybe fans will start coming out, does not help they play in a NFL stadium.

Vancouver whitecaps selling tickets look good, but when it comes to atmosphere/supporters...they are shit, laughable to see them really. The owners from day 1 never seemed to care about supporter groups.

San Jose, very small stadium still. Lets see once they move, the support may get much bigger and better as it did with Kansas last year.

Philly seem louder and more ogranized then our South End is in this video. THey also have a lot more banners then we do behind the net. What happened to those loads of banners we had hanging behind the net at the sky dome??? the amount of banners that were at sky dome would cover the whole south end and more. I also noticed the Philly supporters seem to have more of a friendship with the owners/ Front Office of Philly Union with ticket sales and all.

Portland....well nothing new to me, they have taken this league to the next level. There support is one that actually can rival some support in Europe! (but whats with the big pictures outside the stadium? reminds me of the Bank of Montreal adds they had with Toronto FC Fans looking like we are Greek warriors, was pathetic.)

[Auzzy]

^ Just wanted to mention -- in addition to New England's lousy stadium, their supporters have had some major recent problems with their FO, security, and cops as a result, which further dampened their spirits. Stuff like hassling people in the supporter's section about bad language, dragging them out of the stadium, etc. Going with a cheap rookie coach after a lousy season further killed things in the off-season when people had to renew (although that's now turning out better than expected).

I'm sure all that's been bad for their numbers & enthusiasm.

[Roogsy]

Is it not ironic that one of the clubs with the worst history of helping supporter culture (the Whitecaps) are putting out videos about supporters? That's jokes man. :lol:

SOBs was a good place to start though. Good on them.

I can't wait for the Toronto episode to come out. Such promise wasted...

[bones]

Damn!!! the Timbers Army put everyone else to shame....

Impressive yes. They've been at it a good long while though and......THEY HAVE A FLIPPIN ROOF!

[bigredone]

The Ultras are entertaining. Thanks for posting. Do you think the coverage of TFC's will be fair? I figure they are pretty bitter.

[Blakfish]

hahaha, 10 people getting involved in Vancouver. Passion, boys, passion.

[Yohan]

hahaha, 10 people getting involved in Vancouver. Passion, boys, passion.

that clip was on one of Vancouver's other supporter groups, not the Southsiders which is the biggest one

[ryan]

that clip was on one of Vancouver's other supporter groups, not the Southsiders which is the biggest one

Really showed during the V's Cup :rolleyes:

[Yeoman]

curva just formed in the last while
my brother is associated with them.
they seem to have a proper plan and guide line in to sort out and grow the group.

[Jack]

Timbers Army is very impressive.

[mowe]

Very cool feature. Neat to see all these groups big and small just trying to grow the game of soccer across North America. Major props to all of them.

[james]

Impressive yes. They've been at it a good long while though and......THEY HAVE A FLIPPIN ROOF!

the reason they are well organised, have big supporter group, good tifos, flags and banners is not just because they have a roof. A roof is nice yes! but there is a lot more to it tho that make them have the best atmosphere in MLS!

[james]

that clip was on one of Vancouver's other supporter groups, not the Southsiders which is the biggest one

even there bigger supporter group is shit tho. That said Toronto FC has fallen way down the ladder in recent years, most games if you were to do a video of our supporting culture it would not look much better. I would be bit embarrassed actually if people saw the atmosphere at a average match. It just once in a while we come out of our shell and show that TFC fans are one of the best in MLS when all the supporters come out, example passed games vs clubs like LA home match in first year, Columbus away game 2,000+ fans, Montreal V cup games, and LA at Sky Dome this year!

[james]

^ Just wanted to mention -- in addition to New England's lousy stadium, their supporters have had some major recent problems with their FO, security, and cops as a result, which further dampened their spirits. Stuff like hassling people in the supporter's section about bad language, dragging them out of the stadium, etc. Going with a cheap rookie coach after a lousy season further killed things in the off-season when people had to renew (although that's now turning out better than expected).

I'm sure all that's been bad for their numbers & enthusiasm.


you would think New England management would start to take notice how other clubs Supporter Culture is catching on and maybe start encouraging it there...but nope they seem to not want anything to do with it. Tho sometimes i start to think the same about TFC management/Front office not wanting anything to do with supporter culture.

[Parkdale]

I would be bit embarrassed actually if people saw the atmosphere at a average match.

Sadly, an "average" match usually involves us losing, and the team playing like they have nothing to play for. Sometime's it's amazing (like when we beat Vancouver at home) but often it's strained. I know it will turn around, and all the hardcore supporters will still be there to see it... I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

[Code Red]

These mini-docs are great. MLS themselves should have taken initiative and put together these videos, instead it seems VWC have taken matters into their own hands. Good on them.

Anyone know if they are filming at all away matches or selecting as they go?

[james]

Sadly, an "average" match usually involves us losing, and the team playing like they have nothing to play for. Sometime's it's amazing (like when we beat Vancouver at home) but often it's strained. I know it will turn around, and all the hardcore supporters will still be there to see it... I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

very true! :facepalm::scarf:

[AL-MO]

Is it not ironic that one of the clubs with the worst history of helping supporter culture (the Whitecaps) are putting out videos about supporters? That's jokes man. :lol:

SOBs was a good place to start though. Good on them.

I can't wait for the Toronto episode to come out. Such promise wasted...

LOL...I'm with you on all of this.

It will be interesting to see what they show vs. the reality of TFC Support.

[RedRum]

Sadly, an "average" match usually involves us losing, and the team playing like they have nothing to play for. Sometime's it's amazing (like when we beat Vancouver at home) but often it's strained. I know it will turn around, and all the hardcore supporters will still be there to see it... I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

C'mon Mike the "poor record responsible for dwindling support argument" is pure jokes. Even worse is the belief that winning will fix what is now completely broken. Support started going downhill long before this year.

FO deserves blame for the predicament we are in no doubt. So do we as supporters. For not seeing the writing on the wall some time ago, standing up for ourselves, demanding change and a new way of doing things.

Roogsy had a great quote a while back: "It takes a special kind of incompetence to kill the golden goose".

[maxpower]

The timbers army are fantastic aren't they? They truly do everything a supporters group should. I heard one story where they had some sort of run in with their FO over tickets or something rather. Anyways, in short, the timbers army boycotted the entire season. and because this was before they had renovated there stadium, the stadium fences were small enough so all of the timbers army could watch every game from ladders outside the stadium...

A WHOLE SEASON. ON A LADDER.

[james]

there has been many things that have caused are dwindling support, from FO working against us more often then with us, steep rising ticket prices, bad weather with no roof or shelter, bad on pitch performance, us not being organised enough and the list could go on.

[james]

C'mon Mike the "poor record responsible for dwindling support argument" is pure jokes. Even worse is the belief that winning will fix what is now completely broken. Support started going downhill long before this year.

FO deserves blame for the predicament we are in no doubt. So do we as supporters. For not seeing the writing on the wall some time ago, standing up for ourselves, demanding change and a new way of doing things.

Roogsy had a great quote a while back: "It takes a special kind of incompetence to kill the golden goose".

people talked about protesting all the time against such things on the boards....but we didn't do a whole lot about it, all we did was a few small things such as North End doing some dollar sign tifo (which was the best effort on the issue) and Red Patch boys telling other fans not to sing...neither of them was enough as we should of forced these issues until they were solved or at least did some sort of display like North End did every week!

[Roogsy]

The timbers army are fantastic aren't they? They truly do everything a supporters group should. I heard one story where they had some sort of run in with their FO over tickets or something rather. Anyways, in short, the timbers army boycotted the entire season. and because this was before they had renovated there stadium, the stadium fences were small enough so all of the timbers army could watch every game from ladders outside the stadium...

A WHOLE SEASON. ON A LADDER.

THIS is a supporters group.

Toronto fans don't have this kind of discipline nor dedication.

[Roogsy]

people talked about protesting all the time against such things on the boards....but we didn't do a whole lot about it, all we did was a few small things such as North End doing some dollar sign tifo (which was the best effort on the issue) and Red Patch boys telling other fans not to sing...neither of them was enough as we should of forced these issues until they were solved or at least did some sort of display like North End did every week!

Actually RPB did not tell anyone not to sing. That initative was taken by NEE and many RPB followed suit because we agreed.

For all the complaints on this board about "protest", I only recall 2 actual protests by supporters. The 1st was the demonstration at Gate 4 by about 100 fans and the 2nd was the green/silent protest of 2010, and yes I participated in both of them (for those who keep asking me "what do you do".)

There has never really been anything since. Despite our shockingly poor record. Which always makes me chuckle when I hear complaints about "all these protests". 2 protests in 6 years with a club that has this kind of track record is extremely forgiving.

[james]

The timbers army are fantastic aren't they? They truly do everything a supporters group should. I heard one story where they had some sort of run in with their FO over tickets or something rather. Anyways, in short, the timbers army boycotted the entire season. and because this was before they had renovated there stadium, the stadium fences were small enough so all of the timbers army could watch every game from ladders outside the stadium...

A WHOLE SEASON. ON A LADDER.

thats awsome. Back then there group was also much smaller tho, how many people actually did that i am not sure, would be interesting to find out how true this story is, or was it just 10 guys. Even that tho takes a lot to put that much effort into it.

[London]

support in Toronto is brutal, everyone needs to look at themselves and ask what they can do to help, unfortunatly people still believe TFC support IS or EVER WAS the best in MLS, that sadly is not the case

[Jack]

If that is too forgiving, let's have some more people step up to leadership roles and take the initiative on putting more pressure, as it seems they want. It's easy to rant and rail, both at the team and at other supporters, on a message board. I would love to see more pressure, but taking veiled shots at RPB or other supporters is not going to promote unity of purpose. It is very, very hard to get people on board for a negative display. I took a boatload of shit for it and so did Boris, both from within and without this group.

The initiative and the drive have to come from everyone, so the leadership have something with which they can work. There are a vocal minority who clamour for this, but it seems that a silent majority are taking a "wait and see" attitude. I know it can be frustrating, but putting down and being condescending is not a way to rally others to your cause.

You are only superior in your own mirror.

[Roogsy]

I know it can be frustrating, but putting down and being condescending is not a way to rally others to your cause.


I don't know where in the post was I putting down anyone. My posts merely stated the facts. RPB did not initiate any of the protests and merely reacted when others had already started. I was there, these are the facts.

Therefore, my opinion is that there is little reason to complain about protests when there have only been two. When we read things about how there have been too many protests, it's kind of a headscratcher.

At this point, I am not trying to rally anyone to any cause. You can only lead a horse to water, you can't make them drink. If after everything that has transpired at this club, there isn't any motivation to act, then there never will be. This isn't a "wait and see" attitude...it's already a "wait and keep waiting" decision.

For the record, I do think it's unfair that RPB leadership were blamed (credited? Depending on who you talk to) for the protests. While RPB did decide to join in on a limited basis, getting it started was more of a grassroots issue and nobody should be blamed for it.

[james]

Actually RPB did not tell anyone not to sing. That initative was taken by NEE and many RPB followed suit because we agreed.

For all the complaints on this board about "protest", I only recall 2 actual protests by supporters. The 1st was the demonstration at Gate 4 by about 100 fans and the 2nd was the green/silent protest of 2010, and yes I participated in both of them (for those who keep asking me "what do you do".)

There has never really been anything since. Despite our shockingly poor record. Which always makes me chuckle when I hear complaints about "all these protests". 2 protests in 6 years with a club that has this kind of track record is extremely forgiving.

i think when people said all these protests it was more protests that people kept talking about on the message board. When you read them it seemed like we had a protest every week. But we weren't organised enough and as you said barely any actually got done. Really as the supporter group gets smaller it is probably getting more important that we get better organised soon. A start would be if South End seats could be turned into open tickets.

[Jack]

RPB did initiate the All-Star protest. I wasn't involved in the organisation of the other, so I can't say. Either way, they are supporters protests in which people from this group participated. Supporters working together to try to improve their team. I'm not going to measure my dick about how many were started by whom. There is so much dick-measuring these days about who is what kind of supporter that it makes me tired.

[Roogsy]

i think when people said all these protests it was more protests that people kept talking about on the message board. When you read them it seemed like we had a protest every week. But we weren't organised enough and as you said barely any actually got done. Really as the supporter group gets smaller it is probably getting more important that we get better organised soon. A start would be if South End seats could be turned into open tickets.


This is true. While there have only been two actual protests, the talk of protests has been pretty extensive and continuous. I guess it could be tiring hearing about possible protests all the time, but there has to be a differentiation between the talk of protests and the actual protests themselves.

[Jack]

Indeed there is a wide chasm between Internet talk and action.

[trane]

I don't know where in the post was I putting down anyone. My posts merely stated the facts. RPB did not initiate any of the protests and merely reacted when others had already started. I was there, these are the facts.

Therefore, my opinion is that there is little reason to complain about protests when there have only been two. When we read things about how there have been too many protests, it's kind of a headscratcher.

At this point, I am not trying to rally anyone to any cause. You can only lead a horse to water, you can't make them drink. If after everything that has transpired at this club, there isn't any motivation to act, then there never will be. This isn't a "wait and see" attitude...it's already a "wait and keep waiting" decision.

For the record, I do think it's unfair that RPB leadership were blamed (credited? Depending on who you talk to) for the protests. While RPB did decide to join in on a limited basis, getting it started was more of a grassroots issue and nobody should be blamed for it.


That is because this horse drinks kool aid, not water.

[james]

well i wish i put more effort in. I sang every game and showed up every game, went to a few away games, it was fun. If there was a protest and i was there, i would join in. But i never seemed to have enough time to do any more then that between work, college and friends. And now I have been abraod for the passed 2 seasons, i should be back tho in the summer!

[maxpower]

thats awsome. Back then there group was also much smaller tho, how many people actually did that i am not sure, would be interesting to find out how true this story is, or was it just 10 guys. Even that tho takes a lot to put that much effort into it.

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2012/02/22/the-pitch-invasion-podcast-episode-2/

that's a podcast featuring a timbers supporter on all things timbers army. The part about the ladders begins around minute 12

[james]

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2012/02/22/the-pitch-invasion-podcast-episode-2/

that's a podcast featuring a timbers supporter on all things timbers army. The part about the ladders begins around minute 12

well good to here. As he said tho Timber Army have come a long way from what it was 6-7 years ago.

[Jack]

That is because this horse drinks kool aid, not water.
Zing. You are tenacious, man. :lol:

[trane]

^ Anger works for me.

[But to be honest I still have hope deep in my heart]

[Fort York Redcoat]

So much horse talk. So much whinnying.





:deadhorse:

[trane]

^ Who is whining???? Show me the fool.

[Phil]

For the protests a few years ago, it was a building of anger matched with the ticket increase. We came up with the wear green, ran it past the membership and went live with a series of articles and demonstration. The majority of the actions in the stands were based off the moment and overall were quite effective in communicating the issues. The town halls furthered a platform of discussion where the teams management heard the displeasure.

The constant talk of protesting on the board in general gives the appearance to many that its all we are about, hence those comments you read over and over.

Again, I see so many people complaining about things and so very few real suggestions about any actions. Showing our asses, although funny isnt realistic. It just wont be effective without people concentrated and commited, so its a joke. Same with throwing a jersey on the pitch. These shots at supporters groups and others while proclaiming to want to be all together is getting tired and played too.

For the first time this season we do have a bit of hope in terms of some very limited results. People want to see where this goes before jumping into the angry mode again. The anger only lasts so long. On the other hand apathy is an equal enemy.

[Phil]

^ Who is whining???? Show me the fool.

The fact you keep posting the same line over and over makes it look like you.

[trane]

^ Thanks Phil, for I did not get it for myself. How many more members are going to leave this year, under your great leadership?

[Pookie]

Back to topic.

It would be curious to see what would happen to the Timbers Army if they went through 5 seasons under MLSE-like leadership with a revolving door cast of players, coaches combined with year over year of double digit ticket price increases.

To the credit of Toronto fans and supporters, I was amazed that last Saturday's game was as full and as loud as it was despite all that we have been through since 2007.

[maxpower]

Back to topic.

It would be curious to see what would happen to the Timbers Army if they went through 5 seasons under MLSE-like leadership with a revolving door cast of players, coaches combined with year over year of double digit ticket price increases.

To the credit of Toronto fans and supporters, I was amazed that last Saturday's game was as full and as loud as it was despite all that we have been through since 2007.

The timbers have (arguably) suffered through much more then we have. keep in mind they were owned by a baseball league only a few years ago.

I was also completely amazed at how may people there were there on Saturday. probably had something to do with being the first hot game of the season

[Cashcleaner]

Actually RPB did not tell anyone not to sing. That initative was taken by NEE and many RPB followed suit because we agreed.

For all the complaints on this board about "protest", I only recall 2 actual protests by supporters. The 1st was the demonstration at Gate 4 by about 100 fans and the 2nd was the green/silent protest of 2010, and yes I participated in both of them (for those who keep asking me "what do you do".)

There has never really been anything since. Despite our shockingly poor record. Which always makes me chuckle when I hear complaints about "all these protests". 2 protests in 6 years with a club that has this kind of track record is extremely forgiving.

Really?!

I'd have to disagree. While RPB may have actually taken part in 2 official demonstrations, There has still been a lot of protests - and most importantly - a lot of TALK about protests over the last six years. That's precisely why so many people know mention that they are all "protested out".

[Kyle_121]

Back to topic.

It would be curious to see what would happen to the Timbers Army if they went through 5 seasons under MLSE-like leadership with a revolving door cast of players, coaches combined with year over year of double digit ticket price increases.

To the credit of Toronto fans and supporters, I was amazed that last Saturday's game was as full and as loud as it was despite all that we have been through since 2007.

It was within a few days of a huge win for the club. Everyone was focused on winning rather than just not losing again. I think you'll be hard pressed to see the same enthusiasm after the next miserable loss at home.

[Yohan]

stop hijacking my thread. grrrr

[Pookie]

The timbers have (arguably) suffered through much more then we have. keep in mind they were owned by a baseball league only a few years ago.



Fair enough but sustaining momentum with crowds of under 8,000 is a little easier to do, even with a challenging ownership. They are now in a packed house with interest coming from all corners of the city. With growth comes challenge and without a solid foundation (communication, structure, transparency, dispute resolution, etc) it becomes very hard for any organization... especially passionate soccer fans... to keep aligned in difficult weather.

Portland's ownership group is already coming under fire for being one of the cheaper groups in the league. It will be interesting to watch this one play out.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Back to topic.

It would be curious to see what would happen to the Timbers Army if they went through 5 seasons under MLSE-like leadership with a revolving door cast of players, coaches combined with year over year of double digit ticket price increases.



Anyone who spoke to members of other SGs of other teams in our formative years would know they said the exact thing to us. What would we look like in 5 years? Well we're here. Not even half as old as the league and there's people fading away. I see the excuses/reasons. But forever is a lot longer than 6 yrs. I'd be interested to talk to some of the older SG's to see if their membership was cyclical and people came back after they had time off to re-energize their spirits.

[Roogsy]

Really?!

I'd have to disagree. While RPB may have actually taken part in 2 official demonstrations, There has still been a lot of protests - and most importantly - a lot of TALK about protests over the last six years. That's precisely why so many people know mention that they are all "protested out".

I guess we all agree there have been 2 official protests. As for the other protests, I guess it depends on what the definition of protest is. For some, it's the boos we have heard at some games. For others it's more involved. I am not sure what other protests there have been that you are referring to, but they haven't been organized or extensive.

[Phil]

Anyone who spoke to members of other SGs of other teams in our formative years would know they said the exact thing to us. What would we look like in 5 years? Well we're here. Not even half as old as the league and there's people fading away. I see the excuses/reasons. But forever is a lot longer than 6 yrs. I'd be interested to talk to some of the older SG's to see if their membership was cyclical and people came back after they had time off to re-energize their spirits.

When DC supporters were up last time I had a good chat and they have been through a lot of the same results (not sure about ownership issues that we have though). Pretty much, they predicted what is happening with pinpoint accuracy. Supporters turning on one another, numbers going down in the stands, bickering. People return, new people come on board when things turn around. It seems very cyclical in a lot of respects.

[RedRum]

The timbers army are fantastic aren't they? They truly do everything a supporters group should. I heard one story where they had some sort of run in with their FO over tickets or something rather. Anyways, in short, the timbers army boycotted the entire season. and because this was before they had renovated there stadium, the stadium fences were small enough so all of the timbers army could watch every game from ladders outside the stadium...

A WHOLE SEASON. ON A LADDER.

U.N.I.T.Y

Simple concept, evidently quite effective.



people talked about protesting all the time against such things on the boards....but we didn't do a whole lot about it, all we did was a few small things such as North End doing some dollar sign tifo (which was the best effort on the issue) and Red Patch boys telling other fans not to sing...neither of them was enough as we should of forced these issues until they were solved or at least did some sort of display like North End did every week!

NEE did a helluva lot more than that to draw attention to all kinds of issues, the vast majority of which even people who have been around since day 1 have no clue about - trust me on that one. A small group of guys with no leaders, but a concept of putting the group ahead of what your own personal opinion might be.

U.N.I.T.Y

Simple concept, evidently quite effective.


If that is too forgiving, let's have some more people step up to leadership roles and take the initiative on putting more pressure, as it seems they want. It's easy to rant and rail, both at the team and at other supporters, on a message board. I would love to see more pressure, but taking veiled shots at RPB or other supporters is not going to promote unity of purpose. It is very, very hard to get people on board for a negative display. I took a boatload of shit for it and so did Boris, both from within and without this group.

The initiative and the drive have to come from everyone, so the leadership have something with which they can work. There are a vocal minority who clamour for this, but it seems that a silent majority are taking a "wait and see" attitude. I know it can be frustrating, but putting down and being condescending is not a way to rally others to your cause.

You are only superior in your own mirror.

This is where strong leadership becomes vital. If you are going the hierarchy route, you need leaders with the sensibility to see when the status quo is suicide and the motivation to do something about it. Don't misinterpret my words Jack, you were a great prez.


The fact you keep posting the same line over and over makes it look like you.


^ Thanks Phil, for I did not get it for myself. How many more members are going to leave this year, under your great leadership?

Phil man why not have a civilized debate with him instead of the snarky comment calling him a fool? His question is valid. The number of truly passionate guys who have either left in disillusionment or been banned outright from the RPB boards over the last 5 years makes my head spin. Year 6 and here we are lacking passion. I don't get the thought process behind that.


Anyone who spoke to members of other SGs of other teams in our formative years would know they said the exact thing to us. What would we look like in 5 years? Well we're here. Not even half as old as the league and there's people fading away. I see the excuses/reasons. But forever is a lot longer than 6 yrs. I'd be interested to talk to some of the older SG's to see if their membership was cyclical and people came back after they had time off to re-energize their spirits.

Go ask the crew who's support was garbage before they were forced to all stand together, now they are more than respectable. Go ask District Ultras how to combat stagnating support and build something. Go ask Section 8... they can give you a simple how-to guide guaranteed not to fail under the similar circumstances we are facing.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Go ask the crew who's support was garbage before they were forced to all stand together, now they are more than respectable. Go ask District Ultras how to combat stagnating support and build something. Go ask Section 8... they can give you a simple how-to guide guaranteed not to fail under the similar circumstances we are facing.

I'm sure I'll run into them in time.

Unity IS a great thing when it endures but apparently a simple concept is not always easy to apply.

[Stouffville_RPB]

The thing iI think that sperates NA supporters with their European counterparts is the fa t that they all give to charities. The group of people that make SGs is differrenr from their counterparts in Europe.

[AL-MO]

The thing iI think that sperates NA supporters with their European counterparts is the fa t that they all give to charities. The group of people that make SGs is differrenr from their counterparts in Europe.

Not necessarily the case. Go look at the thread I posted a few years ago called "Ultras Report 2009" (i think?). Its posted in the members section.

Its about a Russian Ultras group, and they have the exact same problems as RPB did/does. And part of their annual activities is charity. Some people thought it was an interesting read, others chose to criticize and say things like "We're not like them" (which made me laugh at the time, and still does).

Someone with access should bump it.

[AL-MO]

stop hijacking my thread. grrrr

LOL!

[AL-MO]

I'm sure I'll run into them in time.

Unity IS a great thing when it endures but apparently a simple concept is not always easy to apply.

Been tried already this season. The results of that were as the kids say "Epic Fail".

[james]

Not necessarily the case. Go look at the thread I posted a few years ago called "Ultras Report 2009" (i think?). Its posted in the members section.

Its about a Russian Ultras group, and they have the exact same problems as RPB did/does. And part of their annual activities is charity. Some people thought it was an interesting read, others chose to criticize and say things like "We're not like them" (which made me laugh at the time, and still does).

Someone with access should bump it.

that "we have the best fans ever, all other fans in the league are shit" mentality in the early years so many people had at TFC makes me cringe now!

[Fort York Redcoat]

that "we have the best fans ever, all other fans in the league are shit" mentality in the early years so many people had at TFC makes me cringe now!

It was definitely an arrogance coming from a sense of achievement in the stands. That's aged into a more educated sense of our place in the league and temperance due to lack of success on the pitch.


But we're getting away from the topic again. Other teams supporters and the doc in general.

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

Portland Supporters are class no doubt! But we have a hell of a supporter cast also...but are very limited at BMO field...out biggest problem we have that a supporter group like the Timber Army dont face is a proper supporter section!

You dont have to look back to far to realize that when giving a Supporter Section of its own TFC supporters are 2nd to none when it comes to support in MLS!

ROGERS and COLUMBUS.....TFC MASSES in its own SEcTION...need i say more?

The FO fucked up here not the supporters..the northend should of been giving to us simple!

So the fact is.....can we be the best when givin the opportunity? YES!! Will it ever happen ? NO What you see now at BMO is what you will see for good! We are maxed out...and without our own section this is as good as it gets!

For Example!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GeyERqNAdg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4XD3Xi6tYo&feature=fvwrel

[james]

Portland Supporters are class no doubt! But we have a hell of a supporter cast also...but are very limited at BMO field...out biggest problem we have that a supporter group like the Timber Army dont face is a proper supporter section!

You dont have to look back to far to realize that when giving a Supporter Section of its own TFC supporters are 2nd to none when it comes to support in MLS!

ROGERS and COLUMBUS.....TFC MASSES in its own SEcTION...need i say more?

The FO fucked up here not the supporters..the northend should of been giving to us simple!

So the fact is.....can we be the best when givin the opportunity? YES!! Will it ever happen ? NO What you see now at BMO is what you will see for good! We are maxed out...and without our own section this is as good as it gets!

For Example!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GeyERqNAdg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4XD3Xi6tYo&feature=fvwrel

well as i said early in this post, every now and then us supporters come out of our shell and show that we can support among the best in MLS. But an average game we are nothing special really.

I think you are right when you say what we have is what we will have for a long time as far as having our supporters section is probably true. We need our own stand or control of the tickets in the South End. And i don't see MLSE jumping at that idea. But the hope is still there that one days MLSE will make the South End tickets sold like a terrace, or North End becomes the new Supporters section, or renovation/exspansion is done on BMO and a proper supporters section is made! these are all very unlikely tho, renovation/exspansion is probably the more likely of those ideas even tho as far fetched as that sounds.

[james]

i want to see them do a video on Chicago supporters...some games they have no fans there, others they are impressive with there Flares and Tifos. Hard to say what Chicago fans will you get!

[Phil]

Phil man why not have a civilized debate with him instead of the snarky comment calling him a fool? His question is valid. The number of truly passionate guys who have either left in disillusionment or been banned outright from the RPB boards over the last 5 years makes my head spin. Year 6 and here we are lacking passion. I don't get the thought process behind that.




I just addressed the fact that multiple threads were being trolled by him with some silly comments that is all. As for the people leaving, I think a lot of people join groups with certain intentions and they find out that the group is different than their expectation. The same thing has happened to NEE. Its going to happen as long as groups continue to refine and seek their places. Support in soccer is still being understood by everyone in the stands and its an ongoing process. I have found that many people who left told me their reasoning and its philisophical in nature so I respect that. As for the bannings, the board rules are pretty clear.

[toronto toronto]

I see a lot of opinions, suggestions and complaints time in and time out surrounding our clubs supporter culture on the current state, on how we compare to other club supporters groups/sections and what we should look like or be.

I am not to sure what has been done historically by the numerous supporter groups or what is in the pipelines, however to state the obvious, I believe we need to take a step back and say to ourselves where do want to be and what steps do we have to take collectively to get there. There will be obstacles within and between the other supporter groups as well as with MLSE, however that is a given. Hypothetically, if we wanted to have a similar situation like that of Philadelphia in terms of a unified supporters section with designated supporter cards and being self monitored, how do we accomplish that, what does the framework look like to achieve this end result? .

There should be no reason why we can not achieve what currently Portland has in terms of support and a unified supporters section "regardless" of our clubs performance for the past 6 seasons. I use Portland in the ladder as I am confident that the majority of the TFC supporters would like to be in the similar environment of what they currently have. So let’s ask ourselves the question, what is being done as we speak to get where want to be and do we know what that looks like?

[Cashcleaner]

I guess we all agree there have been 2 official protests. As for the other protests, I guess it depends on what the definition of protest is. For some, it's the boos we have heard at some games. For others it's more involved. I am not sure what other protests there have been that you are referring to, but they haven't been organized or extensive.

What are the 2 protests you are thinking of? I'm including the black shirt CSA march and display as one. It wasn't about TFC, but it was organized by the supporter groups and took place at BMO Field so I think it should count.

[Nestease]

This is OUR HOUSE! :facepalm:

http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/toronto/files/imagecache/620x350/image_nodes/2012/06/TFC-CRM-BANNER_620x350-V2.jpg

[RedRum]

I just addressed the fact that multiple threads were being trolled by him with some silly comments that is all. As for the people leaving, I think a lot of people join groups with certain intentions and they find out that the group is different than their expectation. The same thing has happened to NEE. Its goivng to happen as long as groups continue to refine and seek their places. Support in soccer is still being understood by everyone in the stands and its an ongoing process. I have found that many people who left told me their reasoning and its philisophical in nature so I respect that. As for the bannings, the board rules are pretty clear.

One could argue that the most passionate that have left or been banned subscribed on this motto only to find it didn't meet their expectations:

We are the voice in the stands
filled with passion, pride and purpose
for every minute of every game.

In your opinion, is the RPB charter still relevant as far as membership goes? Not trying to be antagonistic, honest question in response to your post.

[FluSH]

I skimmed through the entire thread hoping to find strategy and plans for the future... Seems like we are still stuck on the past.

Passion moves you forward
Hate and Anger keeps you looking back

[denime]

i skimmed through the entire thread hoping to find strategy and plans for the future... Seems like we are still stuck on the past.

passion moves you forward
hate and anger keeps you looking back


qft 100%

[Jack]

I haven't read such a good post in a long time, Flush.

[Whoop]

What AL-MO was talking about.

Very good read. Forget about where they are located and what not but just think of them as a SG. Same issues worldwide.

http://fratria.org/english/fratria_resume_2009/

I remember as they talked about membership and instituting fees for membership much like the issues that RPB had when they instituted membership fees and the encompassing issues.

[Parkdale]

We are the voice in the stands
filled with passion, pride and purpose
for every minute of every game.

In your opinion, is the RPB charter still relevant as far as membership goes? Not trying to be antagonistic, honest question in response to your post.

I'd say yes, because all the members who are still here, still embody that statement.

[AL-MO]

What AL-MO was talking about.

Very good read. Forget about where they are located and what not but just think of them as a SG. Same issues worldwide.

http://fratria.org/english/fratria_resume_2009/

I remember as they talked about membership and instituting fees for membership much like the issues that RPB had when they instituted membership fees and the encompassing issues.

Thanks for taking the time to find this.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_89XkBrjLkpk/SxEKls64OlI/AAAAAAAAP90/8Qr6Do57Zao/s720/IMG_1485%201600.jpg

[Redcoe15]

I skimmed through the entire thread hoping to find strategy and plans for the future... Seems like we are still stuck on the past.

PASSION MOVES YOU FORWARD
HATE AND ANGER KEEPS YOU LOOKING BACK

Required statement for everyone here! :thumbsup:

[Wagner]

I don't understand why people come on here, take their personal time, to tell us what we're doing wrong.
Either help us move forward, or get out of the way.

I don't come to your house/work/etc and tell you how you're coming up short.
and if i did, sit in your living room, and talk about how you were better 2 years ago, you'd tell me to "f off".

now a member is family, and they might offer a corrective criticism, which is expected.
but a registered user is a guest. and if i had someone come to my place, and they started yapping about how i was cooler 5 years ago, i'd tell them to get out.

and why would this guest take the time to come over and complain.
they might argue that they care, but if they cared, they'd be a member, and help move forward, rather than just refer to the "good old days" which was just 3,4,5 years ago.

If you aren't helping us move forward, you're deadweight.

[Roogsy]

I don't see any registered users stopping anyone either as individuals or as a group from moving forward. If the group isn't moving forward you only have internally to look.

As for not wanting to hear people's opinions that you dislike, the answer is simple. Make the forum "members only".

[Wagner]

Why waste your time referring to wasted potential?
why not just move on?

[Roogsy]

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Whether I like it or not the members and users on this board influence the direction this team takes. If left to complacency, as has been the pattern to date, the leadership of this team will never feel the pressure to perform.

[denime]

I don't see any registered users stopping anyone either as individuals or as a group from moving forward. If the group isn't moving forward you only have internally to look.

As for not wanting to hear people's opinions that you dislike, the answer is simple. Make the forum "members only".


Watch what you wish for,many members are actually for this.

[Roogsy]

If it ever happens, good for you. But you should be warning your members, not me.

[Flint]

What AL-MO was talking about.

Very good read. Forget about where they are located and what not but just think of them as a SG. Same issues worldwide.

http://fratria.org/english/fratria_resume_2009/

I remember as they talked about membership and instituting fees for membership much like the issues that RPB had when they instituted membership fees and the encompassing issues.

very good read indeed!

Thanks for posting.

[Wagner]

Dude,
we are in our sixth year?
what history is there to repeat?

the first few years were a "honeymoon"
we've dealt with the mojo era.
now we are 2 years into the Winter rebuilding era.

it's easy to toss cliches that are loosely linked to your agenda.

rather than snipe from the sidelines, come to a banner session, organize a road trip, help with administrative paper work?

I'm guessing you won't , it's a lot EASIER to sit on the sidelines and talk about "the good old days" like Al Bundy.

Wasted potential?, more like wasted words on your part.

I know the nultras broke away, but I have a lot more respect for them. They didn't like the direction of the group. which is fine. but rather than spinning their wheels, trying to change the minds of the majority of RPB members, they have focused their energy and passion into projects. Yes they criticize the larger groups from time to time, but they are still contributing to the game day experience.

[Wagner]

why do you come on these boards if you are against us?

simple question.
if the group disappoints you, what brings you here?

super simple and honest question.

[Roogsy]

What banner session? Point me to one that's been held since the league season started?

Organize travel? I have for me and friends. Arent you guys only allowed to organize for members? Since I am not one, why would I help you, would that not violate the rules?

Since the more "passionate" element of this group has left what has RPB done with almost 1/3 of the year done?

And how do you know I haven't put my part in non-RPB efforts? Do you think RPB is the end-all be-all of support in Toronto?

The only reason I am here is because this is where the most TFC/MLS discussion happens in Toronto. The day you guys no longer invite non-member users to contribute will be the day this board stops being the most active place for discussion of soccer in Toronto and there will be a large migration of users elsewhere to chat TFC, myself included. Until then, just make the rules clear, I will follow them and if you don't like what I say, prove me wrong. Pretty simple.

[RedRum]

I skimmed through the entire thread hoping to find strategy and plans for the future... Seems like we are still stuck on the past.



Exactly dude... we are stuck in the past. A past that was something to be proud of, the present is shit and frankly shameful as far as support goes knowing the level we reached previously and are capable of. I know and respect you. You know - and I would like to think respect me. We are both passionate supporters. There are others as well, what we need is cohesion among them to get things back on track.




Passion moves you forward
Hate and Anger keeps you looking back

Fucking eh to that.



I'd say yes, because all the members who are still here, still embody that statement.

Cmon thats not accurate and you know it. 90 minutes? That's the exception and not the norm now especially league games.



I don't understand why people come on here, take their personal time, to tell us what we're doing wrong.
Either help us move forward, or get out of the way.

Solely for the need to see support improve, get back on track, and once again become something to be proud of. The status quo has us in the death throes, in case you haven't noticed.




I don't come to your house/work/etc and tell you how you're coming up short.
and if i did, sit in your living room, and talk about how you were better 2 years ago, you'd tell me to "f off".



I have people offer me pointers and constructive criticism at work all the time. Someone belligerent or condescending of course I tell them fuck off. Someone with genuine intent I thank them for their input. Didn't you run for political office previously and lose? Would you not accept advice in the future about how you could better your campaign and become more effective in your message and ultimately succeed at your goals?




now a member is family, and they might offer a corrective criticism, which is expected.
but a registered user is a guest. and if i had someone come to my place, and they started yapping about how i was cooler 5 years ago, i'd tell them to get out.

and why would this guest take the time to come over and complain.
they might argue that they care, but if they cared, they'd be a member, and help move forward, rather than just refer to the "good old days" which was just 3,4,5 years ago.

If you aren't helping us move forward, you're deadweight.




Not complaining. I am a former member, and a passionate supporter. I know pretty well all the RPB "hierarchy" being around since the middle of season 1. I'm pretty sure those that know me, know I am not some asshole hiding behind a keyboard and more importantly would confirm that any words I write on a message board I would also convey to you in a conversation at Shoes. Rob, the only time I recall meeting you is when I was asked to be a bus captain some time ago for an away game. I am sorry we are not on a more personal level, but again, I am always into sitting down for an in person conversation - absolutely. I confess I like to debate viewpoints and am a person who is proud to say when I was wrong, and someone else convinced me of the path of righteousness. It happens fairly often lol.

In case you haven't noticed from my posts the last 2 or 3 years, I am trying to help support move forward.

[Roogsy]

And in my opinion, being in the 6th year is not a good excuse. In fact quite the opposite. Support in general has regressed when it should be better than ever, and not all of it due to the results on the pitch. But even if it was all due to the poor form of the club, seeing how it effects support, why then have SGs not been more vocal? Are the SGs not the supposed voice of the fans? If so where has that voice been as support is dwindling due to management incompetence? It's a somewhat hypocritical demand that non-affiliated supporters be asked what they do while the most influential SGs have been pretty much silent while the team suffers through incredibly damaging events.

Taking it back to the original topic of this thread, support is miles behind support elsewhere in the league and dislike me all you want, the dissatisfaction of one ol' curmudgeon like me is hardly the reason for it. You campaigned on improving support in Toronto...the real important question is as an executive of the largest SG in Toronto, what have you done to keep your campaign promise?

[RedRum]

I'm sure I'll run into them in time.

Unity IS a great thing when it endures but apparently a simple concept is not always easy to apply.

When you run into Section 8 be sure to thank them for the instance 2 years ago when they got wind that our FO was overstepping their authority with regard to SG's and without prompting took it upon themselves to contact MLS head office and give them a heads-up as to the shenanigans.

Long story short, MLS ripped our FO a new one, FO contacted SG's and said sorry guys we fucked up and promise not to do it again, please tell the league everything is ok now.

LOL you can't make this shit up.

[king dave]

^ Jeremy would be correct here I think.
My thoughts here are/and will be disregared.
But I believe, as I have said before.
And I repeat it.
Supporters are and always will be more important than the team.
When you bunch begin to realize this?
A corner may be turned.
KD.

[Roogsy]

Without supporters there is no team. The problem with TFC is that the supporters act like we owe the team something when it's actually the other way around.

[Yeoman]

why do you come on these boards if you are against us?

simple question.
if the group disappoints you, what brings you here?

super simple and honest question.

because there's no other board with as many opinions being brought to the table at once.
i know for myself and of some others that wouldn't be here if it weren't for the member count on the registered side.

[Parkdale]

Supporters are and always will be more important than the team.



Without supporters there is no team. The problem with TFC is that the supporters act like we owe the team something when it's actually the other way around.

sorry, but this is ass-backwards.

We are there to support the team. When supporters start thinking that they are more important than the team they support, things are wong.

How many times in the past have people made the accusation that the supporters act like they deserve a big pat on the back for what they bring? This group has been accused of that lots of times, and now you guys are saying that's how it's supposed to be?

Are you really saying that supporters can act like the team owes them something? Because that attitude has always been jumped on in the past. Remember the 'We deserve Better' crisis from the past? Is that now something we can proudly demand?


jeeze... it's like people have been arguing in a big circle for so long that they forget where they started.

[Parkdale]

I don't see any registered users stopping anyone either as individuals or as a group from moving forward. If the group isn't moving forward you only have internally to look.


Many casual visitors to this website have stopped coming around because of what they see posted by some registered users. They want to get involved in supporting TFC with more organized effort, then take one look at the forum and think better of it. In fact, even some members have been turned off from being active because of what they see posted on this message board.

Many people have stated in this thread that is forum is the most active place to talk about TFC (which is why they still come here) so many people form their opinions about "what it means to support TFC" based on what they see online.

Much of what they see is posted by registered users, like yourself, so it's impossible to say that RU's don't have an influence over the way support grows for this team.

[Fort York Redcoat]

What banner session? Point me to one that's been held since the league season started?



There have been banner sessions since the season started.

[bones]

Without supporters there is no team. The problem with TFC is that the supporters act like we owe the team something when it's actually the other way around.

In this city I'd have to disagree with you here. Why? Because of the amount of corporate dollars and general fans. TFC could start winning and all the seats will be sold once again with or without supporters. As a supporter since day 1, they would be empty victories, much like watching Leaf wins from the platinum seats at the ACC.

I do understand where you're coming from Roogsy and I don't think it's off in other areas where it's the supporters that generate all the atmosphere which brings in the other fans to keep the team going financially. But I do feel that this market is different than SOME other markets.

[Roogsy]

There have been banner sessions since the season started.

Really? I looked through all the public non-member sections and found no reference to any sessions whatsoever. If there was in the member section, good for you, but that is not something anyone who is not a member can see and therefore know about and so it would be ridiculous for a member to chastise a non-member for not being there.

[Roogsy]

In this city I'd have to disagree with you here. Why? Because of the amount of corporate dollars and general fans. TFC could start winning and all the seats will be sold once again with or without supporters. As a supporter since day 1, they would be empty victories, much like watching Leaf wins from the platinum seats at the ACC.

I do understand where you're coming from Roogsy and I don't think it's off in other areas where it's the supporters that generate all the atmosphere which brings in the other fans to keep the team going financially. But I do feel that this market is different than SOME other markets.

When I say "there would not be a team" I was exaggerating a bit. There would be a TFC but nothing like we see before us today. The atmosphere brought by the supporters was the story for the first 3-4 years. It's what sustained this club while it fumbled about in it's own ineptitude. It's what people came to see. It certainly wasn't the losing team on the pitch with all the drama and infighting.

If the atmosphere wasn't there, the stadium would not have been sold out for 4 years and we wouldn't have a shiny new training facility, 3 DPs and maybe even grass (although that one might be debateable). That's what I meant. MLSE brought a team here without knowing they'd have this much success. But the additional investment has been because of the kind of support they have seen fans give this club. If that support had not been there, further investment would not have been made.

At the end of the day, support for this club has sagged in a significant way. And whatever the reason for it, action should be taken. If there is no action taken, then we're all just watching it like a slow car crash and the responsiblity for it is shared.

Again, taking it back to the original thread topic, we are so far away from what support has become in other MLS markets that it's almost embarrassing. And the chasm is growing. Complaining that someone is pointing it out is unproductive and basically shooting the messenger.

[Roogsy]

sorry, but this is ass-backwards.

We are there to support the team. When supporters start thinking that they are more important than the team they support, things are wong.

How many times in the past have people made the accusation that the supporters act like they deserve a big pat on the back for what they bring? This group has been accused of that lots of times, and now you guys are saying that's how it's supposed to be?

Are you really saying that supporters can act like the team owes them something? Because that attitude has always been jumped on in the past. Remember the 'We deserve Better' crisis from the past? Is that now something we can proudly demand?


jeeze... it's like people have been arguing in a big circle for so long that they forget where they started.


You are confusing being self-indulgent (which is what the "we deseve better" banner was) and recognition of reality. The reality is that without the fans, there is no club. That's why the supporters are more important than the team. But that doesn't mean you behave like self-indulgent children when you're upset. Measured and appropriate responses to certain situations remind team management that they would not be here without us and need to stop taking fans and supporters for granted. And if they recognize that and correct their ways, things can go back to more productive efforts.

But it doesn't change the reality that the team exists FOR us, not the other way around and that's why the somewhat clichéd but still true statement that "without supporters there is no team" is something I believe.

And I think you are mischaracterizing the events that surround the "we deserve better" event. That banner was surprised on us during a march that had a different purpose. That's why people got upset, at least in my case. I didn't necessarily want to be associated with a banner that I did not have a voice in saying. But the sentiment wasn't wrong. Fans did deserve better.

[Roogsy]

And Parky, if people don't support this club because of what I or someone else says on an internet board, I'd question their level of dedication to begin with. What I say doesn't impact game day. I stay away from this group by no longer going to Shoeless, giving up my tickets in 112 and not interfering with whatever events you guys put together. That's your business. If people don't come to those things that has nothing to do with Roogsy. If you can't get people to participate at that level, don't be blaming Roogsy, that's just weak and crediting me with way too much influence. It's basically scapegoating and ignoring the real problems.

[Yeoman]

Again, taking it back to the original thread topic, .

yeah lets, abe from the timbers give me reasons for bromance. screw you phonzo, abe is a better bromancer outside of game day!
it's a totally different feeling sitting in jeld wen. pretty sure there's a video out there stating i'd given a few inches on a certain accoutrament to have even half of what the timbers have.

[Whoop]

When you run into Section 8 be sure to thank them for the instance 2 years ago when they got wind that our FO was overstepping their authority with regard to SG's and without prompting took it upon themselves to contact MLS head office and give them a heads-up as to the shenanigans.

Long story short, MLS ripped our FO a new one, FO contacted SG's and said sorry guys we fucked up and promise not to do it again, please tell the league everything is ok now.

LOL you can't make this shit up.

Huh? This is the first I've heard of this. Not surprising really. I believe you but wonder why this was never mentioned before from anyone.

[Jack]

And Parky, if people don't support this club because of what I or someone else says on an internet board, I'd question their level of dedication to begin with. What I say doesn't impact game day. I stay away from this group by no longer going to Shoeless, giving up my tickets in 112 and not interfering with whatever events you guys put together. That's your business. If people don't come to those things that has nothing to do with Roogsy. If you can't get people to participate at that level, don't be blaming Roogsy, that's just weak and crediting me with way too much influence. It's basically scapegoating and ignoring the real problems.

A negative experience in their interaction with other supporters would certainly have an impact on someone's willingness to cooperate with other supporters on game day, wouldn't you think? Why should I join in with what someone is doing if they were a dick to me, whether in person or virtually?

[Wagner]

Roogs,
the jist of what a lot of us are saying is, please tone down the negativity towards the RPB.
you are a registered user, so you are a guest.
we (the RPB) value the contributions of all supporters, but enough is enough when it's always negative about the group.

Look at your post count, and look at the negative spin and indirect sniping your bring.
essentially, you're spamming negativity on our message board.

And there is a lot of proof/evidence that it is turning people off of the message board.
I am not going to share the PMs or the names of people that have said they come here less because you're barraging the message board with your negative spin.

You mentioned a few posts back that you're supporting through non-RPB means, how about focusing more on that, tell us about that, and being a little more positive.
Or at least tone down the "glory days" or "wasted potential" talk...it was just 2,3,4,5 years ago.

if you're going to give a criticism, how about also provide a possible solution??

Summing it up, please stop being a Negative Nelly on our Message Board.
you are an extremely bright individual, you know what you're doing.

[Roogsy]

Not sure where to start with this because as with your previous posts you're all over the place and ask many questions. Interestingly, you answer none yourself.

Regardless this thread naturally compares all SGs in MLS and asks the question "where does Toronto stand?". If you don't like the answer, blaming a scapegoat won't fix the problem.

[Jack]

I don't see where anyone is blaming a scapegoat. His request is pretty clear and independent of the subject matter of the thread. If you feel like you are being scapegoated, perhaps ask yourself why. From where I'm sitting, it looks like he's asked you to tone down your negative rhetoric.

The fact that there is a strongly negative element amongst the TFC support, a very divisive element who would rather criticize and divide than provide positive ideas and work together, is plainly evident. When people decide to move beyond that and really work together on things, we will be on the right track. Right now, there is not much to move our excitement forward, neither on the field nor in the front office. It's hard to get your passion up for singing and chanting when you feel taken advantage of by the suits. This means we should dig deep, do it for each other and unite, rather than take shots, go our own way in bitterness and divide.

Division amongst the support only helps the suits.

[denime]

Without supporters there is no team. The problem with TFC is that the supporters act like we owe the team something when it's actually the other way around.


When I say "there would not be a team" I was exaggerating a bit. There would be a TFC but nothing like we see before us today. The atmosphere brought by the supporters was the story for the first 3-4 years. It's what sustained this club while it fumbled about in it's own ineptitude. It's what people came to see. It certainly wasn't the losing team on the pitch with all the drama and infighting.

If the atmosphere wasn't there, the stadium would not have been sold out for 4 years and we wouldn't have a shiny new training facility, 3 DPs and maybe even grass (although that one might be debateable). That's what I meant. MLSE brought a team here without knowing they'd have this much success. But the additional investment has been because of the kind of support they have seen fans give this club. If that support had not been there, further investment would not have been made.

At the end of the day, support for this club has sagged in a significant way. And whatever the reason for it, action should be taken. If there is no action taken, then we're all just watching it like a slow car crash and the responsiblity for it is shared.

Again, taking it back to the original thread topic, we are so far away from what support has become in other MLS markets that it's almost embarrassing. And the chasm is growing. Complaining that someone is pointing it out is unproductive and basically shooting the messenger.


You are confusing being self-indulgent (which is what the "we deseve better" banner was) and recognition of reality. The reality is that without the fans, there is no club. That's why the supporters are more important than the team. But that doesn't mean you behave like self-indulgent children when you're upset. Measured and appropriate responses to certain situations remind team management that they would not be here without us and need to stop taking fans and supporters for granted. And if they recognize that and correct their ways, things can go back to more productive efforts.

But it doesn't change the reality that the team exists FOR us, not the other way around and that's why the somewhat clichéd but still true statement that "without supporters there is no team" is something I believe.

And I think you are mischaracterizing the events that surround the "we deserve better" event. That banner was surprised on us during a march that had a different purpose. That's why people got upset, at least in my case. I didn't necessarily want to be associated with a banner that I did not have a voice in saying. But the sentiment wasn't wrong. Fans did deserve better.

Are you ever get tired of moving the goal posts?:Yawn:

[jazzy]

Not necessarily the case. Go look at the thread I posted a few years ago called "Ultras Report 2009" (i think?). Its posted in the members section.

Its about a Russian Ultras group, and they have the exact same problems as RPB did/does. And part of their annual activities is charity. Some people thought it was an interesting read, others chose to criticize and say things like "We're not like them" (which made me laugh at the time, and still does).

Someone with access should bump it.

interesting.......:http://fratria.org/english/fratria_resume_2009/

surprise so many flares...lol....Almo who knew?

[jazzy]

I skimmed through the entire thread hoping to find strategy and plans for the future... Seems like we are still stuck on the past.

Passion moves you forward

Hate and Anger keeps you looking back

well said

[Whoop]

Has nothing to do with flares. Just a good account of what groups go through.

[jazzy]

it's a JOKE..pity....I WAS enjoying the passion in ALL the voices, for a change... thanx for stating the obvious

[Chris Wren]

As a guest I would say my opinions and suggestions will always be ignored. Until people on this board are more willing to embrace the masses all around them, and step outside the conventional footie supporter box, the scope of ideas will be extremely limited.. I for one am just bored with going through the motions and singing the same songs as every other MLS team (Maple Leaf Forever anyone? Anyone?......Beuler?) I am very loud regarding the game itself, as are many at BMO. This does not make me less of a supporter or for a bad environment. Change your expectations, or change how you want to accomplish your goals. I'm tired of reading about the constant disappointment in fellow supporters or the atmosphere at BMO. Talk of making this board for members only will be the end of relevance for it.

[Alonso]

Is it not ironic that one of the clubs with the worst history of helping supporter culture (the Whitecaps) are putting out videos about supporters? That's jokes man. :lol:

SOBs was a good place to start though. Good on them.

I can't wait for the Toronto episode to come out. Such promise wasted...



This is the most painful thing... I don't think anyone doubts that if it was nurtured instead of nuetered, we could have what Seattle and Portland have as far as supporters culture goes.

It is dying a slow death though if things don't change to support the supporters groups and this type of atmosphere. It really separates soccer/football from the other sports.

[Alonso]

The Ultras are entertaining. Thanks for posting. Do you think the coverage of TFC's will be fair? I figure they are pretty bitter.


If they use footage from this year, which at any given point is weak, then no. Also, if they don't focus on what was vs what is, definitely not. I mean our away support in Columbus was probably the pinnacle simply because we were all able to be in one section together which we aren't able to do in our own stadium. (plus they were the early and passionate years before the bitterness towards the ownership)

[Alonso]

The timbers army are fantastic aren't they? They truly do everything a supporters group should. I heard one story where they had some sort of run in with their FO over tickets or something rather. Anyways, in short, the timbers army boycotted the entire season. and because this was before they had renovated there stadium, the stadium fences were small enough so all of the timbers army could watch every game from ladders outside the stadium...

A WHOLE SEASON. ON A LADDER.


Balls!

[Alonso]

Actually RPB did not tell anyone not to sing. That initative was taken by NEE and many RPB followed suit because we agreed.

For all the complaints on this board about "protest", I only recall 2 actual protests by supporters. The 1st was the demonstration at Gate 4 by about 100 fans and the 2nd was the green/silent protest of 2010, and yes I participated in both of them (for those who keep asking me "what do you do".)

There has never really been anything since. Despite our shockingly poor record. Which always makes me chuckle when I hear complaints about "all these protests". 2 protests in 6 years with a club that has this kind of track record is extremely forgiving.

I agree and if the will is there to protest against the three stooges from the leadership of this group I would follow in a heart beat.

[Alonso]

I see a lot of opinions, suggestions and complaints time in and time out surrounding our clubs supporter culture on the current state, on how we compare to other club supporters groups/sections and what we should look like or be.

I am not to sure what has been done historically by the numerous supporter groups or what is in the pipelines, however to state the obvious, I believe we need to take a step back and say to ourselves where do want to be and what steps do we have to take collectively to get there. There will be obstacles within and between the other supporter groups as well as with MLSE, however that is a given. Hypothetically, if we wanted to have a similar situation like that of Philadelphia in terms of a unified supporters section with designated supporter cards and being self monitored, how do we accomplish that, what does the framework look like to achieve this end result? .

There should be no reason why we can not achieve what currently Portland has in terms of support and a unified supporters section "regardless" of our clubs performance for the past 6 seasons. I use Portland in the ladder as I am confident that the majority of the TFC supporters would like to be in the similar environment of what they currently have. So let’s ask ourselves the question, what is being done as we speak to get where want to be and do we know what that looks like?

This.

I fail to see any vision.

[bigredone]

The CCL games seemed pretty good, correct me if I'm wrong. Let's just hope the videos producers show the respect they should to a team that gave them a whippin'. Let us also hope this video motivates the creativity of a Pro-TFC film maker.

[toronto toronto]

I think there is some confusion here Alonzo, this post was not attended to state my vision rather a perspective of what I am seeing. However, since you called me out, what is your vision, what are you currently doing about it right now "collectively" to acheive it?


This.

I fail to see any vision.

[Shakes McQueen]

He didn't "call you out". He was agreeing with you.

- Scott

[toronto toronto]

My appologies Alonzo.

He didn't "call you out". He was agreeing with you.

- Scott

[Pigfynn]

Wow guys.

I think this thread has run it's retarded course.

[Yohan]

Yeah. Im not posting any more of this stuff lol

[GhostKiller]

I'll be obvious here.

A part of the problem (not the whole problem) is the south "supporters" end is filled with people who either want the cheapest ticket or want to be close to the supporters culture without contributing. As long time hard core fan/supporter numbers fall (for obvious reasons), the number of casuals move in who don't know songs/ don't want to be one of 5 people singing. It weakens the South Stands. There is nothing wrong with casual fans, they are what fill stadiums around the world and are what we want to attract at this point in our clubs life.

We need a strong supporters section though and it needs to be the size of the entire south stand. Its good for us, the team, the club and the fans that come out every week new or old. We all know its not possible now for 2 reasons. 1) Supporters groups don't have control over the supporters section 2) TFC's results have been shit

Given the clubs form and the FO we have, its fuckin miraculous so many of you come out to sing and bounce. Its down to a skeleton crew right now for supporters. Thats where we are and I think its a pretty strong god damn skeleton crew. Eventually results will change (I think) and ALL the SGs should be ready when it does. But with the current structure of the South End, there is only so much that can be done... MLSE jacks up tickets, people start looking for the cheapest. That lands them in the South. If there isn't a way to convert them, even for 90 mins into loud, raging, foaming at the mouth TFC supporters then we need control over our end.

[GhostKiller]

One more note... All fans are batter and bruised from this club now. There is almost jack shit to be consistently excited about. But we need the fight and piss back in it. When TO SGs were cock of the walk in its earlier years is the attitude of the fans I loved. Last place in the league? fuck it we are still the best. No one is to be blamed for their drained optimism. The realists have called this team what it is a while back. Cool. Its just the skeleton crew now. The ones who support this club are most likely delusional so why not go full retard and get some of that fuckin attitude back. Fuck everyone, fuck portland, phili and seattle. Fuck the moon fuck the sun and fuck 1-9. We have the most hard core fans because no other SG group can take what we have been through.

[ManUtd4ever]

Yeah, I think anyone who has followed MLS since the inception of TFC can attest to the patient, resilient nature of our fan base.

[bigredone]

I said it once and think it fits here. Much of our patients and resilience is due simply to the love of the game.

[__wowza]

Yeah, I think anyone who has followed MLS since the inception of TFC can attest to the patient, resilient nature of our fan base.

the same can't be said about the casuals looking for cheap seats. i actually heard someone tell pete that he was in their seat during the philly match.. i would've loved to have heard him go to security if pete hadn't moved. that would've been a fun exchange. hope the new guy enjoyed looking at my package the entire game while i was on the capo stand.

[RedRum]

Roogs,
you are a registered user, so you are a guest.

... You mentioned a few posts back that you're supporting through non-RPB means, how about focusing more on that, tell us about that.


That's really condescending man. Just because he is no longer a member doesn't make him any less a supporter. Don't know him other than a quick nod on match day but over the years I saw him putting in his time on the drum to the detriment of not being able to watch the game and participating with passion in 112. Just this year he made a sizeable contribution for the banners made for the CCL match against LA... his heart is in the right place 100%, we would do well to have more like him.




if you're going to give a criticism, how about also provide a possible solution??



He offers solutions all the time. Try listening.


I don't see where anyone is blaming a scapegoat. His request is pretty clear and independent of the subject matter of the thread. If you feel like you are being scapegoated, perhaps ask yourself why. From where I'm sitting, it looks like he's asked you to tone down your negative rhetoric.

The fact that there is a strongly negative element amongst the TFC support, a very divisive element who would rather criticize and divide than provide positive ideas and work together, is plainly evident. When people decide to move beyond that and really work together on things, we will be on the right track. Right now, there is not much to move our excitement forward, neither on the field nor in the front office. It's hard to get your passion up for singing and chanting when you feel taken advantage of by the suits. This means we should dig deep, do it for each other and unite, rather than take shots, go our own way in bitterness and divide.

Division amongst the support only helps the suits.

Then stand the fuck up and do something about it.

[kaos197O]

I don't see where anyone is blaming a scapegoat. His request is pretty clear and independent of the subject matter of the thread. If you feel like you are being scapegoated, perhaps ask yourself why. From where I'm sitting, it looks like he's asked you to tone down your negative rhetoric.

The fact that there is a strongly negative element amongst the TFC support, a very divisive element who would rather criticize and divide than provide positive ideas and work together, is plainly evident. When people decide to move beyond that and really work together on things, we will be on the right track. Right now, there is not much to move our excitement forward, neither on the field nor in the front office. It's hard to get your passion up for singing and chanting when you feel taken advantage of by the suits. This means we should dig deep, do it for each other and unite, rather than take shots, go our own way in bitterness and divide.

Division amongst the support only helps the suits.

This is great stuff in theory.

I have never been a member of RPB but have contributed to many of their efforts financially and via protests. I've stood alongside members during matches and given 100% on game day without fail. I have also put forth ideas on this very forum and to other RPB members in person. On the forum, I am generally ignored and it's why I haven't posted for a long while now. There is a brotherhood here and if you're not a part of it, you seem to be wasting your breath. Then you have members say stuff like "why don't you join if you want to have a say?" This group does not feel inclusive from an outsiders perspective and lacks both leadership and direction from what I know from the members that I do know in it. In the discussions I have had in person with some of the members I know, I am told that the group as whole moves forward with new ideas very slowly as it seems not to have a clear and definitive direction. Not only do they move slowly they are easy to give up on some ideas. I have shared ideas with members in person, only to have them tell me "we tried that ONCE but it didn't work out so....... it's in the past". If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again. Building outstanding support as a group doesn't mean giving up if it doesn't work out the first, or second or third time. The goal should always be to succeed in delivering results no matter how long it takes. That requires organization, dedication, direction and cohesion.

I am a hardcore TFC supporter and have done the research and from what I've seen this group is divided internally and lacks clear and definitive direction which is the sole reason I never joined, not the perceived negativity that sometimes rears itself in posts by registered users.

Back on topic, Portland looks great. Gotta give props there and as others have mentioned much could be learned from the boys in Chicago too.

[james]

well if we want the support Portland has (which i am guessing 95% of the supporters here would want) we can not reach that goal until we try to make changes such as the supporters having more control of ticket sales, general admission supporters section, lower supporter prices, less strict rules on flags/banners, have the front office working more with supporters rather then against each other. Changing these things is the only way our support will go forward the way would like the group to go forward. How can we do this I am not sure, but we would need everyone to come up with some ideas and try to achieve these goals!

[Alonso]

My appologies Alonzo.


No worries man, I've misunderstood others many times and unfortunately i didn't realize it a few times and jump to conclusions as well.... it happens.

As to the rest of your comment pm me if you really want to know and I'd be glad to discuss it with you.