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KGH
05-25-2012, 01:25 PM
Team
Last
First
Position
Base Salary
Guaranteed


TFC
Frings
Torsten
M
2,000,000
2,413,666


TFC
de Guzman
Julian
M
1,863,996
1,910,746


TFC
Koevermans
Danny
F
1,150,000
1,563,323


TFC
Eckersley
Richard
D
210,000
390,000


TOR
Aceval
Miguel
D
150,000
199,086


TFC
Frei
Stefan
GK
120,000
175,000


TFC
Avila
Eric
M
125,000
158,000


TFC
Hall
Jeremy
M
100,000
149,000


TFC
Johnson
Ryan
M
137,813
137,813


TFC
Cann
Adrian
D
126,000
134,750


TFC
Soolsma
Nick
M-F
110,000
110,000


TFC
Harden
Ty
D
90,000
98,666


TFC
Dunfield
Terry
M
86,000
86,000


TOR
Silva
Luis
M
44,000
79,000


TOR
Lambe
Reggie
M
60,000
62,500


TOR
Maund
Aaron
D
44,000
59,000


TFC
Williams
Dicoy
D
52,500
52,500


TFC
Plata
Joao
F
50,000
50,000


TFC
Henry
Doneil
D
44,100
45,100


TFC
Lindsay
Nicholas
F
44,100
45,100


TFC
Kocic
Milos
GK
44,100
44,100


TFC
Cordon
Oscar
M
44,000
44,000


TFC
Makubuya
Keith
F
44,000
44,000


TFC
Morgan
Ashtone
D
44,000
44,000


TFC
Stinson
Matthew
M
44,000
44,000


TOR
Emory
Logan
D
44,000
44,000


TOR
Burgos
Efrain
M
33,750
33,750


TOR
Roberts
Quillan
GK
33,750
33,750

KGH
05-25-2012, 01:26 PM
Some pretty interesting numbers there:

1) Ecks at $390
2) Plata at $50k
3) Aceval at $150k?????

Furtado91
05-25-2012, 01:27 PM
man Kocic barely gets paid and hes a great player.

brad
05-25-2012, 01:29 PM
Can't believe Plata signed for $50k...

TFC07
05-25-2012, 01:30 PM
Looking at JDG salary makes me sick. He makes more than Danny K and close to what Frings make.

brad
05-25-2012, 01:30 PM
Which number counts against the cap?

TFC07
05-25-2012, 01:31 PM
Which number counts against the cap?

first one

ryan
05-25-2012, 01:32 PM
Aceval makes 200K? :S

Pigfynn
05-25-2012, 01:33 PM
That Kocic number is gross.

Poor guy, that's terrible.

KGH
05-25-2012, 01:35 PM
1st column is Base 2nd column is 2012 Guaranteed. I'm pretty sure the second column is what hits the salary cap (with the exception of the 3 DP's)

TFC07
05-25-2012, 01:36 PM
Aceval makes 200K? :S

We need to get rid of him in off-season. There's no way Ecks is worth that much money.

MartinUtd
05-25-2012, 01:42 PM
We got Lambe pretty cheap. As far as Cann, Dunfield, Harden, Lindsay & Aceval are concerned... they can all be loaned to NASL teams for peanuts if it means we can bring in a CB that's worth $250k and have another $250k of cap room left for depth.

Nuvinho
05-25-2012, 01:43 PM
Who are our GAs?

mastermixer
05-25-2012, 01:45 PM
2011: Ecks was making 90k and Plata 42k.

KGH
05-25-2012, 01:47 PM
Who are our GAs?

We have none

Nuvinho
05-25-2012, 01:49 PM
Total Base Salary = $2,930,113
Total Guarantee Salary = $3,368,116.39

* $335K per DP, and no GAs, includes all spots (not just top 20).

Ben - D.O.W.
05-25-2012, 01:50 PM
Isn't it $335k?

Ageroo
05-25-2012, 01:51 PM
Looking at JDG salary makes me sick. He makes more than Danny K and close to what Frings make.

But we always knew what his salary was....no real surprise there. I am a little shocked at the Aceval and Ecks....a little hefty for both. Lower their wages and we could probably have gotten another CB.

Anyone know what kind of Allocation money we get for winning the Canadian Championship.....I believe all teams qualifying for group stages gets extra cash.

Nuvinho
05-25-2012, 01:52 PM
Isn't it $335k?

my bad, changing it!

bigredone
05-25-2012, 01:53 PM
As a security guard I must say this is so shameful. How can I possibly make more than some of our boys. And how does Aceval make more than me.

Koevs, Frings, Soolsma, Avila, Johnson, and Frei make sense. Not sure how I feel about Cann, Hall and Ecks.

We gotta pay Henry more too!

Lucky Strike
05-25-2012, 01:53 PM
2011: Ecks was making 90k and Plata 42k.


I believe Burnley covered most of his wage while on loan. I think he was on 10k a week which translates to 520k in North American parlance. We know we was willing to take a cut to get regular playing time, but 520k is a lot to come down from in the context of typical MLS salaries.

Overall, some good bargains and others, not so much (cough, JDG). But at least this explains how we were able to trade for Hall and Avila from Dallas without having to give up much in return. They are on fairly high salaries and while they are pretty decent players from what we've seen, Dallas may have felt they can get a bigger bang for their buck with others.

Phil
05-25-2012, 01:54 PM
2011: Ecks was making 90k and Plata 42k.

And both players were on laon. Now they are ours.

I am fine with most of this, but there are some notable overpaid players and some very underpaid guys. I am disgusted at the Kocic salary.

SirBobSaget
05-25-2012, 01:56 PM
Total Base Salary = $2,975,113
Total Guarantee Salary = $3,413,116.39

* $350K per DP, and no GAs


Only the top 20 count vs cap right?

Total Base Salary = $2,643,613
Total Guarantee Salary = $3,081,516.39

Total Wages= $8,250,852.39

The salary Cap is 2.810 million so TFC is not too far above. Probably blew all allocation money on Plata transfer though.

Nuvinho
05-25-2012, 01:57 PM
Only the top 20 count vs cap right?

Total Base Salary = $2,643,613
Total Guarantee Salary = $3,081,516.39

Total Wages= $8,250,852.39

The salary Cap is 2.810 million so TFC is not too far above. Probably blew all allocation money on Plata transfer though.






sorry about that, I just realized that the top 20 count.

DangerRed
05-25-2012, 01:58 PM
What's scary about these numbers is how way way off they are in terms of compensating quality players. It goes both ways, too, which is extra strange: some guys who are shit are getting WAY too much money to justify the cost and others who are excellent (relatively speaking, of course) are getting vastly underpaid. I wonder, but am too lazy to check, whether the same phenomenon holds true at other clubs.

Also: Reggie Lambe for $60K or so? A steal.

MartinUtd
05-25-2012, 01:58 PM
Kocic will get get a raise. Keep in mind he was supposed to be Frei's back up this year (even if they were splitting time). He'll get more next year.. as I'm sure a few of the TFCA grads will.

Canary10
05-25-2012, 02:00 PM
Trade in Aceval and Harden for a quality CB.

denime
05-25-2012, 02:01 PM
We need to get rid of him in off-season. There's no way Ecks is worth that much money.
His salary in UK was 500K,so he actually took a pay cut.

Ageroo
05-25-2012, 02:01 PM
Trade in Aceval and Harden for a quality CB.

Aceval is going nowhere considering his form....and even moreso because of that eyesore of a salary.

Oldtimer
05-25-2012, 02:11 PM
Frings is worth every penny he is getting paid.

JDG should buy Kocic a Ferrari to even things out a bit. :D

SirBobSaget
05-25-2012, 02:15 PM
my bad, changing it!

No you were right first time http://www.mlssoccer.com/2012-mls-roster-rules



The maximum budget charge for a single player is $350,000.*

A Designated Player over the age of 23 counts as $350,000 against the club’s salary budget

A Designated Player 20 years old or younger** (referred to as Young Designated Players or Young DPs) to counts as $150,000 against the club’s salary budget

A Designated Player 21-23 years old** counts as $200,000 against the club’s salary budget.



Players occupying roster spots 21-30 do not count against the club’s salary budget, and are referred to collectively as the club’s Off-Budget Players (maximum of 10 per team).

All Generation adidas players are Off-Budget players.

Clubs may elect to leave up to two of these roster spots (25-30) vacant and use $35,000 for each empty spot as allocation money.

Clubs may sign up to two Homegrown Players contracts above the minimum salary and similar to Generation adidas player contract amounts.



The Homegrown Player clause is interesting one, how long does a player remain with that status? e.g. if Henry remains with club 10 years from now and earns 1,000,000$ is that amount not against cap?

SirBobSaget
05-25-2012, 02:19 PM
For fun, aid a quick tally for LA Galaxy, they're at $3,344,238.74

thefreestyla
05-25-2012, 02:21 PM
No you were right first time http://www.mlssoccer.com/2012-mls-roster-rules



The maximum budget charge for a single player is $350,000.*

A Designated Player over the age of 23 counts as $350,000 against the club’s salary budget

A Designated Player 20 years old or younger** (referred to as Young Designated Players or Young DPs) to counts as $150,000 against the club’s salary budget

A Designated Player 21-23 years old** counts as $200,000 against the club’s salary budget.



Players occupying roster spots 21-30 do not count against the club’s salary budget, and are referred to collectively as the club’s Off-Budget Players (maximum of 10 per team).

All Generation adidas players are Off-Budget players.

Clubs may elect to leave up to two of these roster spots (25-30) vacant and use $35,000 for each empty spot as allocation money.

Clubs may sign up to two Homegrown Players contracts above the minimum salary and similar to Generation adidas player contract amounts.



The Homegrown Player clause is interesting one, how long does a player remain with that status? e.g. if Henry remains with club 10 years from now and earns 1,000,000$ is that amount not against cap?
No. Only a players first contract can be "homegrown".


(F)HOMEGROWN PLAYER SIGNINGS
A club may sign a player to his first professional contract without subjecting him to the MLS SuperDraft if the player has trained for at least one year in the club’s youth development program and has met the League’s Homegrown Player criteria. Players joining MLS through this mechanism are known as Homegrown Players.

There is no limit to the number of Homegrown Players a club may sign in a given year.

Island Man
05-25-2012, 02:28 PM
Outside of Marquez, Eckersley is the highest paid defender in MLS at 390K (DeMerit 350k, Pearce 300k, Wynne 330k, Marshall 340k)

Canary10
05-25-2012, 02:30 PM
Unfortunately I think Eckersley was signed to placate the fans rather than anything that made business or soccer sense.

brad
05-25-2012, 02:31 PM
Outside of Marquez, Eckersley is the highest paid defender in MLS at 390K (DeMerit 350k, Pearce 300k, Wynne 330k, Marshall 340k)

Just read that. Yikes.

Stouffville_RPB
05-25-2012, 02:33 PM
I'm ok with most of the salaries.

-JDG is overpaid by a tonne (but we all knew that before).
-If Aceval had turned out to be the CB we had all hoped no one would have a problem.
-For the amount of minutes Harden usually logs for us 90k really isn't that bad.
-Ecks makes a lot for fullback in a league with such a small salary cap (it's more the cap I have an issue with here, outside of a cap Ecks is worth that much)
-Jeremy Hall makes 6 digits and so far he's been a depth player at what one could argue is our strongest position (fullback).
-If and when Dicoy comes back to the player he was before the injury Harden or Aceval would probably be released.
-Dunfield is in the same boat as Harden. For the minutes he logs the compensation is fair.
-Kocic, Lambe, the Academy graduates and draft picks are steals.

Someone pointed it out already but looking at the list our top contributors are underpaid while underachievers are overpaid.

Island Man
05-25-2012, 02:33 PM
Just read that. Yikes.

Yep, I would take any of them over Ecks.

Stouffville_RPB
05-25-2012, 02:35 PM
Unfortunately I think Eckersley was signed to placate the fans rather than anything that made business or soccer sense.

I disagree. Eckersley has been the best defender TFC have ever had CB or FB (Morgan is closing the gap quickly though). I think FO saw that and did what they could to bring him back.

Canary10
05-25-2012, 02:37 PM
I disagree. Eckersley has been the best defender TFC have ever had CB or FB (Morgan is closing the gap quickly though). I think FO saw that and did what they could to bring him back.

I really don't agree with that, although saying he's the best defender we've ever had isn't a particularly high bar. Regardless, the money is too much for what we get and for what other teams get.

joeyjones
05-25-2012, 02:41 PM
I disagree. Eckersley has been the best defender TFC have ever had CB or FB (Morgan is closing the gap quickly though). I think FO saw that and did what they could to bring him back.

imo, the FO saw how popular Ecks and Plata were and wanted them signed....yes they showed well last year, and we all wanted them back...but not at the price it is costing TFC..

if the Plata transfer fee amount is true (500K) or even close, we def overpaid for both...i put that on the 3 stooges

Canary10
05-25-2012, 02:45 PM
imo, the FO saw how popular Ecks and Plata were and wanted them signed....yes they showed well last year, and we all wanted them back...but not at the price it is costing TFC..

if the Plata transfer fee amount is true (500K) or even close, we def overpaid for both...i put that on the 3 stooges

I totally agree. At my town hall last fall, they were told so many times that we need to sign Eckersley I wouldn't be able to count it on one hand. They were feeling that pressure. I don't think he's a bad player - if he could ever play smarter, he'd be a very good player. But second highest in MLS is too much. The opportunity cost of that is huge too.

Auzzy
05-25-2012, 03:01 PM
Hey at least JDG isn't the highest-paid player any more!

Other than Eckersley, I'm not really surprised about this list. And even for Ecks, not that surprising given his previous salary that we knew about -- but still a problem of course. Aceval is about what I expected, but of course not a good deal considering how he turned out.

We've also got some great bargains. And we need better South-American scouting.

PopePouri
05-25-2012, 03:04 PM
This is why MLS annoys me.

1) Making salaries public...
2) ...and then seeing so many of them are shitty ones. The league has one of the highest average football attendances, has a brand new TV deal with NBC, yet none of that money is going to the players.

BayernTFC
05-25-2012, 03:04 PM
Wow! 5 defenders on TFC have combined salaries nearing $1 million:

(Richard Eckersley $390 000, Miguel Aceval $199 086, Jeremy Hall $149 000, Adrian Cann $134 750 and Ty Harden $98 666)

That's $971 502 being charged against the salary cap with only 2 of those players currently starting.


The other 2 starters:

(Doneil Henry $45 100 and Ashtone Morgan $44 000)

Do they even count against the salary cap?

Auzzy
05-25-2012, 03:05 PM
I don't think Lindsay (20th on this list) counts against the cap, if he was listed as injured for the season and before the season started.

__wowza
05-25-2012, 03:08 PM
I'm ok with most of the salaries.
-For the amount of minutes Harden usually logs for us 90k really isn't that bad.
-Ecks makes a lot for fullback in a league with such a small salary cap (it's more the cap I have an issue with here, outside of a cap Ecks is worth that much)
-Dunfield is in the same boat as Harden. For the minutes he logs the compensation is fair.
-Kocic, Lambe, the Academy graduates and draft picks are steals.


i agree with a few of these but ive edited it down to the ones i dont. harden was called on as a backup, he was considered that as players returning from injury have since replaced him. he should've been getting paid as depth. same for dunfield. kocic is in the same boat, i think he's great, but frei would be starting in front of him. we're not paying him to be our starting keeper because he isn't our starting keeper.


Outside of Marquez, Eckersley is the highest paid defender in MLS at 390K (DeMerit 350k, Pearce 300k, Wynne 330k, Marshall 340k)

ugh. ecks has been having a bad season and the loses don't help his temper at all. i think he was signed under the pretense that we'd be paying him to perform like he last season. don't get me wrong, he's still a good fullback, but at that price i'd expect him to be paid that much if he was at the form he was at last year. realistically (and without injury) we could run this team like the spurs. you have a starting XI with very few changes, but unfortunately the travel is too great and the league is too physical. id love if this team was run like the jays, giving a player the week off on rotating weeks to curb fatigue, but i don't think we have the tactical depth for that yet.


Unfortunately I think Eckersley was signed to placate the fans rather than anything that made business or soccer sense.

kinda like how they hired JDG to respond to both our calls for a canadian born player AND dp? fans know more about the club than anyone, but we're also not in charge of their paycheques. you'd be hard up to find a club in the league who'd pick him up at that wage.

__wowza
05-25-2012, 03:08 PM
also, MOD NOTE:
what're everyones thoughts on merging this with bdkings current salary cap thread?

MartinUtd
05-25-2012, 03:09 PM
For all the Eckersley detractors out there, I'd focus on the wages that are NOT performing before shitting all over his contract. Sure $210k is steep, but he is a proven defender. That's something we've had a hard time coming by. The players I listed earlier are the ones we need to purge.

DangerRed
05-25-2012, 03:10 PM
Just saw frings near king and bay with a bleached blonde lady friend.

Maybe he's off to see a money manager!

MartinUtd
05-25-2012, 03:10 PM
also, MOD NOTE:
what're everyones thoughts on merging this with bdkings current salary cap thread?

Don't do it.

If you have idle hands please fragment the in-season player movement thread on a per player basis.

BayernTFC
05-25-2012, 03:10 PM
Why are Silva and Maund's guaranteed salaries higher? Are 1st round MLS draft picks automatically given extra?

Canary10
05-25-2012, 03:17 PM
It's kind of interesting when this list comes out. It's almost like the sunshine list for public sector employees, except for soccer fans.

burlington Red
05-25-2012, 03:22 PM
Dont' agree with that. Ecks is a quality defender, I'd take him over all them, his performance when he came on against Vancouver was as good a performance by a defender we have had in years. His wages are a tad high perhaps, but I wouldn't begrudge it. He is a quality right back, can't be easy when the centre of defence has been so poor this year and with so many different players tried out at CB it can't be easy to build chemistry. It was us the supporters who really made it known we wanted him after last season. Future captain material on a permanent basis.Gotta pay for quality, part of our problem is we are buying decent money to quite a few distinctly below average players.

BayernTFC
05-25-2012, 03:27 PM
It's kind of interesting when this list comes out.
I believe so too. I view it as a window into TFC management's decision making. How are they managing the salary cap? Has management been making the right choices?

Yohan
05-25-2012, 03:31 PM
then there is Mtl getting two ex Serie A defenders for 180k base salary

Roogsy
05-25-2012, 03:36 PM
I am right there with you guys. Some of these figures are shocking.

rocker
05-25-2012, 04:03 PM
This is why MLS annoys me.

1) Making salaries public...
2) ...and then seeing so many of them are shitty ones. The league has one of the highest average football attendances, has a brand new TV deal with NBC, yet none of that money is going to the players.

Well, I'm sure MLS wouldn't want to the salaries released at all. Whenever there's a signing the team never releases details.
But the union releases it to make people aware.

Also, the minimums are collectively bargained numbers. If the players don't like it, they should hold out for more next time the contract is up. Nonetheless, minimums have gone up a lot since 2007. There were guys on 2007 teams making $12,900.

The thing the union knows: if the cap goes up significantly, many of its members at the back end will be out of jobs completely.

Oranje
05-25-2012, 04:04 PM
True, it is shocking how much Ecks is getting paid but he is only 23. I look at it as an investment in the future as he is still improving and will hopefully be entering his prime in a TFC kit as he has a lot of potential in this league with his tenacity, athleticism and physicality. It’s not like the 400k is being put towards a 30 something who will be out of here in a couple years. I would be interested in what his contract length is.

T-boy
05-25-2012, 04:13 PM
I totally agree. At my town hall last fall, they were told so many times that we need to sign Eckersley I wouldn't be able to count it on one hand. They were feeling that pressure. I don't think he's a bad player - if he could ever play smarter, he'd be a very good player. But second highest in MLS is too much. The opportunity cost of that is huge too.

TFC signed Plata and Eckersley as they were both our best players last season, consistently! I don't think its down to fan pressure! Anybody could see that those two players were the stand out players last season! It made total sense to want to sign both of them!

Eckersley is for sure the best overall defender TFC have ever had. He's got the best technical ability, and is the best tackler we have had at the club. Plus, at 22, he's still got a big future ahead of himself in the game. It made total sense, and still does, to try and sign the guy, no matter how much $ we have to pay him.

Eckersley turned the game on Wednesday, his movement going down the right changed the game! I'd say Eck's has repaid his worth this season already!

Pookie
05-25-2012, 04:15 PM
Base counts against cap. Good news is $200k in wiggle room and that's without the magic allocation money being factored in.

Auzzy
05-25-2012, 04:16 PM
then there is Mtl getting two ex Serie A defenders for 180k base salary

Wow. Now one could suggest that Saputo family connections are greasing some wheels back in Italy, but that would be pure conjecture, and carry a risk of a defamation lawsuit.

Auzzy
05-25-2012, 04:17 PM
Base counts against cap. Good news is $200k in wiggle room and that's without the magic allocation money being factored in.

Ha, I've seen that argued both ways (base or guaranteed) so many times, but I have no idea.

Auzzy
05-25-2012, 04:22 PM
Outside of Marquez, Eckersley is the highest paid defender in MLS at 390K (DeMerit 350k, Pearce 300k, Wynne 330k, Marshall 340k)

Wow, another amazing & scary stat. Did you figure that out yourself? Just wondering if you're reading Kurtis Larson's Twitter, or if he's reading this board...

From about 1 hour ago:


Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN
(https://twitter.com/#!/KurtLarSUN)Outside of Marquez, Eckersley is the highest paid defender in MLS at 390K (DeMerit 350k, Pearce 300k, Wynne 330k, Marshall 340k)#TFC (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC)

As someone noted in the follow-up to that tweet, three of these top-five $ defenders have links to TFC, and 4 play in Canada... hmmm.....

And yes as I look at this list more, I'm shocked about a few numbers, both on the high & the low side.

PopePouri
05-25-2012, 04:23 PM
Well, I'm sure MLS wouldn't want to the salaries released at all. Whenever there's a signing the team never releases details.
But the union releases it to make people aware.

Also, the minimums are collectively bargained numbers. If the players don't like it, they should hold out for more next time the contract is up. Nonetheless, minimums have gone up a lot since 2007. There were guys on 2007 teams making $12,900.

The thing the union knows: if the cap goes up significantly, many of its members at the back end will be out of jobs completely.

That doesn't change the fact that it's still messed up and that there's hardly any trickle down from ownership. With MLS putting more emphasis on academies and many academy products forgoing their college education, players need more compensation. They have hit the big time playing in front of 15000-20000 people therefore pay them for it.

nfitz
05-25-2012, 04:34 PM
Base counts against cap. Good news is $200k in wiggle room and that's without the magic allocation money being factored in.As we've now qualified for the Group stage of the Champions League, we'll be qualifying for more allocation money, presuming they haven't changed the rules again.

ensco
05-25-2012, 04:39 PM
Frings is worth every penny he is getting paid.


OK I waited an hour mulling this one over, but it has to be said (and I love Frings) ....

Frings is severely overpaid. For all his great passing and vision, he is injury prone, and really slow.

I have been wondering if any other team would take him on - after all, he is a guy that could help put a contender over the top, as a sub. But that was before I saw this, I thought he made half of what he actually makes. He is untradeable at this salary level.

Nestease
05-25-2012, 05:23 PM
I already hinted on Plata's salary 3 weeks ago when everyone was shitting on him with his imaginary 100+ salary:


I think some of you think this guy is making 100+ this season, because he is not. Even after his new contract, he is still one of the lowest paid players on this team. It will all come out when the salaries are disclosed.

Now it doesn't look like they had to disclose Caicedo's salary because it would have probably been the most interesting. He was set to be the highest paid player on this team who wasn't a DP (Base salary). That's probably why they weren't sad to see him go after spending some weeks here.

BayernTFC
05-25-2012, 05:26 PM
OK I waited an hour mulling this one over, but it has to be said (and I love Frings) ....

Frings is severely overpaid. For all his great passing and vision, he is injury prone, and really slow.

I have been wondering if any other team would take him on - after all, he is a guy that could help put a contender over the top, as a sub. But that was before I saw this, I thought he made half of what he actually makes. He is untradeable at this salary level.
I couldn't disagree with this more. If there is any player on TFC whose absence is noticed most, it's Torsten Frings. Torsten is the consummate professional, an excellent example to others and a great leader on the pitch. He's laid it all on the line for us time and time again. He didn't take time off or pack it in for our little Canadian Championship. Torsten played hurt and he played with purpose. Without his presence on the field, TFC could not have won the ACC and earned a spot in the 2012/2013 CCL.

There were times during Wedensday's match where I became worried. Torsten stretched for a ball and then quickly gave out. I thought he had re-pulled his hamstring. Yet he played on. Whereas some players tend to lose their cool or make stupid decisions that hurt our club, Torsten made sure not to get into trouble after taking an early yellow card on a hard foul against Vancouver. The man sets the tone.

Torsten may no longer be in his prime, but he has proven to be in MLS' top class. His salary is counted as $350 000 towards TFC's cap. Absolutely worth it imho. What MLSE (or Rogers/Bell) pays him above that, I really don't care. However, if it requires $2.4 million for Torsten Frings to be suited up in TFC red, then so be it. Torsten has made, and will continue to help make, MLSE (or Rogers/Bell) much more than that amount in profits. I'm with Oldtimer. Torsten's worth every penny.

Blowing Bubbles
05-25-2012, 05:35 PM
Frings is worth every penny he is getting paid.

JDG should buy Kocic a Ferrari to even things out a bit. :D

lol how is that possible on a team that's 0-9? Maybe instead of the 3 DP's we'd be better with 6 x 150k players, who knows.

He's making Landon Donovan money, I would hardly say he's a bargain. But at the same time, you only count 335k against the cap so it's irrelevant from a salary management standpoint.

ensco
05-25-2012, 05:39 PM
^Bayern, he's class. Of course. But you could say almost all the same things about Shalrie Joseph, who makes $500K.

The opportunity cost of paying him $2.4 million, instead of the maybe $1.0 million he's worth, is high.

I'd rather have Kris Boyd and spend a million on scouting which, based on the horror stories coming out of other threads, is being starved.

Yohan
05-25-2012, 05:40 PM
lol how is that possible on a team that's 0-9? Maybe instead of the 3 DP's we'd be better with 6 x 150k players, who knows.

He's making Landon Donovan money, I would hardly say he's a bargain. But at the same time, you only count 335k against the cap so it's irrelevant from a salary management standpoint.

this is pretty much it. I judge players by whether they are worth their hit on salary cap. Is Frings worth 335k? fuck yes

Oldtimer
05-25-2012, 05:48 PM
lol how is that possible on a team that's 0-9? Maybe instead of the 3 DP's we'd be better with 6 x 150k players, who knows.


You realize that the 0-9 mostly occurred with Frings out of line-up, and that the cup successes mostly occurred with him? He has a huge impact on this team.

Now if you were looking for some DP cap space to dole out among some other players, I would look no further than a certain overpaid and underperforming Canadian midfielder signed by the one and only Mr. Mo Johnston...

Soccerpro
05-25-2012, 05:54 PM
Dero is a bargain compared to JDG, Frings and Danny K from a salary perspective (yes they are all dp's but an owner would rather pay someone 680k than 2 million)

Look at these bargains:
George John, FCD - $47,250
Nelson Rivas, MON - $50,000
Jaime Castrillon, COL - $50,000
Sebastian Grazzini, CHI - $50,400
C.J. Sapong, SKC - $65,000


If I was boss of TFC next year's out the door list (based on being over paid) would be:


JDG
Ecks
Aceval
Harden
Hall
Dunfield
Frei (replace with a cheaper backup)

TFC's salary list makes my head spin.

ensco
05-25-2012, 06:01 PM
this is pretty much it. I judge players by whether they are worth their hit on salary cap. Is Frings worth 335k? fuck yes

Sorry it's not that simple.

We could have a $500K or 700K DP (to avoid the Dero debate, let's say it's Shalrie Joseph, or Hassli ) and spend 1 million on scouting, and rebate something on ticket prices.

Or we can have Frings, a joke, bare bones scouting department, and the highest prices in the league.

Which you would like?

Soccerpro
05-25-2012, 06:09 PM
Sorry it's not that simple.

We could have a $500K or 700K DP (to avoid the Dero debate, let's say it's Shalrie Joseph, or Hassli ) and spend 1 million on scouting, and rebate something on ticket prices.

Or we can have Frings, a joke, bare bones scouting department, and the highest prices in the league.

Which you would like?

While this is true in theory, if TFC had a DP at 1/3 the price of their current DP would they rebate something on ticket prices? Not a chance. MLSE will charge whatever the market will stand, becaue they're a ruthless business. Would they spend the extra money on something like scouting? who knows. Considering they just spent 17.5 million on a training center it's hard to argue they're shy about spending, period.

Yohan
05-25-2012, 06:11 PM
Sorry it's not that simple.

We could have a $500K or 700K DP (to avoid the Dero debate, let's say it's Shalrie Joseph, or Hassli ) and spend 1 million on scouting, and rebate something on ticket prices.

Or we can have Frings, a joke, bare bones scouting department, and the highest prices in the league.

Which you would like?

prove that DPs salaries take away from MLSE spending money on other departments and I'll buy your argument

ensco
05-25-2012, 06:15 PM
prove that DPs salaries take away from MLSE spending money on other departments and I'll buy your argument

MLSE are run the way the financial owners see things. Expenditures are used to defend the price structure, and/or build hard asset value.They invest in things that count when it comes time to sell, or players that they think can help staunch declining ticket sales.

That's why they have starved the scouting department over the entire life of the franchise, and why there was no DP in the first 3 years. There's never investment spending in the franchise itself.

It's not all black and white. The exception was grass. That was for the team.

BayernTFC
05-25-2012, 06:42 PM
But you could say almost all the same things about Shalrie Joseph, who makes $500K.
I'm sorry, but you can't. I couldn't convince anyone I know to pay attention to TFC based on the name Shalrie Joseph. There is something to be said about name recognition. Torsten has lived up to his name too. Who is that holding up the Voyageurs Cup wearing TFC red?:
http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20120523/cp24_416_fc_120523.jpg

What hardware has Shalrie lifted lately besides a urine cup from the substance abuse program?




I'd rather have Kris Boyd and spend a million on scouting which, based on the horror stories coming out of other threads, is being starved.
That's your preference. Torsten and Danny chose to come to Toronto. I'm glad they did and I'd rather have either one over Kris Boyd. I haven't seen any proof over lack of funds for scouting, but it's easy for management to make excuses when some of their choices have proven wanting:


While this is true in theory, if TFC had a DP at 1/3 the price of their current DP would they rebate something on ticket prices? Not a chance. MLSE will charge whatever the market will stand, becaue they're a ruthless business. Would they spend the extra money on something like scouting? who knows. Considering they just spent 17.5 million on a training center it's hard to argue they're shy about spending, period.
So this! I'd rep you Soccerpro if I could. :thumbsup:

Oldtimer
05-25-2012, 07:03 PM
So this! I'd rep you Soccerpro if I could. :thumbsup:

I did! :)

ryan
05-25-2012, 07:15 PM
This is why MLS annoys me.

1) Making salaries public...
2) ...and then seeing so many of them are shitty ones. The league has one of the highest average football attendances, has a brand new TV deal with NBC, yet none of that money is going to the players.

Well lets not forget that many clubs aren't and have never been profitable up until this point. New stadiums have been required across the map. Even with LA's 10yr 55M deal with Time Warner Cable, and a championship, I believe they finished in the red last season.

narduch
05-25-2012, 07:28 PM
Now it doesn't look like they had to disclose Caicedo's salary because it would have probably been the most interesting. He was set to be the highest paid player on this team who wasn't a DP (Base salary). That's probably why they weren't sad to see him go after spending some weeks here.

That's pretty interesting.

I wish we had been able to find out what Caceido's salary was suppose to be.

But did that have an affect on TFC's cap? Did they get the cap space back by releasing him so early?

Pookie
05-25-2012, 09:00 PM
Sorry it's not that simple.

We could have a $500K or 700K DP (to avoid the Dero debate, let's say it's Shalrie Joseph, or Hassli ) and spend 1 million on scouting, and rebate something on ticket prices.

Or we can have Frings, a joke, bare bones scouting department, and the highest prices in the league.

Which you would like?

My theory on TFC has been that:

1. MLSE wanted a stadium for FIFA, potential CFL interests, concerts and CSA events, and needed a soccer team to secure that.
2. started with bare bones infrastructure based on 14,000 projected fans
3. realized unexpected sell outs
4. raised ticket prices to capitalize on market
5. got the higher prices but didn't get the results
6. to keep ticket prices high and quiet fan discontent, started to spend on one or two items that grabbed the press rather than invest in infrastructure which would have longer term payoff
7. Brought in JDG because of his "Canadian" market value (also backed up by direct quotes from Mo)
8. When that didn't work, threw more money at a one off solution in Mista rather than make a full investment in infrastructure (though they did invest in TFC-Academy
9. When that didn't work, invested in consultant and unveiled a new (marketing) "plan"
10. When that didn't work out of the gate, again threw money at Koevermans and Frings rather than invest in talent identification/scouting

As a result we have the latter of your examples. A line up that is mid-tier and able to compete if Frings and Koevermans are healthy, and JDG plays to potential.

For me, it all comes back to a half hearted beginning with unexpected riches fueling greed and that has led to band aid solutions.

Toronto
05-25-2012, 09:16 PM
Wow. Now one could suggest that Saputo family connections are greasing some wheels back in Italy, but that would be pure conjecture, and carry a risk of a defamation lawsuit.

Well maybe they also know that when they chased Ferrari, Rivas and Coradi--they weren't signed with ANYONE. When you're making ZERO, 180K seems much better. Our management is lazy when it comes to scouting. Period.

Pookie
05-25-2012, 09:18 PM
While this is true in theory, if TFC had a DP at 1/3 the price of their current DP would they rebate something on ticket prices? Not a chance. MLSE will charge whatever the market will stand, becaue they're a ruthless business. Would they spend the extra money on something like scouting? who knows. Considering they just spent 17.5 million on a training center it's hard to argue they're shy about spending, period.

Was just looking up the investment... found this quote interesting.

Pointing to the five TFC players that have already graduated to the senior team, Anselmi suggested that the investment today would lead to more Cordons in the future.
“Toronto FC and the Canadian national teams represent the top of our aspirational pyramid not only in Toronto, but across the country,” he said. “We now have a homegrown solution for the future Jimmy Brennans and Julian de Guzmans to hone their craft and become professionals.”


.... we should probably aim higher


Just thinking out loud here. We trumpet MLSE for making this "investment" in the Academy. Was it really an investment as in all their money put forward for the good of local soccer development?

MLS is a single entity owner isn't it? Meaning it owns all the teams?

TFC-Academy isn't unique. A lot of MLS teams have them. Further, only 2 teams are profitable as of 2009. Where are these MLS teams getting the monies to invest in academy programs? (granted SUM profits might skew that data a little more).

A fellow by the name of James Rutter wrote:

In 2010, MLS announced the formation of a new reserve league system. This league will receive funding from Adidas as part of that sportswear company's continued sponsorship of MLS. MLS will admit players under 24 years old. Each team in the league will form a MLS Academy Team consisting of these younger players.

So, it seems like Adidas is funding the league, which owns the teams, which are required to have an Academy team. I'd bet that the teams share in the funding much like they do in sharing the revenue from MLS. So, while MLSE may have put forward the money... on paper... I wonder how much of it is actually theirs and how much has simply been shuffled from one pile to another?

Toronto
05-25-2012, 09:21 PM
Was just looking up the investment... found this quote interesting.

Pointing to the five TFC players that have already graduated to the senior team, Anselmi suggested that the investment today would lead to more Cordons in the future.
“Toronto FC and the Canadian national teams represent the top of our aspirational pyramid not only in Toronto, but across the country,” he said. “We now have a homegrown solution for the future Jimmy Brennans and Julian de Guzmans to hone their craft and become professionals.”


.... we should probably aim higher


Just thinking out loud here. We trumpet MLSE for making this "investment" in the Academy. Was it really an investment as in all their money put forward for the good of local soccer development?

MLS is a single entity owner isn't it? Meaning it owns all the teams?

TFC-Academy isn't unique. A lot of MLS teams have them. Further, only 2 teams are profitable as of 2009. Where are these MLS teams getting the monies to invest in academy programs? (granted SUM profits might skew that data a little more).

A fellow by the name of James Rutter wrote:

In 2010, MLS announced the formation of a new reserve league system. This league will receive funding from Adidas as part of that sportswear company's continued sponsorship of MLS. MLS will admit players under 24 years old. Each team in the league will form a MLS Academy Team consisting of these younger players.

So, it seems like Adidas is funding the league, which owns the teams, which are required to have an Academy team. I'd bet that the teams share in the funding much like they do in sharing the revenue from MLS. So, which MLSE may have put forward the money... on paper... I wonder how much of it is actually theirs and how much has simply been shuffled from one pile to another?




When they sell the training academy, the land it sits on will always have real estate value. It was more a real estate deal than a development of talent thing.

Pookie
05-25-2012, 09:23 PM
True, and MLSE are great at developing real estate. I'm just wondering how much was invested and how much was actually subsidized by Adidas or even SUM. Wouldn't surprise me if the bulk of the $17M investment was recovered in some way shape or form.

Seems like many teams that are supposedly less profitable than ours are doing the same things. Given the Academies are fully funded (ie. no fees for players), the costs have to be offset someway.

narduch
05-25-2012, 09:34 PM
I don't think MLSE can even own the land that the Academy facility is on and then sell it for profit, considering it sits on Downsview Park. If anything they signed a long term lease (probably at very little cost) with the Canadian Government.

I think the more obvious way to make money off the facility is by renting out the fields and running their own paid programs, like the ones we see ads for about training with TFC coaches.

This is where TFC sees value in its Academy Facility: http://www.torontofc.ca/academy/programs/home

----

By the way, nice work again Pookie. You have been doings some excellent investigative work on TFC. That info about Adidas is very interesting, thanks for sharing it.

BHTC Mike
05-25-2012, 10:37 PM
Base counts against cap. Good news is $200k in wiggle room and that's without the magic allocation money being factored in.
Most likely, at least base counts against the salary BUDGET (!) as well as an unknown factor of the guaranteed (plus transfer fees). Keep in mind: these are the PA's numbers NOT MLS's. They're not meant to reflect the actual budget cost to the teams and any source from inside a club with knowledge of how this actually works has said that NEITHER number is strictly representative.

Three examples (that all involve a lot of guess work):

Consider Plata. Base $50K; guaranteed $50K. What does he cost against the budget? I'm guessing but logically he probably costs the $50K plus an annualized portion of his transfer fee that would result in it being amortized over the length of his contract. If his contract is four years (two plus two club option is an MLS default) and he cost $500K that'd be an extra $125K charge against the budget this year. That fee's not in the PA's numbers. Estimated total cost (this year): $175K.

Eckersely: base $210K; guaranteed $390K. How do we explain that discrepancy? Since guaranteed includes the annualized impact of any guaranteed bonuses a player is paid it's very likely he got a very, very large signing bonus when we negotiated his transfer. If his contract is over four years that could have been as much as a $720K bonus! If it was a two year deal it'd only be $360K. How does either count against the budget this year? Who knows? It's not impossible though that MLS, since the money is paid this season on a signing bonus, charges the entire amount against the budget in the season it's actually paid. So it's not impossible that Eckersley is costing MORE than the top $390K number this year. (And let's not get into allocation being used to pay the bonus. Allocation spent that way is allocation not available somewhere else. In the end all the money, sans DPs, comes out of the same pot.)

Last, Jeremy Hall: base $100K; guaranteed $149K. He used to be GA if I recall correctly. GA deals typically include a large signing bonus in year one as part of the inducement to drop out of school and turn pro. So, most likely that $49K discrepancy is the lingering effect of that bonus, actually paid 3 years ago, on the way the PA reports guaranteed. So in Hall's case it's likely that his base of $100K is the only charge against the budget this season (since that's all he's actually being paid this year).

Long story short: we don't know what number counts against the salary budget. It's not possible to figure it out from the information the PA chooses to give us. These numbers are always very interesting to look at and give a window into how every team is managing their roster but it's a rabbit hole to try and get all granular and figure out how much budget space each team has.

Whoop
05-25-2012, 11:00 PM
This is why MLS annoys me.

1) Making salaries public...
2) ...and then seeing so many of them are shitty ones. The league has one of the highest average football attendances, has a brand new TV deal with NBC, yet none of that money is going to the players.

That's why I think there will be a work stoppage when the current CBA expires. The MLSPA will want to get salaries raised.

Whoop
05-25-2012, 11:41 PM
I don't think MLSE can even own the land that the Academy facility is on and then sell it for profit, considering it sits on Downsview Park. If anything they signed a long term lease (probably at very little cost) with the Canadian Government.

I think the more obvious way to make money off the facility is by renting out the fields and running their own paid programs, like the ones we see ads for about training with TFC coaches.

This is where TFC sees value in its Academy Facility: http://www.torontofc.ca/academy/programs/home

----

By the way, nice work again Pookie. You have been doings some excellent investigative work on TFC. That info about Adidas is very interesting, thanks for sharing it.

What adidas info? Please link.

prizby
05-26-2012, 12:26 AM
can someone show me a source that proves the base amount is what counts against the cap and not guaranteed compensation?

if it is base, then why the hell are we not paying every one $44,000 and giving them big fucking bonuses

prizby
05-26-2012, 12:28 AM
nelson rivas at $50k...any chance Montreal gave him a big signing bonus before he/them joined MLS?

Pookie
05-26-2012, 07:20 AM
What adidas info? Please link.

That the Adidas partnership subsidizes the MLS Academies. Kids wear their jerseys and MLS teams benefit financially as a result of the deal. Essentially looking to debunk the belief that MLSE invested in the Academy 100% with its own funds, and the belief that they operate this as somewhat of a non-profit/at a loss, give back to the community kind of venture.

It makes the claim of throwing "$17M" into it as an indication of their commitment to winning a little less sexy.

From the official press release:

PORTLAND, Ore. and NEW YORK, Aug. 30 /PRNewswire/ -- adidas and Major League Soccer today announced an extension to their strategic partnership agreement aimed at further elevating soccer in the United States and developing opportunities for young players. The partnership extends adidas' position as the official athletic sponsor and product supplier for the MLS through 2018.

Core to the new agreement is a dedicated focus on youth development and programming to help shape the future of the sport inNorth America.

And from Sports Business Journal

"While outfitting elite players in Adidas jerseys was important, the prospect of outfitting youth players was equally important to the new deal. MLS clubs have begun developing youth academies for soccer players ranging in age from 9 to 18 years old and currently work with more than 20,000 youth soccer players nationwide. Most wear MLS replica jerseys made by Adidas.

The structure of the new deal guarantees that Adidas will have a direct pipeline to some of the most talented young soccer players in the U.S. and Canada as teams such as FC Dallas expand their youth ranks from 2,500 to 5,000 players in the coming years.

“The part of our strategy that resonated most with Adidas is our commitment to youth and player development,” Garber said. “It’s their commitment to that with us that we’re most excited about.”

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2010/08/20100830/This-Weeks-News/Adidas-Ups-MLS-Bet-With-$200M-Deal.aspx

Whoop
05-26-2012, 09:05 AM
Ah thanks.

But really how much of that would go to an academy on a yearly basis, $1-2million, if that?

I always figured the point of the Academy, while there was sunken costs, was to recoup the money through transfers/sales.

ensco
05-26-2012, 09:49 AM
I find the whole veneration for what MLSE is doing with the Academy to be absurd (guys repping each other for pointing it out ffs). Most MLS teams do it, it's really unclear that it'll generate any kind of competitive advantage here, and the financial costs, and benefits, have very little to do with the TFC senior team. There are labour laws in North America that don't allow most of the practices that go on at Euro academies - guys will be free agents at 18 no matter how great TFC's Academy is. Our team is using it's scarce resources to fund a project that is almost guaranteed not to find great players for TFC in MLS. Our success, or lack thereof, will still mostly hinge on all the other places there are to find players, and we don't seem to do very well at most of them.

There is perhaps not enough understanding here in the difference between a capital investment and an operating budget. MLSE clearly loves the former as it relates to TFC (I put the defensive spend on DPs in this category, although that's a separate complex topic), that's nice, but those kinds of investments go on the balance sheet and theoretically get recouped when the asset is sold. That's not spending, and it's wholly insufficient when they're not very keen on being competitive on the operating budget.

They have built a nice house, but are burning the furniture to heat it.

prizby
05-26-2012, 10:04 AM
Our team is using it's scarce resources to fund a project that is almost guaranteed not to find great players for TFC in MLS. Our success, or lack thereof, will still mostly hinge on all the other places there are to find players, and we don't seem to do very well at most of them.


based on what?

Pookie
05-26-2012, 10:10 AM
Ah thanks.

But really how much of that would go to an academy on a yearly basis, $1-2million, if that?

I always figured the point of the Academy, while there was sunken costs, was to recoup the money through transfers/sales.

Well, if you figure that the deal was $200M, each team in theory should receive a max of just over $10M each for their operations n some way shape or form. Whether all of that goes into the Academy is somewhat moot as it would conceviebly roll into a top line budget number. As for annual operation, your number sounds about right. To be clear though, MLSE isn't claiming investments of $17M annually.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were additonal incentives for expansion as FC Dallas is doing in increasing their numbers and we are doing in rolling out the Academy to U12 players this year.

PopePouri
05-26-2012, 10:11 AM
I find the whole veneration for what MLSE is doing with the Academy to be absurd (guys repping each other for pointing it out ffs). Most MLS teams do it, it's really unclear that it'll generate any kind of competitive advantage here, and the financial costs, and benefits, have very little to do with the TFC senior team. (There are a lot of places to find players, and we don't seem to do very well at most of them.)

There is perhaps not enough understanding here in the difference between a capital investment and an operating budget. MLSE clearly loves the former as it relates to TFC (I put the defensive spend on DPs in this category), that's nice, but those kinds of investments theoretically get recouped when the asset is sold. It's wholly insufficient when they're not very keen on the latter.

They have built a nice house, but are burning the furniture to heat it.

I doubt that's actually true. If the only short term benefit outside of DPs is scouting and coaching, do you have evidence that a team like Columbus has more money invested in those elements more than TFC? They may have a better system in place or better scouts or better coaches but that's not true evidence with regard to the money invested. It just makes the FO incompetent.

ensco
05-26-2012, 10:32 AM
based on what?

The best teenage players are going to Europe.

prizby
05-26-2012, 10:47 AM
The best teenage players are going to Europe.

dont think a guy like luca toni was considered one of the best teenagers...there are still plenty of late bloomers

Pookie
05-27-2012, 10:19 AM
I find the whole veneration for what MLSE is doing with the Academy to be absurd (guys repping each other for pointing it out ffs). Most MLS teams do it, it's really unclear that it'll generate any kind of competitive advantage here, and the financial costs, and benefits, have very little to do with the TFC senior team. There are labour laws in North America that don't allow most of the practices that go on at Euro academies - guys will be free agents at 18 no matter how great TFC's Academy is. Our team is using it's scarce resources to fund a project that is almost guaranteed not to find great players for TFC in MLS. Our success, or lack thereof, will still mostly hinge on all the other places there are to find players, and we don't seem to do very well at most of them.



I think you are correct on a number of fronts.

In essence TFC Academy is part of a league wide "Academy" movement. With Montreal adding an Academy this year, all teams will have one. Not surprising since the league is a single entity owner and owns all the teams. At the basis of it is a deal with Adidas that appears to be based on the idea of giving Adidas access to younger players. The more younger players they have, in theory, the more attractive the next deal will be (due in 2018). Keep in mind the current deal was worth $200M. Not bad.

From a player development perspective, you are right here too. TFC makes no money if a player graduates to the first team. They only make money if that player progresses from the Academy or the first team to a transfer situation. The incentive is based on the idea of selling the player, provided they can get him under contract first. Keven Aleman is an example of a player whose MLS rights were shipped by Toronto to Vancouver and the player is now playing for a 2nd division team in Spain with no compensation due to the Whitecaps.

In terms of using the Academy to develop a championship team if it were the holy grail, all MLS teams currently in possession of it.

Roogsy
05-27-2012, 10:30 AM
dont think a guy like luca toni was considered one of the best teenagers...there are still plenty of late bloomers

Again with citing the exception to the rule.

Yohan
05-27-2012, 10:32 AM
Again with citing the exception to the rule.

you can kinda argue that most MLS players are late bloomers, at least those that went through NCAA route by world standards...

Roogsy
05-27-2012, 10:34 AM
More like their development has been delayed by a system that sets up a timeliness that puts NA at a disadvantage to the rest of the world.

The kids with obvious skills will bypass that system.

Yohan
05-27-2012, 10:48 AM
More like their development has been delayed by a system that sets up a timeliness that puts NA at a disadvantage to the rest of the world.

The kids with obvious skills will bypass that system.

as long as NCAA exists, a lot of kids will be held back. but NCAA is not going to go away, until NA is saturated with professional teams. otherwise only a fraction of kids will go through academies.

NA is so big that sometimes even the best kids will end up getting missed, because they just don't get spotted

BayernTFC
05-27-2012, 12:40 PM
fourteen acres of their own, on which will be built three grass fields, one of which will be heated, one Field Turf field covered by a bubble and a 40,000-square-foot fieldhouse complete with locker rooms, training facilities and offices.

The entire cost will be absorbed by MLSE. The original budget was $17.5 million, but the final tally will likely be in the $20 million range. MLSE will also pay yearly rent to Downsview for occupying the land.


I've been asked more than once if it will be open for public use. The answer is no. This is strictly for TFC and their Academy teams. You may or may not be aware however, there are already some soccer pitches there, and more to come under the Downsivew Park Sports Centre umbrella which is an ongoing project.


http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2011/04/18/dobson_on_tfc/


Located at Downsview Park in north Toronto, the 5.7-hectare site will include three grass fields, one artificial turf field under a bubble and a 3,715-square-metre fieldhouse which will house locker-rooms and offices. There will also be an area just for goalie training.
One of the grass pitches will be heated and mirror that at BMO Field.
The facility will serve as training base for the MLS team and its academy squads, which Toronto FC plans to increase from the current under-17 and under-19 teams.
Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment is putting in $17.5 million to build the facility and will pay rent annually to Downsview Park for the land.


De Klerk, however, cautioned that a training facility is just part of the puzzle, albeit an important one. A soccer team needs the right coaches, medical staff and a good scouting system to succeed.
http://www.stalbertgazette.com/article/GB/20110418/CP03/304189725/-1/sag1102/toronto-fc-to-build-facility-at-downsview-park-search-for-young&template=cpArt



The "$17.5 million academy and training facility" isn't only about the Academy:


The Toronto first team has been practising on an artificial turf field at Cherry Beach while the academy sides have worked out on the turf at Lamport Stadium.
"it's not the best facility of course, but OK it's the best in this area at this moment for us to train," de Klerk said of Cherry Beach.
He was less complimentary about Lamport. "It's horrible."


which means no more guessing about where they're training on a day-to-day basis. This was probably the most insulting thing the team has had to put up with year after year. Is it Oakville today? No the grass is too long. How about Cherry Beach? Maybe, but its artificial. What about BMO Field then? No, we don't want to destroy our match pitch after all the rain.

Those days are over; at least starting next year.


They seem to have thought of everything, right down to having the main training pitch exactly (as much as possible) like the one at BMO Field. Good idea.


Did MLSE receive financial support from the Ontario government as VWFC has from the government of BC?

The Vancouver Whitecaps, Canada's other MLS franchise, currently train at their temporary home of Empire Stadium.
They have $17.5 million in guaranteed provincial funding for a training facility but have yet to find a home for it. The team is currently talking to Burnaby about a temporary training site.
"Our plan is to do what Toronto has done and have a permanent site, somewhere in the Lower Mainland," said Whitecaps president Bob Lenarduzzi.

narduch
05-27-2012, 01:17 PM
Did MLSE receive financial support from the Ontario government as VWFC has from the government of BC?

I don't think so. There would have been a big announcement about it if they did.

Its possible that they got a sweetheart lease agreement from Downsview Park though.

---------------

If you can produce one real starter every season or so from your Academy, you are doing way better than the competition. Expecting to field a team mostly made up of your Academy isn't very likely. Most teams in the world don't do that, let alone those in North America. TFC isn't reinventing the wheel here. Other MLS teams have Academies too. I consider this a part of doing business. Not that it necessarily gives TFC that much a competitive advantage over the rest of the league, unless everything goes right.

As it stands today, you still need good scouting, good drafting and good cap management to be good in MLS. The Academy helps too but it has to be a part of the overall picture. You can't throw all of your eggs into the Academy basket.

Yohan
05-27-2012, 01:28 PM
If you can produce one real starter every season or so from your Academy, you are doing way better than the competition. Expecting to field a team mostly made up of your Academy isn't very likely. Most teams in the world don't do that, let alone those in North America. TFC isn't reinventing the wheel here. Other MLS teams have Academies too. I consider this a part of doing business. Not that it necessarily gives TFC that much a competitive advantage over the rest of the league, unless everything goes right.
I don't think any other team in MLS is making the level of investment MLSE is putting into academy program. some teams barely have something resembling an academy, because basically MLS FO forced them to have one


As it stands today, you still need good scouting, good drafting and good cap management to be good in MLS. The Academy helps too but it has to be a part of the overall picture. You can't throw all of your eggs into the Academy basket.

spot on. less people in FO, more people in infrastructure of the team (IE scouting, fitness, etc)

Abou Sky
05-27-2012, 01:36 PM
It should be interesting over the next few years as more clubs bankrupt themselves on salaries in Europe to see salaries come down a bit while the MLS cap goes up and we get to see more quality in our league.

Re: Eck and Hall, I am finally seeing Winter's plan with Hall, then bring in Eck for 'the kill'

Don't get why Plata keeps starting though, seems he is the perfect 60 minute sub???

ag futbol
05-27-2012, 01:54 PM
I don't think so. There would have been a big announcement about it if they did.

Its possible that they got a sweetheart lease agreement from Downsview Park though.

---------------

If you can produce one real starter every season or so from your Academy, you are doing way better than the competition. Expecting to field a team mostly made up of your Academy isn't very likely. Most teams in the world don't do that, let alone those in North America. TFC isn't reinventing the wheel here. Other MLS teams have Academies too. I consider this a part of doing business. Not that it necessarily gives TFC that much a competitive advantage over the rest of the league, unless everything goes right.

As it stands today, you still need good scouting, good drafting and good cap management to be good in MLS. The Academy helps too but it has to be a part of the overall picture. You can't throw all of your eggs into the Academy basket.
Agreed.

Personally, I have a hard time believing they've gone all-in with the academy program. I would have felt a lot better if they had hired people like Patrick Tobo, Rafael Cabral (sp?), or even kept Nick Dasovic on staff. Asides from that, as Demine has pointed out in the past, some of the younger teams lack a league to play in, don't train that often, and have difficultly scooping up the best talent. A decent part of the talent that's left over is getting poached.

I would not hold by breath believing this is the key to the future. As I've said from the start, TFCA can't assume because they exist they have a monopoly on talent. They have to start doing a way better job selling the merits of their program and identifying players locally. Great opportunities are slipping through the cracks.

BayernTFC
05-27-2012, 02:18 PM
Expecting to field a team mostly made up of your Academy isn't very likely.Who has this expectation?


Not that it necessarily gives TFC that much a competitive advantage over the rest of the league, unless everything goes right.
I think the arguments over the Adidas partnership come into play here. When did MLSE start investing in the Academy? How does MLSE investment and the structure of the TFC Academy differ from other teams, if at all? Is it possible that the extended partnership with Adidas was a way to encourage other MLS squads to invest more in their academies or perhaps help pay for them? Maybe the extended partnership with Adidas helps to mitigate any advantage more prosperous teams might have had?


As it stands today, you still need good scouting, good drafting and good cap management to be good in MLS. The Academy helps too but it has to be a part of the overall picture. You can't throw all of your eggs into the Academy basket.
One of the quotes I posted above has Bob de Klerk saying exactly this. Who has decided that TFC is now an organization which exclusively focuses on its Academy? Where does this notion, that funds allocated for the academy come at the expense of other areas, come from? I think there has been an effort by TFC to learn the lessons from clubs with renowned youth programs. Is there something wrong with that approach? Why isn't the expectation that management be successful at developing talent while, at the same time, identifying the right players to compliment the team from outside sources?

narduch
05-27-2012, 02:30 PM
Who has this expectation?

I've seen quite a few posters on this forum (usually when defending Winter) espouse that we can't expect results until the Academy start churning out players that can play 'total football'.

I personally don't subscribe to this theory.

Pookie
05-27-2012, 03:59 PM
When did MLSE start investing in the Academy? How does MLSE investment and the structure of the TFC Academy differ from other teams, if at all?

Adidas partnership was announced in 2010. MLSE's announcement of the $17M investment was made in 2011


Is it possible that the extended partnership with Adidas was a way to encourage other MLS squads to invest more in their academies or perhaps help pay for them?

Yes. I believe MLSE followed the money.


More like their development has been delayed by a system that sets up a timeliness that puts NA at a disadvantage to the rest of the world.

The kids with obvious skills will bypass that system.

Well, in 2005 the USA was ranked 5th in the world. They have fluttered in the Top 30 over that time, reaching 14th as recent as 2009. The current USMNT has 9 of 23 players coming from the NCAA route. I wouldn't say it is a complete bust.

BayernTFC
05-27-2012, 04:21 PM
Adidas partnership was announced in 2010. MLSE's announcement of the $17M investment was made in 2011
TFC Academy has been playing in the CSL since 2008. Doneil Henry was signed to a pro contract and assigned to the first club on August 26, 2010. The stated $17.5 million was for training facilities that aren't just used by the academy. The first team needed a proper place to train too.


Yes. I believe MLSE followed the money.
Perhaps...or it could just be an extension of a program already in place for a considerable amount of time. You are entitled to believe what you want to, but it's easier to convince others when you supply proof. In 2007 the Whitecaps started their multi-million dollar residency program. Was their initial investment done with the $17.5 million in guaranteed provincial funding the government of BC offered years later?


Five years ago, the Vancouver Whitecaps made waves with their announcement of a million-dollar residency program for top youth players.
Since then, it has changed dramatically.


From a focus on selling players to Europe to developing talent for the MLS team.
From around 20 kids to close to 80.


From a mix of domestic and international players to an all-Canadian, B.C.-heavy focus.
From an under-19 team to a program that features players at the U-18, U-16, U-14 and, recently, U-13 level.


From local competition and foreign tours, to competing in the best age-group leagues in the U.S.


And from a modest staff to one that features full-time coaches, a director of player development and an extensive medical team.


For all the change, though, the residency program remains very much a work in progress.





Certainly, ownership's commitment can't be questioned. Costs, according to sources, are somewhere around $2.5 million to $3 million annually.


http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Growing+pains+Whitecaps+residency+program/6536515/story.html

Pookie
05-27-2012, 05:36 PM
TFC Academy has been playing in the CSL since 2008. Doneil Henry was signed to a pro contract and assigned to the first club on August 26, 2010. The stated $17.5 million was for training facilities that aren't just used by the academy. The first team needed a proper place to train too.

Many MLS teams had "Academy" teams in fact quite a few before TFC came into the league. "Academy" was a fairly common name for "reserve" teams.

Regardless, TFC did have players not on their first team that were practicing and developing. My point is simply that MLSE trumpets their investment in the Academy as a cornerstone of their "proof" of commitment to building a championship.

If a championship was important, this investment in training and developing players would have been lock step with the announcement of the franchise award. Not 4 years later. And certainly not just a year after the Adidas deal and details were made available.

(but this is all understandable when you recognize that TFC was born as a part of stadium deal, not as a result of a desire to win championships)

My best guess is that the Adidas partnership provided funding for clubs to develop Academy programs with a mandate from the league to expand their youth focus. As an example, it's why FC Dallas was cited as doubling in size to 5,000 kids and explains why our focus has been expanded to include U12. This focus will enable the league to ask for more than $200M the next time.

MLSE lauds this investment as a cornerstone of the franchise. As has been highlighted, their investment isn't unique. In fact, Vancouver is already in partnership with the BC Soccer Association and has a similar "investment" in their program.

It isn't likely that the mandate of this program is to develop first team talent. As ensco highlights, a club's incentive is to sell a player. And focusing on talent from a limited pool of players that learned their trade in an OSA environment sounds a lot like fishing in a dead lake.

Now that said, as a parent and supporter of Canada's teams, I think that a focus on youth development is clearly needed and I applaud the direction. I really don't care that it came from a monetary incentive.

As a fan of TFC though, I'm not buying the fact that the Academy will singlehandedly change our fortunes. I'm embarrassed by our lack of scouting on the North American and International scene. To me, expecting a team to compete in a US dominated league with just 6 Americans on it is just foolish.

joeyjones
05-27-2012, 05:53 PM
To me, expecting a team to compete in a US dominated league with just 6 Americans on it is just foolish.

6 americans, but Burgos, Frei, Johnson, Kocic all came thru the US system

Ajax TFC
05-27-2012, 05:54 PM
this one raised my eyebrows:
DC DeRosario Dwayne M $ 617,857.20 $ 663,190.53
I thought that the most a non-DP could make was 500k, and even then that had to be bought down with Allocation to 335k. How can he not be a DP at 663k?
can anyone clarify this?

Pookie
05-27-2012, 06:03 PM
6 americans, but Burgos, Frei, Johnson, Kocic all came thru the US system

That's fine. DC United has 17.

Point is simply that since Nick Dasovic was North American Scout (largely in name only) we haven't replaced him... to the best of my knowledge. That is a big reason why we are where we are and have been there for 5 years running.

The USA is further along the development pathway than we are. Whether one likes the NCAA route or not the fact is they are collectively stronger at soccer than we are. This is also a USA focused league with specific restrictions on international imports. To not look to the USA as a source, perhaps the primary source of players, is foolish.

Pookie
05-27-2012, 06:08 PM
this one raised my eyebrows:
DC DeRosario Dwayne M $ 617,857.20 $ 663,190.53
I thought that the most a non-DP could make was 500k, and even then that had to be bought down with Allocation to 335k. How can he not be a DP at 663k?
can anyone clarify this?

MLS salary rules are like a CIA guarded secret. It is stated that the league max salary is $335k for any player. Therefore, the best guess is that teams employing his services (and those of other higher-than-the-max-non-DPs such as Conner Casey and others) have been using Allocation money to pay down the cap hit.

Allocation money is MLS' magic solution to everything. In 2010 they said it was made available "for exceptional circumstances as deemed appropriate by the competition committee." Further, the amounts made available were (and are) never disclosed. The competition committee was in essence, the league itself. In practical terms the league can award a sum of money to any team for any reason that it thinks will impact competitiveness or for any other circumstance and this amount is never disclosed. Sounds great doesn't it?

This reference was removed in subsequent years but it still exists.

Therefore, DeRo and a few others that exceed the league cap and are non-DPs were essentially allowed to circumvent the cap based on the allocation money flexibility. It is most likely that the teams are on the hook for the salary that exceeds the league max cap.

Yet another reason why the salary cap is more of a moving target and folks are best not to think of it as they do the NHL cap.

Richard
05-27-2012, 06:21 PM
That's fine. DC United has 17.

Point is simply that since Nick Dasovic was North American Scout (largely in name only) we haven't replaced him... to the best of my knowledge. That is a big reason why we are where we are and have been there for 5 years running.

The USA is further along the development pathway than we are. Whether one likes the NCAA route or not the fact is they are collectively stronger at soccer than we are. This is also a USA focused league with specific restrictions on international imports. To not look to the USA as a source, perhaps the primary source of players, is foolish.

I disagree, we have not been good the past 5 years because we have not had good enough players. Just because a player is "American" and playing in MLS does not make them an automatic fit or good, TFC need to aquire good players for MLS and nationality should have no influence. American teams have more of them because they are comfortable playing their, as far as im concerned the player can be from timbuktu if he has skills.



MLS salary rules are like a CIA guarded secret. It is stated that the league max salary is $335k for any player. Therefore, the best guess is that teams employing his services (and those of other higher-than-the-max-non-DPs such as Conner Casey and others) have been using Allocation money to pay down the cap hit.

Allocation money is MLS' magic solution to everything. In 2010 they said it was made available "for exceptional circumstances as deemed appropriate by the competition committee." Further, the amounts made available were (and are) never disclosed. The competition committee was in essence, the league itself. In practical terms the league can award a sum of money to any team for any reason that it thinks will impact competitiveness or for any other circumstance and this amount is never disclosed. Sounds great doesn't it?

This reference was removed in subsequent years but it still exists.

Therefore, DeRo and a few others that exceed the league cap and are non-DPs were essentially allowed to circumvent the cap based on the allocation money flexibility. It is most likely that the teams are on the hook for the salary that exceeds the league max cap.

Yet another reason why the salary cap is more of a moving target and folks are best not to think of it as they do the NHL cap.


I wish there was a thread to discuss league salaries in general, but i almost fell off my chair when i saw Barret in LA is still getting payed 200k+.

Pookie
05-27-2012, 06:51 PM
I disagree, we have not been good the past 5 years because we have not had good enough players. Just because a player is "American" and playing in MLS does not make them an automatic fit or good, TFC need to aquire good players for MLS and nationality should have no influence. American teams have more of them because they are comfortable playing their, as far as im concerned the player can be from timbuktu if he has skills.


Actually, there are more Americans on US based MLS team rosters because the MLS Roster Rules indicate that teams can only have 8 International Players and the rest have to be US Domestic players. (they can trade International slots but everyone starts with 8). Canadians count as International Roster Players for US teams.

For Canadian teams, they have this same 8 International player limit (TFC has actually traded for International slots and has 12). They also have to employ 3 Canadians. The rest of these players must come from either the US or Canada as US players count as Domestic players for the Canadian teams.

In building a team, TFC has elected to sign 9 Canadians. All of whom would take an international roster spot if traded to the USA. This makes them a curious choice as an asset. Further, they have decided that since we have met the quota of 3, the other 6 that were signed were better than any other option available in the USA. Like it or not, the USA is a deeper talent pool and we have very little, if any, scouting resources looking at that market for talent.

I'm with you. The best available players should play. If we aren't looking at the USA though, how do we know that the players we have are the best available?

Chevy
05-27-2012, 07:02 PM
this one raised my eyebrows:
DC DeRosario Dwayne M $ 617,857.20 $ 663,190.53
I thought that the most a non-DP could make was 500k, and even then that had to be bought down with Allocation to 335k. How can he not be a DP at 663k?
can anyone clarify this?

I believe that allocation can be used to buy the salary down to 335k and eliminate the need for the DP Tag. Regardless - a big LOL @Derosario. There was no way this dude was gonna get his cheque signed.

joeyjones
05-27-2012, 07:13 PM
Actually, there are more Americans on US based MLS team rosters because the MLS Roster Rules indicate that teams can only have 8 International Players and the rest have to be US Domestic players. (they can trade International slots but everyone starts with 8). Canadians count as International Roster Players for US teams.

For Canadian teams, they have this same 8 International player limit (TFC has actually traded for International slots and has 12). They also have to employ 3 Canadians. The rest of these players must come from either the US or Canada as US players count as Domestic players for the Canadian teams.

In building a team, TFC has elected to sign 9 Canadians. All of whom would take an international roster spot if traded to the USA. This makes them a curious choice as an asset. Further, they have decided that since we have met the quota of 3, the other 6 that were signed were better than any other option available in the USA. Like it or not, the USA is a deeper talent pool and we have very little, if any, scouting resources looking at that market for talent.

I'm with you. The best available players should play. If we aren't looking at the USA though, how do we know that the players we have are the best available?

the rules should evolve to count Canadians as domestic for all MLS teams....maybe a start could be that if a Canadian is on a CA MLS team they count as domestic for the league, e.g. if we trade Cann to a US MLS team, he still counts as domestic for that team..

Auzzy
05-27-2012, 08:25 PM
Isn't Paul Mariner also supposed to be doing North American scouting? You would think, with his experience, contacts, and good reputation from New England, he would be able to do that. But I haven't seen much evidence of that (although a few signings like Avila are decent).

Blizzard
05-27-2012, 10:19 PM
the rules should evolve to count Canadians as domestic for all MLS teams....maybe a start could be that if a Canadian is on a CA MLS team they count as domestic for the league, e.g. if we trade Cann to a US MLS team, he still counts as domestic for that team..

It's a huge kettle of fish. Us oldsters who followed the original NASL will recall that Canadians and Americans were equal in that loop. Ya, it would be awesome if it could be the same in MLS but it ain't gonna happen as the league was started to faciliate the growth of the game in the USA and to assist their World Cup team. They aren't interested in helping out Canada. Indeed, there are many American fans who would just as soon not have any Canadian teams in the league (let alone count Canadians as domestic).

We can't forget, it's their league.

jabbronies
05-27-2012, 11:17 PM
Isn't Paul Mariner also supposed to be doing North American scouting? You would think, with his experience, contacts, and good reputation from New England, he would be able to do that. But I haven't seen much evidence of that (although a few signings like Avila are decent).

Avila was traded for. He was sitting on the bench in Dallas about to be loaned out then we sent Maicon Santos over to bring him here.

joeyjones
05-28-2012, 08:28 AM
It's a huge kettle of fish. Us oldsters who followed the original NASL will recall that Canadians and Americans were equal in that loop. Ya, it would be awesome if it could be the same in MLS but it ain't gonna happen as the league was started to faciliate the growth of the game in the USA and to assist their World Cup team. They aren't interested in helping out Canada. Indeed, there are many American fans who would just as soon not have any Canadian teams in the league (let alone count Canadians as domestic). We can't forget, it's their league.

iirc, Garber has indicated on several occasions that they are in fact interested in helping out Canada. and, it's not their league anymore, it's our league. there are now 3 teams in Canada, and most likely all 3 will be financially successful in the near future (although TFC has seen declining attendance) and be contributing revenue to the league.

Yohan
05-28-2012, 09:07 AM
iirc, Garber has indicated on several occasions that they are in fact interested in helping out Canada. and, it's not their league anymore, it's our league. there are now 3 teams in Canada, and most likely all 3 will be financially successful in the near future (although TFC has seen declining attendance) and be contributing revenue to the league.

let's put it this way. MLS is not going to help Canada at the expense of USA

ag futbol
05-28-2012, 09:21 AM
let's put it this way. MLS is not going to help Canada at the expense of USA
That's a good way of putting it. I think MLS wants Canada to be successful to the extent that it helps their business... and that's about it. I don't think the current conditions are particularly favorable.

One thing of note though: The new CSA president seems to be more proactive about requiring Canadian clubs to stock more Canadian players. Despite their public pro-Canadian stance, both TFC and VWFC have lobbied in the past for less required Canadians on their rosters (which has to be cleared by the CSA). Previous administration was accommodating in this regard, the new one is making is sound like it's going to be a sticking point. So TFC could suddenly find themselves in a favorable position in comparison to Mtl and Vancouver which have largely ignored Canadians in building their rosters.

From my POV, I agree with the CSA (first time for everything). Three required roster spots is a complete joke, especially considering there are a number of spots available for lesser professionals that don't necessarily have to play.

ManUtd4ever
05-28-2012, 10:18 AM
From my POV, I agree with the CSA (first time for everything). Three required roster spots is a complete joke, especially considering there are a number of spots available for lesser professionals that don't necessarily have to play.

Agreed. I think that has to be the lowest domestic quota in any league worldwide.

Wooster_TFC
05-28-2012, 11:06 AM
I believe that it is not possible to make Canadians domestic on US teams due to the US labour laws.

There's something in there about not being able to instate a hiring rule that puts a specific set of international potential employees on an equal or better level than Americans, if I recall correctly. So, MLS would have to make all internationals count as domestic.

prizby
05-28-2012, 11:16 AM
Again with citing the exception to the rule.

Clint Dempsey
Diego Forlan
Didier Drogba
Miroslav Klose
Ian Wright
Edin Dzeko
Dado Prso
Hulk

Wooster_TFC
05-28-2012, 12:08 PM
Clint Dempsey
Diego Forlan
Didier Drogba
Miroslav Klose
Ian Wright
Edin Dzeko
Dado Prso
Hulk

Stuart Holden
Geoff Cameron
Brian McBride
Maurice Edu
Brad Freidel
Tim Howard


There are a few examples of MLS teams getting several good solid years out of players before they headed off to Europe.

Oldtimer
05-28-2012, 12:21 PM
I believe that it is not possible to make Canadians domestic on US teams due to the US labour laws.

There's something in there about not being able to instate a hiring rule that puts a specific set of international potential employees on an equal or better level than Americans, if I recall correctly. So, MLS would have to make all internationals count as domestic.

If they cared, they could get the law changed. Anything is possible in America. :)
Garber could have slipped in a word with Obama when he was meeting the Galaxy. Obama seems to be a genuine fan and aware of MLS issues.
However, I take it as lip service. They don't care to promote Canadians that much.

They don't mind, actually prefer it if Guatemala or Honduras are displaced by Canada, however they would never want the CMNT be a significant threat to USMNT dominance of CONCACAF.

Shway
05-28-2012, 12:24 PM
Clint Dempsey
Diego Forlan
Didier Drogba
Miroslav Klose
Ian Wright
Edin Dzeko
Dado Prso
Hulk



This list is definitely a farce, what determines these players as late bloomers? age v team v best professional season ?
Just cause a player doesn't play for a top club from their 20's-25 doesn't mean that their not a recognized in Europe.

Forlan bloomed from Independiete which got him recognize at Man U, to Villareal, to Atletico Madrid, to Inter Milan

Klose how can he be considered a late bloomer if he was with the German National team since 2001 (age 22)

Hulks 25, no way he is a late bloomer, hes been at Porto since 2008, and has been known.

Dzeko 26 - again not a late bloomer, he bloomed for Wolfsburg in his second season at age 21

Greatest Ripoff
05-28-2012, 12:24 PM
To me, expecting a team to compete in a US dominated league with just 6 Americans on it is just foolish.

And the best player currently in the league and possible of all time is Canadian. So what exactly is your point?

Greatest Ripoff
05-28-2012, 12:30 PM
That's fine. DC United has 17.

Point is simply that since Nick Dasovic was North American Scout (largely in name only) we haven't replaced him... to the best of my knowledge. That is a big reason why we are where we are and have been there for 5 years running.

The USA is further along the development pathway than we are. Whether one likes the NCAA route or not the fact is they are collectively stronger at soccer than we are. This is also a USA focused league with specific restrictions on international imports. To not look to the USA as a source, perhaps the primary source of players, is foolish.


The US is farther along because they have a league with an american player quota. Before the introduction of MLS, Canada use to be ahead of the US. If the Canadian teams (or if there were many more canadian teams) spent more time developing and playing Canadians we could be a much better nation in developing players. Look at how many Canadians were playing in the old NSAL and how well much better we were compared to the US back then.

Shway
05-28-2012, 12:39 PM
Clint Dempsey
Diego Forlan
Didier Drogba
Miroslav Klose
Ian Wright
Edin Dzeko
Dado Prso
Hulk



This list is definitely a farce, what determines these players as late bloomers? age v team v best professional season ?
Just cause a player doesn't play for a top club from their 20's-25 doesn't mean that their not a recognized in Europe.

Forlan bloomed from Independiete which got him recognize at Man U, to Villareal, to Atletico Madrid, to Inter Milan

Klose how can he be considered a late bloomer if he was with the German National team since 2001 (age 22)

Hulks 25, no way he is a late bloomer, hes been at Porto since 2008, and has been known.

Dzeko 26 - again not a late bloomer, he bloomed for Wolfsburg in his second season at age 21

prizby
05-28-2012, 01:02 PM
This list is definitely a farce, what determines these players as late bloomers? age v team v best professional season ?
Just cause a player doesn't play for a top club from their 20's-25 doesn't mean that their not a recognized in Europe.

Forlan bloomed from Independiete which got him recognize at Man U, to Villareal, to Atletico Madrid, to Inter Milan

Klose how can he be considered a late bloomer if he was with the German National team since 2001 (age 22)

Hulks 25, no way he is a late bloomer, hes been at Porto since 2008, and has been known.

Dzeko 26 - again not a late bloomer, he bloomed for Wolfsburg in his second season at age 21

if you follow the posts, i am referring to Ensco's post about how supposively we will never have any talented players in Toronto because they all go to Europe as teenagers yet had these players been in Canada, they probably wouldn't have left for Europe as teenagers and I am sure there are many others that could make this list

ag futbol
05-28-2012, 01:09 PM
I'm going to derail this thread for a second to make a point I had made in the news thread. TFC it would seem, in comparison to other teams has very few professionals earning between the 100-250 range. A lot of money is tied up by dp's and we have quite a few less serviceable meat-and-potatoes types. While we do have some bargains at under 100k, I think more so we lack guys earning that middle range who can realistically be expected to contribute.

I'd trade some of our "depth" for quality IMO.

Pookie
05-28-2012, 04:51 PM
I'm going to derail this thread for a second to make a point I had made in the news thread. TFC it would seem, in comparison to other teams has very few professionals earning between the 100-250 range. A lot of money is tied up by dp's and we have quite a few less serviceable meat-and-potatoes types. While we do have some bargains at under 100k, I think more so we lack guys earning that middle range who can realistically be expected to contribute.

I'd trade some of our "depth" for quality IMO.

I agree and have been trying to shed light on our in-experience in a number of posts now. Even with our older DPs, our starting roster is one of the youngest in the league. Without them, we are the youngest.

As for the point on Canadian quotas you made earlier, this is where mis-management within TFC shines. The quota was at 8. Mo started to lobby with Vancouver, to lower it to 0. Mo left, Earl came in and took his seat at the table. Quota was set at 0. CSA balked and the number was set at 3. Earl and company then proceeded to sign 9.

If we had a competitive advantage in terms of Canadian signings and knew were were we going to be at or above the original quota within a few weeks of it being lowered, why in the hell would we lobby with Vancouver and essentially let them off the hook?

Yohan
05-28-2012, 05:14 PM
I'm going to derail this thread for a second to make a point I had made in the news thread. TFC it would seem, in comparison to other teams has very few professionals earning between the 100-250 range. A lot of money is tied up by dp's and we have quite a few less serviceable meat-and-potatoes types. While we do have some bargains at under 100k, I think more so we lack guys earning that middle range who can realistically be expected to contribute.

I'd trade some of our "depth" for quality IMO.3 DPs on salary cap is killing this team. thank goodness for couple of bargains or else this team would be really screwed

AlanO
05-28-2012, 06:23 PM
I'm going to derail this thread for a second to make a point I had made in the news thread. TFC it would seem, in comparison to other teams has very few professionals earning between the 100-250 range. A lot of money is tied up by dp's and we have quite a few less serviceable meat-and-potatoes types. While we do have some bargains at under 100k, I think more so we lack guys earning that middle range who can realistically be expected to contribute.

Someone somewhere (bigsoccer? can't remember) calculated some stats based on the salary list. TFC has one of the highest average salaries in the league, but one of the lowest medians. This backs up your point.

Kinda begs the question: is having three DPs actually a good idea for an MLS team? LA made it work last year, but this season has really exposed their lack of depth. Having three players eating up a third of the cap space might not be the right way to go...

Yohan
05-28-2012, 06:26 PM
Someone somewhere (bigsoccer? can't remember) calculated some stats based on the salary list. TFC has one of the highest average salaries in the league, but one of the lowest medians. This backs up your point.

Kinda begs the question: is having three DPs actually a good idea for an MLS team? LA made it work last year, but this season has really exposed their lack of depth. Having three players eating up a third of the cap space might not be the right way to go...it's not. i'm always of belief that DPs should be used as final pieces to a well formed squad, not used as instant plug. Most MLS Cup winning teams since 07 do not have a DP. team chemistry and solid coaching > DPs

Roogsy
05-28-2012, 07:29 PM
it's not. i'm always of belief that DPs should be used as final pieces to a well formed squad, not used as instant plug. Most MLS Cup winning teams since 07 do not have a DP. team chemistry and solid coaching > DPs

I agree 100%.

ensco
05-28-2012, 08:12 PM
if you follow the posts, i am referring to Ensco's post about how supposively we will never have any talented players in Toronto because they all go to Europe as teenagers yet had these players been in Canada, they probably wouldn't have left for Europe as teenagers and I am sure there are many others that could make this list

You have some examples. I could produce a list of 200 or 500 or 5,000 that support my point.

The Academy is a mirage for TFC fans. It is not going to produce outstanding difference-making players for TFC's senior team. It will produce decent players, as it is currently doing. Once in a while we may even do better than that, as others will with their academies. But those players are not better (and are probably worse) than the NCAA players that they are replacing, and that will be true for the foreseeable future.

Can someone summarize TFC's current scouting resource commitment? That's what we all need to see - how that stacks up. Scouting is damn expensive, and you don't get to show the money you spend on it as an asset when you sell the business.

Good scouting, like a positive work environment, or a long-term customer base, is a long-term intangible asset. Teachers/MLSE absolutely stink at developing and building long-term intangible assets, because they cost money but you don't recoup them if you're a short-term owner, like Teachers/MLSE is.

Ajax TFC
05-28-2012, 08:22 PM
The academy can't be relied on to make us a great team. We have to have a winning team that kids will watch and want to play for, otherwise they will always leave for bigger and better places. How many kids currently in the academy grew up watching TFC and idolizing TFC players? I imagine VERY few, and probably none idolized anyone. Right now kids have no reason to want to play for TFC rather than for example, QPR

prizby
05-28-2012, 09:27 PM
The academy can't be relied on to make us a great team. We have to have a winning team that kids will watch and want to play for, otherwise they will always leave for bigger and better places. How many kids currently in the academy grew up watching TFC and idolizing TFC players? I imagine VERY few, and probably none idolized anyone. Right now kids have no reason to want to play for TFC rather than for example, QPR

how many current kids would have professional opportunities if there was no academy?

Ajax TFC
05-28-2012, 10:05 PM
how many current kids would have professional opportunities if there was no academy?
With TFC? probably zero. I'm not saying the Academy is useless. I'm saying that the best kids have no reason to want to play with TFC. If they get the option to go to a bigger club, why wouldn't they take it? For example, Feyenoord has the best academy in the Netherlands, but all their best talents get poached by Arsenal and Chelsea. Ajax on the other hand doesn't have as great of a development program, but they manage to hold onto their players better simply because they're a more successful club.

prizby
05-28-2012, 11:33 PM
With TFC? probably zero. I'm not saying the Academy is useless. I'm saying that the best kids have no reason to want to play with TFC. If they get the option to go to a bigger club, why wouldn't they take it? For example, Feyenoord has the best academy in the Netherlands, but all their best talents get poached by Arsenal and Chelsea. Ajax on the other hand doesn't have as great of a development program, but they manage to hold onto their players better simply because they're a more successful club.

funny, because i seem to think neymar has had plenty of opportunities to go to Europe the past 2 years, but he hasnt taken the option to go to a bigger club

Yohan
05-28-2012, 11:38 PM
funny, because i seem to think neymar has had plenty of opportunities to go to Europe the past 2 years, but he hasnt taken the option to go to a bigger club

he's getting wage about equal to what he'd be getting in Europe, plus he seems smarter and not pull a Pato or Robinho; go to Europe too early and burn out

Yohan
05-28-2012, 11:39 PM
With TFC? probably zero. I'm not saying the Academy is useless. I'm saying that the best kids have no reason to want to play with TFC. If they get the option to go to a bigger club, why wouldn't they take it? For example, Feyenoord has the best academy in the Netherlands, but all their best talents get poached by Arsenal and Chelsea. Ajax on the other hand doesn't have as great of a development program, but they manage to hold onto their players better simply because they're a more successful club.
this is assuming that youngsters either have European passports or get work permit somehow

Ajax TFC
05-29-2012, 12:08 AM
funny, because i seem to think neymar has had plenty of opportunities to go to Europe the past 2 years, but he hasnt taken the option to go to a bigger club
He also plays for a team that made it to the FIFA club World Cup final. It's also his hometown club and I imagine he grew up supporting them and idolizing those players. TFC isn't at all a club like that. What kid has dreams of playing for a team that systematically destroys everyone who comes there? Of course there will be plently for whom TFC is good enough, but the really good ones, the ones you need if you want the academy to bring the team to a level higher, will set their goals higher than TFC and will jump at the opportunity to go somewhere better. TFC has to become a team worth playing for if there is to be any chance of holding onto top talents.

Ajax TFC
05-29-2012, 12:12 AM
this is assuming that youngsters either have European passports or get work permit somehow
Don't they only need that when they join the senior squad? In any case, it doesn't seem to be a problem for a lot of kids. If they're good enough, the club will find a way to get them

Pookie
05-29-2012, 06:27 AM
how many current kids would have professional opportunities if there was no academy?

A bigger question to ask is this. If the most successful Academy grad, Nana Attakora, earned a tidy sum of $30k per year and now at the age of 23 is out of contract without a college degree, how many kids will pursue professional opportunities in soccer in Canada?

Pookie
05-29-2012, 06:28 AM
Enscoe, Mariner said in an interview around Christmas that they had 7 scouts for the NCAA and 6 in Ontario. I'd take that with a grain of salt. Word from those connected to the scouting program is that they are very disorganized

prizby
05-29-2012, 07:36 AM
he's getting wage about equal to what he'd be getting in Europe, plus he seems smarter and not pull a Pato or Robinho; go to Europe too early and burn out

isn't that what a DP is for?


He also plays for a team that made it to the FIFA club World Cup final. It's also his hometown club and I imagine he grew up supporting them and idolizing those players. TFC isn't at all a club like that. What kid has dreams of playing for a team that systematically destroys everyone who comes there? Of course there will be plently for whom TFC is good enough, but the really good ones, the ones you need if you want the academy to bring the team to a level higher, will set their goals higher than TFC and will jump at the opportunity to go somewhere better. TFC has to become a team worth playing for if there is to be any chance of holding onto top talents.

still doesn't change the fact that the BIGGEST clubs in the world have wanted him for 2 years now and he declined the move. I am sure there are plenty of kids who at 16, 17, 18 will be willing to stay at home because they aren't ready to move abroad

prizby
05-29-2012, 07:37 AM
A bigger question to ask is this. If the most successful Academy grad, Nana Attakora, earned a tidy sum of $30k per year and now at the age of 23 is out of contract without a college degree, how many kids will pursue professional opportunities in soccer in Canada?

he's not an academy grad

ag futbol
05-29-2012, 08:46 AM
He also plays for a team that made it to the FIFA club World Cup final. It's also his hometown club and I imagine he grew up supporting them and idolizing those players. TFC isn't at all a club like that. What kid has dreams of playing for a team that systematically destroys everyone who comes there? Of course there will be plently for whom TFC is good enough, but the really good ones, the ones you need if you want the academy to bring the team to a level higher, will set their goals higher than TFC and will jump at the opportunity to go somewhere better. TFC has to become a team worth playing for if there is to be any chance of holding onto top talents.
I think that summarizes it accurately.

TFC can create an environment where they retain more of their talent, but they haven't done this as of yet.

Pookie
05-29-2012, 08:46 AM
Sure he was. He came into the fold in 2006. While the investment in the "official TFC Academy" came in 2011, he is the product of our own development system.

If not him, then consider Morgan. He's making $44k. The league minimum. Without bonuses. Same as Cordon, Henry, and the rest of the Academy Grads. Because of MLS Roster rules, each is likely to only play for TFC, Vancouver or Montreal. Of 66 players that have moved on (or waived) since 2008 only 6 Canadians found work with other MLS teams.

Maybe that's just rookies right? Luis Silva is a rookie. Coming from the NCAA route. He's got a degree and a $79,000 pay check to go along with it. Even Maund makes $59,000.

MLSE talks about making the Academy a statement for the organization. If that statement is about exploiting local talent and underpaying them knowing they have limited options... well ok then, I guess that's your statement.

It was the subject of my blog that is about to go up on Sportsnet today. We really need to be calling them out on this stuff instead of just sucking in all that PR spin about how great this option is for youth in this country. It may be great from a soccer skills perspective but from a career option, entice me not to go the NCAA route if you are serious about this.

(I sound like Roogsy)

Oldtimer
05-29-2012, 08:56 AM
Enscoe, Mariner said in an interview around Christmas that they knew 7 player agents in the NCAA and 6 agents in Ontario.

Fixed for what is likely the truth. :D

Pookie
05-29-2012, 08:58 AM
^ should have fixed it for spelling ;) .. sorry "ensco"

ag futbol
05-29-2012, 09:07 AM
It was the subject of my blog that is about to go up on Sportsnet today. We really need to be calling them out on this stuff instead of just sucking in all that PR spin about how great this option is for youth in this country. It may be great from a soccer skills perspective but from a career option, entice me not to go the NCAA route if you are serious about this.

The whole thing is a mixed bag. The NCAA route has a lot of problems as well. Not just from a skills development perspective as well. They don't tell you about the kids who get thrown out and lose their scholarships mid-stream so much, but they exist.

That being said the MLS development route doesn't look great either. The reserve league is still a joke, the rules are too restrictive when they should be allowing for more things like loans to USL teams for development purposes. There are lots of kids like Cordon and Stinson who are too good for NCAA but not good enough for the big show. They have no steady pathway to increase their skills in North America. TFC is jamming the square peg through the round hole trying to develop these guys.

I think if your uber serious about a career in professional soccer, the best option is still to go to europe and hope you catch on. MLS / NCAA is still miles behind the rest of the world when it comes to thinking about simple things.

MartinUtd
05-29-2012, 09:26 AM
This page right here is a good example of how this board can be so hard to read sometimes. In the past minute I've seen TFC compared to Santos, accusations of TFC systematically destroying everyone who comes here, and statements trying to evoke sympathy for a not-quite-made-it pro athlete who is 23 years old with no college degree but still has $50-100k in their back pocket... as if they can't use that to go to college and gosh, get a real job like the rest of us. Oh the humility.

Greatest Ripoff
05-29-2012, 09:52 AM
A bigger question to ask is this. If the most successful Academy grad, Nana Attakora, earned a tidy sum of $30k per year and now at the age of 23 is out of contract without a college degree, how many kids will pursue professional opportunities in soccer in Canada?

He was not an academy player.

Pookie
05-29-2012, 10:01 AM
He was not an academy player.

Kind of splitting hairs aren't you? He came from "our system" and not the NCAA. Though we didn't have the TFA Academy shingle on the wall.. what exactly would you call it?

Greatest Ripoff
05-29-2012, 10:03 AM
Sure he was. He came into the fold in 2006. While the investment in the "official TFC Academy" came in 2011, he is the product of our own development system.

If not him, then consider Morgan. He's making $44k. The league minimum.

Attakora was not developed by Toronto, he was part of the national training centre program.

Also, Morgan get an appearance fee for every game he plays. And this is his second season, I am sure if he made more you would be complaining about Canadian players getting paid too much.

You wont be abel judge the success/ failures of the academy for several years.

Greatest Ripoff
05-29-2012, 10:06 AM
Kind of splitting hairs aren't you? He came from "our system" and not the NCAA. Though we didn't have the TFA Academy shingle on the wall.. what exactly would you call it?

He was part of the CSA's national training centre. It has nothing to do with TFC. He was what 18 when toronto signed him? It hard to take the credit for developing an 18 year old. Not until the U11 program really starts to take shape can you say Toronto is truly developing players. So get back to me in 10 years and tell how shut the academy is.

Pookie
05-29-2012, 10:07 AM
This page right here is a good example of how this board can be so hard to read sometimes. In the past minute I've seen TFC compared to Santos, accusations of TFC systematically destroying everyone who comes here, and statements trying to evoke sympathy for a not-quite-made-it pro athlete who is 23 years old with no college degree but still has $50-100k in their back pocket... as if they can't use that to go to college and gosh, get a real job like the rest of us. Oh the humility.

For me, it's a matter of principle.

TFC says that they will reward players that commit to the Academy "handsomely" and Anselmi points to it as a statement about the organization itself.

Fine. No one is suggesting million dollar contracts but why pay them less than NCAA grads? Particularly when you are asking them to commit to TFC-A and MLS knowing that their job options are extremely limited to 3 cities given MLS roster rules.

What handsome reward is this?

Beyond that, the challenge here is that MLSE is feeding us a line about the academy being used to fuel players. Players like Aleman who wouldn't commit highlight that keeping the best is going to be an ongoing challenge. Why not make it enticing to play here?

Roogsy
05-29-2012, 10:09 AM
(I sound like Roogsy)


Eventually...they all come around.

pVY1-v97Mic

Greatest Ripoff
05-29-2012, 10:09 AM
Kind of splitting hairs aren't you? He came from "our system" and not the NCAA. Though we didn't have the TFA Academy shingle on the wall.. what exactly would you call it?

You think the NCAA is proper way to develop players?

Greatest Ripoff
05-29-2012, 10:16 AM
Fine. No one is suggesting million dollar contracts but why pay them less than NCAA grads? Particularly when you are asking them to commit to TFC-A and MLS knowing that their job options are extremely limited to 3 cities given MLS roster rules.

This isn't true. Most NCAA grads make the league minimum. It's just the top few who make more. Look at Estrada, he makes $44k as well as countless other NCAA grads and othe HGPs around the league. Or what about Efrain Burgos, Jr. a NCAA grad who make $11k less than our HGPs.

Pookie
05-29-2012, 10:26 AM
I'm personally not interested in what other teams pay their NCAA grads. I'm interested in what they are asking local kids to aspire to and when they say they want to treat them fairly, what they actually do. You've used the one exception this year. $79k is what Silva makes.

Last year, Matt Gold and Dimitrius Omphroy both earned $10k more than Morgan and the other Academy grads.

Look, we aren't talking about life changing sums here. We are talking about the principle and the expectation that these kids will stay with this program that us lauded as the future saviour of the franchise. Why not treat them fairly?

Greatest Ripoff
05-29-2012, 10:34 AM
last year

Matt Gold = $42K
Nick Lindsay = $42K

Demitrius Omphroy = $42K
Doniel Henry = $42K

Morgan, Stinson, Makubuya and Cordon all made $33k and have all been given an extra $11K this year.

Also, TFC did not set the salary for Silva. He signed with the league for $79K and if Toronto wanted to draft him, they had to take his salary.

Yohan
05-29-2012, 10:43 AM
Other than high first rounders, most ncaa picks not GAs make league min or something close to it.

MartinUtd
05-29-2012, 10:43 AM
Undervaluing TFCA prospects is not the same thing as systematic destruction, that's all I'm saying.

Pookie
05-29-2012, 10:52 AM
Not sure where you are trying to go with this.

Yes, there are certain contracts that have to be honoured, such as Gen Adidas and other examples. And yes, Morgan received a raise this year.

The point doesn't go away though. TFC isn't held to a league minimum to pay these guys. They can reward them handsomely with whatever number they want. They choose to underpay them relative to others on their roster.

Further, though MLS doesn't disclose which number counts against the cap, the general school of thought is that it is the base number (since Guaranteed Numbers across the league add up over the cap, even with the DP max hits). If true, would a signing bonus be too much to ask?

If this is where we are to recruit our players from, you haven't highlighted a single incentive for a player (and their parents) to make the commitment to TFC-A, outside from skill development. They are paid less, generally speaking, than NCAA grads. They have fewer opportunities to find work. Eg. Silva can be traded to any one of the 18 other MLS clubs whereas our local boys aren't likely to find work in the US based on Roster Rules and history. And NCAA grads at least have an education to fall back on. And given the fewer opportunities for work, this is a major consideration.

And if I am really good, I'm going to do what Aleman did and try my luck in the "big show."

Tell me, why would I, as a player, choose TFC Academy?

pdogg
05-29-2012, 10:52 AM
last year

Matt Gold = $42K
Nick Lindsay = $42K

Demitrius Omphroy = $42K
Doniel Henry = $42K

Morgan, Stinson, Makubuya and Cordon all made $33k and have all been given an extra $11K this year.

Also, TFC did not set the salary for Silva. He signed with the league for $79K and if Toronto wanted to draft him, they had to take his salary.


You come in here with numbers and facts - this is not the message board i've come to enjoy. :)

I was going to chime in with your point about Silva. The league sets the salaries of the NCAA draftees, in fact they are signed before the draft, making them eligible to be picked by the teams. It's not like the other major leagues that are essentially making discovery claims on players in their drafts and then try to sign them afterwards. Also, Silva was part of the Chivas U19 program prior to heading off to NCAA.

ag futbol
05-29-2012, 11:45 AM
The point doesn't go away though. TFC isn't held to a league minimum to pay these guys. They can reward them handsomely with whatever number they want. They choose to underpay them relative to others on their roster.

I don't think this is correct. Assuming they are using those last couple of spots that don't produce a cap hit for HGPs, the amount they are allowed to pay these guys at the start is minimal.

I think you'll have to waive the white flag on the salary comparisons between HGPs and NCAA guys as well. In addition to the comparisons others have already highlighted that hurt your argument, it's also worth noting that not all guys who go the NCAA route will successfully maintain their scholarships, or even stand out enough to be offered a full contract at the end of the day. Comparing the 18 year old academy kid to the 22-23 year old NCAA grad is apples and oranges. They are at two different stages. Regardless of the route, the financial benefits don't seem all that disimilar.

Starting salaries for Jr players are bad, but they're bad for everyone really. I dont' see the academy players as being discrimiated again.

Greatest Ripoff
05-29-2012, 11:59 AM
Tell me, why would I, as a player, choose TFC Academy?

Because it is a step in the development pyramid. If you are under 18 years of age (note that the academy only goes up to U18) and have no european passport, where else would you go to develop as a footballer living in Ontario?

You could spends thousands of dollars a year in a private academy or get free training with TFCA. Then when you reach 18 year of age depending on your skill level, ambitions ect, you can go the NCAA route (like Skylar Thomas and Jordan Murrell), you can leave the academy and try to catch on overseas (like Alemen and Petrasso), you can sign with the first team and have a career in the MLS or use the MLS as a stepping to stone to a larger league, or you can be outright released.

You can look at what Morgan and Stinson did by signing with the first team and it has already lead to call ups with the senior CMNT.

So what exactly is the problem with this?

Greatest Ripoff
05-29-2012, 12:12 PM
And if the NCAA route is superior and TFC treats it's home grown players so poorly why did Matt Stinson give up his college scholarships where he was team MVP to sign with TFC? Or maybe that is not the argument you are making? Your argument started that TFC was so bad because it had too many Canadians, to the academy is a waste of money and can't help this team and now it's that TFC treats its academy players poorly.

If you want to see poorly treated youth footballer you should read this article.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgequraishi/2012/05/16/slave-like-conditions-for-young-brazilian-soccer-players/

Pookie
05-29-2012, 01:25 PM
And if the NCAA route is superior and TFC treats it's home grown players so poorly why did Matt Stinson give up his college scholarships where he was team MVP to sign with TFC? Or maybe that is not the argument you are making? Your argument started that TFC was so bad because it had too many Canadians, to the academy is a waste of money and can't help this team and now it's that TFC treats its academy players poorly.

If you want to see poorly treated youth footballer you should read this article.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgequraishi/2012/05/16/slave-like-conditions-for-young-brazilian-soccer-players/

Canadian content and the way that the Academy treats its grads are two different arguments. Canadian content in a US dominated league speaks to resources made available scouting and player idenfication. It also speaks to whether our talent pool north of the border is better than that of the US and questions why we focus on one route vs the other... though the sponsorship money from Adidas provides the smoking gun in my opinion.

The treatment of Academy grads is a different story altogether.

With that Forbes article, you are saying that they Academy grads are treated better than Brazilians so that's that? Not sure where you work but I'm beginning to wonder.

Here's the point that seems to be missing you. TFC has a choice as to what it pays its grads. Since we are supposedly banking on this system as the prime source of talent and this will supposedly differentiate us from the rest of the league.... all of whom have Academies... does it not make sense that we would want to provide an incentive for them to join ours and not give up on soccer as a career option?

What better marker for aspiring youth than to see how successful players have been accomodated with the first team? Let's throw aside salaries (I'm going to sound like Roogsy again... uh oh) but remember when DeRo talked about the way players were treated?

If you don't he said: "They wouldn't do even little things to help players out, like finding a flat. One player is commuting from Niagara Falls. Others are taking the bus to practice.

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2011/04/01/17847281.html

I couldn't care less whether or not Silva's status required him to be paid that much. TFC had a choice to pay Morgan what they did. They opted to pay him almost half of what Silva gets. Again, by choice. This, from a club that talks about rewarding its players handsomely and the fact that TFC-A is a statement about them as an organization.

Not exactly red carpet treatment is it?

Initial B
05-29-2012, 01:34 PM
I'm just trying to wrap my head around the Morgan-Silva comparison. Silva is in his first year making $79K and is 23 years old. Morgan is in his second year making $44K and is 21 years old. What are the odds that by the time Morgan reaches Silva's age he'll be making $79k? And by then he'll already have made $176K over 4 years, which is more than what Silva made while still at university at the same stage of his life.

Pookie
05-29-2012, 01:37 PM
I'm just trying to wrap my head around the Morgan-Silva comparison. Silva is in his first year making $79K and is 23 years old. Morgan is in his second year making $44K and is 21 years old. What are the odds that by the time Morgan reaches Silva's age he'll be making $79k? And by then he'll already have made $176K over 4 years, which is more than what Silva made while still at university at the same stage of his life.

It's a fair point but what is Silva making in two years?

Further, what about after 10 years when their careers are over which one is likely to fair better in a post-soccer world? The one with the degree or the one with a high school diploma?

MartinUtd
05-29-2012, 01:50 PM
Because people can't got to school with a loaded bank account and a drivers license that says age 30.

Pookie
05-29-2012, 01:56 PM
Because it is a step in the development pyramid. If you are under 18 years of age (note that the academy only goes up to U18) and have no european passport, where else would you go to develop as a footballer living in Ontario?

You could spends thousands of dollars a year in a private academy or get free training with TFCA. Then when you reach 18 year of age depending on your skill level, ambitions ect, you can go the NCAA route (like Skylar Thomas and Jordan Murrell), you can leave the academy and try to catch on overseas (like Alemen and Petrasso), you can sign with the first team and have a career in the MLS or use the MLS as a stepping to stone to a larger league, or you can be outright released.

You can look at what Morgan and Stinson did by signing with the first team and it has already lead to call ups with the senior CMNT.

So what exactly is the problem with this?

First, the kids aren't spending the money. The parents are. For quality instruction and options, a parents are already indicating a willingness to spend on top notch clubs and private academies through SAAC.

While TFC-A is free, nothing ever comes without a catch. In this case, the players MLS rights belong to the club. What if Aleman's endeavors fail and he wants to return to NA? He has but one option, Vancouver who own his MLS rights. I know of a less than well known Academy player currently in a bit of a situation with the club over his rights and flexibility to pursue these other options.

On the surface, the concept of a North American wide Academy system that is free and provides development focus beyond what the OSA has done over the years is music to my ears.

At the same time, the choice isn't necessarily limited to TFC-A vs a Private Academy (or whatever comes of the OPDL in 2014). The choice is do I support my child in pursing a career in soccer when I realize that even if he is top of his class and earns a place on TFC's 1st team and the Canadian team, he is looking at a meager salary with limited international work options and no education to back him up if he falls from form, gets injured or otherwise.

Give me a reason to encourage him to pursue TFC-A. That the players are well treated. That they provide them with education grants. That he could realize a signing bonus. Otherwise, if he is going to be good enough to play on the first team maybe he goes the NCAA route and graduates with a salary of $79k and a free degree to go along with it.

Pookie
05-29-2012, 01:57 PM
Because people can't got to school with a loaded bank account and a drivers license that says age 30.

Funny thing about life. People generally get married and have kids in their late 20s and 30s. Got any interest in going back to school full time?

Even $80k isn't a loaded bank account my friend.

MartinUtd
05-29-2012, 02:02 PM
80k per year is. When I was 20 and in college I hung out with a couple of older folks who were retraining. They're presence was refreshing and they were the most motivated in the entire class. If somebody wants to forgo education to pursue a career as a pro athlete, good for them. Am I supposed to sympathize that they only make hundreds of thousands instead of millions? Give me a break.

brad
05-29-2012, 02:17 PM
I'm just trying to wrap my head around the Morgan-Silva comparison. Silva is in his first year making $79K and is 23 years old. Morgan is in his second year making $44K and is 21 years old. What are the odds that by the time Morgan reaches Silva's age he'll be making $79k? And by then he'll already have made $176K over 4 years, which is more than what Silva made while still at university at the same stage of his life.

I'm okay with Morgan and other TFCA players on the low salary they are on today. Last year he was an academy product with some first team performances showing promise. This year he has staked his claim as our starting LB.

Assuming he continues this trajectory - the real talking point is what Morgan makes next year. If TFC leave him where he is or give him a tiny bump, that's where the damage will come in. It sends the message "work hard, establish yourself as a starter, and we'll still pay you poorly". They need to give him a raise to make his salary an equitable one for a starting fullback in the MLS. Then that sends the message that you can come up through the academy, work hard, take your chance in the first team and we will reward you with an equitable salary for an MLS player.

Of course an equitable MLS salary for most players is still poor compared to most other leagues, but TFC can't be held at fault for that, and overpaying TFCA players just to hang onto them is a bad precedent IMHO.

brad
05-29-2012, 02:20 PM
80k per year is. When I was 20 and in college I hung out with a couple of older folks who were retraining. They're presence was refreshing and they were the most motivated in the entire class. If somebody wants to forgo education to pursue a career as a pro athlete, good for them. Am I supposed to sympathize they they only make hundreds of thousands instead of millions? Give me a break.


80k/year is a comfortable salary, but hardly a pad your bank account sort of salary in Toronto unless you still live a college lifestyle through out. And it's especially not that much if throw a mortgage into the picture and/or a family to support.

Pookie
05-29-2012, 02:28 PM
I'm okay with Morgan and other TFCA players on the low salary they are on today. Last year he was an academy product with some first team performances showing promise. This year he has staked his claim as our starting LB.

Assuming he continues this trajectory - the real talking point is what Morgan makes next year. If TFC leave him where he is or give him a tiny bump, that's where the damage will come in. It sends the message "work hard, establish yourself as a starter, and we'll still pay you poorly". They need to give him a raise to make his salary an equitable one for a starting fullback in the MLS. Then that sends the message that you can come up through the academy, work hard, take your chance in the first team and we will reward you with an equitable salary for an MLS player.

Though we were debating Attakora's semantics over true Academy player or simply local player who joined us at 18, does he not set the precedent here? He came in young, earned national caps and played as starter for $30k per year.


Of course an equitable MLS salary for most players is still poor compared to most other leagues, but TFC can't be held at fault for that, and overpaying TFCA players just to hang onto them is a bad precedent IMHO.

I'm not saying overpay them. But what would be fundamentally wrong with paying him a salary at least equivalent to Silva? Or if not Silva, Maund at $59k? Of the player acquisition routes we have, NCAA players are tiered higher than Academy grads on the payscale. This is a choice to not to at least match that. If DeRo is right, it gets even worse when it comes to feeling like a valued team member.

I manage sales reps for a living and most of them have T4's well into the 6 figures. You'd be surprised at the amount of "Human Resource" created flack we get if there is even the appearance of bonus that wasn't rightly earned to a colleague in a sales contest. Specifically, we are talking about a $2,500 award.

Equity is a workplace issue and it is a fundamental issue in team building. Especially when the salaries are made public.

MartinUtd
05-29-2012, 02:28 PM
$80k one and half times what an MBA makes right out of college. Not what I want to be making at 40, but from 22-27 that's damn good money.

I'm just saying the argument that former modestly paid pro athlete can't go back to school is a total farce. What's the underlying point? They've been coddled with the pro athlete life style and have no work ethic left? I can't believe this is even up for debate.

brad
05-29-2012, 02:52 PM
$80k one and half times what an MBA makes right out of college. Not what I want to be making at 40, but from 22-27 that's damn good money.

I'm just saying the argument that former modestly paid pro athlete can't go back to school is a total farce. What's the underlying point? They've been coddled with the pro athlete life style and have no work ethic left? I can't believe this is even up for debate.

I see your point, but the difference is the MBA is building equity in a career and should watch their salary continue to grow, while the footballer is looking at a total reset career wise. Plus, the other difference is that if avenues are open to other teams, the footballer has the opportunity to make way more money elsewhere while playing.

And of course they can go back to college - as anyone can. But it takes some planning and smarts financially to be able to do so, and some sacrifices as well. Chance are that footballer in their 30's probably has a mortgage to pay, a car payment or lease, a good chance they have a family to support as well. I don't think it's so much about being coddled as an athlete as it is about having to make some hard choices at a very different point in your life.

ag futbol
05-29-2012, 03:18 PM
$80k one and half times what an MBA makes right out of college. Not what I want to be making at 40, but from 22-27 that's damn good money.

I'm just saying the argument that former modestly paid pro athlete can't go back to school is a total farce. What's the underlying point? They've been coddled with the pro athlete life style and have no work ethic left? I can't believe this is even up for debate.
This argument goes a bit like the people who say "I don't think player X should complain about money, I'd play professional sports for free!". All well and good, but what that person forgets is that the market for them playing professional sports, even at zero cost is non-existent. I would not pay to watch someone with no talent play professional sports, a professional team would not put them on a roster to play, nobody would show up at the stadium to watch a recreational player kick a ball around.

For the kids who we're paying to be professional players, we're asking them to make a career choice towards playing the game full-time and give up other opportunities such as go to college, etc, etc, etc... Therefore if you really want "the best" or even something decent to fill these spots you have to compensate people for the opportunities they are missing. Hell, we're getting better players at these spots now with a 40k wage than we were 5 years ago with a 12k "apprentice pay".

In my opinion, MLS should raise the minimum wage to something like 60-80k per year. That would prevent guys like Dan Gargan living off peace-meal despite being a part of what holds this crazy league together. It would also offer prospects a more reasonable starting salary that they can provide living expenses as well as sock-away and pay for college after a short pro career if they are disciplined enough.