Im sorry but..

[dutch]

Toronto fc made a mistake getting rid of de rosario, half the cash they gave to koevermans could have kept this guy here and once again koevermans and frings are nursing injuries. people blast de ro for being outspoken about the dough but wouldnt you? when djg is playing like shit and making your paycheque look stupid. the proof is in the pudding as they say and 1 year later we see the pudding. people always have alot to say about what toronto is doing wrong in the here and now and how to change it. I think it would be easier to explain the here and now using the past tense. amado guevara, marvell wynne, de rosario, alan gordon. these players togethor make a great mls squad and come in on budget unlike the 3 dp's we have "who dont fit the mls style of play naturally. toronto's mistake isnt in the tactics or unlucky breaks. it has alot more to do with whos not here anymore and who signed off on those deals. by the way if brian burke signs an american he gets ridiculed and his motives questioned. what about koevermans, soolsma and bouchiba, even martina got on the bus because he knew someone who knew the guy driving the bus. and in my opinion none of them have panned out well for tfc. soolsma is not special compared to guevara, gordon or our current forwards. just my 2 cents

[Brooker]

Gordon was injury prone too so don't contradict yourself. Amado wanted to go home. Wynne was fast as hell but don't forget his many faults and I'm not even going to touch the DeRo issue.

and i still don't get why people continue to shit on Danny K. I immediately regret posting in here.

[Yohan]

Toronto fc made a mistake getting rid of de rosario, half the cash they gave to koevermans could have kept this guy here and once again koevermans and frings are nursing injuries. people blast de ro for being outspoken about the dough but wouldnt you? when djg is playing like shit and making your paycheque look stupid. the proof is in the pudding as they say and 1 year later we see the pudding. people always have alot to say about what toronto is doing wrong in the here and now and how to change it. I think it would be easier to explain the here and now using the past tense. amado guevara, marvell wynne, de rosario, alan gordon. these players togethor make a great mls squad and come in on budget unlike the 3 dp's we have "who dont fit the mls style of play naturally. toronto's mistake isnt in the tactics or unlucky breaks. it has alot more to do with whos not here anymore and who signed off on those deals. by the way if brian burke signs an american he gets ridiculed and his motives questioned. what about koevermans, soolsma and bouchiba, even martina got on the bus because he knew someone who knew the guy driving the bus. and in my opinion none of them have panned out well for tfc. soolsma is not special compared to guevara, gordon or our current forwards. just my 2 cents

hahaha. DeRo is still not a DP. 10 goals in 16 league games isn't good enough for Danny K? lulz. Guevara is what, 36? Marvell Wynne makes 300k. who thinks he's worth that? Soolsma is a winger, not an attacking midfielder like guevara

I don't care about taking sides in an argument. I'm just going to expose posts that lacks correct facts and basic research. more fun than watching TFC!

[dutch]

i dont mind if you take pride in defending a 0-8 roster. soolsma is a forward, guevara plays forward sorry call it attacking midfielder if it makes you feel better . in two games back to back against tfc how many goals did de ro get? he's about to hit the 100 goal mark in mls right with no sign of slowing down, how many people are in that club? b.t.w mls dosent sign american workhorses to dp's i dont know if you noticed that, dp's are a way to lure old europeans into the league. does being a dp make you better? i dont think it ever made anyone better, look at the records man. wynne is the shut down defender toronto is looking for today. gordon dosent look very injury prone this year. 10 goals in 16 games for koevermans? wow thats impressive, how many games has he not played in but been paid for? thats even more impressive. he's not in the top 5 of mls dps, maybe for games missed.

[Yohan]

i dont mind if you take pride in defending a 0-8 roster. soolsma is a forward, guevara plays forward sorry call it attacking midfielder if it makes you feel better . in two games back to back against tfc how many goals did de ro get? he's about to hit the 100 goal mark in mls right with no sign of slowing down, how many people are in that club? b.t.w mls dosent sign american workhorses to dp's i dont know if you noticed that, dp's are a way to lure old europeans into the league. does being a dp make you better? i dont think it ever made anyone better, look at the records man. wynne is the shut down defender toronto is looking for today. gordon dosent look very injury prone this year. 10 goals in 16 games for koevermans? wow thats impressive, how many games has he not played in but been paid for? thats even more impressive. he's not in the top 5 of mls dps, maybe for games missed.

clearly you missed my post in the DC post game thread.

I am now going to destroy your post, because I'm bored.

Soolsma is a winger. Wide forward if you must, but Soolsma doesn't play centrally. Calling Guevara a forward? lulz.

DeRo had two goals in two games vs Toronto. So? If you missed the memo, New England signed Shalrie Joseph as DP. He's played in MLS for ages btw, and is about 'workhorse' as they come. Brek Shea is apparently now a DP too.

How many Colorado Rapids games have you watched? Wynne makes up for his lack of football intelligence and positioning with his pace, and that of Drew Moor. Without a smart CB partner to guide him, Wynne is still the same raw, athletic defender he was in Toronto. Certainly not worth 300k in salary.

Gordon just came out of injury again this year. He does have 3 goals, but only played 5 games so far this season, none of them starts. I wish Gordon still played for TFC too, but let's get the facts straight.

Koevermans played 6 out of 9 league games this season so far. He played 10 out of 13 games last season after signing with TFC. That's 73% of all league games.
Compare that with Alan Gordon, in that same time period has played 2 games for SJ last year, since his trade from TFC.

[__wowza]

i moved this thread to the MLS section, he's not one of our players anymore, and it was the best i can do without shutting it down.

personally, i think the dero arguments gotten kindve old. it was old this time a year ago and its old now. whats done is done and ive got no will to see another debate rage on about the merits of what a past player can do for the team currently (aside from resigning). also, in case youd like to make the argument, he was traded from NYRB, so surely you can give them some flack for getting rid of such a fantastic player, am i right? i dont mean to sound bitter, but ive heard this sentiment so many times before that it's lost all meaning and validity.

[Shakes McQueen]

How did you guys even read those impenetrable walls of text?

At any rate, we've had a dozen of these threads - where DeRo either has a good game against us, or another team, and somone comes on here and has the personal epiphany that we never should have traded him. It's tedious, it's pointless (what's done is done), and it does nothing but re-open long dormant battles from early last season, on an issue that has been discussed to death more than anything else in this board's history.

- Scott

[narduch]

After over a year, I think its pretty safe to say that getting rid of De Rosario was a major mistake.

I know people want to bend over backwards and defend the move for various reasons, but I have no doubt in my mind that the club should have bent over backwards to keep him.

[OgtheDim]

This board needs a Dead Horses section, where debates that will never be resolved go to die.

[narduch]

This board needs a Dead Horses section, where debates that will never be resolved go to die.

This team needs to turn things around, this way the Dead Horse debates will be irrelevant.

[denime]

This board needs a Dead Horses section, where debates that will never be resolved go to die.

I like the idea. :deadhorse:

[Yagbod]

All DeRo centered threads should just be closed. Maybe leave one open for those who like to either

a) :banghead:

or

b):deadhorse:

[narduch]

What's wrong with leaving the thread open?

If you aren't interested, don't read it. Don't comment on it.

The people who want to discuss what a colossal failure it was to get rid of DeRosario should be able to.

Eventually the thread will drop down on its own.

[james]

Dero i never wanted to leave, I couldn't believe people on here wanted to get rid of him. Marvel Wynee...ya he was fastest guy in the League, but he also seemed to be out of position sometimes and his ball control skills were not that good.

[bigredone]

D.K.s interview was a sorry enough from a man who didn't need to say it. I think he will put a deuce away for us on Wed. with all his pent-up rage.

[Chris Wren]

I'd like to say that I believe the chicken came before the egg and that trees do make sounds when they fall, even if nothing is there to hear it. Anyone disagree?

[narduch]

D.K.s interview was a sorry enough from a man who didn't need to say it. I think he will put a deuce away for us on Wed. with all his pent-up rage.

TFC will win on Wednesday and probably lose or tie on Saturday, just to continue the absurdity of this season.

[Oldtimer]

The real mistake is thinking that an Engineer with no football background could manage a football club.

[Shakes McQueen]

What's wrong with leaving the thread open?

If you aren't interested, don't read it. Don't comment on it.

The people who want to discuss what a colossal failure it was to get rid of DeRosario should be able to.

Eventually the thread will drop down on its own.

It already was discussed, at incredible and neverending length, over a year ago - back when the trade, and the contract drama were actually happening. You wouldn't know because you registered last month. It was eventually clamped down, because it was doing nothing but inciting acrimony both ways.

- Scott

[Doucet3]

All DeRo centered threads should just be closed. Maybe leave one open for those who like to either

a) :banghead:

or

b):deadhorse:

B in my opinion no?, wells were rehashing old news and why did the nazis do such terrible things?, why did 9/11 happen... Little extereme? Yes but come on what's done is done stop dwelling on the past and look to the shitty bleak future of the present, we have a good team, just bad off field workings IMO and Dero isn't gunna help he's gone done deal, deal with it

PS to the OP, ... USE PARAGRAPHS, I don't mean to be insulting at all but everyone learned paragraphs back in what... Grade 4??, If your gunna rant about something don't be lazy about it

[narduch]

It already was discussed, at incredible and neverending length, over a year ago - back when the trade, and the contract drama were actually happening. You wouldn't know because you registered last month. It was eventually clamped down, because it was doing nothing but inciting acrimony both ways.

- Scott

The issue is still relevant though, especially considering how awful TFC has been in the aftermath.

[Beach_Red]

The real mistake is thinking that an Engineer with no football background could manage a football club.

What's strange (to me, anyway) is it's the poor management decisions that have sunk this team, not the football specific decisions. (that's a whole oth discussion). There's a muddled org chart with no one really in charge and it keeps changing. The DeRo fiasco when the team couldn't even give a straight answer whether he was training or trialing with another team and if he had permission to do so or not - that kind of office mess isn't acceptable in any prodession, not just sports. It teally makes me wonder about the other MLSE businesses they are supposedly so good at.

On the bright side I have some faith that Bell/Rogers at least know how to run an office.

[Roogsy]

Not to comment on DeRo (because you all know where I stand with that) but on the thread, it's always interesting to me that the ones that chime in immediately about closing these threads are also the ones that defended getting rid of him to begin with.

Interesting.

[Shakes McQueen]

The issue is still relevant though, especially considering how awful TFC has been in the aftermath.

Discussing a trade we made over a year ago ad nausem is not relevant, simply because the current team is playing terribly. The discussion was had, it died, was buried, and now it's time to move on. Nevermind that a trade basically had to happen by the time Winter took control, because the relationship between the team and DeRo was thoroughly poisoned.

- Scott

[Fort York Redcoat]

Not to comment on DeRo (because you all know where I stand with that) but on the thread, it's always interesting to me that the ones that chime in immediately about closing these threads are also the ones that defended getting rid of him to begin with.

Interesting.

Really? I haven't seen him yet. Anyone else was swayed well later...

Can't wait to see him get his 20th for country...

[Shakes McQueen]

Not to comment on DeRo (because you all know where I stand with that) but on the thread, it's always interesting to me that the ones that chime in immediately about closing these threads are also the ones that defended getting rid of him to begin with.

Interesting.

I enjoy when you subtly take shots at unnamed people. "Interesting", indeed.

We are the moderators. It's our job to weigh in on issues of closing threads. If a moderator who was on "your side" wants to take another position, they are welcome to. My personal position on this tired old issue holds no weight in judging whether I think it's worth reopening an old, acrimonious debate.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

Somewhat hard to believe. This board has a very specific focus, TFC and MLS. Topics will always be rehashed constantly because they continue becoming relevant. This particular topic to many is still relevant because the current situation we find ourselves in is directly tied to decisions made in the off-season of 2010/2011. But it's easy to dismiss that and hide behind the cover of board administration in order to promote a particular agenda.

For many, this issue will hang on TFC`s neck until the day he retires. Lord help us if he ever wins another MLS Cup while we continue to struggle to get into the playoffs.

As for moderators, I won't comment on that in order to avoid getting an infraction.

[Shakes McQueen]

Somewhat hard to believe. This board has a very specific focus, TFC and MLS. Topics will always be rehashed constantly because they continue becoming relevant. This particular topic to many is still relevant because the current situation we find ourselves in is directly tied to decisions made in the off-season of 2010/2011. But it's easy to dismiss that and hide behind the cover of board administration in order to promote a particular agenda.

For many, this issue will hang on TFC`s neck until the day he retires. Lord help us if he ever wins another MLS Cup while we continue to struggle to get into the playoffs.

As for moderators, I won't comment on that in order to avoid getting an infraction.

Yet you found a way to obliquely comment anyway.

I've said my piece on what I think of having this discussion again. Now it's up the mods collectively to decide where it goes.

- Scott

[dutch]

i posted this because its relevant to me as a fan, its obviously relevant to other fans. unless theres too much arguing, which there isnt, who are you to tell me the issue is over and move on. this isnt east berlin 1986, its a free fan forum. I didnt feel De ro was that special at the trade..but over time he has consistently shown what we are missing by him not being here. thats why I felt it would be fun to post a message and see who felt the same or just wanted to discuss de ro in general

[Shakes McQueen]

i posted this because its relevant to me as a fan, its obviously relevant to other fans. unless theres too much arguing, which there isnt, who are you to tell me the issue is over and move on. this isnt east berlin 1986, its a free fan forum. I didnt feel De ro was that special at the trade..but over time he has consistently shown what we are missing by him not being here. thats why I felt it would be fun to post a message and see who felt the same or just wanted to discuss de ro in general

Half of this post is reasonable enough of a viewpoint, the other half is nonsense.

This is not a "free fan forum" - it's a forum for the Red Patch Boys supporter group, that they've chosen to open (parts of) to non-member users. And you're currently addressing several moderators of that forum - the people who occasionally decide when an issue has been flogged to death.

The "East Berlin 1986" stuff I won't dignify with further comment.

- Scott

[tiberius]

Not to comment on DeRo (because you all know where I stand with that) but on the thread, it's always interesting to me that the ones that chime in immediately about closing these threads are also the ones that defended getting rid of him to begin with.

Interesting.

I do not want to dive deep into the DeRo April Fool's joke but it is definitely relevant to our current situation in that it is one of the clearest examples we have of upper management bungling. If one is looking for examples of why A B and C should be shown the door - this is a premier example. I am not sure why anyone is afraid of another DeRo discussion - as someone said above - it will peter out soon....


__________________________________________________ _______
"The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen."

[Yohan]

anyone who wants to put in their two cents on DeRo topic should be forced to read that 100pg DeRo mega thread before posting ;)

[tiberius]

This board needs a Dead Horses section, where debates that will never be resolved go to die.

That is a good idea Og! It would have to come with a viewer's warning about repetitive heated arguments being dangerous to your health. Perhaps Mods could draw straws so that only one would have to endure the dead horse discussions... :banghead: ...Or perhaps they would have to choose the one with the strongest constitution...:o

[narduch]

I do not want to dive deep into the DeRo April Fool's joke but it is definitely relevant to our current situation in that it is one of the clearest examples we have of upper management bungling. If one is looking for examples of why A B and C should be shown the door - this is a premier example. I am not sure why anyone is afraid of another DeRo discussion - as someone said above - it will peter out soon....


__________________________________________________ _______
"The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen."

I agree. How can you analyze why TFC is a disaster and not bring up De Rosario?

Only the willfully ignorant could call the De Rosario situation irrelevant.

[prizby]

If I am reading this right, dutch is suggesting we should have given DeRo a pay raise after he got one when in 2009 despite his contract not being up instead of him honouring his 4 year contract he signed?

I have no problem with giving a player a pay raise despite his contract not being up. Thats not the issue, but it has to work as a two way street. If rewarding players should be done, players should also be expected to take less when they don't perform up to what they are being played.

Unless MLS has an NFL type policy where players can be flat out released and not paid to shave cap room, it is very hard to give a player a raise if you are trying to structure your cap room and future moves based on their old salary

[Yagbod]

anyone who wants to put in their two cents on DeRo topic should be forced to read that 100pg DeRo mega thread before posting ;)

Damn right. I cannot possibly imagine that there is anything to add now.

[narduch]

If I am reading this right, dutch is suggesting we should have given DeRo a pay raise after he got one when in 2009 despite his contract not being up instead of him honouring his 4 year contract he signed?

I have no problem with giving a player a pay raise despite his contract not being up. Thats not the issue, but it has to work as a two way street. If rewarding players should be done, players should also be expected to take less when they don't perform up to what they are being played.

Unless MLS has an NFL type policy where players can be flat out released and not paid to shave cap room, it is very hard to give a player a raise if you are trying to structure your cap room and future moves based on their old salary

The problem was that he was promised a pay raise if he performed, which he did.

I'm not blaming Aron Winter for this. I'm sure Winter wanted to keep him. Who wouldn't have wanted to?

This goes above Winter and is part of why I want to see the entire FO purged (Anselmi, Beirne, Cochrane, etc.)

[Shakes McQueen]

The problem was that he was promised a pay raise if he performed, which he did.

I'm not blaming Aron Winter for this. I'm sure Winter wanted to keep him. Who wouldn't have wanted to?

This goes above Winter and is part of why I want to see the entire FO purged (Anselmi, Beirne, Cochrane, etc.)

Then discuss it in the existing thread about firing the higher ups.

- Scott

[narduch]

Then discuss it in the existing thread about firing the higher ups.

- Scott

Why not just leave this thread alone and let it take its course?

I'm sure in a day or two it will be shoved to the 2nd page.

There would actually be a lot less comments in this thread if the people who think this topic isn't worth discussing stopped discussing it (which is funny in its own way).

What's the big deal unless you have an agenda?

[Chris Wren]

How can anyone still find this topic relevant? It's over and done with. I could see it if we were some great team a couple years ago, but we weren't. What glorious time are we supposed to be looking back at? Both sides can share blame in his ugly departure too. He was a great goal scorer for us, but he also lead the league in offsides while he was here. Why do people still care? In my personal opinion, Guevarra was the best player to ever wear a TFC uniform anyway. DeRo is long gone and with him we might be as good as 1-8. Move on.

[Shakes McQueen]

Why not just leave this thread alone and let it take its course?

I'm sure in a day or two it will be shoved to the 2nd page.

There would actually be a lot less comments in this thread if the people who think this topic isn't worth discussing stopped discussing it (which is funny in its own way).

What's the big deal unless you have an agenda?

I'm illustrating my point about why this thread doesn't need to exist.

And consider this your formal warning about accusing me, or any other moderator here, of moderating with an agenda. I mostly brushed off your earlier comment about East Germany, and being called "willfully ignorant", but now it's just clear you're not getting the hint. And further, if you had any concept of the amount of times moderators have privately defended people with unpopular points of view, you'd know how ignorant your comment was.

- Scott

[Blizzard]

Gordon was injury prone too so don't contradict yourself. Amado wanted to go home. .

Amado wanted to stay with TFC but wouldn't/couldn't play for Preki. As soon as he knew Preki was going to be hired, he signed back home .... and then single handedly, almost defeated us in the CCL preliminary round by scoring two goals against us. Fortunately we eeked out a result on that night.

[Pookie]

The problem was that he was promised a pay raise if he performed, which he did.

I'm not blaming Aron Winter for this. I'm sure Winter wanted to keep him. Who wouldn't have wanted to?

This goes above Winter and is part of why I want to see the entire FO purged (Anselmi, Beirne, Cochrane, etc.)

It's funny to me how bitterly both sides argued for or against keeping DeRo yet almost everyone is united on the fact that the FO higher ups are in need of a change of scenery.

[denime]

It's funny to me how bitterly both sides argued for or against keeping DeRo yet almost everyone is united on the fact that the FO higher ups are in need of a change of scenery.


and this is why this whole discussion belongs here:

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?31690-Anselmi-%283-wise-men%29-or-Winter-Who-to-get-rid-of