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__wowza
05-19-2012, 08:36 PM
hey, i didnt even need to change the opposing teams scoreline from the last MLS game!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9THwnQg-vEw

West220Side
05-19-2012, 08:37 PM
Id say some pretty rude stuff to Aron Winter right now.
If I wasn't scared of what Bob De Klerk would do to me.

iy12l
05-19-2012, 08:39 PM
Can we get relegated to the CSL, atleast we can win something.

Yohan
05-19-2012, 08:39 PM
it's like the team was treating this game like a practice for the Voyageurs Cup final

ag futbol
05-19-2012, 08:39 PM
Someone want to recap quickly for me?
Out of country and didn't get to watch

tfcleeds
05-19-2012, 08:40 PM
Just boggles the mind how bad we can be. 0-9. When will this nightmare end?

OgtheDim
05-19-2012, 08:40 PM
Can somebody please fire Anselmi and hire Jason DeVos?

jimiv
05-19-2012, 08:41 PM
So, how will Winter spin this one, any guesses? I doubt we will hear his "we were the better team" this time.

SirBobSaget
05-19-2012, 08:42 PM
It's time for Winter to organize a press conference detailing how screwed up management is and go home or to just simply go home.

Auzzy
05-19-2012, 08:42 PM
It would be pretty fucking hilarious if this 0-9-0 team were to win the """""""Canadian Championship""""""" on Wednesday.

[NBF]
05-19-2012, 08:42 PM
This is my lineup for keepers:

----------------------------X----------------------------
------------------------Kocic/Frei------------------------
Eckersley----------X------------------X------------Aceval
Hall-------------Maund-------------Henry----------Morgan
--------------------------Frings--------------------------
----------------------------X-----------------------------
-----------*DeGuzman----------------X-------------------
--------------Avila------------------Silva-----------------
--X-----------------------------------------------Johnson
Lambe-----------------------------------------------Plata
------------------------Koevermans----------------------
-----------------------------X----------------------------

*DeGuzman, since you cant get rid of him.

DangerRed
05-19-2012, 08:44 PM
I can barely speak from all the screaming I did when my Chelsea won today, so I'll just weep silently for this one.

[NBF]
05-19-2012, 08:44 PM
GolTV, not airing the TFC: Extra Time, is it possible Winter could be fired tonight?

los sonadores
05-19-2012, 08:44 PM
Re: DeVos - Of course Anselmi outsourced the technical staff. He knows nothing about football and just followed the lame corporate 'hire a consultant to fix things' model.

69Chevy396
05-19-2012, 08:46 PM
Who would have thunk it.....that record goal scoring drought in year one would be surpassed for futility in 2012

Eastend
05-19-2012, 08:46 PM
I hate this fucking team.

Wait, no I don't.

Yes, yes I do. I hate this fucking team.


Dom

lerxst
05-19-2012, 08:46 PM
I can barely speak from all the screaming I did when my Chelsea won today, so I'll just weep silently for this one.


Chelsea played today?

Eastend
05-19-2012, 08:47 PM
I hate them too.

Richard
05-19-2012, 08:47 PM
This team needs a Football president not a real estate developer.

Nuvinho
05-19-2012, 08:47 PM
What DeVos also said in his tweets, is that EVERY coach got no support from upper management - including in some cases to bring/retain certain payers. This year, did Earl/Paul nix players that Winter wanted to bring in? Did they force Caicedo and Aceval on him. If so, then blame everyone....not just Winter.

Couchy81
05-19-2012, 08:47 PM
The question isn't when will Winter be fired. it's when are we going to get new owners.

DangerRed
05-19-2012, 08:47 PM
Chelsea played today?

LOLOLOL you so bitter!!

volunteer
05-19-2012, 08:48 PM
must.stay.optimistic.......

look at it this way guys, all TFC is doing is just solidifying the one record we broke this year and currently hold for worst start. plus we are on our way to smashing another MLS record for worst losing streak (0-10). 2 more games and it's ours!

we.are.immortal!!!!!!!!!!!

lerxst
05-19-2012, 08:49 PM
LOLOLOL you so bitter!!

Hehe

king dave
05-19-2012, 08:51 PM
I think MLSE thought there was an inherent market here in TO.
Okay.
But I think they had virtually no idea how to market it properly and that is where we are now.
KD.

69Chevy396
05-19-2012, 08:53 PM
good one

lerxst
05-19-2012, 08:53 PM
What do we do now? I'm a little worried. lol :fluffy:

moralis
05-19-2012, 08:54 PM
Found this interesting tweet from Steve Goff (Washington Post-DCU beat reporter):

Steven Goff ‏@SoccerInsider
Strangest sign at RFK: "Love DCU Hate ML$" Er, okay.

http://twitter.com/#!/SoccerInsider/status/203994388286808064 (http://twitter.com/#!/SoccerInsider/status/203994388286808064)

Beach_Red
05-19-2012, 08:56 PM
What DeVos also said in his tweets, is that EVERY coach got no support from upper management - including in some cases to bring/retain certain payers. This year, did Earl/Paul nix players that Winter wanted to bring in? Did they force Caicedo and Aceval on him. If so, then blame everyone....not just Winter.

When TFC started, Mo Johnston was told to go and find players - but then MLSE negotiated the contracts (they have dozens of lawyers for this, afterall). This method has pretty much continued to today and there have been rumours that every manager has found players willing to come to TFC but contracts couldn't be worked out.

This is why the team needs a president (it should be noted the Leafs and Raptors were run the same way and had the same problems and now both of those teams have presidents that don't have to go through this method).

Batman
05-19-2012, 08:56 PM
What DeVos also said in his tweets, is that EVERY coach got no support from upper management - including in some cases to bring/retain certain payers. This year, did Earl/Paul nix players that Winter wanted to bring in? Did they force Caicedo and Aceval on him. If so, then blame everyone....not just Winter.

If DeVos wants to be in the press..why doesnt be break the real story..not just vague cryptic tweets.

[NBF]
05-19-2012, 08:56 PM
good one

I aim to please, but there's no good joke about that subject. You can barely tell she used to be a man.

Oblio2
05-19-2012, 08:57 PM
0-9
We can be amazing if we go 0 - season. Nobody will ever beat THAT record.

lerxst
05-19-2012, 08:58 PM
"...and give great headers...."

teeheeheehee

69Chevy396
05-19-2012, 08:58 PM
They said the same thing about Lady Gaga and look at her now. Hey look everybody, this way when the team finally wins a game everybody will be much happier than they are now, and for some of us, we will be able to share the moment with our grand kids

king dave
05-19-2012, 08:59 PM
0-9
We can be amazing if we go 0 - season. Nobody will ever beat THAT record.
I have the fabric and that would be a great banner.
KD.

[NBF]
05-19-2012, 08:59 PM
"...and give great headers...."

teeheeheehee Two assholes and two mouths....Wow science.

Furtado91
05-19-2012, 08:59 PM
Who would give her the much needed security updates? after all safety first ;)

Batman
05-19-2012, 09:00 PM
I think MLSE thought there was an inherent market here in TO.
Okay.
But I think they had virtually no idea how to market it properly and that is where we are now.
KD.

I don't follow you.. IMHO marketing isn't MLSEs problem.. technical sports competence is.

[NBF]
05-19-2012, 09:02 PM
Who would give her the much needed security updates? after all safety first ;)

If anything she would be a good drug mule, since there's just void in place of her male organs.

king dave
05-19-2012, 09:04 PM
I am not gonna stir up any more shit here tonight.
I'm into my 12th Kozel and I have an 11 am tee-time tomorrow.
Watched the Champs final, the Preakness Stakes and the TFC match.
So.
Chelsea can suck my bag.
I had Tiger Walk @ 20-1 and finished 8th.
But I have DeRo on my team!
KD.

69Chevy396
05-19-2012, 09:09 PM
12 Kozels....than you would not have a hard time believing a sight of the new TFC striker, just signed:http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l3vj0swxpP1qzl5apo1_500.jpg

SoccMan
05-19-2012, 09:13 PM
This team is a disgrace people forget about the Canadian championship, Champions league bullshit, we are 0 and fucking 9 in the MLS a lower tier league in world soccer. The MLS a league where on any given day anybody can win a league game were parity rules, we don't even have a tie, a fucking tie. This is a nightmare, a total disgrace. I think if we had entered CSL calibre players we would at least have a tie by now, and I'm not kidding. This is our sixth season and we are getting worse, this is just unbelievable, you could not make this up if you tried. I have been following pro soccer since the early 70's here in Toronto, since the old Toronto Metros playing at Varsity Stadium I deserve better than this garbage I have put in my time I don't think I can take this anymore, MLSE shame on you, you fucking assholes for ruining a good thing, SHAME ON YOU!






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Red Rat
05-19-2012, 09:16 PM
0-10 next week

king dave
05-19-2012, 09:21 PM
12 Kozels....than you would not have a hard time believing a sight of the new TFC striker, just signed:http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l3vj0swxpP1qzl5apo1_500.jpg
Now that is semi-priceless.
KD.

king dave
05-19-2012, 09:27 PM
Here is what I think.
Try fucking winning you fucks!
KD.

Dv23
05-19-2012, 09:31 PM
We should euthanize everybody and start over again.

jabbronies
05-19-2012, 09:31 PM
Someone want to recap quickly for me?
Out of country and didn't get to watch

Dero scored less than a minute into the first half and then again later in the half to make it 2-0
DC pretty much dominated possession for most of the first half. We looked like kids playing against grown men. our guys were making back heel passes to the opposing team. I don't think we completed a fraction of our passes.

2nd half changes similar to the last game - Koevermans and Soolsma come in and the game changes in our favour. We score 2-1, but then minutes later DC score again to make it 3-1.

Overall it was the same old bullshit. We couldn't hold on to the ball, kept passing it to the opposing team, kept crossing in the ball to the opposing team, kept falling to the ground and loosing the ball. There was no heart in this game. That hustle that we had against Montreal was non-existent. I swear they were not even trying for the first 50 minutes.

As I said, game changed once Koevs and Nick came in, but it was too late. No one else, execpt maybe Julian and Avila, cared enough to play. Everyone else just fucked off and loafed around the pitch.

Richard
05-19-2012, 09:36 PM
If by some fluke we win on Wed I dont want to see any sort of jubilant celabration from the players, coaches maybe even fans. They need to be reminded they are 0-9 in the league.

Flipityflu
05-19-2012, 09:37 PM
i'm starting to believe we may not win a game this season.

flambe
05-19-2012, 09:39 PM
No one else, execpt maybe Julian and Avila, cared enough to play. Everyone else just fucked off and loafed around the pitch.

This has been a recurring issue with us for far too long. I honestly can't blame winter et al for everything (not that they don't deserve critism however). Our players have had far too little heart across multiple seasons and it pisses me off. At least play for your own pride!

Roogsy
05-19-2012, 09:40 PM
The good: Soolsma continues to impress & Koevs scored, maybe it will get him going.

The bad: The league season is done. We have to go something like 12-9-4 to have a chance at playoffs. That's 4 losses the rest of the season, no more. A near impossibility with 25 games to go. The ACC/CCL is all there is left to play for.

Roogsy
05-19-2012, 09:41 PM
If by some fluke we win on Wed I dont want to see any sort of jubilant celabration from the players, coaches maybe even fans. They need to be reminded they are 0-9 in the league.

Would be nice to acknowledge the fans for once.

cochrdoc
05-19-2012, 09:44 PM
This team would have a hard time winning games in the usl league.We have given up how many goals this year and 200 hundred last year.There are managers out there who can turn this around we need to find one now and start overhauling the roster . To many players are put on a pedalstool and have not shown the can win in this league.Vancouver would be a much better representative for the Canadian championships.If winter is not let go in the next 24 hours it will be ashame. He does not know what it is going to take to be successful in this league.

TFC Cityboy
05-19-2012, 09:56 PM
Day 1 supporter, me...$50 deposit club and I just don't care anymore.
MLSE, how did you fuck the dog so badly that we come to this?

An embarassment from top to bottom led by a coach who thinks tactics are small mints and a club run by a bunch of guys who know fuck all about the game.
MLS may need to step in here and ask some serious questions as to the running of this joke of a Football Club.

Fuck Wednesday- can't be arsed...how embarassing is it to be 'Champions' if we win, with a fucking 0-9 record of futility in the league.

Whoop
05-19-2012, 10:09 PM
I agree with the sentiment.

How can you take a competition seriously - as much as I do love it - when a team that is 0-9 can be the Champions of Canada?

The problem is if TFC wins it, it will give everyone a false sense of security. When it shouldn't.

TFC USA
05-19-2012, 10:11 PM
Told you.

We wanked away at a positive-ish result in the CCL and now we're back to reality.

Fire Winter.

lerxst
05-19-2012, 10:13 PM
Day 1 supporter, me...$50 deposit club and I just don't care anymore.
MLSE, how did you fuck the dog so badly that we come to this?

An embarassment from top to bottom led by a coach who thinks tactics are small mints and a club run by a bunch of guys who know fuck all about the game.
MLS may need to step in here and ask some serious questions as to the running of this joke of a Football Club.

Fuck Wednesday- can't be arsed...how embarassing is it to be 'Champions' if we win, with a fucking 0-9 record of futility in the league.

It'd be kinda funny actually. Imagine how badly Vancouver would feel?

"Holy shit. We just lost to potentially the worst team in MLS history. What the fuck just happened?"

Toronto
05-19-2012, 10:22 PM
"I don't know it anymore," Koevermans said after the game. "It's so frustrating -- you're back in the game, and one minute later it's gone.
"We're setting a record that we're the worst team in the world, and it's painful."


WORST TEAM IN THE WORLD he says.

lerxst
05-19-2012, 10:24 PM
"I don't know it anymore," Koevermans said after the game. "It's so frustrating -- you're back in the game, and one minute later it's gone.
"We're setting a record that we're the worst team in the world, and it's painful."


WORST TEAM IN THE WORLD he says.

I just howled after reading that. Awesome.

Richard
05-19-2012, 10:25 PM
"I don't know it anymore," Koevermans said after the game. "It's so frustrating -- you're back in the game, and one minute later it's gone.
"We're setting a record that we're the worst team in the world, and it's painful."


WORST TEAM IN THE WORLD he says.

I dont disagree, TFC might be the worst managed organization in the world.

Whoop
05-19-2012, 10:29 PM
Think about it, when was the last time a 1st division team in the world didn't win a game?

It would be interesting to find the worst 1st division teams ever.

West220Side
05-19-2012, 10:29 PM
My version of "My list of keepers:"

----------------------------X----------------------------
------------------------Kocic/Frei------------------------
Eckersley-------X------------------Emory-------------X--
---X-----------Cann---------------Henry----------Morgan
--------------------------Frings--------------------------
-------------------------Stinson--------------------------
---------------X----------------------X-------------------
--------------Avila------------------Silva-----------------
Soolsma-------------------------------------------Johnson
Lambe-----------------------------------------------X----
------------------------Koevermans----------------------
-----------------------------X----------------------------

Out -

de Guzman - don't care if he's stuck here for a year. id still send him back to spain.
Plata - hasn't brought that 'spark' he brought to the table last season.
Hall - overpaid for what he's bringing.
Aceval - hardly the 'savior' that he was made out to be. much more prefer the cann & henry pairing.
Dunfield - whats he making again? maybe a bench player.


Honorable Mention -

Harden - doesn't make much. provides good depth. 50/50 stay or go.
Makubuya - academy product. got signed. maybe he needs a loan. maybe he's not good enough.
Cordon - definitely needs to be loaned out for some playing time.
Lindsay - shame on the injury. what to do. what to do.
Burgos Jr - havn't seen a lot of him. panic buy?
Roberts - got no problem with him. still in highschool! shame we had to rush him into the senior team.
Williams - could be good cover if he comes back from injury. whats he make though?
Maund - havnt seen a lot of him. gotta see more.


Stay -


Frei - nothing against the guy. two good keepers. no complaints.
Kocic - same as frei. two good keepers. no complaints.
Eckersley - always consistant. good runs up the wings. sometimes gets burned. frings covers him well.
Cann - brought back some stability to our defensive line. good pairing with henry.
Emory - looks good on the left side. could develop well throughout the years. decent mls centerback with time.
Henry - big. good header. getting some good first team experience.
Morgan - came through well. playing well. still learning. already a good mls quality leftback. progressing well.
Frings - 'field marshall frings' brings stability to the pitch. growing old. hope we're looking for a replacement.
Stinson - kid looks good. if I was him id have my eyes glued to frings and hopefully learn something.
Avila - looked strong all season. stronger then last. needs help with finishing.
Silva - good prospect. hope he continues to develop.
Lambe - paul mariner must be laughing the way this guy turned out to play. been strong in the absence of soolsma.
Soolsma - started off as a reserve/bench player. learned how to beat mls defenders and now he's a starter.
Koevermans - knows how to find the back of the net. whoelse does? but slow, and fat. who said that ;)
Johnson - decent mls striker. transitioning into a winger well. doesnt play the midfield spot to well. hope he isn't getting to off put with the club. poor guy.


counted to double check. hopefully I didnt miss anyone. edit: yep 28/28.

Auzzy
05-19-2012, 10:39 PM
Toronto FC website very quiet so far, nothing posted there post-game. I wonder WTF is going on there. Not that I could stomach listening to any post-game interviews, but still interesting.

Man this is such a shit show. Even when I think Winter should be fired, I can't imagine any scenario for this screwed-up club to orchestrate that in a way to make things better, or to even give me any hope. The re-arranging of deck chairs last week only got us more worried. So are we going to have a Professional Engineer, with a background in arena development & management (Anselmi), decide 0-9 is the limit, we will improve our team performance by firing the coach; this person is is the proper interim coach/manager; and this person is the proper long-term replacement? Are they going to hire another consultant to tell them who to fire & who to hire?

I don't know how you can move forward with an 0-9 record, while playing decent in CCL cup play at the same time, and under management that is already on their 6th head coach (and how many hundred players?) in 6 years, and in the midst of an ownership change.

West220Side
05-19-2012, 10:40 PM
Toronto FC website very quiet so far, nothing posted there post-game. I wonder WTF is going on there. Not that I could stomach listening to any post-game interviews, but still interesting.


http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/05/19/adrian-cann-may-19-2012

here you go.

Whoop
05-19-2012, 10:46 PM
So what is it deKlerk's fault?

Auzzy
05-19-2012, 10:51 PM
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/05/19/adrian-cann-may-19-2012

here you go.

OK, thanks!


And I think the "ditch this and that player" posts after an 0-9 game are a joke. We have gotten rid of so many players that went on to play well elsewhere. There is no point even talking about individual players w/o seeing them under a proper coach, proper management, proper ownership, with some semblance of game strategy that will work in MLS. I mean, there are a few obvious things, like Dunfield shouldn't be playing & definitely not starting; we still need a top general CB who not only plays well, but can organize the whole shit show back there; etc. Other than that, there's just no use harping on individual players, considering the total garbage environment they find themselves in.

Johnson scores bunches of goals in CCL but can't find the net in MLS if his life depends on it. Defense & defensive midfield play decent vs. some pretty good attackers in Vancouver, and then play like utter shite tonight. WTF is that?

DangerRed
05-19-2012, 10:53 PM
Danny's interview - wow. Sorry guys, Winter has to be fired, and now it's urgent. He might not be the worst coach in the world, but he's definitely the worst TFC has ever had. His interview too, he just looks broken. It's done and someone else needs to come in to pick up the pieces.

Im not even angry anymore, just sad.

sully
05-19-2012, 10:56 PM
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/05/19/adrian-cann-may-19-2012

here you go.

Winter said "we played well". What a bloody circus. No way I'm going down there on wednesday to watch this team in the 'canadian final' - just makes a farce of it.

Abou Sky
05-19-2012, 11:04 PM
We should euthanize everybody and start over again.

Ya, pretty much my thoughts too...

sully
05-19-2012, 11:06 PM
So are we going to have a Professional Engineer, with a background in arena development & management (Anselmi), decide 0-9 is the limit, we will improve our team performance by firing the coach; this person is is the proper interim coach/manager; and this person is the proper long-term replacement? Are they going to hire another consultant to tell them who to fire & who to hire?



this is worth repeating. I don't know if Winter is such a bad coach or what's going on really but clearly there are systemic problems with this club that we've seen time and time again. firing winter isn't necessarily the answer...I don't know what is but how many coaches do we have to go through till we look elsewhere for changes...

Roogsy
05-19-2012, 11:16 PM
I feel for Danny watching that interview. He looks beaten. This is a man who has played in the highest levels of soccer on the planet. He could easily walk in, cash a cheque like Mista & phone it in & yet he is giving us his all.

These players deserve better. And most definitively the fans deserve better. If they don't want to do irreparable damage to the canvases of this club something has to happen immediately.

jloome
05-19-2012, 11:21 PM
this is worth repeating. I don't know if Winter is such a bad coach or what's going on really but clearly there are systemic problems with this club that we've seen time and time again. firing winter isn't necessarily the answer...I don't know what is but how many coaches do we have to go through till we look elsewhere for changes...

It wasn't lack of effort or tactics tonight; our players just aren't good enough. We had 18 shots. 18. To 9 for DC. And yet we managed to get FOUR on frame.

I no longer believe the coach is the problem. No coach can cause his players to perform to this level of ineptitude. The problem is the whole organization and the inability to build a winning squad. It's just rotten to the core.

jloome
05-19-2012, 11:24 PM
These players deserve better..

Why? What miracle will a new coach provide to turn 18 shots into more than one goal?

Up until tonight I've bought the "it's on winter" narrative, but I'm done. this is a deeper problem, and it starts with who we have on the field, because they're statistically in half the games this season, but can't put goals away.

This goes down to building a loser and I'm not convinced he's had the freedom -- certainly suggested, again, by Jason DeVos tonight -- to fix the defence. If we keep giving up easy goals, all the coaching in the world won't mean shit.

So why give the players a break, Roogsy? They had 18 shots tonight. 18. And they managed one goal. That's pathetic.

iy12l
05-19-2012, 11:29 PM
I heard some of the players were crying... idc how bad ML$E is but the previous coaches NEVER had a 0-9 start! Fire Winter already!!!

jazzy
05-19-2012, 11:33 PM
Chelsea played today?
no it was actually the italian squad in the champ league final and hid the whole game in a defensive shell,..to eventually bore us all to death and then win........when we were sleeping.......great now everyone will think boring defensive football is the key to winning......opps ,....prekiball?...just relating comment to the disgusting tfc game i watched , ..mods go ahead and delete the thread because theyr'e ain't nothing left to talk about with TFC...oh and for all the haters go Dero

ArmenJBX
05-19-2012, 11:36 PM
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/05/19/danny-koevermans-may-19-2012

Every. Single. One. Of. You. NEED. To. Watch. This. Video.

BHTC Mike
05-19-2012, 11:37 PM
Think about it, when was the last time a 1st division team in the world didn't win a game?

It would be interesting to find the worst 1st division teams ever.

Tasmania Berlin were pretty bad IIRC. Early'60s Bundesliga.

jazzy
05-19-2012, 11:42 PM
The question isn't when will Winter be fired. it's when are we going to get new owners.

never...ain't happenning,....this town is full of $$hucksters who don't give a shit about anything quality unless it proceeds to give them a giant materialistic reward....passionless frauds......when the team dies, we'll have a giant fan base without a team,......what is a miracle is how such a sure thing,...moneymaker could be sooo fooked up and driven into the ground..and fearfully maybe lost for good!!!.......and these mlse giants of industry continue to gloat and pat themselves on the back.....mindboggling

Auzzy
05-19-2012, 11:50 PM
Way to motivate your opponents: http://www.dcunited.com/news/2012/05/united-puts-trash-talk-in-its-place

So, was JDG the captain tonight? Apparently he didn't give a post-game interview.

And I don't even want the harp on the individual players with the above comments. The team is just one gigantic clusterfuck.

Roogsy
05-19-2012, 11:51 PM
this is worth repeating. I don't know if Winter is such a bad coach or what's going on really but clearly there are systemic problems with this club that we've seen time and time again. firing winter isn't necessarily the answer...I don't know what is but how many coaches do we have to go through till we look elsewhere for changes...

There is no doubt that the problems starts at the top. However the biggest failing of MLSE executive has been their inability to hire the right guys for the right positions. Ie. Winter should have gone to the Academy not the first team.

The problem here is that MLSE executives are near impossible to get rid of. But there is a sliver of hope. IF...that's is a big IF...fans and supporters collectively act in a large-scale impactful demonstration of displeasure, it is possible to take advantage of this very unique situation where there is a change in ownership where we may have some influence on the direction this club takes going forward. This opportunity may not come again.

However, I believe there is not enough will to do what it takes to truly help this club. There is an air of acceptance that surrounds this club and it hurts, not helps, the cause. Complacency will be this clubs undoing.

tiberius
05-19-2012, 11:54 PM
this is worth repeating. I don't know if Winter is such a bad coach or what's going on really but clearly there are systemic problems with this club that we've seen time and time again. firing winter isn't necessarily the answer...I don't know what is but how many coaches do we have to go through till we look elsewhere for changes...

Winter? De Gooseman? Dunfield? Plata? Why is anyone harping about any of them? It is useless. Until the 3 wise men are gone - and I mean gone - there is no hope for this franchise, the players or the supporters.

Queue the Jackson music:

"Sit yourself down, take a seat
All you gotta do is repeat after me.

ABC
Easy as
one, two, three
Or simple as
Do re mi
ABC"

Anselmi, Bierne and Cochrane

This organization has been smashed to pieces by Anselmi, Bierne and Cochrane. Until they are gone, gone, gone and a president who knows mls football is put into place, everyone, especially supporters are just whistling dixie... all that can be done at this point is withhold all financial considerations to this club and push hard for the 3 wise men to be shown the door.

Someone earlier tonight claimed that MLSE has stolen our money the last six years. I would say that is not so. They stole our money in years 2,3,4. In years five and 6 anyone who pays MLSE is just an accomplice to the crime. We are aiding and abetting the most shameful excuse for soccer management IN THE WORLD. As Koevs patiently explains to those who are a bit slow: "We're setting a record that we're the worst team in the world"

It is clear as day: IT IS NOT THE PLAYERS AND IT IS NOT THE COACHING STAFF...

... simple as one, two, three, ABC

Red CB Toronto
05-20-2012, 12:00 AM
here is what i think.
try fucking winning you fucks!
kd.

onward to baltimore. We shall never walk alone once there. Enjoy your golf kd.

tiberius
05-20-2012, 12:07 AM
The problem here is that MLSE executives are near impossible to get rid of. But there is a sliver of hope. IF...that's is a big IF...fans and supporters collectively act in a large-scale impactful demonstration of displeasure, it is possible to take advantage of this very unique situation where there is a change in ownership where we may have some influence on the direction this club takes going forward. This opportunity may not come again.

You are bang on - there is an opportunity...

Any idea who the key influencers are at Rogers, particularly on the sports side? The Bell organization is such a beast - I can't imagine anyone would know where to start with them...

Roogsy
05-20-2012, 12:09 AM
Way to motivate your opponents: http://www.dcunited.com/news/2012/05/united-puts-trash-talk-in-its-place

So, was JDG the captain tonight? Apparently he didn't give a post-game interview.

And I don't even want the harp on the individual players with the above comments. The team is just one gigantic clusterfuck.

I mentioned motivation this week and was laughed in some circles on this board, as happens frequently until I am eventually vindicated. You can be sure I am saving this article for the next time someone tries to claim opposing team comments aren't put up on the bulletin board and used to motivate a club to a result.

jazzy
05-20-2012, 12:09 AM
honestly much respect to the players that are dieing on this team......Koevermans interview destroys me,....you know all these guys wish they were somewhere else....these guys care and are simply fooked up with this disgrace...I support these guys 100%,...and HATE MLSE.......for this disrespect shown to us it's customers and players/and the coaching profession........what a jeckell/hyde...how does one support the players and shit on the mgmt....sorry but thats how I feel......

Jack
05-20-2012, 12:12 AM
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/05/19/danny-koevermans-may-19-2012

Every. Single. One. Of. You. NEED. To. Watch. This. Video.
I love Danny Koev. Best player interview I've seen in a long time.

I want an ugly win. I want to win with only defence. I don't want "we played alright". Fuck this. He's right. It's horrible. Worst team in the world. From our own player.

Fuck me.

Auzzy
05-20-2012, 12:26 AM
I mentioned motivation this week and was laughed in some circles on this board, as happens frequently until I am eventually vindicated. You can be sure I am saving this article for the next time someone tries to claim opposing team comments aren't put up on the bulletin board and used to motivate a club to a result.

I'm so happy to hear that you feel vindicated.

Ajax TFC
05-20-2012, 12:30 AM
There are two types of players on this team: there are those I feel bad for, and those who deserve to be on a team this bad. The ones I feel bad for are the ones that are actually good and putting all they have out on the pitch. A total of three names come to mind there: Frings, Koevermans, Avila. De Guzman is good but rarely puts it all out so he deserves to be on this team. The rest aren't fit to play on any MLS team.

reggie
05-20-2012, 12:31 AM
0 and fucking 9...the worst team in the history of toronto sports.how can a team in this shite league not even get a point in 9 games,,,are u kidding me,,HEADS MUST ROLL,AW,PM,PB,TA,all must go,you fuckers may have my money in yr vault now,but you wont see another penny of mine until at least we are a 500 team.

reggie
05-20-2012, 12:35 AM
please do not win weds,how can this club lift that cup over there heads.

asterix606
05-20-2012, 01:29 AM
Glad to see DeRo score two in this game! Perfect! He is an amazing player and our best chance of making the next World Cup!

Amazing goal in the 1st by Dero header and his whole game.

MLSE, you are idiots! What's new...

Lets fill BMO for all qualifying games!!

asterix606
05-20-2012, 02:08 AM
I also think that all season ticket holders should completely stay out of buying next season tickets. I am for two season tickets!

Its the best thing that we can do for this club! We cant allow MLSE to maintain another shit organization like the Leafs and Raptors.

We cannot let history repeat itself!

Cashcleaner
05-20-2012, 03:22 AM
I don't even know where to begin with this loss. There's just so much I could say, but most of it's already been covered.

We're an embarrassment. A disgrace. A laughingstock.

The thing is, NOTHING you or I can say would even come close to the words Koevermans had to say during the post-game interview. The man looked like he was on a verge of tears talking about just how completely fucked up things have become at TFC.

I am so sick of this shitty team with it's shitty players being coached by it's shitty manager with a shitty Front Office and shitty owners.

ANSELMI OUT NOW.

We need to sort this club out starting at the top and working down.

Yohan
05-20-2012, 03:49 AM
I'm more upset at myself for thinking that TFC has turned it around and that TFC might have been able to get a result at DC. Silly me.

tfc007
05-20-2012, 04:43 AM
I am going to bring my season tickets to the fucken town hall meetings this year and I am going to throw them at Tom Salami and his puppet Paul burned or shove them up their asses but I am afraid they might enjoy that! This club is a joke we have to reverse the clock back to 2007 and start this club the proper way and thats with new ownership not MAPLE LEAF SPORTS AND FUCKEN GREED!

Waggy
05-20-2012, 06:39 AM
Poor Danny K. And Johnson. And Kocic. And everyone else who really gives a fuck (I think most of the guys do)

When we started 0 and 5 I said I wanted 5 more games to see Winter before saying he should be canned. While I don't think he is THE problem, it's clear he's a beaten man. For everyone in involved it's time to part ways. I don't really know where TFC goes from here though. The people who have been making the decisions are the problem with the club, and it doesn't seem like they are going anywhere. May be time to start actually thinking about the "protest outside the rogers building on a friday afternoon" thing. I've supported some bad teams in Toronto. Some really bad ones. This TFC team is by far the worst, and by far the most depressing. It's unconscionable how bad they are in such an even league. I was watching the DC feed of the game yesterday, and at various times during the game they would espouse from their POV what's wrong with the club. They hit on:

Terrible executive decisions
Ownership meddling
Woeful lack of leadership

They were discussing problems over 5 years, not just this year. Frings seems like a general, but we need someone the young guys can rally around, not just fear/respect. We need a coach who will prove to them he will play whichever way he thinks gives the best chance for results (even if playing the beautiful game is his preference). We need a coach who can make decisions independent of MLSE and their propaganda arm. I don't know where we find this player or this coach. All I know is that Anselmi has even less of an idea than I do. God fucking damn it.

Furtado91
05-20-2012, 06:50 AM
I have to say this is the lowest ive ever seen the boards. This is definitely tough to absorb right now. it makes you kind of wonder about the whole against modern football protests, that major corporations are ruining the game. in this case ML$E cared more about money than the actual game and the history behind it. and Now it makes soccer look bad here in Toronto. you Can thank ML$E for givng soccer here a bad rep.

I just have to thank ML$E for essentially fucking up the chance to have the great sport here. this is sad to see something we love being killed week in week out just so they can make a quick buck. the only thing I think that can save this whole farce, is having an owner who is sports orientated and loves the sport to be behind it all the way.

123 elite
05-20-2012, 06:58 AM
played 43 won 6, drawn 15, Lost 22. Twenty two! 33 pts from a possible 129.

How much longer?

Waggy
05-20-2012, 07:05 AM
played 43 won 6, drawn 15, Lost 22. Twenty two! 33 pts from a possible 129.

How much longer?

Why the short time period?


Played 154, won 40, lost 67 and drew 47. 167 points out of a potential 462.

We've never had a positive goal differential

We've never qualified for the playoffs

We've had 6 coaches, why is Winter such a huge problem for you as opposed to the people who hired him? Clearly the problem is bigger than Winter and his season and a 1/4 as coach. Especially since after year 1 when we split the Managers role and created a General Manager and tasked them to find players for the coach.


Edit: Just for shits n giggles, this is the entire Bayern Munich management staff



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Jupp Heynckes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupp_Heynckes)
Head coach



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Hermann Gerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Gerland)
Assistant coach



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Peter Hermann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hermann_(footballer))
Assistant coach



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Flag_of_Croatia.svg/22px-Flag_of_Croatia.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia) Toni Tapalović
Goalkeeping coach



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Philipp Laux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Laux)
Mental coach



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Thomas Wilhelmi
Fitness coach



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Brazil.svg/22px-Flag_of_Brazil.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil) Marcelo Martins
Fitness coach



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Andreas Kornmayer
Fitness coach



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) Jos van Dijk
Training coordinator



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) Marcel Bout
Match Analysis



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) Max Reckers

Video analysis



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Dirk Anders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Anders)
Chief scout





This is the entire Toronto FC management staff



Aron Winter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aron_Winter) - Head Coach and Technical Director
Jim Brennan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Brennan) - First Assistant Coach
Jason Bent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Bent) - Assistant Coach
Stewart Kerr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_Kerr) - Goalkeeping Coach
Paul Mariner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Mariner) - Director of Player Development
Bob de Klerk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_de_Klerk) - Technical Manager
Earl Cochrane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Cochrane) - Director of Team and Player Operations
Thomas Rongen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Rongen) - TFC Academy Director
Danny Dichio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Dichio) - Senior Academy Head Coach



Malcolm Phillips - Equipment Manager
Carmelo Lobue - Athletic Therapist
Shawn Jeffers - Assistant Athletic Therapist
Marcelo Casal - Massage Therapist
Dr. Ira Smith - Team Physician
Corey Wray - Team Operations
Mike Masaro - Media Relations



Why the fuck do we have a Director of Player Development, a Technical Manager, and a Director of Team and Player Operations? Aren't those all the same fucking thing? No wonder we're so fucked. We're a bloated bureaucracy. What we need is some fucking efficiency and some accountability. I'd like to see that staff list get trimmed down by at least 4 or 5 jobs. There's no way in hell Toronto FC needs 17 people to come up with an 0-9-0 season and Bayern needs 12 to go to the Champions League Final. Just fucking insane.

Chevy
05-20-2012, 07:23 AM
I'm so happy to hear that you feel vindicated.

LOL. At least we know one 'supporter' is happy with 0-9

123 elite
05-20-2012, 07:26 AM
Edit: Just for shits n giggles, this is the entire Bayern Munich management staff



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Jupp Heynckes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupp_Heynckes)
Head coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Hermann Gerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Gerland)
Assistant coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Peter Hermann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hermann_(footballer))
Assistant coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Flag_of_Croatia.svg/22px-Flag_of_Croatia.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia) Toni Tapalović
Goalkeeping coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Philipp Laux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Laux)
Mental coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Thomas Wilhelmi
Fitness coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Brazil.svg/22px-Flag_of_Brazil.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil) Marcelo Martins
Fitness coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Andreas Kornmayer
Fitness coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) Jos van Dijk
Training coordinator


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) Marcel Bout
Match Analysis


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) Max Reckers
Video analysis


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Dirk Anders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Anders)
Chief scout






we do have a mental coach though. a very mental one.

Chevy
05-20-2012, 07:26 AM
I love Danny Koev. Best player interview I've seen in a long time.

I want an ugly win. I want to win with only defence. I don't want "we played alright". Fuck this. He's right. It's horrible. Worst team in the world. From our own player.

Fuck me.

+1. Danny K's stock just went way up in my books after watching this.

tfcleeds
05-20-2012, 07:46 AM
There are just no more words. I can't say anything that hasn't been said before. This club is just one giant clusterfuck the way it's being run right now (and indeed, since the very beginning). We are seeing in a very ugly way how deep the problems are at this club, and how years of mismanagement are continuing to take their toll. And I don't want to hear the sunshine pumpers go on about how winning the Canadian Championship on Wed. means not all is lost, and we're back in the CCL, etc. When an 0-9 club are "champions" of anything, it is a joke. I don't see how anyone can be satisfied with that.

I just really hope that Belogers decide that they don't want TFC as part of their sports property portfolio and sell it to someone who is passionate about the game, and not just profits. It really seems to be the only way forward for this club.

Canary_canuck
05-20-2012, 08:03 AM
Winter? De Gooseman? Dunfield? Plata? Why is anyone harping about any of them? It is useless. Until the 3 wise men are gone - and I mean gone - there is no hope for this franchise, the players or the supporters.

Queue the Jackson music:

"Sit yourself down, take a seat
All you gotta do is repeat after me.

ABC
Easy as
one, two, three
Or simple as
Do re mi
ABC"

Anselmi, Bierne and Cochrane

This organization has been smashed to pieces by Anselmi, Bierne and Cochrane. Until they are gone, gone, gone and a president who knows mls football is put into place, everyone, especially supporters are just whistling dixie... all that can be done at this point is withhold all financial considerations to this club and push hard for the 3 wise men to be shown the door.

Someone earlier tonight claimed that MLSE has stolen our money the last six years. I would say that is not so. They stole our money in years 2,3,4. In years five and 6 anyone who pays MLSE is just an accomplice to the crime. We are aiding and abetting the most shameful excuse for soccer management IN THE WORLD. As Koevs patiently explains to those who are a bit slow: "We're setting a record that we're the worst team in the world"

It is clear as day: IT IS NOT THE PLAYERS AND IT IS NOT THE COACHING STAFF...

... simple as one, two, three, ABC
remembering the optimism and fun at the beginning. My middle son and I bought half season packages ( my job entailed a lot of travel so fulls were not worthwhile ) in Dec before the first season. So we were among the earliest committed supporters. In seasons 3 and 4 I would argue with the rep that the fans were being taken for granted but in essence he shrugged and said you can be replaced. Finally we bailed before season 5. That means we, by your definition , are not accomplices but it really saddened me as a supporter of professional football for over 50 years. I don't blame the players ( with exceptions such as deGuzman ) and my heart bleeds for them and even on-field management ( look how Carver has done at Newcastle in his post TFC managerial career ). Danny's comments show that he cares. This is ALL on MLSE and I have been saying that for four years. I just could not stomach giving them my tacit support any longer. Maybe I will be back but not until top management is replaced with dedicated football fans who know what they are doing. Having written all this I doubt MLSE will pay any attention because they probably stopped reading fans' posts a long time ago.

canadian_bhoy
05-20-2012, 08:04 AM
Maybe MLSE are trying to lose on purpose so that attendance will drop below the league minimum and they can relocate to Miami.

OgtheDim
05-20-2012, 08:10 AM
We are dealing with what happens when a company is being sold.........the division that has issues just gets worse while the managers (Anselmi etc) worry about keeping their jobs.

None of this is going to be fixed until Rogers and Bell come in. So 2014 until they have their management team in place.

Until then, although they will probably change managers, and mess around with players, its not going to be fixed. We might win a game or two but we will be crap.

We will have a decent team in 2015.

Until then..........

tfcleeds
05-20-2012, 08:12 AM
Came across this video yesterday - it's a Transworld Sport feature on TFC that I'm sure many have seen dating back to Year 1. I don't think anyone watching this could have envisioned we'd still be struggling to find our way in MLS in Year 6. Some of the quotes - especially by Beirne - what a joke they seem now. I see that crowd at the first home game now, and just feel.....sad.

hE6db5CsybY

Furtado91
05-20-2012, 08:21 AM
^^^^^ ML$E is serious about the sport.....>_<. oh man i tell you its amazing hearing that ahaahha. here we are in year 6 and it sure as hell does not look like they are serious about the sport.

Chris Wren
05-20-2012, 08:47 AM
Winter must go. This team is the most gutless I've ever seen. On another note, the homophobic comments at the beginning of this thread should be removed. I find it odd that people get upset at name calling but find it acceptable to degrade a transgender beauty contestant for a laugh.

Rene Kingsriver
05-20-2012, 09:06 AM
Winter must go. This team is the most gutless I've ever seen. On another note, the homophobic comments at the beginning of this thread should be removed. I find it odd that people get upset at name calling but find it acceptable to degrade a transgender beauty contestant for a laugh.

seconded, if you wouldn't make remarks like that about a woman don't make them about a woman who used to be a man

jabbronies
05-20-2012, 09:07 AM
I love Danny Koev. Best player interview I've seen in a long time.

I want an ugly win. I want to win with only defence. I don't want "we played alright". Fuck this. He's right. It's horrible. Worst team in the world. From our own player.

Fuck me.

I wish they played his full interview. I'm sure there was more said.

Rene Kingsriver
05-20-2012, 09:10 AM
I love Danny Koev. Best player interview I've seen in a long time.

I want an ugly win. I want to win with only defence. I don't want "we played alright". Fuck this. He's right. It's horrible. Worst team in the world. From our own player.

Fuck me.

He sure put Asif in his place

Flipityflu
05-20-2012, 09:12 AM
surely there is a oil sheik or Russian gazilionare who's life time ambition is to own a Canadian team in the MLS. please.

ManUtd4ever
05-20-2012, 09:15 AM
Danny's interview - wow. Sorry guys, Winter has to be fired, and now it's urgent. He might not be the worst coach in the world, but he's definitely the worst TFC has ever had. His interview too, he just looks broken. It's done and someone else needs to come in to pick up the pieces.

Im not even angry anymore, just sad.

This. Even if Anselmi doesn't have the authority to hire a permanent replacement, Winter must be removed from the sidelines of the first team. Not next week, not next month, now.

ryan
05-20-2012, 09:20 AM
surely there is a oil sheik or Russian gazilionare who's life time ambition is to own a Canadian team in the MLS. please.

We need a big tifo that's a For Sale sign. Perhaps that'll get some attention

Beach_Red
05-20-2012, 09:37 AM
+1. Danny K's stock just went way up in my books after watching this.

How much longer do you think he'll be here? TFC has had a lot of good players over the years - some like Guevara stay for a while, some like Laurent Robert and Olivier Tebily take a quick look around and see how badly the place is run and get out quick. Some (sorry, but it has to be said) like DeRo try to fight with the idiots running the team to make it better here, but the players always lose those fights.

Abou Sky
05-20-2012, 09:40 AM
Danny's interview - wow. Sorry guys, Winter has to be fired, and now it's urgent. He might not be the worst coach in the world, but he's definitely the worst TFC has ever had. His interview too, he just looks broken. It's done and someone else needs to come in to pick up the pieces.

Im not even angry anymore, just sad.

Don't know if I am the only one thinking like this, but 0-9-0 is like a baseball team starting the season 0-45 or a hockey team starting 0-24, this is just unreal.

I am with others about not being angry but sad.

Watching Koevermans makes me want to cry. I want to scoop him up like I would my son and hold him and let him 'cry it out'

I feel SOOOO badly for our boys.

They know it isn't them but the tactics they are FORCED to play.

Really, a 4-2-4 formation can't win in a U11 game, nevermind a pro game.

It's not us that deserve better, our boys deserve better!

DangerRed
05-20-2012, 09:41 AM
I have to say this is the lowest ive ever seen the boards. This is definitely tough to absorb right now. it makes you kind of wonder about the whole against modern football protests, that major corporations are ruining the game.

It's just THIS corporation. Since 1996, AEG Entertainment has held ownership in Chicago Fire, San Jose Earthquakes, New York/New Jersey MetroStars and D.C. United. Currently, AEG is the investor/operator of both the Galaxy and the Houston Dynamo (25% now owned by Oscar de la Hoya). Over the years, each of those teams, including up to present day in many cases, has been a success. You'll say, "oh, but AEG founded the league, the guy's a soccer pro" - and some of that's true. But MLSE has tons of sporting experience. It just would be nice if they also had some winning to go along with it.

UltraSuperMegaMo
05-20-2012, 09:55 AM
The summer's finally here, it's time for Winter to go!

Watching the game, I think I'm starting to like DC. They've got a good mix of players. TFC should try to do something like that...

jimiv
05-20-2012, 10:05 AM
Edit: Just for shits n giggles, this is the entire Bayern Munich management staff



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Jupp Heynckes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupp_Heynckes)
Head coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Hermann Gerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Gerland)
Assistant coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Peter Hermann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hermann_%28footballer%29)
Assistant coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Flag_of_Croatia.svg/22px-Flag_of_Croatia.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia) Toni Tapalović
Goalkeeping coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Philipp Laux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Laux)
Mental coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Thomas Wilhelmi
Fitness coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Brazil.svg/22px-Flag_of_Brazil.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil) Marcelo Martins
Fitness coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Andreas Kornmayer
Fitness coach


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) Jos van Dijk
Training coordinator


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) Marcel Bout
Match Analysis


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) Max Reckers
Video analysis


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) Dirk Anders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Anders)
Chief scout




This is the entire Toronto FC management staff



Aron Winter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aron_Winter) - Head Coach and Technical Director
Jim Brennan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Brennan) - First Assistant Coach
Jason Bent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Bent) - Assistant Coach
Stewart Kerr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_Kerr) - Goalkeeping Coach
Paul Mariner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Mariner) - Director of Player Development
Bob de Klerk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_de_Klerk) - Technical Manager
Earl Cochrane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Cochrane) - Director of Team and Player Operations
Thomas Rongen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Rongen) - TFC Academy Director
Danny Dichio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Dichio) - Senior Academy Head Coach



Malcolm Phillips - Equipment Manager
Carmelo Lobue - Athletic Therapist
Shawn Jeffers - Assistant Athletic Therapist
Marcelo Casal - Massage Therapist
Dr. Ira Smith - Team Physician
Corey Wray - Team Operations
Mike Masaro - Media Relations




Bayern Munich have 3 fitness coaches and we have none? Perhaps thats why TFC strolls around the field.

Yohan
05-20-2012, 10:07 AM
It's just THIS corporation. Since 1996, AEG Entertainment has held ownership in Chicago Fire, San Jose Earthquakes, New York/New Jersey MetroStars and D.C. United. Currently, AEG is the investor/operator of both the Galaxy and the Houston Dynamo (25% now owned by Oscar de la Hoya). Over the years, each of those teams, including up to present day in many cases, has been a success. You'll say, "oh, but AEG founded the league, the guy's a soccer pro" - and some of that's true. But MLSE has tons of sporting experience. It just would be nice if they also had some winning to go along with it.
Hunt Sports Group too, though they have their share of detractors but at least HSG has won an MLS Cup

TFC Cityboy
05-20-2012, 10:07 AM
the fact that this thread is only 4 pages deep tells you the apathy of the fanbase. A year ago there would have been 10 pages by 11 pm last night.
I get the feeling many of us simply accept this and no longer care. Apathy is worse than anger for MLSE.

Yohan
05-20-2012, 10:08 AM
Bayern Munich have 3 fitness coaches and we have none? Perhaps thats why TFC strolls around the field.
to be fair it's not just a TFC problem. Most teams in MLS don't use a fitness coach. I don't know why.

thought Paul Winsper was one of the smartest hiring done by the FO

MartinUtd
05-20-2012, 10:20 AM
the fact that this thread is only 4 pages deep tells you the apathy of the fanbase. A year ago there would have been 10 pages by 11 pm last night.
I get the feeling many of us simply accept this and no longer care. Apathy is worse than anger for MLSE.


I read it, watched the Danny interview and have nothing to add that hasn't been said already. Maybe that's apathy.

TFC should release Danny and Torsten, it's the only humane thing to do. I feel bad for the players that still care.

Brooker
05-20-2012, 10:26 AM
MLSE should fine Danny K. Can you imagine? :D

Toronto_Bhoy
05-20-2012, 10:28 AM
thought Paul Winsper was one of the smartest hiring done by the FO

Totally agree Yohan.

I bet if you look at TFC performances immediately following Winsper's departure you will begin to see a decline.

This outfit currently looks and plays like a pub team.

69Chevy396
05-20-2012, 11:07 AM
Totally agree Yohan.

I bet if you look at TFC performances immediately following Winsper's departure you will begin to see a decline.

This outfit currently looks and plays like a pub team.


I dumped my season tickets so am no longer shelling out to the shills....only thing the RPB can do to help send a message to mlse ownership is to STOP chanting, singing, cheering. I know some of you would find this difficult cause it goes against the grain of team support, but this is precisely the reason you embrace it for a while....other teams, other leagues go through this and their supporters do things like turning their backs on the pitch, refusing to sing etc....you should time this around the next nationally televised game, or one that is broadcast in the US.....that will hurt mlse, and have an impact on negotiating their ad rights to the games.....the RPB helped create the excitement, now it may be wise to pause for a bit and see how apathy affects the team operation....just my thoughts

whyalwaysme11
05-20-2012, 11:12 AM
quick response to random comments
kocic has moments of brilliance buy would never have him as mu number one unfotunatly we are stuck...
chelsea played pure italian styles last night... and they got the job done.
i cant wait to see the concacaf email asking for more money for qualifier games... gonna be somewhat comical
and as always toronto till i die...
o and forza juve huge game today.

JuliquE
05-20-2012, 11:15 AM
We've had 6 coaches, why is Winter such a huge problem for you as opposed to the people who hired him? Clearly the problem is bigger than Winter and his season and a 1/4 as coach. Especially since after year 1 when we split the Managers role and created a General Manager and tasked them to find players for the coach.

Why the fuck do we have a Director of Player Development, a Technical Manager, and a Director of Team and Player Operations? Aren't those all the same fucking thing? No wonder we're so fucked. We're a bloated bureaucracy. What we need is some fucking efficiency and some accountability. I'd like to see that staff list get trimmed down by at least 4 or 5 jobs. There's no way in hell Toronto FC needs 17 people to come up with an 0-9-0 season and Bayern needs 12 to go to the Champions League Final. Just fucking insane.
There is certainly a contingent of supporters in agreement that changes need to start at the top, but I still felt the need to highlight your post and chime in.

You, earlier, pointed out that you were following the DC stream (as was I), where they touched on much of the same things we've been saying, over the clubs entire existence: meddling execs. and so on. I think that, with the hiring of Winter, they wanted to take up the appearance of changing the culture, but, the more things change, the more they remain the same.. unless you really demolish things; it's like trying to rebuild a house, after it's foundation has been severely compromised by fire.

When Winter was hired, there were already a few questions being asked about him not selecting Mariner and how that might play out .. well, there was much explaining to do about the various roles then, but we've seen how that ended up. More evidence of him being set up to fail is this Mantra of our vision and culture; we were so desperate, that we (he) had to cling to these principles for dear life. There have been many comparisons made with previous coaches, but, I think that what we're seeing now is how much easier exposed our systemic problems are, as Winter attempts a much more difficult and intricate task than any of his predecessors.. ergo, the massive lows.

Call me an apologist, if you like (probably am, tbh).. but, there has been one constant -- one bad apple, spoiling the bunch and piling more apples on top won't sort this out.

glaze
05-20-2012, 11:33 AM
the fact that this thread is only 4 pages deep tells you the apathy of the fanbase. A year ago there would have been 10 pages by 11 pm last night.
I get the feeling many of us simply accept this and no longer care. Apathy is worse than anger for MLSE.

As an SSH, and active reader of these threads, I wasn't even aware there was a game last night. Watching TFC on the road on a saturday isn't a high priority when there are so many other ways to enjoy a weekend. We've all discussed how hard it is to unload extra seats. In fact, I'm not even sure if I want TFC to win on wednesday. On one hand, CCL games are now the only meaningful ones TFC will play this year, on the other hand an 0-9 last place in the league team being your country's rep in the competition is a bit ridiculous. And unless attendance for those games drops to 5,000, MLSE will consider it a success, and a reason to not make sweeping changes on the field, in the front office, and in how they treat the SSH.

On paper, we're 0-9, but in reality we haven't won a league game for 2 MONTHS! Imagine the Leafs started a season like this. I don't know what ML$E is waiting for. Even if they're only worried about the money, at some point they have to realize the apathy that is setting in, and start worrying about renewals.

reggie
05-20-2012, 11:38 AM
maybe MLSE thought they were joining MLS(MULTIPLE LISTING SERVICE) 6 yrs ago so that they can sell there fucking condos.

billyfly
05-20-2012, 11:48 AM
How ironic that TFC has its own donut and they are donut and 9 to start the season?

ElvistheEvilScotsman
05-20-2012, 11:52 AM
I'd like to see an open letter to MLSE from the RPB President documenting our frustration and concern for the future stability of the club. I'd like to see us come up with a list of demands (fire the three wise men, sell the team etc) and all get behind it. We need to show we are dead serious about our demands.

Tell the fans if they want to show support to the demands wear a common color (black, green etc) to all home games indicating you will not be renewing your seasons seats unless the demands have been met.

ryan
05-20-2012, 12:28 PM
I'd like to see an open letter to MLSE from the RPB President documenting our frustration and concern for the future stability of the club. I'd like to see us come up with a list of demands (fire the three wise men, sell the team etc) and all get behind it. We need to show we are dead serious about our demands.

Tell the fans if they want to show support to the demands wear a common color (black, green etc) to all home games indicating you will not be renewing your seasons seats unless the demands have been met.

lol start wearing black shirts that say "Not renewing" until we get a whole swath of them, then the civilians will see those and perhaps be turned off too.

Mak
05-20-2012, 12:36 PM
I am adding my 2 cents here at the end. I have been a season ticket holder from day 1, and have barely missed a game since despite the heat I get. From my wife every week. I agree with many that changes have to happen at the top. MLSE and Anselmi care more about the food they provide us at every game, and merchandise sold than the on field product. The bureaucracy as stated earlier as well is unbelievable especially that most are not football people or football people who have not accomplished anything in the sport. Yet they are given these extremely cushy jobs, just like the old CSA, and are clueless. When Winter arrived I believed he was going to be the saviour. I still do. He arrived way too late to have an impact on the team and that is fact, and he inherited a bunch of hacks. But he is still surrounded by ineptitude around him. Just like Carver was. Look where Carver is now.
Secondly, the team really lacks quality. Outside of a few players, we do not have any MLS quality players, let alone professionals. You cannot expect much from Ashtone Morgan or Doneil Henry. Good young talents, but they are not starters. Developmental players. Kocic...well he is not Frei. He was in the CSL. Sure he makes the odd good save, but he is not a professional. Semi-pro at best. Can sucks crap,, Aceval is talented but has nobody to play wiy Most teams in the MLs, including Montreal and Vaancouver have much better scouting. How the he'll can Montreal bring in Italian players under the cap, and not DP's when we cannot. Or most other players bring in South American talents. who the fuck have we brougt in outside Guevera. He was the best player and talent that graced the pitch at BMO.
Bottom l

Mak
05-20-2012, 12:39 PM
Sorry for the grammar mistakes....writing quickly from my IPad. And very frustrated.

mclaren
05-20-2012, 12:46 PM
Didn't Barry Fry at Peterborough or Birmingham get some kind of voodoo-doctor into the stadium to get rid of the curse? We could do something like that? *getting desparate*

Jcm144
05-20-2012, 12:49 PM
I still can't believe this 0 and 9 start.......to think I thought TFC had a chance to make the playoffs with this lineup

Fort York Redcoat
05-20-2012, 12:51 PM
lol start wearing black shirts that say "Not renewing" until we get a whole swath of them, then the civilians will see those and perhaps be turned off too.


People have been wearing black since season 2. Black shirts won't exactly stand out.

rocker
05-20-2012, 12:52 PM
I am adding my 2 cents here at the end. I have been a season ticket holder from day 1, and have barely missed a game since despite the heat I get. From my wife every week. I agree with many that changes have to happen at the top. MLSE and Anselmi care more about the food they provide us at every game, and merchandise sold than the on field product. The bureaucracy as stated earlier as well is unbelievable especially that most are not football people or football people who have not accomplished anything in the sport. Yet they are given these extremely cushy jobs, just like the old CSA, and are clueless. When Winter arrived I believed he was going to be the saviour. I still do. He arrived way too late to have an impact on the team and that is fact, and he inherited a bunch of hacks. But he is still surrounded by ineptitude around him. Just like Carver was. Look where Carver is now.
Secondly, the team really lacks quality. Outside of a few players, we do not have any MLS quality players, let alone professionals. You cannot expect much from Ashtone Morgan or Doneil Henry. Good young talents, but they are not starters. Developmental players. Kocic...well he is not Frei. He was in the CSL. Sure he makes the odd good save, but he is not a professional. Semi-pro at best. Can sucks crap,, Aceval is talented but has nobody to play wiy Most teams in the MLs, including Montreal and Vaancouver have much better scouting. How the he'll can Montreal bring in Italian players under the cap, and not DP's when we cannot. Or most other players bring in South American talents. who the fuck have we brougt in outside Guevera. He was the best player and talent that graced the pitch at BMO.
Bottom l

I agree with most of this... although I think the team has quality. Even Jason DeVos has argued that the quality is there in most positions. Koev, Johnson, Frings, Avila, Lambe, Soolsma are good enough for MLS, I think. Even Plata is good enough -- he's better than speedy guys like Nyassi and Richards were when they started in the league (those guys had less on-the-ball skill a few years ago, and Plata is just as fast now... only now are Nyassi and Richards good players in MLS.)

I think however, that the our achilles heal of defense has never been fixed, either with better players or with a style of play that would "make do" with the inexperienced backline (Preki did this, making Cann, Gargan and Attakora look world-class despite the style being ugly ... I still wouldn't want a return to THAT... that's certainly an extreme case).

I mean, a backline of Hall or Eckersley + Henry + Cann + Morgan has an average age of 23.5 years. How many MLS teams have such a young, inexperienced backline? MLS games turn on a dime, really (Bruce Arena called it a coin flip league when he was in NY). With that in mind, a young backline is going to make mistakes, and MLS forwards are good enough now to make teams pay for those dumb mistakes. That's why people have often said TFC plays fine at times... there's enough experience and quality up front but the style is putting too much pressure on the defense and/or the defense is too inexperienced. While I like the develop-from-the-academy or bring-in-good-youth approach, I think it's way too much to have 3 of your 4 defenders learning the game as they go along. Most MLS teams have much more of a mix on defense... maybe 1 of the 4 is a kid learning the game... max 2... but the best teams seem to have 3 of the 4 defenders as mid-career players and veterans.

One point though: the reason Montreal can bring in certain players is because expansion teams get extra money that other MLS don't. Montreal's real cap test will come in the 3rd and 4th years, when they have the same money as other teams.

TFC07
05-20-2012, 12:57 PM
This Wednesday's game going to be do or die game for Winter. Hopefully we start all our DP now. Our best players (Frings and Danny K) haven't been healthy so far which is putting extra pressure on younger, inexperience and less quality players (like Dunfield) to perform.

When was the last time we had all our 3 DP players playing together on the pitch?

ryan
05-20-2012, 12:59 PM
People have been wearing black since season 2. Black shirts won't exactly stand out.

lets go with pink them.


or maybe lets all buy piss yellow cbus kits and start wearing those.

Richard
05-20-2012, 01:03 PM
I agree with most of this... although I think the team has quality. Even Jason DeVos has argued that the quality is there in most positions. Koev, Johnson, Frings, Avila, Lambe, Soolsma are good enough for MLS, I think. Even Plata is good enough -- he's better than speedy guys like Nyassi and Richards were when they started in the league (those guys have less on the ball skill, and Plata is just as fast).

I think however, that the our achilles heal of defense has never been fixed, either with better players or with a style of play that would "make do" with the inexperienced backline (Preki did this, making Cann, Gargan and Attakora look world-class despite the style being ugly ... I still wouldn't want a return to THAT... that's certainly an extreme case).

I mean, a backline of Hall or Eckersley + Henry + Cann + Morgan has an average age of 23.5 years. How many MLS teams have such a young, inexperienced backline? MLS games turn on a dime, really (Bruce Arena called it a coin flip league when he was in NY). With that in mind, a young backline is going to make mistakes, and MLS forwards are good enough now to make teams pay for those dumb mistakes. That's why people have often said TFC plays fine at times... there's enough experience and quality up front but the style is putting too much pressure on the defense and/or the defense is too inexperienced. While I like the develop-from-the-academy or bring-in-good-youth approach, I think it's way too much to have 3 of your 4 defenders learning the game as they go along. Most MLS teams have much more of a mix on defense... maybe 1 of the 4 is a kid learning the game... max 2... but the best teams seem to have 3 of the 4 defenders as mid-career players and veterans.

One point though: the reason Montreal can bring in certain players is because expansion teams get extra money that other MLS don't. Montreal's real cap test will come in the 3rd and 4th years, when they have the same money as other teams.

I agree, one of our fundamental problems is we have too many youth not quite ready to play at this leval consistantly. What bugs me.everytime is when its mentioned we should loan some players out, not it being mentioned but that they have a point and we NEVER see players in the league being loaned.

For example, Cordon, Vukic, Omphroy(last year), Mukabuya and possibly others should be with other clubs gaining experiance. We dont have a solid structure in place like EU, TFC want young players to develop but at some point they become to old fo the academy meaning its either they make Tfc ot not. In other league what would happen is players like Vukic would have been signed then sent to an affiliate, i suspect many of our current acedmy products would be ahead of the game if they have had more experiance in other leagues.

jabbronies
05-20-2012, 01:03 PM
This Wednesday's game going to be do or die game for Winter. Hopefully we start all our DP now. Our best players (Frings and Danny K) haven't been healthy so far which is putting extra pressure on younger, inexperience and less quality players (like Dunfield) to perform.

When was the last time we had all our 3 DP players playing together on the pitch?

Wasn't it the Chicago fire game when they score 26 seconds into the game?

Beach_Red
05-20-2012, 01:09 PM
A public protest is a good idea, but it's not like they don't know they're 0-9.

The thing is, from the very beginning this team has been poorly put together with lousy infratsructure. We've treated it like a 'real' team with a real front office and real scouts and real training staff and we've demanded that a few individuals be fired - and they all have been, from Mo Must Go, to the end of Prekiball and probably soon Winter - and the rest of the league keeps getting better and we keep getting worse.

Now we have a laughable structure with technical this and developmental that, the place is full of embarrassing buzzwords and marketing crap.

If ever there was a situation that called for a back-to-basics, keep it simple approach it's this one. But no, what we get are silly grandiose talk about, "affecting the way the game is played in north America," and how in ten years we'll have the best.... something.

I just wish they would stop with the big time plans and bullshit talk and try to be an MLS team that can win a few games.

QSIM
05-20-2012, 01:33 PM
I feel terrible for the lads who are still giving it all week in week out for the club. Danny looks like hes about to break into tears in his interview.

I have a serious question - how do you support the club (the lads who deserve it) without demonstrating complacency or a sense of acceptance towards MLSE, etc.?

Yohan
05-20-2012, 01:37 PM
Secondly, the team really lacks quality. Outside of a few players, we do not have any MLS quality players, let alone professionals.
Just how many MLS games do you watch per week, to make this statement? Curious.

You cannot expect much from Ashtone Morgan or Doneil Henry. Good young talents, but they are not starters. Developmental players.
Plenty of 19-20 yr olds get game mins in MLS. Maybe not as much as Morgan and Henry does, but guys like Luis Gil, Andy Najar (you know, the kid who torched our left side last game), etc. have role to play in their team in big ways.

Kocic...well he is not Frei. He was in the CSL. Sure he makes the odd good save, but he is not a professional. Semi-pro at best.
By your definition, good MLS players with USL/NASL time on their resume also sucks. I wonder what Josh Saunders, Jon Busch feels about that.
Kocic went to CSL to get first team mins, because he was behind Frei and Edwards in depth at the time. Not because he sucked.


Can sucks crap,, Aceval is talented but has nobody to play wiy
Aceval doesn't have enough pace and agility to keep up with athletic MLS strikers and wingers. He's not talented enough to make it up with positioning or football smarts.

Most teams in the MLs, including Montreal and Vaancouver have much better scouting. How the he'll can Montreal bring in Italian players under the cap, and not DP's when we cannot.
I'll give you that, though Vancouver really haven't done much to explore outside NA for their talent. Lee Young Pyo sounds like he dropped into their lap, and Martin Bonjour is looking very average lately. Montreal's now linked to every single overaged Serie A player looking for a final paycheck. Whoopie.

Or most other players bring in South American talents. who the fuck have we brougt in outside Guevera. He was the best player and talent that graced the pitch at BMO.
Bottom l
Pablo Vitti? Caicedo, Plata, Aceval.

Guevara isn't even South American, and he showed up like half the time.

rocker
05-20-2012, 01:41 PM
I agree, one of our fundamental problems is we have too many youth not quite ready to play at this leval consistantly. What bugs me.everytime is when its mentioned we should loan some players out, not it being mentioned but that they have a point and we NEVER see players in the league being loaned.

For example, Cordon, Vukic, Omphroy(last year), Mukabuya and possibly others should be with other clubs gaining experiance. We dont have a solid structure in place like EU, TFC want young players to develop but at some point they become to old fo the academy meaning its either they make Tfc ot not. In other league what would happen is players like Vukic would have been signed then sent to an affiliate, i suspect many of our current acedmy products would be ahead of the game if they have had more experiance in other leagues.

Yep, that would be a good idea.

Regarding the experience thing -- some of the better MLS coaches don't necessarily go with all older vets on the backline, but they intersperse vets with youth. Bruce Arena has been pretty good at having those no-name, mid-career MLSers who are fundamentally sound but not flashy -- think Dunivant or Sean Franklin. It hasn't quite worked for Arena this season, but he'll keep it close to the playoffs. Arena brings in kids here and there, like he did with Omar Gonzalez... but then he had Gregg Berhalter (US international and veteran MLSer) to keep things together.

Right now we're just too young and inexperienced on defense, which falls on Winter and Mariner. Aceval could have brought that experience but it hasn't worked. The Caicedo experiment could have helped, but it failed.

I like Morgan and Henry... some day I bet these guys will be MLS starters and national team regulars. But at this very moment, they are not good enough to get 90 minutes day in day out. Arena would never start these two, together, 90 minutes every game. If this was 2010, maybe he would have Henry alongside Berhalter... or Morgan on one side with Berhalter, Gonzalez, and Franklin. Imagine if Jason Kreis played Morgan with Olave, Borchers, and Beltran? He'd probably be fine as they would direct him on coverage. Even Henry or Cann next to Olave would be perfectly fine, since Olave is a beast and the two outside backs are experienced. But what was Olave doing when he was 19? What was Borchers doing when he was 21? Probably not in the situation TFC has now.

This is also why I think some of our players leave to other teams and do fine: they are inherently decent MLS players but they need help. They are being hung out to dry when their teammates are just as experienced as they are. It's also why Frings made such an amazing contribution when he arrived -- he was bringing that tactical awareness and experience that the athletic kids just don't have yet.

Yohan
05-20-2012, 01:43 PM
I agree, one of our fundamental problems is we have too many youth not quite ready to play at this leval consistantly. What bugs me.everytime is when its mentioned we should loan some players out, not it being mentioned but that they have a point and we NEVER see players in the league being loaned.

For example, Cordon, Vukic, Omphroy(last year), Mukabuya and possibly others should be with other clubs gaining experiance. We dont have a solid structure in place like EU, TFC want young players to develop but at some point they become to old fo the academy meaning its either they make Tfc ot not. In other league what would happen is players like Vukic would have been signed then sent to an affiliate, i suspect many of our current acedmy products would be ahead of the game if they have had more experiance in other leagues.

I wonder about this as well. I think there are few factors
-MLS teams do not want to eat up a loan player's salary, because NASL/USL teams do not want to pay for a loanee's wages. NASL/USL don't have a salary cap IIRC, but their operating budget is so small that even the min wage MLS players will have a big impact on their salary budget. A loaned player for MLS team is just a player eating up salary cap space, and maybe even a roster spot.
-NASL/USL is probably sick of MLS poaching their best moneymaking cities.
-Suspected quality in USL/NASL play, because except for very few players, not many D2 players end up doing well enough in MLS

Yohan
05-20-2012, 01:49 PM
I agree with most of this... although I think the team has quality. Even Jason DeVos has argued that the quality is there in most positions. Koev, Johnson, Frings, Avila, Lambe, Soolsma are good enough for MLS, I think. Even Plata is good enough -- he's better than speedy guys like Nyassi and Richards were when they started in the league (those guys had less on-the-ball skill a few years ago, and Plata is just as fast now... only now are Nyassi and Richards good players in MLS.)

I think however, that the our achilles heal of defense has never been fixed, either with better players or with a style of play that would "make do" with the inexperienced backline (Preki did this, making Cann, Gargan and Attakora look world-class despite the style being ugly ... I still wouldn't want a return to THAT... that's certainly an extreme case).

I mean, a backline of Hall or Eckersley + Henry + Cann + Morgan has an average age of 23.5 years. How many MLS teams have such a young, inexperienced backline? MLS games turn on a dime, really (Bruce Arena called it a coin flip league when he was in NY). With that in mind, a young backline is going to make mistakes, and MLS forwards are good enough now to make teams pay for those dumb mistakes. That's why people have often said TFC plays fine at times... there's enough experience and quality up front but the style is putting too much pressure on the defense and/or the defense is too inexperienced. While I like the develop-from-the-academy or bring-in-good-youth approach, I think it's way too much to have 3 of your 4 defenders learning the game as they go along. Most MLS teams have much more of a mix on defense... maybe 1 of the 4 is a kid learning the game... max 2... but the best teams seem to have 3 of the 4 defenders as mid-career players and veterans.

One point though: the reason Montreal can bring in certain players is because expansion teams get extra money that other MLS don't. Montreal's real cap test will come in the 3rd and 4th years, when they have the same money as other teams.

I suspect AW/PM built this team to be really competitive in year 3. Except, nobody expect TFC to tank this badly this year. I can see Plata, Morgan, Henry, Avila, Lambe being really good players in 2-3 years.

Richard
05-20-2012, 02:00 PM
I wonder about this as well. I think there are few factors
-MLS teams do not want to eat up a loan player's salary, because NASL/USL teams do not want to pay for a loanee's wages. NASL/USL don't have a salary cap IIRC, but their operating budget is so small that even the min wage MLS players will have a big impact on their salary budget. A loaned player for MLS team is just a player eating up salary cap space, and maybe even a roster spot.
-NASL/USL is probably sick of MLS poaching their best moneymaking cities.
-Suspected quality in USL/NASL play, because except for very few players, not many D2 players end up doing well enough in MLS

Your right, it is too much to expect lower D teams take on salries from mls players. As you said the money is not avaible for this to happen in NA. At the same time mls can greatly encourage development because of the cap. I think if the league really wants to send a message they should have a rule in place that every home grown player will have a zero cap hit throughout his time in mls.

Yohan
05-20-2012, 02:16 PM
Your right, it is too much to expect lower D teams take on salries from mls players. As you said the money is not avaible for this to happen in NA. At the same time mls can greatly encourage development because of the cap. I think if the league really wants to send a message they should have a rule in place that every home grown player will have a zero cap hit throughout his time in mls.

players under the budget, basically 21-30 don't have cap hit.

ensco
05-20-2012, 02:32 PM
I gave my tickets for Wednesday away, we'll see about Saturday. If the weather is nice, I might go. Otherwise not.

Not criticizing anyone who can stay with this, but I surrender.

Canada qualifying and Euro 2012 beckon.

I've spent almost $20K on tickets since 2007: I'm not coming back unless there is real change.

Richard
05-20-2012, 02:37 PM
players under the budget, basically 21-30 don't have cap hit.

Those slots are determined by lowest salary? I meant you can pay a player 500k yet no cap hit because they are home grown.

Mattsp71
05-20-2012, 02:53 PM
Hunt Sports Group too, though they have their share of detractors but at least HSG has won an MLS Cup
They have won 2 MLS Cups one with Columbus and the other with Kansas City before it was sold, I heard from KC supporters that the Hunts Kept the MLS Cup and it's on display at HQ in Dallas. I think last year with the new Stadium there were calls for them to return it, which they should.

jimiv
05-20-2012, 03:08 PM
I gave my tickets for Wednesday away, we'll see about Saturday.

I stopped giving tickets away or selling them, the seats need to stay empty, it's the only thing ML$E understands...

Roogsy
05-20-2012, 03:31 PM
I feel terrible for the lads who are still giving it all week in week out for the club. Danny looks like hes about to break into tears in his interview.

I have a serious question - how do you support the club (the lads who deserve it) without demonstrating complacency or a sense of acceptance towards MLSE, etc.?

Protest at the ACC offices not at BMO.

Imagine 1000 TFC fans yelling for Anselmi's firing? Tell me that won't get the new owner's attention?

Chevy
05-20-2012, 03:51 PM
surely there is a oil sheik or Russian gazilionare who's life time ambition is to own a Canadian team in the MLS. please.

Dare to dream, but I would like to see you explain "Salary Cap" to them. :)

OgtheDim
05-20-2012, 03:51 PM
I stopped giving tickets away or selling them, the seats need to stay empty, it's the only thing ML$E understands...

Not bought is the only thing that they would understand.

Rogers and Bell will have different metrics. I fully expect a BIG push for TFC on all Rogers channels. TV ratings do better if the atmosphere is good.

Ticket prices will change I suspect. And they will root out the scalpers who don't sell.

trane
05-20-2012, 04:53 PM
A public protest is a good idea, but it's not like they don't know they're 0-9.

The thing is, from the very beginning this team has been poorly put together with lousy infratsructure. We've treated it like a 'real' team with a real front office and real scouts and real training staff and we've demanded that a few individuals be fired - and they all have been, from Mo Must Go, to the end of Prekiball and probably soon Winter - and the rest of the league keeps getting better and we keep getting worse.

Now we have a laughable structure with technical this and developmental that, the place is full of embarrassing buzzwords and marketing crap.

If ever there was a situation that called for a back-to-basics, keep it simple approach it's this one. But no, what we get are silly grandiose talk about, "affecting the way the game is played in north America," and how in ten years we'll have the best.... something.

I just wish they would stop with the big time plans and bullshit talk and try to be an MLS team that can win a few games.


I am all for grandiose ideas, but when they are backed up by bullshit, they are a con-game and that is what TFC is a con game.

Ajax TFC
05-20-2012, 04:56 PM
Protest at the ACC offices not at BMO.

Imagine 1000 TFC fans yelling for Anselmi's firing? Tell me that won't get the new owner's attention?
that's exactly what I was thinking. Ownership probably wouldn't even find out about any protests at BMO field. IMO the only BMO protest that would work is simply not going. I imagine a graph showing the steady attendance drop at BMO field would be more alarming to the new ownership than a list of things that the fans did AT the game. Then go to the main offices and make it clear day to the ownership that the problem is Anselmi and Cockrane.

P.S. I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should do, just my opinion on what would get the ownership's attention.

trane
05-20-2012, 05:00 PM
And the fundamental problem is that winter is not up to the job. The squad is not without issues, but ultimately it is not an 0-9 club. People wake up. Winter is not cutting it, and I think it is save to say that unless there is a fundamental change in him as a manager he will not cut it.

tfc2008
05-20-2012, 05:01 PM
lets go with pink them.


or maybe lets all buy piss yellow cbus kits and start wearing those.

Are stay home

69Chevy396
05-20-2012, 05:35 PM
Are stay home

Staying home does nothing, silent protests etc work best if a national tv audience is watching. And, how many of you will return and lay out your thousands in October on news that the team will be signing more "star players"......They know what they are doing, this is how they maximize profits every season.....fool you just enough to get your money but then do nothing during the regular season when the scum rises.....an 0-9 team that has not made one trade during the regular season says something.

narduch
05-20-2012, 05:45 PM
Tasmania Berlin were pretty bad IIRC. Early'60s Bundesliga.

Wow, thanks for that. Had to look that up.

In a 34 game season, they had 2 wins, 4 draws and 28 losses:

http://www.rsssf.com/tablesd/duit66.html

Looks like the 2012 version of TFC wants to join the talk of worst soccer team ever.

__wowza
05-20-2012, 05:47 PM
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/05/19/danny-koevermans-may-19-2012

Every. Single. One. Of. You. NEED. To. Watch. This. Video.

"it's horrible", yup.

Just One Man
05-20-2012, 05:59 PM
You see that Kovermans interview?

That is a player who gets it. This "played well", "good chances" nonsense that Winter and his apologists around here spout off after the loss every week, it is pure garbage.

Winning is winning. It doesn't matter if you "play well". You see what this "total football" bullshit gets you? Zero points, and a team full of emotionally shattered players.

You dont build a FUCKING winning culture by losing every FUCKING week. I don't care what long term goals you have or what pie in the sky "system" you want to implement. All that is happening is this franchise, and every player associated with it, is being beaten into the ground.

Fire Winter. It is painfully fucking obvious. Just fire the fucking manager. He has led this team to the worst record of all time. I don't give a fuck what higher ups are meddling, Winter is on the touchline, Winter is implementing losing tactics, and he is fielding losing squads.

Just fucking fire him. Holy fuck people!

narduch
05-20-2012, 06:06 PM
It wouldn't surprise me at all if one of both of Frings or Koevermans 'retires' during the summer transfer window.

I'm sure neither of them imagined this is how they would play out their careers.

v00d00daddy
05-20-2012, 06:21 PM
You see that Kovermans interview?

That is a player who gets it. This "played well", "good chances" nonsense that Winter and his apologists around here spout off after the loss every week, it is pure garbage.

Winning is winning. It doesn't matter if you "play well". You see what this "total football" bullshit gets you? Zero points, and a team full of emotionally shattered players.

You dont build a FUCKING winning culture by losing every FUCKING week. I don't care what long term goals you have or what pie in the sky "system" you want to implement. All that is happening is this franchise, and every player associated with it, is being beaten into the ground.

Fire Winter. It is painfully fucking obvious. Just fire the fucking manager. He has led this team to the worst record of all time. I don't give a fuck what higher ups are meddling, Winter is on the touchline, Winter is implementing losing tactics, and he is fielding losing squads.

Just fucking fire him. Holy fuck people!

I don't think Koevermans frustration has anything to do with what system they play.

I think he's saying "We just scored to get back in the game and we give up a goal a minute later because we don't defend properly"

As in....the defenders let us down. Mentally and execution wise.

I'm finally in the Fire Winter camp. But as much as I want him gone...I want everybody gone. Anselmi, Cochrane, Mariner.

But I just don't get some of you guys that feel bad for the players. Why? Cause it bothers them that they're losing. They're a HUGE part of the reason that the team is losing. There are players that are not playing to a proper standard. There are players that are making stupid mistakes. And then there are players that just don't have all that much experience (these guys I feel bad for but it doesn't change the fact that they're contributing to the losses)

Feeling bad for the players is stupid. It's making excuses.

Every single person that gets paid to walk around with a TFC logo on their clothing is responsible for this garbage. Don't let the players off the hook because they're tired of losing.

Just One Man
05-20-2012, 06:27 PM
I don't think Koevermans frustration has anything to do with what system they play.

I think he's saying "We just scored to get back in the game and we give up a goal a minute later because we don't defend properly"

As in....the defenders let us down. Mentally and execution wise.

I'm finally in the Fire Winter camp. But as much as I want him gone...I want everybody gone. Anselmi, Cochrane, Mariner.

But I just don't get some of you guys that feel bad for the players. Why? Cause it bothers them that they're losing. They're a HUGE part of the reason that the team is losing. There are players that are not playing to a proper standard. There are players that are making stupid mistakes. And then there are players that just don't have all that much experience (these guys I feel bad for but it doesn't change the fact that they're contributing to the losses)

Feeling bad for the players is stupid. It's making excuses.

Every single person that gets paid to walk around with a TFC logo on their clothing is responsible for this garbage. Don't let the players off the hook because they're tired of losing.

Hey, I am with you, I would fire the lot. I would rather watch TFC's academy get trounced week in week out than watch a bunch of so-called "professionals" piss their way to the worst record of all time.

Beach_Red
05-20-2012, 06:33 PM
His frustration is probably over the fact they are 0-9 and still talking about systems. This whole 'plan,' the whole Klinsmann overhaul and all the big talk was a marketing plan. They told everybody how much better they were going to be than everyone else and got smacked by the rest of the league for their big talk.

Clearly the players are tired of being the front men for this scam.

Rene Kingsriver
05-20-2012, 06:34 PM
Protest at the ACC offices not at BMO.

Imagine 1000 TFC fans yelling for Anselmi's firing? Tell me that won't get the new owner's attention?

I'm willing to contribute to printing flyers (reckon I can get them at cost), permits from the cops, whatever. Its the TFC Spring :scarf:

Kevvv
05-20-2012, 06:38 PM
And the fundamental problem is that winter is not up to the job. The squad is not without issues, but ultimately it is not an 0-9 club. People wake up. Winter is not cutting it, and I think it is save to say that unless there is a fundamental change in him as a manager he will not cut it.

Time to promote him to some job where he can't hurt the team or poke himself with sharp objects.

I make it six times they've given up a goal before the Danny Dichio memorial chant, twice in the first minute. Unbearable and inexcusable.

Yohan
05-20-2012, 06:43 PM
this thread is now being hijacked

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/250030_227667833910964_100000032471500_976717_3075 809_n.jpg

http://www.cdchivasusa.com/sites/chivas/files/2012CG_GroupPoster.jpg

http://ultimatecheerleaders.com/tag/fc-dallas/

v00d00daddy
05-20-2012, 06:43 PM
His frustration is probably over the fact they are 0-9 and still talking about systems. This whole 'plan,' the whole Klinsmann overhaul and all the big talk was a marketing plan. They told everybody how much better they were going to be than everyone else and got smacked by the rest of the league for their big talk.

Clearly the players are tired of being the front men for this scam.

I might believe this theory if I thought the players were smart enough to even think this way. The vast majority of the players on this team don't even know what system to be mad at. LOL

If the players were able to play the way they're being asked to play then maybe we'd see different results. Either way...it's a colossal clusterfuck.

The FO puts making money way before winning.
The GM hasn't brought in any impact players and has re-signed players for too much money....and those players are regressing in performance.
The coach doesn't know the league and sticks to his plan even though it's obvious (0 and fucking 9) that it's not working
The players (short of 3 or 4) don't have the brains or the basic fundamental skills to pull off anything other than garbage football. They're also incredibly weak minded and prone to amateur mistakes and chicken shit collapses under the smallest amount of pressure.

It's a fucking joke from top to bottom.

Just One Man
05-20-2012, 06:45 PM
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/05/19/aron-winter-may-19-2012

Winter is a fucking loser. It doesn't even sound like he cares anymore.

v00d00daddy
05-20-2012, 06:46 PM
And the fundamental problem is that winter is not up to the job. The squad is not without issues, but ultimately it is not an 0-9 club. People wake up. Winter is not cutting it, and I think it is save to say that unless there is a fundamental change in him as a manager he will not cut it.

Sorry Trane. I agree that Winter needs to go but to suggest that he's the main problem is kinda out there. There are so many problems with this club but I think most would agree that the fundamental problem is that the FO has no clue what they're doing and don't give a shit that we suck.

This 0-9 start is just the straw to break the camels back. This team and club have sucked from day one back in 2007.

Beach_Red
05-20-2012, 06:53 PM
I might believe this theory if I thought the players were smart enough to even think this way. The vast majority of the players on this team don't even know what system to be mad at. LOL

If the players were able to play the way they're being asked to play then maybe we'd see different results. Either way...it's a colossal clusterfuck.

The FO puts making money way before winning.
The GM hasn't brought in any impact players and has re-signed players for too much money....and those players are regressing in performance.
The coach doesn't know the league and sticks to his plan even though it's obvious (0 and fucking 9) that it's not working
The players (short of 3 or 4) don't have the brains or the basic fundamental skills to pull off anything other than garbage football. They're also incredibly weak minded and prone to amateur mistakes and chicken shit collapses under the smallest amount of pressure.

It's a fucking joke from top to bottom.

I have no idea if these players are smart or not. But I know it's dumb to keep asking people to do something they can't over and over again and getting the same results.

TFC has the players it deserves - they got rid of plenty of serviceable MLS players like Cronin and Labrocca to build this team and this is what they are: 0-9.

Why blame the guys who are trying? Sure, they're not good enough to win like this, but they might be good enough to win once in a while under different circumstances.

Beach_Red
05-20-2012, 06:56 PM
Sorry Trane. I agree that Winter needs to go but to suggest that he's the main problem is kinda out there. There are so many problems with this club but I think most would agree that the fundamental problem is that the FO has no clue what they're doing and don't give a shit that we suck.

This 0-9 start is just the straw to break the camels back. This team and club have sucked from day one back in 2007.

Yes, I think this is true. Any look beyond the surface and this was always a house of cards. Blaming Winter now is like blaming any of the guys who've gone before him. I'd like to hear what was behind De Vos' twitter that none of the coaches at TFC have ever had support from above.

Richard
05-20-2012, 07:11 PM
I don't think Koevermans frustration has anything to do with what system they play.

I think he's saying "We just scored to get back in the game and we give up a goal a minute later because we don't defend properly"

As in....the defenders let us down. Mentally and execution wise.

I'm finally in the Fire Winter camp. But as much as I want him gone...I want everybody gone. Anselmi, Cochrane, Mariner.

But I just don't get some of you guys that feel bad for the players. Why? Cause it bothers them that they're losing. They're a HUGE part of the reason that the team is losing. There are players that are not playing to a proper standard. There are players that are making stupid mistakes. And then there are players that just don't have all that much experience (these guys I feel bad for but it doesn't change the fact that they're contributing to the losses)

Feeling bad for the players is stupid. It's making excuses.

Every single person that gets paid to walk around with a TFC logo on their clothing is responsible for this garbage. Don't let the players off the hook because they're tired of losing.

I dont necessarily feel bad for the players but watching the Koevs interview how can you not feel his pain, I agree there are players which deserve the wrath of fans but you cant say some of the players are not trying or dont deserve some sympathy. Koevs didnt even start the game for some dumb reason. I understand all of the players play a part in this bad streak but it would be unfair to catergorize them in one group. Im not letting them off the hook but watching that video particularly gives you a different perspective, players like him really care.

reggie
05-20-2012, 07:21 PM
these bunch of clowns make MO look like SIR ALEX....

Pookie
05-20-2012, 07:29 PM
Fire Winter. It is painfully fucking obvious. Just fire the fucking manager. He has led this team to the worst record of all time. I don't give a fuck what higher ups are meddling, Winter is on the touchline, Winter is implementing losing tactics, and he is fielding losing squads.

Just fucking fire him. Holy fuck people!

Yep and Mo and Carver (well, he in fairness he quit halfway through the season... perhaps he was on to something) and Cummins and Preki and Dasovic and Winter and then the next guy...

After awhile, it stops being the coach on the touchlines and starts to be the guy who put him (and him and him and him and him and him) on the touchlines.

trane
05-20-2012, 07:32 PM
Sorry Trane. I agree that Winter needs to go but to suggest that he's the main problem is kinda out there. There are so many problems with this club but I think most would agree that the fundamental problem is that the FO has no clue what they're doing and don't give a shit that we suck.

This 0-9 start is just the straw to break the camels back. This team and club have sucked from day one back in 2007.


You have read enough of my rants to know that I agree, and have agreed for a long time. I do think that the squad is better then 0-9. But I have said for a long time that this entire organization is rotten.

I would like to see an entire overhaul from top to bottom. I have wanted it since two seaons ago, I gave them the benefit of the doubt, with this run I give up on this club in its present form.

Pookie
05-20-2012, 07:43 PM
As for blaming the players, we have the youngest roster in the league.

In a predominantly USA centric developmental league, we have but 6 American players. We have but one American starter (Avila) with a sometimes starter (Silva) and 4 other almost never starts (Emory, Hall, Harden, Maund).

The rest of our domestic quota is made up of Canadians (9 in total).

DC United managed to scout 17 Americans and give them contracts.

When I wrote about the number of Canadians on TFC's roster, a number of you took the flag to beat me with it. Step away from nationalism for a minute and recognize that simple stat is very telling if you acknowledge that soccer development in the USA is miles ahead of what the CSA has done for soccer in this country. We are going fishing in waters that aren't stocked with fish. We are keeping whatever we catch and expecting it to be 5 star restaurant quality.

We are going up against teams that have deeper rosters, with better players at most every starting position. This is especially true when our best players (Koevermans and Frings) are less than healthy.

This has everything to do with an ownership group with the wrong vision... or simply no vision at all. We don't find the best players, we find what's convenient.

TFC USA
05-20-2012, 07:57 PM
I hope we go winless the entire MLS season just to see how many people will say "Give Winter another year to implement his system!"

spe18
05-20-2012, 08:01 PM
Wow, thanks for that. Had to look that up.

In a 34 game season, they had 2 wins, 4 draws and 28 losses:

http://www.rsssf.com/tablesd/duit66.html

Looks like the 2012 version of TFC wants to join the talk of worst soccer team ever.

I looked through their wikipedia page, and it mentions "until 1993, most minutes played without scoring a goal: 831 minutes (2 October 1965 – 11 December 1965), since surpassed by 1. FC Saarbrücken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1._FC_Saarbr%C3%BCcken) and 1. FC Köln (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1._FC_K%C3%B6ln)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SC_Tasmania_1900_Berlin

The TFC record set back in 2007: 824 minutes

Now we're really talking about similarities eh!

Yohan
05-20-2012, 08:02 PM
I have no idea if these players are smart or not. But I know it's dumb to keep asking people to do something they can't over and over again and getting the same results.

TFC has the players it deserves - they got rid of plenty of serviceable MLS players like Cronin and Labrocca to build this team and this is what they are: 0-9.

Why blame the guys who are trying? Sure, they're not good enough to win like this, but they might be good enough to win once in a while under different circumstances.

I'm quoting your post, but there are several posts that I'm going to address.

Here's a list of former TFC players still playing in MLS as of today

Nick LaBrocca (Chivas USA)
Dan Gargan (Chicago Fire)
Hunter Freeman (Colorado Rapids)
Conor Casey (Colorado Rapids)
Marvell Wynne (Colorado Rapids)
Joseph Nane (Colorado Rapids)
Tyrone Marshall (Colorado Rapids)
Tony Tchani (Columbus Crew)
Julius James (Columbus Crew)
Dwayne De Rosario (DC United)
Andrew Boyens (LA Galaxy)
Chad Barrett (Los Angeles Galaxy)
Todd Dunivant (Los Angeles Galaxy)
Edson Buddle (Los Angeles Galaxy)
Paulo Nagamura (Sporting Kansas City)
Jacob Peterson (Sporting Kansas City)
Alan Gordon (San Jose Earthquakes)
Sam Cronin (San Jose Earthquakes)
Greg Sutton (Montreal Impact)
Nathan Sturgis (Houston Dynamo)

You will note that most of these guys are either getting first team mins, or at least make the subs bench.
Our former 'shit players', like Dan Gargan for Chicago, are starters in other MLS teams. Alan Gordon has made two clutch goals in stoppage time two games in a row. Julius James, when not injured, is a starting CB for Columbus.

Enough talent has flowed through TFC, and I still believe that current crop of players is best group to ever play for TFC.

The 'system' is fine offensively. TFC has been creating enough chances most games to score about 2 goals per game. Now if the players can't finish, or the opposition keeper makes amazing saves or crossbars or whatever is part of the equation. But I think the offence is good enough to be competitive in MLS.

The 'system' fails when it comes to defence. Whether it is lack of experience, or just brain farts, failure to comprehend positioning, whatever, the message isn't getting through. I don't think TFC defence is that terrible individually when compared to other MLS teams, certainly not bad to be 0-9. You know why TFC lost last game? Failure to apply high pressure like TFC did vs Mtl and Vancouver. That's just all on Winter.

I think that this team is built to mature in next year or two, with all the young talent we got. Morgan, Henry, Silva, Maund, Plata, even guys like Eckersley, Hall, Avila haven't hit their prime yet, and they have shown potential to be really good MLS players. The question is whether they will be able to mature properly at right environment.

So why are we 0-9? Honestly, I don't know. I don't have all the facts on the locker room and FO drama, or a crystal ball to see into what ails this team.

What I do know is that something has to give. No matter how good you may be, you go on a nine game losing streak in any soccer league, you're going to get fired. You might not be totally responsible for the team's failure, but if you're the head coach, most of the blame will fall on you. At this time, as a head coach, you've lost so much credibility with your players, that even with a new winning streak, the damage likely is irreparable.

And the buck stops somewhere. In TFC's case, it's Tom Anselmi, who in 6 years, haven't shown any aptitude to understand soccer business. 6 years! How many jobs allow 6 years of apprenticeship? If you can't get it right in 6 years, it's time for you to go. I'm not asking Anselmi to be fired. But I am asking him to be removed from TFC, someone who understands soccer and how to run a club, so that this team can start again, and develop a new atmosphere, starting from top, through FO and down to first team and other aspects of TFC.

I wasn't a fan of blowing up everything and start all over, because I felt that consistency in head coaching deserves a shot, after years of switcheroo in managers. But this is extenuating circumstances in TFC, that something is so horribly wrong, that it's just better to start all over again.

You know shit's all fucked up when people like me are starting to call for heads to roll. lol

woolly
05-20-2012, 08:16 PM
I wonder what Anselmi's W-L-D record is for the Leafs, raptors and TFC over the last 6 years.... Theres a legacy that should get anyone fired.

Yohan
05-20-2012, 08:17 PM
As for blaming the players, we have the youngest roster in the league.

In a predominantly USA centric developmental league, we have but 6 American players. We have but one American starter (Avila) with a sometimes starter (Silva) and 4 other almost never starts (Emory, Hall, Harden, Maund).

The rest of our domestic quota is made up of Canadians (9 in total).

DC United managed to scout 17 Americans and give them contracts.

When I wrote about the number of Canadians on TFC's roster, a number of you took the flag to beat me with it. Step away from nationalism for a minute and recognize that simple stat is very telling if you acknowledge that soccer development in the USA is miles ahead of what the CSA has done for soccer in this country. We are going fishing in waters that aren't stocked with fish. We are keeping whatever we catch and expecting it to be 5 star restaurant quality.

We are going up against teams that have deeper rosters, with better players at most every starting position. This is especially true when our best players (Koevermans and Frings) are less than healthy.

This has everything to do with an ownership group with the wrong vision... or simply no vision at all. We don't find the best players, we find what's convenient.
the problem is not signing too many Canadians. the problem is tying up over half your salary cap on 3 DPs, therefore not having enough cap space to sign quality players at other positions, and enough for depth. allocation money eventually runs out, and TFC's reliance on allocation finally kills us.

I think partly the reason why TFC has so many Canadians is the philosophy of developing home grown players. but also Canadians tend to be easier to sign for TFC, because of Canadian thing, and likely be able to get them cheaper. yet TFC misses out on best Canadian players in MLS not playing for TFC lulz

Ajax TFC
05-20-2012, 08:24 PM
As for blaming the players, we have the youngest roster in the league.

In a predominantly USA centric developmental league, we have but 6 American players. We have but one American starter (Avila) with a sometimes starter (Silva) and 4 other almost never starts (Emory, Hall, Harden, Maund).

The rest of our domestic quota is made up of Canadians (9 in total).

DC United managed to scout 17 Americans and give them contracts.

When I wrote about the number of Canadians on TFC's roster, a number of you took the flag to beat me with it. Step away from nationalism for a minute and recognize that simple stat is very telling if you acknowledge that soccer development in the USA is miles ahead of what the CSA has done for soccer in this country. We are going fishing in waters that aren't stocked with fish. We are keeping whatever we catch and expecting it to be 5 star restaurant quality.

We are going up against teams that have deeper rosters, with better players at most every starting position. This is especially true when our best players (Koevermans and Frings) are less than healthy.

This has everything to do with an ownership group with the wrong vision... or simply no vision at all. We don't find the best players, we find what's convenient.
well Johnson's technically not an American, but in reality he is (came to America as an infant and played soccer there his entire career). So that makes two starters...

I 100% agree with you about the Canadian problem. I don't believe for a second that we went out and got Dunfield because Winter saw him and thought that he would be able to play the way he wants the team to play and was the best option for the price. I'm now 90% sure that that deal was made by someone higher in the organization than Winter or Mariner. Why should they give a shit about bringing in old Canadians? Plus the trend of getting crappy Canadian internationals like him has gone way back before Winter came. I find it hard to believe that both a Scott and a Dutchman had the same policy. I think this "canadian problem" goes back to upper management meddling with the Managers.

Yohan
05-20-2012, 08:27 PM
well Johnson's technically not an American, but in reality he is (came to America as an infant and played soccer there his entire career). So that makes two starters...

I 100% agree with you about the Canadian problem. I don't believe for a second that we went out and got Dunfield because Winter saw him and thought that he would be able to play the way he wants the team to play and was the best option for the price. I'm now 90% sure that that deal was made by someone higher in the organization than Winter or Mariner. Why should they give a shit about bringing in old Canadians? Plus the trend of getting crappy Canadian internationals like him has gone way back before Winter came. I find it hard to believe that both a Scott and a Dutchman had the same policy. I think this "canadian problem" goes back to upper management meddling with the Managers.

Speculation: like other Canadian failures in TFC, someone saw Dunfield's European resume, plus CMNT status and thought, hey, this guy might be not bad at all.
shiny, but doesn't excuse for bad scouting

reggie
05-20-2012, 08:29 PM
I wonder what Anselmi's W-L-D record is for the Leafs, raptors and TFC over the last 6 years.... Theres a legacy that should get anyone fired.

i wonder how many condos he has sold??

BHTC Mike
05-20-2012, 08:30 PM
if you acknowledge that soccer development in the USA is miles ahead of what the CSA has done
The problem is that most of our "informed" fans won't acknowledge that.

Mostly it's not Canadian anti-American nationalism encouraging that idea it's the pervasive Anglo/Europhilia that's been the bane of our club since we started. Most of our fans never wanted an MLS team and, 6 years of fail later, they've either given up on TFC or have still not learned much about the league we play in. They still mock the NCAA and diminish the significance of the draft even as we keep getting beat by teams built using the same player pool we're given access to. I had an epic series of posts on U-Sector arguing with someone over this very point. Even if our academy flourishes and does eventually consistently produce more "professional ready" players in 5 to 10 years that should be additive not exclusive. It's simply foolish to concentrate most of our energy on only finding the best talent out of the 6 million people in the GTA when there's an entire network channeling talent into MLS that covers a nation of over 300 million. It's just a numbers game at a certain point.

(I'll edit to post a link to the thread on U-Sector if I can find it. You might enjoy reading it.)

Edit: Found it: http://z15.invisionfree.com/U_Sector/index.php?showtopic=15637&st=45 Continues on the next page from the linked one too.

Beach_Red
05-20-2012, 08:36 PM
Do most Canadian players have the same agent?

Beach_Red
05-20-2012, 08:39 PM
The problem is that most of our "informed" fans won't acknowledge that.

Mostly it's not Canadian anti-American nationalism encouraging that idea it's the pervasive Anglo/Europhilia that's been the bane of our club since we started. Most of our fans never wanted an MLS team and, 6 years of fail later, they've either given up on TFC or have still not learned much about the league we play in. They still mock the NCAA and diminish the significance of the draft even as we keep getting beat by teams built using the same player pool we're given access to. I had an epic series of posts on U-Sector arguing with someone over this very point. Even if our academy flourishes and does eventually consistently produce more "professional ready" players in 5 to 10 years that should be additive not exclusive. It's simply foolish to concentrate most of our energy on only finding the best talent out of the 6 million people in the GTA when there's an entire network channeling talent into MLS that covers a nation of over 300 million. It's just a numbers game at a certain point.

(I'll edit to post a link to the thread on U-Sector if I can find it. You might enjoy reading it.)

With evidence like 0-9 it's hard to see how anyone can argue with you, but that's the internet, isn't it?

reggie
05-20-2012, 08:43 PM
frankly i dont care if we dont hv any canadians starting,it will happen down the road.
name one team anywhere that have 2 u20 players starting in the back 4....that is the fail of this club.

jloome
05-20-2012, 08:55 PM
With evidence like 0-9 it's hard to see how anyone can argue with you, but that's the internet, isn't it?

Athleticism always trumps technique, eventually. We had this problem in high school, when my Canadian high school team woudl go across the border, and even though the American players lacked technique and played dump-and-chase, they were just better athletes. All the technique and tactical acumen couldn't beat being out-hustled, out-worked and out-finished.

It's like the dink tennis analogy as well. A good tennis player who is a mediocre athlete will lose every time to a mediocre tennis player who is a great athlete, because the latter just needs to get the ball back until the former makes a mistake. I look at some of the dominance we've had in a few individual areas in games (possession, shots, challenges, tackles) and these are stats that normally lead to a win.

In the last game, it's again worth noting that we got 18 shots off, which basically means we managed to move the ball into position to get one off that many times. It doesn't say they were quality looks, and we only managed FOUR on frame.

DC only managed 9 shots and covered much less of the pitch, but put more on frame and finished their chances.

MLS is played at parity, with games decided by individual moments of brilliance. We're not at athletic parity with other teams, and lack a true on field leader. So we're below par to start with and forced to claw back from there. Doesn't matter how good the system is if the players aren't competent to run it. You have to adopt the system to the players, not the other way around.

I don't blame Winter for this but his system does not work in MLS, obviously. DeVos was pointing to this yesterday.

reggie
05-20-2012, 09:06 PM
like i said..u cant win when 1/2 of the back 4 are under 20.

Ajax TFC
05-20-2012, 10:19 PM
frankly i dont care if we dont hv any canadians starting,it will happen down the road.
name one team anywhere that have 2 u20 players starting in the back 4....that is the fail of this club.
I can't think of any, not even TFC. Henry's the only u20 in our back line

RedRum
05-20-2012, 10:33 PM
I wonder what Anselmi's profit margin is for the Leafs, raptors and TFC over the last 6 years.... Theres a legacy that should get anyone a contract extension.

Fixed.

Whoop
05-20-2012, 10:43 PM
From today's Sun.



The legacy left behind by the smiling Richard Peddie: Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. has made Toronto the biggest loser in all professional sport
Don’t believe me? Do the math.
MLSEL owns teams in the NHL, NBA and MLS — and combined the Maple Leafs, Raptors and soccer Reds sport the fewest number of wins of any similar North American market place. To date, Toronto teams have won 58 of 156 games played this season. That’s an organisational winning percentage of .371. That’s a disgrace by an definition.
By comparison, teams in New York win 56% of the games played in those three leagues.
Of the 14 markets that have both NHL and NBA franchises, six made the playoffs in both leagues this year, another six made the playoffs in one of the leagues, and only in two places — Toronto and Minnesota — did teams miss the playoffs in both leagues.
In Los Angeles, for example, teams in the NBA and NHL still are alive two months into the post-season, this coming off a soccer championship and with baseball’s Dodgers running away in the National League West.
The Minnesota market, with terrible teams across the board, has at least had six playoff appearances by the Twins since the Blue Jays won the World Series. And the worst part of the MLSE trio of incompetent teams — there is nothing at this time to make you believe next year will by any better.

Whoop
05-20-2012, 10:45 PM
Auxerre's supporters weren't too happy today.

After 32 years of being in the 1st division, and just 4 years removed from CL play, they were relegated today and supporters weren't happy and let the team know.

jabbronies
05-20-2012, 10:47 PM
I wonder what Anselmi's W-L-D record is for the Leafs, raptors and TFC over the last 6 years.... Theres a legacy that should get anyone fired.

Anselmi came to his position with MLSE in 1996

Since then the:
Leafs have missed the playoffs 9/15 seasons
Raptors have missed the playoffs 11/16 seasons
Toronto FC have missed the playoffs 6/6 seasons

For a grand total of 26/37 loosing years for all his teams

ManUtd4ever
05-20-2012, 10:53 PM
I gave my tickets for Wednesday away, we'll see about Saturday. If the weather is nice, I might go. Otherwise not.

Not criticizing anyone who can stay with this, but I surrender.

Canada qualifying and Euro 2012 beckon.

I've spent almost $20K on tickets since 2007: I'm not coming back unless there is real change.

I don't blame you at all. I am still planning on attending the ACC Final because it could very well be the last meaningful match of 2012, but beyond that, I don't know if I can muster up the will to attend any other league matches this season while the current regime is in place. I say that with the realization that I will likely have to eat the cost for my remaining seasons tickets, and probably won't even be able to give them away if I tried.

jabbronies
05-20-2012, 11:06 PM
Firing Winter is not the answer people, you have to fire everyone!

6 years
6 managers
100+ players?

What's the common denominator? The management team. I'm sorry everyone but I've joined that side of the argument.

nascarguy
05-20-2012, 11:14 PM
if bell and rogers clean house now there is still time to turn this season around. mlse needs to go 1st

DangerRed
05-20-2012, 11:17 PM
While we're on the subject, it was Winter who shipped Gordon, who many of you disliked anyway during his time here. Gordon has always been a favorite for his commitment, so this is newsworthy. Watch his Columbus goal if you have a chance...

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/05/20/gordon-providing-san-jose-vital-spark-bench

Rene Kingsriver
05-20-2012, 11:21 PM
Apparently our 0-9 record is now due to having too many Canadians. I really don't understand what kind of hold Winter has over some people on this board. Let's be honest any FO with an ounce of football sense wouldn't have given him an MLS head coach position in the first place (have they never heard of Gullit???). Regardless of the fuck ups at ML$E, I don't for the life of me see how anyone cannot make the primary responsibility for being 0-9 his, really I can't!

Roogsy
05-20-2012, 11:24 PM
We've always had lots of Canadians. We've never been this bad. That is simply not the problem. When things are going bad, you have to be careful not to blame the shadows and concentrate on the real problems. Having Canadians may not be an advantage but it has little impact on our overall record.

Yohan
05-20-2012, 11:24 PM
Apparently our 0-9 record is now due to having too many Canadians. I really don't understand what kind of hold Winter has over some people on this board. Let's be honest any FO with an ounce of football sense wouldn't have given him an MLS head coach position in the first place (have they never heard of Gullit???). Regardless of the fuck ups at ML$E, I don't for the life of me see how anyone cannot make the primary responsibility for being 0-9 his, really I can't!
what does Gullit have anything to do with Winter, other than that they are both Dutch?

Relja
05-20-2012, 11:26 PM
While we're on the subject, it was Winter who shipped Gordon, who many of you disliked anyway during his time here. Gordon has always been a favorite for his commitment, so this is newsworthy. Watch his Columbus goal if you have a chance...

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/05/20/gordon-providing-san-jose-vital-spark-bench

I liked Gordon during his time here and wish we hadn't traded him. He like Dero was able to get that crucial goal when needed (LA Galaxy game for example).


As for Koevermans interview.... Ive been a bit unimpressed with his play recently, however you can see the pain in his face and you can tell it means that much to him to get the win and do everything he can....I guess i should lighten up on him a bit, but we need to get a couple of wins for christs sake.

jabbronies
05-20-2012, 11:28 PM
While we're on the subject, it was Winter who shipped Gordon, who many of you disliked anyway during his time here. Gordon has always been a favorite for his commitment, so this is newsworthy. Watch his Columbus goal if you have a chance...

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/05/20/gordon-providing-san-jose-vital-spark-bench

He also missed most of last season with an injury. His work ethic was never the problem, he was injury prone. Besides, I would take Danny Koevermans over him any day. He is only 1 goal less than gordan as we speak.

bman27
05-20-2012, 11:30 PM
Apparently our 0-9 record is now due to having too many Canadians. I really don't understand what kind of hold Winter has over some people on this board. Let's be honest any FO with an ounce of football sense wouldn't have given him an MLS head coach position in the first place (have they never heard of Gullit???). Regardless of the fuck ups at ML$E, I don't for the life of me see how anyone cannot make the primary responsibility for being 0-9 his, really I can't! I Don't think anyone is thinking right now that Winter is not responsible for our record, but Winter is a symptom of the real illness, that we have management who know shit all about soccer and care about nothing other then making money. bringing Winter in was not ever about results, bringing him in was a giant pr exercise, appease the SSH's and supporters with the romantic idea of a european manager from a storied club to not only win, but to develop a future and to "change the way the game is played in this league." They sold us a pipe dream and ran all the way to the bank.

Rene Kingsriver
05-20-2012, 11:32 PM
what does Gullit have anything to do with Winter, other than that they are both Dutch?

Er No MLS experience, in fact you're right they're not the same Gullit actually had previous head coach experience. Winters arrogant attititude towards the MLS has done nothing but stoke every single team that we play against. I can't blame him for taking the job after being unemployed for 18 months, I can't even blame him for holding on for dear life to get his package but even with Anselmi and his cronies around we'll be infinitely better off without Winter

Richard
05-20-2012, 11:39 PM
I just dont understand after all these years with shity T.O teams the top bosses at MLSE didnt get axed, even from a PR perspective this should have happened a long time ago. The teachers pension fund only cared about the money(which is justifiableas as they are an investment entity but not morally correct) so they kept everything as is because all teams made money. I think this is a classic example of a monopoly and how all the problems associated with it, the Bell/Rogers ownership may turn to out differently because they have T.V ratings to worry about(ADV revenue).

Yohan
05-20-2012, 11:40 PM
Er No MLS experience, in fact you're right they're not the same Gullit actually had previous head coach experience. Winters arrogant attititude towards the MLS has done nothing but stoke every single team that we play against. I can't blame him for taking the job after being unemployed for 18 months, I can't even blame him for holding on for dear life to get his package but even with Anselmi and his cronies around we'll be infinitely better off without Winteryou do know that coaches without MLS experience can succeed in MLS?

QSIM
05-21-2012, 12:05 AM
Well since any of them last made the playoffs (2008) its....

W288
L397
D/OTL88

Rene Kingsriver
05-21-2012, 12:12 AM
you do know that coaches without MLS experience can succeed in MLS?

Well Winter ain't one of them

Kevvv
05-21-2012, 12:26 AM
I just dont understand after all these years with shity T.O teams the top bosses at MLSE didnt get axed, even from a PR perspective this should have happened a long time ago. The teachers pension fund only cared about the money(which is justifiableas as they are an investment entity but not morally correct) so they kept everything as is because all teams made money. I think this is a classic example of a monopoly and how all the problems associated with it, the Bell/Rogers ownership may turn to out differently because they have T.V ratings to worry about(ADV revenue).

Not a monopoly like phone service or cable, since I can choose not to watch the Leafs, few people watch TFC on TV, and right now TFC couldn't fill BMO Field if admission was free. But to your point, part of the acquisition is to provide content, and the better the teams, and the longer they keep playing, the more viewers they'll have.

OTPP is about making money, but I wouldn't call them cheap when it comes to player payroll. Unfortunately, they just seem clueles and unable to figure out how to successfully run a team.

reggie
05-21-2012, 12:33 AM
I can't think of any, not even TFC. Henry's the only u20 in our back line
i stand corrected,,MORGAN is 21 and HENRY is 19...picky picky..

Yohan
05-21-2012, 02:45 AM
i stand corrected,,MORGAN is 21 and HENRY is 19...picky picky..

your posts look better and convincing if you can provide the correct facts

Pookie
05-21-2012, 07:05 AM
We've always had lots of Canadians. We've never been this bad. That is simply not the problem. When things are going bad, you have to be careful not to blame the shadows and concentrate on the real problems. Having Canadians may not be an advantage but it has little impact on our overall record.

I would disagree with this for a couple of reasons.

First. "Never been this bad" is a relative term. We have never made the playoffs, ever. All campaigns have had a high reliance on players from a shallow talent pool, the same pool Earl Cochrane was involved in with the CSA, and all campaigns have ended in failure.

Second, We have had high numbers before because the quota required us to have them. Now, there is a lower quota. To not look at it as a strategic direction is foolish.

Third, our best campaign arguably came in 2009 when we missed the playoffs by a point. The roster included 7 Canadians. 3 of whom are barely worth noting given their few appearances and timing of arrival/departure (Gerba, De Guzman and Gala). Of the remaining 4, Attakora was a late game sub. While Serioux and DeRosario had validated their talent by earning jobs in the USA prior to coming here.

That last point is important as Canadians counted, and still do count, as Internationals under MLS quota rules. Both payers had beaten out International players for roster spots. Given that this year, only 8 Canucks are employed by the 16 MLS clubs, this validates that we had a couple of really good players here.

Brennan was the other one.

All 3 played significant minutes and were experienced. All 3 had a skill set that could compete very well against US led teams.

On our current roster, which Canadians are both experienced and could be swapped today to a US team and take an International roster spot?

Pookie
05-21-2012, 07:07 AM
The problem is that most of our "informed" fans won't acknowledge that.

Mostly it's not Canadian anti-American nationalism encouraging that idea it's the pervasive Anglo/Europhilia that's been the bane of our club since we started. Most of our fans never wanted an MLS team and, 6 years of fail later, they've either given up on TFC or have still not learned much about the league we play in. They still mock the NCAA and diminish the significance of the draft even as we keep getting beat by teams built using the same player pool we're given access to. I had an epic series of posts on U-Sector arguing with someone over this very point. Even if our academy flourishes and does eventually consistently produce more "professional ready" players in 5 to 10 years that should be additive not exclusive. It's simply foolish to concentrate most of our energy on only finding the best talent out of the 6 million people in the GTA when there's an entire network channeling talent into MLS that covers a nation of over 300 million. It's just a numbers game at a certain point.

(I'll edit to post a link to the thread on U-Sector if I can find it. You might enjoy reading it.)

Edit: Found it: http://z15.invisionfree.com/U_Sector/index.php?showtopic=15637&st=45 Continues on the next page from the linked one too.

Great post

KRO
05-21-2012, 07:55 AM
Didn't Barry Fry at Peterborough or Birmingham get some kind of voodoo-doctor into the stadium to get rid of the curse? We could do something like that? *getting desparate*

It was at Birmingham. He tried everything including walking around the pitch and pissing in each corner on the advice of a clairvoyant. Any volunteers?

69Chevy396
05-21-2012, 08:09 AM
Great post

It is apparent in 2012 that any reliance on the mediocre pool of Canadian talent will prevent winning teams. Montreal and Vancouver have quickly realized this, the dimwits at mlse simply don't get it. One issue I seemed to have missed in all of this, do top TFC academy graduates join TFC automatically, or do they have to go through the draft once they are eligible? And, if they produce any world class talent, whats to prevent them from leaving for Europe?

denime
05-21-2012, 08:26 AM
Blame Canadians as much as you want,they wont go away,actually the number of Canadians will increase.
The main reason why all 4 professional teams supporters Rob Newman and not V.Montagliani.

Montagliani promised that CSA will go after MLS to increase a minimum of Canadian players on the rosters of all Canadian teams.It is in Canadian interest and he will go for it.


http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/05/09/new-canadian-soccer-association-president-makes-culture-change-a-priority/

The MLS clubs were hoping to eliminate the quota when Montreal joined Vancouver and Toronto in the league this season. But the CSA lobbied to keep the minimum number of Canadians on the three teams at three. Montagliani thinks there is still more MLS can do to increase the participation of Canadians in the league.

“These are issues we are working through to find common ground, so that it benefits the country and the club,” he said. “We can’t afford to have the age-old debate of club versus country. Especially in Canada, it has to be club and country.”

Beach_Red
05-21-2012, 08:45 AM
Not a monopoly like phone service or cable, since I can choose not to watch the Leafs, few people watch TFC on TV, and right now TFC couldn't fill BMO Field if admission was free. But to your point, part of the acquisition is to provide content, and the better the teams, and the longer they keep playing, the more viewers they'll have.

OTPP is about making money, but I wouldn't call them cheap when it comes to player payroll. Unfortunately, they just seem clueles and unable to figure out how to successfully run a team.

Yes, but within each option it's a monopoly. MLSE will work harder at keeping another NHL team out of Toronto than they will making the Leafs winners. If you want to watch the top level soccer available in north America you'll have to pay them.

This may be at the root of the the lack of respect for the competition these guys seem to have. They do spend to the cap, they have invested in an academy, but so have most of the other teams, it's just not enough. They talk like it makes them special instead of just average.

Shakes McQueen
05-21-2012, 09:04 AM
Blame Canadians as much as you want,they wont go away,actually the number of Canadians will increase.
The main reason why all 4 professional teams supporters Rob Newman and not V.Montagliani.

Montagliani promised that CSA will go after MLS to increase a minimum of Canadian players on the rosters of all Canadian teams.It is in Canadian interest and he will go for it.


http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/05/09/new-canadian-soccer-association-president-makes-culture-change-a-priority/

So the CSA consistently fails at producing lots of good young Canadian players, but they expect the Canadian MLS teams to cope with their meagre results. Unreal. If I were the MLS, I'd consider telling the CSA to get stuffed.

- Scott

Fort York Redcoat
05-21-2012, 09:12 AM
I understand the anti academy/Canada talent stance. It's dificult to be patient and find the line when that line between using Academy/draft/imports but we must aspire, yes aspire to be less insular and lazy in simply falling back on the system that works for other NA sports. They aren't even close to being as international or inspirational to Canadians to participate.

I concede that the NCAA is a necessary evil but it's absolutely something we should be getting away from as best we can. That system doesn't have Canada in mind.

bigredone
05-21-2012, 09:38 AM
Day 1 supporter, me...$50 deposit club and I just don't care anymore.
MLSE, how did you fuck the dog so badly that we come to this?

An embarassment from top to bottom led by a coach who thinks tactics are small mints and a club run by a bunch of guys who know fuck all about the game.
MLS may need to step in here and ask some serious questions as to the running of this joke of a Football Club.


Fuck Wednesday- can't be arsed...how embarassing is it to be 'Champions' if we win, with a fucking 0-9 record of futility in the league.

It will be more embarrassing for Vancouver!

the-lower-eastsider
05-21-2012, 09:43 AM
well well. another league match. another league loss. 0-9 now. AND COUNTING. but its ok everyone. because shakes mqueen says we played that great game against montreal back on may 9th and are gonna be playing in the all important final this wednesday for the amway cdn championship. oh goody *hands clapping*. were "maybe" gonna win the amway cup *jumping up and down*. give me a fuckin break. newsflash, assclown: nobody gives a fuck. except u and some of the other kool-aid drinkers. its the league that counts and anyone with half a brain knows that. the team is the laughing stock of the league and maybe even the entire soccer world and it is "supporters" (or internet warriors) like u who keep it that way. as a collective group we have a golden opportunity to do something extraordinary to voice and display our displeasure with the organization and the people responsible that have run this team right into the ditch, but we havent taken that opportunity and its beyond me why there isnt non stop talk of organizing massive protests on here. any other group of "supporters" anywhere else in the world would not be taking this horseshit lying down. they would be organizing and staging massive protests against this fucking dog and pony show MLSE is running. period. but what do this outfit do? just keep taking it up the ass. hey shakes: enjoy your amway nutrilite canadian championsip or whatever the fuck its called. me? im giving my tickets to a couple of homeless guys outside the liquor store (if they'll take them). still got room in the treehouse for them? and when anyone wants to get serious and help organize or contribute any mass protest ideas, let me know. and i'll be all over it. and btw, my idea of a mass mooning still stands. in the meantime the rest of u just keep drinking the kool-aid up in the treehouse. oh and in the words of barbarez...fuck off.

AL-MO
05-21-2012, 09:56 AM
well well. another league match. another league loss. 0-9 now. AND COUNTING. but its ok everyone. because shakes mqueen says we played that great game against montreal back on may 9th and are gonna be playing in the all important final this wednesday for the amway cdn championship. oh goody *hands clapping*. were "maybe" gonna win the amway cup *jumping up and down*. give me a fuckin break. newsflash, assclown: nobody gives a fuck. except u and some of the other kool-aid drinkers. its the league that counts and anyone with half a brain knows that. the team is the laughing stock of the league and maybe even the entire soccer world and it is "supporters" (or internet warriors) like u who keep it that way. as a collective group we have a golden opportunity to do something extraordinary to voice and display our displeasure with the organization and the people responsible that have run this team right into the ditch, but we havent taken that opportunity and its beyond me why there isnt non stop talk of organizing massive protests on here. any other group of "supporters" anywhere else in the world would not be taking this horseshit lying down. they would be organizing and staging massive protests against this fucking dog and pony show MLSE is running. period. but what do this outfit do? just keep taking it up the ass. hey shakes: enjoy your amway nutrilite canadian championsip or whatever the fuck its called. me? im giving my tickets to a couple of homeless guys outside the liquor store (if they'll take them). still got room in the treehouse for them? and when anyone wants to get serious and help organize or contribute any mass protest ideas, let me know. and i'll be all over it. and btw, my idea of a mass mooning still stands. in the meantime the rest of u just keep drinking the kool-aid up in the treehouse. oh and in the words of barbarez...fuck off.

Craiger....I will be in touch.

:flare:

Jack
05-21-2012, 10:09 AM
well well. another league match. another league loss. 0-9 now. AND COUNTING. but its ok everyone. because shakes mqueen says we played that great game against montreal back on may 9th and are gonna be playing in the all important final this wednesday for the amway cdn championship. oh goody *hands clapping*. were "maybe" gonna win the amway cup *jumping up and down*. give me a fuckin break. newsflash, assclown: nobody gives a fuck. except u and some of the other kool-aid drinkers. its the league that counts and anyone with half a brain knows that. the team is the laughing stock of the league and maybe even the entire soccer world and it is "supporters" (or internet warriors) like u who keep it that way. as a collective group we have a golden opportunity to do something extraordinary to voice and display our displeasure with the organization and the people responsible that have run this team right into the ditch, but we havent taken that opportunity and its beyond me why there isnt non stop talk of organizing massive protests on here. any other group of "supporters" anywhere else in the world would not be taking this horseshit lying down. they would be organizing and staging massive protests against this fucking dog and pony show MLSE is running. period. but what do this outfit do? just keep taking it up the ass. hey shakes: enjoy your amway nutrilite canadian championsip or whatever the fuck its called. me? im giving my tickets to a couple of homeless guys outside the liquor store (if they'll take them). still got room in the treehouse for them? and when anyone wants to get serious and help organize or contribute any mass protest ideas, let me know. and i'll be all over it. and btw, my idea of a mass mooning still stands. in the meantime the rest of u just keep drinking the kool-aid up in the treehouse. oh and in the words of barbarez...fuck off.
OK Craiger, so basically what you're saying is:

The TFC supporters (which are really internet warriors and not real supporters like yourself) should be organizing massive protests.
You aren't organizing anything, but will be giving away your tickets.
When someone else does the work of organizing something, you'll be there to ride along.

I understand that you're angry, but I don't get the disconnect here. It's really easy to call other people out on the internet, but if we're really going to get something going, then being divisive, calling others Kool-aid drinkers (which is just getting fucking tiresome at this point) and telling other supporters to fuck off is not going to help anyone. Do you really think any single one of us is happy about what's going on with this team? Honestly?

"Hey, TFC supporter, your team is 0-9, how do you feel?"

"I'm ecstatic!! :scarf:"

Give me a fucking break!

Jack
05-21-2012, 10:12 AM
So the CSA consistently fails at producing lots of good young Canadian players, but they expect the Canadian MLS teams to cope with their meagre results. Unreal. If I were the MLS, I'd consider telling the CSA to get stuffed.

- Scott
Well, Scott, the reality is that most football associations in the world work in some sort of partnership with the clubs to help with the development of the nation's talent. You can't expect the CSA to develop the talent on its own in our country without support from the professional clubs. There has to be some sort of partnership.

DangerRed
05-21-2012, 10:15 AM
He also missed most of last season with an injury. His work ethic was never the problem, he was injury prone. Besides, I would take Danny Koevermans over him any day. He is only 1 goal less than gordan as we speak.

Exactly. Compare their salaries, then tell me who's better value for money. I think Danny's great and am glad he's on the team, but giving Gordon away was bone-headed.

As for Gordon's injury, he told me personally that they misdiagnosed his hernia and forced him to play with it even though he was unhealthy. When he pushed back, there was an argument and soon they began talking about trading him. Winter, Mariner and BDK at their best.

Shakes McQueen
05-21-2012, 10:21 AM
Well, Scott, the reality is that most football associations in the world work in some sort of partnership with the clubs to help with the development of the nation's talent. You can't expect the CSA to develop the talent on its own in our country without support from the professional clubs. There has to be some sort of partnership.

You're right, and to that end TFC in particular have done a great job of doing the things the CSA is not - like setting up a well run academy, that takes Canadian kids in at a young age, and hopefully grooms them to one day play for our Canadian MLS team.

But it's also legendary how inept the CSA is, which makes this lobbying to force the Canadian MLS teams to take in their pupils pretty galling. Support to develop Canadian talent doesn't isn't the same as forcing Canadian "top tier" clubs to fill a quota of Canadian players.

- Scott

Jack
05-21-2012, 10:24 AM
You're right, and to that end TFC in particular have done a great job of doing the things the CSA is not - like setting up a well run academy, that takes Canadian kids in at a young age, and hopefully grooms them to one day play for our Canadian MLS team.

But it's also legendary how inept the CSA is, which makes this lobbying to force the Canadian MLS teams to take in their pupils pretty galling. Support to develop Canadian talent doesn't isn't the same as forcing Canadian "top tier" clubs to fill a quota of Canadian players.

- Scott
True enough. Hopefully, the continued change at the CSA can get things moving in the right direction so we can have a positive atmosphere around the sport in Canada, rather than a toxic one that causes our brightest young stars to seek out whichever other nationality they can.

reggie
05-21-2012, 10:28 AM
[QUOTE=Yohan;1491571]your posts look better and convincing if you can provide the correct facts[/QUOTE
Ok i was a year off on morgan's age,the point i was making you cant have 2 starters around that age has starters.
chill man.

bigredone
05-21-2012, 10:35 AM
OK Craiger, so basically what you're saying is:

The TFC supporters (which are really internet warriors and not real supporters like yourself) should be organizing massive protests.
You aren't organizing anything, but will be giving away your tickets.
When someone else does the work of organizing something, you'll be there to ride along.

I understand that you're angry, but I don't get the disconnect here. It's really easy to call other people out on the internet, but if we're really going to get something going, then being divisive, calling others Kool-aid drinkers (which is just getting fucking tiresome at this point) and telling other supporters to fuck off is not going to help anyone. Do you really think any single one of us is happy about what's going on with this team? Honestly?

"Hey, TFC supporter, your team is 0-9, how do you feel?"

"I'm ecstatic!! :scarf:"

Give me a fucking break!

Hey supporters of the Canadian Army, Afghan ain't going well so fuck off.

Thank you Jack for posting your response. My thoughts were much more profane on that rant.

Why did this angry fellow tell me to fuck off? Because I buy only discounted tickets due to income? Because I have a 6 year old jersey? Because I pre-drink to avoid the beer prices? I love T.O. sports teams and football. I can't not do what I love. I may have joined the boards this year only, but my love of the game is not a trend like many seem to be riding.

Yohan
05-21-2012, 10:38 AM
It is apparent in 2012 that any reliance on the mediocre pool of Canadian talent will prevent winning teams. Montreal and Vancouver have quickly realized this, the dimwits at mlse simply don't get it.
Or, because TFC had first dip on Canadian pool, Vancouver and Montreal make do with scraps.

One issue I seemed to have missed in all of this, do top TFC academy graduates join TFC automatically, or do they have to go through the draft once they are eligible? And, if they produce any world class talent, whats to prevent them from leaving for Europe?

Academy players that meet homegrown status can be signed under that rule. They don't have to go through draft as HG players. Academy players pretty much can leave for Europe whenever they want (TFC Academy lost 3 players to this already)

Pookie
05-21-2012, 11:05 AM
I wish folks would stop labelling the "Canadian" content issue as one against our players. I have Serioux's name on the back of one of my jerseys. If they are good enough, they can play every minute, every game.

The issue is with roster management. Aside from the strength of the talent pool we are working in, Canadian roster players are largely untradeable under MLS rules. You have to be good enough to beat out an International player to work with 16 MLS teams. That's why the grand total of Canadians playing south of the border is a whooping 8. As in we have more Canadians on TFC than ALL USA BASED MLS teams

I know the CSA's stance well. Interesting TFC joined Vancouver and lobbied to have the quota reduced to 0. They then signed 9... 9 more than they were lobbying for and more than the original quota that they originally said made it hard to compete.

The man at the table representing TFC once Mo was out of the way? Earl Cochrane, he who spent somewhere around 5 years working for the CSA. If our technical director knew we had talent ready to go and felt they were stronger than US players, why in the hell would he sit at the table to lower the quota to make it easier for other teams?

Or did Mr Earl simply sit, support the CSA in their stance to have it raised to 3 (from the proposed 0) and then quietly enact his agenda after the fact?

Chevy
05-21-2012, 11:12 AM
Hey supporters of the Canadian Army, Afghan ain't going well so fuck off.

Thank you Jack for posting your response. My thoughts were much more profane on that rant.

Why did this angry fellow tell me to fuck off? Because I buy only discounted tickets due to income? Because I have a 6 year old jersey? Because I pre-drink to avoid the beer prices? I love T.O. sports teams and football. I can't not do what I love. I may have joined the boards this year only, but my love of the game is not a trend like many seem to be riding.

Considering our trials and tribulations over the years, these are the seven most intelligent words posted on these boards. I think we all should refer to this line on a regular basis. It will help us through the losses (more to come I'm sure), and will make the wins even sweeter (starting with another Canadian championship this week!!!)

Whoop
05-21-2012, 11:40 AM
http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/eurovision/archive/2012/05/21/dutch-development-model-highlights-where-england-are-going-wrong.aspx

Interesting article.

This interested me the most.




Following the introduction of the model by Louis van Gaal on behalf of the Dutch FA (KNVB) in 2002, it may be surprising to know that only 36 clubs in Holland are officially professional, but a further 2,700 amateur sides benefit from the KNVB’s £1 billion investment every year.



£1 billion seems pretty high no?

Blizzard
05-21-2012, 12:05 PM
Exactly. Compare their salaries, then tell me who's better value for money. I think Danny's great and am glad he's on the team, but giving Gordon away was bone-headed.

As for Gordon's injury, he told me personally that they misdiagnosed his hernia and forced him to play with it even though he was unhealthy. When he pushed back, there was an argument and soon they began talking about trading him. Winter, Mariner and BDK at their best.

Pushed back? Argument? He physically assaulted one of the club's therapists! That's an unacceptable act by any player at any time!

jloome
05-21-2012, 12:10 PM
We've always had lots of Canadians. We've never been this bad. That is simply not the problem. When things are going bad, you have to be careful not to blame the shadows and concentrate on the real problems. Having Canadians may not be an advantage but it has little impact on our overall record.

Given that most of them wouldn't be starting on any other team in the league? Yeah, it has a pretty significant impact.

DangerRed
05-21-2012, 12:15 PM
Pushed back? Argument? He physically assaulted one of the club's therapists! That's an unacceptable act by any player at any time!

Thats a big accusation. Do you have ANY proof at all, or are you just repeating something you heard? Did he punch someone? Or shove them? Very different, but both called physical assault.

Wingback6
05-21-2012, 12:39 PM
Gonna wade in here briefly.

I don't think the problem is winter. Though he is a bit of a tool. Or the players per se.

Clearly it is upper management but.... the real problem.

This team doesn't have an owner. A real owner. Some clubs do ok being owned by hedge-funds, or whatever, or a group of football fan rich guys. Or one football fan rich guy. This team doesn't have any of that. It is an asset. You want an other example of a club that is just somebody's asset : Blackburn Rovers, and look what a fuck show they've become since Venky's (Damn those chicken fuckers to hell!!) took over.

If this team had a proper owner, none of these problems. Owners make management accountable. Anselmi, and Cochrane are essentially un-accountable to anyone. They are accountable to a board, which means the decisions made about them take forever, and can be delayed through politiking, but they can make decisions about others in a heart beat.

If this team had an actual owner, Anselmi, and Cochrane would be gone, and Mo Jo would have been fired two years earlier. At the end of the day an owner is, and should be a fan, and in that way the club is accountable to the fan's. Because it belongs to one of them.

This is a very specific ideal, and obviously there are all kinds of owners, but if you look at most of the financially, and competitively successful teams on earth, they have good owners. Bad players/managers, can ruin clubs if given time, but a bad owner can destroy a one hundred year old club in months. Just look at Rangers.

ManUtd4ever
05-21-2012, 12:48 PM
Gonna wade in here briefly.

I don't think the problem is winter. Though he is a bit of a tool. Or the players per se.

Clearly it is upper management but.... the real problem.

This team doesn't have an owner. A real owner. Some clubs do ok being owned by hedge-funds, or whatever, or a group of football fan rich guys. Or one football fan rich guy. This team doesn't have any of that. It is an asset. You want an other example of a club that is just somebody's asset : Blackburn Rovers, and look what a fuck show they've become since Venky's (Damn those chicken fuckers to hell!!) took over.

If this team had a proper owner, none of these problems. Owners make management accountable. Anselmi, and Cochrane are essentially un-accountable to anyone. They are accountable to a board, which means the decisions made about them take forever, and can be delayed through politiking, but they can make decisions about others in a heart beat.

If this team had an actual owner, Anselmi, and Cochrane would be gone, and Mo Jo would have been fired two years earlier. At the end of the day an owner is, and should be a fan, and in that way the club is accountable to the fan's. Because it belongs to one of them.

This is a very specific ideal, and obviously there are all kinds of owners, but if you look at most of the financially, and competitively successful teams on earth, they have good owners. Bad players/managers, can ruin clubs if given time, but a bad owner can destroy a one hundred year old club in months. Just look at Rangers.

Agreed. Despite the fact that MLSE has allocated ample financial resources towards building a contender, the lack of accountability within the front office has ultimately proven to be the downfall of the organization.

Shakes McQueen
05-21-2012, 12:55 PM
well well. another league match. another league loss. 0-9 now. AND COUNTING. but its ok everyone. because shakes mqueen says we played that great game against montreal back on may 9th and are gonna be playing in the all important final this wednesday for the amway cdn championship. oh goody *hands clapping*. were "maybe" gonna win the amway cup *jumping up and down*. give me a fuckin break. newsflash, assclown: nobody gives a fuck. except u and some of the other kool-aid drinkers. its the league that counts and anyone with half a brain knows that. the team is the laughing stock of the league and maybe even the entire soccer world and it is "supporters" (or internet warriors) like u who keep it that way. as a collective group we have a golden opportunity to do something extraordinary to voice and display our displeasure with the organization and the people responsible that have run this team right into the ditch, but we havent taken that opportunity and its beyond me why there isnt non stop talk of organizing massive protests on here. any other group of "supporters" anywhere else in the world would not be taking this horseshit lying down. they would be organizing and staging massive protests against this fucking dog and pony show MLSE is running. period. but what do this outfit do? just keep taking it up the ass. hey shakes: enjoy your amway nutrilite canadian championsip or whatever the fuck its called. me? im giving my tickets to a couple of homeless guys outside the liquor store (if they'll take them). still got room in the treehouse for them? and when anyone wants to get serious and help organize or contribute any mass protest ideas, let me know. and i'll be all over it. and btw, my idea of a mass mooning still stands. in the meantime the rest of u just keep drinking the kool-aid up in the treehouse. oh and in the words of barbarez...fuck off.

I appreciate the ridiculous insults, but what exactly does this have to do with me? I'm 99.8% sure I've never claimed that the ACC was more important than the league to begin with. In fact, while I consider the ACC an important thing to win every year, I'd gladly trade it for a league title any day of the week right now.

Of course, even if I did say it, this post is so insanely out of line that it doesn't really matter.

- Scott

Roogsy
05-21-2012, 02:45 PM
Given that most of them wouldn't be starting on any other team in the league? Yeah, it has a pretty significant impact.

Some would, some wouldn't. You could say that about some players on pretty much any roster in MLS. "He would not be starting on other teams". That is subjective. It is the quality of the team as a whole that matters, including the coaching and tactics. You will always have subpar players, you would hope the above-average players even out the impact. Isn't that why we have THREE DPs?