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bones
05-10-2012, 03:29 PM
I was reading an article about expansion of the Canadian Championship to make it a true open cup like the USA has (which for the record I don't agree but that's not the point I'm posting about)

Here's my question. Can TFC/MTL/VAN be considered a US team for the purpose of an entry into the Champions League? Here is the qualifying info from the Concacrap site:

The United States and Mexico received fourth berths each: the MLS regular season champion (Supporters' Shield winner) and MLS Cup winner and the U.S. Open Cup winner and MLS Cup runner-up.

Mexico also is granted four berths, the Apertura and Clausura champions as well as the runners-up.

Canada determines it champion through the Amway Canadian Championship.

So looking at that I'd say we get a minimum of 1 entry just like American teams get a minimum of 1 entry. And that it's possible that the other three entries based on the fact that the supporter shield, MLS Cup winner and loser all could be Canadian teams.

But, then I look at it and I say, NO, there will be 1 Canadian team who win's the Canadian Championship and if all the rest as above are Canadian teams then they need to take the top USA teams in the league, or how they do in the playoffs or ???

I've read before that only 1 Canadian team can qualify, and the Concacrap site says Canada get's 1 and USA get's 4 but it's just not 100% clear given the factors for determining who those are. This year, ya it's easy, but imagine Edmonton FC win's next years Canadian Championship, MTL get's supporter shield, and we beat VanCity in the finals. Then what?

Oldtimer
05-10-2012, 03:35 PM
MLS results are irrelevant for CONCACAF purposes. Only the Canadian Championship determines who represents Canada. Supporters Shield, MLS Cup, none of it counts. In your example, Edmonton would represent Canada in the CCL.

If a Canadian team won the MLS Cup, then the highest US runner-up would get it for the US (they might have to do tie-breakers based on league points or something).

bigredone
05-10-2012, 03:38 PM
Thanks for the clarification. This is confusing and ridiculous. Now I will stamp my feet and pout.

MartinUtd
05-10-2012, 03:43 PM
Technically Canada only gets 0.5 spots in CONCACAF which is why we've had to play a preliminary round to go on to the group stages in the past. If we could get two more NASL teams up here I'd like to see us forgo the preliminaries.

Yohan
05-10-2012, 03:45 PM
Technically Canada only gets 0.5 spots in CONCACAF which is why we've had to play a preliminary round to go on to the group stages in the past. If we could get two more NASL teams up here I'd like to see us forgo the preliminaries.

no more prelim rounds. all teams that qualify for CCL goes directly into group stage. (8 groups, 3 teams per group, only first place in group advance to knockout stage)

lobo
05-10-2012, 03:48 PM
Our one and only route of entry to CCL is via the Canadian Championship tourney.

Bones, I'm curious why you would not want an open cup competition in Canada. I recognize there are barriers (limited number of clubs, travel costs), but almost every other country in the world has one, why not us?

And why can't we call it the Voyageurs Cup, instead of Canadian Championship. It is a cup competition, after all. I don't even care if it was the Amway Voyageurs Cup. It just seems odd to me that we use the word championship for a knockout tournament, while everyone else has their Cup, Coupe, Copa, Coppa, Cupen, etc. I'm sure the Voyageurs Cup title would inspire and serve as a symbol of national pride far better than amateur sounding 'Canadian Championship'.

__wowza
05-10-2012, 03:50 PM
MLS results are irrelevant for CONCACAF purposes. Only the Canadian Championship determines who represents Canada. Supporters Shield, MLS Cup, none of it counts. In your example, Edmonton would represent Canada in the CCL.

If a Canadian team won the MLS Cup, then the highest US runner-up would get it for the US (they might have to do tie-breakers based on league points or something).

i have a feeling that should canadian MLS teams start placing higher this rule might change, kindve like that silly rule where a UEFA champions league team can automatically qualify for the next years tournament if they win the previous year. i believe these rules would be amended if we saw TFC take the VC, vancity take the supporters shield, etc.

if they truly want the tournament to reflect "the best" the league has to offer, i can't see it giving a spot to a team who places 3rd or 4th.

Yohan
05-10-2012, 03:56 PM
i have a feeling that should canadian MLS teams start placing higher this rule might change, kindve like that silly rule where a UEFA champions league team can automatically qualify for the next years tournament if they win the previous year. i believe these rules would be amended if we saw TFC take the VC, vancity take the supporters shield, etc.

if they truly want the tournament to reflect "the best" the league has to offer, i can't see it giving a spot to a team who places 3rd or 4th.
and the counter argument would be, how many spots does a 5 team federation deserve

Flipityflu
05-10-2012, 04:01 PM
i don't think that will happen. US Soccer Fed will make a big deal about losing spots to Canada. we are Canadian teams in an American League....that has always been made quite clear.

bones
05-10-2012, 04:14 PM
Our one and only route of entry to CCL is via the Canadian Championship tourney.

Bones, I'm curious why you would not want an open cup competition in Canada. I recognize there are barriers (limited number of clubs, travel costs), but almost every other country in the world has one, why not us?

And why can't we call it the Voyageurs Cup, instead of Canadian Championship. It is a cup competition, after all. I don't even care if it was the Amway Voyageurs Cup. It just seems odd to me that we use the word championship for a knockout tournament, while everyone else has their Cup, Coupe, Copa, Coppa, Cupen, etc. I'm sure the Voyageurs Cup title would inspire and serve as a symbol of national pride far better than amateur sounding 'Canadian Championship'.

I'd like to know why this was moved to the TFC area when I was talking about MLS (and in an example said FCE once) representation in CCL??? ANYhoo...

I disagreed with a true open cup competition because I don't want to see professionals have career ending injuries against far less talented amateurs and their pitches. That's my big beef and I don't care what the positives are that one will always out weigh the positives for development etc. I did say that I'm ok with having the Voyagers Cup still being a 4 team playoff with the 3 top tier teams getting into this level automatically and the 1 entry can come from an elimination of 2nd tier and top amateur clubs so I'm not against giving smaller clubs a chance. It's just that I don't want our top level teams having to play a lot more with the risks. We don't have the depth.

As for the Voyagers Cup, we don't use it because we're not a big nation that is known for the sport so as an example, Canada=hockey to the rest of the world, therefor the Stanley Cup is known if you play hockey. Voyagers cup??? If you're from Balazamboodafilkasmashistan, the winner of the Voyagers cup is the one with the best body in a public nude display??? Ah you know what I mean. WE know it as the Voyagers Cup and we'll always call it that.


***disregard move thing, it's TFC/MLS NEWS, forgot this isn't NEWS*** (another beer please Tarbender)

WestStandGeoff
05-10-2012, 04:33 PM
I disagreed with a true open cup competition because I don't want to see professionals have career ending injuries against far less talented amateurs and their pitches.

That's pretty easy to work around... first, you would have the non/semi-pro teams play each other in earlier stages, before the USL/MLS teams come in. This is how it works with the FA cup - EPL teams don't come in until the 3rd round (which technically isn't even the 3rd round, since there are a few qualifying rounds for the non-league teams to make it into the competition). As for the pitch quality, the organizing body can have the final say on where games are played. Assuming that you would only have a couple teams outside USL/MLS quality to play with the big boys, I'm sure a college/university/CFL field can be found within a reasonable distance from the home city to host a match.

David_Oliveira
05-10-2012, 04:41 PM
It would be cool for say SC Toronto to play Toronto FC. Could you imagine going to Lamport to watch this game? I think it would be an interesting experience

kodiakTFC
05-10-2012, 04:52 PM
I'd be open to CSL and PCSL teams in the Voyageurs Cup if they drew a substantial amount of fans. I do wonder what happens in 2014 when Ottawa joins NASL and we have 5 Canadian teams. I foresee a NASL play-in round.

kodiakTFC
05-10-2012, 04:55 PM
Well look at this..

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/05/10/throw-its-time-true-canadian-open-cup

__wowza
05-10-2012, 04:55 PM
and the counter argument would be, how many spots does a 5 team federation deserve

^ agreed, but the counter to that would be "fuck federations, this is an exception for a league".
if you're going to go by whose best in 'merica based off of domestic success, then you must truly count it as domestic (ie: the lamar hunt) and not a ranking in a league comprised of two different countries. having said that, i can go either way on this. personally i'd like to see an american slot knocked down and left as a wildcard for the league in future fixtures.

bones
05-10-2012, 05:23 PM
Well look at this..

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/05/10/throw-its-time-true-canadian-open-cup

This would be the article that started off the whole thing. See my comments at the bottom. :)

bones
05-10-2012, 05:25 PM
That's pretty easy to work around... first, you would have the non/semi-pro teams play each other in earlier stages, before the USL/MLS teams come in. This is how it works with the FA cup - EPL teams don't come in until the 3rd round (which technically isn't even the 3rd round, since there are a few qualifying rounds for the non-league teams to make it into the competition). As for the pitch quality, the organizing body can have the final say on where games are played. Assuming that you would only have a couple teams outside USL/MLS quality to play with the big boys, I'm sure a college/university/CFL field can be found within a reasonable distance from the home city to host a match.


This was kinda what I was getting to about opening it up to amateurs in a pre-round elimination to get the 1 spot left of 4 with the 3 MLS teams getting those spots locked in.

Yohan
05-10-2012, 05:49 PM
This has been discussed few times before, but there is no reason why CSL/PDL can't run a knock out style qualifiers, or even group stage qualifiers regionally in the fall, after respective leagues finish.

denime
05-10-2012, 05:52 PM
Victor Montagliani new president of the Canadian Soccer Association on Voyagers Cup:

If there was any item that showed off just how good a politician Montagliani will be, his answer on the future of the Amway Canadian Championship showed it off. Yes, he does support a tournament that is open to a wider field than four teams — and that goes hand-in-hand with devising regional professional leagues.

The winners could get paths into the ACC. But, at the same time, he warned that clubs have to be aware of the costs associated with winning the tournament, that it’s awfully expensive to send a team down to Central America for CONCACAF Champions League away matches. So, the message was, yes, widen the tournament. But, at the same time, each team that enters has to be able to take on the burden of being a CCL team.


http://the11.ca/2012/05/08/new-csa-president-montagliani-strikes-conciliatory-tones/

Flipityflu
05-10-2012, 06:40 PM
the best part of that quote is the vision of one of the smaller clubs winning and have to play in central america. thats the beauty of having an open cup competition.

and i bet if that happened, a donation scheme would be very successful.

rockxlee
05-10-2012, 07:14 PM
You can't have teams flying around the continent paid for by donation drives, thats bush league stuff.

Canadian teams have one of the easiest routes to make it into the CCL group stage. There is no way CONCACAF will award another spot for a 4 team tournament.

The situation isn't unique either. Teams from Wales (Cardiff,Swansea) can't qualify for the UCL even if they finish top 4 in the Premiere League.

Stop acting butt hurt because we can't qualify through MLS, it's been a blessing.

OgtheDim
05-10-2012, 07:22 PM
I was going to say CONCACAF pitches have to reach a certain standard......then I remember Cuban fields.

tfcmanu
05-11-2012, 04:05 PM
Well Lets See 20 potential Cdn Teams: exclude academies


PDL:

Hamilton Fc Rage
Toronto Lynx
Thunder Bay Chill
WSA Winnipeg
Ottawa Fury
Victoria Highlanders FC

CSL:



SC Waterloo

1

1



2


3



TFC Academy

1

1



4

2

3



York Region Shooters

1

1



1


3



Mississauga Eagles FC










Niagara United










London City










Brampton City Utd










Serbian White Eagles










Montreal Impact Academy










St. Catharines Roma Wolves










Toronto Croatia










SC Toronto










North York Astros










Brantford Galaxy

1


1



1




Kingston FC

1


1


2

4




Windsor Stars

NASL:

FC Edmonton

T-boy
05-11-2012, 09:44 PM
You can't have teams flying around the continent paid for by donation drives, thats bush league stuff.

Canadian teams have one of the easiest routes to make it into the CCL group stage. There is no way CONCACAF will award another spot for a 4 team tournament.

The situation isn't unique either. Teams from Wales (Cardiff,Swansea) can't qualify for the UCL even if they finish top 4 in the Premiere League.

Stop acting butt hurt because we can't qualify through MLS, it's been a blessing.


You are actually completely wrong on that actually!

Welsh clubs CAN qualify for the European cups if they finish high enough in the English leagues: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17459332

So, it kind of makes the TFC/Canadian clubs issue a little crazy! There is no reason why a Canadian team shouldn't be able to get a CCL spot if they win the MLS cup!

Oldtimer
05-11-2012, 10:08 PM
You are actually completely wrong on that actually!

Welsh clubs CAN qualify for the European cups if they finish high enough in the English leagues: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17459332

So, it kind of makes the TFC/Canadian clubs issue a little crazy! There is no reason why a Canadian team shouldn't be able to get a CCL spot if they win the MLS cup!

It's because those particular clubs are grandfathered in by the English FA. US Soccer could choose to allow their US spots to Canadian teams. The chance of this happening? 0%.

T-boy
05-12-2012, 08:57 AM
It's because those particular clubs are grandfathered in by the English FA. US Soccer could choose to allow their US spots to Canadian teams. The chance of this happening? 0%.

I think there would be a severe fight if one of the Canadian teams suddenly looked like winning the MLS cup! I don't think the English FA were interested either until Cardiff started playing well in the cups, and now Swansea are doing very well in the premiership. Lets say that TFC and Vancouver both got to the play off cup final - I think the MLS would have to really consider giving a CCL place to one of those teams - otherwise they are giving their premier place in the CCL to a third place team, at best!

Oldtimer
05-12-2012, 09:28 AM
^
I think they don't care. The "American First" idea is very strong. If Canadian teams could take away US CCL spots, there would be cries to kick the Canadian teams out of MLS, a la Bill Archer. MLS was set up so America could do well in the WC. Canadian teams are only allowed in as a favour.... and to collect our cash, thank-you very much. They don't mind helping out Canada to be ahead of Honduras, but certainly not at the expense of US Soccer.

Canadians would cry for US spots to be given to Canadian teams... but US Soccer's mandate is to Americans, they have zero responsibility for Canadians. What if a Barbados team was allowed into the CSL, and the CSL ultimately had an entry into the Voyageurs Cup competition? What if the Barbados team won, and TFC was second? Would you want Canada's lone spot to go to the Barbados team? I didn't think so...

Yohan
05-12-2012, 10:56 AM
I think there would be a severe fight if one of the Canadian teams suddenly looked like winning the MLS cup! I don't think the English FA were interested either until Cardiff started playing well in the cups, and now Swansea are doing very well in the premiership. Lets say that TFC and Vancouver both got to the play off cup final - I think the MLS would have to really consider giving a CCL place to one of those teams - otherwise they are giving their premier place in the CCL to a third place team, at best!
it would not be up to MLS to award US CCL spots. it's USSF, though MLS does have influence with USSF

Fort York Redcoat
05-12-2012, 12:18 PM
I think there would be a severe fight if one of the Canadian teams suddenly looked like winning the MLS cup! I don't think the English FA were interested either until Cardiff started playing well in the cups, and now Swansea are doing very well in the premiership. Lets say that TFC and Vancouver both got to the play off cup final - I think the MLS would have to really consider giving a CCL place to one of those teams - otherwise they are giving their premier place in the CCL to a third place team, at best!

1.TFC
2.Vancouver
3.Montreal

Even if that were the end standings of league season and 2 of those faced each other in MLS cup the rules are that places would go to the next US teams. Pretty straight forward. If it were to happen as it has in the NHL, MLB it would be egg on their face but that's all. They aren't about to change their rules to save face if it hurts US Soccer. And it would if they lose spots in CCL.

Which is fine by me. It would hurt both countries progress.

PAOK17
05-13-2012, 05:43 AM
I've been saying this for years now. If CONCACAF wants to be taken seriously it needs to adapt the coefficient rule used by UEFA in deciding how many clubs per country get a berth and at which stage of the tournament. For example England has had 4 berths in UEFA CL for years now (3 auto berths in the group stages and 1 in the last qualifying round). But if their teams start playing shitty in the tournament, that number WILL be decreased because their coefficient will go down. The coefficient standings are renewed every few years I believe. The number of berths is NOT influenced by the number of teams in the league and how that league's National Team performs. Also the number of teams per league is IRRELEVANT to how many spots a country gets. For example if Scottish teams all of a sudden start dominating in CL, their 12 team league could eventually yield 4 CL teams. There is no rule preventing this.

So yes even as a 5 team league we may seem a little Mickey Mouse in terms of having a champion get in but, is it not Mickey Mouse that Costa Rica and Panama has more spots than Canada? Again CONCACAF has to stop with arbitrary awarding of spots. The only country that has the spots right on is Mexico. Even the US is undeserving of 4 spots but if you want to give 4 to two countries then maybe they do have the second best performances of domestic clubs in the tournament. We shouldn't have to request for extra spots any more than the 1st place team in the 4 team AL West should have to request a spot in the playoffs. It should be based on wins/losses/draws within that tournament only.

denime
05-13-2012, 07:25 AM
You are actually completely wrong on that actually!

Welsh clubs CAN qualify for the European cups if they finish high enough in the English leagues: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17459332

So, it kind of makes the TFC/Canadian clubs issue a little crazy! There is no reason why a Canadian team shouldn't be able to get a CCL spot if they win the MLS cup!


MLS clubs in CCL are representing USSF and not MLS,if NASL team wins US Open Cup they will go to CCL representing USSF,or Edmonton in Canada.

MLS has not jurisdiction over CCL,it is USSF and in this case MLS must go trough them if they want to see any changes in who can or cannot qualify for CCL.

spe18
05-14-2012, 05:55 PM
Now, just to add pudding to the pie, here is how they decide qualification in the AFC Champions League :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Champions_League#Qualification

spe18
06-04-2012, 04:23 PM
i have a feeling that should canadian MLS teams start placing higher this rule might change, kindve like that silly rule where a UEFA champions league team can automatically qualify for the next years tournament if they win the previous year. i believe these rules would be amended if we saw TFC take the VC, vancity take the supporters shield, etc.

if they truly want the tournament to reflect "the best" the league has to offer, i can't see it giving a spot to a team who places 3rd or 4th.


Victor Montagliani new president of the Canadian Soccer Association on Voyagers Cup:


http://the11.ca/2012/05/08/new-csa-president-montagliani-strikes-conciliatory-tones/


Victor Montagliani new president of the Canadian Soccer Association on Voyagers Cup:
If there was any item that showed off just how good a politician Montagliani will be, his answer on the future of the Amway Canadian Championship showed it off. Yes, he does support a tournament that is open to a wider field than four teams — and that goes hand-in-hand with devising regional professional leagues.

The winners could get paths into the ACC. But, at the same time, he warned that clubs have to be aware of the costs associated with winning the tournament, that it’s awfully expensive to send a team down to Central America for CONCACAF Champions League away matches. So, the message was, yes, widen the tournament. But, at the same time, each team that enters has to be able to take on the burden of being a CCL team.






The problem with amateur teams advancing this far in the US Open Cup

http://www.buckssoccer.com/home/632447.html

In particular:

The Dayton Dutch Lions (USL Pro) upset the Columbus Crew of Major League Soccer at the same time that the Bucks were putting out the Chicago Fire. The two incredible upsets have the Dutch Lions coming to play the Bucks on Tuesday, June 5 (7:30 PM kick off). The venue for this Open Cup match will be moved to OaklandUniversity’s Varsity Field to accommodate a larger crowd than the 2,000 that packed the rafters at Ultimate Soccer Arenas for Tuesday’s round three match up with the Fire. The Bucks need a huge crowd to not only motivate the team, but to help offset the expense of hosting a Round Four match.
“When you get to this round, it will cost you at least $25,000 to host the match, so we need everyone we can muster up to come out and support the Bucks to help push them on to the next level, where the Bucks/ Lion winner is slated to travel to play the winner of the MLS showdown between FC Kansas City and the Colorado Rapids in the tournament’s final eight bracket.” Duggan explained.

OgtheDim
06-04-2012, 06:38 PM
Don't these teams get money for winning a round?

FIAF
06-04-2012, 07:11 PM
The seeds are merely the way they are to help US MLS teams.

Oldtimer
06-04-2012, 07:40 PM
Don't these teams get money for winning a round?

They should, but they probably don't in the earlier stages.

I have vivid memories of Dallas Roma's cindarella run a few years ageo. The bills went on the coach's credit card, and they held fundraisers and sold swag to help pay off the -debt afterwards.

OgtheDim
06-04-2012, 10:49 PM
Then you'd think the US soccer people would get on that somehow.........oh wait....it doesn't feed the MLS, NT or MNT?

__wowza
06-05-2012, 07:17 AM
“When you get to this round, it will cost you at least $25,000 to host the match, so we need everyone we can muster up to come out and support the Bucks to help push them on to the next level, where the Bucks/ Lion winner is slated to travel to play the winner of the MLS showdown between FC Kansas City and the Colorado Rapids in the tournament’s final eight bracket.” Duggan explained.

they also need floodlights level 2.

TOBOR !
06-05-2012, 07:41 AM
That's crap - the USSF should have a special fund to help in matters like these - maybe the club can pay back over time... lord knows there's plenty of $$$ in football administration, right from house leagues all the way up to FIFA.