Excitement Level

[michaeltfc91]

Obviously being 0-8-0, the fan excitement is going to be at a minimal. But I can't believe how far it has gone down. We get about 16,000 fans a game that actually come out. The last 2 home games, the away support has been louder than our support. BMO Field is the easiest place to play for an away side in MLS -- it is no where near the fortress we sorta had -- 5 straight home losses is an embarrassment. We were the best fans in MLS for the first 3 seasons -- but since then we are average and this season, the lowest.

What is even sadder is Toronto FC have still never scored a game winning goal at BMO Field in any competition past the 85th minute (Latest - De Ro 84th minute against Phili on a PK). When have we been treated to an exciting home game or goal? Dichio's first goal and final goal of 2007 were pretty exciting, but didn't matter in terms of playoffs. Since then, maybe the Yourassowsky goal against Vancouver to take a lead in the Canadian Championship final? The two home goals against LA in the Champions League Quarterfinal? We've never scored big goals at BMO Field, in fact opponents have scored the last minute goals or tying goals. San Jose in 2009, Cornell Glen embarrassed us and put us out of playoff position with a last minute tying goal. Hassli's goal last night looked unbelievable to the fans and we have never had that special moment in six years at home.

Just rambling, but the only thing we can be proud of is a semi final appearance in the Champions League which I am truly thankful for because it was a hell of a run. This is all we can say we have accomplished on the field. The future doesn't look any brighter -- maybe another Canadian Championship this year might help, but in terms of MLS still no playoffs or .500 seasons. I have been to 90% of the games and love this team more than anybody, but this team is killing me now and we need to win a game please. I can't wait until we improve and the excitement level is back at BMO Field with 22,000 loud fans making it a fortress. When that comes back, it will be awesome

Side Note -- Interesting Fact: Since 2007, Toronto FC is tied for the most trophies by an MLS team with 3 (Along with Seattle, LA, Columbus)
(This includes CONCACAF Champions league, MLS Cup, Supporters Shield, US Open Cup, Canadian Championship)
So maybe, we are a top team in MLS :)

[RedDevils]

The blame for the drop in supporter quality is on Paul Beirne. He got everything wrong on day one and we're reaping the fruits of those errors now. Instead of going with what worked in Chicago and DC, he decided to reinvent the wheel and ignore U-Sector's wish to be in 115.

The only reason ECS in Seattle is the best is because they demanded a real supporter's section behind the net that gives them room for growth. The difference is their FO listened to their supporters and gave them what they needed to succeed. In our case, we had to deal with arrogance. Supporters understand supporter culture, not the suits.

Break down support in North America into three tiers.

Tier 1: Cream of the crop. Seattle, Portland, and when they're on point Chicago. (and IMO when they move into Saputo, UM02. They made us look really bad on both occasions we visited this year, great group vocally. Need to step up their visuals though)
Tier 2: Up and coming, constantly improving. KC, RSL, San Jose, Philly, LA, NYRB, Columbus, Colorado.
Tier 3: Fragmented, unorganized, stagnating. Toronto, Dallas, Vancouver, New England, Chivas, DC (no offense to District Ultras, fantastic group, but this is about DC as a whole, in a SSS with all four groups in one section and DU leading, easily Tier 1.).

Tier 1 and 2 put their groups behind the net where they belong, they almost all follow the guidelines laid out by the Fire and Section 8. Things like listening to supporters on supporter issues (gasp), independence of groups, general admission, and some get rid of seats all together for safe standing areas.

The supporter groups are the beating heart of any stadium. Our heart beat is irregular at best, flatline on most days.

[TFCRegina]

The blame for the drop in supporter quality is on Paul Beirne. He got everything wrong on day one and we're reaping the fruits of those errors now. Instead of going with what worked in Chicago and DC, he decided to reinvent the wheel and ignore U-Sector's wish to be in 115.

The only reason ECS in Seattle is the best is because they demanded a real supporter's section behind the net that gives them room for growth. The difference is their FO listened to their supporters and gave them what they needed to succeed. In our case, we had to deal with arrogance. Supporters understand supporter culture, not the suits.

Break down support in North America into three tiers.

Tier 1: Cream of the crop. Seattle, Portland, and when they're on point Chicago. (and IMO when they move into Saputo, UM02. They made us look really bad on both occasions we visited this year, great group vocally. Need to step up their visuals though)
Tier 2: Up and coming, constantly improving. KC, RSL, San Jose, Philly, LA, NYRB, Columbus, Colorado.
Tier 3: Fragmented, unorganized, stagnating. Toronto, Dallas, Vancouver, New England, Chivas, DC (no offense to District Ultras, fantastic group, but this is about DC as a whole, in a SSS with all four groups in one section and DU leading, easily Tier 1.).

Tier 1 and 2 put their groups behind the net where they belong, they almost all follow the guidelines laid out by the Fire and Section 8. Things like listening to supporters on supporter issues (gasp), independence of groups, general admission, and some get rid of seats all together for safe standing areas.

The supporter groups are the beating heart of any stadium. Our heart beat is irregular at best, flatline on most days.

Have you missed the last 6 years?

The supporters sections locations are what are causing our failure. That is exactly it.

I'm glad that we have someone to cut through the BS of team management and player talk.

It's all about where the U-Sector is sitting.

I have a feeling you'll be getting a call from Tommy A soon to help him consult on how to fix TFC.

[RedDevils]

Have you missed the last 6 years?

The supporters sections locations are what are causing our failure. That is exactly it.

I'm glad that we have someone to cut through the BS of team management and player talk.

It's all about where the U-Sector is sitting.

I have a feeling you'll be getting a call from Tommy A soon to help him consult on how to fix TFC.

I am not faulting the supporters at all. Of course our current slump is due to on the pitch. I'm talking about the future of support. That's what this thread is about. Don't put words in my mouth. This is about stagnating support in Toronto. And you have to be completely blind to say that Toronto groups are improving.

The last 6 years were good despite Paul Beirne's blunders. And really, the last 6 years weren't that good. Portland and Seattle in 2 years did what we could never do in 10 years. We went from top to mediocre, because the current set up is not sustainable.

The solutions to this club aren't locked in some pandora's box. Just take a look around the league. Everyone else is getting it right when it comes to supporters section location and ticketing. We didn't. We had Chicago Fire's successful model to emulate. We had U-Sector members with real experience in the stands calling for supporters to be behind the net. Paul Beirne ignored this so that the groups can show up on the cameras when it pans towards the south stand. Now we have 100-150 voices that are willing to sing for 90 minutes and don't mind their view being blocked by a flag spread out amongst two sections separated by a bunch of people who don't want to participate. If we built it right and put those 100-150 in one section in the middle, there would have been room for growth outwards. Now, not so much.

[Cashcleaner]

I'm sorry Red, but many of the issues you're bringing up are not the fault of the FO at all.

For example, the club came to us and asked us how many seats and what section they should put aside for our group. We said fifty in 112 should do it, and as it turns out we underestimated things.

And actually, when some new seats in 112 opened up a few years back, RPBers were given first crack at them.

The club has actually done quite a bit to accomodate us, and I think a lot of the hositlity toward Paul B is unwarranted.

[RedDevils]

I'm sorry Red, but many of the issues you're bringing up are not the fault of the FO at all.

For example, the club came to us and asked us how many seats and what section they should put aside for our group. We said fifty in 112 should do it, and as it turns out we underestimated things.

And actually, when some new seats in 112 opened up a few years back, RPBers were given first crack at them.

The club has actually done quite a bit to accomodate us, and I think a lot of the hositlity toward Paul B is unwarranted.

I have issue with how this was handled in the early days, and how RPB execs went on U-Sector's board and hassled them to move into 113, but I don't doubt for a second that Paul Beirne pressured them to do that.

What Beirne should have done was listen to U-Sector and make 115 the supporters section. Follow Chicago and make it general admission. Cap the sale at a certain point. Over the years you would have seen people flow in and out based on preference. Today we would at the very least have a solid section behind the net united and loud. Best case scenario, the section would spilled over into 114 and 116.

Again, not blaming the SGs, the bulk of the blame lies on Beirne. He literally went on the U-Sector board and posted that if they don't cooperate he would have to force them into 113. What kind of arrogance and close mindedness is that?

And then I go back to my original point. Why did Portland and Seattle get it right? Why are Philly, KC, RSL growing their support? Because they listened to their supporters and emulated what the original successful supporters did. Why did we fail? We let a suit dictate how supporter groups were structured. And now we're in the position we're in. Zero room for growth, horribly shaped sections for organization, tifo, and acoustics, and slowly but surely we're getting worse.

Section 8 had a slump when we came into the league. Why were they able to spring back up in the next few seasons? Because they had a solid foundation they could build upon if things went bad.

This needs to be made abundantly clear before the new owners purchase this club. Beirne is not a friend of the supporters. Quite the opposite.

[Cashcleaner]

I have issue with how this was handled in the early days, and how RPB execs went on U-Sector's board and hassled them to move into 113, but I don't doubt for a second that Paul Beirne pressured them to do that.

Huh? This is the first I've ever heard of this. I know of a few old board posters who joined up to their respective clubs based on where they were sitting, but as a former exec myself who organized our first ever meetings and met with the club to sort our our seating needs, I have never seen or heard of this.


What Beirne should have done was listen to U-Sector and make 115 the supporters section. Follow Chicago and make it general admission. Cap the sale at a certain point. Over the years you would have seen people flow in and out based on preference. Today we would at the very least have a solid section behind the net united and loud. Best case scenario, the section would spilled over into 114 and 116.

Again, not blaming the SGs, the bulk of the blame lies on Beirne. He literally went on the U-Sector board and posted that if they don't cooperate he would have to force them into 113. What kind of arrogance and close mindedness is that?

I'm not familiar with U-Sector's dealings with Beirne so I can't really comment except to say that all the U-Sector guys I talked to were happy with sitting in 113 at the time. But regardless of that, what you're saying would have left us off with even less seats for supporters. Right now RPBers makes up about half of 112 and half of 111 with a few pockets elsewhere. I would imagine U-Sector is the same with 113 and 114.


And then I go back to my original point. Why did Portland and Seattle get it right? Why are Philly, KC, RSL growing their support? Because they listened to their supporters and emulated what the original successful supporters did. Why did we fail? We let a suit dictate how supporter groups were structured. And now we're in the position we're in. Zero room for growth, horribly shaped sections for organization, tifo, and acoustics, and slowly but surely we're getting worse.

Section 8 had a slump when we came into the league. Why were they able to spring back up in the next few seasons? Because they had a solid foundation they could build upon if things went bad.

This needs to be made abundantly clear before the new owners purchase this club. Beirne is not a friend of the supporters. Quite the opposite.

Again, if you've been involved in any SG meetings with Paul and others at the club, you'd notice a lot of give-and-take. Don't get me wrong, the club has fucked up the relationship with the supporters more than a few times - and we've let them know about it. I totally agree that Paul isn't a friend of the supporters - but it's not really his job to be. He has tens of thousands of other fans that require his attention as well, and most of them don't really want anything to do with RPB or U-Sector.

[Roogsy]

Huh? This is the first I've ever heard of this. I know of a few old board posters who joined up to their respective clubs based on where they were sitting, but as a former exec myself who organized our first ever meetings and met with the club to sort our our seating needs, I have never seen or heard of this.



I'm not familiar with U-Sector's dealings with Beirne so I can't really comment except to say that all the U-Sector guys I talked to were happy with sitting in 113 at the time. But regardless of that, what you're saying would have left us off with even less seats for supporters. Right now RPBers makes up about half of 112 and half of 111 with a few pockets elsewhere. I would imagine U-Sector is the same with 113 and 114.



Again, if you've been involved in any SG meetings with Paul and others at the club, you'd notice a lot of give-and-take. Don't get me wrong, the club has fucked up the relationship with the supporters more than a few times - and we've let them know about it. I totally agree that Paul isn't a friend of the supporters - but it's not really his job to be. He has tens of thousands of other fans that require his attention as well, and most of them don't really want anything to do with RPB or U-Sector.


Cash has this spot on.

[Chris Wren]

The support should be suffering, we have been a horrible. Unless you're some emotionless robot it makes perfect sense that the singing is lacking intensity. It has got to where some feel embarrassed to be singing songs about our glory when we are so bad. On another note, I said this already, but I am positive the drummer was helping to keep the crowd subdued on Saturday. He stood there drumming with a 10% effort most of the game. A monotonous, droning, disinterested, ever changing beat. You can put that in 115 or anywhere else and it will still sound like crap. Some serious analysis needs to be done when it comes to who is drumming and when they are doing it and for what purpose. Doing a bad job doesn't help anything, and it shouldn't be exempt from criticism simply because he is trying or is a fellow supporter.

[brad]

This thread reminds me of why winning now is as critical to the future of this club as the potential of the academy (if not more important). The support and attendance is dying, and if the academy starts to churn out above average MLS caliber players in 5+ years (and that is a big if) there is going to be nobody left to watch them.

[kodiakTFC]

Its funny because on Saturday I looked around the stadium and said to those in attendance with me, "I'm surprised we get this many people still." We're 0-8 and have never had a winning team, the fact we still get a steady average of 18-20,000 per game is astounding. Sure the stadium is pretty quiet but whats there to cheer about? If we won some games I'm sure the sound would pick right back up because the atmosphere just a couple months ago against LAG and Santos was fantastic.

[TorontoGooner]

Just out of interest, what was the reasoning behind choosing the South East corner as the RPBs and U-Sector supporters sections? The reason I ask is that it always seemed a little odd that the part of the ground was chosen where its split up between that big void in the corner. Straight behind the goal would've been amazing.

I think its impressive that so many people still go. There's next to no atmosphere at the northern end of the ground, but still, the turn out is there.

Beside all this, the only way we'll get consistent full houses is if the club starts winning and ticket prices are more reasonable.

[ginkster88]

Very empty stadium at 80 mins on Saturday.

Still, it was quite full at mid first and second half.

Say what you will about the "casuals", they keep coming out win or lose.

[brad]

Its funny because on Saturday I looked around the stadium and said to those in attendance with me, "I'm surprised we get this many people still." We're 0-8 and have never had a winning team, the fact we still get a steady average of 18-20,000 per game is astounding. Sure the stadium is pretty quiet but whats there to cheer about? If we won some games I'm sure the sound would pick right back up because the atmosphere just a couple months ago against LAG and Santos was fantastic.

But, if the season continues as it is, you have to wonder how many STH's are going to let their tickets go. Apathy is growing, and STH are no longer a good deal when the market is flooded with sub-face tickets.

[Roogsy]

This thread reminds me of why winning now is as critical to the future of this club as the potential of the academy (if not more important). The support and attendance is dying, and if the academy starts to churn out above average MLS caliber players in 5+ years (and that is a big if) there is going to be nobody left to watch them.


But, if the season continues as it is, you have to wonder how many STH's are going to let their tickets go. Apathy is growing, and STH are no longer a good deal when the market is flooded with sub-face tickets.


You've got it bang on.

I was listening to scalpers talk before the game (and say what you want about them, at least they are a good indication of actual "demand" unlike the propaganda we get from TFC) and they were bemoaning how TFC tickets were impossible to offload. I personally am finding it hard to offload the tickets that I have and they're in supporters sections!

Long-term dreams are nice but if you don't take care of the short-term, you're never going to live to see your long-term goals realized.

People have bought into the long-term dream so much that they have been foolishly willing to sacrifice the short-term. TFC fans are our own worst enemies.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Just out of interest, what was the reasoning behind choosing the South East corner as the RPBs and U-Sector supporters sections? The reason I ask is that it always seemed a little odd that the part of the ground was chosen where its split up between that big void in the corner. Straight behind the goal would've been amazing.

I think its impressive that so many people still go. There's next to no atmosphere at the northern end of the ground, but still, the turn out is there.

Beside all this, the only way we'll get consistent full houses is if the club starts winning and ticket prices are more reasonable.

112 is a cozy little corner to fill. Later it spilled into 111.

[Super]

Its funny because on Saturday I looked around the stadium and said to those in attendance with me, "I'm surprised we get this many people still." We're 0-8 and have never had a winning team, the fact we still get a steady average of 18-20,000 per game is astounding. Sure the stadium is pretty quiet but whats there to cheer about? If we won some games I'm sure the sound would pick right back up because the atmosphere just a couple months ago against LAG and Santos was fantastic.

Reason: the weather was nice. Add rain and you can remove about half the crowd. The weather pretty much dictates attendance every game. We've played important games with thousands of empty seats (due to poor weather) and meaningless games close to selling out.

I wish TFC FO would build that damn roof already so we can permanently add a few thousand people to each game.

[Nomad]

Cash has this spot on.

I disagree with that assessment. He's actually a little wrong.

112 isn't half RPB anymore and i don't think U-Sector ever had half of 113 or 114. RPB may have sold themselves short on 112 and 50 tickets ( who knew) but the original idea from a supporters perspective was for 115 and that was nixed in favour of TV time.

TFC succeeded despite itself. But as the years go on those initial mistakes become more apparent. The FO has been consulted about this on numerous occasions over the years and while paying us lip service and token gestures have arrogantly chosen to ignore the obvious.

The King is dead.....long live the King.

[dupont]

Its funny because on Saturday I looked around the stadium and said to those in attendance with me, "I'm surprised we get this many people still."

That is exactly what I was thinking. I couldn't believe so many people still showed up considering our record.

[Davenport]

There are 10k fans there max to each game. That's every other seat filled and that's all there is at the moment
The attendance MLSE announces is tickets sold, not bums on seats.

I'd be very surprised if the ground was ever full again.
All the promises and lies from this joke of an organisation has killed it for many real fans, not just part-timers.

[Dave67]

Its funny because on Saturday I looked around the stadium and said to those in attendance with me, "I'm surprised we get this many people still." We're 0-8 and have never had a winning team, the fact we still get a steady average of 18-20,000 per game is astounding. Sure the stadium is pretty quiet but whats there to cheer about? If we won some games I'm sure the sound would pick right back up because the atmosphere just a couple months ago against LAG and Santos was fantastic.

I'm also surprised that many people still showed up. The fan base is still there and hopefully some day new blood and fresh ideas in the front office will lead to full stands again. As an ex season ticket holder who knows a few other ex season ticket holders, we all still follow the team, we watch every game and we are keen to get back in the stands.

This current lot has to go. Paul and Tom need a swift kick out the door. They were gift wrapped a full stadium with Beckham's signing and the party atmosphere of the South end. You can argue all you like that the party atmosphere was not 'real' support but it did a hell of a job of building interest. I don't think Paul B has any real clue how to fill a stadium or sell tickets. This club is going ticket selling 101. I know Groupon is a normal way of selling tickets these days, but to me it says lazy management with no fresh ideas on what the fans and supporters are looking for.

I'm not going into any detail on what I think they should do. My days of trying to sell tickets and give this club a free opinion on what to do are long over.

[Sally Mack]

There are 10k fans there max to each game. That's every other seat filled and that's all there is at the moment
The attendance MLSE announces is tickets sold, not bums on seats.

I'd be very surprised if the ground was ever full again.
All the promises and lies from this joke of an organisation has killed it for many real fans, not just part-timers.
Numbers reported are tickets scanned.

[KRO]

We're 0-8 and have scored 2 goals in 5 home games and we are having a debate about why the excitement level is down?
One of these games we're not going to have the energy to sing the Dichio song.

[james]

a way to fix the support is next season for start actually lower prices (that is very unlikely, MLSE couldn't bare the thought of ever lowering prices), many fans have had enough and not willing to pay higher prices to watch a 0-8-0 team, another maybe renovate the stadium. Add some roofs (many fans don't show up because the weather is raining and windy) and finally make all south end seats general admission Tickets. Supporter sections like red patch boys and usector will take over 115 section, the supporters section will be better organised and the singing will hopefully spread to 114 and 116 exc. Fans will also start showing up before the game actually starts because fans will know the sooner you get into the stadium the better chance you have of standing where you would like to (front row for example)

[ManUtd4ever]

To put this issue in perspective, what would be the average paid attendance in any other MLS market that has existed for at least 6 years (with our deplorable record of futility during that time span) if a club started the season 0-8?

I would guess 5000-7000 at best.

The big wigs at MLSE should be counting their lucky stars, but this season will be the end of the line unless the situation is rectified in short order.

[canadian_bhoy]

The blame for the drop in supporter quality is on Paul Beirne. He got everything wrong on day one and we're reaping the fruits of those errors now. Instead of going with what worked in Chicago and DC, he decided to reinvent the wheel and ignore U-Sector's wish to be in 115.


This simply isn't the case.

Initially, both supporters groups were planning on sitting in 115 and the club was fine with that. It was only after the designs came out and everyone realized that there was (and is) a large accessibility seating section right in front of 115 that everyone decided to move.

RPB decided to make the move to 112 at that point - and I would argue that our presence there has been much more impactful over the years than it would have been in 115 (Think Blanco with the streamers). As for U-Sector - one thing you have to give them credit for is that they have never done something at the request of anyone else. They have always done what they wanted to do. Moving to 113 was a choice they made - not forced from us or the club.

As for TFC screwing it all up. I'd say that in year 1 it was the opposite. They had no clue what they were doing (they have admitted this) - and they leaned a lot on the groups to lead the way.

I'll tell you where TFC blew it.

Mid-way through year 2 and in year 3, the club decided that they had it figured out. They were Strategy Magazine's brand of the year, they were hot shit and they had "gotten it right". It was only when they started to believe their own hype that things fell apart. Why? Because they didn't need the groups anymore. Prices went up, Real Madrid tickets were $150, "rules" started popping up here and there. The groups were still considered important, but not as crucial as they once were.

When that happened, people who believed in the club, people who felt ownership over the club started to fade away. Some of the loudest and best supporters in 112 started to leave, they started to get pushed away by the club - and they never came back. And with the team sucking, and the club not caring about the groups as much as they once did - well, the groups started changing too. The groups became less about trying to get an entire stadium involved and more about a tight knit group of people who wanted to do their thing. That brought some more people in, but it also pushed some more people out.

And that's that.

[james]

This simply isn't the case.

Initially, both supporters groups were planning on sitting in 115 and the club was fine with that. It was only after the designs came out and everyone realized that there was (and is) a large accessibility seating section right in front of 115 that everyone decided to move.

RPB decided to make the move to 112 at that point - and I would argue that our presence there has been much more impactful over the years than it would have been in 115 (Think Blanco with the streamers). As for U-Sector - one thing you have to give them credit for is that they have never done something at the request of anyone else. They have always done what they wanted to do. Moving to 113 was a choice they made - not forced from us or the club.

As for TFC screwing it all up. I'd say that in year 1 it was the opposite. They had no clue what they were doing (they have admitted this) - and they leaned a lot on the groups to lead the way.

I'll tell you where TFC blew it.

Mid-way through year 2 and in year 3, the club decided that they had it figured out. They were Strategy Magazine's brand of the year, they were hot shit and they had "gotten it right". It was only when they started to believe their own hype that things fell apart. Why? Because they didn't need the groups anymore. Prices went up, Real Madrid tickets were $150, "rules" started popping up here and there. The groups were still considered important, but not as crucial as they once were.

When that happened, people who believed in the club, people who felt ownership over the club started to fade away. Some of the loudest and best supporters in 112 started to leave, they started to get pushed away by the club - and they never came back. And with the team sucking, and the club not caring about the groups as much as they once did - well, the groups started changing too. The groups became less about trying to get an entire stadium involved and more about a tight knit group of people who wanted to do their thing. That brought some more people in, but it also pushed some more people out.

And that's that.


well said, i could agree with most of that.

[lobo]

Numbers reported are tickets scanned.

that is very difficult to believe considering the facts recorded by eyes and cameras at each game

18,364 people walked through the gates at BMO on saturday? wanna buy some ocean front property in saskatchewan?

it's been a topic of much discussion here in past few years, generally accepted that it is tickets sold, not scanned on game day ... if i recall correctly, there was some verification of league policy to report tickets sold/donated

[Technorgasm]

Ask anybody out there, and they'll tell you that the foundation of a great FOOTBALL player starts with an understanding of some basic fundamentals. Running, stretching, physical conditioning. These are the things that prepare your body for the many challenges a FOOTBALL player faces.
I heard that bullshit thrown at me all my damn life.

You know what Kenny Powers says?
Fundamentals are the crutch for the talentless.

[BBBulldog]

I cannot believe that when they added that section behind other goal they didn't ask to move your groups into it and made it GA or even given you control of tickets. It baffles my mind, but most things about mls do.



Break down support in North America into three tiers.

Tier 1: Cream of the crop. Seattle, Portland, and when they're on point Chicago. (and IMO when they move into Saputo, UM02. They made us look really bad on both occasions we visited this year, great group vocally. Need to step up their visuals though)
Tier 2: Up and coming, constantly improving. KC, RSL, San Jose, Philly, LA, NYRB, Columbus, Colorado.
Tier 3: Fragmented, unorganized, stagnating. Toronto, Dallas, Vancouver, New England, Chivas, DC (no offense to District Ultras, fantastic group, but this is about DC as a whole, in a SSS with all four groups in one section and DU leading, easily Tier 1.).


0 problem with that, if we could have repaired DC downhill spiral without separating from Barra we would have. Instead we had to start from nothing with 9 people, no section, no flags, no money and rebuild it all back up in environment that already has 3 groups, at that time very hostile FO (to us, not others) and worst team in MLS. So I guess we should be proof that it's possible, tho it will take a good while longer to get up in numbers :) All 4 behind goal would probably be a disaster lol

[C.Ronaldo]

amen to this

"The groups became less about trying to get an entire stadium involved and more about a tight knit group of people who wanted to do their thing. That brought some more people in, but it also pushed some more people out. "

my entire section has lost its original fan base

[Phil]

Numbers reported are tickets scanned.

Call me crazy, but I am pretty sure that policy has changed.

[RedRum]

In response to BBB, yes it is a travesty that the SG's didn't all move to the North Stand. Bad enough that things were done wrong from the get go, but to have had a second chance at fixing the problem but instead just continuing on with the status quo - when it has been apparent for quite some time that TFC support is dying - it's absolutely mind boggling.

I guess that's what happens when your ego is more important than bettering support of the team (my opinion).

Well done to DU by the way. You are proof that a strong will in the face of adversity can persevere.

[RedDevils]

http://i.imgur.com/yOkSh.png
http://i.imgur.com/PC2zH.png
http://i.imgur.com/cdbkY.png
http://i.imgur.com/6qQHs.png
http://i.imgur.com/50592.png

http://z15.invisionfree.com/U_Sector/index.php?showtopic=576

http://z15.invisionfree.com/U_Sector/index.php?showtopic=588&st=15

http://z15.invisionfree.com/U_Sector/index.php?showtopic=515

I was trying to be nice and blame PB. If you guys want to take the flack for making the mistake of chosing the corner, I'm sure PB wouldn't mind. I still blame him for not showing any flexibility and not understanding the culture.

The man didn't bother checking with DC, Chicago, and NYRB, who were already making massive banners and flags, and initially went in with the idea that all banners were banned. This is his understanding of supporters culture.

All I know is Toronto support is going downhill fast while everyone else is improving. I attribute that to PB's arrogance and ignorance. I doubt the FO in Portland or Seattle were born and raised in a terrace, but they had the smarts to listen to their supporters and make sure they had what they needed to succeed.

And 115 is still perfect. There really doesn't need to be an accessibility area there, a supporters section isn't the place for that. It would be great to have a capo stand, space for big flags, and drums.

[RedRum]

http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/toronto/files/tfc_Beirne.jpg


"We keep screwing up, and you keep bringing your voices"

LOL

[Roogsy]

I have no problems with where the supporters groups chose to be positioned. In my opinion, it's a perfect location. And I think many members in both groups feel the same. I don't see what the debate way back in Year 1 over where to get tickets has to do with the current mess. Nowhere do I see Paul B determining on behalf of the supporters where to sit, although he does make it known his preference. In the end, everyone got seats where they personally selected, not where they were told.

[RedRum]

http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/toronto/files/tfc_Beirne.jpg

"We will be happy to sell you signage on the east wall. Hanging banners ain't gonna happen. Even hanging banners on the south wall will be a tough sell".

ROFLCOPTERS aplenty.

[Parkdale]

And 115 is still perfect. There really doesn't need to be an accessibility area there, a supporters section isn't the place for that. It would be great to have a capo stand, space for big flags, and drums.


no... it's far from perfect. There's a HUGE gap between the field and the first row of seats.

and beleive me... those screen caps you posted were from the middle of the discussion - USector sat where they wanted to sit, and no pushing from anyone would change that. You can see that THEY changed their minds and decided to move into 113 insteal of 115. You framing that whole argument around a few posts, when in reality the discussion went on for most of the off season leading up to the initial ticket purchase.

[Parkdale]

I was trying to be nice and blame PB. If you guys want to take the flack for making the mistake of chosing the corner, I'm sure PB wouldn't mind. I still blame him for not showing any flexibility and not understanding the culture.
.


taking 112 was a mistake?

http://i.thestar.com/images/68/9f/dd96bac245478bcca17806f7b6fc.jpg


that statement can only be responded to with a Designated Player caliber facepalm.

[RedDevils]

I have no problems with where the supporters groups chose to be positioned. In my opinion, it's a perfect location.

Really, dude? The perfect location? Bit much, considering behind the net is the standard home of supporters around the MLS (forget the world, people get hurt when you bring up Europe).

Supporters shouldn't take the blame for clear mistakes from PB. The reason we're equal or worse than Columbus, FC Dallas, and Vancouver supporters (and the Quiet Squat in LA) is because they sit in the corners like us where it's hard to really do anything visually and hard to grow in numbers. It's not rocket science. Chicago had the template ready for us when we came into the league, Beirne chose to completely ignore it.

[spe18]

For what it's worth, here's what's going on in Houston with their new stadium opening soon:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/05/07/fans-organize-dynamo-prepare-stadium-opening

[RedDevils]

taking 112 was a mistake?


Instead of posting silly pictures show me pictures of groups pulling off a good tifo in a corner like 112, something of the calibre of what Seattle and Portland does. I'm talking cards, flags coordination, not just simple banners.

I think SGs should be concerned with being the loudest and having the best tifo, not how far they are from the pitch (?!?!?!?). Not sure how my distance from the pitch affects the quality of the voices. Being in the middle, however, as opposed to the corner means chants spread in both direction, not hampered by a huge gap. Distance from the pitch won't effect the TIFOs.

[Parkdale]

Instead of posting silly pictures show me pictures of groups pulling off a good tifo in a corner like 112, something of the calibre of what Seattle and Portland does. I'm talking cards, flags coordination, not just simple banners.

I can't believe that after all these years, someone is debating that being in 112 and 113 is the reason why our displays aren't as coordinated as the ones in Seattle.

here's news for you - if we had EVER had a winning streak of note, or had a serious playoff run, the entire south stands could have been jumping.

You're caught up in a chicken-egg argument - If the team was doing well then support would be better - full stop.

some somehow the people in 112 and 113 manage to pull of things like this, despite being in the corner (because you like photos)

http://torontofc.theoffside.com/files/2009/10/Dichio-Thank-You-Cropped-2.jpg

[RedDevils]

Meh. One display, that's overshadowed by everything Seattle and Portland have done since they entered the league.

Keep putting your head in the ground.

And results are a huge reason for the lack of enthusiasm. My point is that if we had a good section behind the net, we could have been much better. Deny that all you want but numbers don't lie. FC Dallas, Columbus, and Toronto FC. Our peers, unorganized, no color, stuck in a corner.

I'd rather be competing with Seattle, Portland, Chicago, but that's just me, I think support makes up half of a football club. We will never be able to compete with them with the way supporters are set up. I'm saying that's mostly Paul Beirne's fault for having no vision. If you want to deny that and say the reason we'll never be in the top echelon of supporters in North America again is because you made the error and not the FO, that's on you. I can't blame the supporters here.

Fire Paul Beirne.

EDIT: Scratch the part of PB having no vision, he didn't need vision, he had Chicago right there for him to emulate. He had people in U-Sector telling him the right way to do things was to basically have a similar set up to Section 8. Ignored all of that.

So yeah, fire Paul Beirne.

[Dave67]

http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/toronto/files/tfc_Beirne.jpg



"Simple economics here folks, supply and demand."

Fire Paul Beirne, short sighted, arrogant, lack of vision.

[Torontotonto]

Just give all supporters groups the North Stands.
All For One !

[Don Julio]

I can confirm that the 0-8 start is due to not enough supporters behind directly behind the net. You can't expect players not to notice that the supporters are sitting 2 sections over, and the lack of acoustical symmetry is playing havoc with our back line. Paul Beirne out!

[RedDevils]

I can confirm that the 0-8 start is due to not enough supporters behind directly behind the net. You can't expect players not to notice that the supporters are sitting 2 sections over, and the lack of acoustical symmetry is playing havoc with our back line. Paul Beirne out!

Roogsy needs to lecture you about attacking those straw men.

This thread is about the excitement level in the stadium. That's Paul Beirne's domain. He should be fired for his initial mistakes with the SGs (and Liverpool, Real Madrid, ticket prices, etc.)

The results on the pitch have a huge effect on the support, but a strong, unified section behind the net will be able to weather any kind of storm and put in a strong showing game in, game out for 90 minutes. That's an SG's role, and it's hard to do when the FO just doesn't get it.

[kodiakTFC]

But, if the season continues as it is, you have to wonder how many STH's are going to let their tickets go. Apathy is growing, and STH are no longer a good deal when the market is flooded with sub-face tickets.

Oh I don't doubt that Brad. Just stating I'm impressed it isn't worse than it is now. To be honest, I think MLSE is missing out on a real hot ticket if this team was a winner.

[rocker]

that is very difficult to believe considering the facts recorded by eyes and cameras at each game

18,364 people walked through the gates at BMO on saturday? wanna buy some ocean front property in saskatchewan?

it's been a topic of much discussion here in past few years, generally accepted that it is tickets sold, not scanned on game day ... if i recall correctly, there was some verification of league policy to report tickets sold/donated

It looked like 18000 to me.

Remember that the stadium seats about 22000 with the north expansion stand. If they report about 18000, that means they are admitting that 4000 seats went empty. That's a lot of seats. It's rarely in non-Wednesday night league games that they've ever reported that low a number.

I know people *WISH* the number was lower, so it would reflect badly on MLSE. But the attendance was solid.

check out this photo the Star took:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/1173967--spot-yourself-at-the-toronto-fc-game

I know it doesn't have the West stand, but it doesn't look that bad (and notice the time, just after the second half started, when many people are still lingering in the concourses).

I saw a lot of photos on Twitter during the game and even the West stand was pretty full... The thing is, most people see the start of the game on TV, when people are always late, or near the end of the match, when people run to catch the trains or get out of the parking lot.

BMO seats 7000 in the west stand and 3000 in the south. If you think the attendance was really something less, then you're talking about 14000? 15000? That's around the equivalent of the whole East Stand not attending. I didn't see that many holes in the stands.

18000 seems about right, and would be one of the worst attendances ever for an MLS league game on a Saturday, but still strong considering how shitty this team has been and what the tickets cost.

If this was Columbus they'd be getting 6000-8000... which Columbus actually were getting in some games a few years ago...

[mclaren]

This simply isn't the case.

Initially, both supporters groups were planning on sitting in 115 and the club was fine with that. It was only after the designs came out and everyone realized that there was (and is) a large accessibility seating section right in front of 115 that everyone decided to move.

RPB decided to make the move to 112 at that point - and I would argue that our presence there has been much more impactful over the years than it would have been in 115 (Think Blanco with the streamers). As for U-Sector - one thing you have to give them credit for is that they have never done something at the request of anyone else. They have always done what they wanted to do. Moving to 113 was a choice they made - not forced from us or the club.

As for TFC screwing it all up. I'd say that in year 1 it was the opposite. They had no clue what they were doing (they have admitted this) - and they leaned a lot on the groups to lead the way.

I'll tell you where TFC blew it.

Mid-way through year 2 and in year 3, the club decided that they had it figured out. They were Strategy Magazine's brand of the year, they were hot shit and they had "gotten it right". It was only when they started to believe their own hype that things fell apart. Why? Because they didn't need the groups anymore. Prices went up, Real Madrid tickets were $150, "rules" started popping up here and there. The groups were still considered important, but not as crucial as they once were.

When that happened, people who believed in the club, people who felt ownership over the club started to fade away. Some of the loudest and best supporters in 112 started to leave, they started to get pushed away by the club - and they never came back. And with the team sucking, and the club not caring about the groups as much as they once did - well, the groups started changing too. The groups became less about trying to get an entire stadium involved and more about a tight knit group of people who wanted to do their thing. That brought some more people in, but it also pushed some more people out.

And that's that.

Excellent post - the bold part includes me and fellow season ticket holders who gave them up 2 seasons ago. I would still be there now even though the team sucks (hell, I'm a Sunderland fan), but the reason I'm not there is because of the way MLSE treated the fans. I know a lot of people like me. They only have themselves to blame for this.

[mclaren]

Really, dude? The perfect location? Bit much, considering behind the net is the standard home of supporters around the MLS (forget the world, people get hurt when you bring up Europe).

Supporters shouldn't take the blame for clear mistakes from PB. The reason we're equal or worse than Columbus, FC Dallas, and Vancouver supporters (and the Quiet Squat in LA) is because they sit in the corners like us where it's hard to really do anything visually and hard to grow in numbers. It's not rocket science. Chicago had the template ready for us when we came into the league, Beirne chose to completely ignore it.

Behind the net "in theory" makes the most sense. But have you actually looked at the accessibility area? It's massive. The designers screwed up big time - strange place for a big accessibility area.

[jabbronies]

This simply isn't the case.

Initially, both supporters groups were planning on sitting in 115 and the club was fine with that. It was only after the designs came out and everyone realized that there was (and is) a large accessibility seating section right in front of 115 that everyone decided to move.

RPB decided to make the move to 112 at that point - and I would argue that our presence there has been much more impactful over the years than it would have been in 115 (Think Blanco with the streamers). As for U-Sector - one thing you have to give them credit for is that they have never done something at the request of anyone else. They have always done what they wanted to do. Moving to 113 was a choice they made - not forced from us or the club.

As for TFC screwing it all up. I'd say that in year 1 it was the opposite. They had no clue what they were doing (they have admitted this) - and they leaned a lot on the groups to lead the way.

I'll tell you where TFC blew it.

Mid-way through year 2 and in year 3, the club decided that they had it figured out. They were Strategy Magazine's brand of the year, they were hot shit and they had "gotten it right". It was only when they started to believe their own hype that things fell apart. Why? Because they didn't need the groups anymore. Prices went up, Real Madrid tickets were $150, "rules" started popping up here and there. The groups were still considered important, but not as crucial as they once were.

When that happened, people who believed in the club, people who felt ownership over the club started to fade away. Some of the loudest and best supporters in 112 started to leave, they started to get pushed away by the club - and they never came back. And with the team sucking, and the club not caring about the groups as much as they once did - well, the groups started changing too. The groups became less about trying to get an entire stadium involved and more about a tight knit group of people who wanted to do their thing. That brought some more people in, but it also pushed some more people out.

And that's that.

There it is.

[glaze]

Fans will also start showing up before the game actually starts because fans will know the sooner you get into the stadium the better chance you have of standing where you would like to (front row for example)

Just to clarify, 113 is treated like GA by the U-sector? I bought a bunch of games off a friend, and there's always been people standing in the alloted seats. I have no problem with that, as long as I find a spot to stand nearby. But was just wondering if that was how the group handled the seats in that section. I agree, if I want a prime spot, I should show up early and claim it, but on the same hand, I don't want an usher coming over to kick me out of wherever it is I end up.

[Cashcleaner]

Roogsy needs to lecture you about attacking those straw men.

This thread is about the excitement level in the stadium. That's Paul Beirne's domain. He should be fired for his initial mistakes with the SGs (and Liverpool, Real Madrid, ticket prices, etc.)

The results on the pitch have a huge effect on the support, but a strong, unified section behind the net will be able to weather any kind of storm and put in a strong showing game in, game out for 90 minutes. That's an SG's role, and it's hard to do when the FO just doesn't get it.

I'm just not really getting what you're argument is based on, though. RPB wanted 112 and we got it. U-Sector wanted 113 and they got it. In the end, both groups ended up going to where their members wanted. If anything, that's two accommodations Paul did for us. And he would end up doing more down the line.

You're absolutely right in that he/the club dropped the ball on friendlies, coming up with new (and often stupid) rules and regulations, and pricing. He deserves much criticism for his hand in those concerns and you're actually changing my mind by bringing them up. It's just that where the SGs ended up sitting is really a non-issue here. Of all the arguments you can put forward, this one is the weakest. There are plenty of other reasons you'd want to point out first.

[Oblio2]

Im so confused with this thread.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSVhnIWDaqLsxYyJCIZYKctq6PqadkwR kmOnjHQHfgIwV0CaLwZlT3uHCV8

[Fort York Redcoat]

^
1. Pick something that personally insults you about the club
2. Make it the key reason excitement level is down
3. Success!!!

[Oblio2]

^
1. Pick something that personally insults you about the club
2. Make it the key reason excitement level is down
3. Success!!!



Got it.
I do hate the fact that the difference from Season 1 to now is that the lineups for the washrooms are awful...it was so civilized in S1...now, its a Goddamn free-for-all.
You lineup and then every other muppet pushes in so that I almost piss my pants...
Its like Anarchy and I hate it!

THIS is the reason excitetemnt and thus attendance is down.....
End/


http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6046/6333331433_03990a5fb3.jpg

[tfcleeds]

^I figured with the general drop in attendance figures, that would be less of an issue. ;)

[Parkdale]

^
1. Pick something that personally insults you about the club
2. Make it the key reason excitement level is down
3. Success!!!

In season one, there was a deli counter with smoked meat right near my seats. They closed up shop in year two, and then reopened down the way just recently. Clearly this is why our TIFOs can't compete with Seattle (who by the way, gets a huge amount of help from their owners)

[Roogsy]

I'm just not really getting what you're argument is based on, though. RPB wanted 112 and we got it. U-Sector wanted 113 and they got it. In the end, both groups ended up going to where their members wanted. If anything, that's two accommodations Paul did for us. And he would end up doing more down the line.

You're absolutely right in that he/the club dropped the ball on friendlies, coming up with new (and often stupid) rules and regulations, and pricing. He deserves much criticism for his hand in those concerns and you're actually changing my mind by bringing them up. It's just that where the SGs ended up sitting is really a non-issue here. Of all the arguments you can put forward, this one is the weakest. There are plenty of other reasons you'd want to point out first.

This...

[T-boy]

I'm just not really getting what you're argument is based on, though. RPB wanted 112 and we got it. U-Sector wanted 113 and they got it. In the end, both groups ended up going to where their members wanted. If anything, that's two accommodations Paul did for us. And he would end up doing more down the line.

You're absolutely right in that he/the club dropped the ball on friendlies, coming up with new (and often stupid) rules and regulations, and pricing. He deserves much criticism for his hand in those concerns and you're actually changing my mind by bringing them up. It's just that where the SGs ended up sitting is really a non-issue here. Of all the arguments you can put forward, this one is the weakest. There are plenty of other reasons you'd want to point out first.

The issue with the atmosphere is linked with the separation between the supporters groups also. I never understood why the RPB's and U-Sector couldn't just be one supporters group. Any supporters group has power in numbers, and the split into two groups has never helped TFC. It's about time the two SG's stopped being pig-headed and merged into one big, much more powerful organisation.

Imagine how much more power a SG with the people from RPB, U-S and NNE would have, over the smaller individual groups right now? I'm pretty sure MLSE would respect a SG with a mass of numbers behind it also.

If the SG's could have all agreed to be one big happy family to start with, TFC might just be better off right now. There is power in numbers, that's for sure.

[Suds]

The issue with the atmosphere is linked with the separation between the supporters groups also. I never understood why the RPB's and U-Sector couldn't just be one supporters group. Any supporters group has power in numbers, and the split into two groups has never helped TFC. It's about time the two SG's stopped being pig-headed and merged into one big, much more powerful organisation.

Imagine how much more power a SG with the people from RPB, U-S and NNE would have, over the smaller individual groups right now? I'm pretty sure MLSE would respect a SG with a mass of numbers behind it also.

If the SG's could have all agreed to be one big happy family to start with, TFC might just be better off right now. There is power in numbers, that's for sure.

What about Original 109, Tribal Rhythm, etc. etc. The minute any SG's merged a bunch of new ones would pop up because there would be a sub-set of members who would not be supportive of it. We would be back to square one. IMO, we would be better off to continue on the path of SG's working together on common goals.

The issue of atmosphere is hardly the fault of the SG's. Could we be better? Always. But we are not the root cause of the problems.

[tfcleeds]

The issue with the atmosphere is linked with the separation between the supporters groups also. I never understood why the RPB's and U-Sector couldn't just be one supporters group. Any supporters group has power in numbers, and the split into two groups has never helped TFC. It's about time the two SG's stopped being pig-headed and merged into one big, much more powerful organisation. Imagine how much more power a SG with the people from RPB, U-S and NNE would have, over the smaller individual groups right now? I'm pretty sure MLSE would respect a SG with a mass of numbers behind it also. If the SG's could have all agreed to be one big happy family to start with, TFC might just be better off right now. There is power in numbers, that's for sure.Don't think that's going to ever happen, and not that it has to. Lots of MLS teams have more than one supporters group. I can't see U-Sector ever agreeing to it - they've been around longer than we have, have their way of doing things, and I think are pretty content with the status quo. And NEE are obviously happy being located way over where they are. As long as greater emphasis is placed on being unified on game day, that's all that really matters.

[lobo]

It looked like 18000 to me.

Remember that the stadium seats about 22000 with the north expansion stand. If they report about 18000, that means they are admitting that 4000 seats went empty. That's a lot of seats. It's rarely in non-Wednesday night league games that they've ever reported that low a number.

I know people *WISH* the number was lower, so it would reflect badly on MLSE. But the attendance was solid.

you are saying 82% of seats had bums in them, so only 1 or 2 empty seats out of every 10 .... and you are saying people actually wish for low attendance.
so, it must have been an optical illusion (red seats, red fans) distorted by unconscious wishful thinking. gotcha. solid attendance, yep.

[T-boy]

Don't think that's going to ever happen, and not that it has to. Lots of MLS teams have more than one supporters group. I can't see U-Sector ever agreeing to it - they've been around longer than we have, have their way of doing things, and I think are pretty content with the status quo. And NEE are obviously happy being located way over where they are. As long as greater emphasis is placed on being unified on game day, that's all that really matters.

I agree that unfortunately its never going to happen.

But you have to agree that the SG's would be better off all under one banner and with power in numbers? Just imagine one SG representative going to the club and telling them that they have the support of 2,000 fans, rather than the current groups going individually and saying they have the support of 750 people. One large supporters group would gain much more respect from the club than the current individual groups.

[bigredoneNEE]

you are saying 82% of seats had bums in them, so only 1 or 2 empty seats out of every 10 .... and you are saying people actually wish for low attendance.
so, it must have been an optical illusion (red seats, red fans) distorted by unconscious wishful thinking. gotcha. solid attendance, yep.
Haha nicely put.

I honestly can't believe either that 82% or so of the tickets that had been sold for this match actually came into the ground. That seems crazy to me.

Just think of all the people you personally know that have season ticket's that didn't attend, or take a look at ticket threads with people struggling to offload tickets, or the hapless scalpers trying in vain to offload a mitt full of tickets near the GO Station.

I don't wish for low attendances, as I would love nothing more to get back to the day's when BMO was a packed and loud venue, but the actual number of people that aren't coming to games is symptomatic of the apathy that has set in with people over this club's continued failure. Although I don't wish for low attendances, if a drop in lost revenue due to fewer merchandise and concession sales on match days leads to the idiots in the FO addressing the problems this team has then it won't be entirely a bad thing.

[TFC Tifoso]

I agree that unfortunately its never going to happen.

But you have to agree that the SG's would be better off all under one banner and with power in numbers? Just imagine one SG representative going to the club and telling them that they have the support of 2,000 fans, rather than the current groups going individually and saying they have the support of 750 people. One large supporters group would gain much more respect from the club than the current individual groups.


1 group or 10 groups it doesn't matter......the problem in Toronto has been and will be for the forseeable future that all the groups never agree to what the right action is......some want to push FO to be better and others are content to wait and see or just come out to party....

these two types even exist WITHIN groups so having one wouldn't matter......

supporters as a whole (through their SG leaders) need to decide that enough is enough....how long that will take, who knows?......

[bigredoneNEE]

1 group or 10 groups it doesn't matter......the problem in Toronto has been and will be for the forseeable future that all the groups never agree to what the right action is......some want to push FO to be better and others are content to wait and see or just come out to party....

these two types even exist WITHIN groups so having one wouldn't matter......

supporters as a whole (through their SG leaders) need to decide that enough is enough....how long that will take, who knows?......
100% accurate. It would never work to have one super group for exactly the reasons you mention.

[Roogsy]

1 group or 10 groups it doesn't matter......the problem in Toronto has been and will be for the forseeable future that all the groups never agree to what the right action is......some want to push FO to be better and others are content to wait and see or just come out to party....

these two types even exist WITHIN groups so having one wouldn't matter......

supporters as a whole (through their SG leaders) need to decide that enough is enough....how long that will take, who knows?......


Yup...bang on.

[RedRum]

The twist this thread has taken talking about the lack of uniting support just re-enforces that reddevils' thinking is forward and proper.

Section 8 in Chicago is not a supporters group per se, it is an umbrella organization that presently represents 14 different groups:
http://www.section8chicago.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=290&Itemid=277

At the bottom of that list is another 5 inactive groups. What does this tell us? It says people will come and go. Such is life. As long as you are adding more than subtracting (which over time they have) you have sustained growth and a healthy future. They accomplished this despite average attendance declining over time. Like ours is.

They could not have accomplished this tucked into a corner of a stadium with designated seating and no physical room to grow. If SG's and the FO fail to adopt a new way of thinking, support in Toronto will soon be officially toast. We are already on life support.

[Fort York Redcoat]

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2010/237/3/b/Umbrella_Corp_BG_by_Quantumfart.png






Umbrella Group gives Life Support?

[Davenport]

Numbers reported are tickets scanned.
So Sally, please explain today's attendance vs Houston which was announced at 19k plus ?
The East Stand was 1/3 full.
Do fans get their tickets scanned then fook off to Ontario Place ?

[azorean19]

So Sally, please explain today's attendance vs Houston which was announced at 19k plus ?
The East Stand was 1/3 full.
Do fans get their tickets scanned then fook off to Ontario Place ?


Worst crowd I seen yet from the looks of it on tv. Especially considering this was a regular season weekend game, concerning...

[TFC07]

Worst crowd I seen yet from the looks of it on tv. Especially considering this was a regular season weekend game, concerning...

And TFC were on a 3 game winning streak. All the reasons for fans to come out, but they didn't since issues are deeper than just results (short term gain)

[khso11]

And TFC were on a 3 game winning streak. All the reasons for fans to come out, but they didn't since issues are deeper than just results (short term gain)

Not only we need long term results, but if the MLSE doesn't think of a special promotion for all the season ticket holders for next year, even long term results wouldn't work.

[TFC07]

Not only we need long term results, but if the MLSE doesn't think of a special promotion for all the season ticket holders for next year, even long term results wouldn't work.

Exactly. They got a major selling job to do in off-season if they want fans to come back for next season. I am sure new owners aren't going to be happy and probably start firing people if they care about TFC.

[narduch]

And TFC were on a 3 game winning streak. All the reasons for fans to come out, but they didn't since issues are deeper than just results (short term gain)

Also some damn nice weather as well.

[Whoop]

Way too hot today.

[khso11]

Also some damn nice weather as well.

I remember before we always hope for nice weather, but even though there's heavy rain, we still go out and support the team, but now, even the weathers 25 C sunny, the attendence is still mediocre.

[69Chevy396]

So Sally, please explain today's attendance vs Houston which was announced at 19k plus ?
The East Stand was 1/3 full.
Do fans get their tickets scanned then fook off to Ontario Place ?

Interesting given the demise of Ontario Place, it too was once a popular destination. I watched most of the RSL Vancouver game last night, it was vastly superior to anything I have seen at BMO in five years. Seems like the other clubs in MLS are improving exponentially, and the quality of the entertainment goes with it. Give the people what they want, not what bores them to death. The recent improvement of the team is welcome, but lets face it, they are still the worst club in the league, and have a long way to go before they are worthy of increasing fan support.

[reggie]

MLSE were handed a pot of gold 6 yrs ago and they turned it into a pot of crap.
i hope they enjoy the 12 k crowds next season.

[jazzy]

Exactly. They got a major selling job to do in off-season if they want fans to come back for next season. I am sure new owners aren't going to be happy and probably start firing people if they care about TFC.

you know I wish this was the case but I think the FO really doesn't give a f%^k......I mean they'll always get what 12,000 and up...and that'll be ok for them cause they are investing relatively nothing in the team comparatively speaking ,.I mean at worst they could sell the team for over $50 mill.....so even at a loss it's simply a write off .....as a sporting experience they don't give a shit.....it's all there in the proof of what we have as a minor team............please prove me wrong.....just finished watching Nesta's debut at montreal after returning from today's shit show.....for the rest of the year at that.......yup it'll take a destroyed team to rise from the ashes....to retain what was once to be....sigh,...that means we all leave the team.....great simply great,.....this is sad and hopefully not true but ....?????:(

[narduch]

MLSE were handed a pot of gold 6 yrs ago and they turned it into a pot of crap.
i hope they enjoy the 12 k crowds next season.

There hasn't been a single sell out at BMO Field this year. Not for the home opener and not even for NYRB and Henry.

If that doesn't set off alarm bells I don't know what else would.

It will be interesting to see how attendance is on Wednesday for the CCL game.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'll be interested to see who wants to sing with me Wed. I want the stands full all over but it doesn't change how much I look forward to Champions League.

Excitement Level: High

[69Chevy396]

I'll be interested to see who wants to sing with me Wed. I want the stands full all over but it doesn't change how much I look forward to Champions League.

Excitement Level: High

Another problem remains-the local media ignores all things soccer most of the time unless it is the euro or world cup. There is virtually nil coverage of mls limiting the exposure needed to increase fan interest. You have to build up interest in the league, to generate rivalries, etc, otherwise all you have to sell is a crap team mired in last place all the time.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Another problem remains-the local media ignores all things soccer most of the time unless it is the euro or world cup. There is virtually nil coverage of mls limiting the exposure needed to increase fan interest. You have to build up interest in the league, to generate rivalries, etc, otherwise all you have to sell is a crap team mired in last place all the time.

Doesn't really effect what I'm saying though. I don't sing for media coverage and it doesn't get me to games. I realize you are trying to assess Excitement level in a more general scale but that's not really my priority.

[ensco]

Another problem remains-the local media ignores all things soccer most of the time unless it is the euro or world cup. There is virtually nil coverage of mls limiting the exposure needed to increase fan interest. You have to build up interest in the league, to generate rivalries, etc, otherwise all you have to sell is a crap team mired in last place all the time.

I think you've got it backwards. The media is giving TFC (in CCL or MLS) more coverage than it deserves. Full time journos (Larson, Molinaro, Attfield etc) for a team that mostly draws less than poker on TV?

All the media want is ratings, or to sell papers. It is responding to the marketplace quite precisely.

[Whoop]

When the team does well and there is some excitement about the team - ie TFC vs Galaxy CCL match at the Dome - the media coverage is more than adequate.

Locally I find the team receives very good coverage from the likes of Kurtis Larson and the number of bloggers and/or reporters who publicize mainly online on websites like TSN and Sportsnet.

Nationally it's more of a struggle but really outside of the respective cities that have a MLS team, the rest of Canadians probably don't care about MLS but do follow other leagues from around the world. Someone from Halifax might have more of a connection to EPL than the Whitecaps (also it's a shorter flight to England than to Vancouver).

I think blaming media coverage is a red herring.

Support has been decimated by poor quality on the pitch, the battles with the FO, and internal supporter battles.

The next step is apathy... and that will really kill TFC and possibly bring the club to its knees.

[69Chevy396]

When the team does well and there is some excitement about the team - ie TFC vs Galaxy CCL match at the Dome - the media coverage is more than adequate.

Locally I find the team receives very good coverage from the likes of Kurtis Larson and the number of bloggers and/or reporters who publicize mainly online on websites like TSN and Sportsnet.

Nationally it's more of a struggle but really outside of the respective cities that have a MLS team, the rest of Canadians probably don't care about MLS but do follow other leagues from around the world. Someone from Halifax might have more of a connection to EPL than the Whitecaps (also it's a shorter flight to England than to Vancouver).

I think blaming media coverage is a red herring.

Support has been decimated by poor quality on the pitch, the battles with the FO, and internal supporter battles.

The next step is apathy... and that will really kill TFC and possibly bring the club to its knees.

In todays Star, not a single mention of MLS weekend games. Montreal, one of our "rivalries" beat the first place team, no mention
of that...how do you build interest in a team if there is no coverage of the league? What makes watching the horrible leafs endurable is that they play in the NHL where you can follow great hockey teams and players, and it makes winning and losing so much more interesting. For the average soccer fan in Toronto, who depends on a variety of sources to stay informed, the local media is a joke. When was the last time any of you turned on the 6 pm news on any of the major networks and saw a story on mls, coverage of scores, important signings...nothing, nil, never...just the odd mention of TFC when a guy gets hurt or a 10 second clip if they should win a game. I think more people still attend TFC games than they do CFL, but you would think the CFL was the most important prof league in the world based on CBC, TSN coverage etc.

[Shakes McQueen]

In todays Star, not a single mention of MLS weekend games. Montreal, one of our "rivalries" beat the first place team, no mention
of that...how do you build interest in a team if there is no coverage of the league? What makes watching the horrible leafs endurable is that they play in the NHL where you can follow great hockey teams and players, and it makes winning and losing so much more interesting. For the average soccer fan in Toronto, who depends on a variety of sources to stay informed, the local media is a joke. When was the last time any of you turned on the 6 pm news on any of the major networks and saw a story on mls, coverage of scores, important signings...nothing, nil, never...just the odd mention of TFC when a guy gets hurt or a 10 second clip if they should win a game. I think more people still attend TFC games than they do CFL, but you would think the CFL was the most important prof league in the world based on CBC, TSN coverage etc.

The CFL has higher attendance, and draws higher ratings. It also helps that TSN has exclusive ownership of the CFL broadcast rights, and hence an inherent reason to push the product.

I think the media coverage of Toronto FC is adequate, when you consider the relative importance of the league, and the relative futility of the team. There could be more time given to highlights from all of the games around the league every week, but that's a comparatively small quibble.

TFC have only themselves to blame for any gap in media coverage. Give the people of Toronto a well-run, competitive sports franchise to root for, and the sports media will follow the money. Give them a dysfunctional mess to become increasingly disillusioned with, and they won't.

- Scott

[TOBOR !]

Hmm... didn't MLSE originally plan for attendance numbers around 12K (maybe not that low) ?

Perhaps what they've been doing all along is driving to get that number, so as to be in line with their annual budget.

In which case, job well done.

[TO DEVILS]

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

That sentence describes the relationship between the supporters and the the TFC FO.
The trust that once existed between supporters and the existing TFC FO has been killed. Like any relationship you will ever have with anybody, once the trust is removed it is nearly impossible to maintain the relationship and be able to build on it and move forward, because any gesture or word said will be analysed and scrutinized and always believed to be lies and deceit.

Speaking as someone who has been around since season 1, and was one of the founding members of NEE, for me it would take more than victories or DP players to bring me back to BMO as a supporter. I have bought that and look where it got me.

I am not to point blame at who is at fault for why we are where we are, i find pointing of fingers is counter productive and gets people on the defensive. I also don't suffer from the TIT syndrome and don't need to make everyone feel less intellectual than me by pointing out the obvious.

But in my mind the only way support can be saved, if this is even possible, is if the people in the FO change. Only new faces, willing to put actions ahead of words, willing to form a partnership with supporters, and see us beyond cheerleaders and actual business partners can make things return to where they once were. The longer the status quo remains, the longer the sense of apathy will start to settle and the folks responsible for what support was in the early days will be driven away and far enough to ever want to return.

2 years ago during the first town hall i spoke to Tom and PB in front of all supporter groups and asked for a partnership. I asked for groups to be view as business partners, no different than Carlsberg or KIA. I spoke about the added value that supporters bring and brought to TFC, to the marketing appeal, to the need to forge written agreements with supporter groups that would ensure a "contract" between both parties would see the need that both sides would have to meet goals that would ensure both parties would get their cake and eat it too. This has happen in Chicago with Section 8, and more and more i see it as the future of supporters in NA. We are in a franchise league, there are no clubs here, but a business partnership between clubs and supporters would ease the feeling of a "fake" FC and give everyone something to really fight for. Not just words, but actual facts.

Tom said he would look into it, i guess he hired the same guy to look into this that he has looking for a central defender.

CB in one of his earlier posts was 100% correct by saying that many supporters have walked away, and many more will so. Sure one can always argue that everybody is replaceable. Sure you can replace the body, but can you replace the passion, devotion and love that this person had and brought to the game? I think not.

One of those first guys to leave was Blackandwhite...a guy like that can't be replaced. He was more than a supporter, he was more than a drummer, he was what support was all about in this city and with this team. Guys like that once they leave they will be hard pressed to return, because like Bush said fool me once you can't fool me again, and this my good friends is the crux of the matter.

[Phil]

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

That sentence describes the relationship between the supporters and the the TFC FO.
The trust that once existed between supporters and the existing TFC FO has been killed. Like any relationship you will ever have with anybody, once the trust is removed it is nearly impossible to maintain the relationship and be able to build on it and move forward, because any gesture or word said will be analysed and scrutinized and always believed to be lies and deceit.

Speaking as someone who has been around since season 1, and was one of the founding members of NEE, for me it would take more than victories or DP players to bring me back to BMO as a supporter. I have bought that and look where it got me.

I am not to point blame at who is at fault for why we are where we are, i find pointing of fingers is counter productive and gets people on the defensive. I also don't suffer from the TIT syndrome and don't need to make everyone feel less intellectual than me by pointing out the obvious.

But in my mind the only way support can be saved, if this is even possible, is if the people in the FO change. Only new faces, willing to put actions ahead of words, willing to form a partnership with supporters, and see us beyond cheerleaders and actual business partners can make things return to where they once were. The longer the status quo remains, the longer the sense of apathy will start to settle and the folks responsible for what support was in the early days will be driven away and far enough to ever want to return.

2 years ago during the first town hall i spoke to Tom and PB in front of all supporter groups and asked for a partnership. I asked for groups to be view as business partners, no different than Carlsberg or KIA. I spoke about the added value that supporters bring and brought to TFC, to the marketing appeal, to the need to forge written agreements with supporter groups that would ensure a "contract" between both parties would see the need that both sides would have to meet goals that would ensure both parties would get their cake and eat it too. This has happen in Chicago with Section 8, and more and more i see it as the future of supporters in NA. We are in a franchise league, there are no clubs here, but a business partnership between clubs and supporters would ease the feeling of a "fake" FC and give everyone something to really fight for. Not just words, but actual facts.

Tom said he would look into it, i guess he hired the same guy to look into this that he has looking for a central defender.

CB in one of his earlier posts was 100% correct by saying that many supporters have walked away, and many more will so. Sure one can always argue that everybody is replaceable. Sure you can replace the body, but can you replace the passion, devotion and love that this person had and brought to the game? I think not.

One of those first guys to leave was Blackandwhite...a guy like that can't be replaced. He was more than a supporter, he was more than a drummer, he was what support was all about in this city and with this team. Guys like that once they leave they will be hard pressed to return, because like Bush said fool me once you can't fool me again, and this my good friends is the crux of the matter.

I have to applaud you on all those points, including the crux!

There are so many examples of efforts put forward by all the groups and we get a serious lack of delivery or follow up on it, despite consistant follow up from the groups.

There is an upcoming meeting, I hope to see things change.

[cmonyoureds]

I have to applaud you on all those points, including the crux!

There are so many examples of efforts put forward by all the groups and we get a serious lack of delivery or follow up on it, despite consistant follow up from the groups.

There is an upcoming meeting, I hope to see things change.

I know I'm not a "member" so I know I might not be entitled to the info, but.....

Are you saying a meeting between all the groups with the boys at MLSE? Or just a supporter group meeting? 'Cause if it's a meeting with the F/O, I'd be real curious/interested if someone took "the minutes" and posted them.

Thanks,

[Davenport]

Sorry to be a pedant, but Bush got ridiculed for butchering the saying.

The correct version is:

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[Shakes McQueen]

Sorry to be a pedant, but Bush got ridiculed for butchering the saying.

The correct version is:

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

I assume he used Bush's botched version for humorous effect.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

I know I'm not a "member" so I know I might not be entitled to the info, but.....

Are you saying a meeting between all the groups with the boys at MLSE? Or just a supporter group meeting? 'Cause if it's a meeting with the F/O, I'd be real curious/interested if someone took "the minutes" and posted them.

Thanks,

The SGs have meetings with the TFC FO from time to time.

- Scott

[Davenport]

I assume he used Bush's botched version for humorous effect.

- Scott
in that case......whooooosh

[Whoop]

In todays Star, not a single mention of MLS weekend games. Montreal, one of our "rivalries" beat the first place team, no mention
of that...how do you build interest in a team if there is no coverage of the league? What makes watching the horrible leafs endurable is that they play in the NHL where you can follow great hockey teams and players, and it makes winning and losing so much more interesting. For the average soccer fan in Toronto, who depends on a variety of sources to stay informed, the local media is a joke. When was the last time any of you turned on the 6 pm news on any of the major networks and saw a story on mls, coverage of scores, important signings...nothing, nil, never...just the odd mention of TFC when a guy gets hurt or a 10 second clip if they should win a game. I think more people still attend TFC games than they do CFL, but you would think the CFL was the most important prof league in the world based on CBC, TSN coverage etc.

Locally, you don't get coverage of the Oakland A's beating the Tampa Bay Rays. You get a boxscore and that's it. Locally, the papers are paid to cover the local team.

Nationally I can see the complaint. But even then it's all a political game with rights holders and what not. The CFL brings in better numbers than MLS and TSN is a major partner with the CFL so of course they're going to drum it up.

Same with Sportsnet and Blue Jays baseball. They get great ratings. So they drum up the support.

The numbers are in the pudding. Ratings for MLS suck, even after several rights holders have tried to drum up support. Also doesn't help that matches are on GOL TV.

Ratings for World Cup and Euro are way, way better so that's why you see the discrepancy.

MLS is just above WNBA on the NA sports scene. You don't get WNBA highlights locally or nationally.

[Whoop]

Hmm... didn't MLSE originally plan for attendance numbers around 12K (maybe not that low) ?

Perhaps what they've been doing all along is driving to get that number, so as to be in line with their annual budget.

In which case, job well done.

More like...

J Peterman: "Elaine, congratulations on a job... done."

[Jack]

Sadly, I think Pedro has hit the nail on the head. I know that I have had my passion for TFC ebb to a dangerously low level. It took me longer than some, but I feel in the same boat as a lot of other very passionate supporters who have been heavily involved since the early days. To me, it seems like the trust, the good relationship, the positive feeling and the potential have all been squandered. I feel wrung out.

[SoccMan]

I agree the CFL does amazing TV numbers,however, here in Toronto, the TV ratings for the Argos are good but the in game attendance not so good. I agree the Argos due warrant more media coverage based on TV numbers but not based on in game attendance,however, decent numbers of TV eyeballs are watching compared to TFC so I get that they should get more media play. However, the Argos get way more media play than they deserve just listen to TSN 1050 or pick up the Toronto Sun you would think that the Argos are packing the Rogers center every game or getting over 2 million viewers every game with some of the media coverage they get.

[ManUtd4ever]

My feelings in a nutshell:

I despise certain elements of the ownership group and the FO, but I still love the badge. Despite all of the trials and tribulations over the last six years, I still get a rush when the team performs well and earns results on the pitch.

[TOBOR !]

I propose a version of this with Tom Anselmi standing in front of an empty BMO Field, TFC themed, of course :

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-45LQBxXb9xc/Tb4ipDlA3PI/AAAAAAAADeI/QoSEoGy0i5M/s1600/mission-accomplished11.jpg

[T-boy]

My 2 cents at the moment:

I personally don't think firing Anselmi will change ANYTHING at TFC. That would be like firing the messenger. It won't achieve anything. The problems with TFC are the same problems as with all the ML$E teams - its an institutionalised problem. Until we can fully affect the whole ownership and organisation, nothing will change at all. The RPB's are largely misdirecting their attention to Anselmi, and as long as this keeps happening, nothing is going to change. We need to direct our attention to the right people and the right part of the organisation, not one guy who is merely passing on the information from board level down to football club level.

Pointing all fingers at Anselmi is like the Blackburn fans all protesting Keen last season. You can't "blame" the guy who's been put in place, you have to blame the people above him. The Blackburn fans eventually started protesting at the right people (Venki's) and not the manager. We HAVE to protest against ML$E. The longer the supporters groups obsess about getting rid of the wrong person (Anselmi) the longer nothing will change. I challenge the RPB's and other supporters groups to protest against the organisation MLSE, and NOT go after the one person. This is an institutional problem. This is war against a multi million dollar company, NOT a bully fight against an individual. Do ANY of you think that replacing Anselmi would actually change ANYTHING at TFC? We need to hit much higher than Anselmi. The people in the FO are just people in the middle of the push from the $ at board level at MLSE and the team, management, and players at TFC, and the pull from the supporters.

Let's hit high, hit hard, and hit at the whole company of MLSE. That is the only way we will affect ANY type of institutional change at the monopoly of sports in the GTA. Going after one dude in a suit, sat in an office, isn't going to achieve anything in the long term at all. He will just be replaced by another patsy who pull the strings that is he given by the company.

These are the people we need to fuck with, not the people working in an office passing down information: http://www.mlse.com/inside_mlse/board_of_directors.aspx

[TFC Tifoso]

Tom Anselmi is Executive Vice-President and COO of MLSE (as per MLSE website)........how much higher do we need to go?........

[Phil]

To be fair we have some new owners coming in with Bell and Rogers.

The thing that may be getting lost in all this Anselmi stuff is that we want the type of change that T-Boy is asking for. What we want is a structure change that provides accountability and transparency. What we don't want is to be in the same situation next year (you know, the same one we have been in for the last 6 years) of having a new coach and blowing up the team.

Start learning from the past, look to other well run teams and emulate their stucture. The academy is a good start but the actuall team needs some foundation and direction. Having Tom step up and make the statements that he took responsibilty made him an easy target, but we all know its not really him, it is the company and their lack of vision.

[TOBOR !]

My 2 cents at the moment:

I personally don't think firing Anselmi will change ANYTHING at TFC. That would be like firing the messenger. It won't achieve anything.

Well, it would make me feel a lot better, plus increase the likelihood of renewing my season seats.

I doubt I'm alone here.

[toronto toronto]

Going a bit off topic here, are we having a march this Wendesday?

[T-boy]

To be fair we have some new owners coming in with Bell and Rogers.

The thing that may be getting lost in all this Anselmi stuff is that we want the type of change that T-Boy is asking for. What we want is a structure change that provides accountability and transparency. What we don't want is to be in the same situation next year (you know, the same one we have been in for the last 6 years) of having a new coach and blowing up the team.

Start learning from the past, look to other well run teams and emulate their stucture. The academy is a good start but the actuall team needs some foundation and direction. Having Tom step up and make the statements that he took responsibilty made him an easy target, but we all know its not really him, it is the company and their lack of vision.

totally TOTALLY agreed!

i'm interested to see what happens at board level from now on. Clearly a board of directors from a pension fund wasn't ever going to run a sports company. What qualifications do ANY of them have, other than their ability to make a profit for their teacher friends? (which was their primary objective). We (the fans of ALL sports teams in the GTA) need to make sure that the change in ownership of MLSE also reflects a change in attitute towards sports in this city. The Leafs, Raptors, and TFC could ALL be great sports teams - but they all suck! It's time it all changed along with the new ownership of the company.

[cmonyoureds]

The SGs have meetings with the TFC FO from time to time.

- Scott

*off topic apologies*

Will the subject/discussion/answers be "published" on this or other sites? And I'm assuming the entire membership doesn't go, but is represented by Phil?

(i know, i know, curiosity kills the cat):drinking:

[Phil]

*off topic apologies*

Will the subject/discussion/answers be "published" on this or other sites? And I'm assuming the entire membership doesn't go, but is represented by Phil?

(i know, i know, curiosity kills the cat):drinking:

Typically I go with some other reps. We normally make the notes and info available to the members.

[nascarguy]

I say fire the whole company of MLSE but let's start with Anselmi and work are way to the top and I want to see us as a group to stop being so nice to mlse

[T-boy]

Is there any way we (RPB's) can get together with the other fan groups from the leafs and raptors? Do these fan groups even exist for those two teams? And would they be interested in a MASS protest between all three sports teams?

For any type of protest, you need numbers of people to have an affect. I don't a protest with JUST TFC fans is ever going to be enough. We need numbers, and we need all MLSE sports to be involved to get institutional change.

[Cashcleaner]

^ Outside of the TC Supporter groups there really doesn't seem to be any other similar groups for teams here in Toronto. At least none that I am aware of.

[Pookie]

My 2 cents at the moment:

I personally don't think firing Anselmi will change ANYTHING at TFC. That would be like firing the messenger. It won't achieve anything. The problems with TFC are the same problems as with all the ML$E teams - its an institutionalised problem. Until we can fully affect the whole ownership and organisation, nothing will change at all. The RPB's are largely misdirecting their attention to Anselmi, and as long as this keeps happening, nothing is going to change. We need to direct our attention to the right people and the right part of the organisation, not one guy who is merely passing on the information from board level down to football club level.

Pointing all fingers at Anselmi is like the Blackburn fans all protesting Keen last season. You can't "blame" the guy who's been put in place, you have to blame the people above him. The Blackburn fans eventually started protesting at the right people (Venki's) and not the manager. We HAVE to protest against ML$E. The longer the supporters groups obsess about getting rid of the wrong person (Anselmi) the longer nothing will change. I challenge the RPB's and other supporters groups to protest against the organisation MLSE, and NOT go after the one person. This is an institutional problem. This is war against a multi million dollar company, NOT a bully fight against an individual. Do ANY of you think that replacing Anselmi would actually change ANYTHING at TFC? We need to hit much higher than Anselmi. The people in the FO are just people in the middle of the push from the $ at board level at MLSE and the team, management, and players at TFC, and the pull from the supporters.

Let's hit high, hit hard, and hit at the whole company of MLSE. That is the only way we will affect ANY type of institutional change at the monopoly of sports in the GTA. Going after one dude in a suit, sat in an office, isn't going to achieve anything in the long term at all. He will just be replaced by another patsy who pull the strings that is he given by the company.

These are the people we need to fuck with, not the people working in an office passing down information: http://www.mlse.com/inside_mlse/board_of_directors.aspx

I respectfully disagree.

Anselmi has inserted himself as TFC's final stop on the organizational structure before the Board of Directors. Meaning most business is handled internally and does not need to go to the Board. Tom's office guides the team and ultimately, if you wanted to bring in Nesta, you would consult with Tom.

What this means is that Tom has the ability to set budgets, allocate resources, veto personnel moves, set vision, set culture and everything that a leader should do.

Contrast that with the Leafs. Performance aside, Brian Burke reports to no one other than the Board. He hires his staff, sets his budgets, vision, decides on trades, etc, etc.

If the Leafs fail, it will be a function of Burke and he would be replaced.

We are simply asking for TFC to have the same structure as the Leafs and/or for the Board to replace the leader of the team with a knowledgeable, connected, respected football executive. This person can decide whether he needs a GM or simply a coach. He can decide where to allocate approved budget resources. He can decide the vision for the team.

Replacing Anselmi with a football executive who can oversee the team and take responsibility (Anselmi did say he only hired two coaches) is the key in turning this franchise around.

[T-boy]

I respectfully disagree.

Anselmi has inserted himself as TFC's final stop on the organizational structure before the Board of Directors. Meaning most business is handled internally and does not need to go to the Board. Tom's office guides the team and ultimately, if you wanted to bring in Nesta, you would consult with Tom.

What this means is that Tom has the ability to set budgets, allocate resources, veto personnel moves, set vision, set culture and everything that a leader should do.

Contrast that with the Leafs. Performance aside, Brian Burke reports to no one other than the Board. He hires his staff, sets his budgets, vision, decides on trades, etc, etc.

If the Leafs fail, it will be a function of Burke and he would be replaced.

We are simply asking for TFC to have the same structure as the Leafs and/or for the Board to replace the leader of the team with a knowledgeable, connected, respected football executive. This person can decide whether he needs a GM or simply a coach. He can decide where to allocate approved budget resources. He can decide the vision for the team.

Replacing Anselmi with a football executive who can oversee the team and take responsibility (Anselmi did say he only hired two coaches) is the key in turning this franchise around.

I understand. But I also think the "common link" between all the unsuccessful sports franchise in toronto is MLSE and the board of directors. Burke doesn't run TFC or the Raptors. He just runs the hockey side of things. Yet they are unsuccessful. Colangelo doesn't run TFC either, he runs the Raptors - and THEY are also unsuccessful! Anselmi runs TFC, and they are unsuccessful.

There is only one commonality between all 3 teams - and that's the board of directors - not Anselmi, Burke, or Colangelo. The board are responsible for hiring and ultimately firing of all of these people. We are never going to get upper management to run a sports franchise well until the board of directors know sports well. Otherwise its like having a mechanic to run an electrical company, who then hire people to run a painting company! It just doesn't work - and the lack of success for ALL MLSE teams are down to this problem.

I agree that Anselmi isn't a good CEO for TFC - but you really have to look above him, as you equally have to look above Burke and Colangelo.

[mastermixer]

It's fairly obvious that if Anselmi has not been held accountable for the past 6 years of impressive dysfunction with TFC, then someone above him is asleep at the wheel.

[TFC07]

Is there any way we (RPB's) can get together with the other fan groups from the leafs and raptors? Do these fan groups even exist for those two teams? And would they be interested in a MASS protest between all three sports teams?

For any type of protest, you need numbers of people to have an affect. I don't a protest with JUST TFC fans is ever going to be enough. We need numbers, and we need all MLSE sports to be involved to get institutional change.

You can go to their forums and try to get some people there to help organized a protest. I am not sure about Leafs, but all hardcore Raptor fans are on forum called RealGM where there's a huge number of Raptor fans posting their displeasure there.

[T-boy]

It's fairly obvious that if Anselmi has not been held accountable for the past 6 years of impressive dysfunction with TFC, then someone above him is asleep at the wheel.

OR - results don't really matter to the people above him. If you were a teacher, or somebody in charge of Ontario Teacher Pensions - why you give a hoot if TFC were not beating Dallas away, as long as you are getting the $$$ to put into your members (teachers) funds? You honest;y wouldn't care a muscle, would you?! :(

[T-boy]

You can go to their forums and try to get some people there to help organized a protest. I am not sure about Leafs, but all hardcore Raptor fans are on forum called RealGM where there's a huge number of Raptor fans posting their displeasure there.

As a very junior (and non member) person on this forum I have to pass this upwards - have any of the upper people in the RPB's talked about getting together with other MLSE sports supporters groups? We would have power in number if we could get the Raptors and Leafs supporters in with us to protest.

[jabbronies]

As a very junior (and non member) person on this forum I have to pass this upwards - have any of the upper people in the RPB's talked about getting together with other MLSE sports supporters groups? We would have power in number if we could get the Raptors and Leafs supporters in with us to protest.

I've mentioned this before with zero traction. I don't think anyone in RPB has any interest in taking on this project. It's a lot of logistics and communications. It's one thing to come up with an idea, it's another to actually get it going. Keep in mind these groups are run by supporters who have full time jobs and choose to support the clubs in their free time. It's not a paid gig and not first priority for many.

If you are feeling ambitious and want to take it on; You can start by trying to rally the Raptor and Leaf supporters and Llias with all of the TFC supporters group leaders to come up with an idea that will work and be efficient for all.

[T-boy]

I've mentioned this before with zero traction. I don't think anyone in RPB has any interest in taking on this project. It's a lot of logistics and communications. It's one thing to come up with an idea, it's another to actually get it going. Keep in mind these groups are run by supporters who have full time jobs and choose to support the clubs in their free time. It's not a paid gig and not first priority for many.

If you are feeling ambitious and want to take it on; You can start by trying to rally the Raptor and Leaf supporters and Llias with all of the TFC supporters group leaders to come up with an idea that will work and be efficient for all.

Well, I wish I had time too, of course! This is going to be the big issue with creating change. Somebody in this city is going to have to dig deep to take on the mighty MLSE. I know if you read what I'm suggesting you might think I'm just full of air, like other people. I'd LOVE to have the time to put it all together, but simply don't :( I'm willing to help, of course, like I think a lot of people would. But to get something like this moving, you will need a lot of time on your hands to arrange between the different groups of people.

[Pookie]

As a very junior (and non member) person on this forum I have to pass this upwards - have any of the upper people in the RPB's talked about getting together with other MLSE sports supporters groups? We would have power in number if we could get the Raptors and Leafs supporters in with us to protest.

There can be no "protest" with the Leafs/Raptors. For one they are not organized.

Secondly and more importantly, a vast number of Season Ticket holders bought Personal Seat Licenses which act as equity that they can resell. You can sell your PSL to someone else, MLSE makes about $600 on the sale, and they can then buy your season tickets. The PSL is essentially the right to buy a ticket. The catch? If you ever opt to not renew your season tickets, you lose your PSL AND the season tickets and MLSE resells them both.

No one is going to do that. Ever.

The Raptors are one of 3 NBA teams to have PSLs. The Leafs are one of 2 NHL teams to have them.

Fortunately, MLSE started thinking about PSLs for TFC back in year 1. Remember when they removed the ability for us to transfer season ticket to someone else? That was the start of the PSL push and it was talked about within the golden walls of MLSE... to the point that I was asked not to "talk about it" (as I was sounding the alarm bells) by one MLSE insider as there was a fear that there would be a movement towards it. My guess is that they just wanted to quietly move towards it.

Just like the "Membership" fee for the Red and Gold listers that would give them the "right" to be able to buy single game tickets in the North Stand. That concept was floated around as well. Call it a mini-PSL.

In any event, the TFC fan won't put up with that and that would effectively kill the fan base. That said, the plan is still there. Waiting for the sell out days of yore. Which is why removing the current regime and in particular its leader is of paramount importance at this point in time.

[Shakes McQueen]

The PSL's for gold listers were essentially implemented - just in the form of a crappy, expensive Marlies ticket pack you were forced to buy, to get on the list.

And yes, for the reasons Pookie mentioned, good luck getting many Leafs or Raptors STH on board for a protest.

- Scott

[T-boy]

The PSL's for gold listers were essentially implemented - just in the form of a crappy, expensive Marlies ticket pack you were forced to buy, to get on the list.

And yes, for the reasons Pookie mentioned, good luck getting many Leafs or Raptors STH on board for a protest.

- Scott

Then we are all a little screwed really! :( I think this is why I try and avoid all the politics involved with Toronto sports - basically we (the fans) can't do F-all about anything. Talking about tactics and your favourite player is best place to stick to, then you aren't drawn into something that just is unmovable. Until Toronto sports fans can realise that they CAN make a change if they all group together, we all just have to suck up what drivel MLSE feeds us.

Let's just hope the change in ownership of MLSE means change in mentality for the whole organisation.