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tiberius
05-06-2012, 01:44 AM
bottom line - if you have to choose: Winter, De Klerk and the players or Paul Bierne, Tommy Anselmi, and Earl Cochrane (no pun required). Make your stand - Who the hell do you get rid of? It seems simple to me, but of course there really are not any easy answers....

narduch
05-06-2012, 06:47 AM
There should have been an all of the above option.

Just One Man
05-06-2012, 07:14 AM
All four ought to be fired, but this either/or between Winter and management is just more bullshit to try and let Winter off the hook.

The management sucks, but Winter is 0 and fucking 8.

OgtheDim
05-06-2012, 08:40 AM
All four ought to be fired, but this either/or between Winter and management is just more bullshit to try and let Winter off the hook.

....

Yeah, cause you know, not wanting to fire Winter right now means you think he has no responsibility. :rolleyes5:

Beach_Red
05-06-2012, 08:42 AM
^ Yes, that's it. Sure, big changes need to be made but that will have to wait until the sale is sorted out. On the menatime we're setting every futility eecord in the league.

It's time for this team to stop talking nonsense about, "affecting the way the game is played in North America," and just start playing the game.

It's time for an experienced guy to run the team, just to stop the bleeding. Pull someone out of retirement just to finish the season and try to make the team slightly less embarrassing.

Pookie
05-06-2012, 08:51 AM
It can't be all 4 at once though. That would mean that the Board made that decision and that would leave all 4 spots vacant at the same time. One has to come before the other.

So, you have to choose:

1. Let Anselmi fire Winter and bring in his replacement. The pro- there might be an improvement in results. The con- the new guy inherits the same mess as Winter had and the team is still fundamentally broke. We are trusting Anselmi to ensure that this the 5th pick.. no... 6th... no wait... 7th pick is the real winner

2. Remove Anselmi (et al) and defer the decision on Winter. The pro- the new leadership can select its course of action and bring in their managers to implement it. The con- there is going to be a period where Winter/Mariner have no real check and balance. Results will likely not improve over 2012 while the executive search continues.

Roogsy
05-06-2012, 08:55 AM
It's a logical fallacy that these options in the poll are the only two choices.

Winter needs to go.
They need to clean house at TFC and get rid of Anselmi and Cochrane. I could care less if they get rid of Paul B, he has nothing to do with the product on the pitch BUT when they bring in a real team president that does not answer to Uncle Tom and only to the board, Paul needs to report to him not the board.

That's the best thing for this team.

Pookie
05-06-2012, 09:17 AM
So Winter goes first.

New coach comes in.

Then Anselmi and Cochrane go. New president comes in.

What happens to new coach?

Is a possible 8th coach (after Winter's replacement) really the best thing for this team?

Just One Man
05-06-2012, 09:33 AM
So Winter goes first.

New coach comes in.

Then Anselmi and Cochrane go. New president comes in.

What happens to new coach?

Is a possible 8th coach (after Winter's replacement) really the best thing for this team?

How wouldn't it be? What on earth are you clinging to here?

This is the worst team to ever start an MLS season. EVER.

Doing whatever needs to be done to change that is the best thing for this team.

If there is a wholesale house cleaning of all management (which there fucking wont be, so you all ought to just drop this pipe dream), do you think the potential new coach is going to look at the organization and say "I don't know, your last management team wasn't very successful. Sorry, I wont take the job".

You get rid of management, then it is a clean slate. Expansion all over again.

Management isn't going anywhere though, so get fucking used to it and start calling for the head of the guy who has done a worse job than any one of his much maligned predecessors; hell, the guy who has done a worse job than anyone ever in this league.

This is not complicated!

:banghead:

AL-MO
05-06-2012, 09:40 AM
Get rid of everyone. Clean house.

Anselmi, Beirne, Winter, the whole lot.

Fort York Redcoat
05-06-2012, 09:45 AM
bottom line - if you have to choose: Winter, De Klerk and the players or Paul Bierne, Tommy (the fuck) Anselmi, and Earl Cochrane (no pun required). Make your stand - Who the hell do you get rid of? It seems simple to me, but I don't think the members of RPB are actually thinking straight these days...

So we run the club now?

RedDevils
05-06-2012, 09:49 AM
So Winter goes first.

New coach comes in.

Then Anselmi and Cochrane go. New president comes in.

What happens to new coach?

Is a possible 8th coach (after Winter's replacement) really the best thing for this team?

There is no way a complete restructuring will happen. The new coach will be someone from within the club who will have different ideas tactically (I hope). If he does well who knows if new management will keep him. If not we'll have an 8th coach. Such is life.

What the supporters need to do now is make noise like you guys did during the season ticket rise two years back. There will probably be new owners in a few months and they'll be making decisions on execs. This Winter fiasco is a result of the PB/TA brain trust. Those two need to go. As a big Leafs and Raptors fan I don't think my heart could take Anselmi getting promoted. The guy that made the decision of hiring Mo and Winter running actual NA sports franchises is scary, scarier than the current nitwits. I also don't think our clubs circus management structure is a sign of incompetence, but worse. Anselmi and PB effectively put 4 guys between them and the results instead of one. Buffers. Instead of getting us North American management, they went and signed a European coach with zero senior experience. They didn't actually care about the results, they were thinking about all the marketing gimmicks, all the silly notebooks with X's and O's they can send us to keep us quiet. Shekshy voetbal. We were making an even bigger mistake than LA did with Gullit (which is so well documented and laid out for all to see) and the entire league was quietly pointing and snickering.

Paul Beirne is just as clueless when it comes to managing the off-the-pitch side of football. Every club in the league (except Dallas, and maybe New England) have seen a huge increase in supporter quality. They followed the Chicago model that was there for us to emulate. Go back and read the history. U-Sector had the right idea, behind the net in 115. Paul Beirne cared about the cameras, not the quality of the support 5-10 years down the road, and forced all the supporters in the corner they're in today. No room for growth, everyone is in separate sections, supporters section with thousands of seats when in fact there are only a couple hundred 90 minute all out supporters that need to be grouped in one area, so that they can grow out and attract those thousands. Our peers as supporter groups are in FC Dallas and New England (OK, maybe not that bad, but ironically we aren't much better than Columbus, Nordecke makes 112-113 look silly on a good day). Think about that. Because if you think we're up there with the Portlands and Seattles of this league you're still living in the egocentric 2007 days. The hugely insulting decision to bring Liverpool (and giving them a supporters section, home colors, and charging us $60 for SS tickets) is the rotten cherry on top of the shitcake.

Don't need to expand much on Cochrane. He went from reserving hotels and cars for the CSA to deciding an MLS club's draft strategy overnight, all because he can keep a secret and is a good guy to shoot the shit with. Cronyism 101.

A football club is a triumvirate. Management, players, and supporters. All equally important. All need football minds to succeed. The supporters need to let the new owners know from now the problems with this club lie at the top and that these people need to go, not get promoted. Because like I said, god help my battered psyche if Anselmi is running the Leafs and the Raps.

jimiv
05-06-2012, 09:52 AM
How is Paul Mariner safe?

fiji_blue
05-06-2012, 09:53 AM
The answer is new ownership focused on running a winning soccer organization .... While mlse runs a soccer team in this town we will not have anything to proud of....

tiberius
05-06-2012, 09:54 AM
So we run the club now? I would buy shares! How could we possibly do worst than this! BTW the poll is more about the order of doing things, not an attempt to preserve Winter for the long term...

Fort York Redcoat
05-06-2012, 10:06 AM
BTW the poll is more about the order of doing things, not an attempt to preserve Winter for the long term...

Yes I see that. And you don't need to lump the group into one opinion. Just like I wouldn't lump all Users into one opinion. People will differ on what road the team should take.

Roogsy
05-06-2012, 10:09 AM
So Winter goes first.

New coach comes in.

Then Anselmi and Cochrane go. New president comes in.

What happens to new coach?

Is a possible 8th coach (after Winter's replacement) really the best thing for this team?

It's a chicken before the egg problem Pookie. It's not ideal but you also can't sit there and wait for the ideal circumstances to make moves. It may never come and then what?

C.Ronaldo
05-06-2012, 10:14 AM
im wearing my jays hat next game

LETS GO BLUE JAYS!!!

Fort York Redcoat
05-06-2012, 10:17 AM
im wearing my jays hat next game

LETS GO BLUE JAYS!!!

You won't be alone.

There were those doing that yesterday. I understand your frustration but it's not very original.

TFCRegina
05-06-2012, 10:51 AM
No all of the above option makes this a worthless poll.

69Chevy396
05-06-2012, 11:04 AM
No all of the above option makes this a worthless poll.

Interesting thread. MLSE is making easy money on TFC. Despite the poor walk up crowd, and season ticket holders weeding their lawns instead of visiting the park, they are earning buckets of easy money from the near 80 percent fully paid BMO. How many mls clubs can claim that? If everybody stayed home the rest of the season they would still be making a profit. So how is this a recipe for firing the head office? This organization has made billions during the time the leafs have been mediocre, those condos, the rogers centre were paid for with the money and misery of forlorn toronto fans. I fully support sending the entire mlse office to pasture, but it is naive at best to think this will ever happen. The best thing you guys at RPB can do is simply turn your backs on the game...or force the players to remove their shirts and play in their underwear or somehting. The predictable will happen: This october a new field boss will be hired with promises of success, and you will find out his name after you sign your 2013 ticket renewals.

ManUtd4ever
05-06-2012, 11:05 AM
How is Paul Mariner safe?

Based on TFC's current deplorable record, no one is without blame. However, I still think Mariner has done an adequate job recruiting talent since he was hired. The club has been mismanaged from a tactical standpoint and underachieved as a result. That is an indictment of the coaching staff.

Pondo
05-06-2012, 11:16 AM
Get rid of 4-3-3, and counter attack at home.

ag futbol
05-06-2012, 11:52 AM
Get rid of everyone. Clean house.

Anselmi, Beirne, Winter, the whole lot.
Bingo. Scorch the earth.

Pookie
05-06-2012, 11:54 AM
It's a chicken before the egg problem Pookie. It's not ideal but you also can't sit there and wait for the ideal circumstances to make moves. It may never come and then what?

I agree though I would add that in addition to the chicken and the egg, there is a coyote in this little hen house.

The chicken and egg is Winter or Anselmi, who goes first to improve performance?

The coyote is the problem that no one seems to be addressing and left unchecked, it will eat both the chicken and the egg.

Anselmi has price gouged his greedy fingers to a point where the franchise is threatened. To compensate for raising ticket prices, he gave us DPs. This year, 3/4 of our $8M payroll is tied up in 1 less than useful and 2 oft-injured contributors. This has resulted in a roster that is built around inexpensive youth with the idea that these DPs would fill the gap. The problem is that when they are hurt, we have inexpensive and inexperienced youth (Henry, Morgan, Silva, Lambe, Plata (sub) yesterday)... nearly 40% of the starting roster with less than a 1yr of MLS experience.

We have the most expensive tickets in the league. Attendance is no where near capacity and while they think winning cures all, individuals can't afford the corporate pricing structure they have created. But they need the price point in order to offset their quick-fix/band aid spends on DPs.

A fundamental change to the way the team is built is necessary in order to bring the team back to the fans in a way that is affordable and fair.

Alonso
05-06-2012, 12:01 PM
I propose to change the title from the 3 wise men to the three stooges.

Other then that great poll, and fire the 3 stooges!

tiberius
05-06-2012, 12:12 PM
Yes I see that. And you don't need to lump the group into one opinion. Just like I wouldn't lump all Users into one opinion. People will differ on what road the team should take.
good point - I will get rid of the lumping together bit...

Carts
05-06-2012, 12:21 PM
I have been a "keep Winter and allow him to build" etc etc etc from the start of this dismal season...

I honestly thought that it was best to allow him to seed the roots with our club and implement the football culture he speaks of...

I honestly thought it was best to ride out the storm, not be rash or make a major decision too quickly...

I honestly think I am WRONG.. :(

Seeing Ryan Johnson have a screaming match with Winter on the sidelines during a game, seeing Frings storm off the pitch and throw the arm band down, seeing the losses pile up, seeing the frustration grow, seeing the disaster get worse and worse - time for something to change...

Our ownership will not change - time for those in charge of the football club to change...

I am seriously considering downgrading my season tickets. I don't think I'll ever give them up (which is part of the problem I know) but I'm thinking taking my $2000 down to a single ticket for $500 approx... And I know, this is it for spending $$$ at BMO - why give them my hard earned money for this...

They need to clean house, and start from scratch, yet again... Sad, but I think unfortunately true...

This really sucks :(

Roogsy
05-06-2012, 12:27 PM
The most intelligent thing I heard yesterday was a friend who said:

"Culture? You want to bring culture to this club with a system? What about a culture of winning? Is that not important? Will kids want to grow up and play soccer for this club when this is what they see? You have to wonder about the damage to the game this club is doing by being so incompetent. "

Can't say I disagree with him.

Cashcleaner
05-06-2012, 12:33 PM
It's a logical fallacy that these options in the poll are the only two choices.

Winter needs to go.
They need to clean house at TFC and get rid of Anselmi and Cochrane. I could care less if they get rid of Paul B, he has nothing to do with the product on the pitch BUT when they bring in a real team president that does not answer to Uncle Tom and only to the board, Paul needs to report to him not the board.

That's the best thing for this team.

Yeah, I don't get why people are getting up in arms over Paul B. The guy has zero input on how the team plays. I'm not even sure if getting rid of Cochrane would have a big impact either, but if you are going to replace Tom A the next guy that comes along will probably want to pick his own team director.

prizby
05-06-2012, 02:39 PM
of course i misread the options oops

Code Red
05-06-2012, 02:43 PM
Sharpen your spears gentlemen. It's hunting season. g:D

RedDevils
05-06-2012, 02:47 PM
Yeah, I don't get why people are getting up in arms over Paul B. The guy has zero input on how the team plays. I'm not even sure if getting rid of Cochrane would have a big impact either, but if you are going to replace Tom A the next guy that comes along will probably want to pick his own team director.

Again, Aron Winter was OK'd by Tom Anselmi AND Paul Beirne. There are very few major decisions that happen without Paul Beirne's final OK.

This includes the Liverpool friendly. Not sure there are many that think that's a good idea at this time.

But besides that, declining attendance, declining atmosphere, mismanaging supporters groups from day one, the man has been an abject failure. This club and its supporters flourished despite him.

Cochrane needs to go because he's part of a circus-like structure in our FO. He has done nothing to deserve a promotion to a position that is meaningless. What does he do exactly? He's part of the old regime, he's Anselmi's man amongst Mariner, Winter, and BDK.

Libra_60
05-06-2012, 04:03 PM
Clean slate. Anselmi, Bierne, Cochrane, Winter & DeClerc all must be axed if we are truly going to see a future with this club. The players have no respect for the idiots running the team as it is quite obvious on and off the pitch.

After all the assholes are given their pink slips, I say let Frings be a player/manager.

Beach_Red
05-06-2012, 04:04 PM
Again, Aron Winter was OK'd by Tom Anselmi AND Paul Beirne. There are very few major decisions that happen without Paul Beirne's final OK.

This includes the Liverpool friendly. Not sure there are many that think that's a good idea at this time.

But besides that, declining attendance, declining atmosphere, mismanaging supporters groups from day one, the man has been an abject failure. This club and its supporters flourished despite him.

Cochrane needs to go because he's part of a circus-like structure in our FO. He has done nothing to deserve a promotion to a position that is meaningless. What does he do exactly? He's part of the old regime, he's Anselmi's man amongst Mariner, Winter, and BDK.

Asked and answered.

This kind of interrnal politics isn't even that rare, it's just usually seen in government offices, places with no issues of profit or loss - which I guess fits MLSE. Could TFC have been managed any worse, and still it makes a profit.

Stryker
05-06-2012, 04:27 PM
Get rid of everyone. Clean house.

Anselmi, Beirne, Winter, the whole lot.I agree. Don't forget Cochrane though. His useless ass needs to go as much as anyone else.
Let Mariner coach the rest of the season and go from there.

RedDevils
05-06-2012, 04:48 PM
http://i.imgur.com/u1ugF.jpg

sashavukelich
05-06-2012, 05:04 PM
Someone said Frings for Player Manager. I'm okay with that for this season.

We need to stop the Rot. Winter Out, BDK out. I feel as if Mariner's recruitment has been okay so far frankly, and the players we have seem to like him.

Ajax TFC
05-06-2012, 06:18 PM
Frings won't be the manager. For one, players shouldn't have to worry about anything other than their own play. And when he retires, he'll go back to Bremen where he's already agreed to coach their youth team.
What we need to do is get rid of everyone, then hire someone who know what the hell their doing as the general manager and president, kind of like Burke's position (maybe Mariner), then let him hire who they want to coach the team according to how they want the team to play

denime
05-06-2012, 06:26 PM
Frings won't be the manager. For one, players shouldn't have to worry about anything other than their own play. And when he retires, he'll go back to Bremen where he's already agreed to coach their youth team.
What we need to do is get rid of everyone, then hire someone who know what the hell their doing as the general manager and president, kind of like Burke's position (maybe Mariner), then let him hire who they want to coach the team according to how they want the team to play

And this might be sooner than we think considering his latest injury.

I would not be surprised if yesterdays game was his last one.

Ajax TFC
05-06-2012, 06:31 PM
have they announced the details of the injury yet? I haven't been able to find anything about it

nascarguy
05-06-2012, 07:01 PM
I say go ahead continue to whack coaches it's only going to save me money. hey BELL and Rogers you when my season ticket money back FIRE Paul Bierne, Tommy (the fuck) Anselmi, and Earl Cochrane and I will think about it for next season

Initial B
05-06-2012, 07:11 PM
The way I see it, Anselmi and the FO will not get rid of Winter now. They will wait until after Bell/Rogers have officially taken control. If they throw him under the bus too early and the team doesn't improve, then they become the targets in the crosshairs of the new owners. Better to have the sacrifice ready for the new owners. And if Winter manages to turn things around, then they get complimented on their foresight.

Bell/Rogers is going to be looking very closely, because it doesn't matter if bodies are in the seats, what matters is the media revenue and more people watch a winning team than a losing one.

Code Red
05-06-2012, 07:45 PM
I think the answer to our problems lies in getting a bigger drum. May I suggest this one:

http://images.sympatico.ca/images/Feeds/reuters_pg/Life/06/RTR30ZLQ_RTR31ES7_640.jpg

Parkdale
05-06-2012, 08:05 PM
I could care less if they get rid of Paul B, he has nothing to do with the product on the pitch BUT when they bring in a real team president that does not answer to Uncle Tom and only to the board, Paul needs to report to him not the board.

that's pretty much it. Paul B has been behind some pretty boneheaded mistakes from this team (Real Madrid friendly.....) but he's not responsible for the product on the field. His job isn't to put a winner on the field, it's to make sure the lights are on and the game can go ahead. He's like the manager of a movie theater... don't blame him if the flick is terrible, but the seats are clean and the popcorn is fluffy.

Now for Tom Anselmi.... He should be on the hook for turning 3 of Toronto's teams into basement dwelling losers who are the butt of a national joke.

Parkdale
05-06-2012, 08:07 PM
an I shouldn't even need to say this... but I don't get kickbacks or comped tickets or reacharounds from MLSE, and never have.

RedDevils
05-06-2012, 08:22 PM
that's pretty much it. Paul B has been behind some pretty boneheaded mistakes from this team (Real Madrid friendly.....) but he's not responsible for the product on the field. His job isn't to put a winner on the field, it's to make sure the lights are on and the game can go ahead. He's like the manager of a movie theater... don't blame him if the flick is terrible, but the seats are clean and the popcorn is fluffy.

Now for Tom Anselmi.... He should be on the hook for turning 3 of Toronto's teams into basement dwelling losers who are the butt of a national joke.

For the nth time, the decision to hire Winter was made by Anselmi AND Beirne. I wish the town halls were recorded.

But even if you don't buy that, the drop in atmosphere is on Beirne. Most expensive tickets in the league is on Beirne. The disgusting way they're doing the Liverpool friendly this year, on Beirne.

We need a clean house. We've been a failure from day one, so IMO everyone senior involved from day one has to go.

Parkdale
05-06-2012, 08:33 PM
For the nth time, the decision to hire Winter was made by Anselmi AND Beirne. I wish the town halls were recorded.

But even if you don't buy that, the drop in atmosphere is on Beirne. Most expensive tickets in the league is on Beirne. The disgusting way they're doing the Liverpool friendly this year, on Beirne.

We need a clean house. We've been a failure from day one, so IMO everyone senior involved from day one has to go.

Winter was brought in at the suggestion of Klinsman, and we didn't have any reason to question his advice. I bet Beirne was just happy Preki was gone and we didn't have a perma-interm coach under Nick Daso anymore.

and believe me, I'm not saying the boneheaded moves aren't there, I'm just saying that it's separate from the on field results. IF we were contenders, then the mistakes wouldn't matter so much, but because the team is habitually shit, every mistake is under the magnifying glass.

RedDevils
05-06-2012, 08:54 PM
Winter was brought in at the suggestion of Klinsman, and we didn't have any reason to question his advice. I bet Beirne was just happy Preki was gone and we didn't have a perma-interm coach under Nick Daso anymore.

Klinsmann gave them a list of managers and PB and TA picked one. If one was a cynic one would say that the marketing spin they could put behind the BS of an Ajax-style academy factored in, when the sole focus should have been on the pitch, but of course one would have to be really, really cynical. I'll just chalk it up to two guys who know nothing about the sport making a really bad decision.

While we're on the subject, getting advice from Klinsmann is in and of itself a really really bad decision. We needed staff that knew the USSF pyramid from top to bottom, not one that knew which neighborhood in Amsterdam has really good players to scout. The president of our club and the manager of our club need to know the MLS and the NCAA like the back of their hands. That's where you find success in the MLS, not chasing after Euro dreams a la the Gullit experiment.

And just as someone who really enjoys supporters culture, we need someone in the FO that understands the basics of support. We need someone that isn't arrogant with and dismissive of the SGs. I wish the FO viewed SGs as important partners and not just tools.

KRO
05-06-2012, 09:10 PM
I can't believe that anyone still thinks Winter should stay. This system that he's forcing on the players is not working. How many games lost is it going to take for that to sink in? Beirne, Anselmi et al is just business - the football is what matters and that is on the coaches head.

Oldtimer
05-06-2012, 09:26 PM
U-Sector had the right idea, behind the net in 115. Paul Beirne cared about the cameras, not the quality of the support 5-10 years down the road, and forced all the supporters in the corner they're in today.

Sorry, but I call bullshit on this. I was there for the initial discussions in 2006 on Simon's board, before we were even called the RPB, and we chose 112 ourselves because we thought that the group would be small, and we could all congregate there together. Paul B. did not in any way decide where we would go.

Same thing goes for U-Sector, which numbered max 20 or so at that time in 2006. They discussed various areas, including behind the net, but decided on 113 because the net would block their displays.

I personally chose 114 for various reasons that no longer apply, thinking that I could always move my seat later on if I wanted to stand with the "small" group (how wrong I was!).


While we're on the subject, getting advice from Klinsmann is in and of itself a really really bad decision. We needed staff that knew the USSF pyramid from top to bottom, not one that knew which neighborhood in Amsterdam has really good players to scout.

You don't really know that much about Klinsmann, do you? This post shows that in spades.

I'll admit that AW hasn't worked out, but we don't really know what Klinsmann recommended to Anselmi. For all we know, Winter was his #20 choice, but Anselmi picked Winter for the "total football" (cringe) marketing possibilities. It's unfair to tar Klinsmann with ML$E's incompetence. As far as US Soccer, Klinsmann has a lot of familiarity with what is going on.

Beach_Red
05-06-2012, 09:52 PM
Klinsmann gave them a list of managers and PB and TA picked one. If one was a cynic one would say that the marketing spin they could put behind the BS of an Ajax-style academy factored in, when the sole focus should have been on the pitch, but of course one would have to be really, really cynical. I'll just chalk it up to two guys who know nothing about the sport making a really bad decision.
.

Do you happen to know if any of the others on the list had American experience?

LesH
05-06-2012, 09:59 PM
There should have been an all of the above option.

This!

RedDevils
05-06-2012, 10:07 PM
Sorry, but I call bullshit on this. I was there for the initial discussions in 2006 on Simon's board, before we were even called the RPB, and we chose 112 ourselves because we thought that the group would be small, and we could all congregate there together. Paul B. did not in any way decide where we would go.

Same thing goes for U-Sector, which numbered max 20 or so at that time in 2006. They discussed various areas, including behind the net, but decided on 113 because the net would block their displays.

I personally chose 114 for various reasons that no longer apply, thinking that I could always move my seat later on if I wanted to stand with the "small" group (how wrong I was!).



You don't really know that much about Klinsmann, do you? This post shows that in spades.

I'll admit that AW hasn't worked out, but we don't really know what Klinsmann recommended to Anselmi. For all we know, Winter was his #20 choice, but Anselmi picked Winter for the "total football" (cringe) marketing possibilities. It's unfair to tar Klinsmann with ML$E's incompetence. As far as US Soccer, Klinsmann has a lot of familiarity with what is going on.

When I get some time I'll dig up some of the old posts on U-Sector if they aren't gone. I was also there, but on the U-Sector board. Think I had like two posts, ah those were the days.

Please do tell, what kind of knowledge Klinsmann has of the USSF pyramid and the NCAA? Besides living in LA and the recent coaching gig, I have a hard time figuring out why he made such a good consultant. I'm genuinely ignorant on the subject here, so drop some knowledge, all ears. I just feel a more American-centric approach would have benefited us more.

If I put on my cynic hat again, a name like Klinsmann acting as a consultant during a turbulent renewal period helps push ticket sales in a certain direction. Thankfully I rarely wear that hat.

We know Klinsmann gave Anselmi AND Beirne a list and they picked a name. I'm not sure how what I said tars Klinsmann. If MLSE called ,e up and said take a million dollars and give us a list of guys I'd be stupid to turn it down. Goes back to the point that this goes way beyond Winter, we need to look at the two guys that hired him. We need to focus on the two guys that structured the club in such a fashion that protects them. There are 4 guys that have to get fired before Beirne, 5 guys until the damage reaches Anselmi. This structure isn't set up for success it's set up for lots of finger pointing.

RedDevils
05-06-2012, 10:11 PM
Do you happen to know if any of the others on the list had American experience?

Wish I knew. That would be quite the leak if that document got out, never going to happen though. We just know they got a few names and the final decision was in Beirne and Anselmi's hands. That was Klinsmann's job.

The boost in renewals was just a nice side-effect. The decision to go with Klinsmann had absolutely nothing to do with marketing and sales, nothing.

Pookie
05-06-2012, 10:15 PM
I have always found Paul B to be responsive and genuine.

That said, one question I would have is who is responsible for the ticket/revenue strategy? It is a business after all and in year 1 they were profitable.

They opted to maximize revenue, jack up prices and go after a corporate buyer. Same seat, higher price, different market.

The problem was that while prices went up, their position in the standings didn't. So they looked for quick fixes to placate the masses. A new coach, or two or three, or four... a CANADIAN DP woohoo.... And another one in Mista as in Missed-da Goal.... ok, so the team isn't any good, how about some real grass?

All of which served to bump up expenses. When expenses go up, income can't drop or else profits drop. So, the cycle can never break. They have priced themselves to a point where they are dependent on the big names to pull them out.

Our roster management becomes 6m in 3 DPs, 2 of which are injured and the other has never panned out. And since it is a cap system, the rest will be inexperienced and cheap. When our 3 DPs don't play because of injury or ineffectiveness we are left with rookies. Yesterday, a big number of minutes were given to Silva, Henry, Morgan, and Lambe. 4 starters with 1 year experience at most. Plata, with just a year under his belt was a sub.

So roster management becomes tied to club revenues and as long as ticket prices stay where they are, they can't pull the band aids off.

nascarguy
05-06-2012, 10:50 PM
I think the answer to our problems lies in getting a bigger drum. May I suggest this one:

http://images.sympatico.ca/images/Feeds/reuters_pg/Life/06/RTR30ZLQ_RTR31ES7_640.jpg so what your saying is that 112 needs a bigger drum

Cashcleaner
05-07-2012, 12:09 AM
I can't believe that anyone still thinks Winter should stay. This system that he's forcing on the players is not working. How many games lost is it going to take for that to sink in? Beirne, Anselmi et al is just business - the football is what matters and that is on the coaches head.

I can totally understand why people are taking that position. We've had so many people in that position of manager that the constant change has become tiring to follow. I really don't blame people for taking the "wait and see" approach. I disagree with their arguments, but I completely understand why they may be taking that position.



I'll admit that AW hasn't worked out, but we don't really know what Klinsmann recommended to Anselmi. For all we know, Winter was his #20 choice, but Anselmi picked Winter for the "total football" (cringe) marketing possibilities. It's unfair to tar Klinsmann with ML$E's incompetence. As far as US Soccer, Klinsmann has a lot of familiarity with what is going on.

I'm glad others are starting to acknowledge this point. The fact is, nobody outside the club has seen the recommendations Klinsmann made. The fact that we ended up picking Winter should not be misconstrued that he was the number one choice (or the last choice for that matter).

MisterMacphisto
05-07-2012, 09:11 AM
Personally, I'm even thrilled that the question of whether Anselmi and Bernie should be sacked it being asked.

To which my resounding answer is YES!!!
The question is not even being asked in the press. MLSE's got their hand so far in the pot with the local soccer press, TV stations, broadcast rights.

Bring in people who have a football background, who love sport (not entertainment), and who's main goal is to win championships. (Not hopefully, maybe make playoffs)

The marketing, profits and shit will take care of itself.

Canary10
05-07-2012, 09:17 AM
Get rid of 4-3-3, and counter attack at home.


This is what they did Saturday and everyone, including the other team's captain gave Winter shit for doing it.

Canary10
05-07-2012, 09:22 AM
If Mariner and Cochrane aren't part of the purge that is coming, I'll be about done with this team. Changing upper management will have to come later, as someone in the short terms has to decide to pull the trigger and who is coming in to fix it.

trane
05-07-2012, 09:48 AM
The most intelligent thing I heard yesterday was a friend who said:

"Culture? You want to bring culture to this club with a system? What about a culture of winning? Is that not important? Will kids want to grow up and play soccer for this club when this is what they see? You have to wonder about the damage to the game this club is doing by being so incompetent. "

Can't say I disagree with him.

He voice my feelings exactly, and this is why I am so mad at those voicing blind loyalty to this piece of shit organizations, because that is what it is a peace of fucking shit. It makes money, but it has not fucking clue about winning in any sport, much less football. So every fucking year that it carries our cities footy flag, and every fucking year that it keeps on losing it dose not help football it hurts it. People are starting to joke about TFC. People are starting to talk about the curse of Toronto franchises. Bullshit, there is not curse there is a lack of winning culture among management, AND AMONG SUPPORTERS, AND YOU SEE IT EVERY FUCKING TIME YOU GET ON THE BOARD. YOU SAID IT BEFORE THIS I SUPPORT YOU EVEN IF YOU FEED ME SHIT ENABLES A CULTURE OF LOSING. I will not be part of that crap.


For fuck-sakes, we now hold the record for worse start for the season, and YET there is still not universal call for firing everyone. For me that is incredible. UN-FUCKING-believable.

Suds
05-07-2012, 09:49 AM
Something is very wrong at TFC right now. I don't think anyone a year ago envisioned a team being 0-8, with no signs the team is improving, and starting to actually play like they don't care anymore. IMO the team is actually getting worse as weeks go by. I don't think even the early detractors of Winter imagined it would be this bad. They were not convinced it was a good choice for TFC; but this bad??

Issues have to lay at the feet of the people in management who made the decisions on who to hire and how the structure of that team management has been set up. It's clearly not working. They need to change how that group is structured and change the personnel.

I pass by the MLSE box on my way out from my seats and often see Anselmi, Beirne, and others. Usually a quick nod, hello, or chat as I pass by. On my way out this past Saturday I looked over to Anselmi. The only way I can describe the look on his face was tired - or like his pet just died. You can see the strain on their faces. This is the worse case scenario and I think they are at a total loss as to what has transpired. It can't be fun in the TFC offices these days. I'm sure there are a few people looking over their shoulder.

Oldtimer
05-07-2012, 09:49 AM
The most intelligent thing I heard yesterday was a friend who said:

"Culture? You want to bring culture to this club with a system? What about a culture of winning? Is that not important? Will kids want to grow up and play soccer for this club when this is what they see? You have to wonder about the damage to the game this club is doing by being so incompetent. "

Can't say I disagree with him.

The damage done is incredible.

I honestly truly hoped that they had gotten it right with Winter. I knew that the club could not afford to get it wrong this time, so I had hoped that Klinsmann's group could help clueless Tom Anselmi out.

I was willing to give Aron a year from his rebuild to get it right (I gave him to the rebuild time because he was brought in so late). I'm a patient guy. I have no regrets about not jumping to conclusions after 1/2 a season.

However, the clear signs of a locker-room meltdown shows me that they got it wrong with Winter, and this means that we have seen the end of decent attendance for years to come. Think Toronto Rock, only worse.

That also means that those of us who sided against DeRo, like myself, during the blowup with the club were also wrong, and I freely admit this, Roogsy. Trading TFC's best player away, who wanted to finish his career in his home town, and who still has a love for Toronto and wants our club not to be the laughing stock of MLS will always be a stain on Tom Anselmi's career.

Instead of trying to wow us with "Total Football," having a more pragmatic approach and building around DeRo would have been a more sensible approach. DC is now taking that step.

Anselmi & Paul B. are responsible for burying what could have been Toronto's hotest sporting franchise for generations to come. I include Paul B. in this for his raising of season ticket prices to unsustainable levels, and ignoring the fans when they told him he had screwed up. How's that waiting list, Paul? ;)

Beach_Red
05-07-2012, 10:04 AM
Anselmi & Paul B. are responsible for burying what could have been Toronto's hotest sporting franchise for generations to come.

So true. But maybe not for a whole generation. People showed there was huge interest here for soccer - all we asked was that the team be professional and professionally-run. Didn't seem too much to ask and Bell/Rogers may finally bring that to the team. If they do, they will be able to undo the damage quickly, I think because this city is still starved for sports.

I was also hopeful when MLSE seemed to finally give up on trying to run it themselves (the sports 'learning experience' for the execs, now that they'd had to hand the Raptors and Leafs over to other people) and brought in Klinsmann, but the reality is what they did was hire a company called Soccer Solutions that lists Klinsmann as one of its principals and which calls itself on its website: "a sports marketing and business development company that is committed to helping its clients be successful through soccer related activities."

http://www.soccersolutions.com/

Who knows, maybe they're a terrific company but it doesn't sound like what was needed for TFC.

Roogsy
05-07-2012, 10:11 AM
Is it time the fans (and hopefully the supporters) take the initiative and take our concerns directly to the new owners???

I think it's time we bypass TFC management and executive and head straight for MLSE's new owners.

jabbronies
05-07-2012, 10:23 AM
Is it time the fans (and hopefully the supporters) take the initiative and take our concerns directly to the new owners???

I think it's time we bypass TFC management and executive and head straight for MLSE's new owners.

This may be the logical next step.
However, we'd have to see how involved this new management is with the team. Will they be willing to step in and do something or are the of the mind that the situation is being handled by the people currently managing the team. The latter suggests they only care about the revenues and since those are doing well, there is no need for them to step in.

At the end of the day - Rogers and Bell are just as bad a MLSE in the make money first mentality.

Roogsy
05-07-2012, 10:23 AM
That also means that those of us who sided against DeRo, like myself, during the blowup with the club were also wrong, and I freely admit this, Roogsy. Trading TFC's best player away, who wanted to finish his career in his home town, and who still has a love for Toronto and wants our club not to be the laughing stock of MLS will always be a stain on Tom Anselmi's career.

I appreciate these words and I take no joy in knowing that you too have been beaten down to this point.

I think I will always be sore about "what could have been" in this city. Not just with this one particular player, but overall with this club. The potential was great. We had legendary stories waiting to be written. But the reality has become that of wasted potential, wasted greatness and overall frustration.

Someone needs to answer for this and their usual practice of throwing out sacrifical lambs like Winter (who is not the fundamental problem with this club) will not fix it.

If Rogers and Bell decide to keep Anselmi on to head up TFC, our suffering will continue for the foreseeable future and that is nauseating thought. :puke:

jabbronies
05-07-2012, 10:30 AM
Something is very wrong at TFC right now. I don't think anyone a year ago envisioned a team being 0-8, with no signs the team is improving, and starting to actually play like they don't care anymore. IMO the team is actually getting worse as weeks go by. I don't think even the early detractors of Winter imagined it would be this bad. They were not convinced it was a good choice for TFC; but this bad??

Issues have to lay at the feet of the people in management who made the decisions on who to hire and how the structure of that team management has been set up. It's clearly not working. They need to change how that group is structured and change the personnel.

I pass by the MLSE box on my way out from my seats and often see Anselmi, Beirne, and others. Usually a quick nod, hello, or chat as I pass by. On my way out this past Saturday I looked over to Anselmi. The only way I can describe the look on his face was tired - or like his pet just died. You can see the strain on their faces. This is the worse case scenario and I think they are at a total loss as to what has transpired. It can't be fun in the TFC offices these days. I'm sure there are a few people looking over their shoulder.

at 0-5 you give the team the benefit of the doubt - multiple factors playing a big role in the teams falters.
However at 0-8-1 something needs to give and I don't think it's the manager right now.

Right now the upper management has failed for 5 years straight and have started on failing for a 6th straight year. This team is really the creation of MLSE and no other ownership group. We've changed managers over and over again, we've changed players over and over again. I think it's time to try something new.

However I don't think we can do it on our own. If we are serious about taking this step then we would need to get Leaf and Raptor fans involved as well no? Is this not a bigger problem than just TFC?

ManUtd4ever
05-07-2012, 10:41 AM
If MLSE has the latitude to hire a permanent replacement for Winter prior to the transfer of ownership, I would like to see the following managerial structure in place moving forward:

Steve Nicol - Manager/Head Coach

Paul Mariner - Assistant Manager

Thomas Rongen - Director Of Player Development

I would maintain the existing coaching staff within all the ranks of the Academy, but otherwise, everyone else is expendable.

Oldtimer
05-07-2012, 10:41 AM
I appreciate these words and I take no joy in knowing that you too have been beaten down to this point.



It didn't look like DeRo was taking too much delight either in saying "I told you so." I'm sure he feels sick looking at this club, and that even overshadows the normal desire of an athlete to prove wrong the club that traded him away.

It's sad when even the Impact feel sorry for us. Only the KKKrew's Bill Archer seem to be delighting in this disaster. Everyone else feels just pity.

Winter's not responsible for taking what looked like a decent paying gig. I hold nothing against him at all.

Oldtimer
05-07-2012, 10:45 AM
at 0-5 you give the team the benefit of the doubt - multiple factors playing a big role in the teams falters.


Exactly, I'm not into blaming the coach for everything. Anyone who has coached themselves knows that the coach only influences things so far. However the locker-room issues convinces me, even more so than 0-8-1.

ryan
05-07-2012, 10:46 AM
However I don't think we can do it on our own. If we are serious about taking this step then we would need to get Leaf and Raptor fans involved as well no? Is this not a bigger problem than just TFC?

You're right. That would be something. All toronto fans unite against the scourge known as MLSE.

Roogsy
05-07-2012, 10:55 AM
It didn't look like DeRo was taking too much delight either in saying "I told you so." I'm sure he feels sick looking at this club, and that even overshadows the normal desire of an athlete to prove wrong the club that traded him away.

It's sad when even the Impact feel sorry for us. Only the KKKrew's Bill Archer seem to be delighting in this disaster. Everyone else feels just pity.

Winter's not responsible for taking what looked like a decent paying gig. I hold nothing against him at all.

DeRo spent the following day after the game (his only rest day) with kids at his clinic. Not with family. Not with business interests. But working with local kids that want to play soccer, many of them underpriviledged that were invited free of cost to work out with him.

If anyone thinks DeRo's ultimate desire isn't to elevate the sport in our city and our country, they're as ignorant as can be. He spent his entire time while playing for Toronto promoting the game for TFC and for the national team without earning a single dollar more. He doesn't even live here anymore and yet continues to do so, not earning a penny on any of the events he runs in this city I might add (in fact, quite the opposite, much of this coming out of his own pocket for those that begrudged him getting a raise).

He knows that the difficulties of Toronto are undoing all the work that everyone involved in soccer in Canada is trying to do and it really bothers him. Aside from personal success with whatever team he plays with...he is a Toronto-boy at heart and so wants TFC to do better. In a way, he is something of a TFC fan, as unbelievable as that sounds. Which is why I identify with him and defend him so fanatically.

I think he would have loved to score on Saturday not to bury us deeper but to point to TFC management the mistake they made. But putting that aside, to this day I have never heard him utter a single bad word about the Toronto fans and in fact I often hear praise and sympathy like we saw in the interview. He still asks me about us and how we are holding up in the face of this torture. And I try to hide my anger at how he still appreciates us and we fail to do the same for him.

Beach_Red
05-07-2012, 10:59 AM
Exactly, I'm not into blaming the coach for everything. Anyone who has coached themselves knows that the coach only influences things so far. However the locker-room issues convinces me, even more so than 0-8-1.

Yes. Holding onto that locker room under these circumstances was probably impossible. Certainly impossible for a rookie coach in this league.

And that's another thing that Anselmi should have known, that after the revolving door of coaches the team has been through they really needed someone with more experience - a steady hand, so to speak. It just seems like a very poor management decision to dump Winter into the middle of this mess.

Like I said before, I'm sure they required the manager of the Real Sports bar they opened to have more experience than they required of their head coach. We don't expect the execs at MLSE to know anything about the game of soccer, but we expect them to know management and from the very beginning with this team they haven't.

Roogsy
05-07-2012, 11:00 AM
If MLSE has the latitude to hire a permanent replacement for Winter prior to the transfer of ownership, I would like to see the following managerial structure in place moving forward:

Steve Nicol - Manager/Head Coach

Paul Mariner - Assistant Manager

Thomas Rongen - Director Of Player Development

I would maintain the existing coaching staff within all the ranks of the Academy, but otherwise, everyone else is expendable.

I like the look of this.

Rongen seems to have a passion for developing youth. Without he pressure of immediate results, he may do a good job. And working with Nicol and Mariner, I don't think TFC will need to depart from the offensive, possession team philosophy we'd all like to see.

Can I put this on my Christmas wishlist? I promise I will be good...

Roogsy
05-07-2012, 11:06 AM
Yes. Holding onto that locker room under these circumstances was probably impossible. Certainly impossible for a rookie coach in this league.

And that's another thing that Anselmi should have known, that after the revolving door of coaches the team has been through they really needed someone with more experience - a steady hand, so to speak. It just seems like a very poor management decision to dump Winter into the middle of this mess.

Like I said before, I'm sure they required the manager of the Real Sports bar they opened to have more experience than they required of their head coach. We don't expect the execs at MLSE to know anything about the game of soccer, but we expect them to know management and from the very beginning with this team they haven't.



Thank


You.

As someone who has been in management for years, it is truly mindblowing that basic Human Resource recruitement practices are applied for their Real Sports Bar property and yet those same practices were thrown out the window for a much larger line of of business! It is truly a mindfart!

tfcleeds
05-07-2012, 11:10 AM
I appreciate these words and I take no joy in knowing that you too have been beaten down to this point.I think I will always be sore about "what could have been" in this city. Not just with this one particular player, but overall with this club. The potential was great. We had legendary stories waiting to be written. But the reality has become that of wasted potential, wasted greatness and overall frustration.Someone needs to answer for this and their usual practice of throwing out sacrifical lambs like Winter (who is not the fundamental problem with this club) will not fix it.If Rogers and Bell decide to keep Anselmi on to head up TFC, our suffering will continue for the foreseeable future and that is nauseating thought. :puke:Someday, I really wish someone with a lot of inside info would write a book about the first 6 years of TFC history. A tell-all expose if you will. This club could be a Harvard Business School case study on exactly how NOT to do things. So much promise unfulfilled. So much initial fan enthusiasm gone down the crapper because of years of broken promises. This club could have redefined success in the Toronto sports market if it had been run properly since day 1 - instead, MLSE through it's ineptitude has served to take the pent up demand that existed for professional soccer in this city for so many years, and just milked it for all it's worth. I just think it's tragic what could have been had we had a different executive team here from the very outset.

trane
05-07-2012, 11:11 AM
If someone does not get fired this week, this organization is more fucked then I thought.

Canary10
05-07-2012, 11:16 AM
^ It's really hard to believe no one has.

trane
05-07-2012, 11:17 AM
^ I am almost speechless at this point, at the whole TFC experience.

Canary10
05-07-2012, 11:21 AM
If MLSE had any balls they'd have done it right after Saturday's game. The fact this is creeping along is yet more mismanagement from them. If Winter did indeed have 4 games to turn it around, we're now at one draw and two losses. What possibly can be the result in the last game that saves him? 10-0?

trane
05-07-2012, 11:26 AM
^ There is not saving. This is a new low for this "club", at every level.


And just to add salt to the wound, at those supporting MLSE/Winter, I am not sure if you all noticed by Montreal won over the weekend. 3 wins, one of them on the road, and they are working on a striker that may be a difference maker.

Beach_Red
05-07-2012, 11:26 AM
The article in Saturday's Star about Anselmi was very telling - it said he had the power to fire Winter - but needed approval from the board of directors. I wish they'd televise the meeting where he goes in and says he needs more money to hire yet another coach...

ManUtd4ever
05-07-2012, 11:36 AM
The article in Saturday's Star about Anselmi was very telling - it said he had the power to fire Winter - but needed approval from the board of directors. I wish they'd televise the meeting where he goes in and says he needs more money to hire yet another coach...

Perhaps Tom should relay to the Board Of Governors that the amount of money spent on Winter's buyout and subsequent replacement will pale in comparison to the amount of revenue this franchise will lose next season if it continues on it's current trajectory.

trane
05-07-2012, 11:37 AM
Have you read "How to strangle the goose that lay the golden egg" by Tom Anselmi.

Just One Man
05-07-2012, 11:45 AM
All TFC really had to do was not be offensively terrible and MLSE would have basically been in possession of a winning "cash for life" lottery ticket.

They couldn't even build a team that was just bad. They built the worst team ever in life.

Suds
05-07-2012, 12:06 PM
All TFC really had to do was not be offensively terrible and MLSE would have basically been in possession of a winning "cash for life" lottery ticket.

They couldn't even build a team that was just bad. They built the worst team ever in life.

And this after implementing their plan to make things right. Hiring consultants, attempts to bring in "soccer people" with knowledge, to deliver a good product to fans after 5 years of hell. That whole process was all about turning TFC around and make it the model for the MLS. What's they've accomplished to date is to actually make things worse then they were. We are going in the opposite direction. (investment in the academy aside) The decision makers in the front office must be beside themselves right now.

Oh to have been a fly on the wall during those meetings where the decisions were made to take us on this path. I would have loved to hear what each person's input was.

Canary10
05-07-2012, 12:16 PM
The article in Saturday's Star about Anselmi was very telling - it said he had the power to fire Winter - but needed approval from the board of directors. I wish they'd televise the meeting where he goes in and says he needs more money to hire yet another coach...

I can just see how that plays out.

Ansemli emails the board: "Urgent, we need a meeting. We have some important busines"

Board emails back: "We have our next meeting scheduled in June. Raise it with us then."

Anselmi: "It's kind of urgent. We're 0-8, the manager has to be fired."

Board: "We have our regularly scheduled meeting in June, raise it then."

Anselmi: "It's really, really urgent. We can't wait that long."

Board: "Bring it to our next meeting in June."

Ad nauseum.....(btw, a Globe article a few months ago said that the board had to be given presentations on and approve all Leafs trades on TRADE DEADLINE DAY!!).

Couchy81
05-07-2012, 12:31 PM
So these people have been responsible for our teams... fans... not professionals.... just you know, regular old sports fans with business degrees.... http://www.mlse.com/inside_mlse/board_of_directors.aspx

YIKES!

Makes me think that Ton Anselmi would get better results for our team with approval from the smartest posters on our message board instead of that board of directors

Suds
05-07-2012, 12:40 PM
So these people have been responsible for our teams... fans... not professionals.... just you know, regular old sports fans with business degrees.... http://www.mlse.com/inside_mlse/board_of_directors.aspx

YIKES!


Taken from Inside MLSE's Culture web page:

How do you describe what it’s like to work for the best sports and entertainment company? We Play To WIN every day through our Vision and Values, and as passionate, dedicated leaders. We work hard. We are all passionate about what we do. We have pride in our Company, our Brands, in ourselves, and each other. We strive to achieve top performance.

We also like to have fun!

Here are some more aspects of the MLSE Culture…

Town Hall, Awards, Theme Days and fun events-Taste of the ACC, Annual Dodgeball Classic, Holiday Hoopla, "Best Damn Cookie" Contest and Bake Sale for Team Up!, MLSE Rockstar contest, Community & Volunteerism-Team Up!, Golf Tournament, Working for and with great People everyday.

And let’s face it, Sports and Entertainment is a pretty great industry to be in!

Oddly, nothing about winning teams, games, or delivering for fans/customers ...

Maybe they'll get us some of those Best Damn Cookies for next game.

Parkdale
05-07-2012, 12:45 PM
Sorry, but I call bullshit on this. I was there for the initial discussions in 2006 on Simon's board, before we were even called the RPB, and we chose 112 ourselves because we thought that the group would be small, and we could all congregate there together. Paul B. did not in any way decide where we would go.

Same thing goes for U-Sector, which numbered max 20 or so at that time in 2006. They discussed various areas, including behind the net, but decided on 113 because the net would block their displays.


When I get some time I'll dig up some of the old posts on U-Sector if they aren't gone. I was also there, but on the U-Sector board. Think I had like two posts, ah those were the days.

If you were posting on the Usector board durring that time, then you might remember how it all came to be.

Originally Usector was interested in having section 115 right behind the net. I snuck into the stadium while it was under construction and took pictures of where the seats and sections would be. You could see from my photos that there was a large handicap section in the front of 115, and it would be a less than ideal location for 'front row' supporters. The Usector guys weighed their options, and picked section 113. The earliest of the Red Patch Boys decided to take section 112 as we were the smaller group (like Oldtimer explained).

anyway, it's all ancient history now, but it's important that it's not rewritten or revised into something that isn't accurate.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mike24k/bmo_field/bnss_07.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mike24k/bmo_field/c06.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mike24k/bmo_field/c07.jpg

^ some of those early flicks

Just One Man
05-07-2012, 12:50 PM
Taken from Inside MLSE's Culture web page:


Oddly, nothing about winning teams, games, or delivering for fans/customers ...

Maybe they'll get us some of those Best Damn Cookies for next game.

I get the impression that anybody employed by MLSE is having too good a time living it up to be concerned with something as trivial as the results of a sports team. Who has time for that with all the dodgeball, and golf, and cookies and free tickets they're getting?

Canary10
05-07-2012, 12:52 PM
Hmm, Mel Lastman's son is on their board. How could anything possibly go wrong?

Oldtimer
05-07-2012, 12:53 PM
If you were posting on the Usector board durring that time, then you might remember how it all came to be.

That's right, I had forgotten that Parkdale was to blame! :D

I'd also forgotten the handicap seating issue... but you brought it all back.

Anyway, the point is that ML$E has never dictated to us supporters where we sit or what we do. We do our own thing. It's important to remember that.

Suds
05-07-2012, 12:55 PM
Hmm, Mel Lastman's son is on their board. How could anything possibly go wrong?

maybe he will let me get my season seats next year with no money down and no payments for 18 months??

tfcleeds
05-07-2012, 12:56 PM
Taken from Inside MLSE's Culture web page:Oddly, nothing about winning teams, games, or delivering for fans/customers ...Maybe they'll get us some of those Best Damn Cookies for next game.LOL, that would make a great banner. Something along the lines of: "MLSE - their teams can't win, but damn, their cookies are sure good!"

Canary10
05-07-2012, 01:00 PM
maybe he will let me get my season seats next year with no money down and no payments for 18 months??

Paul Mariner to TFC Board during latest presentation to MLSE board on player signings: "We're thinking of scouting and signing more players from South America."

Dale Lastman: South America! How do you think those voodoo pot-boilers would fare in this physical MLS?!"

Paul Mariner: "Mr. Lastman sir, I think you may be thinking Africans. South American is another continent."

Dale Lastman: "Oh, right, carry on."

Pookie
05-07-2012, 01:00 PM
ahhh MLSE Dodgeball, I can see it now:

http://moviesmedia.ign.com/movies/image/dodgeball-purplecobras_1087260609.jpg

Parkdale
05-07-2012, 01:30 PM
That's right, I had forgotten that Parkdale was to blame!




haha... I get blamed for everything!

Oldtimer
05-07-2012, 01:32 PM
At least Peddie is on his way out. Remember when he announced this?:



"We will pretty soon announce an internationally experienced coach. He and our scouts will then travel to Europe to check on Canadian players. We plan to sign seven or eight Canadians for our 18-man squad. They will play together in 32 league matches and could form the basis of a strong Canadian national team. That team, then, could work on improving our (soccer) reputation."

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/Gross/2006/08/20/1766622-sun.html

The "internationally experienced" coach was Mo.

Oldtimer
05-07-2012, 01:33 PM
haha... I get blamed for everything!

DEAL WITH IT!!! :lol:

Beach_Red
05-07-2012, 01:43 PM
At least Peddie is on his way out. Remember when he announced this?:



http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/Gross/2006/08/20/1766622-sun.html

The "internationally experienced" coach was Mo.

So, from the every beginning this organization made promises they didn't keep. What happened, did the "internationally experienced" coaches want too much money? Too long a contract? Too much control over the team?

Why couldn't this company just do what it said it was going to do?

trane
05-07-2012, 02:34 PM
READ this shit, please. NOTHING ABOUT WINNING, it is all about atmosphere and sold out stadiums. "Authentic" experience, my ass if this was an authentic experience, they would have a fucking riot on their hands.

http://www.mlse.com/assets/1/Page/yourteams_tfc.png


The fuckers even talk about chat rooms. FUCK THEM.

Whoop
05-07-2012, 02:37 PM
If you're watching/following the Blackburn-Wigan match this afternoon, it appears that Blackburn supporters are none too happy.

Apparently stewards are taking down anti-management banners.

But a chicken made it onto the pitch.

http://a.yfrog.com/img619/1020/z0nlu.jpg

Canary10
05-07-2012, 02:41 PM
Didn't know exactly where to post this, but Blackburn fans are using some clever protest techniques, from a chicken on the pitch to a plane carrying a banner extolling Kean's virtues signed Burnley fans.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2012/5/7/1336418894787/Blackburn-Rovers-chicken-008.jpg

Canary10
05-07-2012, 02:42 PM
Ha Whoop, too funny. Brilliant minds think alike.

ManUtd4ever
05-07-2012, 02:55 PM
I like the look of this.

Rongen seems to have a passion for developing youth. Without he pressure of immediate results, he may do a good job. And working with Nicol and Mariner, I don't think TFC will need to depart from the offensive, possession team philosophy we'd all like to see.

Can I put this on my Christmas wishlist? I promise I will be good...

Well, according to Nigel Reed's article today, rumors persist that it could very well happen sooner rather than later. I think Steve Nicol would be the most astute hiring in the history of the franchise.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/opinion/2012/05/tfcs-troubles-coming-to-a-head.html


Winter won the Canadian championship in 2011. Losing it on home soil in 2012 would have to be the final straw. In a results-oriented business the team owners would have no choice but to bite the bullet and relieve the polite, likeable Dutchman of his duties.

If the rumour mill is to be believed, Steve Nicol is waiting in the wings should the axe fall. The former New England boss enjoyed a highly successful partnership with TFC director of player development, Paul Mariner during their five years together with the Revs.

The house, once filled with boisterous fun, is still standing. But it is in urgent need of major renovation by a reputable contractor.

RedDevils
05-07-2012, 03:05 PM
Sorry, but I call bullshit on this. I was there for the initial discussions in 2006 on Simon's board, before we were even called the RPB, and we chose 112 ourselves because we thought that the group would be small, and we could all congregate there together. Paul B. did not in any way decide where we would go.


http://i.imgur.com/yOkSh.png

Hope you don't mind, I'll take the words of the RPB pres at that time over yours 6 years later.

And you still haven't told me some things I didn't know about Klinsmann. What part of Klinsmann's resume points to his knowledge of the USSF pyramid and the NCAA? Knowing these two things are key to building a successful MLS squad, IMO.

trane
05-07-2012, 03:11 PM
I had to re-post this, because the leadership of this group, does not want to talk about this, although this is rely not on topic.

The fact that there is no unified voice calling for immediate change, is worrisome. I have to say that I cannot imagine any other group of supporters being this quite overall over such a disastrous start of the year, never mind that our entire history has been shameful.

I waited I thought that Monday would be an explosion of people demanding change, and yet the response is underwhelming. I think Exile may have said it " you get the club you deserve" maybe this is the club that we deserve.


For over five years they have taken our name and our game and made a laughing stock out of it. And yet, here we are. Still not enough anger to force change despite the utter shit that has been TFC.

IF YOU DO NOT GET ORGANIZED AND DECIDE WHAT TO DO ABOUT THIS CRISIS, then this is the sorriest group of supports in the entire world. enough fucking debates, this is silly, so fucking politically correct Torontonian that it is sad, maybe it is my fault, maybe there is this debate in the members only section (its my fault for not renewing) but fuck this is ridiculous, leadership comes out and states lets support the team in the Wednesday game as this is the important thing right now. WE ARE FUCKING SINKING, well we have never floated, and we are debating, its not Winter its Mariner, its not mariner, its the players, its not the players its luck.


HEADS HAVE TO ROLL, the person responsible is Winter [for starters], that goes with his job, if this club is serious, if our supporters are serious they need to call for it, or we will always be fucking shit, as we have always been fucking shit.

Roogsy
05-07-2012, 03:12 PM
Well, according to Nigel Reed's article today, rumors persist that it could very well happen sooner rather than later. I think Steve Nicol would be the most astute hiring in the history of the franchise.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/opinion/2012/05/tfcs-troubles-coming-to-a-head.html

Oh please let this nightmare be over soon!

KRO
05-07-2012, 03:12 PM
I tried to post this in the "This is not Funny anymore" thread but it was closed.

Like you trane I'm amazed that nothing has happened today and that nobody seems to care. This team has sucked the life out of the fans.

Do you think they are waiting until Thursday when the new coach will have 10 days before the next game to scrap "total football" and start playing a system that the players are capable of executing? Or am I delusional?

Roogsy
05-07-2012, 03:13 PM
I had to re-post this, because the leadership of this group, does not want to talk about this, although this is rely not on topic.

The fact that there is no unified voice calling for immediate change, is worrisome. I have to say that I cannot imagine any other group of supporters being this quite overall over such a disastrous start of the year, never mind that our entire history has been shameful.

I waited I thought that Monday would be an explosion of people demanding change, and yet the response is underwhelming. I think Exile may have said it " you get the club you deserve" maybe this is the club that we deserve.


For over five years they have taken our name and our game and made a laughing stock out of it. And yet, here we are. Still not enough anger to force change despite the utter shit that has been TFC.

IF YOU DO NOT GET ORGANIZED AND DECIDE WHAT TO DO ABOUT THIS CRISIS, then this is the sorriest group of supports in the entire world. enough fucking debates, this is silly, so fucking politically correct Torontonian that it is sad, maybe it is my fault, maybe there is this debate in the members only section (its my fault for not renewing) but fuck this is ridiculous, leadership comes out and states lets support the team in the Wednesday game as this is the important thing right now. WE ARE FUCKING SINKING, well we have never floated, and we are debating, its not Winter its Mariner, its not mariner, its the players, its not the players its luck.


HEADS HAVE TO ROLL, the person responsible is Winter [for starters], that goes with his job, if this club is serious, if our supporters are serious they need to call for it, or we will always be fucking shit, as we have always been fucking shit.





You know where I stand with this.

trane
05-07-2012, 03:14 PM
^I know but there is so few of us, that it is rely frustrating.


I could not have imagined it, that after 0-8, NOTHING.

Roogsy
05-07-2012, 03:14 PM
If you're watching/following the Blackburn-Wigan match this afternoon, it appears that Blackburn supporters are none too happy.

Apparently stewards are taking down anti-management banners.

But a chicken made it onto the pitch.

http://a.yfrog.com/img619/1020/z0nlu.jpg

:lol:

How'd they get a chicken in the stadium?

Man, these people are creative. Like the Scooter episode in Italy was it?

Whoop
05-07-2012, 03:17 PM
Now a supporter got onto the pitch and threw his season ticket at the coach.

trane
05-07-2012, 03:22 PM
^ Nice.


Scooter was San Siro, Inter I think.

Greatest Ripoff
05-07-2012, 03:27 PM
If MLSE has the latitude to hire a permanent replacement for Winter prior to the transfer of ownership, I would like to see the following managerial structure in place moving forward:

Steve Nicol - Manager/Head Coach

Paul Mariner - Assistant Manager

Thomas Rongen - Director Of Player Development

I would maintain the existing coaching staff within all the ranks of the Academy, but otherwise, everyone else is expendable.

How can anyone back Mariner? When Winter goes, Mariner has to as well. How can he share no blame with what is going on?

Canary10
05-07-2012, 03:28 PM
How much does a plane and banner cost? (Banner says "In Venky's we trust - Burnley").

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2012/5/7/1336417409267/Burnley-fans-banner-at-Bl-008.jpg

tfcleeds
05-07-2012, 03:28 PM
I agree with Phil that for now, our efforts should be to bring our best on Wed. (despite the fact I can't be there, I will be cheering on the boys from afar). However, after that match, I really think we should be directing more efforts to some kind of protest against Anselmi and the rest of the FO in advance of the completion of the sale of Teachers' majority stake to Bell/Rogers. How effective it could be I don't know, but surely this is a great opportunity to plant seeds of doubt in Belogers mind about the current executive team. I don't think it has to be a given that Belogers will keep the status quo. If we don't perform some kind of action, we could be stuck with these guys for another 5 years.

Canary10
05-07-2012, 03:29 PM
How can anyone back Mariner? When Winter goes, Mariner has to as well. How can he share no blame with what is going on?


Cochrane also.

trane
05-07-2012, 03:33 PM
I agree with Phil that for now, our efforts should be to bring our best on Wed. (despite the fact I can't be there, I will be cheering on the boys from afar). However, after that match, I really think we should be directing more efforts to some kind of protest against Anselmi and the rest of the FO in advance of the completion of the sale of Teachers' majority stake to Bell/Rogers. How effective it could be I don't know, but surely this is a great opportunity to plant seeds of doubt in Belogers mind about the current executive team. I don't think it has to be a given that Belogers will keep the status quo. If we don't perform some kind of action, we could be stuck with these guys for another 5 years.


I am all for group unity, but right now I am not with the group, and I want them to hit bottom, so that we can start our twelve step program to recovery. If 0-8 is not rock fucking bottom, then maybe get knocked out of CL is. We need it.

Greatest Ripoff
05-07-2012, 03:40 PM
And for the people who want Nicol, why is New England playing so much better without him this year? Can't Toronto do better than Nicol?

Oldtimer
05-07-2012, 03:45 PM
http://i.imgur.com/yOkSh.png

Hope you don't mind, I'll take the words of the RPB pres at that time over yours 6 years later.



So Paul B. wanted all the supporters to sit together. That was after we had decided on 112.

DavydMT
05-07-2012, 03:45 PM
:lol:

How'd they get a chicken in the stadium?

Man, these people are creative. Like the Scooter episode in Italy was it?

Collection of strange stuff thrown on the football pitch!
http://www.ultras-tifo.net/news/244-thrown-on-the-pitch.html

http://www.ultras-tifo.net/images/stories/news/2010/thrown-football-pitch/10.jpg

http://www.ultras-tifo.net/images/stories/news/2010/thrown-football-pitch/20.jpg

http://www.ultras-tifo.net/images/stories/news/2010/thrown-football-pitch/40.jpg

jabbronies
05-07-2012, 03:45 PM
I agree with Phil that for now, our efforts should be to bring our best on Wed. (despite the fact I can't be there, I will be cheering on the boys from afar). However, after that match, I really think we should be directing more efforts to some kind of protest against Anselmi and the rest of the FO in advance of the completion of the sale of Teachers' majority stake to Bell/Rogers. How effective it could be I don't know, but surely this is a great opportunity to plant seeds of doubt in Belogers mind about the current executive team. I don't think it has to be a given that Belogers will keep the status quo. If we don't perform some kind of action, we could be stuck with these guys for another 5 years.

I like this idea. We support the boys in the stadium, but take out displeasure after the game to the main entrance. The impact of having hundreds of supporters outside the gate is much more dramatic than doing something in the stadium.

Beach_Red
05-07-2012, 03:46 PM
And for the people who want Nicol, why is New England playing so much better without him this year? Can't Toronto do better than Nicol?

At this point the team just needs stability - someone who knows MLS and has coached in the league for a few years. Whoever comes in to a 0-8 team is likely going to be an interim, just to get things settled down and to stop the bleeding.

Canary10
05-07-2012, 03:49 PM
And for the people who want Nicol, why is New England playing so much better without him this year? Can't Toronto do better than Nicol?

Also a guy who got continuously worse results over the last half decade of his career at New England.

Greatest Ripoff
05-07-2012, 03:54 PM
At this point the team just needs stability - someone who knows MLS and has coached in the league for a few years. Whoever comes in to a 0-8 team is likely going to be an interim, just to get things settled down and to stop the bleeding.


Yes the team needs stability, so why hire an interim coach from outside of the organization to replace him with a full time coach in a few months? Just get full time replacement now. I just don't see any reason to give it to Nicol and include Mariner. What has Mariner done to improve the current situation

jabbronies
05-07-2012, 03:54 PM
At this point the team just needs stability - someone who knows MLS and has coached in the league for a few years. Whoever comes in to a 0-8 team is likely going to be an interim, just to get things settled down and to stop the bleeding.

We need to be careful with this type of thinking. That's is exactly how we got both Mo and Preki.

Beach_Red
05-07-2012, 04:05 PM
Yes the team needs stability, so why hire an interim coach from outside of the organization to replace him with a full time coach in a few months? Just get full time replacement now. I just don't see any reason to give it to Nicol and include Mariner. What has Mariner done to improve the current situation

Unless they've been looking for a while and have someone in mind, why hire a long-term cach out of the candidates who happen to be out of contract now?

Canary10
05-07-2012, 04:06 PM
We need someone that can better implement the attacking game we're built for, and has better experience and knowledge of MLS and the North American game. Caleb Porter is high on my list.

RedDevils
05-07-2012, 04:09 PM
We need to be careful with this type of thinking. That's is exactly how we got both Mo and Preki.

We need to be careful with the type of thinking we used last time. That's exactly how you get Gullit and Winter. And 0-8.

TorontoGooner
05-07-2012, 04:32 PM
Afternoon all,

Talk around here at the moment is pretty much centered on one thing. We all have our opinions, and we all have a love for the club, the one thing I don't think we have right now, however, is a unity in how to get things sorted out.

Coming on to an internet forum and venting is a great thing, however, it achieves very little. We can come on here, all claim to be the master of football (I know for one I think I am), but it actually achieves very little. I think we have all started a culture of whinging and not doing anything about it. Watching Blackburn as they went down earlier, I noticed the raw, genuine passion of the fans as they showed their anguish towards the manager and the board. However, the players still did a lap of honour at the end to say thanks for the support. It shows that you can be angry at the game and not offend the playing staff. I wish we had a bit more passion like this.

Constant whinging and back biting on here is not helping, people are sick of the situation already. So how about on Wednesday night we show a bit more of what we're truly feeling the way of banners, chants, flags, anything, showing our disgust at the MLSE and/or the coaching staff. I really truly believe that don't know the half of what we are feeling. It's easy to say they don't care, but in all honesty I don't think they know.

The players are sick, we are sick. So let's stop this shit and show the rest that we are pissed off and demand a change. No more arguments on here, we're all in this together.

This will probably get shot down, and if it does, it would come as little surprise. All people do on here at times is hide behind their keyboards and try and gain the moral highground. I don;t want that, I want to stand with my fellow TFC supporters and say enough is enough.

nickio
05-07-2012, 05:30 PM
I'm at a deep contradiction with this team, and hopelessly depressed with TFC:

I didn't want this losing streak, because I didn't want Winter to go (NOT because I thought he was a good coach, but because what he did with our Youth and his idea for the system), But:

-I've completely lost believe in Winter not long ago

-I just wouldn't be able to care for the club WHEN some other coach, with a different system, comes in.

-I don't like defensive 4-4-2, hoofing up the ball to the strikers- even if means ugly Wins; and I wouldn't want to support any more Barrets or Cunninghams

-I don't WANT to go through another coaching, system change: enough is enough

-Winter, at least, should obviously go

Perhaps if we could get a proven (experienced) 4-3-3 coach to come in, I could be optimistic. But that's unlikely and also questionable whether it would work.

Things are pretty depressing

Roogsy
05-07-2012, 06:13 PM
I don't get why 4-3-3 is the saviour of football systems. You guys do realize LA has won the Supporters Shield 2 seasons in a row and an MLS Cup with a 4-4-2?

The key isn't the style or system...it's playing your particular style effectively.

nickio
05-07-2012, 06:23 PM
I don't get why 4-3-3 is the saviour of football systems. You guys do realize LA has won the Supporters Shield 2 seasons in a row and an MLS Cup with a 4-4-2?

The key isn't the style or system...it's playing your particular style effectively.

I couldn't agree more with you, and I'm not saying styles determine the result or that one is better than the other. But to an extent, it's a preference (much like Music, cars and so on).

I dont WANT to watch our team play the way that most of MLS teams do. (Having to do with mediocre ability players who really do lack quality on the ball)

I DO want TFC to strive for technical players with strong on-the ball abilities, and I believe that 4-3-3 really does bring out and demand those qualities. It's a preference...

Perhaps that's the reality of MLS, and I realize that it may be unrealistic here. But I don't want to settle for less just because of that.

Yohan
05-07-2012, 06:33 PM
I couldn't agree more with you, and I'm not saying styles determine the result or that one is better than the other. But to an extent, it's a preference (much like Music, cars and so on).

I dont WANT to watch our team play the way that most of MLS teams do. (Having to do with mediocre ability players who really do lack quality on the ball)

I DO want TFC to strive for technical players with strong on-the ball abilities, and I believe that 4-3-3 really does bring out and demand those qualities. It's a preference...

Perhaps that's the reality of MLS, and I realize that it may be unrealistic here. But I don't want to settle for less just because of that.
People need to watch RSL play more often.

Canary10
05-07-2012, 06:36 PM
I don't get why 4-3-3 is the saviour of football systems. You guys do realize LA has won the Supporters Shield 2 seasons in a row and an MLS Cup with a 4-4-2?

The key isn't the style or system...it's playing your particular style effectively.

I think 4-3-3 will win more games in the long run and we're more built for that style of soccer. At the very least a manager that will play an attacking game should be a prerequisite for this job. If we go back to a defence first style we'll be back to square 1. You can play attacking football with different formations thaough for sure. RSL plays a 4-4-2 diamond for example and they're pretty attacking-minded.

jabbronies
05-07-2012, 08:28 PM
The current TFC squad cannot win with 4-4-2. We are not physical enough for it. This team is built for 4-3-3 or similar attacking style.

AL-MO
05-07-2012, 09:50 PM
that's pretty much it. Paul B has been behind some pretty boneheaded mistakes from this team (Real Madrid friendly.....) but he's not responsible for the product on the field. His job isn't to put a winner on the field, it's to make sure the lights are on and the game can go ahead. He's like the manager of a movie theater... don't blame him if the flick is terrible, but the seats are clean and the popcorn is fluffy.

Now for Tom Anselmi.... He should be on the hook for turning 3 of Toronto's teams into basement dwelling losers who are the butt of a national joke.

After 5 + years of this nonsense, everyone is complicit.

AL-MO
05-07-2012, 09:51 PM
The current TFC squad cannot win with 4-4-2. We are not physical enough for it. This team is built for 4-3-3 or similar attacking style.

Which they are failing miserably at.

AL-MO
05-07-2012, 09:54 PM
Sorry, but I call bullshit on this. I was there for the initial discussions in 2006 on Simon's board, before we were even called the RPB, and we chose 112 ourselves because we thought that the group would be small, and we could all congregate there together. Paul B. did not in any way decide where we would go.

Same thing goes for U-Sector, which numbered max 20 or so at that time in 2006. They discussed various areas, including behind the net, but decided on 113 because the net would block their displays.

I personally chose 114 for various reasons that no longer apply, thinking that I could always move my seat later on if I wanted to stand with the "small" group (how wrong I was!).



You don't really know that much about Klinsmann, do you? This post shows that in spades.

I'll admit that AW hasn't worked out, but we don't really know what Klinsmann recommended to Anselmi. For all we know, Winter was his #20 choice, but Anselmi picked Winter for the "total football" (cringe) marketing possibilities. It's unfair to tar Klinsmann with ML$E's incompetence. As far as US Soccer, Klinsmann has a lot of familiarity with what is going on.

Some would say otherwise.

AL-MO
05-07-2012, 10:02 PM
http://i.imgur.com/yoksh.png

hope you don't mind, i'll take the words of the rpb pres at that time over yours 6 years later.

And you still haven't told me some things i didn't know about klinsmann. What part of klinsmann's resume points to his knowledge of the ussf pyramid and the ncaa? Knowing these two things are key to building a successful mls squad, imo.

winner!!!

jabbronies
05-07-2012, 10:11 PM
Which they are failing miserably at.

Not arguing with that.
But at least they look good...at times.

In a 4-4-2, they will look worse than they did against Montreal/DC this past week.

Shakes McQueen
05-07-2012, 10:18 PM
I don't get why 4-3-3 is the saviour of football systems. You guys do realize LA has won the Supporters Shield 2 seasons in a row and an MLS Cup with a 4-4-2?

The key isn't the style or system...it's playing your particular style effectively.

I agree with this. 4-3-3 doesn't have a non-existent monopoly on football success. If you think our current roster is built better for 4-3-3 than anything else, that's fine (though I may question that sentiment after an 0-8 start - we could play a 1-2-7 and still couldn't possibly have less resultsthan we do now).

I think the 4-3-3 is a fine formation, and some good teams all over the place use it, as Jack illustrated earlier in this thread (or was it another one? Can't remember). At the same time, what formation you use comes down to the players you have. A formation in and of itself doesn't win you anything.

- Scott

trane
05-08-2012, 08:52 AM
Which they are failing miserably at.


The whole symplistic analyses that we cannot play the 4-4-2 because we are not physical enough, kills me, and that we cannot fire Winter because we may get worse, and then trying to dictate THAT WE NEED TO HIRE AN ATTACK MINDED coach, most of the worlds great teams are either built on defense first, or at least can defend with the best of the them, after 5 years, or suffering first and foremost because we cannot defend, the great mind of this board are still asking for an offensive system, like we are going to sing Messi, Ronaldo, Kaka and Ibra and score at least 3 goals per game. I am sorry but this is the silliest group of supporters I have ever been around, I love talking footy but when it come to TFC it is becoming painful.

Canary10
05-08-2012, 08:57 AM
^ There are lots of successful teams other than Barcelona who play attacking, possession football. Swansea are the team we should really be modelling after imo. They play our game (or at least the one we are supposed to be playing) with players who are the EPL's equivalent to NASL players.

trane
05-08-2012, 09:00 AM
I agree with this. 4-3-3 doesn't have a non-existent monopoly on football success. If you think our current roster is built better for 4-3-3 than anything else, that's fine (though I may question that sentiment after an 0-8 start - we could play a 1-2-7 and still couldn't possibly have less resultsthan we do now).

I think the 4-3-3 is a fine formation, and some good teams all over the place use it, as Jack illustrated earlier in this thread (or was it another one? Can't remember). At the same time, what formation you use comes down to the players you have. A formation in and of itself doesn't win you anything.

- Scott

Agreed.

There is no one size fits all formation, it is about which formation fits the players you have best, and then executing that formation. Now the 4-3-3 or variants of it is one of the most popular formations currently around, many teams all around Europe use modified versions of it. The issue is not simply about formations. I thing the problem that many on the board have this fascination with the "Dutch football" as if it is the ultimate goal and as if we will be the second coming of Barca if we just play it long enough. Clearly this will not be. We need to build a system that works with the player we have and are likely to get. It may well be a 4-3-3 but it will not be Barca's or Ajax's 4-3-3 it will be our own, and it will change as the season, player and coaches change.

Canary10
05-08-2012, 09:05 AM
I think the big problem isn't so much the formation but the position switching. Half the time people don't seem to know what their role is out there. Our midfield especially tends to either drift upward or backward and we totally lose shape. Position switching is as complicated as it gets. Give everyone out there a distinct position with a distinct role and play a bit more rigid. Get back to the basics of the system, without adding this complicated other layer.

trane
05-08-2012, 09:09 AM
^ There are lots of successful teams other than Barcelona who play attacking, possession football. Swansea are the team we should really be modelling after imo. They play our game (or at least the one we are supposed to be playing) with players who are the EPL's equivalent to NASL players.

Sure, but just because people say a team plays attacking football it does not mean they cannot defend. Every good team has a solid defense and/or is able to hold shape and hold the ball not to allow a great number of chances. Football is a two way game you cannot excel at one and be absolute shite at the other and pretend to achieve anything in this game. As I said not great team does.

Teams do not say should we be attacking or defensive? Teams say well our strength is one or the other, so lets build on our strength, However, we need to address our weakness so that we can be competitive. You can put together three great forwards, how can each score three goals a game , but as long as you are allowing 4 a game you lose. Similarly if you have the greatest back line ever but have not players that can finish you will not get far. However, I will say this it is easier to build a good defensive team and then top it with a couple of attacking players, then put together a collection of great offensive team. [ this league may be the exception as decent CB seems so fucking hard to find]

Suds
05-08-2012, 09:12 AM
I think the big problem isn't so much the formation but the position switching. Half the time people don't seem to know what their role is out there. Our midfield especially tends to either drift upward or backward and we totally lose shape. Position switching is as complicated as it gets. Give everyone out there a distinct position with a distinct role and play a bit more rigid. Get back to the basics of the system, without adding this complicated other layer.

And for me this point does rest solely on the coaching staff. They are clearly not getting through to the players about what their roles are.

If the coaches cannot communicate their game plan and style to the players it really does not matter what formation or style we play.

Canary10
05-08-2012, 09:17 AM
Did anyone watch Bob DeKlerk and Rongen explaining the 4-3-3 at halftime of the RSL game (using Barca players a reference points)? That was what turned the tide a bit for me. If that's how they are explaining things to these guys, no wonder everyone is confused!

trane
05-08-2012, 09:21 AM
^ Basic switches should not be a problem at this point, for example it should be natural for the RWF to drop back to fill the gap left by the RB when the RB comes forward, similarly , the CDM should naturally step back and take the CB position if he comes forward, but anything more complicate should be left alone, and yes if this set of players cannot even to that, then you tell your players to stay put and pass the ball rather then make long runs out of position.

KRO
05-08-2012, 09:30 AM
Finally, some sensible posts. The 'Dutch Experiment' has failed but they just keep on trying.

It reminds me of my favourite definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Yohan
05-08-2012, 09:31 AM
Teams do not say should we be attacking or defensive? Teams say well our strength is one or the other, so lets build on our strength, However, we need to address our weakness so that we can be competitive. You can put together three great forwards, how can each score three goals a game , but as long as you are allowing 4 a game you lose. Similarly if you have the greatest back line ever but have not players that can finish you will not get far. However, I will say this it is easier to build a good defensive team and then top it with a couple of attacking players, then put together a collection of great offensive team. [ this league may be the exception as decent CB seems so fucking hard to find]
You can do it something like Vancouver did, spend about 1 million in cap on 4 good defenders and a GK to get more of an 'instant fix.

Or you can do what a lot of MLS team does and get a group of avg defenders, drill them, build chemistry and in 2nd year of them playing together constantly, you get a good defence. Individually, SJ's defence corp aren't great, but together they've been putting together solid performances. Same can be said for RSL, with exception of Olave, have been playing together for so long that they know how to cover for each other's mistakes. Same with KC, Seattle, Houston (hmmm... a pattern emerging?)

Canary10
05-08-2012, 09:35 AM
I think we've used 12 different backlines this year? Something like that. (read it in a Larson tweet before the last game).

T-boy
05-08-2012, 09:37 AM
I think we've used 12 different backlines this year? Something like that. (read it in a Larson tweet before the last game).

that's definitely an issue. It's quit common for a manager who is under pressure to constantly changing the starting 11 to try and find an answer. Whereas the best thing Winter needs to do is find a constant starting 11 who can get to know each other. The constant changing around of the team isn't helping at all. Winter needs to decide who is best back 4 are, and stick with them for at least 4 games and see if they gel.

Yohan
05-08-2012, 09:42 AM
that's definitely an issue. It's quit common for a manager who is under pressure to constantly changing the starting 11 to try and find an answer. Whereas the best thing Winter needs to do is find a constant starting 11 who can get to know each other. The constant changing around of the team isn't helping at all. Winter needs to decide who is best back 4 are, and stick with them for at least 4 games and see if they gel.
I'd like Winter to stick with Eckersley-Cann-Emory-Morgan.

trane
05-08-2012, 09:45 AM
You can do it something like Vancouver did, spend about 1 million in cap on 4 good defenders and a GK to get more of an 'instant fix.

Or you can do what a lot of MLS team does and get a group of avg defenders, drill them, build chemistry and in 2nd year of them playing together constantly, you get a good defence. Individually, SJ's defence corp aren't great, but together they've been putting together solid performances. Same can be said for RSL, with exception of Olave, have been playing together for so long that they know how to cover for each other's mistakes. Same with KC, Seattle, Houston (hmmm... a pattern emerging?)

I believe defense is about playing well as a unit. Sure when you have better players it is easier, but you can do it with average players if you can coach them well.

T-boy
05-08-2012, 09:48 AM
I'd like Winter to stick with Eckersley-Cann-Emory-Morgan.


Agreed. I'd really like to see Emory be given a good month at CB, and I'd definitely be interested to see him paired with Cann to see if they can build a relationship. The core of any football team is a good relationship between centre backs, and Winter just hasn't given any pairing a chance to gel yet.

I realise that Cann was injured to start with, but even at the start of the season, with Emory, Henry, Aceval and Harden all fit, Winter kept changing the defenders each game.

Canary10
05-08-2012, 09:49 AM
I'd like Winter to stick with Eckersley-Cann-Emory-Morgan.

Yeah, I agree with this. Emory looks to have the speed we've been lacking back there, especially playing the high line. Cann's done better than I expected, although he's been burned on his marking a few times on set pieces.

Yohan
05-08-2012, 09:49 AM
I believe defense is about playing well as a unit. Sure when you have better players it is easier, but you can do it with average players if you can coach them well.

yep. I think Winter is a decent coach when it comes to offence, but organizing defence, he is not good.

Yohan
05-08-2012, 09:54 AM
Yeah, I agree with this. Emory looks to have the speed we've been lacking back there, especially playing the high line. Cann's done better than I expected, although he's been burned on his marking a few times on set pieces.

I just don't think we have a choice. Cann has been brutal when it comes to marking, and has been getting beaten in the air (his supposedly forte). But other than Emory, he's got the best set of tools.
I rate Emory because he's versatile enough to play LB, has a lot of upside with comfortable first touch and decent short passing ability. He's got only an avg pace IMO, and he needs to work on his positioning, but I really think he's got a lot of room to grow and in few years, he might be that commanding CB we've been looking for, TFC version of Tim Ream. Partnership of Henry-Emory at CB has a lot of potential IMO. I just hope that the supporters stick with Emory long enough to give him that chance.

Oldtimer
05-08-2012, 10:00 AM
So, back to the main topic, who should be whacked, the players + coaches, or the 3 "wise men?" The coaches are just doing what they were brought in to do. The ultimate blame rests on the 3 wise men.

I think we should look at what is happening with Canadian Pacific Railways. There is brewing a massive proxy battle which will likely see the Board CEO and the President turfed out of their jobs in a couple of weeks. CP is the worst run railroad not just in Canada, but by almost any metric in North America. They have constantly underperformed their competitors. It's been noted by commentators that it's really unusual in the cosy corporate halls in Canada where everyone knows everyone that it's rare to actually turf management, but it looks like it's going to happen.

Applied to ML$E, they have underperformed with all their teams except the minor-league Marlies. While the teams have been profitable, even highly so, it's masked the massive opportunity cost that has beset all of their NHL/NBA/MLS teams by missing out on the playoffs. How many endorsements have been missed? How much swag unsold? How much beer undrunk? How much TV revenue lost? Just making the playoffs alone adds to the "buzz" surrounding a team and makes it that much more valuable.

Just about any barely competent can fill orders for corporate seats, for which there are a lot of orders due to so many head offices being situated in Toronto. It takes someone truly smart to make their "product" actually something that real fans want to hang onto.

If Rogers & Bell would realize how much more valuable just the media rights to playoff-bound Leafs/Raptors/TFC would be, they would turf the lot. There is always a chance they may wake up and do that. Anything we can do to help would be a plus.

Beach_Red
05-08-2012, 10:02 AM
yep. I think Winter is a decent coach when it comes to offence, but organizing defence, he is not good.

This team has held the lead for less than two minutes out of nine games. Sure, the defence gets all the blame, but it would be nice to see them playing with a lead.

Beach_Red
05-08-2012, 10:06 AM
If Rogers & Bell would realize how much more valuable just the media rights to playoff-bound Leafs/Raptors/TFC would be, they would turf the lot. There is always a chance they may wake up and do that. Anything we can do to help would be a plus.

Yes, this is likely what will happen. If we go by the recent past, Bell made big changes to the top execs at CTV when they took over last year. It's hard to imagine they will leave things as they are with MLSE.

Yohan
05-08-2012, 10:08 AM
This team has held the lead for less than two minutes out of nine games. Sure, the defence gets all the blame, but it would be nice to see them playing with a lead.

me too. judging generally fluidity and quality of chances created in offence, I do think this is best offence TFC had since its inception. hell, we actually score off of set pieces now. remember how long TFC has gone without a goal off of set pieces?

Roogsy
05-08-2012, 10:08 AM
yep. I think Winter is a decent coach when it comes to offence, but organizing defence, he is not good.

See in my view this does not make a good coach at all.

This isn't Gridiron Football where you have an offensive coordinator, a defensive coordinator and ultimately a head coach that manages the two.

A good footy coach is one that is adept at both elements of the game (even if his strongsuit is one over the other) and being able to fluidly transition between the two elements of the game. Winter cannot do that. He may have a good offensive mind but has not diddly squat on the defensive end other than to proclaim he needs better players.

This is exactly why Winter should have stayed at the youth level. Teaching one element of the game is fine when you are bringing up talent, but coaching a senior team should go to someone with the actual ability to do so.

Canary10
05-08-2012, 10:10 AM
^ Ironic given he was viewed as the world's best defensive midfielder in his day.

Yohan
05-08-2012, 10:14 AM
^ Ironic given he was viewed as the world's best defensive midfielder in his day.

Preki was one of best strikers to ever play for MLS lol

Oldtimer
05-08-2012, 10:14 AM
^^ Preki was noted for exciting attacking football when he was a player.

EDIT: Yohan mentioned that first.

trane
05-08-2012, 10:15 AM
^ realy. I remember Winter being viewed as a top CDM, but the best? I do not remember that.

Canary10
05-08-2012, 10:15 AM
"Preki was one of best strikers to ever play for MLS lol "

Ha! True.

Canary10
05-08-2012, 10:15 AM
^ realy. I rember being viewed as a top CDM, but the best? I do not remember that.

He was in that conversation.

joeyjones
05-08-2012, 10:17 AM
^^ Preki was noted for exciting attacking football when he was a player.

ironically, Preki and De Ro could be considered the best MLS players of all time, def in the top 5....

Yohan
05-08-2012, 10:20 AM
ironically, Preki and De Ro could be considered the best MLS players of all time, def in the top 5....
Probably in that conversation, but likely not. top 10 for sure

Roogsy
05-08-2012, 10:22 AM
Does this mean DeRo will become the best defensive-minded Coach in MLS one day? :lol:

Oldtimer
05-08-2012, 10:24 AM
Does this mean DeRo will become the best defensive-minded Coach in MLS one day? :lol:

Of course!!! :lol:

trane
05-08-2012, 10:26 AM
Does this mean DeRo will become the best defensive-minded Coach in MLS one day? :lol:


Are you saying hire De Ro to manage TFC?

Beach_Red
05-08-2012, 10:28 AM
"Preki was one of best strikers to ever play for MLS lol "

Ha! True.

And, (sorry for the hockey reference, but) Jacques Lemaire. It is possible for players to use very different coaching styles from the way they played.

Canary10
05-08-2012, 10:29 AM
Are you saying hire De Ro to manage TFC?

Only with Preki as Director of Player Development.

trane
05-08-2012, 10:31 AM
^ That would be great.

Canary10
05-08-2012, 10:32 AM
I'm trying to think like MLSE....

Roogsy
05-08-2012, 10:33 AM
Are you saying hire De Ro to manage TFC?

:lol:

Don't do that! That's how rumours start. Somewhere down the line Pookie is going to claim I wanted DeRo as manager!

trane
05-08-2012, 10:40 AM
^ Hold on. You do not?

Huyton
05-08-2012, 10:55 AM
Those who can, do.

Those who can't, teach.

Those who can, can't teach.

Preki and Winter could both "do". As could Mo, in his day.

Yohan
05-08-2012, 11:01 AM
Those who can, do.

Those who can't, teach.

Those who can, can't teach.

Preki and Winter could both "do". As could Mo, in his day.
you do know how many former players turned out to be great managers?

I'm sure Pep Guardiola has something to say

T-boy
05-08-2012, 11:34 AM
you do know how many former players turned out to be great managers?

I'm sure Pep Guardiola has something to say

Really you can never judge a potential manager by his playing record. There are so many poor players that never made it in the game that eventually turned into great managers (Jose Mourinho is the most obvious that comes to mind!).

Equally there are so many fantastic players who have never made it as managers. So being a players and a manager are two different monsters.

How about the new England manager Roy Hodgson? He never played above English Conference level football! Now he's got the biggest management job in England!

Yohan
05-08-2012, 11:47 AM
Really you can never judge a potential manager by his playing record. There are so many poor players that never made it in the game that eventually turned into great managers (Jose Mourinho is the most obvious that comes to mind!).

Equally there are so many fantastic players who have never made it as managers. So being a players and a manager are two different monsters.

How about the new England manager Roy Hodgson? He never played above English Conference level football! Now he's got the biggest management job in England!
My point exactly. being a player does give you an insight into player managing (been there, done that aspect), but by no means it's an indicator of how well, or how poorly you will be as a manager

BayernTFC
05-08-2012, 12:09 PM
If Rogers & Bell would realize how much more valuable just the media rights to playoff-bound Leafs/Raptors/TFC would be, they would turf the lot. There is always a chance they may wake up and do that.
I think that this is a very interesting point. I happen to believe that TFC is in a much more complicated situation than during previous "crises". The first thing is not to do more harm, imho. Do Rogers & Bell really want the current FO making any major decisions that will affect the future direction of this team? What direction does Rogers & Bell wish to take?

I don't think it's as simple as a difference in opinion over formations. The current soap opera seems to be a battle for hearts and minds over philosophy. Do you find the players who fit the system, or do you build a system around the players you have? Do you focus on developing players and supplement with foreign talent, or use the traditional MLS style of building a backbone of US players and supplement with trades and the draft? Max out on DPs or spread the cap around?

Considering TFC's large investment in the Academy, I thought one of the ideas behind the latest approach was to emulate organizations with a track record of successfully developing talent for club, country and sales to teams in other leagues. Perhaps it was all just a marketing pitch? It does make sense that if you want to use the talent being developed in the academy, then the academy should be playing the system used by the first team, no? If you want to have the option to sell your players, then your players should be developed in such a way where they gain the abilities which teams in other leagues will find useful, no? Do Bell & Rogers want to direct a team with such a model? Do they want changes implemented that may disrupt such an approach? Perhaps not much needs to be sacrificed for greater success within MLS this season? Maybe Winter just isn't the man to successfully coach TFC or implement the greater cultural/systemic approach for the organization?

A corporate structure where management-level employees continually jockey for position while simultaneously trying to cover their backsides is hardly ideal. Obviously Bell & Rogers need to be careful not to buy into something being sold by those only interested in keeping their job(s). I fear that talk of Paul Mariner being involved in any management change, who has been described by others as a competing interest to the current management's approach, would just be a continuation of past problems. MLS and TFC interests do not always align. I got the feeling in the past that TFC has been a destination where useful players get siphoned off to other MLS squads and where troubled contracts get dumped. It would be a shame for TFC to become the MLS version of the Montreal Expos. By the way, has anyone noticed that a whole generation of Canadian youth has grown up without seeing a Canadian NHL team lift the Stanley Cup?

Initial B
05-08-2012, 01:34 PM
^This. Right now I feel all the MLSE properties are waiting to see what direction the new masters will want to take.

Roogsy
05-08-2012, 01:52 PM
From Kurt Larson's article in Canoe.


Since then, the distance between Winter and Mariner appears to have grown, with Dutchman in complete control of the first-team while the more MLS experienced Englishman has taken a back seat with the academy setup.


For those of us that were wondering what Mariner's role with the team has been.

If Larson is accurate and he truly has been relegated to working with the Academy, and Winter is in complete control of the first team, I see no reason to blame Mariner before I blame Winter. That makes no sense whatsoever.

How do we reconcile this with the rumours of interference within the ranks? Is it Cochrane?

Either way, this statement here gives me even more reason to believe a Nicol/Mariner tandem would be exponentially better than the clusterfuck we have now before us.

Larson quoted their record from 04-09:


Under then head coach Steve Nicol and Mariner, the pair guided the New England Revolution to a 63-47-44 league record from 2004-2009.

To put those digits into perspective, under the duo's guidance, the Boston outfit secured points in close to 70% of its league matches.

I'd kill for a record like that right now.

And these are the remaining records of futility, all within reach of this edition of TFC. Are we really going for the trifecta here?




ALL-TIME WORST MLS TEAMS
Other than the “most goals allowed," the following numbers are all post-MLS shootout era (1999) …

LOWEST WINNING %
1. Tampa Bay - 2001, .185
2. Chivas - 2005, .219
3. Salt Lake - 2005, .219
4. New York - 2009, .267
5. D.C. United - 2010, .267

FEWEST WINS - SINGLE SEASON
1. Tampa Bay - 2001, 4
2. Chivas - 2005, 4
Four teams tied with 5 regular season wins

FEWEST POINTS
1. Tampa Bay - 2001, 14 (season cut short due to 9/11)
2. Chivas - 2005, 18
3. Salt Lake - 2005, 20
4. New York - 2009, 21
5. D.C. United - 2010, 22

FEWEST GOALS SCORED
(TFC on pace to score 26 goals in 34 games in 2012)
1. D.C. United - 2010, 21 (30 Games)
2. Toronto - 2007, 25 (30 Games)
3. New York - 2009, 27 (30 Games)

MOST GOALS ALLOWED
(TFC on pace to allow 77 goals in 34 games in 2012)
1. Colorado - 1998, 69
2. Miami - 1998, 68
3. Tampa Bay - 2001, 68

MOST TIMES SHUTOUT IN A SEASON
(TFC on pace to be shutout 17 times in 34 games in 2012)
1. D.C. United - 2010, 17
2. Toronto - 2007, 15
3. New York - 2009, 15


http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/TorontoFC/2012/05/07/19728991.html

Beach_Red
05-08-2012, 02:19 PM
A corporate structure where management-level employees continually jockey for position while simultaneously trying to cover their backsides is hardly ideal. Obviously Bell & Rogers need to be careful not to buy into something being sold by those only interested in keeping their job(s). I fear that talk of Paul Mariner being involved in any management change, who has been described by others as a competing interest to the current management's approach, would just be a continuation of past problems. MLS and TFC interests do not always align. I got the feeling in the past that TFC has been a destination where useful players get siphoned off to other MLS squads and where troubled contracts get dumped. It would be a shame for TFC to become the MLS version of the Montreal Expos. By the way, has anyone noticed that a whole generation of Canadian youth has grown up without seeing a Canadian NHL team lift the Stanley Cup?

Yes, this is true, that kind of CYA corporate structure isn't good.

As for the Stanley Cup, at least a whole generation of Canadian youth has grown up watching Canadians lift the Cup - as players, coaches and GMs, just not while representing Canadian cities. Could be a sign the problem is somewhere higher up the structure?

brad
05-08-2012, 02:29 PM
you do know how many former players turned out to be great managers?

I'm sure Pep Guardiola has something to say

I see your Pep, and raise you a Maradona:)

The big advantage I think is that they understand the psychology of the players and the players can better relate to them - at least that is what I have heard. You still need to have the aptitude on top of that though to actually manage. I don't think anything about being a player in itself gives you a leg up.

Oldtimer
05-08-2012, 02:35 PM
How do we reconcile this with the rumours of interference within the ranks? Is it Cochrane?


I think various sources have been hinting at Cochrane's interference for some time. Duane Rollins came right out and said it in a recent CSN blog:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?3168-A-growing-disconnect


The working relationship between Winter and Cochrane have continue to deteriorate since that time. As previously reported on CSN, a divide between “MLS pragmatists” and “4-3-3 idealists” has been brewing for a while. It's been further suggested that Cochrane has openly blocked Winter from other signings during that period but did not elaborate on the details.

BayernTFC
05-08-2012, 02:40 PM
For those of us that were wondering what Mariner's role with the team has been.

If Larson is accurate and he truly has been relegated to working with the Academy
Wasn't Mariner brought in to help Winter with the draft and with identifying MLS talent? When was he relegated to the Academy level? What about the trades from last year? Did Mariner suggest Danleigh Borman and Tony Tchani for Dero? How about Andy Iro? Dasan Robinson? Kyle Davies?


and Winter is in complete control of the first team, I see no reason to blame Mariner before I blame Winter.
The buck stops with Winter, but does that completely excuse Mariner? Weren't there rumours of a rift between Dasovic and Preki? Is the FO just creating the conditions for competing interests to give them cover? If you are going to clean house, then clean house. Mariner included.


How do we reconcile this with the rumours of interference within the ranks? Is it Cochrane?Why is he still here? What does he do? Rumours aren't proof but, if you are going to clean house, then clean house. Cochrane included.


Either way, this statement here gives me even more reason to believe a Nicol/Mariner tandem would be exponentially better than the clusterfuck we have now before us.

Larson quoted their record from 04-09:



I'd kill for a record like that right now.
Oh, I see. You would like to see Mariner and Nicol take over specifically. What do Rogers & Bell want? Does that tandem fit into TFC's current structure or does it mean another change in direction and a rebuild will be needed? Why aren't Nicol and Mariner still with NE? Is MLS from 2004-2009 the same as today's MLS?

Pookie
05-08-2012, 02:40 PM
:lol:

Don't do that! That's how rumours start. Somewhere down the line Pookie is going to claim I wanted DeRo as manager!

:)

Wouldnt that be a pickle for you if they got off to a bad start? Might be worth it just to see that.

Pookie
05-08-2012, 02:45 PM
I think various sources have been hinting at Cochrane's interference for some time. Duane Rollins came right out and said it in a recent CSN blog:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?3168-A-growing-disconnect

Pretty sad when you have oars pulling in different directions. Pretty soon it becomes less about the end goal, Championship, and more about being right and individual agendas.

Though considering Cohrane used to work for the CSA, I guess it isn't that surprising.

If he has backers on the inside, I wonder if they wear "Don't block the Coch" t-shirts

Beach_Red
05-08-2012, 02:47 PM
Oh, I see. You would like to see Mariner and Nicol take over specifically. What do Rogers & Bell want? Does that tandem fit into TFC's current structure or does it mean another change in direction and a rebuild will be needed? Why aren't Nicol and Mariner still with NE? Is MLS from 2004-2009 the same as today's MLS?

With any luck, Bell/Rogers will appoint a team president and then not get involved at the coach level.

Pookie
05-08-2012, 02:52 PM
Don't forget that Tannenbuam has a 25% swing vote in all this. Going to be an interesting org chart when all is said and done

BayernTFC
05-08-2012, 03:01 PM
As for the Stanley Cup, at least a whole generation of Canadian youth has grown up watching Canadians lift the Cup - as players, coaches and GMs, just not while representing Canadian cities.
Wow! I can't believe what I'm reading. It's not the same, but you're right. Why even bother with Canadian teams at all? Just send our kids down to US arenas to watch "real" teams win. Can you tell me, why do you cheer for TFC? I guess you'd be happy just to watch DeRo raise the MLS cup or win the CCL with DC United? I cannot believe what I'm reading.


Could be a sign the problem is somewhere higher up the structure?
Perhaps...
http://media.legrandclub.rds.ca/images/userpics/posts/677/388/115603_large.png

BayernTFC
05-08-2012, 03:06 PM
With any luck, Bell/Rogers will appoint a team president and then not get involved at the coach level.
Ideally.

Beach_Red
05-08-2012, 03:27 PM
Wow! I can't believe what I'm reading. It's not the same, but you're right. Why even bother with Canadian teams at all? Just send our kids down to US arenas to watch "real" teams win. Can you tell me, why do you cheer for TFC? I guess you'd be happy just to watch DeRo raise the MLS cup or win the CCL with DC United? I cannot believe what I'm reading.



Sure, I'd like Toronto teams to win (I don't rally care about other Canadian city's teams) but clearly the problem isn't that Canada can't develop players, coaches and managers (at least in hockey). So, what you're hearing is that we don't have any businesses that can compere in an open market without protection (MLSE and Bell are both masters at keeping foreign competition out, but I'm hoping Bell are better owners than MLSE was).

I cheer for TFC because it's my team in my city but I'm not blind to the fact that it's owners are uncompetitive in everything they do.

Ajax TFC
05-08-2012, 03:49 PM
I see your Pep, and raise you a Maradona:)
I raise you a Johan Cruijff :D

Greatest Ripoff
05-08-2012, 04:09 PM
Wasn't Mariner brought in to help Winter with the draft and with identifying MLS talent? When was he relegated to the Academy level? What about the trades from last year? Did Mariner suggest Danleigh Borman and Tony Tchani for Dero? How about Andy Iro? Dasan Robinson? Kyle Davies?

This is why I don't want Mariner. What has he done to improve the situation? Also, what has Nicol done of late and why is New England a better team so far this year? What has change in NE from last year besides Nicol leaving?

BayernTFC
05-08-2012, 04:21 PM
Beach_Red,

MLSE has huge pockets. They are not outspent. But, you just keep believing that it's all about uncompetitive Canadian businesses if it makes you feel better. The Vancouver Canucks, Edmonton Oilers, Calgary Flames, Winnipeg Jets, Ottawa Senators, and Montreal Canadiens all have owners too. 19 years. 0 Stanley Cups.


but I'm not blind to the fact that it's owners are uncompetitive in everything they do.
TFC is now owned by Rogers & Bell. I wish them the best of luck. For TFC's sake.

Roogsy
05-08-2012, 04:37 PM
In an effort to save the mods from having a brain aneurism over having more threads on discussing Winter's future, I brought this quote over here from the Montreal pregame thread:


THERE IS NOT VALID REASON TO KEEP THIS MANAGER. HE HAS BEEN AT THE HEAD OF THIS TEAM FOR 58 games and he has only won 14. That we have had a poor record to hire managers, so we should keep one that is a poor hire, makes no logical sense.

I would just like to put the record straight where we are in terms of number of games and his record because it's not fair to understate or overstate his record:

2011 MLS, 34 Games, 6-15-13 for 33 points, 0.97 ppg.
NCC/CCL, 16 games 9-4-3, 31 points, 1.94 ppg.
2012 MLS, 8 games, 0-0-8, 0 points, 0.00 ppg.

Total: 58 games, 15-19-24, 64 points, 1.10 ppg.

What jumps out at me is his horrendous league record. Over 42 games, he has a 6-15-21 record for 33 points and a 0.79 ppg. That would have put us in last place even in 2007, our inaurugal season. It would have put us in last or 2nd last place in any of the last 5 seasons.

What does that tell me? It says if we didn't have minnows like FC Edmonton and Real Esteli to beat up on to improve our record, we would have a ppg of under 1.00 over 58 games. With a multi-million dollar roster, that is inexcusable.

Laurignano
05-08-2012, 04:46 PM
In an effort to save the mods from having a brain aneurism over having more threads on discussing Winter's future, I brought this quote over here from the Montreal pregame thread:



I would just like to put the record straight where we are in terms of number of games and his record because it's not fair to understate or overstate his record:

2011 MLS, 34 Games, 6-15-13 for 33 points, 0.97 ppg.
NCC/CCL, 16 games 9-4-3, 31 points, 1.94 ppg.
2012 MLS, 8 games, 0-0-8, 0 points, 0.00 ppg.

Total: 58 games, 15-19-24, 64 points, 1.10 ppg.

What jumps out at me is his horrendous league record. Over 42 games, he has a 6-15-21 record for 33 points and a 0.79 ppg. That would have put us in last place even in 2007, our inaurugal season. It would have put us in last or 2nd last place in any of the last 5 seasons.

What does that tell me? It says if we didn't have minnows like FC Edmonton and Real Esteli to beat up on to improve our record, we would have a ppg of under 1.00 over 58 games. With a multi-million dollar roster, that is inexcusable.

I'll give it to Winter, we did perform well in CCL and NCC. We did play some respectable and exciting football against some good teams in CCL...but like you've said everything else is inexcusable. I'm just trying to understand where it all went so downhill this season...but I seriously think the change has to come from the top more then anywhere. I think even if we were to make a management change who says that we'll hire the right guy? It's time for us to bring in a proper soccer president to execute a vision and figure out who's accountable for what from now on. Everything has to start from the top in order for this team to make a turn around in the future.

Roogsy
05-08-2012, 04:54 PM
Our CCL record is decent. We excelled over a period of 4 games. The last game against Dallas, the two games against LA and the first game against Santos. Everything before and after was average at best. It's those 4 games that got everyone excited. It may be human nature but from an analytical point of view, those 4 games look more and more like an aberration rather than a true indicator of better times to come.

Beach_Red
05-08-2012, 05:09 PM
Beach_Red,

MLSE has huge pockets. They are not outspent. But, you just keep believing that it's all about uncompetitive Canadian businesses if it makes you feel better. The Vancouver Canucks, Edmonton Oilers, Calgary Flames, Winnipeg Jets, Ottawa Senators, and Montreal Canadiens all have owners too. 19 years. 0 Stanley Cups.


TFC is now owned by Rogers & Bell. I wish them the best of luck. For TFC's sake.

I wish them luck, too (I sort of work for Bell, so I want to believe).

And some of those Canadian teams made it to game seven of the finals, so it isn't as bleak as we sometimes make it out to be.

brad
05-08-2012, 05:36 PM
In an effort to save the mods from having a brain aneurism over having more threads on discussing Winter's future, I brought this quote over here from the Montreal pregame thread:



I would just like to put the record straight where we are in terms of number of games and his record because it's not fair to understate or overstate his record:

2011 MLS, 34 Games, 6-15-13 for 33 points, 0.97 ppg.
NCC/CCL, 16 games 9-4-3, 31 points, 1.94 ppg.
2012 MLS, 8 games, 0-0-8, 0 points, 0.00 ppg.

Total: 58 games, 15-19-24, 64 points, 1.10 ppg.Lets compare Winter to our other Managers - just for fun... (numbers are overall competitive matches). I honestly had no idea what these numbers would look like before running them.

MoJo - 30 games 6-7-17, 25 points, 0.83ppg
Carver - 40 games, 12-12-16, 48 points, 1.2 ppg
Cummins - 30 games, 11-8-11, 41 points, 1.36 ppg
Preki - 32 games, 11-10-11, 43 points, 1.34 ppg
Dasovic 10 games, 3-3-4, 13 points, 1.3 ppg

What I find interesting here - Winter is our second worst manager (after MoJo), he is our longest serving manager, and he is doing it with the highest payroll... Ouch

bigredone
05-08-2012, 05:38 PM
decimatio of the entire FO

tiberius
05-08-2012, 06:49 PM
... I happen to believe that TFC is in a much more complicated situation than during previous "crises"...

I don't think it's as simple as a difference in opinion over formations. The current soap opera seems to be a battle for hearts and minds over philosophy. Do you find the players who fit the system, or do you build a system around the players you have? Do you focus on developing players and supplement with foreign talent, or use the traditional MLS style of building a backbone of US players and supplement with trades and the draft? Max out on DPs or spread the cap around?

I have to agree that this crisis is about philosophy, but I would differ on the philosophical root issue... We can discuss/argue/bicker over players, trades, DPs, coaches, formations and cheque signings until the cows come home but that is just run-of-the-mill normal supporter's stuff. None of these things have brought us to the edge of the abyss that is currently staring us in the face. The real philosophical issue is: "Is it reasonable to keep the three key senior management guys, any longer, when they have displayed a collective of over 18 years of ineptitude, as demonstrated by running an insanely popular soccer organization into the ground?"

Given the results of this poll to date, I would suggest that it appears that almost everyone who frequents this board is in agreement on where to land on this philosophical issue - we have as close to consensus as we will ever get on any topic (except on beer and ticket prices:D). The next step would be to figure out how to migrate our consensus over to the media, the public mindset and those who will ultimately stand in judgment of the 3 horses of the apocalypse... (Winter is the 4th horse, but he will be gone before Bierne, Anselmi and Cochrane ever meet their fate...http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/icons/icon13.png)

Some of the ideas that sound like they would draw attention:

- plane flying around BMO field: "Hey, Ho, Bierne, Tommy, Cochrane Gotta go!"
- a rogue band of 30-50 placard carrying protesters that roam around Downtown blocking traffic at whatever intersection they choose - it won't take the media long to pick up on that one!!
- protest around the gates of BMO before games
- an open letter to Bell/Rogers/MLSE given to various news organizations, signed by the presidents of all support groups calling for the resignations of the "big three"
- dunno if we could persuade the "Blackburn protest chicken" to show up, but maybe the TFC squirrel could run around BMO field with a "Hey, Ho..." sign
- all of the above?

Toronto FC supporters have been brought through the wringer the last few years, so it may be hard to execute on any of these ideas, but it is delicious to envision them anyway....:rolleyes:
Perhaps the presidential open letter might be doable, and we might be able to smuggle a few squirrels in....:drum:

prizby
05-08-2012, 07:18 PM
In all fairness, probably not. But that is also a worst-case scenario because then it pretty much assures that not only have they selected wrong with Winter but will continue to select poorly going forward and we all are truly screwed.

There is still an element of faith that hopefully the next time they get it right. Because so far they haven't. But that is hardly a supportive statement for keeping Winter in place. So it really just leaves us one choice. To pray and hope the next selection is better.

yet there is no faith that Winter can turn the ship around? Wouldn't logic dictate that if you have got continually wrong in the past that you will continue getting it wrong going forward? Or is logic no longer in play now?

Roogsy
05-08-2012, 07:27 PM
yet there is no faith that Winter can turn the ship around? Wouldn't logic dictate that if you have got continually wrong in the past that you will continue getting it wrong going forward? Or is logic no longer in play now?

After 60 games faith is no longer relevant. There is sufficient actual evidence. Much more than a sample size of 4 hired coaches one of which is the one currently in charge. There is less evidence as to whether MLSE is worse at picking MLS coaches than there is that Winter is a poor MLS coach. This is particularly true given your own statement above about past performance being indicative of future results. If this theory is correct, there should be no question about the need to get rid of Winter. There's your logic.

prizby
05-08-2012, 07:54 PM
After 60 games faith is no longer relevant. There is sufficient actual evidence. Much more than a sample size of 4 hired coaches one of which is the one currently in charge. There is less evidence as to whether MLSE is worse at picking MLS coaches than there is that Winter is a poor MLS coach. This is particularly true given your own statement above about past performance being indicative of future results. If this theory is correct, there should be no question about the need to get rid of Winter. There's your logic.

funny cause while we continually pick more bad coaches, there is actually evidence in this league that if you actually gave a coach some time, that the coach has never missed the playoffs by his 3rd year in charge...yet you seem content to play manager roulette and ride the manager merry-go-round, which for this team has resulted in a grand total of ZERO playoff games

Beach_Red
05-08-2012, 07:57 PM
funny cause while we continually pick more bad coaches, there is actually evidence in this league that if you actually gave a coach some time, that the coach has never missed the playoffs by his 3rd year in charge...yet you seem content to play manager roulette and ride the manager merry-go-round, which for this team has resulted in a grand total of ZERO playoff games

Do you think any one of our previous coaches would have made the playoffs by his 3rd year? (I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just curious).

Roogsy
05-08-2012, 08:11 PM
funny cause while we continually pick more bad coaches, there is actually evidence in this league that if you actually gave a coach some time, that the coach has never missed the playoffs by his 3rd year in charge...yet you seem content to play manager roulette and ride the manager merry-go-round, which for this team has resulted in a grand total of ZERO playoff games

So basically your argument is that hiring well is unimportant and all coaches should be given to their 3rd year regardless of results? I don't buy that. Performance matters. What happens to your theory if Winter doesn't make the playoffs in his 3rd season either? Give him a 4th because the evidence shows no coach has gone 4 years without making playoffs? Sorry but that is a ridiculous evaluation process. I guess we should have kept Preki 2 more years...crooked practices, losing the lockerroom and all.

You keep an employee on because he shows he can do the job. Period. Not because you're tired of going through the hiring process.

denime
05-08-2012, 08:26 PM
So basically your argument is that hiring well is unimportant and all coaches should be given to their 3rd year regardless of results? I don't buy that. Performance matters. What happens to your theory if Winter doesn't make the playoffs in his 3rd season either? Give him a 4th because the evidence shows no coach has gone 4 years without making playoffs? Sorry but that is a ridiculous evaluation process. I guess we should have kept Preki 2 more years...crooked practices, losing the lockerroom and all.

You keep an employee on because he shows he can do the job. Period. Not because you're tired of going through the hiring process.

Yes! :hide:

Roogsy
05-08-2012, 08:34 PM
:lol:

Whoop
05-08-2012, 08:56 PM
I think people are picking and choosing their argument.

The argument that coaches need 3 years to make the playoffs?

The coaches who get the time to take 3 years have been coaches who have won in the past.

For example people use Sigi Schmid in Columbus, yet the only reason he got 3 years was because in 6 years with the LA Galaxy they were champions once, were finalists two other times (including his first year when he took over early in the year), and made the semis 2 other times. At least semi-finalists 5 out of 6 years gives you leeway.

Let's use the examples prizby has given in the past.

So I don't understand this give him 3 years stuff. If Aron Winter was a proven, winning head coach, then yes I would give him the benefit of the doubt. Sure it took him 3 years in Columbus but he was given leeway because he was a winner.

Frank Yallop in his first 3 years as a head coach of San Jose won 2 MLS Cups. So of course he was given leeway in his 2nd go around in San Jose because he was a winner.

So name me another coach who was given 3 years in MLS without making the playoffs who never was a head coach before at any level. The only one I can see is Peter Vermes but he was a long time MLS player.

Oldtimer
05-08-2012, 09:12 PM
I think that Winter shows that he needs to go, but I'm under no illusions that this will instantly improve the team. In fact, getting the Winter hire wrong practically guarantees that this team will go through yet another painful transition period, even if we get the right guy this time around.

prizby
05-08-2012, 09:28 PM
Do you think any one of our previous coaches would have made the playoffs by his 3rd year? (I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just curious).

I think Carver would have done it for sure in 2010, maybe in 2009. I feel Chris Cummins would have done it 2010

prizby
05-08-2012, 09:36 PM
So basically your argument is that hiring well is unimportant and all coaches should be given to their 3rd year regardless of results? I don't buy that. Performance matters. What happens to your theory if Winter doesn't make the playoffs in his 3rd season either?

My theory is playing manager roulette has NOT worked, but giving a manager a third year in this league has!

If Winter doesn't make it in his 3rd year, then you have to let him go, but if we don't give him that 3rd year (or any previous manager), how are we ever suppose to know...the problem has been the constant change in who is leading the club

would you fire a manager if he finished in last place in the east (in a non expansion year) and then 2nd last place in the east (when the last place team was an expansion team)?

Beach_Red
05-08-2012, 09:48 PM
I think Carver would have done it for sure in 2010, maybe in 2009. I feel Chris Cummins would have done it 2010

Yeah, I agree. And it doesn't matter now, but it might be worth pointing out, niether of those coaches were fired by the team and probably both could have stayed long enough to make the playoffs if they'd wanted to. So there hasn't really been that much "manager roulette." I guess the results are the same, but all that means is Winter happened to be in the right place at the right time, which for some people isn't a good enough reason to keep him if he doesn't start winning games now.

Whoop
05-08-2012, 09:52 PM
Other than Peter Vermes, where has it shown that giving a MLS coach 3 years, who is a first time head coach, has had success?

a) You usually don't sign a first time head coach, even at MLS level, and expect success.

b) You usually don't last 3 years anyway if you don't succeed....... unless you have a proven track record.

The only time you can succeed with a first time head coach is if said coach has North American experience.

brad
05-08-2012, 10:06 PM
Other than Peter Vermes, where has it shown that giving a MLS coach 3 years, who is a first time head coach, has had success?

kreis. But I agree with you.

Roogsy
05-08-2012, 10:09 PM
My theory is playing manager roulette has NOT worked, but giving a manager a third year in this league has!

If Winter doesn't make it in his 3rd year, then you have to let him go, but if we don't give him that 3rd year (or any previous manager), how are we ever suppose to know...the problem has been the constant change in who is leading the club

would you fire a manager if he finished in last place in the east (in a non expansion year) and then 2nd last place in the east (when the last place team was an expansion team)?

If a data sample of 3 hired managers (yes THREE, the actual number of managers that have been hired by TFC) is what you use to validate your theory of "manager roulette", how much moreso is a sample of 60 games to prove what this current manager is capable of? You have arbitrarily chosen 3 years as somehow validating what he is capable of. Why is 60 games not enough? That is what you should really be answering.

Huyton
05-08-2012, 10:11 PM
New England had 28 points from 34 games for 0.824 points per game.

At the moment, they have 9 points from 9 games (3 wins, 6 losses).

Last year, in the first 9 games they went 2-3-4 for 10 points.

So, they're actually worse this year. Incidentally, in their last 5 games, they've won 1 and lost 4, for 0.600 points per games.

Roogsy
05-08-2012, 10:11 PM
I think people are picking and choosing their argument.

The argument that coaches need 3 years to make the playoffs?

The coaches who get the time to take 3 years have been coaches who have won in the past.

For example people use Sigi Schmid in Columbus, yet the only reason he got 3 years was because in 6 years with the LA Galaxy they were champions once, were finalists two other times (including his first year when he took over early in the year), and made the semis 2 other times. At least semi-finalists 5 out of 6 years gives you leeway.

Let's use the examples prizby has given in the past.

So I don't understand this give him 3 years stuff. If Aron Winter was a proven, winning head coach, then yes I would give him the benefit of the doubt. Sure it took him 3 years in Columbus but he was given leeway because he was a winner.

Frank Yallop in his first 3 years as a head coach of San Jose won 2 MLS Cups. So of course he was given leeway in his 2nd go around in San Jose because he was a winner.

So name me another coach who was given 3 years in MLS without making the playoffs who never was a head coach before at any level. The only one I can see is Peter Vermes but he was a long time MLS player.

Name me any manager that went 0-8 and was given 3 years anyways is a better question.

The crazy thing about this is that all of this debate about his performance which seems obvious enough to most people, and all of that without even touching on the fact that he has the THIRD highest payroll in MLS and THREE DPS!!!

He can't perform with all those advantages and we should STILL give him 3 years??? :facepalm:

rocker
05-08-2012, 10:16 PM
If a data sample of 3 hired managers (yes THREE, the actual number of managers that have been hired by TFC) is what you use to validate your theory of "manager roulette", how much moreso is a sample of 60 games to prove what this current manager is capable of? You have arbitrarily chosen 3 years as somehow validating what he is capable of. Why is 60 games not enough? That is what you should really be answering.

So what's the right number of games? 10? 30? 100? And what level of success would be required within whatever number of games you choose to keep one's job?

Cuz somebody like Jon Spencer in Portland is looking like a firing candidate this year. Would you fire him if they finish where they are now? Last year he was praised despite not making the playoffs. And Spencer has no previous history of success as a head coach.

I think Prizby's three year thing isn't any more arbitrary than someone saying 1 season is all a guy gets. The 3 year point is the outlier for success based on the past histories of all MLS coaches since 1996. It takes, at worst, 3 years to get a team to some level of success. Nobody is saying Winter will succeed in that time. But if one never gives a coach the chance, then we'll never know.

Now, if Nicol is an option, then you might as well hire him (I wished we could have had him back then, but he was still employed).
But I would say, again, that Nicol gets three years. If his team was shit after 60 games I wouldn't fire him and get somebody else.

Roogsy
05-08-2012, 10:44 PM
I am all for making a case for giving a coach the time to make his case that he's on the right track but you don't always have to reach the full extent of a contract before you realize the full term is not necessary. Disregarding Chelsea's penchant for going through managers, you will find yourself hardpressed to find a Chelsea fan that doesn't believe switching AVB for DiMatteo was not the right move and I am sure that fanbase is even more tired of going through managers. The point isn't to land on any old manager and stick with him no matter what, it's to find the RIGHT manager and stick with him through the hard times. How has Winter made his case that he's the right manager?

Yes new managers will struggle. But there is struggle and then there is what Winter is putting us and the players through. The arrival of these DPs should have minimized the struggles and yet our performance is historically poor (I wish that was a hyperbole). Imagine if we didn't have Frings? I shudder the thought.

Hopefully the next coach will be given time. But if he starts 0-8 after an entire season to get things in order you damn well know I will be calling for his head as well, whether he is Nicol, DeRo, Pep or Sir Alex.

Whoop
05-08-2012, 10:48 PM
kreis. But I agree with you.

Kreis made the playoffs in his 2nd year.

Whoop
05-08-2012, 10:54 PM
I am all for making a case for giving a coach the time to make his case that he's on the right track but you don't always have to reach the full extent of a contract before you realize the full term is not necessary. Disregarding Chelsea's penchant for going through managers, you will find yourself hardpressed to find a Chelsea fan that doesn't believe switching AVB for DiMatteo was not the right move and I am sure that fanbase is even more tired of going through managers. The point isn't to land on any old manager and stick with him no matter what, it's to find the RIGHT manager and stick with him through the hard times. How has Winter made his case that he's the right manager?

Yes new managers will struggle. But there is struggle and then there is what Winter is putting us and the players through. The arrival of these DPs should have minimized the struggles and yet our performance is historically poor (I wish that was a hyperbole). Imagine if we didn't have Frings? I shudder the thought.

Hopefully the next coach will be given time. But if he starts 0-8 after an entire season to get things in order you damn well know I will be calling for his head as well, whether he is Nicol, DeRo, Pep or Sir Alex.

This is what makes the difference.

You have to cut the losses when things aren't going right. And things aren't going right.

I'd have no problem giving Winter 3 years... if this season we had seen some improvement. But I don't have to be naive to see that things are worse.

You have an 0-8 record, you have players publicly calling out the manager and his tactics, and you have stands getting emptier and emptier.

Compared to last season where the team was bad at the beginning of the year but not historically bad, some disgruntled players but for the most part pretty happy, and the stands were a little fuller.

To be that says things are getting worse. And it's not like we see sunshine over the horizon just yet either.

Whoop
05-08-2012, 10:56 PM
So what's the right number of games? 10? 30? 100? And what level of success would be required within whatever number of games you choose to keep one's job?

Cuz somebody like Jon Spencer in Portland is looking like a firing candidate this year. Would you fire him if they finish where they are now? Last year he was praised despite not making the playoffs. And Spencer has no previous history of success as a head coach.

I think Prizby's three year thing isn't any more arbitrary than someone saying 1 season is all a guy gets. The 3 year point is the outlier for success based on the past histories of all MLS coaches since 1996. It takes, at worst, 3 years to get a team to some level of success. Nobody is saying Winter will succeed in that time. But if one never gives a coach the chance, then we'll never know.

Now, if Nicol is an option, then you might as well hire him (I wished we could have had him back then, but he was still employed).
But I would say, again, that Nicol gets three years. If his team was shit after 60 games I wouldn't fire him and get somebody else.

I'm certain if Portland doesn't rebound or show some improvement as the season progresses, yes I will bet Portland will fire Spencer, you'll see.

But even then Spencer has over a decade of MLS experience as a player, an assistant coach on a championship winning team, and as a head coach of a reserve side.

So the outlier is 3 years for a coach, if he has North American experience.... don't see it for a guy who has no North American experience.

prizby
05-08-2012, 11:04 PM
Other than Peter Vermes, where has it shown that giving a MLS coach 3 years, who is a first time head coach, has had success?

a) You usually don't sign a first time head coach, even at MLS level, and expect success.

b) You usually don't last 3 years anyway if you don't succeed....... unless you have a proven track record.

The only time you can succeed with a first time head coach is if said coach has North American experience.

Gary Smith

some other names to consider too:

Colin Clarke
Schellas Hyndman

Rhapido
05-08-2012, 11:13 PM
Name me any manager that went 0-8 and was given 3 years anyways is a better question.

The crazy thing about this is that all of this debate about his performance which seems obvious enough to most people, and all of that without even touching on the fact that he has the THIRD highest payroll in MLS and THREE DPS!!!

He can't perform with all those advantages and we should STILL give him 3 years??? :facepalm:

Or a manager that started 0-0-8 in his second season. This team has clearly regressed, rather than improve incrementally over time (which is what you would want to see if you were committed to giving your coach a 3year window).

This has become a train wreck. And professional soccer in this city is taking it squarely on the chops. 0-0-8 is a very ugly set of numbers, and it would take a complete turnaround (like a 6-0-2 run) to come close to undoing the damage. With players yelling at coaches, refusing to shake their hands when leaving the field, and now, players refusing to talk to the media, I don't think anyone should be holding their breath. I think the players are quickly losing faith in Winter, one by one. As much as I value stability in management, we can't continue ignoring the elephant in the room.

Whoop
05-08-2012, 11:36 PM
Gary Smith

some other names to consider too:

Colin Clarke
Schellas Hyndman

Schellas Hyndman - 30 years of head coaching experience, all in North America

Colin Clarke - made the playoffs in his 2nd full year of coaching FC Dallas, was fired after his 3 full year of coaching (Clarke was an interim coach in 2003 taking over for Mike Jeffries in September of 2003)

Gary Smith - much like Colin Clarke, made the playoffs in his 2nd full year of coaching Colorado (Smith was an interim coach in 2008 taking over for Fernando Clavijo in August of 2008)

In both cases Clarke and Smith were both given three year contracts AFTER being an interim head coach for half a season.

prizby
05-08-2012, 11:41 PM
Hyndman - never coached professional players until dallas; coached the equivalent of academy/reserve players (much like Winter), but at much lesser team.

Clarke - fine

Gary Smith...never was a head coach or manager...was head coach of the watford u18 team and reserve manager (much like winter)

Whoop
05-08-2012, 11:50 PM
Hyndman still had 30 years.... 30 years of HEAD coaching experience! And had success at that level.

Smith wasn't hired by Colorado to be a coach. He was an academy guy. He was hired to run Arsenal's academy. He only took over Colorado when Clavijo resigned. Then he has hired. 2009 was his first full year coaching, 2010 made the playoffs.

Winter was an ASSISTANT who kept getting downgraded.

So point being... most coaches after TWO years made the playoffs.

Whoop
05-08-2012, 11:54 PM
And odds are most of those guys if they stayed 2-3 years before making the playoffs, they showed improvement, not regression.

And weren't 0-8 at any point.

Roogsy
05-09-2012, 12:49 AM
Discussions become unproductive when instead of accepting prudent management practices you're forced to explain why the exception, not the rule, is no way to manage a club, when you would think it is obvious enough. Unfortunately Priz that is your favourite style of argument and it is logically lacking. You can find examples for any situation where unconventional or off-beat decisions work out but when you fail to compare against, account or quantify instances where they dont it is selective evidence and it is a logical fallacy. It's called "cherry picking" or "confirmation bias " where you provide only the data that supports your position.

Unless you can prove that the practice succeeds more than it fails, its evidentiary value is worthless.

I think most people would agree that experience is critical for a coaching position. And if you are going to take a risk on an unproven, inexperienced manager, they would have a lot less room for error than a proven one. That is just common sense. And if that manager struggles, you pull the parachute a helluvalot faster than you would with an experienced professional. There is a lot at stake here. Failure to apply proper risk management measures is the very definition of poor management practice and is extremely foolish. People lose jobs for that kind of mismanagement. At least, they do in better run companies than MLSE.

Cashcleaner
05-09-2012, 01:08 AM
And odds are most of those guys if they stayed 2-3 years before making the playoffs, they showed improvement, not regression.

And weren't 0-8 at any point.

FUCKING THIS.

Seriously, I feel like putting my head through a wall trying to explain this to people.

brad
05-09-2012, 06:38 AM
Winter was an ASSISTANT who kept getting downgraded.

Important point here. We didn't hire the toast of the Ajax academy.

Canary10
05-09-2012, 08:28 AM
Important point here. We didn't hire the toast of the Ajax academy.

Do you have any idea how incredibly competitive the coaching situation is at Ajax? Being a second tier coach at Ajax would be a compliment for most coaches.

tfcleeds
05-09-2012, 08:30 AM
What if TFC hadn't won a single game under Winter so far? Should we still give him 3 years based on the off-chance he MIGHT get it right in year 3? I seriously just do not understand this argument. We have regressed under Winter. There is no reason, based on the performance so far, to think that things will just somehow fall into place going forward. He's had plenty of resources to work with, arguably more so than any of his predecessors, and still can't get it right. If his first 60 games haven't told you he probably isn't the right person for the job, I don't know what will.

Belfast_Boy
05-09-2012, 08:46 AM
hey, I hear Dero is coming back to coach!

Canary10
05-09-2012, 08:49 AM
^ That's the real issue. Critcizing him for not being amongst the premium coaches at Ajax is not a good argument. No top coach in Europe will come to MLS in the first instance. One thing about Winter everyone has generally agreed on is that he's professionalized the whole operation based on how they do things over there.

Belfast_Boy
05-09-2012, 08:49 AM
So Winter goes first.

New coach comes in.

Then Anselmi and Cochrane go. New president comes in.

What happens to new coach?

Is a possible 8th coach (after Winter's replacement) really the best thing for this team?

if he's doing a good job he stays. a new prez will keep a winning coach.