Anselmi (3 wise men) or Winter - Who to get rid of???

[Beach_Red]

^ That's the real issue. Critcizing him for not being amongst the premium coaches at Ajax is not a good argument. No top coach in Europe will come to MLS in the first instance. One thing about Winter everyone has generally agreed on is that he's professionalized the whole operation based on how they do things over there.

Sure, him and a seventeen million dollar investment that none of the previous managers had. And maybe Winter is the best possible coach for this situation, but I still think they needed to hire someone with more business experience - and more experience dealing with the kind of bureaucrocy that exists at MLSE. It's one thing to work in an an already existing system, it's another thing entirely to build one.

Maybe what we have this year is one step back in order to take two steps forward. I want to be optimistic.

[Canary10]

Realistically Ansemli is going to be there at least until the sale is completed. I don't think we can even contemplate him at the moment. The lower hanging fruit is to break up this division of responsbility between Winter and Mariner that doesn't allow for accountability (or responsibility) from either. Let the on field coach have final say over player acquisition as well.

[Canary10]

Sure, him and a seventeen million dollar investment that none of the previous managers had. And maybe Winter is the best possible coach for this situation, but I still think they needed to hire someone with more business experience - and more experience dealing with the kind of bureaucrocy that exists at MLSE. It's one thing to work in an an already existing system, it's another thing entirely to build one.

Maybe what we have this year is one step back in order to take two steps forward. I want to be optimistic.

$17 million is a capital investment. Has nothing to do with how he organizes the team's day.

[trane]

hey, I hear Dero is coming back to coach!

That is what Roogsy said. I read it on some thread.

[Canary10]

^ Saw it on twitter too.

[Beach_Red]

$17 million is a capital investment. Has nothing to do with how he organizes the team's day.

I'm trying to let him off the hook for organizing the 0-8 team's day ;).

The thing is, every manager this team has had did what he was hired to do about as well as could be expected with the resources he was given. The problem we have now is that when Winter was hired there was all this talk of 'changing the culture' and vision and 'beautiful football,' and big, lofty ideals - but almost never mentioned was winning some games. So, you could say Winter has fulfilled his mandate very well.

[Canary10]

^ I was reading the infamous "notebook" last night and winning was a core value. He just hasn't done it.

[trane]

^ Saw it on twitter too.


Then it most be true. De Ro is coming back to take over as manager of TFC.

[Beach_Red]

^ I was reading the infamous "notebook" last night and winning was a core value. He just hasn't done it.


To be honest, I haven't seen the infamous notebook, that kind of stuff drives me crazy. Is winning the #1 priority? Or just one of the core values? I know people make fun of Al Davis and, "Just win, baby," and Vince Lombardi and, "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing," but I do like it when it's in the top five things we're trying to do... ;).

[Canary10]

It's definitley the priority, along with attacking possession football, forcing the play on the opponent, developing technically sound players to play that way through the academy.

I agree with the need for a change now, but if it means throwing all the above out to start over I think it's a big mistake. We need someone to implement our team philosopy, not someone to start over from scratch. We need to bring in someone with North American experience implementing attacking football, not just bring in the only former MLS coach who doesn't have a job at the moment.

[Whoop]

Do you have any idea how incredibly competitive the coaching situation is at Ajax? Being a second tier coach at Ajax would be a compliment for most coaches.

Yeah, those that don't succeed don't move up.

Either they move up or they're moved out.

[Beach_Red]

It's definitley the priority, along with attacking possession football, forcing the play on the opponent, developing technically sound players to play that way through the academy.

I agree with the need for a change now, but if it means throwing all the above out to start over I think it's a big mistake. We need someone to implement our team philosopy, not someone to start over from scratch. We need to bring in someone with North American experience implementing attacking football, not just bring in the only former MLS coach who doesn't have a job at the moment.

I think pretty much everyone agrees with this. It's unusual for a team with a losing record to decide it's going to turn things around by forcing the play on opponents who are likely better, but hey, go big or go home, right?

It's probably a good idea to stay the course on the plan (which frankly, sounds like the same plan every other team has, so maybe I'm just annoyed because I feel like they're trying to sell me something straightforward as something special.

[Canary10]

^ It's not really the same plan everywhere. Columbus, for example, says it will be the hardest working team in MLS. They say nothing about skill. Which makes sense, since they have none. They ARE all hard work.

[Beach_Red]

^ It's not really the same plan everywhere. Columbus, for example, says it will be the hardest working team in MLS. They say nothing about skill. Which makes sense, since they have none. They ARE all hard work.

Yeah, and there are probably a couple of other teams who decided that the kind of scouting and development required to be successful with a more skill game was too expensive. So, probably TFC with a lot of ticket sales and big money company behind it made the right choice. Along with a lot of other teams.

But there was a time when Toronto's sports "culture" was about hard-working, non-flashy teams. (I'm working on not being sarcastic here and saying that Klinsmann probably knows a lot more about Toronto's culture than I do ;)...)

[trane]

^ It is easier to win in Football with a hard-working, non-flashy team, IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT SYSTEM AND MANAGER.

[Canary10]

Hmm, that's probably true. Explains why a guy like Eckersley is a fan favourite.

I think our plan is forward looking though. I look at what the US men's teams are putting in place and I think skilled teams will be more the norm in MLS and teams like Columbus will struggle. They are already starting to. Fast physical players will take a back seat to skilled players who can move the ball.

[Canary10]

^ It is easier to win in Football with a hard-working, non-flashy team, IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT SYSTEM AND MANAGER.

Well I think ultimately that's the question right now. Are we going to throw out this philosophy (which means going back to square 1 with our personnel), or are we sticking with it and finding a manager that can better implement it?

[Whoop]

But like trane says, you need someone to make that transition.

It appears that Winter isn't that person.

[Oldtimer]

Well I think ultimately that's the question right now. Are we going to throw out this philosophy (which means going back to square 1 with our personnel), or are we sticking with it and finding a manager that can better implement it?

I don't think you have to completely throw out the philosophy, but you have to be able to modify it to face MLS reality. KC plays a 4-3-3 but it is less tiki taka and much more physical.

The biggest problem with Winter is his inflexibility.

10 years from now when our academy is churning out quality players who are technically gifted, we can play like Barcelona.

[Belfast_Boy]

But like trane says, you need someone to make that transition.

It appears that Winter isn't that person.


exactly Vic. what's the worst thing that'll happen, we'll lose more games! that's impossible!

[trane]

^ Exactly, maybe one day we have the players to play differently. But right now we need to play in a way in which we can get results now.

[Whoop]

I don't think you have to completely throw out the philosophy, but you have to be able to modify it to face MLS reality. KC plays a 4-3-3 but it is less tiki taka and much more physical.

The biggest problem with Winter is his inflexibility.

10 years from now when our academy is churning out quality players who are technically gifted, we can play like Barcelona.

10 years? You know it took Barcelona at least 20 years, probably closer to 30 years, to get where they are. La Masia was started, in its current incarnation in 1979. And this is one of the top clubs in the world, being able to recruit the best players in the country and in the world.

[Canary10]

I don't think you have to completely throw out the philosophy, but you have to be able to modify it to face MLS reality. KC plays a 4-3-3 but it is less tiki taka and much more physical.

The biggest problem with Winter is his inflexibility.

10 years from now when our academy is churning out quality players who are technically gifted, we can play like Barcelona.

I don't agree that Winter is inflexible. I think the opposite actually, he tinkers way too much with it. We've not had the same 4 start at the back in a row. He uses players out of position (like Avila is now playing out on the wing, although I guess that did work for one game).

I thik the real problem is that he doesn't give players defined roles and keep them in that role for enough time to get use to it. KC plays a 4-3-3 but it's more rigid than ours. You don't get all this player movement thing that Winter is trying that just has everyone confused about their role.

[Canary10]

Beach Red is right to be suspicious of the whole team philosophy thing. It COULD be a good philosophy if they are really invested in it. But it could have been a philsophy they developed after the season ticket base was sick of Prekiball.

When/if this change happens, personally I want to see MLSE reiterate that the philosophy stays and it's not just a bunch of words. Someone can better make the team work than Winter has been able to using the same system. I'm convinced of that.

[brad]

Do you have any idea how incredibly competitive the coaching situation is at Ajax? Being a second tier coach at Ajax would be a compliment for most coaches.

But he failed in that role.

[brad]

^ That's the real issue. Critcizing him for not being amongst the premium coaches at Ajax is not a good argument. No top coach in Europe will come to MLS in the first instance. One thing about Winter everyone has generally agreed on is that he's professionalized the whole operation based on how they do things over there.

I'm not criticizing him for not being one of the top coaches, I'm doing it because he wasn't a first team coach. He worked with kids - not professionals and there is a big difference there. And my criticism itself is not just based on this - it is the lack of results over a pretty long stretch of games now.

[Couchy81]

But he failed in that role.

He was there from 2005 to 2009, as head coach of the reserve team, and maintained the teams place in the highest tier league for reserve teams (there is relegation) and the team also won that leagues championship in 2005 and 2009.

[Canary10]

"I'm not criticizing him for not being one of the top coaches, I'm doing it because he wasn't a first team coach. He worked with kids - not professionals and there is a big difference there. And my criticism itself is not just based on this - it is the lack of results over a pretty long stretch of games now."

I just think you're on firmer ground talking about results than his coaching background in one of the biggest clubs in the world with a very competitive coaching structure that not one MLS coach could break into. None of us understand the intricacies of how that whole coaching system works anyway and how coaches get chosen or not.

Also, a lot of MLS coaches have similar level experience (coaching kids) at a far lower level of pressure and demand for results than Winter has had. NCAA coaches coming up to the MLS for example.

[T-boy]

I don't agree that Winter is inflexible. I think the opposite actually, he tinkers way too much with it. We've not had the same 4 start at the back in a row. He uses players out of position (like Avila is now playing out on the wing, although I guess that did work for one game).

I thik the real problem is that he doesn't give players defined roles and keep them in that role for enough time to get use to it. KC plays a 4-3-3 but it's more rigid than ours. You don't get all this player movement thing that Winter is trying that just has everyone confused about their role.

Although Winter is sometimes flexible with the formation, the style of play always remains the same. He's insisting on a slow, short passing building up to attacks. Whereas sometimes a giant kick up field is more effective. I'm not sure how Winter hasn't realised this - especially as last seasons "goal of the season" was a giant kick up field (Frei to Martina at the start of the season).

Sometimes you need to go Route 1. And sometimes short passing is good. Right now the players are constrained by the style of play and they need to be able to play the long pass when its needed and more effective.

[jabbronies]

Although Winter is sometimes flexible with the formation, the style of play always remains the same. He's insisting on a slow, short passing building up to attacks. Whereas sometimes a giant kick up field is more effective. I'm not sure how Winter hasn't realised this - especially as last seasons "goal of the season" was a giant kick up field (Frei to Martina at the start of the season).

Sometimes you need to go Route 1. And sometimes short passing is good. Right now the players are constrained by the style of play and they need to be able to play the long pass when its needed and more effective.

I think they do this waaaaay too often to be honest. I couldn't tell you how many times last game they chose to boot it up the field when a simple pass up the wings would've gotten the ball higher up the pitch into a better position. We do not have the players who can make a proper long pass or guys strong enough to win the ball in the air to receive it.

if anything, they do not pass the ball around properly at as much as they should be.

[TOBOR !]

something happened at half time in Torreon.

[Roogsy]

I don't agree that Winter is inflexible. I think the opposite actually, he tinkers way too much with it.

Tinkering with the lineup is not the same as being flexible.

[Canary10]

^ Maybe. I just see him trying to do too many things.

[ExiledRed]

He was there from 2005 to 2009, as head coach of the reserve team, and maintained the teams place in the highest tier league for reserve teams (there is relegation) and the team also won that leagues championship in 2005 and 2009.

I dont see head coach of the reserve team anywhere on his resume. Can you point me to that? I dont see 'head coach' of anything.

His wiki states he had a 3 year assistant coaching career with Ajax first academy team (is that the reserves?) I'd need to see the source of information that puts him as the head coach, and reserve league championship winner.

[Couchy81]

I dont see head coach of the reserve team anywhere on his resume. Can you point me to that? I dont see 'head coach' of anything.

His wiki states he had a 3 year assistant coaching career with Ajax first academy team (is that the reserves?) I'd need to see the source of information that puts him as the head coach, and reserve league championship winner.

The league the Ajax reserve team plays in is called Beloften Eredivisie, Jong Ajax won this league in 05 and 09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beloften_Eredivisie
Jong Ajax has a list of former head coaches, and Winter is on it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jong_AFC_Ajax

It is very difficult to find any information in English, but I'm still looking for more. Anyways I'm not debating Winter is the man for the job or not, just the blanket statement "Winter failed there (at Jong Ajax)", when I see information to the contrary.

[Canary10]

Does it matter at this point? On field results are the only thing that really matters.

[Belfast_Boy]

Does it matter at this point? On field results are the only thing that really matters.


doesn't matter where he coached or at what level. it's not working here. no team in the world would put up with this.

[Couchy81]

Does it matter at this point? On field results are the only thing that really matters.

Like I said I was only responding to the poster saying that Winter failed at Ajax. Winter is definitely failing here, that is without question.

[brad]

Does it matter at this point? On field results are the only thing that really matters.

Not really - the results are bad enough to warrant sacking anyone.

Experience vs non-experience though for me (which is what I was getting at up thread) is relevant in deciding how much faith to put in the manger regarding the turnaround. If, for example we had the season we had last year under someone like Schmidt or Arena, I place more stock in the "we are on the right track - need more time" train of though than with Winter due to the experience and success those guys have had - they have a track record. However, at 0-0-8 it becomes irrelevant IMHO.

[Beach_Red]

Beach Red is right to be suspicious of the whole team philosophy thing. It COULD be a good philosophy if they are really invested in it. But it could have been a philsophy they developed after the season ticket base was sick of Prekiball.

When/if this change happens, personally I want to see MLSE reiterate that the philosophy stays and it's not just a bunch of words. Someone can better make the team work than Winter has been able to using the same system. I'm convinced of that.

I hope it's successful, too, I just think it's the wrong philosophy for this city. There was all that talk about Klinsmann putting together a plan that reflected the culture of the city but no one really looked into the sports culture or the culture here at all.

Has Toronto really changed since it was, "The city that works?" The last time Toronto won the Stanley Cup they were managed by a guy whose philosophy was, "If they can't beat you in the alleys they can't beat you on the ice." They defeated the flashy Flying Frenchmen by outworking them. Since then the only success they've had has been under Pat Burns and Pat Quinn, typical hard-working style coaches. So, sure, guys like Eckersly are popular here, it's our culture.

People come from all over the world to Toronto for one reason - to work.

It doesn't mean no skill or that we're only hard work, but that's our culture. So, now we'll see if we can be successful importing someone else's culture (we used to call that colonialism ;)) and using it. I hope it works, it's just that we're not building on the existing culture, so it's going to be very hard - and yes, it makes me thnk it's just a lot of marketing buzzwords.

[brad]

Like I said I was only responding to the poster saying that Winter failed at Ajax. Winter is definitely failing here, that is without question.

This is new to me - actually. I was under the impression that his only experience was coaching the Ajax Academy first team. Success in the reserve league with actual pros is a very different thing. While it doesn't excuse the results now - it does give me a different perspective on the choice to hire him in the first place.

[Canary10]

Not really - the results are bad enough to warrant sacking anyone.

Experience vs non-experience though for me (which is what I was getting at up thread) is relevant in deciding how much faith to put in the manger regarding the turnaround. If, for example we had the season we had last year under someone like Schmidt or Arena, I place more stock in the "we are on the right track - need more time" train of though than with Winter due to the experience and success those guys have had - they have a track record. However, at 0-0-8 it becomes irrelevant IMHO.

Looking ahead, and assuming he's going to go, I just want to point out that two reasonably successful head coaches this year never coached in MLS - Jesse Marsch and Martin Rennie. Let's not jump to the idea that the head coach MUST have MLS experience.

Following this argument, I say put Caleb Porter on your radar screens.

[Couchy81]

This is new to me - actually. I was under the impression that his only experience was coaching the Ajax Academy first team. Success in the reserve league with actual pros is a very different thing. While it doesn't excuse the results now - it does give me a different perspective on the choice to hire him in the first place.

From what I see the reserve team and the academy are one and the same. I found some more clues deep searching Google that leads me to think he actually was the head coach, for a time anyways.

"Richard Witschge
Witschge is the Dutch midfielder bought by Cruyff from Ajax Amsterdam for the 1991-1992 season. His stay would be a short one, 2 seasons, but he played in nine Champions League games in his first season along with 23 league appearances.After the 1992-1993 season, Witschge would leave the team and have stints with FC Bordeaux, Blackburn Rovers, Ajax, Alavés before finishing his playing career with Oita Trinita in Japan after the 2003-2004 season. After he retired, he served as Aron Winter’s assistant manager with Ajax Amsterdam’s Reserve Team, Jong Ajax, but is no longer there and not much is known about what he has been up to lately."
http://www.totalbarca.com/2011/news/where-are-they-now-the-dream-team-part-ii/#ixzz1uONHb3Zp

[Whoop]

Winter was an assistant on the first youth team Ajax A1. (Jong Ajax is the reserve team.) He was head coach of Ajax A2.


Here is a description of each in English.

Ajax A1


The Ajax juniors, or the A1. The final phase in Ajax's youth development system. After this, the players go on to the first or second team. The juniors have won many national championships. Some of the greatest football players in the world (Cruijff, Bergkamp, Kluivert) came from the Ajax juniors.

Ajax A2


Ajax 2. Also known as Young Ajax. The stepping stone for young players to Ajax's first team. Here, new young foreign players can adjust to the playing style of Ajax. For others, it is a temporary stop between the juniors and the first team.

Jong Ajax is the actual reserve team. Aron Winter was never the head coach of the reserve team no matter what wiki says.

de Klerk was head coach of the amateur team (Saturday morning) as well as an assistant to Frank de Boer when de Boer was the head coach of the Ajax A1.

Left Ajax in April of 2009.

http://english.ajax.nl/News/Archive/Article/Winter-to-leave-Ajax.htm

Was hired by TFC in January of 2011.

That's a long stretch without a contract. I mean it's not like he was fired and took year off while being paid. And I think facts got fudged in a game of telephone with all the conflicting reports out there.

[Couchy81]

So A2 is Jong Ajax? Jong = Young in dutch. If that's the case, he did coach the reserve team, because Jong Ajax is the reserve team.

[Whoop]

He got his diploma to coach in December of 2005 and started coaching in the 2006-07 season.

[Whoop]

Ajax team structure.

Ajax 1 - main/senior team
Jong Ajax - reserve/second team

Ajax A1 - main youth team
Ajax A2 - second youth team

Then you get the various youth teams - Ajax B1, Ajax B2, Ajax C1, Ajax C2, Ajax D1, Ajax D2, etc.

Then you have Ajax amateur teams.

Winter never coached Jong Ajax.

[Couchy81]

ok cool thanks for clearing that up.

[Whoop]

The confusion comes in because Jong Ajax used to be called Ajax 2, but this preceded Winter's time as a coach as the name change came in the early 2000s.

[joeyjones]

There was all that talk about Klinsmann putting together a plan that reflected the culture of the city but no one really looked into the sports culture or the culture here at all.

do you know this for a fact? not defending JK here..

[Couchy81]

Well the fact they still call A2 "Young Ajax" and the reserve team is still called Jong Ajax is confusing as well since they translate to the same thing.

[Roogsy]

That rattled around in my head for a little bit but I think I get it.

Winter was not involved in the top two tiers of Ajax, which are Ajax 1 (the senior team we all know) and Ajax 2 (Jong Ajax), correct?

Where he was involved was as an assistant on 3rd tier team, which was Ajax A1 and as head coach of the 4th tier team, which was Ajax A2, both of which are the youth teams.

Do I have that right Vic?

[T-boy]

The problem is that a coach of a youth team, or reserve team, doesn't always equate to a a good first team manager. Winter may have had a good record at youth/reserve level, and I can see MLSE would want to hire him, but I don't see him as a good first team coach. He doesn't seem to have the motivational qualities to control a first team squad.

[Beach_Red]

do you know this for a fact? not defending JK here..


No, I don't. But I would love to read his report and see how he came to the conclusions he did.

[joeyjones]

No, I don't. But I would love to read his report and see how he came to the conclusions he did.

that's what i thought

[Whoop]

He may have assisted with the reserve team at the beginning of his coaching. The bulk of his coaching was done with the A1 and A2 teams, the youth teams. So think the equivalent to Danny Dichio and Jim Brennan at TFC.

But two things are certain.

1) Whether he started with the reserve or even the first youth team, he got demoted down until he was out of a job in 2009. His contract wasn't renewed and Winter explicitly stated that he was "pursuing other opportunities with a first division team as a head coach or assistant with other Dutch teams."

2) He was out of job between the spring of 2009 and and the winter of 2010.

[spark]

He may have assisted with the reserve team at the beginning of his coaching. The bulk of his coaching was done with the A1 and A2 teams, the youth teams. So think the equivalent to Danny Dichio and Jim Brennan at TFC.

But two things are certain.

1) Whether he started with the reserve or even the first youth team, he got demoted down until he was out of a job in 2009. His contract wasn't renewed and Winter explicitly stated that he was "pursuing other opportunities with a first division team as a head coach or assistant with other Dutch teams."

2) He was out of job between the spring of 2009 and and the winter of 2010.

To maybe help with putting this puzzle together - I was always under the impression Winter was under Adrie Koster, who I *THINK* was the head of the Ajax Academy. So the group that was 18-21 and U18 was coached by those two.

[Beach_Red]

that's what i thought

Do you know what criteria he used? Obviously I think he (we keep saying 'he' when it was really a company called Soccer Solutions) has a different view on the history and culture of my city than I do, so I'm curious about it.

[brad]

Looking ahead, and assuming he's going to go, I just want to point out that two reasonably successful head coaches this year never coached in MLS - Jesse Marsch and Martin Rennie. Let's not jump to the idea that the head coach MUST have MLS experience.

Following this argument, I say put Caleb Porter on your radar screens.

While I'd prefer a coach with MLS experience, I don't think that is necessary. I do think a head coach with experience coaching a first team (ideally successfully) is desirable. I think experience in North America is good, but I also think that an experienced foreign manager who has success at lower levels of football (so they have worked on limited budgets and with limited players) would also have potential.

[joeyjones]

Do you know what criteria he used? Obviously I think he (we keep saying 'he' when it was really a company called Soccer Solutions) has a different view on the history and culture of my city than I do, so I'm curious about it.

no i don't know what criteria he used.....but you seemed to state it as fact that no research was done...again, not defending JK, but i am sure his company laid out a plan of attack that included that type of research. how it was done, i don't know..

[Whoop]

spark you are correct.

[Beach_Red]

no i don't know what criteria he used.....but you seemed to state it as fact that no research was done...again, not defending JK, but i am sure his company laid out a plan of attack that included that type of research. how it was done, i don't know..

I'd just like to see the research. It doesn't really matter, of course, but I work in the "cultural industries" and this kind of thing happens all the time. It grows out of the, "Canada has no culture," myth that is often repeated. I'd just like to know what cultural foundation of Toronto this plan is building on. It can become too academic very quickly, so I understand not many people are interested.

[TorontoGunner]

If this thread is about who should be sacked my vote goes to Anselmi, Beirne and Cochrane. It has been 6 years with these guys and occasional talk about
interference. They are the common thread in this club. Does not matter what system or what manager you have however ambitious .... if the front office is
inept you will not succeed. Winter goes to work everyday knowing Mariner and Cochrane are there to step in as manager GM. No coach in the world would
tolerate that!

[joeyjones]

I'd just like to see the research. It doesn't really matter, of course, but I work in the "cultural industries" and this kind of thing happens all the time. It grows out of the, "Canada has no culture," myth that is often repeated. I'd just like to know what cultural foundation of Toronto this plan is building on. It can become too academic very quickly, so I understand not many people are interested.

i would be interested to see the cultural research as well....i have also thought that JK probably let MLSE know that if he did get the USMNT job that they would be playing the 433 from first team to youth teams. i would think that MLSE would have been all over that..pure conjecture obviously..

[trane]

I actually heard that winter was in charge of the young ajax, subboteo team.


Is there any truth to that Whoop?

[trane]

I just found footage of Winter managing Ajax;



QV9Hfn8NY_U

[Belfast_Boy]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7xloV_A8CFg/T0VXcM0IzWI/AAAAAAAAC_I/fQSogS24C-8/s400/HW%2BSubbuteo%2BAjax.JPG

[Oldtimer]

While I'd prefer a coach with MLS experience, I don't think that is necessary. I do think a head coach with experience coaching a first team (ideally successfully) is desirable. I think experience in North America is good, but I also think that an experienced foreign manager who has success at lower levels of football (so they have worked on limited budgets and with limited players) would also have potential.

Historically, getting a long-experienced NCAA coach works best of all, if you can't get one with good MLS experience.

[Belfast_Boy]

and to post on topic....

we should dump them all. Winter for the recent form and the three Stoogies for the previous years.

[trane]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7xloV_A8CFg/T0VXcM0IzWI/AAAAAAAAC_I/fQSogS24C-8/s400/HW%2BSubbuteo%2BAjax.JPG


I love that game. Wish I could get some to play with my kid.

[joeyjones]

^
that's what Winter will look like after the game tonight if we lose....red tie, underwear, his old cleats, an eight ball and 2 sixpacks of heineken trying to balance himself on half a melon..

[trane]

^ Hahahahahha. That is good.

[Auzzy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g04aCp3ej-I


g:D

(Just having some fun here, guys...)

[Pookie]

On the subject of Winter "losing the locker room"

From Arash Madini Twitter

Ryan Johnson on Aron Winter: "He wants to win really bad... We were unlucky on a lot of them. He has our backs and we have his." #TFC (https://mobile.twitter.com/search/#TFC)

[Beach_Red]

^ It's not really the same plan everywhere. Columbus, for example, says it will be the hardest working team in MLS. They say nothing about skill. Which makes sense, since they have none. They ARE all hard work.

Last night looked like a "hard work" win, didn't it? Looked good to me ;).

[brad]

Nice win last night - but still doesn't change my opinion on Winter.

[Oldtimer]

To his credit, Winter modified his tactics last game showing some flexibility.

One game is not enough for me to change my opinion, though. We'll see.

[narduch]

On the subject of Winter "losing the locker room"

From Arash Madini Twitter

Ryan Johnson on Aron Winter: "He wants to win really bad... We were unlucky on a lot of them. He has our backs and we have his." #TFC (https://mobile.twitter.com/search/#TFC)

But the reports coming out of the team meeting make it seem like the players essentially told Winter how they want to play.

[Fort York Redcoat]

But the reports coming out of the team meeting make it seem like the players essentially told Winter how they want to play.

Counter quote with quote or better yet a link please.

[narduch]

Counter quote with quote or better yet a link please.

I'm too lazy to look it up. Its on the post-match thread.

[Beach_Red]

Counter quote with quote or better yet a link please.

There was this:


Interesting post-game interviews with the players, who said the meeting resulted in a tactical decision to press higher up the field from now on (which is how most of the league plays). Certainly showed tonight. Montreal wasn't used to having to move the ball around at that pace and ended out playing a lot of long, unpredictable shit out of the back.

Of course, I have no proof, but I'm convinced that four games ago when Winter had his meeting with Anselmi the decision was made to put the "plan" on hold and just win some games. This meeting of the players seems to have reinforced the idea.

Last night looked like a team trying to win a game, not an organization trying to make a point about the game should be played.

I think Winter's mandate has changed and now we'll see what he can do right now - not building an organization for the future.

Of course, this is all speculation...

[Canary10]

Last night looked like a "hard work" win, didn't it? Looked good to me ;).

They also played with a high press and were on the attack from the first whistle. They played more to the way the 4-3-3 is supposed to be played.

But your point is taken, they worked hard. You can never win being second to 50/50 balls no matter what system you play.

[Canary10]

There was this:



Of course, I have no proof, but I'm convinced that four games ago when Winter had his meeting with Anselmi the decision was made to put the "plan" on hold and just win some games. This meeting of the players seems to have reinforced the idea.

Last night looked like a team trying to win a game, not an organization trying to make a point about the game should be played.

I think Winter's mandate has changed and now we'll see what he can do right now - not building an organization for the future.

Of course, this is all speculation...

They actually played to the system last night. Part of our problem has been Winter playing too tactically defensively and not havng confidence in playing HIS system as it should be. The way people are describing the team meeting, it sounds like the players told him let's play the way we are built to, not to everyone's criticism of the defence. They did, and they looked better.

[brad]

Counter quote with quote or better yet a link please.

I don't have anything handy - but there were tweets floating around last night from someone behind the bench that said Frings kept coming over to the bench and telling Winter what to do. It's twitter, though, so take that for what it is worth.

I don't actually think it's a bad thing for an inexperienced manager to take in feedback from the players and adjust tactics accordingly (especially when you have experience like Frings on the pitch) - so long as that is not a case where the players are actually taking control.

[Beach_Red]

They actually played to the system last night. Part of our problem has been Winter playing too tactically defensively and not havng confidence in playing HIS system as it should be. The way people are describing the team meeting, it sounds like the players told him let's play the way we are built to, not to everyone's criticism of the defence. They did, and they looked better.

And they played ugly, and there's nothing wrong with that ;). The goals were the result of effort, not any kind of beautiful play, and that's just fine.

At the beginning of the season (or maybe it was even last season, it's all a blur) there was a rumour that Winter played Cann out of position to make some kind of point. I don't buy that, but certainly last season there was no sense of urgency around games and it seemed like there was a real danger of complacency setting in - too much focus on the big objective and not enough in the games at hand. There was lot of talk about progress and none about results - results seemed to be something that could be put off indefinitely. Last night looked like the way we expected this team to start the season. I think this is a turning point. Sure, most teams will be better than Montreal, but TFC is not going to lose 8 in a row again and will be a lot more competitive now.

[Pookie]

But the reports coming out of the team meeting make it seem like the players essentially told Winter how they want to play.

I think that ^ is a bit of a twisting of words. Some of the direct quotes coming from the room were:

Arash Madani ‏ @ArashMadani (https://twitter.com/#!/ArashMadani)
Johnson said the team meeting "got a lot off our chests & the coaches got a lot off their chests." Said "open dialogue" helped a ton. #TFC (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC)


Frings: "Everyone needed to fight for everybody." ... And on Winter: "We have no problem with the coach." #TFC (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC)

Frings: "I told the guys before the game, 'we've spoken too much. We need to show it on the pitch today.'" #TFC (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC)



If I am reading between the lines, I'd say that Winter over the last few games was coaching to not lose. Perhaps as direct result from the meeting with Ansemli where he was reportedly given 4 games to turn it around. Ultimately, I think that the players/coaches meeting that happened after those "defensive efforts" was a bit of a gut check time for all involved.

The coach decided that if he is going to go out, he'll do it on his terms. The players decided that there really are no excuses. At some point they have to win their battles and decide to play for each other... and for their own development.

[Canary10]

There was some ugliness for sure, and a lot of hard work. But fundamentally they played the sytem - high press, attack first, tighter midfield. Winter's been pushed off his preferred gameplan by all the negatitivity surrounding the defence. The Ryan Johnson comments from the weekend, even the DeRo comments were all about that. Why is this attacking team playing 5 at the back? I think the team meeting was actually about sticking to the plan and convincing Winter to keep having faith in it.

[Canary10]

I think that ^ is a bit of a twisting of words. Some of the direct quotes coming from the room were:

Arash Madani ‏ @ArashMadani (https://twitter.com/#!/ArashMadani)
Johnson said the team meeting "got a lot off our chests & the coaches got a lot off their chests." Said "open dialogue" helped a ton. #TFC (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC)


Frings: "Everyone needed to fight for everybody." ... And on Winter: "We have no problem with the coach." #TFC (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC)

Frings: "I told the guys before the game, 'we've spoken too much. We need to show it on the pitch today.'" #TFC (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC)



If I am reading between the lines, I'd say that Winter over the last few games was coaching to not lose. Perhaps as direct result from the meeting with Ansemli where he was reportedly given 4 games to turn it around. Ultimately, I think that the players/coaches meeting that happened after those "defensive efforts" was a bit of a gut check time for all involved.

The coach decided that if he is going to go out, he'll do it on his terms. The players decided that there really are no excuses. At some point they have to win their battles and decide to play for each other... and for their own development.

Yes, totally agree.

[Beach_Red]

It doesn't really matter, but I think Winter's meeting with Anselmi was significant. I think we're going to see more emphasis on immediate results and we're going to get results. With all that talk of "affecting the way the game is played in North America" put aside, I think TFC has a very good chance to eliminate Vancouver and advance.

[Canary10]

^ I'm clearly a formation geek. Should stop reading Zonal Marking as my first read in the morning....

[Roogsy]

We won last night.

Give them all fucking extensions.

[jabbronies]

They also played with a high press and were on the attack from the first whistle. They played more to the way the 4-3-3 is supposed to be played. But your point is taken, they worked hard. You can never win being second to 50/50 balls no matter what system you play.



4-3-2/ 4-2-3 was exectued perfectly. Wonder what the game would've been like if they played a 4-3-3



Glad we are back on course with this system. The last 2 games of "trying to adapt" just did not work at all.

[Canary10]

Kocic's quote:

“When everybody’s fighting the way they did tonight, it’s not hard to win,” goalkeeper Milos Kocic told reporters following the victory. “And when we don’t drop back and wait for something to happen. The way we played today is the way we were supposed to play the whole season.”

[Pookie]

We won last night.

<--delete-->

Fixed it for you.

[Canary10]

Seriously, would Frings consider coaching TFC? I mean, he likes the city. No one could do a better job of uniting all TFC fans together. And he knows his shit. I've never seen anyone on the field more aware of everything that is going on around him than him. He's checking like 5 times a second to see where people are at and what's going on.

[Roogsy]

Seriously, would Frings consider coaching TFC? I mean, he likes the city. No one could do a better job of uniting all TFC fans together. And he knows his shit. I've never seen anyone on the field more aware of everything that is going on around him than him. He's checking like 5 times a second to see where people are at and what's going on.

I don't know personally but the common belief on these boards is that when he retires, there's a coaching job waiting for him at Werder Bremen. Not sure why he'd pick TFC over that.

As for his capabilities, again, I don't think people realize the difference between having abilities yourself and being able to develop them in others. These are two distinct skill sets. Frings may have personal awareness, but can he teach others is the real question. And you can't deduce that from his own play.

Interesting enough, that is the same difference that I believes makes Winter, who was a fantastic player, such a poor coach.

Not every great players makes a great coach. Look at Gretzky. Probably the best hockey player ever due this awareness and intelligence and yet he was never able to translate that behind the bench.

[tfcleeds]

Agreed, it would be great to see Frings take on some kind of role with TFC when he retires, but doubt that will happen, when there are sure to be plenty of offers back in Deutschland.

[Canary10]

^ He seems willing to trade anonymity for being in Germany.

We just don't know on your other points. Wonder if the younger kids on the team have any thoughts?

[jabbronies]

Frings was offered a position - probably with youth squad - before he came to Toronto:
http://fourfourtwo.com/news/restofeurope/79737/default.aspx

A follow up article that has WB assuming he will be back to coach there:
http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/werder-bremen-s-allofs-wants-toronto-fc-s-frings-coach-2166381

Even with this, I don't think he should be manager at TFC.
If it comes time and we are looking for our next manager - be it this season or some other time down the road - should be of Sigi Schmidt/Steve Nicol/Bruce Arena Caliber.

[Suds]

I don't know personally but the common belief on these boards is that when he retires, there's a coaching job waiting for him at Werder Bremen. Not sure why he'd pick TFC over that.

As for his capabilities, again, I don't think people realize the difference between having abilities yourself and being able to develop them in others. These are two distinct skill sets. Frings may have personal awareness, but can he teach others is the real question. And you can't deduce that from his own play.

Interesting enough, that is the same difference that I believes makes Winter, who was a fantastic player, such a poor coach.

Not every great players makes a great coach. Look at Gretzky. Probably the best hockey player ever due this awareness and intelligence and yet he was never able to translate that behind the bench.

Some good points here. Being an excellent player means only one thing - they were an excellent player. Until they actually have some history as a coach it's unclear how good they will be. Add the fact that some coaches are much better working with younger developing players and some are better handling the pressure that comes with coaching a top pro team. Different scenarios and it will require different skills and attributes to succeed. To use the Gretzky analogy, maybe he would be a fantastic coach at the junior level??

[joeyjones]

last night proved what Winter cannot do, and hasn't done up to this point in his TFC career; get the boys to give the required effort every game. you can't tell me that we can play like we did against LA, Santos and now Montreal and play like shit in league games, and that is ok. it's down to the game day coach, getting his players up and ready for EVERY game..

[brad]

^^Maradona is the best example of good players not making a good coach IMHO. There are plenty more.

[Canary10]

last night proved what Winter cannot do, and hasn't done up to this point in his TFC career; get the boys to give the required effort every game. you can't tell me that we can play like we did against LA, Santos and now Montreal and play like shit in league games, and that is ok. it's down to the game day coach, getting his players up and ready for EVERY game..

I just posted the same in the after game thread. Yeah, motivation is his big problem.

[Canary10]

^^Maradona is the best example of good players not making a good coach IMHO. There are plenty more.

There is no hard or fast rule about whether good players can be good coaches. There are too many examples of both. All I know is that I've seen Frings doing the stuff of coaches out there. He takes guys aside and gives them direction. I'd love to hear from the younger kids how he is teaching.

[Beach_Red]

I just posted the same in the after game thread. Yeah, motivation is his big problem.

Maybe. But I think it's possible there has also been some adjustment from teacher to coach. Partly because Winter was coming from a youth system and partly because he was tasked with building an organization here (hey, you're a formation geek and I'm an office politics geek ;)).

So, maybe we'll see more consistent motivation from now on (I may be putting too much emphasis on Winter's meeting with Anselmi).

[Pookie]

Maybe. But I think it's possible there has also been some adjustment from teacher to coach. Partly because Winter was coming from a youth system and partly because he was tasked with building an organization here (hey, you're a formation geek and I'm an office politics geek ;)).

So, maybe we'll see more consistent motivation from now on (I may be putting too much emphasis on Winter's meeting with Anselmi).

I tend to theorize that there is a bit of a "circle the wagons" mentality going on... us vs them.

If the infighting and interference is there, players may be rallying around their coaching staff and each other. Ted Nolan, of NHL fame, was successful with the Sabres using this. It got him black-listed of course by putting players up against Management but it worked.

Not saying this is purposely being done but if there is a debate between MLS Pragmatists and Total Football Visionaries, it isn't that far of a stretch to say that folks might settle into one of two camps.

[brad]

There is no hard or fast rule about whether good players can be good coaches. There are too many examples of both. All I know is that I've seen Frings doing the stuff of coaches out there. He takes guys aside and gives them direction. I'd love to hear from the younger kids how he is teaching.

I agree completely. Whether a given coach is was a player or not should not even factor into the conversation, nor should how good or bad they were if they were a player.

[Roogsy]

I have been debating making this comment or not (lest the knives come out) and where to do it, either in the post-game thread or in here, but here goes. I figured in here would make less drama than in the post-game thread where people will just whinge about "raining on a parade".

What was the tactical difference between how the boys played last night and the way they have been playing in the previous 8 losses? Or at least the first 5 losses, since the last 2 or 3 have really been negative, defensive football we already know.

You see, I didn't see any tactical genius in last night. The difference to me was the effort. Getting to 50/50 balls first. Pressuring the Impact to make mistakes. Giving up the ball a lot less than they did. Those are not tactical improvements. Much of it was effort and passion. Which was probably a great result from the "airing" out in the meeting the day before.

But they're not going to have those "airing" outs every week are they? Or if they did, won't they lose their effectiveness?

Winter said this week that Johnson "was wrong" in his statement about playing defensively at home. And yet, this game we can all agree that it was the aggressiveness moving forward that led to the two goals. So was Johnson wrong? Why didn't Winter play that way against DC?

I said it before, I will say it again, last night was a good win, but it was like an old injured boxer that came out of his corner swinging and managed to land a few. Nice to see but does it point to something better? I didn't see anything last night that answered the fundamental issues with TFC. What I saw was that finally a team that looked beaten was showing some life. That's a good sign but more than one win is needed and it fails to answer the questions that had been already been raised. Can Winter coach this team to consistent success, not one win here, one win there? What of Winter's odd adjustments from time to time? What of his inflexibility? What of his failure to string two wins back-to-back together? Was this Winter's plan or was this the team imposing their preferred way of playing over Winters after the blow-up this week? These are only things that will be answered over time. If we win this one game but go on to continue to have a poor league record, what exactly does this win mean?

There are still lots of questions left and one game does not even come close to answering them. For some of us, yes we have made up our minds. It will take a sustained run of consistent performance to make us question our position. It's all about volume of evidence. There is just far more on one side than there is on the other. And honestly, to me it was somewhat bittersweet win last night. I think it saved Winter's job for a few more games and ultimately seals our season altogether. Instead of peeling the bandaid at once, we have decided to do it slowly.

[trane]

^ I already rained on the parade a bit in the other thread, but they ignored me.

[Canary10]

^ Exactly why I was talking about motivation. He doesn't seem to get players up for games unless there is already a reason for it (i.e. a semi-final game). He doesn't seem to be able to get players to play to that level of intensity game in and game out.

In terms of tactics, I agree there was not a lot different than the first 5 games or so, but I'd argue we should have picked up at least two wins in those games. It wasn't until we went totally negative that we didn't even look like we were in contention.

[Roogsy]

^ Exactly why I was talking about motivation. He doesn't seem to get players up for games unless there is already a reason for it (i.e. a semi-final game). He doesn't seem to be able to get players to play to that level of intensity game in and game out.

My thinking about this then is to question whether its Winter that gets them up for the game or whether it's the game itself.

Ever played in a tournament? A semi or finals? The game alone gets your adrenaline going.

To me this game shows me that when they play to their potential, they are a good team (I completely disagree with those that think MORE player turnover is necessary). The question is then raised why they have not been playing to their potential? And is Winter wrong then about needing "better players"?

[Fort York Redcoat]

My thinking about this then is to question whether its Winter that gets them up for the game or whether it's the game itself.

Ever played in a tournament? A semi or finals? The game alone gets your adrenaline going.

To me this game shows me that when they play to their potential, they are a good team (I completely disagree with those that think MORE player turnover is necessary). The question is then raised why they have not been playing to their potential? And is Winter wrong then about needing "better players"?

Something that jumps out at me from this post is the World football/NA argument of playoffs vs single table. In no other sport is the difference so highlighted that teams and players can be or could be susceptible to regular season malaise when there is less stress on number of games to win. Just squeak into the playoffs. Just enough to have a good run and win the important playoff games and if a team doesn't go all the way at least they MADE the playoffs and got some fairweathers in the house.

An elimination tourney like this just feeds the need to win I guess.

A sidenote I know but I find the endless debate somewhat interesting.

[Pookie]

And is Winter wrong then about needing "better players"?

I think that if you make the issue black and white it comes up grey.

There is a bit of truth to everything. They do need better players. What is the potential of a young player that is going to make mistakes? There is the immediate potential and some future potential. He may be great but the truth is that he isn't going to be a superstar every night. Young players tend to lack consistency. They make mistakes.

And we have a lot of them.

As an example, I looked at the average age of MLS players and those that earn minutes for their teams. There are some basic numbers like the average age of an MLS starter (defined as a player that plays half the available minutes). The MLS average is 27.1. Ours is 24.9, the youngest in the league.

If you go further and look at the distribution of minutes (ie. do the younger guys play) it gets more interesting. Since there are 900 minutes to be distributed in a game (outside of Goalkeepers... 10 players x 90 minutes each) how many minutes do teams give to "rookies"?

Even taking a very liberal definition of rookie as someone out of NCAA and under 24 years of age, check this out:



Team
% Game Inexperienced Play


Toronto
53.8%


Dallas
51.4%


PU
42.5%


NE
38.7%


Chivas
35.7%


DC United
34.3%


LA
34.1%


Portland
33.1%


Columbus
31.4%


RSL
28.9%


MTL
28.0%


Seattle
25.8%


SJ
25.6%


SKC
20.2%


Chicago
17.9%


Colorado
15.9%


NY
10.5%


VAN
10.5%


Houston
10.4%



Even teams with significant DP injuries (ie. NY and Marquez) don't rely on very young players to fill the ranks. We do. Almost exclusively.

That's a function of the resources available to identify players that are capable of filling in or supplying depth when needed. I've never seen a situation in which the 3rd most expensive roster in a league was also the youngest. Clearly, we are paying big money to a few guys and skimping on the rest. Either that is a function of a lack of scouting, rushing kids through the academy or simply cutting resources beyond the DPs, who knows... probably all of the above.

[Canary10]

My thinking about this then is to question whether its Winter that gets them up for the game or whether it's the game itself.

Ever played in a tournament? A semi or finals? The game alone gets your adrenaline going.

To me this game shows me that when they play to their potential, they are a good team (I completely disagree with those that think MORE player turnover is necessary). The question is then raised why they have not been playing to their potential? And is Winter wrong then about needing "better players"?

As a player I always needed some external thing to get "stuck in." Usually a dirty tackle or something from the other team. Or I would try to get a really solid tackle on someone early, and try to get under someone's skin. Otherwise I woudn't necessarily play badly, but I could float in and out of the game somewhat.

Last night we had the event itself - a semi-final in a knock-out tournament - and probably the Ecks red card as well. Everyone rallied around those things.

The coach needs to figure out what those things are that bring out the intensity and put it in place. If that means Ecks or Johnson destroying someone early on and starting a kerfuffle, so be it (as much within the bounds of the rules as possible). Or De Klerk punching out the other coach.....:). It's on Winter to do that. I don't think he's the one that's generated the intensity so far. If you think about it, our best games have all been in natural high intensity/pressure situations - Pumas last year, Dallas last year, Santos Laguna first leg, LA, Montreal second leg. So, yeah, something is lacking in his coaching to not bring that out himself.

[Beach_Red]

Something that jumps out at me from this post is the World football/NA argument of playoffs vs single table. In no other sport is the difference so highlighted that teams and players can be or could be susceptible to regular season malaise when there is less stress on number of games to win. Just squeak into the playoffs. Just enough to have a good run and win the important playoff games and if a team doesn't go all the way at least they MADE the playoffs and got some fairweathers in the house.

An elimination tourney like this just feeds the need to win I guess.

A sidenote I know but I find the endless debate somewhat interesting.

How this any different than, "at least they didn't get relegated?"

There is no league structure in the world where 0-8 looks anything but awful. Even with 162 games a baseball team can't start 0-8.

But, of course, this season is still technically salvageable. We need to finish 5th in the east and we have enough games against other eastern teams to gain ground.

I think we've only seen the beginning of Winter acting as a motivating coach for these players. I really think when he used to talk about making "progress" that was his mandate with the organization and he was doing it. It's only been for the last four games - a close loss at RSL, the DC game and the two Montreal games - that we've seen him organize his team for immediate results. And so far, the results aren't too bad.

[T-boy]

I don't think we've ever seen Winter as a "motivational" coach. The cup games as where the players lift themselves. The league games the players need a lift from their manager. I don't think we've seem Winter do this at all yet. We need a coach who can motivate the players to play even the most boring games and get a result. You can't judge Winter on cup games.

[T-boy]

Something that jumps out at me from this post is the World football/NA argument of playoffs vs single table. In no other sport is the difference so highlighted that teams and players can be or could be susceptible to regular season malaise when there is less stress on number of games to win. Just squeak into the playoffs. Just enough to have a good run and win the important playoff games and if a team doesn't go all the way at least they MADE the playoffs and got some fairweathers in the house.

An elimination tourney like this just feeds the need to win I guess.

A sidenote I know but I find the endless debate somewhat interesting.

you have to add in relegation into the equation too. For instance, if Bolton players don't perform this weekend, they will all be relegated and possibly out of the club.

If TFC finish bottom of the MLS, it doesn't really effect anything other than pride. The TFC players need to really get motivated to lift themselves off the bottom of a league where finishing bottom doesn't actually effect anything.

[brad]

Tactically, what was different was pressing higher up the pitch (big in a league where defenders are not comfortable on the ball) and playing a deeper defensive line. Those are pretty big tactical changes IMHO. I'll have to look at the chalkboards later and see how much the high pressure made a difference.

I do agree though that the players effort made the biggest difference last night. The defense also played a lot better last night, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Frings was back in his natural position when this happened.

That said, our pattern this year has been do well in cups, and stink in the league. Nothing about last nights cup win changes my opinion of where this team is though. Wins in the league - consistently is the only thing that will do that.

[Pookie]

I don't think we've ever seen Winter as a "motivational" coach. The cup games as where the players lift themselves. The league games the players need a lift from their manager. I don't think we've seem Winter do this at all yet. We need a coach who can motivate the players to play even the most boring games and get a result. You can't judge Winter on cup games.

So, let me get this. We are in a developmental league with a significant number of young aspiring players. Most play for under $100k per year, some making just $40k and some of them are under non-guaranteed contracts which could see them out of work at any point in time.

These are supposedly competitive individuals. They have a chance to work themselves into either a transfer situation to bigger leagues or at the very least parlay success into a bigger paycheck so they don't have to ride the bus to work.

And they need motivation from the coach??

If true, we have the wrong group of players.

[trane]

I was just talking with a friend of mine from Manchester, a United supporter, I told him about the theory, that Winter will be the next Fergie, if only left alone. He laughed. He pointed out that if Fergie went 0-8, Fergie would be gone.

But what does Man U know about building a great football club? MLSE knows better.

[Canary10]

Tactically, what was different was pressing higher up the pitch (big in a league where defenders are not comfortable on the ball) and playing a deeper defensive line. Those are pretty big tactical changes IMHO. I'll have to look at the chalkboards later and see how much the high pressure made a difference.

I do agree though that the players effort made the biggest difference last night. The defense also played a lot better last night, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Frings was back in his natural position when this happened.

That said, our pattern this year has been do well in cups, and stink in the league. Nothing about last nights cup win changes my opinion of where this team is though. Wins in the league - consistently is the only thing that will do that.

That is how 4-3-3s are supposed to be used, and the reason for two wide wingers. I don't know why a high press hasn't been happening more often - whether it's Winter telling them to be more cautious up top because of the all the negativity about the defense, or whether the players just aren't doing it. But that's the way it should be.

It certainly hasn't happened the past two games at least because they stopped any pretense of even going forward.

[brad]

I was just talking with a friend of mine from Manchester, a United supporter, I told him about the theory, that Winter will be the next Fergie, if only left alone. He laughed. He pointed out that if Fergie went 0-8, Fergie would be gone.

But what does Man U know about building a great football club? MLSE knows better.

Your only as safe as your last 5 results is a line Fergie uses often.

I think Fergie would get cut a bit more slack TBH based on his track record. I also think I'd have a better chance of winning the B'allon Dor than Fergie would of losing 8 games in a row.

[Suds]

I was just talking with a friend of mine from Manchester, a United supporter, I told him about the theory, that Winter will be the next Fergie, if only left alone. He laughed. He pointed out that if Fergie went 0-8, Fergie would be gone.

But what does Man U know about building a great football club? MLSE knows better.


I call bullshit on this post. There are no United supporters actually from Manchester.

:hide:


g:D

[trane]

^ I understand that. But this one actually is.

[trane]

Your only as safe as your last 5 results is a line Fergie uses often.

I think Fergie would get cut a bit more slack TBH based on his track record. I also think I'd have a better chance of winning the B'allon Dor than Fergie would of losing 8 games in a row.

Agreed.

But if it happened he may be given longer, because he has done so much with the club, so out of respect he may be given more time, but surely the pressure would be on, as he says even after 5 games without a point.

[Yohan]

Agreed.

But if it happened he may be given longer, because he has done so much with the club, so out of respect he may be given more time, but surely the pressure would be on, as he says even after 5 games without a point.

hell, SAF is on pressure if Man U is not up 10 pts as first place in EPL at any given time :p

[trane]

^ That is true as well.

[Fort York Redcoat]

How this any different than, "at least they didn't get relegated?"

There is no league structure in the world where 0-8 looks anything but awful. Even with 162 games a baseball team can't start 0-8.

But, of course, this season is still technically salvageable. We need to finish 5th in the east and we have enough games against other eastern teams to gain ground.

I think we've only seen the beginning of Winter acting as a motivating coach for these players. I really think when he used to talk about making "progress" that was his mandate with the organization and he was doing it. It's only been for the last four games - a close loss at RSL, the DC game and the two Montreal games - that we've seen him organize his team for immediate results. And so far, the results aren't too bad.

Promo/rel full table has their own malaise at the end of the season for mid table. This isn't our age long "which system is better" dance, BR ;) just a possible reason for a malaise at the start of the season.

[Beach_Red]

^ Yes, it does seem a little early for that discussion ;).

Right now, though, it would look better having to pass two teams to avoid relegation rather than five to get to a playoff spot, but it is doable. The malaise may be done, here's hoping.

[123 elite]

just read this in the guardian. Sounds familiar in a lot of ways

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/may/07/koln-raphael-honigstein

[ExiledRed]

I call bullshit on this post. There are no United supporters actually from Manchester.

:hide:


g:D

So where is Salford exactly? It used to be its own city but became United with another one and took its name, guess which one?

I am a scouser, and I wont be told that the mancs arent mancs. I dont discriminate indiscriminately thankyou.

[Suds]

So where is Salford exactly? It used to be its own city but became United with another one and took its name, guess which one?

I am a scouser, and I wont be told that the mancs arent mancs. I dont discriminate indiscriminately thankyou.

Good for you sweetheart. It's a joke FFS. That's what the smiley icons mean. And for your information it had nothing to do with what you're implying. Nice leap.


This board is just so fucking tiring these days. I'm out.

Enjoy.

[Rhapido]

I told him about the theory, that Winter will be the next Fergie, if only left alone.

Whose theory is this, and in what wing of the asylum is he currently being held?

[Rhapido]

As a player I always needed some external thing to get "stuck in." Usually a dirty tackle or something from the other team. Or I would try to get a really solid tackle on someone early, and try to get under someone's skin. Otherwise I woudn't necessarily play badly, but I could float in and out of the game somewhat.

Last night we had the event itself - a semi-final in a knock-out tournament - and probably the Ecks red card as well. Everyone rallied around those things.


I would have thought starting 0-3, 0-4, 0-5, 0-6, or 0-7 would have been enough motivation to get "stuck in" but maybe that's just me.

[Furtado91]

Maybe this idea has been thrown out lately. But I have been thinking about this meeting avila said they had before the game. all of a sudden after this meeting they are playing as a team? I have to wonder that different players were on different pages, and I cannot help but think that, some players do not get along, and the chemistry is not there.

I think this meeting helped because it allowed the players to voice their opinions like, maybe what winter should do, Ryan Johnson may prefer one player to another due to the chemistry.... I have yet to hear people mention that maybe the team just does not have chemistry with each other and the coach. Now whether it can be fixed remains to be seen. But my honest opinion (even though im sure some of you think im crazy or may not know much about the game). is that The team just does not have the chemistry. yes certain players work well with others, but its not 2 players vs 11 players. its a team sport, everyone has to connect to some degree to know what the other player is thinking. Thats something i think we lack. the ability to read teammates moves or mind when it comes to plays.

I honestly hope the meeting concluded with each and every player, coach, and other specific coaches, agreeing to make compromises for the good of the team.

[Roogsy]

The fact that they had the meeting and aired out difference is good thing. The fact that they needed to have that meeting is a bad thing. The question here is whether the benefits of that meeting are temporary or long-term. If there are fundamental problems with the team as I believe there are, a meeting such as this has a shelf-life and the only thing that can actually fix the team is to fix the fundamental problems.

[trane]

^ The meeting points to a lack of leadership, or lack trust in leadership of the manager.

[Canary10]

Maybe this idea has been thrown out lately. But I have been thinking about this meeting avila said they had before the game. all of a sudden after this meeting they are playing as a team? I have to wonder that different players were on different pages, and I cannot help but think that, some players do not get along, and the chemistry is not there.

I think this meeting helped because it allowed the players to voice their opinions like, maybe what winter should do, Ryan Johnson may prefer one player to another due to the chemistry.... I have yet to hear people mention that maybe the team just does not have chemistry with each other and the coach. Now whether it can be fixed remains to be seen. But my honest opinion (even though im sure some of you think im crazy or may not know much about the game). is that The team just does not have the chemistry. yes certain players work well with others, but its not 2 players vs 11 players. its a team sport, everyone has to connect to some degree to know what the other player is thinking. Thats something i think we lack. the ability to read teammates moves or mind when it comes to plays.

I honestly hope the meeting concluded with each and every player, coach, and other specific coaches, agreeing to make compromises for the good of the team.

I think you're right about this. The fact that Winter never plays the same starting 11 twice is part of the problem. And that we've had like 12 back line combinations in about as many games too. I understand we've had injuries, and the extra CCL games required some rotation, but he's really got to settle on as close to a consistent starting 11 as possible and play them regularly. That would help chemistry and on-field roles.

[Roogsy]

^ The meeting points to a lack of leadership, or lack trust in leadership of the manager.

I fully believe so.

This was in essence, to stave off a full outright mutiny. That is never a good sign. To be honest, it really looks like they've taken some authority away from their own manager...which if I remember correctly was one of the many rumours about a "previous" player and a MAJOR reason some around here were glad to see him go. But here it is a good thing? Haha...I don't think so.

When players determine strategy, you've reached the point of no return and you have to wonder what the point of keeping the manager is. I'd love to see one of ER's famous Winter GIFs where he is standing in front of tsunami or a nuclear explosion, completely unaware of the impending disaster.

[Beach_Red]

^ The meeting points to a lack of leadership, or lack trust in leadership of the manager.


Or a lack of communication. Although the set-up with this team seems ideal to create issues of leadership. It's very tough to take a guy who doesn't have a lot of experience and drop him in the middle of a place like TFC and then give him a mandate to change the whole organization and, by the way, also coach the team. It's not like taking over a big club with an infrastructure already in place and everyone knowing what their job is and being good at it. All this talk of the 'two camps' in TFC doesn't seem far fetched. And when there is a divided office like that, and some people will benefit if others fail... well, it's a tough place for an inexperienced guy, it's almost designed to fail.

I think Anselmi's saying, "They have to work it out," was a clear message that he wasn't going to make any changes during the season (probably doesn't have the budget for it), so now we have to hope that these guys are professionals.

[Roogsy]

Or a lack of communication. Although the set-up with this team seems ideal to create issues of leadership. It's very tough to take a guy who doesn't have a lot of experience and drop him in the middle of a place like TFC and then give him a mandate to change the whole organization and, by the way, also coach the team. It's not like taking over a big club with an infrastructure already in place and everyone knowing what their job is and being good at it. All this talk of the 'two camps' in TFC doesn't seem far fetched. And when there is a divided office like that, and some people will benefit if others fail... well, it's a tough place for an inexperienced guy, it's almost designed to fail.

I think Anselmi's saying, "They have to work it out," was a clear message that he wasn't going to make any changes during the season (probably doesn't have the budget for it), so now we have to hope that these guys are professionals.


I fully agree with this post. I want Winter gone because he is the wrong guy for the job. But the BLAME for hiring Winter falls directly on senior management of MLSE, Uncle Tom in particular. That guy shouldn't be in charge of a lemonade stand.

TFC needed a strong, experienced leader to come in and show them how to put together a competent club. Instead they STILL don't have anyone in TFC management that have ever actully built an entire successful organization. It's just a bunch of guys that did similar jobs elsewhere but with nowhere near the same seniority or authority and were basically thrown together because Anselmi felt like building the management of a club like video gamers build team rosters on FIFA. (That ones for you Jimmy Bald X!)

[trane]

I fully believe so.

This was in essence, to stave off a full outright mutiny. That is never a good sign. To be honest, it really looks like they've taken some authority away from their own manager...which if I remember correctly was one of the many rumours about a "previous" player and a MAJOR reason some around here were glad to see him go. But here it is a good thing? Haha...I don't think so.

When players determine strategy, you've reached the point of no return and you have to wonder what the point of keeping the manager is. I'd love to see one of ER's famous Winter GIFs where he is standing in front of tsunami or a nuclear explosion, completely unaware of the impending disaster.

Agreed. A football team should not be a democracy, the manager needs to be the dictator, maybe a benevolent dictator, but a dictator.

[trane]

I fully agree with this post. I want Winter gone because he is the wrong guy for the job. But the BLAME for hiring Winter falls directly on senior management of MLSE, Uncle Tom in particular. That guy shouldn't be in charge of a lemonade stand.

TFC needed a strong, experienced leader to come in and show them how to put together a competent club. Instead they STILL don't have anyone in TFC management that have ever actully built an entire successful organization. It's just a bunch of guys that did similar jobs elsewhere but with nowhere near the same seniority or authority and were basically thrown together because Anselmi felt like building the management of a club like video gamers build team rosters on FIFA. (That ones for you Jimmy Bald X!)

Agreed. Again.

[Oldtimer]

There is a certain amount of speculation as to what is really going on behind the scenes. I agree that it's not a good thing when you have to call a "clear the air" meeting. However, while it seems that the players had influence on playing style and formations the last game, it's unclear what that means. It could be either (1) There was a threatened player revolt and Winter handed over the keys to prevent open revolt or (2) a very green and inexperienced manager is starting to listen and not just boss his players (in which case it sucks that we have such an inexperienced coach, which relates to the need to fire the 3 wise men).

Knowing something of Dutch culture (some of my children have experienced Dutch background school teachers), I've noticed that the culture tends to be very authoritarian ("you do it with out question because I say so."). This would fly for someone like Frings, Koevs, or Soolsma, but would cause young North American players to get their backs up. That could explain any divide in the dressing room.

[Canary10]

Whatever happened in that meeting, I do find it interesting that they were back to Winter's preferred system and 4-3-3 formation (Trane, that distinction is for you) on Wednesday night. That tells me there is at least buy-in to what Winter is trying to do, despite whatever else may be going on. Winter went off-script the two prior games, and it clearly didn't sit well with the players.

[Beach_Red]

There is a certain amount of speculation as to what is really going on behind the scenes. I agree that it's not a good thing when you have to call a "clear the air" meeting. However, while it seems that the players had influence on playing style and formations the last game, it's unclear what that means. It could be either (1) There was a threatened player revolt and Winter handed over the keys to prevent open revolt or (2) a very green and inexperienced manager is starting to listen and not just boss his players (in which case it sucks that we have such an inexperienced coach, which relates to the need to fire the 3 wise men).

Knowing something of Dutch culture (some of my children have experienced Dutch background school teachers), I've noticed that the culture tends to be very authoritarian ("you do it with out question because I say so."). This would fly for someone like Frings, Koevs, or Soolsma, but would cause young North American players to get their backs up. That could explain any divide in the dressing room.

It would fly a lot better on a team that wasn't 0-8, even for those guys. Most athletes in every sport are used to doing what the coach says, even in North America ;). But no one likes to lose every game and desperate times call for desperate measures.

I'm really hoping that this has been a turning point for TFC and Winter.

[v00d00daddy]

I think we might be entering the realm of speculation beginning to be treated like fact.

People hearing Winter from the bench. People reading body language and analysing words from interviews.

Where exactly is the proof that the players dictated or had influence on the style of play against Montreal?

Do we really think that the players coached themselves to that win?

I don't. KD mentioned that Winter can't speak english. So who was it on the field that coached that team to a win?

Frings? He's the only guy on the team that has the experience and likely the technical acumen to know where everyone should be on the pitch and how they should play while there. But he doesn't speak english too well either.

I think we're grasping at straws here.

Nobody knows why they looked good against Montreal. The only thing left to do is wait and see if they revert back to shitting the bed and adding to the 0-8 league start, or is this the coin that's been flipped?

Who knows?

I just think it's bordering on absurd to suggest that this team is coaching itself. Maybe it's BDK...maybe they're listening to Winter. Maybe their has been some compromise between the coaching staff and the players.

But the mere fact that the team that was on the field on Wednesday is made up of very young players or journeymen (apart from Frings and maybe JDG) leads me to believe that, not only did they not coach themselves to victory, they're incapable of doing so.

Ryan Johnson was critical of previous game tactics...and he's well within his right to be so....but it's a HUGE stretch to suggest that he would know how to fix it and what it takes to turn this team around. I love his passion and all but he can barely play a throughball to a teammate....it's not likley that he's some tactical genius LOL

[v00d00daddy]

It would fly a lot better on a team that wasn't 0-8, even for those guys. Most athletes in every sport are used to doing what the coach says, even in North America ;). But no one likes to lose every game and desperate times call for desperate measures.

I'm really hoping that this has been a turning point for TFC and Winter.

This may be why I'm still supportive of Winter. It's because I was one of those players that believed that you do what your coach tells you to do. You shut up and play.

I know you say desperate times call for desperate measures...but as inexperienced as Winter is a coach...he still knows more about the game than every single player on that team (short of Frings who has come out and supported Winter).

So what's more desperate? Listening to the current coach...or listening to players that flat out don't know the game a fraction as much as the coach?

[Oldtimer]

It would fly a lot better on a team that wasn't 0-8, even for those guys. Most athletes in every sport are used to doing what the coach says, even in North America ;). But no one likes to lose every game and desperate times call for desperate measures.

I'm really hoping that this has been a turning point for TFC and Winter.

The difference is that coaches today have to earn it. In the old days you listened just because he had the whistle. Now it's different. Winter gets instant cred for his playing history, but he has to have some give and take with the players, hear them out, to get their respect.

0-8 is a symptom, not the cause of our problems.


Given that things aren't going to change anytime soon, like you I hope Winter can learn how to coach on the job.

[spark]

This may be why I'm still supportive of Winter. It's because I was one of those players that believed that you do what your coach tells you to do. You shut up and play.

I know you say desperate times call for desperate measures...but as inexperienced as Winter is a coach...he still knows more about the game than every single player on that team (short of Frings who has come out and supported Winter).

So what's more desperate? Listening to the current coach...or listening to players that flat out don't know the game a fraction as much as the coach?

I don't want to take this sideways but you made an interesting point that might be worth touching on - they might not be listening to the coach but the player on the field who, like you said, arguably has as much experience as he does. I don't think the language/communication is an issue (I'm referring to Frings btw) as I've heard players say his English is perfect he just doesn't feel comfortable using it w media. We saw in the Chicago game he didn't wait for Winter to change things up and unilaterally moved himself into midfield/forward positions. It's just my opinion but considering he's in the trenches with them, I'd think if Torsten says we need to attack but Winter wants to put 5 men back, the players will follow their captain.

[v00d00daddy]

The difference is that coaches today have to earn it. In the old days you listened just because he had the whistle. Now it's different. Winter gets instant cred for his playing history, but he has to have some give and take with the players, hear them out, to get their respect.

0-8 is a symptom, not the cause of our problems.


Given that things aren't going to change anytime soon, like you I hope Winter can learn how to coach on the job.

I hope they both learn.

I hope Winter learns how to take his players needs into consideration more

And

I hope the players (the young NA players for sure) learn that part of being a pro is executing what your coach demands of you.

[v00d00daddy]

I don't want to take this sideways but you made an interesting point that might be worth touching on - they might not be listening to the coach but the player on the field who, like you said, arguably has as much experience as he does. I don't think the language/communication is an issue (I'm referring to Frings btw) as I've heard players say his English is perfect he just doesn't feel comfortable using it w media. We saw in the Chicago game he didn't wait for Winter to change things up and unilaterally moved himself into midfield/forward positions. It's just my opinion but considering he's in the trenches with them, I'd think if Torsten says we need to attack but Winter wants to put 5 men back, the players will follow their captain.

Perhaps...but why then would frings be okay with lining up as a sweeper against the galaxy (where they got the needed results)?

I think Frings has too much experience to ignore the coach and do what he thinks is right and disrespect the coach.

If he did decide that Tfc needed to attack and that his teammates would follow their captain, why didn't it happen?

I think it's another stretch and leap.

[trane]

Whatever happened in that meeting, I do find it interesting that they were back to Winter's preferred system and 4-3-3 formation (Trane, that distinction is for you) on Wednesday night. That tells me there is at least buy-in to what Winter is trying to do, despite whatever else may be going on. Winter went off-script the two prior games, and it clearly didn't sit well with the players.


I do think that the dicussion seems to have been positive, and clearly they all seemed to be more on the same page against Montreal.

[trane]

Perhaps...but why then would frings be okay with lining up as a sweeper against the galaxy (where they got the needed results)?

I think Frings has too much experience to ignore the coach and do what he thinks is right and disrespect the coach.

If he did decide that Tfc needed to attack and that his teammates would follow their captain, why didn't it happen?

I think it's another stretch and leap.


Realy that is the only real difference between how we play a 4-1-2-2 wingers-1 CF, Frings pulled back to sweepers making us look like 5-2-2-1, or 3-4-2-1 in attack.

[FreekAce]

Knowing something of Dutch culture (some of my children have experienced Dutch background school teachers), I've noticed that the culture tends to be very authoritarian ("you do it with out question because I say so."). This would fly for someone like Frings, Koevs, or Soolsma, but would cause young North American players to get their backs up. That could explain any divide in the dressing room.[/QUOTE]

uh, yeah, those teachers most likely came here in the 50's and likely are good church going protestant folk. times were a bit different back then. modern dutch culture is pretty much the opposite of that. if anything north americans are way more concerned about keeping the peace and not making waves. the dutch are extremely forward and will generally always say whats on their mind. bdk is a good example of that. aron on the other hand is a bit more shy.

[Oldtimer]

uh, yeah, those teachers most likely came here in the 50's and likely are good church going protestant folk. times were a bit different back then. modern dutch culture is pretty much the opposite of that. if anything north americans are way more concerned about keeping the peace and not making waves. the dutch are extremely forward and will generally always say whats on their mind. bdk is a good example of that. aron on the other hand is a bit more shy.

It's probably mostly generational, then.

[FreekAce]

It's probably mostly generational, then.

had a couple of canadian buddies go over there and come back saying the women intimidated them ;)

[Pookie]

uh, yeah, those teachers most likely came here in the 50's and likely are good church going protestant folk. times were a bit different back then. modern dutch culture is pretty much the opposite of that. if anything north americans are way more concerned about keeping the peace and not making waves. the dutch are extremely forward and will generally always say whats on their mind. bdk is a good example of that. aron on the other hand is a bit more shy.

As a generalization, Dutch are also very direct.

I used the example of a coach who advised his youth players to "take the ball go around the fat kid." He was right. The fat kid was slow and there was a lot of space there.

A North American might look at the same situation and say "use your speed down the right side, they appear to be a little weaker over there"

Same objective, going around the fat kid. Two different approaches.

[Pookie]

So, now that there has been an assistant coaching change with a rumored eye to the future, let me ask:

If firing Winter meant that Brennan takes over as Interim Head Coach (or possible Head Coach without the Interim label), still want him gone?

[joeyjones]

So, now that there has been an assistant coaching change with a rumored eye to the future, let me ask:

If firing Winter meant that Brennan takes over as Interim Head Coach (or possible Head Coach without the Interim label), still want him gone?

no, but i think it would be Mariner that would the HC spot...

[Wooster_TFC]

So, now that there has been an assistant coaching change with a rumored eye to the future, let me ask:

If firing Winter meant that Brennan takes over as Interim Head Coach (or possible Head Coach without the Interim label), still want him gone?

No way. I'd take Winter over that every day of the week, and a million times on Sunday.

[Oldtimer]

Given the latest shenanigans with Brennan being promoted, etc., who still thinks that just getting rid of Winter, and not the 3 wise men, will do anything to solve TFC's problems?

[Auzzy]

^ All I know for sure now is that I don't know anything.

[ryan]

^ All I know for sure now is that I don't know anything.

Which means, based on TFC, you're qualified to be the Assistant or Head Coach of the 1st team, Director of Team and Player Operations and Executive Vice President.

[Roogsy]

I was reading a business article the other day that was discussing "value" in running a business. It used a baseball analogy and then ran a comparison of the top spending teams in the American league vs the Tampa Bay Rays.

http://advisoranalyst.com/advisor/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Screen-Shot-2012-05-16-at-8.59.58-AM.png

Despite that yawn­ing gap in pay­roll, in 2008 Tampa Bay won the Amer­i­can League East divi­sion title and has made the play­offs in each of the past two sea­sons, ahead of Boston. As for this year, last Fri­day in the five-team Amer­i­can League East, Tampa Bay was sec­ond behind the upstart Bal­ti­more Ori­oles, the Yan­kees fourth and the Red Sox in last place.

How to explain Tampa Bay’s suc­cess? In part it’s attrib­ut­able to its man­ager, Joe Mad­don, twice named Amer­i­can League Man­ager of the year – lead­er­ship truly does mat­ter, in sports as in busi­ness. But the other expla­na­tion is a strate­gic deci­sion by Tampa Bay’s own­er­ship and Gen­eral Man­ager Andrew Fried­man (named Sport­ing News 2008 Exec­u­tive of the year.) Instead of get­ting into pay­roll wars that they couldn’t win, their focus shifted to “doing more with less” by build­ing a pipeline of inex­pen­sive minor league tal­ent. This strat­egy has enabled Tampa Bay to com­pete with teams that out­spend them three and four to one.

I thought it was somewhat applicable here as TFC seem to have gone in the opposite direction of Tampa Bay. As in "less with more" rather than "more with less".

[Canary10]

I was reading a business article the other day that was discussing "value" in running a business. It used a baseball analogy and then ran a comparison of the top spending teams in the American league vs the Tampa Bay Rays.

http://advisoranalyst.com/advisor/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Screen-Shot-2012-05-16-at-8.59.58-AM.png

Despite that yawn*ing gap in pay*roll, in 2008 Tampa Bay won the Amer*i*can League East divi*sion title and has made the play*offs in each of the past two sea*sons, ahead of Boston. As for this year, last Fri*day in the five-team Amer*i*can League East, Tampa Bay was sec*ond behind the upstart Bal*ti*more Ori*oles, the Yan*kees fourth and the Red Sox in last place.

How to explain Tampa Bay’s suc*cess? In part it’s attrib*ut*able to its man*ager, Joe Mad*don, twice named Amer*i*can League Man*ager of the year – lead*er*ship truly does mat*ter, in sports as in busi*ness. But the other expla*na*tion is a strate*gic deci*sion by Tampa Bay’s own*er*ship and Gen*eral Man*ager Andrew Fried*man (named Sport*ing News 2008 Exec*u*tive of the year.) Instead of get*ting into pay*roll wars that they couldn’t win, their focus shifted to “doing more with less” by build*ing a pipeline of inex*pen*sive minor league tal*ent. This strat*egy has enabled Tampa Bay to com*pete with teams that out*spend them three and four to one.

I thought it was somewhat applicable here as TFC seem to have gone in the opposite direction of Tampa Bay. As in "less with more" rather than "more with less".

In terms of results we have gotten so far, yeah. But I'm not sure that's really true. I was just listening to the Bob de Klerk interview with de Vos and Wileman, and his goals is to have 10-12 academy players in the first team in the next few years. Really I think the focus is actually the same as Tampa Bay's. They want a pipeline of GTA born players coming up through to the first team. I think the DPs are viewed as necessary short-term requirement to keep the team competitive (cough) until these players start to make an impact.

[ensco]

^This book lays out what you are talking about re the Rays
http://www.amazon.com/The-Extra-2-Strategies-Baseball/dp/0345517652

The other point people make all the time about the Rays: players love playing there. Guys will run through walls for Joe Maddon.
http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120329&content_id=27749426&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

Until TFC addresses its confrontational style/history with players, we are going nowhere.

[ryan]

Well 4 top 4 picks (2 1sts) is probably more of it than Maddon IMO, but he is a great manager for that team no doubt.

[Roogsy]

^This book lays out what you are talking about re the Rays
http://www.amazon.com/The-Extra-2-Strategies-Baseball/dp/0345517652

The other point people make all the time about the Rays: players love playing there. Guys will run through walls for Joe Maddon.
http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120329&content_id=27749426&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

Until TFC addresses its confrontational style/history with players, we are going nowhere.

This...

[Pookie]

I was reading a business article the other day that was discussing "value" in running a business. It used a baseball analogy and then ran a comparison of the top spending teams in the American league vs the Tampa Bay Rays.

http://advisoranalyst.com/advisor/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Screen-Shot-2012-05-16-at-8.59.58-AM.png

Despite that yawn*ing gap in pay*roll, in 2008 Tampa Bay won the Amer*i*can League East divi*sion title and has made the play*offs in each of the past two sea*sons, ahead of Boston. As for this year, last Fri*day in the five-team Amer*i*can League East, Tampa Bay was sec*ond behind the upstart Bal*ti*more Ori*oles, the Yan*kees fourth and the Red Sox in last place.

How to explain Tampa Bay’s suc*cess? In part it’s attrib*ut*able to its man*ager, Joe Mad*don, twice named Amer*i*can League Man*ager of the year – lead*er*ship truly does mat*ter, in sports as in busi*ness. But the other expla*na*tion is a strate*gic deci*sion by Tampa Bay’s own*er*ship and Gen*eral Man*ager Andrew Fried*man (named Sport*ing News 2008 Exec*u*tive of the year.) Instead of get*ting into pay*roll wars that they couldn’t win, their focus shifted to “doing more with less” by build*ing a pipeline of inex*pen*sive minor league tal*ent. This strat*egy has enabled Tampa Bay to com*pete with teams that out*spend them three and four to one.

I thought it was somewhat applicable here as TFC seem to have gone in the opposite direction of Tampa Bay. As in "less with more" rather than "more with less".

Agreed. And Tampa invested in scouting and player development in order to ensure that their pipeline was full. Something we are relying almost exclusively on our Academy to produce.