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MrRobson
05-05-2012, 09:35 PM
Before I start, I would Like to say I have posted on these forums for awhile now, I have not trolled or any sort of negative comments towards TFC and the organization.

The vancouver whitecaps right now have 17 points after another incredible victory against the 2nd best team in the MLS. (san jose). They seem to have a chemistry and talent level which is remarkable considering it's only there 2nd full MLS season.

So my question is, What do the caps have that TFC do not, especially since VWC have been so impressive after two years.

Thanks guys.

narduch
05-05-2012, 09:38 PM
Better ownership.

Same with Montreal.

tfcleeds
05-05-2012, 09:39 PM
A front office that has passion for/knows something about the sport for one thing.

Yohan
05-05-2012, 09:43 PM
Investing in defence.

Whitecaps have a lot of the salary cap tied down in defence right now, but it's paid off big time for them this season so far. Best fullback pairing of Rochat and Lee Young Pyo (so far MLS Newcomer of the year IMO) and DeMerit and Bonjour have been solid as CBs. And Barry Robson due to join in July

MrRobson
05-05-2012, 09:44 PM
So do you guys think the player personnel on TFC is good enough to make the playoffs? or just ownership?

Beach_Red
05-05-2012, 09:45 PM
A couple of years ago (before we hired Soccer Solutions, the consultant using Klinsmann as a front man) Paul James wrote an article that compared the Vancouver FO to Toronto's and pointed out how Vancouver had three experienced guys in the roles of president, GM and coach and TFC started with no president (and still doesn't have one) and Mo Johnston, a guy with about six games coaching experience as both coach and GM. The truth is, it's amazing TFC didn't go 0-8 or worse the first year. The problems we have now are because the team actually won a few games in the first three seasons so MLSE was able to continue without having to pay for experienced front office staff or scouting or much of anything. It was inevitabke that set-up would hit a wall and fall apart.

OgtheDim
05-05-2012, 09:46 PM
There was a long term winning tradition of professionalism with the VWC that not only invested the team with credibility but was considered important by the team and taken as a responsibility. TFC did not have that.

And...ur President is a soccer man...........not always correct but a soccer man. And your new chair is miles above anybody TFC will get under current or the near future MLSE management.

Too bad you have to play in a Dome on turf.

69Chevy396
05-05-2012, 09:47 PM
Listen. Move MLSE to any other mls franchise and you would have the same result. Lousy hockey, basketball, football clubs. This is not about Toronto, or Vancouver, or Columbus...it is a business organization that is entirely focussed on making a buck and nothing else matters.

ArmenJBX
05-05-2012, 09:55 PM
Investing in their defence.
Younger designated players.
A stronger understanding of the way MLS works
And, perhaps, most importantly:

A STRONG CORE OF U.S. PLAYERS WITH MLS EXPERIENCE.

Yohan
05-05-2012, 10:00 PM
A STRONG CORE OF U.S. PLAYERS WITH MLS EXPERIENCE.

disagreed. Other than Cannon and DeMerit, Vancouver has a lot of players with MLS experience, but they aren't all Yanks

edit: This is actually DeMerit's 2nd season in MLS

OgtheDim
05-05-2012, 10:03 PM
And, lets face it, its easier not to make TFC's mistakes when TFC goes first.

ArmenJBX
05-05-2012, 10:05 PM
disagreed. Other than Cannon and DeMerit, Vancouver has a lot of players with MLS experience, but they aren't all Yanks

edit: This is actually DeMerit's 2nd season in MLS

I should rephrase - players brought up in the US system or playing with an MLS mindset.
Ultimately, Vancouver is built like an MLS team - strong in the midfield, mix of american and european players, and not Canadian heavy.
Just like Montreal is built the same.
Toronto FC are not built that way - Toronto FC is built on rookies, academy players and aging DPs.

Macksam
05-05-2012, 10:25 PM
I should rephrase - players brought up in the US system or playing with an MLS mindset.
Ultimately, Vancouver is built like an MLS team - strong in the midfield, mix of american and european players, and not Canadian heavy.
Just like Montreal is built the same.
Toronto FC are not built that way - Toronto FC is built on rookies, academy players and aging DPs.

We should have more long term success hopefully under these circumstances.

ArmenJBX
05-05-2012, 10:28 PM
Cant be longterm thinking if we have Frings and Koevermans; they're too old to make a lasting impact on this team.

Pookie
05-05-2012, 10:30 PM
disagreed. Other than Cannon and DeMerit, Vancouver has a lot of players with MLS experience, but they aren't all Yanks

edit: This is actually DeMerit's 2nd season in MLS

True. Based on MLS roster rules, they can't all be Americans. However, they do have a starting 11 that is mixed with International and US players. Not one Canadian started for them again.

I hate to harp on this same issue but it is fundamental. Our nation does not yet produce high quality MLS players. Vancouver's management team recognized this, fought to have the quota lowered and has built an MLS capable roster made up of experienced MLS players. They have used the "Domestic" roster spot on MLS capable/experienced Americans. They have also tapped into the international market quite well (Hassli and Le Toux as examples).

From the top down, Vancouver has adopted a strategy and made resources available to be able to see it through. Put their execs up against the leadership of Tom Ansemli and you can then see why their starting 11 is better than ours. It's as simple as resource allocation and roster management. We simply don't do either well.

We have 19 year old starters with 36 year old aging DPs as insurance.

Macksam
05-05-2012, 10:36 PM
True. Based on MLS roster rules, they can't all be Americans. However, they do have a starting 11 that is mixed with International and US players. Not one Canadian started for them again.


Which doesn't make much sense considering Tiebert would be a much better option than either Thorrington or Salgado. Yeah, they won which is good on them but it could've been much easier for them.

For us, Dunfield is the only notable Canadian that brings the team down, and even he isn't bad all the time.

Phil
05-05-2012, 10:38 PM
Vancouver brought in established MLS scoring. We brought in defensive player who don't know the MLS. When you add depth at scoring then look at our injuries then it becomes pretty apparent IMO.

burlington Red
05-05-2012, 10:44 PM
Vancouver and Montreal were both football clubs before they joined the mls, whereas we weren't, that's a point a lot of people are missing.

Pookie
05-05-2012, 10:46 PM
@macksam ^ perhaps but this is a key difference for them.

He's 19 and has played 503 of their 810 total minutes which means he is great depth as they have someone in front of him that is capable of contributing to results (17 points so far). And he is the only Canadian on their roster to see any minutes in any MLS game thus far this season.

Contrast that with one of our young Canadian stars like Morgan. He's a little older, 21, and has played 616 of our 720 minutes. Virtually every minute of every game with the exception of one. There is no depth. He's forced into a role that he might not be ready for because of the fact that we haven't identified anyone "Domestic" who can play in front of him.

Phil
05-05-2012, 10:48 PM
Vancouver and Montreal were both football clubs before they joined the mls, whereas we weren't, that's a point a lot of people are missing.

Yup, lets add Portland and Seattle to that list too.

Macksam
05-05-2012, 11:20 PM
@macksam ^ perhaps but this is a key difference for them.

He's 19 and has played 503 of their 810 total minutes which means he is great depth as they have someone in front of him that is capable of contributing to results (17 points so far). And he is the only Canadian on their roster to see any minutes in any MLS game thus far this season.

Contrast that with one of our young Canadian stars like Morgan. He's a little older, 21, and has played 616 of our 720 minutes. Virtually every minute of every game with the exception of one. There is no depth. He's forced into a role that he might not be ready for because of the fact that we haven't identified anyone "Domestic" who can play in front of him.

Tiebert has not played at all this season for Vancouver.

69Chevy396
05-05-2012, 11:20 PM
Vancouver and Montreal were both football clubs before they joined the mls, whereas we weren't, that's a point a lot of people are missing.

We are not missing that point at all. It was a factor in year one or two, but not now, not in year six. And, how do you explain TFC beating both of these teams in the ccl?

brad
05-05-2012, 11:39 PM
17 points.

TFCRegina
05-05-2012, 11:42 PM
An ownership group that's not completely apathetic.

An executive structure that isn't total shit.

A president, who despite being a total dick, knows soccer.

Auzzy
05-06-2012, 12:07 AM
What do the whitecaps have that TFC does not? A fucking clue.

Here in Toronto, they're Totally Fucking Clueless.

Alonso
05-06-2012, 12:40 AM
Vancouver and Montreal were both football clubs before they joined the mls, whereas we weren't, that's a point a lot of people are missing.


Yeah but after 6 years you would think a competent person/organization would have gotten its shit together no?

Alonso
05-06-2012, 12:45 AM
An ownership group that's not completely apathetic.

An executive structure that isn't total shit.

A president, who despite being a total dick, knows soccer.


This is huge to. In a recent article written by Mary Ornsby of the Toronto Star on a PR piece about Larry Tanenbaum there was mention of the Leafs, the Raptors and even the Blue Jays who aren't part of Larry's portfolio, but not a single word about TFC.... like a neglected step child.

Greatest Ripoff
05-06-2012, 12:50 AM
I should rephrase - players brought up in the US system or playing with an MLS mindset

Which players are these exactly?

Here is the lineup from today's match:

Joe Cannon - american, 307 mls matches
Young-Pyo Lee -korean 8 mls matches mostly played in europe
Martin Bonjour - argintine 7 mls matches only ever played in south america
Jay DeMerit - american 23 mls matches, american college, played in england almost all of his career
Alain Rochat - swiss, 29 mls matches only played in europe
Gershon Koffie - 20 year old ghanaian, 36 mls matches
Jun Marques Davidson - japanese, 8 mls matches mostly played in japan
Matt Watson - english moved to the US for college, 8 mls matches, mostly played in the nasl
Sebastien Le Toux - french, developed in the Rennes academy, 96 mls matches
Camilo Sanvezzo - brazilian, 38 mls matches played in brazil, malta and korea
Omar Salgado - 18 year old american developed by a mexican team, 15 mls matches

Subs used:
John Thorrington - south african raised in the us, 70 mls matches, mostly played in england (was with man utd! zero apearacnes though)
Eric Hassli - french, 34 mls matches, played in europe
Davide Chiumiento - swiss, 26 mls matches, played in europe

Greatest Ripoff
05-06-2012, 12:56 AM
Also in their mls existence, Vancouver has only had 3 of their total goals scored by Americans. Salgado, Salinas and Demerit all with 1 goal.

DoubleUp
05-06-2012, 01:29 AM
Which players are these exactly?

Here is the lineup from today's match:

Joe Cannon - american, 307 mls matches
Young-Pyo Lee -korean 8 mls matches mostly played in europe
Martin Bonjour - argintine 7 mls matches only ever played in south america
Jay DeMerit - american 23 mls matches, american college, played in england almost all of his career
Alain Rochat - swiss, 29 mls matches only played in europe
Gershon Koffie - 20 year old ghanaian, 36 mls matches
Jun Marques Davidson - japanese, 8 mls matches mostly played in japan
Matt Watson - english moved to the US for college, 8 mls matches, mostly played in the nasl
Sebastien Le Toux - french, developed in the Rennes academy, 96 mls matches
Camilo Sanvezzo - brazilian, 38 mls matches played in brazil, malta and korea
Omar Salgado - 18 year old american developed by a mexican team, 15 mls matches

Subs used:
John Thorrington - south african raised in the us, 70 mls matches, mostly played in england (was with man utd! zero apearacnes though)
Eric Hassli - french, 34 mls matches, played in europe
Davide Chiumiento - swiss, 26 mls matches, played in europe

Only thing that is apparent is that Vancouver starting line up is littered with seasoned professionals.

Once again: Men vs Boys

MrRobson
05-06-2012, 01:41 AM
I will say this tho, Young-Pyo Lee is probably the best defender in the entire MLS. That might sound crazy but watching him is clearly a treat, he is worldclass in every single fashion, even at his age, its remarkable talent.
Absolutely no clue how the caps managed to get this guy.

Cashcleaner
05-06-2012, 01:55 AM
I'm gonna be repeating much of what people here have already said, but here goes nothing...

More than anything, Vancouver has a corporate structure with a mandate to build and maintain a team that can win. From what I have seen, your owners and management have gone out of their way into cultivating a culture of winning. Heck, one of your four owners is himself a professional athlete! That in itself gives you a distinct advantage when it comes to establishing your team's framework.

Here in Toronto, we have a soccer team that plays fourth fiddle to the hockey club, basketball club, and real estate/development branch of the parent company. The corporate structure here is also older and more bureaucratic, and it seems less flexible to change or adapt to new trends. Throw in the fact that our de facto Club President Tom Anselmi had no prior experience running a soccer club and oversees multiple departments at MLSE and it's a recipe for disaster.

No one can really deny that the club is willing to spend money now, but for the first few seasons - ie: the most important time for any club - they were awfully stingy at times. Many have forgotten this, but it took a lot of kicking and screaming from the fans before the ownership brought in a Designated Player.

There's no other way to say it, but TFC stumbled coming out of the block and hasn't been able to get back into stride. We needed early successes to help create our club's culture and identity. The fans did all they could to help foster this while the executives did nothing. They got away with it then by throwing players and coaches under the bus, and I'm afraid they're going to do it again.

Pookie
05-06-2012, 06:43 AM
Tiebert has not played at all this season for Vancouver.

Sorry dude, you are corect. I have to look closer at the stats late at night. His minutes were from 2011. Which means on Rochat has logged minutes this year (Clarke's data unavailable). 327 in total.

Blowing Bubbles
05-06-2012, 07:47 AM
I will say this tho, Young-Pyo Lee is probably the best defender in the entire MLS. That might sound crazy but watching him is clearly a treat, he is worldclass in every single fashion, even at his age, its remarkable talent.
Absolutely no clue how the caps managed to get this guy.

Yeah, he has been superb, his quality is obvious to even a casual fan. I'm pretty sure there's a side arrangement going on with Kia that has facilitated this.

Yohan
05-06-2012, 08:07 AM
I will say this tho, Young-Pyo Lee is probably the best defender in the entire MLS. That might sound crazy but watching him is clearly a treat, he is worldclass in every single fashion, even at his age, its remarkable talent.
Absolutely no clue how the caps managed to get this guy.
He has stated that Whitecaps offer was the lowest from several bids he received, but for his family (esp kids) he wanted to come to Canada. Not a far fetched thing to do for Koreans

bach
05-06-2012, 08:11 AM
I will say this tho, Young-Pyo Lee is probably the best defender in the entire MLS. That might sound crazy but watching him is clearly a treat, he is worldclass in every single fashion, even at his age, its remarkable talent.
Absolutely no clue how the caps managed to get this guy.

This really shouldn't be a surprise.

Lee Young Pyo at one time was touted as the "best left back in Europe" by Martin Jol.

He's played in 3 World Cups, a Champions League Semi-final with PSV Eindhoven, one of the Korean National Team's best LB's in history, etc.

One of the main reasons he's playing in Vancouver and not Europe or the Middle East (huge financial possibilities) is he wants his two daughters to be given the chance for good education here in North America (Koreans are big on learning English in "English-native" countries).

He could have EASILY come to Toronto. Toronto has a larger Korean-Canadian community than Vancouver and honestly, a better portfolio of international schools.

I'm definitely booking a ticket for the VWC match and bringing my Korean flag to salute a great player.

RedDevils
05-06-2012, 10:20 AM
Envious of Vancouver and Montreal getting it right (although to be fair who ever is responsible for the SGs in Vancouver is proving to be even more arrogant and clueless about the culture than Beirne is).

It's more a question of what do the Whitecaps NOT have, and that's our wonderful FO that went out and got us Mo Gretsky and Shekshy Total Winter.

spe18
05-06-2012, 11:27 AM
But Philadelphia was also a new team without having previously played in a lower division.

narduch
05-06-2012, 11:41 AM
But Philadelphia was also a new team without having previously played in a lower division.

Even the current incarnation of San Jose was built from scratch.

TFC offered Frank Yallop the job back in 2006. Maybe once he learned about our shit FO he lost interest?

MrRobson
05-06-2012, 12:01 PM
This really shouldn't be a surprise.

Lee Young Pyo at one time was touted as the "best left back in Europe" by Martin Jol.

He's played in 3 World Cups, a Champions League Semi-final with PSV Eindhoven, one of the Korean National Team's best LB's in history, etc.

One of the main reasons he's playing in Vancouver and not Europe or the Middle East (huge financial possibilities) is he wants his two daughters to be given the chance for good education here in North America (Koreans are big on learning English in "English-native" countries).

He could have EASILY come to Toronto. Toronto has a larger Korean-Canadian community than Vancouver and honestly, a better portfolio of international schools.

I'm definitely booking a ticket for the VWC match and bringing my Korean flag to salute a great player.

Another shocking thing is how well he adapted to the MLS style of Soccer. I guess when you are a world class talent, it does not matter.

Pookie
05-06-2012, 12:03 PM
^ how did he end up in Vancouver? ie. where/how was he identified?

Beach_Red
05-06-2012, 01:13 PM
Even the current incarnation of San Jose was built from scratch.

TFC offered Frank Yallop the job back in 2006. Maybe once he learned about our shit FO he lost interest?

Or maybe they offered him the same one-year contract and a "handshake" deal for an extention if things went well...

flambe
05-06-2012, 01:31 PM
How about 26yrs of USSF/NASL experience?
A front office and ownership that have experience in football as apposed to MLSE who have been in the game for 6yrs.
Same can be said for Montreal (19yrs) and Portland (36yrs).

Code Red
05-06-2012, 01:50 PM
I should rephrase - players brought up in the US system or playing with an MLS mindset.
Ultimately, Vancouver is built like an MLS team - strong in the midfield, mix of american and european players, and not Canadian heavy.
Just like Montreal is built the same.
Toronto FC are not built that way - Toronto FC is built on rookies, academy players and aging DPs.

BINGO! Until that changes, we'll continue to see subpar football while the competition gets stronger each year. Simple as that.

RedDevils
05-06-2012, 01:57 PM
How about 26yrs of USSF/NASL experience?
A front office and ownership that have experience in football as apposed to MLSE who have been in the game for 6yrs.
Same can be said for Montreal (19yrs) and Portland (36yrs).

What about San Jose, Philly, and RSL? They don't have the decades of experience, but they went out and got people with decades of experience in the USSF and NCAA. We got Mo Gretsky and a guy who knows a lot about youth voetbal in the Netherlands.

Incompetence starts at the very top. Fire Anslemi, get us a president that knows the USSF pyramid and the NCAA. Fire Beirne, get us a guy who actually know what it means to run a football club not a Tim Horton's franchise. I suggest Dino Rossi :D.

Oldtimer
05-06-2012, 02:19 PM
What about San Jose, Philly, and RSL? They don't have the decades of experience, but they went out and got people with decades of experience in the USSF and NCAA. .

You need to drop RSL from that list. They picked a player with no coaching experience, much like TFC picked Winter, and their GM is an ex-player-turned-lawyer. It just happened to work out in their case.

RedDevils
05-06-2012, 02:30 PM
You need to drop RSL from that list. They picked a player with no coaching experience, much like TFC picked Winter, and their GM is an ex-player-turned-lawyer. It just happened to work out in their case.

No coaching experience, but happens to be American, played in the American High School system, and worked his way up the American minor leagues until he reached Dallas Burn. The man knows the American system. Their GM, you said it yourself, ex-player who's a lawyer. So he knows the USSF system somewhat and knows how to deal with paperwork.

I'll also add RSL's excellent South American scouts. I haven't seen an MLS squad have so much success with South American players since DCU a few years ago.

Anselmi is an engineer who worked in construction. I don't think he knows much about the USSF pyramid. Paul Beirne was a product of a lucky storm. This thing fell into his lap. The club flourished despite him.

spe18
05-06-2012, 02:32 PM
You need to drop RSL from that list. They picked a player with no coaching experience, much like TFC picked Winter, and their GM is an ex-player-turned-lawyer. It just happened to work out in their case.

Then the question is, how did it work out for RSL, and not for TFC?

69Chevy396
05-06-2012, 02:40 PM
You need to drop RSL from that list. They picked a player with no coaching experience, much like TFC picked Winter, and their GM is an ex-player-turned-lawyer. It just happened to work out in their case.

The only advantage former usl and nasl teams have over Toronto ended after 2008 or 2009 when TFC was no longer considered an expansion side. There are so many variables you guys are ignoring. How does one explain the Red Bulls rise from mediocrity in one season? Or Colorado winning the cup after having a horrible club for years, or New England sinking to TFC depths after close to a decade of prominance? Lets face it, while the quality of mls is not very high, building a competetive team given the monetary constraints is very difficult. And, it takes a lot of commitment and smarts by the head office to achieve continuous success. So, back to the argument, forget TFC, how does the usl or nasl experience of philly, montreal et al compare with teams such as colorado, new york, new england?

Auzzy
05-06-2012, 11:13 PM
In case TFC fans aren't feeling gloomy enough:

"Furlong applying Midas touch to Whitecaps"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/furlong-applying-midas-touch-to-whitecaps/article2424460/

Roogsy
05-07-2012, 12:50 AM
I'm gonna be repeating much of what people here have already said, but here goes nothing...

More than anything, Vancouver has a corporate structure with a mandate to build and maintain a team that can win. From what I have seen, your owners and management have gone out of their way into cultivating a culture of winning. Heck, one of your four owners is himself a professional athlete! That in itself gives you a distinct advantage when it comes to establishing your team's framework.

Here in Toronto, we have a soccer team that plays fourth fiddle to the hockey club, basketball club, and real estate/development branch of the parent company. The corporate structure here is also older and more bureaucratic, and it seems less flexible to change or adapt to new trends. Throw in the fact that our de facto Club President Tom Anselmi had no prior experience running a soccer club and oversees multiple departments at MLSE and it's a recipe for disaster.

No one can really deny that the club is willing to spend money now, but for the first few seasons - ie: the most important time for any club - they were awfully stingy at times. Many have forgotten this, but it took a lot of kicking and screaming from the fans before the ownership brought in a Designated Player.

There's no other way to say it, but TFC stumbled coming out of the block and hasn't been able to get back into stride. We needed early successes to help create our club's culture and identity. The fans did all they could to help foster this while the executives did nothing. They got away with it then by throwing players and coaches under the bus, and I'm afraid they're going to do it again.


Damn. Cash has been on freaking fire. Spot on with everything.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
05-07-2012, 01:01 AM
A front office that has passion for/knows something about the sport for one thing.

BINGO..!

We need Football people running the team...not BUISNESS people!....MLSE has and will never know f all about the game of football!

this is the biggest problem we have..

brad
05-07-2012, 08:16 AM
No coaching experience, but happens to be American, played in the American High School system, and worked his way up the American minor leagues until he reached Dallas Burn. The man knows the American system. Their GM, you said it yourself, ex-player who's a lawyer. So he knows the USSF system somewhat and knows how to deal with paperwork.

I'll also add RSL's excellent South American scouts. I haven't seen an MLS squad have so much success with South American players since DCU a few years ago.

Anselmi is an engineer who worked in construction. I don't think he knows much about the USSF pyramid. Paul Beirne was a product of a lucky storm. This thing fell into his lap. The club flourished despite him.

Kreis apparently has a way with the players as well. When signing Morales, he flew down to Argentina and personally convinced him that moving to a losing MLS team would be a good move, and sold him on his plan.

Winter could/should have that sort of pull with players based on his experience as a player, but he does not.

Yohan
05-07-2012, 11:25 AM
I will say this tho, Young-Pyo Lee is probably the best defender in the entire MLS. That might sound crazy but watching him is clearly a treat, he is worldclass in every single fashion, even at his age, its remarkable talent.
Absolutely no clue how the caps managed to get this guy.
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Vancouver+Whitecaps+star+bends/6570045/story.html

Just One Man
05-07-2012, 11:31 AM
The question isn't what does Vancouver have, it is what they don't have. MLSE.

trane
05-07-2012, 11:35 AM
I will say this tho, Young-Pyo Lee is probably the best defender in the entire MLS. That might sound crazy but watching him is clearly a treat, he is worldclass in every single fashion, even at his age, its remarkable talent.
Absolutely no clue how the caps managed to get this guy.

What both Vancouver and Montreal have world class defenders? That is impossible, we tried to get a solid defender over the winter and we could not get one. Which most mean, that none were available.

Just One Man
05-07-2012, 11:47 AM
What both Vancouver and Montreal have world class defenders? That is impossible, we tried to get a solid defender over the winter and we could not get one. Which most mean, that none were available.

"Over the winter"?!

I think you mean "over the last half decade."

AmherstNY_TFC
05-07-2012, 12:00 PM
One other point: last year, when they were struggling early on, they fired their coach. He was the guy that they had hired the year before to implement their initial plan. When that plan didn't work, they were not afraid to blow it up and go a different direction. I think the Whitecaps are exceeding even their own expectations. But, when they realized that what they set out to do wasn't happening, they were not afraid to make changes, even if, in the short-term, they were going to be laughed at for firing their coach weeks into the season.

TFC, on the other hand, has never had a plan until last season. We can (and have-at length) debate whether this was a good plan or not. But, management has, for the first four years of the team's existence, never really had a plan for what this club is supposed to be. There has never been an identity. Short-term measures to being immediate success trump moves made for long-term success. Ham-handed as it has been, there at least is a plan for long-term success.

Auzzy
05-07-2012, 12:25 PM
One other point: last year, when they were struggling early on, they fired their coach. He was the guy that they had hired the year before to implement their initial plan. When that plan didn't work, they were not afraid to blow it up and go a different direction. I think the Whitecaps are exceeding even their own expectations. But, when they realized that what they set out to do wasn't happening, they were not afraid to make changes, even if, in the short-term, they were going to be laughed at for firing their coach weeks into the season.

TFC, on the other hand, has never had a plan until last season. We can (and have-at length) debate whether this was a good plan or not. But, management has, for the first four years of the team's existence, never really had a plan for what this club is supposed to be. There has never been an identity. Short-term measures to being immediate success trump moves made for long-term success. Ham-handed as it has been, there at least is a plan for long-term success.

Just to clarify, WFC hired Teitur Thordarson in 2007, and he was their coach for a couple of years before they switched to MLS.

lobo
05-07-2012, 01:08 PM
Investing in their defence.
Younger designated players.
A stronger understanding of the way MLS works
And, perhaps, most importantly:

A STRONG CORE OF U.S. PLAYERS WITH MLS EXPERIENCE.



I should rephrase - players brought up in the US system or playing with an MLS mindset.
Ultimately, Vancouver is built like an MLS team - strong in the midfield, mix of american and european players, and not Canadian heavy.
Just like Montreal is built the same.
Toronto FC are not built that way - Toronto FC is built on rookies, academy players and aging DPs.

so ... canadian content is a problem???

i have no idea what an "MLS mindset' is, but whatever it is, i'm not buying it ... sounds like an excuse

the game has the same laws across the globe, it is played the same in europe. as it is in africa, as it is in north america ... if you were to suggest that player development is at different levels from one country or region to the next, i could understand that ... but an "MLS mindset" speaks to something completely different

ManUtd4ever
05-07-2012, 01:13 PM
I agree with sentiment regarding the need for a strong core of experienced MLS players. It's no coincidence that our most competitive squad (in league play) to date in 2009 was comprised of several battle hardened MLS veterans within the roster.

ArmenJBX
05-07-2012, 01:18 PM
We have no MLS players.
The "Canadian content" simply means these players haven't made the MLS yet.
We need players like Adam Moffat, Ben Zemanski, Micheal Farfan, Mac Kandji, Stephen Keel, Dejan Jakovic.
We HAVE TO HAVEplayers like Sebastien LeToux or Chris Wondowloski. We HAD that in De Rosario, and now we have NOTHING.

This is not an MLS team. This is more akin to some pseudo-CSL/NASL team with MLS players and, miraculously, three DPs.

prizby
05-07-2012, 05:05 PM
hmm...tommy soehn
no actual canadians getting playing time

Davenport
05-07-2012, 05:15 PM
The Whitecaps is an organisation that knows how to run a solid soccer club. It has done for 30 odd years.
The wankers who own TFC also own the biggest hockey team in the world and they're an absolute joke.
What hope have they of making a success in soccer ? None.

BigTingsGwan
05-07-2012, 05:49 PM
What do the whitecaps have that TFC does not?

Zero Voyageurs Cups.

Code Red
05-07-2012, 06:00 PM
What do the whitecaps have that TFC does not?

Zero Voyageurs Cups.

hahaha
Indeed! :thumbsup:

burlington Red
05-07-2012, 06:32 PM
We are not missing that point at all. It was a factor in year one or two, but not now, not in year six. And, how do you explain TFC beating both of these teams in the ccl?

the fact we are in year 6 and have still not figured it out while teams such as Montreal are closer to doing that in year one of mls, probably adds more argument to them being clubs beforehand. They had struture, fan base, an identity and more importantly a board (who knows North American football)well in place before they made the leap into mls.
The reality is we are no further along now than we were when we started, in fact, squad wise we are worse off.
Not saying this is the only reason, but it has played a part. The 4 former USL teams that have joined the mls are all in a better place than we are and that should tell us something about how to run a club, not perfectly as no club is, but a hell of a lot better than ours is currently.

rocker
05-07-2012, 06:42 PM
Vancouver brought in established MLS scoring. We brought in defensive player who don't know the MLS. When you add depth at scoring then look at our injuries then it becomes pretty apparent IMO.

But how do you explain Vancouver not scoring much?They are in the bottom half in offense.
Scoring was a problem last year as well. They actually are scoring slightly *fewer* goals per game this year than last year, when they stunk and finished worse than TFC did in 2007.

I think what's happened is Rennie has put together a different philosophy, a defense first, who-cares-if-its-pretty kind of thing. They have enough scoring talent that they can nick more goals than they give up. Balance.

It's interesting that people are praising the great Vancouver organization when they really fucked things up last year -- keeping a coach from the NASL who seemed uncomfortable with things.. then firing him... then keeping the guy who brought in the all the players, but letting their CEO go (Paul Barber). They messed up big time last year, but seem to have (small sample size, let's see how the season finished) righted the listing ship quickly with a low-scoring, keep it close, approach.

ensco
05-08-2012, 07:02 AM
This is the kind of thing that will ultimately cause people to give up, because of the hopelessness.

Agree that it's too soon to crown Vancouver role models for anything, but the bigger issue is real. We are not competing for talent. It's not just Lee. There are a whole bunch of excellent, veteran non-DP defenders that came into MLS this past offseason.

Is it WinterMariner? Is it ownership's reputation (players must know about all the fights players here have had with mgmt over handshake deals)? Something else?

Laurignano
05-08-2012, 04:27 PM
Everything has to come from the top. You can't win without the proper structure...I'm a strong believer if we were to sign the best possible coach for this club it would end up a difficult task to win here, but could still be achievable. If we don't have the proper organizational structure for 1) Accountability and 2) Direction/Vision then how could we possibly expect to win? TFC has a vision but is it properly being executed? I don't know!

This is essentially what Vancouver Whitecaps have...they have a history of winning and the ownership wants to win. They are taking babysteps but I can see them making the playoffs this year and even winning the Canadian Championship. I just hope that Winter allows a little bit more attacking of an attacking mentality when we come up against Montreal to have an opportunity to play Vancouver in the final. I'm sure players talk about the structure and atmosphere at TFC among one another in the MLS and/or even to other players who are seeking advice when coming here. This may even lead to us having a bad reputation, which equals a negative impact on attempting to sign solid players.

MrRobson
05-08-2012, 07:37 PM
Some fantastic points here.

The funny thing is tho, the whitecaps coming into this year was supposed to be a non-stop offensive dynamite (some had them pegged as the best offensive team in the entire MLS), But Instead with YP lee and bonjour on the back end, They have
Turned out to be a incredible defensive team that can score offense here and there.

Management is a huge reason clearly, a winning culture and smart personnel is another thing.

I also do believe having MLS players and vets help a ton instead of having a bunch of canadians on the team.

The scary part is the depth that the caps have on bench, when you have guys like mattocks, Mento's, hassli coming off the bench is ridiculous.

Greatest Ripoff
05-23-2012, 09:54 PM
What do the whitecaps have that TFC does not?

Zero Voyageurs Cups.


thought it was a good time to bring this one back up.

MartinUtd
05-23-2012, 10:06 PM
What do the whitecaps have that TFC does not?


An empty trophy cabinet

BOOYA!

Huyton
05-23-2012, 11:11 PM
Incompetence starts at the very top. Fire Anslemi, get us a president that knows the USSF pyramid and the NCAA. Fire Beirne, get us a guy who actually know what it means to run a football club not a Tim Horton's franchise. I suggest Dino Rossi :D.

Dino would be great! I got a ride on the Milltown FC team bus a couple of years ago and listened to him and Rafael Carbajal talking. I learned a lot just listening to the two of them. Rafa should be looking after the TFC Academy team (now he's no longer with Milltown).

I don't follow either hockey or basketball, but didn't MLSE go out and get guys to head those sports teams who had success elsewhere? I seem to remember that the basketball guy came from Phoenix and had managed to put together some good teams.

Auzzy
05-23-2012, 11:56 PM
Hmm, pretty quiet around here tonight. Maybe I can workie this thing.

Fort York Redcoat
05-24-2012, 06:41 AM
Hmm, pretty quiet around here tonight. Maybe I can workie this thing.

remember the rules. Pics or it didn't happen!g:D

Ageroo
05-24-2012, 07:30 AM
What do the whitecaps have that TFC does not?


An empty trophy cabinet

BOOYA!

Please add one more "A" to BOOYAA!

:scarf:

Abou Sky
05-24-2012, 07:44 AM
A bunch of hippies for fans...

Gazza
05-24-2012, 07:58 AM
Has whiny coach been mentioned yet?

WestStandGeoff
05-24-2012, 08:11 AM
Has whiny coach been mentioned yet?

Yeah - that post game interview with Rennie was awesome. Only thing missing was tears!

FIAF
05-24-2012, 08:21 AM
We need more Latinos in Toronto FC.

Fort York Redcoat
05-24-2012, 08:40 AM
We need more Latinos in Toronto FC.

Any level of skill required or just Latino?

ryan
05-24-2012, 03:22 PM
Guys, Guys, GUYS!!!

I found the very important answer to the OP's question!



http://www.sabotagetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/images-3.jpeg




They probably have that proudly on display next to their...umm...err...next to the....uhhh...hmm.

:hump:

FIAF
05-24-2012, 05:52 PM
Any level of skill required or just Latino?

We should pull a Sounders...

Fort York Redcoat
05-24-2012, 07:12 PM
We should pull a Sounders...

Still not very descriptive FIAF.

Greatest Ripoff
05-29-2013, 11:49 PM
What do the whitecaps have that TFC does not?

Zero Voyageurs Cups.


!!!!

FluSH
05-30-2013, 08:56 PM
A ROOF!
Help Supporters; Help our Team; get us a ROOF!

ag futbol
05-30-2013, 09:14 PM
Still not very descriptive FIAF.
I'm going to guess he means "aggressively naturalize our players to open up more intl spots"

Razor
05-30-2013, 09:26 PM
A ROOF!
Help Supporters; Help our Team; get us a ROOF!




^^ 100% Agree

Haddy
05-30-2013, 11:45 PM
TFC started with no president (and still doesn't have one)

Kevin Payne is President & General Manager

http://www.torontofc.ca/club/management-team


To answer the OP:

...I think we've all said it 10000000 times - Earl Cochrane's past football experience, or lack thereof, and the position he currently holds at TFC (not to mention his past positions), pretty much sums up how this club has been run.

I mean, I was varsity captain and multiple all-star in rugby. I had some success in the senior amateur ranks too. My career in communications is not too shabby either. Based on Coch's hiring, I figure if MLSE ever gets a pro rugby club I'll get hired immediately.

Oldtimer
05-31-2013, 07:57 AM
!!!!

I read through this thread, thinking it was current, then realized you'd resurrected a quite-old thread. ??????

Globetrotter
05-31-2013, 08:12 AM
I read through this thread, thinking it was current, then realized you'd resurrected a quite-old thread. ??????

I suggested 2 weeks ago that something be implemented to eliminate this nonsense.

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?34238-Auto-lock-of-threads

Fort York Redcoat
05-31-2013, 08:27 AM
Some people like to revisit old threads. I'd like to suggest that whoever resurrects make an actual post, though, adding relevance and an additional point to expand on.

Greatest Ripoff
05-31-2013, 08:21 PM
I read through this thread, thinking it was current, then realized you'd resurrected a quite-old thread. ??????


Because I posted this right after the final whistle blew and Vancouver still had 'zero voyageurs cups' AKA the answer to "what do the whitecaps have that TFC does not?". Would it make sense to start a new thread to show that Vancouver still has zero voyageurs cup?