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ExiledRed
05-02-2012, 09:01 PM
Aron Winter, I demand your resignation.

You have been nothing short of an embarrassment, and you have divided this fan-base like no other coach before you. Not even Mo.

We don't want you.

Go away.

-Ian Bailey. SSH since 2007. section 112 (2 seats)

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/cannon.jpg

billyfly
05-02-2012, 09:11 PM
Ever since Ian learned computers, he loves making images and stuff.

tfcleeds
05-02-2012, 09:12 PM
Tonight's match certainly wasn't what I would call a vote of confidence. DC will eat us alive.

Parkdale
05-02-2012, 09:13 PM
and you have divided this fan-base like no other coach before you. Not even Mo.

We don't want you.


wait... if the fan base is divided, then it must mean that some people still want him.
So when you say "we dont want you" you actually mean that you don't want him?

I know you were just waiting for a good reason to post that photoshop canon piece (nice work, btw), but it's clear that the jury is still out.

ExiledRed
05-02-2012, 09:13 PM
Ever since Ian learned computers, he loves making images and stuff.

I even made a career out of it, so what? are you co-signing this thread cause if not, you should maybe go start a 'please dont go' thread. Cause this man is resigning.

ExiledRed
05-02-2012, 09:14 PM
wait... if the fan base is divided, then it must mean that some people still want him.
So when you say "we dont want you" you actually mean that you don't want him?

I know you were just waiting for a good reason to post that photoshop canon piece (nice work, btw), but it's clear that the jury is still out.

I mean for the last year weve all been at each others throats over this guy.

you want to keep him?

Yohan
05-02-2012, 09:14 PM
I don't think Winter's going to resign after getting a draw away. lol

sully
05-02-2012, 09:14 PM
DeRo and Santos coming to take this defense apart on Saturday! It's too tragic.

billyfly
05-02-2012, 09:15 PM
I think Winter should go. But I want to see you make a .gif of it.

Benficachop20
05-02-2012, 09:16 PM
Didn't lose today, but doesn't excuse the pathetic display i had to watch. Winter has got to go, he has no idea what he's doing.

Parkdale
05-02-2012, 09:17 PM
I mean for the last year weve all been at each others throats over this guy.

you want to keep him?


I never said I want to keep him, but if we have been at each other's throats over it, then clearly someone is taking the other side of the argument.

Code Red
05-02-2012, 09:17 PM
Which team was the expansion side? The guys in the blue or the guys in the white? I couldn't tell.

narduch
05-02-2012, 09:17 PM
Winter probably bought himself at least a week with this result. Tying 0-0 in the first leg of a 2-leg Cup series on the road is a good result.

That was boring as hell though. Don't think we will be seeing many 'TFC were unlucky' posts.

Roogsy
05-02-2012, 09:19 PM
When you can buy yourself time by drawing an expansion side with some of the most boring soccer I've ever seen from this club (wait! I thought we were playing exciting soccer!), you know the expectations have been set way too low.

I will pop a bottle of champagne the day this clown either gets sacked or resigns.

And take Anselmi with you.

Signed:

Pierce Brosnan

Canary10
05-02-2012, 09:22 PM
So now you want exciting football, not scratching out a draw?! You guys are too much and waaayyyyy too predictable.

Max_TO
05-02-2012, 09:22 PM
That has to be TFC's worst played game of the season and anyone claiming a victory out of that is truly grasping at straws :(

I feel for our guys and you can just see the life being sucked out from them , the look on there faces week in and week out speak volumes :(

Great guys , poor management , and no consistency with played players and positions :(

Roogsy
05-02-2012, 09:24 PM
So now you want exciting football, not scratching out a draw?! You guys are too much and waaayyyyy too predictable.


Not me, I don't buy into this "entertaining soccer" bullshit. But since it is a large part of the argument in favour of Winter, I'd really like an explanation for what we saw out there tonight.

Lumpy
05-02-2012, 09:27 PM
The majority of fans want to keep him for now. Accept it. A draw on the road is a good result.

kaos197O
05-02-2012, 09:28 PM
So now you want exciting football, not scratching out a draw?! You guys are too much and waaayyyyy too predictable.
I don't think that's fair. Clearly Winter didn't have enough confidence in his group to win the way he wanted to so he played for a draw. Didn't even try to win. We were lucky to get the draw......got burned often even while bunkering down.

Tonight's game was sad. Is this really where we are at?

ag futbol
05-02-2012, 09:28 PM
^ really? "a majority of fans"? I think more like a portion of this message board and even less of the general public.

Rene Kingsriver
05-02-2012, 09:28 PM
This is the perfect result, if we'd lost Winter would've gone and we'd probably be out of the VC. Instead we'll probably get slaughtered by DC and De Ro will get to give MLSE a colossal middle finger, Winter will go. Whoever takes over beats Montreal next week (usually happens first game when a new coach is in charge), we go on a record breaking run in the MLS culminating in a glorious win on a chilly late October afternoon in Columbus sealing our place in the play-offs.

Couchy81
05-02-2012, 09:29 PM
Not me, I don't buy into this "entertaining soccer" bullshit. But since it is a large part of the argument in favour of Winter, I'd really like an explanation for what we saw out there tonight.

Lack of skill from individual players. You can change up the formation as much as you want but in the end comes down to can you dribble, can you pass, and can you think one play ahead of your opponent. Clearly our players can't.

ensco
05-02-2012, 09:31 PM
Awful.

I think the best scenario is status quo, now that we know we'll have new overlords within weeks.

If Winter quits, which he might, great, put Mariner in.

If he has to be fired, put Mariner in as interim. Failing that, Dichio as an interim.

I want Bell/Rogers nominee to make the call properly, on Winter's replacement.

Max_TO
05-02-2012, 09:31 PM
The majority of fans want to keep him for now. Accept it. A draw on the road is a good result.

That performance did nothing but keep me up way to late :(
Once again , I feel for our guys and games such as that do nothing to lift the players spirits :(

ExiledRed
05-02-2012, 09:33 PM
Lack of skill from individual players. You can change up the formation as much as you want but in the end comes down to can you dribble, can you pass, and can you think one play ahead of your opponent. Clearly our players can't.

Can winter out-think another coach?

iy12l
05-02-2012, 09:36 PM
Please make more pics, that pic was hilarious! Anyways, we sohlud appoint Bob de Klerk or Rongen as head coach. Aron is making this team worse every game.

Ajax TFC
05-02-2012, 09:37 PM
Signed:

Pierce Brosnan
Holy shit

Couchy81
05-02-2012, 09:40 PM
Can winter out-think another coach?

Probably not as he hasn't shown any reason he can, his lineups/substitutions have been ridiculous since he got here, but at the same time I don't see individual performance from any player that merits hope, we will need some player turnaround to turn this team around.

ExiledRed
05-02-2012, 09:54 PM
I know you were just waiting for a good reason to post that photoshop canon piece (nice work, btw), but it's clear that the jury is still out.

actually, Sparks.

I made it in the last five minutes of the game.

Anybody else want to play Winterzilla?

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/template.jpg

__wowza
05-02-2012, 09:56 PM
Aron Winter, I demand your resignation.

You have been nothing short of an embarrassment, and you have divided this fan-base like no other coach before you. Not even Mo.

We don't want you.

Go away.

-Ian Bailey. SSH since 2007. section 112 (2 seats)



http://i.imgur.com/jNAAJ.gif

ExiledRed
05-02-2012, 09:56 PM
hahaha! nice

TFCRegina
05-02-2012, 09:59 PM
The majority of fans want to keep him for now. Accept it. A draw on the road is a good result.

You and another guy don't constitute a majority.

james
05-02-2012, 10:03 PM
i have never seen a team have such a shit start in my life, but we have been shit for 5 years in a row now and have had what +200 plus players and 10 coaches? ( i don't know what the real number is but its got to be fucken high) so i i don't even know if firing the coach is the solution.

ExiledRed
05-02-2012, 10:04 PM
i have never seen a team have such a shit start in my life, but we have been shit for 5 years in a row now and have had what +200 plus players and 10 coaches? ( i don't know what the real number is but its got to be fucken high) so i i don't even know if firing the coach is the solution.

I dont want him fired. He doesnt deserve another penny. I want him to grow a pair and resign or leave 'by mutual consent'

bman27
05-02-2012, 10:30 PM
The majority of fans want to keep him for now. Accept it. A draw on the road is a good result.
Wrong, I would say the majority of fans are completely apathetic at year 6 of this gong show, those of us left could be a different story. the night of the march 7th, would you say barely scrapping out a draw against an expansion side, the side that is suppose to be our rival none the less, would be acceptable?

lerxst
05-02-2012, 10:51 PM
Really? And then what? What would that be? 5 coaches in 6 years or something. No thanks. Let him finish the season otherwise no one will want to coach here and I wouldn't blame them.

Roogsy
05-02-2012, 10:54 PM
So the reason we don't want him gone is not because he is capable of the job but because we think (despite no proof) that it would cause no other coach to come here? Shouldn't the only argument for keeping him be that he's the right guy for the job?

tfcleeds
05-02-2012, 10:54 PM
At this point, how many coaches we've had shouldn't be a concern. What should be is a very real possibility we will set all kinds of new records for futility in this league if change doesn't occur soon. How many managers will want to come here then?

ExiledRed
05-02-2012, 10:59 PM
Really? And then what? What would that be? 5 coaches in 6 years or something. No thanks. Let him finish the season otherwise no one will want to coach here and I wouldn't blame them.

Thats why I want him to resign. No other coach would expect to come here, go 0-7 in their second season and not get canned.

lerxst
05-02-2012, 11:04 PM
"So the reason we don't want him gone is not because he is capable of the job but because we think (despite no proof) that it would cause no other coach to come here?"

Yep

"Shouldn't the only argument for keeping him be that he's the right guy for the job?"

Nope

Roogsy
05-02-2012, 11:06 PM
"So the reason we don't want him gone is not because he is capable of the job but because we think (despite no proof) that it would cause no other coach to come here?"

Yep

"Shouldn't the only argument for keeping him be that he's the right guy for the job?"

Nope

:facepalm:

As I often say to my wife: "You can't fight crazy!"

bman27
05-02-2012, 11:06 PM
Really? And then what? What would that be? 5 coaches in 6 years or something. No thanks. Let him finish the season otherwise no one will want to coach here and I wouldn't blame them.

I don't buy it, This team could also be seen by a good manager as an ideal project, after 6 years of failure, being the man who dragged this franchise from nothing to at least the playoffs, if not glory, would immortalize them to this fan base, and do wonders for a CV. waiting till the end of the season wouldn't change the number of managers we have had, lets finally learn from our mistakes.

lerxst
05-02-2012, 11:11 PM
At this point, how many coaches we've had shouldn't be a concern. What should be is a very real possibility we will set all kinds of new records for futility in this league if change doesn't occur soon. How many managers will want to come here then?

I'm sure they can't wait to follow in the footsteps of both Preki and Carter. Those two had long and wonderful coaching careers here, not to mention a great relationship with Anselmi and upper management. A bit of a pattern I see developing here.

Or maybe we should bring in Rongen to basically play the exact same system. That's precisely the same foundation that our academy is being built on; attacking football.

lerxst
05-02-2012, 11:14 PM
I don't buy it, This team could also be seen by a good manager as an ideal project, after 6 years of failure, being the man who dragged this franchise from nothing to at least the playoffs, if not glory, would immortalize them to this fan base, and do wonders for a CV. waiting till the end of the season wouldn't change the number of managers we have had, lets finally learn from our mistakes.

So that he can win 6 games this year with the promise for better times in 2013. Then when we go 0-5-0 to start the new season we can meet up on here again for the annual "fire the fucking coach" jircle cerk. Can't wait.

Or maybe we give him a chance to at least finish out the season.

bman27
05-02-2012, 11:15 PM
Carter, who left when he figured out this gong show and Preki who lost both the management and his room? not the greatest examples. I can only hope that rongen is getting the academy to play "attacking football" cause we have not seen much of that with the senior squad lately

lerxst
05-02-2012, 11:15 PM
:facepalm:

As I often say to my wife: "You can't fight crazy!"

Derrrrp!!! nope.

bman27
05-02-2012, 11:20 PM
So that he can win 6 games this year with the promise for better times in 2013. Then when we go 0-5-0 to start the new season we can meet up on here again for the annual "fire the fucking coach" jircle cerk. Can't wait.

Or maybe we give him a chance to at least finish out the season. if any Coach in any sport goes 0-6 to start any season, I would expect any franchise with any ambition at all to at least have a review of their manager. If they hire a manger who brings in a system that works with the players he has to work with and brings effective results, then you hope to god you are not 0-6 to start the year.

lerxst
05-02-2012, 11:24 PM
Carter, who left when he figured out this gong show and Preki who lost both the management and his room? not the greatest examples. I can only hope that rongen is getting the academy to play "attacking football" cause we have not seen much of that with the senior squad lately

Of course. The Preki player mutiny because a few guys didn't like the defensive system that produced a decent start. I do recall Dasovic's triumphant reign after the fact. The playoffs were wonderful. :noidea:

ExiledRed
05-02-2012, 11:25 PM
Or maybe we give him a chance to at least finish out the season.

And then we can wait until January to find the next guy, and he can have a whole season of excuses too.

enough!

ExiledRed
05-02-2012, 11:26 PM
Of course. The Preki player mutiny because a few guys didn't like the defensive system that produced a decent start. I do recall Dasovic's triumphant reign after the fact. The playoffs were wonderful. :noidea:

Preki and Mo were corrupt.

done.

lerxst
05-02-2012, 11:26 PM
if any Coach in any sport goes 0-6 to start any season, I would expect any franchise with any ambition at all to at least have a review of their manager. If they hire a manger who brings in a system that works with the players he has to work with and brings effective results, then you hope to god you are not 0-6 to start the year.

If we go 0-6-0 with this new victim then I think the personnel on the field might have something to do with it.

lerxst
05-02-2012, 11:27 PM
And then we can wait until January to find the next guy, and he can have a whole season of excuses too.

enough!

So I guess the answer is we're perpetually buggered.

Yohan
05-02-2012, 11:30 PM
Preki and Mo were corrupt.

done.
Preki was corrupt? proof? being Mo's buddy doesn't mean the guy is also corrupt

TFCRegina
05-02-2012, 11:32 PM
Bring back Chris Cummins.

TFCRegina
05-02-2012, 11:33 PM
Preki was corrupt? proof? being Mo's buddy doesn't mean the guy is also corrupt

Because giving contracts to players based solely on the fact that his brother was their agent isn't corrupt.

bman27
05-02-2012, 11:35 PM
If we go 0-6-0 with this new victim then I think the personnel on the field might have something to do with it.
But is it not up to a manager to field a competitive team, direct the style they play in, and decided who is good enough to work in what he wants to do? I am all for player accountability, but when you are trying to play a system that is clearly above they head of the majority of your team, causing them to make mistakes that would be minimized by a style more suited to their skill set. then questions need to be asked of the manager.

Yohan
05-02-2012, 11:35 PM
Because giving contracts to players based solely on the fact that his brother was their agent isn't corrupt.hrm. i did not know this

lerxst
05-02-2012, 11:47 PM
But is it not up to a manager to field a competitive team, direct the style they play in, and decided who is good enough to work in what he wants to do? I am all for player accountability, but when you are trying to play a system that is clearly above they head of the majority of your team, causing them to make mistakes that would be minimized by a style more suited to their skill set. then questions need to be asked of the manager.

We don't know that they aren't. In fact we don't know a damned thing about what's going on behind the scenes. For all we know Mariner is directing the show and Winter is stuck with these taints who really shouldn't be on the field anyway. In fact I'm pretty sure Winter highlighted that lack of skill in a recent quote not too long ago.

bman27
05-02-2012, 11:59 PM
We don't know that they aren't. In fact we don't know a damned thing about what's going on behind the scenes. For all we know Mariner is directing the show and Winter is stuck with these taints who really shouldn't be on the field anyway. In fact I'm pretty sure Winter highlighted that lack of skill in a recent quote not too long ago. It's great that he realizes the lack of skill. but he has shown absolutely nothing in the way of trying to adapt to the pieces he does have.

Think about it this way

If you are cooking a steak dinner, but then release your steak has gone off, you don't cook chicken the same way and try to serve it to people as steak, you call the chicken for what it is. Sure it might not have been a steak dinner, and everyone was looking forward to it. but the chicken got the job done.

Lets stop pushing square pegs into round holes here

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 12:02 AM
We don't know that they aren't. In fact we don't know a damned thing about what's going on behind the scenes. For all we know Mariner is directing the show and Winter is stuck with these taints who really shouldn't be on the field anyway. In fact I'm pretty sure Winter highlighted that lack of skill in a recent quote not too long ago.

Well we might as well just stop judging then, because its possible that the mafia will kill the coaches family if he wins a game.

ArmenJBX
05-03-2012, 12:14 AM
What I don't understand is why do we need a manager that is stuck on one formation?
Isn't that an archaic style of coaching?

Really, if we're going to play a 4-3-3 every single game then why do we even need Aron Winter? What does he bring to the table?

Does any other manager in this league function on the basis that they have one formation only and they must not deviate from it, period?

Why is that the case in Toronto? Why is it a sin to 4-4-2? A manager's primary job is to bring wins for the team he is managing - end of story. If you are Aron Winter and you see that what you are doing isn't working, well then, it's time you change something, isn't it?

tl;dr - Why are we restricted to a 4-3-3?

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 12:17 AM
Oh lord, the football gods hate me.

Roogsy
05-03-2012, 12:18 AM
Preki was corrupt? proof? being Mo's buddy doesn't mean the guy is also corrupt

I'd recommend you have a convo with some of the RPBs that have inside info on Preki. He may have been worse than Mo.

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 12:24 AM
has he resigned yet?

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 12:25 AM
how about now?

ArmenJBX
05-03-2012, 12:25 AM
Ah, Preki.

The story of Preki can be summarized by one Mr. Joseph Nane.

Bring in a player to the MLS SuperDraft combine who was not invited.
Sign him with a second round draft pick.
Start him early in the season.
Consistently give him minutes, when he is so raw, so useless, that a place in an MLS side seems almost ridiculous.
Find out Preki's brother is a player agent and Joseph Nane is his "top client."

Suddenly the world makes sense again.

Chris Wren
05-03-2012, 12:47 AM
Saturday could be TFC's rock bottom. I'm going to celebrate regardless. A win is a win. I'll forever celebrate those (and if magic is to happen, the beginning of something Disneyesque) . A loss is history. We will have been through the worst of anyone. All shit talking will forever bounce off of us because we have been through Hell and come out the other side (assuming we ever get our shit together). I'm not a religious man, but I'm about to start praying.

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 01:13 AM
ok im going to sleep.

Wake me up when he resigns.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/fireball.jpg

Richard
05-03-2012, 01:28 AM
What I don't understand is why do we need a manager that is stuck on one formation?
Isn't that an archaic style of coaching?

Really, if we're going to play a 4-3-3 every single game then why do we even need Aron Winter? What does he bring to the table?

Does any other manager in this league function on the basis that they have one formation only and they must not deviate from it, period?

Why is that the case in Toronto? Why is it a sin to 4-4-2? A manager's primary job is to bring wins for the team he is managing - end of story. If you are Aron Winter and you see that what you are doing isn't working, well then, it's time you change something, isn't it?

tl;dr - Why are we restricted to a 4-3-3?

Because MLSE listened to fans who hated "Preki Ball"(rightfully so) then hired a German to ask which attacking system is best. The result being the 4-3-3 and Ajax model. Problem is when an organization(MLSE) listens to fans about how to play(exciting football) it never works, winning was not a large part of the equation many would think when consulting with Klinnsman and MLSE wanted to apease fans ideals(needed season renewals) of "exciting football". Any other formation(probably mandated by the marketing department at MLSE) would be seen as; "hoof ball Preki Ball" god knows how we hate to watch that shit but love to loose beautifully.

Roogsy
05-03-2012, 03:11 AM
Because MLSE listened to fans who hated "Preki Ball"(rightfully so) then hired a German to ask which attacking system is best. The result being the 4-3-3 and Ajax model. Problem is when an organization(MLSE) listens to fans about how to play(exciting football) it never works, winning was not a large part of the equation many would think when consulting with Klinnsman and MLSE wanted to apease fans ideals(needed season renewals) of "exciting football". Any other formation(probably mandated by the marketing department at MLSE) would be seen as; "hoof ball Preki Ball" god knows how we hate to watch that shit but love to loose beautifully.

I find this issue about how people hated "Prekiball" to be a distraction. A diversion.

What people hated more was losing. But MLSE didn't really pay attention to that much did they?

So instead, MLSE grabbed on to this issue about "attractive football" and ignored the much larger and more important issue of actually being competitive. And low and behold it has become the rallying cry from many supporters. Well...not me sir. To me, winning came first and style came second.

I bet they thought by bringing in this system, everything else was going to magically fall into place. But you know what they say about assumptions...

narduch
05-03-2012, 05:33 AM
has he resigned yet?

I still think Winter is playing chicken with management. He wants to be paid his full 3 years.

TFC needs to move fast though. Let's get the new management team in ASAP so that they have 2 transfer windows available to get ready for next year. That's right, its May 3 and I'm talking about next season. Its depressing.

Lumpy
05-03-2012, 05:49 AM
I still think Winter is playing chicken with management. He wants to be paid his full 3 years.

TFC needs to move fast though. Let's get the new management team in ASAP so that they have 2 transfer windows available to get ready for next year. That's right, its May 3 and I'm talking about next season. Its depressing.

Sort of doubt he's playing chicken. He has a three year contract so he will be paid anyway. Maybe the theory that he's gone crazy (because he played for a draw- on the road - in an away match-- of a two-leg series) is a better fit.

mdc 77
05-03-2012, 06:51 AM
On formations...we did not play 4-3-3 last night, that was something like a 4-5-1 but really nobody knows what the hell that was. Awful stuff, the fact that Montreal didn't find a way to win actually might prove Winter was right about Montreal not being that good, or more likely we were incredibly lucky.

ensco
05-03-2012, 06:54 AM
Ah, Preki.

The story of Preki can be summarized by one Mr. Joseph Nane.

Bring in a player to the MLS SuperDraft combine who was not invited.
Sign him with a second round draft pick.
Start him early in the season.
Consistently give him minutes, when he is so raw, so useless, that a place in an MLS side seems almost ridiculous.
Find out Preki's brother is a player agent and Joseph Nane is his "top client."

Suddenly the world makes sense again.

Mista made all the other examples pale. That was serious money.

Oblio2
05-03-2012, 07:14 AM
I think Winter shoudl resign. His reign has been terrible but, blowing it all up and starting again...is that a good option, at this point in the season?

koryo
05-03-2012, 07:18 AM
The majority of fans want to keep him for now. Accept it. A draw on the road is a good result.

A 0-0 draw on the road, in a two-legged semi-final, is in fact a bad result.

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 07:28 AM
A 0-0 draw on the road, in a two-legged semi-final, is in fact a bad result.

For the new people.

This is a two leg game, with aggregate and away goals counting for 2 in a tiebreak situation.

It is not a league match, or a group stage game, and there are no points awarded for a draw.

0-0 away in the first leg is a terrible result, it puts us on the back foot in our own stadium and lets Montreal into the final on a score draw.

we MUST win to progress, Montreal only has to tie us. This was not a good result. Trust me, Ive been watching this game a while.

Phil
05-03-2012, 07:36 AM
For the new people.

This is a two leg game, with aggregate and away goals counting for 2 in a tiebreak situation.

It is not a league match, or a group stage game, and there are no points awarded for a draw.

0-0 away in the first leg is a terrible result, it puts us on the back foot in our own stadium and lets Montreal into the final on a score draw.

we MUST win to progress, Montreal only has to tie us. This was not a good result. Trust me, Ive been watching this game a while.

Its not good, no argument but loosing would have been worse. I think he will get his chance to show what he can do over the next two games, then the fat lady might start warming up.

ryan
05-03-2012, 07:47 AM
You and another guy don't constitute a majority.

You must not know much about Canadian politics then.

Oldtimer
05-03-2012, 07:51 AM
Actually, Montreal has to score to progress, in regular, extra time, or on PKs, no matter what. 0-0 doesn't put them through, but goes to PKs. A 1-1 or a 2-2 scoreline would put them through.

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 07:56 AM
Actual, Montreal has to score to progress, in regular, extra time, or on PKs, no matter what. 0-0 doesn't put them through. A 1-1 or a 2-2 scoreline would put them through.

Oh dear.

WE have to score also. There is NO eventuality where we can progress without scoring or going to penalties, and we cant gain an advantage with the away goal.
You cannot spin this any other way, we are at the disadvantage and Montreal has the edge on us.

I mean have we won a game at home yet, this year?

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 07:58 AM
Its not good, no argument but loosing would have been worse. I think he will get his chance to show what he can do over the next two games, then the fat lady might start warming up.

No Phil, losing 2-1 away is technically better than getting 0-0. losing 3-2 would be even better.

Phil
05-03-2012, 08:04 AM
No Phil, losing 2-1 away is technically better than getting 0-0. losing 3-2 would be even better.

Sorry I didn't outline all the scenarios with you. I agree those would be better results because of the away goals. However loosing 1-0 would be worse.

KdotOdot
05-03-2012, 08:19 AM
Yeah I miss Preki.

In the last few years we have never had a manager last for more than one season. I don't know how we're suppose to build a winning team with so many changes being made on a fucking weekly basis ffs. Preki could have given us a playoff spot had he stayed I think. Jesus I mean have you seen the game being played out there? Seriously? These guys don't know how to play ball man, let alone an attacking game. Preki was at least trying to teach them the basics, possesion and control. Sure he might have been corrupt and sneaky and sure he erected the Serbian national flag all over the stadium but really, is Joeseph Nane any worse that Dunnfeild?

Hate this team more and more everyday man.

Beach_Red
05-03-2012, 08:23 AM
I think Winter shoudl resign. His reign has been terrible but, blowing it all up and starting again...is that a good option, at this point in the season?

But those aren't the only two options. Maybe this team could do something radical like conduct a search for a new manager and look at more than one candidate and hire one who can use what's here as a starting point - why would he have to start over?

It's kind of depressing to read about the Montreal Canadiens search for a GM and how well it was carried out. I hope th guy they got flops because I don't want Montreal to win, but I like the way they handled the hiring and I wish we could do that here.

Brooker
05-03-2012, 08:25 AM
Johnny Carver's!!!!!

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 08:28 AM
Yeah I miss Preki.

In the last few years we have never had a manager last for more than one season. I don't know how we're suppose to build a winning team with so many changes being made on a fucking weekly basis ffs. Preki could have given us a playoff spot had he stayed I think. Jesus I mean have you seen the game being played out there? Seriously? These guys don't know how to play ball man, let alone an attacking game. Preki was at least trying to teach them the basics, possesion and control. Sure he might have been corrupt and sneaky and sure he erected the Serbian national flag all over the stadium but really, is Joeseph Nane any worse that Dunnfeild?

Hate this team more and more everyday man.

Hey, I wasnt happy when they canned him either, and that wasnt because I liked 'boring football' it was because we were getting results, and beating chicago 4-1 was one of them.
As ensco has said, Mista was serious money whatever the deal with Nane was. Regardless, what he did is an automatic firing in any club, there was no other choice. We cant blame ownership for that, although we can blame them for not cottoning on to Mo earlier.

This is the first manager who has lasted more than a season, and its a disaster.

jabbronies
05-03-2012, 08:33 AM
Another fire winter/ keep winter thread? There are already 2 others with the exact same arguments involving the exact same people.

Please use one of those to continue this discussion:

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?31629-Rate-Winter-April-2012/page4

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?31463-Keep-Winter-or-Scrap-Him/page51

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 08:00 PM
Just to clarify:

This thread is designed to allow those of the fanbase who want this man's resignation somewhere to make that demand.

Please co-sign this thread if you are incensed by the embarrassment that Winter is bringing upon our badge and team.

There is nothing to stop anybody opening a counter thread, (call it 'Time is not up' or 'please stay' if you want) and if one is opened, I promise not to derail it.

I think if we can separate the two groups into two threads, we can get a sense of what the board really thinks without dodgy polls.

narduch
05-03-2012, 08:11 PM
I want Winter out.

But at this point, I want to purge the entire FO as well.

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 08:14 PM
Yeah, wanting winter out does not necessarily mean you endorse Mariner, Cochrane or anybody else within the organization. Its just a straight vote of no confidence in the man who keeps throwing his players under the bus.

69Chevy396
05-03-2012, 08:21 PM
[QUOTE=narduch;1484027]I want Winter out.

But at this point, I want to purge the entire FO as well.[/QUOTE
He clearly needs to go, not because he is incompetent, not because he doesn't care, or know what he is doing, but because his employer needs to take a reality pill: rookie managers will fail and have failed, and poor scouting, and poor player evaluation methods will lead to predictable results. The next manager must be a seasoned MLS trained leader, winner, able body. To hasten this decision the RPB need to consider something, something that I advocated last season which got me carded at least once: stop chanting, stop singing, or, boycott at least one game, preferably a nationally televised contest. You guys also need a reality check. An empty south stands would send a clear and meaningful message to mlse directors. After all, many season ticket holders have been absent recently, giving their tickets away or not showing up at all....mlse has never faced this sort of dissent from the paying customers and that is the only thing that will ever have a meaningful impact on them

T-boy
05-03-2012, 08:38 PM
No Phil, losing 2-1 away is technically better than getting 0-0. losing 3-2 would be even better.

Drawing away in a two-legged cup game is a good result, generally.

HOWEVER - since TFC have gone 7 games in a row losing, and given that Montreal is still a expansion club, PLUS the fact that TFC had to bore the crap out of us in order for them to get a draw - then its really not such a good result. If Winter wants to save his job, he needed to go out and TRY and get a win. But Winter was clearly wanting "not to lose" more than to go for a win.

ryan
05-03-2012, 09:08 PM
Drawing away in a two-legged cup game is a good result, generally.

HOWEVER - since TFC have gone 7 games in a row losing, and given that Montreal is still a expansion club, PLUS the fact that TFC had to bore the crap out of us in order for them to get a draw - then its really not such a good result. If Winter wants to save his job, he needed to go out and TRY and get a win. But Winter was clearly wanting "not to lose" more than to go for a win.

Can you blame him? We needed a clean sheet, we needed to save some legs. We did both. Yes, 0-0 is not ideal, but it's not horrible. You don't deserve to go through if you can't win one of the two legs, so fuck it, lets win it at home. We'll have Danny and Nick back, they'll be fresh and we'll go at them.

tfcleeds
05-03-2012, 09:22 PM
I want Winter out.

But at this point, I want to purge the entire FO as well.

Sums up my feelings pretty well. We can go through as many coaches as we want - it's high time the higher ups were finally made accountable.

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 09:33 PM
Drawing away in a two-legged cup game is a good result, generally.


No, I have to disagree here. Not only is it an admission that the team is weaker, its submission. Its going to a stadium with the gameplan 'try to have them score as little as possible against us' or 'only try and score if they score first'

In our stadium in the second leg after a 1-1 tie, maybe, in the weakest of cases. In these competitions actively pursuing a 0-0 on the first leg away is almost suicide, and should we go out after a cracking 3-3 draw next wednesday, the 0-0 result will look a LOT worse to you than it does now.

DOMIN8R
05-03-2012, 09:43 PM
For the record, there is a more rational (IMO) conversation taking place in the RPB members only section - where 3 or 4 people aren't responsible for 50 % after 3 pages of posts and the pros and cons are presented evenly. This is in stark contrast to this thread.

Does anyone really think that a qualified coach is going to stick his/her neck out to come to Toronto when the fans are judge and jury - and each time the "fans" get their "lynching" on the FO pulls the trigger?

I'm sorry but worse record or not, if we gave the coaching staff 2 years (like almost ever other MLS franchise) we wouldn't look so schizophrenic. No offense to the schizophrenic.

narduch
05-03-2012, 09:49 PM
Does anyone really think that a qualified coach is going to stick his/her neck out to come to Toronto when the fans are judge and jury - and each time the "fans" get their "lynching" on the FO pulls the trigger?

This is an enormous fallacy among the keep Winter crowd.

Of course a coach will come here. Its a coaching job. Give any coach a contract and enough money and they won't give a shit.

Besides, if I was a potential candidate, I'd look at the fact that TFC has no interest in firing Winter, despite his woeful record as a sign that the organization is willing to take a lot before firing.

0-7 people! We aren't talking about canning a guy with a few slip ups. TFC is epically bad.

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 09:52 PM
Which brings us to his presser.

Can you imagine any coach for any serious team in any serious league making statements like this after the first round of a two leg international tournament/champions league match/whatever

"you want to get confidence back, to believe in it and to get a point, because this is a league with two legs, an away and a home."

"-unintelligble- and we have defended to at least zero-zero and I think weve done that very well."

Absolutely no discussion about the fact that you dont get points in 2-leg tournaments, or the fact that the object is to get an away goal, and maximise your advantage in the next leg.
He is Insulting your intelligence. for crying out loud.

ryan
05-03-2012, 09:53 PM
I disagree that was his thinking, but to each their own. I believe it was "conserve the legs" (RSL was draining, just a couple days ago, 2 starting forwards out, another MLS tilt on Sat with the follow up on Wed) and "get a clean sheet for fucks sake" which I think is more important than those are giving credit.

Again, you don't really deserve to advance without a win, so that's all we have to do and it's a home match. It's not a terrible spot to be in.


We frustrated them and they must come into BMO and score. It's not as if they are without pressure themselves.
The situation is not ideal, or preferred, but all things considered it's not a bad strategy if we're able to get a result vs DC on Saturday, and we're very much in this semi final.

If it pays off, you have to give him credit for it.

nascarguy
05-03-2012, 09:53 PM
no it's not time yet for winter to go

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 09:54 PM
For the record, there is a more rational (IMO) conversation taking place in the RPB members only section - where 3 or 4 people aren't responsible for 50 % after 3 pages of posts and the pros and cons are presented evenly. This is in stark contrast to this thread.

Should I go spam that thread and tell them to come in here?

ensco
05-03-2012, 10:23 PM
I think there is very little actual support for Winter in any thread anywhere. The real change in the last couple of weeks is that there is now nobody who believes 2012 can be saved in any scenario (ie whether Winter walks the plank or not).

Since 2012 is a write off, the real discussion is around whether the right thing to do is (i) admit defeat and can him now (admittedly tempting, it's really what should happen given the scale of failure in the WinterMariner era), or (ii) wait, given the very real possibility that the clowns responsible for this mess will screw things up even worse, for next year, if they just fire Winter solely because they think "the fans" want them to do it, and not as part of a thought through plan that really addresses what went wrong here.

I am in that latter camp. I am desperately hoping that Anselmi et al will be replaced by a proper sports management setup, and I would vastly prefer that we wait until then to fix this.

ExiledRed
05-03-2012, 10:33 PM
I think there is very little support for Winter in any thread anywhere. There is also nobody who believes 2012 can be saved.

Since 2012 is a write off, the real discussion is around whether the right thing to do is (i) admit defeat and can the lot of them now (admittedly tempting, it's really what should happen given the scale of failure in the WinterMariner era), or (ii) wait, given the very real possibility that the clowns responsible for this mess will screw things up even worse for next year if they just fire Winter solely because they think "the fans" want them to do it, and not as part of a thought through plan that really addresses what went wrong here.

I am in that latter camp. I am desperately hoping that Anselmi et al will be replaced by a proper sports management setup, and I would vastly prefer that we wait until then to fix this.

Its tough for me, because I grew up with 'ownership' being the benign men in suits that supplied Bob with whatever he needed, and stayed the fuck out of the way up in their little boxes.

The line between coaching and 'ownership' has now become so fuzzy that my head is spinning. It really doesn't have to be this way.

Just commit what youre going to commit, and give it to the coach to do with what he thinks should be done, sign the cheques and stay the fuck out of the way.

But you need the right financial commitment, and you also need a coach who isnt going to mishandle that money and utterly fail.You cant trust a rookie with no league experience with this kind of responsibility, so they split it up between god knows how many different 'directors' and 'acquirers' and coaches its ridiculous.

ensco
05-03-2012, 10:43 PM
Its tough for me, because I grew up with 'ownership' being the benign men in suits that supplied Bob with whatever he needed, and stayed the fuck out of the way up in their little boxes.

It's easier for me to understand, because I grew up with Harold Ballard.

tfcleeds
05-03-2012, 10:56 PM
I think there is very little actual support for Winter in any thread anywhere. The real change in the last couple of weeks is that there is now nobody who believes 2012 can be saved in any scenario (ie whether Winter walks the plank or not).

Since 2012 is a write off, the real discussion is around whether the right thing to do is (i) admit defeat and can him now (admittedly tempting, it's really what should happen given the scale of failure in the WinterMariner era), or (ii) wait, given the very real possibility that the clowns responsible for this mess will screw things up even worse, for next year, if they just fire Winter solely because they think "the fans" want them to do it, and not as part of a thought through plan that really addresses what went wrong here.

I am in that latter camp. I am desperately hoping that Anselmi et al will be replaced by a proper sports management setup, and I would vastly prefer that we wait until then to fix this.

I too am hopeful that we will see widespread change in the setup once Belogers takes the reins, but I guess whether I want to hang tough with the status quo until then would be very much dependent on the next few matches. I mean, what if we were to go 0-10? How does a streak of that nature suit anybody's needs, even if its agreed the season is a write off and people are biding their time until the ownership change? A change doesn't have to be too drastic - I don't see how somebody like Rongen taking charge necessarily changes what they are trying to do. It's a question of providing a boost and maintaining some pride.

Abou Sky
05-03-2012, 11:10 PM
I think Winter should go. But I want to see you make a .gif of it.

AGREED! Animated GIF of Winter being shot out of a cannon!

Abou Sky
05-03-2012, 11:15 PM
Am I the only one who feels as though he is being raped and the fucks are using hot chili oil as lube?

jloome
05-04-2012, 12:25 AM
Am I the only one who feels as though he is being raped and the fucks are using hot chili oil as lube?

Yeah, kind off... although I'm actually looking at the stats and the positional info for each game, and I still can't see how this isn't his fault. The team just isn't prepared, or good enough.

I guess the question is how handcuffed has he been, if at all? Because let's face it, business is a tough world. People who are supposed to help you trying to take your job is pretty much an everyday occurrence. You still have to deliver at the end.

I'd say there's some credible question now, though, as to how handcuffed they've been. For all we know he's been trying to make major roster changes without success because of these two.

v00d00daddy
05-04-2012, 04:55 AM
I'd say there's some credible question now, though, as to how handcuffed they've been. For all we know he's been trying to make major roster changes without success because of these two.

How many games ago was it that he he said there would be changes?

These quotes are from early April after the defeat to Montreal:

“It’s very simple, in the coming weeks I’m going to change some things,” Winter told reporters after his team lost 2-1 to the Montreal Impact at Olympic Stadium. “Zero points out of four games. I prefer to do it different with some players who are not making those mistakes or they want to battle.”

And

“Everything is possible, we are going to try to bring in also some other players,” Winter said. “I have to. They are playing decent and we are a little bit weak defensively. I want to win. I want to get the points.”

And

“You can prepare yourself very well, you can do everything but if you’re always making those simple mistakes, you can’t do anything [about] it,” Winter said

This sure sounds like a guy who knows he doesn't have the right players and wants to change that.

So...a month and 3 losses later....why no changes?

This club...top to bottom...is a fucking mess.

Oldtimer
05-04-2012, 07:25 AM
This sure sounds like a guy who knows he doesn't have the right players and wants to change that.

So...a month and 3 losses later....why no changes?



Ben Knight spills the beans:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?3168-A-growing-disconnect


The working relationship between Winter and Cochrane have continue to deteriorate since that time. As previously reported on CSN, a divide between “MLS pragmatists” and “4-3-3 idealists” has been brewing for a while. It's been further suggested that Cochrane has openly blocking Winter from other signings during that period but did not elaborate on the details.

I gave Aron 2 on the last poll, so I'm not a fan so far, but there are multiple issues that need to be dealt with.

Beach_Red
05-04-2012, 07:37 AM
From the very beginning there have been FO issues with this team. It really needs someone in charge, a president, a guy who has run organizations before. Without that the team will always have middle-management guys fighting with each other for control. They're always on short-term contracts and more interested in securing their own futures than anything else and who can blame them?

Oh right, we can. Now we're going to go after an assistant GM!?!

ryan
05-04-2012, 07:44 AM
Should repost that article on various MLS/TFC outlets like their FB pages and such. I'm sure much will get deleted but if we persist perhaps it'll get more notice. We need to bring those assholes under more fire for these shenanigans.

ManUtd4ever
05-04-2012, 08:07 AM
The fact that Earl Cochrane is still employed with the club is beyond me. I'm not sure how this alleged internal power struggle is going to play out, but if the club decides to make signficant changes and hire someone from outside the organization, I certainly wouldn't object if Paul Mariner was retained in his current role and Steve Nicol was reunited with him.

Greatest Ripoff
05-04-2012, 08:36 AM
What is the point of firing Winter if people like Anselmi, Cochrane and Mariner are still involved. The team is doomed to make the same mistakes. I am not going to be happy if the teams ends up with just a new head coach, everyone needs to go.

Canary10
05-04-2012, 08:36 AM
That article's a bit of an eye opener. I said before that Winter should be give control over player acquisition. Think that's actually a pretty good idea. Help sort out the internal structure, then if/when a new manager comes in, at least they wouldn't be set up to fail from the beginning.

__wowza
05-04-2012, 09:27 AM
holy fuck, that's a pipebomb. is that supposed to make me feel better about winter or worse about the club?

tfcleeds
05-04-2012, 09:37 AM
Definitely makes me more sympathetic towards Winter, but doesn't change the fact that he's out of his depth and isn't the person to lead us forward.

rocker
05-04-2012, 09:51 AM
Interesting that John Molinaro, who a lot of people support on this board, thinks Earl Cochrane is great and would still make a good GM for TFC.

ensco
05-04-2012, 10:03 AM
Interesting that John Molinaro, who a lot of people support on this board, thinks Earl Cochrane is great and would still make a good GM for TFC.

Is that still true? Only thing I found that says that is this story, which predates the Sturgis trade and the Dero/ Celtic fiasco, both of which Cochrane owns

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/johnmolinaro/2010/10/new-gm-is-right-under-toronto-fcs-nose.html

Razor
05-04-2012, 10:06 AM
To the FO and owners of MLSE:

Get yer fuckin' shit together!!

We have suffered enough BS over the past 6 years. Please, i'm begging just make it right and give us fans something to cheer about.

Couchy81
05-04-2012, 10:11 AM
Maybe Earl is still sore that we got rid of Sturgis so quickly.

tfc2008
05-04-2012, 01:47 PM
Aron Winter, I demand your resignation.

You have been nothing short of an embarrassment, and you have divided this fan-base like no other coach before you. Not even Mo.

We don't want you.

Go away.

-Ian Bailey. SSH since 2007. section 112 (2 seats)

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/cannon.jpg

And then started again with someone new no fucking players have to leave when you cant play soccer are you dont understand the game dont be a soccer player.

Alonso
05-04-2012, 02:30 PM
I'd rather have Anselmi be fired this time (especially if the rumors that he is making decisions without winter and mariner knowing about it are true) as he seems to be undermining the people he's placed in charge and is the one constant in this 6 year god damn mess. I really think there is a lot behind the scenes that we are not privy to. It seems like the souring of the club is coming from the top each and every time.

KEEP WINTER. FIRE ANSELMI. AND LET THE NEW CHIEF ASSESS WHEN WINTERS CONTRACT IS EXPIRED.

Code Red
05-04-2012, 03:07 PM
To the FO and owners of MLSE:

Get yer fuckin' shit together!!

We have suffered enough BS over the past 6 years. Please, i'm begging just make it right and give us fans something to cheer about.

First person to successfully unfurl a banner with the below message gets a case of beer:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UK-T-JSUWiE/TKz8oQ2sPdI/AAAAAAAAAHg/8VC6ZBwksWw/s1600/TFC+Job+Fair.jpg

MartinUtd
05-04-2012, 03:33 PM
Regardless of where you sit on the Winter position I think it's best that TFC/MLSE resolve the Earl Cochrane issue first. Asking for Anselmi to leave is just wishful thinking but I'd happy if we made some progress on shedding the dead weight from the FO.

Auzzy
05-04-2012, 03:33 PM
Is that still true? Only thing I found that says that is this story, which predates the Sturgis trade and the Dero/ Celtic fiasco, both of which Cochrane owns

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/johnmolinaro/2010/10/new-gm-is-right-under-toronto-fcs-nose.html

He recently re-tweeted that article, so he must still believe in it. From April 22 2012:


John Molinaro ‏ @JohnMolinaro
. @jasondevos Cochrane as GM? I called for it two years ago! http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/johnmolinaro/2010/10/new-gm-is-right-under-toronto-fcs-nose.html

I have no freaking clue who is in charge of what at TFC, who to blame for what, etc., so I have absolutely no clue what I would want. I mean, a few things are clear, and there are surely problems with some of AW's on-field decisions & strategies. And who knows how accurate the Duane Rollins' blog post from yesterday is. But I would bet there's plenty of crap going on behind the scenes.

ExiledRed
05-04-2012, 05:20 PM
"Deceive, Inveigle, Obfuscate."

Let it all go to hell, the man still cant coach, whatever else is happening. Let them all go and make Frings player-coach.

ExiledRed
05-04-2012, 05:25 PM
To be honest, if this last five years has all been a result of Cochrane's hissy fit for not getting the job, it needs to be made plain that we dont want him filling any vacancies he's actively been making vacant.

The job is poison to him now, the fans should not accept this.

MartinUtd
05-04-2012, 05:53 PM
Maybe instead of a fire Winter TIFO we should go forward with a Anselmi + Cochrane = Common Denominator TIFO. Although I'm sure somebody else could come up with a another way to get that message across more succinctly.

ryan
05-04-2012, 06:05 PM
lets pay one of them airplane banner flyer thingers to loop the stadium during a whole match with a message of whatever we want. they can't make us take that down. :)

Roogsy
05-04-2012, 07:08 PM
To be honest, if this last five years has all been a result of Cochrane's hissy fit for not getting the job, it needs to be made plain that we dont want him filling any vacancies he's actively been making vacant.

The job is poison to him now, the fans should not accept this.

Oh but many will... With a smile and a thanks!

nascarguy
05-04-2012, 07:18 PM
Maybe instead of a fire Winter TIFO we should go forward with a Anselmi + Cochrane = Common Denominator TIFO. Although I'm sure somebody else could come up with a another way to get that message across more succinctly.
yes Anselmi + Cochrane = Common Denominator TIFO

ensco
05-04-2012, 08:26 PM
Cathal Kelly decides, on balance, he prefers access, so rather than be direct with his shots, he does kind of an interesting job of pretending to admire Anselmi while slyly jabbing him

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/1173328--kelly-toronto-fc-free-fall-not-yet-cause-for-alarm-mlse-boss-says

narduch
05-04-2012, 08:45 PM
Cathal Kelly decides, on balance, he prefers access, so rather than be direct with his shots, he does kind of an interesting job of pretending to admire Anselmi while slyly jabbing him

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/1173328--kelly-toronto-fc-free-fall-not-yet-cause-for-alarm-mlse-boss-says

Lots of nice sarcastic shots at Anselmi there.

I like this though:

“There’s still, what, 80 per cent of the season remaining (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/1167468--toronto-fc-manager-says-playoffs-are-still-in-reach-of-winless-mls-team),” Anselmi said. That’s also true. But there’s a reason they call elections long before every single vote is counted — because what comes before tends to predict with some statistical accuracy what comes afterward. Seven losses does not suggest the beginning of a winning streak.

Alonso
05-04-2012, 08:53 PM
This seems like the common ground that all of us can agree on.

Alonso
05-04-2012, 08:54 PM
Maybe instead of a fire Winter TIFO we should go forward with a Anselmi + Cochrane = Common Denominator TIFO. Although I'm sure somebody else could come up with a another way to get that message across more succinctly.

This was supposed to be included in my last post^^

Alonso
05-04-2012, 09:04 PM
Oh but many will... With a smile and a thanks!


I think that you might be mistaken on this. I think on this board at least that their is a big undercurrent of disdain towards these guys. I think it might be the only thing that most of the group could agree on....

Beach_Red
05-04-2012, 09:04 PM
Cathal Kelly decides, on balance, he prefers access, so rather than be direct with his shots, he does kind of an interesting job of pretending to admire Anselmi while slyly jabbing him

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/1173328--kelly-toronto-fc-free-fall-not-yet-cause-for-alarm-mlse-boss-says


But no one really runs the team: "The authority to fire Winter rests with him, based on his recommendation to the MLSE board." It's easy to imagine this board saying, sure, you can fire him but you can't spend any money on another coach as long as we're paying that contract. So, yeah, he hasn't " explored any external options (though, of course, he has a small supply of internal ones)." Does he really have external options?

But it's this kind of stuff that's so worrisome: “They’re trying to affect the way the game is played in North America. They have really interesting, lofty, long-term goals. The league is applauding what they’re trying to do,” Anselmi said.

Not in Toronto, not in Ontario, not even in Canada (of course, MLSE would want their team to be "Canada's team" forget the other teams) but the whole of North America. What gives MLSE the idea that of every soccer organization in North America the one in last place should be the one, "trying to affect the way the game is played."

Just win one game, okay? Let's start with that.

TorCanSoc
05-04-2012, 09:17 PM
Only three wins in a row will right this ship. One win, Winter's stay of execution. Two wins, players feel better but it doesn't mean much. Three wins, then we can legitimately blame the bounces.

I don't see this happening.

0 - 8 and the only thing we'll be discussing is the percentage discount that it will take for me to buy into a seventh year of season tickets. 10% no. 15% no'ish. 20% maybe. 25% you're getting there. 50% sold, and I'll snag another ticket.

ensco
05-04-2012, 09:26 PM
But it's this kind of stuff that's so worrisome: “They’re trying to affect the way the game is played in North America. They have really interesting, lofty, long-term goals. The league is applauding what they’re trying to do,” Anselmi said.



Notice the razzle dazzle with the "they" stuff again. He's pushing that hard, over and over.

If there's one thing we can do here, it's get the journos to notice, and call this out. It's unconscionable.

Alonso
05-04-2012, 09:45 PM
Notice the razzle dazzle with the "they" stuff again. He's pushing that hard, over and over.

If there's one thing we can do here, it's get the journos to notice, and call this out. It's unconscionable.


Agree completely! "They're" when things are not going well... and "we're" when things are. This guy is a back stabber to the n'th degree and will throw anyone under the bus to save his job.

The guy is completely slimy.

ArmenJBX
05-04-2012, 09:52 PM
So the question to Aron Winter would be:

"In reference to a quote in Mr. Kelly's article, Tom Anselmi referred to the team's plan as distinctly separate from his work at Toronto FC, using the words "They are" to describe the clubs direction. The exact quote is: "They're trying to affect the way the game is played in North America;" How do you feel about being seen as entirely separate of the higher ups, and more importantly, do you feel comfortable with Mr. Ansemi distancing himself already in case things do not work out this season?"

ArmenJBX
05-04-2012, 09:55 PM
I guess a follow up would be:

"Are you willing to assume full responsibility of this team and let the failures of other people in this organization go ignored?"

Roogsy
05-04-2012, 09:56 PM
Notice the razzle dazzle with the "they" stuff again. He's pushing that hard, over and over.

If there's one thing we can do here, it's get the journos to notice, and call this out. It's unconscionable.

He's slime and then portrays himself as a "handshake" kind of businessman. That's BS or the DeRo drama would never have happened.

ensco
05-04-2012, 10:11 PM
He's slime and then portrays himself as a "handshake" kind of businessman. That's BS or the DeRo drama would never have happened.

I missed that when I first read the article. Dero will see that in his morning paper on gameday. Great.

I wonder what Adrian Cann thinks of that line.

We are going to get killed tomorrow.

Beach_Red
05-04-2012, 10:19 PM
So the question to Aron Winter would be:

"In reference to a quote in Mr. Kelly's article, Tom Anselmi referred to the team's plan as distinctly separate from his work at Toronto FC, using the words "They are" to describe the clubs direction. The exact quote is: "They're trying to affect the way the game is played in North America;" How do you feel about being seen as entirely separate of the higher ups, and more importantly, do you feel comfortable with Mr. Ansemi distancing himself already in case things do not work out this season?"

Or maybe the question to Aron could be something about how far down his list of priorities is TFC winning a few games?

All this ridiculous talk of "affecting the way the game is played in North America," is embarrassing. It's as if someone took an OHL coach to Holland and said he was going to affect the way hockey is played in Europe.

Sure, the "we/they" stuff is important in terms of team structure and goes a long way to explain why the team has no leadership and is in last place, but can Aron Winter really believe he was hired to show everyone in North America how it should be done? And let's not forget, that includes Mexico.

ExiledRed
05-04-2012, 10:20 PM
I missed that when I first read the article. Dero will see that in his morning paper on gameday. Great.

I wonder what Adrian Cann thinks of that line.

We are going to get killed tomorrow.

I dread to think what kind of victory celebrations we'll be having should we hold them off 0-0.

Couchy81
05-04-2012, 10:23 PM
Agree completely! "They're" when things are not going well... and "we're" when things are. This guy is a back stabber to the n'th degree and will throw anyone under the bus to save his job.

The guy is completely slimy.

That's the MLSE way though. They hire GM's / Coach's and then when things inevitably go south they fire them and replace them - without taking any responsibility whatsoever. Who has been fired from MLSE for the Leaf's failures, or the Raptor's failures, or TFC's failures? The scapegoats. They have it setup so they keep their jobs no matter what.

ExiledRed
05-04-2012, 10:25 PM
Or maybe the question to Aron could be something about how far down his list of priorities is TFC winning a few games?

All this ridiculous talk of "affecting the way the game is played in North America," is embarrassing. It's as if someone took an OHL coach to Holland and said he was going to affect the way hockey is played in Europe.

Sure, the "we/they" stuff is important in terms of team structure and goes a long way to explain why the team has no leadership and is in last place, but can Aron Winter really believe he was hired to show everyone in North America how it should be done? And let's not forget, that includes Mexico.

Im convinced he thinks canadian fans are uneducated. Theres only so much language limitations can be attributed to some of his comments, but writing that 0-0 off like it was a league away game and not a 2-leg tournament was just insulting.

Im all for cleaning house by the way guys, but theres no way any sea changes at the top are going to make this idiot competent.

Blowing Bubbles
05-05-2012, 12:06 AM
No Phil, losing 2-1 away is technically better than getting 0-0. losing 3-2 would be even better.

can you provide the bulk data to back up your claim so we can all analyze the probabilities?

Pookie
05-05-2012, 06:26 AM
So, Tom Anselmi's vision... well... not his... he doesn't have a vision... but in watching the guys he hired to implement someone else's vision.... his allocation of resources to support the other guys is based on their idea of changing the way the game is played in North America.

Note to Tom Anselmi, while changing the way it's played is fine the rules are still the same. Lowest score doesn't win.

Oldtimer
05-05-2012, 06:56 AM
He's slime and then portrays himself as a "handshake" kind of businessman. That's BS or the DeRo drama would never have happened.

An excellent point, and one I didn't think of, but would also apply to the kids who were promised to be signed by Cochrane and then passed over. He should take responsibility for that fiasco as well.

denime
05-05-2012, 07:03 AM
So, Tom Anselmi's vision... well... not his... he doesn't have a vision... but in watching the guys he hired to implement someone else's vision.... his allocation of resources to support the other guys is based on their idea of changing the way the game is played in North America.

Note to Tom Anselmi, while changing the way it's played is fine the rules are still the same. Lowest score doesn't win.

WHAT? :yikes:

KGH
05-05-2012, 07:47 AM
No Phil, losing 2-1 away is technically better than getting 0-0. losing 3-2 would be even better.

So let's see if you're right. Realistically there are 16 possible outcomes of wednesdays game (there are obviously more but the odds of either team netting 4 is super low). First score is tfc second is montreals:

0-0
1-0
0-1
1-1
2-0
2-1
2-2
1-2
0-2
3-0
3-1
3-2
3-3
2-3
1-3
0-3

So after the 0-0 draw the only way for tfc to win is to actually win the game and there are 6 possible scores to do that. Another 0-0 draw puts us into extra time then possibly penalties. Everything else is a loss. So 6 win scenarios, 9 loss, and 1 tie.

Had we lost 2-1 the only way we could advance would be to win 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, or 3-1. A 2-1 victory ties it up and off to extra and penalties. Basically the 2-1 score simply eliminates the possibility of a 3-2 victory at home leading to a win. This score leads to 4 win scenarios, 11 loss, and 1 tie. So your first argument has just been proven wrong.

Had we lost 3-2 the only way we could advance would be to win 1-0, 2-0, 2-1, 3-0, 3-1. A 3-2 Victory ties it up and any ties are a loss. This score leads to 5 win scenarios, 10 loss, and 1 tie. Again proven wrong.

narduch
05-05-2012, 07:52 AM
Good analysis KGH.

In the end, its an aggregate score 2-game series. So while 0-0 isn't the greatest result, it is still better than being down a goal. The away goal rule only applies when the aggregate score is tied.

The bottom line is that we need to win on Tuesday.

---------

In the past I've seen stats of 2nd leg outcomes vs. 1st leg outcomes, but I can't find them anywhere on the net.

Ajax TFC
05-05-2012, 08:25 AM
people put way too much emphasis on away goals. a win is still ALWAYS better than a draw and a draw is ALWAYS better than a loss. Aggregate score is a lot more important than away goals. If one team leads on aggregate, the away goals mean NOTHING.

Greatest Ripoff
05-05-2012, 09:08 AM
So let's see if you're right. Realistically there are 16 possible outcomes of wednesdays game (there are obviously more but the odds of either team netting 4 is super low). First score is tfc second is montreals:

So after the 0-0 draw the only way for tfc to win is to actually win the game and there are 6 possible scores to do that. Another 0-0 draw puts us into extra time then possibly penalties. Everything else is a loss. So 6 win scenarios, 9 loss, and 1 tie.

Had we lost 2-1 the only way we could advance would be to win 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, or 3-1. A 2-1 victory ties it up and off to extra and penalties. Basically the 2-1 score simply eliminates the possibility of a 3-2 victory at home leading to a win. This score leads to 4 win scenarios, 11 loss, and 1 tie. So your first argument has just been proven wrong.

Had we lost 3-2 the only way we could advance would be to win 1-0, 2-0, 2-1, 3-0, 3-1. A 3-2 Victory ties it up and any ties are a loss. This score leads to 5 win scenarios, 10 loss, and 1 tie. Again proven wrong.

I am glad someone actually took the time to put into words what I was thinking.

ryan
05-05-2012, 09:14 AM
If I could rep that KGH, I would. So since I'm just an RU, I'll give you an old school "this^^^"

:)

Beach_Red
05-05-2012, 09:53 AM
So let's see if you're right. Realistically there are 16 possible outcomes of wednesdays game (there are obviously more but the odds of either team netting 4 is super low). First score is tfc second is montreals:


It seems like there never was a time we needed to go into Montreal and win by 4 to advance....

SirBobSaget
05-05-2012, 09:56 AM
No Phil, losing 2-1 away is technically better than getting 0-0. losing 3-2 would be even better.

To further hammer home the fallacy of the statement that a loss is better than a draw.


TFCDraws 1st Leg Scores
2nd Leg 0-0 1-2 2-3
0-0 --- E/T N - N
1-1 --- N - N - N
2-2 --- N - N - N
3-3+--- N - N - N

TFC Wins 1st Leg Scores
2nd Leg 0-0 1-2 2-3
1-0 --- Y - Y - Y
2-0 --- Y - Y - Y
2-1 --- Y - E/T Y
3-0 --- Y - Y - Y
3-1 --- Y - Y - Y
3-2 --- Y - N - E/T

If TFC Loses 2nd Leg then they are out in any of the sample 1st leg scenarios.

So:
With the 0-0 draw, 0-0 2nd leg keeps them alive for extra time, and any winning scenario gets them through.
When dealing with a loss by away goal, any 2nd leg draw sees them OUT and SOME of the winning scenarios gets them through.

So by losing you always have less options.