Spalleti bemoans Serie a sack culture

[Ossington Mental Youth]

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/1060769/zenit-boss-luciano-spalletti-bemoans-serie-a-sack-culture?cc=5901

Thought id throw this in here although it has nothing to do with MLS but sort of something to do with TFC.
I know a lot of comparisons were drawn between TFC and other peoples clubs all over the world.
Thought there was an interesting argument here.
Thoughts?

[trane]

^ The article just says that he does not want to go to Italy because there is too much pressure on the managers to perform. No shit. But I do not see it as a bad thing for the competitivness of the clubs.


An Italian manager understand the realities of the job, you have to do the best with what you got, if you cannot do it someone else will take over. It is understandable.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

more than that he doesnt appreciate the culture of sacking, not unlike what we have here.
what im suggesting is that any talented coach may be reluctant to join our team for similar reasons.

[ensco]

Who is Spalletti kidding? The Russian league is a bastion of stability?

http://www.thefootballramble.com/blog/entry/coaches-come-and-go-but-rostovs-slide-continues

[Whoop]

Spalletti probably likes his position with Zenit because hold for it....

....

They're winning.

I'm sure if Zenit wasn't winning, and knowing their supporters, he wouldn't be in Zenit.

[DangerRed]

more than that he doesnt appreciate the culture of sacking, not unlike what we have here.
what im suggesting is that any talented coach may be reluctant to join our team for similar reasons.

We do NOT have a culture of sacking here. If we did, a 0-7 league record to start the season wouldn't be allowed to stand.

[ag futbol]

^ Have to agree. There are Argentine clubs that have replaced their manager multiple times in one year.

In terms of the time frame of performance expectations, I'd say we are on one end of the very light end of the spectrum. Winter should consider himself lucky

[Ossington Mental Youth]

We do NOT have a culture of sacking here. If we did, a 0-7 league record to start the season wouldn't be allowed to stand.

See and i figured what 6 coaches in as many years woulda suggested otherwise...

[Roogsy]

We do NOT have a culture of sacking here. If we did, a 0-7 league record to start the season wouldn't be allowed to stand.


This.

Oh lord this.

This argument completely undoes the whole "we fire too often" claim. If it were true, Winter would be gone by now. Period.

[Roogsy]

See and i figured what 6 coaches in as many years woulda suggested otherwise...

Mo replaced himself after getting a promotion. (Can't be considered sacking).
Carver left on his own after almost turning mad having to deal with MLS and MoJo/MLSE. (Not a sacking).
Cummins was always interim manager and never obtained the position as a permanent manager. (Not a sacking).
Preki was sacked. (So far, 1 sacking.)
Dasovic was always interim manager and applied for the position and didn't get it. (Not a sacking.)
We now have the current clown in charge. (Hasn't been sacked...........yet.)



In our history, we have 1...read that ONE actual coach that got sacked. This despite never making the playoffs and having historically bad performance. And when I mean historic, I mean no team in MLS has ever been as bad for as long as we have. And yet we have a culture of sacking? :facepalm:

[Shakes McQueen]

Without actually getting into the meat of this argument, I will say that Dasovic and Cummins were effectively sackings, if not in technical fact. The team opted to go in another direction after one season of each, despite both wanting the permanent job.

The fact that they were out of contract at the time, or that they were '"interim", is quibbling in relation to Ossington's point.

- Scott

[ExiledRed]

Without actually getting into the meat of this argument, I will say that Dasovic and Cummins were effectively sackings, if not in technical fact. The team opted to go in another direction after one season of each, despite both wanting the permanent job.

The fact that they were out of contract at the time, or that they were '"interim", is quibbling in relation to Ossington's point.

- Scott

I dont agree, they were asked to step in for a time period, and when that time period expired their contracts weren't renewed. Neither had proved they were capable of coaching a side to the playoffs, although admittedly Dasovic never had the chance to prove it.
Cummins was the best weve had so far, but he made mistakes, benched experience and at the end of the day wasnt experienced enough himself to win the respect of big players or DP's.

Not renewing either of these coaches, was absolutely acceptable and very different from firing a guy halfway through a season based on results.

[Roogsy]

Without actually getting into the meat of this argument, I will say that Dasovic and Cummins were effectively sackings, if not in technical fact. The team opted to go in another direction after one season of each, despite both wanting the permanent job.

The fact that they were out of contract at the time, or that they were '"interim", is quibbling in relation to Ossington's point.

- Scott

It is not quibbling and it is not a technicality unless you want to completely dismiss the fact that they were interim managers and somehow equate that to being a permanent manager. The only way you can consider a manager to be sacked is if he was ever declared to have the position as his to begin with. The litmus test here is the expectation of a manager that they either do know or do not expect the team to be conducting a search possibly including themselves as candidates. In the case of both, this was the case and the team happened to go in another direction. Neither Cummins nor Dasovic ever had the luxury of coaching the team without a coach potentially parachuting in and replacing them. And neither had a full season contrary to your statement.

[ManUtd4ever]

It's astonishing when you think about it, but it's true that Preki is technically the only non interim coach that has been fired since the inception of the franchise, despite the consistent record of futility.

In any case, I don't think anyone can logically insinuate that Winter's dismissal at this point in time would be premature.

[Shakes McQueen]

I dont agree, they were asked to step in for a time period, and when that time period expired their contracts weren't renewed. Neither had proved they were capable of coaching a side to the playoffs, although admittedly Dasovic never had the chance to prove it.
Cummins was the best weve had so far, but he made mistakes, benched experience and at the end of the day wasnt experienced enough himself to win the respect of big players or DP's.

Not renewing either of these coaches, was absolutely acceptable and very different from firing a guy halfway through a season based on results.

What don't you agree with? I didn't even weigh in on the actual debate, nor did I say either of them deserved to keep their jobs.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

It is not quibbling and it is not a technicality unless you want to completely dismiss the fact that they were interim managers and somehow equate that to being a permanent manager. The only way you can consider a manager to be sacked is if he was ever declared to have the position as his to begin with. The litmus test here is the expectation of a manager that they either do know or do not expect the team to be conducting a search possibly including themselves as candidates. In the case of both, this was the case and the team happened to go in another direction. Neither Cummins nor Dasovic ever had the luxury of coaching the team without a coach potentially parachuting in and replacing them. And neither had a full season contrary to your statement.

I didn't say it was a technicality - I said it was technically fact. I said both were effectively sackings, if not in literal fact.

But upon further reflection, I will concede the point on Dasovic. He didn't even take over until September, when MLSE cleaned house.

Cummins however, I will continue to insist was effectively sacked, despite whatever "interim" label the team gave him. He was under no clear threat of being replaced, and it even appeared for a time that he was likely going to keep the job.

At any rate, the problem (if you think it is one), has never been who has been sacked, or left of their own accord - the problem is endless turnover, whatever it's form. Sacked, resigned, whatever - we've never had a coach last two full seasons.

- Scott

[Juanito]

It's astonishing when you think about it, but it's true that Preki is technically the only non interim coach that has been fired since the inception of the franchise, despite the consistent record of futility.

In any case, I don't think anyone can logically insinuate that Winter's dismissal at this point in time would be premature.

You'd be surprise how many people will disagree with this. Personally, I'm with Roogsy, we've been WAY TOO FORGIVING and we're now (once again) the laughing stock of the league. What are we, the Bad News Bears? The not-so-loveable losers of North American footy?!

[tfcleeds]

Don't see how anyone can say Cummins was sacked when he left voluntarily for family reasons (wife couldn't get a working visa here). Indeed, Preki is the only manager we've had who you can definitively say was sacked.

[Shakes McQueen]

Don't see how anyone can say Cummins was sacked when he left voluntarily for family reasons (wife couldn't get a working visa here). Indeed, Preki is the only manager we've had who you can definitively say was sacked.

The situation with the visas was never that simple. Cummins himself said so.

Aside from that, you'll get no disagreement from me that Preki is the only manager we can definitively say was sacked.

- Scott

[jloome]

We do NOT have a culture of sacking here. If we did, a 0-7 league record to start the season wouldn't be allowed to stand.

Again, post hoc fallacy. One does not necessarily relate to each other, because it's dependent on the definition of "culture of sacking." If culture of sacking means -- as it might well to many --getting rid of three of four previous managers before they'd completed a single season, then yes, we have a culture of sacking.

"Culture of" does not "always." It means "usually."

But I get the point. Maybe it would be, for now, more accurate to say we "had" a culture of sacking (although again, in those cases, they all got more than eight games).

[jloome]

His wife was quite clear that the club promised him it would be NO PROBLEM getting her a working visa, and then was unable to do so. So again, it was a "mo is full of shit" problem, not an immigration problem.


The situation with the visas was never that simple. Cummins himself said so.

Aside from that, you'll get no disagreement from me that Preki is the only manager we can definitively say was sacked.

- Scott

[jloome]

wasnt experienced enough himself to win the respect of big players or DP's.

Based on what? He had a winning record and I don't recall any of the players talking about him.

[trane]

^ Even on its face that he left "because wife could not get a working visa" does not add up, unless there are other facts, or is a oversimplification, while I have no insight into his particular immigration case, I can safely assume that Cummins had a working permit, as he was openly working with the club, a dependent (his wife) of a person on a work permit, is entitled to an open work permit,, and as long it is properly applied for it should be issued ( again unless there is a brake in communication or somehow there is a unique set of facts ( for example wife is inadmissible to Canada for whatever reason- but even then it would seem, unless something awfully serious,that it could have easily be solved with a Temporary Resident Permit- and if she was inadmissible she should not be in the country at all).

[Beach_Red]

His wife was quite clear that the club promised him it would be NO PROBLEM getting her a working visa, and then was unable to do so. So again, it was a "mo is full of shit" problem, not an immigration problem.

Let me ask you, if the manager of a soccer team told you he could circumvent a coutry's immigration politices would you believe him? Now, it is possible that someone at MLSE who handles dozens of visas a year for soccer, basketball and hockey players said something could be done and Cummins believed them, but still, this whole story is embarrassing for everyone concerned and should never be repeated.

As for what we have a culture of here, it's this - not paying guys to not coach. Preki is the only guy who was ever let go in the middle of contract and had to be paid. If Winter is let go before the end of next season he'll only be the second coach in team history to be paid not to coach. Maybe MLSE isn't cheap, maybe they spend quite freely, but continuing to pay one coach and bringing in another at the same time is likely a desicion that gets made at a higher level. Maybe Anselmi could approve two coach's contracts at the same time, but no one else associated with this team ever could.

[trane]

^ I may not be an expert on football, but I am on Canadian immigration, and I can tell you as I say in the post, assuming Cummins had a regular work permit, getting a work permit for his dependent is pretty well automatic. Hence the whole thing does not add up. I do not think the club lied to him, either something unexpected happened, or someone messed up, or story is not quite correct.

[ExiledRed]

Based on what? He had a winning record and I don't recall any of the players talking about him.

Based on the fact that he was a youth coach at best, with no playing career to point to.

How is someone of this calibre supposed to coach the likes of Torsten Frings or immediately win his respect?

[Whoop]

Hmm, playing career aside, sounds like Winter.

[Shakes McQueen]

Hmm, playing career aside, sounds like Winter.

That's a massive caveat you're carving out, when it comes to getting the respect of someone like Frings.

- Scott

[ExiledRed]

Hmm, playing career aside, sounds like Winter.

Actually its worse. He was a youth coach with Watford (home of the long ball) hired by Graham 'turniphead' Taylor.

That he did so well was a real credit to him, but I cant help feeling that particular team could have done MUCH better that year, if they werent in the hands of someone who seemed to think that the endgame was about developing young players for the future, and that it was acceptable to be a mediocre club.

[narduch]

Chris Cummins at least managed to get a job post-TFC. I'm not sure the same can be said about Winter.

[ag futbol]

Agreed, all said and done, I kind of liked Chris Cummins... although I think he's a little green at the current point.

[ExiledRed]

Chris Cummins at least managed to get a job post-TFC. I'm not sure the same can be said about Winter.

Maybe ESPN will employ him as a commentator.........errrrrr

[ag futbol]

As for what we have a culture of here, it's this - not paying guys to not coach. Preki is the only guy who was ever let go in the middle of contract and had to be paid. If Winter is let go before the end of next season he'll only be the second coach in team history to be paid not to coach. Maybe MLSE isn't cheap, maybe they spend quite freely, but continuing to pay one coach and bringing in another at the same time is likely a desicion that gets made at a higher level. Maybe Anselmi could approve two coach's contracts at the same time, but no one else associated with this team ever could.
Strong point, we could have three coaches on payroll at the same time .. lol!

[Beach_Red]

Strong point, we could have three coaches on payroll at the same time .. lol!


I think TFC's budget has been frozen. When was the last player signed?

[narduch]

I think TFC's budget has been frozen.

I think so too. That's part of the reason that Anselmi said that 'they' have to fix the mess TFC is in.

It seems like Winter's immediate replacement will come from within (Winter or Rongen). Not Steve Nicol.

[T-boy]

I still can't name a manager of any professional football team in the world that has started the season 0-7 and KEPT their job!