Rate Winter: April 2012

[__wowza]

PLEASE READ BEFORE RATING!
(it'll make everything a hell of a lot easier)

This is gonna be fun! Please note that I expect civility here, debate someones point of view, argue their logic, but never (under any circumstances) attack them personally. The teams doing poorly enough without us going at each others throats on top of it. Each category gets a specific rating, from 5 (being the highest) to 1 (being the lowest). To calculate the average rating, just add your total up and divide by 5, if it's got a decimal point at the end of it, you can round either up or down based on the simple question "did Winter perform up to your expectations for the month". Afterward, you post your total rating on the poll, from 5 - 1. As a nifty little added feature, i've attached links to the matches. simply click on the match to head over the post game analysis, crourtesy of the MLS. it'll make it easier to back up your points with information.

here's the criteria:

TACTICS
how did you feel about the tactical choices made?
what about his starters? subs? formation?

RESULTS
at the end of the day, how did we do in terms of results? did we tie games we should've lost? lost games we should've won? etc.

EFFICIENCY
how effective was the coach in utilizing the players he has?
did he play some players out of position? did he have a reason to?

COMMUNICATION
how effective was the coach in explaining his outlook and choices in the paper / on torontofc.ca / on TFCtv / in post match interviews?

TRADES & MISC
were the trades made productive or counter-productive?
did he fly off the handle at get a 4 game ban?
was he making eyes at your wife/girlfriend/same-sex partner?


A general guideline: Its how you feel at the moment, not a final assessment. Like a marathon, this is just a snapshot of our support for the month. A low approval rating does not rate him as an overall failure, just like a high approval rating does not mean he's Sir Alex Ferguson. For the sake of context, this is how he / TFC have preformed in APRIL:




LEAGUE PLAY
0 points out of a possible 12
10TH in the East -
19TH out of 19 overall -
GD: -10 ↓5

CHAMPIONS LEAGUE PLAY
Lost Sanos Laguna on aggregate 7-3


*red denotes CCL game

Santos Laguna v Toronto FC
APR 4th : LOSS 6-2 (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/04/reds-tourney-ends-torreon)

Montreal Impact v Toronto FC
APR 7th : Loss 2-1 (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/04/toronto-handed-fourth-defeat)

Toronto FC v Chivas USA
APR 14th : LOSS 0-1 (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/04/toronto-topped-chivas)

Toronto FC v Chicago Fire
APR 21st: LOSS 2 - 3 (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/04/toronto-thwarted-bmo-field)

Real Salt Lake vs Toronto FC
APR 28th : LOSS 3-2 (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/04/reds-suffer-salt-lake-heartbreak)




OLD THREADS:
*2.97 / Rating: D+ MARCH THREAD (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?31281-Rate-Winter-March-2012&highlight=Rate+Winter)
*3.95 / Rating: B+ OCTOBER THREAD (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?30014-Winter-Approval-Rating-October-2011&highlight=rate+winter)
*3.76 / Rating: B SEPTEMBER THREAD (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?29748-Winter-Approval-Rating-September-2011)
*3.21 / Rating: C AUGUST THREAD (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=29422)
83.44% JULY THREAD (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=29100)
63.55%JUNE THREAD (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=28658)
46.60% MAY THREAD (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=28251)
77.61% APRIL THREAD (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=27878)


NOTE: if you'd like to see an update to the criteria you think i may have overlooked, PM me.

[__wowza]

TACTICS: 3
frei is out, soolsma is out, our options are limited, but i still don't see the sense in playing 4-3-3 with wingers who can't find a target in front of the net. i've noticed for the most part that we've been getting better at set pieces, now if only our defense would follow at defending them. speaking of our defense, until we get better CB's, we can expect to keep leaking goals under the current formation.

RESULTS: 1
we gave RSL a good run, but there's simply nothing, and i mean NOTHING to give anything more than a 1 to in terms of points. have i enjoyed the way we looked in losing games? yes, technically we've not looked better, but we identified problems with our defense LAST YEAR and still havent fixed them. those "lucky breaks" the other team are getting come far too often.

EFFICIENCY: 3
i miss nick soolsma, we're getting a lot outt've silva/avila, but i'd like to see more of them to understand where the teams going. our current string of CBs are consistently pointed to as the reason why or games fall apart and i can't disagree with it.

COMMUNICATION: 1
"luck", "played doing their jobs", "pity", "we're making the playoffs" etc.
he gets a point for declaring that we're making the playoffs knowing that he's just bet his job on it. aside from that, his players (ecks/johnson/frings) have said more than he has.

TRADES & MISC: 1
something tells me that the next time the window opens we're going to be losing a team staple for a CB we should've had months ago. as for the misc, what can i say? wins would sure tie over some've the fans we're losing.


OVERALL: 2.0 (rounded up from a 1.6)
i don't know if i'm seeing this team getting better, or if i want to see this team get better, but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt (yet again). i hope my faith is repaid in the upcoming months, many of us can't take much more of this.. that's pretty evident in the fact that he just received his worst rating yet last month and that's with the champions league.

[David_Oliveira]

TACTICS (3/5)
Ithink that formationally, we are playing the right foemation. Due to individual mistakes, we have lost games not for tactical reasons. Sure or CBs are shit but that has nothing to do with tactics.

RESULTS (0/5)Winless. Need I say more

EFFICIENCY (3/5)
Considering injuries, alittle hard on the lineup. Picked the best he has available. Even benched De Guzman. Should light a fire under De Guzman's ass

COMMUNICATION (1/5)
Still not what I would like (would like more info on injuries, training, etc.) but that is the reporter's fault. If a reporter reads this, start asking the tough questions. Force the point.

TRADES & MISC (0/5)
Off-season signings have been really unimpressive to date. No trades but lets see what happens.

OVERALL: (1.4/5)
We really need to pick it up. I still believe the playoffs are attainable but we can't have another winless month

[Couchy81]

The only two positives I see from this month are 1. The players actually care, and 2. Every league game was lost was by a single goal, there were no blowout losses like last season. So far.

1.6 -> 2.0

[ExiledRed]

tactics 1/5 playing 3-4-3 in MLS is staggeringly arrogant. Ill be honest, I thought we should do this in year one, but that was because I thought the league was worse than it was.

results 0/5 - you cant rate a guy on results, the results do it for themselves and they are what they are.

communication 0/5 - 'of course a win would be very early and very good at this moment.' - he cannot say what he means.

trades 0/5 - Aceval and Silva were the best we could do this offseason? Why cant we off Dunfield and Harden?

overall 0.25/5 - You have to admire this guys tenacity, he's collecting his cheques for as long as possible this one.

[DangerRed]

TACTICS (0/5)
In order to be considered successful, tactics need to lead to winning results. They have not, and therefore aren't.

RESULTS (0/5)
We have won no games out of 7.

EFFICIENCY (2/5)
This team can be a real shit sandwich for a coach/manager, and he has seen his fair share, so tried to make the best of it. All things considered, he hasn't been a complete and utter failure in managing to assemble 11 guys who can complete a pass from time to time.

COMMUNICATION (1/5)
Gotta give him a point for sticking to his key messages. "My players are shit," "we were unlucky," etc

TRADES & MISC (0/5)
No trades made this year.

OVERALL (0.6/5)
Are you not entertained?

[Roogsy]

OVERALL: 2.0 (rounded up from a 1.6)


Isn't that a 1.8 instead of a 1.6? Or do you have them weighted differently?

Anyways, my ratings are:

TACTICS: 2 - He rarely makes a good move, but when he does it is often too late and usually after a harsh lesson (ie. Avila)
RESULTS: 0- 0-7, worst possible start, he has fully earned this zero
EFFICIENCY: 1 - Every squad needs to make do with injured players, absent for national duty or streaky players, he can't make do with a roster that is as almost completely there despite a couple of injuries
COMMUNICATION: 1 -If I hear "luck" one more time...
TRADES & MISC: 0 -There are no "intangibles" about this team that make me feel positive, all I see are frustrated players

Final score = 0.80 rounded up to 1.00

He didn't even get a full 1 star from me. After I gave him the benefit of the doubt in March and gave him 3. I won't make that mistake again, he is going to have to earn every star from me going forward.

[Whoop]

TACTICS (0/5)
In order to be considered successful, tactics need to lead to winning results. They have not, and therefore aren't.

RESULTS (0/5)
We have won no games out of 7.

EFFICIENCY (2/5)
This team can be a real shit sandwich for a coach/manager, and he has seen his fair share, so tried to make the best of it. All things considered, he hasn't been a complete and utter failure in managing to assemble 11 guys who can complete a pass from time to time.

COMMUNICATION (1/5)
Gotta give him a point for sticking to his key messages. "My players are shit," "we were unlucky," etc

TRADES & MISC (0/5)
No trades made this year.

OVERALL (0.6/5)
Are you not entertained?

My grade is close to this as well.

Tactics - 1/5
Inflexible and unbending in his ability to get the most of the squad that he has as well as making the necessary in-game adjustments.

Results - 0/5
0-7. That says it all.

Efficiency - 1/5
See tactics

Communication - 1/5
Doesn't instill any confidence.

Trades & misc - 0/5
None of the off season moves have made any discernible difference whatsoever.

Overall: 0.6/5 bumped up to 1 since there is no 0.

[__wowza]

Isn't that a 1.8 instead of a 1.6? Or do you have them weighted differently

DAMMIT ROOGSY... I'M A TFC SUPPORTER, NOT A MATHEMATICIAN!! g:D


He didn't even get a full 1 star from me. After I gave him the benefit of the doubt in March and gave him 3. I won't make that mistake again, he is going to have to earn every star from me going forward.

i was originally hesitant to post 0 as a rating. i considered 5:A 4:B 3:C 2:D 1:F, from the way things are shaping up, if he's around next month i might have to just add that new category. surprising that we've seen a lack of random *5 votes this time around, seems that people are having a hard time justifying it whether they're trolling or not.

[jabbronies]

TACTICS - 3
Tactics are fine IMO. We are not loosing games based on tactics. We are loosing based on player errors

RESULTS - 0
0-7 is not good

EFFICIENCY - 3
I think he is doing well with his player selection and subs. Last night was a good example of it working in his favour. Subs have been making an impact

COMMUNICATION - 1
Indifferent to this, but he could get more detailed and stop being so vague in his answers. If someone played like shit, tell us who played like shit and why you think he played like shit.

TRADES & MISC - 2
Benching Harden and minimal time for Aceval were god moves.


2.0 (rounded up from 1.8). One star down from last month
Results killed it for him.

[RedsYNWA]

tactics (1/5)

results (0/5)

efficiency (1/5)

communication (2/5)

trades & misc (1/5)

overall (1/5)

[Roogsy]

I'd be interested in reading the explanations for the 3s that have recently voted.

[Ageroo]

I'd be interested in reading the explanations for the 3s that have recently voted.

I am sure there won't be many more......lol

[Jack]

TACTICS: 1.5
He has been outmaneuvered by opponents in a few games, with them keying on our weaknesses and him not making adjustments. Having been bitten by the injury bug, I can't fault him on a lot of the lineup choices, but the inability to recognize and use Avila until recently push his score down even further here. It seems like he doesn't scout his opponents or something.

RESULTS: 0
We haven't won a single game. Our guys are putting in some decent performances in spurts, but he can't get them to put together a consistent 90 minutes and our results reflect that.

EFFICIENCY: 2.5
I suppose he's using the players to the best he can, but the fact that Avila wasn't even in the starting lineup for so long, only to show us in the space of a couple of games that he can be a difference-maker for us leads me to believe he's not too in touch with the guys. Credit goes to him for sticking with Lambe, who has shown some interesting flashes of late. I'd still like to see more of Frings and De Guzman with Silva in front of them, as well as a game with Aceval at LB (though Morgan does seem to be getting a touch better with his passing - still not enough).

COMMUNICATION: 1
His communication is bad, and while I can forgive his English being a bit weak, man, does he ever not inspire confidence with his deadpan, half-stoned sounding press conferences. I hope someone else gives the team talks! Promising playoffs? Wow...I'll eat these words gladly if he somehow makes it happen, but wow...

TRADES & MISC: 1
He's not brought in the player to address our most glaring need. Caicedo bombed, Emory is a sub, Cann is not back. Koevs is still out of shape (get a friggin personal trainer on his ass!). Players are under enormous pressure now and it looks like a lot of them may have just reached the end of their rope on Saturday night (we'll see how they react on Wednesday).


OVERALL: 1 (rounded down from a 1.2)
There are no signs that things will change. We keep getting gutted by fumbles and mistakes. Can he get these guys focused and playing his system well enough to win? I hope so. I hope things turn around and we go 7-0 in our next 7. Hope. My realistic side tells me something else.

[trane]

^ What is frustrating about Winter, is that I think that he is not clueless, he seems to be a good football mind, it is just that somehow it does not come all together to make him a good manager. I see his pedigree as a player and as a coach, I here him talk about what he wants to achieve and I think this dude has what it takes to be a good manager one day, it just that it is not happening that is the bottom line.

[Whoop]

Then maybe he should go back down a level to get more experience.

I don't want TFC to be a training ground for inexperienced coaches.

[ExiledRed]

Then maybe he should go back down a level to get more experience.

I don't want TFC to be a training ground for inexperienced coaches.

Which is all it has ever been. Even Preki's experience was slight.

Its all very well bemoaning the revolving door, but its not as if were chopping proven coaches every year now is it?

One experienced coach with a proven track record, should be enough to stop the door from spinning.

[denime]

Which is all it has ever been. Even Preki's experience was slight.

Its all very well bemoaning the revolving door, but its not as if were chopping proven coaches every year now is it?

One experienced coach with a proven track record, should be enough to stop the door from spinning.


Agree,but until we find one experienced coach with a proven track record who wants to come here,



























I suggest we keep Winter.:hide:

[ExiledRed]

Agree,but until we find one experienced coach with a proven track record who wants to come here,
I suggest we keep Winter.:hide:

I thought you'd prefer Rongen in his place? I certainly wouldnt object to Rongen stepping in now and trying to salvage the season while a replacement is sought.

[Rene Kingsriver]

I thought you'd prefer Rongen in his place? I certainly wouldnt object to Rongen stepping in now and trying to salvage the season while a replacement is sought.

I was all for Rongen until I heard his colour commentary on Saturday night :facepalm:

[denime]

I thought you'd prefer Rongen in his place? I certainly wouldnt object to Rongen stepping in now and trying to salvage the season while a replacement is sought.

If we can't get any other one to come here,than yeah Rongen or at least while a long term replacement is found.

[denime]

I was all for Rongen until I heard his colour commentary on Saturday night :facepalm:

So you are rating a coach based on his commentary.:facepalm:

[Rene Kingsriver]

So you are rating a coach based on his commentary.:facepalm:

I wasn't being serious, anyone who can coach American Samoa to a win has the perfect experience for our current situation (just joking)

He was really bad though verbal diarrhea of the worst kind

[denime]

I wasn't being serious, anyone who can coach American Samoa to a win has the perfect experience for our current situation (just joking)

He was really bad though verbal diarrhea of the worst kind

Than your :facepalm: must be followed by g:D. ;)

I met him several times at TFCA and he is very passionate when it comes to soccer and TFC academy in particular seems to be his baby.

[Rene Kingsriver]

Than your :facepalm: must be followed by g:D. ;)

I met him several times at TFCA and he is very passionate when it comes to soccer and TFC academy in particular seems to be his baby.

I'll put his talking down to enthusiasm then. Do you think he's want the head coach position then even on just an interim basis?

[ExiledRed]

Is this the twilight zone?

Who on earth voted four stars?

[denime]

I'll put his talking down to enthusiasm then. Do you think he's want the head coach position then even on just an interim basis?

I was told while the team was in Florida that he wants it and that was in February.I did not believe it,because there was nothing to indicate he came to TFC to take HC position but there was no indications that this team will be 0-7,and few months later here we are 0-7.

[Rene Kingsriver]

Is this the twilight zone?

Who on earth voted four stars?

if you think 1 4 star rating is bad you should go over to U-Sector and take a look

[Rene Kingsriver]

I was told while the team was in Florida that he wants it and that was in February.I did not believe it,because there was nothing to indicate he came to TFC to take HC position but there was no indications that this team will be 0-7,and few months later here we are 0-7.

I made fun of it but his enthusiasm would be a welcome change from Winter that's for sure and he has an MLS Cup albeit a while ago now

[denime]

Is this the twilight zone?

Who on earth voted four stars?

It wasn't me,I swear.

Mister 4 stars,I want one of those:stogey: for Wednesday night VC game.

[denime]

if you think 1 4 star rating is bad you should go over to U-Sector and take a look

What ? :yikes:

Let me check U-Sector:leaving:

[Rene Kingsriver]

What ? :yikes:


Let me check U-Sector:leaving:


I admire their loyalty but ....

[Shakes McQueen]

I'm honestly interested to hear the formula used by the person who gave him a 4/5 for the month. That's basically a grade of A for a month where we didn't earn a single point. Of course, it also might just be someone trolling the poll, to get a reaction from us.

As for me, I gave him a 1. I think the team has deserved better on a couple of occasions, and I don't think the tactics have been a 100% shambles, but I'm hard pressed to justify more than a 1 for the manager of a team that is 0-7.

- Scott

[Azerban]

reminder it was i, forums superstar azerban, that first sussed out winter in february the year of our lord (pbuh) 2011

since he's successfully accomplished exactly and precisely what i assumed he was going to accomplish, i can do nothing else but award him 5 stars

[trane]

Then maybe he should go back down a level to get more experience.

I don't want TFC to be a training ground for inexperienced coaches.


Oh fuck do I ever agree. As far as his time with TFC, it should be over.

[trane]

I'm honestly interested to hear the formula used by the person who gave him a 4/5 for the month. That's basically a grade of A for a month where we didn't earn a single point. Of course, it also might just be someone trolling the poll, to get a reaction from us.

As for me, I gave him a 1. I think the team has deserved better on a couple of occasions, and I don't think the tactics have been a 100% shambles, but I'm hard pressed to justify more than a 1 for the manager of a team that is 0-7.

- Scott

Agreed. Again this is why I am frustrated and disappointed. He kind of seems to get it, but then he does something that is just puzzling, and the team commits its regular patented defensive brain fart, and anything that seemed to be going well is rendered completely useless.

[ExiledRed]

reminder it was i, forums superstar azerban, that first sussed out winter in february the year of our lord (pbuh) 2011

since he's successfully accomplished exactly and precisely what i assumed he was going to accomplish, i can do nothing else but award him 5 stars

What was it that alerted you so early?

Was it the endless pages of bullshit about 'culture' and how we were going to play 'attractive posession based football' (as if this wasn't every fucking team out there's ambition)?

[Azerban]

What was it that alerted you so early?

Was it the endless pages of bullshit about 'culture' and how we were going to play 'attractive posession based football' (as if this wasn't every fucking team out there's ambition)?

remember that fucking booklet

lmbo

[jloome]

What was it that alerted you so early?

Was it the endless pages of bullshit about 'culture' and how we were going to play 'attractive posession based football' (as if this wasn't every fucking team out there's ambition)?

The first major gunshot across the bow was when he said he'd talked to Ruud Gullit. If anyone's read the Beckham Experiment, Gullit was a completely absentee manager who couldn't understand why players weren't able to just slot into a european system and was basically there for his name.

Given DeGuzman's comment last mont about Bob doing most of the talking, this again comes to mind.

[ExiledRed]

The first major gunshot across the bow was when he said he'd talked to Ruud Gullit. If anyone's read the Beckham Experiment, Gullit was a completely absentee manager who couldn't understand why players weren't able to just slot into a european system and was basically there for his name.

Given DeGuzman's comment last mont about Bob doing most of the talking, this again comes to mind.

Gordon's comment that Gullit and Winter were the same person corroborates this too.

[Whoop]

Wow a 5?

Sorry, but if the team was 5-2, what would he get a spot on the "Wall of Honour"?

[ExiledRed]

Wow a 5?

Sorry, but if the team was 5-2, what would he get a spot on the "Wall of Honour"?

the 5 was Azerban, taking the piss.

[Shakes McQueen]

Wow a 5?

Sorry, but if the team was 5-2, what would he get a spot on the "Wall of Honour"?

I suspect the fives and four are just people trying to elicit a reaction. I don't see how anyone, even if they want to keep Winter, could justify higher than a 3/5 in their own mind for the month of April.

- Scott

[__wowza]

I suspect the fives and four are just people trying to elicit a reaction. I don't see how anyone, even if they want to keep Winter, could justify higher than a 3/5 in their own mind for the month of April.

it certainly won't improve his rating. you can give a 4 or a 5, but when 98% of of us are giving a 1 or 2 it'll reflect evenly. methinks next month having usernames show up next to a vote would help curb the wisenheimers (note: are you fucking kidding me? "wisenheimers" shows up on spellcheck, and asks me to replace it with "windjammers"? is that even a thing!?)

[Couchy81]

it certainly won't improve his rating. you can give a 4 or a 5, but when 98% of of us are giving a 1 or 2 it'll reflect evenly. methinks next month having usernames show up next to a vote would help curb the wisenheimers (note: are you fucking kidding me? "wisenheimers" shows up on spellcheck, and asks me to replace it with "windjammers"? is that even a thing!?)

Not sure about this version of the board but the last version if you clicked view poll results without actually having placed a vote, it would display usernames next to their choice

[Jack]

Not sure about this version of the board but the last version if you clicked view poll results without actually having placed a vote, it would display usernames next to their choice
That depends on whether or not the poll creator selected the option to "show who voted" when setting up the poll.

[__wowza]

Was it the endless pages of bullshit about 'culture' and how we were going to play 'attractive posession based football' (as if this wasn't every fucking team out there's ambition)?

preki came in and stated we were going to be playing defensive-minded for much of our possession.

[Belfast_Boy]

4's and 5's that's too funny.

gave him a 1. no 0 was available. Can we please have the scale expanded to include negative numbers?

[lobo]

rated 1 star. lowest available. end of my analysis.

[Ben - D.O.W.]

Frings scores that penalty last game and they keep playing til the final whistle and we win. Frings doesn't turn it over in the first 20 seconds the game before and we at least tie. Those aren't on Winter - unless you're saying maybe he should upgrade Frings. (and I, in no way, am trying to throw Frings under the bus - clearly he's a bright spot for us - these just happen to be the first examples that come to mind)

Having said that I still only gave him a 2. I'd love to give him more but with results being what they are... I'm in the "we should probably give him the year" camp and I still can't rate him higher.

[ExiledRed]

Frings scores that penalty last game and they keep playing til the final whistle and we win. Frings doesn't turn it over in the first 20 seconds the game before and we at least tie. Those aren't on Winter - unless you're saying maybe he should upgrade Frings. (and I, in no way, am trying to throw Frings under the bus - clearly he's a bright spot for us - these just happen to be the first examples that come to mind)

Having said that I still only gave him a 2. I'd love to give him longer but with results being what they are...

OR, Frings scores the penalty and RSL adapt their play to the scoreline, prevent Lambes goal and still win.

The errors change games, if they are not made the game does not change and the outcome is different, but not necessarily the outcome you want.

[2mil4dero+santo]

4's and 5's that's too funny.

gave him a 1. no 0 was available. Can we please have the scale expanded to include negative numbers?

I think a 5 was from Tim90...

[Roogsy]

OR, Frings scores the penalty and RSL adapt their play to the scoreline, prevent Lambes goal and still win.

The errors change games, if they are not made the game does not change and the outcome is different, but not necessarily the outcome you want.


If "ifs and buts" were candy and nuts...



I do believe RSL had 2 goals called back did they not? I go by results, not by postulating what could have been if things went our way more than the other. This is the whole "bad luck" argument all over again.

[Ben - D.O.W.]

If "ifs and buts" were candy and nuts...

I do believe RSL had 2 goals called back did they not? I go by results, not by postulating what could have been if things went our way more than the other. This is the whole "bad luck" argument all over again.

I get that - and I'm not rating him based on those 'could-have-been' wins. My point (and I obviously didn't make it clearly) was that Winter's tactics aren't the cause of those individual errors, nor in the case of Fring's mistakes are Winter's selections at fault (unless someone actually wants to argue that Fring shouldn't be a starter when available - I doubt there's any takers). So yeah I probably rate a couple categories higher than most of the people giving 1's - hence my 2.

Edit: Yeah rereading my last post - that's not really clear. My bad.

[Roogsy]

No you're right (as is everyone else who makes this point) that Winter cannot reasonably be blamed for Frings giving the ball away seconds into a game or some other mindfart other players might have.

The point those of us on this side of the argument have made though is that there are two influential points when addressing this concern.

1) All players make mistakes.
2) Does the coach do what is necessary to reduce those errors both through individual preparation and team preparation.

These arguments themselves have a lot of breadth. The first point addresses the fact that players on both sides make mistakes and so as a coach you have to have your team mentally prepared to both make as few mistakes as is possible as well as making sure when the other team makes a mistake, you capitalize on it. I am not sure we can confidently say Winter has done either.

The second point about preparation is key. It encompasses many aspects of the manager's role including making sure that the game tactics don't put particular pressure on any one player or leave team shortcomings open for exploitation. It also includes the ability a manager has to communicate his strategy to his team and motivate them to employ it effectively. Again, I question Winter's ability to do this.

Now all of this does not excuse player errors. They should be accountable, and ultimately they are. Players that make lots of errors eventually find themselves out of a job. And a player screw-up can definitely lose a game for the whole team. But when you are 0-7 and have only 14 wins in almost 60 games, I think player error being an influential factor in that record has long been thrown out the window. Because it speaks to a team without the necessary preparation and without the necessary tools to compete and overcome individual errors. Team that can do that are the ones that win. I submit that Winter does not provide his team with the tools they need to overcome the struggles of winning a game, which includes individual player errors.

[ExiledRed]

If "ifs and buts" were candy and nuts...



....Our sponsor would be Snickers!

[Ageroo]

But when you are 0-7 and have only 14 wins in almost 60 games, I think player error being an influential factor in that record has long been thrown out the window. Because it speaks to a team without the necessary preparation and without the necessary tools to compete and overcome individual errors. Team that can do that are the ones that win. I submit that Winter does not provide his team with the tools they need to overcome the struggles of winning a game, which includes individual player errors.

Not saying I am a Winter fan....but my measuring stick is from when I classify this as pretty much his team....which to me happened on July 20th of last season. That is when most of the trades took place.

So PRE(all the changes) we were 6 wins in 25 matches(All Matches)....POST(now more of less Winter's people) we are 8 wins in 32 matches. I didn't have the time to quickly tally up the draws.......not saying the "POST" era is much better, but just stating that my assessment of him really only starts from when Frings and co. came to the squad.

For the record I gave him a 2.....and I rounded up generously. :)

[Oldtimer]

I gave him 2 for April.

[Roogsy]

Not saying I am a Winter fan....but my measuring stick is from when I classify this as pretty much his team....which to me happened on July 20th of last season. That is when most of the trades took place.

So PRE(all the changes) we were 6 wins in 25 matches(All Matches)....POST(now more of less Winter's people) we are 8 wins in 32 matches. I didn't have the time to quickly tally up the draws.......not saying the "POST" era is much better, but just stating that my assessment of him really only starts from when Frings and co. came to the squad.

For the record I gave him a 2.....and I rounded up generously. :)

My personal opinion Age, you are doing your analysis a disservice.

The Pre-DP era is indicative in it's own right. It shows what Winter can do with a squad he has not had a factor in putting together (not much apparently). That in itself is evidence. Evidence he is limited in his ability to work with players. That evidence itself is augmented by the fact that a signficant amount of players within that grouping went on to have substantially more success elsewhere, pointing to a problem with the coaching, not the players.

Then you have the avec-DP era (current form) and that provides a new set of data upon which to add to the previous set. Proper analysis does not throw out one set in favour of the other, it includes both. And yet on it's own, the current data still shows poor performance. You don't even need the pre-DP data, on it's own, it's pretty bad, but inclusive of previous data, it's even worse.

What is conclusive is that both sets of data reflect poor results but that once the DPs arrived, we went from awful to just bad. Hardly a vote of confidence even if you take the most advantageous grouping of data and ignore the pre-DP era.

So going forward, people can group the data any way they like, but I think it is a signifcant mistake to ignore the pre-DP information at your hands. Because that DOES tell you something even if it isn't what you want to be told.

[__wowza]

Evidence he is limited in his ability to work with players. That evidence itself is augmented by the fact that a signficant amount of players within that grouping went on to have substantially more success elsewhere, pointing to a problem with the coaching, not the players.

you can also make the claim that some of our players have exited the club and gone on to do absolutely garbage elsewhere, but you also fail to mention the players who performed poorly before him, but performed well with him. let's look at the trades that've been made under him..

maicon santos: good if he has someone to pass back and forth with, but on his own, couldnt cut it alone up front. in a 4-4-2 you could mask the negatives and accentuate the positives, in the 4-3-3-, santos was not at his strongest.

attakora: went on to flounder with SJ, even the earthquakes fans tore him a new one after his first two games after his single handed mistakes cost them two separate matches.

tchani: hasnt seen much of anything with columbus.

gordon: is performing decently, but he scored more goals with us (4 in 8) than he did with chivas (1 in 9)

[jabbronies]

Jacob Peterson isn't a starter
O'Brian White - unfortunately done for 2012, only 4 goals for 2011


The only players who are having success are Dero, Maicon Santos and Nick Labrocca, All guys we never questioned their ability and did well here. I guess you could say Dan Gargan as well since he is still a starter.

[Whoop]

Here's more.



Steven Sandor ‏ @the11ca (https://twitter.com/#!/the11ca) According to ESPN, #TFC (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC) payroll is $8,370,923, #VWFC (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23VWFC) $4,202,583 and #IMFC (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23IMFC) $3,316,994

Yes, that's total payroll, not accounting for DPs and allocation.

Seems like TFC isn't getting their money's worth.

[narduch]

Here's more.



Yes, that's total payroll, not accounting for DPs and allocation.

Seems like TFC isn't getting their money's worth.

Here's the ESPN article with the numbers:

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7850531/espn-magazine-sportingintelligence-global-salary-survey-espn-magazine

Pretty interesting stuff. TFC has a higher payroll than a few SPL teams.

[Richard]

Here's the ESPN article with the numbers:

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7850531/espn-magazine-sportingintelligence-global-salary-survey-espn-magazine

Pretty interesting stuff. TFC has a higher payroll than a few SPL teams.


Wow, thats makes things even worse.

[Brooker]

I believe they were looking for that very reaction. :D

[trane]

Wow, Aberdeen, Hibernian and Dundee United? Now I would like to see us play them and see how we would do.

[Roogsy]

Here's more.



Yes, that's total payroll, not accounting for DPs and allocation.

Seems like TFC isn't getting their money's worth.

OMG...I was using 6mill as a TFC benchmark. You can only imagine how this exacerbates the issue...

A 2 year, $14million rebuild...in friggin MLS?

Utter madness.

[ExiledRed]

OK, Ive been watching this league since TFC began, and I gave up trying to figure out the cap, allocation, DP hit etc.... a while ago.

Can someone please explain what that 8 million figure represents?

How can we be so far above the cap?

[jloome]

OK, Ive been watching this league since TFC began, and I gave up trying to figure out the cap, allocation, DP hit etc.... a while ago.

Can someone please explain what that 8 million figure represents?

How can we be so far above the cap?

We have 3 dps. That's close to $6 million on its own when you count guaranteed compensation. We're maxed on the league cap of 2.7 and we've spent a little allocation as well.

Note: this is total payroll, so it DOES include our dps' off-cap salary.

[ExiledRed]

We have 3 dps. That's close to $6 million on its own when you count guaranteed compensation. We're maxed on the league cap of 2.7 and we've spent a little allocation as well.

ah, I thought somebody posted that the figure didnt include DP salaries over the cap. This makes more sense though and proves that any problem with MLSE has nothing to do with tight purse strings.

Incompetence sure, but not a failure to invest.

[Beach_Red]

I believe they were looking for that very reaction. :D

Instead of numbers, they might as well put "Kick me" signs on their backs.

[jloome]

ah, I thought somebody posted that the figure didnt include DP salaries over the cap. This makes more sense though and proves that any problem with MLSE has nothing to do with tight purse strings.

Incompetence sure, but not a failure to invest.

Or LA: $17,229,783

Holy schnikeys, that's nuts for MLS. They should be undefeated.

[ag futbol]

This is such a poor use of resources. Most of the DP's in this league are here to bring up the quality of play, not sell tickets (only so many Henry / Beckham's to go around).

TFC could have 20 players on 300k and another 10 on 200k for the same cash. Makes me want to puke, considering we have to watch borderline professionals stink it up at times.

Edit: There are several La Liga teams and a Series A teams that are extremely close to us in payroll. MLS needs to snap out of it...

[Whoop]

Just shows that MLS should increase their cap to something more reasonable like say at least $15,000,000 for the time being.

But will likely have to wait until the next CBA.

[denime]

This is such a poor use of resources. Most of the DP's in this league are here to bring up the quality of play, not sell tickets (only so many Henry / Beckham's to go around).

TFC could have 20 players on 300k and another 10 on 200k for the same cash. Makes me want to puke, considering we have to watch borderline professionals stink it up at times.

Edit: There are several La Liga teams and a Series A teams that are extremely close to us in payroll. MLS needs to snap out of it...

Yes they are,but they can spread 6 mil equally on all their players while in MLS 2.5mil on 27 players and 3.5 on 3 DPs.It's no brainier what team have better chance to succeed,so to compare non caped leagues with MLS is apples and oranges.

[ag futbol]

Yes they are,but they can spread 6 mil equally on all their players while in MLS 2.5mil on 27 players and 3.5 on 3 DPs.It's no brainier what team have better chance to succeed,so to compare non caped leagues with MLS is apples and oranges.
But that's my point, doesn't MLS want to give it's fans the best quality product possible? It can do a much better job of that with the same amount of money by having less designated players and more regular roster flexibility.

Hell, you could have one DP instead of three .. that still allows for a marquis name like a beckham while making sure he's not passing it to someone like Kevin Harmse who makes my eyes bleed watching him try to play the sport.

[TFCRegina]

Winter has dropped from a 2 to a 1 for me.

[Beach_Red]

But that's my point, doesn't MLS want to give it's fans the best quality product possible? It can do a much better job of that with the same amount of money by having less designated players and more regular roster flexibility.

Hell, you could have one DP instead of three .. that still allows for a marquis name like a beckham while making sure he's not passing it to someone like Kevin Harmse who makes my eyes bleed watching him try to play the sport.

MLS wants to give its fans the best American product possible. Would that roster flexibility make a big difference if it still had to spent on American (or Canadian) players? I don't know, I'm asking, are there a lot of American players in the $100,000 range they could convince to come back and play in MLS?

[BHTC Mike]

Just shows that MLS should increase their cap to something more reasonable like say at least $15,000,000 for the time being.

But will likely have to wait until the next CBA.
You realize of course that that would cost MLS LLC about $250mil USD per year, right?

Point of fact: MLS does not have a salary cap. It has salary budget that is payed for from shared revenues and covers one part of a team's total payroll. The longer people insist on using the anachronism of salary "cap" the longer the confusion will continue.

Read more here if you care about the really nerdy stuff: http://theugliestgame.blogspot.ca/2011/12/point-of-nomenclature.html

[Whoop]

^^
Thanks.

Reading that it's almost as if the league should have a cap but let the teams pay the salaries.

I mean I wonder if a $15mil "cap" would hurt the league or help the league, at this juncture?

[ag futbol]

MLS wants to give its fans the best American product possible. Would that roster flexibility make a big difference if it still had to spent on American (or Canadian) players? I don't know, I'm asking, are there a lot of American players in the $100,000 range they could convince to come back and play in MLS?
In the short run, it probably amounts to an increase in quality, but not an exponential one. You'd get way higher quality international players on average, a few more Canadians / Americans would come home from abroad, but it wouldn't eliminate the need for plumbers who you'd simply be overpaying for the first while.

In the long run, I think the results would be dramatic. Right now, if I was a young player with ambition of playing in Europe, I'd probably bypass MLS entirely unless it was my only option. Contract security is bad, track record of developing young talent isn't great, trades within the league are something you can't control, and to make matters even worse teams are sticklers when it comes to transfers. It would seem some guys would rather give up on the sport entirely rather than sign a MLS contract, which is pretty sad.

So by fixing those problems and providing a more reasonable starting salary, I think you'd be able to convince the vast majority of kids to stay home. If MLS got their act together, I think you'd capture the vast majority of the talent. Not only would you capture more of what's out there, but you'd effectively create a larger pool in the first place. Young players start to realize there's a decent pathway to the pros out there and start to stick with it more.

MLS just has to come to the realization that some of their cost control measures are bursting at the seams right now and leading to dysfunctional behavior. Not only that, but in the end a higher quality product will probably be the best thing for the bottom line. I think soccer in North America has gained a relatively decent level of acceptance, but you still have a large number of holdouts for MLS because let's face it: the quality still isn't there in some places.

[Ageroo]

My personal opinion Age, you are doing your analysis a disservice.

The Pre-DP era is indicative in it's own right. It shows what Winter can do with a squad he has not had a factor in putting together (not much apparently). That in itself is evidence. Evidence he is limited in his ability to work with players. That evidence itself is augmented by the fact that a signficant amount of players within that grouping went on to have substantially more success elsewhere, pointing to a problem with the coaching, not the players.

Then you have the avec-DP era (current form) and that provides a new set of data upon which to add to the previous set. Proper analysis does not throw out one set in favour of the other, it includes both. And yet on it's own, the current data still shows poor performance. You don't even need the pre-DP data, on it's own, it's pretty bad, but inclusive of previous data, it's even worse.

What is conclusive is that both sets of data reflect poor results but that once the DPs arrived, we went from awful to just bad. Hardly a vote of confidence even if you take the most advantageous grouping of data and ignore the pre-DP era.

So going forward, people can group the data any way they like, but I think it is a signifcant mistake to ignore the pre-DP information at your hands. Because that DOES tell you something even if it isn't what you want to be told.

But isn't awful to bad an improvement....;) haha

I am not ignoring the data pre-Dp Roogs.....just saying that my opinion on the man is from when I see that he has had a squad that he has more or less assembled....and as you said the post-DP era isn't anything to write home about either. I hate this revolving door of coaches as many do and I am sure you'd love to see him succeed. You like so many others in this city just want to see a winner.......right now no team in this city can really stake that claim.

[Roogsy]

I hate this revolving door of coaches as many do and I am sure you'd love to see him succeed. You like so many others in this city just want to see a winner.......right now no team in this city can really stake that claim.

Hating the revolving door of coaches is understandable. But if I recall correctly, we also hated the revolving door of players and yet we accepted this regime's process of going through that process at an even higher rate than before. And Winter is STILL talking about more changes at the player level. Just like you accepted player changes were necessary even though we had gone through so many, just the same sometimes you have accept that coaching changes are necessary even though we have gone through so many.

Dude...at some point the desire for stability at the coaching position has to give way to the argument that perhaps he isn't the right guy and stability at the position just for the sake of stability actually does more damage than good.

[Ageroo]

Hating the revolving door of coaches is understandable. But if I recall correctly, we also hated the revolving door of players and yet we accepted this regime's process of going through that process at an even higher rate than before. And Winter is STILL talking about more changes at the player level. Just like you accepted player changes were necessary even though we had gone through so many, just the same sometimes you have accept that coaching changes are necessary even though we have gone through so many.

Dude...at some point the desire for stability at the coaching position has to give way to the argument that perhaps he isn't the right guy and stability at the position just for the sake of stability actually does more damage than good.

I never said he was the right man at any point....haha. Just don't like the revolving door my friend. And yes....keeping him in place could hinder us more then help us of course.....and so can moving players so much as well. The more players you move in and out...the longer it takes for a team to gel.

[Ageroo]

At this point this team needs a vat of crazy glue to gel...that's for sure. :)

[__wowza]

just a quick snapshot at winter's rating after 87 votes:

1.87 star rating
37.4% - F

it's his lowest rating yet and so far the only rating under 50% he's received since last may
(our biggest home defeat in franchise history, losing 6-2 to philly)

[Juanito]

I can't see how anybody can give him anything higher than a two (2), and that's being generous.

I gave him a one (1). I could go on on some long soliloquy of why I gave him that, but here's the Coles notes; we haven't won beans and this is his team, can't pass the buck anymore sunshine.

[Roogsy]

:lol:

I love Johnny!

[trane]

I can't see how anybody can give him anything higher than a two (2), and that's being generous.

I gave him a one (1). I could go on on some long soliloquy of why I gave him that, but here's the Coles notes; we haven't won beans and this is his team, can't pass the buck anymore sunshine.

I agree even his mother would have to admit that April was horrible. So 0-1-2 is all he can get for April. As only 1 and 2 are available, a "activists supporter" can only say 1, and a "REAL supporter" can only say 2, because it was awful but the team did some things right, like get to the game on time, and were the correct jersey.

[Juanito]

I agree even his mother would have to admit that April was horrible. So 0-1-2 is all he can get for April. As only 1 and 2 are available, a "activists supporter" can only say 1, and a "REAL supporter" can only say 2, because it was awful but the team did some things right, like get to the game on time, and were the correct jersey.

HA HA HA! Good stuff trane, you deserve a sticker!

[Juanito]

How long do we wait before we sack the man?

If we happen to win the next match, is everything going to go back to sunshine and lollipops?

I certainly hope not. I'd like to think our supporters are not so forgiving.

[trane]

^ Dude, why are you so impatient? Like we scored a few goals, we played some attractive football, we drank some beer, sang some songs, it is all good.

[Juanito]

^ Dude, why are you so impatient? Like we scored a few goals, we played some attractive football, we drank some beer, sang some songs, it is all good.

I'm sorry trane, are you being serious? I can never tell.

[trane]

^ No, I am not being serious. I am not sure if you have followed, the back and forth, but I am one of those impatient supporters who are calling for Winter to go.

[Roogsy]

I agree even his mother would have to admit that April was horrible. So 0-1-2 is all he can get for April. As only 1 and 2 are available, a "activists supporter" can only say 1, and a "REAL supporter" can only say 2, because it was awful but the team did some things right, like get to the game on time, and were the correct jersey.

I disagree!






Those "supporters" jerseys were god awful. LOL!

[trane]

^ OK so the most people can reasonably give him is 1 star. Which also the least.

[narduch]

I wish there was a 0 option. That's what I wanted to give.

[ExiledRed]

Actually it should go into the negatives.

When winter started, we were told the shitty start was because he had to clean up Prekis mess, and we shouldnt chide him until he's cleaned house.

Well he's cleaned house and now look at the salary mess thats going to be left for the next guy after all this.

Once hes gone we'll be picking up pieces into 2015

[Juanito]

^ No, I am not being serious. I am not sure if you have followed, the back and forth, but I am one of those impatient supporters who are calling for Winter to go.

HA HA HA! I see.

[trane]

So, here is a philosophical question for you, is the draw last night, the continuation of a win less streak or the beginning of a undefeated streak?

[__wowza]

So, here is a philosophical question for you, is the draw last night, the continuation of a win less streak or the beginning of a undefeated streak?

depends what youd rather drink this season, a glass of piss or a glass of shit.
ive been vocal about keeping him around, but goddamn last nights game shook me.

[Roogsy]

depends what youd rather drink this season, a glass of piss or a glass of shit.
ive been vocal about keeping him around, but goddamn last nights game shook me.


Is this even debateable??? :lol:

[__wowza]

Is this even debateable??? :lol:

did i mention the person pissing has a urinary tract infection and just ate asparagus?

[Juanito]

So, here is a philosophical question for you, is the draw last night, the continuation of a win less streak or the beginning of a undefeated streak?

Luckily, I spared myself that match and only watch the last 10 minutes or so.

For me, it's too little, too late. Even if they win on Saturday, my opinion of him will not change.

I think he has a good football mind, but he is a poor coach. We need a coach that can get the most out of his players. I just don't see that from this man.

[trane]

^ I have to say that I agree. I realy think it is time to turn a new leaf, and I hope it happens soon. He may salvage something on Saturday, but it is likely unavoidable that he has to go.

[Roogsy]

There's the old adage, those who can, do. And those who can't, teach.

I think it works in reverse as well.

Few great players make great coaches. There are exceptions of course, but I don't think it's a coincidences that the great coaches in most sports tend to be guys who didn't really succeed at the playing level.

I think this is the case with Winter. Yes a great player. But sorry, this guy is no great coach. And with what TFC fans have had to suffer, they needed to bring in a quality coach, not take a gamble on an unproven guy just because he has great playing pedigree.

[tfcleeds]

Even if we get the win this weekend and avoid the infamy of having a MLS record all to ourselves, there is no guarantee whatsoever the floodgates will open, and we'll go on a win streak. Making the playoffs with Winter in charge at this point will be a Sisyphean task.

[DavydMT]

oh and seven.
what the hell is happenin?
thought it would be different
thought we would become champions.
http://fanchants.co.uk/football-songs/celt...s/champions-67/ (http://fanchants.co.uk/football-songs/celtic-chants/champions-67/)

by canadian_bhoy

[trane]

depends what youd rather drink this season, a glass of piss or a glass of shit.
ive been vocal about keeping him around, but goddamn last nights game shook me.


What kind of debate is this. You do not drink a glass of shit, you eat it.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

you eat the glass with the shit?
damn man, thats next level

[__wowza]

What kind of debate is this. You do not drink a glass of shit, you eat it.

i demand a poll!!

[Roogsy]

Two girls one cup answers this question...

[spark]

I like how this thread has turned into The Aristocrats.

[Davenport]

20% have voted 3 stars or better.
WTF are they on ?

[denime]

20% have voted 3 stars or better.
WTF are they on ?

Dutch :stogey:

[Davenport]

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/weed1.gif

[trane]

i demand a poll!!

I would start one, but it would get closed.

[__wowza]

I would start one, but it would get closed.

it's funny cause it's true!! :lol:

[Just One Man]

He is quantifiably the worst coach in MLS history.

But nooooo.....firing him wouldn't do the team any good. :facepalm: