Should we start acquiring MLS players?

[Doucet3]

Just a thought, weve been signing a lot of foreign players and it's been kind of hit n miss (then again so has our MLS acquisitions) but why don't we spend some cash and get a MLS established CB, ST, an CM our 2 south American CBs we signed turned bust and went bal home and the other is really hit n miss on the pitch.

Why don't we go pick up a couple MLS vets just to help stabilize the team.

[Nuvinho]

- Danny Califf (CB) from Philly - somewhat out of favour with Novak
- Joel Lindpere (MF) from NYRB - definately out of favour with Backe
- Dejan Jakovic (CB) from DCU - with recent injuries, won't be able to acquire him.

[DoubleUp]

- Danny Califf (CB) from Philly - somewhat out of favour with Novak
- Joel Lindpere (MF) from NYRB - definately out of favour with Backe
- Dejan Jakovic (CB) from DCU - with recent injuries, won't be able to acquire him.

out of the 3 i would be looking at lindpere.

Our next cb should be athletic, not just big.

we should looke for a cb from the brazilian serie B:

1.Domingos Nascimento dos Santos Filho
2.Jorge Luiz
3.Léo Fortunato

all 3 out of contract
and would be in our price range and possess the technical ability we need.

[BayernTFC]

but why don't we spend some cash and get a MLS established CB, ST, an CM
You mean like Tyrone Marshall, Nick Garcia, Ty Harden or Andy Iro at CB? Jeff Cunningham or Carlos Ruiz at ST? Did Nathan Sturgis or Nick Labrocca work out well for us at CM?


Why don't we go pick up a couple MLS vets just to help stabilize the team.
Because that approach has worked well for TFC in the past? Who and how? What will it cost us?

[Yohan]

Don't get the hate on Marshall. he wasn't spectacular, but he was a very solid MLS CB

[Jack]

You mean like Tyrone Marshall, Nick Garcia, Ty Harden or Andy Iro at CB? Jeff Cunningham or Carlos Ruiz at ST? Did Nathan Sturgis or Nick Labrocca work out well for us at CM?
Tyrone Marshall and Nick Labrocca are both better options than what we currently have. Cunningham scored 33 in 66 for Dallas. Sturgis...meh.

Again...our coaching seems to lack the ability to get the best of our players, then they leave and do much better elsewhere.

[__wowza]

Sturgis...meh.
just last week i was reading an article on MLS about how sturgis was a godsend for being able to play two positions. not having a hate on for sturgis or anything, but i don't feel he played either of those positions that well anyway, at least not as much as cochrane did.

[ExiledRed]

Its odd, whenever good players get trade away, people start pretending they were crap.

We could do MUCH worse than Marshall or Labrocca.... and we have.

[Jack]

Labrocca who was an all-star last season?

[ArmenJBX]

Chad Barrett should still be here.
Nick LaBrocca should still be here.
Todd Dunivant should still be here.
Sam Cronin should still be here.
Nathan Sturgis should still be here.
Jacob Peterson should still be here.
Marvell Wynne, so help me, should still be in this team.

Because if you're telling me you'd rather have Doneil Henry over Marvell Wynne, Matt Stinson over Nick LaBrocca, Oscar Cordon over Sam Cronin, Nick Lindsay over Jacob Peterson, Julian de Guzman (at 350k cap hit, 2 million overall!) over Nathan Sturgis, and Keith Makubuya over Chad Barrett, we have a problem.

The only player from this "pro-Canada" idea that has any value is Ashtone Morgan, right now. The other academy players are awesome, but they're not ready to be relied on just yet. It also stunts their development if they're thrown into the fire under that kind of pressure (a la Luis Silva).

Montreal has three Canadians.
Vancouver has three Canadians.

Toronto FC only needs Ashtone Morgan, Terry Dunfield, and one of Matt Stinson or Doneil Henry. They shouldn't be automatic starters either, nor should they be on the bench every single game.

The rest of our players, yanks.

[West220Side]

Labrocca who was an all-star last season?

While we're talking about MLS quality talent, and MLS (attacking) Midfielders that we've traded away.

http://i.thestar.com/images/46/6a/fa2bb51b48ecaaa9f3e22f7daab0.jpeg

Just saying.

[Jack]

Oh shit...it's a DeRo thread! g:D

[Roogsy]

Oh shit...it's a DeRo thread! g:D





My ears were burning... :lol:

[ExiledRed]

Chad Barrett should still be here.


Ok lets not get too carried away here.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Because if you're telling me you'd rather have Doneil Henry over Marvell Wynne, Matt Stinson over Nick LaBrocca, Oscar Cordon over Sam Cronin, Nick Lindsay over Jacob Peterson, Julian de Guzman (at 350k cap hit, 2 million overall!) over Nathan Sturgis, and Keith Makubuya over Chad Barrett, we have a problem

Except all of the players that you listed (minus JDG) don't count against our cap. And the players you wish we had (and outside of LaBrocca and Cronin aren't an improvement, also Cronin and Cordon play different positions) would cost the team $791,000 against our cap (based on last years numbers). And outside of JDG none of the players you listed on regular starters.

[ArmenJBX]

Dollar for Dollars was not what I was going for.
It's roster spots and priorities.

If you prioritize the development of Canadian youth for immediate impact in the first team, you compromise the fundamental building blocks of an MLS team - American players.

The $800k required of them can be easily acquired if we got rid of Julian de Guzman and certain players like Aceval, Harden, etc etc.
However, the philosophy is the problem in my books. We choose to focus on our academy as a key building block, when in reality, it's those American players that are the true staple of this league.

[DangerRed]

Chad Barrett should still be here.
Nick LaBrocca should still be here.
Todd Dunivant should still be here.
Sam Cronin should still be here.
Nathan Sturgis should still be here.
Jacob Peterson should still be here.
Marvell Wynne, so help me, should still be in this team.


Chad: yes, depth forward
Todd: no, just no.
Sam: Meh. Always found him over-rated, even if with a good heart.
Nathan: Come the fuck on. Definition of a talentless pylon. Harden-class.
Jacob: I'll let that go just because it's you, but it's fucking Uncle Jake we're talking about
Marvell: if we were running a track team, then yes, he's fast as a motherfucker. But this is a football club, so no.

[BayernTFC]

Don't get the hate on Marshall. he wasn't spectacular, but he was a very solid MLS CB
I don't hate Tyrone Marshall myself. TFC still had issues in central defense when he was here and he didn't go short of detractors either. TFC traded Edson Buddle to the Galaxy for him (a proven MLS CB). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe that he is currently starting for Colorado this season.

[Yohan]

I don't hate Tyrone Marshall myself. TFC still had issues in central defense when he was here and he didn't go short of detractors either. TFC traded Edson Buddle to the Galaxy for him (a proven MLS CB). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe that he is currently starting for Colorado this season.Marshall was good in Toronto, it's just that his partner was so shit. Marshall ended up starting many games for Seattle after Toronto, and provided good depth in Colorado, even at age 35.

[ag futbol]

Ok lets not get too carried away here.
Needless running and wasted effort are a beautiful thing you know.

I swear Chad Barrett is due to break out this year (repeat every year until he retires)

[Flipityflu]

I have a hard time thinking of a CB better than Tyrone Marshall was. not sure what that says about us, but he certainly was solid.

[BayernTFC]

Tyrone Marshall and Nick Labrocca are both better options than what we currently have. Cunningham scored 33 in 66 for Dallas. Sturgis...meh.
The list I posted are all examples of players that were MLS proven before they came to TFC. What did they do for us? Did they answer any of our problems? What did we give up to get them? I doubt a 37 year old Tyrone Marshall who is currently a back up in Colorado would be a solution to our problems now. We still have the same problems at the back that we did when he was here and he wasn't the solution then either. Labrocca was traded for Alan Gordon, who was packaged in the deal for Ryan Johnson. I know who I'd rather have. It's great that Labrocca has found success with Chivas, but TFC couldn't advance the ball with him in the middle of the pitch. I certainly wasn't saying that I wished we had Labrocca back after watching him play against us when Chivas was in Toronto a couple of weeks back.



Again...our coaching seems to lack the ability to get the best of our players, then they leave and do much better elsewhere.
I certainly don't disagree that historically, TFC coaches have failed to get the most out of some players. Using players who lack fundamental skills in a 4-3-3 formation is asking for trouble. Weaknesses are quickly exposed and mistakes are plentiful. Do we really want to be arguing over who is the better spare part?

[BayernTFC]

Marshall was good in Toronto, it's just that his partner was so shit. Marshall ended up starting many games for Seattle after Toronto, and provided good depth in Colorado, even at age 35.
I won't bother contesting anything that you've said. If we had Marshall back right now, who would his partner be? How fast is Marshall nowadays?

[Jack]

I'm not really arguing about it, just pointing out something I find interesting. I don't have the time, but I wonder if we looked at how many guys we've sent on their way to prosperity while also looking at who we've taken in who have been shitty here.

I mean, Guevara had some pretty darn good seasons here. Not MVP level like he used to be, but still more than acceptable. DeRo's scenario was similar. But I feel like we've had more guys come here and not do well who then move on and perform in other places. That, to me, points to a lack of understanding on the part of our management on what it takes to be successful in MLS. Buddle, Labrocca and Dunivant are the three who stand out the most. Sure, we got Gordon who turned into Johnson, who has been good for us, but he wasn't an MLS all-star. Hindsight is 20/20, no question, but eventually, when you look back and see a bad trend, then you have to ask why.

[Yohan]

I won't bother contesting anything that you've said. If we had Marshall back right now, who would his partner be? How fast is Marshall nowadays?

I'm not arguing for getting Marshall back in Toronto now. I am saying that Marshall wasn't shit during his time in Toronto

[jabbronies]

Chad Barrett should still be here.
Nick LaBrocca should still be here.
Todd Dunivant should still be here.
Sam Cronin should still be here.
Nathan Sturgis should still be here.
Jacob Peterson should still be here.
Marvell Wynne, so help me, should still be in this team.



Barret, Peterson and wynne were shit.

Everyone else was good.

[ArmenJBX]

Wynne is better than any Centerback we have right now.
Peterson hits a corner better than Plata and could be counted on to receive a cross.
Barrett can get at least five goals a season which makes him better than our current back up forward, Mr....oh wait! We don't have one! We convert our leftwing, CAM Ryan Johnson into a striker because if DK and Johnson go down, better start Makubuya!

[ArmenJBX]

In any case, Barrett and Peterson shouldn't start but are better on the bench than anything else we have, unfortunately.

[MartinUtd]

Strugis and Peterson? REALLY?

[ArmenJBX]

Strugis and Peterson? REALLY?

Yes sir.

I'd rather Nathan Sturgis and Jacob Peterson than our current options for substitute defensive midfielder and substitute winger. If you're telling me Stinson and Makubuya are superior alternatives than I guess I respectfully disagree :D

[BayernTFC]

I'm not really arguing about it, just pointing out something I find interesting. I don't have the time, but I wonder if we looked at how many guys we've sent on their way to prosperity while also looking at who we've taken in who have been shitty here.
Yes, I think that's an interesting point too. I think it would make an interesting statistic beside the TFC trade success to trade failure ratio. I don't have the time now either.


I mean, Guevara had some pretty darn good seasons here. Not MVP level like he used to be, but still more than acceptable. DeRo's scenario was similar. But I feel like we've had more guys come here and not do well who then move on and perform in other places. That, to me, points to a lack of understanding on the part of our management on what it takes to be successful in MLS. Buddle, Labrocca and Dunivant are the three who stand out the most. Sure, we got Gordon who turned into Johnson, who has been good for us, but he wasn't an MLS all-star. Hindsight is 20/20, no question, but eventually, when you look back and see a bad trend, then you have to ask why.
Mine would be Buddle, Dunivant and Cronin. Guevara was a player I was sad to see let go. I don't imagine he would have fit in to Preki's bunker ball system very well though. Sometimes it can be a case of a player's skill set not matching those needed in the system/formation. Sometimes personality clashes between player and coach can create a mismatch. I think the lack of understanding from management that you speak of can explain many of the :facepalm: decisions made over the years.

[Ajax TFC]

I'd honestly rather have Sturgis starting every game than Duncefield. It was a mistake to offload him in the off season

[BayernTFC]

I'm not arguing for getting Marshall back in Toronto now. I am saying that Marshall wasn't shit during his time in Toronto
I'm sorry. I was being a bit cheeky and using your response in the greater context of the discussion. Jack made the comment about Tyrone Marshall being a better option than what we currently have. We traded Edson Buddle for Tyrone Marshall and TFC's central defense didn't improve greatly. Marshall wasn't the type of player to elevate TFC's team defense or cover for the lack of talent in his partner. TFC needs a player in central defense with the quality that Torsten Frings brings to the squad and specifically the midfield. In the end Marshall was given away for nothing and TFC still has issues. Will fans get what they want this time around if TFC brings in a solid MLS CB who can't elevate his partner? Will said player be shielded from blame? What would TFC be required to give up for said privilege?

[Greatest Ripoff]

Dollar for Dollars was not what I was going for.
It's roster spots and priorities.

If you prioritize the development of Canadian youth for immediate impact in the first team, you compromise the fundamental building blocks of an MLS team - American players.

The $800k required of them can be easily acquired if we got rid of Julian de Guzman and certain players like Aceval, Harden, etc etc.
However, the philosophy is the problem in my books. We choose to focus on our academy as a key building block, when in reality, it's those American players that are the true staple of this league.

Nut none of the Canadian players you mentioned took the spot of sturgus, peterson or any of the other you listed. You could have all of those Canadian players on the Toronto roster and there would still be room for the players you want. It was the management's decision to move those players out (wrongly or rightly, you decide) but it has nothing to do with the signing home grown players.

[69Chevy396]

Nut none of the Canadian players you mentioned took the spot of sturgus, peterson or any of the other you listed. You could have all of those Canadian players on the Toronto roster and there would still be room for the players you want. It was the management's decision to move those players out (wrongly or rightly, you decide) but it has nothing to do with the signing home grown players.

No mention of Alan Gordon? Guy got injured then traded. He is a better striker than Koevermans in my opinion,

[jabbronies]

No mention of Alan Gordon? Guy got injured then traded. He is a better striker than Koevermans in my opinion,

And was injured more than he was healthy, even after he left.
Pretty sure he missed most of last season with...an injury.

[MartinUtd]

Yes sir.

I'd rather Nathan Sturgis and Jacob Peterson than our current options for substitute defensive midfielder and substitute winger. If you're telling me Stinson and Makubuya are superior alternatives than I guess I respectfully disagree :D


Yes I am. Stinson is better than Sturgis, costs one third the price and is five years younger. I've seen decapitated chickens that were more organized that Jacob Peterson as well. You've either lost the plot or are arguing it for the sake of it. You've made good talking points in the past so it has to be the latter.

[ArmenJBX]

Yes I am. Stinson is better than Sturgis, costs one third the price and is five years younger. I've seen decapitated chickens that were more organized that Jacob Peterson as well. You've either lost the plot or are arguing it for the sake of it. You've made good talking points in the past so it has to be the latter.

Truly, I say to you, I would prefer the other two, and play them properly like an MLS team should. Sturgis, in his years in Seattle, was fantastic, but that was in a midfield-heavy team, which Toronto FC is not anymore. Peterson, in Colorado, played well, and you know what, sure, he had a poor first touch, but he was good on the dead ball, crossed in well, and scored a few goals for us too. He was a serviceable player and we shouldn't have gotten rid of him (or played him at right back!)

Same with Dan Gargan. Same with Marvell Wynne. Same with the rest of um. We traded them away and got little in return. Now we're a mix of old DPs, random rookies and academy graduates.

The only players in our team that would make it in other rosters are Eric Avila, Luis Silva, Reggie Lambe, Richard Eckersley, Adrian Cann and Terry Dunfield.

[jloome]

You mean like Tyrone Marshall, Nick Garcia, Ty Harden or Andy Iro at CB? Jeff Cunningham or Carlos Ruiz at ST? Did Nathan Sturgis or Nick Labrocca work out well for us at CM?


Because that approach has worked well for TFC in the past? Who and how? What will it cost us?

Disingenuous argument, Bayern. Harden retired after one season with the league's worst defnce, Iro was never rated and replaced by Julius James before we traded for him (and James is shit, so what does that say) Cunningham had one more good season but was always hit or miss, which is why Sigi got rid of him in Columbus , and Ruiz was even more of a headcase, as evidenced by his six-game comeback in Philly.

None of these guys, except maybe Tyrone, were highly desired in MLS. They were all fliers taken by Mo or Mariner. And Marshall was already regarded as past it when we got him.

We probably could have had Jeff Parke and passed on him, which was stupid; we could have kept Cronin, which was Preki's biggest mistake, bar none; we could've kept Marvell, but it didn't occur to our manager that a guy with a 38" vertical leap might be able to play centre back. We were offered Camillo Sanvezzo before he went to Vancouver and both Jhon Kennedy Hurtado and Ozzie Alonso were shopped to every team in the league by their agents, with only Seattle and Chivas even interested.

We've had lots of chances to get guys and either passed on it or they wouldn't come to TO.

[jloome]

Chad Barrett should still be here.
Nick LaBrocca should still be here.
Todd Dunivant should still be here.
Sam Cronin should still be here.
Nathan Sturgis should still be here.
Jacob Peterson should still be here.
Marvell Wynne, so help me, should still be in this team.

Because if you're telling me you'd rather have Doneil Henry over Marvell Wynne, Matt Stinson over Nick LaBrocca, Oscar Cordon over Sam Cronin, Nick Lindsay over Jacob Peterson, Julian de Guzman (at 350k cap hit, 2 million overall!) over Nathan Sturgis, and Keith Makubuya over Chad Barrett, we have a problem.

The only player from this "pro-Canada" idea that has any value is Ashtone Morgan, right now. The other academy players are awesome, but they're not ready to be relied on just yet. It also stunts their development if they're thrown into the fire under that kind of pressure (a la Luis Silva).

Montreal has three Canadians.
Vancouver has three Canadians.

Toronto FC only needs Ashtone Morgan, Terry Dunfield, and one of Matt Stinson or Doneil Henry. They shouldn't be automatic starters either, nor should they be on the bench every single game.

The rest of our players, yanks.

Come off it Armen, that's not a fair comparison. Makubya isn't making $225,000 to miss four out of five chances, Peterson wasn't rated by anyone else here for ANYTHING he did, and Sturgis has always been a back up in this league and always will be.

But you're absolutely right on Dunivant, Cronin, Labrocca and Wynne. I'd say most people on here agreed that when they were released, except maybe Marvell, and that was Gary Smith's foresight that turned that around.

[jloome]

Truly, I say to you, I would prefer the other two, and play them properly like an MLS team should. Sturgis, in his years in Seattle, was fantastic, but that was in a midfield-heavy team, which Toronto FC is not anymore. Peterson, in Colorado, played well, and you know what, sure, he had a poor first touch, but he was good on the dead ball, crossed in well, and scored a few goals for us too. He was a serviceable player and we shouldn't have gotten rid of him (or played him at right back!)

Same with Dan Gargan. Same with Marvell Wynne. Same with the rest of um. We traded them away and got little in return. Now we're a mix of old DPs, random rookies and academy graduates.

The only players in our team that would make it in other rosters are Eric Avila, Luis Silva, Reggie Lambe, Richard Eckersley, Adrian Cann and Terry Dunfield.

Dunfield? Please, do me a favor and check his stats for this season, go over the distribution charts from th past three games. He is, bar none, the worst player on this team. Against RSL, he had 1 tackle completed and was dispossessed six times, completing 70% of his passes, of which more than two-thirds went backwards.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-04-28-rsl-v-tor/chalkboard

He was awful. Go back and check the chalkboards for the prior games. For the season he's completing less than 70% of passes (acceptable in MLS is right around 80%), he is tackled nearly four times as often as he tackles others and he routinely cannot get the ball forward.

The stats say he's awful, but don't just count the stats. Look at the positional distribution pattern for our l ast game and you'll see he hardly came anywhere near our defensive end, which is absolutely egregious for a two-way mid.

He's awful. That many stats do not lie.

[ArmenJBX]

When I say a player should be on our team it doesn't mean he should start.
But Dunfield is serviceable and experienced. Yes, he isn't hitting passes but at the same time, the ones that are coming off go over to the wing backs, providing distribution. Is there anyway to see where the successful passes are going?

Other midfielders in this league pass to closer midfielders in a 4-4-2, instead of distributing wide and allowing for wingback play. It's a tougher pass to make than normal, which explains the lower success rate.

[ExiledRed]

Yes, he isn't hitting passes but at the same time, the ones that are coming off go over to the wing backs, providing distribution. Is there anyway to see where the successful passes are going?


His succesful passes go to the keeper.

[jloome]

When I say a player should be on our team it doesn't mean he should start.
But Dunfield is serviceable and experienced. Yes, he isn't hitting passes but at the same time, the ones that are coming off go over to the wing backs, providing distribution. Is there anyway to see where the successful passes are going?

Other midfielders in this league pass to closer midfielders in a 4-4-2, instead of distributing wide and allowing for wingback play. It's a tougher pass to make than normal, which explains the lower success rate.

Doesn't give him a pass on two of three going backwards, or on the fact that he's tackled six times and loses the ball for every one he makes. Yeah, as a backup, maybe. Even then I just don't see much upside, although he does have a good sense of professionalism I guess.

[ArmenJBX]

Tackled stat is useless information, every midfielder is tackled because that is the position on the field with the most congestion.
Anyway, I'm not making excuses for him - I'm saying he is what he is; a backup midfielder, one that we can use in this team.

[prizby]

to acquire mls players, we have to give up mls players..just sayin'

[ExiledRed]

to acquire mls players, we have to give up mls players..just sayin'

Or we could stop trading our consolatory high picks for goats, and get some brand new up and comers.

[jloome]

I checked the numbers definitively; of his last 50 complete passes, 38 of them have gone backwards.

However, Armen's right that he has value as a roll player; he's had two good games statistically this season as well. (not impressive, just passable.) Against Montreal he was over 80% (albeit mostly sideways, switching field) and had three tackles.

[ArmenJBX]

Backwards backwards, or backwards towards Morgan and Eckersley?
If that counts as backwards, it's not a bad thing, in fact, it's an asset. We need a wide distributor. If it's to Centerbacks/Goalies, then we have an issue of confidence going forward.

[ExiledRed]

Backwards backwards, or backwards towards Morgan and Eckersley?
If that counts as backwards, it's not a bad thing, in fact, it's an asset. We need a wide distributor. If it's to Centerbacks/Goalies, then we have an issue of confidence going forward.

Watch him closely, he's hesitating when he has a chance to go forward, as if he's remembering 'oh yes, at no cost play it forward' and then he turns around, looks for someone to square it to and if theres nobody, he's going backwards.

He will do this nine times out of ten, even if the opposition half and even when we have forward momentum. jloomes diagram shows one succesful pass into the box, which blew me away when i saw it. I would almost bet he got disciplined for that.

[T-boy]

Chad: yes, depth forward
Todd: no, just no.
Sam: Meh. Always found him over-rated, even if with a good heart.
Nathan: Come the fuck on. Definition of a talentless pylon. Harden-class.
Jacob: I'll let that go just because it's you, but it's fucking Uncle Jake we're talking about
Marvell: if we were running a track team, then yes, he's fast as a motherfucker. But this is a football club, so no.

Barrett's running would be a fanastic addition to our current squad. I always liked him.
Why no to Dunivant? He's been a regular in the best team in the league for the last two seasons? Why wouldn't you want him to play for TFC?!
Cronin is better than JDG at the fraction of the price.
Sturgiss, the same as Cronin - and I don't think Sturgis ever got a good enough run in the first team for us to rate him.
I never liked Peterson, but he'd be a worthwhile depth player, especially as all our depth players are all really young in midfield.
Wynne I would resign in a heartbeat, and convert to the fastest winger in the league!

[T-boy]

You mean like Tyrone Marshall, Nick Garcia, Ty Harden or Andy Iro at CB? Jeff Cunningham or Carlos Ruiz at ST? Did Nathan Sturgis or Nick Labrocca work out well for us at CM?


Because that approach has worked well for TFC in the past? Who and how? What will it cost us?


For all the MLS players you name that haven't worked out, I can name an equal amount that DID work out! You aren't always going to be successful signing players, but some work out and some don't. I can name just as many non-MLS signings that haven't worked out too! Welsh, Stefanovic, Robert, those two Eastern European full backs who were both terrible. But that doesn't prove that signing non-MLS players isn't effective either!

[T-boy]

I checked the numbers definitively; of his last 50 complete passes, 38 of them have gone backwards.

However, Armen's right that he has value as a roll player; he's had two good games statistically this season as well. (not impressive, just passable.) Against Montreal he was over 80% (albeit mostly sideways, switching field) and had three tackles.

If you go by De Klerk and Winter's numbering system, and how the players should pass, Dunfield should nearly always pass backwards or sideways. That's the way this system works. CB passes to either FB or DM. DM then receives the pass and has options to play to his other DM, to the FB, or to the winger.

so, is dunfield just a negative player, OR is he following the strict passing instructions of this "system"? I don't think we can judge Dunfield on this, as he's probably merely following the instructions by the coaches!

Everybody keeps saying that they don't want "long ball football" - but you equally have to realise that this total football system involves a lot of side and backwards passing to slowly building through the opponent. I just find the total football slow and laborious! I'd much rather a long ball sometimes to get a quick attack going! Long ball football is very underrated sometimes, IMO.

I do think dunfield has more in his locker than sideways and backwards but he's probably just following the coaches instructions on where to place his passes.

[BayernTFC]

Disingenuous argument, Bayern. Harden retired after one season with the league's worst defnce, Iro was never rated and replaced by Julius James before we traded for him (and James is shit, so what does that say) Cunningham had one more good season but was always hit or miss, which is why Sigi got rid of him in Columbus , and Ruiz was even more of a headcase, as evidenced by his six-game comeback in Philly.
You are entitled to your opinion, but there is nothing disingenuous about my argument. This is a thread about acquiring MLS players. All those listed had MLS experience before TFC acquired them. Which MLS players have been offered to TFC in trades or have been available in the off season for signings and willing to come to Toronto? Most MLS teams aren't giving up their starters. I don't know why Philadelphia offers Sebastien Le Toux to Vancouver over other teams? Would Toronto have been able to fit Kenny Cooper under the cap? Did we want him? Would he want to play in TO?


None of these guys, except maybe Tyrone, were highly desired in MLS. They were all fliers taken by Mo or Mariner. And Marshall was already regarded as past it when we got him.
I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but isn't it mostly the castoffs who are available? Of all the MLS players acquired by TFC last year in trades, who were starting or even contributing much to their former teams before arriving:

Nathan Sturgis
Alan Gordon
Tony Tchani
Danleigh Borman
Ryan Johnson
Andy Iro
Leandre Griffit
Dasan Robinson
Peri Marosevic
Eric Avila
Kyle Davies

Some of those listed were repackaged in trades for other who are listed. Now we found and still have useful pieces in Eric Avila and Ryan Johnson, but we subtracted DeRo and Maicon Santos (some might add Attakora, Nick Labrocca and Nathan Sturgis). I still ask the question, who is available to TFC from inside MLS now and what will it cost to acquire them?


We probably could have had Jeff Parke and passed on him, which was stupid; we could have kept Cronin, which was Preki's biggest mistake, bar none; we could've kept Marvell, but it didn't occur to our manager that a guy with a 38" vertical leap might be able to play centre back.
I don't necesaarily disagree with what you are saying here either. This still comes down to identifying talent and personnel decisions. I'd like to see TFC's ratio of successful acquisitions to failed acquisitions. Has TFC historically received better talent than we have given away? What's the ratio like under current management?


We were offered Camillo Sanvezzo before he went to Vancouver and both Jhon Kennedy Hurtado and Ozzie Alonso were shopped to every team in the league by their agents, with only Seattle and Chivas even interested.
:facepalm: Those examples are enough to make one shake one's head. However, none of those players had MLS experience when on offer, no?



We've had lots of chances to get guys and either passed on it or they wouldn't come to TO.
In the end, it comes down to identifying the players with the right skills who want to come to Toronto and leave it all an the pitch for this club. I'm not arguing that management should exclude MLS talent. I just don't advocate focusing on MLS talent. Didn't TFC try that already? Shouldn't we concentrate on getting the right players from wherever they may be? Maybe that's Le Toux, Cooper, Camillo, Jhon Kennedy Hurtado or Osvaldo Alonso.

[BayernTFC]

For all the MLS players you name that haven't worked out, I can name an equal amount that DID work out! You aren't always going to be successful signing players, but some work out and some don't. I can name just as many non-MLS signings that haven't worked out too! Welsh, Stefanovic, Robert, those two Eastern European full backs who were both terrible. But that doesn't prove that signing non-MLS players isn't effective either!
I have no doubt you can list examples of MLS acquisitions that worked. I think composing a list of successful and non successful transactions could be useful. Comparing current management's record to previous management's records would be useful too. You are also correct that foreign acquisitions can be just as risky. Signing players isn't an exact science. It might be useful to compare TFCs successes and failures with non-US talent as well. Do you believe TFC should be focusing on acquiring players with MLS experience? Who is available to TFC right now? What will it take to acquire them?

[Fort York Redcoat]

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but isn't it mostly the castoffs who are available? Of all the MLS players acquired by TFC last year in trades, who were starting or even contributing much to their former teams before arriving:

Nathan Sturgis
Alan Gordon
Tony Tchani
Danleigh Borman
Ryan Johnson
Andy Iro
Leandre Griffit
Dasan Robinson
Peri Marosevic
Eric Avila
Kyle Davies

Some of those listed were repackaged in trades for other who are listed. Now we found and still have useful pieces in Eric Avila and Ryan Johnson, but we subtracted DeRo and Maicon Santos (some might add Attakora, Nick Labrocca and Nathan Sturgis). I still ask the question, who is available to TFC from inside MLS now and what will it cost to acquire them?


I don't necesaarily disagree with what you are saying here either. This still comes down to identifying talent and personnel decisions. I'd like to see TFC's ratio of successful acquisitions to failed acquisitions. Has TFC historically received better talent than we have given away? What's the ratio like under current management?


:facepalm: Those examples are enough to make one shake one's head. However, none of those players had MLS experience when on offer, no?



In the end, it comes down to identifying the players with the right skills who want to come to Toronto and leave it all an the pitch for this club. I'm not arguing that management should exclude MLS talent. I just don't advocate focusing on MLS talent. Didn't TFC try that already? Shouldn't we concentrate on getting the right players from wherever they may be? Maybe that's Le Toux, Cooper, Camillo, Jhon Kennedy Hurtado or Osvaldo Alonso.

I think the culture beginning here at Toronto is one that is Canada first, especially if they are doing well abroad, then favouring or bias to foreign players before MLS players with Americans even lower on that list. That's not to say we won't break that mold. I think we've definitely hurt ourselves or hampered team growth with this preference but I don't have a problem if we keep it. Just keep it more elastic. Stop taking players at premium or over valuing them.

There are plenty of those aquisitions noted above that looked to just have a bad year at their last club and we took a chance. There's enough of those kind of players that've left TFC that went to a different place and it was the change of scenery that sparked them.

[BayernTFC]

I think the culture beginning here at Toronto is one that is Canada first, especially if they are doing well abroad, then favouring or bias to foreign players before MLS players with Americans even lower on that list. That's not to say we won't break that mold. I think we've definitely hurt ourselves or hampered team growth with this preference but I don't have a problem if we keep it.
There was a league mandated Canadian quota for TFC that was only recently changed. TFC is a Canadian club. I would hope that under the proper circumstances, TFC would be a majorty Canadian side. It's going to take some time. TFC has proven that they don't need a quota to incorporate Canadian content into their squad. Don't all US MLS clubs have a full compliment of foreign players? MLS restrictions require US teams to employ a certain number of US players.


Just keep it more elastic. Stop taking players at premium or over valuing them.Doesn't the quota for US teams inflate the value of US players? The competition from US teams for quality US players with MLS experience will drive up the cost for such talent too, no? It's possible that the draw of playing in one's home country might be difficult for TFC to overcome or require TFC to add incentives in some cases too. You're right though. In a capped league, being saddled with expensive contracts is deadly. Filling up roster spots with poorly skilled, unmarketable players is just as detrimental. MLS rules make it difficult to recover from mistakes.


There are plenty of those aquisitions noted above that looked to just have a bad year at their last club and we took a chance. There's enough of those kind of players that've left TFC that went to a different place and it was the change of scenery that sparked them.
Some would probably say the same about Johnson and Avila. As you've stated, it's about adding the right pieces at the right price. The last thing we need is for TFC management to start panicking and adding contracts for the sake of an artificial approach. TFC doesn't need to hamstring itself at a time when some restrictive contracts will be coming to an end. All other teams in the league know TFC is struggling too. That makes it harder to get a good deal.

[TFCBarrie]

No mention of Alan Gordon? Guy got injured then traded. He is a better striker than Koevermans in my opinion,


Is this a serious opinion? because it's the most ridiculous thing posted in this entire thread.

[Juanito]

Oh shit...it's a DeRo thread! g:D


My ears were burning... :lol:

HA HA HA HA! Quality stuff!

Point is I agree that we have traded away good players, who we didn't get the most out of, because quite frankly our coaches haven't been able to.

For my money, I would have never let go of Guevara to bring in Preki. We lost a creative player (inconsistent, but he has more good than bad), and we should never had brought De Guzman and his salary, I strongly believe we would still have DeRo.

What does it say about our fearless leaders when all these players leave Toronto and do better?

[Jack]

At the time, I liked the acquisition of JDG. Unfortunately, his performances did not live up to the billing. Had he been even 80% of the guy who was the Deportivo MVP, we'd have a top 3 midfielder in the league, but his fire seems to have gone out.

I freely admit that, given the choice, I'd love to have TFC be a team full of very good Canadian players, but that's not realistic at this point.

[Juanito]

I think the culture beginning here at Toronto is one that is Canada first, especially if they are doing well abroad, then favouring or bias to foreign players before MLS players with Americans even lower on that list. That's not to say we won't break that mold. I think we've definitely hurt ourselves or hampered team growth with this preference but I don't have a problem if we keep it. Just keep it more elastic. Stop taking players at premium or over valuing them.

There are plenty of those aquisitions noted above that looked to just have a bad year at their last club and we took a chance. There's enough of those kind of players that've left TFC that went to a different place and it was the change of scenery that sparked them.

I think TFC listened to too many "armchair gaffers" when adopting this Canada-first policy. I'm all for the academy developing good, young, Canadian talent but having a miserable team doesn't inspire much from the fans and any potential footballers.

[Juanito]

At the time, I liked the acquisition of JDG. Unfortunately, his performances did not live up to the billing. Had he been even 80% of the guy who was the Deportivo MVP, we'd have a top 3 midfielder in the league, but his fire seems to have gone out.

I freely admit that, given the choice, I'd love to have TFC be a team full of very good Canadian players, but that's not realistic at this point.

Yeah, I wouldn't keep my hopes up Jack. There are only so many decent Canadian footballers, and now there are three professional teams they can choose from, and even then, they don't have to play for them.

[DoubleUp]

Dunfield? Please, do me a favor and check his stats for this season, go over the distribution charts from th past three games. He is, bar none, the worst player on this team. Against RSL, he had 1 tackle completed and was dispossessed six times, completing 70% of his passes, of which more than two-thirds went backwards.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-04-28-rsl-v-tor/chalkboard

He was awful. Go back and check the chalkboards for the prior games. For the season he's completing less than 70% of passes (acceptable in MLS is right around 80%), he is tackled nearly four times as often as he tackles others and he routinely cannot get the ball forward.

The stats say he's awful, but don't just count the stats. Look at the positional distribution pattern for our l ast game and you'll see he hardly came anywhere near our defensive end, which is absolutely egregious for a two-way mid.

He's awful. That many stats do not lie.

This is Dunfields biggest problem, julian included.

disposed far! far! to easily and doesnt provide enough defensive cover in the middle, opposing players litterely walk around them.


our team is decent(good) passing team going forward, but from the backline to the midfield there is no defensive steel. Eckersley trys but his tackling is still wreckless and lacks maturity and vision and morgans positioning is terrible and teams tend to try to exploit that.

I still think Aceval would make a better defensive midfielder, and theres nothing wrong with getting Canadian players(issey):smilewinkgrin: aslong we dont over value/pay for their services.

At this point I think deguzman(salary),cordon,dunfield,harden,maund,lind say(even though he was amazing when played) should all be used to make space for better players.


- Doubleup

[BHTC Mike]

Doesn't the quota for US teams inflate the value of US players? The competition from US teams for quality US players with MLS experience will drive up the cost for such talent too, no?
No, MLS's single entity structure and salary budget prevents those players from using different domestic clubs to bargain their price up. For the most part you get a take it or leave it offer from the club that controls your rights that is in line with what the rest of the league pays for a player of your age and experience. You only have leverage if you're willing to take the risk of playing out your contract and go overseas. It can be reasonably argued that "non-star" and depth Americans in MLS have some of the best player to value ratios in global soccer. It's a big reason many people don't think raising the salary budget very quickly will have much of an impact on the standard of play: all you'll end up doing is paying those "non-star" Americans more money because with the quota they can't be replaced.

Now, repatriated Americans are a different story and can often be overpayed (just like De Guzman).

[BayernTFC]

No, MLS's single entity structure and salary budget prevents those players from using different domestic clubs to bargain their price up. For the most part you get a take it or leave it offer from the club that controls your rights that is in line with what the rest of the league pays for a player of your age and experience. You only have leverage if you're willing to take the risk of playing out your contract and go overseas. It can be reasonably argued that "non-star" and depth Americans in MLS have some of the best player to value ratios in global soccer. It's a big reason many people don't think raising the salary budget very quickly will have much of an impact on the standard of play: all you'll end up doing is paying those "non-star" Americans more money because with the quota they can't be replaced.

Now, repatriated Americans are a different story and can often be overpayed (just like De Guzman).
So how do you explain Nick Garcia and Chad Barrett making $200,000, Marvell Wynne making $160,000 and Sam Cronin making $84,000 for TFC in 2009 when Attakora made $34,000, Gabe Gala $20,000 and Amadou Sanyang $40,000? The young Canadian players are here because they are cheap. When Jacob Peterson was here, he made $143,000! More than Maicon Santos. The argument for cheap US players could be made in the case of Gargan and Harden in 2010 at $40,000 a piece. But Gargan now makes $70,000 and Harden makes $74,000. How do you explain TFC paying Jeremy Hall $130,000?

[DoubleUp]

So how do you explain Nick Garcia and Chad Barrett making $200,000, Marvell Wynne making $160,000 and Sam Cronin making $84,000 for TFC in 2009 when Attakora made $34,000, Gabe Gala $20,000 and Amadou Sanyang $40,000? The young Canadian players are here because they are cheap. When Jacob Peterson was here, he made $143,000! More than Maicon Santos. The argument for cheap US players could be made in the case of Gargan and Harden in 2010 at $40,000 a piece. But Gargan now makes $70,000 and Harden makes $74,000. How do you explain TFC paying Jeremy Hall $130,000?



should be no more than $100,000....thats pissing money away.

[BayernTFC]

should be no more than $100,000....thats pissing money away.
Shouldn't be anywhere near $100,000 imho. Who is Jeremy Hall? What has he done? We're paying $44,000 for Ashtone Morgan this season. That's what Canadian players can offer TFC without the restrictions of a league mandated quota. TFC is using a good portion of their cap on another expensive US spare part and he hasn't even played one game for us yet. Whose decision was that? Why Jeremy Hall? I found jloome's description of him:

Did you see him in NY. I wouldn't credit him with either. Definitely backup only material. Good jets, that's about it.
http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?30284-TFC-Current-Roster-Cap-Space-Estimate/page7

You can't make this sh*t up.

[Yohan]

should be no more than $100,000....thats pissing money away.i believe wynne and hall were on GA contracts for a bit.

[BayernTFC]

i believe wynne and hall were on GA contracts for a bit.
Sounds pretty inflationary.

[Yohan]

Sounds pretty inflationary.
Its one of few mechanisms available for mls to stop highly rated prospects from skipping to europe. You end up paying for their perceived value

[TFC/Everton]

Never ever thought I would say this, but Dero is missed.

[BayernTFC]

Its one of few mechanisms available for mls to stop highly rated prospects from skipping to europe. You end up paying for their perceived value
Sorry, but I don't buy that Marvell Wynne, Jeremy Hall or Jacob Peterson were going to skip MLS for Europe. Adidas picks up the tab until the contract ends. Then teams like TFC overpay for players who have already proven they are not worth that type of money.

[DoubleUp]

)
Shouldn't be anywhere near $100,000 imho. Who is Jeremy Hall? What has he done? We're paying $44,000 for Ashtone Morgan this season. That's what Canadian players can offer TFC without the restrictions of a league mandated quota. TFC is using a good portion of their cap on another expensive US spare part and he hasn't even played one game for us yet. Whose decision was that? Why Jeremy Hall? I found jloome's description of him:

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?30284-TFC-Current-Roster-Cap-Space-Estimate/page7

You can't make this sh*t up.





I agree!

As far as jloome's
statement I am not a Hall advocate I just think it be wise to keep a player who on record is known to play more than 1 position, but $130,000 we can certainly find a better fit(we can get a brazilian to play every position for that money):D.

[DoubleUp]

Sorry, but I don't buy that Marvell Wynne, Jeremy Hall or Jacob Peterson were going to skip MLS for Europe. Adidas picks up the tab until the contract ends. Then teams like TFC overpay for players who have already proven they are not worth that type of money.

very true!

[Yohan]

Sorry, but I don't buy that Marvell Wynne, Jeremy Hall or Jacob Peterson were going to skip MLS for Europe. Adidas picks up the tab until the contract ends. Then teams like TFC overpay for players who have already proven they are not worth that type of money.

Nope.

MLS contacts GA candidates and see if they are willing to sign to the league. MLS and the player's agent hammer out a contract. Adidas does pick up the contract. However, teams are charged the full amount of the player's contract once he graduates from GA status (determined by the league). So if a player signs to a 3 year GA deal, but graduates GA after 2nd year, his 3rd year salary is charged to the team per his contract.

[BayernTFC]

Adidas does pick up the contract. However, teams are charged the full amount of the player's contract once he graduates from GA status (determined by the league). So if a player signs to a 3 year GA deal, but graduates GA after 2nd year, his 3rd year salary is charged to the team per his contract.
Wow! That's even worse. Makes it hard to budget for the future when you don't know if a GA deal will end early or not. Wynne, Peterson and Hall weren't with TFC while they were under GA contracts, no? Maybe TFC management can explain why they felt Wynne, Peterson and Hall were worth GA or higher salaries after their GA contracts expired?

[69Chevy396]

Never ever thought I would say this, but Dero is missed.

Inexplicably, whenever his name is mentioned in these threads the mlse apologists rise to the occasion and do whatever they can to deride or mock the argument, namely that he was, and is the best Canadian soccer player in the past fifty years, he is a Toronto native, loved the idea of playing here, scored more goals last year and made more assists than anybody TFC has ever produced, yet his one cheque signing incident, a clear attack on mlse, is regarded as the worst infraction since Pete Rose ruined baseball....say it: We miss DERO.

[ArmenJBX]

Here's all anyone has to say about De Rosario right now.

Would you rather give De Rosario $2 million a year or Julian de Guzman $2 million a year?

If you can answer that question honestly, you see how we messed this one up.

[Ajax TFC]

Sorry, but I don't buy that Marvell Wynne, Jeremy Hall or Jacob Peterson were going to skip MLS for Europe. Adidas picks up the tab until the contract ends. Then teams like TFC overpay for players who have already proven they are not worth that type of money.
This. And you can add Peri Marosevic as one who, after graduating GA, thought that he still deserved a $100 000+ salary, and so he decided that he could get more money somewhere else. Of course he completely forgot that half a season prior he wasn't even playing for anyone, since his previous team had decided that he wasn't worth the $0 cap hit.

[denime]

Its one of few mechanisms available for mls to stop highly rated prospects from skipping to europe. You end up paying for their perceived value

Not anymore,MLS are getting very cheap,GA contracts are smaller and smaller every year,I know for fact that one Canadian player decide to stay at college because GA contract he was offered was less than his annual full scholarship.There are 7 MLS team interested for him,including our own TFC.Since he did not like MLS GA offer and TFC was not able to claim him as home grown player he is still at college,and if he gets offer from any 2nd European division he will be gone.

We should hire SKILLED, INTELLIGENT Players from MLS or not doesn't really matter.Question is does MLS has that type of player and would skilled intelligent player come to TFC in the first place?

[Nuvinho]

^ Kyle Bekker?

[Nuvinho]

Here's all anyone has to say about De Rosario right now.

Would you rather give De Rosario $2 million a year or Julian de Guzman $2 million a year?

If you can answer that question honestly, you see how we messed this one up.

The real question is, DOES MLS want to give DeRo a $2 million a year contract? and their answer is No! End of story. DeRo would of been a DP now if the league wanted him to be a DP.

[ag futbol]

In certain cases GA contracts are helping retain players who would otherwise go to europe. But in other cases, it's just throwing good money @ bad. Realistically the need to stop bumping up the cap hit mid-contract which is orphaning some of these players and probably hurting MLS's reputation when it comes to signing young talent.

MLS can converge with world contract standards without spending additional money. This should be the end-game because contract terms are part of any negotiating process.

Having the flexibility to take out the trash mid-contract sounds like a good thing, until you realize that when those are your terms... you are more likely to sign trash while better players will look elsewhere.

[denime]

^ Kyle Bekker?
Yeap

[Nuvinho]

Yeap

7 teams want him.......damn! We aren't gonna get him, unless we take him first overall :)

But this goes back to everything that has been discussed in this thread:

- MLS decides who deserves DP contracts and who doesnt
- MLS doesn't guarantee the full contract of GA contracts - You are telling a team draft this guy, but after a year we gonna stick you with a large contract on your salary cap
- MLS tells who you can and cannot sign

flaws of a single entity system.

[ag futbol]

^ And if you think that is fucked ... think about this: most of the players in this league are still identified through central scouting and the head-office decides which teams players get offered to first. Sanyang and Gomez for example were offered to other teams before TFC.

[Yohan]

Wow! That's even worse. Makes it hard to budget for the future when you don't know if a GA deal will end early or not. Wynne, Peterson and Hall weren't with TFC while they were under GA contracts, no? Maybe TFC management can explain why they felt Wynne, Peterson and Hall were worth GA or higher salaries after their GA contracts expired?

Teams generally know that once you play a GA a lot in a season, he will likely lose GA status (though that's not concrete, considering Frei was GA for like 3 yrs despite playing a shit ton, while some guys play like half a season and lose their GA status the next season)

I think Wynne was GA when he arrived in Toronto, and I think he wasn't a GA for his final year in Toronto before he went to Colorado and got a massive bump in salary. Peterson was on his current wage before arriving in Toronto. I think he signed his current deal while in Colorado (where he was thought pretty highly of). Hall is on his GA contract, but graduated from GA status. I think he's on his final year of contract right now.