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Doucet3
04-30-2012, 07:20 AM
Was curious to know if other kinda felt this way, to me it feels like the MLS is very attack oriented and yes we're set up for that but MLS teams are set up to attack and stop attacks where in our 4-3-3 we look like we don't have enough defensive support at times (or defense at all other times).

I think we'd be better set with a 4-4-2 like Manchester United, and no im not bias cause I'm a united fan I've seen it in action and it works, but a similar setup to our current one but the wings at a more central postition, so they can come back and cover the wings, can even have Avila/Silva setup as a 10 man (much like a CAM) and Koevermans at ST.

Just a thought, couldn't hurt right not like we're 7-0.

Oldtimer
04-30-2012, 08:02 AM
KC uses 4-3-3 and they are top of the league. The key point is that they know how to adapt it to MLS (for example, they play more a physical style than a tiki-taka style).

Doucet3
04-30-2012, 08:48 AM
True I guess 4-3-3 works with a physical touch and a defense line, this team just need a couple new players I think 2 CBs another striker 2 more central mids and I think we'd be pretty good

ryan
04-30-2012, 08:50 AM
Did you just change your mind on your own thread statement just 2 posts in? :)

Doucet3
04-30-2012, 08:54 AM
No it's not working we're still 0-7 I see the point old timer is making but were not making it work, I should have worded it as Winter 4-3-3 system isn't working lol, I do think it has potential but as of right now it's really not working KC is a whole nother story

__wowza
04-30-2012, 08:55 AM
KC uses 4-3-3 and they are top of the league. The key point is that they know how to adapt it to MLS (for example, they play more a physical style than a tiki-taka style).

i've said it before, and i'll say it again, their 4-3-3 involves 3 strikers instead of 2 wingers. they have forwards who cut inside and take shots, we have wingers who stay wide and deliver crosses. the only one of our guys who does the SKC is plata, and the only reason he does that is because hes fast enough to get the ball to the attacking third with no support.

if we had guys who could service koevs, a natural poacher, we'd either be scoring goals (the last few games of last season) or forcing their defenders to double up on him giving room for our other forwards to take shots (the galaxy CCL series).

Doucet3
04-30-2012, 09:00 AM
i've said it before, and i'll say it again, their 4-3-3 involves 3 strikers instead of 2 wingers. they have forwards who cut inside and take shots, we have wingers who stay wide and deliver crosses. the only one of our guys who does the SKC is plata, and the only reason he does that is because hes fast enough to get the ball to the attacking third with no support.

if we had guys who could service koevs, a natural poacher, we'd either be scoring goals (the last few games of last season) or forcing their defenders to double up on him giving room for our other forwards to take shots (the galaxy CCL series).


This right here is why THERE 4-3-3 works and not ours

Jack
04-30-2012, 09:18 AM
Formation isn't the problem. Execution is.

trane
04-30-2012, 09:22 AM
^ Exactly.

C.Ronaldo
04-30-2012, 09:34 AM
I was actually wondering what the point of 4-3-3 is if all your doing is running out wide to cross it to a 5ft taller receiver every time

[NBF]
04-30-2012, 09:55 AM
Was curious to know if other kinda felt this way, to me it feels like the MLS is very attack oriented and yes we're set up for that but MLS teams are set up to attack and stop attacks where in our 4-3-3 we look like we don't have enough defensive support at times (or defense at all other times).

I think we'd be better set with a 4-4-2 like Manchester United, and no im not bias cause I'm a united fan I've seen it in action and it works, but a similar setup to our current one but the wings at a more central postition, so they can come back and cover the wings, can even have Avila/Silva setup as a 10 man (much like a CAM) and Koevermans at ST.

Just a thought, couldn't hurt right not like we're 7-0.

Ive seen it, it works.....lol


Defense: I think its been said already this team is lacking a quality centre back pairing. Say what you want about Miguel Aceval, but he's a good enough defender that he could be compared to a Chad Marshall on any other team that is better organized.

Midfield: Dunfield needs to sit or retire. DeGuzman, needs to start, you cant turn this around if the team continues to play favorites and bench DeGuzman in favour of Dunfield. That just reflects badly on your management skills. Avila and Silva need to get on the field at the same time, you just cant sit them and expect them to get better.

Forward: Koevermans needs to get healthy. A fat DP is embarrassing.

*Avila and Silva need to get on the 1st team:

--------------------------Kocic-----------------------
Eckersley------(#1-NEED)---------Aceval-------Morgan
-------------Cann/Harden-----------------------------
-------------------------Frings-----------------------
---------------DeGuzman---------*Avila--------------
---------------------------------Dunfield-------------
*Silva-----------------------------------------Johnson
Lambe/Plata------------------------------------------
----------------------Koevermans---------------------

Jack
04-30-2012, 10:01 AM
;1481584']Ive seen it, it works.....lol


Defense: I think its been said already this team is lacking a quality centre back pairing. Say what you want about Miguel Aceval, but he's a good enough defender that he could be compared to a Chad Marshall on any other team that is better organized.

Midfield: Dunfield needs to sit or retire. DeGuzman, needs to start, you cant turn this around if the team continues to play favorites and bench DeGuzman in favour of Dunfield. That just reflects badly on your management skills. Avila and Silva need to get on the field at the same time, you just cant sit them and expect them to get better.

Forward: Koevermans needs to get healthy. A fat DP is embarrassing.

*Avila and Silva need to get on the 1st team:

--------------------------Kocic-----------------------
Eckersley------(#1-NEED)---------Aceval-------Morgan
-------------Cann/Harden-----------------------------
-------------------------Frings-----------------------
---------------DeGuzman---------*Avila--------------
---------------------------------Dunfield-------------
*Silva-----------------------------------------Johnson
Lambe/Plata------------------------------------------
----------------------Koevermans---------------------
I mostly agree with this, except I'd probably put Avila up higher and pull Silva back, but I think they both could work in either slot. I also agree we need to fill the gaping hole in the centre of our backline.

Nuvinho
04-30-2012, 10:15 AM
Are we 1 top CB away from being competitive? Are we 1 year away from getting out of the JDG contract and having both Silva/Avila play infront of Frings?

I think we are.

Ajax TFC
04-30-2012, 04:15 PM
The problem isn't the system, the problem is game day player selection. To play possession football, "hard work" just isnt enough. you need players who can pass, receive, be aware of their surroundings, and be aggressive when the other team has the ball. Fielding players like Dunfield, who are nothing more than "Hard workers" (if he even is that) doesn't get you wins. We have players who can do that, now it's a matter of Winter actually selecting them

ArmenJBX
04-30-2012, 04:17 PM
It will work eventually - but only when it can be kept alive will we flourish. We rely on Frings and Koevermans and use academy players as backups. This is a sign of both a lack of depth and an inability to properly round out the roster.

Sporting KC's 4-3-3 is working because each player knows their job and are physically strong enough to do them. Plata makes the left wing useless, the midfield trio is nowhere near good enough, and our centerbacks are slow.

ArmenJBX
04-30-2012, 04:17 PM
The problem isn't the system, the problem is game day player selection. To play possession football, "hard work" just isnt enough. you need players who can pass, receive, be aware of their surroundings, and be aggressive when the other team has the ball. Fielding players like Dunfield, who are nothing more than "Hard workers" (if he even is that) doesn't get you wins. We have players who can do that, now it's a matter of Winter actually selecting them

Also, this, x1000

CoachGT
04-30-2012, 07:27 PM
Formation isn't the problem. Execution is.

This is it.

Bear in mind, this isn't "Winter's" system. It is a system of play determined by Klinsmann based upon his recommendations after reviewing Toronto's objectives and expectations for fans (and players) in making his report to MLSE management. Winter was a man determined to be suited to working with the system, supported by Mariner, a man who understood MLS. 4-3-3 and variations have been around for a long time. And many other formations are offshoots of it - for example, 4-5-1 just means the two wingers fall back some.

Execution is a problem, but I also think mental toughness/focus is an equal problem right now. Everyone (including the players) fear for the worst. Players cannot fear making mistakes or we get what we've seen recently.

jloome
04-30-2012, 08:04 PM
i've said it before, and i'll say it again, their 4-3-3 involves 3 strikers instead of 2 wingers. they have forwards who cut inside and take shots, we have wingers who stay wide and deliver crosses. the only one of our guys who does the SKC is plata, and the only reason he does that is because hes fast enough to get the ball to the attacking third with no support.

if we had guys who could service koevs, a natural poacher, we'd either be scoring goals (the last few games of last season) or forcing their defenders to double up on him giving room for our other forwards to take shots (the galaxy CCL series).

Didn't this week. We were outcrossed dramatically.

Oranje
04-30-2012, 08:07 PM
Are we 1 top CB away from being competitive? Are we 1 year away from getting out of the JDG contract and having both Silva/Avila play infront of Frings?

I think we are.

I feel for Winter's 4-3-3 to work we are in need of 2 CB’s. We need a big, athletic man-marker who is a stud in the air (a younger Cann/experienced Henry) so we don’t keep getting burnt on set pieces and a speedy, technically sound CB who is comfortable with the ball at his feet so we can play out of the back without Frings doesn’t have to come so far back to get the ball. Right now the average age of CBs who have started is ~30 and there is a lot of KMs on those legs. All the speed on our back line is on the flanks, which leaves the massive gaps to be exploited by a speedy CF (a la Chicago).

denime
04-30-2012, 08:32 PM
The problem isn't the system, the problem is game day player selection. To play possession football, "hard work" just isnt enough. you need players who can pass, receive, be aware of their surroundings, and be aggressive when the other team has the ball. Fielding players like Dunfield, who are nothing more than "Hard workers" (if he even is that) doesn't get you wins. We have players who can do that, now it's a matter of Winter actually selecting them

Agree 100%

T-boy
05-01-2012, 04:01 AM
Formation isn't the problem. Execution is.

The formation is fine. But if you listened to De Klerk and Rongen's description of the "system" during half time of the RSL game, you can see how complicated this version of 4-3-3 is. I have 2 masters degree's, and I honestly couldn't understand the complexity of the system! So, its no wonder that the TFC players are struggling to work out the system.

Football doesn't NEED to be so complicated. Winter needs to get the team doing the basics well, before getting them to play this rediculously complicated numbering and passing/movement system. Listening to De Klerk describe the system was mind numbing! I bet some of the TFC players don't have a clue what its all about, so its no wonder they can't play it!

T-boy
05-01-2012, 04:03 AM
The problem isn't the system, the problem is game day player selection. To play possession football, "hard work" just isnt enough. you need players who can pass, receive, be aware of their surroundings, and be aggressive when the other team has the ball. Fielding players like Dunfield, who are nothing more than "Hard workers" (if he even is that) doesn't get you wins. We have players who can do that, now it's a matter of Winter actually selecting them

I honestly can't name an MLS player who can play like that!

We should sign Yaya Toure or Michael Essien, cos they fit that description perfectly!

Winter's problem is that he's trying to get MacDonalds "chefs" to try and make gourmet French food. It just doesn't work!

ag futbol
05-01-2012, 08:19 AM
Meh, personally I don't buy the "aron winter has a sophisticated plan, it just doesn't work here" line.

To me he just wants to auto-pilot a system with a bunch of great players, which I really haven't been convinced to date that he can either find these players or develop them.

I highly doubt that if he went back to Europe he's be besieged with job offers and the like. Tactical adjustments are important, no matter who you are and where u coach

Ultra & Proud
05-01-2012, 08:30 AM
Say what you want about Miguel Aceval, but he's a good enough defender that he could be compared to a Chad Marshall on any other team that is better organized.

Complete crazy talk. :willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

Juanito
05-01-2012, 08:36 AM
I've said it before:

4-3-3 only works when you have three strong midfielders controlling the ball.

It works for RSL because Beckerman is really good at what he does.

Other than our ageing "wünderkind" Torsten, we have no one else capable of covering that sort of ground and be effective. De Guzmán is balls, DUNCEfield is balls, every other midfielder we have is ....... balls.

jabbronies
05-01-2012, 08:40 AM
The formation is fine. But if you listened to De Klerk and Rongen's description of the "system" during half time of the RSL game, you can see how complicated this version of 4-3-3 is. I have 2 masters degree's, and I honestly couldn't understand the complexity of the system! So, its no wonder that the TFC players are struggling to work out the system.

Football doesn't NEED to be so complicated. Winter needs to get the team doing the basics well, before getting them to play this rediculously complicated numbering and passing/movement system. Listening to De Klerk describe the system was mind numbing! I bet some of the TFC players don't have a clue what its all about, so its no wonder they can't play it!

I was watching the RSL feed, so I missed this. Anyone have a link to it??

jabbronies
05-01-2012, 08:42 AM
I've said it before:

4-3-3 only works when you have three strong midfielders controlling the ball.

It works for RSL because Beckerman is really good at what he does.

Other than our ageing "wünderkind" Torsten, we have no one else capable of covering that sort of ground and be effective. De Guzmán is balls, DUNCEfield is balls, every other midfielder we have is ....... balls.

AGREED!!!!!

Our Midfield isn't that great!
Sure Avila and Silva have shown glimpses this season, but we don't have a core to work from aside from Torsten.
This is why I have become so Anti-Deguzman this year. He has faltered big time and it's showing.

jabbronies
05-01-2012, 08:44 AM
Say what you want about Miguel Aceval, but he's a good enough defender that he could be compared to a Chad Marshall on any other team that is better organized.

Complete crazy talk. :willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

as a center back??

mastermixer
05-01-2012, 08:49 AM
Tough to play this system in a league like MLS where hustle is more valuable then talent. 4-3-3 is executed more successfully when the opposing team plays tactical positioning. We saw our 4-3-3 be successful against CCL teams from Mexico and teams like the LA Galaxy who play a more positional game. With most MLS teams the objective on defence seems to be CHASE AND GET THE BALL BACK... which does not allow your 4-3-3 system to flourish.

ryan
05-01-2012, 09:03 AM
Tough to play this system in a league like MLS where hustle is more valuable then talent. 4-3-3 is executed more successfully when the opposing team plays tactical positioning. We saw our 4-3-3 be successful against CCL teams from Mexico and teams like the LA Galaxy who play a more positional game. With most MLS teams the objective on defence seems to be CHASE AND GET THE BALL BACK... which does not allow your 4-3-3 system to flourish.

I disagree. I believe that should we be on top of things we'd have these over pursuing aggressive defenders chasing the ball and getting out of position. At times, we've seen this during the season so far.

ginkster88
05-01-2012, 09:05 AM
Tough to play this system in a league like MLS where hustle is more valuable then talent. 4-3-3 is executed more successfully when the opposing team plays tactical positioning. We saw our 4-3-3 be successful against CCL teams from Mexico and teams like the LA Galaxy who play a more positional game. With most MLS teams the objective on defence seems to be CHASE AND GET THE BALL BACK... which does not allow your 4-3-3 system to flourish.

If this were true, Barca would be 0-7 as well.

ExiledRed
05-01-2012, 09:40 AM
If this were true, Barca would be 0-7 as well.

Why? is La Liga just like MLS or something?

dont bother answering that.

ginkster88
05-01-2012, 10:43 AM
Why? is La Liga just like MLS or something?

dont bother answering that.

You know my comment was facetious.

Dismissing a tactic as ineffective because of the style of play of many MLS teams is flawed; were that true, every team in La Liga would play like MLS sides to shut down 4-3-3 teams like Barca.

ExiledRed
05-01-2012, 10:50 AM
You know my comment was facetious.

Dismissing a tactic as ineffective because of the style of play of many MLS teams is flawed; were that true, every team in La Liga would play like MLS sides to shut down 4-3-3 teams like Barca.

And this is almost a good point. Barcelona Im sure would have the abilty to adapt to such tactics and severely punish them, because the players can adapt to multiple systems.

Lets take a different look. Liverpool under Rafa for instance, playing their 4-3-1-2 /4-3-3/4-3-2-1 formation destroyed Real Madrid, Manchester United and Chelsea all in the same year. Teams like Birmingham and Wigan however were frustrating the fuck out of us.

ginkster88
05-01-2012, 10:56 AM
And this is almost a good point. Barcelona Im sure would have the abilty to adapt to such tactics and severely punish them, because the players can adapt to multiple systems.

Lets take a different look. Liverpool under Rafa for instance, playing their 4-3-1-2 /4-3-3/4-3-2-1 formation destroyed Real Madrid, Manchester United and Chelsea all in the same year. Teams like Birmingham and Wigan however were frustrating the fuck out of us.

Which comes back to the gist of what I was saying: it's not the system, it's the players. The system works very well in Salt Lake City.

mastermixer
05-01-2012, 11:00 AM
^Good example. And this is why playing teams who "hold their positions" allows 4-3-3 to develop offence. But on the other end, teams that hold positions wait for mistakes and take advantage at that point. Look at the recent Chelsea games against Barca, that was tactical positioning at it's best and it paid off.

Beach_Red
05-01-2012, 11:04 AM
Which comes back to the gist of what I was saying: it's not the system, it's the players. The system works very well in Salt Lake City.


So, we're 0-7 with these players and there aren't likely to be any significant roster changes the rest of the year. So what are we going to do?

mastermixer
05-01-2012, 11:07 AM
Which comes back to the gist of what I was saying: it's not the system, it's the players. The system works very well in Salt Lake City.
Or it could be Winter not adapting his system to different teams in the league. Look at the Chicago game, where he decided to play 3 Defenders with a 35 year old Frings and a long injured Cann in the back against 2 Ghanan sprinters in Chicago's offence. From the first kick in that game I know we would be asking for trouble. The fact that they were not very good made it a closer game that it should have been.

ginkster88
05-01-2012, 11:18 AM
Or it could be Winter not adapting his system to different teams in the league. Look at the Chicago game, where he decided to play 3 Defenders with a 35 year old Frings and a long injured Cann in the back against 2 Ghanan sprinters in Chicago's offence. From the first kick in that game I know we would be asking for trouble. The fact that they were not very good made it a closer game that it should have been.

Three defenders is not a 4-3-3, so he must have adapted the system for Chicago.

Beach_Red,

Fire the coach but don't change the system. I'm not saying keeping Winter is a good idea, just that the philosophy can work (and is, in other places) in this league and should work in Toronto. We have almost all the personnel we need, but player selection has been strange. Our problem is that for much of the season (with Frings out, and even with him back until RSL), buildup has been moving through Dunfield, Stinson and an uninterested JDG, the three weakest links on the field.

Last season it was moving through Frings and a motivated JDG.

Playing Frings at CB and relying on scrubs in the midfield means the team can never get moving forward; attack will often stall at midfield, unless the ball can be forced wide. Then you see players trying to do too much (Eckersley, Frings) to compensate and getting caught.

PopePouri
05-01-2012, 11:57 AM
Or it could be Winter not adapting his system to different teams in the league. Look at the Chicago game, where he decided to play 3 Defenders with a 35 year old Frings and a long injured Cann in the back against 2 Ghanan sprinters in Chicago's offence. From the first kick in that game I know we would be asking for trouble. The fact that they were not very good made it a closer game that it should have been.

We did the same thing against Colorado last year with Nyassi and Cummings.

Greatest Ripoff
05-01-2012, 12:03 PM
And this is almost a good point. Barcelona Im sure would have the abilty to adapt to such tactics and severely punish them, because the players can adapt to multiple systems.

Like they adapted and punished Chelsea? The big criticism coming out of the quarter final was that Barcelona didn't have a plan b and couldn't adapt. But this really has little to do with Toronto's situation as they don't have a plan a let alone a plan b that is working.

ExiledRed
05-01-2012, 12:09 PM
Like they adapted and punished Chelsea? The big criticism coming out of the quarter final was that Barcelona didn't have a plan b and couldn't adapt. But this really has little to do with Toronto's situation as they don't have a plan a let alone a plan b that is working.

I dont follow blue teams, but dont Chelsea use a 4-3-3 as well?

Greatest Ripoff
05-01-2012, 12:17 PM
I dont follow blue teams, but dont Chelsea use a 4-3-3 as well?

For the Champions League semi final Chelsea played 1 up top and 10 men behind the ball. They played very narrow and crowded the box.

ExiledRed
05-01-2012, 12:24 PM
For the Champions League semi final Chelsea played 1 up top and 10 men behind the ball. They played very narrow and crowded the box.

Which is pretty much how every grinder team frustrated Liverpool.

The reason why La Liga doesnt revert to this grinding style of play, is that it does not reap points, it merely stops superior teams from running roughshod over you, ekes out draws and sometimes lets you get away with 1-0.

trane
05-01-2012, 01:08 PM
For the Champions League semi final Chelsea played 1 up top and 10 men behind the ball. They played very narrow and crowded the box.

Yes but it was a 4-3-3, with the wings playing way back, and the CF on top by himself. this is the Mou type system it is a 4-3-3 but a defensive one. Barca, have a hard time braking it down in part because their lack of big players to fight for space.

ExiledRed
05-01-2012, 01:13 PM
Yes but it was a 4-3-3, with the wings playing way back, and the CF on top by himself. this is the Mou type system it is a 4-3-3 but a defensive one. Barca, have a hard time braking it down in part because their lack of big players to fight for space.

I didnt watch that game, so im only really commenting on the real 'grinder' teams.

It does go to show that 4-3-3 tiki-taka is not the be all and end all of the game, and evolution is inevitable.

Canary10
05-01-2012, 01:25 PM
Or it could be Winter not adapting his system to different teams in the league. Look at the Chicago game, where he decided to play 3 Defenders with a 35 year old Frings and a long injured Cann in the back against 2 Ghanan sprinters in Chicago's offence. From the first kick in that game I know we would be asking for trouble. The fact that they were not very good made it a closer game that it should have been.

Can I just say there is a logic behind three defenders, and that Winter is absolutely setting up his tactics against a specific team? Chicago plays a 4-4-2. The idea behind three defenders is that you don't need 4 people to defend against 2 strikers. You are wasting a player. So instead you play 3 defenders more centrally, so you outnumber strikers 3-2 at the back (3 should be enough coverage for 2). You can then send the extra guy forward.

That's what he was trying to do. I agree the personnel choices may not have been the best, but that's a seperate question from the tactical adjustments he was making.

Dreadlocks
05-01-2012, 01:38 PM
The teams problem is defense and from what I understand, in a 4-3-3 system the defensive strategy is ball possession. When TFC looses the ball, not enough effort is put in to get it back, which obviously kills the strategy. When they do have the ball, the player movement or positional awareness has not been good enough to allow the player with the ball options. Plus not one player on the team consistently makes the correct decision on what to do with the ball when they have it - Frings included.

Barca is a prime example of my first point. Notice when they loose the ball it's all hands on deck to get it back. They pressure the ball HARD until they win it back.

Ajax TFC
05-01-2012, 01:38 PM
I honestly can't name an MLS player who can play like that!

We should sign Yaya Toure or Michael Essien, cos they fit that description perfectly!

Winter's problem is that he's trying to get MacDonalds "chefs" to try and make gourmet French food. It just doesn't work!
You can't think of any MLS players that can pass an recieve (the most basic part of the game), you don't have to know where all of the other 21 players are at all times to be aware, you just have to be able to see where theres people making runs forward, or where there's people open near you. That's actually not that hard and I can name several players on TFC alone who can do that. And isn't being aggressive what MLS players speciallize at? They don't have to be Barcelona amazing at those things, because they aren't playing anyone nearly as good as anyone that Barcelona plays. Avila has those qualities. Dunfield doesn't have any of them

T-boy
05-01-2012, 02:52 PM
You can't think of any MLS players that can pass an recieve (the most basic part of the game), you don't have to know where all of the other 21 players are at all times to be aware, you just have to be able to see where theres people making runs forward, or where there's people open near you. That's actually not that hard and I can name several players on TFC alone who can do that. And isn't being aggressive what MLS players speciallize at? They don't have to be Barcelona amazing at those things, because they aren't playing anyone nearly as good as anyone that Barcelona plays. Avila has those qualities. Dunfield doesn't have any of them

As you said yourself, Winter's system required players that "can pass, receive, be aware of their surroundings, and be aggressive when the other team has the ball"

You are totally correct - Winter's system needs players, and especially midfielders, who are good at tackling, passing, positional awareness, aggreessive, workrate, and leadership ability. It's not as simple as "players that can pass and receive" as you have already recognised yourself.

Winter's system needs midfielders who are good at EVERYTHING - defensively and offensively. It requires DM's who can make a pass, and required AM's to defend and be aggressive. I'm saying that THOSE types of players (players who are total all rounders in midfield) are few and far between in the MLS. I think I can only name 3 in fact - Shalrie Joseph, Beckermann, And Alonso.

Even our own Frings isn't THAT much of an all rounder, as he isn't 'quite' good offensively.

So, I'm saying that the types of players that Winter needs for his system to work, just don't really exist in the MLS, or if they do, theya re solidly with a team and we won't be able to sign them (like Alonso and Beckermann).

69Chevy396
05-01-2012, 03:15 PM
The formation is fine. But if you listened to De Klerk and Rongen's description of the "system" during half time of the RSL game, you can see how complicated this version of 4-3-3 is. I have 2 masters degree's, and I honestly couldn't understand the complexity of the system! So, its no wonder that the TFC players are struggling to work out the system.

Football doesn't NEED to be so complicated. Winter needs to get the team doing the basics well, before getting them to play this rediculously complicated numbering and passing/movement system. Listening to De Klerk describe the system was mind numbing! I bet some of the TFC players don't have a clue what its all about, so its no wonder they can't play it!

We simply don't have the talent on this team to play with three defenders. Every team in MLS has exposed this weakness this season. To keep the games close TFC needs to play a 5-4-1 formation. Didn't the Greek NT win the Euro playing this formation? Boring, ugly soccer, but it works.

trane
05-01-2012, 03:19 PM
I didnt watch that game, so im only really commenting on the real 'grinder' teams.

It does go to show that 4-3-3 tiki-taka is not the be all and end all of the game, and evolution is inevitable.

Off course. But the whole 4-3-3 seems rather simplistic as there are so many variations of the 4-3-3, that there is no one system.

T-boy
05-01-2012, 04:32 PM
We simply don't have the talent on this team to play with three defenders. Every team in MLS has exposed this weakness this season. To keep the games close TFC needs to play a 5-4-1 formation. Didn't the Greek NT win the Euro playing this formation? Boring, ugly soccer, but it works.

I hate to say it, and I kind of hate to agree, but TFC really need to get playing "back to basic" ugly football right now to turn the tide.

I LOVE Aron Winter's "long range vision" of playing total football with all players passing and moving. But right no its not working. Sometimes in football you have to close the opponent down and grind out a few results. Plating 5-4-1 for a month, stop conceding horrible goals, and we might turn things around. We coult get a couple of boring 0-0 draw's, but at least that's a couple of points on the table. Right now, we haven't got ANY points, so I would take a couple of boring goalless draws right now!

Technorgasm
05-04-2012, 08:15 AM
wow.
some great posts in here.
intelligent, well thought and pragmatic.

Shocking to see how poorly we are doing, in the light of how much many of us care about this club.

a good read.

maxpower
05-05-2012, 12:03 PM
Can I just say there is a logic behind three defenders, and that Winter is absolutely setting up his tactics against a specific team? Chicago plays a 4-4-2. The idea behind three defenders is that you don't need 4 people to defend against 2 strikers. You are wasting a player. So instead you play 3 defenders more centrally, so you outnumber strikers 3-2 at the back (3 should be enough coverage for 2). You can then send the extra guy forward.

That's what he was trying to do. I agree the personnel choices may not have been the best, but that's a seperate question from the tactical adjustments he was making.

I will let you have a short read on why it's not quite that simple http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/24/three-man-defence-in-football-soccer/

TFCRegina
05-05-2012, 12:51 PM
I think Winter's systemic alienation of players, downtrading of talent and mis-playing the tactics is doing exactly what it is expected to do.

burlington Red
05-05-2012, 10:48 PM
United do not play exclusively 4-4-2, a lot of times esp in Europe away they revert to 4-5-1, watch the game with City on Monday where they also played that system. My point being, you have to be flexible, you have to have a plan b, we don't, we play one way.