Steve Nicol or Thomas Rongen?

[ManUtd4ever]

If Aron Winter resigns or is relieved of his duties as a result of the ongoing crisis enveloping the club, the two most prominent names mentioned as capable replacements have been former New England skipper Steve Nicol and current TFC Academy Director Thomas Rongen. Both of them have impressive MLS credentials on their resumes and would theoretically represent an upgrade within the managerial ranks of our beloved beleaguered franchise.

Would you support such a decision? If not, who who would you entrust to right the good ship TFC?

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

you guys will hang the next one...just as fast

[Technorgasm]

Wonder who I am gonna vote for.???????????????

[Greatest Ripoff]

Wonder who I am gonna vote for.???????????????

And is that not the problem here? Too many fans with a biased view and thinking for the short term.

[Oldtimer]

Thomas Rongen:


MLS Cup winner (in the old days, yes, but during the same MLS 1.0 era that Nicol was doing well).
knows the academy players
knows the US young players
extensive network in US soccer
understands how to integrate the academy systems with the first team
knows how to adapt Dutch methodology to win in a US league
already on staff, so disruption is minimal

disadvantages: prefers to deal with youth, might not want the job.

Steve Nicole:

MLS Cup finalist (in the MLS 1.0 era, not so well later)
well respected in NE
good contacts in the league
managed to do well paired with Mariner
achieved regular playoff runs while working for the cheapest (by far) owner in MLS. What could he do under ML$E?

disadvantages: never won MLS Cup or SS in a decade of trying (did win US open Cup in 2007). Although he uses possession systems -- they are different than what the academy are using, and would mean starting over again.


While both have very strong points, I believe that Thomas Rongen would be the best choice, should replacing Winter be necessary. It would mean not blowing up everything and starting over, which I believe moving to a very different system would entail. KC shows us that 4-3-3 can work provided that you know how to adapt it to MLS (which KC have done). I would actually just swap Winter and Rongen (Winter has academy experience) and do no other changes.

Other options not mentioned in this poll are Mariner in charge or Danny Dichio in charge. Their disadvantages are lack of first team coaching experience.

[Oldtimer]

you guys will hang the next one...just as fast

:lol:

[Ossington Mental Youth]

you guys will hang the next one...just as fast

this

[ensco]

Why does everyone assume Nicol can't/won't play 4-3-3? He has certainly used it in the past.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-revolution/tag/_/name/houston-dynamo

[ryan]

you guys will hang the next one...just as fast

Indeed.

[Beach_Red]

Why does everyone assume Nicol can't/won't play 4-3-3? He has certainly used it in the past.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-revolution/tag/_/name/houston-dynamo

I know people dislike hockey references on this board but all this talk of coaches making adjustments to different styles makes me think Jacques Lemaire. One of the flying-est of the flying Frenchmen in Montreal, the most high-paced, wide-open style the NHL had ever seen and then when he takes over the New Jersey Devils he just doesn't have those players and he becomes the most defensive coach in the game.

Sometimes guys who get to the top of their professions can be flexible and know more than one way to do things.

[Section 117]

My question to the board if or when Winter is replaced how long are you guys going to wait to bitch and complain about his replacement?

I am convinced that there people on these boards that will never be happy period.

[Canary10]

What about Caleb Porter?

[ryan]

For every reference where making changes were successful, you can find a reference for where making changes did not, or you can find a reference for staying the course eventually paid off, but also where staying the course never did.

There's no right way to this. Nobody has a crystal ball to say which path will get us to a championship.

[Huyton]

Steve Nicol:
US Open Cup 2007
MLS Coach of the Year Award 2002
MLS Cup Runner-up: 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007
North American SuperLiga 2008

It should be noted that the Paul Mariner/Steve Nicol combination was dissolved in October 2009, when Mariner resigned from New England and went to Plymouth Argyle.

In 2010 and 2011, New England did not make the playoffs.


Rongen was one of the inaugural coaches in MLS, coaching the Tampa Bay Mutiny in their first season in 1996, with whom he won the MLS regular season, and also won MLS Coach of the Year Award. After a year with the Mutiny, Rongen moved to the New England Revolution, which he would coach in 1997 and 1998. After the Revolution, Rongen succeeded Bruce Arena as the head coach of D.C. United, which he would lead to an MLS Cup in 1999. However, Rongen lost his job with United in 2001, and was replaced with Ray Hudson. Upon leaving United, Rongen was appointed head coach of the United States U-20 men's national soccer team, which he coached from 2001 to his appointment as head coach of Chivas USA for the team's inaugural season in 2005. However, ten games into the season, with the team's record standing at one win, one tie, and eight losses, he was let go of his head coaching duties.

Rongen was appointed head coach of the Under-20 United States men's national team again in 2006 and led the team to the 2007 FIFA U-20 World Cup and 2009 FIFA U-20 World Cup. He was fired from that position in May 2011.

I'd move Winter to the Academy, bring in Nicol and let De Klerk and Rongen go.

[Beach_Red]

My question to the board if or when Winter is replaced how long are you guys going to wait to bitch and complain about his replacement?

I am convinced that there people on these boards that will never be happy period.

"If or when"? He didn't sign a lifetime contract, there's definitely a "when" he's gone, it's just a question of if he gets the team turned around and winning or not. Winning would stop all the bitching. Until then all we have is faith and for many people here Winter hasn't been able to get them to have enough faith in him.

[Canary10]

Some info about Porter. Would fit our vision very will, has ridiculously good winning record at Akron, has developed many good American (and Can. in the case of Turncoat Teal) players.


After his sixth year with Akron, Porter boasted a 105-17-14 (.824) record. He entered last season with the highest winning percentage (.841) of all current NCAA Division I coaches. Porter helped Akron to top-five finishes for goals scored and goals-against-average in both the 2009 and 2010 seasons, the only program in the nation to do so.

Porter has recruited and developed 14 players who have been drafted into MLS in the last five years at Akron alone, including No. 1 overall pick Steve Zakuani in 2009, No. 4 pick Teal Bunbury in 2010, No. 2 pick Darlington Nagbe in 2011 and No. 2 pick Darren Mattocks in 2012. Moreover, Akron set an MLS record with five of the first eight selections in the 2011 SuperDraft and seven draftees overall.

Porter, who is known for his attack-minded methods, was named the 2008, 2009 and 2011 Division I All-Ohio Coach of the Year and the 2009 NSCAA National Coach of the Year. He has also won the Mid-American Conference Coach of the Year award five consecutive times since 2007.

[Roogsy]

My question to the board if or when Winter is replaced how long are you guys going to wait to bitch and complain about his replacement?

I am convinced that there people on these boards that will never be happy period.

And you convinced yourself of this despite no playoffs for 5 maybe 6 years and an 0-7 start?

What exactly are we supposed to be happy about?

I never understood people who expect you to be happy about the steaming pile of shit you're handed. "Be grateful! At least it's hard not runny!".

I find it amusing that the criticism of Winter includes an element of being fired "too fast". Um...16 months and 60 games is too fast? I thought we agreed that stepping into another Mo-like promise of multi-year building was not necessary? Did we not learn our lesson? Because if that's the case, bring Mo back and let him finish his 5 year plan!

[Detroit_TFC]

Porter has been courted by a number of MLS teams based on his incredible work at Akron. His tenure with USMNT U-20 (holds that post while keeping his HC job at Akron) has been a bit of a disaster so far, so that has perhaps dropped his value some. I must admit it is thought provoking, he is a proponent of 4-3-3 although his attempts to implement it with U-20s kinda going about as well as it's going with TFC. So the question is, how is he able to do it at Akron and not with I'd assume are more talented nat team kids?

[trane]

My question to the board if or when Winter is replaced how long are you guys going to wait to bitch and complain about his replacement?

I am convinced that there people on these boards that will never be happy period.

Hahahhahhah. This is funny. Roogsy said it what exactly should have we been happy about. Other then CL success, we have been shit.

[Jack]

Hahahaha.

We're 0-7 and I have no indication things are going to get better. My patience is gone.

[Jack]

This poll is a bit silly. Very limited in the options for selection.

[Roogsy]

Hahahhahhah. This is funny. Roogsy said it what exactly should have we been happy about. Other then CL success, we have been shit.


I said it last year and it's coming around to bite us in the ass now.

Nobody set expectations. There are no measurements of accountability.

The team should have said "We are hiring Winter with the expectation of playoffs for this season" or "next season" or "We expect a winning record next season and we're giving his this season to build it" or "We expect a seeded playoff spot by year 3". Something. Something to measure against. Something for fans to see progress with. We got nothing. Just fluffy promises about style and system. And people buy it by the bucket.

And so we get fans fighting over how much time is enough time to give to a coach. The team should have resolved that. That's good ownership. That's good management. Then again, nobody can accuse MLSE of being good managers...and I don't expect them to learn their lesson as dense as they are.

But hopefully the next manager is indeed given time but goals and expectations must be set. Without benchmarks, we will be stumbling around in the dark again wondering if they're on the right path.

[DangerRed]

you guys will hang the next one...just as fast

Yes, if he starts a season 0-7 and doesn't come anywhere close to making the playoffs or redirecting the team in a positive direction, absolutely we'll hang him just as fast. As we should.

[Oldtimer]

I'd move Winter to the Academy, bring in Nicol and let De Klerk and Rongen go.

In other words you'd blow it all up and start all over again. If you look at New York, that has been their strategy all along. They have gone through a new coach every 18 months, just like TFC. You can see how well that has worked.

It's seems to be the assumption of some here that the reason why Nicol couldn't win anything of note (Superliga was a joke, and in 2007 most MLS sides were fielding their "B" squads in the US open Cup) is because of NE's cheap owner. However, if is the accepted wisdom amongst NE supporters that while Nicol can get a team so far, he can't actually bring it to the next level and win. He tried for a decade and couldn't do it. What evidence do you have that Nicol could do better under ML$E?

[trane]

^
Roogsy,

I agree. It does not add to confidence in the club. Every time I think I could not be more disilusioned, I get a bit more disilusioned. What I am still suprised at, that to time to time I feel the love for the club that I had in 2007. I would like feel it all the time, but it is hard.

[Section 117]

And you convinced yourself of this despite no playoffs for 5 maybe 6 years and an 0-7 start?

What exactly are we supposed to be happy about?

I never understood people who expect you to be happy about the sloppy pile of shit you're handed. "Be grateful! At least it's hard not runny!".

I find it amusing that the criticism of Winter includes an element of being fired "too fast". Um...16 months and 60 games is too fast? I thought we agreed that stepping into another Mo-like promise of multi-year building was not necessary? Did we not learn our lesson? Because if that's the case, bring Mo back and let him finish his 5 year plan!


Roogsy my point is at the end of the day no matter what happens there are people here that will never be happy period we could 7-0 and they would find shit to bitch about. I have never voiced my opinion on Winter and will not as I have a biased opinion. If upper management fires Winter then so be it.

Also, comparing Mo to Winter's regime is kind of stretch there was no backstabbing, under handed deals etc.. from this regime. You should know all to well about him.

When TFC went on the run in CCL where was the dissent? People come out of the woodwork when shit is going bad. I really don't give a shit who is the coach and who is on the field as the badge is more important that all of the above. I will support my team until the day I die. If i want to be a glory hound I would find a different team in this league.

[ExiledRed]

Thomas Rongen:


MLS Cup winner (in the old days, yes, but during the same MLS 1.0 era that Nicol was doing well).
knows the academy players
knows the US young players
extensive network in US soccer
understands how to integrate the academy systems with the first team
knows how to adapt Dutch methodology to win in a US league
already on staff, so disruption is minimal

disadvantages: prefers to deal with youth, might not want the job.

Steve Nicole:

MLS Cup finalist (in the MLS 1.0 era, not so well later)
well respected in NE
good contacts in the league
managed to do well paired with Mariner
achieved regular playoff runs while working for the cheapest (by far) owner in MLS. What could he do under ML$E?

disadvantages: never won MLS Cup or SS in a decade of trying (did win US open Cup in 2007). Although he uses possession systems -- they are different than what the academy are using, and would mean starting over again.


While both have very strong points, I believe that Thomas Rongen would be the best choice, should replacing Winter be necessary. It would mean not blowing up everything and starting over, which I believe moving to a very different system would entail. KC shows us that 4-3-3 can work provided that you know how to adapt it to MLS (which KC have done). I would actually just swap Winter and Rongen (Winter has academy experience) and do no other changes.

Other options not mentioned in this poll are Mariner in charge or Danny Dichio in charge. Their disadvantages are lack of first team coaching experience.

I understand you dont want Nicol, (no H and no E by the way, you always get it wrong) but thats no excuse for minimising his resume.

[Jack]

What evidence do we ever have that anyone is going to do well anywhere? Evidence suggested that Winter would be a good manager for TFC and look where we are now.

I'm not ASSuming that Nicol was limited by anything. Sometimes you don't win and you can't get over that hump in sports, despite putting together very good teams. Ask the Utah Jazz, the New York Knicks, the Portland Trailblazers...all of them were excellent, well-coached teams, but they couldn't get over the hump (well, the hump was called Michael Jordan). The Buffalo Bills had good teams and good coaches, but they couldn't nail down that Super Bowl.

Not winning it doesn't make Nicol a bad manager. People learn and grow and, presented with the challenge of turning this SS Titanic around, what makes you think he couldn't do a good job?

[Canary10]

Porter has been courted by a number of MLS teams based on his incredible work at Akron. His tenure with USMNT U-20 (holds that post while keeping his HC job at Akron) has been a bit of a disaster so far, so that has perhaps dropped his value some. I must admit it is thought provoking, he is a proponent of 4-3-3 although his attempts to implement it with U-20s kinda going about as well as it's going with TFC. So the question is, how is he able to do it at Akron and not with I'd assume are more talented nat team kids?

Yeah his national team experience hasn't been great as of yet (proud that Canada played a role in that). But his overal record as a manager is stirling and he understands what we're trying to do here.

[ryan]

I find it amusing that the criticism of Winter includes an element of being fired "too fast". Um...16 months and 60 games is too fast?

I don't think it's an accurate way to look at this. It's not as if he was brought in, as a change of voice in the locker room to motivate players differently. This is an entire club overhaul. I don't know why this needs to be repeated, or why it's expected that within 1 season and a bit we're supposed to be flying by now. He even told us not to expect playoffs last year because he and the organization understood the lengthy process this would take.


Anyone got a lead on a "one year plan" coach? Might as well queue up a few until one gets lucky.

[Beach_Red]

In other words you'd blow it all up and start all over again. If you look at New York, that has been their strategy all along. They have gone through a new coach every 18 months, just like TFC. You can see how well that has worked.

It's seems to be the assumption of some here that the reason why Nicol couldn't win anything of note (Superliga was a joke, and in 2007 most MLS sides were fielding their "B" squads in the US open Cup) is because of NE's cheap owner. However, if is the accepted wisdom amongst NE supporters that while Nicol can get a team so far, he can't actually bring it to the next level and win. He tried for a decade and couldn't do it. What evidence do you have that Nicol could do better under ML$E?

There's no evidence, of course. But you make a good point about Nicol maybe being able to take the team through the next step or two. Maybe the biggest mistake this team made was thinking they could skip those interim steps and get to where they hope to be without puttin in all that work. There didn't seem to be any plan to get from the shambles we were left in after Preki to the place where teams like KC are now. Like Roogs says, there were no benchmarks stated, no increment improvements, we're just told that "progress" that we can't see is being made.

[trane]

^ Hahahahaha. How can you possibly say that. We have never even been close to a winning record. How can you possibly speculate that we will not be happy with a 7-0 record? Listen no football team is ever perfect, but trust me we would be happy, with a 3-0 start never mind a 7-0 start.


If the badge was realy more importatn, then you would want someone who is worthy of leading the club.

[Roogsy]

It's seems to be the assumption of some here that the reason why Nicol couldn't win anything of note (Superliga was a joke, and in 2007 most MLS sides were fielding their "B" squads in the US open Cup) is because of NE's cheap owner. However, if is the accepted wisdom amongst NE supporters that while Nicol can get a team so far, he can't actually bring it to the next level and win. What evidence do you have that Nicol could do better under ML$E?

OT...that statement about the Superliga is hogwash. In it's short existance, it absolutely supplanted the previous version of the Champions League. You're acting like teams were fielding their U17s for the tournament. In the year they won, New England beat Santos Laguna (why does that name ring a bell?) and Pachuca (another bell?) and Atlante. In the final, they beat the Houston team that had just won the MLS Cup.

You can minimize it all you want, but the Superliga was highly promoted and the two leagues (Mexico and the MLS) were throwing resources into it in an effort to revive continental competition. If it weren't for the Superliga, we would not have the current Concacaf Champions League. Your characterization of it as a "joke" is awful. I am sure if Toronto had been in it, we would have raved about it's significance and importance.

[Whoop]

And you convinced yourself of this despite no playoffs for 5 maybe 6 years and an 0-7 start?

What exactly are we supposed to be happy about?

I never understood people who expect you to be happy about the sloppy pile of shit you're handed. "Be grateful! At least it's hard not runny!".

I find it amusing that the criticism of Winter includes an element of being fired "too fast". Um...16 months and 60 games is too fast? I thought we agreed that stepping into another Mo-like promise of multi-year building was not necessary? Did we not learn our lesson? Because if that's the case, bring Mo back and let him finish his 5 year plan!

How about firing a Hall of Fame coach in preseason after 2 games?

For what it's worth.

I've been reading a couple of American football books lately, and I came across the names of Jack Youngblood and Hacksaw Reynolds and the LA Rams. Upon looking up the Rams online - a team I remember as a kid but had forgotten about - I was looking up their 1978 season, when they went to the Super Bowl, and came across this. The Rams had hired George Allen, a well-respected coach and future Pro Football Hall of Fame member.



Third stint with the Rams After rejecting a $1 million, four-year contract offer throughout the 1977 season, Allen was dismissed by the Redskins after the 1977 season. Allen was replaced by one of his favorite players, Jack Pardee, by then the promising young head coach of the Bears. In February 1978 Rams owner Carroll Rosenbloom was searching for a new coach after parting ways with Chuck Knox. Allen returned to Los Angeles with much media fanfare. His second stint as the Rams' head coach was an unfortunate experience for all concerned. Allen did not have full authority over personnel and thus worked with general manager Don Klosterman to oversee a talented roster that had made the team a perennial playoff challenger. Allen brought with him his scrupulous discipline and attention to detail, which extended to practice-field protocol and dining-hall decorum. Almost immediately a group of Ram players chafed at the regulations, and some made their grievances public. A few, including standout linebacker Isaiah Robertson, briefly left camp. As newspaper reports were quoting players expressing confidence that differences would be resolved, the Rams played listlessly and lost the first two games of the 1978 exhibition schedule. Rosenbloom decided that for the season to be salvaged a change must be made, and the announcement of Allen's abrupt dismissal was made on August 13. Many of Allen's own players were surprised by the decision. Defensive coordinator Ray Malavasi, well-respected and liked by players (and the only holdover from Chuck Knox' staff), replaced him; the Rams ultimately advanced to that year's NFC Championship Game. Allen soon joined CBS Sports as an analyst for NFL network telecasts, and worked in the broadcast booth from 1977 to 1983.


So it didn't ruin the Rams season and they were a very good team in the NFC in the early 80s.

In hockey, in 2000 the New Jersey Devils fired their coach, Robbie Ftorek with 9 games left in the season even though the Devils were one of the top teams in the East. They replaced him with assistant coach Larry Robinson and wound up winning the Cup. It didn't kill the Devils. The Devils have always been one of the more respected franchises in the league.

And there are many on this board who know the story of Brian Clough at Leeds. The sacking of Clough didn't kill Leeds.

So there are many ways to handle it. If things aren't working out you find a way to fix it. One difference really with the above examples though it that there were solid people making the decisions in the first place.

Either way for all the crying and moaning about stability - and believe I'm a HUGE believer in stability - when things aren't working, things aren't working. I'm also a big believer if things aren't working, to cut the cord quickly before it becomes even worse.

[Oldtimer]

Not winning it doesn't make Nicol a bad manager. People learn and grow and, presented with the challenge of turning this SS Titanic around, what makes you think he couldn't do a good job?

I actually am not against Nicol per se, we're all pretty desperate around here for someone who can do something, and I would welcome him in. If you're talking about blowing up the whole academy system like Huyton was, I want more evidence than just a hopeful possibility.

[ryan]

When TFC went on the run in CCL where was the dissent? People come out of the woodwork when shit is going bad.

It's modern day Toronto sports fandom. Everyone turns into a comedian to slag our franchises, nobody wants to give them credit for any success they do have. Where's the opportunity to be a smug arsehole then? That's no fun right? I think people prefer to lose just to satisfy their desires to make such commentary because they don't have much to say when the team's do find success.

[trane]

I don't think it's an accurate way to look at this. It's not as if he was brought in, as a change of voice in the locker room to motivate players differently. This is an entire club overhaul. I don't know why this needs to be repeated, or why it's expected that within 1 season and a bit we're supposed to be flying by now. He even told us not to expect playoffs last year because he and the organization understood the lengthy process this would take.


Anyone got a lead on a "one year plan" coach? Might as well queue up a few until one gets lucky.


How is expecting the team to "fly", we just expected that after some 60 odd games, we woudl be competitive out of the gates in year 2. 0-7 can not be excused. There are not exuses for it.

[Beach_Red]

Roogsy my point is at the end of the day no matter what happens there are people here that will never be happy period we could 7-0 and they would find shit to bitch about. I have never voiced my opinion on Winter and will not as I have a biased opinion. If upper management fires Winter then so be it.

Also, comparing Mo to Winter's regime is kind of stretch there was no backstabbing, under handed deals etc.. from this regime. You should know all to well about him.

When TFC went on the run in CCL where was the dissent? People come out of the woodwork when shit is going bad. I really don't give a shit who is the coach and who is on the field as the badge is more important that all of the above. I will support my team until the day I die. If i want to be a glory hound I would find a different team in this league.

Okay, so there's your answer - when TFC is winning there's no dissent. It would be nice to see what happens at 7-0. Or 6-1. Or 5-1-1, or...

[ExiledRed]

OT...that statement about the Superliga is hogwash. In it's short existance, it absolutely supplanted the previous version of the Champions League. You're acting like teams were fielding their U17s for the tournament. In the year they won, New England beat Santos Laguna (why does that name ring a bell?) and Pachuca (another bell?) and Atlante. In the final, they beat the Houston team that had just won the MLS Cup.

You can minimize it all you want, but the Superliga was highly promoted and the two leagues (Mexico and the MLS) were throwing resources into it in an effort to revive continental competition. If it weren't for the Superliga, we would not have the current Concacaf Champions League. Your characterization of it as a "joke" is awful. I am sure if Toronto had been in it, we would have raved about it's significance and importance.

I wish he would just stop posting, his inaccuracies are fucking dangerous, and seem to be supporting an agenda.

Its insanity to dismiss the Superliga, or the Open Cup when we cant even buy a point.

[Canary10]

Nicol's final 5 years at New England yielded ever declining point totals:
2007: 50
2008: 43
2009: 42
2010: 33
2011: 28

Half his coaching career at New England was spent getting worse point totals than the year before. He did well enough in the old MLS, not great in MLS 2.0.

[trane]

It's modern day Toronto sports fandom. Everyone turns into a comedian to slag our franchises, nobody wants to give them credit for any success they do have. Where's the opportunity to be a smug arsehole then? That's no fun right? I think people prefer to lose just to satisfy their desires to make such commentary because they don't have much to say when the team's do find success.


We gave plenty of credit for succes, the win in Montreal, the run in CL, but THERE HAS HARDLY BEEN any succes for 6 years. Are you being serious? Have you not watched this franchise? Do you realize that the goal of a football club is to win football games, we have hardly won, in fact we have hardly been competitive. What do you expect?

[Jack]

The CCL run was great to see and I am very proud of what we did, even if a couple of players immensely shit the bed vs. Santos. But at the same time as that run was going on, people were already voicing their concerns about our MLS performances. Now that the CCL is behind us, we are left with these MLS performances, made all the more frustrating in contrast to the CCL performances. You don't expect people to be a bit negative and frustrated?

And I've seen many of the same posters be positive when the team gives them a reason to be so.

[Roogsy]

I wish he would just stop posting, his inaccuracies are fucking dangerous, and seem to be supporting an agenda.

Its insanity to dismiss the Superliga, or the Open Cup when we cant even buy a point.

I have to agree. It's pretty ballsy to dismiss the record Nichol has and in the same breath preach faith and patience in Winter who has not had a fraction of that success. The standard is so inconsistent it leaves you whiplashed.

[Roogsy]

Nicol's final 5 years at New England yielded ever declining point totals:
2007: 50
2008: 43
2009: 42
2010: 33
2011: 28

Half his coaching career at New England was spent getting worse point totals than the year before. He did well enough in the old MLS, not great in MLS 2.0.

A significant element of MLS 2.0 is rosters with DPs. How many DPs was Nichol given to work with?

[Jack]

Nicol's final 5 years at New England yielded ever declining point totals:
2007: 50
2008: 43
2009: 42
2010: 33
2011: 28

Half his coaching career at New England was spent getting worse point totals than the year before. He did well enough in the old MLS, not great in MLS 2.0.

That is a concerning decline.

I'm not on the "bring in Nicol" bandwagon, per se, but I am on the "why not consider him?" one. g:D

[ExiledRed]

It's modern day Toronto sports fandom. Everyone turns into a comedian to slag our franchises, nobody wants to give them credit for any success they do have. Where's the opportunity to be a smug arsehole then? That's no fun right? I think people prefer to lose just to satisfy their desires to make such commentary because they don't have much to say when the team's do find success.

When your team is winning you get the opportunity to be a smug arsehole to supporters of other teams. This is the law of football.

[Canary10]

A significant element of MLS 2.0 is rosters with DPs. How many DPs was Nichol given to work with?


So now it's the players he had? How fun this next coaching change will be when roles are reversed on this board!

[Oldtimer]

OT...that statement about the Superliga is hogwash. In it's short existance, it absolutely supplanted the previous version of the Champions League. You're acting like teams were fielding their U17s for the tournament. In the year they won, New England beat Santos Laguna (why does that name ring a bell?) and Pachuca (another bell?) and Atlante. In the final, they beat the Houston team that had just won the MLS Cup.



The Mexican sides played their B squads mostly because it didn't have a World Club Cup attached. It was mostly a cash grab by SUM and the Mexican sides.
TFC beat LA in the CCL, which is just as much an accomplishment as NE beating Houston in the Superliga.

He might do great here. I just want more proof if someone is talking blowing up the academy. If you're just talking someone who can help the first team for a while, I'm listening.

[ryan]

How is expecting the team to "fly", we just expected that after some 60 odd games, we woudl be competitive out of the gates in year 2. 0-7 can not be excused. There are not exuses for it.

Koevermans and Johnson's inability to capitalize on great opportunities
Emory's gaffs
Frings fuck ups

Are these anyone but those players faults? No, but I'm sure you'll disagree to satisfy your arguments against coaching.


Competitive out of the gates, I guess we somehow topped LA to start out season without any competitiveness.
I wouldn't call the stats from the Columbus, Montreal, Chivas and Chicago games being competitive either.
Nor would I call that effort in the very difficult Rio Tinto competitive...

Nothing competitive about this club. You're entirely right.

[Canary10]

We all want the best possible manager. But let's look at all the facts surrounding each.

[Whoop]

And again, why do people automatically think that if Nicol, or some other outsider, is brought in that TFC is going to blow up "everything" like the academy?

People... this is a first team issue, not an academy issue/philosophy.

I can agree with the fact that if anything should be blown up it's probably the front office and it's structure but the academy, though important, is a totally separate animal.

a) I'm sure a competent coach like Nichol, or some other EXPERIENCED coach, can coach a 4-3-3 if it is imperative though I'm certain an EXPERIENCED coach can adjust the formation and tactics with the squad he is given.
b) Even if a guy like Nicol or some other EXPERIENCED coach comes in and even if he has success in turning the team around, what are the odds they'll still be here 5-10 years from now when the fruits of the academy are passing through the first team?

The goal isn't so much to win right now or make the playoffs it's to bring some respectability to the club. Sure the CCL was nice but at this rate TFC won't be making the CCL any time soon and the meat and potatoes of the team's schedule, the league, where the team is 0-7 is laughable.

So right now, the key is the change the mentality of the opponents who look at the 0-7 record, the backline in shambles, and laugh and laugh and laugh to one where when they play TFC they know they're going to have a tough time to get any points. And whatever they throw at TFC they know that TFC will be able to adjust and counter.

[Roogsy]

Roogsy my point is at the end of the day no matter what happens there are people here that will never be happy period we could 7-0 and they would find shit to bitch about. I have never voiced my opinion on Winter and will not as I have a biased opinion. If upper management fires Winter then so be it.

You are contradicting yourself bro...first you say we won't be happy with going 7-0 and then you say...


When TFC went on the run in CCL where was the dissent? People come out of the woodwork when shit is going bad.

So there was no dissent when things were going decently in the CCL you're sure people won't be happy going 7-0? That's a wildly inconsistent statement.


Also, comparing Mo to Winter's regime is kind of stretch there was no backstabbing, under handed deals etc.. from this regime. You should know all to well about him.

I don't think anyone has compared Mo's dishonesty to Winter's regime. But if the results aren't better, then all we have is a more honest version of MoJo. That simply isn't good enough.


I really don't give a shit who is the coach and who is on the field as the badge is more important that all of the above. I will support my team until the day I die. If i want to be a glory hound I would find a different team in this league.

And this is the ulimate fallacy that is promoted on this board. That wanting Winter gone is the equivalent of being a glory-hound. There is almost a martyrdom-like personality on these boards where people take some sort of pride in being shit just to prove what quality of supporters they are. I think it's silly.

[ExiledRed]

The Mexican sides played their B squads mostly because it didn't have a World Club Cup attached. It was mostly a cash grab by SUM and the Mexican sides.
TFC beat LA in the CCL, which is just as much an accomplishment as NE's.

Can you not see why people get frustrated? You present opinions as straight facts, to support your arguments.

When the facts prove wrong, you look silly.

[ExiledRed]

Koevermans and Johnson's inability to capitalize on great opportunities
Emory's gaffs
Frings fuck ups

Are these anyone but those players faults? No, but I'm sure you'll disagree to satisfy your arguments against coaching.


This is too tired now. Its the coach's fault that those players are out there making mistakes. Its on the coach. Something has to be on the coach ffs.

[Jack]

Koevermans and Johnson's inability to capitalize on great opportunities
Emory's gaffs
Frings fuck ups

Are these anyone but those players faults? No, but I'm sure you'll disagree to satisfy your arguments against coaching.


Competitive out of the gates, I guess we somehow topped LA to start out season without any competitiveness.
I wouldn't call the stats from the Columbus, Montreal, Chivas and Chicago games being competitive either.
Nor would I call that effort in the very difficult Rio Tinto competitive...

Nothing competitive about this club. You're entirely right.

While I understand your point about being competitive, we are 0-7. We can't win a game. If that's down to player mistakes, then what is causing those mistakes? Why are these players not prepared, focused and competitive? Why is our DP striker out of shape and not being whipped into condition by the manager? Is he the boss, or not?

[Oldtimer]

Can you not see why people get frustrated? You present opinions as straight facts, to support your arguments.

When the facts prove wrong, you look silly.

So show me the facts. You're wrong and you know it.

[Roogsy]

So now it's the players he had? How fun this next coaching change will be when roles are reversed on this board!

Of course it is. The biggest element of Nichol's record in the last few years was ownership's refusal to spend on the club. You don't think that would affect his results? Or any coach?

Case in point: Have you run an analysis on Winter's record with and without his Designated Players? Do it. It will open your eyes. If you think we have at best an average if not below average record with our DPs, you should see our record without them. TFC does not live in a bubble as is often reminded to us. That same variable applies to other squads. Unless you think the Galaxy would win as much as they have these past couple of years without Donovan and Beckham? You try losing Twellman (your all-time leading scorer) to career-ending injury and not having him replaced because ownership doesn't want to spend the dollars.

[Beach_Red]

That is a concerning decline.

I'm not on the "bring in Nicol" bandwagon, per se, but I am on the "why not consider him?" one. g:D

Yes, I would hope for once they'd actually set a goal (make the playoffs?) and then look at more than one candidate.

Winter is really just a cog in the works, it could have been him or it could have been some other guy Klinsmann recommended, there was nothing about Winter's personality or record that got him the job. He was hired to carry out a plan someone else came up with.

I know guys here are pretty concerned about systems and styles and years from now all that, but what this team really needs right now is leadership. We have no chairman, no president, no one on any kind of long-term contract with the club. If we could get a coach who has spent years in MLS and is respected by the rest of the league it would make a huge difference to the team.

[ryan]

We gave plenty of credit for succes, the win in Montreal, the run in CL, but THERE HAS HARDLY BEEN any succes for 6 years. Are you being serious? Have you not watched this franchise? Do you realize that the goal of a football club is to win football games, we have hardly won, in fact we have hardly been competitive. What do you expect?

What the shit does the previous results to the coaching staff have to do with this topic? All you're proving to me here is you're pissed off with the club and passing blame from the old coach to the new. "Welcome to Toronto FC, 7th head coach, just to let you know the previous years are all your fault too, good luck!"

Bloody hell.

[Jack]

No vision, no goals, no wins.

Sounds like an MLSE team.

On the playing field, of course. I'll bet the organization is meeting its financial goals.

[Detroit_TFC]

Yeah his national team experience hasn't been great as of yet (proud that Canada played a role in that). But his overal record as a manager is stirling and he understands what we're trying to do here.

Sorry - Porter is US national U-23/Olympic team coach, oops. Tab Ramos is the U-20 coach. Many thought Porter was cooked after the qualifying fiasco but with the fooball factory he has at Akron, JK wants to keep him integrated in the development approach, not a bad idea.

[ensco]

My question to the board if or when Winter is replaced how long are you guys going to wait to bitch and complain about his replacement?

I am convinced that there people on these boards that will never be happy period.

Ahhh the old "a lot of people here seem to have psychological problems or be miserable human beings" argument. Been a while, but there were about 87 threads saying this last fall.

I think you have to try to imagine what this site would be like if we weren't unequivocally and demonstrably the worst team in MLS history.

[Canary10]

And again, why do people automatically think that if Nicol, or some other outsider, is brought in that TFC is going to blow up "everything" like the academy?

People... this is a first team issue, not an academy issue/philosophy.

I can agree with the fact that if anything should be blown up it's probably the front office and it's structure but the academy, though important, is a totally separate animal.

a) I'm sure a competent coach like Nichol, or some other EXPERIENCED coach, can coach a 4-3-3 if it is imperative though I'm certain an EXPERIENCED coach can adjust the formation and tactics with the squad he is given.
b) Even if a guy like Nicol or some other EXPERIENCED coach comes in and even if he has success in turning the team around, what are the odds they'll still be here 5-10 years from now when the fruits of the academy are passing through the first team?

The goal isn't so much to win right now or make the playoffs it's to bring some respectability to the club. Sure the CCL was nice but at this rate TFC won't be making the CCL any time soon and the meat and potatoes of the team's schedule, the league, where the team is 0-7 is laughable.

So right now, the key is the change the mentality of the opponents who look at the 0-7 record, the backline in shambles, and laugh and laugh and laugh to one where when they play TFC they know they're going to have a tough time to get any points. And whatever they throw at TFC they know that TFC will be able to adjust and counter.


I don't agree with this. The first team coach sets the entire direction of the club top to bottom. The ONE thing successful clubs have in common is they play the same type of game from first team on down and back up again. We could quite easily get a manager who wants to change the whole thing, and they could do it. We'll find out how committed MLSE are to this "way of playing" or whether it's all just words to sell tickets. I agree a coaching change doesn't HAVE to mean changing the whole thing, but that's why we need someone who understands the vision.

[ensco]

If Aron Winter resigns or is relieved of his duties as a result of the ongoing crisis enveloping the club, the two most prominent names mentioned as capable replacements have been former New England skipper Steve Nicol and current TFC Academy Director Thomas Rongen. Both of them have impressive MLS credentials on their resumes and would theoretically represent an upgrade within the managerial ranks of our beloved beleaguered franchise.

Would you support such a decision? If not, who who would you entrust to right the good ship TFC?

Btw tip of the hat to you for a great thread, where the poll is well thought through. Someone else didn't like it earlier, but I disagree. A good poll captures the assessment of the argument in the thread, not every possible alternative.

[Whoop]

The declining point rate in Nicol's last years with NER would be more of a concern than the fact his teams never won the MLS Cup.

But like players, sometimes coaches also need a change of scenery.

While I'm not on the "Nicol bandwagon" I'd still take Nicol's declining point rate over the inexperience, and 0 points in 2012, of Winter.

[Roogsy]

The Mexican sides played their B squads mostly because it didn't have a World Club Cup attached. It was mostly a cash grab by SUM and the Mexican sides.
TFC beat LA in the CCL, which is just as much an accomplishment as NE beating Houston in the Superliga.


All continental competitions are "cash grabs". Do you think Manchester United or Barcelona aren't looking at the big pay day at the end of their CL runs? That's a red herring OT. An irrelevant point.

And yet it makes little sense to assume the Mexican teams, who would very much like to win the competition (which did have a hefty prize sum), would then field their B team. I am going to challenge you on that and say that Mexican teams did NOT field their B teams. Since your position is that they did, I look forward to seeing your provide evidence that they did not field competitive teams in the Superliga despite your additional assertion that they did want the prize money. There is a disconnect there that I hope you address.

You are basically asserting that while Barcelona would like to win the UCL, they decided to field their B team against Chelsea. It's rdiculous. It simply comes across as trying to dismiss a success because it fails to support your own opinion.

[Canary10]

Of course it is. The biggest element of Nichol's record in the last few years was ownership's refusal to spend on the club. You don't think that would affect his results? Or any coach?

Case in point: Have you run an analysis on Winter's record with and without his Designated Players? Do it. It will open your eyes. If you think we have at best an average if not below average record with our DPs, you should see our record without them. TFC does not live in a bubble as is often reminded to us. That same variable applies to other squads. Unless you think the Galaxy would win as much as they have these past couple of years without Donovan and Beckham? You try losing Twellman (your all-time leading scorer) to career-ending injury and not having him replaced because ownership doesn't want to spend the dollars.

Their management spend dollars to keep Shalrie Joseph as a DP. Other than not building them a stadium, saying they wouldn't replace Dempsey, Twellman, etc is pure speculation. What we do know for certain is that Nicol had declining results every year in MLS 2.0 came into being. Doesn't that worry you at all?

I love it. We're now fighting over coaches we don't even have!

[Section 117]

You are contradicting yourself bro...first you say we won't be happy with going 7-0 and then you say...



So there was no dissent when things were going decently in the CCL you're sure people won't be happy going 7-0? That's a wildly inconsistent statement.



I don't think anyone has compared Mo's dishonesty to Winter's regime. But if the results aren't better, then all we have is a more honest version of MoJo. That simply isn't good enough.



And this is the ulimate fallacy that is promoted on this board. That wanting Winter gone is the equivalent of being a glory-hound. There is almost a martyrdom-like personality on these boards where people take some sort of pride in being shit just to prove what quality of supporters they are. I think it's silly.

The other points I am not going to argue with you as this will end up like the Dero argument....

That being said as a support you should stick with your club no matter what. When Napoli was relegated to Serie C2 they still had their fans, in Serie B they were averaging 60,000 fans and now they are back in Serie A. Look at Leeds they were left for dead due to bad financial management they now average over 30,000 and they are now in the Championship and there is countless other examples around the world. Did any of these fans walk away and give up?

My point being if you support your team it should be through thick and thin no matter what. If people don't like it then leave it is not about a martyr or any bullshit like that. I want our team to win more than almost anything, but I will not give up on them.

[ExiledRed]

So show me the facts. You're wrong and you know it.

Wrong about what? I havent presented an opinion in this thread, other than that you present opinions as facts like 'superliga was a cash grab' so as to diminish its importance.

Same with how you presented Nicol's resume as 'mls cup finalist' (back in mls 1.0 days) which is different from 4 time cup finalist, and 8 out of 10 playoff appearances.

[Section 117]

Ahhh the old "a lot of people here seem to have psychological problems or be miserable human beings" argument. Been a while, but there were about 87 threads saying this last fall.

I think you have to try to imagine what this site would be like if we weren't unequivocally and demonstrably the worst team in MLS history.


Thanks for the condesending bullshit...

I have a question how long will the new manager have then?

[Whoop]

I don't agree with this. The first team coach sets the entire direction of the club top to bottom. The ONE thing successful clubs have in common is they play the same type of game from first team on down and back up again. We could quite easily get a manager who wants to change the whole thing, and they could do it. We'll find out how committed MLSE are to this "way of playing" or whether it's all just words to sell tickets. I agree a coaching change doesn't HAVE to mean changing the whole thing, but that's why we need someone who understands the vision.

And a coach like Nicol, or any other candidate, doesn't understand the vision? It seems that is the big knock on him even though there is no evidence of this.

[ryan]

While I understand your point about being competitive, we are 0-7. We can't win a game. If that's down to player mistakes, then what is causing those mistakes? Why are these players not prepared, focused and competitive? Why is our DP striker out of shape and not being whipped into condition by the manager? Is he the boss, or not?

What's causing the mistakes? The players? How do you prepare further for missed headers by inches? What do you do to make Johnson make those? What hasn't Koevermans learned in his career to execute his chances? Did he magically forget to shoot past the keeper and Winter needs to remind him he's doing it wrong?

Ok, so DK's not been in shape. Perhaps we should bench him in favour of...? Oh wait we don't really have anything of quality to bring in off the bench. Maybe sign someone? Oh wait, the MLS has bloody rules out the ass, so we can't do that either. Oh wait, management won't let us bench another struggling DP, so he'll have to play anyways. Fuck it, Winter it's your fault, lets bring in another coach who will magically not be handicapped by all this!

There is desire to be successful, the players haven't been successful but do you really think they don't desire to win? Statisically, we out chanced/possessed Columbus/Chivas/Chicago/San Jose and were equal on the road at Montreal and Seattle, and gave RSL a decent showing despite them outplaying us in that regard.

That is the very definition of being competitive, the desire to succeed. Getting results isn't the definition of competitiveness, that would be success. If we didn't desire it, we wouldn't have shown that in 7 of 7 games.

There is clear breakdowns happening, giving teams far too easy chances, there is no doubt. But are these numbers all fudged? How are we putting the same or more balls at the net and more often controlling the ball more, without a desire to compete?


Execution, that's on the players and they know it.

[trane]

Koevermans and Johnson's inability to capitalize on great opportunities
Emory's gaffs
Frings fuck ups

Are these anyone but those players faults? No, but I'm sure you'll disagree to satisfy your arguments against coaching.


Competitive out of the gates, I guess we somehow topped LA to start out season without any competitiveness.
I wouldn't call the stats from the Columbus, Montreal, Chivas and Chicago games being competitive either.
Nor would I call that effort in the very difficult Rio Tinto competitive...

Nothing competitive about this club. You're entirely right.

YES I am entirely right. In law what you are is WILLFULLY BLIND. WE ARE 0-7. There is nothing competitive about a 0-7 club.

My president said it. But let me say it my way WAKE UP WE ARE 0-7.

What the fuck is hard to understand about that? You are not competitive if you are 0-7.
for the record, I think we have the players it takes to be competitive in this league.

[Whoop]

The other points I am not going to argue with you as this will end up like the Dero argument....

That being said as a support you should stick with your club no matter what. When Napoli was relegated to Serie C2 they still had their fans, in Serie B they were averaging 60,000 fans and now they are back in Serie A. Look at Leeds they were left for dead due to bad financial management they now average over 30,000 and they are now in the Championship and there is countless other examples around the world. Did any of these fans walk away and give up?

My point being if you support your team it should be through thick and thin no matter what. If people don't like it then leave it is not about a martyr or any bullshit like that. I want our team to win more than almost anything, but I will not give up on them.

But those clubs also have history.

Problem TFC faces right now - and while you don't want to look at it from a business point of view... but you have to - TFC had how many season ticket holders when they started? Let's say 16,000. At the peak they were maxed out and have a waiting list of say 5,000.

Right now? If things progress the way they are, I'll say they'll have a season ticket base of 5,000 next year.

Remember this is the last year of the price freeze. I would say if the team keeps going the way it is even a price deduction might save the season ticket base.

[trane]

What's causing the mistakes? The players? How do you prepare further for missed headers by inches? What do you do to make Johnson make those? What hasn't Koevermans learned in his career to execute his chances? Did he magically forget to shoot past the keeper and Winter needs to remind him he's doing it wrong?

Ok, so DK's not been in shape. Perhaps we should bench him in favour of...? Oh wait we don't really have anything of quality to bring in off the bench. Maybe sign someone? Oh wait, the MLS has bloody rules out the ass, so we can't do that either. Oh wait, management won't let us bench another struggling DP, so he'll have to play anyways. Fuck it, Winter it's your fault, lets bring in another coach who will magically not be handicapped by all this!

There is desire to be successful, the players haven't been successful but do you really think they don't desire to win? Statisically, we out chanced/possessed Columbus/Chivas/Chicago/San Jose and were equal on the road at Montreal and Seattle, and gave RSL a decent showing despite them outplaying us in that regard.

That is the very definition of being competitive, the desire to succeed. Getting results isn't the definition of competitiveness, that would be success. If we didn't desire it, we wouldn't have shown that in 7 of 7 games.

There is clear breakdowns happening, giving teams far too easy chances, there is no doubt. But are these numbers all fudged? How are we putting the same or more balls at the net and more often controlling the ball more, without a desire to compete?


Execution, that's on the players and they know it.

You sir are the definition of willful blindness.

[ryan]

YES I am entirely right. In law what you are is WILLFULLY BLIND. WE ARE 0-7. There is nothing competitive about a 0-7 club.

My president said it. But let me say it my way WAKE UP WE ARE 0-7.

What the fuck is hard to understand about that? You are not competitive if you are 0-7.
for the record, I think we have the players it takes to be competitive in this league.

We are unsuccessful, not uncompetitive. Grab a dictionary.

[trane]

^ hahhahahhahahhahahahahhahahah. You are funny. MLSE till you die, I guess.


Look at our goal differential it reads u-n-c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-v-e.

[Lumpy]

What's causing the mistakes? The players? How do you prepare further for missed headers by inches? What do you do to make Johnson make those? What hasn't Koevermans learned in his career to execute his chances? Did he magically forget to shoot past the keeper and Winter needs to remind him he's doing it wrong?

Ok, so DK's not been in shape. Perhaps we should bench him in favour of...? Oh wait we don't really have anything of quality to bring in off the bench. Maybe sign someone? Oh wait, the MLS has bloody rules out the ass, so we can't do that either. Oh wait, management won't let us bench another struggling DP, so he'll have to play anyways. Fuck it, Winter it's your fault, lets bring in another coach who will magically not be handicapped by all this!

There is desire to be successful, the players haven't been successful but do you really think they don't desire to win? Statisically, we out chanced/possessed Columbus/Chivas/Chicago/San Jose and were equal on the road at Montreal and Seattle, and gave RSL a decent showing despite them outplaying us in that regard.

That is the very definition of being competitive, the desire to succeed. Getting results isn't the definition of competitiveness, that would be success. If we didn't desire it, we wouldn't have shown that in 7 of 7 games.

There is clear breakdowns happening, giving teams far too easy chances, there is no doubt. But are these numbers all fudged? How are we putting the same or more balls at the net and more often controlling the ball more, without a desire to compete?


Execution, that's on the players and they know it.

Your argument is very logical. It will never fly.

[Canary10]

"And a coach like Nicol, or any other candidate, doesn't understand the vision? It seems that is the big knock on him even though there is no evidence of this."

I've not seen evidence that he's put in place our system, no. If people that support him can provide some insight beyond he's available, let's take, him I'd consider. But so far there hasn't been much to convince me.

Caleb Porter, however, we know has experience implementing 4-3-3 in a North American environment and plays an attacking style of football, while also having extremely low goals against. We know for sure he gets it. If we can get him, he should be in the conversation.

[Jack]

Btw tip of the hat to you for a great thread, where the poll is well thought through. Someone else didn't like it earlier, but I disagree. A good poll captures the assessment of the argument in the thread, not every possible alternative.
Well, at the very least it could have a "none of the above" option. I feel like there are other options available to us than the ones listed in this poll. At least perhaps adding "another coach from within MLS".

Anyway, perhaps my criticism was to generic and harsh, but I do think the poll doesn't cover the full content of the discussion about how to move ahead with our manager situation.

[Whoop]

What's causing the mistakes? The players? How do you prepare further for missed headers by inches? What do you do to make Johnson make those? What hasn't Koevermans learned in his career to execute his chances? Did he magically forget to shoot past the keeper and Winter needs to remind him he's doing it wrong?

Ok, so DK's not been in shape. Perhaps we should bench him in favour of...? Oh wait we don't really have anything of quality to bring in off the bench. Maybe sign someone? Oh wait, the MLS has bloody rules out the ass, so we can't do that either. Oh wait, management won't let us bench another struggling DP, so he'll have to play anyways. Fuck it, Winter it's your fault, lets bring in another coach who will magically not be handicapped by all this!

There is desire to be successful, the players haven't been successful but do you really think they don't desire to win? Statisically, we out chanced/possessed Columbus/Chivas/Chicago/San Jose and were equal on the road at Montreal and Seattle, and gave RSL a decent showing despite them outplaying us in that regard.

That is the very definition of being competitive, the desire to succeed. Getting results isn't the definition of competitiveness, that would be success. If we didn't desire it, we wouldn't have shown that in 7 of 7 games.

There is clear breakdowns happening, giving teams far too easy chances, there is no doubt. But are these numbers all fudged? How are we putting the same or more balls at the net and more often controlling the ball more, without a desire to compete?


Execution, that's on the players and they know it.

Management knows the framework of the rules... that's not on MLS, that's on the management staff and the coaching staff.

This is Winter's team. How many players are holdovers from the previous regime? 3? 4?

Sure the players aren't executing but it's also on this management staff and coaching staff for not bringing in the right players and also their fault for handicapping the team in relation to the cap so much that they can't bring in other players. That's not on the players, that's on management and the coaching staff.

And who is the management staff and who is the coaching staff?

[ryan]

^ hahhahahhahahhahahahahhahahah. You are funny. MLSE till you die, I guess.

Do you deny the meaning of a word?

[trane]

^
Look at our goal differential it reads u-n-c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-v-e.

Apparently Ryan is also spelled denial.

[trane]

Your argument is very logical. It will never fly.

You are right Socrates.

[Whoop]

"And a coach like Nicol, or any other candidate, doesn't understand the vision? It seems that is the big knock on him even though there is no evidence of this."

I've not seen evidence that he's put in place our system, no. If people that support him can provide some insight beyond he's available, let's take, him I'd consider. But so far there hasn't been much to convince me.

Caleb Porter, however, we know has experience implementing 4-3-3 in a North American environment and plays an attacking style of football, while also having extremely low goals against. We know for sure he gets it. If we can get him, he should be in the conversation.

Ideally you should be looking at ALL candidates, not just guys handpicked by Jurgen Klinsmann.

I'm just asking for an EXPERIENCED coach who can work with the roster that TFC has. Like trane says, and I agree, there are pieces in place on the roster that should make the team more competitive. I figured the team was good enough to squeak into the playoffs but at this juncture the playoffs are already a distant memory.

And if you think things are bad now, wait until the team is a) knocked out of the Voyageurs Cup and b) out of the playoffs. Will Winter be able to motivate a squad that has, in reality, nothing to play for but pride? Winter doesn't seem like that kind of motivator.

[ryan]

Management knows the framework of the rules... that's not on MLS, that's on the management staff and the coaching staff.

This is Winter's team. How many players are holdovers from the previous regime? 3? 4?

Sure the players aren't executing but it's also on this management staff and coaching staff for not bringing in the right players and also their fault for handicapping the team in relation to the cap so much that they can't bring in other players. That's not on the players, that's on management and the coaching staff.

And who is the management staff and who is the coaching staff?

One of the key spots and chunks of salary is tied up to JDG. It's not up to Winter or Mariner to buy him out, that much is obvious. A DP can change a team entirely if it's the right one. What would NYRB be without Henry? I suppose the next month will tell us that.

Johnson, DK, Plata all executed last year did they not? So lets ship them out now they've stopped executing this season? I suppose this was to be predicted before it happened?

[ryan]

^
Look at our goal differential it reads u-n-c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-v-e.

Apparently Ryan is also spelled denial.

I guess you do deny it. Cool story bro.

[trane]

^ Coach Winter is that you?

[Jack]

What's causing the mistakes? The players? How do you prepare further for missed headers by inches? What do you do to make Johnson make those? What hasn't Koevermans learned in his career to execute his chances? Did he magically forget to shoot past the keeper and Winter needs to remind him he's doing it wrong?

Ok, so DK's not been in shape. Perhaps we should bench him in favour of...? Oh wait we don't really have anything of quality to bring in off the bench. Maybe sign someone? Oh wait, the MLS has bloody rules out the ass, so we can't do that either. Oh wait, management won't let us bench another struggling DP, so he'll have to play anyways. Fuck it, Winter it's your fault, lets bring in another coach who will magically not be handicapped by all this!

There is desire to be successful, the players haven't been successful but do you really think they don't desire to win? Statisically, we out chanced/possessed Columbus/Chivas/Chicago/San Jose and were equal on the road at Montreal and Seattle, and gave RSL a decent showing despite them outplaying us in that regard.

That is the very definition of being competitive, the desire to succeed. Getting results isn't the definition of competitiveness, that would be success. If we didn't desire it, we wouldn't have shown that in 7 of 7 games.

There is clear breakdowns happening, giving teams far too easy chances, there is no doubt. But are these numbers all fudged? How are we putting the same or more balls at the net and more often controlling the ball more, without a desire to compete?


Execution, that's on the players and they know it.

It just boggles my mind that our players keep making the same dumb mistakes over and over. Defensive errors, lack of precision in front of goal, missed assignments in the midfield, lack of pressure on the opponents up high which leads to excessive pressure on our leaky defence.

The errors seem like they are part of our system. They are part of what is going to happen to us. Koevs being out of shape means he's more tired than he should be, which means he's not as sharp and precise, which is the difference between a goal and a miss. Frings is frustrated and that affects concentration. Our defenders stand there and watch players score. Our passing is imprecise and our positioning is off.

A lot of these things are down to coaching. Yes there is some individual responsibility, no question, but that's something that happens on occasion, not every damn game. This goes deeper than that. Either that, or we are the least professional, most error-prone team I've seen in a long time. I just don't buy that our players are that poor mentally. And if they are, who put this team of losers together?

[Oldtimer]

And yet it makes little sense to assume the Mexican teams, who would very much like to win the competition (which did have a hefty prize sum), would then field their B team. I am going to challenge you on that and say that Mexican teams did NOT field their B teams. Since your position is that they did, I look forward to seeing your provide evidence that they did not field competitive teams in the Superliga despite your additional assertion that they did want the prize money. There is a disconnect there that I hope you address.


I actually followed the tournament while most here laughed it off.

Supporters said for years that Mexican sides weren't fielding their best. One thread from 2009:


Superliga is a joke. They should change the tournament format, or get rid of it entirely. Having the not quite good 4 compete against reserve and u-18 teams from Mexico is a sham for the people who paid for this event.

http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/mls-superliga-adding-to-the-sum-4499#comment-10083


I’ve seen quite a few posts in agreement about the strengths of of the teams that are participating. I must agree regarding the non-MLS teams. But I do like the idea of our ’2nd tier’ teams playing international club competitions. There are a few interesting suggestions to make this a better tourney out in the soccersphere.

To date I have shied away from putting forth any prospective changes, as my focus has been on how this is a cash cow for SUM.



http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/mls-superliga-adding-to-the-sum-4499#comment-10084


Superliga is entertainment. It is a cash cow for MLS and we should attach no great importance to any result. No one should claim any superiority of one league over the other as a result of Superliga wins and or defeats. Believe me I would love to since my Fire are undefeated but even I can not claim superiority. Now last years friendly win over Everton is another case!

http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/mls-superliga-adding-to-the-sum-4499#comment-10085

[trane]

I guess you do deny it. Cool story bro.

No bro denial is your game. I am very aware what the word uncompetitive means and that word is TFC in the past 7 games, 7 games in which they are unable to compete just as the goal differential and the result clearly indicate.

That is the reality, not matter how you would cut it. Sure there are some positives but result are what they are.

[Canary10]

Ideally you should be looking at ALL candidates, not at guys handpicked by Jurgen Klinsmann.

I'm just asking for an EXPERIENCED coach who can work with the roster that TFC has. Like trane says, and I agree, there are pieces in place on the roster that should make the team more competitive. I figured the team was good enough to squeak into the playoffs but at this juncture the playoffs are already a distant memory.

And if you think things are bad now, wait until the team is a) knocked out of the Voyageurs Cup and b) out of the playoffs. Will Winter be able to motivate a squad that has, in reality, nothing to play for but pride? Winter doesn't seem like that kind of motivator.

I'm passed the point of defending Winter. But I want to keep the kind of play he's developed. I hope we can find a manager who is better on the implementation side.

I'll add one more time that this is not a bad team and we've been a whisker away from getting results in more than half the games we've played. Judging by the RSL boards, we won a lot of converts there Saturday night for the way we played. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Roogsy]

The other points I am not going to argue with you as this will end up like the Dero argument....

That being said as a support you should stick with your club no matter what. When Napoli was relegated to Serie C2 they still had their fans, in Serie B they were averaging 60,000 fans and now they are back in Serie A. Look at Leeds they were left for dead due to bad financial management they now average over 30,000 and they are now in the Championship and there is countless other examples around the world. Did any of these fans walk away and give up?

My point being if you support your team it should be through thick and thin no matter what. If people don't like it then leave it is not about a martyr or any bullshit like that. I want our team to win more than almost anything, but I will not give up on them.

Thus, the ultimate conclusion is that if I want Winter gone, I am giving up on the team?

I am still not following your logic here.

You are presenting what is called a "strawman" argument. Claiming your opposition of making a point they actually did not make. If the Winter-bashers want him gone, how exactly is that giving up on the team? What does one point have to do with another? Have I given up my tickets? Did I stop watching the games? Have I stopped going to games? What is there to support your claim that those that want Winter gone are not "supporting" their team?

Tell me, when Napoli were relegated, did they keep their coach? It's interesting that you raise Napoli as an example when I do believe I remember supporters (or should I even bother calling them that?) demanding the manager's dismissal after poor results (I believe it was 11th on the table...ELEVENTH!!!) and he was fired in March of 2009 according to Wikipedia. And then Donadoni was sacked WEEKS into the next season, having barely lasted 6 months!!! Are you telling me the supporters of Napoli were quiet and did not influence ownership's decision to make these changes? (I guess they aren't real supporters.) And I guess the replacement of Donadoni was a poor decision as well because the team didn't do better after that right?



Right?

[trane]

It just boggles my mind that our players keep making the same dumb mistakes over and over. Defensive errors, lack of precision in front of goal, missed assignments in the midfield, lack of pressure on the opponents up high which leads to excessive pressure on our leaky defence.

The errors seem like they are part of our system. They are part of what is going to happen to us. Koevs being out of shape means he's more tired than he should be, which means he's not as sharp and precise, which is the difference between a goal and a miss. Frings is frustrated and that affects concentration. Our defenders stand there and watch players score. Our passing is imprecise and our positioning is off.

A lot of these things are down to coaching. Yes there is some individual responsibility, no question, but that's something that happens on occasion, not every damn game. This goes deeper than that. Either that, or we are the least professional, most error-prone team I've seen in a long time. I just don't buy that our players are that poor mentally. And if they are, who put this team of losers together?

I think Ryan's argument, the players are competitive on an individual basis, but it is their fault that we are losing. Lumpy, thinks this is great logic.

[trane]

Thus, the ultimate conclusion is that if I want Winter gone, I am giving up on the team?

I am still not following your logic here.

You are presenting what is called a "strawman" argument. Claiming your opposition of making a point they actually did not make. If the Winter-bashers want him gone, how exactly is that giving up on the team? What does one point have to do with another? Have I given up my tickets? Did I stop watching the games? Have I stopped going to games? What is there to support your claim that those that want Winter gone are not "supporting" their team?

Tell me, when Napoli were relegated, did they keep their coach? It's interesting that you raise Napoli as an example when I do believe I remember supporters (or should I even bother calling them that?) demanding the manager's dismissal after poor results (I believe it was 11th on the table...ELEVENTH!!!) and he was fired in March of 2009 according to Wikipedia. And then Donadoni was sacked WEEKS into the next season, having barely lasted 6 months!!! Are you telling me the supporters of Napoli were quiet and did not influence ownership's decision to make these changes? (I guess they aren't real supporters.) And I guess the replacement of Donadoni was a poor decision as well because the team didn't do better after that right?



Right?

hahahhahahhahah. I missed that part. Napoli supproters quite??????? Hahahahahahhahha. Oh my god that is funny.

[Roogsy]

I actually followed the tournament while most here laughed it off.

Supporters said for years that Mexican sides weren't fielding their best. One thread from 2009:



http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/mls-superliga-adding-to-the-sum-4499#comment-10083



http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/mls-superliga-adding-to-the-sum-4499#comment-10084



http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/mls-superliga-adding-to-the-sum-4499#comment-10085

You're using board chatter to support your point? Come on OT!

[Lumpy]

True wisdom comes to each of us when we realize how little we understand about life, ourselves, and the world around us.

Socrates

[ryan]

It just boggles my mind that our players keep making the same dumb mistakes over and over. Defensive errors, lack of precision in front of goal, missed assignments in the midfield, lack of pressure on the opponents up high which leads to excessive pressure on our leaky defence.

The errors seem like they are part of our system. They are part of what is going to happen to us. Koevs being out of shape means he's more tired than he should be, which means he's not as sharp and precise, which is the difference between a goal and a miss. Frings is frustrated and that affects concentration. Our defenders stand there and watch players score. Our passing is imprecise and our positioning is off.

A lot of these things are down to coaching. Yes there is some individual responsibility, no question, but that's something that happens on occasion, not every damn game. This goes deeper than that. Either that, or we are the least professional, most error-prone team I've seen in a long time. I just don't buy that our players are that poor mentally. And if they are, who put this team of losers together?


Much of this MF issue can be tied to Dunfield and JDG. There's NOTHING Winter/Mariner can do about JDG. Nothing. Perhaps with the health finally returning to CB's that we have, Frings can play with JDG and we can remove Dunfield at least from this problem. You can't have two fuds playing DM, but we really haven't had much of a choice now have we? We don't have much depth at DM, but who's fault is that? Winter's?

How do you put Frings errors on coaching? Does a player of his pedigree require coaching to not make such a mistake? After all that he's been through in his career?

I believe a coach's job is to get players in position to succeed and to motivate. Those players are trying, they are in position to succeed....they've just narrowly missed more times than I care to count. We're inches away from about 10 more goals. I don't put that on coaching.

[trane]

hahahhahahhahah. I missed that part. Napoli supproters quite??????? Hahahahahahhahha. Oh my god that is funny.


They are about as quite as Genoa supporters, even more quite. hahahahhaa. I love when people bring up Italian tifosi, too support their argument that we should be quite.

Yes, tell me about being a tifoso, please. teach me.

[Beach_Red]

Thanks for the condesending bullshit...

I have a question how long will the new manager have then?

How long is the wrong measurement, it isn't about time it's about wins. The question is, how many losses will the new manager get?

[trane]

True wisdom comes to each of us when we realize how little we understand about life, ourselves, and the world around us.

Socrates


If wisdom is measured by the lack of understanding you are wisdom in personafide.

[trane]

How long is the wrong measurement, it isn't about time it's about wins. The question is, how many losses will the new manager get?

I say fire him after the first loss. In fact do not fire him, OFF WITH HIS HEAD.

[Lumpy]

Replacing coaches every year or two will doom Toronto. The LA Clippers of the NBA tried that route for 16 years and never made the playoffs. This story will repeat itself with Toronto and the MLS if coaches are shuffled eveytime things aren't going well.

[trane]

^ That is exactly what we are saying replace a coach every year or two, in fact replace the coach twice a season. No matter what the record. You got it Lumpy. That is what we believe.


THE MOTTO SHOULD BE INSTABILITY IS THE ROAD TO VICTORY.

[Lumpy]

If wisdom is measured by the lack of understanding you are wisdom in personafide.

Now now little one let's play nice.

[Jack]

My point being if you support your team it should be through thick and thin no matter what. If people don't like it then leave it is not about a martyr or any bullshit like that. I want our team to win more than almost anything, but I will not give up on them.
By calling for Winter to step aside, many believe we are supporting their team. By demanding our team work toward being successful, many believe we are supporting our team. By asking the best of the players, the management, the ownership and the support, many believe we are supporting our team.

I support TFC, thick and thin. The individual names come and go and, if they aren't supporting TFC, then they need to go.

If Winter stays, turns this around and delivers on his playoff promise, then I will be the first to admit I was wrong. ExiledRed will wear an Everton jersey and a dress (or something like that, need to find the post).

The problem that I am reading here is the perception that, because someone wants the team to do well and is angry at what appear to be repeated blunders at an ownership and management level, that we are not supporting our team.

That, my friend, is completely untrue.

[trane]

Now now little one let's play nice.

Oh wise one, I guess you never met me in person.

[Beach_Red]

If back when MLS first gave a franchise to MLSE they had hired a consultant then and been given this plan chances are the team would be successful by now (everyone seems to agree the idea is good). But, of course, they didn't. So now we're in this mess and have frittered away a lot of the luxuries that came with being new.

Now we have to play catch up to every other team in the league - even the ones that joined after we did. What's the line we hear all the time? Oh yeah, 'tis a pity.

But it's unlikely we'll see any significant change with this team until we get some proper leadership. It's a top-down attitude problem with the team that passes the buck from GM to coach to players and back again. We never know if a player was cut in pre-season because he wasn't good enough or if he chose not to be here. there's no management pyramid with this team, everything goes in circles.

[Jack]

With Anselmi and Beirne laughing all the way to the bank...

[trane]

I know Bayern Munich supporters would never, ever, ever, be critical of their managers. Hence the champion league final.

[Section 117]

By calling for Winter to step aside, many believe we are supporting their team. By demanding our team work toward being successful, many believe we are supporting our team. By asking the best of the players, the management, the ownership and the support, many believe we are supporting our team.

I support TFC, thick and thin. The individual names come and go and, if they aren't supporting TFC, then they need to go.

If Winter stays, turns this around and delivers on his playoff promise, then I will be the first to admit I was wrong. ExiledRed will wear an Everton jersey and a dress (or something like that, need to find the post).

The problem that I am reading here is the perception that, because someone wants the team to do well and is angry at what appear to be repeated blunders at an ownership and management level, that we are not supporting our team.

That, my friend, is completely untrue.

That is not my point Jack....

My problem is that it is all of TFC's problem is down to management and nothing else. Why don't the players take blame for anything.. It was like the Dero thread. He was credited for all of victories and absolved of any responsibility when we lost.

If the FO fire Winter, Mariner must go as well that is my point. Bottom line.

[Section 117]

Trane what ever I bow down to your experties on world football as you are the be all end all.

My point was the fans were there through thick and thin that is all and never left....

That is all

[Roogsy]

I have always viewed criticism, especially when a team is screwing up as much as TFC is, as not only a part of supporting a club, but the most important part.

Cheering is easy. Cheering when the team is doing well is VERY easy. But forcing change at a club, forcing a money-grubbing organization to recognize the needs to give the fans and supporters that which they deserve, forcing them to treat the club more than simply a money-making factory...well that is much harder.

If a supporter is not engaged on that side of the equation, then I am sorry, my personal opinion (not trying to be insulting or instigate anything here) is that you are not a supporter, you are a cheerleader. And that is perfectly alright. We all have our roles. But then questioning my support is unacceptable. Because my activity, as unappealing as it is to you, helps bring more productive change at the club than cheering for and accepting the status quo.

[Roogsy]

Trane what ever I bow down to your experties on world football as you are the be all end all.

My point was the fans were there through thick and thin that is all and never left....

That is all

Except you have equated fan discontent with not being supporters and then stunningly cited Napoli supporters as an example. Napoli supporters who are incredibly vocal both in their approval and discontent. Again, there is a disconnect between your opinion and the facts.

[ExiledRed]

Replacing coaches every year or two will doom Toronto. The LA Clippers of the NBA tried that route for 16 years and never made the playoffs. This story will repeat itself with Toronto and the MLS if coaches are shuffled eveytime things aren't going well.

you say everytime things arent going well as if theve ever gone right.

Look, if I keep replacing the engine of my car with an inferior engine, what will be the final result?

[tfcleeds]

Winter wouldn't have lasted a month at Napoli, so not sure why Napoli is even being used as a comparison.

[Lumpy]

you say everytime things arent going well as if theve ever gone right.

Look, if I keep replacing the engine of my car with an inferior engine, what will be the final result?

A lot of times when you replace an engine the transmission screws up a short while later.

[Beach_Red]

A lot of times when you replace an engine the transmission screws up a short while later.

You know, it's likely everyone agrees with the theory that replacing coaches too often is bad. What we're dealing with here is the reality that the team is 0-7 and is coming off a losing record last year as well.

This is about this specific coach in this specific situation. When he says, "We will make the playoffs," and nothing else and thenj goes out and loses the next game we have to wonder what his plan is. After all of last season and the start to this season we have to wonder how he plans to win so many more games this year to get into the playoffs. He hasn't been able to exploit the weaknesses in any other teams so far this year so if he could give an indication about why that's going to change, it would be nice.

Because otherwise all we're getting is, "trust me," and we're wondering why we should. If all he can fall back on is this idea that we've changed coaches too often in the past that's not the ideal way to support your employment, is it?

[ExiledRed]

A lot of times when you replace an engine the transmission screws up a short while later.

A lot of times if you dont replace the engine, you may as well scrap the whole car.

[trane]

Trane what ever I bow down to your experties on world football as you are the be all end all.

My point was the fans were there through thick and thin that is all and never left....

That is all

I do not claim to have expertise about world football, but I grew up in Italy, I grew up a tifoso, when people use examples of how supporters behave in the culture of support that I grew up in and am a product off, then I have to laugh. Particularly when you see evidence of the opposite year after year, Genoa being just the latest, but even great clubs like Juve have gone through it recently, both coaches and fan protests.

[ExiledRed]

I do not claim to have expertise about world football, but I grew up in Italy, I grew up a tifoso, when people use examples of how supporters behave in the culture of support that I grew up in and am a product off, then I have to laugh. Particularly when you see evidence of the opposite year after year, Genoa being just the latest, but even great clubs like Juve have gone through it recently, both coaches and fan protests.

It is very annoying. On this board and in the stands there is a LOT of experience with supporting large teams in other countries.

You have to sit here and watch the inexperienced (not naming anybody here) pore through wikipedia and come up with tidbits from across the globe to support their arguments and agendas, and when you challenge that with 'I was actually there' you are called a snob.

[Oldtimer]

You're using board chatter to support your point? Come on OT!

Yes, everyone who paid any attention was saying that the Mexican squads were the B/youth/reserve sides. NE only had to beat 1 first team along the way.... I can't remember which one. Oh wait, Google is my friend :D : From 2009:


Mexican clubs have shown their indifference through their level of participation in this year's tournament. Two qualifiers (Chivas and UNAM) opted out of the tournament. Three of the four Mexican teams who accepted bids heavily relied on reserve and youth team players as group play opened this weekend. Tigres even sent its first team players to play a friendly against Universidad de Guadalajara on Saturday night while playing its reserves against Chivas USA.

Perhaps those three teams wanted to avoid what happened to the only Mexican side that played its first team regulars: Santos Laguna lost to a battered New England side 4-2 on a sopping wet night outside Boston. Hungry reserve team players won't substantively hurt the competition on the field, but persistently diminished rosters could cause public relations problems regarding the sanctity of the competition in the future.


http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2009/06/22/1340564/monday-mls-breakdown-superliga-finds-its-place

So it's an accomplishment of Sorts. Santos was 9th in Mexico for Clausura 2009. Beating them in a single match in the US was worth something. I like Nicol, I think he's a decent coach. He might be a good coach for TFC (I even said so once in the past). I'm not sure that I'm not sure that he can turn things around in 1/2 a season or that firing Rongen and rebooting the academy is the way to go (which is what my initial post was about).

[ExiledRed]

Oh wait, Google is my friend :D

Certainly seems that way.

I only extend friendship to the reliable myself.

[Roogsy]

Mexican teams fielding B squads in the beginning stages of the competition is nothing new, nor is it new in the current Concacaf Champions League OT. They can do it (and still do!) because they still get through.

But in the semis or the finals, the Mexican squads field full strenght, or at the very least near full strength squads. When that million-dollar prize was within reach, believe me, they didn't take any chances. And I too was paying attention as both you and I were following DC United.

[Whoop]

Who among the "fire Winter" crowd is saying reboot the academy? Scrap it?

I haven't seen one post from those who are advocating making a change suggesting that.

In fact I would argue most would be saying leave the academy alone.

[ExiledRed]

I like Nicol, I think he's a decent coach. He might be a good coach for TFC (I even said so once in the past). I'm not sure that he can turn things around in 1/2 a season or that firing Rongen and rebooting the academy is the way to go (which is what my initial post was about).

He is the most likely candidate to turn things around in 1/2 a season. Guarantees are impossible in this sport.

Thomas Rongen neednt go anywhere, Steve Nicol is very very experienced and would probably view having Rongen running the academy as a huge upgrade over what he had at the revs.

[Roogsy]

Maybe I should just for shits and giggles? LOL!

Ah hell....let's scrap the Academy!

[Roogsy]

He is the most likely candidate to turn things around in 1/2 a season. Guarantees are impossible in this sport.

Thomas Rongen neednt go anywhere, Steve Nicol is very very experienced and would probably view having Rongen running the academy as a huge upgrade over what he had at the revs.

Let me just reaffirm that I am not advocating Nicol as the ONLY choice, just A choice. And I think a good one.

Imagine what he could have done with the Revs had he been given MLSE's resources? We blast him for not winning the MLS Cup, but I again reiterate...do we really have to itemize what it TAKES to get to the MLS Cup? Four times? I can't fault TFC fans for not knowing...we haven't been in a single playoff series yet. LOL!

[Whoop]

Question:

How many coaches were interviewed by Klinsmann when looking for a coach?

How many coaches were interviewed when TFC hired MoJo?

How many coaches were interviewed when Carver was hired? Preki?

Has TFC ever done an exhaustive search for a coach at all?

All I'm asking for is someone to do that...

[ExiledRed]

Let me just reaffirm that I am not advocating Nicol as the ONLY choice, just A choice. And I think a good one.

Imagine what he could have done with the Revs had he been given MLSE's resources? We blast him for not winning the MLS Cup, but I again reiterate...do we really have to itemize what it TAKES to get to the MLS Cup? Four times? I can't fault TFC fans for not knowing...we haven't been in a single playoff series yet. LOL!

Also people forget that failure is rewarded in this league and successful teams are practically 'nerfed'. As Nicol's team rarely finished out the top 4 they got practically zero allocation and low picks.
Given that the rest of the league started buying DPs, and upgrading their resources while Kraft remained indifferent. The points decline at least has some context.

[Oldtimer]

Question:

How many coaches were interviewed by Klinsmann when looking for a coach?

How many coaches were interviewed when TFC hired MoJo?


It was rumoured that there were 3 coaches interviewed by TFC when they hired MoJo, no idea if it's really true.

As far as Klinnsman goes, I wish I could see his list. For all we know, he could have recommended 20 people and Winter was #20.

[tfcleeds]

It's modern day Toronto sports fandom. Everyone turns into a comedian to slag our franchises, nobody wants to give them credit for any success they do have. Where's the opportunity to be a smug arsehole then? That's no fun right? I think people prefer to lose just to satisfy their desires to make such commentary because they don't have much to say when the team's do find success.I certainly don't enjoy seeing this club lose. I have a much more vested interest in TFC personally than a lot of the other Toronto clubs - I want to see this club succeed, and it is downright pitiful what we have had to endure the last 5 and a bit seasons. Yes, we have had bits of success here and there, and I have celebrated those as much as any fervent supporter. But those brief moments can't overshadow the absolute shitshow this team has been in MLS during it's existence. We had something really special going on, and TFC could have been something special on the Toronto sports scene. Unfortunately, I believe we have missed that opportunity, and it may never come back now, due to the FO's emphasis on short-term profits and bandaid solutions that are made with a view to squeezing every last dollar out of the fans, rather than building long-term success on the field.

[Oldtimer]

Certainly seems that way.

I only extend friendship to the reliable myself.

At least I don't have to rely on youtube videos to remember games I supposedly saw, where amazing goals were supposedly done, only to find out the amazing goal never happened. ;)

[ag futbol]

Sorry on mobile so didn't wade though the first four pages completely... But wouldn't sasho cirovski be more logical than porter given his Gta connection?

All I know is that this will be an expensive hire, since our reputation is in tatters and your asking a college coach with an extremely stable position to jump on the crazy-train.

[ExiledRed]

At least I don't have to rely on youtube videos to remember games I supposedly saw, where amazing goals were supposedly done, only to find out the amazing goal never happened. ;)

You're funny. The fact that I remembered Strachan's attempt on goal while watching the Cup Winners Cup Final in 1983, at the age of 11, should tell you something.

Sure it wasnt a goal, and i seemed to remember it was. At least I had some recollection of what I was talkijng about (Sir Alex Ferguson's Aberdeen) while you were just trimming stats from wikipedia, and once again misrepresenting opinion as facts.

[Canary10]

Sorry on mobile so didn't wade though the first four pages completely... But wouldn't sasho cirovski be more logical than porter given his Gta connection?

All I know is that this will be an expensive hire, since our reputation is in tatters and your asking a college coach with an extremely stable position to jump on the crazy-train.

Yeah, that's all true. High risk, high reward though. It's not that bad a situation for him to come into. He has a very good core of players (despite what some on this board say). A team philsophy very conistent to his own. MLSE will probably pay the money. Cirovski might be another thought though.

[trane]

It is very annoying. On this board and in the stands there is a LOT of experience with supporting large teams in other countries.

You have to sit here and watch the inexperienced (not naming anybody here) pore through wikipedia and come up with tidbits from across the globe to support their arguments and agendas, and when you challenge that with 'I was actually there' you are called a snob.

Amen. After six years, it is getting very old.

[Whoop]

I still remember watching the 1984 European Cup final between Roma and Liverpool even though I was 8 and wasn't a fan of either team.

I don't remember if it was called CHIN TV or CFMT but I remember watching it go to kicks.

[Canary10]

I remember watching Graham Leggett on Soccer Saturday.

[Beach_Red]

Maybe I should just for shits and giggles? LOL!

Ah hell....let's scrap the Academy!


Well, to be honest, I don't care if they keep the academy or scrap it. As long as the league has a salary cap and an entry draft, how many players will it really produce to play on TFC? the very best will go to higher-paying leagues and we'll continue this endless debate about players only being here because of the domestic quota.

Besides, TFC isn't a club with deep ties to the community, it's for-profit, private enterprise franchise. It's run the same as a Tim Hortons or a McDonalds.

Maybe this academy model can work in soccer (but no other north American pro sport) but it'll still need to be modified to fit the system here.

And besides, what happens if attendance really falls off and TFC gets sold and moved to Atlanta or Orlando?

[Oldtimer]

You're funny. The fact that I remembered Strachan's attempt on goal while watching the Cup Winners Cup Final in 1983, at the age of 11, should tell you something.




I still remember watching the 1984 European Cup final between Roma and Liverpool even though I was 8 and wasn't a fan of either team.

I don't remember if it was called CHIN TV or CFMT but I remember watching it go to kicks.

I remember as a teen watching Pele play for the Cosmos , and saw him do a bicycle kick goal once. It was a lot more fun than watching TFC lose game after game.

[ensco]

Thanks for the condesending bullshit...

I have a question how long will the new manager have then?

You put up that post, what do you expect? You had it coming.

Re your question, it depends. A year at least ... We've got to keep trying until we get it right, I guess. not sure how else to look at it - the circumstances will always be different.

[Canary10]

You put up that post, what do you expect? You had it coming.

Re your question, it depends. A year at least ... We've got to keep trying until we get it right, I guess. not sure how else to look at it - the circumstances will always be different.

Maybe Roogsy can get on his spreadsheet and come up with a predictive model based on the past 6 years.

[Whoop]

BR, I think the academy is the way of the future. Even in other sports in NA there a number of private academies geared toward certain sports. The most famous at one point was Nick Bollettieri's tennis academy. (I believe IMG took over it... they definitely have their own academy.)

The only difference is that these academies aren't necessarily tied into one franchise. Like I've told friends anywhere where adults can make money off kids, they'll be academies. Even in Canada there are academies. Most under the guise of sports schools where parents pay 5 figured tuition on top of any other costs.

So academies aren't going anywhere.

And I don't think TFC is going anywhere either. I think it would get sold to other Toronto interests before it would move. Don Garber would make sure of that too. And I think there are people in Toronto who feel that if they were able to run TFC they could do a better job.

Problem is I don't see MLSE or Rogers/Bell selling TFC anytime soon either.

[prizby]

Pep Guardiola...or else, stick with Winter

[Beach_Red]

BR, I think the academy is the way of the future. Even in other sports in NA there a number of private academies geared toward certain sports. The most famous at one point was Nick Bollettieri's tennis academy. (I believe IMG took over it... they definitely have their own academy.)

The only difference is that these academies aren't necessarily tied into one franchise. Like I've told friends anywhere where adults can make money off kids, they'll be academies. Even in Canada there are academies. Most under the guise of sports schools where parents pay 5 figured tuition on top of any other costs.

So academies aren't going anywhere.

And I don't think TFC is going anywhere either. I think it would get sold to other Toronto interests before it would move. Don Garber would make sure of that too. And I think there are people in Toronto who feel that if they were able to run TFC they could do a better job.

Problem is I don't see MLSE or Rogers/Bell selling TFC anytime soon either.

Okay, you've convinced me the academies are going to be here - you haven't convinced me they're a good idea, just profitable ;).

[Whoop]

I think the rules in the future of the MLS will make it easier to promote academy kids. Those that aren't good enough will likely go to the NCAA route and then after spending there if they are any good they could, in theory, come back into the MLS pool.

Academies will be a source of "cheap labour" and the very elite ones will be sold off for profit to overseas teams.

Though in fairness to TFC, I don't think there is a cost factor to attending the TFC academy. However, they likely would have, or should have, strict requirements for promotion within the academy. And those that don't pass, get dropped. The same with any other academy in the world.

Difference with the private academies, if you're paying, you're likely still staying.

[Huyton]

I don't think replacing Rongen with Winter is blowing it all up. I think, in many ways, that getting rid of Rongen and replacing him with Winter might play more to Winters strengths, and allow TFC to benefit from his experience. I also have no problem with Rongen staying and Winter moving on. Rongens record with youth teams seems pretty good.

I'm more concerned with the first team at the moment, and one of the great combinations of personnel in MLS's short history - Mariner and Nicol - could be ours.

What evidence do I have that Nicol could do better under MLSE? None. But nobody has been able to succeed at MLSE (in any sport?). So you have to go by history, and Nicols record in MLS is considerably better than Rongens.

Nicols record with New England is
2002........10........10..........1 MLS Cup finalist (they were 2 4 1 when Nicol took over).
2003........12..........9..........9
2004..........8........13..........9
2005........17..........7..........8 MLS Cup Finalist
2006........12..........8........12 MLS Cup Finalist
2007........14..........8..........8 MLS Cup Finalist, US Open Cup winners
2008........12........11..........7 Super Liga Champions
2009........11........10..........9
2010.........9........16...........5 Super Liga Finalists
2011.........5........16.......... 13
Total.....110.......106..........81

Of the four MLS Cups they played in, New England lost two in extra time and a third on Penalty kicks. The fourth was lost 2-1. He only missed the playoffs twice, and in one of those years they were SuperLiga Finalists. It should also be noted that they were involved in 4 competitions in 2008: MLS, US Open Cup, SuperLiga and CONCACAF Champions League.


Rongen
2005........1..........8........1 Chivas)
2001........8........16........2 DC United
2000........8........18........6 DC United
1999......17..........9........9 DC United MLS Cup winners
1998........9........17........6 New England
1997.......11.......17........4 New England
1996.......19.......12........1 Tampa Bay MLS Cup Winners
Total.......73.......97......29

The last time that Rongen had a mens team (rather than a University or U-20 national team) was in 2005 with Chivas: won 1, drawn 1, lost 8. Of the seven seasons he's been in charge of an MLS side, he's had 2 seasons where he won more than he lost. He inherited the DC United team from Bruce Arena, taking over in 1999. How good were DC United in 1998? They were MLS Cup runners up, Supporters Shield Runners up, CONCACAF Champions Cup winners and Interamericana Cup winners. You can see how they did in 2000 and 2001 when they were Rongens team.


Some of these stats are difficult to put together because in the early years of MLS they had the NASL style 35 yard line shoot-out to decide games that were tied after full time. Wherever possible, I've removed Shoot-out Wins and Losses and made them Draws. In 1996 and 1997, though, that wasn't quite possible as I had only Shoot Out Wins to go by.




So...would I want to rip it all apart? If removing Winter from first team duties and replacing him with Nicol is ripping it apart, then yes...guilty as charged.

The Academy is important for long term growth, as Academy graduates don't count against the cap, and the more of them you have, the more you can spend on top quality MLS players and DP's to fill in the holes. This is clearly the way forward and the way to establish a team as an MLS power.

Who is the best guy for the Academy? Well, Winter has intimate knowledge of one of the best football talent factories on the planet. It would be dumb not to try to take advantage of his expertise. Rongen has worked with a lot of youth teams, but most of his recent experience has been with the more elite, national team level...not the day to day stuff. I'd argue that Winter should be the choice here, but he'd see taking over the academy to be a demotion.

For the Mens team, though, the Mariner/Nicol combination is a mouth-wating possibility.

Do I want to "go back" to 4-4-2, or keep 4-3-3 or 4-1-3-1-1? No...what I want is the formation that gets the most out of the players we have, and I don't think that Winter is capable of that. He knows 4-3-3, so that's what he plays. If we want to keep bringing in more players that know (acquired, traded for or developed), and thrive, in 4-3-3, then fine.

But we're not there yet, and Winters stubborn refusal (to be charitable), or inability, is destroying any team chemistry that may have been developing after the CCL run.

[Roogsy]

Maybe Roogsy can get on his spreadsheet and come up with a predictive model based on the past 6 years.

I like! :thumbsup:

[ag futbol]

Maybe not a "one year plan coach" but how about one that's able to show improvement in year two compared to year one? I think that's a reasonable expectation.

[ExiledRed]

Maybe not a "one year plan coach" but how about one that's able to show improvement in year two compared to year one? I think that's a reasonable expectation.

This is just it.

It cannot be denied that after fifteen months the team is worse than it was when he took over.

We talk about how we had to lose our top-scorers for the benefit of the 'system' and how their replacements are much more suitable and on and on...

So why is the team worse than it was?

[TO DEVILS]

My 2 cents is that the currently academy system is flawed and will never produce the same results academies in europe do.
The current system needs to be upgraded to a more hybrid model that offers players not only a chance to become professional soccer players but also get an education.

The current academy system promotes the players that aren't good enough to go elsewhere why losing the ones they should be desperately seeking to retain.
We need to be realistic and objective when looking at the Academy, if you have an above average player the chances are his agent is receiving offers from other clubs, or the player could be even thinking of a future scholarship in the US. So the question anybody in TFCA should be asking is Why should a player stay with us instead of going elsewhere.

The answer should be a realistic one, we are a new franchise, with a horrible professional track record, owned by an organization that has built itself on money, business but not athletic victories or titles. We are not an historic club like Barcelona, we don't have an academy track record like Sporting or Ajax, and we don't provide the young athletes with an all around environment that would allow them to grow as players but also as young men.

So what can we do to be at least if not the first choice a considerable 2nd viable option for young soccer players?

I think you need a program that not only provides soccer training and development but also an Academic future for the young kids.

Understand that the cream of the crop will always chose greener pastures, there is nothing you can do. If you have a Messiesque type player in your Academy the chances are he will have people knocking his door down and he will go elsehwere. That is fine. We are in the MLS, we need to be realistic about what we can achieve and what we can offer. But if we can hold on to players that may not be Grade A, but are a solid B+ or B, these players could one day be a valuable TFC senior player, and that would create a solid track record for others to follow.

So i think the model needs to incorporate a "scholarship" + "housing" for the athletes picked as Academy players. If i am a parent of an upcoming player, i want my son to get an education first and foremost, the soccer career is a dream, that could easily be short lived leaving you with nothing but stories of your glory days.
Partner up with 2-3 high schools, and one university. Offer the players a schooling program in partnership with the athletic program. not only for the kids a free education while playing for you, but also create a program with the schools that allows the kids to go to school while spending the maximum amount of hours on the field as possible.

Have transportation from the residence program to the schools and pick up from the school back to the training grounds. A complete marriage between the two, i would say a step above what NCAA does.

Only something of this magnitude will show real results, because right now, the ones worth keeping will leave and the ones we keep aren't worth keeping.

[Canary10]

This is just it.

It cannot be denied that after fifteen months the team is worse than it was when he took over.

We talk about how we had to lose our top-scorers for the benefit of the 'system' and how their replacements are much more suitable and on and on...

So why is the team worse than it was?

Sadly, this is the best team we've had in the six years. We just don't have the wins to show it, but we're a better team than anything that's come before.

[Jack]

My 2 cents is that the currently academy system is flawed and will never produce the same results academies in europe do.
The current system needs to be upgraded to a more hybrid model that offers players not only a chance to become professional soccer players but also get an education.

The current academy system promotes the players that aren't good enough to go elsewhere why losing the ones they should be desperately seeking to retain.
We need to be realistic and objective when looking at the Academy, if you have an above average player the chances are his agent is receiving offers from other clubs, or the player could be even thinking of a future scholarship in the US. So the question anybody in TFCA should be asking is Why should a player stay with us instead of going elsewhere.

The answer should be a realistic one, we are a new franchise, with a horrible professional track record, owned by an organization that has built itself on money, business but not athletic victories or titles. We are not an historic club like Barcelona, we don't have an academy track record like Sporting or Ajax, and we don't provide the young athletes with an all around environment that would allow them to grow as players but also as young men.

So what can we do to be at least if not the first choice a considerable 2nd viable option for young soccer players?

I think you need a program that not only provides soccer training and development but also an Academic future for the young kids.

Understand that the cream of the crop will always chose greener pastures, there is nothing you can do. If you have a Messiesque type player in your Academy the chances are he will have people knocking his door down and he will go elsehwere. That is fine. We are in the MLS, we need to be realistic about what we can achieve and what we can offer. But if we can hold on to players that may not be Grade A, but are a solid B+ or B, these players could one day be a valuable TFC senior player, and that would create a solid track record for others to follow.

So i think the model needs to incorporate a "scholarship" + "housing" for the athletes picked as Academy players. If i am a parent of an upcoming player, i want my son to get an education first and foremost, the soccer career is a dream, that could easily be short lived leaving you with nothing but stories of your glory days.
Partner up with 2-3 high schools, and one university. Offer the players a schooling program in partnership with the athletic program. not only for the kids a free education while playing for you, but also create a program with the schools that allows the kids to go to school while spending the maximum amount of hours on the field as possible.

Have transportation from the residence program to the schools and pick up from the school back to the training grounds. A complete marriage between the two, i would say a step above what NCAA does.

Only something of this magnitude will show real results, because right now, the ones worth keeping will leave and the ones we keep aren't worth keeping.
You've hit it pretty much bang on here.

[Roogsy]

Only something of this magnitude will show real results, because right now, the ones worth keeping will leave and the ones we keep aren't worth keeping.

It has been very frustrating watching the best prospects leave and having supporters say "good riddance!" without acknowledging the damage that does and how it is indicative of the struggles the academy will continue to have. It is especially ironic since the ones that have said "good riddance" are also the ones that usually point to the academy prospects as the most significant hope this team has to improve and yet they don't account for these issues and struggles. Right now, it will be a good decade before quality, impactful prospects hit the first team.

[Roogsy]

Sadly, this is the best team we've had in the six years. We just don't have the wins to show it, but we're a better team than anything that's come before.

If the standings don't show it, on what basis can anyone say this is the best team we've had?

Most expensive team? Yep.
Most underperforming team? You got it.
Most frustrating team? Sure.

And of course, the team with the 2nd worst record right after MoJo's expansion year. And even that position is tenuous. Keep up our current form and even MoJo's team will have better results than us.

So given all that, how can anyone say this is the "best team"? Based on what? And if they indeed are the best team "on paper" for example, then isn't that exactly the reason why the focus should be on Winter and HIS performance as a manager?

[ExiledRed]

The current academy system promotes the players that aren't good enough to go elsewhere why losing the ones they should be desperately seeking to retain.


The rest of your post was equally succint, but this was my favourite quote.

Had we not been able to increase the operational budget by millions following the Edu sale, this emphasis on the academy being the ultimate priority would not have happened.

Even if we were able to retain the potential superstars into the first team, theyd be gone in less than a season, and we'd get a roof, or more seats or something in return,

[v00d00daddy]

By calling for Winter to step aside, many believe we are supporting their team. By demanding our team work toward being successful, many believe we are supporting our team. By asking the best of the players, the management, the ownership and the support, many believe we are supporting our team.

I support TFC, thick and thin. The individual names come and go and, if they aren't supporting TFC, then they need to go.

If Winter stays, turns this around and delivers on his playoff promise, then I will be the first to admit I was wrong. ExiledRed will wear an Everton jersey and a dress (or something like that, need to find the post).

The problem that I am reading here is the perception that, because someone wants the team to do well and is angry at what appear to be repeated blunders at an ownership and management level, that we are not supporting our team.

That, my friend, is completely untrue.

I wholeheartedly agree.

The funny thing is...in seasons 2,3,4 when I'd had enough with the garbage we were seeing and voiced my displeasure about it, my level of support was questioned.

If only we could go back to the old boards to see who was casting stones back then.

My guess...there would be a few from back then that told me to fuck off and learn how to be a real supporter with the shoe on the other foot today.

To each their own. We just need to all remember how we've dealt with it in the past.

I wanted a team that would work towards playing attractive, possession based football from day one. From before this team had a name and I knew where my season seat was goin to be in the stadium that hadn't been built yet.

Now I have it and the growing pains are brutal. But this is like season 2 for me. That's the only reason I can stomach it.

Because the faint, misguided, maybe unattainable promise of good footy is enough to wash away 4+ years of garbage soccer that I watched week in and week out.

Many now know how I felt when we were watching Marvel Wynne hoof the ball around the park like a 10 year old.

It sucks...doesn't it? Lol

[Whoop]

It has been very frustrating watching the best prospects leave and having supporters say "good riddance!" without acknowledging the damage that does and how it is indicative of the struggles the academy will continue to have. It is especially ironic since the ones that have said "good riddance" are also the ones that usually point to the academy prospects as the most significant hope this team has to improve and yet they don't account for these issues and struggles. Right now, it will be a good decade before quality, impactful prospects hit the first team.

Exactly.

So why does firing Winter = scrapping the academy?

Odds are until the academy is producing significant contributors to the first team there will likely be 2-3 coaches come through that time as well.

[ExiledRed]

Sadly, this is the best team we've had in the six years. We just don't have the wins to show it, but we're a better team than anything that's come before.

Are you serious? we dont even have DRAWS to show it.

If this is really the best team weve ever had, with a 0-7 record then there should be no argument as to replacing the coach.

If prior coaches could get stronger results from worse teams, what does this tell you?

[Canary10]

If the standings don't show it, on what basis can anyone say this is the best team we've had?

Most expensive team? Yep.
Most underperforming team? You got it.
Most frustrating team? Sure.

And of course, the team with the 2nd worst record right after MoJo's expansion year. And even that position is tenuous. Keep up our current form and even MoJo's team will have better results than us.

So given all that, how can anyone say this is the "best team"? Based on what? And if they indeed are the best team "on paper" for example, then isn't that exactly the reason why the focus should be on Winter and HIS performance as a manager?

Absolutement. Do you see me defending him anymore? I think we need to stop with the fiction that this is a bad team. Anyone that's played against us know it's a good team. Real Salt Lake fans were saying after Saturday that TFC are very good team, not fitting of the current record, and appreciated a team actually giving them a game at Rio Tinto. That is all to say whoever comes in has a good base to work with.

[Canary10]

Are you serious? we dont even have DRAWS to show it.

If this is really the best team weve ever had, with a 0-7 record then there should be no argument as to replacing the coach.

If prior coaches could get stronger results from worse teams, what does this tell you?

If you guys want to shit all over our players go right ahead. We have a good team here. Most people know it. Hopefully a change of manager will get the results the boys deserve.

[Cashcleaner]

Yes, if he starts a season 0-7 and doesn't come anywhere close to making the playoffs or redirecting the team in a positive direction, absolutely we'll hang him just as fast. As we should.

THIS.

I'm getting really annoyed with the people saying shit like: "Oh, well all the Winter critics are hypocrites now after saying they would give him a season or two to get the club in order".

Because it should be pretty fucking obvious that when people made those remarks last year, NOBODY could ever have imagined that we'd be 0 for 7 at the start of the 2012 season with 16 goals against. The whole "one or two seasons" was based on the belief that we'd at least be playing competitively (ie: at least winning a couple games or earning some draws here and there).

The fact that we're not going to make the playoffs isn't what's frustrating everyone. It's the fact that we've yet to pick up even one fucking point by now - and you'd better believe that is legitimate grounds to criticize the manager (and others).

[Roogsy]

I wholeheartedly agree.

The funny thing is...in seasons 2,3,4 when I'd had enough with the garbage we were seeing and voiced my displeasure about it, my level of support was questioned.

If only we could go back to the old boards to see who was casting stones back then.

My guess...there would be a few from back then that told me to fuck off and learn how to be a real supporter with the shoe on the other foot today.

To each their own. We just need to all remember how we've dealt with it in the past.

I wanted a team that would work towards playing attractive, possession based football from day one. From before this team had a name and I knew where my season seat was goin to be in the stadium that hadn't been built yet.

Now I have it and the growing pains are brutal. But this is like season 2 for me. That's the only reason I can stomach it.

Because the faint, misguided, maybe unattainable promise of good footy is enough to wash away 4+ years of garbage soccer that I watched week in and week out.

Many now know how I felt when we were watching Marvel Wynne hoof the ball around the park like a 10 year old.

It sucks...doesn't it? Lol

I believe this is called Schadenfreude! :lol:

[Whoop]

If the team was 3-3 or even 2-5, I could live with moral victories.

Problem is the team is 0-7, soon to be 0-8 and likely to be knocked out of the Voyageurs Cup if not by Montreal, likely by Vancouver.

[Whoop]

If you guys want to shit all over our players go right ahead. We have a good team here. Most people know it. Hopefully a change of manager will get the results the boys deserve.

And I think that's what a lot of people are saying.

[Roogsy]

The fact that we're not going to make the playoffs isn't what's frustrating everyone. It's the fact that we've yet to pick up even one fucking point by now - and you'd better believe that is legitimate grounds to criticize the manager (and others).

Look at the Calendar. It will be May 5 before we have another chance to pick up points in the league, and to do so we have to face an in-form DC team and I am guessing a motivated DeRo. I haven't written off our chances against DC because dammit, we have to pick up points sometime soon right? Why not May 5? But the fact that it will be "Cinco de Mayo" before we may pick up our first points of the season, with well over 20% of the season in the books should be dismaying to us all. I genuinely find it shocking more people are not in arms about that.

[Canary10]

And I think that's what a lot of people are saying.

Some are saying otherwise. It's just false to say the team is bad. They've played with and beaten the best teams in the league, and in the continent. That's saying a lot. I'm on board with the change, so don't paint me as wanting to keep Winter on by me saying the team is good. The disconnect between the results and the quality on the field is the reason the change is needed.

[ExiledRed]

If only we could go back to the old boards to see who was casting stones back then.



I will take full responsibility for calling everybody 'knee jerkers' and abusing Bhoybobby when they wanted to get rid of Mo Johnston in the first year.

I felt that the dislike for Mo was biased and unfair, and to be honest here's what happened.

Mo tried to install a 3-5-2 system and build a team culture around this system. He wanted nippy wingers, a quick forward like Esky or Buddle and a big lay off guy like Dichio.

Within two games it was quite obvious that the 'Canadian Shield' was completely sub-par, we really didnt have the players for 3-5-2 and the team went 0-4. Does this sound familiar yet?

There was no talk of seeing out the system and no patience for it. The calls for 4-4-2 were deafening.

I was wrong in the end about Mo, which is partly why Im so exasperated watching all the people that hated him begging for Winter to be given a chance that is all.

[TO DEVILS]

It has been very frustrating watching the best prospects leave and having supporters say "good riddance!" without acknowledging the damage that does and how it is indicative of the struggles the academy will continue to have. It is especially ironic since the ones that have said "good riddance" are also the ones that usually point to the academy prospects as the most significant hope this team has to improve and yet they don't account for these issues and struggles. Right now, it will be a good decade before quality, impactful prospects hit the first team.

I agree, more so since how many of those saying "good riddance" have actually seen them play to have a real opinion on the kids talent or performances, and how many of us are capable of truly accessing talent in young football players? As fans we can say this guy has potential or this guy is crap, but to say "good riddance" to someone who for example lead the CSL in goals, when he was a kid playing against men, is strange, mind boggling and very short sided.

If TFCA wants to assure the players they are investing in stay, and want them to sign an agreement, then they need to offer them more than dreams and hopes, because they have sold the fans and supporters those same dreams and hopes and i am yet to see any of it come to fruition.

Offer a kid a university scholarship, training, a place to stay and basic life expenses covered, and i am sure they would be willing to sign a 3-4 year deal. If nothing you are investing in their future, and attracking possible talented players to your organization. Talk about giving back to the community, start here, not having Dichio going to the park and signing autographs for 8 year olds while they kick a BMO bank ball around.

[TO DEVILS]

The rest of your post was equally succint, but this was my favourite quote.

Had we not been able to increase the operational budget by millions following the Edu sale, this emphasis on the academy being the ultimate priority would not have happened.

Even if we were able to retain the potential superstars into the first team, theyd be gone in less than a season, and we'd get a roof, or more seats or something in return,


I am not sure i fully understand what you are trying to suggest.

Edu was not a product of the Academy, and i don't think his sale by no means resulted in an operational increase of millions.
I really don't see the relationship between the Edu sale and the Academy. Where did you get this sense that without one there is no other?

Nobody really knows where the Edu money has been spent, and by no means that is what drove the Academy program. What drove the academy program is the need to find cheap talent in other places other than the draft or free agency. In a league with a salary cap, young kids making league minimum, whiling to play for league minimum and able to fill in the gaps in a small roster is what drove the Academy project.

I don't think anybody set at a table and said, if we build an Academy we will be able to sell one "Edu" every 6 years and make our money back.
I think people saw that in this league you need to find talent, the younger you can find it, the cheaper your cost will be, if they produce an Edu is a bonus, not a goal.

I honestly don't see the relationship between the two.

Your last line is strange. So for you there is no point on keeping great players because they would be gone in a year and the money would be used on seats and cushions.
Wow....so why bother than, lets just scrap the academy and save ourselves the pain of having a great player play for us for 1 season, and be able to say that the best Canadian players have been formed by TFC.

[Roogsy]

I agree, more so since how many of those saying "good riddance" have actually seen them play to have a real opinion on the kids talent or performances, and how many of us are capable of truly accessing talent in young football players? As fans we can say this guy has potential or this guy is crap, but to say "good riddance" to someone who for example lead the CSL in goals, when he was a kid playing against men, is strange, mind boggling and very short sided.

If TFCA wants to assure the players they are investing in stay, and want them to sign an agreement, then they need to offer them more than dreams and hopes, because they have sold the fans and supporters those same dreams and hopes and i am yet to see any of it come to fruition.

Offer a kid a university scholarship, training, a place to stay and basic life expenses covered, and i am sure they would be willing to sign a 3-4 year deal. If nothing you are investing in their future, and attracking possible talented players to your organization. Talk about giving back to the community, start here, not having Dichio going to the park and signing autographs for 8 year olds while they kick a BMO bank ball around.

Thank you. Bang on. You expressed it better than I did.

[ag futbol]

THIS.

I'm getting really annoyed with the people saying shit like: "Oh well all the Winter critics are hypocrites now after saying they would give him a season or two to get the club in order".

Because it should be pretty fucking obvious that when people made those remarks last year, NOBODY could ever have imagined that we'd be 0 for 7 at the start of the 2012 season with 16 goals against. The whole "one or two seasons" was based on the belief that we'd at least be playing competitively (ie: at least winning a couple games or earning some draws here and there).

The fact that we're not going to make the playoffs isn't what's frustrating everyone. It's the fact that we've yet to pick up even one fucking point by now - and you'd better believe that is legitimate grounds to criticize the manager (and others).
I have to agree with this, it makes everything incredibly clear. Our level of ineptitude reflects negatively on the competency of our manager, hence why he doesn't get to continue forward with a safety net, while someone who is nicking a game here or there would be given the benefit of the doubt.

My base-case of this season was that playoffs were a possibility, but I'd have been mostly content with a lower half finish providing we played entertaining footy. No getting around the need to make the playoffs in year three, but that's another conversation entirely. Sure we've played some ok football at times, but for the most part we are not competitive. Not a fan of stats for the game of football but they clearly demonstrate an unforgivable level of futility. 7 games and we've lead a match for what? all of 20 minutes? pretty shocking

[Roogsy]

Not a fan of stats for the game of football but they clearly demonstrate an unforgivable level of futility. 7 games and we've lead a match for what? all of 20 minutes? pretty shocking


I am sorry my friend...the actual stat is that we have led a game for exactly 90 seconds.

30 seconds of which was the goal celebration.

I wish I was kidding.

[TO DEVILS]

Exactly.

So why does firing Winter = scrapping the academy?

Odds are until the academy is producing significant contributors to the first team there will likely be 2-3 coaches come through that time as well.

The issue i see has a name, identity.

TFC has no identity. They hired Winter in hopes that he could give TFC and TFCA an identity, with that comes a style of play, organization, tactics, fundamentals, etc.

Academies at other big clubs work in a way, because there is a club identity, everyone from the janitor to the president knows what the identity of the club is, they know what it means to be there, and what needs to happen.
If we fire Winter, and i believe we should, whomever comes in his place, if outside his circle jerk, most likely will have their own identity and plans, and his plans will be winning with the senior squad to retain his job. Because at the end of the day nobody will lose their job based on what TFCA will do, but rather on the success of the senior squad.

To create an identity takes time, years, winning, all of the things TFC has none.

This is why i believe the Academy needs to have a real goal, a real expectation, not this romantic novel dream and aspiration that they will be producing kids who will be the clones of the kids Ajax or Barcelona produces able to fit in the senior squad and play a quality game.
The real expectations should be to produce the best kids we can possible produce, not produce kids that can play in A system. Because coaches will come and go and the chances are so will their tactics and philosophy or do you think we will only hire coaches that use the same system as Winter? That is as stupid as the Montreal Canadians only hiring French speaking coaches even if the best coach around is anglo-saxon.

[Roogsy]

The issue i see has a name, identity.

TFC has no identity. They hired Winter in hopes that he could give TFC and TFCA an identity, with that comes a style of play, organization, tactics, fundamentals, etc.

Academies at other big clubs work in a way, because there is a club identity, everyone from the janitor to the president knows what the identity of the club is, they know what it means to be there, and what needs to happen.
If we fire Winter, and i believe we should, whomever comes in his place, if outside his circle jerk, most likely will have their own identity and plans, and his plans will be winning with the senior squad to retain his job. Because at the end of the day nobody will lose their job based on what TFCA will do, but rather on the success of the senior squad.

To create an identity takes time, years, winning, all of the things TFC has none.

This is why i believe the Academy needs to have a real goal, a real expectation, not this romantic novel dream and aspiration that they will be producing kids who will be the clones of the kids Ajax or Barcelona produces able to fit in the senior squad and play a quality game.
The real expectations should be to produce the best kids we can possible produce, not produce kids that can play in A system. Because coaches will come and go and the chances are so will their tactics and philosophy or do you think we will only hire coaches that use the same system as Winter? That is as stupid as the Montreal Canadians only hiring French speaking coaches even if the best coach around is anglo-saxon.

Shoot somebody get Pedro a job at MLSE...they need to hear this shit.

[Whoop]

I agree.

For the moment, I think the academy and the first team are separate for the time being. While ideally you want the two to have the same identity for the time being the academy should be a separate entity until such time that players for the academy can be interspersed into the lineup. Whenever that is. You can still tinker with the academy, maybe not so much in the development but different coaching/teaching philosophies.

The first team right now though is in shambles. If the first team is in shambles and not corrected, why would I want to go to the TFCA even if it supposedly developing players?

So yes, you usually want the philosophy to work from the top down... but in this case the TFCA is about building a base.

The problem with TFC is the top of the senior side of things is a mess. I'm a little more confident in the group running the TFCA unless the top of TFC senior team is meddling in the TFCA.

[Canary10]

The issue i see has a name, identity.

TFC has no identity. They hired Winter in hopes that he could give TFC and TFCA an identity, with that comes a style of play, organization, tactics, fundamentals, etc.

Academies at other big clubs work in a way, because there is a club identity, everyone from the janitor to the president knows what the identity of the club is, they know what it means to be there, and what needs to happen.
If we fire Winter, and i believe we should, whomever comes in his place, if outside his circle jerk, most likely will have their own identity and plans, and his plans will be winning with the senior squad to retain his job. Because at the end of the day nobody will lose their job based on what TFCA will do, but rather on the success of the senior squad.

To create an identity takes time, years, winning, all of the things TFC has none.

This is why i believe the Academy needs to have a real goal, a real expectation, not this romantic novel dream and aspiration that they will be producing kids who will be the clones of the kids Ajax or Barcelona produces able to fit in the senior squad and play a quality game.
The real expectations should be to produce the best kids we can possible produce, not produce kids that can play in A system. Because coaches will come and go and the chances are so will their tactics and philosophy or do you think we will only hire coaches that use the same system as Winter? That is as stupid as the Montreal Canadians only hiring French speaking coaches even if the best coach around is anglo-saxon.

Clubs that succeed have a defined way of playing. If we keep changing that from manager to manager we will truly get nowhere. We need to hire a manager that can implement the vision we have, not go from Preki-ball to attacking football back to Preki-ball ad nauseum. If a kid can has the technical skills, he can play in any system anyway. That's what the academy is focusing on.

[TO DEVILS]

Clubs that succeed have a defined way of playing. If we keep changing that from manager to manager we will truly get nowhere. We need to hire a manager that can implement the vision we have, not go from Preki-ball to attacking football back to Preki-ball ad nauseum. If a kid can has the technical skills, he can play in any system anyway. That's what the academy is focusing on.

I disagree. Chelsea, Real Madrid, Lyon, Porto, AC Milan, Juve just to name a few have all won with different coaches and different styles.

Outside of ManU and Arsenal most teams change coaches every 2-3 years, the new coaches coming in are not hired based on how they want the club to play or based on how the development at the academies will be conducted, the coaches are hired based on results they have had in their careers.

The only team i can safely say follows the model you are saying is Barcelona. But Barcelona represents not only the club but the region, there is a huge history behind this club and they are not a franchise whose been around for 6 years. Even then when Pep took the job his record was horrible, he was almost fired by Xmas of that same year. You can't base any model on what Barcelona has done. It is an un-realistic dream.

You have to see where we are and follow models that work here. Like the old saying goes when in Rome.....we are in the MLS, so create a model that fits MLS and not try to import something that while successful elsewhere is not achievable here because of the different dynamics surrounding our team, our culture and our history.

If you don't believe me, look at Roma. They also wanted to be like Barcelona, hired Luis Enrique, we all know how that is going for them.

Barcelona is unique, the same way Ajax is unique. You can't clone Messi, so i am not sure why people think we can clone these models.

[Beach_Red]

Clubs that succeed have a defined way of playing. If we keep changing that from manager to manager we will truly get nowhere. We need to hire a manager that can implement the vision we have, not go from Preki-ball to attacking football back to Preki-ball ad nauseum. If a kid can has the technical skills, he can play in any system anyway. That's what the academy is focusing on.

Clubs that success have leadership from the top down - if we keep expecting the leadership to come from a coach parachuted in on a short-term contract... well, we see what we get.

All this talk about the system and Winter - he's just some guy who happened to be unemployed when TFC needed a coach. That's it. Sure, we need some vision but it has to start at the top.

What this team needs to do is pull some guy out of recent retirement, someone well-respected who has spent decades at the top of management. Even if they just make him a "full-time advisor." As long as they don't try and pass off some consulting company or bullshit like that.

All we're doing is tinkering with middle-management.

[TO DEVILS]

If a kid can has the technical skills, he can play in any system anyway. That's what the academy is focusing on.

I agree that if a kid is technically sound he can play in any system, but only to a certain level. But for the Academy kids to be sound, they need sound coaches.
Brennan and Dichio do not fit that bill.

You want me to take this academy serious, lets start by hiring qualified coaches that can teach the kids to be technically sound, from everything that i have seen, this academy has not one single coach capable of doing that.

[ExiledRed]

I am not sure i fully understand what you are trying to suggest.

Edu was not a product of the Academy, and i don't think his sale by no means resulted in an operational increase of millions.
I really don't see the relationship between the Edu sale and the Academy. Where did you get this sense that without one there is no other?



I apologise I wasnt clear here. When Edu was sold, the team was awarded millions of dollars from the trade to go toward team operations. It was this money that went toward grass.
The league specifies the money HAS to go toward the team, but it cant be used as allocation.

It is my belief that this trade is directly responsible for the emphasis on the academy. I imagine some genius thought we could be churning out a $5m player every two seasons or something. there is no doubt in my mind that the benefits to the first team are tertiary here, and the final objective is getting free money to pad the teams budget.




Nobody really knows where the Edu money has been spent, and by no means that is what drove the Academy program.

We disagree here, the Edu money padded the teams operational budget, because thats what it was supposed to do. I believe the revelation that we can sell rookies to higher leagues if they are good enough was a real eye opener.




Your last line is strange. So for you there is no point on keeping great players because they would be gone in a year and the money would be used on seats and cushions.
Wow....so why bother than, lets just scrap the academy and save ourselves the pain of having a great player play for us for 1 season, and be able to say that the best Canadian players have been formed by TFC.

Please...... I never said we shouldnt have an academy, or nurture star talent, Im stating that the emphasis on it has been for all the wrong reasons. In a nutshell its like Beach Red has said, its all about profit and nothing to do with bettering the first team.

[Whoop]

To touch on one thing Pedro mentioned, which I think there is some merit to in terms of connecting the Academy to education.

The TFCA could take a page out of the OHL in that for every year you spend in the academy you get one year of post-secondary education when you're done... unless you do in fact get a scholarship to a NCAA institution or if you sign with the senior team the money you've "earned" is a bonus for signing which the player can do with as he sees fit either putting aside for future educational usage if his pro career doesn't pan or he can blow it on a car.

It's easy enough to administer in that for every year you play in the academy you get one year tuition and books covered at U of T for example. So if you sign as a 14 year old and play 4 years in the academy until you're 18 you're covered. At 18, the team either signs you, with the money "earned" as a signing bonus, lets you go where you can go to school be it university or college or you go to the States on a scholarship whereby the scholarship nullifies the money you "earned" as the NCAA institution is now covering the expenses.

[Jack]

I'm pretty sure that, given the league rules, there was a stipulation that the money from the Edu sale could not go into the owners' pockets directly, but had to be reinvested in the team structure. Of course, investing in the team without having to spend out of their own pockets would appeal to MLSE.

[ExiledRed]

I'm pretty sure that, given the league rules, there was a stipulation that the money from the Edu sale could not go into the owners' pockets directly, but had to be reinvested in the team structure. Of course, investing in the team without having to spend out of their own pockets would appeal to MLSE.

This is what Im saying. It might as well go in their pockets. It was a free $5m however you slice it.

[ag futbol]

I'm pretty sure that, given the league rules, there was a stipulation that the money from the Edu sale could not go into the owners' pockets directly, but had to be reinvested in the team structure. Of course, investing in the team without having to spend out of their own pockets would appeal to MLSE.
Yeah I have to say, that rule has quite a few holes in it. Would be very hard to police considering one half that equation is a team's planned expenditures

[v00d00daddy]

I believe this is called Schadenfreude! :lol:

There may be a bit of me finding happiness in a lot of peoples disappointment and that's shitty on my part. It's petty. And I don't really wanna be like that.

That being said, I posted that because of the people getting upset about others questioning their support just because they want Winter gone.

I'm not anti winter yet...but I get those who are. I don't agree with all of what's said but I get where it's coming from and it's more than justified to me.

What I won't do, and have never done...is question a Winter bashers support of this team.

As much as we disagree on tons of shit....we at least agree that we both want to support this team.

Cheers.

[denime]

I agree with your ideas and most of your ideas what TFC should do are already in place.

Before I carry on, just to clear one thing about Vukovic,he did not want to go to college and it was his decision to carry on chasing his dream and went to Montreal,so to blame TFCA for him not going to college is your assumption and nothing else.Why they let him go?Well,it is not exact science,maybe they made mistake,we will find out soon,problem is CAP and roster space,rest of the world can sign as many players as they want and pay them good $$$ to stay,here as we all know we can't do that,it has to be calculated for year or two ahead,depend of talent we have in our TFCA.




My 2 cents is that the currently academy system is flawed and will never produce the same results academies in europe do.
The currently academy system is flawed for youngest ones,U12 and U13.Right now both teams have 25 kids and U12 team is literary the whole REP team(don't want to say the name of club),U13 has 70% kids scouted by one TFCA scout/ ass.coach who is also coach of REP team and head Coach/Owner of SAAC (Private )Academy,if that is not conflict of interest I don't know what it is.For those two groups end up being "who you know",more than how much you know,that will eventually get fixed,because who you know can bring you only so far,and most talented kids that will not end up in Europe will be there later on.



We need to be realistic and objective when looking at the Academy, if you have an above average player the chances are his agent is receiving offers from other clubs
There are some 10 and 11 years old kids who came to TFC tryouts with their agents,that is reality.There was a 12 old boy who's father declined the TFC invite,his son was picked up by Roma last month and boy is going to Barcelona in June for 2 weeks to try out there before they say yes to Roma,talents like that will never stay here,regardless who and how this club is run.




The current system needs to be upgraded to a more hybrid model that offers players not only a chance to become professional soccer players but also get an education.
Kids who can not make it pro will be, and already are being set up with NCAA and CSA for scholarships,and this is nothing new,Stinson went to NCAA first and came back to 1st team training camp and never looked back.TFC expects 1 kid per year to make it to the 1st team if at all,1st results expected in 5 years.



So what can we do to be at least if not the first choice a considerable 2nd viable option for young soccer players?
I think you need a program that not only provides soccer training and development but also an Academic future for the young kids.
So i think the model needs to incorporate a "scholarship" + "housing" for the athletes picked as Academy players. If i am a parent of an upcoming player, i want my son to get an education first and foremost, the soccer career is a dream, that could easily be short lived leaving you with nothing but stories of your glory days.
Partner up with 2-3 high schools, and one university. Offer the players a schooling program in partnership with the athletic program. not only for the kids a free education while playing for you, but also create a program with the schools that allows the kids to go to school while spending the maximum amount of hours on the field as possible.
Have transportation from the residence program to the schools and pick up from the school back to the training grounds. A complete marriage between the two, i would say a step above what NCAA does.
Only something of this magnitude will show real results, because right now, the ones worth keeping will leave and the ones we keep aren't worth keeping.

Junior and Senior academy kids are set up with HS and housing/Billeting program


TRANSPORTATION – Bill Crothers Secondary School Daily Bus to Training – ATTN: U15, U17 & U19 TEAMS

Currently, there is a bus pick up at BCSS in Unionville, for all the athletes attending BCSS.
It comes Monday to Friday and departs BCSS at 2PM – bringing the athletes to BMO Field.
If you are situated anywhere in the area surrounding Unionville and you would like to take advantage of this free transportation to training – please let me know and I will add your son’s name to the bus list.


FOOD – After Training Meals - ATTN: U15, U17 & U19 TEAMS
We will be feeding the boys after training Monday through Friday.
It will be the boys/families responsibility to come properly prepared in terms of eating for training.

The idea here is to have all academy boys going to one school,the one above is by far the best school in GTA when it comes to Athletic programs and facilities.We were told that kids might need 5 instead of 4 years to finish it,becouse school day is shorter and to get all credits and Hrs needed, might take extra year.


TFC Billeting program
For those athletes who require an above average commute time to get to training and feel that their school/soccer/life balance could be better served by living closer to our facilitates.


Transportation allowance /subsidy
You will receive this in cash at the beginning of every month
Each athlete's allowance/subsidy will be tailored to their travel route required to arrive at the building.


SOCIAL MEDIA POLICY
At the start of the 2012 MLS season Toronto FC will adopt a new social media policy that will be applicable to all Toronto FC coaches and players including First Team and Academy staff...

Club Affiliate Programs


CAP PROGRAM - OBJECTIVES AND PRIORITIES:

Athlete Development – Scouting
Technical Curriculum
Coaching Information
Access to Workshops & Seminars
Club Members/Players Reward Programs

Tickets
Community
Merchandise
Training Programs


Club Support



There are 13 Youth Clubs in this program,they will be TFCA feeders and all of them will have to follow TFCA development program,their coaches will be educated/trained by TFCA.


As far TFCA goes TFC is doing well at this point,what I would suggest them is U21 team,so that kids that can not make it when they are 18(late bloomers) still can get the best training and maybe make the cut into 1st team year or two later.


BTW why we are talking about TFCA in Nicol or Rongen thread?

[ExiledRed]

BTW why we are talking about TFCA in Nicol or Rongen thread?

Because one of the fallacies that people are presenting as a reason not to hire Nicol is that the academy system would be 'exploded'

I dont believe it would have any negative impact at all.

[denime]

Because one of the fallacies that people are presenting as a reason not to hire Nicol is that the academy system would be 'exploded'

I dont believe it would have any negative impact at all.


Oh,ok.

I don't see big impact right away,since program is not even 6 months old,and by the time that 1st fully trained 4-3-3 generation comes out in 5-6 years from now,I'm sure Nicol will not be here anyway.

[Ajax TFC]

What TFCA needs is a reserve team in the NASL that they can loan graduates to that aren't getting playing time in the first team, and so wasting roster spots. Players like Cordon and Makubuya. It would have also allowed us to hold onto Vukovic a while longer without standing in the way of other, more promising talents like Hamilton.

On the note of Rongen to head coach - I would rather he stay where he is. He's what the academy needs, and the academy is the reason he's here. IMO if we promote from within, we should promote De Klerk

[denime]

What TFCA needs is a reserve team in the NASL that they can loan graduates to that aren't getting playing time in the first team, and so wasting roster spots. Players like Cordon and Makubuya. It would have also allowed us to hold onto Vukovic a while longer without standing in the way of other, more promising talents like Hamilton.

On the note of Rongen to head coach - I would rather he stay where he is. He's what the academy needs, and the academy is the reason he's here. IMO if we promote from within, we should promote De Klerk

Agree 100%

U21 team would solve first problem.

I was told DeKlerk is much better tactician and better motivator than Winter,that might be another solution.

[ExiledRed]

Agree 100%

U21 team would solve first problem.

I was told DeKlerk is much better tactician and better motivator than Winter,that might be another solution.

The problem with keeping DeKlerk or Mariner is that there is no way of knowing how culpable each of them are for for our current woes.
I'd only keep Mariner because its obvious he could work with Nicol.
No Nicol and Mariner should go too.

[Yohan]

The problem with keeping DeKlerk or Mariner is that there is no way of knowing how culpable each of them are for for our current woes.
I'd only keep Mariner because its obvious he could work with Nicol.
No Nicol and Mariner should go too.

Why fire Mariner?

Ya, he failed at finding a CB replacement, but given restrictions he had, I think I'll give him more benefit of doubt. Imagine how pissed off the supporters would have been if Ecks and Plata didn't get signed? Mariner went to South America like a lot of people wanted, and one of the CB was this ball playing CB that people demanded.

Mariner made a lot of good moves, and given the circumstances, I think he's done good enough at GM.

[ExiledRed]

Why fire Mariner?

Ya, he failed at finding a CB replacement, but given restrictions he had, I think I'll give him more benefit of doubt. Imagine how pissed off the supporters would have been if Ecks and Plata didn't get signed? Mariner went to South America like a lot of people wanted, and one of the CB was this ball playing CB that people demanded.

Mariner made a lot of good moves, and given the circumstances, I think he's done good enough at GM.

I see a lot of people blaming him for winters mistakes, and to be honest there is no real way of knowing what his role in this fiasco has been.

Similar with DeKlerk.

Id like to think Winter is entirely responsible and everybody else involved here is free from blame, in fact that would be tidy. It would mean the next coach already has a structure in place he can build from. I just dont think it could possibly be the case, that Mariner or DeKlerk are without fault here.

[Yohan]

Frank Yallop anyone?

http://www.therecord.com/sports/article/715296--former-canadian-national-team-coach-winning-in-mls-and-doing-it-right

[jloome]

we're just told that "progress" that we can't see is being made.

Progress that YOU can't see. who is the we, kemo sabe? I don't think he has the motivating skill, but to say there's no positive difference between this team and the old ignores the fact that we have an offense now that actually looks dangerous game in and out. We've never had that before.

That's offensive progress. So he's made progress.

He just hasn't made enough. The defence was shit when he got here and only got results with 11 behind the ball. Nick Garcia, anyone? But it's still shit, and that's on coaches and their support staff.

It seems easier for everyone to state this entire debate in absolutes, but there's no such conclusion reachable... except that we absolutely haven't won a league game yet.

[jloome]

YES I am entirely right. In law what you are is WILLFULLY BLIND. WE ARE 0-7. There is nothing competitive about a 0-7 club.

My president said it. But let me say it my way WAKE UP WE ARE 0-7.

What the fuck is hard to understand about that? You are not competitive if you are 0-7.
for the record, I think we have the players it takes to be competitive in this league.

Sorry Trane, I agree with you about most things dude, but this is irrational and wrong. Competitiveness and outcome are two different measures, absolutely and unequivocable. In the last game, we won exactly 50% of duels for the ball (44 to 44) we were outshot 5-4 on target and of their five extra total shots, four were blocked by our defenders before even reaching the net.

Oh... and they didn't win the game until extra time.

That's pretty much dictionary definition of competitive. If you want to make the argument that being competitive is irrelevant given our record, that's fair, but it's a different argument.

[ExiledRed]

Progress that YOU can't see. who is the we, kemo sabe? I don't think he has the motivating skill, but to say there's no positive difference between this team and the old ignores the fact that we have an offense now that actually looks dangerous game in and out. We've never had that before.

That's offensive progress. So he's made progress.

He just hasn't made enough. The defence was shit when he got here and only got results with 11 behind the ball. Nick Garcia, anyone? But it's still shit, and that's on coaches and their support staff.

It seems easier for everyone to state this entire debate in absolutes, but there's no such conclusion reachable... except that we absolutely haven't won a league game yet.

We've always had a dangerous offense, just no finish.

If Chad Barrett finishes a quarter of his golden opportunities, or Cunningham, or Vitti, we would have made the playoffs years ago.

Its not better now, its just different.

[jloome]

It cannot be denied that after fifteen months the team is worse than it was when he took over....

See, this horseshit is what pisses people off. We've never made the playoff. There is no objective way or measurement to say he's worse than Preki. He's never even completed a season. So yes, of course we can deny that he's the worst ever. THAT DOESN"T MEAN HE'S GOOD, just that long arguments in which both sides throw out trite, unsupportable bullshit like this do no one any good and just lead to bad feeling on the board.

There are two sides to any issue. Refusing to even consider the other doesn't make anyone look objective.

[jloome]

If the standings don't show it, on what basis can anyone say this is the best team we've had?

Most expensive team? Yep.
Most underperforming team? You got it.
Most frustrating team? Sure.

And of course, the team with the 2nd worst record right after MoJo's expansion year. And even that position is tenuous. Keep up our current form and even MoJo's team will have better results than us.

So given all that, how can anyone say this is the "best team"? Based on what? And if they indeed are the best team "on paper" for example, then isn't that exactly the reason why the focus should be on Winter and HIS performance as a manager?

See answer above. This "you can't prove it conclusively so I'm not going to consider a rational middle ground" works both ways.

[trane]

jloome,

It depends on what period/state you want to use measure competitiveness.

If you want to measure competitiveness on an in game basis, on a basis of the stats of that game, yes, you can argue that we were competitive. Like you said we had 50/50 possession, shot on goals, and so on. BUT if you judge competitiveness on bottom line results, and over a period a team that cannot win a game, and one that is outscored the way we are, then we are not competitive. On a game to game basis, is we are not able to get out goals per game down vis a vis the goals we score, we will not be competitive vis a vis the goal winning the game. similalrly we will not be competitive vis a vis reaching any goals in the league.

I just think that those other measures of competitiveness shots, possession ect. are insignificant in light of the important measures of goals for v goals against and wins v losses.

[ as always I respect your opinion]

[jloome]

We've always had a dangerous offense, just no finish.

If Chad Barrett finishes a quarter of his golden opportunities, or Cunningham, or Vitti, we would have made the playoffs years ago.

Its not better now, its just different.

This had some validity his first year with Guevara and DeRo in the lineup. But even then, it was one individual play by those two guys who usually sprung the chance. We couldn't string two passes together.

Maybe right, though. I'd have to look at shot counts and chances, and I'm pretty sure we'll find they're higher now.

[jloome]

jloome,

It depends on what period/state you want to use measure competitiveness.

If you want to measure competitiveness on an in game basis, on a basis of the stats of that game, yes, you can argue that we were competitive. Like you said we had 50/50 possession, shot on goals, and so on. BUT if you judge competitiveness on bottom line results, and over a period a team that cannot win a game, and one that is outscored the way we are, then we are not competitive. On a game to game basis, is we are not able to get out goals per game down vis a vis the goals we score, we will not be competitive vis a vis the goal winning the game. similalrly we will not be competitive vis a vis reaching any goals in the league.

I just think that those other measures of competitiveness shots, possession ect. are insignificant in light of the important measures of goals for v goals against and wins v losses.

[ as always I respect your opinion]

Fair. To me, if you look at the stats, the two of you were arguing different hings. He was arguing we're competitive in-game from game to game. You're arguing we're not competitive in the league, which is true.

[Fort York Redcoat]

jloome,

It depends on what period/state you want to use measure competitiveness.

If you want to measure competitiveness on an in game basis, on a basis of the stats of that game, yes, you can argue that we were competitive. Like you said we had 50/50 possession, shot on goals, and so on. BUT if you judge competitiveness on bottom line results, and over a period a team that cannot win a game, and one that is outscored the way we are, then we are not competitive. On a game to game basis, is we are not able to get out goals per game down vis a vis the goals we score, we will not be competitive vis a vis the goal winning the game. similalrly we will not be competitive vis a vis reaching any goals in the league.

I just think that those other measures of competitiveness shots, possession ect. are insignificant in light of the important measures of goals for v goals against and wins v losses.

[ as always I respect your opinion]

If you want to judge on bottom line results you don't actually have to watch the game, hence, I see competitive play through the game at times.

[trane]

Fair. To me, if you look at the stats, the two of you were arguing different hings. He was arguing we're competitive in-game from game to game. You're arguing we're not competitive in the league, which is true.

Listen, I believe that we have improved, and that we are doing alot of things right. But we need to get some basic things right to be truly able to compete, because at the end of the day, no matter who much possession we have, and who hard we are playing, when we let in that one, two , three easy goal, we undermine everything.


This is why I am for getting a new manager, I do not think that we are far from being a good MLS side.

[Beach_Red]

Progress that YOU can't see. who is the we, kemo sabe? I don't think he has the motivating skill, but to say there's no positive difference between this team and the old ignores the fact that we have an offense now that actually looks dangerous game in and out. We've never had that before.

That's offensive progress. So he's made progress.

He just hasn't made enough. The defence was shit when he got here and only got results with 11 behind the ball. Nick Garcia, anyone? But it's still shit, and that's on coaches and their support staff.

It seems easier for everyone to state this entire debate in absolutes, but there's no such conclusion reachable... except that we absolutely haven't won a league game yet.

The rising tide lifts all boats - every team in this league looks better than it did a few years ago. We're still lagging behind. Sure, I'll admit I don't know this game as well as I do hockey, but this doesn't seem like a sport where championships are won on offense. Looking dangerous and not finishing while letting in three goals a game doesn't seem like the best way to build a team. No one wants stifling, boring, totally defensive games, but teams need to learn to win and that starts with defence, doesn't it? Until that happens it just seems like any progress is wasted.

[ensco]

I don't get the "degree of suckitude" debate.

We seriously suck, by any relative or absolute standard.

[jloome]

The rising tide lifts all boats - every team in this league looks better than it did a few years ago. We're still lagging behind. Sure, I'll admit I don't know this game as well as I do hockey, but this doesn't seem like a sport where championships are won on offense. Looking dangerous and not finishing while letting in three goals a game doesn't seem like the best way to build a team. No one wants stifling, boring, totally defensive games, but teams need to learn to win and that starts with defence, doesn't it? Until that happens it just seems like any progress is wasted.

yeah, just trying to get more of a dialectic tone man. That's totally true. You can't win in MLS without disciplined defence.

[ExiledRed]

See, this horseshit is what pisses people off. We've never made the playoff. There is no objective way or measurement to say he's worse than Preki. He's never even completed a season. So yes, of course we can deny that he's the worst ever. THAT DOESN"T MEAN HE'S GOOD, just that long arguments in which both sides throw out trite, unsupportable bullshit like this do no one any good and just lead to bad feeling on the board.

There are two sides to any issue. Refusing to even consider the other doesn't make anyone look objective.

You know I often get accused of being condescending or overaggressive, but its responding to posts like this that have gotten me that reputation.

The team is no better than any previous lineup, but for the DP's that is, and the results bear that out.

[jloome]

Listen, I believe that we have improved, and that we are doing alot of things right. But we need to get some basic things right to be truly able to compete, because at the end of the day, no matter who much possession we have, and who hard we are playing, when we let in that one, two , three easy goal, we undermine everything.


This is why I am for getting a new manager, I do not think that we are far from being a good MLS side.

I'd agree with this right up to who is to blame. I don't think he's been given the tools by Mariner to compete. We had one overarching problem before this season, a lack of a decent, commanding centre back. Montreal found Ferrari, Vancouver found Martin Bonjour .... and Mariner found us Geovanni Caicedo, a player so poor that the first time I mentioned him online I was besieged by Ecuadorean soccer fans saying how shit he is. And as we saw in preseason, he was WAY out of his league. I still think, for the most part, Aceval is out of his league, too.

Ultimately, to me, this might well be an MLSE problem: they hired two men for one job, and are reaping the usual half-step benefits of a divided house. But it was MARINER's job to fix the personnel issue; if we keep making the same small mistakes because we don't have smart enough players, no amount of motivating, coaching or adjusting will fix the problem.

That's the argument in Winter's favor, and to me, it's not a bad one. I still favor giving him the season to try and at least make it respectable. If at the end of the year we're only a few points out, then we have to again point to the one major roster deficiency. If he can't get us that, then they should both go. And that is NOT Winter's fault -- unless he's just accepting it behind the scenes and not making noise about the quality of the players we brought in.

[Beach_Red]

I don't get the "degree of suckitude" debate.

We seriously suck, by any relative or absolute standard.

We do deserve butter. All we're asking is to not be the suckiest team in the league. Could any fans ask any less? ;)

[jloome]

I don't get the "degree of suckitude" debate.

We seriously suck, by any relative or absolute standard.

Degrees aren't important? How do you best identify a problem and fix it if you don't see differences of degrees? That DOES leave just throwing everything out as the only solution, and it also introduces artifice to the argument -- that one guy is in control of everything. If he was, you'd be right, the degrees of gain in various areas would be irrelevant. But they're not, because he's NOT in control of everything.

We're losing this year because our defence still sucks. Period. Look at every other stat, and we're more competitive than any other team we've put on the field, from time of possesion, to shots, to blocks, to duels for the ball, to tackles, to fouls. EVERY stat.

Except defence. But is that entirely Winter's fault when he doesn't get to pick which players to sign or is given limited options because he doesn't have that measure of control? Not necessarily.

[Yohan]

Degrees aren't important? How do you best identify a problem and fix it if you don't see differences of degrees? That DOES leave just throwing everything out as the only solution, and it also introduces artifice to the argument -- that one guy is in control of everything. If he was, you'd be right, the degrees of gain in various areas would be irrelevant. But they're not, because he's NOT in control of everything.

We're losing this year because our defence still sucks. Period. Look at every other stat, and we're more competitive than any other team we've put on the field, from time of possesion, to shots, to blocks, to duels for the ball, to tackles, to fouls. EVERY stat.

Except defence. But is that entirely Winter's fault when he doesn't get to pick which players to sign or is given limited options because he doesn't have that measure of control? Not necessarily.

Dear JDG,

Please accept a free transfer offer to anywhere, so that your cap space hit can be used to get a good CB that'll pretty much solve most of TFC's problem.

Love,
-Me

[Beach_Red]

I'd agree with this right up to who is to blame. I don't think he's been given the tools by Mariner to compete. We had one overarching problem before this season, a lack of a decent, commanding centre back. Montreal found Ferrari, Vancouver found Martin Bonjour .... and Mariner found us Geovanni Caicedo, a player so poor that the first time I mentioned him online I was besieged by Ecuadorean soccer fans saying how shit he is. And as we saw in preseason, he was WAY out of his league. I still think, for the most part, Aceval is out of his league, too.

Ultimately, to me, this might well be an MLSE problem: they hired two men for one job, and are reaping the usual half-step benefits of a divided house. But it was MARINER's job to fix the personnel issue; if we keep making the same small mistakes because we don't have smart enough players, no amount of motivating, coaching or adjusting will fix the problem.

That's the argument in Winter's favor, and to me, it's not a bad one. I still favor giving him the season to try and at least make it respectable. If at the end of the year we're only a few points out, then we have to again point to the one major roster deficiency. If he can't get us that, then they should both go. And that is NOT Winter's fault -- unless he's just accepting it behind the scenes and not making noise about the quality of the players we brought in.

Probably everyone can agree that the Winter/Mariner tandem isn't working. Whatever their roles are supposed to be. Part of the problem is that for four years TFC had a guy way out of his depth supposedly running things and his method was to bring in as many guys as he could convince to come here and let whatever coach of the day was here make the decision over who to keep. It wasn't really the hockey GM/coach model but it wasn't any other model, either. And they seem to have stuck to this weird, hybrid, non-model.

[trane]

I'd agree with this right up to who is to blame. I don't think he's been given the tools by Mariner to compete. We had one overarching problem before this season, a lack of a decent, commanding centre back. Montreal found Ferrari, Vancouver found Martin Bonjour .... and Mariner found us Geovanni Caicedo, a player so poor that the first time I mentioned him online I was besieged by Ecuadorean soccer fans saying how shit he is. And as we saw in preseason, he was WAY out of his league. I still think, for the most part, Aceval is out of his league, too.

Ultimately, to me, this might well be an MLSE problem: they hired two men for one job, and are reaping the usual half-step benefits of a divided house. But it was MARINER's job to fix the personnel issue; if we keep making the same small mistakes because we don't have smart enough players, no amount of motivating, coaching or adjusting will fix the problem.

That's the argument in Winter's favor, and to me, it's not a bad one. I still favor giving him the season to try and at least make it respectable. If at the end of the year we're only a few points out, then we have to again point to the one major roster deficiency. If he can't get us that, then they should both go. And that is NOT Winter's fault -- unless he's just accepting it behind the scenes and not making noise about the quality of the players we brought in.

I do not disagree. Other then saying, what has been said, ultimately the manager has the players he has, and he must get results with those players, otherwise you find one that can. There are ways of addressing our problems, Winter has found them to time to time, but not on a consisted enough basis, and clearly not other then past 7 games. If winter was even 2-5 or 1-4-2 maybe I am with you, but 0-7 is too much. Once you get to 0-3 you should be trying anything to squeeze points, 4-4-1-1 (Koevermans up top with Silva/Johnson behind) 4-1-4-1, whatever, and you squeeze points.


I am not 100 % that he does not turn it around, but after 55 -60 games the evidence is showing me that it seems time to move on.

WHEN I SAW THAT MONTREAL HAD FERRARI I WAS PISSED. The only defender that came close to him in pedegree and skills ( and Ferrari is better) was Tibley and he was here for 5 minutes. First year Montreal get him, but we do not. But I had to say that in part it is because of their Italian connections.

[trane]

Probably everyone can agree that the Winter/Mariner tandem isn't working. Whatever their roles are supposed to be. Part of the problem is that for four years TFC had a guy way out of his depth supposedly running things and his method was to bring in as many guys as he could convince to come here and let whatever coach of the day was here make the decision over who to keep. It wasn't really the hockey GM/coach model but it wasn't any other model, either. And they seem to have stuck to this weird, hybrid, non-model.

Agreed.

[jloome]

Probably everyone can agree that the Winter/Mariner tandem isn't working. Whatever their roles are supposed to be. Part of the problem is that for four years TFC had a guy way out of his depth supposedly running things and his method was to bring in as many guys as he could convince to come here and let whatever coach of the day was here make the decision over who to keep. It wasn't really the hockey GM/coach model but it wasn't any other model, either. And they seem to have stuck to this weird, hybrid, non-model.

This is it, to me. It was just a dumb decision to have them both there. There was a report in preaseason training camp that the two of them didn't get along and the Winter wasn't happy with the players Mariner had provided for camp.

Trane, I agree to an extent that after 60 games, even with a few players short he should be better. But you add in the new system -- which really was lost on half teh team for the first half of last season, with players like Stugis openly admitting it was difficult to understand -- and that gives him some leeway. But not much.

[jloome]

I'd also add that stats showing our terrible "build from the back" is responsible for about half our goals also suggest you're right Trane, and he just doesn't make the right adjustments.

[denime]

Probably everyone can agree that the Winter/Mariner tandem isn't working. Whatever their roles are supposed to be. Part of the problem is that for four years TFC had a guy way out of his depth supposedly running things and his method was to bring in as many guys as he could convince to come here and let whatever coach of the day was here make the decision over who to keep. It wasn't really the hockey GM/coach model but it wasn't any other model, either. And they seem to have stuck to this weird, hybrid, non-model.

It is not working,and it is well know that Mariner and Winter don't see eye to eye,and this is where owner or in our case T.Anselmi should have stepped in long time ago and clear the shit between them and make it work one way or another.

My understanding Winter has last say who to sign and this is what might be a problem between Mariner and Winter.Mariner picks player and Winter said no,and another one,and another one and so on.

[Beach_Red]

It is not working,and it is well know that Mariner and Winter don't see eye to eye,and this is where owner or in our case T.Anselmi should have stepped in long time ago and clear the shit between them and make it work one way or another.

My understanding Winter has last say who to sign and this is what might be a problem between Mariner and Winter.Mariner picks player and Winter said no,and another one,and another one and so on.

And all he said was, "They have to work it out," and then the rumour they have four games to turn it around. Not exactly leadership, but who knows, maybe it'll work and they will turn it around.

[ensco]

Degrees aren't important? How do you best identify a problem and fix it if you don't see differences of degrees? That DOES leave just throwing everything out as the only solution, and it also introduces artifice to the argument -- that one guy is in control of everything. If he was, you'd be right, the degrees of gain in various areas would be irrelevant. But they're not, because he's NOT in control of everything.

We're losing this year because our defence still sucks. Period. Look at every other stat, and we're more competitive than any other team we've put on the field, from time of possesion, to shots, to blocks, to duels for the ball, to tackles, to fouls. EVERY stat.

Except defence. But is that entirely Winter's fault when he doesn't get to pick which players to sign or is given limited options because he doesn't have that measure of control? Not necessarily.

I actually don't think the problem is the defense per se. I think the problem is organization -guys don't have a clear enough understanding of overall responsibility in various situations, especially in transition. Goals against is the symptom, not the disease.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Glad to see that mariner is catching some blame around here, alot of people seem to think this is all on winter, especially the.signings

[Roogsy]

I actually don't think the problem is the defense per se. I think the problem is organization -guys don't have a clear enough understanding of overall responsibility in various situations, especially in transition. Goals against is the symptom, not the disease.

I agree with this. As a defender in the amateur levels my whole life I've been very effective despite not being tactically knowledgeable. The reason? My coaches knew my strengths and gave me a role I could play effectively. All I needed was direction.

Defense is not a position that requires the most accurate shot or the most technical ability. It's a position that can be taught. It's a position that requires a player to know their assignment. You need to know angles and be physically able to counter the technical skills forwards usually have with smarts and physicality.

I am as certain as anything that the current block of defenders are good enough to do the job well if not spectacular. What they need is a coach that knows how to communicate strategy well. Winter is not that guy but other coaches might be. We don't need a revamp of our defensive players, we need a new coach and I promise you our defense will improve.

[Roogsy]

Glad to see that mariner is catching some blame around here, alot of people seem to think this is all on winter, especially the.signings

Maybe we'd know what to blame him for if we knew what his role actually is.

[jloome]

Maybe we'd know what to blame him for if we knew what his role actually is.

This is true.

I'd disagree that we have a good enough defence for this league, however. I don't think we have a single player on our backline who would automatically start elsewhere. Given how close statistically the games have been, that one --or two, or three-- boneheaded play is a pretty big factor.

Most of these thigns haven't been about undertanding assignments, they've been individual bad plays: Cann blows the markign on the first goal (but obviously knew who he was marking as he followed him); he decides to leave the second one to go over his head to let the back post player handle it. If we have consistent players, these things don't routinely happen.

I think you're right though in that he can minimize the frequency of those mistakes by adapting tactically and hasn't done so.

But he did in this last game, when we stopped trying to build with short passes from the back completely and stopped winging in balls willy nilly from the wing. Didn't stop Cann from fucking up twice or frings from missing the penalty on a 5-10 keeper by trying to stutter step him.

[jloome]

I actually don't think the problem is the defense per se. I think the problem is organization -guys don't have a clear enough understanding of overall responsibility in various situations, especially in transition. Goals against is the symptom, not the disease.

If you look at the distribution chart from the RSL game, it's apparent that Dunfield has no idea where he's supposed to be half the time. other than that, their general positioning wasn't bad. It wasn't unclear understanding that blew the mark on the first goal (he was following the player) or missed the penatly. In fact, if it were transition that were the issue, the other teams would be scoring clean goals from open play; but they're not, they're scoring on broken plays in which assignments are blown by the right guys.

[Roogsy]

This is true.

I'd disagree that we have a good enough defence for this league, however. I don't think we have a single player on our backline who would automatically start elsewhere. Given how close statistically the games have been, that one --or two, or three-- boneheaded play is a pretty big factor.

Most of these thigns haven't been about undertanding assignments, they've been individual bad plays: Cann blows the markign on the first goal (but obviously knew who he was marking as he followed him); he decides to leave the second one to go over his head to let the back post player handle it. If we have consistent players, these things don't routinely happen.

I think you're right though in that he can minimize the frequency of those mistakes by adapting tactically and hasn't done so.

But he did in this last game, when we stopped trying to build with short passes from the back completely and stopped winging in balls willy nilly from the wing. Didn't stop Cann from fucking up twice or frings from missing the penalty on a 5-10 keeper by trying to stutter step him.

I understand what you're saying but remember Wynne and what a defensive liability he was? And yet he was good enough to help his team win an MLS Cup. Defense is much more reliant on coach's abilities to identify strengths and use them effectively. We think these guys would not be able to start elsewhere but I'd bet a good bunch of them actually could. They just look bad on our team because doesn't every player? LOL!

[ExiledRed]

If you look at the distribution chart from the RSL game, it's apparent that Dunfield has no idea where he's supposed to be half the time. other than that, their general positioning wasn't bad. It wasn't unclear understanding that blew the mark on the first goal (he was following the player) or missed the penatly. In fact, if it were transition that were the issue, the other teams would be scoring clean goals from open play; but they're not, they're scoring on broken plays in which assignments are blown by the right guys.

On Dunfield. Whenever he gets the ball, no matter what the situation, he either squares it or passes back to the keeper. Its almost like he's been told 'AT NO COST PLAY IT FORWARD..EVER'

[jloome]

On Dunfield. Whenever he gets the ball, no matter what the situation, he either squares it or passes back to the keeper. Its almost like he's been told 'AT NO COST PLAY IT FORWARD..EVER'

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-04-28-rsl-v-tor/chalkboard

For proof. More than two-thirds of his passes, even in the other end, go backwards. His completion rate is around 70%, which for a key midfielder is very poor, and he was stripped six times, completing just one tackle all game. It was like we were playing with 10 people; worse it was like we were playing with 10 people plus one who put our defense under pressure by passing backwards constantly. No wonder he took him off at 60.

[jloome]

I understand what you're saying but remember Wynne and what a defensive liability he was? And yet he was good enough to help his team win an MLS Cup. Defense is much more reliant on coach's abilities to identify strengths and use them effectively. We think these guys would not be able to start elsewhere but I'd bet a good bunch of them actually could. They just look bad on our team because doesn't every player? LOL!

yeah, I can really argue with that. The fact is, there have been coaches in this league who got a lot out of not much.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Maybe we'd know what to blame him for if we knew what his role actually is. I was always under the impression he was in charge of player acquisitions. But I suppose you're right we don't know quite. What his job is

[ExiledRed]

I cant help it. If that yellow bar hadnt grown much until a couple hours after the poll went up and then all of a sudden went past 50%, I might trust it more.
I might be less suspicious if the Winter rating poll wasnt contradicting it more, and had more votes. It went up roughly the same time, but its harder to rate Winter more than 2 stars without giving the game away isnt it?

Yes Im paranoid, yes im a tinfoil hat guy, but that doesnt make it any less suspicious.

[Roogsy]

I cant help it. If that yellow bar hadnt grown much until a couple hours after the poll went up and then all of a sudden went past 50%, I might trust it more.
I might be less suspicious if the Winter rating poll wasnt contradicting it more, and had more votes. It went up roughly the same time, but its harder to rate Winter more than 2 stars without giving the game away isnt it?

Yes Im paranoid, yes im a tinfoil hat guy, but that doesnt make it any less suspicious.

I noticed the same thing and it did seem dodgy.

[Lumpy]

I cant help it. If that yellow bar hadnt grown much until a couple hours after the poll went up and then all of a sudden went past 50%, I might trust it more.
I might be less suspicious if the Winter rating poll wasnt contradicting it more, and had more votes. It went up roughly the same time, but its harder to rate Winter more than 2 stars without giving the game away isnt it?

Yes Im paranoid, yes im a tinfoil hat guy, but that doesnt make it any less suspicious.

Pretty simple explanation. Most people want to keep Winter despite the fact he had a bad month. Maybe people are getting tired of seeing the same poll with slightly different wording. I recommend that there be another poll can't hurt. Eventually there will be only a few voters. Most people want Winter to stay that just the way it is.

[123 elite]

What's causing the mistakes? The players? How do you prepare further for missed headers by inches? What do you do to make Johnson make those? What hasn't Koevermans learned in his career to execute his chances? Did he magically forget to shoot past the keeper and Winter needs to remind him he's doing it wrong?

Ok, so DK's not been in shape. Perhaps we should bench him in favour of...? Oh wait we don't really have anything of quality to bring in off the bench. Maybe sign someone? Oh wait, the MLS has bloody rules out the ass, so we can't do that either. Oh wait, management won't let us bench another struggling DP, so he'll have to play anyways. Fuck it, Winter it's your fault, lets bring in another coach who will magically not be handicapped by all this!

There is desire to be successful, the players haven't been successful but do you really think they don't desire to win? Statisically, we out chanced/possessed Columbus/Chivas/Chicago/San Jose and were equal on the road at Montreal and Seattle, and gave RSL a decent showing despite them outplaying us in that regard.



you can't use that as an arguement when every team faces the issues. I remember I think Columbus hitting the woodwork a couple of times so by your logic we were a few inches off a 3-0 gubbing there. Every team has near misses, hits the woodwork etc. If you insist we are improving then we are just not improving as fast as everyone else. So thats not really improving at all. You measure yourself against the opposition not your previous self.

[ensco]

If you look at the distribution chart from the RSL game, it's apparent that Dunfield has no idea where he's supposed to be half the time. other than that, their general positioning wasn't bad. It wasn't unclear understanding that blew the mark on the first goal (he was following the player) or missed the penatly. In fact, if it were transition that were the issue, the other teams would be scoring clean goals from open play; but they're not, they're scoring on broken plays in which assignments are blown by the right guys.

Sadly we've had plenty of both scored against us.

[ensco]

I cant help it. If that yellow bar hadnt grown much until a couple hours after the poll went up and then all of a sudden went past 50%, I might trust it more.
I might be less suspicious if the Winter rating poll wasnt contradicting it more, and had more votes. It went up roughly the same time, but its harder to rate Winter more than 2 stars without giving the game away isnt it?

Yes Im paranoid, yes im a tinfoil hat guy, but that doesnt make it any less suspicious.

I liked this poll, and used to think these actually mattered. Have to think about this a bit. No way that the discussion supports what the poll is saying. I guess it's an obvious potential flaw. Can their really be so many Winter supporters who vote but don't post? (Not denigrating that position, I understand the pain of yet another change, but the overall tenor of every thread is totally at odds with this result).

It doesn't take many people to move a poll like this.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I cant help it. If that yellow bar hadnt grown much until a couple hours after the poll went up and then all of a sudden went past 50%, I might trust it more.
I might be less suspicious if the Winter rating poll wasnt contradicting it more, and had more votes. It went up roughly the same time, but its harder to rate Winter more than 2 stars without giving the game away isnt it?

Yes Im paranoid, yes im a tinfoil hat guy, but that doesnt make it any less suspicious.


I noticed the same thing and it did seem dodgy.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001639345/135329226_conspiracy_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg

Haha I'll ask around guys but I think this may be a story for Jennifer Benson:rolleyes::)



Myself I thought there was no real reason to add Winter to the vote at all since most would prefer not to choose his replacement if they're content with giving him the sesason or even the 3 or 4 more games people have referenced. Whatever. No reason to not knock around who would be a better coach with this team. I'm for Nichol if there's a replacement since I think Rongen has a vision to build and see through that he's excited about. Plus I would think he's pretty comfortable with the stability it has vs the first team.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I liked this poll, and used to think these actually mattered. Have to think about this a bit. No way that the discussion supports what the poll is saying. I guess it's an obvious potential flaw. Can their really be so many Winter supporters who vote but don't post? (Not denigrating that position, I understand the pain of yet another change, but the overall tenor of every thread is totally at odds with this result).

It doesn't take many people to move a poll like this.

I most certainly think their can be. Voting is a lot easier than posting. And I think your follow up explains the reason for the lack of participation.

[Jack]

I cant help it. If that yellow bar hadnt grown much until a couple hours after the poll went up and then all of a sudden went past 50%, I might trust it more.
I might be less suspicious if the Winter rating poll wasnt contradicting it more, and had more votes. It went up roughly the same time, but its harder to rate Winter more than 2 stars without giving the game away isnt it?

Yes Im paranoid, yes im a tinfoil hat guy, but that doesnt make it any less suspicious.

The poll hasn't been edited, according to the moderator logs, so it's just people voting and not posting about it. Likely people avoid doing so in the Winter Rating thread because they are expected to post their comments and justifications with their scores. Or maybe they're not happy with his performance at the moment but want to stay the course (this opinion has been put forward by quite a few posters.

There is an option, when setting up a poll, to show who voted. You also have to look at the fact that it has been the same vocal group who have been posting against Winter in many different threads. So there has been a large quantity of posts about it from a relatively small number of people (myself included). I don't claim to speak for everyone. The direction of the discussion would not seem to reflect the opinion of those who have voted, but declined to comment. Interesting, but not suspicious, in my eyes.

[TO DEVILS]

The senior squad and TFCA should be independent from each other. One shouldn't dictate what the other does and vice versa.
TFCA goal should be to produce the best players they can possibly produce, and the senior squad's goal should be to win titles.

You can debate the semantics all you want, but those are 2 simple facts.

The people hired should be hired for those two separate goals. The moment you tie one with the other you are handcuffing the team and the organization to one person, one idea, one strategy, and then when that idea, strategy or person fail, what are you left to do? This is where we stand at this moment. Left scratching our heads.

[Jack]

The senior squad and TFCA should be independent from each other. One shouldn't dictate what the other does and vice versa.
TFCA goal should be to produce the best players they can possibly produce, and the senior squad's goal should be to win titles.

You can debate the semantics all you want, but those are 2 simple facts.

The people hired should be hired for those two separate goals. The moment you tie one with the other you are handcuffing the team and the organization to one person, one idea, one strategy, and then when that idea, strategy or person fail, what are you left to do? This is where we stand at this moment. Left scratching our heads.

While on the subject of semantics, Pedro, those are not, in fact, facts. That is your opinion of what their goals should be. I happen to agree with that opinion.

[TO DEVILS]

They are facts to me, perhaps opinions to others reading it. g:D

[Jack]

I agree, but until we can substitute "are/does/is" for "should" in those statements, they will only be a dream...

[Juanito]

THIS is Winter's team. He picked them. He kept who he wanted. He set out the tactics.

Despite all this control, we have ZERO wins in seven matches. I don't know why the "Winterites" are all rallying behind this man.

He had his year to get accustomed to the league. It's time for results. Roogsy said it best, there is no accountability on this club.

[Canary10]

I think TFC fans have had too much influence over some player acquisition. We all were loud in saying sign Eckersley and Plata, in fact it was almost a condition of proof the team was still progressing over the off season. Now we find out Plata's signing cost us $500,000 in allocation money and/or salary over his contract, further hamstringing any chance we have of upgrading the team. It may still turn out ok, as he's young and still shows flashes, but is it worth it? Jury is out still.

And Eckersley - we've seriously overestimated his ability in my mind. He makes the same mistakes game in and game out. Finally Winter had the guts to pull him against RSL. Who knows what his contract has cost us in terms of allocation of money against the cap, but it's not likely to be good based on what he was earning at Burnley.

[Beach_Red]

^ This has been a problem with the Leafs, too. Let's face it, it's easier to give people the players they want than championships.

[Roogsy]

The poll hasn't been edited, according to the moderator logs, so it's just people voting and not posting about it.

I never thought it was fudged around with on a programming level. I just think it's funny how all of a sudden there is a sudden pop in a specific vote. It points to a coordinated vote, which kind of lends itself to the belief that there may be some registered users on here with an agenda, perhaps even from the team. But that's just a personal opinion.

[ExiledRed]

I never thought it was fudged around with on a programming level. I just think it's funny how all of a sudden there is a sudden pop in a specific vote. It points to a coordinated vote, which kind of lends itself to the belief that there may be some registered users on here with an agenda, perhaps even from the team. But that's just a personal opinion.

Manipulating social media to obfuscate a predominant consumer view that is embarrassing to a large corporation?

Yeah, this doesnt happen.

This is like suggesting alien lizards form a global illuminati and are secretly feeding off our brain energy.