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Pookie
04-29-2012, 03:46 PM
Ladies and Gents - a sneak peak at an article that I wrote that will run on Sportsnet this week that seeks to discuss the Canadian content issue with TFC. Long and short, we have 9 Canadians on our roster and start them routinely. Logic dictates that players from our country are developmentally behind those in the USA. See what Vancouver and Montreal are doing to help the CSA, which is the bare minimum. Why are we the developmental bitch for the CSA while Vancouver and Montreal rise in the standings?

Tactics and coaching and MLSE aside, this roster mismanagement, IMO, may be one of the biggest issues facing the club. I am posting it here for discussion purposes. Tough one for me to write given the quality of character of some of our Canadian boys.



The problem with Toronto FC may be that they have too many Canadians on it.

For a guy who has stood and chanted for our country against the likes of Ecuador and St Kitts, this reeks of blasphemy. That said, it may be one of the main reasons behind our pathetic record since 2007.

To explain this theory, one must first understand that Major League Soccer is a developmental league. It was envisioned as a domestic top tier league which could provide opportunity for American players and ultimately feed the United States’ drive for improvement in soccer performance worldwide.

As a result, they instituted a quota type system which specified the number of US born (or Domestic) players that must be on a team’s roster in order to prevent a flood of international, and presumably better players from taking spaces. In a developmental league, this makes a degree of sense.

In 2011, citing a need to ensure that Canadian teams were competitive, MLS relaxed the rules for the Canadian teams and allowed them to count US born players as “Domestic”. This simply meant that for the domestic portion of their rosters, Canadian MLS teams could use US or Canadian players. But the Canadian Soccer Association objected, citing the USA’s drive to use MLS as a developmental league and spoke up on behalf of Canadian players. We too want to improve our Canadian National Team performance and secure jobs for local kids to give them an opportunity to earn a living while playing soccer.

What followed was a compromise but an important one when you look at the performance of Toronto FC. Under the new rules, Canadian teams need to have a minimum of 3 roster spaces made available to Canadian players. However, Canadian players are still treated as “International” when it comes to US based team rosters. That means that for a Canadian to play in the MLS in the USA, they have beat out an international player.

Why does it all matter?

Simply put the talent level in Canada isn’t where it is in the United States. Canada is ranked 75th in the world while the United States has been ranked anywhere from 14th to 29th over the last 2 years. If you were going fishing for talent, where would you dip your pole?

Setting tactics and formations aside, at its most simple form soccer is a game full of 1 v 1 battles. From a pure skill perspective, if you had a player from a developmental system ranked 75th vs one from the United States, who might you expect to win? Surely, there are individual standouts that buck the trend but the law of averages dictates that a roster with relatively weaker talent is bound to lose more often than not.

But aren’t Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal in the same boat with respect to this quota system? Why is our performance so bad relative to theirs? The answer appears to be in how each chooses to manage the quota within their rosters.

The Montreal Impact are doing the bare minimum to help the CSA as they employ just 3 Canadians on their roster. Of those 3, only Patrice Bernier has played, logging 315 minutes of action in Montreal’s 810 minutes played thus far this season. The 3rd Canadian roster spot is taken with back up keeper Greg Sutton.

Vancouver Whitecaps FC only employs 4 Canadians. In their most recent game, a 1-0 victory against the Columbus Crew not 1 of those Canadians made it off the bench. Alain Rochat has logged 237 minutes of a total of 720 minutes thus far this season, making him the only Canadian to see action.

Toronto FC currently have 9 Canadians on their active roster and unlike their fellow Canadian teams they tend to use them. In their 7th loss of the season delivered this week, 4 of those Canadians were in the starting 11.

In fact, the Club’s first designated player, Julian De Guzman was brought in mainly because of his birth certificate. At the time of courting him, Manager Mo Johnston indicated “it's not about bringing in a 34- or 35-year-old, I'm looking for someone 28, 29 and I believe it should be a Canadian.”

The decision by TFC to employ more than the required number of Canadians begs the question, is this a smart way to manage the roster? Given that both Vancouver and Montreal are earning points and position in the table (3rd and 6th respectively) by following the Canadian roster quota to a minimum and using those they do have sparingly, the answer would appear to be no. I haven’t even touched the idea of roster decimation which is what happens when the Canadian National Team calls down for players and games conflict with our own.

Further, these Canadian roster players on Toronto become highly untradeable assets. Recall that the MLS Roster rules allow US born players to be counted as Domestic but the return favour is not granted. A Canadian born player does not count as a US Domestic player. That means that for a Canadian to be traded to the US, a precious “International Roster Spot” would need to used in order to fit them within the team. How likely is it that a Matt Stinson is going to beat out available international players? Not likely considering that only 8 Canadians have earned jobs with the remaining 16 MLS teams south of the border.

Toronto FC fans can talk about coaching changes and tactics in light of our horrendous performance in MLS since well… our existence. But until this fundamental philosophical issue is addressed, Toronto FC will be playing with a handicap. The team needs to decide whether we are an MLS club or simply doing the CSA a favour. I'm not sure about you but I'm not comfortable in paying the highest season ticket prices in the league just to be the “Academy” for the Canadian National Team.

Perhaps a bigger question is whether these 6 extra rosters spaces that Toronto has given to Canadian players was done for competitive reasons or something else such as marketing to local interests? Either or, both reasons appear to be failing miserably.

Follow me on twitter @Gardnerfanfuel

Auzzy
04-29-2012, 03:54 PM
Anybody else think of something completely different when reading the thread title?

Yeoman
04-29-2012, 04:02 PM
because too many people here bitched about us nothing having enough canadian players on the field at all times and the FO took that to fucking heart

Richard
04-29-2012, 04:03 PM
Anybody else think of something completely different when reading the thread title?

I read "Bieber" lol.

DoubleUp
04-29-2012, 04:04 PM
I just think the domestic rule should go both ways, so we dont feel obligated to keep Canadian kids on our roster.

Beach_Red
04-29-2012, 04:10 PM
I wish they'd make Klinsmann's report public. I wonder if the domestic quoatas were taken into account at all....

DoubleUp
04-29-2012, 04:14 PM
Honestly though! if america is our competitor.Why would they want us to develop players as good or better than theirs.

Why would the league(american) even want a canadian team winning the mls???

Pookie
04-29-2012, 04:19 PM
^ because it is a shared revenue league and the cash cow that is TFC is not giving up the milk.

The other thing that is interesting for me in all of this is that while the quota exists, we have gone "all in" when implementing it.

Montreal has 3, Vancouver has 4. Only 1 of them play for each team and even then, the 1 that plays, earns less than half the minutes available. We have 9 in total and 4 of them started the last game.

If they are the best available AND Canadian, have at it. But something tells me that the talent pool in the US is a little deeper than our current available options. Down the road this may change but for now, it isn't comparable.

Trade hampering is another curious element to our decision to use 9 roster spaces on Canadians. Seems like marketing and/or financial interests were drivers behind the decision because there is no competitive advantage and in doing so, your trade options are limited.

denime
04-29-2012, 04:22 PM
Anybody else think of something completely different when reading the thread title?

You were not the only one,who thought of something completely different when reading the thread title. ;)


Oh,almost forgot, good article Pookie

ArmenJBX
04-29-2012, 04:24 PM
Pookie:

I agree with you in that we need more American players. If people look back at my old posts, I've been saying we need MLS quality players and, most of the time, those are young, American players like Eric Avila, Luis Silva, etc etc.

I disagree with the core premise of your article, however - these Canadian players on our roster are not terrible. Ashtone Morgan, Matt Stinson, and Terry Dunfield are all serviceable, cheap options for MLS teams. Oscar Cordon, Keith Makubuya and Quillan Roberts fill out the depth.

The problem comes from USING these players instead of filling our roster with them. I cannot stress this fact enough - our academy graduates should not be the first choice in some positions AND the only choices off the bench. I'm sorry, but as long as we look to our academy, we will not find immediate success.

There is an easy solution to the issue of real depth on this team; get rid of Julian de Guzman, use the 350k towards 3, $100-115k players, and fill out the roster properly. There's a big difference when your bench has Adrian Cann and Miguel Aceval instead of Logan Emory and Doneil Henry. We need MLS quality players, we don't have them.

We are strangers in our own league.

Jack
04-29-2012, 04:26 PM
It does make sense.

Nuvinho
04-29-2012, 04:36 PM
The answer you'll get from TFC is that we want to develop local talent. Which is fine, but start now - start from guys in the academy, don't get players already developed and unable to fit the system. I am talking about 3 guys on our team that didn't come from our academy teams and are probably harder to teach them a new system.

TFC07
04-29-2012, 04:39 PM
Most of Canadian players on this team are kids who rarely play. I am not buying this article especially given some few bright spots on this team are young Canadian players.

Lol this is really just getting out of hand now. Hopefully TFC win their next game to shut people up.

ryan
04-29-2012, 04:39 PM
Lets not let this JDG disaster paint a wide picture to blame an entire nation of players. Silly article. The League MVP is a canadian and the Impact tried their asses off in the offseason to acquire canadian defender Hainault.

It really doesn't matter where the player comes from. We should get the best players we can, at the best price because of the goofy as salary rules of MLS. For 40K, Morgan, Stinson and Henry are pretty good players I want on my roster...and I mean for fuck's sake they are just kids.

Couchy81
04-29-2012, 04:43 PM
It is true and even to this day I see posts from people on here saying they'd rather lose games than field a team full of American players....

Pookie
04-29-2012, 04:53 PM
Lets not let this JDG disaster paint a wide picture to blame an entire nation of players. Silly article. The League MVP is a canadian and the Impact tried their asses off in the offseason to acquire canadian defender Hainault.

It really doesn't matter where the player comes from. We should get the best players we can, at the best price because of the goofy as salary rules of MLS. For 40K, Morgan, Stinson and Henry are pretty good players I want on my roster...and I mean for fuck's sake they are just kids.

Ryan, I'm not knocking Canadian players and in fact my premise is yours. We should get the best players we can. If they are Canadian, all the better.

We absolutely have to make room for 3 Canadians. That's the rule. So, with the other 6 spaces are you telling me that Stinson and Cordon and Dunfield are the best available players in either the USA or Canada?

Seems a little weird to me that if our talent pool is so good why Vancouver only plays one of theirs and for half the available minutes as does Montreal. Is the OSA renowned for developing talent in this country and we have the inside edge? And with this talent, only 8 players from this country have been good enough to find work and beat our International players in the USA?

Vancouver is 3rd in their conference. Montreal is 6th. We are dead last. Seems roster management might be a contributing factor.

Are we signing these kids because they are the best available or simply to promote TFC-Academy which is about the only bright spot to hang a season ticket renewal campaign on?

Or to cozy up to the CSA in order to be awarded national events at BMO? That last one is simply speculation on my part but in terms of doing our job to support the CSA's wishes, we are certainly over-delivering and hey, did you get your tickets for our qualifiers to be held exclusively at BMO? Curious... no?

ag futbol
04-29-2012, 05:04 PM
Pookie:

I agree with you in that we need more American players. If people look back at my old posts, I've been saying we need MLS quality players and, most of the time, those are young, American players like Eric Avila, Luis Silva, etc etc.

I disagree with the core premise of your article, however - these Canadian players on our roster are not terrible. Ashtone Morgan, Matt Stinson, and Terry Dunfield are all serviceable, cheap options for MLS teams. Oscar Cordon, Keith Makubuya and Quillan Roberts fill out the depth.

The problem comes from USING these players instead of filling our roster with them. I cannot stress this fact enough - our academy graduates should not be the first choice in some positions AND the only choices off the bench. I'm sorry, but as long as we look to our academy, we will not find immediate success.

There is an easy solution to the issue of real depth on this team; get rid of Julian de Guzman, use the 350k towards 3, $100-115k players, and fill out the roster properly. There's a big difference when your bench has Adrian Cann and Miguel Aceval instead of Logan Emory and Doneil Henry. We need MLS quality players, we don't have them.

We are strangers in our own league.
Agreed. And I've pondered the 2 vs. 3 DP argument as well. Two definitely seems more optimal under the currents salary structure.

The bottom portion of a MLS roster is normally filled with non-contributors anyways. Who cares if they are Canadians or US college kids? Most of them won't contribute and the ones that do won't be that different from an Ashton Morgan or Stinson, except with less upside.

ExiledRed
04-29-2012, 05:17 PM
No the real problem are the number of 'eager beavers' to be honest.

The ones that are so eager to see base attributes like grit, determination and individual talent, intellectualized to a point that only the technical intricacies are worthy of discussion.

ArmenJBX
04-29-2012, 05:18 PM
Exactly. Spots 24-30 are not that important in the end, but spots 1-18 need to be SOLID.

Do we have 18 solid players in this roster?
I don't think so.

We have:

Kocic
Eckersley
Cann
Aceval
Frings
Morgan
Avila
Dunfield
De Guzman
Silva
Lambe
Koevermans
Soolsma
Johnson
Plata

and...

um....

? Is that all. 15 players, of which maybe 12 perform well. The rest are filler players at best or substitute/reserves when required.
We need 18 players. 18 solid, MLS level players. That won't happen with 3 DPs.

Actually, if you ask me, we need to seriously reevaluate our DPs; are ANY of them worth it right now? Is DK much more valuable than, say, Mac Kandji? If Chris Pontius, or Wondo, or Maicon, are putting up those numbers, is DK's DP status worth it?

Same with the CDM's in this league, compared to Frings and de Guzman - because, right now, I'd rather have Adam Moffat, or Sam Cronin, or Kyle Beckerman, than an aging Frings and a clearly out-of-place de Guzman.

Island Man
04-29-2012, 05:19 PM
I would take Beckerman over pretty much any CM in the league.

Beach_Red
04-29-2012, 05:27 PM
It really is sad that this team has been so poorly run for so long that this is what we're talking about now.

Abou Sky
04-29-2012, 05:28 PM
Although there is SOME truth to the article it reeks of 'grasping at straws' to answer the question of why TFC is losing.

IMO Henry is going to be a giant, not a desirable pickup for US teams? GREAT, we can keep him at a discount.

Stinson is meh, but young and could be great.

Morgan is pretty freaking amazing IMO.

All of them 'cheap to keep' because of MLS rules.

Dunfield... Well, I don't know how he still gets dressed, maybe he has dirt on Winter or something.

Again, there is some truth, but a lot of these Canadian kids are good AND cheap, they add depth and we get to buy a dollar for fifty cents with some.

We need some players added, but not replaced.

Of course, being middle of the road doesn't get you readers or attention so I get the need to be a bit OTT with language.

ArmenJBX
04-29-2012, 05:34 PM
It's not about too many Canadians.
It's about not enough Americans.

We need yanks to win, plain. and. simple.

Because, really, this is an American league. Montreal saw that, Vancouver saw it, Aron Winter didn't want to acknowledge it.

I want 11 American players on this roster, one for every position.

Pookie
04-29-2012, 05:37 PM
Although there is SOME truth to the article it reeks of 'grasping at straws' to answer the question of why TFC is losing.

IMO Henry is going to be a giant, not a desirable pickup for US teams? GREAT, we can keep him at a discount.

Stinson is meh, but young and could be great.

Morgan is pretty freaking amazing IMO.

All of them 'cheap to keep' because of MLS rules.

Dunfield... Well, I don't know how he still gets dressed, maybe he has dirt on Winter or something.

Again, there is some truth, but a lot of these Canadian kids are good AND cheap, they add depth and we get to buy a dollar for fifty cents with some.

We need some players added, but not replaced.

Of course, being middle of the road doesn't get you readers or attention so I get the need to be a bit OTT with language.

Starter good or depth good? None of the 7 Canadians used in Montreal or Vancouver are good enough to start or even secure reasonable minutes.

Both clubs are playing rosters that mirror US teams in terms of American and International usage of slots.

We found 4 Canadian players worthy enough to start and have lost 7 games in total. If we offered these 4 up for trade, are there any takers? Cann, Dunfield, JDG and Morgan. Or could we replace the others that were not dressed or on the bench with an American signing that would put Dunfield, Cann, etc on the bench?

If there are 11 positions on a team and if 3 or 4 of those players could be replaced by better ones... why are we not doing it? We are simply putting out a starting roster each game that does not match up with our opponents.

Pookie
04-29-2012, 05:41 PM
... and sky, we haven't even really touched on the logic of having 4 of your 11 starters potentially available for international duty when building a roster.

Nor have we talked about the reality that US teams generally don't take Canadians on when it comes to trades because it takes away an international slot. They have to be really good (ie. Will Johnson, Dwayne De Rosario). A depth player like Stinson has virtually no trade value because of the international slot he would take. Therefore, the decision to sign 9 of our assets under the Canadian flag essentially locks us into them.

SoccMan
04-29-2012, 05:54 PM
I see some validity in this article,however, it's not difficult we simply give up too many goals. Our defenders suck all of them,yes Eckersley included,Adrian Cann sucked before he still sucks now after the injury. Aceval yes he sucks too, but I think that's one we can all agree on. Ashton Morgan he is still a kid, still has to mature they are killing him now, he should not be starting every game he should be gradually learning the trade, Doneil Henry same goes for him. Emory is also a kid who might be decent one day but he is not ready yet. What's left Harden don't even go there, the only one that for me showed that he might belong and can be legit is the Jamaican player Williams who in the little that he played last season looked pretty good. Eckersley was having problems getting any playing time in the lower divisions in England he hardly played and I can see why. Adrian Cann played a little in the lower divisions in Scandanavia nothing great and even there found it hard to getting a starting position. Therefore, with these kind of defenders is it any wonder we give up so many goals, it should not be a surprise!

Beach_Red
04-29-2012, 06:29 PM
Eckersley and Cann would be fine if the other two guys on the backline were better. In its entire history this team has only had about three games with a real defender when Olivier Teliby was here. How many years ago was that now?

ryan
04-29-2012, 06:37 PM
Ryan, I'm not knocking Canadian players and in fact my premise is yours. We should get the best players we can. If they are Canadian, all the better.

We absolutely have to make room for 3 Canadians. That's the rule. So, with the other 6 spaces are you telling me that Stinson and Cordon and Dunfield are the best available players in either the USA or Canada?

Seems a little weird to me that if our talent pool is so good why Vancouver only plays one of theirs and for half the available minutes as does Montreal. Is the OSA renowned for developing talent in this country and we have the inside edge? And with this talent, only 8 players from this country have been good enough to find work and beat our International players in the USA?

Vancouver is 3rd in their conference. Montreal is 6th. We are dead last. Seems roster management might be a contributing factor.

Are we signing these kids because they are the best available or simply to promote TFC-Academy which is about the only bright spot to hang a season ticket renewal campaign on?

Or to cozy up to the CSA in order to be awarded national events at BMO? That last one is simply speculation on my part but in terms of doing our job to support the CSA's wishes, we are certainly over-delivering and hey, did you get your tickets for our qualifiers to be held exclusively at BMO? Curious... no?

Are Stinson, Cordon and Dunfield the worst 3 players in the MLS? One thing to note about these 3, Cordon never makes the bench and Stinson/Dunfield are mainly playing because a) we've suffered injuries at MF and b) our DP mid JDG is not worth starting.
So we have 2 bench/reserve players and 1 reserve here. What could we be doing different? We're up against the cap, so it's not as if we can drop these guys and go spend 100K on someone else. So who are we to spend Cordon's 32K on? Stinson's 42K? Dunfield is a decent argument at 65K you can do much better..

I don't really see this as a "Canadian" problem.


A club should have young players coming up through it's Academy (sorry to say but this is Canada and that's what's coming through our system), so what are you suggesting we do about that? Move our academy to another country then? Develop players for the US program? I get the whole "OMG WE HAVE TO WIN NAO!" crap that's going around because of the years of futility this club has had, but lets stop acting like players like Morgan and Henry haven't shown potential of being good players in this league. It's not like other MLS teams don't have young players doing the same, their core team just happens to be performing better and getting results we aren't.

It's not the Canadian players fault that Johnson has missed wide about a billion headers inside the 6yd box this season, nor is it their fault Frings dun goofed 2 straight games, or Koevermans keeps drilling them into the keeper. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if those players executed and we had 7-10pts right now.


We're dead last because many reasons, having Canadian players is not one of them. Our most dangerous threat off a corner scored a goal last night, as he showed during the London qualifiers, and he's a Canadian. Perhaps we should bench him cause he's a Canuck and lob more to the American Johnson, who's having such great success right?


As for the insinuation that TFC fields Canadians to get CMNT matches at BMO, you're off base. CMNT plays at BMO because BMO is actually the "National Soccer Team Stadium" and are obligated to play matches at the venue on an annual basis. There's no tie to TFC for that.

Pookie
04-29-2012, 07:12 PM
Are Stinson, Cordon and Dunfield the worst 3 players in the MLS? One thing to note about these 3, Cordon never makes the bench and Stinson/Dunfield are mainly playing because a) we've suffered injuries at MF and b) our DP mid JDG is not worth starting.
So we have 2 bench/reserve players and 1 reserve here. What could we be doing different? We're up against the cap, so it's not as if we can drop these guys and go spend 100K on someone else. So who are we to spend Cordon's 32K on? Stinson's 42K? Dunfield is a decent argument at 65K you can do much better..

I don't really see this as a "Canadian" problem.


A club should have young players coming up through it's Academy (sorry to say but this is Canada and that's what's coming through our system), so what are you suggesting we do about that? Move our academy to another country then? Develop players for the US program? I get the whole "OMG WE HAVE TO WIN NAO!" crap that's going around because of the years of futility this club has had, but lets stop acting like players like Morgan and Henry haven't shown potential of being good players in this league. It's not like other MLS teams don't have young players doing the same, their core team just happens to be performing better and getting results we aren't.

It's not the Canadian players fault that Johnson has missed wide about a billion headers inside the 6yd box this season, nor is it their fault Frings dun goofed 2 straight games, or Koevermans keeps drilling them into the keeper. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if those players executed and we had 7-10pts right now.


We're dead last because many reasons, having Canadian players is not one of them. Our most dangerous threat off a corner scored a goal last night, as he showed during the London qualifiers, and he's a Canadian. Perhaps we should bench him cause he's a Canuck and lob more to the American Johnson, who's having such great success right?


As for the insinuation that TFC fields Canadians to get CMNT matches at BMO, you're off base. CMNT plays at BMO because BMO is actually the "National Soccer Team Stadium" and are obligated to play matches at the venue on an annual basis. There's no tie to TFC for that.

The Academy is definitely the way to go. However, you are drawing from players that are just recently removed from a system that has us at 75th in the world. The Ontario Soccer Association (and CSA) aren't exactly having their development model copied worldwide. The Academy will pay long term dividends with the odd diamond in the rough.

This isn't a Canadian vs American debate. Morgan may well indeed have earned his spot on the roster and there is an argument that he could beat out American. It is a debate about players winning a job based on merit. If there are 3 spots that must be used on Canadians fine. Was there a competition for the other 6 spots? Is Terry Dunfield the best available mid-fielder in North America?

As for the CSA-BMO Connection, "National Soccer Stadium" is more of a marketing term than anything else. CSA is not obligated to use it. For example, Saputo Stadium hosted the 2008 qualifiers despite our "National Soccer Stadium" status. Consideration was given to Vancouver and Montreal but their facilities supposedly weren't ready at the time for the earlier games. This next round and the Centennial match with the USA is pure choice. MLSE shares in the management of BMO. CSA opted to play it there and lobbied the MLS for the Canadian quota and we have given more jobs to Canadian players than the other 2 teams combined. Connection? Can't prove it. Just seems curious.

TFC07
04-29-2012, 07:42 PM
So if you're going to give this much credit for Canadian players hurting TFC, then wouldn't it be fair to give credit to Canadian players for making it far and beating up best MLS teams (American teams filled with best American players in MLS) in CCL?

narduch
04-29-2012, 07:45 PM
Sounds like some people have found a new scapegoat...

TFC07
04-29-2012, 07:48 PM
Sounds like some people have found a new scapegoat...

Ignore the OP. He is trying to get attention for his article.

Problem with TFC is management and lack of quality vet CB! TFC do have talent to become a contender in this league, but it just they're just one or two piece away and having a clueless managment that is hurting them.

CoachGT
04-29-2012, 08:18 PM
As for the CSA-BMO Connection, "National Soccer Stadium" is more of a marketing term than anything else. CSA is not obligated to use it. For example, Saputo Stadium hosted the 2008 qualifiers despite our "National Soccer Stadium" status. Consideration was given to Vancouver and Montreal but their facilities supposedly weren't ready at the time for the earlier games. This next round and the Centennial match with the USA is pure choice. MLSE shares in the management of BMO. CSA opted to play it there and lobbied the MLS for the Canadian quota and we have given more jobs to Canadian players than the other 2 teams combined. Connection? Can't prove it. Just seems curious.

From what I had been led to believe, the players were given the choice of where to play by the CNMT staff. Toronto is a natural for players comnig from Europe and around North America because it is an airline "hub" - most major airlines land here. That isn't always true of Montreal, Edmonton, Calgary or Vancouver. It would make sense that players would prefer to play here, especially since most "home" games haven't been as such anyway (such as the Honduran contingent in Montreal a couple of years back).

If things are being done at the players' convenience (and if more of them play in Toronto anyway) and Toronto has as good as or a better pitch than the other stadiums in Canada, then where else would the players want to play? Get in and get out with the least travel time possible, good amenities, a professional staff available (many players have commented on the quality of the training staff and facilities available here) and it leaves little question as to where the players want to play.

And if we continue bringing a solid fan base to games, it will make that all the better! Players will have another reason to want to come to Toronto!

As far as CSA and Canadian player development goes, there have always been rumblings throughout the US in the coaching ranks that MLS was intended to be a US development league (there was an article about it in an NSCAA Journal a while back). I seem to recall a discussion I had with Mojo a while back where he was pushing to have the Canadian quota reduced because there were not enough players of high enough quality to be competitive, so Toronto may have been one to try and push that. In the first couple of years, I believe the quota was 6 Canadians. Add to that a general Toronto philosophy that they wanted to pay more fairly than some other clubs (remember the first year the minimum salary was $13,500) which meant that Toronto would field a smaller roster than some other clubs (I think we were at 21 or 22 during Carver's time, even though the roster max was 25). All to say that the "answer" to the short roster was to use academy grads, some of whom have turned into legitimate players (I think that Morgan is something special).

Pookie
04-29-2012, 08:28 PM
Ignore the OP. He is trying to get attention for his article.

Problem with TFC is management and lack of quality vet CB! TFC do have talent to become a contender in this league, but it just they're just one or two piece away and having a clueless managment that is hurting them.

Sure because Sportsnet counts page views, particularly those without direct links to their site, on the RPB website and then sells that to advertisers as hits on their site :facepalm:

Could be just something that folks might want to discuss.

So, when Don Garber was quoted in 2010 when asked about pending changes to the Canadian quota and he stated:

"I'm hesitant to give any detail because we are still in discussions with the CSA of what those changes will be,” Garber told reporters during a conference call.

"Those changes will help keep the Canadian teams competitive and at the same time provide the CSA with whatever value they're looking for."

... he was looking for what, attention?

Or when the quota was dropped and John Molinaro reported that:

"The thought process was that we would start with three this year and then look at it at the end of [the 2011 season] and consider possible increases to that number," said MLS executive vice-president Todd Durbin.

Last year, officials from both TFC and the Whitecaps made public statements about the Canadian quota being eliminated. MLS commissioner Don Garber then revealed he was involved in talks with the Canadian Soccer Association, the sport's governing body in Canada, about making changes to the league's Canadian quota.

The reduction of the quota from eight to three players appears to be a compromise between MLS and the CSA.

Opponents of the quota have said the Canadian player pool isn't deep enough to sustain it, especially with two more teams from Canada on the way. MLS maintained it was trying to balance that with the concerns of the CSA, which wants to provide as many opportunities as it can for Canadian players.

... this is all just a made up problem and throwing the Canadians under the bus?

Yes, just searching for a scape goat. No one was ever concerned about the impact of quotas on our competitiveness of our team, you know, because we have such a rich history of competitiveness and achievement. ;)

And when TFC approached the league about concern about the quotas being at 8, then got it dropped to 3, and then they sign 9.... repeat... complained about 8 impacting their competitiveness, got the number to 3 and then signed 9.... that doesn't ring alarm bells about mismanagement?

Pookie
04-29-2012, 08:32 PM
From what I had been led to believe, the players were given the choice of where to play by the CNMT staff. Toronto is a natural for players comnig from Europe and around North America because it is an airline "hub" - most major airlines land here. That isn't always true of Montreal, Edmonton, Calgary or Vancouver. It would make sense that players would prefer to play here, especially since most "home" games haven't been as such anyway (such as the Honduran contingent in Montreal a couple of years back)....


I don't disagree Coach. Though there have been a number of complaints about the lack of support in Toronto for the home side. Montreal is also an easy in and easy out option in the Eastern Time Zone.

Again, I can't say there is a link. Only saying that the CSA has a choice and opted for Toronto which has the employed the most number of Canadian players. Something that the CSA has actively lobbied the league for and received a concession as a result of keeping a Canadian quota in place. Those facts may be mutually exclusive.

Morgan is indeed a keeper. One of the few who may earn his place on a roster with or without quotas.

Jeff s
04-29-2012, 09:05 PM
Sorry but I disagree with this article completely.

Morgan imo is a solid player. He's one of the VERY few defenders who doesn't makes a game changing mistakes each week.
Henry, imo should've been starting since last season. I don't know what people are so scared about starting this guy. He hasn't made the mistakes like the other CB's have, on top of that, he's our biggest (and lets be real, our only threat) on set pieces.
Stinson is a decent depth player.
Dunfield, okay I give you that, he sucks.
De Guzman, despite what others say, I don't really have a problem with him.
Cann a solid CB. but does need to work on distribution.
Cordon is a guy that gets overlooked to much. Should get a lot more playing time.

But whats crazy is that, most of these guys are young. They haven't even hit their prime yet. Once they do, I'm sure the American teams would love it if they joined their teams.

TFC07
04-29-2012, 09:05 PM
Sure because Sportsnet counts page views, particularly those without direct links to their site, on the RPB website and then sells that to advertisers as hits on their site :facepalm:

Could be just something that folks might want to discuss.

So, when Don Garber was quoted in 2010 when asked about pending changes to the Canadian quota and he stated:

"I'm hesitant to give any detail because we are still in discussions with the CSA of what those changes will be,” Garber told reporters during a conference call.

"Those changes will help keep the Canadian teams competitive and at the same time provide the CSA with whatever value they're looking for."

... he was looking for what, attention?

Or when the quota was dropped and John Molinaro reported that:

"The thought process was that we would start with three this year and then look at it at the end of [the 2011 season] and consider possible increases to that number," said MLS executive vice-president Todd Durbin.

Last year, officials from both TFC and the Whitecaps made public statements about the Canadian quota being eliminated. MLS commissioner Don Garber then revealed he was involved in talks with the Canadian Soccer Association, the sport's governing body in Canada, about making changes to the league's Canadian quota.

The reduction of the quota from eight to three players appears to be a compromise between MLS and the CSA.

Opponents of the quota have said the Canadian player pool isn't deep enough to sustain it, especially with two more teams from Canada on the way. MLS maintained it was trying to balance that with the concerns of the CSA, which wants to provide as many opportunities as it can for Canadian players.

... this is all just a made up problem and throwing the Canadians under the bus?

Yes, just searching for a scape goat. No one was ever concerned about the impact of quotas on our competitiveness of our team, you know, because we have such a rich history of competitiveness and achievement. ;)

And when TFC approached the league about concern about the quotas being at 8, then got it dropped to 3, and then they sign 9.... repeat... complained about 8 impacting their competitiveness, got the number to 3 and then signed 9.... that doesn't ring alarm bells about mismanagement?

This was just an excuse use by MO JOHNSON even though he failed to produce a good team. Mo Johnson used every excuse out there to survive which it worked for 5 years for him. If you look at Montreal record right now, they're not even playoff team. Vancouver haven't proven anything yet.

If TFC wins NCC (again) who will get the credit?

The season is still young!

Your article is a joke and sounds very Mo Johnsonish right now. Btw, you still haven't answer my question regarding successful run TFC made in CCL beating best of MLS teams.

ExiledRed
04-29-2012, 09:10 PM
If TFC wins NCC (again) who will get the credit?


If nobody is going to take the blame for the league results, nobody should take credit for winning the NCC. Simple.

Pookie
04-29-2012, 09:22 PM
@TFC07 I believe that Earl Cochrane was the TFC voice in the quota discussions. Mo was gone in September of 2010 and this change was announced in Jan of 2011 with meetings through the fall of 2010.

As for TFC in CCL, I am on iPad now but if you look it up you will find that Morgan was a key contributor. As I said, he would make a team quota or not. In matches we won, we generally only started 2 (including Morgan) or started one and subbed in someone like Dunfield. CONCACAF website has all the game reports.

The theory is simple though. Put our starting 11 up against other teams in the league and are we talent for talent ahead of them? I'm going to quote Roogsy on this, for a $6m payroll we sure as hell should be. If not, why are we handicapping ourselves by not using roster rules to our advantage and picking best available to us?

ryan
04-29-2012, 10:10 PM
The Academy is definitely the way to go. However, you are drawing from players that are just recently removed from a system that has us at 75th in the world. The Ontario Soccer Association (and CSA) aren't exactly having their development model copied worldwide. The Academy will pay long term dividends with the odd diamond in the rough.

This isn't a Canadian vs American debate. Morgan may well indeed have earned his spot on the roster and there is an argument that he could beat out American. It is a debate about players winning a job based on merit. If there are 3 spots that must be used on Canadians fine. Was there a competition for the other 6 spots? Is Terry Dunfield the best available mid-fielder in North America?

As for the CSA-BMO Connection, "National Soccer Stadium" is more of a marketing term than anything else. CSA is not obligated to use it. For example, Saputo Stadium hosted the 2008 qualifiers despite our "National Soccer Stadium" status. Consideration was given to Vancouver and Montreal but their facilities supposedly weren't ready at the time for the earlier games. This next round and the Centennial match with the USA is pure choice. MLSE shares in the management of BMO. CSA opted to play it there and lobbied the MLS for the Canadian quota and we have given more jobs to Canadian players than the other 2 teams combined. Connection? Can't prove it. Just seems curious.

Being 75th in the world isn't really as much value as you give it. A summation of the "last 4 years of Canada's performance" has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with our U23 players, who have contributed NOTHING to that ranking. You act as if Canada just has a bunch of shitty footballers in general when the truth is over the past decades we haven't even developed any. We have the capability of becoming a top 40 nation based on a variety of reasons should we actually get our shit together, but that's a different argument for a different thread. Simply put, even in our current disarray, the addition of the academy's and professional clubs in recent years will grow our quality and number of professional players (qualfying for the U17 WC and almost making the Olympics is sure proof of the youngsters improving). This needs to be understood before you criticize all Canadian players as a whole. Canada will not be like it's been forever and there's evident reason to suggest we are improving and should continue to as the American's did with the rise of their domestic clubs.

What proof do you have that Dunfield is on our roster because he's a Canuck?

As for where the CMNT plays, there's also the connection that during the previous round of WCQ we had the best attendance we've had, I think ever. Perhaps it's a matter of building on that? Perhaps it's a matter of the players wanting a "home" as they have been quoted as stating they are happy that they have a field that finally feels like home? There's many reasons to suggest why they are playing in Toronto, neither of us have the concrete proof of the real reason, only logical connections to support our points which really doesn't give either of us much to stand on.



I'm sorry but TFC's problem is beyond our number of Canucks on the roster. I personally don't think it's a problem at all, but if someone wants to argue it is sure....I ultimately don't see how it's anywhere close to the problem we have with our team's failures, when many are tied to non Canadian players. If we replaced Stinson/Henry/etc with a bunch of 40K scrubs from South America...would that make Johnson/Plata/Koevermans score more goals? Would that make Frings not make the mistakes he's been making? Would that make Aceval not a fud? Take back Emory's gaff vs whoever the fuck it was, or his red card? Or heal Frei's leg?

Cashcleaner
04-30-2012, 02:24 AM
Sorry but I disagree with this article completely.

Morgan imo is a solid player. He's one of the VERY few defenders who doesn't makes a game changing mistakes each week.
Henry, imo should've been starting since last season. I don't know what people are so scared about starting this guy. He hasn't made the mistakes like the other CB's have, on top of that, he's our biggest (and lets be real, our only threat) on set pieces.
Stinson is a decent depth player.
Dunfield, okay I give you that, he sucks.
De Guzman, despite what others say, I don't really have a problem with him.
Cann a solid CB. but does need to work on distribution.
Cordon is a guy that gets overlooked to much. Should get a lot more playing time.

But whats crazy is that, most of these guys are young. They haven't even hit their prime yet. Once they do, I'm sure the American teams would love it if they joined their teams.

I can't argue with much of Jeff's post here.

For all of the faults of guys like Morgan, Cordon, or Stinson; they're still young and can improve their game if they have the right trainers. Out of all the Canadians that get any playing time, it's really only Dunfield and JDG that I've been truly underwhelmed with. Pookie postulates that the problem with TFC may be that there are too many Canadians on the team, and I just think that's really one of the last places we should be pointing figures to explain why this club is the way it is.

Toronto FC has fielded quite a few talented Canadian players on it's roster since it's inception (ie: Jim Brennen, DeRo, etc.) and I certainly hope we continue that tradition.

Abou Sky
04-30-2012, 05:47 AM
... and sky, we haven't even really touched on the logic of having 4 of your 11 starters potentially available for international duty when building a roster.

Nor have we talked about the reality that US teams generally don't take Canadians on when it comes to trades because it takes away an international slot. They have to be really good (ie. Will Johnson, Dwayne De Rosario). A depth player like Stinson has virtually no trade value because of the international slot he would take. Therefore, the decision to sign 9 of our assets under the Canadian flag essentially locks us into them.

You have the issue of roster decimation no matter who is on the roster.

I agree we should have more Americans, they come pretty cheap and can be a tradeable asset.

Like I said with Canadians NOT being as 'in demand' because of domestic rules, it cuts both ways. We get to keep them on the cheap because they 'have nowhere else to go' (besides Van and MTL) in the MLS.

Dunfield and Cann both cost a pretty penny by MLS standards, and I agree that likely we could get better bang for our buck.

Stinson, Henry and Morgan are not replaceable at current salaries with US players.

Like I said, it just seems like everyone is trying to figure out why TFC is losing and it seems like this article is a bit wide of the goal as far as theories go.

Much respect, I do enjoy your writing.

Pookie
04-30-2012, 06:52 AM
^ thanks for the comments. I do enjoy this discussion.

It's an emotional issue. Particularly since these are not only Canadian kids but some of them are local. We've met them and respect them. To suggest that the quota that gave them a chance is actually hurting us seems cruel.

That said, take the emotion out of it. The "facts" of the matter are that:

- TFC has not been competitive through their existence
- Vancouver entered the league with a concern over the availability of talent
- Both lobbied the league to reduce the Canadian quota
- The league agreed, citing competitiveness
- CSA objected citing development
- Compromise was reached, quota now at 3
- Montreal is at quota. 1 of their 3 is used on a back up keeper. They don't play any of them frequently
- Vancouver is one above quota. Only 1 ever plays and is a sub for the most part
- We have 9. 4 of whom started the last game
- Vancouver and Montreal are both more "competitive" than we are as evidenced by their position in the standings (3rd and 6th respectively)

Why is this so? Ryan's question really gets to the heart of the matter:



What proof do you have that Dunfield is on our roster because he's a Canuck?


I don't have any proof to suggest that he was selected over US Domestic players because of his birth certificate.

But the counter point is also true. We do not have any proof to say that he beat out US Domestic players for a roster spot... check that... a starting spot. A fair question is whether or not our scouting and "talent identification" resources are being used effectively.

Said another way, through our fishing in the "Canadian talent waters" we have identified 9 MLS calibre players. Some of them might be here without a quota, such as Morgan. However, given that the quota is 3 that means 6 of those identified are (or at least should be) better than all other available talent. We have seemingly tapped into a rich pool of player development that no other MLS club sees.

And while we can say that perhaps no one is interested in the Canadians in the USA because of the Roster Rules against Canadian imports, I'd offer two points. You have to be really good to get work in the USA (Will, Dwayne, etc). Is anyone trading for our "really good" players?

More importantly, those roster rules are well known. To stock your team with what are largely untradeable assets seems pretty ridiculous from a team building perspective. Not only do we appear to be limiting our signings to Canadian players we are limiting our trade options as well.

Greatest Ripoff
04-30-2012, 08:01 AM
I don't disagree Coach. Though there have been a number of complaints about the lack of support in Toronto for the home side. Montreal is also an easy in and easy out option in the Eastern Time Zone.

Again, I can't say there is a link. Only saying that the CSA has a choice and opted for Toronto which has the employed the most number of Canadian players. Something that the CSA has actively lobbied the league for and received a concession as a result of keeping a Canadian quota in place. Those facts may be mutually exclusive.

Morgan is indeed a keeper. One of the few who may earn his place on a roster with or without quotas.

Toronto is the only SSS with real grass and that is what the CMNT players want to play on. Toronto is also easiest to get to and requires the minimum amount of travel for players coming from Europe. They also have training facility that they prefer in Alliston. Please take the tinfoil hat off.

Also this article is garbage. Toronto sports 'journalism' has sunk to a new low.

jabbronies
04-30-2012, 08:16 AM
I think with the whole philosophy of getting players through the academy will see this number of Canadians on our team greatly increase.
Unless we start to trade pieces with RSL or other 4-3-3 based clubs on the regular, It'll be the academy where we will be seeing the players coming from.

Roogsy
04-30-2012, 08:16 AM
There is no such thing as too much Beaver.


Ever. :p









And I thought all blogs were supposed to go in the blog thread?

Pookie
04-30-2012, 09:49 AM
I think with the whole philosophy of getting players through the academy will see this number of Canadians on our team greatly increase.
Unless we start to trade pieces with RSL or other 4-3-3 based clubs on the regular, It'll be the academy where we will be seeing the players coming from.

Which is kind of puzzling when you consider that TFC joined Vancouver in asking for the quota to be lowered.

They announced that they invested $17M into the Academy on Jan 24th, 2011. Which means that while supporting a plan that would eliminate the Canadian quota for Vancouver (and Montreal), they were strategically investing in a program that would see more Canadian players developed and give them an advantage over other clubs, including Vancouver and Montreal.

Why fight for Vancouver? If they believed in the quality of players that would come from the program, they would have a competitive advantage over them. Vancouver said thank you very much, does the bare minimum... shipped Dunfield off to Toronto and sit 3rd in their conference.

Since they were finding that identifying Canadian talent to be a significant enough challenge to lobby the league while we supposedly had a solution, we could have screwed them and given ourselves an advantage for the foreseeable future in both the MLS and NCC.

But instead we join the call to have the quota lowered, knowing we are making this investment and go ahead and sign more than the original quota that we lobbied to have lowered?

Mismanagement abounds.

Abou Sky
04-30-2012, 10:12 AM
And while we can say that perhaps no one is interested in the Canadians in the USA because of the Roster Rules against Canadian imports, I'd offer two points. You have to be really good to get work in the USA (Will, Dwayne, etc). Is anyone trading for our "really good" players?

More importantly, those roster rules are well known. To stock your team with what are largely untradeable assets seems pretty ridiculous from a team building perspective. Not only do we appear to be limiting our signings to Canadian players we are limiting our trade options as well.

Again, it cuts both ways. We may not be able to trade them out, but they may end up not being picked by a US team over a US player who for the sake of argument is exactly the same in all respects.

Here is the picture:
Ashtone Morgan (Canadian)
Evil Ashtone (US)

Both are the same in all respects (for the sake of argument)

Evil may get $75k to play in US, Ashtone may not get the offer or get offered significantly less because of the International spot he will take up.

TFC now gets to keep Ashtone for $65k because US team offered him $60k

I know this is all oversimplified but it seems to me the rules work to Canadian club's advantage not vice versa.

ALL THAT SAID: Yes, we should have more Americans on the team, doesn't cost us more and we are allowed, 'game the system' in every way possible to get an advantage. Eventually I hope Canadians start counting as domestic for US teams and no more quotas because they won't be needed because every team will have 2-3 Canadian players on it.

ArmenJBX
04-30-2012, 10:20 AM
Ashtone Morgan is perhaps the only Canadian player that should be playing for Toronto FC right now.

I know we all want our Canadians to succeed but it's been two years. This isn't enough time for an academy player to become vital for Toronto FC. We can certainly sign these players but we shouldn't rely on these players.

That's the issue.

That's the problem. We RELY on players who are not yet ready to be relied on. Coupled with de Guzman taking up cap space that can be used towards three solid MLS quality players, and you see that Toronto FC is not built as an MLS side. It also explains our successes in the CCL - we are a strong side but not a strong MLS side.

We need an expansion draft, badly, because we're missing the key ingredient to MLS success - MLS players. For every Ashtone Morgan, we need a Tony Beltran. We don't have that.

Pookie
04-30-2012, 11:31 AM
^ agreed.

@sky - though the focus of this was on quota and birth certificates I'd alter your statement regarding needing more Americans slightly to say that we need the best players available for that position. If they happen to be Canadian all the better.

I would love to see us scour NA for talent but I shudder at the thought of what our scouting budget really is. For a team that spends $6M on payroll and $17M on an academy proram, we should have one of the best scouting departments in the league that can rate any player on merit. My gut tells me that we are fairly lax there and are putting a lot of hope in the Academy to be able to produce talent, immediately, in order to make up for deficiencies in being able to identify players within North America.

If the 6 players selected above our quota are not indeed the best in North America, that would suggest that the strategy above is indeed close to the truth.

We can talk about changing the chef and/or the restaurant owner but if we don't go looking for the best ingredients, the food will still be inedible.

Couchy81
04-30-2012, 12:10 PM
Pookie postulates that the problem with TFC may be that there are too many Canadians on the team, and I just think that's really one of the last places we should be pointing figures to explain why this club is the way it is.

Toronto FC has fielded quite a few talented Canadian players on it's roster since it's inception (ie: Jim Brennen, DeRo, etc.) and I certainly hope we continue that tradition.

When the team is in the situation it is in now, no area of discussion should be exempt from examination. It could very well be a piece of the puzzle that is this TFC nightmare. Obviously key Canadian players will stand out, but for every one that stands out, there are another two or three that stand out for completely opposite reasons.

BayernTFC
04-30-2012, 01:16 PM
I don't agree with the premise of the article, however, I do feel it has been a good start for fomenting discussion. I think the key to the Canadian content issue in MLS lies here:


The reduction of the quota from eight to three players appears to be a compromise between MLS and the CSA.

Opponents of the quota have said the Canadian player pool isn't deep enough to sustain it, especially with two more teams from Canada on the way. MLS maintained it was trying to balance that with the concerns of the CSA, which wants to provide as many opportunities as it can for Canadian players.Forcing a quota while in a situation where the talent pool is small, and when other teams already have the best Canadian talent under contract, creates the conditions for inflated salaries and overpayment. The problem would have been exacerbated with Vancouver and Montreal joining MLS in quick succession. In a salary capped league, salary inflation is deadly. The Canadian player quota needed to be addressed until conditions are improved at a later date.

I think the rules for players taking up roster spots 25-30, and the home grown player rules, have been the main reason for TFC employing more Canadians than required. TFC management decided to make the Academy a focal point for development and future team progress. I don't see anything wrong with TFC trying to build awareness of the academy and trying to promote their investment by graduating a few academy prospects to the senior squad. All MLS teams employ some prospects. Would TFC's situation be that much different in regards to Canadian content without the contracts of JDG and Adrian Cann?


Because, really, this is an American league. Montreal saw that, Vancouver saw it, Aron Winter didn't want to acknowledge it.

I want 11 American players on this roster, one for every position.


Further, these Canadian roster players on Toronto become highly untradeable assets. Recall that the MLS Roster rules allow US born players to be counted as Domestic but the return favour is not granted. A Canadian born player does not count as a US Domestic player. That means that for a Canadian to be traded to the US, a precious “International Roster Spot” would need to used in order to fit them within the team. How likely is it that a Matt Stinson is going to beat out available international players? Not likely considering that only 8 Canadians have earned jobs with the remaining 16 MLS teams south of the border.

MLS is an American league and there were bound to be difficulties trying to integrate a handful of Canadian teams into a US league with complicated rules designed to develop US talent. The foreign talent restrictions, created to protect the integrity of US player development, has posed a unique challenge for Canadian sides. Is it any easier for TFC to trade an international player to a US squad than it is a Canadian player? Were there any MLS teams lining up to trade for Amadou Sanyang, Martin Saric or Mikael Yourassowsky? I would say TFC has a long running experiment with trades. What would TFC's successful trade to unsuccessful trade ratio be considered? Are other teams in MLS relying on trades as much now as in the past? TFC's squad is currently 21.4% US and 35.7% Canadian. Should we really be worried about US content in the team or just consider the best players available? Is it as simple as stating more US players are needed? How many quality US players desire to play in Toronto? TFC has started many US players over the years. Did TFC perform any better with them in the line-up? In the end, it still comes down to identifying talent and personnel choices. Who decides to trade away Edson Buddle, Todd Dunivant and Sam Cronin? Why are Chad Barrett, Ty Harden, Dan Gargan, Jacob Peterson and Nick Garcia kept and used so heavily?

Pookie
04-30-2012, 01:55 PM
I don't agree with the premise of the article, however, I do feel it has been a good start for fomenting discussion. I think the key to the Canadian content issue in MLS lies here:

Forcing a quota while in a situation where the talent pool is small, and when other teams already have the best Canadian talent under contract, creates the conditions for inflated salaries and overpayment. The problem would have been exacerbated with Vancouver and Montreal joining MLS in quick succession. In a salary capped league, salary inflation is deadly. The Canadian player quota needed to be addressed until conditions are improved at a later date.

If true, why would there be a movement to lower the quota? Both the teams and the league agreed to remove it entirely but the CSA balked and the comprise of 3 was reached. The league and the teams would want to avoid inflated salaries and overpayment.


I think the rules for players taking up roster spots 25-30, and the home grown player rules, have been the main reason for TFC employing more Canadians than required. TFC management decided to make the Academy a focal point for development and future team progress. I don't see anything wrong with TFC trying to build awareness of the academy and trying to promote their investment by graduating a few academy prospects to the senior squad. All MLS teams employ some prospects. Would TFC's situation be that much different in regards to Canadian content without the contracts of JDG and Adrian Can?

The difference is that TFC isn't really using them as depth players. We had 4 Canadian starters in our line up last week. Vancouver only plays one and he plays less than half the minutes. So too does Montreal.

I think Morgan could earn a starting spot on any club and Cann to some extent as well. Dunfield? Stinson? even JDG?

I would agree with you that we should be concerned about the best talent available for the domestic roster slots. Given the small talent pool here and the success of our fellow Canadian teams (relative to ours) which tend to use US players in their starting 11, I see some serious question marks as to whether we do have the best talent or simply the most convenient.

And if the best, do we have a robust scouting department that can validate that Dunfield is the best available mid-fielder in North America?

ArmenJBX
04-30-2012, 02:44 PM
When players like Chad Barrett, Sam Cronin and Todd Dunivant are passed on, we have a problem.
Not because they're not good enough, but because of the message it sends.

Scenario time. Eric Avila is cut from our team. What does he do?
He tells his best friends from UC Santa Barbara, Gabriel and Michael Farfan (A very good RB and RM, respectively) that Toronto FC is no place for an American player. He will tell them that the TFC Academy graduates get benefits they don't, can make mistakes and won't be sold. He'll tell them that Toronto FC keeps a player like de Guzman on their bench. He'll tell them that he's glad to be back in the US where American players are supported by a system that wants to develop AMERICAN players.

We focus on Canadian players - that's good for our national team, no doubt.

But when we play like a Canadian team and not an American team, it's going to show, because when USA plays Canada, how often does Canada actually win?

Now, with the Farfan brothers turned off from Toronto FC, if Philly decides to trade them, and they end up in Toronto, do you think they are going to be receptive? As opposed to being traded to a team like Real Salt Lake, where American players such as themselves are seen for what they are and do just fine, so long as they work hard?

The culture of our team is made to benefit Toronto players - Aron Winter said he wanted this city to grow it's own players, which is a good philosophy - FOR US in Toronto, but in reality, are we really an MLS side, or strangers in our own league?

I'd say Aron Winter came here with the intention of changing the club, and in a way, he has. He also isolated our approach and made us a single entity in a league. If it works, it works, and we become heroes because we play a style that is both locally developed and effective. If it doesn't, it hurts us badly because we have not adapted to what the MLS demands of its teams.

So help me, I've been looking for the right words to express this thought and I'm seriously considering not hitting the post button right now because this would be a decent article (or not? :D) but I love you RPB's so much I'm going to post it here instead, in the hopes that the points made here warrant a click of that user rep button.

God I love the Burger Priest.

Pookie
04-30-2012, 03:01 PM
^ I think it is a fantastic point and may be the underlying cause (or at least contributing cause) to the "Canadian sense of entitlement" or "rift" that we kept hearing about through the years.

TFC Via Buffalo
04-30-2012, 03:07 PM
I guess I'll chime in with not having a Canadian skew on this. I just want the best 11 players on the field, American or Canadian or whatever, so we can win. Are Stinson, Henry and Morgan good? Yep, but they are young and should be developed further playing behind or around better veterans then what they've got around them right now. Give me a guy who can get the job done and give me 3 points. Who cares what flag sits next to his name in the program. When the Canadian guys we sign are worthy of getting in, then let them loose.

BayernTFC
04-30-2012, 03:09 PM
If true, why would there be a movement to lower the quota? Both the teams and the league agreed to remove it entirely but the CSA balked and the comprise of 3 was reached. The league and the teams would want to avoid inflated salaries and overpayment. I'm not sure I understand what you are arguing. The quota causes the problem. It was reduced. Should there be a quota at all? Good question. A quota as low as 3 Canadian players wouldn't cause salary inflation issues, as the Canadian teams can fill their quota with mostly prospects (Vancouver's 3 Canadians are home grown). I don't know what exactly the deal was for the CSA to agree to Canadian teams joining the MLS, but I think the development of Canadian players is a legitimate concern for the CSA. TFC may have proven that a MLS enforced quota isn't necessary and in fact detrimental to the health of a team. Both JDG and Adrian Cann were signed when the quota was higher and in preparation for Vancouver and Montreal joining the league before the rule changes had been announced.




The difference is that TFC isn't really using them as depth players. We had 4 Canadian starters in our line up last week. Vancouver only plays one and he plays less than half the minutes. So too does Montreal.

I think Morgan could earn a starting spot on any club and Cann to some extent as well. Dunfield? Stinson? even JDG?

I would agree with you that we should be concerned about the best talent available for the domestic roster slots. Given the small talent pool here and the success of our fellow Canadian teams (relative to ours) which tend to use US players in their starting 11, I see some serious question marks as to whether we do have the best talent or simply the most convenient.

And if the best, do we have a robust scouting department that can validate that Dunfield is the best available mid-fielder in North America?
It's obvious that TFC management has applied different approaches to building a team than Vancouver and Montreal. Some of those approaches have failed miserably. Perhaps Vancouver and Montreal were able to benefit from some of the mistakes made by TFC? Is the latest approach the right one? Time will tell. I believe it to be the correct course even if the current coach is deemed unable to execute the vision properly and meet expectations while earning results along the way. I would caution, however, that it's a bit early to declare Vancouver and Montreal successes.

I think TFC presents a unique case because of the JDG and Adrian Cann contracts before the switch in approach. Can you buy out the contract of an injured player? The buck stops with MLSE for not considering buying out the contract of JDG or Cann? Purging of any restrictive contracts will be required to right this ship which is why I would advise against any rash personnel decisions or panic trades which have been a staple of the past. We have seven CBs on the roster. How many fullbacks? Ashtone Morgan hasn't been perfect, but he has earned his minutes. Adrian Cann has his deficiencies, but who do you wish to use instead right now. Dicoy Williams is injured and we used Ty Harden for most of the season so far. TFC used many midfielders in their lineup last year. Dunfield's the one who survived the process. TFC has had injuries. With a good portion of the budget being spent on Torsten Frings and JDG, what did you expect? Terry isn't the reason why TFC isn't getting results. Matt Stinson has not been relied upon heavily. As I said before how much of the budget is left for DMs after you pay Frings and JDG?

Sid
04-30-2012, 03:19 PM
i agree

ArmenJBX
04-30-2012, 03:20 PM
To whoever gave me positive reputation on that last post.

I owe you a beer.

To whoever wants to give me positive reputation on that last post...I'll owe you a beer? :)

(Can we bribe for rep, mods? :D)

Jack
04-30-2012, 03:22 PM
You can see the reps in your Settings page, Armen.

BayernTFC
04-30-2012, 03:22 PM
But when we play like a Canadian team and not an American team, it's going to show, because when USA plays Canada, how often does Canada actually win?

TFC is a Canadian team which plays in a US league. That is the reality. There are roster rules for Canadian MLS teams that differ from those for American MLS teams.

ginkster88
04-30-2012, 03:28 PM
When players like Chad Barrett, Sam Cronin and Todd Dunivant are passed on, we have a problem.
Not because they're not good enough, but because of the message it sends.

90% of these boards wanted Barrett gone. His 7 in 27 strike rate in LA isn't proving them wrong.

Cronin's departure is a black stain on Preki's reign, and has nothing to do with Americans vs. Canadians; in fact, that team had more Americans than any other nationality (8), six of whom started.

Dunivant was a player who many people regarded as nothing more than a backup. He found his game in LA, mainly because Mo/Carver were idiots. Again, nothing to do with nationality.


Scenario time. Eric Avila is cut from our team. What does he do?
He tells his best friends from UC Santa Barbara, Gabriel and Michael Farfan (A very good RB and RM, respectively) that Toronto FC is no place for an American player. He will tell them that the TFC Academy graduates get benefits they don't, can make mistakes and won't be sold. He'll tell them that Toronto FC keeps a player like de Guzman on their bench. He'll tell them that he's glad to be back in the US where American players are supported by a system that wants to develop AMERICAN players.

Let's keep speculating, shall we? He might also tell them that we'd ship our best domestic (and best player) out of town for two Americans, will spend money to feature three DPs, give playing time to deserving players and wonder exactly how his development is being supported in a country that sees most of its national team players reach that level in spite of MLS, not because of it.


We focus on Canadian players - that's good for our national team, no doubt.

But when we play like a Canadian team and not an American team, it's going to show, because when USA plays Canada, how often does Canada actually win?

We focus on Canadian players because we had to. And now that the club has invested millions of dollars in an academy that everyone thought was a great idea, they're not going to change direction because MLS said we don't need as many Canadians anymore.


Now, with the Farfan brothers turned off from Toronto FC, if Philly decides to trade them, and they end up in Toronto, do you think they are going to be receptive? As opposed to being traded to a team like Real Salt Lake, where American players such as themselves are seen for what they are and do just fine, so long as they work hard?

Again, let's speculate. While we're at it, point me in the direction of one American player who was undeservedly shown the door by this regime. I can't think of one. Labrocca netted Gordon (positive) who only managed 8 games before becoming expendable. Gordon, Peterson and Attakora (Canadian) went for Johnson. Only Gordon was re-signed, and Peterson is on the bench in KC.


The culture of our team is made to benefit Toronto players - Aron Winter said he wanted this city to grow it's own players, which is a good philosophy - FOR US in Toronto, but in reality, are we really an MLS side, or strangers in our own league?

How?


I'd say Aron Winter came here with the intention of changing the club, and in a way, he has. He also isolated our approach and made us a single entity in a league. If it works, it works, and we become heroes because we play a style that is both locally developed and effective. If it doesn't, it hurts us badly because we have not adapted to what the MLS demands of its teams.

Again, I'm going to point you to the millions of dollars invested in an academy. That is the play here... that in 10 years we won't be hoping Akron or UConn can produce a 21-year old athlete who we can select one at a time, but that we'll have 20-25 17-year old soccer players in our own backyard who are each better than their NCAA counterparts.

Yohan
04-30-2012, 03:32 PM
I'm not sure I understand what you are arguing. The quota causes the problem. It was reduced. Should there be a quota at all? Good question. A quota as low as 3 Canadian players wouldn't cause salary inflation issues, as the Canadian teams can fill their quota with mostly prospects (Vancouver's 3 Canadians are home grown). I don't know what exactly the deal was for the CSA to agree to Canadian teams joining the MLS, but I think the development of Canadian players is a legitimate concern for the CSA. TFC may have proven that a MLS enforced quota isn't necessary and in fact detrimental to the health of a team. Both JDG and Adrian Cann were signed when the quota was higher and in preparation for Vancouver and Montreal joining the league before the rule changes had been announced.


Before Caleb Clarke from their academy got signed, Vancouver was using Alain Rochat as one of their 'Canadian' spots. So Vancouver has 4 Canadians (by the rulebook) on roster right now (but calling Rochat a Canadian is... iffy)

Looks like Vancouver is also slowly adding more academy players to first team. Though remains to be seen how much play time guys like Teibert and Alderson will get

ArmenJBX
04-30-2012, 04:09 PM
Ginkster,

So long as this team has been in existence, we have run our MLS regulars out when they are not immediate impact players. We speak of them now as a collective in hindsight but in reality each player was a victim of his own individual season in Toronto. If we had taken a traditional approach and worked with what we had under Cummins, developed better ties with these US players, and grown as a Team, not just as a Canadian team, things may be different now.

As for speculation, those things are nice to appease our grieving hearts but I have trouble believing a disgruntled player just dumped on a team would speak of the positives of his former club. It's like being laid off at work and talking about how the office building had heated toilet seats and some of your coworkers were paid highly - it doesn't actually do anything for you, does it?

As for focusing on academy players because we had to? I'm sorry, I don't buy that. No one put a gun to our head and said "you MUST be a team that graduates players from the academy or else" - that's what we chose to do. We chose this path, and it's a path that does not yield immediate results. As for American players undeservedly shown the door, you tell me to name one and yet discount the three top selections - Sam Cronin was Preki's mistake but it was backed by MLSE and was a huge mistake by the Toronto FC organization. Alan Gordon was scoring, and had a month of injury against him, yet Danny Koevermans has missed more games than Gordon did and he is given literally no concern. Why is one goalscoring forward seen as "dead weight"? Alan Gordon was the first player Toronto FC could count on under Winter, and we traded him away because of the following - age, injury and speed. Well, as far as I'm concerned, our DP striker isn't much better in any of those regards. Nick LaBrocca, played as a CDM when he is a CAM, not once given a shot under Winter, even though he's doing phenomenal now in a Chivas USA roster that benefits his style of play. I'll add Wynne and Dunivant to this list of players that should not have been traded away but those were also circumstantial. They always are.

Also, you're missing my point on the academy structure. Spending millions of dollars doesn't mean we must quickly push players into the first team either. It's not one or the other. If spending that kind of money means we are being obligated to play those players who are not yet ready, then we made a mistake there too.

Strangers in our own league - we are not built like other MLS teams. We lack the US core that the other 18 MLS sides have. Nationalism has swept our roster. Even Chivas USA starts more Americans, and they are a team with origins in Mexico.

You said it best, that in 10 years we will have our own players. Not now. Thus my point - we need MLS players now and transition into academy players WHEN THEY ARE READY. Which they are not, in my opinion. Our bench is academy. Our lineup is rookies. Our starting XI aside, Toronto FC is an incomplete team.

OfficeGuy
04-30-2012, 04:57 PM
@Gardnerfanfuel - great article...it's the stuff that never gets said outside of talk in the stands...thanks for sharing!!

I still feel Aceval is underplayed in defence but while Cann the poster boy for Canadian Soccer is there watch who gets blamed and who continues to start -a 6 foot tall defender that doesn't jump on a cross is asking for trouble....hence Eckersley compensates and gets penalized with an own goal for his trouble..... Nice to see Avila stepping up tho - great hustle.

Greatest Ripoff
04-30-2012, 05:06 PM
@Gardnerfanfuel - great article...it's the stuff that never gets said outside of talk in the stands...thanks for sharing!!

I still feel Aceval is underplayed in defence but while Cann the poster boy for Canadian Soccer is there watch who gets blamed and who continues to start -a 6 foot tall defender that doesn't jump on a cross is asking for trouble....hence Eckersley compensates and gets penalized with an own goal for his trouble..... Nice to see Avila stepping up tho - great hustle.

How is Cann the poster boy for Canadian Soccer? He has 7 caps for Canada and I can't even remember the last time he played for national team.

OfficeGuy
04-30-2012, 05:21 PM
He's tall ... the typical Cdn/Provincial type defender....and gets Carlsberg man of the Match in his first game back after losing with the reserves earlier in the week.....'sup with that

Pookie
04-30-2012, 05:42 PM
We focus on Canadian players because we had to. And now that the club has invested millions of dollars in an academy that everyone thought was a great idea, they're not going to change direction because MLS said we don't need as many Canadians anymore.



This is an important clarification. Toronto actively lobbied the league to have a lower quota and within days of it being lowered they announced the investment in the academy.

We said we didn't want as many Canadians at a time when we were planning to invest in a program that would bring in more Canadians. This isn't what a strategically thinking organization would do.

Why was this done? So VAN/MTL would send us a Christmas card?

ginkster88
04-30-2012, 05:50 PM
Jimmy,

I said name one under Winter, (this regime).

Gordon managed to be healthy for 8 games. He's managed to be healthy for 4 games out of 8 so far this year.

Labrocca is leading the way in Chivas, all the way to two points from last in the West.

"If we had...grown as a team and not just a Canadian team..."

It's not hard to see the fallacy in this statement; presumably growing as a Canadian team is better than not having grown at all? It's neither here nor there, as there is as little Canadian continuity year after year as American or otherwise.

Why is Toronto FC shit?

1. Mo
2. Mo
3. Mo
4. Mo
5. The After-Mo
6. WTF

ginkster88
04-30-2012, 05:53 PM
This is an important clarification. Toronto actively lobbied the league to have a lower quota and within days of it being lowered they announced the investment in the academy.

We said we didn't want as many Canadians at a time when we were planning to invest in a program that would bring in more Canadians. This isn't what a strategically thinking organization would do.

Why was this done? So VAN/MTL would send us a Christmas card?

Flexibility in the early going. Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal each needing nine Canadians for this season would have crippled all three franchises.

TFC, Van and MTL all had to do that to remain competitive with the league and not just each other.

Why you're ignoring that is beyond me. Are there 27 MLS-level Canadians in MLS? I don't think so... and not all could be had easily.

The Academy is an investment in the future of TFC and an investment in the future balancesheet of MLSE. Don't think they didn't notice the free $5M Maurice Edu brought in.

Abou Sky
04-30-2012, 07:04 PM
^ agreed.

@sky - though the focus of this was on quota and birth certificates I'd alter your statement regarding needing more Americans slightly to say that we need the best players available for that position. If they happen to be Canadian all the better.

I would love to see us scour NA for talent but I shudder at the thought of what our scouting budget really is. For a team that spends $6M on payroll and $17M on an academy proram, we should have one of the best scouting departments in the league that can rate any player on merit. My gut tells me that we are fairly lax there and are putting a lot of hope in the Academy to be able to produce talent, immediately, in order to make up for deficiencies in being able to identify players within North America.

If the 6 players selected above our quota are not indeed the best in North America, that would suggest that the strategy above is indeed close to the truth.

We can talk about changing the chef and/or the restaurant owner but if we don't go looking for the best ingredients, the food will still be inedible.

Crap... I figured YOU would know what we spend on scouting... I would HOPE a lot, guess not.

When I say Americans it is because that way we save international slots.

All that said, IMHO Henry is an MLS starter all day long, little more work with a partner (Cann?) could make him awesome, but CB's need to work together to be good. Just like any other pairing (wingers and strikers etc)

Too much on the pitch turnover IMO.

Beach_Red
04-30-2012, 08:20 PM
^ At least this year our scout hasn't had to suit up and play a game...

BHTC Mike
04-30-2012, 09:24 PM
OMG Jimmy having a Paul on the road to Damascus moment in this thread and talking a lot of sense for once. As a long time lurker I can't believe what I'm reading.

Here's a brief synopsis of "big picture" argument over TFC since it's inception:

"Too Canadian!"
"No, not Canadian enough!"
"Too British!"
"Not South American enough!"
"Too Dutch!"
"Not Italian enough!"
"Still too Canadian!"
"No, still not Candian enough!"

Virtually none of our fan base actually want an MLS team and the disdain constantly spewn at every part of American soccer reflects that: there's another thread on this very board where people are still suggesting that they don't care about league results compared to the Voyageurs Cup and CCL! It makes copying the model of successful MLS teams a non-starter. We have to invent our own way of doing things. Maybe that'll work out great one day and we'll be ahead of the curve. Until then don't expect the Bill Archers of the world to stop laughing at us.

ArmenJBX
04-30-2012, 09:29 PM
OMG Jimmy having a Paul on the road to Damascus moment in this thread and talking a lot of sense for once. As a long time lurker I can't believe what I'm reading.

Here's a brief synopsis of "big picture" argument over TFC since it's inception:

"Too Canadian!"
"No, not Canadian enough!"
"Too British!"
"Not South American enough!"
"Too Dutch!"
"Not Italian enough!"
"Still too Canadian!"
"No, still not Candian enough!"

Virtually none of our fan base actually want an MLS team and the disdain constantly spewn at every part of American soccer reflects that: there's another thread on this very board where people are still suggesting that they don't care about league results compared to the Voyageurs Cup and CCL! It makes copying the model of successful MLS teams a non-starter. We have to invent our own way of doing things. Maybe that'll work out great one day and we'll be ahead of the curve. Until then don't expect the Bill Archers of the world to stop laughing at us.

LOL was this a compliment or an insult, I have no idea :D

I want an MLS team. I want this team to fold this year, and come back next year under an expansion draft. I want this team to go through the SuperDraft, make trades, sign one defender DP and one striker DP under the age of 30, and suck for one more year until, in their third year, they win the MLS playoffs.

Then we will go the RSL/LA route and suck for a bit, stay mid table, and become a not-shit MLS team for the rest of our existence.

Roogsy
04-30-2012, 09:32 PM
I just don't want anyone from Uzbekhibekhistanstan on this team...that's where I draw the line!

ArmenJBX
04-30-2012, 09:35 PM
The only Canadian this team should ever field is Dwayne De Rosario.

Unless one of Hutch, Jackson, Simpson, Edgar or Hoilett wanna join up, thats the only Canuck this team needs.

The rest of the Canadian brigade can play backup, of course, and if they break through into the first team, well, good on them!
However, unless we start thinking like the yanks, we won't win like the yanks.

Pookie
05-01-2012, 06:48 AM
The only Canadian this team should ever field is Dwayne De Rosario.

Unless one of Hutch, Jackson, Simpson, Edgar or Hoilett wanna join up, thats the only Canuck this team needs.

The rest of the Canadian brigade can play backup, of course, and if they break through into the first team, well, good on them!
However, unless we start thinking like the yanks, we won't win like the yanks.

The one doing the thinking is key. In exploring this, it seems pretty clear that there are inconsistencies from the top.

For example:

- lobbying for a decrease in quota while investing in a program that might give you a competitive advantage over your rivals if the quota stayed where it was

- allocating funds to the academy but presumably not into scouting

These are the kind of fundamental issues that don't make the front pages but really impact the direction and ultimately the success of an organization. How Anselmi's chair stays cool while it should be hot is beyond me.

Toronto
05-01-2012, 02:04 PM
In Vancouver and Montreal --this year's teams were assembled by coaches who knew the North American game very very well. Our team was assembled by people with no clue about the North American game. Let's bring in a Brazilian coach next time and let him sign players from South America who he thinks might be successful in North America while staying within the cap. :facepalm: YA 11 Pablo Vitti's who can't fucking play the game!

This is why we have ZERO points. It has nothing to do with Canadian players. It has everything to do with the bullshit that you can take a system from country "A" and simply run it and it will work in the MLS cause the MLS shit-- regardless of the talent assembled. Face it, Montreal and Vancouver are deeper in every position than we are. Players in those clubs are fighting for starting spots. We've become Club Med Ajax. Where Frings can fuck up a ton of times, and still be the man! cause we got NOBODY decent behind him.

Our next coach should have NORTH AMERICAN experience. Has an imported coach ever worked in the MLS?

Pookie
05-01-2012, 02:14 PM
... It has nothing to do with Canadian players... Face it, Montreal and Vancouver are deeper in every position than we are.

Aren't those 2 statements contradictory?


Players in those clubs are fighting for starting spots. We've become Club Med Ajax. Where Frings can fuck up a ton of times, and still be the man! cause we got NOBODY decent behind him.


Some might argue that the Canadians on the roster feel immune give the Academy focus and our lack of scouting. There really is no one to take their place.

Walms
05-02-2012, 09:16 AM
Great read Pookie,

I am vary proud that we boast such a Canadian packed roster, but you raise some vary interesting point and once I allowed myself to get past my Dogmatic views I have to say you had me thinking!

Cheer's

barticusz
05-02-2012, 02:31 PM
I wonder.. If all our Canadian players were let go and became free agents, how many of them would resign within the MLS right away and how many would become the next Nana Attakora's?

Dunfield - I don't see him improving any team.
De Guzman - Could potentially resign somewhere but he's not adapted well to the MLS game
Henry - Attakora v2.0
Morgan - Quick, but reckless and lacks technical ability
Stinson - 100's of players like him available
Cordon - who?

Am I missing anyone?

ginkster88
05-02-2012, 02:47 PM
I wonder.. If all our Canadian players were let go and became free agents, how many of them would resign within the MLS right away and how many would become the next Nana Attakora's?

Dunfield - I don't see him improving any team.
De Guzman - Could potentially resign somewhere but he's not adapted well to the MLS game
Henry - Attakora v2.0
Morgan - Quick, but reckless and lacks technical ability
Stinson - 100's of players like him available
Cordon - who?

Am I missing anyone?

Is the team bad, or just the Canadians?

You should probably repeat this exercise with the entire roster for an accurate picture.

barticusz
05-02-2012, 02:56 PM
Is the team bad, or just the Canadians?

You should probably repeat this exercise with the entire roster for an accurate picture.

Well personally I think the other players could cut it on other teams. Both Frings and Koevermans would likely be picked up. Avila, Silva and Plata would all find their way onto another team, as would Johnson. I'm sure someone wouldn't mind having Eckersly on their team over any of the Canadians too.

Aceval likely not, but Cann could potentially be picked up by another squad. Soolsma i'm uncertain about. I personally like him half of the time. When he runs at the defenders he can create stuff but he's not consistent.

So in reality I would say that yes, mostly the Canadians are that bad. They really don't offer much of anything to this team other than their passport.

Having said this I would love for a young Canadian kid to develop in our Academy, come up and actually make a huge difference. Something like Brett Lawrie.. I dont' care for baseball but he gives Canadians something to cheer for.

ginkster88
05-02-2012, 03:16 PM
Cann is Canadian.

And you've just looked at the starters, not the entire roster.

ryan
05-02-2012, 03:21 PM
Based on 14 matches, barely turned 19 year old Henry is already being written off by people? lol I'm amused at this.

Pookie
05-02-2012, 03:27 PM
Cann is Canadian.

And you've just looked at the starters, not the entire roster.

But isn't that part of the issue? MTL and VAN do not play their Canadians at all. Just 2 of the 7 go in and even then for half the minutes. We started 4 last game.

Their starting 11 is a mix of US and International players.

ryan
05-02-2012, 03:41 PM
A Canadian scored last game and an Englishman gave up an OG. Ban all English from TFC plz. RJ9 has a hilariously bad shots on goal % at 26.9%. Ban all Jamaicans from TFC plz.

Brb going to write a blog.

Greatest Ripoff
05-02-2012, 03:46 PM
Yeah, this crusade against Canadian players is total joke.

Greatest Ripoff
05-02-2012, 03:47 PM
And based on some of logic used in this thread, we should have more Canadians on this team as a Canadian player was named MVP last season.

Pookie
05-02-2012, 03:52 PM
I'd love to learn how questioning whether, in light of roster rules, we are using our roster effectively is a crusade against Canadian players.

Beach_Red
05-02-2012, 04:10 PM
But isn't that part of the issue? MTL and VAN do not play their Canadians at all. Just 2 of the 7 go in and even then for half the minutes. We started 4 last game.

Their starting 11 is a mix of US and International players.

Well, VAN and MTL are just trying to win some games, they're not out to change the culture... ;)

Okay, but seriously, I lived in Quebec for 30 years and the use of the word "culture" is always charged. And there would likely be very little interest one way or the other in Quebec for Canadian players - if they aren't from Quebec and don't speak french they can't help with marketing.

narduch
05-02-2012, 05:03 PM
Blaming Canadians is pretty lazy.

The fact that Vancouver and Montreal have better coaching and are better at acquiring players is a far bigger reason for their success v. Toronto's failure.

Besides, on most MLS teams, how much do they 'off cap' players even play? Aren't most of TFC's Canadians among those players?

Pookie
05-02-2012, 05:52 PM
^ nope. Ours play. Morgan and Cann could probably start anywhere. VAN and MTL's don't.

We aren't talking about using young kids as depth or "off cap" players, we are talking about using them as starters or key subs (ie. Stinson and Henry).

Players themselves are quality individuals... I wonder why some folks are so defensive about the idea of asking as to whether they are the best quality footballers available?

ag futbol
05-02-2012, 06:32 PM
Blaming Canadians is pretty lazy.

The fact that Vancouver and Montreal have better coaching and are better at acquiring players is a far bigger reason for their success v. Toronto's failure.

Besides, on most MLS teams, how much do they 'off cap' players even play? Aren't most of TFC's Canadians among those players?
It's incredibly lazy.

Different Canadians are occupying different roles within the team. As you mentioned, we're actually getting a return on off-payroll players which is admirable. So that leaves the JDG, Dunfield, Cann, etc... So SOME of the Candians on payroll are potentially not pulling their weight. Meanwhile we haven't even attempted to analyze the rest of the players on the roster, a lot of which aren't pulling their weight either.

What does it add up to? A whole lot of nothing and a cheap attempt to drive blog hits.

Commie Red
05-02-2012, 06:53 PM
I think the author has confused causation with co-relation.

I don't think we should savour the opportunity of being another development team for US players. If we are going to great rid of quotas all together fine -- but if we are going to develop youth: then let us develop our own youth.

On a related note: does anyone know the legality of MLS requiring Canadian teams to favour American players over other international players. I understand the provisions within the sports and entertainment industries to allow in foreign workers -- but MLS specifically requires Canadian teams to privilege one set of foreign workers (Americans) over others. As I recall reading last year, one reason the MLS quota system was close to being scrapped was because US teams couldn't legally favour Canadian workers over other foreign nationals (i.e. MLS couldn't implement a North American quota -- only an American one). However, Canadian teams are doing just that. In fact, the C20 exemption in the Immigration Act which (as I understand it) is what is used to allow in foreign players -- specifically states that there must exist a reciprocal arrangement in the foreign athletes home country for Canadian athletes. Where's our reciprocal arrangement?

Beach_Red
05-02-2012, 06:54 PM
It's incredibly lazy.

Different Canadians are occupying different roles within the team. As you mentioned, we're actually getting a return on off-payroll players which is admirable. So that leaves the JDG, Dunfield, Cann, etc... So SOME of the Candians on payroll are potentially not pulling their weight. Meanwhile we haven't even attempted to analyze the rest of the players on the roster, a lot of which aren't pulling their weight either.

What does it add up to? A whole lot of nothing and a cheap attempt to drive blog hits.

No, it's not so simple. It isn't really about the players who are here now - it's about the league setting domestic quotas, TFC lobbying to have hem changed and then not managing the roster very well. As long as the league has domestic quotas then where players are from will factor into analysis of the team's performance. It may or may not be a big factor, but it's one of them (and roster management has been bad - maybe we haven't had to dress a scout or, who was that amateur guy who played a game, Rick Titus? but roster management is still a problem).

iansmcl
05-02-2012, 07:15 PM
My personal issue with this thread is it has a tinfoil hat feel: the whole CMNT playing here thing, and the amount of (what sounds like?) baseless conjecture. I agree with the core premise, that we shouldn't be fielding a team of Canadians simply because they're Canadian but I don't think that's really the case. Dunfield for 65k is a decent player. He's not here to score goals or set things up, he plays DM. You also seem to forget he was acquired for next to nothing, traded to us for a player who is no longer playing on this continent; an Academy player who wasn't happy with the treatment he was getting and left. Who was Vancouver willing to trade us for the rights to Aleman? Most of the Canadians on the roster are there instead of Supplemntal draft picks, I'd say you'd rather pay a player who you've seen play more than a few games. JDG is a special case, he was coming off of a great performance in the Gold Cup just prior to signing here an MoJo and MLSE gave the fans who they wanted. Would we be better off without him (or with him at reduced pay)?

Pookie: I'm genuinely interested to know if you have any info on what TFC or any other team in MLS spends on scouting.
Also, why are you surprised when people accuse you of being on an anti-Canadian player crusade when the name of the thread is Too Many Canadians? And half of your article talks about who plays how many Canadians and who hasn't.

Armen: you form a scenario where Eric Avila hates TFC cause the Academy players get special treatment. Do they actually? Is there a source somewhere for this? (Once again, genuinely interested) but even then, that doesn't point to management playing, trading, signing for Canadians over anyone else. It points to a manager or management, that plays favourites and don't deserve to manage. The Academy products can be from anywhere, can't they? They just happen to be Canadians.

And you left Frei out of your solid player list. Obviously, he's not available for a while, but management can hardly be faulted for that.

Pookie
05-02-2012, 09:39 PM
My personal issue with this thread is it has a tinfoil hat feel: the whole CMNT playing here thing, and the amount of (what sounds like?) baseless conjecture.

I'm open to other interpretations. As I said, I have no proof that the decision to go this route in terms of roster management was done for financial reasons.

However, there was apparently a competitive issue in fielding the required number of Canadians (8) which motivated them to lobby the league.

That's real. If that didn't exist, there is no need to lobby the league.

Within a year, that competitive issue apparently disappeared as we signed (9).

Again, would love to see alternative explanations if the reason for the swift change of heart wasn't financial. Clearly, it's not related to an explosion in competitiveness because... yeah... we know how that worked out.

We have done more than any other professional club in Canada in providing opportunity and exposure for Canadian players. A goal of the CSA. In what could be unrelated news, the CSA decided that we were the most suitable venue to host the WCQs and will host them again, along with a Centennial match.

No need for tin foil hats but an alternative explanation would be nice.



Pookie: I'm genuinely interested to know if you have any info on what TFC or any other team in MLS spends on scouting.

It's a bit of a guarded secret, particularly in relation to the league but you can draw some insight by looking at the wording of the press releases.

I know that in 2011, we hired 5 scouts to mine the deep talent pools of Ottawa through London, Ontario. Those scouts were regional and were to identify players for the U13 to U15 program.

I also know that in 2011, our North American Scout was Nick Dasovic. In officially worded documents he was described as THE North American Scout. Not one of, or head of, or assistant... THE.

Any other searches for scouting and TFC... aside from old references to First Wave... come up blank.

Which seems to indicate that we had 5 guys looking for talent within the OSA that could help us in 5-10 years while we had at least one guy looking for talent in North America.

We can also compare our announced investments with our clubs. San Jose made a splash about a focus on scouting and also announced that they had joined wyscout.com, an international network/service which expands a team's ability to identify players through global video, scouting tools and other services.

Wyscout's customers include names like Arsenal, Liverpool, Juventus, FC Barcelona, Galatasaray, Glasgow Rangers and a few hundred other well known clubs.

From the MLS, the following are members of this progressive network: Chicago Fire, Chivas USA, FC Dallas, LA Galaxy, New England Revolution, New York Red Bulls, Portland Timbers, Real Salt Lake, San Jose Earthquakes and the Vancouver Whitecaps

http://wyscout.com/all-customers/

But like they tell us, not to worry. That $17M investment and one of those 5 scouts are going to find that kid playing in Guelph or Cornwall and that will be the answer.

I'm saying that with a grain of salt as I do believe the Academy is one of the few things that MLSE has done right. Sadly, it seems that player recruitment and talent identification is limited to the Academy-only.


Also, why are you surprised when people accuse you of being on an anti-Canadian player crusade when the name of the thread is Too Many Canadians? And half of your article talks about who plays how many Canadians and who hasn't.

Thread name is there for summary purposes. Calling it "TFC's Problem: Is Roster Mismanagement of the Canadian Quota in MLS, which as a result of a lack of scouting resources have resulted in a shallow talent pool relative to other clubs and has limited our ability to impact our roster as a result of trade restrictions of assets, one of the main reasons of our inability to compete since our inception?" would just be too hard to fit into the format of this forum ;)