(VC) Pregame/In game/Post Game: TFC 0 - Montreal 0

[kaos197O]

Was that our first shot?

Avila had one from 40 yards out at the beginning of the half

[Couchy81]

i will be glad when tfc terminates jdg's contract. you can't tie up money like that on a defensive midfielder. hold on winter the market is calling and freeing up that money is priceless and gonna help the club out bigtime.

Yes that contract is a big factor in all of this

[ag futbol]

WTF just happened there? Feliepe just walked past three midfielders

[iy12l]

i smell a montreal goal

[forzatoronto]

Yeah, that sequence sums up JDG...

[TFC07]

JDG is so shit!

[ag futbol]

I think we've all been conditioned to expect failure. We're 10 minutes away from a road draw in a home-away series. I can't complain about that.

[iansmcl]

Detest the all red crest.

[Eastend]

Am I the only whose heart stops during the last 5 minutes of every game?

[Toronto]

Meanwhile in Holland..


Congrats to AFC Ajax (https://www.facebook.com/afcajax)
winning their 31st Eredivisie title and special congrats toFrank de Boer (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Frank-de-Boer/107911629231810)
for his second title with the team.

[scooterTFC]

Agreed. Him and Corradi up front, Ferrari in the back. Something to be be said about Serie A experience, skill and tactical smarts. I bet it catches on, and more and more MLS teams start signing Italians. They seem to be willing to sign for reasonable money....And I bet they get younger to boot.
I suspect that the Montreal cheese mafia might be leveraging some special connections and "off the books" transfer or salary arrangements for all these seemingly affordable signings coming out of Italy. I wish we had an ownership group willing to bend the rules.

[forzatoronto]

I think we've all been conditioned to expect failure. We're 10 minutes away from a road draw in a home-away series. I can't complain about that.
The result is good, but the performance has been terrible. We're lucky Montreal have had trouble putting chances away.

[Beach_Red]

I think we've all been conditioned to expect failure. We're 10 minutes away from a road draw in a home-away series. I can't complain about that.

Agreed.

[tfcleeds]

You know those eyewash stations they had in the chem lab at school? I wish I had one of those right here for when this is all over.

[forzatoronto]

I suspect that the Montreal cheese mafia might be leveraging some special connections and "off the books" transfer or salary arrangements for all these seemingly affordable signings coming out of Italy. I wish we had an ownership group willing to bend the rules.
Ferrari was a steal, but I admit I thought Corradi was finished, he looked like a 50 year-old arthritis sufferer during his time with Udinese a couple season ago. He's still a smart player though, and looks better in the slower-paced and less physical MLS. Still, nobody would give him a DP salary.

[iy12l]

It would be funny if we scored in the last second

[gtaguy]

Yes that contract is a big factor in all of this

I dream of two good strikers in this club . that extra jdg money will come in very handy for this.

[ag futbol]

The result is good, but the performance has been terrible. We're lucky Montreal have had trouble putting chances away.
It hasn't been beautiful but in my opinion the only "beautiful" football we've played this year has been as a result of other teams choosing to toy with us.

Pack the back and defend as a team as opposed to depend on individual performances. Might be the first time Aron Winter has made a move that was tactically astute.

[Toronto]

Ferrari was a steal, but I admit I thought Corradi was finished, he looked like a 50 year-old arthritis sufferer during his time with Udinese a couple season ago. He's still a smart player though, and looks better in the slower-paced and less physical MLS. Still, nobody would give him a DP salary.

Agreed. They also have Nelson Rivas FFS! whose about to return....

And YES Eye wash stations all around..

[billyfly]

I'll take the draw.

[iy12l]

wow a 6th defender... this is getting sad

[Beach_Red]

Well, as Dobson said, "It could be the first game TFC don't lose..." Baby steps....

[iy12l]

montreal will score in the last second

[billyfly]

I can't watch.

[mclaren]

15 minutes of 11 men behind the ball. It's the new Ajax system!

This is what Total Football has been reduced to. Playing for a draw away from home against a new franchise side.

[billyfly]

Well, as Dobson said, "It could be the first game TFC don't lose..." Baby steps....

Typical Dobson. Does this every time.

[Batman]

I know a draw is ok on the road.. but holy f*ck batman..this is boring!

[ag futbol]

This ref is on crack

[Richard]

This ref is stupid.

[billyfly]

How Toronto didn't lose this...I'll never know.

[Yohan]

well, I'll take the draw. at least it's not a loss

[TFC07]

Game over! 0-0 (a good away result).

[tfcleeds]

Well, that sure wasn't pretty. Worst performance of the season, but we didn't lose. Go figure.

[Lumpy]

nice draw. ugly but nice.

[jabbronies]

Shutout!!!!

[Whoop]

Yay!

[Toronto]

Amway won't be back next year. Mark my words. This sponsorship might just sink them.

[Furtado91]

That was very boring football i have to admit. Also i dont see the attraction Winter has for always starting frick and frack. they cause our mids to have more holes than swiss cheese i swear.

[123 elite]

enough to make your eyes bleed

[ryan]

JDG is a whore. Atrocious tonight.

[Relja]

Horrible game to watch, but a draw is a draw

[forzatoronto]

Well, that sure wasn't pretty. Worst performance of the season, but we didn't lose. Go figure.
My thoughts exactly. The one positive is that at least we were able to successfully cancel out the game in the 2nd half, even if it took 6 defenders by the end. :/

[scooterTFC]

Ferrari was a steal, but I admit I thought Corradi was finished, he looked like a 50 year-old arthritis sufferer during his time with Udinese a couple season ago. He's still a smart player though, and looks better in the slower-paced and less physical MLS. Still, nobody would give him a DP salary.I hear you. They also signed Rivas. Joey Saputo has to be the only MLS owner to personally go on oversees scouting trips to Italy. Like I said whatever works... I wish our owners were dropping off brown paper bags full of cash to secure player signings.

[Beach_Red]

How Toronto didn't lose this...I'll never know.

Luckily Montreal is crap. The problem is they look like they'll get better...

[reggie]

Lol ...0 wins in 8 games

[ag futbol]

At this point, I can't argue with results .. no matter how ugly they are.

When you've lost as many in a row as we have pack the back and go for the draw. Not going to argue with it.

[Couchy81]

It hasn't been beautiful but in my opinion the only "beautiful" football we've played this year has been as a result of other teams choosing to toy with us.

Pack the back and defend as a team as opposed to depend on individual performances. Might be the first time Aron Winter has made a move that was tactically astute.

Agreed

[reggie]

dero and santos,are going to rape us saturday..

[Couchy81]

Horrible game to watch, but a draw is a draw

Preki style. Is Winter now officially working with what he's got?

[Canary10]

If someone says why don't we play exciting offensive football I'm going to slap them.

[Oldtimer]

Preki style. Is Winter now officially working with what he's got?

I think we actually just watched the first game with Mariner in charge. Will Winter now just focus on the academy or will he be back in charge next game? Interesting times.

[nickio]

Apart from a flick-on header from set piece, did we get ANY shots on goal AT ALL tonight? I can't wrap my head around just how horrible we were with the ball tonight.

I'm really not convinced that our Defense played well. I think Montreal really failed to capitalize and thanks to their lack of finish is why it was 0-0.

[Roogsy]

If that was entertaining soccer, I am a 19 year old smoking hot Victoria's Secret model.

[nickio]

I think we actually just watched the first game with Mariner in charge. Will Winter now just focus on the academy or will he be back in charge next game? Interesting times.

Not having a SINGLE chance on net bugs me just as much as stupid Defensive mistakes, which we also had tonight.

[tfcleeds]

We were just lucky Montreal didn't have any finishing tonight, otherwise this tie would be well and truly over.

[Roogsy]

We were just lucky Montreal didn't have any finishing tonight, otherwise this tie would be well and truly over.

If this is not obviously to everyone, it truly is hopeless. This expansion club with a third of the cost of ours just ran circles around us for 90 minutes.

[Benficachop20]

the only thing worth mentioning of this game is the sideline ref not knowing how to use the substitution board. That was gold jerry. Gold

[TFC Cityboy]

truly dreadful to watch and lucky to get the 0-0.

I understand fully the concept of holding what you have but many times I have seen teams who throw on random defenders get beaten as they lose their shape or don't know who to pick up.
Did we REALLY have Ecks,Emory and de guzman in m/f at the end? What the fuck was that out there?
Embarassing

[glaze]

If that was entertaining soccer, I am a 19 year old smoking hot Victoria's Secret model.

it probably was entertaining for ML$E. They may be popping the champagne down at real sports as I type this.

They're a home win away from an extra date against (vancouver i assume) in the next round, they can now use theyre CCL success as evidence the team is moving forward and we should all renew our seats without question. Though that line is a bit hypocritical as I admittedly will be renewing my seats regardless of the final record of the team this year.

If they fail to win the return leg and advance, what are the chances TFC throws SSH's nosebleed liverpool seats to make up for the missed game in our package?

[tfcleeds]

the only thing worth mentioning of this game is the sideline ref not knowing how to use the substitution board. That was gold jerry. Gold

Indeed, the most entertaining moment of the match :)

[Furtado91]

the only thing worth mentioning of this game is the sideline ref not knowing how to use the substitution board. That was gold jerry. Gold

that was the highlight of the night. I was laughing hard at that, and the refs reaction "ITS NOT WORKING ITS NOT WORKING".

[Canary10]

Some are giving Montreal too much credit. They were complete shit. Both teams were. I'd love to have the last 2 hours of my life back.

[Canary10]

that was the highlight of the night. I was laughing hard at that, and the refs reaction "ITS NOT WORKING ITS NOT WORKING".

Sadly that really was the highlight of the night.

[jloome]

It does, but the players are shite, and a new manager will lose another 7 straight.

You know, I really don't think that's the case. Some small adjustments to our shape and lineup and we're competitive. Hell, we're competitive now, we just lose all the damn time.

[Beach_Red]

You know, I really don't think that's the case. Some small adjustments to our shape and lineup and we're competitive. Hell, we're competitive now, we just lose all the damn time.

We do seem to play just a little worse than the opposition - whatever level that is. I really thought after we scored two against RSL we'd get at least a couple against Montreal.

[Abou Sky]

I saw that, Joey Saputo promised a DP from day one, Di Vaio is 35 but he'd still be a good signing, his goalscoring instinct is incredible.

But Joey Saputo LOVES soccer. MLSE... Meh. Just another enterprise.

Anyone know a billionaire from Toronto willing to part with $100m+ because they love soccer?

[iy12l]

If you see Dunfield, JDG, and Frings in the midfield... you might as well watch something else.

[jloome]

We do seem to play just a little worse than the opposition - whatever level that is. I really thought after we scored two against RSL we'd get at least a couple against Montreal.

He played for a draw. I don't know why, since ideally you want to nick an away goal. Maybe he thinks he has defensive help coming in, or maybe he just told them "turning this around starts by playing defence, so just do that tonight."

This may have been a tactical attempt at just ensuring they didn't lose another game in a row, which for psychological reasons I can understand, fucking dreadful as it was.

[Lumpy]

No win situation. If they win "they only beat an expansion team". If they lose "they lost to an expansion team". If they win Saturday "so what they have only won once in 8 games". Hopefully that was the start of a small run.

[rocker]

No win situation. If they win "they only beat an expansion team". If they lose "they lost to an expansion team". If they win Saturday "so what they have only won once in 8 games". Hopefully that was the start of a small run.

Exactly.. People were calling for the return of prekiball to get results, and they got it... Now a road tie is not enough for them either..

[narduch]

I have a feeling this will be decided by penalties next week.

[Code Red]

IMO we were very fortunate to escape this game with a draw. Montreal could have easily walked away with a win. Thanks to Reggie, a few key saves from Milos and a very close offside call, we managed to scrape out a draw.

Tactics aside, we still lack quality players. I'm not convinced that the squad we have is capable of winning games. Brutal defence, below average midfield and forwards who aren't finishing their chances. It's a recipe for futility.

[Batman]

frankly.. it's just getting hard to give a shit about this or any other MLSE team any more. What garbage we're being fed year after year.

I gave up my seats this year, and I think I might just check out from even watching altogether until there's some sign of a turn around.

Not worth the investment of time, money or emotions.

Larry Tannenbuam isn't getting another cent from me for any of his CRAPPOLA products!

Get stuffed Larry!

A mass exodus over to the Jays would send a nice message.

Go Jays Go.

[Beach_Red]

He played for a draw. I don't know why, since ideally you want to nick an away goal. Maybe he thinks he has defensive help coming in, or maybe he just told them "turning this around starts by playing defence, so just do that tonight."

This may have been a tactical attempt at just ensuring they didn't lose another game in a row, which for psychological reasons I can understand, fucking dreadful as it was.

It just seemed strange after all the claims that, "we're a better team than Montreal."

[ExiledRed]

Exactly.. People were calling for the return of prekiball to get results, and they got it... Now a road tie is not enough for them either..

No, people have been calliong for a new coach to get results.

You are like the devils advocate on crack. Can you honestly say that we deserved that point?

[Suds]

Some are giving Montreal too much credit. They were complete shit. Both teams were. I'd love to have the last 2 hours of my life back.

I agree. Montreal were not good and we were even worse. That was a horrible game all around.

[ExiledRed]

It just seemed strange after all the claims that, "we're a better team than Montreal."

Yes, were so much better we decided we'd park the bus and hold on for dear life.

[ExiledRed]

Exactly.. People were calling for the return of prekiball to get results, and they got it... Now a road tie is not enough for them either..

Also that was not Prekiball.

The object of Prekiball was to score one, THEN bunker down.

[ag futbol]

I don't know which 'team' is better, but I think it's obvious which team has a better coach.

[ExiledRed]

I don't know which 'team' is better, but I think it's obvious which team has a better coach.

Every single one of them?

[bones]

No, people have been calliong for a new coach to get results.

You are like the devils advocate on crack. Can you honestly say that we deserved that point?

Hold the fucking phone there! All year we've had WAY better games where we got SCREWED by defensive cranial farts that cost us the game when we DIDN'T deserve to lose YADDA YADDA YADDA. People can't say "it doesn't matter about how we played, we lost so we're shit and get rid if that failure coach!" every second and then not respect that we got a point on the road and a clean sheet REGARDLESS of how CRAP we just played. I'm sorry it can't go both ways.

[ExiledRed]

Hold the fucking phone there! All year we've had WAY better games where we got SCREWED by defensive cranial farts that cost us the game when we DIDN'T deserve to lose YADDA YADDA YADDA. People can't say "it doesn't matter about how we played, we lost so we're shit and get rid if that failure coach!" every second and then not respect that we got a point on the road and a clean sheet REGARDLESS of how CRAP we just played. I'm sorry it can't go both ways.

We're into theatre of the absurd now.

Throw me a bone, bones. How hard did we work for that glorious 0-0 tonight?

Lucky the coach had nothing to prove eh?

[Jeff s]

To describe Winter's formation and tactics, one must follow the very famous quote from a 4th official: "Its not working!"

[__wowza]

To describe Winter's formation and tactics, one must follow the very famous quote from a 4th official: "Its not working!"

:rofl:

[bones]

We're into theatre of the absurd now.

Throw me a bone, bones. How hard did we work for that glorious 0-0 tonight?

Lucky the coach had nothing to prove eh?

We played like total shit. I watched the first few minutes of the VanCity FC Edm game and I was saying that if we played FC Edm the way they're playing we would have got smoked.

BUT, we got a point. Let's just take it and move forward that's all. My glass is 1/10 full :)

And for the record if you're playing for a nil nil draw on the road would you not take out forwards and go with more defenders?

[ExiledRed]

We played like total shit. I watched the first few minutes of the VanCity FC Edm game and I was saying that if we played FC Edm the way they're playing we would have got smoked.

BUT, we got a point. Let's just take it and move forward that's all. My glass is 1/10 full :)

And for the record if you're playing for a nil nil draw on the road would you not take out forwards and go with more defenders?

Do away goals not count in this competition?

[bones]

Do away goals not count in this competition?

Of course and we didn't get one in the first half and with our record switching gears to put 10 behind the ball was a coaching decision to get us a guaranteed point, which it did. Is that not a positive thing?

[ExiledRed]

Of course and we didn't get one in the first half and with our record switching gears to put 10 behind the ball was a coaching decision to get us a guaranteed point, which it did. Is that not a positive thing?

So as magnificent as that 0-0 was on our record. Montreal now has the advantage, because they can score an away goal in our stadium.

You do not play 2 leg semi finals for 0-0. you go for the away goal.

[denime]

Hold the fucking phone there! All year we've had WAY better games where we got SCREWED by defensive cranial farts that cost us the game when we DIDN'T deserve to lose YADDA YADDA YADDA. People can't say "it doesn't matter about how we played, we lost so we're shit and get rid if that failure coach!" every second and then not respect that we got a point on the road and a clean sheet REGARDLESS of how CRAP we just played. I'm sorry it can't go both ways.


It can if you keep moving goal posts. ;)

[jloome]

Yeah, listening to DeGuzman describe how great it was to get a point after was a little nauseating. We were outshot 12-1 and had 33% of the ball. Just fucking dreadful.



Meanwhile, Seattle is dominating the shit out of LA, leading 2-0 and hasn't given LA a shot in 60 minutes.



League is getting better, we're stuck in crapsville.

[ExiledRed]

All impact have to do is tie us 1-1 and they fucking take it.

Have we won in 'the fortress' this season?

[ExiledRed]

There is no 'point' there are two legs, an aggregate score and away goals.

you dont get points unless its a group stage.

Has everybody forgotten how this works?

[bones]

So as magnificent as that 0-0 was on our record. Montreal now has the advantage, because they can score an away goal in our stadium.

You do not play 2 leg semi finals for 0-0. you go for the away goal.

I'll give you that it is not the best outcome 100%, FFS a 1 or 2 or 3...-nil win is better, but I'm just trying to make a point that as shit as we are, our coach tried to get the best result given the situation at a certain time, nothing more.

I know you have a hard on to get rid of Winter so there's no point in even trying to get you to accept that there was some small positive with tonight. Lets just move on, but I want you to know that there are others that don't share your opinion and if you want them to respect your thoughts on how much you hate Winter, you have to respect their thoughts that it's not all his fault either. So to them, hey WE GOT A point! Better than what I personally thought we'd get without Danny and Nick.

[ExiledRed]

I'll give you that it is not the best outcome 100%, FFS a 1 or 2 or 3...-nil win is better, but I'm just trying to make a point that as shit as we are, our coach tried to get the best result given the situation at a certain time, nothing more.

I know you have a hard on to get rid of Winter so there's no point in even trying to get you to accept that there was some small positive with tonight. Lets just move on, but I want you to know that there are others that don't share your opinion and if you want them to respect your thoughts on how much you hate Winter, you have to respect their thoughts that it's not all his fault either. So to them, hey WE GOT A point! Better than what I personally thought we'd get without Danny and Nick.

No sexual insults please.

We did not get a point. see above.

[bones]

There is no 'point' there are two legs, an aggregate score and away goals.

you dont get points unless its a group stage.

Has everybody forgotten how this works?

People know, don't get high and mighty, come on EX. We all know how this works. The point is a metaphore. If we win 1-nil WE move on.

[ExiledRed]

People know, don't get high and mighty, come on EX. We all know how this works. The point is a metaphore. If we win 1-nil WE move on.


The point is a metaphor? for what?

No it isnt. If anybody got a point it was Montreal. They have the advantage.

[Auzzy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsqJFIJ5lLs

[bones]

The point is a metaphor? for what?

No it isnt. If anybody got a point it was Montreal. They have the advantage.

I give up. Someone please hire this man as the head coach of TFC.

[ExiledRed]

I give up. Someone please hire this man as the head coach of TFC.

No, we need someone with experience and a proven track record. I dont fit the bill.

Neither does Winter I might add.

[Yohan]

No, we need someone with experience and a proven track record. I dont fit the bill.

Neither does Winter I might add.you do know that there are a chokeful of rookie managers plying their trade this season in MLS. Many of them have less experience than Winter...

[bones]

No, we need someone with experience and a proven track record. I dont fit the bill.

Neither does Winter I might add.

And players good enough at every position that listen to this vast knowledge and execute the play as coached. But that's just a minor thing.

[BHTC Mike]

Yeah, listening to DeGuzman describe how great it was to get a point after was a little nauseating. We were outshot 12-1 and had 33% of the ball. Just fucking dreadful.

Meanwhile, Seattle is dominating the shit out of LA, leading 2-0 and hasn't given LA a shot in 60 minutes.

League is getting better, we're stuck in crapsville.
You see, the problem Jeremy is that you actually watch the rest of the league. Most of our fan base hates MLS and considers it intrinsically shitty. You would think 0-0-7 in the league might change that but we are what we are.

CCL results clearly indicate that we're the greatest team north of the Rio Grande.

[Roogsy]

you do know that there are a chokeful of rookie managers plying their trade this season in MLS. Many of them have less experience than Winter...

Are any of them coaching teams that have never made the playoffs or had ownership promise fans the best front office in the league?

[tfcleeds]

Yet another match where JDG was completely anonymous. His take on the match doesn't really surprise me.

[ExiledRed]

And players good enough at every position that listen to this vast knowledge and execute the play as coached. But that's just a minor thing.

I am not seeing these guys thrown under the bus to protect the coach that hired them one more time.

I support this team, and I support 'the boys on the field'

If this coach cant communicate his vast knowledge and get HIS players to execute whatever his system is, he's not a coach.

[ExiledRed]

you do know that there are a chokeful of rookie managers plying their trade this season in MLS. Many of them have less experience than Winter...

And we shouldnt be taking that chance in season six, with no league achievement.

[Yohan]

Are any of them coaching teams that have never made the playoffs or had ownership promise fans the best front office in the league?depends on whether you ask Evil Bert this question or not ;)

[bones]

Yet another match where JDG was completely anonymous. His take on the match doesn't really surprise me.

and Frings and Johnson and .... seriously, who played decent outside of Kocic? (I chose decent because that's spectacular on this team tonight)

I'd say Aceval was decent, and Avila and maybe Dunfield (had one of his better games chasing people in the second half) that's about it.

[lerxst]

Sure wish I knew of another team to beat LA in LA. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

[Yohan]

And we shouldnt be taking that chance in season six, with no league achievement.
if you can find the 'sure thing' manager in MLS, let me know. lol

[bones]

Sure wish I knew of another team to beat LA in LA. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Although I love the positive here, RSL and NER :(

but but but US to :)

[Yohan]

Sure wish I knew of another team to beat LA in LA. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
RSL and New England both beat LA in HDC this season so far

[jloome]

You see, the problem Jeremy is that you actually watch the rest of the league. Most of our fan base hates MLS and considers it intrinsically shitty. You would think 0-0-7 in the league might change that but we are what we are.

CCL results clearly indicate that we're the greatest team north of the Rio Grande.

LOL, then they missed Fredy Montero's strike from 40 yards tonight. Poor Bill Gaudet, nailed by the top corner frozen rope.

Look, if anyone thinks tonight was acceptable, I've gone over the OPTA chalkboard already, and we should consider the following:

Dunfield tonight: 7 giveaways, 1 successful tackle, three successful passes over five yards.

DeGuzman: 6 giveaways, 4 tackles won, seven successful passes over five yards

No doubt, again, that even DeGuzman is better than Terry Dunfield.


Then again....

Torsten Frings: 13 giveaways, no successful tackles, eight successful passes over five yards.

So maybe Frings was even worse than Dunfield.


Also:
Adrian Cann -- tackled and lost possession eight times, NO SUCCESSFULTACKLES, seven headers, three clearances.


Miguel Aceval -- tackled and lost possesion seven times, three tackles won, four interceptions, one block, seven clearances, six recoveries.

Doneil Henry - tackled and lost possession 15 times, three tackles won, eight interceptions,



The only players who weren't statistically dreadful tonight were Reggie Lambe, Ryan Johnson and Milos Kocic. Everyone else was inept on a fairly massive scale. Doneil Henry's three tackles and eight interceptions almost made up for his inability to get forward, another sign he should be playing his proper positon.

I understand Cann is the aerial guy and Aceval is supposed to be the ball-on-the-ground guy, but for Cann to have no tackles and Aceval to have to make six recoveries... I dunno. Just a bad, bad team right now.

[Roogsy]

Not that we can get him but Sigi Schmidt had had great success with 3 different clubs. He's about a sure thing in this league as there is.

[Whoop]

Sure they're rookie in name... I went through this before.

Martin Rennie, yes this is his first year as a coach of MLS side but has had considerable success as a HEAD coach winning at the PDL level, USL 2, USL and NASL.

Jesse Marsch played for years in MLS and was an assistant with the US National team.

Frank Klopas is a rookie coach in MLS but he was Chicago's technical director for a number of years.

The only true rookie coach in the league is Jay Heaps in New England though he has the experience of having played in the league.


Note none of these guys came out of coaching youth teams straight to MLS.

[ExiledRed]

if you can find the 'sure thing' manager in MLS, let me know. lol

This is almost baiting, Yohan. You must know how silly you're being.

When I hire people for an important project, I review their experience and use this to judge their ability to do the job. My clients expect it.

If they screw up, I remove them from the project and look for someone else with even more experience to fix the problem. Its not easy, but its necessary, and yes firing a developer can make it hard to get others from the same network, but I can't take chances with my clients.

[Yohan]

Not that we can get him but Sigi Schmidt had had great success with 3 different clubs. He's about a sure thing in this league as there is.and Sigi was shite in Columbus for 2 yrs before winning the Cup in 08. he had 13 game winless streak at one point.

you can put Mourinho or SAF in MLS and there is no guarantee of success

[Roogsy]

and Sigi was shite in Columbus for 2 yrs before winning the Cup in 08. he had 13 game winless streak at one point.

you can put Mourinho or SAF in MLS and there is no guarantee of success


Yeah but we've been through this before. Winning something before you arrive gives you credibility and more slack. Or did he not arrive with an MLS Cup ring on his finger?

[jloome]

and Sigi was shite in Columbus for 2 yrs before winning the Cup in 08. he had 13 game winless streak at one point.

you can put Mourinho or SAF in MLS and there is no guarantee of success

Depressing as this is it's true in MLS. Arena crapped out in New York, Yallop's first four years back in San Jose were dreadful after winning their twice before and twice in Houston, Rongen won one title and made the playoffs three times but has since been fired twice, the last time after nine games.

I can't think of a single coach who hasn't struggled at some point in MLS.

[ExiledRed]

I cant believe the 'success' benchmarks being placed down here.

getting a 0-0 away result (no away goals) against a rival in a semi final is proof we are doing well?

beating LA in a single match before going 0-8-2 (W-L-D).... well who else has done that?

come ON.

[bones]

This is almost baiting, Yohan. You must know how silly you're being.

When I hire people for an important project, I review their experience and use this to judge their ability to do the job. My clients expect it.

If they screw up, I remove them from the project and look for someone else with even more experience to fix the problem. Its not easy, but its necessary, and yes firing a developer can make it hard to get others from the same network, but I can't take chances with my clients.

Dammit, you're so bloody head strong about not giving this guy his full time here and then you make such a good argument. DAmn you!

Incidently (not footie related) if anyone has been PVR'ing the Rangers vs Capitals game (Hackey game) here's a tip, stop PVR'ing and watch it, it's still on in the 3rd OT.

[ExiledRed]

and Sigi was shite in Columbus for 2 yrs before winning the Cup in 08. he had 13 game winless streak at one point.

you can put Mourinho or SAF in MLS and there is no guarantee of success

SAF would be a horrible choice based on the fact that this is most definitely not his environment, and his MO is to buy the most expensive players in the world. I mean when SAF signs a player, he's usually signing over 2-3 times our cap limit.

A proven track record in MLS, such as Steve Nicol's or a plethora of other MLS coaches, might work. We should have had this a LONG time ago.

[iy12l]

Quote from Aron after the game: "If you don't like it (our game tactics), then go to Russia!"

[bones]

Jinxed it, Hackey game is over. not sayin who though.

[ExiledRed]

Quote from Aron after the game: "If you don't like it (our game tactics), then go to Russia!"

Wow! I thought we were emulating a dutch system. Now we're Spartak. OK.

[Yohan]

Sure they're rookie in name... I went through this before.

Martin Rennie, yes this is his first year as a coach of MLS side but has had considerable success as a HEAD coach winning at the PDL level, USL 2, USL and NASL.

Jesse Marsch played for years in MLS and was an assistant with the US National team.

Frank Klopas is a rookie coach in MLS but he was Chicago's technical director for a number of years.

The only true rookie coach in the league is Jay Heaps in New England though he has the experience of having played in the league.


Note none of these guys came out of coaching youth teams straight to MLS.

You can add Ben Olsen - took over late 2010 for DC, previously assistant for 2010 before taking over as interim and full time manager of DC

Oscar Pareja - long time assistant at Dallas before being appointed Colorado manager in 2012

Robin Fraser - assistant at RSL for 4 yrs before appointed Chivas USA manager in 2011

John Spencer - assistant at Houston for 5 yrs before appointed Portland manager in 2011

My point is that a lot of MLS managers do not have a lot of experience as head coach. However, they all do have a common denominator in knowing MLS (except Rennie who has lower league NA exp).

Maybe knowing the league is what Winter lacks. but I'd argue that a lot of teams took risks appointing managers who do not have a lot of head coach experience

[jloome]

I defy anyone to look at Miguel Aceval's positioning tonight.. http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-05-02-mtl-v-tor/chalkboard .... and tell me what position he was actually playing.

Look at our on-field movement via the heat grid of each player's position, then look at the uniform discipline of Montreal's.

I realize we use a rotational "total football" system, but it's obviously WAY, WAY out of these guys' depth.

[ExiledRed]

Dammit, you're so bloody head strong about not giving this guy his full time here and then you make such a good argument. DAmn you!

Incidently (not footie related) if anyone has been PVR'ing the Rangers vs Capitals game (Hackey game) here's a tip, stop PVR'ing and watch it, it's still on in the 3rd OT.

I appreciate your post, but look this guy has had his time.

He's on borrowed time now, surely you can see this?

[Yohan]

Yeah but we've been through this before. Winning something before you arrive gives you credibility and more slack. Or did he not arrive with an MLS Cup ring on his finger?

and Schmid had a FO willing to be patient with him. Just like DC FO is with Olsen, SJ FO with Yallop.

there has to be a point where the FO decides whether the manager won't cut it, but people who says MLS has an 'instant fix' often overlook teams that choose to be patient with their managers for success.

not saying TFC should give Winter 3 years, but I think there are other facts that needs examining before deciding whether Winter should get the boot or not

[ExiledRed]

Maybe knowing the league is what Winter lacks. but I'd argue that a lot of teams took risks appointing managers who do not have a lot of head coach experience

Its a bad argument, because the time for risk taking is over. We took the same risk several times and IT HASNT WORKED.

Now is the time to make every possible effort to get the best experience possible, even if it means paying through the nose.

Watch what happens if we get dumped next week.

[bones]

I appreciate your post, but look this guy has had his time.

He's on borrowed time now, surely you can see this?

I'm close.

[jloome]

I'm close.

Again, I'll point to the post-game stat page http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-05-02-mtl-v-tor/chalkboard

Just hover your cursor over our players' positioning, then over Montreal's. Look at where the concentration of positioning is relative to where they should be. No team that is even reasonably well coached at this level has this sort of poor discipline. Combine that with being played of the ball all night and...wow. We're just really bad.

[ManUtd4ever]

Well, that was an absolutely dreadful game to watch. Based on the desperate nature of the tactics employed by Winter tonight, it is apparent that he is merely holding on to his job for dear life at this point.

[Yohan]

Its a bad argument, because the time for risk taking is over. We took the same risk several times and IT HASNT WORKED.

Now is the time to make every possible effort to get the best experience possible, even if it means paying through the nose.

Watch what happens if we get dumped next week.
again I'll repeat my argument. there is no such thing as a sure thing manager in MLS

TFC is not going to tear away Arena, Schmid or Kinnear away from their current teams, unless TFC is going to pay them something like SAF or Mourinho salary.

[jloome]

I'll also note that Montreal completed 81% of 575 (!) passes, Toronto completed 67% of 291 passes.

Given none of our players were in the right position all night, this is not surprising.

Seriously, seriously under-prepared.

[Yohan]

I'll also note that Montreal completed 81% of 575 (!) passes, Toronto completed 67% of 291 passes.

Given none of our players were in the right position all night, this is not surprising.

Seriously, seriously under-prepared.the lads played like they were still getting over the lose in RSL. travel fatigue doesn't help either

[bones]

Again, I'll point to the post-game stat page http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-05-02-mtl-v-tor/chalkboard

Just hover your cursor over our players' positioning, then over Montreal's. Look at where the concentration of positioning is relative to where they should be. No team that is even reasonably well coached at this level has this sort of poor discipline. Combine that with being played of the ball all night and...wow. We're just really bad.

I see what you're getting at here and if we played 10 behind the ball for the last few minutes then yes I'd expect to see more disciplined position, however this was clearly not the case. Winter was playing bunker down and try to steal a counter goal for the first half, then complete bunker down for the second half with people constantly rotating. Your point is still a valid one and I look forward to looking at the chalkboard after this Saturday's game, but I think it has slightly less impact (if you will) when playing a very odd style as we did tonight.

[jloome]

I see what you're getting at here and if we played 10 behind the ball for the last few minutes then yes I'd expect to see more disciplined position, however this was clearly not the case. Winter was playing bunker down and try to steal a counter goal for the first half, then complete bunker down for the second half with people constantly rotating. Your point is still a valid one and I look forward to looking at the chalkboard after this Saturday's game, but I think it has slightly less impact (if you will) when playing a very odd style as we did tonight.

Bones, it's the opposite. when you play bunker ball, your movement is LESS flexible, not more. So we should have had very static positions, much like Montreal's.

[Whoop]

You can add Ben Olsen - took over late 2010 for DC, previously assistant for 2010 before taking over as interim and full time manager of DC

Oscar Pareja - long time assistant at Dallas before being appointed Colorado manager in 2012

Robin Fraser - assistant at RSL for 4 yrs before appointed Chivas USA manager in 2011

John Spencer - assistant at Houston for 5 yrs before appointed Portland manager in 2011

My point is that a lot of MLS managers do not have a lot of experience as head coach. However, they all do have a common denominator in knowing MLS (except Rennie who has lower league NA exp).

Maybe knowing the league is what Winter lacks. but I'd argue that a lot of teams took risks appointing managers who do not have a lot of head coach experience

And they were all coaching men, not youths... even as assistants.

I compare Winter' track record with Frank de Boer. Same system, same team, very similar careers, same start to their managerial career yet one managed to lead his team to 2 straight league titles in the face of a lot of adversity and the other one is hanging on by the skin of his teeth.

[BHTC Mike]

Maybe knowing the league is what Winter lacks.
Maybe?

[Whoop]

and Schmid had a FO willing to be patient with him. Just like DC FO is with Olsen, SJ FO with Yallop.

there has to be a point where the FO decides whether the manager won't cut it, but people who says MLS has an 'instant fix' often overlook teams that choose to be patient with their managers for success.

not saying TFC should give Winter 3 years, but I think there are other facts that needs examining before deciding whether Winter should get the boot or not

Yallop won 2 MLS Cups in his first go around with San Jose.

Ben Olsen played over 10 seasons with DC United, the club he's coaching.

They've earned the right to get "more time".

[bones]

Bones, it's the opposite. when you play bunker ball, your movement is LESS flexible, not more. So we should have had very static positions, much like Montreal's.

Dutch style bunkering is not so though. They do rotate, they use more position based to stay behind the ball but rotate with player movement. It's like a bastardized man to man zone...I know I know they're opposites, I just don't know how else to describe it.

In either case, Winter played for the nil nil draw and he got it. Glass 1/10th full ?

[ExiledRed]

again I'll repeat my argument. there is no such thing as a sure thing manager in MLS

But its becoming quite apparent that there is such thing as a 'sure loss manager' - and you cant argue keeping him on this silly premise.

[Yohan]

Yallop won 2 MLS Cups in his first go around with San Jose.

Ben Olsen played over 10 seasons with DC United, the club he's coaching.

They've earned the right to get "more time".Yallop coached the now Houston Dynamo who used to be San Jose. a bit different.

So if Dichio became TFC manager and he shit the bed, he should get more time than Winter just because he's a bit of cult hero here?

[ExiledRed]

Dutch style bunkering is not so though. They do rotate, they use more position based to stay behind the ball but rotate with player movement. It's like a bastardized man to man zone...I know I know they're opposites, I just don't know how else to describe it.

In either case, Winter played for the nil nil draw and he got it. Glass 1/10th full ?

Again, not going for the away goal is inexcusable.

[ExiledRed]

Yallop coached the now Houston Dynamo who used to be San Jose. a bit different.

So if Dichio became TFC manager and he shit the bed, he should get more time than Winter just because he's a bit of cult hero here?

Who said this?

edit - i see how your point somewhat relates to the previous post.

If this was Dichios second season as coach, he would have resigned by now, because he is not spineless and he cares about the fans.

[jloome]

Dutch style bunkering is not so though. They do rotate, they use more position based to stay behind the ball but rotate with player movement. It's like a bastardized man to man zone...I know I know they're opposites, I just don't know how else to describe it.

In either case, Winter played for the nil nil draw and he got it. Glass 1/10th full ?

I get that, I'm just sayign their hot spots arenj't even near their actual positions. And their 67% pass completion on just 291 passes suggests that if they were rotating, they weren't doing it fast enough.

[Whoop]

the lads played like they were still getting over the lose in RSL. travel fatigue doesn't help either

That's a poor excuse.

I'd rather hear someone tell me they were shit than use excuses.

[BHTC Mike]

Depressing as this is it's true in MLS. Arena crapped out in New York, Yallop's first four years back in San Jose were dreadful after winning their twice before and twice in Houston, Rongen won one title and made the playoffs three times but has since been fired twice, the last time after nine games.
I don't disagree with your general premise but Yallop made the playoffs (with a week to spare) and eventually the Eastern Conference Final in '09 and Arena was 6th overall at NY in '07. We'd kill for those results right now. Only Rongen truely has the record from a different era of MLS.

[bones]

I get that, I'm just sayign their hot spots arenj't even near their actual positions. And their 67% pass completion on just 291 passes suggests that if they were rotating, they weren't doing it fast enough.


not fast enough.... ON THE NOSE THERE! Yeah, only 291 passes is due to the fact that we didn't have the ball long enough to even try more and we didn't put pressure on the ball to get it back because our guys were gassed after RSL game still.

Stats tell the story but always need interpretation.


*** before someone flips at me, I'm not saying we were better than our stats!

[ExiledRed]

I get that, I'm just sayign their hot spots arenj't even near their actual positions. And their 67% pass completion on just 291 passes suggests that if they were rotating, they weren't doing it fast enough.

You've made a really good assessment.

You can see he's lost the plot, and the players never knew what the plot was.

I will point out that the stats and diagrams dont show how heartless the display was. nor how fed up the players looked.

[Whoop]

Yallop coached the now Houston Dynamo who used to be San Jose. a bit different.

So if Dichio became TFC manager and he shit the bed, he should get more time than Winter just because he's a bit of cult hero here?

Yeah but Yallop has had success in the league in the past.

It doesn't have to be success in MLS, it can be any league.

Previous success gives you more rope, more cache.

And as for the Dichio example, I wouldn't hire him as a coach for a first team. MAYBE if he had been immersed in the league for 10-15 years then maybe. Would also depend on the support staff that he had.

[ExiledRed]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QR1zzcc1t6M/T0vjSCO0iAI/AAAAAAAAADM/p3eIYYgk6AA/s1600/excuses.jpg

[jloome]

You've made a really good assessment.

You can see he's lost the plot, and the players never knew what the plot was.

I will point out that the stats and diagrams dont show how heartless the display was. nor how fed up the players looked.

I think if I go back and check past league games, we'll find their movement and pass completion have both become more erratic the more games they play. The system may require too much movement for guys traveling as far as teams do in MLS, with many fewer days of game prep between; it also explains why they give up so many late goals -- our players are covering twice as much real estate with half as much ball.

Eek.

[ManUtd4ever]

I can appreciate the need for a defensive minded approach on the road, but TFC couldn't even generate a single legitimate scoring opportunity.

If the current circumstances surrounding the club were different, I suppose we all could be somewhat content with a draw in the opening away leg of the CC, but frankly, it's embarassing to watch your hometown club play scared to lose against an opponent that Winter boldly declared to be inferior.

[bones]

I think if I go back and check past league games, we'll find their movement and pass completion have both become more erratic the more games they play. The system may require too much movement for guys traveling as far as teams do in MLS, with many fewer days of game prep between; it also explains why they give up so many late goals -- our players are covering twice as much real estate with half as much ball.

Eek.

Now that is interesting! Perhaps this is a "can't be done in MLS" thing. No one else is trying this style in MLS are they?

As for the "wouldn't hire Dichio" comment from Whoop, how about Interim with a 4-4-2 since we have very good players?

[ExiledRed]

Now that is interesting! Perhaps this is a "can't be done in MLS" thing. No one else is trying this style in MLS are they?

Yes, but they are doing it properly.

The headless chicken 4-3-3 doesnt cut it in North America.

[Roogsy]

again I'll repeat my argument. there is no such thing as a sure thing manager in MLS

TFC is not going to tear away Arena, Schmid or Kinnear away from their current teams, unless TFC is going to pay them something like SAF or Mourinho salary.

There are few sure things in life in general bro (except Janine Palumbo...she was like the neighborhood bicycle).

It doesn't make for a good argument just because there aren't sure things. It doesn't mean you go to the other extreme and take a flyer on an unproven sheister selling you a bill of goods.

[jloome]

Yes, but they are doing it properly.

The headless chicken 4-3-3 doesnt cut it in North America.

I wouldn't say there are any other teams playing a strict Dutch 4-3-3. There are a few playing 4-3-3, but it's mostly modified, like Kansas city playing a direct style but with a different positional balance of responsiblities. I know Klinsmann has tried to put it in with the U.S Men's team with limited success, and Porter failed with it at the U23 level with the U.S. men's team as well.

So... maybe it's just not a system that fits players from here that well.

[jloome]

It doesn't mean you go to the other extreme and take a flyer on an unproven sheister selling you a bill of goods.

Sheister implies deliberate deception or fraud, which isn't fair. He hasn't done anything but do a bad job. Ineptitude is still better than dishonesty. With Mo we had both, although neither helps us win.

[ExiledRed]

I wouldn't say there are any other teams playing a strict Dutch 4-3-3. There are a few playing 4-3-3, but it's mostly modified, like Kansas city playing a direct style but with a different positional balance of responsiblities. I know Klinsmann has tried to put it in with the U.S Men's team with limited success, and Porter failed with it at the U23 level with the U.S. men's team as well.

So... maybe it's just not a system that fits players from here that well.

My apologies, I dont watch the other MLS teams too often. I was told by numerous people on the board that those teams were following the same 'system' and therefore the system cant be the problem.

Looks like thats not the case then.

[Roogsy]

Sheister implies deliberate deception or fraud, which isn't fair. He hasn't done anything but do a bad job. Ineptitude is still better than dishonesty. With Mo we had both, although neither helps us win.

It was an unfair swipe. I don't believe Winter is dishonest. Just inept.

[jloome]

My apologies, I dont watch the other MLS teams too often. I was told by numerous people on the board that those teams were following the same 'system' and therefore the system cant be the problem.

Looks like thats not the case then.

Doesn't change his need to adapt tactically. This is a league where teams tend to change up their look every week in terms of roles and responsibilities while keeping the same general shape. Coaches here, to me, favor matchup-based tactics where they start with the breakdown of strengths and weaknesses and build from there.

Conversely, total football is supposed to be a catch-all system where the shape changes dramatically based on having guys naturally cheat more to the offense or defense and rotate to cover when someone moves into space. This throws guys all over the place which, if the guys are great readers of the game, can be very confusing to the other team and open up all kinds of space.

But it takes a read of the field and short technical game -- with lots of short sprinting and guys who have a well-rounded package of offensive and defensive skills -- that the more I look at the numbers really doesn't suit this league. Not yet.

[ExiledRed]

It was an unfair swipe. I don't believe Winter is dishonest. Just inept.

He's a fraud. He's swindling us out of our season and laughing all the way to the bank.

He knows he's not capable of achieving what is required of him and REFUSES to resign.

fuck him.

[narduch]

Winter needs to be fired so that the next management team can start getting to work on fixing this team. Lets not wait until January again.

Winter is on borrowed time, despite whatever the last few defenders are saying. After every result there are fewer and fewer willing to go to bat for him.

Its not working, giving Winter more time won't change that.

TFC is worse than an expansion team.

By the way, anyone else feel that Frings looked old and tired last night? I wonder if he's tired of this shit and if he'll just retire.

[ryan]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/sites/league/files/imagecache/620x350/image_nodes/2012/05/kocic.jpg


lol dunfield

[Chevy]

^ LOL. At least he's f**king marking someone!

[mastermixer]

Just watching Newcastle beat Chelsea yesterday, and how happy Carver looked on the sidelines made me think what if...

[TFCmatty]

Is Koev injured? Wondering why he hasn't featured in a few games......at least off the bench....

[Canary10]

Jloome: thanks for the great posts. Some good analysis there. The heat maps are ridiculous.

[Canary10]

Just watching Newcastle beat Chelsea yesterday, and how happy Carver looked on the sidelines made me think what if...

Think he'd be able to teach someone to shoot like Cisse? Holy shit.

[trane]

I think if I go back and check past league games, we'll find their movement and pass completion have both become more erratic the more games they play. The system may require too much movement for guys traveling as far as teams do in MLS, with many fewer days of game prep between; it also explains why they give up so many late goals -- our players are covering twice as much real estate with half as much ball.

Eek.

THIS is key. In earlier years, I had said that being a good defensive team is a matter of hard work, good organization, discipline BUT ALSO FITNESS, because it is hard work as you get tiered you become more mistake prone. This is why we learned to be economical with our movement, to be smart positional, and keep moving at a steady pace, and not high energy all the time, so that at the end of the game we would have the necessary strength and breath to defend well.

You can play a system with lots of movement, but you need to keep the speed of it low, even when you see barca play they do it at a low pace, until they see the opportunity develop and then they spring quickly. This is also very much the way we were taught to play in the era of catenaccio.

Even when we play pick up here, the other players are telling me to push up and quickly, but I have been taught ( and now it is instinct) to stay back in a good position ( between the player and the goal, in the passing lane , in line with the other defenders ect.) and keep on falling back UNTIL I got that angle to close down effectively to get the ball and/or to block him physically/take away his space. This generally happens just at the edges of the box, were if he has the space he would have a good shot at goal. Running up to him 30 yard from goal tiers me and leaves me in a poor position if I do not take the ball away.

ANYWAY THE POINT WAS conserving energy ussing it wisely is one of the keys to good defending.

[deltox]

Asked if Toronto FC are the better team heading into the ACC matchup, Winter said candidly: “For sure, 100 percent.”

Eric Avila - "...Yeah, we do have a great team and we do have a better team than Montreal.”

well, i didnt see it. we were not the better team. no one can say that TFC were better last night.

that was boring bullshit football.

[Roogsy]

Winter dislike aside, from a purely mathematical point of view a 0-0 draw is not as good as some of you are making it out to be.

The only possible result that would have been worse would be an actual loss.

The next worst result is a scoreless draw. As we all know, away goals matter. We have none.

The only way for TFC to go through now is an outright win. Nothing else will help them through.

When you cut down your options like that, you reduce your chances for success. An away draw with at least a single away goal would have been substantially better. As it is, right now all Montreal has to do is draw the game with no score and they keep their hopes alive. Draw the game with actual goals and TFC is done.

And this is a good thing?

Guys...when the most positive thing that happens to you is that your team gets a scoreless draw, something has gone wrong somewhere. Especially a team that was built with the stated goals and style you guys have repeated over and over again.


Asked if Toronto FC are the better team heading into the ACC matchup, Winter said candidly: “For sure, 100 percent.”

Eric Avila - "...Yeah, we do have a great team and we do have a better team than Montreal.”

well, i didnt see it. we were not the better team. no one can say that TFC were better last night.

that was boring bullshit football.

They ran circles around us and had multiple chances on net. The only reason we are going back to BMO Field with a draw and not a loss is a lack of finishing touch by Montreal and a couple of blinding saves by Kocic.

Their keeper could have knitted a sweater on his end he was so bored.

Better team? More like butter team.

[trane]

Doesn't change his need to adapt tactically. This is a league where teams tend to change up their look every week in terms of roles and responsibilities while keeping the same general shape. Coaches here, to me, favor matchup-based tactics where they start with the breakdown of strengths and weaknesses and build from there.

Conversely, total football is supposed to be a catch-all system where the shape changes dramatically based on having guys naturally cheat more to the offense or defense and rotate to cover when someone moves into space. This throws guys all over the place which, if the guys are great readers of the game, can be very confusing to the other team and open up all kinds of space.

But it takes a read of the field and short technical game -- with lots of short sprinting and guys who have a well-rounded package of offensive and defensive skills -- that the more I look at the numbers really doesn't suit this league. Not yet.

Nobody, acctually does this anymore, every European team that I know, has a basic system, but they adapt it to need. Even Barca which is the most total football like club does that. In fact I would say that Milan is a team then tends to keep its basic system more often then other clubs. But its basic system is inherently flexible, in that the mids are flexible, one of them can play a CDM role or all three of them can, and even our treguartista ( for example Boateng) can play very defensively is it is called .

(maybe ajax does it- I do not seem then enough)

[trane]

Winter dislike aside, from a purely mathematical point of view a 0-0 draw is not as good as some of you are making it out to be.

The only possible result that would have been worse would be an actual loss.

The next worst result is a scoreless draw. As we all know, away goals matter. We have none.

The only way for TFC to go through now is an outright win. Nothing else will help them through.

When you cut down your options like that, you reduce your chances for success. An away draw with at least a single away goal would have been substantially better. As it is, right now all Montreal has to do is draw the game with no score and they keep their hopes alive. Draw the game with actual goals and TFC is done.

And this is a good thing?

Guys...when the most positive thing that happens to you is that your team gets a scoreless draw, something has gone wrong somewhere. Especially a team that was built with the stated goals and style you guys have repeated over and over again.



They ran circles around us and had multiple chances on net. The only reason we are going back to BMO Field with a draw and not a loss is a lack of finishing touch by Montreal and a couple of blinding saves by Kocic.

Their keeper could have knitted a sweater on his end he was so bored.

Better team? More like butter team.

Well historically I would say that our defenses are like pylons made of butter.

[Phil]

Winter dislike aside, from a purely mathematical point of view a 0-0 draw is not as good as some of you are making it out to be.

The only possible result that would have been worse would be an actual loss.

The next worst result is a scoreless draw. As we all know, away goals matter. We have none.

The only way for TFC to go through now is an outright win. Nothing else will help them through.

When you cut down your options like that, you reduce your chances for success. An away draw with at least a single away goal would have been substantially better. As it is, right now all Montreal has to do is draw the game with no score and they keep their hopes alive. Draw the game with actual goals and TFC is done.

And this is a good thing?

Guys...when the most positive thing that happens to you is that your team gets a scoreless draw, something has gone wrong somewhere. Especially a team that was built with the stated goals and style you guys have repeated over and over again.



They ran circles around us and had multiple chances on net. The only reason we are going back to BMO Field with a draw and not a loss is a lack of finishing touch by Montreal and a couple of blinding saves by Kocic.

Their keeper could have knitted a sweater on his end he was so bored.

Better team? More like butter team.

If you refer to the closed thread there is a train derailment and lecture on most outcomes that would indeed be better than a 0-0. Away goals in a loss could be better for us given a draw at home.

Wouldn't that be a media mind screw if it happened?

[trane]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/sites/league/files/imagecache/620x350/image_nodes/2012/05/kocic.jpg


lol dunfield

Wow, well there is a missed call.

If you are going to pull the man's shirt, do it from behind, were it is not in such plain view. ( This is from the class I took in 1978-Italian school of defending 101)

[Bars92]

I didn't see the match, sounded sluggish. But I can't blame the boys for not showing up for this one, given the state of the team in MLS. Its the start of another road to the CONCACAF, which is exactly what f---ed us up at the beginning of the season, will probably cost us the season and cost Winter his job. Better to concentrate on the league, who gives a rats arse about this tournament?

[Roogsy]

Question:

When did it change from Nutrilite to Amway Canadian Championship?

And why? Aren't they the same company?

[Canary10]

^ So true. It's so annoying.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Amway owns Nutralite. They want more exposure for the parent co.

[Canary10]

Why don't we rename it Pyramid Scheme Cult Salespeople Canadian Championship?

[trane]

I didn't see the match, sounded sluggish. But I can't blame the boys for not showing up for this one, given the state of the team in MLS. Its the start of another road to the CONCACAF, which is exactly what f---ed us up at the beginning of the season, will probably cost us the season and cost Winter his job. Better to concentrate on the league, who gives a rats arse about this tournament?

This is one poor excuse. CONCACAF has nothing to do with our poor form, if anything the extra games could have assure that we hit the season in full stride. Are you saying that the poor guys were tiered after four games at the start of the season? If that is so perhaps they should consider another profession.

[ginkster88]

A 2-1 or 3-2 loss (or any iteration of a one goal loss) would have been better than a 0-0 draw.

The only score worse than what we did would have been a 1-0 or greater loss.

All Montreal need to do now is draw 1-1 or better to advance.

[TFC USA]

Clean sheet.

Improvement! We will make the playoffs now that we're encouraged by a bullshit draw!

[Suds]

Question:

When did it change from Nutrilite to Amway Canadian Championship?

And why? Aren't they the same company?

I'd explain it here but I'd rather you come out to one of our events where everything will be explained and we will teach you how to make a second income. g:D

*No, I'm not an Amway agent.

[Couchy81]

Edit: In fact, a 2-1, 3-2 etc. loss for Montreal will force extra time and penalties.

I thought aggregate score is the winner, and away goals are simply a tie-breaker?

[Canary10]

I'd explain it here but I'd rather you come out to one of our events where everything will be explained and we will teach you how to make a second income. g:D

*No, I'm not an Amway agent.

That was awesome. Take a bow!

[KRO]

A 2-1 or 3-2 loss (or any iteration of a one goal loss) would have been better than a 0-0 draw.

The only score worse than what we did would have been a 1-0 or greater loss.

All Montreal need to do now is draw 1-1 or better to advance.

Edit: In fact, a 2-1, 3-2 etc. loss for Montreal will force extra time and penalties.

This is not correct. Away goals only count double in the event of tie.

[ag futbol]

I just have to say, in light of how we were playing previously, I don't have a problem with the result last night. Not that it absolves us from a terrible run in form but it actually put something out there that wasn't a loss.

Yeah I want beautiful football too, but at this point: just show me some form of results. Game comes back to BMO field and the team still has everything to play for. Beat an expansion team at home and we're trough ... good enough

[ryan]

Was there ever a time/league/format where away goals literally counted as two?

[tfcleeds]

I just have to say, in light of how we were playing previously, I don't have a problem with the result last night. Not that it absolves us from a terrible run in form but it actually put something out there that wasn't a loss. Yeah I want beautiful football too, but at this point: just show me some form of results. Game comes back to BMO field and the team still has everything to play for. Beat an expansion team at home and we're trough ... good enoughAll depends how you look at it, I guess. Glass-half-full says all we need is a 1-0 win at home, and we're through. Glass-half-empty says all Montreal needs is a 1-1 tie or a win, and they're through. Really, we needed to push for a goal last night - the fact that we didn't have one good opportunity on goal is a cause for concern. To advance will mean to do something we haven't done yet, and that is win at home. And for all the talk about Montreal being an expansion team, the fact is they have some very good players and are well-coached.

[KRO]

Was there ever a time/league/format where away goals literally counted as two?

Here is an excerpt from the Wiki entry regarding the away goals rule.

"The away goals rule is a method of breaking ties in association football and other sports when teams play each other twice, once at each team's home ground. By the away goals rule, the team that has scored more goals "away from home" will win if scores are otherwise equal. This is sometimes mistakenly expressed by saying that away goals (or at least one of them) "count double" in the event of equal scores".

I can find no examples of away goals actually counting double whatever the aggregate score.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Away_goals_rule

[Roogsy]

I'd explain it here but I'd rather you come out to one of our events where everything will be explained and we will teach you how to make a second income. g:D

*No, I'm not an Amway agent.

:lol:

Can I fit that in between my ACN and Herbalife meetings?

[ExiledRed]

Was there ever a time/league/format where away goals literally counted as two?

Its not a literal expression, the score is the score, the away goals dont ACTUALLY count for two. But when tiebreaks occur you can work out who won by doubling away goals.

saying 'away goals count for two in a tie' is a quick summarisation of 'whoever scores the most away goals wins in a tie'

[ManUtd4ever]

In my estimation, the most alarming aspect of last night's performance was the body language of the players. Even Frings seemed lethargic, and his level of play has been on the decline since his return from injury.

We have all witnessed our current roster players perform at a much higher level in the past. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that they may have given up on Winter at this point. Either that, or the losing streak has simply sucked the life out of the team. In either case, this team needs a shot of adrenalin in some form or another.

[ExiledRed]

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/halfempty.jpg

[Roogsy]

BHTC Mike made a good post over at Usector which I hope is ok that I post here.


1 shot on goal was Avila's I think? It was from 35 yards and bounced before it got to Ricketts. Not exactly Freddy Montero stuff. Aceval had a header from outside the box that could have been classified as a shot on target too IIRC. From what I recall and what I can find in the stats they won 8 corners and we won 0.

The really damning stuff though:

Montreal: 575 total passes with 81% accuracy and 66% possession.

Toronto: 291 total passes with 67% accuracy and 32% possession.

They looked like a better, more organized, more composed, and more veteran team. And that's with a bunch of untalented pluggers like Warner, Wahl, Thomas, and Brovsky out there. They were clearly more confident.

More and more the CCL results are retrospectively looking like a team playing above itself and putting everything they've got into games against unmotivated and disorganized opponents. That's something our team should be justifiably proud of and Winter can take credit for. In some sense it makes the run to the semis even more of an accomplishment. But like I said in my match preview for the Columbus game you can't play above yourself game in, game out; over a league season you'll get found out.

Consider this: I acknowledged in the Winter thread that 0-0-7 is almost certainly unrealistically harsh on our team. However, even considering our "good" performances as unlucky, thanks to "bad luck" or random individual mistakes, not to get a few results we'd still probably only have 5 or 6 points. That'd still put us in last place in the entire league after playing 4 home games out of 7 to start the year. It'd be better but it still wouldn't be good.

As someone who's argued for pragmatism I can't complain about the style of play last night. On the other hand, Winter loyalists - and I don't mean that pejoratively - should accept the only game we've gotten a result in in a month required abandoning our style of play. This isn't a game that can be pointed to as part of an "improvement" narrative.

That's all that needs to be said I think.

I think TFC has a good shot at winning next week and progressing, but within this context, it's tough to believe in this team.

[Canary10]

BHTC Mike made a good post over at Usector which I hope is ok that I post here.



That's all that needs to be said I think.

I think TFC has a good shot at winning next week and progressing, but within this context, it's tough to believe in this team.

That's a good balanced post.

[Bars92]

This is one poor excuse. CONCACAF has nothing to do with our poor form, if anything the extra games could have assure that we hit the season in full stride. Are you saying that the poor guys were tiered after four games at the start of the season? If that is so perhaps they should consider another profession.

I think given the clubs history, it was important to get off to a half decent start in the league. Now its a case of here we go again. Its inexplicable that they were able to get results against LA and Santos, yet haven't gotten one yet in the league. They should have gotten something from the league game in Montreal, but flew in from a game in Mexico just before. I dunno, just a theory.

[FreekAce]

And they were all coaching men, not youths... even as assistants.

I compare Winter' track record with Frank de Boer. Same system, same team, very similar careers, same start to their managerial career yet one managed to lead his team to 2 straight league titles in the face of a lot of adversity and the other one is hanging on by the skin of his teeth.

Ha! yeah one of them also has a 51 million euro budget to work with. the clusterfuck that is ajax management sure beats our clusterfuck of management. hard to believe at times.

[trane]

^Yes, and one of them manages in the Eredivisie and UEFA CL and one of them in the MLS and CONCACAF.

[Whoop]

Ha! yeah one of them also has a 51 million euro budget to work with. the clusterfuck that is ajax management sure beats our clusterfuck of management. hard to believe at times.

LOL

I hear what you're saying but one got booted up while the other got booted out.

Looks like you guys might get a CL spot next season.

[narduch]

A 2-1 or 3-2 loss (or any iteration of a one goal loss) would have been better than a 0-0 draw.

The only score worse than what we did would have been a 1-0 or greater loss.

All Montreal need to do now is draw 1-1 or better to advance.

This is actually not true though.

The 0-0 tie is still better than a loss with a goal.

If TFC had lost, Montreal will still advance with any tie in the 2nd leg. Whereas with the 0-0 tie, any TFC win in the 2nd leg means they will advance. TFC has more ways to advance with the 0-0 tie than going in with a loss (even with away goals).

[Abou Sky]

frankly.. it's just getting hard to give a shit about this or any other MLSE team any more. What garbage we're being fed year after year.

I gave up my seats this year, and I think I might just check out from even watching altogether until there's some sign of a turn around.

Not worth the investment of time, money or emotions.

Larry Tannenbuam isn't getting another cent from me for any of his CRAPPOLA products!

Get stuffed Larry!

A mass exodus over to the Jays would send a nice message.

Go Jays Go.

Enjoy, I will join you for postseason, I can't follow a sport with that many games and that takes that long to play.

[Batman]

Enjoy, I will join you for postseason, I can't follow a sport with that many games and that takes that long to play.

postseason? who around here knows what that word means?

fair enough.. 162 is a lot of games..