Post game thread - tfc 2 @ rsl 3

[__wowza]

Ouch! RT @AllonthePitch (http://twitter.com/@AllonthePitch): This week in #TFC (http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23TFC) optimism: This is probably the best 0-7 team the #MLS (http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23MLS) has ever seen. #TFCLive (http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23TFCLive)
to our credit, we played pretty well against a team that i thought were going to destroy us. cann/aceval, what can you say? if you watched the streams in the game thread all you heard about was how ecks got subbed out and they didnt understand why, someone wanna tell them we got a game in montreal this week?

EDIT: everyone collapsing on the pitch after the the goal said it all, they're as tired and heartbroken as we are. we should've had the tie.

[ExiledRed]

TFC has always been lousy and their lousiness may have caused bitterness to surface in a few fans. New fans will take their place. TFC soccer is so much more enjoyable to watch now despite the losses.

You have got to be kidding, it is NOT more enjoyable to watch. It is no longer possible to pretend that you are a more sophisticated soccer expert and can explain away every loss as an incremental improvement. It is obvious that the team is disjointed, unhappy and performing like a team that is about to go 0-8 and there are no technical skills on display that are strong enough to prevent this repeated humiliation of our badge.

[TFC USA]

Yeah I much prefer losing in stoppage time than losing 6-2. Oh fuck we've done both. And neither one of them earns you a point!

[TFC1154ever]

I think we all can agree that we need 2 STARTING CBS. Henry is good from off the bench. I would actually would like to see more of Emory but, Cann,harden,aceval....sorry just not good enough. This team can score, and i would actually would like to see this team with 2 capable CBS.

[__wowza]

You have got to be kidding, it is NOT more enjoyable to watch. It is no longer possible to pretend that you are a more sophisticated soccer expert and can explain away every loss as an incremental improvement. It is obvious that the team is disjointed, unhappy and performing like a team that is about to go 0-8 and there are no technical skills on display that are strong enough to prevent this repeated humiliation of our badge.

4-4-2 hoofball like the rest of the league it is then!!
losing isnt enjoyable for anyone to watch, but surely you can attest that even losing games can show improvement that's not reflective in points. the only thing that looked disjointed to me was our defense, but then again, it always is. i don't see how that reflects a complete lack of technical skills elsewhere on the pitch. its a pretty rash generalization. it's almost akin to saying that nothing else went right. there's a difference between 3-2 and 3-0.

[DOMIN8R]

A few thoughts....


I liked the fan designed TFC kits. So shoot me.
RSL fans have come a long way. I have new found respect for Salt Lake. R E S P E C T
More than any previous year – I’m impressed with the quality of MLS (this year). I find almost every MLS game very enjoyable to watch in 2012 – largely because of the improved quality and athleticism in the league.
Our defense still needs tweaking.
Altitude, away, it is RSL(!) at home - I think that we still showed character. It’s not enough. But I’m still impressed.
I am pleased that we have talent across the whole line. Not just a few starters. Today Henry, Morgan, et all, - looked like they were professional football players. I’m so happy that we don’t rely on 3-4 players to be a competitive side. The talent spread gives me hope.
We have often play better than the score line. Today may be a good example of that.
Winter needs a full 2 seasons before we can really pass judgement.


Open flame throwers......

Oh....and Frings. He's no SUPERHERO. So let's let him play one position well and not be all things - to all fans. 2 B I G mistakes in in 2 games. Scorn me for not being absolute in my fondness. He's good. But we can't expect a player of his age to do e v e r y t h i n g.

Also - because so many think that it only take 1 year or 16 months to make an MLS playoff contender (like NY, LA, RSL, KC, CLB, etc. sarcasm) here's my request....for the sake of argument....those who think that we deserve a coaching change every year, please speak up.

And for the record - I love that Craiger has assumed a pseudonym and thinks that no one will figure out it's Lumpy :poke:

[Beach_Red]

How soon we forget. I guess that Preki year wiped out everything that came before it. Too bad, because there were some entertaining games - and some of them were even wins.

[ag futbol]

4-4-2 hoofball like the rest of the league it is then!!
losing isnt enjoyable for anyone to watch, but surely you can attest that even losing games can show improvement that's not reflective in points. the only thing that looked disjointed to me was our defense, but then again, it always is. i don't see how that reflects a complete lack of technical skills elsewhere on the pitch. its a pretty rash generalization. it's almost akin to saying that nothing else went right. there's a difference between 3-2 and 3-0.
I hate to break it to you, but there are multiple teams in this league playing 4-3-3. In fact one of them did it today, won 3-2 and was using two of our former players.

I also think it's a little bit ridiculous to assume the end of Aron Winter means the end of total football. Someone else can pick the ball up and run with it, should that be the continued vision of this club.

[TFC USA]

At this point I don't care about the style we play. We could be Wimbledon FC for all I care.

I want WINNING soccer, which we have not been remotely close to in our entire history. Well, the closest we came we lost 5-0 in the must-win to make the playoffs against the worst team in the MLS.

[Beach_Red]

A few thoughts....



Also - because so many think that it only take 1 year or 16 months to make an MLS playoff contender (like NY, LA, RSL, KC, CLB, etc. sarcasm) here's my request....for the sake of argument....those who think that we deserve a coaching change every year, please speak up.

And for the record - I love that Craiger has assumed a pseudonym and thinks that no one will figure out it's Lumpy :poke:


Maybe you could tell us how many games with zero points earned would be enough?

[ExiledRed]

4-4-2 hoofball like the rest of the league it is then!!
losing isnt enjoyable for anyone to watch, but surely you can attest that even losing games can show improvement that's not reflective in points. the only thing that looked disjointed to me was our defense, but then again, it always is. i don't see how that reflects a complete lack of technical skills elsewhere on the pitch. its a pretty rash generalization. it's almost akin to saying that nothing else went right. there's a difference between 3-2 and 3-0.

Your first argument is redundant, since when have I called for 4-4-2 hoofball?

Basically what you're saying is that if I cant see value in the fanciful method that we are losing games, nor the highly purported technical skills that are supposedly on display, but currently unable to win games for us, I am a typical brit who's knowledge of soccer stops at kicking the ball to the big guy.

You cannot consistently improve while your record gets consistently worse, its all an illusion buddy. Technical skill is what wins games. We dont do that.

[Lumpy]

You have got to be kidding, it is NOT more enjoyable to watch. It is no longer possible to pretend that you are a more sophisticated soccer expert and can explain away every loss as an incremental improvement. It is obvious that the team is disjointed, unhappy and performing like a team that is about to go 0-8 and there are no technical skills on display that are strong enough to prevent this repeated humiliation of our badge.

Sorry but it is more enjoyable to watch. I have never said I was a soccer sophisticate unlike some others have professed to be . My sport is basketball. I guess that makes me a basketball sophisticate. You have suffered years of humiliation with TFC so what difference does a few more make.

[ExiledRed]

Maybe you could tell us how many games with zero points earned would be enough?

We actually need a poll on this.

How many straight losses are required before its evident that Winter has lost the plot?

1) 1-7
2) 8-10
3)10-15
4)15-20
5)20-30
6)Every game
7)He should be given another season even if we lose every single game

[Richard]

Sell the team MLSE! That is all.

[ExiledRed]

Sorry but it is more enjoyable to watch. I have never said I was a soccer sophisticate unlike some others have professed to be . My sport is basketball. I guess that makes me a basketball sophisticate. You have suffered years of humiliation with TFC so what difference does a few more make.

Im sorry, I dont claim to be sophisticate either, but I know good football when Im watching it, and you're practically admitting to me that you havent been watching the game long enough to hold a good debate on the subject. At the same time, you are being very prolific with your posts and practically baiting the anti-winter camp with ridiculous assertations.

A few more years of futility could be the death of this team buddy. Were not in the NBA here.

[__wowza]

Your first argument is redundant, since when have I called for 4-4-2 hoofball?

Basically what you're saying is that if I cant see value in the fanciful method that we are losing games, nor the highly purported technical skills that are supposedly on display, but currently unable to win games for us, I am a typical brit who's knowledge of soccer stops at kicking the ball to the big guy.

You cannot consistently improve while your record gets consistently worse, its all an illusion buddy. Technical skill is what wins games. We dont do that.

how is my first argument redundant?

you havent called it hoofball, but i seem to remember that up until last year most of the league was still in the 4-4-2 longball phase. in fact, it often characterized style the league and one of the reasons why parity in the league was the order of the day. it was the "go-to" formation or style of play, you could win with it, you could lose with it. i'm questioning your knowledge of soccer under the basis that a teams progression can be marked in the W-L column, that improvement must necessarily mean more wins. that's like saying we can roll out 100 broken streetcars but saying "well, transit seems to be progressing nicely! it's one hell of an illusion seeing us play so well when in reality, im actually watching a crappy team that's worse then where we were 6 years ago.

[adam1001]

Honestly, Winter should just walk off the job for the sake of his own dignity. His coaching career is essentially done.
Words cannot describe how pathetic our defense is. Not one of them was marking an RSL player on the last goal.

[Lumpy]

Im sorry, I dont claim to be sophisticate either, but I know good football when Im watching it, and you're practically admitting to me that you havent been watching the game long enough to hold a good debate on the subject. At the same time, you are being very prolific with your posts and practically baiting the anti-winter camp with ridiculous assertations.

A few more years of futility could be the death of this team buddy. Were not in the NBA here.

I have posted 23 times. You have posted 5744. I will never be able to reach that level. If I disagree with your statements please don't consider it baiting. Obviously I will never change your mind so that would not be logical. I hereby declare "I am not a soccer expert" so it is not necessary to repeat that. The team will not die life will go on. Good night.

[DOMIN8R]

Maybe you could tell us how many games with zero points earned would be enough?

So can I interpret that - if we loose 7 games at any given time, we should change our coach? Okay. That's one approach. It's one that many recent successful MLS teams have not shared. I respect your point of view. But I don't agree with it. I just can't buy into throwing out management everytime we hit a bad patch. I think that CCL, the end of our last season and the fact that we aren't loosing 5-0 like we use to makes me want to hold out a bit longer before going through wholesale change......AGAIN.

Of course, history may prove me wrong.

[ExiledRed]

how is my first argument redundant?

you havent called it hoofball, but i seem to remember that up until last year most of the league was still in the 4-4-2 longball phase. in fact, it often characterized style the league and one of the reasons why parity in the league was the order of the day. it was the "go-to" formation or style of play, you could win with it, you could lose with it. i'm questioning your knowledge of soccer under the basis that a teams progression can be marked in the W-L column, that improvement must necessarily mean more wins. that's like saying we can roll out 100 broken streetcars but saying "well, transit seems to be progressing nicely! it's one hell of an illusion seeing us play so well when in reality, im actually watching a crappy team that's worse then where we were 6 years ago.

You're first argument was an assumption that I wanted a return to 4-4-2, or that is what I believe would be the consequence of losing Winter. Its just a false premise, so its redundant.

Since you want to question my knowledge of soccer based on the fact that I believe any improvement you have seen to be illusory and unsupported by statistics or visual evidence.
I in return, and without trying to be half as aggressive, question your knowledge of soccer based on the assumption that 4-4-2 is the single alternative to what we are currently watching, and that what is currently on display is a competent development of a system based on that of Ajax's.

Im not sure I understand the streetcar analogy, 100 broken streetcars and transit is improving? that's pretty much summing up the pro-winter camp's argument in my opinion.

[ManUtd4ever]

Heartbreaking loss, and to the credit of the players, they played hard enough to earn a result tonight.

I genuinely feel bad for Winter, but it just seems like the situation is beyond redemption at this point. It's time for him and the club to part ways if TFC is to have any hope of salvaging the season and qualifying for the CCL.

It's truly remarkable that a coach could take his team to unprecedented levels of success and fultility within the span of several weeks.

[Redcoe15]

Spent the day in London. Got back to watch the match that I recorded.

This is my response to it:

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/7838/fuuuuuuu.png

That is all. :facepalm:

[rocker]

Im sorry, I dont claim to be sophisticate either, but I know good football when Im watching it, and you're practically admitting to me that you havent been watching the game long enough to hold a good debate on the subject. At the same time, you are being very prolific with your posts and practically baiting the anti-winter camp with ridiculous assertations.

A few more years of futility could be the death of this team buddy. Were not in the NBA here.

He's baiting people? I actually agree with him and so, it seems, do others on this board.

I believe this team plays much more "pleasing to the eye" soccer than, for example, the Preki team. That was Lumpy's main point, a point I would probably call a fact if I could go back to the archives and read all the posts complaining about how boring we looked under Preki ball.

I know the followup comment will be "yeah, but we won more under Preki." But back then, only a few people were saying "hey, Preki got us close to the playoffs." Most people were saying "glad he's gone, we need to play a more pleasing style."

[jloome]

Your first argument is redundant, since when have I called for 4-4-2 hoofball?

Basically what you're saying is that if I cant see value in the fanciful method that we are losing games, nor the highly purported technical skills that are supposedly on display, but currently unable to win games for us, I am a typical brit who's knowledge of soccer stops at kicking the ball to the big guy.

You cannot consistently improve while your record gets consistently worse, its all an illusion buddy. Technical skill is what wins games. We dont do that.

You're simply not being objective tonight. They're right. They are more fun to watch and they do play better offensively. I agree Winter doesn 't look like he can turn it around because the end result is the same. But to conflate a lack of wins into a lack of entertainment tells me you're not being objective. And before you bring up some silly argument about how long I've been watching football, I'm in my fourth decade of it on BOTH sides of the pond.

[jloome]

How soon we forget. I guess that Preki year wiped out everything that came before it. Too bad, because there were some entertaining games - and some of them were even wins.

Not many. Not enough to make too many stick out. 4-1 over KC about three seasons ago. The first win over Chicago. Other than that, most of our points for five straight seasons came from scrapping out games in which we were decidedly second best. There were significant chunks of tonight's game where we looked better offensively than they did. But we lack heart and just enough intelligence to stay in games. That's not necessarily a technical fault in any respect, ergo the style is more enjoyable. It still means we might have a manager who can't motivate and be lacking a decent enough central defence to win many games this year. But it doesn't change that the style is more enjoyable to watch.

[ExiledRed]

I have posted 23 times. You have posted 5744. I will never be able to reach that level. If I disagree with your statements please don't consider it baiting. Obviously I will never change your mind so that would not be logical. I hereby declare "I am not a soccer expert" so it is not necessary to repeat that. The team will not die life will go on. Good night.

I didnt know a polite way of saying it. You've admitted you're new to the sport and the team, but then you talk about how great it is that were losing pretty, and the marked improvement you see in a team that is underperforming its predecessors by a mile. Do you really think this team capable of a 4-0 win?

I dont think were losing pretty, I think were losing ugly and consistently at a level we have never done, and we are already fifteen months into the coach's tenure. Thats not a good sign of anything, its not a display of improvement and its not more enjoyable to watch.

[Brooker]

Bring back MoJo!

[DoubleUp]

played well in spurts but upgrades are needed(mainly in the middle) and having a dynamic "runner" as your target striker opens up alot space , if you watch other mls teams most are simply better than us in all departments.

the defenders wouldnt look so bad if they had people tackling and cutting shit out before it got really dangerous.

[ExiledRed]

You're simply not being objective tonight. They're right. They are more fun to watch and they do play better offensively. I agree Winter doesn 't look like he can turn it around because the end result is the same. But to conflate a lack of wins into a lack of entertainment tells me you're not being objective. And before you bring up some silly argument about how long I've been watching football, I'm in my fourth decade of it on BOTH sides of the pond.

Im really not questioning anybody's expertise, except Lumpy who admits inexperience and then condescends. I've always respected your opinion, but I still think that you're too technically minded to see the big picture here. You know deep down that Winter is out of his depth trying to install this system in this league, and although you are seeing improvement of some kind its never going to translate into anything substantial under this coach.

I really dont think watching players attempt something different and failing is improvement, or any more attractive than watching them fail at defensive, or even longball. The results are showing that its not working, and Winters methods arent able to take any evidence of this elusive 'system' that you are seeing, to the next level.

[Redcoe15]

Bring back MoJo!
Please tell me you're being ironic.

[Code Red]

Heartbreaking loss, and to the credit of the players, they played hard enough to earn a result tonight.

I genuinely feel bad for Winter, but it just seems like the situation is beyond redemption at this point. It's time for him and the club to part ways if TFC is to have any hope of salvaging the season and qualifying for the CCL.

It's truly remarkable that a coach could take his team to unprecedented levels of success and fultility within the span of several weeks.

Exactly what I was thinking after tonight's loss. It's hard to comprehend how the same team can go from a high like that to the low we find ourselves in. I don't think anyone of us could have predicted this.

[aboyandhisdog]

Skipped this one...as I anticipated the eventual outcome. Should have played ProLine...man, if TFC can play 3 in a week, I'm set! Anyway, just tuned in to watch the Winter post-game explanation...just as expected, he broke out the "we were the better team on the pitch and should have gotten the win" bullshit. Hahaha...I tune in to TFC TV each week just to hear that.

[ExiledRed]

Skipped this one...as I anticipated the eventual outcome. Should have played ProLine...man, if TFC can play 3 in a week, I'm set! Anyway, just tuned in to watch the Winter post-game explanation...just as expected, he broke out the "we were the better team on the pitch and should have gotten the win" bullshit. Hahaha...I tune in to TFC TV each week just to hear that.

we werent the better team on the pitch, and the draw was the best we could have hoped for, there was no question of winning.

[kodiakTFC]

Point form notes..

-Can't wait for Soolsma and Danny K to come back
-Plata was beyond awful. No confidence?
-Avila has earned a starting position
-Congrats to Henry for his first goal
-I'm a a fan of Ecks but even I recognize how awful he was tonight
-Dunfield is invisible

[Greatest Ripoff]

Skipped this one...as I anticipated the eventual outcome. Should have played ProLine...man, if TFC can play 3 in a week, I'm set! Anyway, just tuned in to watch the Winter post-game explanation...just as expected, he broke out the "we were the better team on the pitch and should have gotten the win" bullshit. Hahaha...I tune in to TFC TV each week just to hear that.

It you just want to follow score lines and not watch any of the matches, you should support West Ham. Great results this season but really dire football. I've had the fortune/misfortune of seeing a few of them live and kinda wished I only paid attention to the table.

Not happy with the result tonight but it was a great match to watch.

[Whoop]

I don't know why people assume if TFC ditches the 4-3-3/3-4-3 TFC is automatically going to a 4-4-2?

I don't care if TFC plays a 5-4-1, a 5-3-2, 4-2-4, etc...

Just find what works with the players on board at the moment, whatever it is... hell... go to 6-4-0 if need be.

But why do people automatically assume it's going to be 4-4-2 and/or long ball...?

[ExiledRed]

I don't know why people assume if TFC ditches the 4-3-3/3-4-3 TFC is automatically going to a 4-4-2?

I don't care if TFC plays a 5-4-1, a 5-3-2, 4-2-4, etc...

Just find what works with the players on board at the moment, whatever it is... hell... go to 6-4-0 if need be.

But why do people automatically assume it's going to be 4-4-2 and/or long ball...?

Its like saying if you're not a christian, you must worship the devil.

[Cashcleaner]

It was certainly a much closer game than most others we've played this year, but I'd hesitate to say that we deserved a point here. Looking at the result beyond the context of our current record, it wasn't a terrible match by any stretch. Unfortunately, we absolutely needed a win and while I certainly saw some sparks of skill and aggression on the pitch today, the team just didn't deliver. Obviously, Avila and Henry deserve some slack. Same goes with Johnson who had a number of chances but couldn't find the back of the net but still did a good job supporting the attack. Actually, the offense in general had a notable game - it was (again) the backline that is more responsible for this loss than any other component of the team. That said, it was good to see more life out of Eckersley, though he looked really rough out there at times, didn't he?

I'm not gonna lie, the game could have went either way, though I was fearing a blowout by RSL. Of course, regardless of how the game went for us, the result is all that matters and we're now 0-7. By all probability, TFC should have accidentally won a game by now!

So now the question before us is clear. With our chances to reach the playoffs now astronomical, will the club pull the plug on Winter's tenure?

[ExiledRed]

He has to resign before he breaks that futility record.

Imagine, he could actually go on to make the record unbreakable.

[Couchy81]

Man that was devastating..... oh wait no it wasn't, because we were playing for the single point anyways.

[Brooker]

Please tell me you're being ironic.

I was being sarcastic. :)

[LesH]

Haven't seen the match.
My conclusion after reading the match thread and this one: nothing new under the sun.

[Roogsy]

Heartbreaking. I felt for the players on the pitch.

No long rant. No complaints about this or that.

I'm just sad. They deserved something out of that game.

[Couchy81]

Haven't seen the match.
My conclusion after reading the match thread and this one: nothing new under the sun.

Actually there was something new that I haven't noticed in the other losses, these players are really feeling bad. After the last goal they gave up Kocic took it real hard, was on the ground longer than any goalie I've ever seen without an injury, other players sprawled out on the ground.... They really wanted something out of this game... Like... really. I haven't seen that much agony in defeat in an MLS match before.... Also Beckerman had this look on his face when he was giving the post game handshakes like... pure empathy... it was pretty brutal.

[Roogsy]

I noticed that too.

[Roogsy]

Oh and that Henry yellow card was BS.

[QSIM]

Yeah, he didn't even "remove" his shirt...

Any clue what was written on the undershirt?

[PAOK17]

Ok the problem is really me!

Since moving to England, after the Colorado home win in September, TFC is winless in MLS.

8 losses, 4 draws!!!

I think I owe it to the fans and team to move back...

[Oranje]

Ok the problem is really me!

Since moving to England, after the Colorado home win in September, TFC is winless in MLS.

8 losses, 4 draws!!!

I think I owe it to the fans and team to move back...

What are you talking about, PAOK Salonika is in the champions League Playoffs, all is set in the world. But in all seriousness, TFC deserved the draw

[PAOK17]

haha yeah but they are always in the CL playoffs and only made it to the qualifying round once in the past 5 years.

Anyway nothing more we can say. You can't expect to be getting any points out of games you let in 3 goals. Even if we still had DeRo we would still need to be scoring 4 goals a game to get 3 points! We would have to be the highest scoring team in MLS history to be a winning team with this back line.

[69Chevy396]

haha yeah but they are always in the CL playoffs and only made it to the qualifying round once in the past 5 years.

Anyway nothing more we can say. You can't expect to be getting any points out of games you let in 3 goals. Even if we still had DeRo we would still need to be scoring 4 goals a game to get 3 points! We would have to be the highest scoring team in MLS history to be a winning team with this back line.

This team is simply not MLS caliber. Look at our best player: Last game he gives the ball away in the first minute resulting in the winning goal. Last night he takes a highschool attempt at a penalty kick (was he afraid of damaging a toe nail?). When the team was close, and he had a wonderful opportunity to take a clear shot on net, he fans on the ball. Did the real Frings stay in Germany? Who exactly is this guy? From what I saw last night only JDG (his best game) and Avilla could start for any other mls team. Building TFC into a winning club must take into account the competition. You try to match what the rest of the league is doing, and try to do it better. Instead, we have a club that has, from day one, tried to do everything their own way: rookie coaches, rookie managers, constant experimentation with players having no quality or ambition to actually play hard in mls (Robert, Ruiz et al). When they do make a trade it always sucks cause nobody does their homework. I swear, I could do a better job....

[v00d00daddy]

Im sorry, I dont claim to be sophisticate either, but I know good football when Im watching it, and you're practically admitting to me that you havent been watching the game long enough to hold a good debate on the subject. At the same time, you are being very prolific with your posts and practically baiting the anti-winter camp with ridiculous assertations.

A few more years of futility could be the death of this team buddy. Were not in the NBA here.

The mere fact that you can watch that game last night and blame Winter is why people are getting up in arms. Individual mistakes cost TFC the game last night. Not tactics, not player selection, not motivation. Mistakes that people who get paid to play should NEVER make.


Honestly, Winter should just walk off the job for the sake of his own dignity. His coaching career is essentially done.
Words cannot describe how pathetic our defense is. Not one of them was marking an RSL player on the last goal.

Right. Because players not marking their men is the coaches fault. LOL


Not many. Not enough to make too many stick out. 4-1 over KC about three seasons ago. The first win over Chicago. Other than that, most of our points for five straight seasons came from scrapping out games in which we were decidedly second best. There were significant chunks of tonight's game where we looked better offensively than they did. But we lack heart and just enough intelligence to stay in games. That's not necessarily a technical fault in any respect, ergo the style is more enjoyable. It still means we might have a manager who can't motivate and be lacking a decent enough central defence to win many games this year. But it doesn't change that the style is more enjoyable to watch.

Sorry but last nights game had nothing to do with not motivating the back line. The back line made boneheaded plays that no coach in the world can "motivate" out. No amount of motivation is going to get Adrian Cann to put his head on a ball when he should (or even look at the fucking ball...lol). No amount of motivation was going to get Frings not to hit that penalty like a 6th grader.


Im really not questioning anybody's expertise, except Lumpy who admits inexperience and then condescends. I've always respected your opinion, but I still think that you're too technically minded to see the big picture here. You know deep down that Winter is out of his depth trying to install this system in this league, and although you are seeing improvement of some kind its never going to translate into anything substantial under this coach.

I really dont think watching players attempt something different and failing is improvement, or any more attractive than watching them fail at defensive, or even longball. The results are showing that its not working, and Winters methods arent able to take any evidence of this elusive 'system' that you are seeing, to the next level.

Yesterdays game came down to the players fucking it all up. Plain and simple. Previous games had lots of examples of poor tactics...poor player selection and Winter being out coached. Last night was not one of them.

I've already pointed out a couple of the individual errors that screwed things up but there were more. Aceval and Morgan getting turned around by simple moves by Grabavoy.....Eckersley sprinting up field like he's fucking Cafu and just leaving the ball there for the counter attack. A simple ball being played into the box that is made to look like a killer cross because Eckersley is lost and on the attackers outside shoulder. So what does he do? He fouls the guy (would have conceded a penalty if not for the own goal)

It was a shit show of brain farts that did in the team last night. Because, outside of those INDIVIDUAL mistakes, the team played very well together. They moved the ball well, and more importantly, they moved off the ball like a real football team.

I saw progress last night. I don't care if others didn't. I don't care if others want wins at all costs and can't see anything positive from a loss.

[Rene Kingsriver]

Oh and that Henry yellow card was BS.

I think the rule states that shirt doesn't necessarily have to be removed to get a card, if a slogan or statement of any kind is revealed then it's the same offence. Henry had I belong to jesus or something on his undershirt. I may be wrong on this though.

[tfcleeds]

The thing is, ever since the first match of the season at Rogers Centre, we've had the same problem and it hasn't been addressed. We can play attractive football all we want, and can score bucketfuls of goals if we want, but unless the defense, especially the CB situation improves, we aren't going to win games. Yeah, I see lots of progress on the pitch - but I also see no progress whatsoever in an area that has been known to be one of our main issues since the current managerial team took over. Why it's taken so long to address this, I don't know. That IS on Winter and Mariner, regardless of how much at fault certain individual players may have been last night.

[69Chevy396]

The thing is, ever since the first match of the season at Rogers Centre, we've had the same problem and it hasn't been addressed. We can play attractive football all we want, and can score bucketfuls of goals if we want, but unless the defense, especially the CB situation improves, we aren't going to win games. Yeah, I see lots of progress on the pitch - but I also see no progress whatsoever in an area that has been known to be one of our main issues since the current managerial team took over. Why it's taken so long to address this, I don't know. That IS on Winter and Mariner, regardless of how much at fault certain individual players may have been last night.

This is precisely the reason mlse has failed us. This is not new. Winter's tactics are based on a theory, an untried system that is not used in mls. It is workable only if he has stalwart defenders. However, the defenders on this team are either too young and inexperienced, too slow and stupid, or just unskilled and stupid. Not their fault. So blaming the players for making brain farts etc is pointless...like blaming your dog for not ever learning how to cook you breakfast. TFC can be entertaining, and they were last night at times. But winning takes a team effort and right now, and for six years, this team has yet to produce an mls level product.

[v00d00daddy]

The thing is, ever since the first match of the season at Rogers Centre, we've had the same problem and it hasn't been addressed. We can play attractive football all we want, and can score bucketfuls of goals if we want, but unless the defense, especially the CB situation improves, we aren't going to win games. Yeah, I see lots of progress on the pitch - but I also see no progress whatsoever in an area that has been known to be one of our main issues since the current managerial team took over. Why it's taken so long to address this, I don't know. That IS on Winter and Mariner, regardless of how much at fault certain individual players may have been last night.


What was to address from last night?

Cann? He caused the first goal. Is he not in the future plans of this club? Does he need to be replaced?

Eckersley? He caused the second goal. Isn't he part of the future of this club?

I think we all know they both are. So what was the solution?

Should mariner and winter have found better players to replace them?

Or should we just call a spade a spade and admit that they (along with mistakes by frings...aceval...and Morgan) cost Tfc the game?

[narduch]

4-4-2 hoofball like the rest of the league it is then!!

This is an annoying misconception that keeps getting posted.

There are a lot of teams playing a possession oriented passing game in this league. I know it might be shocking for some, but it is possible to have a different formation and still build your attack through passing.

I'll admit I haven't seen every MLS team play this season, but there is very little route 1, hoof-and-hope soccer being played in this league.

TFC can turf Winter/Mariner and still continue with its 'philosophy'.

[tfcleeds]

What was to address from last night?

Cann? He caused the first goal. Is he not in the future plans of this club? Does he need to be replaced?

Eckersley? He caused the second goal. Isn't he part of the future of this club?

I think we all know they both are. So what was the solution?

Should mariner and winter have found better players to replace them?

Or should we just call a spade a spade and admit that they (along with mistakes by frings...aceval...and Morgan) cost Tfc the game?

I wasn't making a comment about Eckersley, just to be clear. But Cann clearly is a ghost of the player that we saw in 2010, and whatever strengths he seemed to possess may have been illusory due to the style we were playing at the time. I hope it's a question of him still being not 100% match fit after his long layoff, but he's made schoolboy mistakes out there that have nothing to due with lack of match fitness.

As to your bolded point, quite simply, yes. Aceval clearly isn't the answer, and Winter's insistence on having Harden in the lineup earlier in the season was mind-boggling.

[narduch]

Should mariner and winter have found better players to replace them?

Yes. Definitely. That's what the off-season was for.

Part of the reason TFC is struggling is that there have been few (if any) off season additions that have been noteworthy.

TFC doesn't live in a bubble.

So while the rest of the MLS teams use the off-season to improve, TFC is essentially the same team from last year, in terms of the difference makers on this team.

Add that to a coach that appears to be out of his depth and we are where we are. There's no column in the standings for moral victories.

[T-boy]

I don't understand why some of you assume that 4-3-3 is exciting football and 4-4-2 is boring long ball football? It's not that way at all! 4-4-2 can be fantastic football. Equally, Winter's current version of 4-3-3 is very boring!

TFC have NEVER had a manager who didn't just believe in counter attacking football - which to me IS boring football, no matter what formation you put out! MoJo, Carver, Preki (especially), and now Winter all played slow, counter attacking football, relying on TFC breaking away from the opponents amount of posession. That IS boring football, as it means the opposition are always dictating the pace of the place.

I'd like to see a TFC team, no matter what formation, go out and REALLY attack, especially at home. There is nothing like watching a free flowing attacking side, shooting on sight.

I don't like this slow midfield football, I'd much prefer to see the football in the opponents final third for most of the game.

Formation is irrelevant, style of play is more important if you want exciting football. I'm pretty sure if Winter changed to 4-4-2, the style of football would be just the same. He clearly doesn't want attacking football, whatever formation he's used so far, the opposition always dictates play and TFC rely on a counter attack to score.

[OgtheDim]

...TFC can turf Winter/Mariner and still continue with its 'philosophy'.

The philosophy we use is a bit more subtle then just offensive non-hoofball. E.g. It includes 3 at the front. Only a few MLS teams play that and only a few management types would support that. A change now from this approach would mean 18 months of more upheaval.

[narduch]

The philosophy we use is a bit more subtle then just offensive non-hoofball. E.g. It includes 3 at the front. Only a few MLS teams play that and only a few management types would support that. A change now from this approach would mean 18 months of more upheaval.

This team needs upheaval anyways. Better to get it started soon than later.

[trane]

You're simply not being objective tonight. They're right. They are more fun to watch and they do play better offensively. I agree Winter doesn 't look like he can turn it around because the end result is the same. But to conflate a lack of wins into a lack of entertainment tells me you're not being objective. And before you bring up some silly argument about how long I've been watching football, I'm in my fourth decade of it on BOTH sides of the pond.

I agree. In certain phases of the game, we have improved. Defensively we are still way to mistake prone. But the bottom line is that we are dropping point, and Winter has given no indication that he can turn it around. So time to look for a replacement.

And for those that whisht to get into it takes time, and stability blah, blah, blah. I am not getting into any debates, at this point there is not validity to the other side of the argument, Winter has had enough time to show that he can do it, and he has not. If this club is serious it has to start looking for a new manager.

[trane]

The philosophy we use is a bit more subtle then just offensive non-hoofball. E.g. It includes 3 at the front. Only a few MLS teams play that and only a few management types would support that. A change now from this approach would mean 18 months of more upheaval.

Bull, you do not now how long it would take a new managment to turn things around. The team is not that far off, it is just clear that winter cannot do it.

[OgtheDim]

I'd like to see a TFC team, no matter what formation, go out and REALLY attack, especially at home. There is nothing like watching a free flowing attacking side, shooting on sight.

I don't like this slow midfield football, I'd much prefer to see the football in the opponents final third for most of the game.

.


I'm curious where you came from to get that sort of preference.

Not a fan of Barcelona I take it? Or Chelsea for that matter? Or pretty much any other MLS team but NYRB?

Actually, your preference sounds a lot like watching highlights of English games.

[T-boy]

The philosophy we use is a bit more subtle then just offensive non-hoofball. E.g. It includes 3 at the front. Only a few MLS teams play that and only a few management types would support that. A change now from this approach would mean 18 months of more upheaval.

I'm going to write the same thing over and over again on this forum until people get it.

O'Neill at Sunderland, Di Matteo at Chelsea, Rednapp at Pompey, they ALL turned around their team within a couple of months. It CAN be done, and a good manager can turn around a poor team in just a few games.

The next manager, IF he is good, won't need 18 months! Winter shouldn't have needed 18 months!

Why are you all so scared of changing manager? Most teams go through MANY managers before they find the "right" one.

Winter is a failure, we need to move on and find the next manager.

[OgtheDim]

Bull, you do not now how long it would take a new management to turn things around. The team is not that far off, it is just clear that winter cannot do it.

This is the internet........opinion is all we got.

And I'm hardly the only one with that opinion.

[bigredone]

I know this sounds crazy, but even though Henry scored I have a hard time with taking Ecks off. He seems to be the only player that cares and has any heart for the game. Not his greatest game by far, but I don't know how well he will perform through the rest of the season now. The teams moral is probably lower than our position in the standings.

And Aceval should try out to play the line for the Argos.

[OgtheDim]

I'm going to write the same thing over and over again on this forum until people get it.

O'Neill at Sunderland, Di Matteo at Chelsea, Rednapp at Pompey, they ALL turned around their team within a couple of months. It CAN be done, and a good manager can turn around a poor team in just a few games.

...

Oh please.....the situation of the EPL is vastly different from MLS in player quality, availability within the roster of options and resources to get such a turn around done (Rednapp bought his turn around for example and the team is going down to the 3rd tier because of it).

And for every 1 of those quick turn around, there are still 3 to 4 others which did not turn it around so fast...........but of course nobody talks about Blackburn, QPR, Coventry, Chesterfield, Preston, Liverpool, Inter, Hereford, just to name a few.

[v00d00daddy]

If I had to guess eckersley came out for doing exactly what the coaching staff has told him he needs to curb.

My guess is that he was told something to the effect of:

"Richard...we love your passion and work ethic but you need to make sure that when you push up the right side with the ball, into the opponents half, you make better decisions with the ball. Because when you don't we lose possession and a good team like RSL will torch YOU on the counter. You'll find yourself having to track back the better part of the whole field and by then you'll be too tired and out of the play to make sure you're goal side of your man. That will allow RSL to put a simple ball into the box that will expose you and cause you to act rashly. Please make better decisions this game"

What does he do?

Well watch the play leading up to the second goal and you'll see it. Lol

[trane]

This is the internet........opinion is all we got.

And I'm hardly the only one with that opinion.


But our managers current record is not opinion it is fact. and hence the only logical thing is to change directions. yes again. it is unfortunate but necessary.

[Shakes McQueen]

Whatever you think of the job Winter is doing, that was a tough result to watch. The guys really wanted something from this game, and probably deserved it based on their play.

Bleh. This has been such a heartbreaking season so far. On a variety of levels.

- Scott

[PopePouri]

When Rongen said that we were playing counterattacking football, my initial reaction was WTF? Why would you chase the ball in altitude? Aren't we supposed to a possession team?

[boban]

Sell the team MLSE! That is all.

This. As that Metallica song goes ... 'Nothing Else Matters'.!!!

[trane]

If I had to guess eckersley came out for doing exactly what the coaching staff has told him he needs to curb.

My guess is that he was told something to the effect of:

"Richard...we love your passion and work ethic but you need to make sure that when you push up the right side with the ball, into the opponents half, you make better decisions with the ball. Because when you don't we lose possession and a good team like RSL will torch YOU on the counter. You'll find yourself having to track back the better part of the whole field and by then you'll be too tired and out of the play to make sure you're goal side of your man. That will allow RSL to put a simple ball into the box that will expose you and cause you to act rashly. Please make better decisions this game"

What does he do?

Well watch the play leading up to the second goal and you'll see it. Lol

This is has been a problem with him all a long. He is a good defender when he is at the back, and he is good comming forward, but to often he gets caught, and lets us get caught, on the counter.

[trane]

When Rongen said that we were playing counterattacking football, my initial reaction was WTF? Why would you chase the ball in altitude? Aren't we supposed to a possession team?

Generaly a counter attacking team is not one that chases the ball, but sits back and defends, leting the other team push forward, and then counter's quickly when they gain posession, before the other team is able to get back in good defensive positions.

[bigredone]

Very unfortunate about his knee hitting the ball. Not too bad the lead up. He is making an effort and not standing around the ball like the majority of the team. Trying, playing hard is his style and if there are some mistakes they are not as numerous as others. Ecks is taking too much heat for this and it is not deserved.

[Canary10]

The team is cursed. That's not on the manager.

[TFCmatty]

Very disappointed with the result last night. With as many problems as we have, I think luck has a bit to do with it and we should have come out of Rio Tinto with a point. Oh well, that's how football goes sometimes. Another loss and the same questions are being asked. Our back line needs to be addressed. I'm not sure why its taking Winter so long, but surely now he must see it as priority number one.

I watched the game on an American stream, and when Ecks came off apparently he refused to shake Winters hand? Can anyone confirm that? Wondering if its just a case of him not wanting to come out or if locker room problems are deeper than we thought....

[Canary10]

Very unfortunate about his knee hitting the ball. Not too bad the lead up. He is making an effort and not standing around the ball like the majority of the team. Trying, playing hard is his style and if there are some mistakes they are not as numerous as others. Ecks is taking too much heat for this and it is not deserved.

Ecks was complete shit last night. Can someone implant a brain in him?

[trane]

You make your own luck. The team is not cursed. Not team is cursed. This team is underachieving and not playing well enough.

On the positive side bothe Vancouver and Montreal won. I guess they are blessed.

[ag futbol]

I don't understand why some of you assume that 4-3-3 is exciting football and 4-4-2 is boring long ball football? It's not that way at all! 4-4-2 can be fantastic football. Equally, Winter's current version of 4-3-3 is very boring!

I just don't get how the retort to getting rid of Winter is: "We're going back to Preki ball!". Ugghhh no, we can switch to any style we want

We're just going to have to hire a coach that is actually credible. Complaining about the players who make mistakes is absolutely hilarious. 1) they are his players 2) any team that's as poorly organized tactically as we are is going to have those issues. What makes anybody think he's going to find better players going forward? Just let him try the same thing for the third time and see if it works... Mo Johnston redux but with a fancy story on top of it about total football provided by someone with no track record of success as a head coach.

[Canary10]

You make your own luck. The team is not cursed. Not team is cursed. This team is underachieving and not playing well enough.

On the positive side bothe Vancouver and Montreal won. I guess they are blessed.

Cursed. How could you watch that game last night and come to any other conclusion?!

[trane]

^0-7. Tha is how. This is not our first loss. Saying we are cursed is just another excuse.

I understand that people love the club, but making excuse after excuse for the club and the manager is not helping.

[TFCwestcan]

Heartbreaking. I felt for the players on the pitch.

No long rant. No complaints about this or that.

I'm just sad. They deserved something out of that game.

The players looked gutted at the end.

it was one of the better games we played this season despite the errors.

I think we need to win in MTL for psychological reasons alone.

Avila's goal was a beaut, good to see the scoring spread around the forwards

yup heartbreaking indeed.

[Canary10]

They made Jameson Olave look like a pylon last night and yet we couldn't beat them. Cursed.

[Nuvinho]

Cann caused the 2nd goal as well in my opinion. He ducked his head. He should of headed it out towards the corner.

[Canary10]

^0-7. Tha is how. This is not our first loss. Saying we are cursed is just another excuse.

I understand that people love the club, but making excuse after excuse for the club and the manager is not helping.

There have been at least 3 games on top of last night that we deserved all 3 points. That's what happens when a team is cursed.

Can we also talk about getting rid of Eckersley if we're talking about firing Winter? Absolute piece of shit that kid is.

[ag futbol]

^0-7. Tha is how. This is not our first loss. Saying we are cursed is just another excuse.
To add to that, look how futile we are on so many levels.

We've played around 630 minutes of football to date and TFC has actually led a game for what... all of 20 minutes? We have the worst team in the league defensively and we are not great offensively either. There is being unlucky and there is ignoring the obvious.

TFC is unlucky not to have any earned any points thus far, but TFC is not unlucky to sit where they do in the standings. Luck cannot explain how crap this team is.

[prizby]

Skipped this one...as I anticipated the eventual outcome. Should have played ProLine...man, if TFC can play 3 in a week, I'm set! Anyway, just tuned in to watch the Winter post-game explanation...just as expected, he broke out the "we were the better team on the pitch and should have gotten the win" bullshit. Hahaha...I tune in to TFC TV each week just to hear that.

clearly you didn't listen to it then

[trane]

Canary,

Whatever man, we are not playing well enough. This is not just one game. I understand the players played hard, I understand that we had chances, but we are 0-7.

Anyway maybe we turn it around againt Montreal, but two more games of this must be the maximum that even the MLSE would accept.

By the way I believe in this group of players, other then the CB issue.

[Pinkie]

The players looked gutted at the end.

it was one of the better games we played this season despite the errors.

I think we need to win in MTL for psychological reasons alone.

Avila's goal was a beaut, good to see the scoring spread around the forwards

yup heartbreaking indeed.

this. Kocic' reaction after RSL scored pretty much summed up the entire season so far for me (apart from those apparent flukey CCL victories)

[billyfly]

What has Toronto done to deserve such sport team ineptitude?

[Canary10]

"Whatever man, we are not playing well enough. This is not just one game. I understand the plwe aayers played hard, I understand that we had chances, but we are 0-7."


I'm pissed and frustrated clearly, but seriously, you don't think we were the better team against Columbus, Chivas, Chicago? We should have walked out with one last night too. THey're not playing that badly. Where have they actually played bad? Honestly, I've watched most Vancouver games and they've gotten max points on games they've looked far worse than TFC.

[trane]

I am watching Novara v Juve, and Novara are clearly way bellow Juve in tallent, and they are lossing, but when you watch them you understand that it is not the manager, they are well organized and play smart, it is just that in one on one Juve is better, and when mistakes are made Juve capializes.

My point is that in football it is easy to know when the players are just not good enough, and when they are not organized, tacticaly sound so forth, meaning the manager is just not getting them to the place they sould be. I agree we have improved under Winter in certain ways, but we have not improved enough.

[billyfly]

Is it factually true that TFC have the worst sports record in NA of any team since its inception?

[trane]

I'm pissed and frustrated clearly, but seriously, you don't think we were the better team against Columbus, Chivas, Chicago? We should have walked out with one last night too. THey're not playing that badly. Where have they actually played bad? Honestly, I've watched most Vancouver games and they've gotten max points on games they've looked far worse than TFC.


It is about results. You cannot say you are the better team and yet we loss way more often then we win. You do not get points for style and effort. You gets points for wins and draws. The better team gets more points. The better team scores more goals then their opponents. That is football.

[ensco]

What has Toronto done to deserve such sport team ineptitude?

As the money in sports gets bigger and bigger, and players have more freedom to pick where they play, I think the issue of Canadian teams being in American leagues is becoming a much bigger deal.

It's not all of it, but part.

(Leafs are a special case, guys don't want to come here, but not because it's Canada)

[trane]

Is it factually true that TFC have the worst sports record in NA of any team since its inception?

Too me it is.

[Just One Man]

"Whatever man, we are not playing well enough. This is not just one game. I understand the plwe aayers played hard, I understand that we had chances, but we are 0-7."


I'm pissed and frustrated clearly, but seriously, you don't think we were the better team against Columbus, Chivas, Chicago? We should have walked out with one last night too. THey're not playing that badly. Where have they actually played bad? Honestly, I've watched most Vancouver games and they've gotten max points on games they've looked far worse than TFC.

These are excuses. 0-7 doesnt happen by fluke. You might catch some bad breaks along the way, but 0-7 doesn't just happen.

TFC has earned their record and all the "they played well"s or "they tried hard"s don't amount to dick.

[tfcleeds]

Is it factually true that TFC have the worst sports record in NA of any team since its inception?

Would be interesting to research the futility of different sports franchises. I know in the NFL Tampa Bay started out 0-26 until they won a game in their second season - but even they made the playoffs in their fifth season.

[Canary10]

It is about results. You cannot say you are the better team and yet we loss way more often then we win. You do not get points for style and effort. You gets points for wins and draws. The better team gets more points. The better team scores more goals then their opponents. That is football.

I hear you, I really do. But do you not wonder how the hell we're ever going to win when we're the better team most games and still lose? How do you fix that? It's not a question of style. Fuck, Frings get s caught in possessoin and misses a penalty in consecutive games? WTF?

[billyfly]

We need some virgin scarifices at a volcano.

If anyone can find me a virgin, we can head down to Vesuvio's on Dundas and do this sh*t.

[Nuvinho]

This is going to be a horrible week for TFC. Not only do they have a game against an expansion team that beat them down (mind you without our best player) earlier this month, but on Saturday they face DCU with both DeRo and Santos doing really well for their team.

I hope DeRo or Santos don't add fuel to the fire already happening here - media will sure ask about their stay here at TFC again.

[ensco]

Is it factually true that TFC have the worst sports record in NA of any team since its inception?

Yes. I did the math for the 4 major leagues plus MLS since 2007. Based on where teams finished (ie worst in 2007, 3rd worst in 2008, 4th worst in 2009, 6th worst in 2010, 3rd worst in 2011 ). I added up and got "17" as our coefficient of futility over 5 years. No one else is even close. And this excludes being dead last again in 2012!

[Just One Man]

I hear you, I really do. But do you not wonder how the hell we're ever going to win when we're the better team most games and still lose? How do you fix that? It's not a question of style. Fuck, Frings get s caught in possessoin and misses a penalty in consecutive games? WTF?

Were not! This is an excuse. The better team, by hook or by crook, scores more goals. If you are a better team, you make it happen. That is what winners do. I feel like I am going to Mike Singletary all up in this bitch.

[Canary10]

Now you're talking!! That's good thinking! Let's do it.

[Canary10]

Were not! This is an excuse. The better team, by hook or by crook, scores more goals. If you are a better team, you make it happen. That is what winners do. I feel like I am going to Mike Singletary all up in this bitch.

You're clearly not watching 80% of games in MLS.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

I think a 4-2-3-1 formation would work well.....two mid fielders to protect our CBs, I think Frings should be one of the CDMs......He has played in that formation in Germany.

[Rene Kingsriver]

"Whatever man, we are not playing well enough. This is not just one game. I understand the plwe aayers played hard, I understand that we had chances, but we are 0-7."


I'm pissed and frustrated clearly, but seriously, you don't think we were the better team against Columbus, Chivas, Chicago? We should have walked out with one last night too. THey're not playing that badly. Where have they actually played bad? Honestly, I've watched most Vancouver games and they've gotten max points on games they've looked far worse than TFC.

Columbus, Chivas & Chicago were on the road, they all did exactly as much as they needed to win. Being the better team is misleading and irrelevant, what significance is there to having more chances if they all come when you're already losing and chasing the game that's what you're supposed to do ffs.

[trane]

I hear you, I really do. But do you not wonder how the hell we're ever going to win when we're the better team most games and still lose? How do you fix that? It's not a question of style. Fuck, Frings get s caught in possessoin and misses a penalty in consecutive games? WTF?


We may the "better" team for 70-80 minutes of the game, but in those key 10-20 minutes we make the key mistakes which negate everything positive. You need to be the better team after the whistle has blown.

[Just One Man]

You're clearly not watching 80% of games in MLS.

Are you watching 80% of all games in MLS?

Does anybody?

[ExiledRed]

There have been at least 3 games on top of last night that we deserved all 3 points. That's what happens when a team is cursed.

Can we also talk about getting rid of Eckersley if we're talking about firing Winter? Absolute piece of shit that kid is.

And one more of our lads gets shafted, while Winter gets absolved of blame.

'Cursed' is superstition. It just cant mean anything real. We either win games or we dont, and we dont, thats not cursed. thats 'mismanaged.'

[Canary10]

I thought when I saw the formation last night, fuck, here we go again, Avila's a left winger now all of a sudden. Winter got that one right though.

[Canary10]

And one more of our lads gets shafted, while Winter gets absolved of blame.

'Cursed' is superstition. It just cant mean anything real. We either win games or we dont, and we dont, thats not cursed. thats 'mismanaged.'

Holy shit!! Winter is not getting the blame!! are you effing kidding me?!! He's the ONLY one getting blame! Let's talk a bit about how bad Eckersley has been for once!

[Canary10]

Or maybe about how sigining Ecks and Plata has hamstrung our finances under the cap? Who's job is that? (Mariner, I'm looking right at you).

[ExiledRed]

Holy shit!! Winter is not getting the blame!! are you effing kidding me?!! He's the ONLY one getting blame! Let's talk a bit about how bad Eckersley has been for once!

You're not blaming him. You're blaming everything from the players to black magic.

[Canary10]

^ I'm blaming everyone and black magic lol.

[bigredone]

Holy shit!! Winter is not getting the blame!! are you effing kidding me?!! He's the ONLY one getting blame! Let's talk a bit about how bad Eckersley has been for once!

OK fine, he had a bad game. Explain the rest?

[Yohan]

The Good
-Avila: Best game for TFC by far. Looked dangerous dribbling 1v1. Won a penalty. Buried a magnificent individual effort. Could have had another goal.
-Ryan Johnson: Another snakebitten game with a bit of rotten luck and one helluva reflex save from Rimando to take him off the score sheet. Still got an assist on Avila's goal
-Doneil Henry: confidence grows for this kid. And TFC scored a goal off a set piece!
-Winter's offensive tactics: going forward TFC looked good, especially with good choices being made to push the ball up the front. Not many stupid long balls into a set defence, but the longballs sought to exploit gaps in RSL defence in transition. A lot of decent off the ball movements. RSL was clearly scrambling a lot, and first time they conceded two goals at Rio Tinto. Considering how shitty TFC usually does at Rio Tinto, this is progress.

The Bad
-Torsten Frings: I don't think he's quite 100% because he didn't look sharp at all. Missing a PK doesn't help.
-TFC's set piece defence: just can't seem to get the marking right and RSL was dangerous pretty much every set piece. Criminal leaving 4 RSL players unmarked for their first goal from the corner.

The Ugly
-Adrian Cann: if people were hard on Harden for sucking, Cann probably had worst game from TFC CB so far this year. Constantly lost his marker and looked lost.
-Giving up the stoppage goal: if there was a dagger to crush whatever fight was left in the team....

[Roogsy]

I am watching Novara v Juve, and Novara are clearly way bellow Juve in tallent, and they are lossing, but when you watch them you understand that it is not the manager, they are well organized and play smart, it is just that in one on one Juve is better, and when mistakes are made Juve capializes.

My point is that in football it is easy to know when the players are just not good enough, and when they are not organized, tacticaly sound so forth, meaning the manager is just not getting them to the place they sould be. I agree we have improved under Winter in certain ways, but we have not improved enough.

This.

This roster is better than the record shows. Blaming luck is a lazy excuse that leaves people responsible off the hook.

[v00d00daddy]

That's just not true.

Far too simplistic to look at it this way. Sometimes the team that plays better on the day comes out with no points. It happens in hockey and it happens in football.

It's quite common.

[bigredone]

^ I'm blaming everyone and black magic lol.

Fair as can be!

[ExiledRed]

^ I'm blaming everyone and black magic lol.

May I ask, what is the condition for failure? At what point do you have enough evidence that this coach is not competent?

There must be a fail condition, what is it?

[v00d00daddy]

You're not blaming him. You're blaming everything from the players to black magic.

You're blaming Winter for last nights loss without giving any reasons.

Let's hear it. Why was last nights game winters fault?

Because the blame for Eckersely has been clearly explained.

[bigredone]

When threads say so!


no love between coach, players and fans?!?

[cmonyoureds]

This is going to be a horrible week for TFC. Not only do they have a game against an expansion team that beat them down (mind you without our best player) earlier this month, but on Saturday they face DCU with both DeRo and Santos doing really well for their team.

I hope DeRo or Santos don't add fuel to the fire already happening here - media will sure ask about their stay here at TFC again.

I hope they do add fuel to the fire. I'm all for a bigger hotter fire lit under FO assess.

[bigredoneNEE]

May I ask, what is the condition for failure? At what point do you have enough evidence that this coach is not competent?

There must be a fail condition, what is it?
I have to ask the same question. The Winter apologists are saying that we have to give him until the end of the season, as it's a three year project. My other questions on that are what does that do to the morale of this team when we finish dead last and only manage to win 5 or 6 games this season? What does that do to the fan base in Toronto? What about season ticket renewals for next year? Do we give him until the end the season, finish last, fire him then and bring in someone next January?

0-7 is 0-7, this team has not put together a solid 90 minutes this season. Playing well in parts of a game is pointless if you finish behind on the scoreboard.

[bigredoneNEE]

You're blaming Winter for last nights loss without giving any reasons.

Let's hear it. Why was last nights game winters fault?

Because the blame for Eckersely has been clearly explained.
Winter's team selection's, and formation's have been at fault all season. Time and again he's putting square pegs into round holes, this is why we're seeing so many individual mistakes.

It's not a crazy coincidence.

[Canary10]

May I ask, what is the condition for failure? At what point do you have enough evidence that this coach is not competent?

There must be a fail condition, what is it?

We're at that point. You'd have to be an idiot to say that 7 losses in a row isn't the breaking point. Having said that, I don't think we've played badly. In fact, I'd say we've played better than most of what I've seen at BMO over the years. That's why I am entertaining this virgin sacrifice idea.There's more at work here. The black arts are involved I'm sure.

[Beach_Red]

Not many. Not enough to make too many stick out. 4-1 over KC about three seasons ago. The first win over Chicago. Other than that, most of our points for five straight seasons came from scrapping out games in which we were decidedly second best. There were significant chunks of tonight's game where we looked better offensively than they did. But we lack heart and just enough intelligence to stay in games. That's not necessarily a technical fault in any respect, ergo the style is more enjoyable. It still means we might have a manager who can't motivate and be lacking a decent enough central defence to win many games this year. But it doesn't change that the style is more enjoyable to watch.

This may be it - the choice between heart and skill. For me, personally, I find it more enjoyable to watch less skilled players with heart. You may disagree, so be it.

But this is MLS, the higher skilled players will be lost to higher-paying leagues so the best we'll able to do is heart.

The biggest problem I have with the current regime is their failure to accept that this league has different roster rules from other leagues (salary cap, quoatas) that require a different approach. Well, that and their complete lack of taking any responsibility for the play, which will gut the heart out of a team every time.

[ExiledRed]

You're blaming Winter for last nights loss without giving any reasons.

Let's hear it. Why was last nights game winters fault?

Because the blame for Eckersely has been clearly explained.

Winter HAS to assume full responsibility for this team at this point or he is not the coach. Its his team, his system, his unaddressed defence, his demoralised players and his watch.

You cannot look at every individual game as if all the ones that came before it are irrelevant to the equation, nor can you pretend that the coach has no influence over the games.

You're asking me why the coach is to blame for going to Salt-Lake with a 0-6 record and having to fight like bastards for a POINT?

[117]

The worst part of last night's game, hands down, was the color commentator on TV. I felt embarrassed for him for two hours.

[Canary10]

Winter will take the heat, as he should as manager. But a lot of other needed conversations will go unspoken. Eckersley for one. He's been awful this year. He's an absolutely brainless player. I don't care about "heart" when he makes mistakes time and again. We got him and Plata because the fans demanded it. Even though the details are now starting to come out that these deals have financially killed us under the cap. On this I agree with Roogsy, the fans get what they deserve.

[ExiledRed]

We're at that point. You'd have to be an idiot to say that 7 losses in a row isn't the breaking point.

You said this, not I.

I would contest that you dont necessarily have to be an idiot, you may have different priorities such as a future where we are feeding the national team with 4-3-3 players from the academy and other things that compensate for the CSA lack of interest.

[Canary10]

You said this, not I.

I would contest that you dont necessarily have to be an idiot, you may have different priorities such as a future where we are feeding the national team with 4-3-3 players from the academy and other things that compensate for the CSA lack of interest.

Are you being the reasonable one all of a sudden?

[tfcleeds]

We're at that point. You'd have to be an idiot to say that 7 losses in a row isn't the breaking point. Having said that, I don't think we've played badly. In fact, I'd say we've played better than most of what I've seen at BMO over the years. That's why I am entertaining this virgin sacrifice idea.There's more at work here. The black arts are involved I'm sure.

Of course as a Toronto sports fan, it's tempting to think there may be darker forces at work here. At least, that's what I keep telling myself. Perhaps Bill Archer is twisting a knife in a TFC doll as we speak...;)

[ExiledRed]

Winter will take the heat, as he should as manager. But a lot of other needed conversations will go unspoken. Eckersley for one. He's been awful this year. He's an absolutely brainless player. I don't care about "heart" when he makes mistakes time and again. We got him and Plata because the fans demanded it. Even though the details are now starting to come out that these deals have financially killed us under the cap. On this I agree with Roogsy, the fans get what they deserve.

You see making Eckersley the next scapegoat in this round of deflection, is going to be a losing cause. We all know Eckersley isn't brilliant, but as far as MLS players go, he would fit into any team in this league. We dont have enough players like him, and to be honest, it looks like he's lost faith in the coach and will be the next to go if Winter doesnt, which is a shame.

[bigredone]

Sun Tzu would have a nasty (but probably effective) suggestion for Winter. Read the story of the concubines.

[ManUtd4ever]

This is going to be a horrible week for TFC. Not only do they have a game against an expansion team that beat them down (mind you without our best player) earlier this month, but on Saturday they face DCU with both DeRo and Santos doing really well for their team.

I hope DeRo or Santos don't add fuel to the fire already happening here - media will sure ask about their stay here at TFC again.

DeRo and Santos are going to torch us in the upcoming back to back set. It might as well as be scripted at this point. I don't foresee Winter lasting beyond that series.

[ExiledRed]

Are you being the reasonable one all of a sudden?

No Im pointing out that people may have their priorities wrong. This team isnt supposed to fill in for the CSA, its supposed to justify its ticket prices.

[InDa_110]

this very successful not an empty seat in the house business has been run into the ground.




Of course as a Toronto sports fan, it's tempting to think there may be darker forces at work here. At least, that's what I keep telling myself. Perhaps Bill Archer is twisting a knife in a TFC doll as we speak...;)

[Canary10]

You see making Eckersley the next scapegoat in this round of deflection, is going to be a losing cause. We all know Eckersley isn't brilliant, but as far as MLS players go, he would fit into any team in this league. We dont have enough players like him, and to be honest, it looks like he's lost faith in the coach and will be the next to go if Winter doesnt, which is a shame.

Last night I sat and watched while he sat and watched a player right on the six yard box go completely unmarked and have a free header. We were lucky it got called offside. The fact that he didn't make even an inkling of a move to cover him tells me a lot. You want to have the conversations you want to have, but Winter isn't the only conversation of what's wrong.

[Canary10]

No Im pointing out that people may have their priorities wrong. This team isnt supposed to fill in for the CSA, its supposed to justify its ticket prices.

Well TFC have certainly placed a lot of emphasis on local players. Neither Vancouver nor Montreal have done that. Maybe TFC are shouldering too big a load there.

[ExiledRed]

Last night I sat and watched while he sat and watched a player right on the six yard box go completely unmarked and have a free header. We were lucky it got called offside. The fact that he didn't make even an inkling of a move to cover him tells me a lot. You want to have the conversations you want to have, but Winter isn't the only conversation of what's wrong.

From my angle that disallowed goal was all on Cann.

Regardless you cannot point to one mistake by one player and say 'that piece of shit has to go' as if he is the root cause of this 0-7 record.

meanwhile on the sidelines, the bumbling coach that makes error after error is considered the saviour of canadian soccer.

[v00d00daddy]

Winter's team selection's, and formation's have been at fault all season. Time and again he's putting square pegs into round holes, this is why we're seeing so many individual mistakes.

It's not a crazy coincidence.

Nobody is absolving Winter for his mistakes for the whole season.

But I asked how yesterday's loss was Winters fault.

Can you answer that other than using generalisations from the whole season?

[Beach_Red]

Last night I sat and watched while he sat and watched a player right on the six yard box go completely unmarked and have a free header. We were lucky it got called offside. The fact that he didn't make even an inkling of a move to cover him tells me a lot. You want to have the conversations you want to have, but Winter isn't the only conversation of what's wrong.

But every team in MLS make those mistakes in every game. To be successful in MLS you have to be able to win despite mistakes because you can't eliminate the mistakes or the players who make them. You'll just get new players who make different mistakes. That's the level of this league, that's just the reality with a salary cap and domestic quoatas. So, you have to deal with it.

It's not about blame, it's about responsibility. The management of this team take "the heat" but never claim rssponsibility.

[Greatest Ripoff]

No Im pointing out that people may have their priorities wrong. This team isnt supposed to fill in for the CSA, its supposed to justify its ticket prices.

No, but when the CSA gave Toronto sanctioning to play in an American league it was with the understanding that it was to further the development of footballers in Canada. That is why there is a Canadian quota.

[v00d00daddy]

Winter HAS to assume full responsibility for this team at this point or he is not the coach. Its his team, his system, his unaddressed defence, his demoralised players and his watch.

You cannot look at every individual game as if all the ones that came before it are irrelevant to the equation, nor can you pretend that the coach has no influence over the games.

You're asking me why the coach is to blame for going to Salt-Lake with a 0-6 record and having to fight like bastards for a POINT?

No...I'm asking you why the failure of getting a point (or 3) yesterday, away at RSL, was Winters fault.

What did Winter do (or not do) that led to the team losing 3-2?

I'm genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on the matter

[Roogsy]

That's just not true.

Far too simplistic to look at it this way. Sometimes the team that plays better on the day comes out with no points. It happens in hockey and it happens in football.

It's quite common.

Sure once, twice maybe. Three times in historically bad cases of bad luck.

0-7 is not bad luck. It's a systemic issue.

There is no shame losing to RSL. They're a quality side. I blame Winter for putting us in a position that an understandable loss in RSL augments a record of ineptitude overall.

[Greatest Ripoff]

meanwhile on the sidelines, the bumbling coach that makes error after error is considered the saviour of canadian soccer.

What does Winter has to do with Canadian soccer and who said he was the savior of it? Also, what is with all of the hate for Canadian soccer? No love for the country you live in?

[Canary10]

"From my angle that disallowed goal was all on Cann.

Regardless you cannot point to one mistake by one player and say 'that piece of shit has to go' as if he is the root cause of this 0-7 record.

meanwhile on the sidelines, the bumbling coach that makes error after error is considered the saviour of canadian soccer. "

I'm not saying keep him. I don't know why you have that premise. I think he's fundamenatlly right about what he's trying to do, but something is clearly missing in execution.

I play the game. I happen to think that players have a role and responsibility. Fans like Eckersley because he tries hard. That's not fucking good enough. I would show you the exact clip if I could. He fucks up a lot. If we're going to talk about the team, let's have an adult conversation about all that is wrong including the the taboos. Eckersley being shit is one of those. People would rather talk about Harden, who hasn't made nearly the number of mistakes Eckersley has.

Mariner is another we should be talking about. He's gone quiet during this losing streak. He's part of management. His player acquisition has been spotty at best. He should be under the gun too.

[Beach_Red]

Nobody is absolving Winter for his mistakes for the whole season.

But I asked how yesterday's loss was Winters fault.

Can you answer that other than using generalisations from the whole season?

Taken out of context, yesterday's loss isn't very imprtant. At the beginning of the season probably no one would have expected more than a draw away to RSL, and a late goal loss would have been okay. But the loss that makes the record 0-7 isn't just any loss.

I don't get the feeling the way this team is currently run it will ever be able to overcome its shortcomings to win very much in this league. Sure, the team is getting better but not much in relation to the opposition which usually doesn't mind winning ugly.

[ExiledRed]

No...I'm asking you why the failure of getting a point (or 3) yesterday, away at RSL, was Winters fault.

What did Winter do (or not do) that led to the team losing 3-2?

I'm genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on the matter

Listen, if Winter cannot be blamed for the individual errors of his players that lead to a 3-2 loss he cannot be credited when any one of his players shows a flash of inspiration and scores a goal, or makes an attractive pass.

If we'd won, could I come on here and say that had nothing to do with Winter, it was the players?

[ExiledRed]

What does Winter has to do with Canadian soccer and who said he was the savior of it? Also, what is with all of the hate for Canadian soccer? No love for the country you live in?

Where are you getting 'hate' for canada or canadian soccer? Im equally passionate that Liverpool shouldnt be nurturing its players for the national team either.

Using material like this is dangerous stuff, you're practically inciting the board to turn on me as some kind of ungrateful immigrant. Be careful.

[Beach_Red]

Listen, if Winter cannot be blamed for the individual errors of his players that lead to a 3-2 loss he cannot be credited when any one of his players shows a flash of inspiration and scores a goal, or makes an attractive pass.

If we'd won, could I come on here and say that had nothing to do with Winter, it was the players?

Under these circumstances, yes, you could say that. In fact, you could say that the CCL success was mostly Frings.

What we're looking for here is a coach who can get wins with these players, a coach who can design a game plan specific to the opposition we're facing that these players can carry out and win with. What we've got is a guy who doesn't seem to know anything about the teams we face and plays the same no matter who it is. And this team is very far from being able to dictate the play.

It's not about blame, it's about responsibility. I don't care if Winter is to blame, I just want him to take responsibility.

[ExiledRed]

Under these circumstances, yes, you could say that. In fact, you could say that the CCL success was mostly Frings.

What we're looking for here is a coach who can get wins with these players, a coach who can design a game plan specific to the opposition we're facing that these players can carry out and win with. What we've got is a guy who doesn't seem to know anything about the teams we face and plays the same no matter who it is. And this team is very far from being able to dictate the play.

It's not about blame, it's about responsibility. I don't care if Winter is to blame, I just want him to take responsibility.

I just want him to take the next plane out of here to be honest.

[Beach_Red]

I just want him to take the next plane out of here to be honest.

Yeah, but you're just an ungrate-- sorry, going for the joke there, maybe it's too early... ;)

[Canary10]

"What we're looking for here is a coach who can get wins with these players, a coach who can design a game plan specific to the opposition we're facing that these players can carry out and win with. What we've got is a guy who doesn't seem to know anything about the teams we face and plays the same no matter who it is. And this team is very far from being able to dictate the play."

I'm sorry, but to say he doesn't plan and set out a game plan for each opponent is categorically untrue. He's well prepared. Maybe to a fault to be honest. He tends to tinker too much based on who they're playing.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Where are you getting 'hate' for canada or canadian soccer? Im equally passionate that Liverpool shouldnt be nurturing its players for the national team either.

Using material like this is dangerous stuff, you're practically inciting the board to turn on me as some kind of ungrateful immigrant. Be careful.

It has nothing to do with you being an immigrant, you had just made a couple of post putting down Canadian Soccer and saying that Toronto shouldn't be looked to to further it. Toronto is part of the pyramid of Canadian soccer with the National Team at the top. That is why the CSA allowed Toronto to join the MLS.

And I wanted to know what the connection was with Winter and Canadian soccer and who has called him the savior of Canadian soccer.

[ExiledRed]

I pay taxes and I buy tickets for TFC. Why do I have to fund the CSA twice?

The TFC tickets are meant to pay for a team that I can go and support and will activley compete for success in the league. Not the CMNT. Thats what the OSA/CSA government funding is for. I am not appreciating that people who would rather TFC trained kids for the national team at the expense of its first teams results, think this should happen at the expense of my dollar.

[Beach_Red]

"What we're looking for here is a coach who can get wins with these players, a coach who can design a game plan specific to the opposition we're facing that these players can carry out and win with. What we've got is a guy who doesn't seem to know anything about the teams we face and plays the same no matter who it is. And this team is very far from being able to dictate the play."

I'm sorry, but to say he doesn't plan and set out a game plan for each opponent is categorically untrue. He's well prepared. Maybe to a fault to be honest. He tends to tinker too much based on who they're playing.

Okay, it was just wishful thinking. If he's prepared and this is the best he can do, it's worse than I thought. We watch every team in MLS exploit every weakness in TFC, we watch them find the weakest, slowest defender and repeatedly attack. We watched Chicago wcore thirty seconds into a game because they knew a slow defender (playing out of position) was coming back after a long layoff and the team would be building from the back through him. But we never see TFC going after the weaknesses in other teams. Maybe they're trying to, maybe they've been given the game plan and fifty games (and huge roster changes) later they're still not doing it.

How long do we stay the course?

[Canary10]

I pay taxes and I buy tickets for TFC. Why do I have to fund the CSA twice?

The TFC tickets are meant to pay for a team that I can go and support and will activley compete for success in the league. Not the CMNT. Thats what the OSA/CSA government funding is for. I am not appreciating that people who would rather TFC trained kids for the national team at the expense of its first teams results, think this should happen at the expense of my dollar.

I think you've hit on an interesting point in all this.TFC have committed to developing local players. Vancouver and Montreal aren't doing this. Should we be doing this?

[ExiledRed]

I think you've hit on an interesting point in all this.TFC have committed to developing local players. Vancouver and Montreal aren't doing this. Should we be doing this?

Sure we should, but it cant come at the expense of the first teams performances. I dont like the assumption that this team is an extension of the CSA and that MLSE should be using the profits from TFC to compensate for the CSA's failings.

[Beach_Red]

I think you've hit on an interesting point in all this.TFC have committed to developing local players. Vancouver and Montreal aren't doing this. Should we be doing this?

No, the pro team shouldn't be involved with kids. Frankly, this whole concept of youth academies may work if they're part of a club, but in north America we have franchises. We may love the teams, but they're owned by people and operated on the same premise as Tim Hortons or McDonalds, they're business franchises. They move from city to city if attendance isn't good enough.

It's just not the right model.

[Canary10]

^ Interesting points, those last two. Definitely should be talked about.

[Flipityflu]

Last night I sat and watched while he sat and watched a player right on the six yard box go completely unmarked and have a free header. We were lucky it got called offside. The fact that he didn't make even an inkling of a move to cover him tells me a lot. You want to have the conversations you want to have, but Winter isn't the only conversation of what's wrong.

you may want to watch a replay on that. Ecks was watching the incoming man on the wing as a right back should. it is a central defenders job to mark players in the centre. it seemed to me that Ecks was calling Cann to mark him, and Cann didn't move.

[v00d00daddy]

I just want him to take the next plane out of here to be honest.

And there it is. You've proven my point. You are unable to attribute any blame on Winter for this loss.

Nobody has. It's all been "this loss is his fault because all the others were his fault"

And that's fine. But there is a whole other thread for keeping or scrapping Winter.

I'm here talking about yesterday's game and not in that thread because I've read that thread. I get people's frustrations with Winter. It's totally justified.

But if we wanna talk about why we lost yesterday this is the place for it. And you've not been able to add to that discussion.

[Roogsy]

Listen, if Winter cannot be blamed for the individual errors of his players that lead to a 3-2 loss he cannot be credited when any one of his players shows a flash of inspiration and scores a goal, or makes an attractive pass.

If we'd won, could I come on here and say that had nothing to do with Winter, it was the players?

Funny how when I credited late last season's "decent" form after a horrible start to the arrival of the DPs, the credit for such a startling change went to Winter. Now that we're struggling it's the players. It's pretty funny.

[ExiledRed]

It has nothing to do with you being an immigrant, you had just made a couple of post putting down Canadian Soccer and saying that Toronto shouldn't be looked to to further it. Toronto is part of the pyramid of Canadian soccer with the National Team at the top. That is why the CSA allowed Toronto to join the MLS.

And I wanted to know what the connection was with Winter and Canadian soccer and who has called him the savior of Canadian soccer.

For a start the question 'no love for the country you live in?' was loaded and absolutely directed toward the fact that Im an immigrant.

I have at no time put down Canada or Canadian Soccer. provide a quote.

I think Im safe and amongst many likeminded Canadians when I claim that the CSA is lining its own pockets, needs reform and is part of TFC's problem, regardless that it 'let' us have a team.

[ensco]

It's Winter's fault. Period. Because his team allowed 3 goals. You will almost never get points when you do that.

[Canary10]

you may want to watch a replay on that. Ecks was watching the incoming man on the wing as a right back should. it is a central defenders job to mark players in the centre. it seemed to me that Ecks was calling Cann to mark him, and Cann didn't move.


I don;t think it was on the goal that was waived off.

If you see a ball going to a player who is uncovered right in front of the six yard box and you can get to it, that's your first responsibility as a defender.

[v00d00daddy]

Sure once, twice maybe. Three times in historically bad cases of bad luck.

0-7 is not bad luck. It's a systemic issue.

There is no shame losing to RSL. They're a quality side. I blame Winter for putting us in a position that an understandable loss in RSL augments a record of ineptitude overall.

I agree with you. There is a problem here. And Winters choices are a huge part of it.

I'm just willing to see how it goes from here. And I'm not about to put all the blame on the coach.

He may have to go but it doesnt matter if Sir Alex himself is the next guy. Individual mistakes will still happen and still cost us points.

At some point a lot of our players will have to look in the mirror and say I fucked up and cost my team a goal, or caused a goal, or caused a loss.

It's too easy and simplistic to blame the coach. Yes...he may still have to go regardless...but if we're talking about the actual reasons why this team is sputtering so badly, all the reasons are fair game.

Also...I never mentioned luck. I agree with trane that you make your own luck. All I'm saying is that sometimes teams play well enough to earn a result but it doesn't happen.

[ExiledRed]

And there it is. You've proven my point. You are unable to attribute any blame on Winter for this loss.

Nobody has. It's all been "this loss is his fault because all the others were his fault"

Ive detailed several times why I think Winter was responsible for the loss, from unhappy players to a failing of his tactics. Your problem is that Im not answering a question that has been narrowed down and isolated from the main issue, in a particular way. I cannot separate the teams performance from the coach. Eckersley for instance... do we blame him for having a shitty game, or do we blame the coach because one of our better players is finally losing hope, looks demoralised and is starting to make mistakes?

[ExiledRed]

you may want to watch a replay on that. Ecks was watching the incoming man on the wing as a right back should. it is a central defenders job to mark players in the centre. it seemed to me that Ecks was calling Cann to mark him, and Cann didn't move.

Even the flipping Utah commentators saw it. It was Cann no question.

[Cashcleaner]

It's Winter's fault. Period. Because his team allowed 3 goals. You will almost never get points when you do that.

Needed to be highlighted.

Because the continual failure of the backline hasn't been simple individual mistakes here and there. It's been a systematic problem we've had since the start of the season with very few exceptions. When an entire component of the squad is constantly underperforming, you need to look beyond the individual players.

[v00d00daddy]

Okay, it was just wishful thinking. If he's prepared and this is the best he can do, it's worse than I thought. We watch every team in MLS exploit every weakness in TFC, we watch them find the weakest, slowest defender and repeatedly attack. We watched Chicago wcore thirty seconds into a game because they knew a slow defender (playing out of position) was coming back after a long layoff and the team would be building from the back through him. But we never see TFC going after the weaknesses in other teams. Maybe they're trying to, maybe they've been given the game plan and fifty games (and huge roster changes) later they're still not doing it.

How long do we stay the course?

I agree that teams key in on TFCs weaknesses and that can be on Winters shoulders but you're not really suggesting that it's winters fault that Frings gave Chicago a goal in the first minute of the game because he was coming back from injury and playing at cb are you?

Lol

I'm sure if you ask frings himself he'd wear that one.

That goal had zero to do with Winter. Or any other player/coach/manager.

[ExiledRed]

I don;t think it was on the goal that was waived off.

If you see a ball going to a player who is uncovered right in front of the six yard box and you can get to it, that's your first responsibility as a defender.

And then who'se covering the winger? You're blaming Eckersley for not doing two defenders jobs.

[Canary10]

^There was no winger. He was standing in space doing nothing.

[ManUtd4ever]

Individual player errors have been costly without a doubt, but in the grand scheme of things, that is a symptom of a flawed strategy.

TFC has looked impressive on the attack in the last few games, but the backline is consistently vulnerable against a strong counter attack. Opposing MLS teams have been able to exploit that weakness since last season, despite the upgrade in talent on the roster.

Player personnel is not the issue.

[ExiledRed]

I agree that teams key in on TFCs weaknesses and that can be on Winters shoulders but you're not really suggesting that it's winters fault that Frings gave Chicago a goal in the first minute of the game because he was coming back from injury and playing at cb are you?

Lol

I'm sure if you ask frings himself he'd wear that one.

That goal had zero to do with Winter. Or any other player/coach/manager.

No, hes pointing out that Chicago identified a weakness long before the match started and capitalised on a strategy designed to exploit it.

Winter doesnt seem to expect other teams to know that he is going to do the same thing every week, nor does he seem to know what theyre going to do.

Again, it was his fault. He's out of his depth and after all his talk about lack of quality over here, the other coaches are laughing at him right now, I promise you.

[ExiledRed]

^There was no winger. He was standing in space doing nothing.

He was exactly where he was supposed to be. Cann wasnt. But its still his fault? come on, Im not blaming Winter here, im blaming Cann.

[ExiledRed]

Individual player errors have been costly without a doubt, but in the grand scheme of things, that is a symptom of a flawed strategy.

TFC has looked impressive on the attack in the last few games, but the backline is consistently vulnerable against a strong counter attack. Opposing MLS teams have been able to exploit that weakness since last season, despite the upgrade in talent on the roster.

Player personnel is not the issue.

I would say that you can pick any area of improvement this team has displayed and counterbalance it with a decline in some other area tht is equally important.

Defence is worse than ever, and we still dont have a great finish or a strong midfield. We can pass the ball around our own half well though.

[Canary10]

I'll try to find it.

[Greatest Ripoff]

I have at no time put down Canada or Canadian Soccer. provide a quote.

"I dont like the assumption that this team is an extension of the CSA and that MLSE should be using the profits from TFC to compensate for the CSA's failings."

"meanwhile on the sidelines, the bumbling coach that makes error after error is considered the saviour of canadian soccer."

"Im pointing out that people may have their priorities wrong. This team isnt supposed to fill in for the CSA"

"I pay taxes and I buy tickets for TFC. Why do I have to fund the CSA twice?"

Maybe hate was too strong of a word but it sure isn't love for the CSA.

As I keep pointing out, Toronto has to be sanctioned by the CSA to play in an American league. Part of that sanctioning involves them being a part of soccer pyramid in Canada.

[Canary10]

"We can pass the ball around our own half well though."

Really? You're being generous.

[trane]

This has been discussed over and over again. Yes individuals made mistakes, but on every team in every league at every level makes mistakes, it is the maangers job to minimize such mistakes, and to put together a system/tactic game plan that mimimizes the effects of such mistakes, Winter has failed to do this, and hence we keep on lossing.

Seriously, game after game, after game, we drop points because of defensive mistakes, game after game after game, people defend winter, oh but it is this individual or that individual. Well winter has done nothing about it. It is winter that chooses the formation, it is winter that selects the player, it is winter that brought in the CBs we have to address this problem. It is simply not reasoanble to not longer balme Winter. His job is to address these problems and he has not. These are problems that plagued us before he came here and have plauge us all along.

[trane]

I think that we can pass the ball better as a team since winter came in and that in terms of offence we move better without the ball wich gives our players more passing options. But when you think about it, that is about all that has improbed. Now this is important but it is not enough.

[ExiledRed]

"I dont like the assumption that this team is an extension of the CSA and that MLSE should be using the profits from TFC to compensate for the CSA's failings."

"meanwhile on the sidelines, the bumbling coach that makes error after error is considered the saviour of canadian soccer."

"Im pointing out that people may have their priorities wrong. This team isnt supposed to fill in for the CSA"

"I pay taxes and I buy tickets for TFC. Why do I have to fund the CSA twice?"

Maybe hate was too strong of a word but it sure isn't love for the CSA.

As I keep pointing out, Toronto has to be sanctioned by the CSA to play in an American league. Part of that sanctioning involves them being a part of soccer pyramid in Canada.

You see here's my problem. I think the CSA is in desperate need for reform, and you are translating that as having anti-canadian sentiment.

I stand by every one of those comments, and the opinion is shared amongst many canadians.

The fact that TFC has to answer to a national football federation is a given, so do Vancouver, Montreal and Edmonton. It doesnt impact the argument at all. If the CSA prevented a viable business venture on a whimsy, MLSE would have a legal case against them. Tell me, what grounds would the CSA have had not to sanction TFC in MLS, when they have so far failed to provide a tier 1 league?

[bigredone]

The fire Wilson chant was effective, whether agreed with or not. A few games later an attempt at a "fire Burke" chant almost got going against the Islanders. :idea:



Sorry, wrong thread I suppose.

[jloome]

Sorry but last nights game had nothing to do with not motivating the back line. The back line made boneheaded plays that no coach in the world can "motivate" out. No amount of motivation is going to get Adrian Cann to put his head on a ball when he should (or even look at the fucking ball...lol). No amount of motivation was going to get Frings not to hit that penalty like a 6th grader.


I agree with most of what you're saying but you're missing the plot on motivation -- when a defender blows a coverage like that in the first six minutes, his head's not in the game yet. If his head's not in the game after six minutes of play, I start looking at the guy who prepared them.

Yes, all of this IS down to the players. But who picks them? Who prepares them? Every team makes mistakes, but not like ours. So either our coaching staff has assembled a lineup with too many incompetents in it, or they're not concentrating when they hit the pitch. Yes, that's on the players. But it's on the coach, as well.

[Richard]

Is there a status update on Kosic? Looked like he could have gotten concused, imagine the disaster if he got injured too.

[trane]

Bottom line for me, this is sad. I had hope that winter was the answer. Now we start over yet again. But better sooner then later.

[jloome]

This may be it - the choice between heart and skill. For me, personally, I find it more enjoyable to watch less skilled players with heart. You may disagree, so be it.

But this is MLS, the higher skilled players will be lost to higher-paying leagues so the best we'll able to do is heart.

The biggest problem I have with the current regime is their failure to accept that this league has different roster rules from other leagues (salary cap, quoatas) that require a different approach. Well, that and their complete lack of taking any responsibility for the play, which will gut the heart out of a team every time.

This is true. I think their biggest problem is that Winter and DeKlerk don't adjust much technically. The problem right now is that we don't have the players for this system. we might be able to get them and I'm not attacking the 4-3-3, which is very flexible. But we don't have them now; we can't play three in the middle, for example, if Terry Dunfield is one of our only options. We'd be better moving the wings back slightly, playing a 4-4-1-1, and having Frings and DeGuzman hold in front of the backline. The second striker can still play in the hole, and we can play with a target man above him, so our offensive tactics wouldn't really suffer. But it gives the fullbacks some relief on the wings to have them slightly withdrawn.

I dunno anymore. They have to try something.

[jloome]

I agree that teams key in on TFCs weaknesses and that can be on Winters shoulders but you're not really suggesting that it's winters fault that Frings gave Chicago a goal in the first minute of the game because he was coming back from injury and playing at cb are you?

Lol

Okay voodoo, you've just answered your own question. For crying out loud, OF COURSE IT WAS WINTER's FAULT. It was also Frings' fault, but it was Winter's fault to setup a team to build from the back through one player. That's asinine in a league full of workhorses. That is a direct, tactical mistake. If you look at the mlssoccer.com story last week on our tactics, you'll see that building from the back is costing us possession in our end at nearly DOUBLE the league average, and that we attempt more than twice as many passes on our own end as the league average.

So yes, Winter was to blame for that goal. You and Exiled are arguing at cross-purposes. You're both right. It IS the players' fault, because they're the one's f-ing up. But they're being put in a position where they are more likely to fail because of the tactical and personnel decisions of the coach.

[v00d00daddy]

Okay voodoo, you've just answered your own question. For crying out loud, OF COURSE IT WAS WINTER's FAULT. It was also Frings' fault, but it was Winter's fault to setup a team to build from the back through one player. That's asinine in a league full of workhorses. That is a direct, tactical mistake. If you look at the mlssoccer.com story last week on our tactics, you'll see that building from the back is costing us possession in our end at nearly DOUBLE the league average, and that we attempt more than twice as many passes on our own end as the league average.

So yes, Winter was to blame for that goal. You and Exiled are arguing at cross-purposes. You're both right. It IS the players' fault, because they're the one's f-ing up. But they're being put in a position where they are more likely to fail because of the tactical and personnel decisions of the coach.

I'm sorry but 1 minute into a game has nothing to do with workhorses and cumulative minutes if possession in ones half.

Frings is more than capable of handling that ball and dealing with it appropriately.

We could have been set up in any formation imaginable, with any pro players imaginable and he should have been able to deal with that situation.

It wasn't a case of workhorses bearing down on a tired player, out of position.

It was the first minute of the game. And it was a professional player shitting the bed. Brain cramp. It had nothing to do with tactics or the league in which we play.

Winter has shown, on lots of occasions, that his tactical decisions leave a lot to be desired. But this isn't one of them.

A player fucked up. Huge. It happens. I'm not suggesting that they bench Frings or that he's a bad player. I'm just attributing blame where it belongs on this one play.

If there is any play that blame can fall squarely and solely on one singular person...it's this one. With frings.

It could just have easily been Cann or Aceval or whoever. Players make mistakes. Sometimes they are mistakes that come from a coach putting a guy where he can't hack it (frings is more than capable of doing what he needed to do) or setting up in a formation that leads to more chances against than there should be.

But this just wasnt the case IMO.

In what world is it a coaches fault for putting Torsten fucking Frings (a guy who's played at the highest levels) in a position where he can fail when that position is in the centre of defence and the guy manages to fuck it up 30 seconds into a game? Frings made a horrible choice to hold on to the ball too long. It happens. There was nothing Winter could have done to predict or prevent that.

Frings fucked up and to try and blame Winter for every single thing that goes wrong screams of not being able to look at things objectively.

[v00d00daddy]

Sorry for the rant. I don't mean to get upset about this because, at the end of the day, it's not worth getting upset about.

I could have just said that I agree to disagree. lol

[T-boy]

Oh please.....the situation of the EPL is vastly different from MLS in player quality, availability within the roster of options and resources to get such a turn around done (Rednapp bought his turn around for example and the team is going down to the 3rd tier because of it).

And for every 1 of those quick turn around, there are still 3 to 4 others which did not turn it around so fast...........but of course nobody talks about Blackburn, QPR, Coventry, Chesterfield, Preston, Liverpool, Inter, Hereford, just to name a few.

And how many team can you name that have started their season 0-7 and kept their manager, who then went on to turn the team into a success? I bet you can't name one?

And why is the EPL, or any other league, any different from the MLS? The managers I named turned their team around without even signing a new player! Martin O'Neill didn't sign anybody, and yet made the same group of players that he inherited into a top half team! Di Matteo hasn't signed anybody either!

For all those people who want to keep Winter, I honestly challenge you to find an example of a manager who started a season 0-7, kept his job, and then turned the team around?

[Canary10]

And how many team can you name that have started their season 0-7 and kept their manager, who then went on to turn the team into a success? I bet you can't name one?

And why is the EPL, or any other league, any different from the MLS? The managers I named turned their team around without even signing a new player! Martin O'Neill didn't sign anybody, and yet made the same group of players that he inherited into a top half team! Di Matteo hasn't signed anybody either!

For all those people who want to keep Winter, I honestly challenge you to find an example of a manager who started a season 0-7, kept his job, and then turned the team around?

I'm not sure I could find you another manager that's gone 0-7 let alone one who's kept their job doing it.

[trane]

I'm sorry but 1 minute into a game has nothing to do with workhorses and cumulative minutes if possession in ones half.

Frings is more than capable of handling that ball and dealing with it appropriately.

We could have been set up in any formation imaginable, with any pro players imaginable and he should have been able to deal with that situation.

It wasn't a case of workhorses bearing down on a tired player, out of position.

It was the first minute of the game. And it was a professional player shitting the bed. Brain cramp. It had nothing to do with tactics or the league in which we play.

Winter has shown, on lots of occasions, that his tactical decisions leave a lot to be desired. But this isn't one of them.

A player fucked up. Huge. It happens. I'm not suggesting that they bench Frings or that he's a bad player. I'm just attributing blame where it belongs on this one play.

If there is any play that blame can fall squarely and solely on one singular person...it's this one. With frings.

It could just have easily been Cann or Aceval or whoever. Players make mistakes. Sometimes they are mistakes that come from a coach putting a guy where he can't hack it (frings is more than capable of doing what he needed to do) or setting up in a formation that leads to more chances against than there should be.

But this just wasnt the case IMO.

In what world is it a coaches fault for putting Torsten fucking Frings (a guy who's played at the highest levels) in a position where he can fail when that position is in the centre of defence and the guy manages to fuck it up 30 seconds into a game? Frings made a horrible choice to hold on to the ball too long. It happens. There was nothing Winter could have done to predict or prevent that.

Frings fucked up and to try and blame Winter for every single thing that goes wrong screams of not being able to look at things objectively.

Sorry, but you may have had a point if this was the first time that we dropped points because of similar issues but it is not. Winter made a good call in moving Frings back to help out our weak CBs but now people are focusing on him. Winter has done nothing to correct this and has certainly not address our continuing problem of not having adequate CBs. If the manager is not here to address such questions then what exactly is his function. Like it or not it is Winter's responsability, it is his players making the mistakes, while playing the system and tactics he has chosen. I am not sure why the loyalty to Winter by so many, but he has had a chance, firing him at this point would be justified.

[ag futbol]

And how many team can you name that have started their season 0-7 and kept their manager, who then went on to turn the team into a success? I bet you can't name one?

And why is the EPL, or any other league, any different from the MLS? The managers I named turned their team around without even signing a new player! Martin O'Neill didn't sign anybody, and yet made the same group of players that he inherited into a top half team! Di Matteo hasn't signed anybody either!

For all those people who want to keep Winter, I honestly challenge you to find an example of a manager who started a season 0-7, kept his job, and then turned the team around?
That sums it up quite nicely I think.

[Canary10]

Sorry, but you may have had a point if this was the first time that we dropped points because of similar issues but it is not. Winter made a good call in moving Frings back to help out our weak CBs but now people are focusing on him. Winter has done nothing to correct this and has certainly not address our continuing problem of not having adequate CBs. If the manager is not here to address such questions then what exactly is his function. Like it or not it is Winter's responsability, it is his players making the mistakes, while playing the system and tactics he has chosen. I am not sure why the loyalty to Winter by so many, but he has had a chance, firing him at this point would be justified.

Player acquisition is Mariner's job. He should be fired as well.

[Roogsy]

Player acquisition is Mariner's job. He should be fired as well.

Are you sure about that? I had asked this before, but what exactly is Mariner's job and who answers to who?

Winter is getting roasted for his player selections, his tactics and his failure to motivate his players and get their heads in the game to reduce mental errors.

If Mariner's job is to bring in players for Winter to use, then yes let's have at him. But is it really his role? This dubious structure at TFC has a lot of unanswered questions.

[ExiledRed]

Player acquisition is Mariner's job. He should be fired as well.

Winter is mismanaging these players. They're not that bad, several of the ones Winter axed were in fact pretty good.

Whatever Mariners role, Winter keeps throwing babies out with the bathwater and then throwing out the tub too.

[trane]

^ What do you think Roogsy the game against Montreal must be Winter his last chance to show something, even for our FO it has to be enough?

[Canary10]

Are you sure about that? I had asked this before, but what exactly is Mariner's job and who answers to who?

Winter is getting roasted for his player selections, his tactics and his failure to motivate his players and get their heads in the game to reduce mental errors.

If Mariner's job is to bring in players for Winter to use, then yes let's have at him. But is it really his role? This dubious structure at TFC has a lot of unanswered questions.

Everyone says it's his role, but true, who knows really. Yeah, this structure is a mess.

[trane]

Winter is mismanaging these players. They're not that bad, several of the ones Winter axed were in fact pretty good.

Whatever Mariners role, Winter keeps throwing babies out with the bathwater and then throwing out the tub too.

I have to agree other then the problems at CB, our tallent is not that bad. Certainly good enough to be in the playoff hunt.

[Canary10]

Winter is mismanaging these players. They're not that bad, several of the ones Winter axed were in fact pretty good.

Whatever Mariners role, Winter keeps throwing babies out with the bathwater and then throwing out the tub too.

Trane gave you the argument why Mariner should go. He hasn't solved the one pressing issue we all know we've had for ages. (Nothwithstanding what Roogsy said about whether that's his actual job).

[ExiledRed]

This dubious structure at TFC has a lot of unanswered questions.

Its ridiculous, you cant blame winter because Mariner acquires players, nor can you blame him because he is following Klinsmanns system which is being implemented on the pitch by DeKlerk, and you cant blame him for being unable to turn around results quickly because thats the fault of the previous managers who left him with a poor team to start with.

Anything that Ive missed can be blamed on Tom Anselmi.

What does Winter do again?

[ExiledRed]

Trane gave you the argument why Mariner should go. He hasn't solved the one pressing issue we all know we've had for ages. (Nothwithstanding what Roogsy said about whether that's his actual job).

There is no way Mariner should go before Winter. I dont care if they both go, provided Mariner is in some way culpable and the new coach doesnt have a use for him.

[69Chevy396]

Would be interesting to research the futility of different sports franchises. I know in the NFL Tampa Bay started out 0-26 until they won a game in their second season - but even they made the playoffs in their fifth season.

TFC would be a last place club in any league.

[Roogsy]

Winter is mismanaging these players. They're not that bad, several of the ones Winter axed were in fact pretty good.

Whatever Mariners role, Winter keeps throwing babies out with the bathwater and then throwing out the tub too.

Pretty much yeah.

Even IF we can ascertain that Mariner's role is to bring in players, that still leaves the question as to why the current crop of players are not good enough? This is a $6million payroll for heaven's sakes! I can only assume that whatever players were brought in were done so at the very least with the approval of Winter, if not selected outright by him. Is the only way Winter can get us a good team is if he is allowed to pick and choose a "dream team" of players? Winter needs to do another round of player turnover after a league record of player turnover last year? Isn't stability at the PLAYER level just as, if not more important than, stability at the coaching level?

I said it before, I will say it again. Good coaches make do with what they have. When Arena was without Becks and Donovan, his team STILL gutted out draws on the road. Before Henry and Marquez arrived in NY, Backe's team had a great winning percentage. Obviously Winter does not have the ability to do that, so how can anyone make a case that he is a good coach?

Winter has all the pieces already here unlike the coaches above and yet can't get results? This is no longer a player acquisition issue. This is a player management issue. Are these players being managed well enough to win? I think you know what my answer is to that.

[Canary10]

There is no way Mariner should go before Winter. I dont care if they both go, provided Mariner is in some way culpable and the new coach doesnt have a use for him.

That's what I'm saying. Get rid of them all.

[ag futbol]

Player acquisition is Mariner's job. He should be fired as well.
If that's actually the case: scorch the earth.

But if it's a case of good advise being ignored, he should be safe. No way for us to tell from the outside.

[Canary10]

We still have no decent CBs. WHoever is responsbile for that should go.

[Flipityflu]

There is no way Mariner should go before Winter. I dont care if they both go, provided Mariner is in some way culpable and the new coach doesnt have a use for him.

since i'd like to see Steve Nicol get the job, the fact that he and Mariner have worked together before could be possitive. i honestly don't know what their relationship is like though.

[BHTC Mike]

Its like saying if you're not a christian, you must worship the devil.
I have it on good authority that the Devil is a notorious long ball merchant.

[ExiledRed]

Seriously though, this is a coach that couldnt find a use for Maicon Santos, so got rid of him. What a player, as far as this league goes, too.

Creative, individual players that could win some games all by themselves, were the first thing that coach eliminated, while keeping unimaginative grinders like Harden and Dunfield.

[Island Man]

Just me who thinks Kocic was really bad last night? Terrible for the 1st goal, could have done better for the 3rd. Didn't organise his defence at all.

[ExiledRed]

Just me who thinks Kocic was really bad last night? Terrible for the 1st goal, could have done better for the 3rd. Didn't organise his defence at all.

frustrated, demoralised players, rarely play well.

[69Chevy396]

Interesting in the week the Barca manager resigns, in part because he felt responsible for the clubs recent failures. Barca 2012 one of the greatest teams ever assembled. Too bad Winter doesn't have the courage to stand up and say the same thing: "I am simply not adequate enough to coach this team any longer". Tell me, just how difficult is it for this dimwit to realize playing a three man defense in high altitude is going to bite your ass? He can't get anything right. I cannot recall one mls contest where he was the better strategist.

[Strans]

g:D haha +1
I have it on good authority that the Devil is a notorious long ball merchant.

[narduch]

Interesting in the week the Barca manager resigns, in part because he felt responsible for the clubs recent failures. Barca 2012 one of the greatest teams ever assembled. Too bad Winter doesn't have the courage to stand up and say the same thing: "I am simply not adequate enough to coach this team any longer". Tell me, just how difficult is it for this dimwit to realize playing a three man defense in high altitude is going to bite your ass? He can't get anything right. I cannot recall one mls contest where he was the better strategist.

That's really not fair comparison though. Guardiola will easily get a job again.

Aron Winter won't be so lucky. If he fails at TFC he is going to find it awfully difficult to find work again as a coach, heck he was unemployed for 18 months prior to taking the TFC job. Look at what happened to Gullit after he left LA, its not pretty. Winter is probably playing chicken with MLSE so that he can at least get paid the full 3 years of his contract.

[Greatest Ripoff]

If the CSA prevented a viable business venture on a whimsy, MLSE would have a legal case against them.

What exactly do you mean by this? What 'whimsy' are you talking about?


Tell me, what grounds would the CSA have had not to sanction TFC in MLS, when they have so far failed to provide a tier 1 league?

If Toronto can't meet the CSA requirements as a professional team, they why wouldn't the CSA be able to removed the sanctioning from Toronto? Seems pretty cut and dry, you have to meet certain standards to be sanctioned. But where is this even coming from? Why are you even talking about the CSA not sanctioning Toronto? Are you upset that Toronto has a Canadian quota and is expected to develop Canadian players?

The CSA 100% needs reformed but setting standards for their professional clubs isn't one of their problem. And with a country the size of Canada, with the population so spread out and profession soccer not being a main stream sport you can't really blame for CSA for their not being a division one league in Canada.


The reason I brought this all up in the first place it because, "I dont like the assumption that this team is an extension of the CSA and that MLSE should be using the profits from TFC to compensate for the CSA's failings." But Toronto is basically an extension of the CSA. But what I don't know is, how is CSA using MLSE profits? Is MLSE cutting a cheque to the CSA? And what failings are you talking about? Player development? Don't most footballers all over the world get developed by professional clubs?

"meanwhile on the sidelines, the bumbling coach that makes error after error is considered the saviour of canadian soccer."

This also bothered me because I really don't know where this is coming from? Where has any supporter the CMNT said the Winter is saviour of Canadian soccer or has said he should stay at Toronto?

[Yohan]

Seriously though, this is a coach that couldnt find a use for Maicon Santos, so got rid of him. What a player, as far as this league goes, too.

Creative, individual players that could win some games all by themselves, were the first thing that coach eliminated, while keeping unimaginative grinders like Harden and Dunfield.Maicon Santos is about one dimensional player as it gets. He's a poacher striker who can only play in very few formations, and inconsistent as hell. It's not like Mariner/Winter gave away Santos for free

[narduch]

I'm not sure why the CSA is even being discussed. They are an irrelevant after thought in the context of the professional game in Canada.

Besides, they have shown that with the current quota for Canadians on Canadian MLS teams they aren't even interested in defending whats good for the betterment of the game in this country. The clubs are dictating the rules to the CSA and they don't seem interesting in pulling any weight.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Seriously though, this is a coach that couldnt find a use for Maicon Santos, so got rid of him. What a player, as far as this league goes, too.

Creative, individual players that could win some games all by themselves, were the first thing that coach eliminated, while keeping unimaginative grinders like Harden and Dunfield.

You mean this Maicon Santos?


008
Ironi Kiryat Shomna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapoel_Ironi_Kiryat_Shmona_F.C.)
1
(0)


2008
Bnei Sakhnin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnei_Sakhnin_F.C.)
10
(0)


2008–2010
Bonsucesso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonsucesso_Futebol_Clube)




2009–2010
→ Chivas USA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.D._Chivas_USA) (loan)
19
(2)


2010–2011
Toronto FC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC)
32
(10)


2011
FC Dallas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Dallas)
11
(2)


2012–
D.C. United (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._United)
9
(6)






I have no problems with Winter going only if they all go from the top to bottom. But to say because he trade Maicon Sontos to Dallas for Eric Avila as reason for dismissal is a very unbalanced view. And if Santos is such a grate loss, what does it say about Schellas Hyndman who let him go on free?

[ag futbol]

Maicon Santos is about one dimensional player as it gets. He's a poacher striker who can only play in very few formations, and inconsistent as hell. It's not like Mariner/Winter gave away Santos for free
We compounded our own problems with that one. I think his performance this year is above what would realistically be expected, but he is a very serviceable MLS player who fills needs and is available at a good price. Limitations will always a part of the players you have in a league with a small payroll. All said and done, he has limitations a coach should be able to work with and turn into production ...

We now resort to complaining about what happens when Koevermans is out of the lineup when we had a player who filled that need but gave him away. DCU played a 4-3-3 last night BTW

[ag futbol]

I have no problems with Winter going only if they all go from the top to bottom. But to say because he trade Maicon Sontos to Dallas for Eric Avila as reason for dismissal is a very unbalanced view. And if Santos is such a grate loss, what does it say about Schellas Hyndman who let him go on free?
All said and done, other teams have got more production out of Maicon Santos than we've got out of Eric Avila.

[spe18]

Pretty much yeah.

Even IF we can ascertain that Mariner's role is to bring in players, that still leaves the question as to why the current crop of players are not good enough? This is a $6million payroll for heaven's sakes! I can only assume that whatever players were brought in were done so at the very least with the approval of Winter, if not selected outright by him. Is the only way Winter can get us a good team is if he is allowed to pick and choose a "dream team" of players?

Yes, but $2 million of that is because of a signing that was not made by this current administration!

[bones]

Sorry to interrupt this "Winter's shit, no he's THE shit" circle jurk.

Another game where points were there for the taking but we just weren't good enough in the end to get them. Much like a few games this year where we looked the better team to only, hit the cross bar, hit the post, make a goalie "save of the week" guy, or miss the net on a sitter... The facts are that yes we are 0-7 in the league. We played out of our EFFING minds in the CCL and had our hopes up really high but we're no where near as bad as our league record says we are. Ok back to the numbers, so we've go zero points so far. And we're 3 wins away from 4th place in our division with ONLY 27 games to play (Geeze I can't even figure out our Magic number with that many left).

I miss the days where we gave players ratings and talked about good and bad plays they made in the post game thread.

Bones...

[Jack]

Dammit, I typed up a long response and it disappeared.

Bottom line is:

we are playing better football than before BUT
MLS is a better league than even 5 years ago (I see a fair bit of interest in the league from those who previously scoffed at it because they are seeing an interesting and entertaining league)
We aren't advancing enough to keep up with the league, never mind improve our standing in said league.

Winter needs to go. Our guys need a new source of inspiration. Errors are happening, but there is no focus and there is no inspiration from the man on the touch line.

The Montreal game is, for me, a moot point. Seeing guys like Cann and Ecks out to lunch means this guy can't get them ready for games.

[narduch]

^ What do you think Roogsy the game against Montreal must be Winter his last chance to show something, even for our FO it has to be enough?

The FO probably won't be too happy if it has to refund all its season seat holders for the TBD May 23rd game.

[tfc2008]

That's really not fair comparison though. Guardiola will easily get a job again.

Aron Winter won't be so lucky. If he fails at TFC he is going to find it awfully difficult to find work again as a coach, heck he was unemployed for 18 months prior to taking the TFC job. Look at what happened to Gullit after he left LA, its not pretty. Winter is probably playing chicken with MLSE so that he can at least get paid the full 3 years of his contract.

Aron Winter get so a other job, everyone in the footbal world know he is a good coach and when he dont make it in Toronto nobody care about that because Canada (Toronto) isnt a soccer city

[ExiledRed]

Maicon Santos is about one dimensional player as it gets. He's a poacher striker who can only play in very few formations, and inconsistent as hell. It's not like Mariner/Winter gave away Santos for free

We'll revisit this next week.

[Yohan]

We compounded our own problems with that one. I think his performance this year is above what would realistically be expected, but he is a very serviceable MLS player who fills needs and is available at a good price. Limitations will always a part of the players you have in a league with a small payroll. All said and done, he has limitations a coach should be able to work with and turn into production ...

We now resort to complaining about what happens when Koevermans is out of the lineup when we had a player who filled that need but gave him away. DCU played a 4-3-3 last night BTW
DC normally plays 4-4-2 or 4-4-2 diamond under Ben Olsen. Being 2nd striker is best (and only) formation Santos works good in. Santos scored a bunch for TFC under 4-3-3 too. Doesn't mean he's effective if he can't do it consistently over the year. (Both in TFC and Dallas)

[ExiledRed]

What exactly do you mean by this? What 'whimsy' are you talking about?

If Toronto can't meet the CSA requirements as a professional team, they why wouldn't the CSA be able to removed the sanctioning from Toronto? Seems pretty cut and dry, you have to meet certain standards to be sanctioned. But where is this even coming from? Why are you even talking about the CSA not sanctioning Toronto? Are you upset that Toronto has a Canadian quota and is expected to develop Canadian players?

The CSA 100% needs reformed but setting standards for their professional clubs isn't one of their problem. And with a country the size of Canada, with the population so spread out and profession soccer not being a main stream sport you can't really blame for CSA for their not being a division one league in Canada.


The reason I brought this all up in the first place it because, "I dont like the assumption that this team is an extension of the CSA and that MLSE should be using the profits from TFC to compensate for the CSA's failings." But Toronto is basically an extension of the CSA. But what I don't know is, how is CSA using MLSE profits? Is MLSE cutting a cheque to the CSA? And what failings are you talking about? Player development? Don't most footballers all over the world get developed by professional clubs?

"meanwhile on the sidelines, the bumbling coach that makes error after error is considered the saviour of canadian soccer."

This also bothered me because I really don't know where this is coming from? Where has any supporter the CMNT said the Winter is saviour of Canadian soccer or has said he should stay at Toronto?

Being part of a national federation is not being an extension of the authority. The CSA had no case to prevent TFC from starting up and joining MLS, and to pretend that Toronto is somewhat obliged to fulfill the CSA's duties and prepare players for the national team at the expense of their business model is ludicrous.

Vancouver and Montreal are not sacrificing short term results in the pursuit of training the next CMNT squad, nor is the CSA threatening them with removal of their status as sanctioned teams.

[ExiledRed]

DC normally plays 4-4-2 or 4-4-2 diamond under Ben Olsen. Being 2nd striker is best (and only) formation Santos works good in. Santos scored a bunch for TFC under 4-3-3 too. Doesn't mean he's effective if he can't do it consistently over the year. (Both in TFC and Dallas)

Santos was persistently played out of position, despite carrying the team through the VC. He was dicked around by winter because he wasnt an AM, and didnt play very well when he was forced to play there.

[ag futbol]

Aron Winter get so a other job, everyone in the footbal world know he is a good coach and when he dont make it in Toronto nobody care about that because Canada (Toronto) isnt a soccer city
Yep I'm sure that C.V. of youth coach, followed by two years of nothing, followed by running one of the worst MLS sides ever will have people jumping out of windows to secure his services.

[Yohan]

Santos was persistently played out of position, despite carrying the team through the VC. He was dicked around by winter because he wasnt an AM, and didnt play very well when he was forced to play there.
Santos wasn't that good when played as lone striker either. He couldn't hold the ball.

[ExiledRed]

Santos wasn't that good when played as lone striker either. He couldn't hold the ball.

So who' do we have that's a better forward and capable of consistently scoring goals against the run of play at any point in the ninety? Frings?

[Jack]

Playing Santos as lone striker is also a misuse of his talents.

[Flipityflu]

Aron Winter get so a other job, everyone in the footbal world know he is a good coach and when he dont make it in Toronto nobody care about that because Canada (Toronto) isnt a soccer city

oh yeah, next step is Barca.

[Yohan]

So who' do we have that's a better forward and capable of consistently scoring goals against the run of play at any point in the ninety? Frings?

Ryan Johnson?

There's reason why Maicon Santos has been traded/released by 3 MLS clubs already

[bman27]

On a well coached team with a system that works to the strengths of the squad assembled, The system will make up for occasional individual mistakes. we are playing a high risk system, and it is making the players look worse then they actually are.

[ExiledRed]

Ryan Johnson?

There's reason why Maicon Santos has been traded/released by 3 MLS clubs already

There's also a reason he's good for 6 goals in 9 games at DC. But we wont talk about adapting a system around your best players, we'll instead pan players for their inability to metamorph into different players whenever the coach needs them to.

[Yohan]

There's also a reason he's good for 6 goals in 9 games at DC. But we wont talk about adapting a system around your best players, we'll instead pan players for their inability to metamorph into different players whenever the coach needs them to.or, you get rid of players that can't play your system and get ones that can.

speaking of adapting system for players, funny how DC's two DPs, Boskovic and Salihi so far have been shite. Santos was brought in at DC to be a depth striker, and it just worked out for DC and Olsen that he's hit form right now.

[Jack]

Chris Cummins had the best record of any TFC coach. He actually won more than he lost.

[ensco]

There's also a reason he's good for 6 goals in 9 games at DC. But we wont talk about adapting a system around your best players, we'll instead pan players for their inability to metamorph into different players whenever the coach needs them to.

The guy is a fine player, not a star, but definitely easy to imagine him scoring lots of goals in the right spot. He had several beauties here, Reason he bounced around is, you can't use an international slot for a backup striker in this league.

[Roogsy]

We compounded our own problems with that one. I think his performance this year is above what would realistically be expected, but he is a very serviceable MLS player who fills needs and is available at a good price. Limitations will always a part of the players you have in a league with a small payroll. All said and done, he has limitations a coach should be able to work with and turn into production ...

We now resort to complaining about what happens when Koevermans is out of the lineup when we had a player who filled that need but gave him away. DCU played a 4-3-3 last night BTW

This.

Maicon is no saviour we can all agree. But he comes cheap and fills a gap. Beggers can't be choosers. Not being able to work with Maicon is indicative of Winter's shortcomings because MLS teams have to have those types of players. And yes we got Avila for him...generally considered a good deal and yet he's been riding the bench for most of the season until the last couple of games. Not good use of assets.