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denime
04-25-2012, 05:31 AM
Mornin'




TFC TV (http://www.torontofc.ca/video)




Winter Refuses To Panic
(http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/04/winter-refuses-panic)

Winter convinced TFC playoff bound (http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/24/winter-convinced-tfc-is-playoff-bound)


Winter: Toronto FC will make playoffs (http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/04/24/mls_toronto_fc_aron_winter/)


Toronto FC manager says playoffs are still in reach of winless MLS team (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/1167468--toronto-fc-manager-says-playoffs-are-still-in-reach-of-winless-mls-team)


Tough women's Olympic soccer draw for Canada (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/olympics/tough-womens-olympic-soccer-draw-for-canada/article2412878/)


Liverpool to play TFC in exhibition game at Rogers Centre (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/liverpool-to-play-tfc-in-exhibition-game-at-rogers-centre/article2412442/)


Rogers Centre To Host Friendly
(http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/04/rogers-centre-host-friendly)

Tickets for Liverpool FC-Toronto FC match on sale next week




(http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/article/1167149--tickets-for-liverpool-fc-toronto-fc-match-on-sale-next-week)TFC Related Blogs !!


(http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?29582-TFC-MLS-blogs-thread)


SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshine-girl)


(http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/article/1167149--tickets-for-liverpool-fc-toronto-fc-match-on-sale-next-week)

ensco
04-25-2012, 06:04 AM
This stuff about needing "personalities" and "coaching" on the pitch is a bit weird. What is he saying exactly? Is he calling out Frings and Koevermans? Cann?

What you want is good communication, not coaching, on the pitch. That isn't the place for kids to defer to veterans.

Fort York Redcoat
04-25-2012, 06:33 AM
^Excerpt from


Winter Refuses To Panic (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/04/winter-refuses-panic)


One thing that he would like to see return is better communication among players on the pitch, especially from more experienced players in helping or coaching the younger players. He said that it was happening during the CCL matches but “at a certain moment it slipped away.”

Technorgasm
04-25-2012, 06:50 AM
all this jaw-yapping soudns like a blame game to me.
Managers are to take the results of the team on thie rshoulders!!!!!

shoudl read liek this
"We have a plan, and we are only executing parts of it, I take the full blame for the results thus far, but believe in my players, belive in what we aretrying to do here, and vow to do all I can personally to ensure we improve. I am proud of my boys and their efforts, their professionalism and how they go about their work. . . . . ITS MY FAULT. . . love Arron."

throwing your players under the bus, pointing out their short comings and talking about how THEY can improve is fucking bollocks!
Take a page out of some managers (KD) approach to the media. you are there to FIGHT for your squad, give them the confidence and LEADERship they need when things are going to horribly, horribly wrong.
dont try to save your own face., fucking BURN IT OFF for teh squad, sacrfice yourself for the good of the team.
its your most important job.

God I am fucking worked up now. . .

Technorgasm
04-25-2012, 06:55 AM
and ANOTHER thing. . .
IF all we can find are SSGs with no tits and pot bellies to be in our paper, lets just run Page3 Girls from the UK.
Thanks. . .

Edit: shit that was biotchy. . its going to be a l-o-n-g fucking day.
no one better fucking cross me or Ill fucking Norb them.

Edit 2 you know what ELSE grinds my gears?
Thigns are not going right on the field for TFC, yet we have a roster of young players that would give their righ tNUT to play with teh first team.
Might insipre some of the players to show a bit more ambition out there. . .

oh and welcoem back peaches. . hope your 100%!!

everyoen everywhere fuck off and eat my corny shit.
Happy fucking hump day fcukin fuckity fuck fuck. . . .

ensco
04-25-2012, 06:57 AM
To elaborate, I question Winter's reasoning in going public with this particular issue. It has more than a whiff of finger-pointing.

Every team needs good communication on the field. All players must do it. Not just experienced players.

The question is, why isn't it happening? It's Winter who is supposed to know, and fix it, not talk about mysteriously about how it stopped at a certain point, then put some sort of on-field coaching burden on "experienced players".

Most of this belonged in the room. A simple "we need to communicate better" is sufficient for the scribes. Winter really is a rube.

On the heels of the disagreement over who moved Frings forward Saturday, is this more evidence of a rift between and Winter and Frings?

Klinsmann
04-25-2012, 07:02 AM
TFC should give the SSH free tickets to the Liverpool match!

Fort York Redcoat
04-25-2012, 07:04 AM
Not trying to stir shit up, but on the heels of the disagreement over who moved Frings forward Saturday, is this evidence of a rift between and Winter and Frings?

No. And it's petulant journo's stirring shit up when there's enough shit there to bitch about without trying to make more. (The journos. Not you. We can discuss that "what ifs" all day:D)

Fort York Redcoat
04-25-2012, 07:05 AM
TFC should give the SSH free tickets to the Liverpool match!

No thanks. I don't want them.

trane
04-25-2012, 07:16 AM
We need to get the first points? No shit? Thanks Einstein. How about we need to win, at this point one point hardly makes a difference.

I would say this to Mr. Winter, results talk, bullshit walks. I agree with him that the playoffs can still be achieved, but he seems to think that he has more time then he has to straighten shit our. Every droped point is a step back.

He should be installing a sense of urgency in his players. Not panic but urgency.

Section 117
04-25-2012, 07:19 AM
To elaborate, I question Winter's reasoning in going public with this particular issue. It has more than a whiff of finger-pointing.

Every team needs good communication on the field. All players must do it. Not just experienced players.

The question is, why isn't it happening? It's Winter who is supposed to know, and fix it, not talk about mysteriously about how it stopped at a certain point, then put some sort of on-field coaching burden on "experienced players".

Most of this belonged in the room. A simple "we need to communicate better" is sufficient for the scribes. Winter really is a rube.

On the heels of the disagreement over who moved Frings forward Saturday, is this more evidence of a rift between and Winter and Frings?

To the bolded part of your comment, if a team is losing what is the natural thing to do is press for a goal. Why would Winter need to tell Frings to push forward it is the right thing to do. This argument that Winter lost the room because Frings decided to push forward to try and score the equalizer is a fucking joke. I know many of you don't like him as coach, but to use this a joke. To the idiot who wrote the article he is a bigger moron then anybody.

Ensurco this isnt directed at you but enough is enough about that part of the game....

ensco
04-25-2012, 07:23 AM
^you guys are probably right, the Frings thing probably isn't much. It's more that every single thing Winter says in relation to the players comes out as a little off, and I'm not in the mood for it anymore. Never was, truth be told, nothing is more important than how the manager discusses his players in public.

Beach_Red
04-25-2012, 07:31 AM
^ Bah, as soon as someone says, "In north America they think..." it's the same broken record. Sure pal, every North American team thinks exactly the same way all the time, they're all about the short-term.... I wonder if he could even name the other teams in the league or has any idea how they've been built?

trane
04-25-2012, 07:33 AM
The only thing that I got out of Frings moving forward is that he was frustrated and was pushing realy hard for the goal. Which as you say is understandable.

I think the confusiosn came from reports that he was asked to play AM and even forward. Which does not realy appear to be the case, at some points everyone attackes and everyone defends, that does not make everyone forwards or CBs.

ensco
04-25-2012, 07:39 AM
The only thing that I got out of Frings moving forward is that he was frustrated and was pushing realy hard for the goal. Which as you say is understandable.

I think the confusiosn came from reports that he was asked to play AM and even forward. Which does not realy appear to be the case, at some points everyone attackes and everyone defends, that does not make everyone forwards or CBs.

Anybody who was at the game will tell you, It wasn't some ebb and flow in attacking mode thing, Frings was playing striker, and striker only, for the last 20 minutes Saturday.

trane
04-25-2012, 07:43 AM
^ I was at the office working, watching the game on my lap top when I could.

If that is the case, that is strange. I saw that he moved way up like right at the edge of the box, but there were players infront of him, but I did not see him playing right up front like and out and out striker, but again at that point I was in client meetings.

mastermixer
04-25-2012, 08:18 AM
I have learned to try not to take too much into what Winter says. It seems that sometimes he just spurts out words to answer the questions so he can move on.
All we can hope is that Winter see's the issues, has learned from HIS mistakes, and knows what needs to be done, without having to explain it to the media everyday.

RESULTS PLEASE.

nickio
04-25-2012, 08:39 AM
I think everyone needs to chill about what Winter is saying. Including the media.

-English is not his native tongue, and he often does not understand the advanced wording and questions from very literate journalists, who use jargon and verbal contradictions in their questions. Trick questions
-His control of the language is poor, in that he translates from Dutch. It comes out wrong in English but will sound normal in Dutch. (English is not my first language and I'm an immigrant, I can Totally understand where Winter is coming from: while average Native English speaker will not understand the challenge in expressing his frustration)
-And most importantly, the journalists are fueling all kinds of fires, THAT ARE SIMPLY NOT THERE: Loss of control, Serious issues in front office, Players getting mad at the coach and so on.

Does Winter deserve this fire?! Yes, of course he does, he's responsible. But YOU as a fan, DON'T Believe the BS that's starting around this. It's obviously not true, if it were- HE WOULD BE GONE. Losing streak = negativism = speculation

I played hockey and a soccer for most of my life, if my team goes on a losing streak- our locker room is not a nice place to be in. That doesn't mean that anyone wants to give up on the team, even though we'll be upset with ourselves and each other at times. We take it seriously and we're not even professionals. I can only imagine the pressure on these guys. It's NORMAL and the last thing to do is to blow things up.

C.Ronaldo
04-25-2012, 10:04 AM
I think winter is talking about JDG.
He went from a few decent games to complete garbage and subsequently benched.
from commanding the mid to commanding a latte

Stouffville_RPB
04-25-2012, 10:55 AM
Losing streak = negativism = speculation

I played hockey and a soccer for most of my life, if my team goes on a losing streak- our locker room is not a nice place to be in. That doesn't mean that anyone wants to give up on the team, even though we'll be upset with ourselves and each other at times. We take it seriously and we're not even professionals. I can only imagine the pressure on these guys. It's NORMAL and the last thing to do is to blow things up.

Exactly. Nobody likes losing and especially not professional athletes. Emotions are running rampant right now as everyone (players, coaches, FO and fans) wants the monkey off their back.

Couchy81
04-25-2012, 11:22 AM
The media is asking ridiculous questions, it is amateurish, and Winter is simply giving answers to questions he wants to hear, not the questions actually being asked.

Beach_Red
04-25-2012, 11:33 AM
The media is asking ridiculous questions, it is amateurish, and Winter is simply giving answers to questions he wants to hear, not the questions actually being asked.

What questions should the media be asking?

mastermixer
04-25-2012, 11:42 AM
Press is all over Winter's quote that they will make the playoffs. Watching the recent scrum on TFCtv from where they pulled the quote, he never once said it would be this year. Maybe a follow up question confirming he meant "this year" would have helped put out these fires, but they got the quote they wanted for the story.

Couchy81
04-25-2012, 11:45 AM
What questions should the media be asking?

Questions that will open Winter up and get him to speak, not drill him with questions that will put him on the defensive and make him repeat himself over and over... you get less info and it makes you look like a poor journalist.

jloome
04-25-2012, 11:48 AM
To elaborate, I question Winter's reasoning in going public with this particular issue. It has more than a whiff of finger-pointing.

Every team needs good communication on the field. All players must do it. Not just experienced players.

The question is, why isn't it happening? It's Winter who is supposed to know, and fix it, not talk about mysteriously about how it stopped at a certain point, then put some sort of on-field coaching burden on "experienced players".

Most of this belonged in the room. A simple "we need to communicate better" is sufficient for the scribes. Winter really is a rube.

On the heels of the disagreement over who moved Frings forward Saturday, is this more evidence of a rift between and Winter and Frings?

Look man, you know I'm pretty much onside with the concern that he's just not cutting it. But you're jumping to some "blood in the water" conclusions here.

a) Maybe he talked about it to the players first. There's nothing wrong with a coach admitting his players aren't talking enough on the pitch. That's what he's talking about. His English is good.

b) Cathal Kelly could easily have conlflated that story. Winter was talking about moving Frings "forward' positionally, to midfield from defence. Frings was talking about pushing into the box. Two different things, so two different answers.

Beach_Red
04-25-2012, 11:55 AM
Questions that will open Winter up and get him to speak, not drill him with questions that will put him on the defensive and make him repeat himself over and over... you get less info and it makes you look like a poor journalist.

Okay, makes sense. It's a tough situation, though, and Winter hasn't really seemed like the 'open up' type since he's been here. Likely the language issue is a problem. But really, what's to say? Everybody knows the team needs to win a game. I think Winter is right that the team isn't as bad as the 0-6 record makes it look and when they do start winning it will turn around, but there's not much else he can say now and there's not much else the media can ask him.

jloome
04-25-2012, 11:55 AM
What questions should the media be asking?

Dude, I've been a journalist for 23 years. The questions they ask are shit. General, basic, designed to get answers that fit preconceived notions of the next day's story and to meet deadline quickly. The TV guys are the worst, but the print guys do it too.

Some good questions would get in to specific decisions, specific conversations with specific players. Hard questions, examining the stat indicators of repeat problems, the scouting effciency, the level of responsibility of the manager himself.

But sports reporters have this weird "play nice" with the team culture these days, because they're always afraid of losing player access. This is particularly true at MLSE which, by reputation, has one of the worst communications departments on earth (perhaps second only to the Oilers, but that's another story.)

Good reporters are confrontational because confrontation springs new ideas, puts people on edge, takes out their comfort zone and gets them to answer honestly. Most reporters are afraid to ask long, complex questions and schools even teach you to keep it simple, but a long question automatically turns the interview into a conversation of sorts, and it's always easier to get a real answer in a conversation.

Seriously, 95% of my industry is shit. It used to be about 80%, but then the people who own us figured out how to work with the people who demonize us. The cycle of shared, repeated, unoriginal, contextually irrelevant crap out there now is truly astonishing.

Beach_Red
04-25-2012, 12:05 PM
Dude, I've been a journalist for 23 years. The questions they ask are shit. General, basic, designed to get answers that fit preconceived notions of the next day's story and to meet deadline quickly. The TV guys are the worst, but the print guys do it too.

Some good questions would get in to specific decisions, specific conversations with specific players. Hard questions, examining the stat indicators of repeat problems, the scouting effciency, the level of responsibility of the manager himself.

But sports reporters have this weird "play nice" with the team culture these days, because they're always afraid of losing player access. This is particularly true at MLSE which, by reputation, has one of the worst communications departments on earth (perhaps second only to the Oilers, but that's another story.)

Good reporters are confrontational because confrontation springs new ideas, puts people on edge, takes out their comfort zone and gets them to answer honestly. Most reporters are afraid to ask long, complex questions and schools even teach you to keep it simple, but a long question automatically turns the interview into a conversation of sorts, and it's always easier to get a real answer in a conversation.

Seriously, 95% of my industry is shit. It used to be about 80%, but then the people who own us figured out how to work with the people who demonize us. The cycle of shared, repeated, unoriginal, contextually irrelevant crap out there now is truly astonishing.

Sure, in the big picture you're right. But do you really think asking Winter, "long, complex questions," is going to start a conversation with the guy? One of his answers to one of the "amateurish" questions started with, "People in north America think..." sorry, that's pretty much a conversation stopper.

Couchy81
04-25-2012, 12:05 PM
I listened to that interview last night, and again today, and all he really said was:

-Management has faith in him
-He has faith in the team/making the playoffs
-There needs to be more inter-player communication on the pitch (Johnson himself said players are playing confused and out of position in his interview)
-As manager he is 100% responsible for 0-6
-0-6 is a poor record
-Injury report

Am I missing anything?

v00d00daddy
04-25-2012, 01:12 PM
Sure, in the big picture you're right. But do you really think asking Winter, "long, complex questions," is going to start a conversation with the guy? One of his answers to one of the "amateurish" questions started with, "People in north America think..." sorry, that's pretty much a conversation stopper.

Why is that a coversation stopper?

Was he hired to coach the team using a north American based system and viewpoint?

Of course not. He is trying to explain how he sees the differences between how the game is played and taught here and how it's done elsewhere.

He's just giving his viewpoint. That's what he was hired to impart on this organisation.

People get offended because it's slagging the North American game but it's not a personal attack.

He's just pointing out the differences.

It comes off as "throwing players under the bus" because it's not easy to say "some players in our squad lack fundamental skills"

Sometimes the truth hurts

Beach_Red
04-25-2012, 01:37 PM
Do you think he has enough understanding of north America and MLS to make that kind of statement? Some players on every team in this league lack skill but every other team has managed to win some games.

It may simply be a language issue, who knows, but he's certainly making it tougher for himself to win in this league. It's not personal, but it's competitive and the truth is, he's not winning.

ag futbol
04-25-2012, 02:00 PM
Yeah, hearing something like that it's like "oh god, here we go, replay the record".

The graveyard of foreign coaches who underestimated major league soccer is quite extensive.

Beach_Red
04-25-2012, 02:10 PM
Yeah, hearing something like that it's like "oh god, here we go, replay the record".

The graveyard of foreign coaches who underestimated major league soccer is quite extensive.

Sometimes it makes me think of the quote from George Lucas when he started working with video and everyone told him it was crap: "Film is as good as it will ever be, video will only get better."

v00d00daddy
04-25-2012, 05:13 PM
Do you think he has enough understanding of north America and MLS to make that kind of statement? Some players on every team in this league lack skill but every other team has managed to win some games.

It may simply be a language issue, who knows, but he's certainly making it tougher for himself to win in this league. It's not personal, but it's competitive and the truth is, he's not winning.

I know it's heavily results based but I think the vision is to become a team that plays the game differently than most others in MLS.

I'm not sure how much understanding of NA and MLS is needed when the hope is to build a club that breaks the mold of what MLS has become.

Personally that's what I've hoped TFC would be from day one. I said as much way back in the days of 2007 on the old boards.

Granted...I didn't think it would be so tough and so fruitless but for me...if I can sit through 4+ years of unattractive soccer at TFC, I can sit through the (immense) growing pains it's taking to change the philosophy.

When it comes to soccer in this country I'm all about changing the style in the hopes that we can one day compete with some of the worlds best.

If TFC is the vehicle to get that done, I can suffer through 0-6 starts.


Yeah, hearing something like that it's like "oh god, here we go, replay the record".

The graveyard of foreign coaches who underestimated major league soccer is quite extensive.

I don't think it's an underestimation...it's more a lack of caring about how it's done in MLS. I know that sounds arrogant and pompous but so be it. If the end goal is just to compete at the same game as what's been played here since 1996 then, for me, there's no point. I don't care to see that.

Moving towards skill based, possession based football is what this city and country needs (in my humble opinion).

Now...if we want to question whether or not Winter or his methods are the way to get it done then I get that. His lack of results so far are hard to support. But that's another argument all together.

Should the vision of growing the team from youngsters up to be able to play a skill based game be scrapped? No

Should the man tryin to get it done be scrapped? Maybe.

Beach_Red
04-25-2012, 06:05 PM
^ I guess it's this assumption that no one else is trying, or no one else has thought of this. I've only been following since TFC joined, but even in that time MLS has gotten better. How long will it take to compete with the world's best? How long did these guys think it would take when they came up with this plan?

it's really two seperate things, isn't it? Changing the culture at the grass roots level and running a professional team in a specific league that has different rules than the rest of the world. Why did they tie those things together so tightly and why were they in such a rush?

ExiledRed
04-25-2012, 06:35 PM
and ANOTHER thing. . .
IF all we can find are SSGs with no tits and pot bellies to be in our paper, lets just run Page3 Girls from the UK.
Thanks. . .

Edit: shit that was biotchy. . its going to be a l-o-n-g fucking day.
no one better fucking cross me or Ill fucking Norb them.

Edit 2 you know what ELSE grinds my gears?
Thigns are not going right on the field for TFC, yet we have a roster of young players that would give their righ tNUT to play with teh first team.
Might insipre some of the players to show a bit more ambition out there. . .

oh and welcoem back peaches. . hope your 100%!!

everyoen everywhere fuck off and eat my corny shit.
Happy fucking hump day fcukin fuckity fuck fuck. . . .

Techno..... loving what you say about the coach absorbing flak for the players instead of deposing them to it.

page 3 girls is a S*n thing, and possibly offensive to a number of users.

Ron Manager
04-25-2012, 06:53 PM
I think everyone needs to chill about what Winter is saying. Including the media.

-English is not his native tongue, and he often does not understand the advanced wording and questions from very literate journalists, who use jargon and verbal contradictions in their questions. Trick questions
-His control of the language is poor, in that he translates from Dutch. It comes out wrong in English but will sound normal in Dutch. (English is not my first language and I'm an immigrant, I can Totally understand where Winter is coming from: while average Native English speaker will not understand the challenge in expressing his frustration)
-And most importantly, the journalists are fueling all kinds of fires, THAT ARE SIMPLY NOT THERE: Loss of control, Serious issues in front office, Players getting mad at the coach and so on.

Does Winter deserve this fire?! Yes, of course he does, he's responsible. But YOU as a fan, DON'T Believe the BS that's starting around this. It's obviously not true, if it were- HE WOULD BE GONE. Losing streak = negativism = speculation

I played hockey and a soccer for most of my life, if my team goes on a losing streak- our locker room is not a nice place to be in. That doesn't mean that anyone wants to give up on the team, even though we'll be upset with ourselves and each other at times. We take it seriously and we're not even professionals. I can only imagine the pressure on these guys. It's NORMAL and the last thing to do is to blow things up.

Unfortunately the highlighted portion is very true.

v00d00daddy
04-25-2012, 06:56 PM
^ I guess it's this assumption that no one else is trying, or no one else has thought of this. I've only been following since TFC joined, but even in that time MLS has gotten better. How long will it take to compete with the world's best? How long did these guys think it would take when they came up with this plan?

it's really two seperate things, isn't it? Changing the culture at the grass roots level and running a professional team in a specific league that has different rules than the rest of the world. Why did they tie those things together so tightly and why were they in such a rush?

There are other teams that are trying to play a more possession based game. RSL comes to mind for sure. But I'm not sure what their philosophy is. I don't follow other teams close enough to know. But again...it's not really the point as far as I'm concerned. TFC have decided to go a certain route. In theory....I like the route. I hope it's something that can be brought to fruition.

How long will it take to compete with the worlds best? LONG. LOL

How long did these guys think it would take? I don't know that answer but I think it's fair to assume that 1 season plus a wretched start to a second isn't exactly the kind of time frame that it might take to change the philosophy of an entire club.....including the fan base. LOL

I agree with you that the change at the grass roots level is different than running a pro team but let's not forget that changing things at the grass roots level is also a part of the TFC plan. I know it needs to be balanced with results now...and I'd hoped that there wouldn't be such a gap between instilling a new philosophy and getting results sooner than later, but it is what it is.

The two are tied together so tightly because, I think, to implement a new ideology you need an across the board buy in. There needs to be one common goal (which already exits...to compete on the club and national team level) and there also needs to be a common vision. This does not yet exist. Kids need to be taught that fundamentals, skill, vision, team play, adaptability are the most important things. Gone are the days where heart, athleticism, work rate and toughness are enough to compete. And unfortunately....that's all the previous incarnations have been built upon. Even when we had uber talented players (like DeRo) we still had to sacrifice the team game. There was no structure. Nothing that younger players could dial in on and say "hey....so that's how it's done"

Again, just my opinion but I still want this club to continue with their vision of playing better football. Maybe Winter isn't the guy. Maybe Rongen is. Time will tell.

But I just hope they don't scrap the whole idea because of a lack of results right now. I think that would be a mistake.

Whoop
04-25-2012, 07:23 PM
But I just hope they don't scrap the whole idea because of a lack of results right now. I think that would be a mistake.

I don't think that's the case.

I find too many people think firing Winter means scrapping the whole idea.

I don't see that. denime has said based on the discussions he's had with the people at the academy that the first team and the academy are separate. The academy has its vision and it's not changing.

As for Winter... it's about the results with the first team. He's not working. The question is can TFC find someone to get results with the first team? Ideally keeping the same principles but if not, for the time being, so be it.

jloome
04-25-2012, 07:39 PM
Sure, in the big picture you're right. But do you really think asking Winter, "long, complex questions," is going to start a conversation with the guy? One of his answers to one of the "amateurish" questions started with, "People in north America think..." sorry, that's pretty much a conversation stopper.

I was talking generally about long, complex questions. You obviously simplify how you ask it for a guy who has English as a second language, but the content still has to drive to a point and force him to answer it. If you ask him "statistics show playing from the back has caused twice as many tackles in your end as any other team," he's going to understand that. But it also force shim to address the specifics.

If his answer is still "it's the players' fault" so be it. But it still GETS ON THE RECORD what the problem is. If he doesn't recognize reality, it's not hard to get a second quote from someone objective who can point it out.