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denime
04-22-2012, 07:16 AM
Mornin'




TFC TV



(http://www.torontofc.ca/video)Toronto Thwarted At BMO Field


(http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2012/04/toronto-thwarted-bmo-field)Toronto FC falls to Chicago, slides to 0-6


(http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2012/04/21/sp-torontofc-mls-chicaghofire.html)Sixth straight loss gives TFC second-worst start in MLS history


(http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/sixth-straight-loss-gives-tfc-second-worst-start-in-mls-history/article2410101/)Toronto FC remains winless after 3-2 loss to Chicago Fire (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/1165833--toronto-fc-remains-winless-after-3-2-loss-to-chicago-fire)


Kelly: Toronto FC’s discontent appears to begin with Winter (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/1165893--kelly-toronto-fc-s-discontent-appears-to-begin-with-winter)


TFC upended yet again (http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/04/21/toronto_fc_lose_sixth_straight/)


TFC: Six games, zero points (http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/21/tfc-six-games-zero-points)


MLS standings, TFC 19th (http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/mls/standings)





TFC Related Blogs !!



(http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?29582-TFC-MLS-blogs-thread)


SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshine-girl)







(http://www.torontofc.ca/video)

Parkdale
04-22-2012, 07:39 AM
good morning!

(although I'm not so sure what's good about it....)

SoccMan
04-22-2012, 07:41 AM
Wow, just wow is all I can say after reading Kelly's column in the Star. Winter has lost it he may have never had it and that's why this team is where it is today is the conclusion I'm starting to come to. It's very simple coaching at the pro level is not for eveyone, actually, coaching at any level is not for eveyone. I'm starting to think that is what we may have here, someone in charge that is not competent at the job and that my friends is in very simple terms the problem we may have here.

Parkdale
04-22-2012, 07:46 AM
The Kelly piece is really good today. he's writing the between-the-lines story and makes a good point - the season isn't going according to plan, or maybe the plan is just no good?

Three-four-three, four-four-two, two-two-three-three, three-two-five. We saw them all on Saturday.

Sadly, none of them seemed to work

Parkdale
04-22-2012, 07:50 AM
I'm starting to think that is what we may have here, someone in charge that is not competent at the job and that my friends is in very simple terms the problem we may have here.

But the bigger question is "why has this been the case for 6 seasons?".

trane
04-22-2012, 07:59 AM
Did Winter not understand that we did not have enough quality at the back last season?

Parkdale
04-22-2012, 08:01 AM
Did Winter not understand that we did not have enough quality at the back last season?

and when he says that were missing players, there's no one else to blame. We had a problem, he had an offseason to fix it. Why is it not fixed? There's only one person to ask.

Detroit_TFC
04-22-2012, 08:17 AM
In a situation like this, irritations become problems and problems become crises. As we know. We've been here before.

Wagner
04-22-2012, 09:18 AM
But we looked good in the CCL games. where is that team??

jabbronies
04-22-2012, 09:32 AM
But we looked good in the CCL games. where is that team??

This is the part I don't get. How does this team come out the way it did against LA and Santos and then end up playing against MLS teams the way we do?

Ossington Mental Youth
04-22-2012, 09:42 AM
and when he says that were missing players, there's no one else to blame. We had a problem, he had an offseason to fix it. Why is it not fixed? There's only one person to ask.

maybe two people. isnt Mariner in charge of pulling in people?

Ossington Mental Youth
04-22-2012, 09:43 AM
But we looked good in the CCL games. where is that team??

yeah I wonder the exact same thing

Red Rat
04-22-2012, 11:22 AM
I hate Kelly but he nailed it, now my question is "Have the players given up on Winter?"

Oldtimer
04-22-2012, 11:46 AM
I hate Kelly but he nailed it, now my question is "Have the players given up on Winter?" That's the big question. If they have, Winter will have to go. I'm not sure if I trust anything from Kelly, but it will certainly come out soon if he has lost the locker room.

I talked with my old Brit friend today, who's a SSH but not a hardcore supporter, he figures Winter has about 2 more weeks to turn it around or he's gone. I think he's right.

TFC/Everton
04-22-2012, 11:57 AM
I am so sick and tired of year after year reading about problems with managers, problems in the dressing room, problems on the field.... UGH!!! I could scream at the top of my lungs!!! The Toronto Star article was to some extent gotcha journalism, yes, but it's also true that our problems are far greater then the on field results... We wont turn it around if the players don't believe in the manager.

Let Mariner Manage, let Earl be the GM and lets never use the words Total Football again! Because this has been a total disaster!

ArmenJBX
04-22-2012, 12:06 PM
Players don't seem like they've given up on Winter at all.
I think our CCL success comes from the style of play in total - we played much more open.
We've built a decent side, but not a decent MLS side, and that's the issue. Where is the MLS depth? How is it that Montreal has better depth than us already?

This is the issue - Toronto is a leagueless team. When you're only hopes for substitutes are academy players or rookies like Maund, how do you win?

Mark in Ottawa
04-22-2012, 12:40 PM
I am so sick and tired of year after year reading about problems with managers, problems in the dressing room, problems on the field....
Isn't that always the way with a team that is not winning??

If this team was able to win say ... 3 games in a row ... even if they didn't play exceptionally well in them ...
what would the talking points be like then??

moralis
04-22-2012, 12:49 PM
Michael Ballack confirms on German television that he will play in MLS: No specific club named

http://www.mlssoccer.com/blog/post/2012/04/22/video-ballack-confirme-son-intention-de-jouer-en-mls

Anybody understand German

Parkdale
04-22-2012, 12:59 PM
Michael Ballack confirms on German television that he will play in MLS: No specific club named

http://www.mlssoccer.com/blog/post/2012/04/22/video-ballack-confirme-son-intention-de-jouer-en-mls

Anybody understand German

so Ballack plays center mid, and JDG plays center mid...........

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 01:03 PM
And from what Techno says, TFC want JDG out?

Hmmm...

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 01:08 PM
Players don't seem like they've given up on Winter at all.

Can we we ask why you think so?


I think our CCL success comes from the style of play in total - we played much more open.

I heard this before and I beg to differ. I don't think our success in CCL had to do with the style as it did a TFC team that was clicking at the time facing MLS teams that were faltering, Dallas and LA. It was the right conditions. If those teams were facing the TFC team today, despite the "style", we'd be out.


We've built a decent side, but not a decent MLS side, and that's the issue. Where is the MLS depth? How is it that Montreal has better depth than us already?

I am not sure what this means. If we have built a decent side, but not decent for MLS, what is it decent for? The teams we face in CCL fall in 3 categories. MLS sides, Mexican sides, and everyone else in Central America. If we're not built for MLS, then regardless if it's league or CCL, success will be limited. Mexican sides are above and beyond MLS sides, regardless of style. And Central American sides can be beat with any number of styles as has already been proven by us and others. So what are we a decent side for if not MLS?


This is the issue - Toronto is a leagueless team. When you're only hopes for substitutes are academy players or rookies like Maund, how do you win?

The same way other MLS teams do, since many face the same issues and problems.

shutupkid
04-22-2012, 01:14 PM
It's funny that the CCL "success" we speak of from this year was 1 win, 1 loss, 2 draws and a -6 goal differential. :facepalm:

Oldtimer
04-22-2012, 01:29 PM
It's funny that the CCL "success" we speak of from this year was 1 win, 1 loss, 2 draws and a -6 goal differential. :facepalm: People are including last year's CCL games... I would think that would be obvious as the CCL calendar is fall to spring.

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 01:52 PM
People are including last year's CCL games... I would think that would be obvious as the CCL calendar is fall to spring.

I agree that the overall CCL is better than the last 4 games. It's silly to skew things without taking it all into account.

But that too is key OT. We have to factor in everything. These are the facts of the CCL.

1) We advanced. That in itself is a success, nobody should deny it.
2) We have 6 wins, 3 draws and 3 losses in CCL play, both prelim and group stage. That's a winning record, period.
3) We tied Santos at home and beat LA, two good teams. We should be proud of this.

Now...given the above, it is foolish not to account for the following:

1) 2 of those wins came against Real Esteli...basically a semi-pro team.
2) We beat Dallas while they were in the middle of their worst form in years. They not only lost to us but a whole bunch of other people. We cannot ignore this.
3) Beating LA looked good at the time, but given their poor form in the league to start the year, it is looking less impressive.

Now...personally to me, a win is a win. I don't care that Dallas was in poor form or that LA was suffering from a Championship hangover. We won. It's 3 points. And we deserved to go through because we won. Nobody should argue that and I am glad TFC fans got a chance to taste SOME success after 6 years of futility.

However...

Nobody should comfortably sit there and point to our progress in the CCL as evidence of how much progress we have made overall. We had the stars align for us and we should be thankful for it, but if we don't objectively acknowledge that a lot of things went our way for that to happen, then we're blinded by the propaganda coming from TFC. I believe some refer to it as "kool aid".

We've heard many times on these boards and from Winter's own mouth that we have been "unlucky" and for the most part, I agree. I don't know if I have ever seen TFC hit as many posts as it has. But I think it's absolutely hypocritical to assign "bad luck" to a run of recent bad results but somehow the "good luck" we did enjoy last season is so easily dismissed.

sidvan
04-22-2012, 02:31 PM
I believe this team is better than the one we had at the end of the season last year. The difference in MLS is that the other teams in the league have made improvements since then to strengthen their respective squads. TFC haven't improved as much as the competition.

Parkdale
04-22-2012, 02:32 PM
But I think it's absolutely hypocritical to assign "bad luck" to a run of recent bad results but somehow the "good luck" we did enjoy last season is so easily dismissed.

that's a pretty valid point, and it applies to life outside football as well.

when something fails, it's easy to blame it on luck, but when there's success, people like to credit it to hard work and talent. It is slightly hypocritical, but it's always been that way.

ArmenJBX
04-22-2012, 06:00 PM
Can we we ask why you think so?

I went into the locker room after the defeat and everyone was saying they still believe in Winter and his message. When he walked in, the look on their faces didn't show a team that has lost faith in the manager the way they had under Preki.

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 06:47 PM
I can buy that.

ArmenJBX
04-22-2012, 06:55 PM
I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, ultimately, there is no evidence to prove that Aron Winter has lost the locker room. From my personal experience, they seem like they still believe in him, but if you have anything to the contrary I'm willing to take a look at it

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 07:24 PM
Hahaha...I'm not being sarcastic. When someone here reports something they personally see or hear themselves I give them the benefit of the doubt. Unlike others here...

ArmenJBX
04-22-2012, 07:59 PM
Oh, Roogs, we're like peas in a pod, you and I, even though we rarely see eye to eye! ;)