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View Full Version : Saturday, April 21, Chicago @ TFC 3:30 PM post-game rant



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Oldtimer
04-21-2012, 04:44 PM
OK, have a go. What's wrong with TFC. The players? The coach? The fans? The ownership? All of the above?

Richard
04-21-2012, 04:46 PM
Were a better team with Frings pushing the tempo going forward.

ag futbol
04-21-2012, 04:46 PM
I hate to say it, but the schedule doesn't get any easier from here. I think Winter's got 2-3 games tops to turn this thing around.

Soccerpro
04-21-2012, 04:46 PM
Que the Aaron Winter post game press conference "bad luck" comments.

TFC07
04-21-2012, 04:47 PM
Based on this game, I would say we played okay but we made couple mistakes and plus bad luck. But the team looked much better compare to last game. Play Frings in the mid for now on.

jloome
04-21-2012, 04:47 PM
It's hard. Just .. hard, after six seasons of this. Same issues of poor motivation, poor tactics.

I have to say I'm now weighing towards getting rid of Winter. Hard to stay neutral anymore; too many of the same mistakes, lack of prep, lack of tactical adaption.

Nerepis
04-21-2012, 04:48 PM
"The Fortress" officially becomes "The Abattoir" where hopes and dreams come to die.

iy12l
04-21-2012, 04:48 PM
2012 - The end of TFC

OgtheDim
04-21-2012, 04:49 PM
We need a CD.

We saw what can happen when we use Frings in the midfield.

Frankly, I'd rather have him in the midfield and have a bad player as the other CD.


Oh........and its still better a better team to watch then every other season we've had.

DoubleUp
04-21-2012, 04:50 PM
"The Fortress" officially becomes "The whorehouse" where everybody scores.

Edit:

TorontoGooner
04-21-2012, 04:50 PM
Fuck it. I'm gonna say it. We're all mugs. We've been fed this shite and been too scared to speak up for being seen as "non loyal" fans. Its awful. We are terrible, lack drive and care.

I for one won't be returning as long as this lasts. It costs an extortionate amount for absolutely no reward. If you want to, fine. Just realise you're feeding the MLSE and their distinct lack of management when it comes to any sports team.

My mate hit the nail on the head last year when he came over to visit. "You're a half-arsed team playing in front of a half full stadium, with half-talented players"

Kilgore Trout
04-21-2012, 04:51 PM
Winter is clueless and needs to go right now. Anyone who thinks that this squad coached by even Preki or Cummins wouldn't have had at least three points in six games has got to be a bit delusional about this league. This loss was on Winter. I don't think there were any particularly poor performances from TFC players today. Winter is Cruyff 2.0. It's clear he can't win to save his life. Hire anybody. Or, you know, Paul Mariner could probably do a good job. Just get Winter out of Toronto asap.

TorontoGooner
04-21-2012, 04:51 PM
OK, have a go. What's wrong with TFC. The players? The coach? The fans? The ownership? All of the above?

All of the above.

RedsYNWA
04-21-2012, 04:53 PM
Thank god the Euros are just around the corner.....perhaps TFC will manage a point by then

DoubleUp
04-21-2012, 04:54 PM
Fuck it. I'm gonna say it. We're all mugs. We've been fed this shite and been too scared to speak up for being seen as "non loyal" fans. Its awful. We are terrible, lack drive and care.

I for one won't be returning as long as this lasts. It costs an extortionate amount for absolutely no reward. If you want to, fine. Just realise you're feeding the MLSE and their distinct lack of management when it comes to any sports team.

My mate hit the nail on the head last year when he came over to visit. "You're a half-arsed team playing in front of a half full stadium, with half-talented players"

speak for yourself sir, I have been critical from the preseason. Its all on record!:D

69Chevy396
04-21-2012, 04:56 PM
We need a CD.

We saw what can happen when we use Frings in the midfield.

Frankly, I'd rather have him in the midfield and have a bad player as the other CD.


Oh........and its still better a better team to watch then every other season we've had.

Friends of mine spotted some mlse directors in their box today, they appeared completely oblivious to the game, hardly watching at all, behaving much the same way they do in the Rogers centre when the leafs are playing. Unless this team is sold to a true soccer fan with money to back up his interest, this cub is only going to get worse, not better. Yes, I know, they spent money on the academy. Yes that is a good thing. That too is an asset, they can sell it to Danny Dichio, whatever. Soccer in this city is a lousy as hockey now....entertaining? Sure. They played better today, but so did Chicago. This is still a recipe for a record low mls win column....real question: Will this team win a game before the summer?

Hugh Jazz
04-21-2012, 04:56 PM
Can't blame luck here. I think there's severe problems in the tactics and personnel. We can't start with a three man defence where two defenders are slow against forwards with serious speed. Secondly, while its good to see Johnson active in getting the ball, as soon as he leaves that target man position, our crosses are directed at guys like Plata, Lambe and Avila who aren't winning anything in the air. Haven't won anything in the air. I thought this was obvious during the game against Columbus.

bigredone
04-21-2012, 04:56 PM
What a lack of everything. Passion, unity, aiming at the net. Encouragement is important after missed opportunities. Except for Avila's spankin' of Frings' ass.

rocker
04-21-2012, 04:57 PM
I don't think there were any particularly poor performances from TFC players today. .

I don't think you can just absolve all the players of blame. Morgan was poor. Can't cross... can't pass... misjudges balls... I love his physicality and speed but he's very raw. Frings and Kocic made a massive blunder on the first goal (that had nothing to do with Winter).

I'm not a fan of the 3-at-the-back though. That needs to stop.

Redcoe15
04-21-2012, 04:57 PM
Snake bitten. That's all I can say.

How else can you describe falling behind after 25 FUCKING SECONDS INTO THE GAME, then after clawing back to take a lead for the first time this season give up a goal a minute later to lose the lead, then fall behind in the second half and finally throwing everything plus the kitchen sink at Chicago only to come up with nothing and finish with another loss to go 0-6, tied for the worst start in MLS history.

This club, and us supporters who follow this team, are fucking snake bitten. And we're dying from it.

The gods of soccer are using Toronto as their personal shitter.

Kilgore Trout
04-21-2012, 04:58 PM
We are terrible, lack drive and care.



Simply not true. TFC does not really play any worse than the average 5th or 4th place Eastern Conference team going forward. The players are trying. I don't know why everyone is denying that.

They cannot be put out with those formations and those tactics and expected to succeed. With Harden and Maund as CBs with significant playing minutes, you could blame the players for letting in those goals. This game, you have got to blame the boss. This match was a crystalline summary of everything that is wrong with Winter. He is utterly clueless about how to manage in this league.

I'll be glad if he proves me wrong. But seriously, just get someone with a clue to manage the team. There is no excuse. All over the MLS there are teams with squads that are no better than us that are taking reasonable numbers of points. It's because their management is not stubbornly ignorant about the league even after a full season in charge.

On the plus side, TFC is still only six points out of a playoff position.

Fire Winter and they might have a chance.

Dkolish3
04-21-2012, 04:58 PM
What a game. Who'd of thought that despite scoring two goals we'd still say that they suck at finishing. We had so many chances and it was bad luck and horrible mistakes by Kocic (who made several excellent saves) that cost us 3 points.

--Our defense is becoming much more solid but still makes stupid errors, like Cann passing it to Chicago just outside the box and Ecks running forward as part of 3 man line
--Johnson's vision sucks and his main tactic seems to be face the goal and then run at people
--Lambe great game, won't make me forget the other games where he was invisible
--Frings is a midfielder, and should be played as such
--De Guz what a beautiful ball to Johnson, however the Burgos Jr. seems to make amazing deliveries
--Entertaining game and TFC is getting better
--Avila has earned a lot more minutes in the last 2 games




Also in order to break the curse (of playing Team of the Week GKs) we need to sacrifice something.....................................perh aps our hope for a better tommorrow

ManUtd4ever
04-21-2012, 04:59 PM
Enough is enough. The team looks adequate moving forward, but it is also completely inept defensively, and Winter has not been able to make the necessary tactical adjustments despite a fairly talented roster at his disposal.

TFC will more than likely be road kill in Salt Lake City, and DeRo will probably tear us a new one in our back to back set against DC, so this despicable streak of futility is not going to improve any time soon.

Thomas Rongen has the credentials to step in as a capable replacement. If TFC has any hope of salvaging the season, the time to act is now.

dantdot
04-21-2012, 04:59 PM
I was initially on the fence about firing Winter thinking it would help little, but I think he's lost everyone at this point. Put Mariner in charge.

OgtheDim
04-21-2012, 05:00 PM
Winter is clueless and needs to go right now. Anyone who thinks that this squad coached by even Preki or Cummins wouldn't have had at least three points in six games has got to be a bit delusional about this league. ....

Meh.......comparing coaches from different seasons and with different players in a league that changes so much year to year is a mugs game.

The biggest tactical mistake today was not playing Frings as DM.

But if you think any of those goals can be blamed on tactics, you're watching this game through a particular lens.

Kilgore Trout
04-21-2012, 05:02 PM
I don't think you can just absolve all the players of blame. Morgan was poor. Can't cross... can't pass... misjudges balls... I love his physicality and speed but he's very raw. Frings and Kocic made a massive blunder on the first goal (that had nothing to do with Winter).

I'm not a fan of the 3-at-the-back though. That needs to stop.
Yes, Winter had nothing to do with the first goal. But again, that could and has happened to much bigger and better clubs.

Morgan probably had the worst match of all the players, Plata second worst. But neither was any poorer than you would see from one or two players on any MLS team during any match.

My point isn't that the team is perfect. My point is that the management is killing the chances of a team that, under a reasonable formation and tactical plan for the league, would have taken points today, and perhaps in some of the other matches, and would be either in a playoff spot at the moment or at least not as far away from one.

DoubleUp
04-21-2012, 05:02 PM
What a lack of everything. Passion, unity, aiming at the net. Encouragement is important after missed opportunities. Except for Avila's spankin' of Frings' ass.

You could tell he felt violated:rolleyes5:

Waggy
04-21-2012, 05:04 PM
Meh.......comparing coaches from different seasons and with different players in a league that changes so much year to year is a mugs game.

The biggest tactical mistake today was not playing Frings as DM.

But if you think any of those goals can be blamed on tactics, you're watching this game through a particular lens.

This

kaos197O
04-21-2012, 05:04 PM
This all falls on the non off season fulfillment of picking up those CD's that we were promised. Frings is and will be wasted until they do it. This is just killing me. We have some great talent and should be a solid competitor in the league but because of shitty management we sit at the bottom of the barrel yet again.

DangerRed
04-21-2012, 05:04 PM
Shh everyone. We're just 6 points out of the payoffs.. never mind this worst start in history business... Have another $10 beer and keep buying!

Dkolish3
04-21-2012, 05:09 PM
Shh everyone. We're just 6 points out of the payoffs.. never mind this worst start in history business... Have another $10 beer and keep buying!

Funny you should mention history since DC United went 0-6 one year then won the MLS Cup the year after, and Kansas City went 0-7 and the same thing happened

Don't Worry Be Happy

Strans
04-21-2012, 05:09 PM
Gareth Wheeler ‏ @gareth_wheeler (https://twitter.com/#%21/gareth_wheeler) Too many individuals behind the scenes at Toronto FC who continue to influence. Not sure why they remain involved. Worrisome. #TFC (https://twitter.com/#%21/search/%23TFC) #MLS (https://twitter.com/#%21/search/%23MLS)



Hasn't expanded on this yet, and I know its been hypothesized about here, but unnerving nonetheless...

DoubleUp
04-21-2012, 05:09 PM
winter: "better players"

I told you, nakajima-farran and florian kringe.

Kilgore Trout
04-21-2012, 05:11 PM
Meh.......comparing coaches from different seasons and with different players in a league that changes so much year to year is a mugs game.

The biggest tactical mistake today was not playing Frings as DM.

But if you think any of those goals can be blamed on tactics, you're watching this game through a particular lens.

Are you serious? Did you see the third goal? And you're neglecting the much more important: most of Chicago's threat and possession came from balls they took to a basically empty Toronto half because there was no real

and you're putting too much credence in the idea that the MLS is all that fluid tactically. It's no accident that people like Kinnear, Schmid, Yallop, Kreis, Vermes, Arena, and Nicol are/have had sustained and significant success.

Beach_Red
04-21-2012, 05:12 PM
The biggest tactical mistake today was not playing Frings as DM.

But if you think any of those goals can be blamed on tactics, you're watching this game through a particular lens.

Aren't these two points connected? You don't think Frings should have been in the position he was and that led to a goal - is that the tatics or the player?

Anyway, issues with this team seem to be more than a guy here or there. Winter may or may not be a good coach but there's nothing special about him and he's clearly not getting the most of this team. It may not be fair to fire him but it's probably not doing him any favours letting this go on much longer.

OgtheDim
04-21-2012, 05:12 PM
This all falls on the non off season fulfillment of picking up those CD's that we were promised. Frings is and will be wasted until they do it. This is just killing me. We have some great talent and should be a solid competitor in the league but because of shitty management we sit at the bottom of the barrel yet again.

:iagree:

Didn't somebody say it is the salary of a certain DP in his last year of his contract that hurt the most in getting a decent CD?

ManUtd4ever
04-21-2012, 05:12 PM
Meh.......comparing coaches from different seasons and with different players in a league that changes so much year to year is a mugs game.

The biggest tactical mistake today was not playing Frings as DM.

But if you think any of those goals can be blamed on tactics, you're watching this game through a particular lens.

With all due respect, the sentiments regarding Winter's lack of tactical acumen in MLS go well beyond the goals allowed today.

TFC has a roster that should theoretically be a mid table club at the very least, yet the club is 0-6 with a goal differential of minus 9. I repeat, MINUS 9 in six fucking games.

If tactics aren't the issue, then I guess Winter is right in that TFC must have the worst luck of any club in the league.

trane
04-21-2012, 05:13 PM
It's hard. Just .. hard, after six seasons of this. Same issues of poor motivation, poor tactics.

I have to say I'm now weighing towards getting rid of Winter. Hard to stay neutral anymore; too many of the same mistakes, lack of prep, lack of tactical adaption.


That is the thing I do believe that we have improved under the current regime, but 0-6 is 0-6, and as you say at the end of the day to much of the same in terms of problems.

trane
04-21-2012, 05:14 PM
With all due respect, the sentiments regarding Winter's tactical acumen in MLS go well beyond the goals allowed today.

TFC has a roster that should theoretically be a mid table club at the very least, yet the club is 0-6 with a goal differential of minus 9. I repeat, MINUS 9 in six fucking games.

If tactics aren't the issue, than I guess Winter is right in that TFC must have the worst luck of any club in the league.

I find it hard to accept luck as an excuse for ONE loss, but OK, but 6 it is nonsensical.

Beach_Red
04-21-2012, 05:17 PM
:iagree:

Didn't somebody say it is the salary of a certain DP in his last year of his contract that hurt the most in getting a decent CD?

We should stop using this as an excuse, they've had two off-seasons to buy out his contract and bring in someone else. And we're constantly told they aren't cheap, so they must want him.

ag futbol
04-21-2012, 05:17 PM
Hey something good happened today: TFC product Jordan Hamilton scored for the U17's and Canada tied WC champions mexico 1-1 in exhibition.

If it's anything like the last squad that went to the world cup, I'd pay to see them play.

trane
04-21-2012, 05:18 PM
^ How do you not fire winter at this point. Tied for the worst start of the season. I do not wish ill for him, I wish he would suceed but how do you not fire him at this point?

ag futbol
04-21-2012, 05:20 PM
We should stop using this as an excuse, they've had two off-seasons to buy out his contract and bring in someone else. And we're constantly told they aren't cheap, so they must want him.
Agreed, at the end of the day how many teams have an injured DP or a useless one to contend with? quite a few.

I guess FCD should have just rolled up the window and died after davide ferrara injured himself last year.

Kilgore Trout
04-21-2012, 05:21 PM
I find it hard to accept luck as an excuse for ONE loss, but OK, but 6 it is nonsensical.

Winter doesn't find it hard. He blames luck and he blames his players. It's all he's ever done.

Honestly, sorry if I'm annoying people with my ranting today, but I have given Winter more than a fair chance. How anyone can still blame the roster and not the absolutely incomprehensible selections, formations, and tactics is beyond my understanding.

trane
04-21-2012, 05:22 PM
^ At this pace we would not get 6 points by the end of the season. Maybe we can set a record for a perfect season. No wins no draws all season long.

mowe
04-21-2012, 05:26 PM
Eh, wasn't that bad of a game. Although defensive lapses continue to be the story at least the offense is encouraging. Frings looked good in a more advanced position, makes you wonder why he wasn't used there earlier. I thought Eckersley had a good solid game but Stinson was terrible, showed no reason to get another start.

Cann and Frings are too slow for one on one foot races which happen frequently with the gaps we leave in midfield. For the next match I would pair Cann up with either Henry or Emory and push Frings up the field where he can have a bigger impact on the game and try to counter RSL's dominating midfield.

Kilgore Trout
04-21-2012, 05:28 PM
you know, I hate myself. I'm rarely right about things. I screw up everything from relationships to sandwiches.

And years of self-loathing and distrust of my own thoughts has helped me know (so far with 100% accuracy) when I am in fact absolutely right. This is one of those times. Winter has to go within the week. Don't even let him take the team to Salt Lake. Send Mariner. Sign Dichio. Sign Rohan Ricketts as manager. FFS do something.

And if he stays, I really, really hope this is another in a long series of poor judgments on my part.

trane
04-21-2012, 05:28 PM
Mowe,

You realize this is not our first loss this season, and we conceded 3 goals at home?

This is the 7th loss in a row. That in football management terms means firing.

king dave
04-21-2012, 05:31 PM
Hey something good happened today: TFC product Jordan Hamilton scored for the U17's and Canada tied WC champions mexico 1-1 in exhibition.

If it's anything like the last squad that went to the world cup, I'd pay to see them play.
Yes, yes, yes.
AND Junior Hoillett scored a cracker for relegation zone Blackburn.
I really hope/prey this 21 year old chooses Canada.
Fingers crossedXXXXX
KD.

Mango Kid
04-21-2012, 05:32 PM
As John Lennon once said: "nobody told me there'd be days like these..."

king dave
04-21-2012, 05:33 PM
Mowe,

You realize this is not our first loss this season, and we conceded 3 goals at home?

This is the 7th loss in a row. That in football management terms means firing.
Life has given Toronto FC a tractor trailer of lemons.
What do you do kiddo?
KD.

trane
04-21-2012, 05:34 PM
^ If I was the king of supporters I would find the person resposible and let him have it. Or make lemonade.

Mango Kid
04-21-2012, 05:37 PM
Que the Aaron Winter post game press conference "bad luck" comments.

Based on the opening goal, he might well have something there.

[/sarcasm]

king dave
04-21-2012, 05:38 PM
Game was very entertaining. Much more than any I have seen so far.
K is our keeper. Done.
Plata, Lambe and Johnson. Done, done and done.
These kids appear to want to win.
And I will take that over the other relics on this squad.
KD.

ag futbol
04-21-2012, 05:38 PM
For Winter to talk about his players is a disgrace. They are his damn players!

Kilgore Trout
04-21-2012, 05:40 PM
^
He's never going to blame his arrogant self. He's from the Ajax system. He knows everything about football.

He does need better players, so they can maybe mask his total incompetence.

I never thought I'd find myself thinking Taylor Twellman was the most reasonable and concisely truthful commenter on TFC after the match.

adam1001
04-21-2012, 05:41 PM
I actually really liked cummins, and the players seemed to respect the guy.

Winter is clueless and needs to go right now. Anyone who thinks that this squad coached by even Preki or Cummins wouldn't have had at least three points in six games has got to be a bit delusional about this league. This loss was on Winter. I don't think there were any particularly poor performances from TFC players today. Winter is Cruyff 2.0. It's clear he can't win to save his life. Hire anybody. Or, you know, Paul Mariner could probably do a good job. Just get Winter out of Toronto asap.

trane
04-21-2012, 05:41 PM
^ What did he say? Links?

ag futbol
04-21-2012, 05:42 PM
^ I agree, I liked cummins too, although he wasn't perfect.

Considering he had absolutely NO POWER whatsoever, he did a reasonable job of keeping this nut-house on the rails.

Kilgore Trout
04-21-2012, 05:44 PM
^ I agree, I liked cummins too, although he wasn't perfect.

Considering he had absolutely NO POWER whatsoever, he did a reasonable job of keeping this nut-house on the rails.
I liked Cummins too, although he's nobody's first choice for TFC coach. But he at least was a competent MLS coach.

trane
04-21-2012, 05:45 PM
^ I agree, I liked cummins too, although he wasn't perfect.

Considering he had absolutely NO POWER whatsoever, he did a reasonable job of keeping this nut-house on the rails.

The funny thing is that I think that one of the best games that TFC played was under him, playing a 4-3-3 with Danny D as the CF. 1-0 win against Chivas.

billyfly
04-21-2012, 05:48 PM
Great idea for Tourism Toronto - ad campaign in other MLS cities to come here and see their team win.

king dave
04-21-2012, 05:48 PM
^Now you have awakened the beast my friend.
This fucking douche from Hollandia cannot, and I say CANNOT, speak english to save his fucking life. How can you communicate with anyone on the pitch when NOFUCKINGBODY understands what it is you are saying?
I know/believe in credentials. And this guy has 'em.
BUT!
If you are the guy in charge of a bunch of other guys and their performance level is based on your ability to communicate?
You better know how to fucking do it or fuck off!!!
KD.

TorontoGooner
04-21-2012, 05:49 PM
Shh everyone. We're just 6 points out of the payoffs.. never mind this worst start in history business... Have another $10 beer and keep buying!

This, this is the truest point. Let's bullshit ourselves into thinking we're "only" points from the playoffs. The truth is, we just lost our first fucking 6 games of the season and look three years behind most teams. Let's get real here. MLSE love us indulging in this optimism shite that keeps us paying $40 for a tickets and $12 for waterered piss tasting beer.

Don't just get rid of Winter. Clear out all the other tossers that take the money and run.

I went all the way to fucking Montreal and they couldn't bothered to clap our support.

Crap, I need a non watered down beer

trane
04-21-2012, 05:51 PM
^ I do not understand how people do not find it humliating to see the football team that represents this city be beaten on OUR HOME ground week after week, and way to fucking often for the past 6 years.

billyfly
04-21-2012, 05:52 PM
^ I do not understand how people do not find it humliating to see the football team that represents this city be beaten on OUR HOME ground week after week, and way to fucking often for the past 6 years.

Thats why we might as well bring in tourist dollars to our city. Lol

trane
04-21-2012, 05:54 PM
^ COme to Toronto, and shit all over our city, while we sing MLSE till I die.

ag futbol
04-21-2012, 05:54 PM
The funny thing is that I think that one of the best games that TFC played was under him, playing a 4-3-3 with Danny D as the CF. 1-0 win against Chivas.
And strange enough, it wasn't a bad decision as it worked with the odd Mo Johnston-zed assortment of players he was givien. Showed some creativity with what he was doing.

Beach_Red
04-21-2012, 05:55 PM
Thats why we might as well bring in tourist dollars to our city. Lol

Sure, other teams could include their games in Toronto in their season ticket packages.

trane
04-21-2012, 05:55 PM
^ Yeah, he adapted his tactics to the opponent and the players he had. IMAGINE THAT?

trane
04-21-2012, 05:56 PM
Sure, other teams could include their games in Toronto in their season ticket packages.


HAHAHAHAHHAHA, with the tag "GUARANTEED WIN NIGHT"

billyfly
04-21-2012, 05:57 PM
Sure, other teams could include their games in Toronto in their season ticket packages.

Brillant. What a marketing team we are. MLSE come hire us.

trane
04-21-2012, 06:00 PM
We should stop calling them the Reds, the Reds ( LFC and MANU have great winning histories) WE SHUOLD CALL THEM THE GENERALS, the part of the globetrotters being any team that plays us.

trane
04-21-2012, 06:03 PM
I say it is time to tear down the supporters gate. Billyfly?

ManUtd4ever
04-21-2012, 06:05 PM
^ I do not understand how people do not find it humliating to see the football team that represents this city be beaten on OUR HOME ground week after week, and way to fucking often for the past 6 years.

At least in the first 4 years, TFC had a respectable record at BMO Field. The current state of affairs is nothing short of a fucking disgrace to all the resilient supporters of TFC.

trane
04-21-2012, 06:08 PM
^ I would not have complained in the first 4 years in that even thought we did not get all the points we shuold have out of our home games, we thought hard and gave them hell.

billyfly
04-21-2012, 06:08 PM
Torn down long ago Trane. Torn down long ago.

Time to retreat to my Dad's team, Sporting Portugal. Forca SCP.

adam1001
04-21-2012, 06:09 PM
I was just thinking the same. Remember when we used to call BMO "the fortress"? Oh, the good old days.

At least in the first 4 years, TFC had a respectable record at BMO Field. The current state of affairs is nothing short of a fucking disgrace to all the resilient supporters of TFC.

trane
04-21-2012, 06:11 PM
Torn down long ago Trane. Torn down long ago.

Time to retreat to my Dad's team, Sporting Portugal. Forca SCP.

AC Milan has kept me going, otherwise I would have been in a deep depression.

billyfly
04-21-2012, 06:15 PM
And now I say to all my fellow TFCers that make fun of me for being a Leaf fan:


FUCK YOU. LOL....

__wowza
04-21-2012, 06:18 PM
AC Milan has kept me going, otherwise I would have been in a deep depression.

spurs fan here, lost to QPR today putting us outt've top four. now this.

Roogsy
04-21-2012, 06:19 PM
^ I do not understand how people do not find it humliating to see the football team that represents this city be beaten on OUR HOME ground week after week, and way to fucking often for the past 6 years.

Amen.

There's no pride. Just sheepish submission to accept whatever crumbs are thrown our way. That's why championships don't belong in this city.

maxpower
04-21-2012, 06:19 PM
A buddy of mine said it best :Toronto FC, turning something into nothing since 2007.

Anyone up for some Blackburn-esque protests!

trane
04-21-2012, 06:21 PM
Amen.

There's no pride. Just sheepish submission to accept whatever crumbs are thrown our way. That's why championships don't belong in this city.

I wish this were not true. But it is.

asterix606
04-21-2012, 06:23 PM
OK, have a go. What's wrong with TFC. The players? The coach? The fans? The ownership? All of the above?

You forgot one! Trading DeRo and getting nothing in exchange. It killed TFC progression, and just made it worst.

Since DeRo left: 13.1% win percentage in past 38 TFC regular season games. -32 goal average

With Dero: 32.0% win percentage in his last 38 TFC regular season games. -11 goal average

trane
04-21-2012, 06:23 PM
maxpower,


Again too true. TFC has been a lesson in how to destroy a dream.

trane
04-21-2012, 06:24 PM
You forgot one! Trading DeRo and getting nothing in exchange. It killed TFC progression, and just made it worst.

Since DeRo left: 13.1% win percentage in past 38 regular season games. -32 goal average

With Dero: 32.0% win percentage in his last 38 regular season games. -11 goal average

Why do you want to do this to Roogsy? Is he not in enough pain?

narduch
04-21-2012, 06:24 PM
Anyone see the 'announced' attendance numbers? Looked pretty bad on TV but I'm sure it was listed as over 18,000 as usual.

Edit: never mind, found it: 19,255. LOL! More than last week. Not sure what they are trying to prove with that though. People aren't stupid.

billyfly
04-21-2012, 06:28 PM
At work my Director had 8tkts and no one wanted them.

narduch
04-21-2012, 06:31 PM
At work my Director had 8tkts and no one wanted them.

Its like late-90's until recently for Jays tickets.

I remember how smug TFC fans were in 2007/2008 on how the party would go on forever. That soccer fans were different...

Roogsy
04-21-2012, 06:33 PM
Why do you want to do this to Roogsy? Is he not in enough pain?

Barcelona did lose today. I am in a bad mood.

I care more about losing La Liga to friggin' Madrid than I do this loss. We're now used to this incompetence from TFC.

At 0-5 TFC was a longshot to make the playoffs. But if we lose to RSL next not only are playoffs almost an impossibility (April isn't even over!), I believe TFC may yet own yet another dubious MLS record. How ANY of this can be an indication of the "right direction" this team is supposedly on has yet to be explained to me and dammit I want a Winter apologist to stand up and finally explain to all of us doubters how this futility actually helps us or the is part of the plan!

ag futbol
04-21-2012, 06:35 PM
Why do you want to do this to Roogsy? Is he not in enough pain?
Roogsy is using socks again! :P

bigbamboom
04-21-2012, 06:36 PM
Rebuild...I hate to say it...but we suck so bad, its time to tear it up and start fresh.

trane
04-21-2012, 06:40 PM
Barcelona did lose today. I am in a bad mood.

I care more about losing La Liga to friggin' Madrid than I do this loss. We're now used to this incompetence from TFC.

At 0-5 TFC was a longshot to make the playoffs. But if we lose to RSL next not only are playoffs almost an impossibility (April isn't even over!), I believe TFC may yet own yet another dubious MLS record. How ANY of this can be an indication of the "right direction" this team is supposedly on has yet to be explained to me and dammit I want a Winter apologist to stand up and finally explain to all of us doubters how this futility actually helps us or the is part of the plan!

I am waiting for the appologist to start comming out in force. The kool aid is mighty strong.

Furtado91
04-21-2012, 06:47 PM
I love the team and Im proud to be from this great city, But something seriously has to change. I propose we start making banners that explain our dissapointment. We cannot stand for this shotty product. I would start making banners trying to tell MLSE to smarten the fuck up or better yet sell it to someone who wants to make a difference. Looking at MLSES record, They have 3 teams and cannot even make it to the playoffs in their respective sports. I do Blame MLSE because they chose the management for each sports team, and look where its getting us. Id rather see a different entity own TFC if it meant going through 3 years of not making the playoffs but making steady progress and the 4th year making it. thats what the key point is PROGRESS. which we have yet to see these last 2 seasons not counting the miracle that was the CCL.

We need to stop taking whatever breadcrumbs these people throw to us and start showing them how we feel. just my opinion.

and with people saying that MLSE wants us to win otherwise they lose money. Every year the Maple Leafs season tickets go up and up and up. They have not seen playoff action in over 7 years, MLSE has us by the balls, and they know it. if they act sincere people will force their anger upon Aron Winter and not MLSe, because they will say oh we care about toronto.

The Reason the Blue jays are slowly starting to turn things around is because they seem to have the backing behind them (I hate rogers, but they seem to slowly understand the game) but Ive seen more butts in those seats this season than i Have in a long long time.

trane
04-21-2012, 06:48 PM
^ agreed.

TheWolf
04-21-2012, 06:54 PM
I had 2 tickets today and chose to work for 8 hours instead of going to this garbage. Glad I made the right call.

Richard
04-21-2012, 06:55 PM
I love the team and Im proud to be from this great city, But something seriously has to change. I propose we start making banners that explain our dissapointment. We cannot stand for this shotty product. I would start making banners trying to tell MLSE to smarten the fuck up or better yet sell it to someone who wants to make a difference. Looking at MLSES record, They have 3 teams and cannot even make it to the playoffs in their respective sports. I do Blame MLSE because they chose the management for each sports team, and look where its getting us. Id rather see a different entity own TFC if it meant going through 3 years of not making the playoffs but making steady progress and the 4th year making it. thats what the key point is PROGRESS. which we have yet to see these last 2 seasons not counting the miracle that was the CCL.

We need to stop taking whatever breadcrumbs these people throw to us and start showing them how we feel. just my opinion.

If your going to protest, your message better be about more than your displeasure with current managment but with Anselmi and the executives who are not held acountable for anything. As long as the Leafs make money, results wont matter(Raptors,TFC, Leafs). They will be fired once the teams dont make money which is fucking sad, i would be embarrassed if i was them.

123 elite
04-21-2012, 06:56 PM
Another horeses arse of a performance. IS Firngs at the back, in the middle or up front. Is it 3 at the back or 4 ? Is Cann a central defender or a left back. Does Jdg need to come on and run side ways all the time? Winter is done. He has no clue. Its as i have always said... no system. Never has been. Any cheerleaders got anything to say now? Its a f** ing joke. I'm actually staring to enjoy how shit it is because for me watching football for 35 years this is without doubt the worst i have ever seen any team play. Thats something to admire.

Rene Kingsriver
04-21-2012, 06:58 PM
You just know its going to be De Ro who returns and hammers the final nail in Winters coffin on May 2nd

Richard
04-21-2012, 07:04 PM
You just know its going to be De Ro who returns and hammers the final nail in Winters coffin on May 2nd

Yeh and imagine the rumours are true that Anselmi said to not give him(Dero) a new contract.

gomesv
04-21-2012, 07:05 PM
Another horeses arse of a performance. IS Firngs at the back, in the middle or up front. Is it 3 at the back or 4 ? Is Cann a central defender or a left back. Does Jdg need to come on and run side ways all the time? Winter is done. He has no clue. Its as i have always said... no system. Never has been. Any cheerleaders got anything to say now? Its a f** ing joke. I'm actually staring to enjoy how shit it is because for me watching football for 35 years this is without doubt the worst i have ever seen any team play. Thats something to admire.


Bang on....took the words right out of my mouth.....the guy has no clue and I mean no fuckin clue...its unbelievable we have to put up with this SHIT

Furtado91
04-21-2012, 07:07 PM
If your going to protest, your message better be about more than your displeasure with current managment but with Anselmi and the executives who are not held acountable for anything. As long as the Leafs make money, results wont matter(Raptors,TFC, Leafs). They will be fired once the teams dont make money which is fucking sad, i would be embarrassed if i was them.


I would voice my displeasure with anyone that is somewhat involved in the upper management. you name the people and they would be on a banner. I love this city and I dont want to see this city be laughed at all day and insulted. we need something. and this should be it. we have many members from different backgrounds and different teams they support from their home country or familys background. I could and start yapping about america vs europe krap. regardless of where you hail from, its been common knowledge they if your not happy with something or someone say something. But one person canot make a difference. we need to do this together as we all want the same for this team, and that's Progress and eventually a trophy.

We show moments of brilliance, but then we see this. We need consistency. yes Im angry because of this but its more just sad and tired of beind a team that is easy to get points from. banners is an innocent attempt and we escalate from there based on results. if we do this though we need people to be faithful to the idea and be behind it 100%. otherwise the message is lost.

billyfly
04-21-2012, 07:08 PM
Lets go Marlies.

Pookie
04-21-2012, 07:09 PM
Enough is enough. The team looks adequate moving forward, but it is also completely inept defensively, and Winter has not been able to make the necessary tactical adjustments despite a fairly talented roster at his disposal.

TFC will more than likely be road kill in Salt Lake City, and DeRo will probably tear us a new one in our back to back set against DC, so this despicable streak of futility is not going to improve any time soon.

Thomas Rongen has the credentials to step in as a capable replacement. If TFC has any hope of salvaging the season, the time to act is now.

I don't disagree. Besides, I hear that DeRo is making some pretty good bicycle passes lately. ;)

I said my piece on Winter in the coaching thread. Ok with a change provided Anselmi goes first. Otherwise, it's the same captain of a directionless ship overseeing yet another roll of the dice on a coach.

Amazed at the attendance announcement. 19,000. Must be counting TFC and Marlies fans as the games were played on the same property.

TFC Cityboy
04-21-2012, 07:09 PM
All I can say is my day would have been utter shite if it not been for my fellow 115ers. At 0-1 we all ran thru our repetoire of retro TFC songs longing for the, erm, glory days of just misisng the playoffs.

I don't know what to say. I've always backed "the project" but wtf was that today? Tactics? More like tictacs, ffs.

Frings started at CB, moves to m/f (fair enough) and ends up at centre forward?

Ryan Johnson (who was surely meant to be CF with Plata and Lambe wide) played so fucking wide all game he could have had a pint in the stands, yet how often did he punt balls into the box where HE should have been.

Our midfield is absolutely fucking useless no matter which warm body plays. The fact that de guzman as DP is not deemed worthy of a starting postion in this dreadful side tells you how poorly this club has been managed over the years.

I like Winter- met the man and I applaud the direction of the club (academy/ long term stuff) but if this continues there will no point as there will nobody left buying tickets to watch this shit.

I love this club, I love my matchdays and I will never stop supporting the club / going to every home game, but I am beginning to fear for the very existence of this club if the rot doesn't stop soon.
Blame the players, coaches , owners, whatever, this club is fucked up.

Rene Kingsriver
04-21-2012, 07:11 PM
We all dream of a team of Jimmy Bs

TFC Cityboy
04-21-2012, 07:12 PM
I don't disagree. Besides, I hear that DeRo is making some pretty good bicycle passes lately. ;)

I said my piece on Winter in the coaching thread. Ok with a change provided Anselmi goes first. Otherwise, it's the same captain of a directionless ship overseeing yet another roll of the dice on a coach.

Amazed at the attendance announcement. 19,000. Must be counting TFC and Marlies fans as the games were played on the same property.

Anselmi would be first up against the wall for me. Clueless and in charge of the club - it all starts at the top. What football club appoints a consultant to appoint a coaching staff? A hockey guy who knows fuck all about the the game.

billyfly
04-21-2012, 07:15 PM
Anslemi doesn't know hockey. He's a food and beverage guy.

billyfly
04-21-2012, 07:16 PM
Losing not only killed TFC I think it killed RPB.

adam1001
04-21-2012, 07:24 PM
I hope he does. At least then will people will realize that trading him for jack sh*t was the worst move in club history.

You just know its going to be De Ro who returns and hammers the final nail in Winters coffin on May 2nd

gomesv
04-21-2012, 07:29 PM
Barcelona did lose today. I am in a bad mood.


How about a heads up next time before this announcement ( ever hear of a PVR)g:D

Pookie
04-21-2012, 07:40 PM
Hasn't expanded on this yet, and I know its been hypothesized about here, but unnerving nonetheless...

That Wheeler tweet is indeed worrisome. And even if there isn't much to it, the fact remains that Anselmi oversees the team. Change has to start there. The coach can follow.

scooterTFC
04-21-2012, 07:42 PM
With new the new ownership comes new ways to protest. Fans of all 3 MLSE teams should boycott Rogers and Bell products until we get a winning team. Buy Shaw direct for TV, use Telus for your mobile phone, and get your internet from somebody else. It's the "I hate MLSE telecom bundle".

kodiakTFC
04-21-2012, 07:43 PM
Champions League Semi Finals.. 0-6 in the league. How the hell did that happen?

CountryoverClub
04-21-2012, 07:46 PM
Yet another game filled with reoccurring errors. Winter and Co. are going to have to make some moves before they are moved.....atleast WCQ will be at BMO this summer for some quality football to support.

Roogsy
04-21-2012, 07:48 PM
This is a chicken vs the egg problem. Yes Anselmi should go but it's foolish not to address one problem unless both go. Are we to keep underperforming if Anselmi never leaves? Fix the problems you can, not the ones out of your control. Besides if Anselmi has to admit failure by firing his latest selection for coach it only helps the case of new ownership to get rid of him. Having to get rid of Winter may be the exactly what is needed to get rid of Uncle Tom.

ArmenJBX
04-21-2012, 07:48 PM
Sigh... :(

Not sure how it could get much worse, to be honest. Things are brutal at this point, locker room was really negative :(

Oldtimer
04-21-2012, 07:56 PM
Sure, other teams could include their games in Toronto in their season ticket packages.

Great idea, since there won't be any Torontonians attending next year. :D

iy12l
04-21-2012, 07:58 PM
Oh well at least Madrid won today with Ronaldo scoring the winner in front of those inbred barca fans.

ryan
04-21-2012, 08:00 PM
Champions League Semi Finals.. 0-6 in the league. How the hell did that happen?

We almost went to the Club World Cup. Think about that.




Oh did anyone else get this email just now...?

http://www.virtualsportsdaily.com/forum/images/tgt/kg/apology.png

ensco
04-21-2012, 08:02 PM
^What did Winter say about his job security post game? Behind the scenes at TFC must be incredibly tense right now. Expect we'll be hearing about fistfights between Winter and Mariner or something in due course. Odds of Winter quitting rising rapidly now.

I feel sorry for Reggie Lambe. Can't enjoy what should have been a special day for him. What a goal.

Oldtimer
04-21-2012, 08:05 PM
That Wheeler tweet is indeed worrisome. And even if there isn't much to it, the fact remains that Anselmi oversees the team. Change has to start there. The coach can follow.

It's not just Anselmi.

http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/toronto/files/Cochrane140.jpg

ryan
04-21-2012, 08:06 PM
I feel sorry for Reggie Lambe. Can't enjoy what should have been a special day for him. What a goal.

I agree. I've not been impressed with him at all, but he was mostly quality today. What a strike that was, many good runs and interaction with his teammates. I may have been wrong about him if he can continue to perform like that

Beach_Red
04-21-2012, 08:12 PM
It's not just Anselmi.

http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/toronto/files/Cochrane140.jpg


No, it's the whole corporate structure. It's designed for the senior execs to always have someone else to blame and to still have their jobs. We've been saying from the beginning the team has needed a president and a strong front office - instead what we've always had is inexperienced guys worrying more about currying favour with their bosses in a divided front office. It's a situation where the ones best at office politics are the ones who survive and prosper.

It's not that unusual really, lots of companies in this city operate this way.

OgtheDim
04-21-2012, 08:21 PM
With all due respect, the sentiments regarding Winter's lack of tactical acumen in MLS go well beyond the goals allowed today.

TFC has a roster that should theoretically be a mid table club at the very least, yet the club is 0-6 with a goal differential of minus 9. I repeat, MINUS 9 in six fucking games.

If tactics aren't the issue, then I guess Winter is right in that TFC must have the worst luck of any club in the league.

EXCEPT, when you sit on here and watch the comments during a game, the second thing people yell and scream after a goal is now "WINTER's TACTICS SUCK!!!!" The goals don't relate to that but its what people yell. Thankfully, there was no "Bring back DeRo" but, hey, now we're replacing it with a mind numbing "Preki was better" conversation which given that the variables involved in winning right now in the MLS are vastly different then when he was here is pointless.


Tactics does not equal player personnel issues. We have no speed at the back. We lack MLS experience. Our forwards are trying too hard. We have one decent CD. We have unfit players. We have brought in several mistakes, again. We seem to be unable to maintain a lineup from game to game. Yes, a lot down to managing. BUT, people on here moan constantly about tactics when managing for success is FAR more then that. Goals are scored based on many things - those goals were scored because of a brain fart combination by two of what were until today our most reliables, a blown coverage, and a burst of pure speed.

Blame Winter's tactics for many things. But this knee jerk reaction lets both Mariner and players who should be taking responsibility off the hook.

Roogsy
04-21-2012, 08:27 PM
EXCEPT, when you sit on here and watch the comments during a game, the second thing people yell and scream after a goal is now "WINTER's TACTICS SUCK!!!!" The goals don't relate to that but its what people yell. Thankfully, there was no "Bring back DeRo" but, hey, now we're replacing it with a mind numbing "Preki was better" conversation which given that the variables involved in winning right now in the MLS are vastly different then when he was here is pointless.


Tactics does not equal player personnel issues. We have no speed at the back. We lack MLS experience. Our forwards are trying too hard. We have one decent CD. We have unfit players. We have brought in several mistakes, again. We seem to be unable to maintain a lineup from game to game. Yes, a lot down to managing. BUT, people on here moan constantly about tactics when managing for success is FAR more then that. Goals are scored based on many things - those goals were scored because of a brain fart combination by two of what were until today our most reliables, a blown coverage, and a burst of pure speed.

Blame Winter's tactics for many things. But this knee jerk reaction lets both Mariner and players who should be taking responsibility off the hook.

So what's your point? That we have the wrong players?

Or are the players fine but they're not getting what they need from their manager? Which is more likely?

I look down on that roster and I agree with most observers and players...they are better than their record shows. So who is responsible for not getting the most out of these players? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Pookie
04-21-2012, 08:31 PM
This is a chicken vs the egg problem. Yes Anselmi should go but it's foolish not to address one problem unless both go. Are we to keep underperforming if Anselmi never leaves? Fix the problems you can, not the ones out of your control. Besides if Anselmi has to admit failure by firing his latest selection for coach it only helps the case of new ownership to get rid of him. Having to get rid of Winter may be the exactly what is needed to get rid of Uncle Tom.

Politics is a bitch and that could be the way it has to play out.

That said, if we fire the coach then Anselmi, does the new guy not want his own coach?

Therefore, the coach count could reach 8 before next season. I need a beer.

nfitz
04-21-2012, 08:33 PM
Have another $10 beer and keep buying!Do you really only tip 25¢?

UltraSuperMegaMo
04-21-2012, 09:12 PM
Do you really only tip 25¢?

Super OT, but why do people tip the beer guys (and gals), but not the other vendors. Where does this come from? Is it harder to sell beer than cola?

AmherstNY_TFC
04-21-2012, 09:15 PM
None of those goals should have gone in. Whatever praise you want to heap on Lambe for scoring 2 goals, I would quote The Woflman from Pulp Fiction: "Let's not all start sucking each others' dicks just yet." Lambe let his man go by for the tying goal.

The third goal was a comedy of errors. For whatever reason, they cannot defend.

I couldn't decide which was more painful to watch, Preki and his thug ball, or this lot.

I agree with Roogsy that the roster has talent. So, I think it comes down to management. I think it's a combination of Winter's inexperience in this league and as a first team manager, and also the power structure of the club. I am confused as to who is in charge. But, whoever that is, that guy, or guys, needs to go in the long run. In the short run, Winter's position has become untenable. I'll be surprised if he is employed come Monday.

asterix606
04-21-2012, 09:38 PM
Looking at the numbers, this season might already be finished.

Our history on the road is terrible! And our history of winning at home has been on a decline since 2009, when it hit a peak.

HOME GAMES

2007 5-7-3 = 33% wins
2008 6-2-7 = 40% wins
2009 8-3-4 = 53% wins
2010 6-3-6 = 40% wins
2011 5-4-8 = 29% wins
2012 0-4-0 = 0% wins (as of today)

Question: Why is TFC on a continual decline in Home wins since 2009. We should have been able to maintain a 50% win at home. The fans there and very supportive!


AWAY GAMES

In our history we are 10-50-19 on the road. Thats about 12% wins on the road!

Last season we went 1-9-7 on the road. Thats only 5% wins!

I obviously do not see the road games as being our saviour this season, or our home game!


SCARY!!!

[NBF]
04-21-2012, 09:40 PM
EXCEPT, when you sit on here and watch the comments during a game, the second thing people yell and scream after a goal is now "WINTER's TACTICS SUCK!!!!" The goals don't relate to that but its what people yell. Thankfully, there was no "Bring back DeRo" but, hey, now we're replacing it with a mind numbing "Preki was better" conversation which given that the variables involved in winning right now in the MLS are vastly different then when he was here is pointless.

Tactics does not equal player personnel issues. We have no speed at the back. We lack MLS experience. Our forwards are trying too hard. We have one decent CD. We have unfit players. We have brought in several mistakes, again. We seem to be unable to maintain a lineup from game to game. Yes, a lot down to managing. BUT, people on here moan constantly about tactics when managing for success is FAR more then that. Goals are scored based on many things - those goals were scored because of a brain fart combination by two of what were until today our most reliables, a blown coverage, and a burst of pure speed.

Blame Winter's tactics for many things. But this knee jerk reaction lets both Mariner and players who should be taking responsibility off the hook.


I think that alot of the underlined is true about this team. We have seen the players fitness levels decline after Paul Winsper left to work for NIKE. If by the only decent Centre Back you mean Aceval than I would agree, but this team should of never have dumped the salaries of Andy Iro or Marosevic. They were good depth players and hard working. Iro IMO would do a much better job than Harden any day.

Right now the team needs approximately 2 Centre Backs and the two that I think are available would be Iro and Attakora.

[NBF]
04-21-2012, 09:42 PM
We almost went to the Club World Cup. Think about that.




Oh did anyone else get this email just now...?

http://www.virtualsportsdaily.com/forum/images/tgt/kg/apology.png

It would be nice if someone could decipher what it says.

Lennon
04-21-2012, 09:43 PM
This team is starting to remind of Chelsea under Villas-Boas earlier this season. He's forcing a system on players that are clearly not capable of executing it ..
What was he thinking pressing so far up the pitch against a team with 2 of the fastest players in the MLS? Despite our good start to the 2nd half I knew that we were going to get burned, sooner or later.

billyfly
04-21-2012, 09:45 PM
I jinxed us when I starting singing 3-2, we're gonna lose 3-2' just after TFC made it 2-1.

[NBF]
04-21-2012, 09:46 PM
This team is starting to remind of Chelsea under Villas-Boas earlier this season. He's forcing a system on players that are clearly not capable of executing it ..
What was he thinking pressing so far up the pitch against a team with 2 of the fastest players in the MLS? Despite our good start to the 2nd half I knew that we were going to get burned, sooner or later.

Chelsea? This is Arsenal, if only we had few more central midfielders and two healthy centre backs we would be ok. Arsene Wenger didn't have to wait until January to make the transfer moves. He was smart enough to get them near the transfer deadline.

cmonyoureds
04-21-2012, 09:51 PM
;1476943']It would be nice if someone could decipher what it says.

It says "we froze prices this year, so we're allowed to increase next year 'cause we did good in the champions tournament of champions teams thingey"

ManUtd4ever
04-21-2012, 09:58 PM
I absolutely agree with the consensus that the current roster has enough talent to compete at a far greater level than what the team has shown thus far.

I don't want the management team or the roster torn down and rebuilt from scratch. On the contrary, I believe a competent manager in place of Winter can lead this group to achieve a modicum of success, based on the collective skillset that our current players have already demonstrated.

This team lacks on field direction, not ability.

billyfly
04-21-2012, 10:01 PM
What's important to note everyone is that TFC are 0-6 and these boards are pretty much barren of activity.

Gone are the days of immense outrage.

asterix606
04-21-2012, 10:05 PM
Looking at the numbers, this season might already be finished.

Our history on the road is terrible! And our history of winning at home has been on a decline since 2009, when it hit a peak.

HOME GAMES

2007 5-7-3 = 33% wins
2008 6-2-7 = 40% wins
2009 8-3-4 = 53% wins
2010 6-3-6 = 40% wins
2011 5-4-8 = 29% wins
2012 0-4-0 = 0% wins (as of today)

Question: Why is TFC on a continual decline in Home wins since 2009. We should have been able to maintain a 50% win at home. The fans there and very supportive!


AWAY GAMES

In our history we are 10-50-19 on the road. Thats about 12% wins on the road!

Last season we went 1-9-7 on the road. Thats only 5% wins!

I obviously do not see the road games as being our saviour this season, or our home game!


SCARY!!!


If you look at the number of games at home and on the road and analyse our historical results: You get this....

Home games: 4.81 wins (out of 13 games left) = 14.43 points
Away games: 1.80 wins (out of 15 games left) = 5.4 points

Home games: 4.42 ties (out of 13 games left) = 4.42 points
Away games: 3.6 ties (out of 15 games left) = 3.60 points


History would give TFC a total of 27.85 points at the end of this season!

Whoop
04-21-2012, 10:06 PM
The apathy is starting to set in...

So should we still expand BMO?

billyfly
04-21-2012, 10:09 PM
Good Luck now. No Gate either I am afraid.

narduch
04-21-2012, 10:10 PM
The apathy is starting to set in...

So should we still expand BMO?

They are probably regretting that north stand these days.

I think TFC has had one real sell out since they built the north stand (the LA regular season game last year).

Whoop
04-21-2012, 10:16 PM
I thought the North stand was built to keep the Argos out?

Now this is Toronto Rock, soccer style.

billyfly
04-21-2012, 10:17 PM
It's the Toronto Rock, soccer style.

Without the championships.

scooter
04-21-2012, 10:18 PM
damn straight we should expand and put a roof on too
team is playing better it was a tough loss today but the lads know why they lost and can improve we are just on the cusp stop this negative shite

and i know i'm on the message boards so what should i expect

but if you dont want to support our team maybe you should not visit rpb site period

jabbronies
04-21-2012, 10:33 PM
Can someone explain how Torsten Frings giving up the ball 26 seconds into the game and then Kocic coming waaaay out his area to get deeked out and scored on Winter's fault? Without those two fuck ups we win 2-1!

What about Plata's lack of creativity? or the fact that at one point in the second half when Eckersley was running around like a chicken with his head cut off all over the pitch?

At what point do the players count for the fault of the loss instead of the entire blame being put on the manager?

Why are we not hearing from Mariner? He is the key to this franchises success in the MLS! We haven't heard a peep from him!

Lots of blame to be pointed a lot of places.

Juanito
04-21-2012, 10:57 PM
Even in my worst nightmares, I wouldn't have thought we would start 0-6.

The best I can come up with is "square pegs, round holes". Winter wants these guys playing a 4-3-3 and to me, it's obvious they aren't getting it. Either we don't have the talent to play it, or the coach isn't teaching it correctly, but to me, this is the source of our problems.

It's time to start playing to the player's strength, and not shove tactics they are not accustomed to play down their throats.

As far as Winter is concerned, he wanted us to not judge him in hios first year and I think most of us gave him a free pass. The euphoria of the CCL is behind us, and we are sitting in the basement after six matches with no points. How can you not point the finger at Winter? What does he have to do? This has been a disaster.

I'm not sure firing will do much at this point, this club has made a mess of things, and they need to fix things and fast, before the apathy turns ugly.

Roogsy
04-21-2012, 11:08 PM
I'm not sure if there is an MLS thread this week but the Whitecaps just won their game to go 3-2-2, 11 points clear of us. A team in its 2nd year for those who think you need 3 years to build.

With Chicago's win they leap into the last playoff spot, 8 points clear of us WITH a game in hand (for those pointing out we were only 6 points out). We are now reaching a point where we will have to outright win 1 out of every 2 games to make the playoffs.

'Dems the numbers folks...

Whoop
04-21-2012, 11:09 PM
Maybe it was Teitur Tots fault.

Juanito
04-21-2012, 11:20 PM
Three-year plan my left ass cheek. If I hear that again, I'm going to blow a gasket. In MLS you can go from "shite to right" in a single season. This team just can't figure it out.

Roogsy
04-21-2012, 11:23 PM
Is that the ass cheek with the tattoo? :p

Juanito
04-21-2012, 11:29 PM
^^

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/14774283.jpg

Shakes McQueen
04-21-2012, 11:33 PM
I am waiting for the appologist to start comming out in force. The kool aid is mighty strong.

Unnecessary. This is the kind of post that starts a pointless argument.

If you want to challenge a specific person's argument, then do so. Intentionally non-specific condescension about "apologists" and "kool aid" is not required.

- Scott

mclaren
04-21-2012, 11:41 PM
They say that the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Maybe we should try doing the one thing we haven't yet - hiring a PROVEN MLS coach who has had success in this league before. How much can we pay to tempt Sigi?

TFC07
04-21-2012, 11:42 PM
I am not sure if someone here mention this or not, but Dunfield played well today.

TFC07
04-21-2012, 11:43 PM
They say that the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Maybe we should try doing the one thing we haven't yet - hiring a PROVEN MLS coach who has had success in this league before. How much can we pay to tempt Sigi?

Didn't TFC hire Perki? He was proven MLS coach.

mclaren
04-21-2012, 11:48 PM
Didn't TFC hire Perki? He was proven MLS coach.
Success? Apparently he left Chivas by mutual consent because he failed to make progress to latter stages of MLS playoffs. I'm talking about a bona-fide, winning MLS coach.

Juanito
04-21-2012, 11:49 PM
^^

The problem we now face is that no respectable coach is going o want to come to the circus that is TFC.

ryan
04-21-2012, 11:50 PM
;1476943']It would be nice if someone could decipher what it says.

I just took the Leafs apology and made obvious name changes to re-word it for TFC. Didn't expect it would have needed to be read, just a joke gone wrong I guess...

TFC07
04-21-2012, 11:51 PM
Success? Apparently he left Chivas by mutual consent because he failed to make progress to latter stages of MLS playoffs. I'm talking about a bona-fide, winning MLS coach.

How many winning MLS coaches with winning record out there right now?

Bars92
04-21-2012, 11:55 PM
Ironically, the Champions League run may have cost us the season. The team played ok in its first 5 or so games, just none of them were in the league. And before you can say fire Vinter we're 0-6.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-21-2012, 11:57 PM
Eh, wasn't that bad of a game. Although defensive lapses continue to be the story at least the offense is encouraging. Frings looked good in a more advanced position, makes you wonder why he wasn't used there earlier. I thought Eckersley had a good solid game but Stinson was terrible, showed no reason to get another start.

Cann and Frings are too slow for one on one foot races which happen frequently with the gaps we leave in midfield. For the next match I would pair Cann up with either Henry or Emory and push Frings up the field where he can have a bigger impact on the game and try to counter RSL's dominating midfield.

yeah pretty much this.
obviously not psyched on the 6th loss in a row but oddly a bit more positive after this game.
still 50/50 on winter, dunno if i want him gone completely, maybe a move around with DeKlerk running academy (if possible), Rongen as coach and Winter upstairs. Kinda feel like Mariner needs to make himself useful as far as acquisitions are concerned, Winter still has yet to prove himself tactically as well.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-22-2012, 12:03 AM
Can someone explain how Torsten Frings giving up the ball 26 seconds into the game and then Kocic coming waaaay out his area to get deeked out and scored on Winter's fault? Without those two fuck ups we win 2-1!

What about Plata's lack of creativity? or the fact that at one point in the second half when Eckersley was running around like a chicken with his head cut off all over the pitch?

At what point do the players count for the fault of the loss instead of the entire blame being put on the manager?

Why are we not hearing from Mariner? He is the key to this franchises success in the MLS! We haven't heard a peep from him!

Lots of blame to be pointed a lot of places.

yeah gotta say a couple of these things have been overlooked by people.
im not excusing the game by anymeans but id like to hear some opinions on these

loconet
04-22-2012, 12:16 AM
Fuck this day for footy.

Furtado91
04-22-2012, 12:18 AM
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/04/21/aron-winter-april-21-2012

People are just drilling Aron Winter with topics like De Guzman, about how he can say theres progress made if they are 0-6. its an interesting press conference.

123 elite
04-22-2012, 12:38 AM
I think hope died today. When you have such a dire, leaderless, directionless, impotent performance in front of a half empty stadium where chicagos 75 travellers can make more noise then its curtains. The season is already done. Its going to take years to recover from this if that can even happen. Very depressed.

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 12:55 AM
Not to make you feel worse 123 but the Kelly article in the Star on the game is already up and he's pointing to a situation far worse than someone like me, a bonafide Winter critic, can possibly imagine.

If even half of what he says is true (and I have no reason to doubt his report) things are not getting better anytime soon.

This is MoJo the sequel and supporters are sitting here taking it with a smile.

Waggy
04-22-2012, 12:56 AM
So yesterday Winter was trying to ram a 4 3 3 that won't work down the clubs throat, he wouldn't make any changes to tactics or formations and that's why he's bad.
Today he's bad because he can't decide where to play Frings, and moved guys into different places and tried a different formation. Even changing formations midway through the game. Mkay.

Tfc played a good game today outside of the first 5 minutes, and 2 fuck ups by Kocic. Watch the game again (or at least the game in 6). We had a lot of possession, and not possession in our end or in the midfield, in their end of the pitch. We looked dangerous on almost every rush. Chicago could get no sustained pressure at any point, all goals came totally against the run of play. The first one, Kocic basically threw the ball to the Chicago player. The 3rd goal he came out of the box, and wasn't close to getting the ball, when there were 2 TFC defenders closing the guy anyways. Those 2 plays dont happen, and we won. The TFC that lost today was 10x better than the TFC of the past few games

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 01:01 AM
Not knowing where to play Frings isn't a bad thing? :noidea:

If we're to believe Catheter Kelly, it's possible Winter isn't even seeing eye-to-eye with Frings on where to play. Does that sound like a manager in control?

Waggy
04-22-2012, 01:05 AM
You guys want to know where the apologists are? They felt somewhat optimistic after a greatly improved effort from the club, checked this thread and said fuck this, it's just depressing. I did it right after the game and walked away and I should've done it tonight as well.

I think he knows exactly where to play Frings. The difference came when we needed goals later in the game, Frings pushed forward. I don't think anyone thinks he should be playing striker full time. We all know he should play DM, if you have a better option to captain the defense I'm all ears. And Frings knows that too. When a team is 0-6, there's always stories about stuff like that. Remember the media market we're in. I mean, when the hell did Cathal Kelly become any sort of trusted source on TFC related news. Or anything for that matter

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 01:16 AM
I figured we'd question Kelly. :rolleyes:

Funny...if someone reported it on this board as inside info it would be questioned because it's not on the record.

Here Kelly has it on the record and we still question it.

Sometimes there just isn't enough proof in the world...

123 elite
04-22-2012, 01:16 AM
So yesterday Winter was trying to ram a 4 3 3 that won't work down the clubs throat, he wouldn't make any changes to tactics or formations and that's why he's bad.
Today he's bad because he can't decide where to play Frings, and moved guys into different places and tried a different formation. Even changing formations midway through the game. Mkay.

Tfc played a good game today outside of the first 5 minutes, and 2 fuck ups by Kocic. Watch the game again (or at least the game in 6). We had a lot of possession, and not possession in our end or in the midfield, in their end of the pitch. We looked dangerous on almost every rush. Chicago could get no sustained pressure at any point, all goals came totally against the run of play. The first one, Kocic basically threw the ball to the Chicago player. The 3rd goal he came out of the box, and wasn't close to getting the ball, when there were 2 TFC defenders closing the guy anyways. Those 2 plays dont happen, and we won. The TFC that lost today was 10x better than the TFC of the past few games

You know what... with respect. Its just not the case. The reality is (and i dont take any pleasure in saying it) is that we didn't look dangerous. Posession means nothing. No-one wins on possession.The reality with all this seasons games i've seen (missed the seattle game) is that we are the lucky ones. Looking at Chicago today... in defence they were never overly stretched or panicked. WE scored a wonder goal. That happens with every team. We scored a goal where we got a break of the ball. But Chicago didn't actually threaten us that much during the game and they scored three times and hit the bar. They did that on us on about half the attacking opportunities. Quite easily becase they see our utter lack of coordination. So did Chivas,columbus, montreal and lets not even go to SJ. We are an absolute disorganised rabble in the middle of the park. Uncoordinated up front. For all teh chances we had what did we actually do? Some crosses to no-one? The most worrying aspect of play this seson is that our 'moments' rely on individual efforts almost entirely. Lambe had a good game today but it was because he was turning players and running at them and getting shots off. It wasn't because he was making any effective linking play with anyone. Players weren't feeding off him or moving into space. How did that first goal happen. One pass and an individual effort. We actually haven't produced a decent team effort goal since the LA skydome game. Thats what f****wrong here. It isn't a team. Its like 5 year olds in the park all running at the ball and occasionally something happens to make the parents smile. We are the parents. I'm not f***** smiling anymore though.

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 01:21 AM
And Waggy to he criticism on Winter isn't that he doesn't change his tactics, it's that he doesn't change them to effective tactics. One shows knowledge and intuition, the other shows panic and indecision.

123 elite
04-22-2012, 01:28 AM
Just read that Kelly article. Not much argument with that especially the "Under Winter, this club has no midfield to speak of." line. Said that since 2nd game last year.

Shakes McQueen
04-22-2012, 02:00 AM
I figured we'd question Kelly. :rolleyes:

Funny...if someone reported it on this board as inside info it would be questioned because it's not on the record.

Here Kelly has it on the record and we still question it.

Sometimes there just isn't enough proof in the world...

Who is this royal "we" you're referring to? Waggy is the one questioning Kelly. Refer to him.

- Scott

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 02:09 AM
Patience Scott...patience. You'll see...

In the Winter thread there's another. As Sunday goes by I expect many others.

Couchy81
04-22-2012, 04:42 AM
It was really hard to sing any song today. I was doing it but wasn't feeling it at all. My buddy who has never been to a TFC game said the drunken Spaniards sitting behind him at a blue jays game last season were louder than the crowd at the game today... but I can't blame the crowd it is all on the team. Can't disagree with his statement.

Pookie
04-22-2012, 06:54 AM
The Chicago fans were pretty good in 104. They even had a horn. But they didn't use it well.

They should have sampled the 2 Live Crew with it.

Oh me so horn - y (blat blat blat blat)
Oh me so horn - y (blat blat-blat-blat)

*sigh* after 30 seconds in to that game that's where my mind went. Cheesy chants.

trane
04-22-2012, 07:05 AM
Not knowing where to play Frings isn't a bad thing? :noidea:

If we're to believe Catheter Kelly, it's possible Winter isn't even seeing eye-to-eye with Frings on where to play. Does that sound like a manager in control?

Why is a question were to play Frings? I mean Frings is our best player but were can he play? First he can play as CDM, that is his natural position, then you can push him back as a SW/CB, and maybe because this is the MLS you can push up a bit to play a more forward CM role, but what else could you do with him? If you are concenred about the back line you keep him back to protect it if you want some help with co-ordinating the attacki then you push him to CM, in which case our defence sufffers. As much as many want to make it complicated it is not rocket sience. Not seeing eye to eye with your captain and best player is a huge problem.

tfc007
04-22-2012, 07:57 AM
Guys cheer up we are going to break the record real soon I beleive next game or the one after!

sidvan
04-22-2012, 08:42 AM
The party at the top of 115 made a less than enjoyable game tolerable.

ag futbol
04-22-2012, 08:54 AM
MLS has always been about taking players who are not perfect and designing a system around them that allows for maximum results. Not only that, but guess who chose ALL the players on this team? We want some better players now ... erm... wasn't the idea last time we shuffled the deck?

I have no interest in re-running the tape where player X is terrible for TFC but is somehow able to contribute at another MLS club. He'll subsequently grumble about things wrong with the club and someone will inevitably reply "sour grapes", "not technically good enough for total football", etc... Clubs that are winning are making use of our former players, but nobody in the world has use for our former managers... what does that tell us?

Still Kicking
04-22-2012, 08:59 AM
I have seldom been pleased with Kelly of the Star and his take on things TFC, yet today I think he had absolutely nailed it. Winter feels no connection to the players in red out there. He has not brought them along and we are not seeing the results of his coaching. He would gladly throw them away and bring in strangers. No surprise the players are wary. We fans are wary too.
Winter has failed to learn how to thrive in the MLS. His arrogance may be the reason that TFC is the worst team in the league. I suspect that 10 Torsten Frings and a keeper would be able to make the Winter way work. Not going to happen...

Huyton
04-22-2012, 09:08 AM
They say that the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Maybe we should try doing the one thing we haven't yet - hiring a PROVEN MLS coach who has had success in this league before. How much can we pay to tempt Sigi?

What's Steve Nichol up to? We already have his mate.

Maybe we need a Nichol and a Mariner to right this ship?

whyalwaysme11
04-22-2012, 09:46 AM
although i never thought there come a day where i would want to play LA.
im still hopeful cause of the way the league is set-up this year and the inconsistency of the teams in the league (aside form skc)
string a few wins together and were back in the playoff hunt.

hold up will jdg be starting for canada... i sure as hell hope not

Ossington Mental Youth
04-22-2012, 09:47 AM
What's Steve Nichol up to? We already have his mate.

Maybe we need a Nichol and a Mariner to right this ship?

kinda feel like mariner is part of the reason our defense is so shit right now

narduch
04-22-2012, 09:59 AM
MLS has always been about taking players who are not perfect and designing a system around them that allows for maximum results. Not only that, but guess who chose ALL the players on this team? We want some better players now ... erm... wasn't the idea last time we shuffled the deck?

I have no interest in re-running the tape where player X is terrible for TFC but is somehow able to contribute at another MLS club. He'll subsequently grumble about things wrong with the club and someone will inevitably reply "sour grapes", "not technically good enough for total football", etc... Clubs that are winning are making use of our former players, but nobody in the world has use for our former managers... what does that tell us?

Dan Gargan and Maicon Santos are two pretty good recent examples.

Gringo Starr
04-22-2012, 10:10 AM
So I might be delusional but I don't think things are as bad as they appear. This team looks much better than an 0-6 squad and I still think the playoffs are a possibility if they can get 3 victories in the next 4 league games. Big ask for sure given they are playing RSL and what is I'm sure will be a very motivated Dero however if they can beat D.C. twice and Philly they will be back in the hunt and those 2 squads haven't looked great either.

The progress in this squad from one year to the next is IMHO the fact that we can now generate quality scoring chances game in and game out and that we have attacking options on the bench as well. Going forward the team looks good. At the back not so much.

Glaring weakness that should have been addressed but wasn't. Is this all Winter's fault though? Doesn't Mariner have a role in player aquisitions? I'm not a fan of a back three and prefer Frings in the middle of the park not the backline. Not sure what the answer can be with the current roster. I like Cann but he has too much lead in his boots but if he could be paired with someone more fleet of foot maybe things can work out.

I don't get the criticism of Winter for saying he needs reinforcements-it seems obvious to everyone. To me the Kelly piece seems a little like opportunistic "journalism". Kelly was someone who went out of his way to chastise fans for calling for Wilson to be fired yet here he is stirring the pot with Winter. If Frings and Winter are not on the same page that would be worrisome but I don't think one quote after a tough loss is enough evidence to support the claim. IMO Kelly talked to Kocic because he is the kinda of person who wears his heart on his sleeve, someone who will give a strong reaction to quotes repeated out of context.

And why ask JDG about Winter as if JDG is some sort of authority on how the team should be run. If your going to ask something of JDG ask him what he has done in his time here to improve the squad and ask him if he honestly feels that he has given his all game in and game out-there is a reason he is a sub and its not for a lack of talent.

jloome
04-22-2012, 10:19 AM
Dan Gargan and Maicon Santos are two pretty good recent examples.

And Nick Labrocca. And (ouch) Sam Cronin. And Marvell Wynne. Those are just the successful ones.

I think maybe Ag has hit the nail on the head: it's impossible to try to make a league conform to one team's approach. Build-from-the-back is not a good strategy against what I'd call "dink tennis" players -- guys who can win by sheer effort, tenacity and pressure, regardless of the technical ability they're up against.

I think Winter and DeKlerk dismiss American players because they lack technique and read open space poorly. But he doesn't realize that they're the most tenacious and aggressive athletes on the planet. The "dink tennis" reference comes from losing to guys like that when Iw as younger: no matter how good your serve, no matter how hard your topspin backhand, they found a way to get the ball back until you made a mistake.

And that's what MLS is like. It's ultra-pressure, until someone makes a mistake. But our system isn't built for that; it's built for both teams exploiting open-field movement and building from the back.

When we briefly abandoned build-from-the-back against Santos and concentrated on keeping a compact unit shape, we were a much better team. But why have we only seemed to tactically adapt in those games, against an opponent Winter respect?

I think they foolishly believe that one day we'll have the right player mix to just dance around foolish, talentless Americans -- and it's just delusional.

Ultimately, the reason I'm weighing towards getting rid of him is that he doesn't seem to adapt tactically or motivate, two very important things in this league.

jabbronies
04-22-2012, 10:21 AM
MLS has always been about taking players who are not perfect and designing a system around them that allows for maximum results. Not only that, but guess who chose ALL the players on this team? We want some better players now ... erm... wasn't the idea last time we shuffled the deck?

I have no interest in re-running the tape where player X is terrible for TFC but is somehow able to contribute at another MLS club. He'll subsequently grumble about things wrong with the club and someone will inevitably reply "sour grapes", "not technically good enough for total football", etc... Clubs that are winning are making use of our former players, but nobody in the world has use for our former managers... what does that tell us?

Not completely true. Carver is at Newcastle again as an assisatant; Cummins is back at youth Development; Daso is Head coach of u-20 team
The only real duds are MoJo and Preki
But you have kinda made a different point - our ex-coaches are not first team coaches anywhere else.

sure clubs are using some of our ex-players - but you have to look at the whole team and make the comparison.

Even though Toronto had most of the ball possession yesterday - Chicago looked more skilled when they had the ball.
How many errant passes or lack of being able to control a pass did we see from our players yesterday compared to Chicago?

123 elite
04-22-2012, 10:24 AM
So I might be delusional but I don't think things are as bad as they appear. This team looks much better than an 0-6 squad and I still think the playoffs are a possibility if they can get 3 victories in the next 4 league games. Big ask for sure given they are playing RSL and what is I'm sure will be a very motivated Dero however if they can beat D.C. twice and Philly they will be back in the hunt and those 2 squads haven't looked great either.


what have you seen in the 6 games or the ten games if you count the CCL that makes you think we could possibly get 3 wins in the next 4?




The progress in this squad from one year to the next is IMHO the fact that we can now generate quality scoring chances game in and game out and that we have attacking options on the bench as well. Going forward the team looks good. At the back not so much.



Under every manager we have had we created quality scoring chances. Every team does. We used to score in quite a lot of them. We don't now. Possibly because we aren't actually creating many quality scoring chances. In Montreal we barely created any for the first 70 mins

117
04-22-2012, 10:31 AM
The good news is that our playoff chances only dropped by 2% yesterday.
The bad news, of course, is that they went from 4.3% to 2.3%

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/TorontoFC.html

ag futbol
04-22-2012, 10:36 AM
Not completely true. Carver is at Newcastle again as an assisatant; Cummins is back at youth Development; Daso is Head coach of u-20 team
The only real duds are MoJo and Preki
But you have kinda made a different point - our ex-coaches are not first team coaches anywhere else.

sure clubs are using some of our ex-players - but you have to look at the whole team and make the comparison.

Even though Toronto had most of the ball possession yesterday - Chicago looked more skilled when they had the ball.
How many errant passes or lack of being able to control a pass did we see from our players yesterday compared to Chicago?
Yeah, it was a little sloppy with that last comment but I wanted to make a clear point without muddying the waters with too many 'buts'. Some of those former managers I have respect for, utmost Cummins because he had no control over who he had to coach. That being said, I just think this club in its history has made too many excuses about needing new players. I don't think we're talented, but we have enough to scrap out a win or two if we realize our own limitations.

Canary10
04-22-2012, 10:37 AM
What's Steve Nichol up to? We already have his mate.

Maybe we need a Nichol and a Mariner to right this ship?


Please no. Mariner may know the crazy weird rules of MLS player acquisition but I wouldn't trust him to build a team. He's been complete crap in any managerial position he's had. The thought of two of them together makes me want to cry.

Canary10
04-22-2012, 10:43 AM
The most astute quote from the game came from Kocic. We have no midfield to speak of. It affects us both going forward and defending. It's a bit ironic hearing JDG making the comments he has given he's part of that problem. The whole midfield needs to be given a shake. Winter's not doing enough to keep it organized. Whoever mentioned we seem to do it well against teams he respects, such as the Mexican teams, is bang on. Against MLS teams they just run amok with no organization. WInter needs to assert some fucking control over that group.

Dave67
04-22-2012, 10:44 AM
The good news is that our playoff chances only dropped by 2% yesterday.
The bad news, of course, is that they went from 4.3% to 2.3%

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/TorontoFC.html


LOL - This has to be some kind of world speed record for bringing out sports club stats to see where your team is at in the playoff race.

ExiledRed
04-22-2012, 10:50 AM
Please no. Mariner may know the crazy weird rules of MLS player acquisition but I wouldn't trust him to build a team. He's been complete crap in any managerial position he's had. The thought of two of them together makes me want to cry.

Historical statistics dont hold true here.

Mariner/Nicol did quite well with the revs did they not? isnt 4 straight finals, a superliga and an open cup.......'not crap'?

Considering they did this with north american players, field turf, no DP and did it by employing an intelligent 3-5-2, you arent making any sense.

Im having a really hard time wondering what you mean by 'complete crap?'. Please elaborate why this managerial duo is 'complete crap' and the current regime is not.

Gringo Starr
04-22-2012, 10:53 AM
[QUOTE=123 elite;1477254]what have you seen in the 6 games or the ten games if you count the CCL that makes you think we could possibly get 3 wins in the next 4?



I think TFC has looked competitive for good stretches in just about every game this year except Montreal and Seattle. If they can clear up some of the mistakes at the back than why can't they win? D.C. and Philly haven't looked great either. With Cann and Frings back maybe we can get a bit of stability at the back and the guys can gel a bit over the next 2 games (RSL & Montreal) and be a bit more solid for the three games that will determine if we have any hope D.C., D.C. and PHI

Your right Montreal was horrible but overall I think the team has done well to create chances. When Dero was here it seemed like the offense was going to come from one place. The attack seems more diverse now and the bad finishing won't last forever...

Beach_Red
04-22-2012, 10:55 AM
Ultimately, the reason I'm weighing towards getting rid of him is that he doesn't seem to adapt tactically or motivate, two very important things in this league.

I think this nails it. The goal is to win in this league. The MLS season is lost, we may pass Montreal in the standings, but we won't get into 5th place.

But the NCC could still be salvaged. The roster is good enough but they will continue to be less and less motivated if things aren't changed.

Canary10
04-22-2012, 10:56 AM
Historical statistics dont hold true here.

Mariner/Nicol did quite well with the revs did they not? isnt 4 straight finals, a superliga and an open cup.......'not crap'?

Considering they did this with north american players, field turf, no DP and did it by employing an intelligent 3-5-2, you arent making any sense.

Im having a really hard time wondering what you mean by 'complete crap?'. Please elaborate why this managerial duo is 'complete crap' and the current regime is not.

Ask Plymouth Argyle about his managerial skills.

asterix606
04-22-2012, 11:00 AM
What is very troubling in this situation, 0-6, is that many steps were taken to try and improve things.

And this was following all of these town hall meetings where fans expressed their anger at management. (when is the next meeting!)

- They hired a fancy consultant to analyse TFC and make his recommandations.
- They hired a new coach
- They hired new players and DP's

And at the end of it, all this equals to 0.

ExiledRed
04-22-2012, 11:04 AM
Ask Plymouth Argyle about his managerial skills.

Why bother, a more relevant example would be the revs, with Nicol.

Tell me why an undisputably succesful pairing like that would be so bad it would make you cry. go on.

whyalwaysme11
04-22-2012, 11:09 AM
What is very troubling in this situation, 0-6, is that many steps were taken to try and improve things.

And this was following all of these town hall meetings where fans expressed their anger at management. (when is the next meeting!)

- They hired a fancy consultant to analyse TFC and make his recommandations.
- They hired a new coach
- They hired new players and DP's

And at the end of it, all this equals to 0.


i watched the game again when i got home kocic did not play that well aside from that one save he needs to be more aggressive. even agaisnt montreal he was suspect. frings and ecks are the only two that are reliable and consistent...

Canary10
04-22-2012, 11:10 AM
So Mariner manages a Championship team to relegation, and along with Nicol presided over a New England team during their slow road to becoming an irrelevant team in MLS, leading to Nicol's firing, and that's who you want managing TFC? Personally I'd rather stick with TFC's philosophy of local players and hire a Canadian to take a stab at it.

Rene Kingsriver
04-22-2012, 11:10 AM
Ask Plymouth Argyle about his managerial skills.

managing a club going through financial meltdown is hardly a fair measure of his skills is it

Beach_Red
04-22-2012, 11:14 AM
managing a club going through financial meltdown is hardly a fair measure of his skills is it

Unfortunately, by the look of those empty seats it looks like TFC will be having financial troubles soon, too. Imagine the meeting in the MLSE offices when they ask for the money to sign the next DP...

So maybe the guys who ran NE when it was the cheapest team in MLS and still got it into the playoffs would be the right choice here.

ExiledRed
04-22-2012, 11:15 AM
So Mariner manages a Championship team to relegation, and along with Nicol presided over a New England team during their slow road to becoming an irrelevant team in MLS, leading to Nicol's firing, and that's who you want managing TFC? Personally I'd rather stick with TFC's philosophy of local players and hire a Canadian to take a stab at it.

An MLS assistant coach going to the championship to manage a team is probably not going to do well. I dont see the two situations as related.

Nicol and Mariner made the revs irrelevant? It had nothing to do with the indifferent ownership that refuses to commit resources while the rest of MLS grows up?

Of course it was Nicol and Mariner who made the revs relevant (very relevant) in the first place, in spite of that ownership.

Your last point about local players is baffling.

Belfast_Boy
04-22-2012, 11:17 AM
think Frings is going to start in net next game.....

Frings is a mid-fielder. that is where he belongs. please play him there. didn't anyone ever see him play before?

it was another disappointing day, losing sucks. Lambe was impressive. not that it matters, but there was better play yesterday than in recent games. at the end of the day it's about who puts the ball in the net. they did it better than us. if anyone takes heat for this it's Winter.

watched the first half in 220 and it was sad to hear their fans making more noise than us.

Canary10
04-22-2012, 11:18 AM
"Your last point about local players is baffling."

We are promoting academy players who were born in Canada and played their football in Toronto, unlike the other Canadian teams who don't give Canadian players a sniff. I'm just suggesting extending that philosopy to managers and hiring a Canadian coach to run the team.

ExiledRed
04-22-2012, 11:21 AM
^ We are promoting academy players who were born in Canada and played their football in Toronto, unlike the other Canadian teams who don't give Canadian players a sniff. I'm just suggesting extending that philosopy to managers and hiring a Canadian coach to run the team.

a) This current regime has so far treated our local players like crap.
b) The academy is losing its best talent which was probably not destined for us anyway.
c) If there is a canadian coach who can win this league and start taking names from the get go without a ten year 'easing in' period, Im all for it.

Canary10
04-22-2012, 11:31 AM
^ Why do you treat every comment like it's a fight? I said nothing about how academy players are treated, where they are going, etc. Only that we have more Canadian players and more academy players than all other MLS teams, particulalry the other so-called Canadian teams who have done nothing to support Canadian footaballers. Which is absolutely true. And that we extend that to coaching. There are quite a few Canadian coaches looking for a chance and who can probably be very good if given the chance. Don't know why that needs to provoke an argument about where some academy players are ending up playing.

ag futbol
04-22-2012, 11:32 AM
Here's an interesting thought: FCE has hired TWO Dutch coaches and while they aren't as famous as Winter ... they were both more qualified!

I'd look at any of the following for head coaches: Colin Clark, Sasho Cirovski, Nicol, Steve Morrow, Richie Williams...

dupont
04-22-2012, 11:33 AM
I blame Winter 100% for this loss and this whole season. What I'm seeing out there are players that are decent enough to win some games but not doing that because we are playing stupid tactics and having odd lineup choices. I'm sick of it. Fire him now and give these players a chance to show what they can do when they are playing a normal MLS style game.

Kilgore Trout
04-22-2012, 12:25 PM
^

basically, this is what is happening: Winter is doing his job like he would play FIFA '12 or FIFA Manager. Let's see if this works, puts it out there.

He has no real world clue.

And I wish everyone would stop repeating this nonsense praise of the Ajax system and philosophy. It hasn't mattered or been relevant outside of the Netherlands in a long time. Football needs tactics, not self-fancying arrogance.

asterix606
04-22-2012, 12:43 PM
Winter thinks we are idiots! He said after the game as you all know, “I think if you compare it with last season we have made a very huge progression,” “I think we are on the right track.”


2011 (first 6 regular games) = 1-2-3 = 6 points GF 6 GA 9 = -3

2012 (first 6 regular games) = 0-6-0 = 0 points GF 4 GA 13 = -9


This guy makes absolutely no sense, he is delusional!

Huyton
04-22-2012, 01:03 PM
I think the problem is very definitely with Winter.

He is faced, in MLS, a highly aggressive league, where "heart" is valued more than skill.

He knows one way to play, and doesn't have the players to do it, because they don't exist in North America.

The salary cap does not allow TFC to just go and get the players he needs.

Winter looks to be incapable of coming up with a system that will suit the players he has got, and get the most out of them as he builds towards his ideal team.

I think that this is where Nichol-Mariner are ideal. Tactically, Nichol is excellent, but is not that good thinking strategically. Mariner is the opposite. Neither alone is particularly good at everything, but together they make a very good team. Further, they respect each other and I think they'd jump at the chance to work together again.

Ideally, what TFC should have done is to get Nichol and Mariner looking after the first team and having Winter set up the academy. This, I think, would have worked to everyones strengths.

ryan
04-22-2012, 01:03 PM
Winter thinks we are idiots! He said after the game as you all know, “I think if you compare it with last season we have made a very huge progression,” “I think we are on the right track.”


2011 (first 6 regular games) = 1-2-3 = 6 points GF 6 GA 9 = -3

2012 (first 6 regular games) = 0-6-0 = 0 points GF 4 GA 13 = -9


This guy makes absolutely no sense, he is delusional!


The difference is Winter isn't talking about results where as all the media and people acting as you are, are talking about solely results. His english isn't good enough to make it clear to the media, but when he's saying "we're making progress" it's in how they are playing in their form and style, not in what the final score is.

I think in what we saw yesterday, the link up between players, short passes, leaving the ball in space to shoot...there was very good rhythm and flow, players are seeing more options and making plays for them. In the 2nd half especially, we dominated the play. We were ahead in possession, shots, corners, crosses...etc. Had Frings and Johnson scored their chances and we won 4-3, would you be crediting his system for generating these chances? Same for the Chivas game? There was enough chances to win that game, but the players didn't execute and Winter is being blamed. Is Frings gaff to start the game Winter's fault too? Seems like any mistake made by a player is his fault.


Now...we have improved in this system, we're doing things now that we weren't doing last season when this all started, that is fact. He's entirely correct when he says we've made a huge progression with this system. However, saying we are on the right track is up in the air because this system needs to produce results to be considered right. He believes the results will come as we further along within the system he's implemented, we shall see, I'm not writing it off yet.

To summarize, on the point of progression and of what he's comparing to, he's entirely correct and you simply don't understand what he's talking about. He's not talking about results. Yes results matter and we need them, but that's not what he was talking about.

Richard
04-22-2012, 01:06 PM
^ I was about to point out he is not talking about results but style of play and form.

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 01:09 PM
Winter looks to be incapable of coming up with a system that will suit the players he has got, and get the most out of them as he builds towards his ideal team.

I was saying this 12 months ago.

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 01:10 PM
The difference is Winter isn't talking about results where as all the media and people acting as you are, are talking about solely results. His english isn't good enough to make it clear to the media, but when he's saying "we're making progress" it's in how they are playing in their form and style, not in what the final score is.

I think in what we saw yesterday, the link up between players, short passes, leaving the ball in space to shoot...there was very good rhythm and flow, players are seeing more options and making plays for them. In the 2nd half especially, we dominated the play. We were ahead in possession, shots, corners, crosses...etc. Had Frings and Johnson scored their chances and we won 4-3, would you be crediting his system for generating these chances? Same for the Chivas game? There was enough chances to win that game, but the players didn't execute and Winter is being blamed. Is Frings gaff to start the game Winter's fault too? Seems like any mistake made by a player is his fault.


Now...we have improved in this system, we're doing things now that we weren't doing last season when this all started, that is fact. He's entirely correct when he says we've made a huge progression with this system. However, saying we are on the right track is up in the air because this system needs to produce results to be considered right. He believes the results will come as we further along within the system he's implemented, we shall see, I'm not writing it off yet.

To summarize, on the point of progression and of what he's comparing to, he's entirely correct and you simply don't understand what he's talking about. He's not talking about results. Yes results matter and we need them, but that's not what he was talking about.

Results are the ultimate measure of progress. If you're not improving your statistics, most importantly your position on the table, then the progress is superficial.

asterix606
04-22-2012, 01:11 PM
Yes, you are right. I dont know what Im talking about!

I guess results dont matter!

Sorry! I need results and points!

ExiledRed
04-22-2012, 01:28 PM
The difference is Winter isn't talking about results where as all the media and people acting as you are, are talking about solely results. His english isn't good enough to make it clear to the media, but when he's saying "we're making progress" it's in how they are playing in their form and style, not in what the final score is.

I think in what we saw yesterday, the link up between players, short passes, leaving the ball in space to shoot...there was very good rhythm and flow, players are seeing more options and making plays for them. In the 2nd half especially, we dominated the play. We were ahead in possession, shots, corners, crosses...etc. Had Frings and Johnson scored their chances and we won 4-3, would you be crediting his system for generating these chances? Same for the Chivas game? There was enough chances to win that game, but the players didn't execute and Winter is being blamed. Is Frings gaff to start the game Winter's fault too? Seems like any mistake made by a player is his fault.


Now...we have improved in this system, we're doing things now that we weren't doing last season when this all started, that is fact. He's entirely correct when he says we've made a huge progression with this system. However, saying we are on the right track is up in the air because this system needs to produce results to be considered right. He believes the results will come as we further along within the system he's implemented, we shall see, I'm not writing it off yet.

To summarize, on the point of progression and of what he's comparing to, he's entirely correct and you simply don't understand what he's talking about. He's not talking about results. Yes results matter and we need them, but that's not what he was talking about.

This talk about style, play and form is all pontification.

" We have a 0-6 record, but its better than when we were winning because two players who might not be here in a month linked up and completed an attractive play about the thirty fourth minute, and that told me that we're going to be just like Ajax within the year. "

"We have more rythym and fluidity" "we are more cohesive as a unit" "We look more like a team than ever"

Its all fucking nonsense!!!!!!!!!! Its delusionary!

How about we get eleven performing artists to do some really cool stuff in the middle of the pitch for ninety minutes? We wont win that way either, but it will be 'entertaining' and 'cultured.'

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 01:38 PM
Yes, you are right. I dont know wahat Im talking about.

I guess resluts dont matter!

Sorry! i need results and points.

In my opinion, TFC fans have been sold a bill of goods with this "attractive style" of soccer. Sports is about results. It's about who is still standing at the end and people have lost sight of that. If we play the prettiest football but wind up in the cellar of the league each year, what good does pretty football do us? The case that needs to be made is that the football being employed is effective and will render results both in the short-term and in the long-term. We know that Winter's style, tactics, etc. have not produced in the short-term. How do we know that it will then produce in the long-term and when will that be? If it takes 10 years to make us Barcelona of MLS (and that is a HUGE "if"), but we've resided in the basement of the league the entire team, who will be left to watch this magical transformation and can anyone assure me it will actually happen?

jloome
04-22-2012, 01:48 PM
I was saying this 12 months ago.

yes, but we don't credit for guesswork. People have to get the rope to hang themselves first, or it's just speculation. Even people who gave him a chance said he might turn out to have the same problems as Ruud Gullit in L.A., which seems to be what is happening.

jloome
04-22-2012, 01:51 PM
This talk about style, play and form is all pontification.

" We have a 0-6 record, but its better than when we were winning because two players who might not be here in a month linked up and completed an attractive play about the thirty fourth minute, and that told me that we're going to be just like Ajax within the year. "

"We have more rythym and fluidity" "we are more cohesive as a unit" "We look more like a team than ever"

Its all fucking nonsense!!!!!!!!!! Its delusionary!

How about we get eleven performing artists to do some really cool stuff in the middle of the pitch for ninety minutes? We wont win that way either, but it will be 'entertaining' and 'cultured.'

Except it's not nonsense. It's not delusion. They are more entertaining to watch. If you can't see that, there's something wrong with you, not him.

Having said that, every argument I'm hearing now about why he won't be able to turn it around rings true to me. He hasn't gotten a stud CB; he hasn't solved the midfield issue; he hasn't shown tactical acumen in adjusting game-by-game.

Again, even THAT doesn't mean he'll ultimately fail, just that there's now an actual reason to have doubt he's the right guy. Entertaining to watch is only half the equation; they have to be competitive, and they're not.

ag futbol
04-22-2012, 01:52 PM
This talk about style, play and form is all pontification.

" We have a 0-6 record, but its better than when we were winning because two players who might not be here in a month linked up and completed an attractive play about the thirty fourth minute, and that told me that we're going to be just like Ajax within the year. "

"We have more rythym and fluidity" "we are more cohesive as a unit" "We look more like a team than ever"

Its all fucking nonsense!!!!!!!!!! Its delusionary!

How about we get eleven performing artists to do some really cool stuff in the middle of the pitch for ninety minutes? We wont win that way either, but it will be 'entertaining' and 'cultured.'
Agreed, am I the only one who thought Chicago looked mostly disinterested in playing TFC? Credit that for us looking so "great".

They didn't do a lot of the stuff most teams try against TFC to make them ineffective. With the exception of the goal, they didn't pressure up top with their speed, they didn't try to smash the shit out of our weak midfield, and they gave our wingers space to operate. That being said, it was all done with the purpose of hitting us on the counter attack, which worked anyway.

Belfast_Boy
04-22-2012, 01:52 PM
This talk about style, play and form is all pontification.

" We have a 0-6 record, but its better than when we were winning because two players who might not be here in a month linked up and completed an attractive play about the thirty fourth minute, and that told me that we're going to be just like Ajax within the year. "

"We have more rythym and fluidity" "we are more cohesive as a unit" "We look more like a team than ever"

Its all fucking nonsense!!!!!!!!!! Its delusionary!

How about we get eleven performing artists to do some really cool stuff in the middle of the pitch for ninety minutes? We wont win that way either, but it will be 'entertaining' and 'cultured.'

that it right there! fire Winter, hire Cirque du Soleil!

ensco
04-22-2012, 01:54 PM
yes, but we don't credit for guesswork

You know I have a high opinion of your general contribution here, right? With that said .... are you kidding me? What are you talking about?

There was a long list of indicators early on that this wasn't working. By April 2011 Winter's arrogance/communication problems were obvious, we were off to a bad start in the league (not this bad, but not good), we had the Cann stuff (playing him at LB, the POW press conference), several "we need better players" press conferences (I defy you to find another manager that ever does that, he's now done it 15 times) ....and there were other things I just can't remember now.

It's true we were screwed, we had to let this slow motion train wreck play out. (Still have to imho, I would still vote no to firing him today.) But let's tell it like it is/was - there have been many obvious problems from the very start.

What did we do to deserve damn near the worst team in all of world football? Has anyone, in any league, in any country, been this bad since we were formed?

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 01:57 PM
yes, but we don't credit for guesswork. People have to get the rope to hang themselves first, or it's just speculation. Even people who gave him a chance said he might turn out to have the same problems as Ruud Gullit in L.A., which seems to be what is happening.

I wasn't guessing. I was outright stating the deficiencies I had seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears. I threw up all kinds of explanations, statistics, reasonings and all were dismissed. And I was fine with giving people the amount of time to see for themselves, what I was never fine with was limitless rope and undefined expectations because all you get is a lack of accountability.

I understood people don't have access to the information that I had, but I didn't understand why people couldn't step up and recognize that you don't just blindly give someone the keys to the car without a certain amount of expectations as to how he is going to use it.

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 01:58 PM
You know I have a high opinion of your general contribution here, right? With that said .... are you kidding me? What are you talking about?

There was a long list of indicators early on that this wasn't working. By April 2011 Winter's arrogance/communication problems were obvious, we were off to a bad start in the league (not this bad, but not good), we had the Cann stuff (playing him at LB, the POW press conference), several "we need better players" press conferences (I defy you to find another manager that ever does that, he's now done it 15 times) ....and there were other things I just can't remember now

Most importantly the historically bad start to the season. Let's not forget TFC is now the sole owner of the all-time accumulated worst goal differential among all teams in MLS history and with our current start, that record is in no danger of falling on someone else.

When we started with Winter, there were TWO teams ahead of us in that particular record.

Beach_Red
04-22-2012, 02:00 PM
This reminds me so much of the Canadian movie business - sure, we never get any results at the box office, but look how many awards we won at the Bulgarian Film Festival!!!

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 02:03 PM
This reminds me so much of the Canadian movie business - sure, we never get any results at the box office, but look how many awards we won at the Bulgarian Film Festival!!!

LOL!

bertal
04-22-2012, 02:16 PM
blame winter? i'm sure the players are clearly not good enough. to turn over a 0-1 deficit into a 2-1 advantage showed that maybe this team can get it together... but to concede an equalizer two minutes later speaks volumes. then the lads promptly let in a soft goal where the centre back(s) and the goalie didn't communicate to who would get the ball is just sad.

ExiledRed
04-22-2012, 02:19 PM
yes, but we don't credit for guesswork.



Nobody was guessing, the alarm bells went off almost immediately and they never stopped ringing.

lets go through what happened last year shall we

- In the first ten games, he was openly experimenting on the pitch stubbornly trying to force his 'system' while rival MLS teams ran riot over us.
- It was obvious he knew nothing about a single opposition team. while they were adapting to our 4-3-3. Our 4-3-3 was not adapting to them.
- Regularly all substitutes were used within fifty minutes, leaving injured players limping on the pitch.
- The public humiliation of Adrian Cann should have horrified all supporters. Coaches should absorb flak from the players not expose them to it.
- He arrogantly dismissed the media as uneducated.
- The Attakora situation didnt seem cool either, I think Roogs covered DeRo.
- He forced players out of position in competetive matches, as DISCIPLINE.
- He started cutting our better players because they couldnt change position, and failed to replace them.
-Jacob Petersen's remarks, Alan Gordon's remarks were inline with Gargan's, I believed them at the time too.

In addition, there was no basis for faith or giving him a chance because he had no experience or track record to point to.

I called for the axe about this time last year and it wasnt guesswork, Winter's inadequacy was just as obvious then as it is now.
I made all these points at the time, without calling any individual on here names - but I still got called a troll and then got banned from the board.

The truth always gets persecuted before its accepted as fact, though.

Davenport
04-22-2012, 02:27 PM
This squad is lacking talent in every position.
Chicago have got 3 players that are way above any quality we have and 2 forwards with real speed.
We'll be lucky to win 4 games all season.

Rocco
04-22-2012, 02:30 PM
In any other town, Winter would have been gone by now. Having said that I think any other coach can't/won't do any better. This is typical TO sports team mentality. It starts from the top with ownership

jloome
04-22-2012, 03:19 PM
I wasn't guessing. I was outright stating the deficiencies I had seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears. I threw up all kinds of explanations, statistics, reasonings and all were dismissed. And I was fine with giving people the amount of time to see for themselves, what I was never fine with was limitless rope and undefined expectations because all you get is a lack of accountability.

I understood people don't have access to the information that I had, but I didn't understand why people couldn't step up and recognize that you don't just blindly give someone the keys to the car without a certain amount of expectations as to how he is going to use it.

I'm not saying it was a blind choice, I'm saying you can't call someone a failure until they've actually failed. And life isn't usually that black and white, even. In fact, I could credit most of the problems he faces to the environment he's come into and the people he works with, quite easily. .... it's his lack of tactical adaption or willingness to recognize it publicly that is driving me nuts.

Ensco, EVERYONE raised the potential that he might fail. That's not the same as preaching that he WILL for six months, and it doesn't validate every fear about his management or every argument as to why it's not working.

What can't be explained away are the elements that we know, for a fact, are directly under his control. And most of those could in no way be fairly evaluated until he'd had a chance to actually coach the team -- lineup choices, tactical choices, handling of the media. And these are things that no one can honestly say they could pre-evaluate.

Beach_Red
04-22-2012, 03:31 PM
I'm not saying it was a blind choice, I'm saying you can't call someone a failure until they've actually failed. And life isn't usually that black and white, even. In fact, I could credit most of the problems he faces to the environment he's come into and the people he works with, quite easily. .... it's his lack of tactical adaption or willingness to recognize it publicly that is driving me nuts.

Ensco, EVERYONE raised the potential that he might fail. That's not the same as preaching that he WILL for six months, and it doesn't validate every fear about his management or every argument as to why it's not working.

What can't be explained away are the elements that we know, for a fact, are directly under his control. And most of those could in no way be fairly evaluated until he'd had a chance to actually coach the team -- lineup choices, tactical choices, handling of the media. And these are things that no one can honestly say they could pre-evaluate.

Well then, you could say that about everyone who came before him, too. It's pretty much exactly the same environment and organization it was on day one.

jloome
04-22-2012, 03:32 PM
The truth always gets persecuted before its accepted as fact, though.

The people who moderate perception of truth first aren't usually doing it for the right reasons. That's ALSO true of human behavior, which is why it takes longer for the group to adapt -- they want proof before they condemn something, not general indications. And these ARE general indications. The U.S. national team is going through the same problems trying to implement the same system. Until it's determined that American players can't be tactically brought up to the quality to make it work, they'll probably keep doing it.

And that's the problem -- as Beaches pointed out from day one -- the initial assumption by Klinsmann that the best way to accelerate the growth of American soccer is to make it identical to the most "attractive" form, rather than the one that best suits the combination of tactical advancements and the existing limitations on youth development.

As Ensco said, however, "It's true we were screwed, we had to let this slow motion train wreck play out." Some of us wanted that to play out with a maximum of optimism and a minimum of bitching and whining. Now that he's basically proven unable to right the ship and deal with MLSE's bullshit, the position will continue to moderate.

Kilgore Trout
04-22-2012, 03:59 PM
This reminds me so much of the Canadian movie business - sure, we never get any results at the box office, but look how many awards we won at the Bulgarian Film Festival!!!

That's quite a bit different. Forget big attempts like Passchendaele; people like Egoyan, McDonald, etc. have carved out niche success. Moreover, a lot of Canadian films are genuinely quality.

This 'progress' in TFC is not quality football. Quality football means you have points. Whereas you can make an awful direct to video ripoff flick and turn a significant profit. You can make a very bad film by anyone's standards (eg. the scourge of Date Movie, Epic Movie, Meet the Spartans etc. a while ago) and make a profit.

There is only the illusion of genuine quality here. TFC might play with more flair now than under Preki but it is not a better football club. Whereas I'm pretty sure we can agree that The Sweet Hereafter is a better film than Epic Movie.

Beach_Red
04-22-2012, 04:08 PM
I don't know, I've never seen Epic Movie, but The Sweet Hereafter is definitely the illusion of quality - based on a quality novel, but a very poor movie. Maybe too ambitious as grief is incredibly difficult to make a visual story out of. Maybe like the style TFC want to play is too ambitious, I don't know.

But in both cases, TFC and any Egoyan movie you want to name, we can agree that in the only measureable ways they fail and any success is claimed in ways that can't be measured; "progress" and "art."

I'm sticking with the analogy ;).

ryan
04-22-2012, 04:17 PM
Results are the ultimate measure of progress. If you're not improving your statistics, most importantly your position on the table, then the progress is superficial.

I guess so. If we play shit football and luck into some results, that's better for you? I guess it must be. I can't see that making for consistent success, but guys are so desperate for success in this town they just want the shortest route there.

I'd prefer we have a form and style of higher quality than what you get in MLS's physical roughshod ways. MLS is fucking BORING, anyone who watches any other league in the world knows the overall quality of the MLS and the way most clubs play is piss in comparison. I don't think many MLS clubs are going to build players beyond the journeymen that they are with the way that they play the game. How to develop high quality skill playing a game that just abuses underskilled players and takes advantage of mistake? Rather than playing in a free flowing fluid manner that demands higher level of skill and execution?

I think we'll also be a more attractive club to European/skill players if we continue on a path of playing a more skillful form of football. Just happens we don't have a roster that was well suited but we're working through that. If you look at our roster, it was tore up and rebuild just last summer, they haven't even been together a year as a group and I didn't believe this transformation into the club Winter is pushing us to be, would happen this fast. Apparently the rest of you do, that's fine I guess.

From a CMNT perspective, we're going to give our developing domestic players a chance to reach higher potentials, than if TFC plays like just another MLS club, playing football that just doesn't compete with the rest of the world. We see it in the CCL when Mexican clubs just trounce our MLS teams. We need to play more like that, none of this physical retarded ass monkey shit football that's crammed down our throats by Garber. Eventually, when we grow and execute higher, we'll make this physical garbage look like shit, like Santos did to us and Seattle. That's what the club believes and I believe it too.

Perhaps I have more patience than most. Perhaps I'm not as desperate to win because I don't really support any other Toronto sports teams. I dunno, but I think there's a strong lack of deep breaths and looking at the whole situation. Does it not take years of player development to make players play in total sync, demonstrating high skill and total understanding of the entire form? Again, most of this roster has been together less than a calendar fucking year! Players who have shown trouble making the simplest of fucking plays at times! Ok...


Yes we have no points, but lets not pretend we haven't been inches away from having an entirely different record either. How many times has Johnson "just missed" alone? So had he buried all his chances we'd all be satisfied and everything is working? A matter of inches has nothing to do with Winter, but it is the difference in about 6-7pts.



Anyways, continue with your "i'm angry and want wins now ranting", then perhaps we can blow it up and we'll give the next coach/roster a year before we tear their heads off and carry on with threads like these.

Code Red
04-22-2012, 04:17 PM
Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse. :facepalm:

Well, at least there's the CCL campaign... whoopee doo.

Kilgore Trout
04-22-2012, 04:20 PM
I don't know, I've never seen Epic Movie, but The Sweet Hereafter is definitely the illusion of quality - based on a quality novel, but a very poor movie. Maybe too ambitious as grief is incredibly difficult to make a visual story out of. Maybe like the style TFC want to play is too ambitious, I don't know.

But in both cases, TFC and any Egoyan movie you want to name, we can agree that in the only measureable ways they fail and any success is claimed in ways that can't be measured; "progress" and "art."

I'm sticking with the analogy http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/smilies/wink.png.

the problem with the analogy is that there is no way to measure the quality of a film. If cash=quality, then TFC and many other consistently terrible teams are quality because they are profitable? There's no 'points' in film. Canadian movies win awards, but TFC won't win awards unless they win games. In either case, the box office draw is irrelevant. If TFC had few fans but were winning the league (it's conceivable), they would still be a good football club. And would win awards.

Even if you didn't like them. :canada:

jloome
04-22-2012, 04:24 PM
Well then, you could say that about everyone who came before him, too. It's pretty much exactly the same environment and organization it was on day one.

I'd certainly say it of John Carver and Chris Cummins, who both seemed like pretty sharp coaches to me. I think most of Carver's "behavior" was blown out of proportion and really a result of having to deal with Mo, who is a snake.

But yeah, with respect to "righting the ship", they'll keep hiring less-than-ideal people with lower-than-average chances of success, because the same people in MLSE hire our coaches.

Kilgore Trout
04-22-2012, 04:28 PM
I guess so. If we play shit football and luck into some results, that's better for you?
.

It's not about 'shit football' and 'good football.' It's that this endeavour is based on aesthetics.

Teams who play long ball or rely on physicality, tightness, and finishing can still be good football teams because they win. They don't 'luck into wins,' they win because they play that style well. It may be ugly, but it'll work.

Beach_Red
04-22-2012, 04:29 PM
I'd certainly say it of John Carver and Chris Cummins, who both seemed like pretty sharp coaches to me. I think most of Carver's "behavior" was blown out of proportion and really a result of having to deal with Mo, who is a snake.

But yeah, with respect to "righting the ship", they'll keep hiring less-than-ideal people with lower-than-average chances of success, because the same people in MLSE hire our coaches.

Mo was a puppet who was played by the same guys who are stull running this show. Winter will have just as tough a time putting together his own team as evyone who came before him, including Mo. I realize his reputation has caused people to credit Mo with all kinds of powers, but he was just a pawn out of his depth flailing desperately to hang on.

Winter is in the same position, he's just got a different accent and a lot more arrogance. And one less MLS Cup.

Roogsy
04-22-2012, 04:30 PM
I guess so. If we play shit football and luck into some results, that's better for you? I guess it must be. I can't see that making for consistent success, but guys are so desperate for success in this town they just want the shortest route there.

I'd prefer we have a form and style of higher quality than what you get in MLS's physical roughshod ways. MLS is fucking BORING, anyone who watches any other league in the world knows the overall quality of the MLS and the way most clubs play is piss in comparison. I don't think many MLS clubs are going to build players beyond the journeymen that they are with the way that they play the game. How to develop high quality skill playing a game that just abuses underskilled players and takes advantage of mistake? Rather than playing in a free flowing fluid manner that demands higher level of skill and execution?

I think we'll also be a more attractive club to European/skill players if we continue on a path of playing a more skillful form of football. Just happens we don't have a roster that was well suited but we're working through that. If you look at our roster, it was tore up and rebuild just last summer, they haven't even been together a year as a group and I didn't believe this transformation into the club Winter is pushing us to be, would happen this fast. Apparently the rest of you do, that's fine I guess.

From a CMNT perspective, we're going to give our developing domestic players a chance to reach higher potentials, than if TFC plays like just another MLS club, playing football that just doesn't compete with the rest of the world. We see it in the CCL when Mexican clubs just trounce our MLS teams. We need to play more like that, none of this physical retarded ass monkey shit football that's crammed down our throats by Garber. Eventually, when we grow and execute higher, we'll make this physical garbage look like shit, like Santos did to us and Seattle. That's what the club believes and I believe it too.

Perhaps I have more patience than most. Perhaps I'm not as desperate to win because I don't really support any other Toronto sports teams. I dunno, but I think there's a strong lack of deep breaths and looking at the whole situation. Does it not take years of player development to make players play in total sync, demonstrating high skill and total understanding of the entire form? Again, most of this roster has been together less than a calendar fucking year! Players who have shown trouble making the simplest of fucking plays at times! Ok...


Yes we have no points, but lets not pretend we haven't been inches away from having an entirely different record either. How many times has Johnson "just missed" alone? So had he buried all his chances we'd all be satisfied and everything is working? A matter of inches has nothing to do with Winter, but it is the difference in about 6-7pts.



Anyways, continue with your "i'm angry and want wins now ranting", then perhaps we can blow it up and we'll give the next coach/roster a year before we tear their heads off and carry on with threads like these.


Even if your vision of a better future for TFC did need this scenic route, what evidence is there that Winter is the guy to do it? And if that is his goal, shouldn't he then be in the Technical Director or Academy head as opposed to the guy charged with getting results from the first team?

If he can't work with players on the first team, what makes us think that he can develop the players in the reserves or the academy? We're no Ajax. We're not getting some of the best kids in Europe to train at TFC. We're lucky if we get the best kids in Toronto.

I continue to find it interesting that so many have forgiven Winter's extremely poor record on some hope that whatever he is screwing up with the first team is mitigated by the glorious results he will be getting in the long-term. Does Arena put his Academy and youth development ahead of Galaxy first team results? Does Schmid do that in Seattle? Does Sir Alex do that in Manchester or Pep do that in Barcelona? What exactly is our goal here? First team success or to produce talent that may or may not ever play for TFC???

Winter didn't build Ajax into the football factory it is. He maintained it for a while and then left under whatever circumstances he did. Their success is hardly attributable to Winter and so I have to ask why is it we think a guy who did not build Ajax should come here and build our team, let alone from a position of first team coach as opposed to a position where influencing the style and direction isn't inhibited by the very real demands of sports, which is short term results? I mean, I am truly confused how those of us demanding short-term results can be cast in a bad light. That is a fundamental aspect of a sports team! If behind the scenes a team puts in a place a system that generates longer-term results, that's great! But first and foremost it's about getting wins now!

If and when a new coach comes in, I will be making the same demands of him that I did Winter. Fix this team now and get us on track. Then fiddle with the youth and the system to ensure longer-term success. But if this first team does not get it's act together and quick, there are much worse dangers facing our long-term development than the damage of simply changing a coach.